Want Runaway Health Costs? Encourage Private Surgical Clinics
It's public hospitals that contain spending.
Grabbing for 'market share'
Premier Gordon Campbell launched B.C.'s Health Care Conversation by suggesting that public involvement in health care is no longer sustainable at current levels of funding -- and that we should consider a larger role for private insurers and private providers. But according to B.C.'s finance ministry, public health expenditures increased from 6.1 per cent in 1984 to 6.9 per cent of GDP in 2005. This is hardly evidence of a public spending crisis.
If anything, it is private, not public spending that is out of control. Under the current government, private spending in B.C. has risen sharply, from $871.40 per person in 2000 to an estimated $1312 in 2006, an increase of more than 50 per cent. Public spending, on the other hand, increased from $2433 per person in 2000 to an estimated $3,157 in 2006, an increase of less than 30 per cent (current dollars).
We have long known how unsustainable the cost of prescription drugs is, and now British Columbians are becoming increasingly familiar with the soaring costs of for-profit surgery and the insurance premiums that go along with it. Here is a taste of life in that market -- and what we could expect more of if we sit back and watch it grow.
Private surgery bleeds dollars
Across B.C. there are now 70 surgical clinics, including 23 providing outpatient general surgeries on a for-profit basis.
The owners are required by law to protect and promote the interests of their share- and equity holders, just as any other company must do. Translated into plain English, it means each clinic must yield a satisfactory return on investment to its share/equity holders.
The international experience with private surgical facilities is that they tend to charge higher prices for the same surgery in a publicly-funded hospital. Much higher.
The British Medical Journal reported in 2004, for example, that the National Health Service was charged 47 per cent more for hip replacements performed in private surgical clinics than for the same procedures provided in public hospitals. In 2002/03, a coronary bypass operation cost an extra 91 per cent in a private clinic in England compared to a non-profit hospital.
The experience in Canada is similar. For example, hip replacement surgery in a non-profit hospital in Alberta last year cost a reported $10,000. Hip replacement surgery in a for-profit clinic, according to Timely Medical Alternatives (which facilitates access to the clinics), can cost up to $21,780. In Canada's public hospital system, knee replacement surgery, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, averages $8,002 compared to between $14,000 and $18,000 in a private surgical facility.
An estimated 50,000 patients obtained surgery at for-profit clinics in 2005, according to the Vancouver Sun, paying between $700 and $17,000 each in facility fees, which in 1995 were deemed a contravention of the Canada Health Act. Patients paid the whole shot for up to 10 per cent of all surgeries performed.
Publicly funded hospitals more efficient
In Canada, up to half of all surgeries are done on an outpatient basis in large part because of technological advances, while in the United States the figure is 82 per cent. Most of the outpatient surgery in Canada is done in non-profit hospitals, but for-profit clinics are waging an aggressive campaign to capture a larger share of the "market." Most peer-reviewed studies have shown that publicly-funded hospitals are much more efficient and, compared to their for-profit counterparts, provide a higher quality of care at a much lower cost, both in terms of mortality rates and price. In spite of such compelling evidence, some provinces, including our own, are providing space and opportunity to clinic owners.
Publicly-funded hospitals have enabled us to contain the cost of health care. In fact, hospital expenditures as a percentage of total health spending in Canada are declining. In 1975, 45 per cent of all health care expenditures went to hospitals, compared to 30 per cent today. This is in sharp contrast to the already inflated and rapidly rising costs in private surgical clinics, where an hour in the operating room rose from $450 in 1996 to $1,500 in 2006, an increase almost 250 per cent over 10 years.
Zoltan Nagy, the vice-president of the Canadian Independent Medical Clinic Association, has suggested that between $10 billion and $40 billion is invested annually in for-profit surgical clinics. While that figure is probably exaggerated, whatever the amount, it's money that patients will have to pay back -- with a healthy 10 to 20 per cent return on investment on top of it. That's how private markets work.
The problem is that the public health system won't pay -- and isn't paying -- the high fees being charged by clinic operators, fees that, for most patients, are simply unaffordable. These two factors are driving owners to demand a larger role for private health insurers. Health insurance companies have already been paying these high costs in the U.S. market and, if allowed, would gladly sell benefits to those individuals (or their employers) willing to pay between $600 and $1,000 a month in premiums -- a far cry from the $54 a month demanded by the B.C. medical plan. Private insurers offer "faster service" -- not by improving the public system but by enabling those able to pay the premium to jump the queue.
