Layton lost me. In the words of a non-NDP friend, he comes across "like a fifty gallon drum of lanolin." Smooth, scripted and opportunistic, Layton presented a stand on Afghanistan that I find morally repugnant and ideologically driven and intellectually dishonest. The only thing I can think of that might win back my vote to the NDP is if the party made legalizing marijuana a top priority. Glavin's correct again. For the first time in 30 years, I will be voting Liberal in the next election, rather than NDP.

The NDP, once the party of change, turned out to be the party of the same. The BC NDP certainly have proved that, with Harcourt, clark, et al., just the same as the Socreds and Liberals!

The Federal NDP ha been infected by self righteous windbags, promoting their special interests. The NDP, including the wet noodle James and the national windbag Layton, have completely lost the public's interest, yet their ego's will not permit change, real change.

To cell with the established parties, I'm voting Green!

Dion raised the bar for many political parties (including provincial parties in Quebec). That is a welcome change.

The PLC is still *very* weak on democratic reforms (including media) and decentralization. But so is the NDP.

One wonders if Dion will give up his dual citizenship?

In my view, ALL political parties are to right of center,with reference to the past , and within that starts a mini -differentiation.

Some will claim to be more left or right than the other.

That's why the NDP is often left like a deer in the headlights.

With all due respect it is time to unite the progressives. The Liberal-Democratic Party of Canada is what we need. Anything else is simply allowing Harper and the Bushies (now that's a name for a band) to remain in power long enough to turn Canada into neo-con nirvana.

"Trench warfare with the Greens' Elizabeth May for the vast, uncommitted sections of the hippie vote?"

This really isn't fair to the Greens. In a by-election in traditionally Liberal London North Centre, May left the NDP in the dust (26% to 14%). The constituencies that put the Greens in second place behind the Liberals were the overwhelmingly middle-class students of the University of Western Ontario, Canada's preppiest campus, the old-money and professional neighbourhoods of Old North and Woodfield, and the affluent residents of new suburbs (London's hippie community is negligible). The Conservatives and the NDP engaged in American-style negative campaigned aimed at the Liberals and the Greens respectively, which likely contributed to their poor showing. Granted, by-elections generally result in protest votes and are not necessarily indicative of broader trends, but the rise of the Greens, and their ability to pull from all parties is further evidence of the growing irrelevance of the NDP.

tedward, I disagree, we don't want a two party system with little choice. I like that I have a choice between the liberals and a really democratic party (NDP). We all know there is a difference - and it's nice to have choice. Even if I voted Liberal I would be happy to know the NDP still has MP's pushing on a more left agenda.

You see, Terry, the ideologues just don't get it. Vote-splitting? Wot dat? They're
gonna go pink and green as usual. All your words (too many, actually) are for nought.
Hug a tree or save a whale. Live on reserve. Grow a beard. Write poetry. Make better use of your time, for lecturing the
evangelical lefties is futile.

The big question around here is how to get rid of that seatwarmed over, useless Reform fossil, Dick Harris, in this Pr.George-Cariboo riding, the good unionists keep on returning to power in union towns?

Ed Deak.

That is true. That blue collar, beer-swillin' lunch bucket brigade has smoked itself off into the sunset casket. Unfortulately, the NDP has had a hard time realising that.

The elites in Quebec hate Dion. They hated Chretien, too. These are the people who dream of an "independent" Quebec with them at the helm, of course. Dion is the perfect challenger to them.

This is an excellent article. The Smilin' Millionaire doesn't stand a flyin' you know what of ever forming a government. Voting for him will only put Herr Harper back into power.

Vote Carefully.

Mr. Glavin, reading this article I can't help but think that this is less about why "we" should not be voting NDP and more about why you think NDPers should be voting for your boy: Dion.

I'm not going to bother with a point by point rebuttal, but there are a few things I feel obliged to mention.

1. The Liberals have never given the NDP anything. I can't understand why you'd expect that an opposition party was supposed to gift Mr. Martin more time in office.

2. Stephen Harper values politics over ideology; this is why he is Prime Minister and Preston Manning never was and never will be. I would be stunned if while in office he managed to anything that would let the "neoconservative" label actually stick to him, as he knows the vast majority of the electorate wouldn't stand for it and he'd be tossed from office. I don't really find Harper that scary and having lived in the US, I think fear is an amazingly poor reason to vote for anyone.

I mean, if I were to be voting on the basis of fear I'm far more afraid that saying the Liberals are a renewed party is more smoke than substance. How can someone without intimate knowledge of the party really know not even a week after they've elected a new leader? I'm far more afraid the Liberals are still the party of Paul Martin than I am Stephen Harper is a poor politician.

OMG! Layton is smooth and scripted!!!!

I can understand not voting for someone because you disagree with their ideas, but because they are good public speakers???

When the workers of Canada realize that the Liberals and Conservatives are two sides of a tarnished coin (one can dream) they'll put the NDP or some other party for the people in power.

A vote for the Liberals is simply a vote for the same policies as Harper without the "Christian values". When the Cons and Libs get elected they don't overturn each other's economic platforms which says it all. Two sides of the same coin.

If the NDP is destroyed it makes us the same as the Americans, two parties fighting over the swing voters on the centre-right, All policies for both parties will be designed to attract those voters as the Left will have beed reduced to irrelevance.

Now if that's the way people want to go, fine, democracy will have spoken. But if you really do believe in left-wing values then you shouldn't marginalize yourselves. No one will care what you think if you vote for Dion.

We can vote for any of the parties mentioned here and very little will change. Canada is being delivered to the US no matter who gets elected. The elite family rules and the fundamental issues of banking and control of the money supply are not even on the radar screen. Our government is a subtle, clever dictatorship with a window dressing of democracy, ie farcical elections. As far as I can tell, the only party that tells it like it is is the Canadian Action Party, and they have no money and very little organisation. So more of the same.

Voted NDP a few times, Rhino and Green. Sayed home once. All were "protest" votes.

Harper has got my Protest so far. Sooner is better. I would vote Liberal tomorrow if the candidate was slightly warm and learned to walk erect

The NDP, both at the federal and provincial levels, is being misled by some shadowy backroom boys and union economists, who decided that the Party has to "move to the centre". Whatever the hell that means?.

I wrote to Layton, asking when the NDP starts shouting from the rooftops about the sale of Canada through the NAFTA, NAFTA plus, SPP, the NAU, the planned and negotiated elimination of the Canadian dollar?

He replied that MP Julian asked a question in the House.

Sorry Jack that's not good enough and if the NDP is not ready to inform Canadians about the conspiracies to sell the country, the vast majority of people, even NDP members, have never heard of, I don't know who will ?

I'm waiting for a miracle, when the NDP will stand up and start moving, instead of dangling.

The NDP has some great talent and hard working MLAs and MPs, but I feel, they're being held back, only to bring up and debate only side issues.

Like in '68, when NDP candidates were instructed to leave the question of the FTA to the Liberals, and we got it with 43% of the votes.

Ed Deak.

At a family function last night, we pow - wowed about the Federal Liberal leadership convention.

We know some delegates who attended this past weekend convention . One family member who is best friends with one delegate stated that this crowning of Dion appeared to be long ago decided..it was not necessarily a dark horse, run -up -the- middle "fluke" .

In hindsight..., in my view at least, this makes sense...the Federal Liberals don't like surprises, its very likely part of some master plan, and also with some pre-arranged backroom deals. Dion is a Teflon leader- candidate ....at least "so far".

Mr. Glavin:

Kindly go to a book on Canadian politics. Compare the party in power pre 1935 and post 1935.

Then look at the "left wing" party in the U.S.

Then look at the Liberal's record in power in the 1990's.

Then maybe you'll understand the utter stupidity of left wing voters voting for the Liberal Party.

The fact Terry Glavin ignores the implications of Dion's connections to the backroom ‘boyz’ of the Martin/Campbell/Emerson/Marissen cartel is the most interesting thing about this piece. No mention anywhere in the article of THOSE members of the Dion ‘team’

Another cynical marriage of convenience.

The fact Dion’s popularity has taken a bounce at the conclusion of more than a full weekend of media fawning over the achievements of the same Liberal party that defined political corruption for the last half of the 20th century (I’ll give the title for the first half to Quebec’s National Union and Maurice Duplessis) is neither unusual nor unexpected. In the back rooms, the same con men whose collusion gave us pee wee as Prime Minister are still in control.

No honest man believes the Liberal demise had anything to do with Jack Layton – the stage was set for the Liberal defeat in 2006 by the Liberals themselves. I didn’t notice any signs that the rifts in the party over that ‘record’ got any airing at the convention.

Not very progressive of them Mr Glavin.

I thought you were all about 'dissent' Terry – but this is just another example of a tired old liberal (I don't think you ever were progressive) going along to 'get along'. Really, really tiresome…and done here and far more succinctly every day by your ally – working man.

Glavin writes:

I don’t think so. All those strong, young, smart, hip delegates couldn’t find more than 500 folks to debate democratizing the party with them and, when it came time to vote, they left the PARTY in the corruptible hands of a delegated convention. Dig up a few more busloads of ‘liberals’ and maybe they will find a way to run Justin Trudeau in Vancouver Kingsway. That’s the kind of thing Liberals do really, really well. Proud Terry?

Despite my comments above, I think the NDP is an indispensable party in Canada, and it makes an incalcuably important contribution to Canada, even if the NDP never forms a government. Layton's leadership is just symptomatic of a general drift away from clear thinking on the left in Canada, with the left's response to the threat of international terrorism a prime example. Sidetracked by the dead-end street of "identity politics", blinded to the rest of the world by George Bush's crimes, the Canadian left is losing influence with the general public just when it is most needed.

Mr. Glavin: you're surely a Liberal, but you don't seem to be much of a progressive.

As garynick points out, the Liberals have always managed to run from the left and then govern from the right. Their only progressive policies resulted from CCF/NDP initiatives in the provinces and popular pressure - certainly not from within the party. And those were decades ago and have been undermined by subsequent Liberal governments.

"It was an election contested by a Liberal party that happened to be scandal-rocked, in disrepute, decay and complete disarray. It was deeply divided, and utterly dysfunctional. The Liberals were left leaderless and in worse shape than they'd been since the Conservative Prime Minister Brian Mulroney wiped the floor with them in the free trade election of 1988."

It's true that they picked up more seats than the NDP. Unfortunate, really. But you gloss over a couple of important points. Why were the Liberals in disrepute and decay? Because they governed as the Natural Party of Canada, without regard for anything but their own power. Their arrogance and internal power struggles had more to do with their fall from grace than Harper's political savvy or Layton's unwillingness to prop up their regime.

And where was Dion during all this? Oh yes, he was serving as a handpicked (more or less appointed) Minister under Slick Johnny C. and Paul Martinet.

The individuals this party has attracted- Emerson, Dosanjh, Rae, Stronach - are power-hungry and morally bankrupt. They are not interested in policies, but in personal advancement.

These are the politics of the Liberals in Canada.

As we speak, the Federal LIEberals are out there with their political equivalent of long rifles and hunting for Special Interest Groups , and, like a French waiter...taking/giving orders " a la carte" ...(or is it allah cart...w-h-a-t-e-v-e-r).

The Federal LIEberal DNA never has changed and never will change...or else they wouldn't be LIEberals.

PS Was Chuck Darwin a LIEberal.....or did he simply take notes ?

If everyone who is completely dissatified with the status quo, ie; Bush's favorite puppet, Harpo or the Liberal party, all vote Green or Canada Action Party perhaps we could see some progressive change. Adolescent awkwardness might result were one or the other to actually gain power but it would actually be progressive change.

Of course, this may never happen but with some help from the real left we might actually see the Greens have a real say in Parliment.

As for the selling out of Canada to the US... we could all take a lesson from Ocxaca. The ONLY way to force political change, and to save our sovreignty is for the masses to take to the streets.

Thank you apathysux. It is about time that somone mentioned what really matters, more than the parties, is the existence of a social movement for change. This is what we really need to hold the politicians feet to the flames. They may promise this and that but we have to force them to make reforms.

Can we please move beyond anachronistic ideas of "left" and "right." Blue-collar jobs are no longer the mainstay of the traditional worker in Canada. Look to the Starbucks employee, the Superstore employee, and the millions of managers our economy is made up of. Can we not have a political party which champions progressive taxes, environmental issues, while maintaining a business friendly economy which employs and provides a wage for many Canadians. I think the Liberals under Dion may meet these criteria. Trying to put them under a jar labeled "left" or "right" is ignorant and counterintuitive. Our world is moving beyond such distinctions. Please, let us continue the debate, but please, lets elevate our language, and leave these terminologies behind.

.

Sorry, Martin is the one who refused to give, and as a result he is toast today!
Glavin, nice try!
Us voters happen to have a memory, and the liberals remind us once again that they will say one thing, and do (tax) another.
Just because you love them, is not much of a reason for us to vote them in.

We have five political parties in Canada (Conservatives, Liberal, Greens, NDP and Bloc), but we have an electoral system that is designed for a two party contest. As a result the NDP is grossly underrepresented in proportion to its share of the national vote. So it is not quite fair to criticize the NDP for its lack of effectiveness. The electoral system also gives us majority governments that rarely obtain a majority of the votes. So there is a need for reform of the electoral system. But that is the future.
For the next election, if the goal, as it should be, is to defeat the Conservatives, then, in the ridings where the Liberals are ahead of the NDP, the NDP supporters should vote Liberal, and in the ridings where the NDP is ahead of the Liberals, the Liberals should vote NDP. It may not be palatable, but this is the reality of the electoral system. Otherwise competition between the Liberals, the NDP and the Greens will ensure the victory of the Conservatives.

And can we please dispense with the notion that the Greens are progressive? Adriane Carr was adamant that the Greens were not considered a "left-wing party," as if that was a bad thing. Federally their new leader has revealed her spots as wel. She is decidedly anti-choice - calling a woman's rights over her own body "frivolous".

It's all well and good to have strong environmental policies -- which the NDP most decidedly does -- but you cannot deal with the environment in a vacuum. Any policies which address environmental degradation must take into account the effects those policies have on the people. That's what is truly progressive; the Greens are not.

This honest and provoking article precisely articulates my own views current Canadian politics. Kudos to Terry Glavin for voicing what so many of us on the Centre Left believe.
Over the past two years or so, Jack Layton's glib, deluded, and utterly self-motivated policies have succeeded in alienating scores of former NDP supporters (many of them, incidentally, in the upper echelons of the party.) It is to Jack Layton that we owe thanks for a disbanded federal childcare programme, it is to Jack Layton that we owe thanks to for Canadian reneging on Kyoto, it is to Jack Layton that we owe thanks for the essential collapse of the Kelowna Accord.

Yes indeed,WHY should any progressive person in this country vote for Jack Layton and the NDP?

Unlike the Liberal Party, the NDP, despite Layton's efforts, does not attract this country's younger politically inclined individuals. As pointed out, roughly a third of the recent Liberal Convention was comprised of youth voters. This is hardly accidental; the NDP lacks dynamisn, it does not truly embrace the ideas of younger people, and it utterly fails to inspire.

The NDP is in a place where it cannot go back to the glory days of the past, because that will push away the majority of more centrist voters, and it cannot move towards the future, because this is where the Liberal party is situated.
My view is that over the next decade or two, perhaps less, the NDP will slowly dwindle away to nothing but a small party practicing soley the politics of protest. They will never, ever govern at the Federal level, and if Jack Layton truly believes that...then no wonder he was cozying up to Marc Emery!

This upcoming federal election will be one of the most important in Canadian history. As Glavin states, Stephen Harper is the most reactionary and rightwing Conservative this country has ever seen at the helm. The progressive centre/centre left must unite as a bloc in order to defeat Harper and his band of henchmen.

34 years ago I turned 18 years old. Since that time I have always voted NDP. As someone who was on the left i believed it was my forgone destiny to do so. Over the years however I have seen Liberals who in many cases were at least as far to the left as many Dippers get elected. Peaople with a social conscience and who have spoken out on issues considered important to us lefties. People like Lloyd Axworthy, Warren Alman, Shiela Copps and a variety of others. For what seems like decades the NDP has acted as if it has a strangle hold on all this is progressive and good in Canada. And yet what are the facts. Certainly in some areas of policy they have been the voice of change. In others it could be argued that they pull out the same old postions and tout them over and over again. The NDP which claims to be a party of Democracy bans its members from Joining another Federal party even though a person might choose to belong to a Provincial NDP party but wish to join a different Federal party. In my experience for example I discovered that the Federal Liberals have an aboriginal wing that I as a person of aboriginal decent may wish to join and or support. In addition aborginal issues are mostly Federal and thus it makes sense to support the Liberals who over the years have developed fairly sound policy in this area. Couple these facts that the NDP has no true support base in most areas of Canada. In Quebec the Bloc occupies the postion of a left of Center Social Democratic party and often votes more progressivly than does the NDP. So Comrade Terry it is a timley question that you ask. Why am I voting NDP? During the time of Martin I doubt I would have even wondered aloud why but with a new and remade Liberal Party and a new leader it is indeed time to re-evaluate voting. And with us under the gun of the Neo Cons perhaps its time we face our real enemy Harper and his band of Bush clones. And just perhaps we can hold the Liberals to a centerist and progressive base. It is true that often they have spoken from the left in oppostion and the right when in Goverment but a small change in voting patterns may change this. Much as the leadership of Dion could bring intersting changes.

G West:
Although I share your concerns about-

and think this type of riding level thuggery that leads to "Spidermen" committing "break and enter" and sleaze bags afraid to even face their so called constituents like David Emerson, I can't hold the Liberals in such high regard as criminals as you apparently do. And I would really like to see Mr. Dion address this issue right away, though am too realistic to actually expect anything to happen.

However - with this statement, you lost me.

I'm sorry, but political corruption for me, in Canada at least, for the time period in question, was defined by Brian Mulroney's reign of terror, larceny, personal enrichment and outright selling out of Canada. I am not only amazed that he isn't incarcerated, but that he had the gall to sue the Canadian taxpayer's for "alleged" damage to his non-existent reputation. Maybe the Jaw that walks like a man is a "made man" as well as someone closer to us here on the left coast. I mean bags of money between the Jaw and an indicted German fighting extradition is just normal "honorable" behaviour for the man that almost single handedly destroyed the "real" Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, I guess. If I can talk someone into giving me a bag containing say $300,000 can I then ask people to call me the Right Honorable?

I have no problem with a sincere effort to unite the left and I'll welcome the day the establishment of the Liberal party goes over to the Conservative side like the David Emerson and phony Gerrard Kennedy clones they really are.

