Given what you usually post here percy, that's hardly a surprise.

I suppose you loved Harris.

Rae, like Dosanjh and BC's own current Carol James, all typify and speak to a process of "Liberalization" (As in Liberal Party) which has been at work in the NDP for a very long time-, certainly over the course of time since Tommy Douglas in his Saskatchewan heyday. Indeed, these folks and the Party leadership have had a covetous eye on Liberal Party programmatic and ideological positions for a very long time now-, which has now evolved into many of these NDP leading lights actually physically moving over to the Liberal Party. Such that the NDP that is left behind is itself not even so much a "social democratic", let along "socialist" party anymore, as a headless horseman relying on his horse to show him the way home, with one hand limp on the reins and his/her head tucked blind and blinking bewildered under his arm.

But then you can say, that though I have always to here voted NDP, I was never much impressed with them, and merely did so as a desparate choice of the lesser of evils. Which would be correct, I grant.

Still, the evidence of the rightward and ever more servile "loyal and co-operative opposition" drift of the NDP in recent years, since again coincidentally around the time of the failure of Operation Solidarity in 1983 here in BC, and the rise of the Liberal and Conservative/Old Socred Neocons everywhere across the country, along with the evidence of such folks as Bob Rae speaks for itself, and doesn't depend on what one might think of one as myself. To which any serious student of politics with a memory longer than a teenager should be able to attest-, assuming their honesty.

It is time for a "new politic" on the left to emerge in this country. (And you will note that I deliberately did not say "political party".) Which needs to be rooted in the needs, issues and organizations of communities and the people-, and moving/inching towards "the street", with the understanding of a different path to "people power"-, as differentiated from simply more "elitist political party power"; the same old, same old.

The NDP and all such "vanguard" parties, in my view, have run their course, and become either hopelessly marginalized or part of and corrupted by the status quo bourgeois/ruling class dominated political processes to one degree or another. They have all, from the Communists to the Social Democrats and everything in between, had their run and come up wanting. Time for a new look at what we call "left politics" in this country, and with that the strategy and tactics of power, how it is secured and given the broadest possible democratic base amongst the ordinary citizenry. (Again, as differentiated from the ruling class and all the political elites which effectively serve it, regardless of what their intentions started out being.)

I hope Rae does become Liberal leader, it would only serve to show how out of touch with the Left the guy really is. For the guy in the street that doesn't watch the news he won't notice any difference between Rae and Harper governments. They'll both be focused on photo-ops, day to day politics and making speeches in front of CEO's and currency traders in Toronto and New York.

I'm voting for "Flipper."

I think this drift has been seen as "necessary" to secure basic funding. The Libs & Cons have resources among the business community. The NDP has "grassroots". No contest when elections are dominated by who has the biggest warchest........

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/politics/article.jsp?content=20061030_135274_135274
Recent Maclean's article on Bob Rae.

As I have said before, to me it doesn't matter who becomes Liberal leader, the Liberals will not win the next federal election as many still think they need to be punished for past arrogance, corruption and so on, or they still are not trustworthy.

Hopefully though, the Conservatives do not get a majority. Then in opposition (again) the Liberals can begin to rebuild their party and maybe voters confidence!

If Ignatieff gets it then I thibnk the Liberals will be opoosing a majority Conservative government.

Sure he has the right to run for leader but I would not want a PM who had left the country for 30 years!

freebear
I generally respect your opinions and understand (and often agree with) your approach.

I'm no Ignatieff fan - which you'll know if you've followed my thinking (which did change) on the man. But, although I think it's not actually true (you'd need to read Michael Valpy's piece on him in the Globe) that he's been constantly away from here since the 70s, I don't understand why it's a problem.

I'd appreciate hearing why you feel the way you do.

Bob Rae is a class act, and he was right to abandon the party and union members who abandoned him so cruelly in the 1990s.

Rae took the helm in Ontario just in time to get walloped by a debilitating recession. He was young and green as a politician and he made mistakes, but his 'supporters' on the left and in the unions hung him out to dry, rather than helping him or giving him some patience or slack.

The lesson that I as a young university student in Ontario took from that sad episode was that the left is selfish and narrow minded. Who can blame Rae (or Blair or Clinton for that matter) for being more cautiously allied to the centre when leftwing voters eat their young.

This article is nothing but a collection of cheap pot shots at a guy who has devoted himself to public service.

And from the look of these posts, the left will never learn its lesson. Bob Rae may be as close to an NDP prime minister that Canada will ever get.

Eggman
I'm actually pretty familiar with that era in Ontario too and there's something to what you say. But not much. If you take a closer look at the actual percentages of the popular vote I think you'll find that not that many traditional 'leftist' voters deserted Rae for Harris' common sense revolution crap.

I can remember canvassing door to door in Ottawa in the years before Rae formed the government and Ontario is not a leftist province - not by a long shot - it is a very small 'c' conservative place – especially outside the GTA.

And, if you want to start assessing blame for what happened to Rae's efforts and the failure of public understanding I think you can't ignore the role of the media and guys like Johnny Bassett.

He may be the next prime minister but he certainly isn't a Lefty.

Clinton is a left-winger? Says who? What great social programs did Clinton put in place in America as a president? Or does all it take to be a "left-winger" is to say you have more of a conscience than Bush when you implement the same policies?

At least the Conservatives are upfront about what they do. More than anyone can say about Liberals like Rae and Martin.

No doubt there are, I think, many reasons, including the ones you indicate. It's what happens when a "party", especially a left wing party, attempts to function in the absence of a social environment and movements of the people, which are critical to sustain it. (The NDP has for years acted as though all that social progress really required was, that we all vote for it, and for example, forget the class struggle. I have heard this view from them for many years and in many different contexts. In the end, a failure to understand the very dynamic out of which it, as the CCF, originally arose, is now finally killing it, in the absences of the oxygen of that very class and other social struggles.)

And when this happens to you, and is the road you choose to walk down, and your overweening preoccupation is ruling class controlled electoral politics, in the end you are left no choice but to kiss ruling class ass and suck up to the "bourgeoise game" in order to secure funding.

Which drives and alienates a would be "vanguard" party claiming to be "left" ever further from its fundamental sustaining class/social base. It is like alcoholism-, a protracted, numbing form of suicide.

I was there, like I was in the trade union movement, and saw it, like the "labour movement" is still currently doing, by degrees over a period of years cut its own wrists and bleed to death.

Clinton is a lefty?

Shitt. Gimme a minute. I can't stop laughing. ROFLMAO B-D

Alongside these wingnut dupes, the Pope is a lefty fer fux sake. I just can't take these kind of comments serious enough to even reply.

Ehhhh. Good to see ya back, Frank. You know I love ya, bro. :-)

Now they're gonna think we're "fags." B>D

You guys are hopeless. I guess it's pretty easy to sit at home on your computer chucking criticism at people out there trying to do something positive.

I didn't say Clinton is a 'lefty' but he certainly had some progressive ideas. He tried to reform the entire US healthcare system. And if he didn't face a hostile Republican majority in both houses of congress over six of his eight years, he would have likely done more.

I don't know who I should be more upset about, the rabid right wing Fox-News-watching rednecks of the world or you guys: the navelgazing self-satisfied lefties.

Get out in the world and do something good instead of this online intellectual masturbation.

Oh please please be more upset at us than Fox. It would increase my self-satisfaction level three-fold.

Just got back from saving starving kids in Africa did ya?

Hey Coyote, are we having the big "unite Canada's Left under Ignatieff" party at my place or yours?

By the way I was thinking of jettisoning everything I believe in and becoming a Bob Rae supporter since he'll do everything Harper would do but write a book and say he's sorry afterwards.

Doing something positive? Chasing after power and money is doing something positive?

What could be easier than blogging from home? How about sitting at home believing that a bunch of articulate, well-funded, silver-spoons are going to end child poverty?