As Nagy says, "There are very few people who can afford to pay out-of-pocket for a $40,000, $50,000, or even $100,000 procedure. But when you have insurance that would cover it, that's a whole different story."
Zooming private health insurance rates
The experience of Canadians with private insurance, however, is precisely what led to the establishment of a universal medicare program. The 1964 Hall Commission recommended public health insurance precisely because it avoided the high administrative costs and gaps in coverage that characterized private insurance at the time. And not much has changed since that historical victory for all Canadians.
Today, just over 30 per cent of all health expenditures are paid for outside of the public health insurance system. Half of that -- 15 per cent -- comes directly out of pocket and another 12.3 per cent is paid for by private health insurers (mainly under workplace health plans). In 2004, the Canadian government gave a $5 billion subsidy to private, employer-sponsored health insurance plans, by exempting premiums from income tax. These plans cover "extended health" services such as de-listed physiotherapy, podiatry and vision care, as well as dental care and private hospital rooms.
Private health insurance eats up more out-of-pocket health care dollars in Canada than even prescription drugs, according to StatsCan. But very few Canadians obtain private insurance on their own because they can't afford the premiums -- and, increasingly, neither can employers. The portion of employees with employer-sponsored extended benefits in Canada decreased between from 63.3 per cent in 1995 to 51.8 per cent in 2001 (last published data).
Premiums for health care are now increasing at more than double the rate of inflation -- far more rapidly than the cost of public expenditures. For workers, these benefits are included in calculations of every employer's total payroll package and are, in effect, wages paid in the form of insurance premiums. The hefty rise in premiums is leading many employers to cancel group health plans, introduce higher co-payments and deductibles or download costs to employees through so-called flexible benefits and health savings accounts.
Sustainable, and not
As many workers already know, private benefits aren't distributed equally to everyone. Private sector workers are less likely than public employees to be covered. Women are less likely than men to have health benefits. The educated get more benefits than the less educated. The young and old receive less coverage than the middle-aged. Workers in small and remote areas receive poorer coverage than those in larger population centres. That's because the private insurance market doesn't offer universal health care.
In addition, the Canadian Human Rights Act allows "certain distinctions" based on age, sex or disability where the basis of discrimination can be justified by actuarial calculations. If, for example, it is more costly to provide coverage to older than to middle-aged employees, the insurer can discriminate against the older worker. Because women live longer, on average, than men, equal benefits may cost more; therefore, insurers can deny equal coverage to women. Since those with a disability may cost the insurance plan more than other people, the insurer can deny equal coverage to people with health conditions.
Private health care, including private health insurance, is unfair and unsustainable. These are some of the reasons we opted for universal medicare in the 1960s. Not only is it a fairer and more just system of providing health care based on need, it is more sustainable.
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- A Third of Canadians Live on Health Care Margins
- Europe's Health Reforms: Hard Lessons (series)
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Booker
5 years ago
Comments on "Want Runaway Health Costs? Encourage Private S
Thanks to the Tyee for keeping the healthcare battle at the forefront of their coverage. I'm a bit surprised, in listening to the local call-in radio shows, at how little understanding many people have about the true costs of privatization. Most Canadians don't have experience with a private healtcare system and don't seem aware of how truly expensive and inefficient such systems are.
But, in addition to the economic argument, we need to make the moral argument too. Can healthcare be one area of society where the size of your bank account is irrelevant? Do we care about equality and fairness at all anymore?
And lastly, the Liberals and the privateers want to make the argument that they're just providing us with "choices" (choices which, coincidentally, make them money). Just hang on to your wallet when you hear a politician or a CEO talk about giving you "choices". It's pure marketing.
RickW
5 years ago
Now there ya go, using LOGIC to di9ssuade our beloved Liberals from pursuing for-profit healthcare! Tsk! Tsk!
Jeffrey J.