But, I see no signs of that happening. As long as folks like Tom Lal and Sophia believe this incarnation of the Liberal party - as enabled by the self same Basi Boyz, Mark Marissens, Christy Clarks, and various Bornman(n)s and Campbell relatives and hangers on is any different from the utterly corrupt Paul Martin gang I guess there won't be any real change.

I'd happily support an NDP/left Liberal FORMAL coalition where the NDP got several cabinet seats in a possible Dion green government...until we get some kind of fair democratic electoral reform maybe it's the best we can do.

But until Stephane Dion looks at who his 'friends' in the backroom actually are, I won't be holding my breath.

All you folks are doing is showing how utterly desperate you are.

Wishful thinking and phony ideals of the green Liberals will not beat Stephen Harper in the next election.

The NDP threw-out Buzz Hargrove, the head of the CANADIAN Autoworkers Union. Meanwhile, the NDP is heavily influenced by executives from the United Steel Workers of AMERICA (U.S.A.) and numerous other AMERICAN-headquartered unions.

CTV's W-FIVE recently broadcast a documentary showing how some of the NDP's AMERICAN-headquartered union friends have crushed local worker democracy in Toronto. The very popular local president of an AMERICAN-headquarterd construction union became suspicious of AMERICAN east coast mafia types eyeing up their $1.5 Billion union pension fund. The local president hired a private investigator to check things out. The investigator made videotapes showing union officials meeting up at night in a graveyard with known mafia criminals - including some who had been convicted of multiple counts of murder. The popularly-elected local president was then forcefully removed from his job and replaced with an unelected head office cronie. So much for the DEMOCRATIC part of the NDP's AMERICAN-headquartered union friends.

The written transcript of the W-FIVE investigation can be found at http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061124/wfive_borderdrug_061124/20061126?hub=WFive

A video link for this investigation can be found on the right side of the page. Total running time is 19 minutes, ten seconds. If you want to capture and save a copy of the video, you can do that with Streambox-VCR (freeware) or WM-Recorder (sells cheap on ebay sometimes) or similar applications. Search google.com for Streambox-VCR to find it. With some versions of Streambox-VCR, you may have to save short clips then re-join them later.

I have a lot of respect for the objectivity and professionalism of W-FIVE's producers. Several years ago, I helped W-FIVE do an undercover expose of other American criminals who were robbing Canadians blind. I provided lots of background material, suggested a specific angle of attack, and put the producers in touch with dozens of scam victims. There was only time on the show to tell several victims' stories, but the producers emphasised the importance of having the names of other victims on file to be called as defence witnesses in case the fraudsters launched a defamation suit. Because I provided the names of numerous victims, W-FIVE's lawyers gave them the go-ahead to be extremely aggressive in this particular expose. A certain fanatical NDP supporter would no doubt sneer at each victim's testimony as "anectodotal". But in a court of law, such testimony is called "evidence."

In light of heavy American mafia control of Canadian union locals, it's pretty scary to consider that the NDP, the BQ, many Liberals and even a few Conservatives are pushing a bill to give these criminals even more control of our economy by banning replacement workers at the federal level.

I'm not anti-American, by the way - just anti-criminal.

Sophia said:
"It is to Jack Layton that we owe thanks for a disbanded federal childcare programme, it is to Jack Layton that we owe thanks to for Canadian reneging on Kyoto, it is to Jack Layton that we owe thanks for the essential collapse of the Kelowna Accord."

Can you elaborate on these claims? They seem pretty far-fetched to me. The one I'm most knowledgeable on is the childcare program, which the Liberals first promised in their 1993 Red Book. After winning that election, they failed to do anything whatsoever with this promise. More than a decade later, they decided to revive the issue by cynically timing a bill so that its debate could make them appear progressive next to the Harper Conservatives.

Layton shouldn't be held to account for the hypocrisy of the Liberals. I'd say their timing on childcare and the Kelowna Accord was about managing perceptions more than actually enacting policy. And how about blaming Harper, who actually snuffed them?

For the record: Layton supports a federal childcare program, supports the Kyoto Accord (and actually trying to meet the goals, not just sign documents like the Liberals) and supports the Kelowna Accord and Aboriginal rights.

Sorry, but where exactly did I state that I have any appreciation for Clark, Campbell or Marissen? Do you have some kind of a comprehension problem?
Don't make leaps you can't substantiate, it makes you look like an idiot. Or is it just that putting up a strawman argument is the best you can do?

I frankly loathe the aforementioned indivuals, and I wish they could be stripped from their power and influence in the Liberal Party. However, at this juncture, my chief priority is to ensure Harper does not get elected.

rkewen
Well, my friend, roll back that time machine to the 1950s and a certain individual called the Minister of everything – called C.D.Howe - and you'll get my drift; then slide forward a few years to the nudge-nudge wink wink understanding between Lester Pearson and the Americans over Bomarc Missiles.

Up a few more years to the Carter Commission on Taxation (set up during Diefenbaker's time - report delivered on the cusp of the change between Pearson and Trudeau) and how it's real progressive changes were deep-sixed by Bay street and the banks....
Mulroney was bad and not very professional about it. But when it comes to paying off the guy who brung you to the dance - nobody, NO BODY, does it like a Liberal. And with the same backroom gang who sold off one of BCs major assets - I can show you a 2001 report that confirms that - for little more than a 25 year tax holiday for the purchaser I think Dion needs to find some new friends.

Fast.

Er... it was called the last federal election, which Layton forced due to his personal delusions of grandeur. Need I really say more?

Sophia-

I'm afraid you haven't been paying attention. If you'll actually look at the folks behind DION's win you'll find out it's exactly these same people who put together the 'deal'in the backroom that brought DION to power.

Just read all the material and the links, here at Tyee - and in the election blog - and you'll learn a lot.

If you want to look off site you'll find a lot more.

Sorry to disabuse you.

Sophia said:

I would like to second the above!

You can't be serious? You actually believe that shibboleth that a January election would have had different result than a March one. I've got a bridge for sale - send me a tender.
Martin promised a vote immediately after the Gomery report was in, remember?

Not a single thing another month or two in Ottawa might have produced would have survived the same meat grinder that Harper's used on child care and the Kelowna accord.

Do you believe in the tooth fairy too? With analytical skills like that, the NDP is better off without you.

@GWest,
Yes, I am well aware of that, and it is one reason among many that I was hoping Bob Rae would gain the leadership, in which case Merrison et al would have been neatly stripped of their influence.
Again, however, you are throwing in unrelated points, I never said I believed the above trio had nothing to do with Dion's win. How many strawmen do you keep in that shack anyway?

As far as looking at this site goes and learning something.. Yes, this is an excellent, but I don't know if I learn anything so much as read differing perspectives, I'm already quite abreast of Canadian politics and social issues.

Just look at the facts folks. The same dirty fingerprints that brought you Gordon Campbell are all over Dion.

Actually, it is fully possible the election would have had different results had it been held in March, things were slowly beginning to turn.

However, believe what you will, I can't be bothered to debate with people who are so far up Jack Layton's posterior that they are practically asphyxiating themselves.

Have a nice day =)

Sophia
And that's one of the reasons that Bob Rae didn't win.
These aren't straw men - Marissen negotiated the deal between Kennedy and Dion that got the whole thing started. He was on CBC radio on Monday morning crowing about it. All the same people behind the political machine that supports and sustains our BCLiberals were there at the convention getting their hooks very tightly into Stephane Dion.

You people are the ones who believe a leopard changes its spots.

As I said, If Dion proposes a Formal coalition with the NDP and the Greens to defeat Harper I'm all for it.

Several small conditions though:
Sever all the links to BCLiberals and fellow travellers; engage a completely new PR team for the election; sever all Liberal links to big business and ex-officio members of the party; an agreement in advance on policy and cabinet post for the Greens and the NDP if Harper is beaten and prior agreement on the main areas of policy once in power.

First on the list: electoral reform and getting the queen off our money and a real Kyoto program.
Other than that, I’m open to suggestions.

SO, given those conditions, I'll support your movement - otherwise, no way.

That, I'll happily provide a polite reply to. You are right, Marissen did not want to see Rae win, and neither did Kennedy.. It was a wonderfully happy marriage of convenience.
Another reason Rae did not win is because Iggy, perhaps owing to political inexperience (and probably also due to the rift that had come between them) did not concede he had no chance after the first ballot. Had those overtures that began to develop between Rae and Ignatieff occurred much, much earlier, we may have been looking at a different outcome.

But Sophia, that's not the point. Why do you think Marissen and the backroom boys didn't want a Rae win? Because he's not part of the backroom gang's approved list.

Of all the candidates, Rae is the most experienced - far more knowledgeable than Dion. He's just proof, like Hazen Argue and Ross Thatcher and Ujjal Dosanjh and a dozen other progressive people over the years who’ve turned into nothings when they became Liberals.

I notice you're not willing to adopt my suggestions, something that really would mean something and not just more of the same.

You can't dance with the devil and not get burned and Dion is in bed with some very nasty western Canadian guys and girls.

By the way, what have I said that hasn't been polite? I've been blunt because I think the material and the circumstances demand it, but I haven't been rude.

There was another accusation about delegate fiddles leveled at BC politicos by the Ignatieff campaign during the run up to last weekend’s party too. Don’t know what came of it – no doubt the Marissen/Clark team got it expunged from the record too – these guys run a tight ship and all the action goes on UNDER the table.

Ignatieff and Rae had a chance to work together to win the day for Ignatieff - you may well be right about that but the move had to come before the 3rd ballot. Bob Rae, basically still a decent man, couldn't bring himself to do it.

My view.

Have you ever checked the names and titles of the politicos who sit around Gordon Campbell?

This is the kind of management style you're suggesting is good for Canada:

Martyn Brown - Chief of Staff, 'declared' to have status as Deputy Minister;
Lara Dauphinee, Deputy Chief of Staff and Exectutive Assistant to the Premier;
Tom Syer, Deputy Chief of Staff, Policy Cooridination and Issues Management;
Jay Schlosar, Director, Issues Management;
Mike Morton, Press Secretary;
Rishi Sharma, Manager, Media Monitoring;
Jeff Hanman, Senior Coordinator, Issues Management.

None of these folks are professional civil servants. They are Order in Council Appointees and there are lots and lots more of them in Government - BC Liberal style.

Think maybe you're being 'monitored'?

Cycling Commuter:

Interesting comments.

It was reported recently that the pro- NDP BCTF was playing rather heavy handed with its own internal Union representing its own office staff...on such issues as starting wages etc. One wonders why they, the BCTF, even dare take a chance with the sheer optics of such initiatives.

Maybe the monopoly of virtue has competition, or it never was there and the cracks are now showing re: the NDP and their support .

Interesting re: the US Unions and the infiltration into Canada. Perhaps this is taking advantage of the dysfunctionality we see (ie in the ranks of the NDP), and this is now becoming a bastardized version of NAFTA. Was the NDP's UNoffical role as keeping this potential in check in past years?

The logical extrapolation of this, based on past history in the U.S. , is WHICH Canadian political party will they, the US based unions, and any organized crime cling -ons , be courting ?

Well, Rae had a lot of support from the old guard party establishment, it was roughly divided between he and Rae, so I wouldn't say he had no support, I see your point though. However, a lot of people have suggested this is partly why Rae and Ignatieff ultimately lost, it was a sort of "grassroots movement" from people who wanted a departure from the those party elites, and Marrison etc. capitalised on this sentiment.

To the first, that is why I was hoping Rae would win. Where the second point is concerned, I suspect this is rather subjective. The sad reality is that there exists a significant gap between the politics of protest and the politics of government. I was once a part of the former, and a dedicated NDP supporter, at both the federal and provincial levels. Now, like many in BC, I vote NDP provincially and Liberal federally.
Stephen Harper and his cronies, among other causes, have brought me to my present position.

I've never really had a particular issue with having the queen on our money, if that is what you are referring to. Beyond the fact that it isn't a burning issue for me, in my view there are more critical concerns out there. Where Kyoto is concerned, I'm not sure, realistically it could get much better than it was. Sure, it could, but again, I think we come down to the rift between idealism and what can actually be implemented.

I wasn't referring to you.

No arguments from me on any of those points. Whether or not Rae couldn't bring himself to do it, who knows really? Another issue is that nobody, but nobody, saw Kennedy's move coming as soon as it did. Everyone knew Dion and Kennedy had a deal, but people figured Kennedy would stay on until the third ballot.

Merriam-Webster online says this:
the word you've entered isn't in the dictionary.

What do you mean maestro?

Oops! I wish this thing had an edit function. I meant to say, "between he and Ignatieff"

OK G West..I'll " trail blaze " etymology-ality speaking, and patent "dysfunctionality"

" Dysfunctional" is the root word.

Jack Layton didn't seem to care...why should you ?...or should ol' Jack watch his back ....hmmm...

That's the problem with the Left....stuck in the past...never evolving...(not that I am even remotely implying that you are on the Left, G West.)

Peace Bro'

I know all about folks like you. It's a bad mistake in my view. Tommy Douglas always put it best. Voting for black cats or white cats never does anything for the mice.

Personally, if any part of the NDP is failing these days, its the ones in Victoria - have they all moved to Florida for the winter?

That's why I'd only support the Liberals if there was a real coalition between the two parties and real progressives in the mix ended up with some influence and some cabinet posts.

In such an eventuality - if we can't get electoral reform (and even pee wee seems to have forgotten that promise) then the best we can hope for is a coalition which will eventually lead to the withering of that part of the Liberal party which actually belongs with the Conservatives - like what happened in Britain in the first 3 decades of the 20th century.

To me, it's far wiser to get the most possible NDP members in parliament, by hook or by crook. The only time we ever make any real progress in advancing the cause of the vast majority of Canadians have been when the NDP had a lot of power and could force the Liberals to do the right thing.

Moving votes to the Liberals has never resulted in better government and, given the way I know Stephen Harper is going to manipulate the media and cater to special interest groups it is going to be very difficult to limit him to just a minority government - let alone defeat him in the next election.

Oh, and please don't let my remarks a few lines above imply that I'm a Blair supporter - New Labour isn't really Labour at all.

That would be copyright, maestro, not patent.

Cycling Commuter, 1953 is calling you. Your US-union buddies don't vote Left. If everyone in Canada who belonged to a union had voted NDP since WW2 the NDP would have had a lot of majority governments.

As it is, its non-union guys like me and GWest that support the NDP. Polling over the years has shown that most union guys support the Libs or the Cons.

Sorry that doesn't jive with your McCarthy-esque worldview.

Contrary to the Glavin's article above, the NDP serves a crucial function in the governing of our country. Sure, they won't FORM a federal government in the foreseeable future. But any party insider COULD (but wouldn't) tell you that that's not the party's real goal these days.

See, the NDP is a party of strong ideals. And because the party generally doesn't get elected, those power-hungry gangster-sellout-types that prey off the Liberals' and Conservatives' control of OUR money tend to overlook the NDP (an exception might be the late 90's BC NDP). So the NDP remains the only party that remains true to both its ideals and to the concept of a united Canada.

Remember the War in Iraq? That one that the US and UK are now desperately trying to get out of? Remember how the NDP was adament in parliament that we refrain from joining Bush's Freedom Train? Remember how the NDP MP's protested in the streets with hundreds of thousands of Canadians across the country to keep us out of that one? It's breaking into civil war now, and without the NDP and grassroots organizing, our soldiers could be in the middle of it.

Remember that "Star Wars" missile defense system? Remember the NDP leading the arguments against that? And rallying support across the country? And the hundreds of thousands who hit the streets to protest? And finally, with immense public pressure, the Liberals FINALLY consented to listen to reason (and science)?

And did you catch it when Elections Canada contracted out the census to Lockheed Martin, the biggest arms manufacturer in the world? Lockheed is necessarily tight with the Pentagon and under the Patriot Act, could have been required to give all Canadian census information to the FBI/CIA. Guess who took up the cause in parliament and brought the census back to Elections Canada? Right, the NDP.

How about Afghanistan? Why is Canada there? What's the achievable goal of that mission? When can we declare "we've won"? Cause to me it looks like a slowly developing Iraq/Vietnam. Oh, and the NDP were against that from the start too.

Well Dion's going to fix the environment, right? Only - all the biggest environmental groups have endorsed - even commended - the NDP's environmental policy. So Dion can be champion of the country by... stealing the NDP plan, changing the title, and touting it as his own. Then he can brag about creating jobs while being environmentally responsible and investing in generations to come. Hurray for Dion.

See, the NDP has an important role to play in the Canadian political system. While all the other parties are jockeying and dividing the country up between their respective friends, the NDP quietly goes to work thinking through the really, really tough problems. Then they circulate their arguments throughout the party membership and relevant organizations to rally popular support and if the issue resonates, there ensues a grassroots organizing effort. And if the issue REALLY resonates, the Libs and Cons in Ottawa hear the hundreds of thousands of people marching in the streets in protest - a protest demanding the government to make wise choices that benefit Canadians, y'know, like the NDP does.

So maybe the NDP doesn't have the raw influence or the political savvy to play with the big boys. And maybe they'll never form a government. But maybe, just maybe, that's a damn good thing for our country. Maybe it's better to have idealists who work WITH Canadians FOR Canadians.

We've already had the scenario where all the NDPers vote for a seemingly leftwing Liberal. His name was Chretien and I remember how all the NDPers were giddy over his book Straight From the Heart.

So what did Chretien do? He ignored all those NDPers that voted for him and instead he and Martin adopted the right-wing platform of Preston Manning. Why? Because the NDP was dead in the water, all their support had gone to the Libs so there was no reason to give them a thought.

Chretien and Martin didn't spend any of their majorities worrying about childcare, child poverty, healthcare (which they cut) or natives or anything else of interest to the Cdn Left.

They "discovered" those issues only after they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar and they needed to control the damage.

If soft-Left voters want to run back to the Libs and support Dion by all means do so. But first why not make sure Harper is actually worse? Because although the Libs claim the sky is falling every time a Conservative gets elected, Harper is not that bad compared to the Libs.

Frank, I can't agree with:

Harper with a majority is a nightmare, judging by the way he acts without a majority. I hesitate to even think of him under the impression he actually had a mandate. Kind of like his litte buddy/hero Commander Codpiece with the political capital of a stolen election, the uniter not divider guy, you know the one.

Until more people pay attention we're not likely to get much in the way of government.