I think its great people can indulge to such an extent in self-delusion, its why Don Cherry made it on to the Greatest Canadian list isn't it?

Hey, Ron Erwin is a friend of mine.

The leadership forum doesn't appear to be working.

No leadership forum. What a drag.

Loved Stephane Dion's comment that there was more culture in a bowl of yogurt than the conservative party! Sometimes it feels good to give a childish poke at the big bully.

Globe and Mail poll shows Rae winning the leadership race. If so, I think we can expect a conservative majority come election time.

aalborg,
My money's still on Ignatieff - not that I like the guy - but I think Rae is a dead letter in Harper country. Says something about the Globe's readership I'd say.

I liked Dion but I think, of all the candidates, the one I'd be most likely to trust (as if you could ever trust a politician any more) was Ken Dryden.

Maybe we can turn this into a leadership forum.

I just commented over at the leadership forum and when I hit post this page came up. Oh well.

As much as I love leadership conventions, no matter what party, I feel a real sense of doom this time around. Much like I did when Mulroney was voted leader of the conservatives, way back when. I'm still not over that. I expect to be over this Harper thing sometime in my next life. I'm just going with the cheap little potshots each candidate is giving the CRAP guys. I need something to take my mind off the doom and gloom which is our future.

Personally, I like Stephane Dion and Gerard Kennedy. All the candidates have good qualities, but, sadly, it will all come down to who has the most charisma, good looks, best friends etc. and quality be damned. So how did Harpo win then?!

Yeh! The leadership forum has disappeared - bad child I guess - never did work. Richard appears to have headed for the hills too.

I don't know which channel is more annoying, maybe we could talk about that?

Just learned that Gary Collins has quit, suddenly, as ceo of Harmony airways.

Could the disappearance of the forum be a sign?! From on high? The born again evangelicals, (and all their sheep), from the CRAP side of The House must be praying all over this land tonight. The lights will be burning bright in those big ol' evangelical churches. Singing and praising Jesus. Maybe it's working.

I only watch CBC so can't contribute much to the discussion on various talking heads. I choose Mansbridge. Much like voting really. Choose the lesser of the evils.

Yeh, me too. I actually though Belinda Stronach was doing quite well. Didn't come across as a dog to me, or a bitch for that matter.

I like Chantal Hebert's commentary - and her style - for obviously not having one - a style I mean.

aalborg
You still interested in that yahoo group?

Can't say that building success on the default failure of others, or voting to satisfy ego over whats best for the nation is the way I'd go personally...
Can't say that anyone currently compares to the Republican Harper in politics either, or that NDP and corporate voids in dialogue are also good for the country or the party, either. But then again, you are entitled to your own opinion, as I am mine.

I've got an opinion on it as well, if I can weigh in, here. I just took in an interview with Iggy and Iggy mentioned when he was a Liberal delegate himself 25 years ago. His remark? "I knew then that the Liberal party was the party I wanted to lead Canada in the future to come."

If this is the case, then why didn't he stick around? Why didn't he become more actively involved sooner? And what made him think so long ago, that he was worthy of leading this nation beyond the clear and sizable ego he has today, if he wasn't outright full of shit to begin with when he said it? My op is that I have no love for a man who effeminately waves to the crowd like an aristrocatic queen.

G, I've seen some major failures within this Lib convention that make me shake my head and really wonder. Workshop policy wastes of time, a Howard Dean speaker choice (of which I can't say is appropriate considering Harper represents Republican values and Dean is an obvious Democrat) that polarizes U.S. support and policy influences within Canada at the wrong place and wrong time rubbing Canadian federalists the wrong way... but the most upseting fiasco was the "one member, one vote" motion that was closely voted down by only 500 out of 5,000 delegates. This was a complete organizational blunder for what was the second most important issue to deal with in the convention. Go grass root democratic and give the popular Ken Dryden's of the world a clear chance to lead a nation and perhaps even the best chance the Liberals had for a majority... or stick with the same old insider same "o". Inept. Thats the only word I have to describe the way this one went down. Major reform was needed in the way leaders are chosen from candidates and it didn't come.
:-(

aaborg:
I felt the same dread off and on all year with the Libs getting the wrong guy in there, for what its worth. And the same excitement with the convention, when it comes right down to it. I've always felt strongly that Dryden and Dion were the best picks for this country. Kennedy could even join them, but the big question is what kind of support No. 1 and 2 will get in the second ballot. I still think Iggy and Rae will stall. They are both too knew to the party, and both too polarized to grow past the second ballot. I see them as neck and neck at 25% each, and falling from there to Dion, Kennedy and Dryden support. Who's the next PM? I'll pick Stephane Dion in 5 ballots, with an outside chance that it will go six ballots, total.

Belinda doesn't bug me, much. Speaking of style though, I thought she could do better than the blue sweater and black shirt.

Chantal Hebert is great. I bet chances of sitting down with her over a coffee and a timbit would be a lot more interesting than with Belinda. But, considering the alternative....imagine having to have coffee with rona the robot or diane finlay? Doesn't bear thinking about.

Is the yahoo group the one G West mentions occasionally? I've been away a lot and not online much. That isn't going to change for awhile so will give it a pass for now. But thanks.

One and the same group,aalborg. Yah, I like Chantal as well. Smart journalist.

yep same one - that's too bad.

I just had a blackberry conversation with Chantal Hebert. I'd asked her why no one had suggested the possibility that Rae would throw in with Ingatieff. They were great friends in college - roomies I think.

She said she'd couldn't tell if it was a possibility - I think it is.

You're right about Belinda's costume btw

sorry abt the spelling - it's late

Here's some 'cheery' news, maybe Stephane Dion could use it tomorrow:

A research team drilling in the frozen continent has recovered three million years of climate history, New Zealand newspaper The Press reported today.

An analysis of sea floor samples near Scott Base suggested the Ross Ice Shelf had collapsed before, probably suddenly.

Scientist Tim Naish said the sediment record gave crucial evidence about how the Ross Ice Shelf would react to climate change.

"If the past is any indication of the future, then the ice shelf will collapse," he told the newspaper.

"If the ice shelf goes, then what about the West Antarctic Ice Sheet? What we've learnt from the Antarctic Peninsula is when once buttressing ice sheets go, the glaciers feeding them move faster and that's the thing that isn't so cheery."

Antarctica stores 90 per cent of the world's water, with the the West Antarctic Ice Sheet holding an estimated 30 million cu km.

In January, British Antarctic Survey researchers predicted that its collapse would make sea levels rise by at least 5m, with other estimates predicting a rise of up to 17m.

Mr Naish, a sedimentologist with the Institute of Geological and Nuclear Sciences, said the team was retrieving a detailed history of the ice shelf.

"We know from the Larsen Ice Shelf (which collapsed on the Antarctic Peninsula in 2002) that they go extremely quickly," he said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20840754-23109,00.html#

Rae just won't work as PM material. I know I harbour unjustified nigglings in the back of my head that he was an NDPer, which puts me off. Not fair I know, but there it is. I think the big voting populace in Ontario haven't forgotten or forgiven him for the time he was their Premier. He won't win over any of the Albertans, the smart ones, who have had it with Harper. They won't move to the Liberal side for him. Not that Alberta counts for a lot when it comes to votes, but I was hoping for at least one Liberal seat there. Now that Harper is sucking up to Quebec, his fortunes are rising in that province. Rae isn't going to swing them around. I don't even consider BC when it comes to elections. We are such flakes here.

I'm all about doom and gloom, I know. But my instinct, which never fails me when it comes to big ticket items, is screaming it's all over but the crying. Cry we will when Harper scores a majority. My ace in the hole is my dual citizenship. Yeah, I'm all for being able to bail when faced with the nightmare of a Harper majority. Bush has tanked and for awhile I thought we would be safe. Now though, I realize Harper's ego is too big to consider that fact. Like Bush, he thinks he knows better than those he serves. He's a cunning, sly SOB and it's going to be his way or the highway.