5 years ago
GREAT ARTICLE. Nothing like the facts to remove the massive spin effect of the Liberal's gobblydegook used to undermine public health care. The neoliberal attempt to dismantle one of the most admired societies in the world is breathtaking. And sad. Which underscores the contempt they have for our people. Thank you again Tyee and Charles Campbell for doing what you do.
Jeffrey J.
5 years ago
Oops, I meant to say thank you "Colleen Fuller" for this piece. But I always enjoy Charle's writing as well...
Chicken Slinger
5 years ago
Perhaps some of the media agencies can compliment stories on the growing poverty gap, child poverty, and homelessness with stories on some of the effects that a private healthcare system would have on the less fortunate and vulnerable.
Perhaps even include a few stories on prominent Canadian figures (intellectuals, industry leaders, scientists, etc.) who benefited from our healthcare system; who might have otherwise traveled down a different path as a child or an adult if a less compassionate and dependable system was in place.
macsasquatch
5 years ago
Tell me where I am misinformed, thinking inside the box, mislead,...
The crisis in health care that has been trumpeted the past two and a bit decades has been that not enough public money has been going into private pockets.
Going back to what we had before the mid 1960s and universal health care is being sold to us as a 'new idea'.
So the way it works is like this:
In public health setting my doc and nurse shuffle around some of my mortal coil, then they send the bill to health ministry. Health ministry pays $5000 for that procedure.
In a private clinic, the doc and nurse shuffle around the same coil and bill me $2000. I pay. Then they bill the health ministry and the health ministry pays them the same $5000 they pay in the public health setting.
So...this is a big step in solving the health care crisis that I described above.
Am I misunderstanding this controversy?
Diogenes
5 years ago
Am I misunderstanding this controversy?
please enter to the 'controversy' how it was engineered way before crooked-mouth was promoted to power.
There is a habit of focusing on the results and not investigating the actions set in play ,in some cases, decades before the events are seen.
To me 'controversy'occurs AFTER to fact. in other words it is the symtom being treated rather than the what created the symtom.
NoLeftNutter
5 years ago
If you torture the numbers long enough, they'll confess........
G West
5 years ago
nln- you still haven't read the Romanow report, have you?
It's a good idea to actully turn the page and move beyone the executive summary you know.
alive
5 years ago
repeat the same B.S.three times and the rubes will believe you!
that is how Gordo works it
Skifreak
5 years ago
When will the government agree that prevention is the key to skyrocketing health care costs.
Utilize the most effective form of treatment for each case.
Cover things such as chiropractic, physio, massage, naturopathy, accupuncture. Those items which are effective in their own rights, and reduce overall healthcare costs.
Make healthy food choices affordable for the average consumer - Try to eat a family dinner for 4 on $25 bucks? your options end up including McDonalds, Wendy's, Burger King etc...
IAMC
5 years ago
There are more MRI machines in Pittsburgh than in all of Canada. Canadians spend $4,500.00 per person per year on medical care. Most of that is payed from our taxes.
I know an actuary who was on a team to analyze the medical system.
Their conclusion was that it's unsustainable. The recommendation was user fees.
This public nightmare is being challenged in courts all across Canada.
It's dead, but the priest hasn't been able to administer the last rights yet, but he is at the gate.
Capitalism
5 years ago
$4,500/ yr in taxes is less than the average american pays for health insurance. It normally costs 2-3K to insure and entire family. Some employers cover these costs, where some don't.
Regardless, I don't believe in fully private health-care. I believe that we are better off if every Canadian has access to health care.
That being said, we have to find someway to allow the private sector to take part. Who are we to tell a Dr. who has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of training to become a doctor, that he can't start his own business.
I understand there are concerns that the best Dr's will leave public medicine for the riches of Private medicine. Why can't we find a way where Dr's can split their time between both systems.
This way, they can make their money (which will keep them in Canada) and rich people can get their elective surgeries.
Right now, lines are long and the system is broke. What we are doing is not working, though the commies on this site will never admit it - because they hate the thought of rich people getting to pay to get the service.
I once read a story about communist Russia. As the system was failing, people were waiting 1 hour in line-ups at the local kitchen to get their food. The capitalists pointed to the UK, where people didn't have to wait in line - but the supporters would say that "we all wait in line together". True story.
This is no different.