Libs have talked "left" and talked "green" for a long time. However, they walk firmly on the right-hand side. Never mind the fact that they are corrupt and shady!

The NDP has lost my vote... I can't tell where they stand on things these days. Layton has done some whacky things lately.

I'll be voting Green. There is no ambiguity in where they stand on Afghanistan, the environment, etc.

Interesting that the tone of Glavin's latest is less inflamatory than earlier stories.

I live in a constituency with a Liberal MP who believes in private medicine. He has also been a major critic since joining the Liberals (after leaving the Alliance/Conservatives). He believes the main answer to homelessness is more jobs. He also takes an "enlightened" position on land mines and same sex marriage.

I wonder how many other "progressive" Liberals and Red Tories also support any progressive policy provided that it doesn't involve higher government expenditures or taxes or threaten any of the power structures in our society.

Maybe it is something in the air in Ottawa, but it makes those breathing it in light-headed at best. I had a lot of hope with Layton working with the other progressives in the House in keeping Harper from tearing apart all that kept us a cut above the clueless south of the 49th, but the only thing gained from such hopes is to not hold such great expectations. Harper has been able to screw us over royally because of a lack of opposition - we have given up peacekeeping for war; signed a pact with the devil over the environment; foresaken women and children; done away with transparency in gov't activities by limiting access to news media; and have come another step closer to epitomizing mindless consumers awash in our own metabolic waste products. I'd hate to think Harper is so capably destructive with a minority gov't - who've sat primly less than a year at the helm. I want a gov't who will get Terasen back from Kinder Morgan; who will make us sustainable AND self-sufficient; who will invest in BOTH our sustainable future and intellectual productivity; who will lead the world in finding non-primitive solutions to complex political-economic problems that won't be solved with mass bombing; who will find our way back to the period of enlightenment where an an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure. Where art thou, Layton? You said the NDP were the only ones who will protect us from the nasty neocons, well, here we stand bewildered and burned and there is a new guy in the House, a littly geeky - not too cheeky - and entirely competent (based on Layton's own opinion of the chap). My question, like Chretien's, is can we also call him Steve?

Avicenna
Time will tell. I'm very suspicious of the guys who paddled this 'Steve's' canoe through the rapids last weekend. They've gone far too long without a good bath for my taste - the Gucci shoes and the green scarves don't hide the rotten smell.
Or make up for the whispers in the hallway.

Why do we always expect somebody to come along and save our bacon? Especially when the 'saviors' have such a Panglossian reputation for real self-criticism.

That convention surely didn't convince me.

Remember, when Chretien first appointed Dion to Cabinet, he wasn't an elected member either…shades of Michel Fortier.

One question that Glavin asks is this: what does the NDP stand for that the Liberals do not?

Although a few posters have offered vague references about the Liberals being essentially the same as the Conservatives (a position I disagree with), they have offered nothing specific or substantial.

I'm left of centre on most issues, but I would like to see a set of tangible policy ideas forwarded by the federal NDP that say, "Look, we really are different..."

Then I would know what to do at voting time. In the last election, I voted for the candidate I felt was more likely to defeat the Conservative... and I was glad I did.

Davey boy
Where would you like me to start:
1. The Liberals had a chance, (even considered it, according to Ralph Goodale) to deal with the criminal tax evasion of Investment Trusts. These tax dodges were outlawed virtually everywhere else in the western world and when Goodale had a chance to end them (outside of REITS - which are permitted in most jurisdictions) he did nothing. Not very left wing in my view. The NDP position has been very clear - all along.

2. The tax system in this country is basically a Liberal creation. We are always bemoaning our lagging productivity in Canada. Want me to explain one reason why? Have a look at this provision of the Income Tax act:
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tp/it484r2/it484r2-e.html

Read it very carefully and not the enactment date. This is not the kind of device that stimulates successful and productive business - it's a facile dodge which rewards failure by allowing ordinary taxpayers to reduce their taxes by pouring more money into failing enterprises.

The NDP would, I suspect, turn back the clock and adopt a tax policy like the one suggested in the report of the Carter Commission on Taxation (a commission appointed by a Progressive Conservative by the way).

3.Child Care - the best child care program in this country is in Quebec and it's been around for 10 years - did the Liberals suddenly wake up last year when Paul Martin found himself leading a minority government? That program was the work of a left-wing separatist government called the Parti Quebecois. Credit where credit is due. The NDP have been pushing the Quebec option for years and years.

4. Aboriginal affairs - do I really have to point out to you that the 3rd world conditions on many reserves stretch back more than a century - a century when the left has never been in power in this country. Suddenly, again in the shadow of an impending election, Paul Martin got religion. Need I say more.

5. The environment. I'm not going to bother with this one - the Liberals smoke and mirrors and talk on this file are so far behind the direction the NDP urged the government to take that I can't believe I have to say anthing else.

6. Secondary education. Again, self-evident - I think you're in the education business yourself so you'll know the NDP record (in provinces where they've been in power) is far more friendly from the point of view of post-secondary fees and grants - even though it hardly made up for the shortfalls of federal cutbacks.

I could go on, but someone else probably wants a chance - The NDP really is different and that's why the big corporate money never supports them.

It's the biggest clue of all - look at who the Cons and the Libs run with.

errata: should be 'note' the enactment date and not 'not'. sorry

Oh, of course, it's the Liberals who got Canada into Afghanistan too - remember - another big difference - though you'd never know it today by listening to them. Another difference with the NDP. Oh, and foreign aid, that too. Paul Martin promises things when he's in thrawl to Bono and then fogets about it the next minute.

I can't believe this article. When are we ever going to learn that the Liberals AND the NDP talk left, and act centre to centre-right?

As for Glavin, that's another issue. He should be well known by now as a rightist , of vacillating/equivocating degree, from his other scribblimgs here-, though on Palestine, he can scarcely conceal his fascist-like zionism. Which is okay by me, so long as one knows where he is coming from. I'm not disputing his right to be what he is.

But then to expect anything of any ideas difference or depth out of him... is naivete.

My own view is that there is need on the left, at least that part of which is by now coming to finally see through the sham that is both the NDP and Liberal, to commence a major effort to create a whole new approach to politics and democracy better suited to "our time"-, by first the obvious, I think, which is eschewing all elite "vanguardist" or party politics, and turning to the politics of the street and social movement creation. That is where our "power potential" has always really resided, with the mass, and not in either the parliamentary "loyal opposition" or even "governing party" niceties. (The Left has always been at its most influential and powerful during precisely those times and social situations where the mass is seething, in motion, and ready to engage in the various forms and around the various issues of "class conflict". In the absence of that, the left, like the current labour movement and NDP is nothing but another polite if showy erudite society.

Which is not to say that there is anything wrong with either particular role, opposition or governance, but merely a question of where and how we see ourselves doing it, and beholden to what interests. Either we oppose and eventually govern from and within the positions of strength created by people/the citizenry, organized and in motion, challenging status quo power, or we are nothing but actors in the role and on the stage set for us and controlled by the elite ruling class "Big Money Democracy" system in society. Which by now there is no real excuse for not understanding the nature or reasons for the choice, having had a long opportunity now to observe the opportunist behaviours of both the NDP and Liberals, both whom made the latter ruling class serving choice, apologising for status quo power and brushing the crumbs from that table, to the floor for the rest of us to scramble and quarrel over.

Glavin typically gets nothing right. Here, he surprises even me, and gets his question at least half-assed right-, purely by accident. (Which likely is about as much as we can expect from this Zionist shape shifter.)

Why either vote for the Liberals, no less than the NDP, short of sheer laziness and wishful thinking, when there is a potentially way more powerful instrument of both opposition and ruling power available, be it but seen, understood, organized and set successfully in motion?

I saw that, too. I was always surprised to see how the NDP would kiss butt to American unions. In fact, the major reason my workers resist the union organisers is they don't want their dues and policy made in the USA.

Buzz Hargrove is a man with guts. Not only did he give his American UAW masters to the finger, he did it to the NDP, too.

And, don't listen to me either, just look at this study, I'm busy for the rest of the day:
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2006/12/06/tax-policyalternatives.html

CIBC just announced a yearly profit of more than $2 billion and investors aren't happy.

The greed mongers won't be happy until they have it all.

Nice friends working man.

Kory:

No they weren't.

The NDP was hardly a pioneer in the environmental movement. If they were, the Greens would probably not exist. The records of provincial NDP governments - from promoting fish farms and clear-cut logging in BC, to uranium mining in Saskatchewan, to hog barns in Manitoba - have been appalling.

What's the difference? They are both talking heads for the same puppet masters.

You amaze me, G. You go on and on about Marissen/Dion and then with the same mouth, concede that Marissen personally wanted Rae or Iggy to win. Can you provide any other name besides Marissen from BC's list of Lib crooks that was directly involved with Dion at any other time in Dions career?

Tom Glavin's piece is an excellent summation of certain percieved realities. And the fact is that while there are hardline NDP doubters that the Libs have changed at all, and hardline NDP supporters who see the Libs/Cons as no different, the NDP is soft on Con criticisms.

I'll say it again like I've said it before on past threads... Layton don't think quick on his feet when taken out of script, he isn't percieved as a good and decent person with his conduct in the debates (moreso, he's the same as everyone else), and his morbid facination with the attacking of Liberals while ignoring the far right is at best, strategically moronic. He quite simply steered towards opportunism reactionary (negative) popularity and away from the push for progressive social reform.

The NDP needs its own democratic reform within the party. It needs to rethink using negative ad campaigns. It needs to rethink the notion of hijacking minority governments that had progessive proposals for near future reform and by that, I mean the native Kelowna accord and public daycare, of which, if they would have waited a few more months to allow such legislation to pass, their own agenda would have been furthered.

Sophia is right in the sense that the NDP hijacked their own initiatives in these areas. The Lib legislation in enviromental spending wouldn't have made the timeline cut with Martins election timetable. But the other two reforms in daycare and Kelowna accords would have. And that to me reeks of a lust for power at the cost to the public.

The NDP should have thought this through far more carefully than they did. Would it have benefited them to work with the Libs a little while longer while the Libs continued to slide in the polls with Gomery? Duh!!!

This NDP leadership is out of touch with what they were supposed to be most effective at doing. Influencing the direction of the other two parties to get real progressive results for the average Canadian... doing whats right instead of whats temporarily popular... and they are most definitely going to pay the price.

I want you all to think about this very seriously in terms of leadership conduct during the debates. Are leaders supposed to reflect the social conscience of their supporters? Yep. And did Layton come accross as being anything other than an ignorant fingerpointing blowhard that attacked the Libs (for stratigic votes) while leaving the Cons alone? Nope. Seriously, who would you rather have as PM? Layton, the rhetorical angry monotoner who cries crooks every 5th word, or Dion, an unknown to the average voterr... Latyon makes Harper look good. Is that supposed to happen? And lets face it, Harper is a good politician, but his ideology is utterly inept and irresponsible. Christ, its Republican. So where should the voter go?

Glavin asked a really good question. Why should we vote NDP? Because they have better candidates in some ridings? Check. Because they've had a reputation for influencing social policy? Check. But beyond this... if the NDP leader isn't either replaced (and it won't happen soon) or change to a nice guy that is willing to look at progressive reform in his own party, with a major change in strategy of going after the Cons far more than they have, the G Wests and Franks can cry NDP "honesty" and "theres no difference between Lib and Con" all they like (except of course, when it comes to badmouthing them of which lion share is for the Libs). The end result will be a major reduction in popular votes and seats for the NDP. If feedback is any indication of where the voters are leaning on this "lefty" site, they would heed these words or keep shouting nonsense while watching a federal NDP collapse.

Fiat Lux, excellent post as usual.

Coyote:
I can't remember for the life of me when it was, the last time I've disagreed with you. It goes back to the spring or earlier. While I do agree with your summation of Glavin as a whole, with this piece in particular, Tom is on the mark particularly in concern to the reactionary voter sentiment to Dion's newfound leadership. However realistic or not, I believe he's got the finger on the pulse of present public perception. The headline is fitting. The summation of NDP history is apt. His conclusion, pointed to a question that forces us to seriously examine the past present and effective future of the NDP is also on the mark. Aside from a touch of Lib bias, which I believe is also a reflection of a shift in voter sentiment, it is a well done piece.

Otherwise, I agree with you. The NDP party needs to self examine itself far more seriously than it is now. It needs some good old fashioned honest introspection and self examination and if that doesn't happen the party doesn't commit itself to whats best whats best for its nation once again over whats best for itself, its popularity and representation will shrink.

Beacon Hill's points should not be overlooked. The NDP wasn't Green until two years ago and is largely adopting the Greens platform. Where they have a chance for major changes environmentally in terms of provincial power, it hasn't surfaced into the results environmentalists had hoped for.

In the end, it becomes a balancing act between economical forces (which can't entirely be blamed on multinational's and Republican interests, it also starts at home) and the environment. Clearly, the Libs are adopting the right talk but Glavins bias shows in terms of equating talk with results. The Libs history of saying one thing and doing another is a matter of historical record.

My own mantra chant concerning politics won't change from what its always been. Vote for the best candidate, not the best party, in your riding. Vote with your heart as well as your brain. Do not be shy in serving the public in any capacity (John Turners recent words weren't wasted on me). But above all, vote for whats best for Canada/province/municipality instead of yourself. And what this means above all, is, don't vote neocon. The Republican Harper simply has to go. His latest U.S. asskiss? Scrapping the wheatboard.

brain, so you don't like Layton, fine. But he doesn't ignore the Right when he attacks the Liberals. He is attacking the Right when he attacks the Liberals. As for not being the nice shy leader you think is holding the NDP back, again, I repeat to you, the NDP's worst performances were under the nice Audrey and Alexa. Layton is the least of the NDP's problems.

Again brain, you wanna conveniently forget that the Libs had 3 majority governments, plenty of time to bring in all that great legislation that the dastardly NDP prevented. The Libs only "discovered" those issues when it was clear the country was hopping mad.

Yet Layton tried to work with the Libs and Martin refused. Too bad, the Libs got turfed.

But as usual they claim the Conservatives are evil kitten killers to scare the NDPers into voting for them. Well, healthcare was better under Mulroney than it was under Chretien and Martin and I know that if I had needed the social safety net the one that existed under Mulroney was superior to the one that existed under the Libs.

Anyone catch todays VANCOUVER SUN ( DEC. 7/2006 ) headline and read the details of the story ?

Talk about B.C's Carol James and Co. gonna be played like a fiddle, the Cat vs. the Mouse.

And the federal Libs just discovered "green" this week.

As for the provincial Libs, how's Campbell doing?

maestro,

So you're the guy still buying that rag?
Only about 2.5% of the population still reads that paper you know.

The Greens are basically where the NDP was 30 + years , aren't they ?

All the Green's are are a more coalesced portion of the once blended NDP power base. The whole is made up of the sum of the NDParts.

Maybe the NDP's problem is they are evolving with the times, but its also costing them, a NO WIN Catch -22 situation

No problem Frank...You and G West and a few others fill in the OTHER 97.5 % of the news, objective versions only of course.

(And I don't even have to tip you or G ster at Xmas ...unless ya want to give out your PIN number).

PS You are telling us that G West votes NDP(your earlier comment)??? ..surely you jest.

Glavin raises some interesting questions. Some of those questions have been asked before. There is an old saw that the Liberal party campaigns from the left and governs from the right. So if people who traditionally vote NDP are going to consider voting Liberal, Mr. Dion will have to convince them that his government will not lurch past the centre post once it forms a majority government. While Mr. Dion has raised the possibility of many reforms, I do not think he has gone past the point that used to be described as "Labour-Liberal" or "left Liberal." Between that point and the centre point of the NDP there is a considerable margin. I am personally of the left Liberal persuasion but most of my friends are more properly NDP.

Michael Posluns.

Huhhh? where did I say that?

He replied that MP Julian asked a question in the House.

Sorry Jack that's not good enough and if the NDP is not ready to inform Canadians about the conspiracies to sell the country, the vast majority of people, even NDP members, have never heard of, I don't know who will ?

And a great question this is too, of both the Liberals, who led us surrepticiously into this, signed the papers and formally delivered us to the US, much under "leftist" Cretins AND "rightist" Martin "the rich old boy's" watch, while the NDP has remained silent, co-operative and refusing to fight.

So regardless of our disagreement Brain, which we are certainly allowed to have :-), I suggest there is more than enough blame here, for the current straits the country is in, to go around to every man jack status quo party "vanguard" in the country. And one may, as I actually did the last election, vote the man instead of the party (so long as it wasn't Con)-, but the overarching reality is that man will still be subject to the disciplines of the "party whips". And will regardless of all best intentions, unless he is more principled than 99.9%, possible but not likely, not be able to escape the party line and behaviours of the party elites to whom he is beholden. (And it's Liberals which have been the definitive "governing party" standard of the country more than any other, over all the years of my life, and are responsible more than any other, for the situation we are in, especially concerning the GST, GATT, NAFTA, NATO, NORAD, the current US Empire war of "terruh" in the Middle East, and now, as the final capper, the North Amerikan Union.)

So you will simply have to tolerate me taking a different position than yourself here. :-)

The betrayal of the country is near complete, the public never more in the dark, as Fait correctly points to, and they are ALL responsible-, as I would point to.

A "best candidate" within the current system cannot be outside the class and party straight jackets it puts on one and all through the status quo party system, period, in my view, however "nice" he or she may be. (And that even goes for Corky Evans, whom I otherwise admire most of probably all politicians known to me.) It's a trap and destroyer of "good intentions" and "good men and women".

So, how I deal with the next election is turning out to be a struggle with me, over all others. For it is truly decision time. And I am 90% the way to defying the religious belief of the current political correctness, that you vote for the lesser evil at all costs or you don't have the right to a say.

Horseshitt there too. I'll have my say anyway. :-)

Like I say, it is past time already for the emergence of a whole new politics. And I mean really new, not the same old, same old in drag, not even in the ways the Greens tend to equivocate and waffle about on cracked ice about it.

I've about decided that those who don't even bother to participate in "the con" voting game are actually more the likely right afterall.

Yeah, and we're free to differ and argue about that as well. B-D LOL.

Without conflict, disagreement and the struggle over views of reality and interests, and programmes, and sometimes even bodies :-), there is no creative process generating new ideas and policies. There is only the current vacuum suck of the wishy washy middle, coming from all the parties-, except maybe the Harper Neocons right now-, for which we, at least they and me, :-) are anathema to each other.

1) two party democracy = Tony Blair = John Kerry = George Bush (= BC politics, by the way).