Blackberry conversations with Chantal are just about as good as having a coffee with her! Lucky you.

Email the 'cheery' news to rona the robot. She'll get around to it in 2050 and blame the Liberals for allowing it to happen.

aalborg:
My predictions are as follows:

Finlay and Volpe are out before the second ballot, leaving six delegates left with these numbers in mind.
First No. Second No.
Iggy 29.3% 25 - 33%
Rae 20.3% 18 - 22%
Dion 17.8% 18% - 22%
Kennedy 17.7% 16% - 19%
Dryden 4.9% 4 - 8%
Brison 3.9% 4 - 6%

My feeling on it is that Iggy holds his support firm at 29%, Rae remains flat at 20%, Dion hits 20% or more depending on endorsements, Kennedy comes in low at 16%, Dryden holds his own, possibly even gains (but I'm suspecting my own bias here) and Brison gains a point to 5%. In other words, I don't see a whole lot of movement, other than Dion continuing to pick up momentum in bits and pieces and Rae, Brison and Dryden improving fractionally.

What can change these second ballot votes tremendously is an early endorsement by a heavyweight. A former PM endorsement can change everything. If Chretien endorses anyone, it will be Dion and that's heavily possible. Asked what he thought of Martin as PM, "he wanted Martin to win, to back a winner, and Martin lost." Telling, isn't it?

If Chretien believes Dion will need help before the second ballot to stop Iggy, he will endorse Dion. I doubt that it will happen until after the second ballot, but I could be wrong. Chretien backing Dion is almost a certainty for me upon reflection at some point tomarrow and Chretien won't wait past the second ballot.

Martin could endorse, but I don't expect it unless... unless he's an anyone but Iggy or Rae. If that happens, Martin could also endorse Dion (man, it sure would be nice if he endorsed Dryden, what a message that would send) but I doubt it. If either PM endorses Dion, Dions support will surge and its likely to come from Iggy's base more than anyone else, and possibly steal a point from every other candidate to boot. An endorsement from either former PM could make Dion the frontrunner and if that happens, Iggy and Rae are both dead in the water, relegated to kingmakers at best.

Assuming endorsements don't come from former PM's, Brison is likely to get the bump. Who will Brison support? I'm guessing its Dion more than anyone. Brison will back the percieved winner, most especially if Iggy loses support after the second ballot.

Without a PM's endorsement to the candidates, Dryden's endorsement then becomes more critical. If Dryden endorses Kennedy and he is likely to... Kennedy could jump past Dion setting Dion up for a bump on the third ballot.
If this happens and Dion endorses Kennedy, then Kennedy creeps past Rae, picks up Rae support and Kennedy wins.

Will this scenario sit well with Chretien? Not a chance. Chretien will try to trump Kennedy's chances to move past Dion before it ever gets off the ground. If Dion sneaks ahead of Kennedy or Rae at this point, he will win hands down. I highly doubt Rae will support Iggy. In fact, I highly doubt that anyone will support Iggy. And with half of Iggies support coming from Quebec, a PM endorsement to Dion would seriously hurt Iggy more than anyone else.

Dion is everyone's second choice and the first choice of the former leaders of this country. He picked up an extra 1.6% from ex officio's and Volpe defectors, a gamblers tell. He is also from Quebec, the place where every other PM has come from since Trudeau. My prediction? Stephane Dion as the next prime minister of Canada. Rae could support Iggy... won't happen. Dion wins with early Chretien endorsement in 4 ballots. If I'm wrong about a Chretien endorsement, Dion takes a little longer, creeping ahead on every ballot and with a final nod from Rae, takes it in 6. I would be shocked if Iggy gets endorsements from the candidates or PM's.

What ifs?

What if Rae wins? Weak Lib minority with a ruthless battle in Ontario. It would be the most fun to watch, but the least likely to happen. Rae is simply too new to the Liberal party and too well remembered by Ontario for his Rae years. Whether it was his fallout with carmaker unions or the infamous "Rae days", Rae would without a doubt be the most entertaining leader against Harper. In debates, I would have to think that Rae would cut Harper to pieces but will it tranform into Ontario votes? Enough for a weak minority, I think.

What if Kennedy wins? Anyone's guess with this one. He could end up a Joe Clark if looking inexperienced and lacklusture in debates or end with a sweep in Ontario and close to a strong minority government, if not a majority outright.

What if Iggy wins? Harper eats him alive and retains a razor thin minority. If anyone thought Iggy would be formidable, they'd better think again. Iggy is far too inexperienced and far to... odd? (never could get over that Queen Elizabeth wave of his)

What if Dion wins... and likely will. Strong minority government. The Libs have to have support in Quebec, or sweep Ontario in its entirety to form a majority government. It won't happen with Dion, as Eastern as he is. But he will fare well against Harper. Dion is just... to likeable. Dion could steal 5 seats from the Cons out west, a few from federalist seats in Quebec, 15 or 20 more in Ontario, and there you have it, a minority government.

If the Liberals weren't so... opportunistic, power hungry, full of insiders and had a more democratic process from the grass roots... they would have elected the one candidate that could have pulled off an actual majority. Ken Dryden is that loved and respected. Not going to happen. This man is the most real of the bunch. His failure to win looms large in my own view of the Liberal party failing to spot a winner. I never expected the Liberals to really have it together. But this one... this one personally hurts. Somethings wrong with the Liberal voting system including the media, when men like Dryden don't do better than 5th. So much has to change within the Liberal party. Electorate reform and change in leadership is paramount to their repeating their power filled history.

Who would be best for the country itself? In this order, Dryden, Dion, Kennedy, Rae and lastly, Iggy.

7:00am
Can't sleep. Maybe I just came to my senses? Well... enough to think that Chretien won't be much of a factor after all (although I wouldn't put anything past the old fart). This party needs to renew. Shadows from old ghosts won't help. As well, I'm inexperienced at watching Liberal conventions. The last few were really no brainers, with very little competition. When the last Lib convention was close, it was before my time. Nevertheless, even with Brison and Volpe offering support to Rae, I feel Dion will have the momentum in the end.

And the Dryden factor... he might just keep his choice to himself. What a class act this man truly is. Let it be known to anyone who bashes the Libs as a whole as all entirely corrupt and such, that they are bashing the likes of Ken Dryden... and that's kind of slow.

I watched the convention speeches last night.

Other than perhaps Kennedy....seemed like pretty thin pickings in LIEberal land.

I liked CBC Rex Murphy's discussion of Iggy's "emininence" factor vs his " novelty " factor. Iggy front - end loaded his speech with his rather long video...rather clever. In my view Iggy fills the P Herr Trudeau addiction void to those LIEberals yearning for the good ol' Trudeau days (???).

I wonder if anyone picked up on Rae's steak and vegetable joke ? Come back to haunt him? Seems to me Rae is a candidate rather desperate and treading water. Rae also looks like one addicted to politics and can't " Just Say No " . I guess his speech and the style employed is making him look more folksy and try to relate to the average Joe and Jane. No cigar !

Dion ? unless some run up the middle fluke...sorry, Canada has already had (2) Quebec - rooted PM's consecutively ....even the
LIEberals must surely realize that ain't kosher in Canada...The natural governing party made those rules way back.....correct?

PS Maybe I misread this, but it appeared to me that almost every leadership candidate's OWN delegate/supporters were quite top heavy with NON - visible minorities...ie mostly of people of European-ish background.

If Chretien endorses anyone, in my view he won't, but if he does, it'll be Bob Rae.

His brother John and Chretien have been thick as thieves forever - remember?