Booker
5 years ago
Give us a break with "communist" BS. We do not have to find a way for the private sector to get further involved. 30% of the system in now private. Did that make it 30% better?
NoLeftNutter
5 years ago
GW, I've read enough of the Romanow report to know that if you think it's the answer, you have to stop drinking your lunch.....much like this story it found a set of facts consistent with the idealogical answers it sought. Not that hard, not very good and certainly not that smart.
NoLeftNutter
5 years ago
That's what is being spent. It actually is costing each of the 13.5 million taxpayers about $11,000 per year. And for those of us that pay higher taxes, substantially more.....
David
5 years ago
There are some facts left out here, and they centre around the fact that health care costs are going up three times the rate of inflation, and the demographics are really working against us. The earliest boomers turn 60 this year, and number of productive earners relative to retirees is plummeting. I for one believe that we need to benchmark all-in costs for what the private sector is delivering, and ensure that one payer is maintained, and that the private participation is only based on lower costs, all else being the same
G West
5 years ago
NLN - no you haven't. You must be taking it intravenously.
DPL
5 years ago
http://www.strategicthoughts.com/
Check out some of the questions and lack of answers David gets around the health situation. If my memory serves, he used to be a big player in the system many years ago. He can and does dispute the story," the sky is falling" in BC around the public system
maestro
5 years ago
Hmm:
Apples and Oranges.
RE: Govt. Ltd.
Order " off the menu" of Public Services you actually pay for:
The " Public " Justice System claims " Justice delayed is Justice denied". Cases may be thrown out due to this and other complications,....as there really is no "Private" Justice system.
In " Public " Health Care , Health Care denied or delayed can result in " Requisecat in Pace R.I.P. ".
Certainly shorter waiting lists...DO YOUR PART TO SUPPORT OLD IDEOLOGY !!!! , NO EXCEPTIONS OR OPTIONS...., (its the least YOU and/or YOUR NEXT OF KIN can do...)
Now....Who's first?
switek
5 years ago
So we can use our after tax dollars to destroy our health on booze and cigarettes but should we want to spend our money to improve our health ? Not in BC. But hey, Bellingham is a hop skip and a jump away. Too bad we can’t keep our extra money in BC but that would be bad.
G West
5 years ago
And all lawyers are created equal and charge the same fees I guess.
Try again, you're still conducting with one hand.
maestro
5 years ago
Wooossshhh
Went right over yer head again, eh G ' ster...
Same gatekeeper ie GOV'T
...I thought you or others may take a loaded hint/clue and perhaps talk about other legal options available.
ADVICE/PRESCRIPTION: Quit the " carry on baggage " from the current Glavin post.
PS what are YOU doing with YOUR other hand ? Can ya take time out and actually make " A" point ?
G West
5 years ago
Because only the wealthy can afford the gult-edged service there is, in effect, a private justice system.
DO a little research - especially into the native "populations" in our prisons.
I'm not going to carry you any longer.
5keptical
5 years ago
So, exactly what is the price that the market will bear when your health is on the line?
Well, everything you have, of course.
maestro
5 years ago
Still waiting G West....
ADVICE: you really should lay off the use of the " class warfare crucifix " as an attempted defense to " what ails the system " whether it be health care, legal, or otherwise.
That is no miracle cure, and your arguments are flatlining.
PS ... but thanks for "carrying moi "? I think? However, a better diagnosis is that this seems more like a talk show with " NDP rhetoric archives " meets "NDP on life support" on Line One "
G West
5 years ago
maestro
you'll be waiting till hell freezes over. I don't have serious conversations with people who aren't serious folks - bye!
maestro
5 years ago
Warmed over ideology can be as " serious ", relatively speaking, as anything else.
It can be more of a parody than Borat.
Perhaps review the story/parable of " The Goose that Laid the Golden Egg " . Everything has it's limits, except rhetoric from certain factions which often are NOT part of the solution, but morseo part of the problem and ultimately delay anything approaching a solution.
I suppose being further Taxed to Death will reduce line ups...
BTW My Doctor -neighbour used to be an executive on the BC Medical Association, and gives more useful insight.
RickW
5 years ago
IAMC:
Now let me get this straight. 10,000,000 taxpayers splitting the cost of healthcare is not sustainable, but a single person paying his own medical care is.......?