2) The federal NDP are elected in rural British Columbia, Northern Ontario, and Nova Scotia. Urban big money Liberals do not represent these people.

3) The NDP earned nearly double the Bloc Quebecois vote. The NDP has been the most under-represented party for a long time. The NDP could threaten to bring down a minority Liberal government to get some form of pro-rep.

4) Many mature democracies have far more sophistication in coalition building than Canada. An NDP influenced coalition government is far superior to the two party democracy that would exist without its existence.

That's my bias.

the Brain:

What the heck is a perceived reality?

Baloney - examples, please?

more of those 'perceptions'. Examples please - just because you perceive some of this stuff doesn't make it true.

Oh come on! The NDP can hardly afford any campaign adds.

daycare and Kelowna accords
were both a achieved, with the NDP's help, remember. Jack could have cut Martin loose months before when Martin was busy making a new home for Belinda Stronach

What are you talking about? The debates were a total embarrassment to all the candidates - not just Layton. Too many backroom boys trying to figure out what spin would work best.

I already answered that. The reason the election happened when it did was Paul Martin, he looked at the polls and decided a January election would work in his favour. Like almost every decision he made while he was Prime Minister, it was wrong.

Not his fault, there are a lot of crooks around some of the Liberal ones are still in jail.

You amaze me, the Brain:

And the Liberals are known for their thinking? Like I said, the Liberals are responsible for their own fate - trying to blame the NDP for Paul Martin's incompetence is just lame.

At least he has an ideology, unlike Liberals who pretend to be all things to all people and steal everything for their friends under the table.

Quite possibly true. If you don't want to vote for the only truly progressive party in the country that's your business. But don't expect the Liberals to do anything but facilitate their friends in the banks and big business while they pretend to be all things to all people.

Oh! and that business about nice guy leaders, you might to want to ask Paul Martin about that, he looked like a nice guy when he was singing along with Bono didn't he; but he sounded pretty much off key when he reneged on the promises he made to the G8 in Edinburgh.

What I can't understand is why the Canadian voter can be burned time and a again by these guys and never learn a lesson about what they're all about.

Pathetic!

I already said I’d support an definite coalition with the Liberals to beat Harper. I notice you ignored that too. Write up an agreement about who will run candidates where so as to have the best chance of taking out the conmen; specify a platform of reforms and measures both parties can agree to and sign an agreement as to what cabinet posts go to the NDP and, like I wrote to Sophia hours ago, I’d support Jack’s agreeing to it..
How come you didn’t respond to that Brain? Don’t Liberals like you want to defeat Harper in the next election?

Federal NDP gets elected where, cosmo?

Jack Layton: Toronto Danforth
Olivia Chow: Trinity Spadina
Libby Davis: Vancouver East
Penny Priddy: Surrey Whatever ... etc etc

The boonies tend toward Born-Again Conservatives like Stockwell Day and that big Myron guy from Wild Rose, AB., dontcha think?

But getting back to Stephane Dion ... granted I was chomping on an apple and couldn't hear too well as I watched his interview on The National with Peter Mansbridge but I am pretty sure Dion never mentioned British Columbia. When asked specifically about The West, he talked about the Tar Sands, the Wheat Board, and something about Manitoba. But not B.C.

Somebody was telling me how Dion is evil because he took over the Paul Martin campaign machine (Marrison, etc). I said I bet Dion didn't know the whole story. Not possible, they told me. But if Dion could get through a Mansbridge interview without noticing if B,C. had fallen off the map, I rest my case: Dion didn't know.

Oh, and one other thing, for people here in BC the most important of all.

Sever every connection with the BCLiberal back room boys and girls, the Marissens and the Clarks, The Reids and the Bornmanns and, above all the Campbell clones and the chief salesman himself, Gordon Campbell - the gang who are selling this province down the river.

That'd be a deal breaker for me. If Dion wants to sleep with those characters he's on his own. It would be the same as sleeping with the fishes.

Mary,
Dion didn't mention BC because it doesn't appear on his radar - but he was more than happy to swing through the leadership campaign's last few hours holding hands and taking strategic advice from the same guys who've turned BC into the biggest floating crap game in North America.

Actually, I don't mind him all that much. I just think his awareness to the issues from all sides and his ability to communicate what they are, along with his overall political strategy, well, it just plain sucks rocks.
And Jack sure does ignore the right when he attacks the Liberals and gives the hard right neocons a bye... like the last election.

And your criticisms of your next quote of mine don't make my post any less valid either. What is the NDP after? Popularity or results? Christ, if you get good results, you become popular! Its a no brainer. And the delivery. Hate to break it to you, but no one looks forward to coming home to an exaggerating, sometimes 180 from the truth, bitch. But if you feel that our NDP leader's following thinks and speaks in such a negative way, by all means... Vote NDP.

Yes, of course, this philosophy could never work for the NDP itself. No, that would be far too inappropriate to do so.

Yes, Frank, the NDP can do no wrong and are entirely blameless for what I predict to be a sharp shrinkage of support for them. They are doing real swell in uniting the left. I guess we'll all be scratching our heads saying, "geez, what went wrong?" if I happen to be right. Yes, there is no need to self examine such a perfect political party for any signs of weakness. No need at all. Everybody should just vote blindly for the NDP.

Yes, the NDP knows and does whats best for us at all times and conduct themselves with the upmost of polite candor and warmth. Cause you know, political parties never change. The cons? No changes since Macdonald. The Libs? No changes since Laurier. The NDP? No changes since Tommy Douglas. Nope. None. And none of them bend to multinationals and unions, you know. Not even the NDP.

Coyote:
Your back to your old form, got me agreeing with you again, which has become my warm tradition (except for Mulroney's absent hand in national debt, FTA and GST of course). :-) The meat and potatoes of where true leadership needs to make their stand known has aptly been adressed by Ed Deak. Our economic sovereignty is at stake here and few are aware of the utter seriousness of it. (man, I'm glad that guy is still above ground and telling it like it is)

Going to have dig your number out and give you a hollar (but I've got this caffeine induced headache from to much coffee). You should hear from me this weekend. Later, brother.

What about that formal coalitino Brain? You have to admit that the Liberals don't live by their promises even as well as the Harpocrits do.

By the way, what's Dion's policy on offshore oil exploration - has he cleared that with Marissen yet? Because Gordo certainly said some encouraging things about the prospect when he was in Taiwan.

And the Wheat Board? What about that? Is he going to put up a holy stink in Parliment as Anderson and Stockboy and friends try to castrate the best friend the Western Canadian Grain farmer ever had?

I can't understand how someone as normally level headed as you has gone so head over heels for a guy whose been the Liberal leader for less than a week. What's the deal?

coalitino sheesh - sounds like something vaguely Italian, I meant coalition - sorry dude.

Don't want to offend the Spelling & Grammar Police.

Are they giving gold stars, by the way?

Watch it, G, you may have blown a head gasket.

Jeez, I can't just post LOL - they have fascist rules about at least 10 characters.

What the heck is a perceived reality?
You know what the word "paradigm" means, don't you?

Try the debates and media interviews.

The legistlation to enshrine their spending wasn't passed. It could have been, if the Libs were able to pass another budget, which was sheduled to come just before the next election was to take place under Martins timeline. Nice try though, G.

You say the Libs and Cons are night and day. Frank says there's no difference. You both go together like salt and peppa'.

Respond to absolutely every single word you post? Are you nutty? I need spare time for a social life. And haven't you read my views on prior threads? I'm likely to vote NDP or Green, depending on who has a better running MP wannabee. The Libs are dead ducks in my riding and don't need my help anyways. Its NDP reform I'm more interested in than anything at the moment. And the NDP's few day old ad's on this site to drum up money for a negative ad campaign in the globe... Telling, G, of what they'd so love to do.

Yes, what a wonderful excuse to fail to garner far more support than they could have... just be like all the rest. Lets not bother to self examine for flaws. That would be pointless, leading to a positive change.

And regarding your post to Mary, I'll ask it twice now. Can you provide any other name besides Marissen from BC's list of Lib crooks that was directly involved with Dion at any other time in Dions career? Further, are you impling that Marissen is now guiding actual governing policy beyond election strategy? It seems to be a fairly broad brush your painting with.

I'm trying to print a letter to the damn Prime Minister to protest the last dozen crappy things he's done and the Brain says leftys don't protest what Stevo and the Harpocrits are up to.....Sheesh - printer must be out of ink.

LOL. You must assume I have Dions blackberry number. I haven't heard anything about offshore drilling in BC, but the province has already revealed the mulinationals who are pushing it.

As far as Dion goes with the wheatboard, he has already stated that if the Cons axe it, he will reinstate it as soon as he forms a government.

Relating to the wheatboard, the Cons simply want to do away with it all together. What farmers wish for is the right to sell their grain to whomever they please... including the wheatboard! Currently, the wheatboard is a monopoly in western Canada only, where all grain growers must sell their grain directly to the wheatboard and no one else. The exception is feed barley, where producers can privately sell feed barley to whomever they like.

The Con strategy is to get farmer support on the sale of malting barley to whomever the farmer wishes to sell it to... and then move onto grain. Ultimately, this means that the U.S. grainhandlers will move in and create a monopoly of their own. Its the NCC playbook all over again, G.

You know that's baloney. Harpo wouldn't have honoured either commitment and you know it - Martin was responsible for his own fate - and as a matter of fact, he thought the polls were in his favour and that's why he went - more than anything the Libs blew the campaign because they did nothing to counter pee wee's attacks over the Xmas break.

Never did.

I said that at least with Harper you know what you get, with the Liberals, all you get is lies and self-interest.

Oh and the stuff about paradigms? Can't everyone have one of those?

Sometimes they're just wrong - based on false perceptions.

I don't believe you. You come across like someone who wants the NDP to disappear so the Liberals can pick up their support and usher us into a 2 party system. I want none of it.

As to further involvement of the Marissen gang in Dion's campaign - I know there were several of them helping him in Montreal and I can't believe they just met there for the first time - Marissen and Co. was running his campaign and it went on for a good many months. But, even if he didn't know any of the Campbell clones before that; so what - he doesn't even seem to realize BC exists anyway - as Mary so accurately pointed out.

You still haven't dealt with my coalition proposal - how come? Afraid the NDP might gain more that way?

Is that the Liberals who cut the hell out of health care, the social transfer and post sec in '93 or the Liberals that had to be forced to rethink their 5 billion dollar corporate tax cut and invest in child care and post sec education instead by Jack Layton that you want me to vote for Terry?

Or is it the Liberals that just stole the money during the referendum. Maybe its the liberals who led the largest increase in Greenhouse gases while gabbing about climate change. Or the ones who changed their mind on NAFTA. Or is it the ones who put us in Afghanistan in the first place. And then there's the Liberal party that gutted the CBC.

There are so many different kinds of Liberals to support I get confused. Help me out with this Terry. Who are your favourites?

I know all that Brain. I didn't notice a single word in Dion's campaign about western farmers and the Wheatboard - not a very big Liberal priority I guess - like offshore oil. I reckon he'll consult Campbell on that one.

Oh, G and just for the record (again), I have never voted for the Liberals or had a membership in their party at any level of government. I find you're position concerning my leanings towards federal parties to be somewhat laughable. Non of them are beyond criticism or sell examination and like I say, to go on as if they aren't kind of reeks of a religious cult mentality. I simply like to give criticism where I believe its due. And the NDP better start looking inward with their own flaws or they will continue to lose support for their party. It is really that simple.

For whatever reason, you, and specifically you, are ulra defensive with anyone who you perceive as "attacking" the party. But what you fail to realize, is that I have every right to criticize my own. You seem to forget where I come from and who I've traditionally for, for so long. If anyone has the right to look internally with gripes and complaints, its someone like myself. And I have them. And if the NDP party doesn't wish to hear it, then I'll be forced to move onto a party that is more, how shall we say... democratic?

Thank you archer 2006.

I don't need a stamp on this letter to pee wee do I?

Once a annual budget is passed, it isn't just killed and started over again. There is a budget passed every spring. Latyon wasn't going to wait for this to happen, or give Martin any chance of people thinking about their wallets. I take back what I said about you. It wasn't a nice try. You simply didn't know. And for what its worth, I'm not too keen on being called a "liar".

Actually, yes, you did say they were night and day different.
And for what its worth, you may as well give up on the letter to Harper, unless you want a standard reply that goes with such emails. It won't be read, G. You can always try, though.

I have a strong affection for the truth. If you haven't gathered that in all the stuff I've posted here on a broad range of issues, then you haven't been paying attention.

If you look back over those posts you'll find:
1) all kinds of criticism of the provincial NDP in BC;
2) an acknowledgment that Jack is not my favourite computer CD salesman - how much more critical would you like me to be?
3) in the end, the NDP is not the government in this country and never has been – how fair is it to pile on all the ad hominem nonsense you’ve shoveled on today when the real guilty parties are the Conservatives and the Liberals who have been (and are still, remember,) the people who are really responsible for what’s going on in this country.

I mean, really, credit where credit’s due.

I've written many times I'm not a member of the party and, if you recall, I'm much more of a Tommy Douglas fan than a Jack Layton fan, period.

But, I'm telling you what I believe - I really think this country is far better off when the NDP has many members in parliament and when people like you and Terry Glavin (who both seem to have suddenly turned into born again liberals overnight) start suggesting that voting NDP is a waste of time I think it's contingent upon people who believe in fairness and the truth to point out certain historical realities to them and anyone else who'll listen.

And that last point about democracy sounds a little hollow when you've just been promoting a party that voted down real party democracy; a party that has a strong tradition of bussing delegates to nomination meetings and selling memberships to dead people.

I don't think I've been the slightest bit defensive by the way - it's not my style.
And you still haven't dealt with my coalition proposal - how come?

I called you a liar?
When?

And this,

is what you just said about how Dion would reverse a decision. I think you're dead wrong about what the budget would have tied Harper too.

And that promise about Dion and the Wheat board; how can you be sure it wouldn't be like Chretien's promises about reversing North American Free Trade and the GST?

Liberals have a tradition of forgetting their promises once they're in power - it's one of the reasons I'm always so suspicious of them.

A reply! My God that's more than I ever got in response to any letter I ever wrote a Liberal PM. I wasn't expecting that even. But Pols. know that every letter, real letter, typed and signed, probably represents more than a hundred (and less than a thousand) people of similar mind.

And really, when you think of it, if Dion is this incredible guy, left-leaning, environmentalist and all - concerned with the little people and tax fairness and the future of the planet - why wouldn't he and his dog Kyoto meet Jack and work out some kind of power sharing deal to make sure we send pee wee back to Calgary. Maybe in return for 3 or four Cabinet spots and several new economic initiatives and serious budget input.

Who do you think would turn thumbs down at that? The average Liberal member or the average Canadian?

I don't think so, but I think Elliot and Cappy and neocon and all the back room boys would go apoplectic.

I mean, really, it'd be for the good of the country!
Right, isn't it time the Liberals put the country first and subsumed their instincts for power and ambition, just this once?

I always like to be a fly on the wall whenever possible. I fell like that fly right now.
It's encouraging to me to see the left in such total disarray.
The left is so flaky that it's not so very hard to see them expose themselves as having no real values. No ideas on how to make things better for Canadians. In fact looking like they are about to screw regular Canadians by threatening our GDP in recolours ways in order to appease the environmetalists agenda that proclaims Victoria is soon to be flooded by a massive meltdown of some kind.
I fear when science gets polluted by politics.
Stephan is a smart guy.

I have faith that he will blow it. After all, he is such an easy target, with his hypocritical green attack on the CPC, who have barely been in power for lest than a year, and can't possibly be come up with an enviro policy that won't cost us a decline in our GDP, knowing that Canada can only be blamed for 3% of the problem, and cutting this down is not a world saver, no matter what you think.
I am so fascinated by the way that the Canadian left thinks. It's a stretch to see any logic in their arguments.
In fact they appear more trouble than they are worth.

G West says:

I agree that the Liberal's record on environmental issues, despite that they claimed support for the Kyoto Accord, was abysmal. I have, though, never heard a prominent Liberal speak about and give such priority to the subject as Stephane Dion is. I am, therefore, willing to suspend judgment until I see the specifics of his platform.

If the Liberals do, though, propose initiatives that will effectively combat global warming, we must support them. This, I agree, would necessitate a detailed plan being in place before the election.

One option is to run only one candidate - either a Liberal, Bloc, NDP, or Green - in some ridings. Unfortunately, such cooperation is unlikely. Perhaps these four parties will consider global warming - the most pressing issue facing our world - to be important enough to warrant such action.

And yes, if electoral reform were part of any deal, we would not ever again have to resort to the ridiculous practice of strategic voting.

How much of these posts did you read Ron?

That's just baloney and you know it. As a matter of fact just the opposite is the truth - it's the right wing that has cynical positions like Harper's little dance of the dialectic over SSM in Ottawa today.

Right again Ron - but the meltdown is what's happening because we haven't protected the environment and because we've ignored the science. You prefer the flat earth methods of the Harpocrits.

It's hypocritical not to be green Ron - that's the problem with pee wee's clean air act - it isn't..clean .. that is.

DO you have any idea of where we stand as global energy hogs Ron? I guess not.

Keep swinging, it's a bit warm around my desk tonight - I appreciate the breeze.

says Beacon Hill
I've suggested a meaningful coalition at least 3 times on this thread and you're the first person to pick up on it.

Thank you.

As long as Dion cuts all ties with the Campbell government we can talk. But there will have to be cabinet posts and a specific program involved or the Liberals will just slither away like Chretien did in 1993.

I've been watching Dion's interview with Mansbridge and I think I'd have to say he doesn't come across as someone who knows a lot about the west.

He just said that his best economic brain is Ralph Goodale - we're in trouble!

I also strongly feel that Jack Layton cutting off his moustache would have to be part of any deal.

G West;
I think you are underestimating the power of an elected government.
As you know the government of the day is all consuming. all powerful, and that's how I can criticize the government of the day, because they have every advantage, and thus should do all that is necessary to improve the lives of Canadians.
Now what is happening now with left liberals is that they don't necessarily seem to be terribly concerned with the standard of living of Canadians.
I know that there are choices to be made about how we Canadians react to the pressure we are being held to.
You can con anyone into anything. What are we going to do?
Kill our economy for s feel good adventure?

And when is this going to start Ron?

Oh, Brain, you were asking for more details about BC Liberal/ Dion connections, right?

Well here they are Bruce Clark, Bill Cunningham, Roy Bornmann, Jamie Elmhurst, David Basi (at least at the delegate selection level) and of course, Mark Marissen and his lovely wife Christy.