Oh Boy :

Check out Ujjal Dosanjh over in Bob Rae's camp....lets start " LOSING NDP PREMIERS" 1/2 - way house...the Federal LIEberals.

Check it out! Dion/Kennedy unites!

The only counter I see with Rae and Iggy is if they unite to defeat them. Will either Rae or Iggy step down to support the other? I would be surprised that either man has the capacity to willingly give up the chance for power on their own, than to share it. But you never know!!! I've been suckered all morning with whats happening. Brison's support of Rae surprised me. So was Drydens.

Kennedy's move was no surprise. What now? If Iggy and Rae don't marry, Dion will likely win.

Chretien will stay out of it, Al. His legacy will hurt more than help. What was I thinking last night?

Note to Kennedy:

BAD Move...what were you thinking ??? ...unless its to set up a FINAL showdown.

Good media point: can some of these Candidates carry their own Provinces federally... especially Rae...the " tires were kicked" once before.

Otherwise,...Looks like an " Anybody but Iggy" run up the middle.

Kennedy's move was wise, I believe maestro. His influence is much stronger before this next ballot, than after it and I doubt that Kennedy would catch him anyways. The numbers seem small, but its not considering who's left and where they stand.

Agreed Brain:

Some of these Ex - politicos like Jean C. will end up as more gentile "statesmen" and need to distance themselves as part of the process. The blood flow from Paul Martins' knives have almost healed on ol' Jean.

Jean can tit-for tat use Paul as one degree of separation and claim "it wasn't Moi's fault we are in Opposition" .

John Rae has already worked a deal behind the scenes - Rae will go to Ignatieff and Ignatieff wins on this ballot. Dion's Quebec support is still soft because of his connections to Adscam - he hasn't a hope without Quebec and the back room wins - as always with the Liberals.

Chretien had no love for Dion yesterday. "I wanted to support a winner and Paul lost." The old fart was a touch cold on the matter.

What I'm wondering is if Bob Rae gets bumped on this next ballot, who will he endorse? Iggy? Likely. But I've been suckered so many times this morning.

Even if Rae supports Iggy and Iggies face sure brightened 2 hours ago when they shook hands at the floor... even if Rae supports Iggy, his influence might not be enough. If Kennedy's support for Dion is firm, they stand with 40% combined. If Bob can't firm support for Iggy, and I'm skeptical, Dion wins even with Bob playing kingmaker. Ideally for the party, it would be best for the Libs future if Bob supported Dion instead of Iggy if Bob goes down and its likely after this third ballot.

All I know is that Stevo is on his knees praying for a Rae win. He'd just love to campaign against the NDP.

( Sorry, a bit dazed/confused by Belinda Stronach's make-over ).

Brain:
Kennedy to me folded a bit early...he was close with Dion...I guess my basic inference is the guts/cajones factor...which is important.

I think he may have strategically folded his tent to park his votes in a neutral holding pattern....not trying to piss off either Iggy OR Rae.

The TOP leadership candidate has barely 1/3 of the total delegate votes after the 2nd ballot.... = Horse trading mode.

I figure that this will then quickly leave the "neutral mode" on an upcoming ballot and enter the " Red Light District " which I am sure most know that of which I am implying.

Other Downside: Its very disheartening to see old hockey heroes enter this political arena.

Can't see Bob crossing over to Iggies camp until this next ballot is counted.

After? Absolutely. This fix was in before all of this, Alchibiades, you know how it is. But will it work? Will Bob hold enough weight with his support? I'm betting its too bitter a pill to swallow at this point. 500 walk from Rae's pick and... but what can I say? I've been humbled with my own picks this morning. (and I'm still picking Dion to win!)

Hang in there. Dion was my fav from the beginning. But this is politics and these are Liberals - all they care about is the machine - and power----Just like pee wee and Cappy - oh - and Ron.

Just heard from Chantal - she said, and I quote:
Don t know. Easier if ignatieff decided he can t win and switched to rae maybe. But we will see before the day is out.

Maybe the reformers will win and change things! :-)

Michael Ignatieff - 1,491 (31.6%)
Bob Rae - 1,132 (24.1%)
Stephane Dion - 974 (20.8%)
Gerard Kennedy - 884 (18.8%)
Ken Dryden - 219 (4.7%)

There are now three left. Dryden has endorsed Rae. Kennedy has endorsed Dion. If Kennedy's support goes 70% Dion, Dion should get 1600 votes. This would put him in first place, and thats not counting how many Dryden supporters support Dion. Who gets bumped? Likely Rae. Whatever support Iggy will get will be tell tale. I see a showdown between Dion and Iggy with Bob throwing his support to his old friend, but only after he's already finished third. One thing is certain. There will be very little in the way of a spread between Iggy and Bob.

Man, that convention sounds like a rave!

I'll be very surprised if the final ballot doesn't have Ignatieff on it; and, given that, I'll be even more surprised if he doesn't win. From a power point of view pee wee eats Dion in a federal campaign and I think the back room knows it.

Overall view:

The LIEberals have no "decent" old guard that can also distance themselves from Paul Martin.

The "fresh faced"( and wet behind the ears ) may fool themselves internally,...but will be their Achilles Heel once the pedal hits the metal..ie in Parliament, in Opposition(current status). Harper seems to be learning the lessons of which I doubt the current LIEberals are attending the same classes.

Kennedy may have bridged it with not much baggage, if any. Maybe try next time.

Dion may be the " Franco Kennedy" but Stephan's " deer in headlights " won't serve us well. Dion reminds me of a Chretien, albeit more sophisticated and fluent. Maybe current PM sensed the Dion factor and did that "Quebec Nation" thing as a shot across any potential Francophone bow and neutralized it just enough.

Chantal might have a point. I bet Iggy support would go more for Dion than Rae. It could be, now that Bob has decided to go for it, a position where Dion will attract the needed votes from Iggy or Rae to win. We can spin it any way we like... Iggies Ontario support can't support Rae, Iggies Quebec support is only to happy to support Dion... or it could be warm to Rae and cold to Dion.

On the other hand, Rae support might not be able to back Iggy. Iggy didn't grow much on that last round, not like a front runner should. Whats his name, the fat guy, the bull shitter, MP Dennis Coderre, Iggies organizer looks worried. (never liked that guy)

Iggy will be there in the end, with Dion. But I disagree with you, Alchibiades, with who stacks up better against the Republican.

I think the west is an essentially racist society - hates Quebec and Quebecers - which is why pee wee was so desperate to get the Quebec 'nation' thing off the table early because he knows he needs 20 seats from PQ for a majority.

Dion won't draw flies in the prairie provinces and BC will vote either NDP or Green next time.

Therefore the liberal organizers and back room buddies figure Ignatieff is the right horse in a race with pee wee. He has growth potential in Quebec where Dion has baggage.

My view.

By the way, you're right about that business over the Liberals and the way they've stuck with the delegate system. It was wrong - but typical. Bay Street wants to stay in control - as always.

A little story from 'way back.......my Dad (born in Hogtown, moved to Winnipeg) couldn't stand "froggies". Then he re-joined the military (1958), and his first posting was "northern" Quebec ( http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.ville.rouyn-noranda.qc.ca/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRouyn-Noranda%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG )
Within a month, one of his best friends (to this day) was one of those "froggies"........

That is why I place ease of communications/transportation in this country amongst the highest of priorities.

It's like being naked on the subway, to be one of these candidates.
Not being liberal, I like Dion. If you look at his dogged history of fighting for a united Canada, you have to respect this man.
Bob and Iggy are fighting an uphill battle right now. No history, or bad history for both of them.
Stephane is a clear alternative to Harper. Both on the environment and Quebec.
The question is how Dion will go down in his home Province.
We know 50% plus would support him in Quebec.
I am not being partisan, I am being logical, Dion is the best man out there.