Care to have your actuary explain how that works...........?
RickW
5 years ago
skeptical:
That of course, is an understatement.........
Zippythedodog
5 years ago
I know a guy who says the moon is made of green cheese. The recommendation was grilled green cheese sandwiches.
Look, studies in the Lancet and the New England Journal of Medicine have shown that single-payer, publicly administered health care systems are significantly more efficient that systems like they have in the U.S. I'm sure these scholarly journals are not as reputable as that actuary you know, but they seem like nice journals, so maybe we should humour them.
And for all of you who think the U.S. system is so much better, how come health outcomes in Canada are so much better? How is it possible that Canada's child mortality rate is lower and average life expectancy is higher than the U.S.? Hmm?
maestro
5 years ago
I don't percieve this issue to be an all out attack on the Public Health Care /Medicare system. It has been around for over 40 years, and so entrenched in the Canada way of life that likely hell will freeze over before Medicare will become seriously challenged by another viable option, dare I say Pro "Choice" ??? ...
BC's ICBC has been around for about 10 less years than Medicare, and the likelihood of it disappearing is remote, though it does not have a monopoly either.
The Public Health Care sytem is effectively one big Insurance pool, is it not? ....with the risk dispersed amongst a far broader pool of participants(ie Canadian citizens) who pay into it in the hopes the medical services will be there if and when they need it. The premiums are also referred to as TAX dollars.
What is so hard to understand about that ?
The list of what was once covered by Medicare has changed...hence we still pay EXTRA for them even if we access the Public System.
Choice vs Non Choice ...and who decides ?
Some people are seriously stuck in old ideology and U.S. strawman arguments.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Excellent question: After deep and searching analysis, the only conclusion I can come to is that single payer universal health care results in some extremely stupid people with some extra money they are fond of flashing around living much longer lives in Canada.
Irony abounds.
Choice tied to a dollar sign is not choice. When it comes to health it’s criminal.
Zippythedodog
5 years ago
Yeah, choice. Like choosing between food and health care. Or bankruptcy and full recovery from a heart attack.
How about choosing not to whine about "high taxes" (which are high only in comparison with the U.S., not in comparison with civilized countries) and rather embracing the fact that we have a pretty good health care system.
This "choice" argument is more libertarian claptrap: it assumes people have the means to actually make the choice. Most don't, and making such a nonsensical argument about "choice" is willful deceit.
It's clear Canada's health care system needs fixes. There's nothing wrong with innovation. But expecting the private sector to play a major role in that fix -- the private sector exists to serve profit and nothing else, after all -- ignores the obvious facts.
IAMC
5 years ago
I am one of the 10 million taxpayers that share the burden of rising health care costs. Therefore I have the right to question the efficiencies of the system. I don't appreciate being told to buck up and shut up.
Whats so bad about a small user fee for those that can afford it? Make it optional. How is this unfair?
It's kinda like the state issuing every Canadian a car, one model for all. As the car ages it's gas mileage gets worse and worse all the time, and we are not allowed, by law, to go out and buy the car of our choice.
This is ludicrous and you all know it, but it's all about protecting Public Sector Unions. It's sick and nearly dead. Politicians have been give the terminal diagnosis. But they are to gutless to do anything about it because all they care about is getting re-elected.
But go ahead and perpetuate the myth, but you are not doing your fellow Canadians any favours.
maestro
5 years ago
Zippy:
Re:" Libertarian claptrap "
Lets cut out the baloney....Public Sector and Gov't is " THE Largest Corporation" ..... P-E-R-I-O-D.
We, the Citizens, are its Shareholders... PERIOD.
You seem to think this is a registered charity staffed by volunteers. "L" "O" "L".
It's EITHER the (i) Private - PUBLIC Sector or (ii) the PUBLIC - Private Sector.....depending on the degree of overlap.
Too many inmates in behind the scenes who see their own Ox being gored.
Maybe we need more Oxes to provide some competition.
Even Old Jinny Sims and BCTF crew can't stop competition , we call them Private Schools...and line -ups to get into those, and puhleeze don't rant upon serving only the "priveleged edu-clientele",... that is pure B.S...its based on cynical and jaded customers/ clientele caught in the middle of ideological pissing matches.