Nice bunch eh!

IAMC:

I'm not quite sure how the right thinks an economy based on petroleum - a depleting resource skyrocketing in price that is responsible for trillions of dollars worth of environmental destruction - represents sound fiscal policy.

archer2006:

I love it!

BH; I'm not sure petroleum is depleting, than it's it's being under utilised. There is plenty of oil and natural gas out there. But we are getting sucked into Kyoto and generally the extreme left wing agenda that has already flooded us, only a a few thousand years too late in their stupid predictions about our doom.
Go Nuclear and we will be able to con the rest of the world we are as good as Iran.
Maybe we can rule the world yet.

Frank says:

That sounds a lot like what the NDP says to scare the Greens into voting for them.

David Beers, sir, up to this point the verbosity maschine known as "G West' has posted precisely 42 pearls of pontification on this string. Forty-two posts--I kid you not! Please buy him a blog or cut off his index fingers. One finger, at least. Anyone out there can hack his Underwood?

bud carlos
thanks for keeping score. Just trying to catch up to the Brain. You might wanna keep tabs on his posts on another couple threads around here - I think he's far and away the record holder btw

Underwood? Man are you dating yourself!

Moreover, bud carlos, many of those petite posts posed pertinent points gratis all gratuitous alliteration.

You are tying all of these names together with just one man. Marissen. He dines with one pig and suddenly is at the dinner table with all his friends? Is that fair and honest assessment? I hardly think so.

Revisiting your issue of federal budgets, there is an annual Federal budget that comes up every spring. Once spending is committed under contract, it is pretty much written in stone, unless, in the following annual budget, the same party or opposition decides to change things. Sometimes there are also budget amendments, but they are rare, don't offer much in the way of real change in the norm, and must be pasted through the house.

If, for example, theoretically, Martin would have had his wish and the election would have been called in the spring, we would have had daycare and the Kelowna accord and if the Cons would have won, they would have had to wait close to a full year to make changes, or amend the budget to suit their needs. The chances of such a budget amendment being passed once spending was already committed to these area's would have very likely forced a vote of non-confidence, setting up another election precisely on the budget issue itself. The NDP saw the polls playing out with Gomery, played popular politics over serving the countries social needs, and the rest is history.

I stated a position, you doubted my sincerity, and no, you didn't outright call me a liar, but you certainly implied it.

And concerning the issue of honesty, the NDP party is going to have to be more honest in their approach with Canadians, if they are to hope to grow instead of shrink and the same can be said for their conduct. You're own view is that the NDP has the same conduct as the rest, that all parties do it. You know, 4 wrongs make a right. This is also my view, and I'm heavily criticising it. Its obvious to me that the Cons won't change, and nor should they. They are being democratic by representing self righteous assholes. Look at our wonderous HardRightwingnut basher up top there who feels happy to live in devastated environments for the sake of a few GDP points... you know, old whats his name. But what, are the rest of Canadians assholes? Are the rest of Canadians nothing but fingerpointing bitches and smear campaigners? Is this democracy when all of our leaders act like asswipe children?

Be Ye separate, NDP! Be Ye separate and stand tall, or risk being cut down by the voting masses! I expect smears for multinational money from the Cons. I expect the Libs to say this, but do that. But I don't fully expect it from the NDP or Greens and to that end, the NDP has let me down with their direction and leadership and until they pick themselves up and dust themselves off and do whats right instead of popular, I'll call it what it is and isn't.

IAMC: What you are reading is an open debate. I highly doubt that the Canadian Republican Alliance party (CRAP) allows such a thing. Your party kicked out the only real Conservative that was practicing real, open democratic debate. Isn't that something to be proud of...

And one last thing, which is why I see changes in the winds for this country. The PMO is the most powerful office of all, in this country. The same goes for leaders as being the most powerful position in each party. In this country, it begins at the top. There isn't one political scientist or well informed journalist and electorate that does not know this. We quite simply, don't elect figureheads. The mob does not rule in this country. Leadership rules. Ask any CEO or chairman. Ask any businessman. Ask any politician. And what we have with Dion is someone who is known as being principled and gutsy. Perhaps the only leadership hopeful who could make such a claim to the same principled reputation is Gerard Kennedy and when Kennedy offered his support, a major alliance between east and west was forged before our eyes.

If Dion drops the environmental ball, he'll lose Kennedies support and what that will mean is a deep divide in the Liberal party. This won't surface until they are in power, if it ever goes down at all. But mark my words. This kingmaker holds weight in Dion's leadership. Those who read, or watched the Lib convention know this reality. The polls in Ontario reflect it. If the Liberals don't deliver on the environment and social issues this time, their party will sewer, and sewer fast.

So all of these thoughts and words of doubt might very well be misplaced. Did Bay St. court Dion or Kennedy? Nope! The media and Bay St. pimped out Iggy and Rae but huge, with each spending 2 million in the efforts to get re-elected. Dion spend $700,000 with over $550,000 borrowed from banks through personal loans. Does Dion owe the multinationals and elite his victory? Nope. Is he really that prinicipled? Very likely. Is this countries expectations of change really that high? Yes. And in the year to come, if the Liberals don't deliver on those expectations, all of the fear and doubt will spill over into the NDP's favor and if they don't change, they will just plug along with 30 seats or so, believing its progress.

And if the Libs deliver? All the fear and doubt about Dion will be wasted. Even if the NDP looks inward and cleans up its act, it won't matter. A new wave of Liberal strength will rule the next decade under Dion. And the decade after that? All parties get old and stale, all parties make blunders over time. And this is why opposition needs to exist, for that time will come, sooner... or later.

The NDP needs to survive now, and into the future and it can't happen through the direction they've recently chosen. The Cons need reform? Nope. They represent their Republican U.S. sellout, Arian values just fine for their multinational interests. The Libs? Boy oh Boy, they sure screen their candidate hopefuls closely don't they? Emerson... the crooked MP backbenchers of Quebec... their sit on their ass environmental initiatives (until lately)... And the greens. Brand new, no dings and dents, already rubbing off on everyone elses political platforms most specically, the NDP... which brings us back to the NDP itself. Do they need to reform? Rethink their leadership and direction? Their survival ultimately depends on it. They will be lucky to keep the seats they've got in the west, lose 2 of 3 in Ontario (and they should have won 10 to 15 seats there in the last election, what a golden lost opportunity), get blanked in Quebec, and will lose seats in the east. And they will lose a % of the popular vote. But they are needed.

And one last thing, G. Tommy Douglas really was a saint. Principled. Not so unlike the nerd you call peewee. The NDP simply has to get back to what got them on the map! Their suvival now depends on it. Things change. But for the NDP, they need to change back to what they once were. A party of prinicple, representing the rights and needs of us all.

the Brain,

This is it for me on this subject. bud carlos, despite his alliterative excess, is right. This post and the next and not another word from me. I think I've covered all your objections, covered them without being rude or defensive, but enough is enough. Frank can take over if there's anything more to be said. So here goes:

Budgets cover the "next" not the current fiscal year - they are prospective forward-looking documents and are, by their nature, estimates. Individual ministries vote supply subsequent to the budget and believe me, they get changes all the times. If you want evidence, look back to what happened to the Liberals "commitments" to transfers to the provinces during the early years of the Chretien government.
But, Harper's policy direction was clear - he was not going to fund Liberal programs he didn’t agree with (look at what he’s doing to things like status of women and aboriginal language funding right now) and the election, if it had been in the spring would have been 30-odd days after the Gomery report came down in February.
Anyway, I think your whole point is redundant anyway. You’ve simply drunk the same Kool-aid that working man sells. The decision about when the election was going to be held was Martin's, he wanted a January election because he thought he could win it before final Gomery came down. You’ve just been suckered by the smoke and mirrors. And the other point you made some time ago about working with the Liberals, I hope you won’t forget what Paulie’s budget plans were for the $5 billion the NDP (and Jack Layton) convinced him to spend on programs (and not a corporate tax cut). Fairness requires one look at the whole picture, Brain.
The thing about Marissen and gang is that it is business as usual for Dion to use the BC sleaze-masters in his campaign, a typical Liberal who cares mare about power than the folks who help him win it. I think the onus is on the new guy to show he’s different – so far not so much, eh?
And you still haven't dealt with my suggestion of a formal alliance - the kind of thing even ‘Beacon Hill’ brings up for consideration. Why not? Why does it have to be the NDP to suck it up again on the false hope that another Liberal will behave like a decent man and not a Ron Erwin once he's in power.

Tommy Douglas was a very tough, pragmatic leader - he was no saint and if you want confirmation of that look around for some of the memoirs written by the folks who served in his cabinet.
When I look at Jack Layton's actual results for the community he's worked and lived in in Toronto for the last dozen years I find a lot more 'grass roots' community involvement there than I do in all the high profile hoity-toity kind of thing that Bob Rae's been doing (and no directorships either).
You may be right and the NDP will take a kicking in the next election but I'll bet it’s not because the people want them to disappear. It'll be because of the 2-party prejudice and basic undemocratic nature of the political system. If you really care about reform and you want more people to care about and get involved in the creation of the institutions of democracy in Canada then your crusade should be for that kind of change. The sort of thing the NDP and the greens have been promoting for ages. I just think you’re on some completely Bizarro campaign to get rid of Stephen Harper (with which I sympathize) by attacking the one party that’s really different from both the Cons and the Liberals and I can’t understand it.
I think NDP voters who consider moving their votes to the Liberals are just getting sucked in one more time by the same snake oil these guys have been selling since Mackenzie King. I think I represent exactly what the NDP should represent. An honest voice which says you don't desert the folks who ‘brung’ you to the dance and you don't ever vote Liberal without having a signed, sealed and notarized deal (spelling out that you're doing it as part of a pact which will bring real benefits to the one party, the NDP, that has consistently stood for reform), a deal that will commit the Liberals to changes and real improvement for the average person and for the state of the whole world instead of just for Liberal elite ‘friends’ and fellow travellers in the corporate suite and the USA.
Without that deal, anyone who votes Liberal because they 'trust' Dion is going to be very disappointed. At least that’s my fear.
The party that needs reform is the Liberals - they're still run by big businessmen and crooks who believe in a long string of lies about their own history. And who seem completely unwilling to face the truth.

And on your final point of 'principle' relative to the NDP and Jack Layton, when I see a few years of really principled behavior from the Federal Liberals, I'll think about criticizing someone other than them.

As to fairness, and I have no membership in any political party, I'm pretty damn critical of the NDP "Opposition" here in BC virtually every day.

Cheers.

G West:

Thanks.

IAMC and others here,

Of course the left is in total disarray right now, which the history of the evolution from Progressive Conservative through Reform, WCP and another of other splinter configurations into the current Neocons should demonstrate to you, is often an early part of the creative politicl process and realignment. And "predictions", if one is not overly concerned about their accuracy, are easy to make-, and can even be fun. Mine is that over the coming years, in response/reaction to the realignment on the right and at the centre, which includes Liberals and the NDP, "the left", whether it sees itself as formally "left" or not, is entering into such a period as you folks on the right have just gone through yourselves, on part of that ruling class which interests you speak for. It is a consequence of your own rightist actions and the glaring inadequacies of what has passed for "the left" (and the "Labour Movement") in this country, for far too long already.

The Left, with the main bodies of the trade union movement, had fallen into and continues with the classic "co-opted" behaviour patterns which flowed out of such a period as the post-WW2 "Prosperity Capitalism Period", which began to play out and return to a more classic pattern of capitalist inequalities and anti-working class policies beginning in the late 1970s to early 1980s. (Which still has nearly everyone, including the NDP and "Labour" in a near state of shock and disbelief, and to which it much still thinks it can return to that post-war Prosperity Capitalism Period, if it fights for and stays in or near "the centre/centre right".) It has merely taken this long for the consequences of that to become more and more unavoidably obvious, and to begin to drive the need for a relalignment, reconfiguration, and re-definition of "The Left". Which process, I suggest, is now underway, if still in its early stages.

The still emerging future being created by the return to what is in its main outline, an Old Capitalism policy set, if in a new Global Corporatist form, is making clear the requirement that the left re-examine itself, what it has become and come to presume, and the degree to which it has been co-opted and, in fact, "integratged" into a "capitalist political correctness ethos, and "loyal opposition" role. This, when what is needed is a major return to its socially "transformative" class and reform/revolutionary roots-, if in a new form(s), with a different understanding of itself and updated policy set, such as corrects the errors in analysis and understandings of its own founding past, and the more recent Prosperity Capitalism past.

In my view, it is time for "the left" to itself sever the umbilical chord connection which it still has with capitalism, in order for itself to be reborn. So long as it clings within that social and economic womb of capitalism, it remains unready to be born upon its own, with all the risks of being still born, if it lingers overly long.

Until which rebirth occurs, "the left" as currently exists, in my view, still has very little to offer by way of a transformation of current bourgeois/ruling class political correctness and socio-economic reality. Which works to make all the political choices currently available in the formal political elctoral process, inadequate and bad ones.

My view. :-)

The emphasis is yours Beacon Hill, not mine.
This is what I actually said about your suggestion:

That reflects my feelings; the 'even' was more a response to a couple of your subsequent offerings - and was meant to be taken lightly.
In fact, there hasn't been enough humour in this thread, as bud carlos also seems to suggest, so go for it. We could all lighten up a bit, NO?
What am I up to now, bud, you still have that clicker working?

I have to oil my Underwood – and that’s tough since Beers nipped off a finger.

My wife, upon reading this last piece of mine, just made what I think is a really astute observation. That the left and "official labour" both, like ruling class politics itself in this country, are still looking to politics in the states (especially Democratic Party politics) to find and define itself and its policies. When really, both need to be looking some further south, into Latin America, and studying left and labour political developments there for some more accurate indications of our own political development direction needs.

With which I very much agree.

You and your wife, coyote, might appreciate this:

This arrogance is perfectly familiar to them. They entertain no doubt of the immense superiority of their own judgment. When such imperial and royal reformers, therefore, condescend to contemplate the constitution of the country which is committed to their government, they seldom see any thing so wrong in it as the obstructions which it may sometimes oppose to the execution of their own will. They hold in contempt the divine maxim of Plato, and consider the state as made for themselves, not themselves for the state. The great object of their reformation, therefore, is to remove those obstructions; to reduce the authority of the nobility; to take away the privileges of cities and provinces, and to render both the greatest individuals and the greatest orders of the state, as incapable of opposing their commands, as the weakest and most insignificant...

It was written by Adam Smith. Guess it's possible to learn things from almost anyone these days. I'd be interested to seem how a lot of our neocons respond to this quote from a guy they often tout as their philosophical father.

'seem' should be, obviously, 'see'

And GWest, in response to your comment on another thread, you will not have heard me speak of "the barricades" once, anywhere here, at anytime within Tyee, ever.

Whether "barricades" per se will ever exist in the future political developments of this country or not, from this point in time, I have no way of knowing. That is unlikely to be determined by the left in any case, and more likely would be a response to "other" political development threats.

We are talking the state of the left AND labour, or at least I am, in the here and now, what has happened to it, and where it needs to go, how it needs to organize itself, and what policies and social vision is necessary for it to advocate for, in order to provide a more real and truly "transformative" option for folks. And I ain't about to put on ony NDP OR Liberal ideology limited blinders in this. I like to see all around me at all times. :-)

Well Canada just got a whole lot more interesting in the last week or so. First with the elections of the former sex worker turned priest and now MP from Quebec and then Dion leader of the Liberals.
Now with the Libs moving "left' we have the discussion and hand wringing "what is the NDP to do". If the Libs. know one thing it's Canada and how to get power. They are always able to move left and squeeze the NDP when necessary.
In one week many more Canadians are re-thinking Harper-do we really want him??
So it looks like the Lib. strategy is to expose Harper and the government-for the right wing neo-conservative idelogues extremists they really are-they are the real religious fundalmentalists, be greener than the Greens, move left push the NDP and presto!-power and government. This could be a good thing.

Hmmmm. I don't seem to be able to recall ever speaking about or advocating for "perfection" either. Which I know full well, in the human context, is ever pursued but never attained. You and GWest need to hold a little check on the accuracy claims of each other. :-)

My only contention in this regard might be that there is no "perfection" as well in advocating for either the deeply imperfect NDP or fatally flawed Liberals. The margins within that error indeed leave plenty of room for my views to be no less "imperfect", in the very least. :-)

Ya think? :-)

Coyote, guess I was just extrapolating from what's going on in Mexico - eventually, it may well come to that....at some point the people do eventually wake up!

Coyote
In the meantime, I've not a moment's second thought about acknowledging that there ain't no such thing as perfection - nor that any of our political parties come anywhere near it anyway - now or in the future – and don’t think that’s a fair comment relative to what I’ve written.
We all do (unless corrupted by a mechanism and an ideology both of us understand clearly) , for the most part, the best we can under the circumstances. I see from this morning's news (posted at the other place) that Calderon is starting to play out the usual script down south. The, ‘I'm really your friend and interested in reform’ one, I mean. Will the barricades come down or not? I suppose that’s the next question.
I just hate to see folks I generally respect display a tendency to genuflect before the qualities of any political party or leader - especially considering in the BC context - the company they keep.

Which I would suggest is the classic assumption error, again of both NDP and Liberals, who for all their "left" talk when it suits them, both tend to walk "right" when in governance, serving those ruling class dominant interests within the economy, that exercise the "real power" over the "illusory power" of state governance alone, in and of itself.

It is a long observed behaviour of all "vanguard" political parties in this and all other countries, that regardles of the surface/rhetorical differences they manifest when they are in pursuit of a new electoral mandate for their time limited dictatorship, once safely ensconced in "formal governance", they all walk, talk and act the same in practice. (Which is because they are not the real power anyway, but act at the tolerance of money and capital property wealth that really rules from within the economy, and through control of party coffers and the large media. And until that is challenged and changed, it will ever be thus-, for all the formal trappings of a "kind of democracy".)

Which is precisely "the trap" the "Left" and "Labour" has fallen into in this country, in all its manifestations, and indeed within nearly all capitalist countries, likely even all, in my view.

(Though a small crisis in this money wealth control of democracy occurs, tending to be more favourable to the lower classes, when there is minority party governance. Which in order to correct, tends to require some concessions to these lower class stratas, in order to resecure their control again of the process.)