Absolutely Rick W.
Same thing happened with my dad - born Saskatchewan - did the 1940 - 45 grand tour with the Canadian Army - best bud with a peasoup from the Outaouais until he died.

Unfortunately, not that many people from his region of the prairies made the same mind changing pilgrimage.

If we could convince the Francophone snowbirds to come to Victoria instead of Boca Raton we'd have a different country.

Not to change the subject - for long at least - but it's just been announced that some kind of secret peace deal was worked out with the Taliban in some parts of Afghanistan.

WHere will that put pee wee and Hillier relative to their determination to kill the scumbags?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/02/world/asia/02afghan.html?hp&ex=1165122000&en=9f1cbff64133a7eb&ei=5094&partner=homepage

here's bit of it. Now wouldn't it be great if what is it, 40-odd Canadians died for this:

My man Dion is going to win. That's the best thing for Canada. I want the two most smartest men in Canada as being our choice for the next PM. Dion/Harper, I couldn't be happier.
But Iggy would have been an easier opponent for Harper to face. Champagne Liberal as he is.
Dion is real at least, I have respect for him. He will be a hard person for Harper to face.

Your man, Ron? So you're a Liberal after all. If you think Dion is the guy to face Harper I'd say you're actually scared of Ignatieff.

Its not quite that bad, Alchibiades. Sure there are crazies out West. But they are everywhere. There is no market cornered on stupidity.

IMAC:

This is the first post I've been able to agree with you fully on! :-) You've kind of made my day, buddy.

Ok, predictions anyone? Percentages? Will Rae support anyone? Noone? I really thought Rae would get more than 28.5% Kennedy's support stood firm, too. Iggy? Not growing fast enough.

Ralph Goodale flipped over to Dion, I hear as well. That could make a difference of sorts. Is this drama? Is this hype? People won't want to get rid of the old convention style hall. But I believe there is still a way to have a hybrid of convention for leadership and one member, one vote. More than ever, people will seek it within the Liberal party, a hybrid of both. Looks like Hedy Fry and Lloyd Axeworthy joined Dion as well.

Two in a row! Ron, you're name is getting temorarily big with me today! Why, I might even brag you up before the surprise wears off. Buddy! Pal! :-)

Ah Yes:

RE: the last ballot.

Harper must think Christmas came early.

Two intellectuals to choose from.

Old baggage(Dion) ...who I think is a decent chap....and a neophyte(Iggy) who I think isn't a bad person either.

However, this is blood n' guts politics.

BOB RAE baggage factor was tossed from the Island in " Le Canadian political Survivor".

Interesting feature in todays VANCOUVER SUN about deer, wolves and survival of the fittest ( ie NEW)theories...recommended reading...simply apply it over here.

Translation: I don't think these LIEberals have the slightest clue as to what they are doing. I guess ol' Chuck Darwin would cross - theorize on this.

PS I wonder what Jack Layton is thinking ...

Prediction:

Whoever wins..." They " won't last long. Likely less than ol' Paul did.

I'm betting on the nice guy finnishing first. Dion's baggage, maestro? Don't see it. I just got to call you on that one. Examples?

Prediction. Dion wins a strong minority.

Dryden is wearing Green. Finlay, Goodale, Kennedy, Iggy shouldn't get much support outside of Ontario and Quebec. 3 ballots and he still hasn't achieved the 35% he promised. It doesn't look good for Iggy. If Rae supporters split, Dion wins. I'll give Dion a 5 point spread with small money and a win with money large.

Alchi; I have no hidden agenda. I support Dion because of who he is. It's not about partisan politics. It doesn't come down to who can beat Harper, it's about the debate we Canadians will have when Harper and Dion set the agenda for the next election.
These two intellects will strike a contest that will benefit Canada.

yeah, yeah, yeah!
big deal, like who cares which lieberal wins?
The entire network has been tied up all day, as if nothing else is happening in this world!
This is merely a selection of who that particular party happens to want as leader, like who cares? Who wants to vote for that party anyway?
Voters must have learned from the past and drawn some conclusions, like that any party that dependes on contributions from business, is not working for them!

Brain:

Dion's "baggage" is simply being a previously elected Federal Liberal. The added taint is being from Quebec. Right or wrong.....relevant or irrelevant... I simply see this as a NON asset..or better translated a handicap.

If Dion wins...that's a trifecta of Quebec Federal Liberals " who would be PM ". Based on this, I think the Liberals have done a serious brain fart if Dion wins...it simply pisses off the West. It will be interpreted as " Federal LIEberal business as usual ".

( Also, keep Hedy Fry at bay with a crucifix ....PLEASE !!!! )

Dion has ultimately slipped in as the dark horse leadership candidate...for whatever reason. It's simply based on the given candidates, which is not often synonymous with THE best candidates.

When Kim Campbell won way back when...some mused it a set up....she was a scapegoat...to set up for later battles to be won. As I write this before the FINAL ballot is announced...victory with a small "v" is not the same as "V"ictory.

Given the playing field is down to (2)candidates ..this is now a battle of the old guard VERSUS the new guard. This may play out much like the NDP,a crucial point in the fork in the road as to the future, perhaps even survival.

PS Maybe Fed NDP's Layton is smiling even more than before.

More bombs in Bagdad, the globes melting, not much new worth calling news. If the world stops spinning becuase of a Lib convention, I can take it. (ok, ok, I've been a political junkie looking for this fix all week)

I'd rather take money from Can corps, than U.S. corps and the Republicans like the Cons do. And U.S. church cheques to boot. And is any other political party in Canada above it all in terms of taking dough from business? Nope. Business as usual.

For what its worth, I can donate 5 grand tomarrow to someone who is merely running for an MP seat. Should that be considered as bribery too?

The only way we can get rid of private and personal donations is if the Government of Canada jacks up support of votes to parties in the tune of 3 to 5 dollars a vote, depending on how cheap it can actually be done on the sly. Political machines take money, bucko. Its just how it is.

Have to disagree with you on that one. While its true, Liberals keep spitting out Quebec leaders, English Canada can stomach this one. He's a come back kid. An underdog. Huge support came from Kennedy for him. Dion brings a new youth, a new look, a new feeling, a ground up vibe and that has resonance. With Dion winning, the opposite has happened.

The insiders and hacks never supported Dion. The media, Bay street, and insider hacks pimped Bob and Iggy but big. Dion is about to win, I believe he will win anyways at this point, but the big point is, he is about to win on a $700,000 campaign. Bob and Mike spent 2 million each.

No, there's a major shift of change within the Liberal party today. Can't help but be good for Canada in my view.

Dion's resume' seems to be indicative of a Quebec Federalist. His usefulness to the Federal Liberal party is Quebec - centric...ie keep them "le ' votes " comin' Stephan baby mais oui !!!

Our UNoffical PM...Aline' Chretien brought Dion to Jean Chretien's attention. Martin as PM dropped him and then brought him back...hence Dion, in my view , is simply a joker/pawn in the Federal Liberal deck when the power card game involves Quebec.

He, as a Federal Liberal Cabinet Minister was given the Environment portfolio... which is basically a "go green" ethereal touchy - feely often short on pragmatism .

Again, Dion = nice guy, but perhaps he should be given the Francais version of the Peter Principle and perhaps he has maxed out and doesn't know it. Maybe Dion is also the Liberal answer to the PC's Joe Clark run in the late 1970's and early 80's. I see many parallels.

"Intellectual" Federal Liberals (no names mentioned of course )have continually failed most of Canada, yet they seem to come from the same neck of the woods. History..learn from...or ELSE be doomed to sequels ad nauseum.

Alcibiades:
Perhaps the British have had enough?

Back to election central....I prefer Dion over Iggy (although that means agreeing with IAMC) But maybe it's time for less bombast on the top:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053084/

“Unity, sovereignty, justice: the three fundamentals. Everything else is detail,” Ignatieff said, according to the speech posted on his Web site.