That basic starting point seems to escape many who either dig up straw men,...or have more on order.
If the line - up is freed up by those who seek " choice " and thus benefits those who " don't have choice" ( whatever that really means .. typical ideology ??? ), the seekers of eternal ideological equality is, effectively, EVERYBODY LOSES...versus EVERYONE WINS...
Maybe we need a quasi-voucher system to bridge this.
That's why ideology , on the soapbox, continually asks " IS this microphone ON ? ", when it is continually also being tuned out and the dial changed ..again a choice ...and again, based on wrong diagnosis.
The brain
5 years ago
Examples?
We have small user fee's. Its called provincial healthcare insurance/tax. But privately, these aren't small fee's and not everyone can afford them. Ever had your teeth done?
But 30% of our healthcare is private and in these areas such as doctors who work under private contracts, do you see a public option for them? And you are missing one very critical fact when it all goes private. The market is demand driven. Take hip replacements for example, where the demand for surgury is high. Do you believe that if the public system goes fully private in hip replacement surgury, that given the demand that's out there for such surguries, that the cost of such surguries won't skyrocket? As long as the demand is there, private healthcare can charge what they like. This was what we had, by the way, before we had public healthcare.
Are you suggesting we should clone ourselves and then rape the clones for bodyparts?
The way I understand your car analogy, it is...
So what you are saying is that labor doesn't need to be represented, that there no need for labor... are you daft?
This also makes no sense. One of the things that has been missed concerning inflation in healthcare both public and private, is that the tax base in BC has skyrocketed since 1990. Government revenue from royalties, taxation expanding population tax base and federal equalation has collectively increased government revenue to nearly 400% of what it was 16 years ago. My point? WE CAN AFFORD IT. There is no healthcare crisis unless government revenue shrinks and it would take a major recession to create it.
I believe you are the one that's disillusioned here. You should read the story one more time, if you ever did at all.
Excellent, informative article, Colleen.
IAMC
5 years ago
Don't expect us that are calling for more choices to go away based on The Brains stupid rebuttal to my arguments.
We won't stop, no matter what we have to do. The Charter is with us, that's already been proven.
So hop into your Kia, if it will start, and burn oil, waste gas and continue to pollute the debate.
G West
5 years ago
Ron, DO you have any idea how many 'communications' folks your hero Gordo employs on Order in Coucil appointments? Do you know what an order in council appointment is?
Brain, that's the flavour I've been missing, welcome back!
The brain
5 years ago
IMAC:
If you like the U.S. healthcare system, by all means, nothing is stopping you from moving there on a permanent basis. And the charter of rights that gives us all a right to healthcare... lol, if all you can do is bring up the charter and namecalling, IMAC... You should probably join the NCC and swirl with the rest of the U.S. puppet plant for U.S. market share multinational sellouts. It's where you're brainwashed ideology is best suited.
Calling me stupid... simple affirmation that I do indeed know what I'm talking about! Thanks the confirmation, pal.
:-)
G West:
I've always respected your opinions, for what its worth, even though I won't always or often agree with them on past and future threads. Your verbose nature sits well with me, offering simple proof that you are passionate with your convictions and want to make a positive difference.
This opinion of mine, will not change, of course, since I see no signs of you changing any time soon. I see your will and goals as no different than mine, although we differ on the plans at times in how to succeed in reaching these likeminded goals. In short, we are on the same side, even though we often disagree. And I don't mind that much. Debate in type is a record of where our strengths and weaknesses lay. And to that end, the end result is a healthy one, I think. Ah, honest introspection... self examination... humility and the identity of regression/growth. Aint nothing wrong with it. Stings at times, but so it should, lest we have lost our nerve and pulse.
Anyways... an eagle exhalts itself and builds a nest in high places. The eagles domain is the air (communication) and the eagles message comes not from pride produced by its own found freedom, but the truths that the eagle finds in such high places... and the exhaltation of where the eagle finds such freedoms... from communication and that which the eagle feeds from. We are what we eat, after all. You know what happens to an eagle that remains grounded for to long? Stay in flight, brother, its where you belong.
G West
5 years ago
You think I'm verbose?
G West
5 years ago
Just kidding dude! Right back at ya!