Hmmm, Alcibiades is some right again; even for them "perfection" does not exist-, though near enough. :-)

Though how "they" seem to be getting around this problem of "minority governments" being modestly favourable even to lower class stratas is, by creating a "righward" driven pressure within society, politics and the economy that is tending to make ALL parties practically the same anyway.Which in the consequence of, huddles everyone around the centre/centre-right, so that no matter which party is elected, state policy remains essentially the ruling class favoured same.

It is how ruling class wealth is manipulating even minority governance to work in its favour, regardless of the party in so-called power. They have been at it a long time, no doubt, and know how to rule. :-)

And, I'm nearly certain, that it was these thoughts of Adam Smith's:

It is to erect his own judgment into the supreme standard of right and wrong. It is to fancy himself the only wise and worthy man in the commonwealth, and that his fellow-citizens should accommodate themselves to him and not he to them. It is upon this account, that of all political speculators, sovereign princes are by far the most dangerous.
This arrogance is perfectly familiar to them. They entertain no doubt of the immense superiority of their own judgment. When such imperial and royal reformers, therefore, condescend to contemplate the constitution of the country which is committed to their government, they seldom see any thing so wrong in it as the obstructions which it may sometimes oppose to the execution of their own will.
to which Alcibiades was bringing our attention.
In relation to the idea advanced by Glavin and others above, about the nominal 'Revolution' led by this fellow Dion in order to unseat Stephen Harper: the idea that this is somehow 'new' and promising relative to addressing the real problems of the capitalist system under which we all labour more or less unwillingly for the benefit of an exclusive elite is simply old wine in new casks.
I'd say, Coyote, we're almost on the same page; although I'd aver that even the shadowy remnant which the CCF/NDP currently retains of its former robust self is worthy of more than a little attention - for a few more years at least.

Coyote-
thanks for reading my posting. yes we know the Libs "move left' but my point was that they sure don't stay there once in power.
"Campaign from the left-Govern from the right".
That is probably the best we will get. The NDP is no way a workers party anymore. The NDP ranks are filled with very priviledged, status obsessed social democrats and lot of whom would be uncomfortable with a poor person. There are some notable exceptions of course i.e. Libby Davies and others...but the NDP no way resembles a real social movement.

The thing is, the NDP can only be considered a right-wing party in the sense that it doesn't challenge the roots of capitalist society. The NDP accepts that it can only move on issues within the boundaries of the overall capitalist economy.

So in that sense, sure its a capitalist party, but its certainly the most left-wing of all such parties with seats or which get more than 1% of the vote.

I don't know what percentage of left-wingers would actually want to move further to the left of the NDP and remake society based on completely different economic thinking.

Perhaps support for parties left of the NDP would increase under a pro-rep system, perhaps they wouldn't. I don't know. But there doesn't seem to be much of a call for a party to the left of the NDP, even on the Tyee.

I think people want the current economy to work better, be more inclusive, provide a good income and life to anyone and everyone able to work and support for those who can't. On that front the Libs and Cons have failed to deliver in both good times and bad which is why the NDP came into existence and continues to exist. Perhaps Dion will wipe out the NDP and Greens in the next election without ever having to actually do anything except toss into his speeches a few catch phrases that appeal to the soft-Left, we'll see although I admit history proves that's all he has to do.

G West:

As was my comment.
Cheers.

Thanks Frank for explaining why the NDP has never questioned the change from the Bank of Canada creating up to 20% of our money supply from 1938-1972, to our paying interest to banks to perform the same function thus creating the national debt. The size of the debt was the excuse for cutting funding to everything that supports people, from housing to medical care.

I always wondered why David Lewis' "Corporate Welfare Bums" didn't include banks. I think you have given the reason why the NDP has lost so much support over the years. The refusal to question the system of money creation does nothing for party credibility.

Here's an interesting story from this weeks Georgia Straight on Dion and oil.
http://www.straight.com/article/dion-eyes-big-oil-s-subsidy

Nana, I've read Paul Hellyer's books on the Bank of Canada and the debt etc.

And I agree the debt has been used as a hammer to keep societal interests down.

As for support, the NDP didn't lose any support until after free trade was brought in by Mulroney and Broadbent left. What was wrong with Audrey and Alexa? Too nice? Too polite? Never talked over people so they were dismissed? Whatever the reason was that's when the NDP declined. Under Layton, hate him or tolerate him, a lot of that previous support returned.

Do I personally think the NDP should challenge assumptions like who does our debt serve? Yes I do. But apparently the NDP has decided that doing so would only marginalize themselves the way Hellyer's CAP has been.

I was agreeing with you for the most part until I read what was in bold. It would be more like 6 to 8 weeks, with an election sometime in mid April. The opposition simply didn't want people to start thinking about their wallets and Lib budget proposals like daycare and Kelowna accords... Point is, Martin would likely have had time for a budget to pass, a budget that had a good deal of NDP led initiatives that the party had been supposedly fighting for for decades. Sorry, man but thats a valid point that deserves better that talking me down like I'm a kid on Koolaid.

Like I say, G, get the facts straight and quit running me down.

Was the apostle Paul considered anything less himself?

Two party prejudice... and there it is. The potential future failures of the NDP party will never be any fault of the NDP party itself, apparently. Hate to break it to you, but people and groups live and die by their own swords.
There was an old healer that came out with a statement that is famous to this day. Its known as Herrings law. "We heal from the top, down and from the inside out, in that order." If you think democratic reform will happen first in the system and secondly in the parties themselves, you are mistaken. The reverse is true. Democratic reform will happen within political parties first and the system, second.

And meaningful coalitions... I think that's what the electorate had in mind when minority governments are voted into power. In this case, 4 competing ideologies that must work towards comprimise to govern. It's not pretty. The system is full of flaws... but its as close as were going to get until the parties themselves, reform within. As Coyote says, there is no such thing as perfect. It doesn't matter how perfect the system is... it still comes down to imperfect people who use and abuse these systems. Don't think so? Ask God for his spin.

If only it was true... for the both of you.

Theres nothing bizarre with getting rid of Republicans like Harper by criticizing parties that claims they are left and gives the hard Right a bye. Yes, that's... different all right.

Frank

Neither Alexa or Audrey questioned FTA or NAFTA. Both Broadbent and Layton supported NAFTA. Come on...when Paul Hellyer ran he was already in his eighties. Young Mr Layton could have opened his mouth about it...or was he too busy listening to the NDP's DC PR firm (or its Canadian counterpart)that told them in '88 that the Canadian public wasn't interested in boring old trade issues.

Ever looked into from whom they take their advice these days? I must admit I haven't, but then once I understood that the NDP's function had been turned into that of election spoiler and not as the advocate of "ordinary" Canadians, to use Broadbent's term, I no longer cared. I do not expect anything from them except their acceptance of the status quo. Think what interest free money could do for the social agenda.....so why does the NDP not push for that. Interest free money to make up the shortfall for everything needed to upgrade infrastructure, but specifically excluding areas like the military and law enforcement.

I'll probably vote NDP, as I always do, but that's more about stategy than conviction.

Some of you murmered "coalition" a while back. We tried in '88 desparately to get the NDP and the Liberals to work together. Neither would hear of it.

the Brain

I disagree and you still haven’t come to grips with the fact that Martin 'wanted' the election when he 'arranged' to have it. You need to check the election laws in this country.

How come everyone blames joe clark for not being able to count and then blames everyone 'but' the Liberals for their own demise? Wake up!
'If 'ifs' and 'ands' were pots and pans, there'd be no room for tinkers.'

Oh God, you'll ruin Tommy's reputation forever if you compare him to the Apostle Paul. Deliver me.

When have ai run you down? I don't agree with you and I'm surprised you think the way you do - when I start 'running you down' you'll know it. It's not my style - unless I'm dealing with people like Ron and I don't put you in that category.

Where did I ever say that?

Oh come on! I have to shut up and you can continue to rattle on? It doesn't work that way - it takes two (or more) to tangle and that's why you're back here - just like me.

But the problems is Brain, I honestly believe the problem just isn't Harper - it's every bit as much Martin and his successor. Just remember the hue and cry that was raised when Flaherty deep-sixed the Income Trust boondoggle - It was led by a bunch of Liberals whose ox (and whose friends' ox) was being gored.
Yeh - some difference!

In other words, ignore the history of first past the post political systems and instead blame the NDP for not being able to garner the seats necessary to form a government?

Once again, Martin had 13 years to bring in his wonderful legislation. Blame the NDP all you want you guys but you're ignoring the face he found time to bring in budgets with tax cuts but not for social programs.

Nana,

the Liberals had 13 years of governance where they could have invited NDPers into cabinet. They didn't.

And Nana, what would you have the NDP do?
I freely admit they aren't as radical as I'd like them to be - but this is the world we live in. The current Prime Minister thinks the mild, cautious NDP is the spawn of Satan as it is - and Dion calls the NDP something equally noxious.
We live in the world as it is. The NDP, as the third or fourth largest group in the house of commons is not going to overturn the banking system and they'd be stupid to even suggest it.
It's time to recognize that politics is the art of the possible. And I think, whatever else anyone says, that, given the current situation we are a hell of lot better with a strong NDP than a weak one.
And still nobody will seriously discuss my suggestion of a formal coalition - except my friend Beacon Hill. How come?

This TYEE topic is starting to have all the appearances of the " Who wants to be THE TYEE KING ? "..or " TYEE LEADERSHIP CONVENTION " .

The front - runners apparently are "The Brain" VERSUS " G West " .

My valuable TYEE delegate vote is leanin' towards " The Brain " ...G West, but you know I tend to have a "liberal" view and open- mind. ( aka everything is negotiable /life is the art of compromise ).

Currently, I am counting the number of spellink mystakes of eech candydate to hellp me deecyde. Next tie - breaker is "who has the highest number of links" ?

What do you offer, G West ...a TYEE Senate seat ....or part of the TYEE Royal Commission on the topic " NDP: Extinct? " , ...or TYEE Ambassadorship to U.S. (not France SVP !!! )

If not, perhaps a few other TYEE dark horse candidates may sneak up the middle.
PS Marrisen on Line One...

I'm very aware that at least in the realm of theory, we are indeed almost on the same page, GWest. Which doesn't mean that we can't and won't have differences. As I do no less with Frank, I have no less respect for yourself. It's differing assessments on the current "robustness" of the NDP upon which we are much hung up here. In the case of Mary and the Brain, it's of the Liberals.

But ehhh, that doesn't anywhere near make either one of you my political enemies, by a long shot-, in my view. :-)

On the other hand, Southdeltawalker, I can't find a damn thing to disagree with in your comment here. :-) At least, often true-, with the exceptions you noted and some others. (I am currently some smitten with Corky Evans, for example, with what I think is his sincerity and at least the potential of his political ideas.)

The central point, however, if there is one here, is that part of what seems to be this current disarray and confusion on the left (which IAMC is absolutely correct about), and with "progressives", which is I think the signal of a process already underway which we simply have to go through. Out of which we are going to create that truly, not merely lip service new direction and new politic we are going to have to discover and at least major numbers agree upon, if we are yet to truly play that "transformation" role within status quo society that it is daily more needing, and certainly many of us want to. And part of that process is likely to involve some pretty sharp and heated debate amongst ourselves, if not outright confrontations over ideas and approaches with each other. It is absolutely necessary. What is, is simply not good enough anymore, in this post the earlier Prosperity Capitalism Period, or even yet is it moving in the right direction-, I think.

So long as the centre of gravity continues to come from the "right" and the political correctness status quo here, and the "left" fails to find the mass and velocity necessary to break free of that orbit, the current pull of gravitational forces will continue to weaken, and threaten to destroy it. It has already made irrelevant such "nice" folks as Carole James and Jack Layton, in my view. With which at least that much I find myself tending to agree with Brain.

But ehhhh, my instincts are warning me that there is likely a ways to go yet, and the differences could still multiply and become like hot potatoes. :-)

On the other hand, maybe my fairy godmother will intervene and instantly make everything right and quarrel free with the wave of her wand. :-) lol

Took in a live play in town last night, in which one of my daughters was acting. It'd been so long since I saw live theatre, that I had forgotten how delightful it could be.

This evening Mrs. Coyote wants to see the new James Bond in Casino Royale. And with but one movie theatre in town, it is that or nothing.

Ta,ta. [I]

G.West Who said anything about "overturning the banking system". I'm talking about bring up the subject of going to the status quo ante when as I said, from 1938-1972 the Bank of Canada....which still exists and which still maintains the legal mandate to create up to 20% of the money supply. Commercial banking goes on as usual, there just is no longer a subsidy or tribute, if you will, to it in the form of needless interest.

How quick you are to dismiss the glaringly obvious.

Enjoy the film Coyote, you might be interested to know that the aforesaid corky evans has responded to my initial email with a form letter. Not very promising. I wish you better luck when you decide to proffer an invitation.

Everybody who has their wits about them knows that stuff - what't the point in just talking about it. If you're not into changing things, why bring it up?

Is that obvious enough for you.

Oh my, touchy are we? I bring it up because I want it to change, so who are you talking about...the NDP?

Most people...and that's who the voters are would like this problem addressed, if they knew about it in the first place.

The party that should have brought it up, and made it an issue...the bleeding NDP...didn't ever go there. The party that didn't accept corporate donations ...so there was never a problem with loosing those campaign dollars... never once asked the key question on funding of social programs.

It's elementary, like buildings can't collapse into their own footprints at the rate of free fall without explosive help!

I have recognized Terry Glavin as an intense, if somewhat surreptitious Liberal partisan ever since his front-page Fish Story appeared in the Georgia Straight in July of 1998 {
http://www.sfu.ca/~epoole/fishtale.htm}. It was a pure propaganada puff piece for then Federal Fisheries Minister David Anderson.

A few months later, in a completely unrelated, total coincidence, Minister Anderson's patronage master Brian Bohunicky arranged for one Terry Glavin to be appointed to the Pacific Fisheries Resource Conservation Council. I think we citizens and taxpayers can pretty much figure that, as in all things Liberal, it was both a pleasure doing business and a business doing pleasure.

As for Glavins piece here on the NDP, it's a complete joke. At one point he says that when Jack Layton first came on the scene, he and other sophisticates figured Layton could "lead the NDP out of its grubby, class-warfare, church-basement wilderness." A few paragraphs further on we get this:

"Long before Layton, the NDP had already begun its inexorable drift to the centre, or at least away from its working-class roots."

So which story line is Mr Glavin going to pull out next? Is the NDP still into class warfare, or is it drifting towards the centre? And if it is more centrist, why is it less viable?

At one point Glavin makes an observation about the NDP having "pretty well tapped out the identity politics racket". This coming from a Fedearl Liberal, whose party's ruthless exploitation of immigrant and ethnic voters is legendary, and is accomplished using the same labour contractors and corrupt employers who exploit these people in the job market.

Touchy, nana? You're the one using the bold type. Look back at my response and then your answer back to me and tell me who's touchy.

Thanks for that Budd Campbell, much appreciated. Nice to be able to put Terry Glavin in the appropriate context.

Paying attention, the Brain?

GWest Asking why the NDP has never questioned paying interest to banks to create money when we don't have to is a valid question. Asking why the NDP has not made it an issue when it is a clear winner is also a valid question.

Since the Liberals giveth and the Liberals take away subsidies to corporations and Dion is talking about taking away subsidies to oil companies, might the NDP not take the opportunity to bring up this outrageous subsidy to banking and international finance? Push Dion.

Why not?

G West, ... you're welcome.

You know, just a few months ago, and this time I don't have a link, Glavin was going on about Michael Ignatieff, and what a great "left intellectual" he was. Ignatieff was so realistic in foreign affairs.

You think about it for maybe five long seconds and then it hits you. Terry Glavin had four different articles ready to go, one starring Dion, which we've seen, and others praising Ignatieff, Rae or Kennedy as the case may have been, each a little bit different as needed, but all basically banging the same Vote Strategic drum that CBC has been banging in the last two elections.

After all, Glavin like most columnists likes to "cover the spread" so that's he's ready for whatever turns up.

Checking in before heading out. Enjoyed the Bud Campbell analysis of Glavin. About spot on I would say.

Maestro: Interesting comments, lol. Somewhat guilty of charged, at least with the verboseness of our "passionate" nature. 8-D

Now that's just plain nonsense. How do you define NDP "balance" of power? And do you for some reason think I would disagree with Buds assessment? I've already stated he has obvious Liberal bias. But don't mind my previous views, I'm just a childish kid choking on koolaid.

Lets get more current, shall we? This issue is likely the Cons trump card to play in the next election. I'd advise it as necessary electorate reading for those who want to swim past the rhetoric.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/realitycheck/sheppard/20060411.html

But then, since its coming from our fast sinking CBC, we should just ignore it, since the CBC is all just Liberal propaganda, you know. Yes, we should just sell it off like Harper says. I hear the Asper family is sitting on more than 1.1 billion in cash on the Can west books now that they've sold a major televison network in Austria. Can west is now flush with cash. Oh, what a wonderful idea for Canwest to buy out the CBC... they are so much less bias...

The brain:

Did I ever say that?
I ever get pissed off at you and your ideas, you’ll know it.
I got the distinct impression that you were, in a way, following Glavin's lead and therefore the marginal note. I read Glavin's fawning piece on Ignatieff too but I wasn't aware of the Anderson background - no doubt in my mind that Glavin is an agent provocateur or worse – and a man with no moral centering. That's why I suggested that you read Bud Campbell's note. That's all.
I don't agree that accountability will necessarily be the centre of the campaign but I do agree the CBC is under threat - Canwest also took quite a hit in a New Zealand tax ruling not long ago so some of the extra bucks may not necessarily be readily available for the kind of thing you imagine.
Sometime, in another place, I'll write a piece that explains why I feel the way I do about the 'kind' of politics Liberals play.

And one final note - this from the Globe and Mail (Hugh Windsor) - as further evidence of my suspicions of Stephane Dion. About which suspicions Chantal Hebert emailed me this afternoon - you might want to check her column in today's Star as well - and said that she was 'not surprised' about the growing concern in the west over M. Dion's friends.

Here's the bit from the G & M -

Mr. Marissen's involvement began when he and his wife, Christie Clark, a former B.C. education minister and deputy premier, threw a reception for Mr. Dion in their home during his first trip west in the leadership campaign.

The consultant liked what he saw and volunteered to help. A few days later, Mr. Dion asked him to run the national campaign. The key campaign strategy was networking. One of Ms. Clark's close friends is Joyce Murray, former B.C. environment minister, who had met Mr. Dion when he was the federal environment minister. Thus the network grew.
Print Edition - Section Front

Mr. Marissen's contribution helped dispel doubts about Mr. Dion's ability as a politician, and he showed that a successful national campaign could be run from Vancouver, mainly by computer and BlackBerry. He has been a prominent strategist in the backrooms of the Liberal Party in British Columbia and chaired Mr. Martin's campaign organization in B.C. for the 2004 and 2006 elections, almost doubling B.C. representation in the Liberal caucus.