Through much of the past decade, Ignatieff has treated global warming as just another detail. He won some environmentalists’ support by proposing a carbon tax to try to reduce the use of fossil fuels, but one doesn’t get the sense from his campaign documents that he is as engaged as Dion in addressing the twin threats of global warming and protecting Canadians from looming energy-price shocks.

As Dion pointed out in his paper, a flat carbon tax won’t be much of a disincentive as energy prices rise, making it a “mere nuisance” for large producers. Dion argues that a better solution is a government-backed carbon market, with absolute emission caps for industry by 2012. The government would buy carbon credits, creating a market for sellers who take steps to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions. He estimates this could save 75 to 115 megatonnes of carbon emissions annually from 2008 to 2010.

Dion’s plan is a terrific start, but it’s far from perfect. His suggestion of a $2,000 tax credit for highly efficient vehicles is inadequate to offset the current price differential between hybrid and nonhybrid cars. Dion’s plan also offers just a penny per kilowatt-hour in subsidies for low-impact renewable energy, which doesn’t bridge the price gap between coal-fired electricity and energy created from wind or the sun. In addition, Dion’s platform is exceptionally weak on public transportation.

http://www.straight.com/article/who-should-be-crowned

He's weak on transportation because the East is further ahead. The amount of money in donations to his campaign compared with the two NWO candidates, Rae and Ign.tells a big story.

I feel kind of dumb missing being outside today, but I can't leave until I hear the outcome.

RickW
Certainly looks that way. One day the Taliban are spawn of the devil - next day, not so much!
I'm a dion fan too - but I fear it means we get pee wee and a majority government and that scares me more than iggy does.

Progressive people live in hope that the neaderthals won't take over entirely. Can you imagine Ron Erwin if Harper ever does get a majority?

That's something to sober a drunk man and scare a gay guy straight.

Yep:

It IS a Trifecta...Viva la NON difference.

pS So..TYEE dudes and dudettes...an early election ???

Does Ron need a "sweller" head?

Harper's best strategy now would be to precipitate an immediate election, Christmas (er, the Holiday Season) be damned. As long as he can get the opposition to be perceived as bringing it on, he will catch the Liberals when they are an unknown quantity with Dion. No one will vote NDP (no sizzle!) and people are afraid to vote Green (E.May's 2nd place notwithstanding). Question is, how far can Harper push before the Loyal Opposition won't give anymore?

However, that said, I live in a habitually Conservative Riding, so I will be voting Green, if only to see they get their funding.

I imagine Ms. May is not happy today. Any feeling of hope she had after the last bi-election will be dashed now that the Lib's have elected a leader who named his dog Kyoto.
I don't underestimate Mr. Dion, but his election will alienate Westerners who are always suspicious of Liberals from Quebec.
Well that was the first shoe to drop, I anxiously await the results of the Alberta PC leadership vote later today.
Hopefully Ted Morton will win.

RickW
Ron's only 50/50 of late. He said the GOP would win the midterms - If he starts to crow we'll beat him with that stick.

Quebec will be the battle ground. Can Dion win the seats the Liberals need to keep pee wee down on the farm?

One thing bothers me about the guys around Dion; I think I saw Ralph Goodale among them - that's gotta be a problem for any leader. My friends in Regina always tell me the only reason they keep electing him is to keep him in Ottawa and off the streets of Regina.

The Alberta leadership - the prize you can buy in $5 installments. Not much to be proud of there Ron. I imagine even the rats are signing up for membership - Oh wait! There aren't any rats in Alberta.

Yeh! RIGHT!

RickW, you may be right about Harper and an election real soon. I think the Bloc would like an election right now, and Harper would hope to make big gains in the rest of the country.

Intriguing little item over on Yahoo.ca about the tories claiming credit for having eased Rae out of the race They claim that they had operatives at the convention handing out anti Rae buttons, and that people wore them as they were voting. The story quotes James Moore as claiming their tricks worked to get rid of the fellow whose leadership they most feared.

(Poor James...since being frozen out of good cabinet post by Harper's PMO, he's been reduced to this.)

I, of course, am much unconcerned about what result may have transpired out of the recent Liberal Convention-, though I did watch it from time to time, in moments of otherwise complete boredom, and the Mrs had it on, and I was too lazy to change it.(She's more of an NDP supporter/symp than I, and pays more attention to the minutia of this "party stuff". Which does serve to make her a good resource person for me, and relieves me of the need to pay too much attention to it.)

All that said, I really distrust Ignatieff, as any radical left-winger who has read some of his stuff will immediately understand of course. Too long living as an Amerikan, and Bostonian at that , all the wrong international "War of Terruh" positions, even though his line much changed and adapted to whatever audience he was speaking to-, and could, from time to time, sound quite NDP "leftish pink" even.

Besides, he could scarcely contain his fundamental arrogance and manifestation of privileged professional/managerial "class right". Never liked the dangerous contempt that could suddenly leap from his eyes either.

Anyway, in case it isn't apparent, I'm really glad this shitt was humiliated. Everytime I saw him, the warning signs of "DANGER!" went up in my brain.

Dion??

Nothing, nada, zilch. Like cold spaghetti. Another academic professional strata twit, servant of the ruling class.

Are these like tinfoil caps.........?

Hmmmm.......Himmler was a mousey-looking creature wasn't he.....?

Perhaps, no longer being "under the thumbs" of Mssrs. Cretien & Martin, Dion will "soar"
http://www.ndp.ca/page/4640

some of his 'achievements' are pretty humourous...fossil wise.

I could only listen to the radio today which was really annoying as I enjoy watching all the action going on live at the leadership conventions.

I am really peed off at the east v west mentality. North/south is what we should be worried about. I will never understand the hostility and hatred about a PM from Quebec or Ontario. We are first of all Canadian. I look for the candidate who puts Canada first. It never occurs to me to consider the province he or she is from. I loathe Harper but it doesn't mean I will view all Albertans who want to take a run at the PMO in the same way. It's this narrow minded way of thinking which will split this country down the middle. The east/west thing is what will destroy us. Nothing will ever be achieved while this mentality exists. Don't delay the inevitable. Split the whole country up into separate little nations, issue Euro style passports and people can drift to where they feel most at home. Then when the yanks take us over and turn us into one big state that they will suck dry in five frigging minutes, we may have some understanding of what being a Canadian was. Being from Quebec or Ontario will be like a walk in the park compared to what the US government will do to this country. The energy we waste whining about east/west would be better spent ensuring Canada remains whole and untainted by our own and by foreign powers.

(yawn, stretch... uhm, fell asleep there for a bit) Whawhahuh? Who won? Stephane? Stephane Dion? Really? Whoppie!!!! :-)

Time for some predictions...

Dion is the leader of this nation after the next election for the next 8 years following.

Dion wins a strong minority and in the election that follows, earns the right to a majority government.

Dion runs a majority government well.

Quebec goes to another referendum within 10 years.

Dion wins... and loses...

Otherwise, over time, this nerdy tweedy peewee of a man will over time, win the hearts and minds of all true Canadians, not by default... but by earning it outright.

I see this country headed for major environmental reform at this point. The arrival of the greens nationwide, of global warming in the media full on to where it is undeniable, the arrival of green platforms within all progressive parties that is greener than most grass... will finally find roots in legislation that Canadians and just as importantly, progessive stewards of the world are demanding.

To quote what could become one of the finest leaders of our time... "our planet and humanity has come to a crossroads... humans change their ways, or face the divorce of Earth and humanity." (or something loosely along those lines) He's right!

Will Stephane try to change things? I believe that there are few out there who think that this man will not. Will he need help? Without question.
Will he get it? Yup. He will. Why? Comprimise.