North of Hope
5 years ago
Here is an interesting article found in The Prince George Citizen, "Solutions to the health-care crisis" by BAREND GROBBELAAR, MD. The address is
http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/news/current/n_empty.php?sid=1354227
I don't agree with everything he says but he does offer some interesting alternatives. I do believe that the government, esp. the Campbell's Liberals have mismanaged and underfunded the system. We seem to have the doctors and nurses available for the private system so if the money was spent on the public system rather than the private system, we could get the timely care we need.
RickW
5 years ago
Alcibiades:
Then the US sysstem is working perfectly. In our society, wealth = intelligence. Thereore, if the wealthy live longer, it promotes intellignece in the race. It' much the same as banishing poor people to some island somewhere, so "normal" people can get on with living......
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Rick W says, voice dripping with irony.
The problem is, it seems to me, so deucedly straight forward that the US system and all its faults are there creating the impetus behind an increasing move away from continuing to make the fatal mistakes Ron and others (including Gordon Campbell and his cronies) want to induce into the system here.
I'm not sure living longer and intelligence are positively correlated - alas. There’s that other maxim we've heard ---> 'There's no fool like an old fool.'
RickW
5 years ago
"A fool and his money are soon parted...."?
FYI:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/GoBC/index.php?showtopic=1383&view=findpost&p=11962306
G West
5 years ago
Merci boucoup!
IAMC
5 years ago
brain; do you own anything? A car, a bike a DVD player, milk anything? Or maybe 1/10,000,000th of the healthcare system?
What give me the right to control how much you spend on any of these items?
Your arguments are out to lunch. I am not calling you stupid, I was referring to your response to my argument that we are free to make our own choices, and if you don't want to give me those choices, I will turn the Charter on you, the way so many special interest groups have already done.
The Charter isn't only for lefties, it's available to all Canadians.
Imagine if the same system as we use to deliver health care was used to deliver salami to Nanaimo next year?
There would either be a glut or a shortage. Russia tried this system and now they are subject to delivering radioactive isotopes to their dissenters.
There are more MRI machines in Pittsburgh than in Canada. I demand my rights. I want out of this system. Do we not have the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness that the Americans have?
We are no longer subjugated to a socialist doctrine so easily sold to Canadians, we are free.
Thanks to PET.
You created your own worst nightmare.
G West
5 years ago
Bye Ron.
I understand the Americans are still accepting immigrants from Canada - even for the tiny number of Canadians who might actually want to live in Pittsburgh.
Just don't come back when you have cancer and can't afford an oncologist to treat you.
Bye, bye.
If you ever knew anything about community, you've forgotten, and I don't want you stay another minute in mine if you're so unhappy here.
You're free. Free to go.
YOU and Gordon Campbell are my worst nightmares and all the communications staff in the world can't turn that story around.
Bye, Bye.
Have you seen the piles of garbage our system is delivering to China?
That's a real nightmare - but it sure is a lot of stuff.
And those happy Americans? Sorry pal, the happiest people in the world don't live, and don't want to live, in the United States.
Pursuit is definitely the right word.
Good bye, we won't miss you!
Jay Currie
5 years ago
"Zoltan Nagy, the vice-president of the Canadian Independent Medical Clinic Association, has suggested that between $10 billion and $40 billion is invested annually in for-profit surgical clinics."
Er, I suspect you mean million. A year ago the total amount paid for health care in Canada was 141 billion.
RickW
5 years ago
IAMC:
No we do not. We have "Peace, Order, and Good Government". You also "own" 1/10,000,000th of the military. You want out of that as well? Then there's that portion of the RCMP, and that much of the roads, and uh, more.........
siamdave
5 years ago
- some straightforward ideas on the whole situation from Green island - http://www.rudemacedon.ca/lgi/gi-healthcare.html
RickW
5 years ago
Here's the biggie:
but governments LIKE big business. It makes life so much easier when collecting political donations, when there is only ONE CEO to promise the world to, instead of hundreds......
Umslopogaas
5 years ago
Consider that doctors are trained in public universities funded with public money and then do their internship in public hospitals funded with public money. If they want to practice in private settings then they should first have to reimburse the public for all of the training that they are provided with from the public purse .
alive
5 years ago
I will second that motion!