The Marissen team provided the support to get out the message...

Liberals are not your friends even though they pretend to be so, they should always be handled with the utmost caution.

Neocons like Harper and his gang are not your friends either - but at least they are honest about it.

Can't resist, here's a little more about the kind of games Dion's friends like to play:

November 21st, 2006 Posted by Richard Warnica

Last week, just before I interviewed him for The Tyee, Gerard Kennedy did a taping of the Charles Adler show at Vancouver’s CKNW. Adler wasn’t available Friday. So behind the mic instead was Christy Clark, a former BC Liberal cabinet minister and one time would be Vancouver mayor.

It was an odd choice. Clark’s husband, Mark Marissen, is a national coordinator for Kennedy’s opponent, Stephane Dion. And Clark, ever the journalist, wasted no time going after their mutual foes.

You can listen to the entire hour-long interview on CKNW’s website (in the audio vault, Friday at 2:00 pm), but here are some highlights:

Clark on Michael Ignatieff: “He came out and said he wanted to support Quebec becoming a nation within Canada. Says he wants to re-open, although there’s some controversy about this, your gonna have to re-open the constitution in order to define Quebec as a nation…
The can of worms is open. Quebecers are talking about becoming a nation in the constitution.”

On Bob Rae: “A lot of people across the country, they’d look at him and say he had one of the worst records as a provincial premier of any premier in Canadian history…
He hasn’t taken any time to prove that he’s different than when he was premier. He says it, but he hasn’t done anything to actually demonstrate it.”

Clark also probed Kennedy’s weak French language skills and his virtual no-show among delegates in Quebec. Both are fair points, and make fair questions. But they’re also perceived strengths of the one candidate Clark never mentioned in the interview: her husband’s boy, Stephane Dion.

You must have read this too Brain, did you decide to just ignore it?

No charge, Brain:

I am actually finding this quite interesting. Some TYEE topics really find a lot of mileage/kilometres, non-withstanding this one.

My first immersion into the Leadership Convention process was Joe Clark's dark horse win in the 1970's, and learning how the process really worked.

It boils down to Honeymoon period for the winner and payback time via (i) favours owed to supporters MEETS payback time of (ii) the "Ides of March" of those slighted ....or the more ambitious ones waiting to make their move in the future.

The rest is just minor details.

G West, I would hardly call that an unbiased study.

The name calling is very flattering. I don't really understand what you mean because I haven't dealt outside a credit union for twenty years, with the except of the Federal Business Development Bank (a great organisation, btw).

The socialist notion that profits are bad is simply outmoded and wrong. My company will post record profits this year and half of it goes straight to the employees as bonuses.

I suppose that it also bad that my CPP, EI and Tax remittances are also at record highs, along with GST and PST.

I am sure an NDP government could put a stop to such waste! Imagine a company and it workers paying record taxes! The thought of it. Something really should be done about it!

working man.

You still haven't figured that out have you?

Those taxes are based on consumption, not income. If the remittances are higher than last year it is simply because your business has a greater throughput this year.

I explained this to you with examples months ago. I'm not going to do it again.

Where did I ever say that profits were bad?

I was talking about the banks' profits.

How many times does one have to go over this stuff? Couldn't you keep notes?

While I'm not actually surprised that this would be the case: busy man and too many emails and letters to write, it would be disappointing. But then, who are we, eh? :-)

And no, I won't be contacting him anytime soon, for want still of some further public clarification of Corky's view of current social and political realities.

Which did get me thinking on one of those things about Corky's political line that continue to work on me a tad. And which suggests to me, we may be talking from different view of the realities here, he and I at least.

One of his observations was, in the public meeting with him I attended, which I didn't pick up on the potential importance of right away was-, that one of the things the NDP is going to have to do, if it is ever going to govern successfully is... Heard this one before? ...be prepared to make, fight for and implement the hard decisions about governing society.

Which on the surface of it seems obvious enough, from the perspective of a would-be "vanguard" party especially, but upon reflection carries some "darker" connotations or possible interpretations-, for he didn't actually spell it out.

For example, this is precisely what all the pro-capitalist parties, Liberal and Con, have been saying all along throughout this current neoconservative capitalist development period-, in implementing the tax-cuts to the rich, the privatization of "the people's" public assets, and in the signing-off over the people's heads of everything from the GST to the GATT, NAFTA, control of our hydo potential rivers, and now the North Amerikan Union, pro-US Empire agenda. Ditto, now Harper's war in Afghanistan on the side of the same US imperialist interest set, and again over the heads of the Canadian public.

Now, if Corky means to boldy advocate and begin actually in governance undo all these trade, military, and foreign ownership of the Canadian economy deals and entanglements, and to implement a renewal and reconfiguration process of democratization within the economy and larger society, that begins to circumscribe ruling class influence and power and advance "people power", then that is a good thing and I am for it. If, however, as one might suspect from current NDP positions, and all other political-elite behaviours in the country, only marginally less as advocated for by Carole James and Layton, by sitting on their hands and keeping inappropriately quiet too often, that just means fully getting on board with the ruling class agenda, and a continuation of the so-called "tough love" policies of the Neocons towards the public and the public interest, then clearly we, the working class, poor and homeless, and the broader public will be no further ahead than presently, with either the Liberals or Conservatives. (Nor with the Greens as I read their social platform.)

So when such as Corky or any others within the NDP begin talking this way, playing to the more radical audience, they at least have to be pinned down as to precisely what they mean. In light of the recent NDP record, some healthy dose of skepticism is justified here.

Otherwise we might just be falling into another one of those little "imperfection" things of which GWest has spoken again.

WM, without doubt, if the Tyee ever hands a "most strawmen" award I'm voting for you big guy.

Coyote,

Whenever I hear the phrase "hard decisions" from a politician I know they aren't talking about personal sacrifices.

Nana,
I agree there is not much of a reason for the NDP to not at least ask the question you'd like. Politically I can see why they wouldn't, as the 4th party they don't get a lot of time for questions and they would want to prioritize those that might draw some attention and also they wouldn't get a straight answer anyway and the Lib-Cons would just use the time to bash the NDP's "economic ideas". Still, I too would like to see the question asked.

This brings up another subject though which also gives me a chance to respond to Beacon Hill. CAP should have had some representation in Parliament in the last 20 years if for no other reason than to ask that question. I don't support the NDP calling on Greens to vote for them to keep the Libs out of power. Never would. I want to see more political parties not less. Its why I support pro-rep and STV. You should be able to vote CAP if you want to instead of NDP, an electoral system should serve the people and not act as a barrier against proper representation.

Hey Coyote:

How did you and the Mrs. like the Movie last night...(if you got a chance to see it).

Pretty impressive opening chase scenes eh?... if you did.

Thanks Budd Campbell for the info. on Terry Glavin especially his appointment...it was shall we say illuminating!

Now ain't that the bloody truth. It invariably involves "our", the lower class stratas making the sacrifices.

So it is a legitimate question, of whose "hard choices" are we actually talking here? Their's or our's? And who bears the pain? Them or us?

If this period from the early 80s to now, following upon the heels of the end of the "Post WW2 Prosperity Capitalism Period" has not taught us anything else, it should have at least that a healthy dose of skepticism of ALL party politicans is entirely justified.

Maestro,

I actually thought, allowing for the unbelievability of the opening action scene, which was nonetheless awesome, that it was a quite well done movie, with generally good acting, and a fairly well spun story. No doubt this guy is a much better and more credible, if much, much darker James Bond than all which have gone before. (And it is actually that "darker" James Bond which makes him more believable.)

It was good entertainment, I thought. And unlike many males, I am typically not a big fan of the action genre.

Yeah, it's worth a see-, for it's sheer entertainment value. (And given this real life story of the radiation poisoning of this defected Russian agent in England, there may actually be more than a tad example of art imitating real life in this story. :-)

Yikes!
I'm finding myself nodding in agreement with someone celebrates Michael Ignatieff.
Shove over Terry, and quit hogging the blanket.

Hey, G, I'll join that posse out looking for a Liberal-NDP Coalition.

Thought I had said that, way back when.

It's the Green Party that sets my hair alight ... conniving, double-crossing, deceitful ... somehow bamboozling so many good people into thinking that being green means Being a Green Party ... and from what I read about Germany's experience with a Green Party in government, nothing could be farther from the truth.

So, prepared to wash my mouth with soap afterward for uttering a W.A.C. Bennett truism (reversed): "The Fascist hordes are at the gate! We must unite against them!"

Count me in, G.

BC Mary:

You've certainly got that right. How long are we going to sit back and watch successive Green Party governments ruin our environment, run our health care system into the ground, and prop up a false economy based on consumerism and unsustainable growth? All our recources must go into stopping these monsters.

Its the People's Front of Judaea that I can't stand. Bloody splitters

Actually a pretty good shot at Liberal and NDP supporters, Beacon Hill. One point for you on the old scorecard of inter-party rivalries. :-) I'm still chuckling. (Which certainly doesn't mean that I believe the Greens hold any more Holy Ground than these other vanguard parties within "the status quo system". )

Party loyalties and sentimentality are such a clutter to rational discourse and action, unfortunately. :-)

Gordon Campbell, in Opposition, 1998, asking Corky Evans the above. (from hansard)

I say trust no one...maybe that includes me as I am about to hijack this thread...sorry....

Speaking of "hard decisions" the important part of the above quote is:" at the present rates, treaties would likely consume the majority of Crown ALR -- approximately 2.5 million hectares." hmmm, you think someone spied a silver lining... in the form of "partnerships" that would conveniently enable non FN's to gain access to ALR land for development? Isn't it interesting what is happening in regard to the ALR across this province? Presently in the Campbell government's agreement in understanding with Tsawwassen First Nations land is being taken out of the ALR after Gordon Campbell promised farmers it would not be removed. And Campbell has created for the NDP one of those "hard decisions" that the ever so nice NDP don't like to make...a Sophie's choice between preserving farmland or honouring First Nations treaty negotiations. It's the perfect catch-22 that Campbell has orchestrated here. In one fell swoop, any opposition to removing land from the ALR is blind-sided and all that land is conveniently freed up for all that future "partnering" of developers with FN. Multiply that scenario across BC..and wow! what a real estate bonanza of prime land.

I'll give you the latest ALR move on the little town near me that a lot of us are watching here. (well, actually, ahem, it's called a city now...nothings changed ...just so much more pretentiously "corporate" sounding, you know.) It's all about image now, after all.

contd:

There is a part of Powell River called Wildwood. It has always been the most arable of lands, many Italian families settled here, many fruit trees, community gardens, small farms, beautiful country.

Recently the ALC Commission travelled to town to meet about an application by both PRSC Land Developments (that's a joint venture between the City of Powell River and Tla'Amin First Nations) and Catalyst Paper to exclude parcels of land that each own in this tri-partite from the province's ALR. "Community need" is cited as the reason.. which means...tada...needed "economic development".

The question is who is the so-called needed economic development really for and what could possibly be more valuable than farmland? The other question to ask is who are the people sitting on the AG Land Commission Board that will make this decision?

This size of this ALR application is one of the largest in BC....900 acres but the size chosen for the meeting room left many of the public outside in the hallway..nothing unusual, much of the public here feels they have been left in the the dark about this all along, with little information coming from the city council itself as well. This is beautiful waterfront land and the citizens once again have been refused access to valuble information.

One of the main factors the Commission must look at is how the economic need will be addressed if this land is released...and so at this meeting in the words of our local newspaper "the grand plans" for Wildwood were revealed in a proposal by the president of a company called Yrainucep... which is the word "pecuniary" spelled backwards. Pecuniary by the way means..."measured in money, relating to money." How apt.

The grand plans included, don't laugh as some of the wiser souls in the meeting did: the development of an airport community which would be centered around the building of "an international airport" which will be they said "the most modern and "secure" airport in North America", a five star hotel and convention centre, restaurant, an 18 hole championship golf course, an equestrian centre...60-200 residences bordering the golf course two car garages, residences will have their own airplane hangers so they can taxi their plane right into their own home site, private medical and dental clinics, jets landing 24 hours a day...there's much more... but you get the picture.

Now does that meet the cited need for economic development standards or what? Well, maybe for the privileged foreign few this private gated community is designed for. And remote Powell River will lose valuble farm land, especially important to a remote area as this..and a glorious old and very tall Douglas Fir forest as well...a way of life ripped away.

Now wait...this is where it gets really interesting...in a letter to the editor the president of the Wildwood Ratepayers, outraged by the secrecy surrounding all this, checked out the website of the company making this proposal.."it does not mention one completed project". Then since this company mentioned Gander Nfld....she phoned the newspaper there, the Chamber of Commerce, the BBB, the office of the CEO of the Gander Int. airport. None of them had heard of this company(YDC). Then she contacted a design group also mentioned on the YDC website and they implied that YDC was specifically formed for this Wildwood airport project (which had originally been planned for Sechelt.)

So who is YDC? Anyone out there that can help us?

Is this all theatre carefully crafted for the end effect..to release land from the ALR?

The summation of my personal position on the next election is: Vote by not participating in the democracy fraud, and when and if there is enough of us (already consistently at about 40%, and just about the single largest voting bloc ), we will force the electoral system into an inescapably obvious crisis of credibility. On the other hand, if you are a thumsucker or believer in fairytales, and absolutely have to have a blanket to hold onto-, vote either NDP, Greens or Liberal. They really are not much different, ALL of them.

Anyone but the Conservatives.

And the only real difference between us will be in the manner of voting we chose

Grumpy wrote

Dion compares his dual citizenship with Turner's dual citizenship (British/Canadian) during the brief period Turner was PM. It immediately sounds wrong but really, is it?

This is a really interesting and extremely important issue you raise here, Lynn, because in my view, playing on the desperate need of Natives for a land base and economy that is capable of sustaining themselves and lifting them out of poverty, the government's P3 agenda is really what is at work in the background here.

If we can be hoodwinked into alienating valuable and scarce agricultural land, for example as shipping container storage in this latest Tsawwassen treaty, effectively making Natives a P3 partner in the corporatist agenda, the principle is established that lays the foundation for alienating all our rivers and streams with hydro generation potential, to P3 foreign ownership and/or control, a process already well underway, for example.

Read: Tricked and Treated: The Case of Modern Day Piracy involving British Columbia hydroelectricity and water
, by Peter Dimitrov, at: http://coyote-thepeoplesvoice.blogspot.com/

There is a complex scam underway here, on the part of the BC NeoconLiberals and their corporatist pals, and it involves, in large part, playing on the extreme vulnerabilities and desperation of Natives in this further alienation of public lands to private corporatist beneficiaries. And it appears they are going to do it, like I say, in part by bringing Natives in on the corporate scam, and playing them further off against ourselves. (Divide and rule.)

"Hard decisions", in goddamn deed. They are attempting to place the broad public and any potential opposition between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

The response that is needed, at least which immediately leaps to mind is, there is a need for a comprehensive settlement of claims between Natives and the Immigrant Nation-, which in part includes mutually agreed upon land use provisions, that preserves the land and resource base-, for THEM and US.

There is a slight of hand ruse underway here, and everyone is asleep, including our nice goddamn NDP Opposition in Victoria, either doing the old Rip Van Winkle snooze, or just plain hiding scared. (I suggest it is actually the latter.)

Exactly, Coyote, I wish I had said it so well.

...also agree that people need to pay attention. Is BC to become we just one big gated community for the rich? That services only the rich? What low regard, what disdain is evidently held for the rights (including the right-to-know) of citizens of this province. This is the grand sell-out of this province and this country...it is one big real estate and resources grab...that not one of the political parties has spoken up either loudly or effectively in this regard is truly shameful, not to mention cowardly..that all of them, day after day have let so much slip away and be lost forever...I, too, no longer have any intention of voting for any of them. All of them have shown they lack the integrity, the skill, the leadership and the courage that a pretty precarious future demands.

So you think, lynn, this is the other shoe dropping and the echoes of what will likely happen to the alienated ALR land around Tsawassen will soon reverberate and be repeated all over the province?

I have a very strong suspicion that this is the culmination of a long-term plan whose first act was the sacrifice sale of BC Rail and I have a further strong suspicion that certain lands recently 'sold' as surplus to the continuing needs of that once successful institution (the railway that is) are going to be important bricks in the structure that the premier is building here. I can’t prove it yet – but I think the evidence is capable of being assembled.

Moreover, I think the small army of communications people he has created by fiat is already hard at work on the sales job.

Coyote said:
"One of his observations was, in the public meeting with him I attended, which I didn't pick up on the potential importance of right away was-, that one of the things the NDP is going to have to do, if it is ever going to govern successfully is... Heard this one before? ...be prepared to make, fight for and implement the hard decisions about governing society."
What impresses me about this is that Corky Evans had a public meeting. Campbell's Liberals don't meet with the public, they wouldn't even announce a meeting schedule in the last election. And Campbell doesn't show for the Legislative sessions. He has been on road trips in the last 3 sessions. There's democracy in action.

Lynn, that report is so important -- coming, as it does, on the day when the Tsawwassens have been folded into the Campbell plan to industrialize the Delta farmlands. By setting up the "race-based" fishery, Premier Campbell has provided a cruel distraction into the bargain.

This really looks like part of the sale of BC Rail and Roberts Bank and suggests very strongly that if Basi, Virk, Basi did anything wrong, they were only working within the parameters of the system as they found it.

Much agree, BC Mary, as Coyote says they are playing on "the extreme vulnerabilities and desperation of First Nations" and through this corporate scam, "playing them further off against ourselves."

And notice the ironic twist and change of opinion between 1998 and now by Gordon Campbell on treaty policies. Wonder, wonder, why?! He must have suddenly experienced a corporate Aha! moment.... a corporate light at the end of the treaty tunnel. Neither stance, either then or now, in my opinion, has anything to do with honouring First Nations land claims.