Few of us really gave Dion a real chance to win. We all thought the status quo would rule again. We continue to think that this country is too redneck predjudiced, too divided, too regional, too anti French, too anti English, too selfish, too imature...

This nation didn't arrive to this present place, or parties like the Liberals choose leaders like Dion, because we are inept failures. Look around. The constitutions and institutions of this country are coveted by 9 out of 10 individuals around the world who know what they haven't got. Canada. And were going to sell it out on a broadly splashed, unjustified label? Make no mistake, this nation does comprimise... and out of comprimise was born Stephane Dion.

oh brain, quit dreaming!
Dion or Harper, the multinationals will rule us regardless!

Brain may have a point. When the going gets tough, the rightistas cut-and-run. The "left" then steps in, stops the hemmoraging, tidies things up, gets things running again, then gets turfed out by the other side, who promises the voters a dime off their gasoline.

Pick yourself up...
Take a deep breath...
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.

Nothing's impossible, I have found
For when my chin is on the ground.
I pick myself up,
Dust myself off
And start all over again.

Don't lose your confidence
If you slip
Be grateful for a pleasant trip
And pick yourself up,
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.

Work like a soul inspired
Until the battle of the day is won.
You may be sick and tired,
But you'll be a man, my son.

Will you remember the famous men
Who had to fall to rise again
They picked themselves up
Dust themselves off
And start'd all over again.

Work like a soul inspired
Till the battle of the day is won.
You may be sick and tired,
But you'll be a man, my son.

Will you remember the famous men
Who had to fall to rise again?
So take a deep breath...
Pick yourself up...
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.
- Nat King Cole

oh my how happy mr. harper must be tonight. stephane dion: the andrew petter of the east, a french-speaking fart. such easy pickin's. whatever were the idiot liberals thinking?

Love is better than hate... faith is better than doubt. For the skeptics of this truth, you have to live it, to experience it, to know why its so true.

They say that Fear is a bad thing, that fear can paralyze you. But fear keeps are minds alert, our bodies in a state of ready, and our hearts summoning the courage it takes to address these fear itself.

A lack of awareness to danger is the most dangerous thing of all. Where would we be without fear? But we must know where the catylists of fear comes from, within and outside of ourselves.

For those who doubt the direction of the future of this country, of fearing democracy failing, of fearing that people will not recognize the difference between right and wrong or fear that we will not respect the difference between the two... fear is not squashed by inaction or indecision. It is squashed by common sense... by solutions to problems... by truthful answers. And most of all, by courage it takes to accept these hard truths.

This nation will not mature into the nation it was meant to be until we as a people, accept our weaknesses and strengths. Pride vs humility, love vs hate, faith vs doubt, truth vs lie, greed vs charity, wisdom vs stupidity... this nation has some internal battles ahead. And we'll win some and we'll lose some. But in the end, the war of ignorance will fade from the love of a dove that speaks the wisdom of its heart. Those who love with faith know why it is better than to wander directionless and lost. And, they know what to do about it.

We'll find our compass. Its our destiny. Our future. Our true North, strong and free.

"TIM RUSSERT" TONIGHT ON CNBC @ 10 pm.

Bob gets a new job tonight. I have been NDP for many dissapointing years but I'm not too dissapointed that bob did not become "Prime
Minister in waiting"
He is not NDP
In fact I would be in favour of a party that was not tied to the old baggage but still had ideas I could resonate with
In the "grand scheme" it may make sense to switch alligences.

I'm waiting to find how this new stefan manages
It won't be long
MMW

I think the basic problem with democracy and politics in this country was clearly illustrated by the two political events that took place today.

On the one hand, a Liberal political 'event', scripted to the last detail, unfolded around the pretence that 5000 so-called delegates are some kind of a reflection of the real hopes, needs and dislikes of the people of this country.

On the other hand, Alberta Conservatives were also choosing a new leader for their province via a method whereby anyone with a five-dollar bill could line up and have a say in this exercise. They don't have to believe in anything, they just have to have 5 bucks.

Neither of these exercises reflects, it seems to me, a very serious effort to actually 'involve' the citizens of this country in their own governance in a meaningful way.

The people of Canada are often disgruntled and disinterested about the state of their own governance because the institutions we use to choose our representatives are creaky old mechanisms that no longer work.

It's time for a change. I think we need to bring governance much closer to the people being governed and find ways to involve them in more significant ways.

By the way, who replaced King Ralph in Alberta?

Looked a lot like "Hockey Night In Canada", I agree.That's the way things are just now. Sillitoe mentioned this a while ago. No Idea (and I do not worry yet) who became "heffe" in Alberta.
If HE (ain't no cowgirls out there who could stand up to them except KD) makes any changes I'll be interested.

I used to refer to him as:"Hell for a Basement" Kline

So now that Dion is leader of the federal Libs I wonder how long it'll take for him to shake fellow Liberal Gordon Campbell's hand for being willing to publicly fund the Cambie Surgical Centre?

And then agree with Carol Taylor that health care is just too expensive?

And will he stand up to fellow Liberal Gordon on fish farms?

How about on offshore oil?

Should be fun to see how long it takes for Stefan to rename his dog.

And after taking a swipe at NDPers in his acceptance speech I wonder how long it'll take to do the math and realize that he will never leave the opposition benches unless he can convince some of those people he just called brain-dead to vote Liberal?

It's good times for conservatives in Canada.
The NDP are dead, as usual, the Green's have been neutered by Dion's green agenda.
It leaves the power with the Con's.
My world has suddenly become affordable. And all other conservatives lives have now become affordable.
Don't be afraid liberals. With Albertans rejection of the firewall, you can relax. The CPC will be a moderate voice. No hard right agenda coming any time soon.

Ron - who won the vote in AB?

Alci- The liberal won in Alberta. You can take joy in that.
The Albertans are going nuclear. The BS Kyoto group will be blown away by the HUGE carbon credits that will be on the table.
Well I see Ed won in Alberta. I always did like people from Vegreville.
Let the fun begin. We now have a down home Albertan conservative from Veg, in charge of Alberta.
It could be worse.

Ed who Ron? Not everybody is on first name terms with anyone from Alberta?

Last names only, please!

And from Veg? Which Veg, Ron broccoli, or turnips?

This is not funny, you guys ... oh, well yeah it was actually funny ... Premier Ed from Veg ... leader of all those apple-cheeked Albertans.

So OK, who is he? My TV is turned OFF and will stay OFF in an effort to recover from the Liberal leadership convention.

I like Dion. And don't forget that other Little Guy who we thought didn't have it in him to win even one election?

There goes ALCi ranting on again...

C'mon ALCi .....propose a FIX to the " creaky old mechanisms " soap box rant you posted above.

What have ya got on the drawing board, besides the USUAL blank slate and continually shooting blanks as well.

We're all ears.

Mary,
Ron can't be relied upon - I had to figure it out for myself - a fellow from Vegreville called Ed Stelmaschuk is the new major domo of AB. He was in third place on the first ballot and let me say right from the start that I don't think he'll last very long. The knives of the masters of the universe in both Edmonton and Calgary are being honed at this moment.

I wish I was as confident as you are that Stephane can capture the average Canadian's imagination the way le p'tit gar de Shawinigan did.

The Tories are using Karl Rove campaign tactics.

See this link at BC news by CP http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=bc_home&articleID=2471292

and see their incredibly un-Canadian, ungracious press release about Dion’s win
http://www.conservative.ca/EN/1091/61756

Yuck

Still waiting ALCi..

.....or is it more and more of the same - old same- old (copyrighted) ALCi " rant rant" "woof woof", "yiii yiii" ...bye bye...

Yawn.

Alcibiades:

The ONLY way to involve the citizenry of this country in politics is to place much more emphasis on municipal governance. And to have this governance tied in some way to provincial and federal governance.