My Doctor decided to become a "walk-in clinic" leaving all his patiens stranded.
I am sure it is more profitable for him, but he can no longer claim to be a family doctor, and families have to look elsewhere.
RickW
5 years ago
Yes, I am waiting to hear when Dr Brian Day, president-elect of CMA, and ardent advocate of private medicine, will step up to the plate and on behalf of that august organization, offer to fund medical training, to relieve the taxpayer of this unrecoverable cost.......
Bucky
5 years ago
My wife works at a major hospital in the lower mainland, as a staffing clerk. Since the creation of the regional health boards the numbers of middle management have exploded. None of these drones provides any direct healthcare services but they are all getting paid well, in most cases they make more than nurses. Meanwhile the hospital has neglected their temporary and on-call staff so that many if not most have taken other employment. This has left the hospital with insufficient temporary staff to cover nursing and staff absences sometimes resulting in cancelled surgeries and longer wait times.
Why aren't the Libs looking at the poor management of the hospitals and health regions to try to save costs instead of just throwing their hands in the air and claiming the public system is too expensive. Could it be that they secretly want the system to fail to help justify their version of private health care? All these quasi-public agencies like the health boards and BC ferries operate with little or no scrutiny but the provincal government doesn't want to look to close for fear that their ideology of devolution is shown to be more expensive.
DPL
5 years ago
Hey Bucky, why would Gordo and co. look at the poor management in hospitals. The boards are stacked with his friends.
The ER here in Victoria was over whelmed again last week. No beds , too many customers. what did the board do?othing. A memeber of our family is a LPN and does 12 hour shifts for about six or eight days in a row. The nurses could work all day everyday if the could stand the pace.
Tigana
5 years ago
Tommy Douglas himself would be pleased with Colleen Fuller's writing on health costs in B.C. Thank you for this carefully researched and thought-provoking article.
Dee Bee
5 years ago
Dee Bee
I think it's pretty obvious to everyone by now that Campbell and his bunch of sheep hate Public Medicare.
If you were Campbell what would you do to p--s everyone off enough that they would be anxious to try anything to help solve the problem?.
I think most of you would plug up the emergency rooms so badly that everyone would be screaming about hours and hours of lying on stretchers in hallways waiting to get medical attention.
Think about it!!
zalm
5 years ago
Carole Taylor was caught musing a few days ago about what was wrong with the Health Authorities that they were so unable to do their work without up to 30% more money.
I'll give you a clue Carole - same clue anybody who really knows the health care system has been giving you for a dozen years.
The NDP tossed the Ministry of Health's responsibility for operations of the HEalth Care system and created 5 Health Authorities, then 6. Instant duplication of services. Not a bright move, although it was done to try to improve accountability, but done with a measure of incompetence and typical NDP infallibility. Honestly, those people have to learn to ask some questions of themselves sometimes.
The Liberals tossed the Ministry of Health's responsibility for building health care facilities and devolved the responsibility down onto the health authorities. More instant duplication of services. Also not a bright move, and one that runs counter to Liberal neo-con thinking.
Then the Liberals multiplied errors by rewarding big inefficient hospitals They reduced their competition by shutting down smaller hospitals, most of which were largely more efficient in favour of rationalisation of services, a model which works well in the auto or widget industry, but does not work in health care where every individual consumer is a different model of production.
Private health care, of course, recognizes this, and seeks its niche by occupying the space left by the smaller hospitals that largely focussed on the 80% of medical care that is easily and economically done in small facilities, close to home. This was the model that the Harcourt government started the Ministry of Health going down in 1992, the one that was so badly perverted after that.
Bucky's right, above. With roughly 53,000 health care workers in 2005, down from 75,000 in 1998, we're delivering more health care, but doing it worse. But the total staffing at all 6 health Authorities is over 130,000 now, well up from when they started, and that despite losing 9000 hospital workers to contracting out. What are these other 80,000 people doing for you and me?
The old Ministry of Health had approximately 3000 employees. The Health Authorities now performing the same functions are now estimated to have 26,000 staff performing the these duties. The BC Fiberals have failed Econ 101 time and again. Should I chalk it up to incompetence, or is there an ulterior motive?