The Opposition could speak up and expose this ruse... once again, what are they waiting for? Both First Nations treaty rights and the ALR deserve to be honoured. As Coyote states:

We keep getting posts here questioning how or why Martin called that election.
Seems to me, that only a few people understand how a minority government has to work!
Look to other countries, and learn!
In many places they hardly ever have a majority situation; so the various parties have to work out strategies about how to make the best of the latest election.
That usually means that two or more parties find common goals and try to govern with that in mind.
That means that nobody gets exactly the platform they campaigned for, but at least part of it will get done.
Then at the folowing election it is quite possible that different coalitions will form, with the plan to work on other aspects of each partys platform.
Perhaps not totally satisfactory, but at least they realize that no party can govern from a minority standpoint, unless they cooperate!
Our politicains have not yet figured that out, and our voters have not demanded it of them either!

And a justified suspicion it is, GWest.And there is a great crime and tragedy at the very core of it, which has the potential not to resolve anything, but drive further divisions between the Immigrant Nation and Natives-, which is to be the effect here, I would predict, whether or not it is the intent. And I have no doubt personally, whatsoever, that is precisely the intent. The crime is the further using of Natives for the corporate interest here, and the tragedy is the land and resource base necessary to us all.

They are a shifty, slimy lot these Neocon Liberals.

And this is the extension over time of what began with the Columbia River Treaty, which alienated that river to US control and benefit, and is now further carried forward with the sale of BC Rail and Roberts Bank, and the effective handing over of control of BC Hydro to foreign (US) corproatist interests. And now that is to be extended further through the means of P3s, to what is destined to be effective foreign ownership and control of our remaining hydro potential rivers and creeks systems. ( The information I get is, here in BC, "...approximately 500 river/creek water systems have currently been granted a water licence for private hydro production or are "in-application" process." Though I can't swear to the absolute accuracy of this information.)

What is emerging, still at this stage, without full disclosure from any government or opposition sources yet, of which I am aware, is still as a result much fragmented and having to be put together by ourselves. But there is enough known and indicated still to make ever clearer a picture of a gigantic State and Corporatist run fraud and betrayal of the country-, into which Natives are now to be apparently portrayed and offered up to the rest of us as kind of patsies-, or the scapegoats who take the heat, while the real corporatist beneficiaries and scamsters of the ruse slide right on by, their power and integrity left unchallenged.

One does have to give them the credit. The do know how to rule in the interests they serve. That we knew half so well how to serve our own.

North of Hope,

I agree brother/sister.

Very true Coyote, and you too North of Hope and Lynn and Mary of course as well.

And yet, although Gordon Campbell seems to be pulling back into the shadows of his 'personal' life more and more with each passing day; you can be sure those 185-odd communications and media-monitoring people, those writers and flak catchers and 'corporate spin artists', those leadership and education professionals who are now on the Government payroll will be working overtime to 'create' the proper positive impression among a gullible electorate too impressed with the 'appearance' of prosperity and well being until it is too late.

That's the kind of work these people do.

Too late for the kind of future all the residents of this wonderful place should have had.

Too late for an Opposition so timid that they send cowering messages to the few in this province who are urging them to take up this battle now.

Too damn late. But not for Gordon’s friends.

We need more public meetings.

We need them now.

Campbell and FN Treaties:

Tough call as to whether Campbell knows whether or not he is playing with fire,...or he knows exactly what he is doing.

Hopefully THE TYEE will write a story on this topic.

The whole 'democracy' is a farce - and the party system is essential to the smoke and mirrors show - more here - http://www.rudemacedon.ca/lgi/can-managed-elections.html

seeing as their has been some discussion on the just signed Treaty out here with the Tsawwassen band, there are even more ramifications then mentioned. the environmental impacts are huge both marine and land. also a clever developer Century 21 got Smart Growth B C {who are supposedly dedicated to preserving agricultural land and habitat} to put on workshops out here. His agenda is to develop the Southlands Land {Spetifore land remember?} by calling it Smart Growth. Out here is some of the best undeveloped land and habitat in the lower mainland, we are going to lose it unless some of us the community can can get enough support and try to stop it. doesn't look like there is too much we can do about the Treaty land now, just hope the Band sees that implications of particpating in what is essentially a P3 partnership.

Once the land is alienated from the ALR, and given the sunset effects of the treaty, it will be gone within 10 years. Not because the Tsawwassen people are disrespectful of their connections to the land but because it is neither fair nor reasonable to expect that they will not make the 'most' in a financial way of what for them must seem to be a chance to redress centuries of benign neglect and racism on behalf of the dominant culture.

Unfortunately, development and capitalistic greed being what it is, the real beneficiaries here are not going to be the people in any kind of a collective or generic sense - the real beneficiaries will be the same corporate honchos who have enabled Gordon Campbell and his gang to sell BC Rail and alienate BC Hydro from what should be its main purpose - among other frauds and boondoggles.

It's not the Band that needs to wake up, it's the whole province of British Columbia and the folks who ostensibly have the duty of reporting on what's going on here who are sleeping.

And of course, "the Opposition". I'm trying to think of a new label for this bunch - they've forgotten how to 'oppose'.

G West here is a title for the opposition “The Slack Asses” and its not going to change . At least not with the bunch that’s there at the present time, why?
Why go out and raise a bunch of shit or get involved in controversies when an ordidiary MLA receives a Base rate of over $75,000 add on all their perks and their up around maybe $200,000, pretty god dam good money just for sitting on their hands. I recall not long ago when a MLA got back into politicks because “there just wasn’t any proper paying jobs out there” Next election Im voting Green 1st hope fully they will restore democracy in Victoria and 2nd teach all those dog fockers in Victoria a lesson, that goes for federal politicks as well, Green both ways

woody m'lad
last time i chek'd dude - the greens were pretty politickl too.

Not to undermine your point. It's a good one. Campbell calls the shots - his little band of clones sings the chorus while Gordon sits in isolated slendour in his condo and the NDP shops.

Once, twice, even three times I'd say it was just a coincidence - not any more - you're absolutely right

It's time you sharpened up that spade of yours and started shovelling, my friend.

"Collaborators" is something that comes immediately to mind, though woody's "slack asses" works just about as well.

Too bad. Watching the public interest in the ownership and control of our province (and country), in its land and resources, go down the tube as it is-, with that old poweless feeling. There would have to be a sudden massive awareness occur amongst the public, and a sudden coming together across many different political lines.

[B]Several months ago in an interview with the Vancouver Chinese Television,I forecast publicly that Stephan Dion would make it as Liberal Leader. Today I will make another forecast, that this very modest man will be Prime Minister of our country ,averting what I believe is a comedy of errors ,that are putting Canada back into the dark ages. When the Conservatives removed for crass expediency the Progressives from Harbers buch of right wing loonies ,they were not joking. Joe Clark was indeed right ,for he saw what many of us are now seeing ,that they must be turfed before they change the face of Canada forever.

That's the kind of work these people do. G West

That's a very important point you are making there, G West...The Ministry of Spin is central in fact to the subterfuge and to the "workings" of Mr. Campbell's agenda. Where would this government and its sponsors be without advertising...without a carefully crafted image to hide the rampant deceit behind?

To get back to Glavin's article, one would have to turn a blind eye to Canada's political history to trust the Liberals to implement progressive policies in the absence of a strong NDP presence in Parliament. The most progressive Liberal Federal governments of the past 40 years--the Pearson governments of the 1960s and the Trudeau government of 1972-74--held office during minority Parliaments in which the NDP held the balance of power. Conversely,the most conservative eras of Liberal rule--the decades of the 1950s and 1990s--were periods of chronic weakness for the CCF-NDP.

Recall how fast Jean Chretien--ostensibly a progessive Liberal--abandoned the Liberals' "Red Book" platform after winning the 1993 election, an election in which the NDP suffered a catastrophic drop in popular support, even losing official party status. With the collapse of the NDP, the Liberals abandoned their solemn pledge to halt the neo-liberal march of Federal policy that had been initiated by the Mulroney Conservatives. Instead, we got NAFTA (which hadn't been formally implemented when the Tories left office), ruinous cuts to health and education transfers, the gutting of the Canada Assistance Plan, deep cuts to UI, and a virtual abdication of the Federal Government's role in environmental regulation.

Dion's accession to the Liberal leadership hardly represents a fundamental change in the nature of the Liberal Party--even though starry-eyed journalists like Lawrence Martin are getting rather carried away, as almost all journalists are wont to do from time to time. I seem to recall that about a year ago, normally rational-thinking journalists were buying the canard that Harper's politics had "evolved." That judgement proved to be premature--not unlike Glavin's conviction that the Liberals have suddenly embraced a left-wing agenda.

Now ain't that the truth.

And thanks for that extremely interesting link Slamdave.

And true it is. This phony democracy, where all are really cut from the same cloth and fundamentally agreed, needs these so-called vanguard parties for the "appearance" of a democracy only. All really serve the same Master in the end, behind the curtain with his/her cash piles and connections, pulling the strings and manipulating the players-, some of whom actually do think even, that because they will be allowed into the Theatre of Parliament, they really have "power".

What a load of crap. They have but the appearance of it again themselves, and only for so long as they know whose voice and interests that whisper in their ear, they really must listen to-, or have the rug of even that appearance pulled out from under them.

And they, the real Puppet Masters behind the scenery of "fools power", that is this bullshitt ruling class controlled democracy sham, really do, do it so well-, for they have fooled most of us for a very long time, and still do very many. But there are indicators too, with even these proportional rep schemes which are being put out there by some, and even here with some growing opinion in Tyee, that these is also kind of an "awakening" beginning to happen.

The actions of these parliamentary/legislature Neocon puppets,
and the failure of even the "appearance" of any real "official" opposition that is fast becoming so stark and obvious, in my view, sooner or later, is going to drive the creation of a "real" street opposition and governing alternative-, sooner or later.

What is, simply cannot be allowed to stand much longer.

Ehhh, Lynn. Good to read ya here. You know I think you are an outstanding and consistently principled political mind. To say nothing of an outstanding woman. ;-)

Somebody up-thread here was talking about snowslides. We keep throwing ourselves down the hill, again and again, in hopes of starting one, eh. B-D lol.

Which was a good metaphor, whoever used it up there.

Gustav
Good to read your words, with which I certainly have no argument. This thread may have been rather hijacked by other matters - but they have a certain urgency about them too.

Surely someone in the Tyee editorial office has assigned a journalist to deal with these events and their implications too - perhaps at midnight there will be a purposeful thread available.

"A happy, hardworking, goods-consuming citizen [is] perfect... Otherwise the wheels stop turning... You're so conditioned that you can't help doing what you ought to do. And what you ought to do is on the whole so pleasant... that there really aren't any temptations to resist. And if ever, by some unlucky chance, anything unpleasant should somehow happen, why, there's always [the drug] soma... to make you patient and longsuffering... to give you a holiday from the facts." Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, 1932

For reasons that should be obvious, the NDP are going to get clobbered by the Liberals in the next election. Perhaps the most pressing reason is the realization on the part of the great majority of thinking Canadians that it is absolutely imperative we rid ourselves of HarBush and his gang of inept neo-cons.

A modest proposal for David Beers:
posters get 6 posting tokens and a maximum word count of, say, 1000 words; after that, they have to move over and make room for other voices. Maybe this is scriptable in php or whatever code these forums use.

Worth reading: "Fake Left, Go Right" - An insider’s take on Jack Layton’s game of chance, by James Laxer from last spring's Walrus mag:http://www.walrusmagazine.ca/articles/politics-fake-left-go-right/

biscotti
why? in the last 24 hours there have precisely 4 posts on this thread. Your suggestion seems a solution in search of a problem.
I've always been suspicious of James Laxer since the days of the Waffle.

G West:
I just get tired of seeing the same names dominate discussion. Perhaps other readers feel the same. Maybe if the verbose posters could step back a bit, a wider range of people might participate.

I enjoyed Laxer's summary of the 1988 Free Trade election, and some of the activists and union people make important points in his article. If the NDP and its supporters can't address them, though, I fear that Harper's Conservatives will find more opportunities against a divided, delusional and ineffective left.

I don't disagree. Moreover, I'm more than happy if other people decide to engage - just couldn't figure how it was relevant on this thread. Seems we pretty much have it to ourselves.

The left in Canada has a real problem, no question. Some of which have been explored on this thread and some of which Laxer addresses.

We truly need electoral reform in this country because, no matter how you slice it, the only voters who tend to get any positive feedback from their participation in the process are Liberals, Conservatives and, in Quebec (which is a special case), the Bloc.

Young people especially are turning off politics for nihilistic pursuits of one kind or another. I don't just mean drugs either. We need to find a way that smaller parties like the greens and the NDP can make positive contributions in the political arena in Ottawa. 50 - 60 percent participation is just not enough and we both know where elitist government has us - both from the Conservatives and the Liberals.

If you have any suggestions for the NDP, I'd like to hear them. Because I'm tired of people telling me that the only consistently idealistic party this country has ever known should fold up its tent and go away.

I just don't believe that's the right approach.

I wasn't suggesting the NDP fold up its tent, just that it take an honest look at the issues. But here are 7 ideas for renewal; I doubt few are new:

Pay less attention to pollsters, spin doctors and back room brass and more to what working class, oops, I mean, "ordinary" Canadians think. Problem is, the strategists the NDP seems to listen to don't seem to be part of the working class. Certainly not the working poor.

Put an end to the simplistic, patronizing party campaign literature and leadership sound bites that say things like "They're wrong on [-fill in the blank with the issue at hand]" - as if the NDP is inherently right, but the masses are too dumb to understand why. It always sounds like "trust us - we know what's good for you." Aaag.

Make peace with the Canadian Auto Workers (it's probably too much to expect an apology to CAW members for expelling Buzz for having the temerity to suggest strategic voting on their behalf!).

Get behind the social movements instead of trying to steer them for electoral opportunities.

Invite cultural workers to contribute their ideas as well as their talents.

Be open to electoral coalitions, instead of opposing them, like in the last BC provincial election when rank and file activists tried unsuccessfully to initiate one between the NDP and Greens.

Make politics fun and attractive to youth. Right now, I can't imagine anyone under 40 wanting to attend a meeting in the Cariboo North riding. But it doesn't have to be this way.

Ok, I've taken up enough space; I'm outta this thread.[I]

biscotti,
Sadly, the NDP usually is right. Not that it does any good. I agree with your point about electoral coalitions, as long as they are written down in advance so that everyone knows their role and their status.

The Liberals, federally, always talk cooperation but they never follow through after the election - once bitten, twice shy I always say.

I'm all for music and fun at political meetings - great idea - but don't limit it to the kind of Stepford wives and husbands that showed up on TV during the recent Liberal leadership convention.

What social movements are you talking about? I haven't noticed a lot of support from anyone for homeless people, or don't they count? As for children and families in this province, I think the NDP did far better for that demographic than the Liberals have – especially given the funds available.

As for Buzz, I'd let him go - I think he's off base and his members, like most union folks, don't really vote NDP anyway. Personally, I'd sever all formal relationships with labour.

Spin doctors...Hmm, I can do without 'em for the most part. I think the NDP did better when organizers went door to door.

When I was a member, some time ago now, every poll I canvassed always went NDP - nothing replaces the personal touch.

I think you have a little transference going on biscotti - that sounds like a Liberal mantra to me.

The NDP has strategists in this province?

News to me!

Cheers. Don't go away mad.

Excellent article. It hits the core of the progressive voters and brings a realistic assesment of the voting implications amongst progressive voters like myself, who has never voted NDP and probably never will.
But, nor is a Liberal vote the way to go if the talk left, act right mentality bothers you.
Here is why the NDP vote is a wasted vote:
-they can never win a majority
-they truly split the left
-they have no presence in the Maritimes
-even less in Quebec
-losing base in the prairie provinces
-do not represent young and new Canadians
-have no new policies or ideas
-criticise the right and the government effectively, but rarely have a concrete plan to alter the status quo
-do not fully support changing the current, undemocratic and archaic FPP electoral system because they realize it would decrease their seat numbers
-they supported (every single NDP MP) Harper's/Ignatieff's reignition of Quebec's "nation"hood (coming from Quebec this is an outrage)

All these facts bring up a very important question: Is the NDP lefting the right as much as the Greens are "greening" all parties?
If you believe strongly in the important global and Canadian issues that are represented by the Greens, I encourage you all to consider your votes with a long-term strategy. View this article from London, ON:
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/CityandRegion/2006/12/02/2591309-sun.html
The point is that if we want true progress, we need to attract the right as much as the left and that traditional politics and economics is what has gotten us in this mess in the first place. With issues as concerning as climate change, no one can advocate for policies that act on social and environmental issues that can attract the right and fulfill the left like Elizabeth May and the Green Party. There is strong BC support base represented within the party structure with Adriane Carr as co-Deputy Leader and Ben West as the provincial representative among others in the shadow cabinet.
In order to vote with a concience and support a truly progressive party and green the other parties, as we have in the London by-election (May came in second over the NDP and the Conservatives with 26%), the most sustainable choice has been and continues to be the Green Party of Canada.

VancouverPointGreen
What about that endorsement of Bugsy Mulroney as the 'greenest' PM? I'd think for Lizzy May (combined with the fact she also worked for Brian) would be a little difficult to live down.

And, what's the Green position on Tax reform?

Earlier, on this thread I believe, I responded to someone's mention of Stephane Dion's dual citizenship with an offhand and not very carefully thought-out response.

I said it didn't matter.

I've thought about it since then, read a couple of things and I've reconsidered.

Of course Mr Dion can do what he wishes and as a non-Liberal I haven't got a leg to stand on in telling him what to do.

But I've changed my mind. He should dump the French citizenship if for no other reason than that it gives the wrong impression. Citizens of this country are Canadians. They should, in the main, be proud of their roots; but the idea of bringing the old arguments and disputes, the old hatreds and resentments and enmities here to this country is something we can't stand any longer.

Too many ethnic groups seem more concerned with identifying with and fighting old battles than they are with creating a NEW HOMELAND here in Canada.

Dion should step up and show the way by dropping the French pedigree.

He should do it at the same time he makes it absolutely clear to some of the ethnic groups who supported his candidacy and voted for him in Montreal that their support comes with no strings attached.

When Bob Rae and Michael Ignatieff made that point, it now appears they may have kissed the leadership goodbye.

The evidence, for anyone who cares, is posted on another Tyee thread How Stars Aligned for Dion about 6 hours before this post.

The media, with the exception of the one article mentioned above here, is being ominously silent on this point.

It's time for MR Dion to make a statement on a very important subject.

So why am I supposed to vote NDP again?

Terry, after all the poliical comings & goings since WW2,with borh major parties practically inditinguishable from one another, as they surrender our resources and social safety net, to US & Multi-National Corporationsyou you do not need reasons from anyone else to vote NDP again.

Just vote with your gut reaction and live with your decision.