All of the parties (including harpo's) preach "strong central government" (though Harper doesn't preach it, he practices it...), but just what does that mean? Strong on the international stage? Or strong when it comes to power over the people? It has, lately, been the latter, often with the blessing of the citizenry themselves. Why do we consider a 20% turnout in municipal elections "good"? And why do the feds hold such power over money allocations? Most monies are used for infrastructure of one cort or another, and that is directly within the purview of municipalities.
Now, who is going to bell this cat.....?

Stephane and Ed?????
It's strange times in Canadian politics. Not bad times, but strange times. All the flash of coin and media attention, didn't come true.
Two very straight forward and nice men won the day. The big political machines were rejected.
What's next?

For me, it's less a matter of liking or not, but ideas and politics. And from this perspective Dion and Chretien, whom both I liked as well, shall we say, as "Personalities", politically are still light years away from me and the world I want. We serve different class idea sets, and that is what separates me from my enemies and lesser opponents.

But talking on this level, and to the degree this thread which started of about ex-NDPer Bob Rae, I'm going to intrude in here concerning a speech I listened to last night in Revelstoke, by Corky Evans of the BC NDP. And I will straight up admit I came away impressed, with the man, his style, and the content of his ideas-, by and large. He has me partly convinced of at least one thing which I had previously not looked at long and hard enough. (Though I do have some serious differences with Corky as well, but that's another matter here.)

And what I came away with, as my first impression, for he all but spelled it out for the assembled, is that he understands the NDP is in serious trouble, and "part" of the reason for that is "too much nice" being the way he put it, which is not sexy and the media yawns over and never will report, for example. Which points to many years of the NDPs constant attempts to sneak "uncontroversially" into power, a failed policy anyway, but which is most typified at its most extreme by Carole James. (Whom he never mentioned by name, but only by policy.)

And that "too nice", he indicated, at least in my read of him, in part comes out of an absence of controversy, even conflict within the party, and too much importance being placed on collegiality and keeping up a "nice", everybody gets along, united front false face. (Some of which is necessary, but in this political instance is/tends to be harmful.)

It fails to generate ideas that can actually challenge the Club of Millionaires (Or simply "Millionaires as he actually said it.), to stimulate the debates and generate the clash of ideas and viewpoints which can percolate on up to produce really challenging (even sexy) policies, personalities and approaches to how formal state "power" can be used to control this Corporate (usually foreign beholden) Club, and secure the interests of "common folk".

Which has been my experience with the NDP, like the current Labour Movement: an tame "insipidity" that you know is going nowhere, has lost its will and ability to win, and has become "conventional" like those pre-trade union "lodges", like Foresters and Moose etc,, concerned more with charitable works, however noble, than with what should be the slugfest for "power" and to "transform" society. (Enough of these "lodges" and charitable organizations about already.)

Now, I may have misrepresented Corky here a tad, but I think not much. He puts more faith in the institutions of Parliament and the Legislature than I do, as real "transformative democratic instruments", but he did, like I say, convince me of one thing.

Opposition benches in Parliament and the Legislatures filled with such men and women as Corky, would certainly be a useful "adjunct" to what needs to occur "on the street" and in its social movements, or as might evolve out the social environment created by the street struggle which needs to appear here. Unlike Corky might tend, I do not give them primary importance of place, but they certainly "could" be useful in there, assisting with legislation and laws, the social movements struggle on the street.

Continued next post...

From the previous post...

Though fail they to play that role, and see themselves as somehow, like the old NDP, "above and ruling over it all", then they become the same problem again that we have been dealing with already for years: as side tracking and attempting to behead and marginalize the movements of the people that need to be, to tame them in fact, and are actually primary to the process of transformation.

In any case, I think Corky himself gets it, though I'm less certain Norm McDonald, our own riding's NDP MLA, who was also there, and though he was "nice", does (get it). For sure he seems to understand that the NDP is in big trouble, and I think it may even be too late to do anything about, "nice" is not enough in politics, and he certainly seems to be developing a cogent critique and challenge to the "nice" Ms James.

My sense was that he is getting ready to tee off on her. But which remains to be further clarified by events. We'll see.

How deep it all runs, and is not just a light show designed to dazzle, 'cause he is one colourful and dramatic guy, with a good ability to deliver the lines with style, I don't know and it was too soon for me to tell. It was my first face to face encounter with guy.

Nonetheless, I was impressed, a bit more than a tad.

It is now Sunday Morning and here is sit after 2 days off and an overflow of Political input. My caffeine filled viens want more Politics but alas the convention is now over and we can reflect on what happened. For starters i must confess i was rooting for Bob Rae, not sure why as I am and have always been a New Democrat. and despite that my fellow NDP'ers hate Bob I liked the guy and planned to join the Libs if he had won the cup. My heart was of course with Dryden as i feel he was the best of the lot if leaders could be chosen for sincerity and just being nice guys. And what a sad commentary it is to say that those qualities do not make for the best leader. Then almost out of nowhere comes this skinny guy Dion. He defies the pundints and commentators to win. I dont know how to take this siutation. When it was down to the final two I came to a decision that while this Dion guy seemed nice and sincere i could not see him knocking off harper and his gang of neo cons. Harper has grown in his job and is in his own bafoon like way very good at what he does. I believe we needed a Rae or the micheal come latley to Canada to take Harper on and win. My worry is that harper and company will make mince meat of him. I hope I am wrong as i worry Canada may not survive 4 years of harpo conservative policy. My other worry of course is can this guy win in Quebec. At the best of times Quebeckers eat thier young in potlics. Trudeau, Chretien and to a lesser degree Martin were hated dans la belle province. There is a perceptioin that french politicians turn traitor when they cross the Ottawa river to sit in Canadian parliament. In years gone by the Liberals just about an inherent right to elect large groups in Quebec. now its the right of the Bloc it seems to do so. So can the little guy from Quebec do the task that is needed? I have no idea. stay tuned and dont touch that dial as he will be in his new job monday. same bat time same bat channel

Coyote:

Exactly...Corky is getting set to tee off on Carol...or should one say all the signs are there. I posted that view in another TYEE topic.

What it will result in is anybody's guess.

In the ad -nauseum political spin cycle...this story has been played before... substitute Corky for Chretien...ie " folksy "..." down to earth "..."the -humble- little -grassroots guy from -a- small -town" ..... you know the plot/story (image wise, anyway).

Tom Lal:
Interesting points. Bob Rae did distance himself from the Left. Did he have a choice? Honestly, it didn't matter what kind of choice he made, the NDP would have roasted him over it anyways. They too, remind me of the "Quebecquois" in this sense. It doesn't matter who was the premier of Ontario at the time Bob was in office. There are few if any politicians who do well in a recessionary climate. People don't blame plant foreclosures and shrinking personal revenue on world circumstances, or even themselves. They blame their politicians.

To that end, I wasn't impressed with the "Rae day offs" or deficits but on further reflection, things could have been worse for Ontarion without at least some of that red ink. Anyways, the NDP can focus their hatred on someone else other than Bob Rae and start seeing Red again with Red instead of blaming their own for things that go wrong.

On the other hand, Alberta Conservatives were also choosing a new leader for their province via a method whereby anyone with a five-dollar bill could line up and have a say in this exercise. They don't have to believe in anything, they just have to have 5 bucks. - Alchibiades

Scripted to the last detail... geez, I guess that means Dions pick by the crowd was no surprise... and at least, the same 5,000 or so representatives of the rest did it publicly.

But then, you offer a strange contradiction, where something is wrong with all of the members electing their leader of which the average Joe can buy a cheap membership and decide who they want for any party. To me, this seems to be the most democratic of all, save for the few who might scheme to vote for the "worst" leader in the hopes of getting their other party favorite elected. And if it backfires? You've offered a strange contradiction of criticisms. A very strange one, indeed.

Coyote:
Darn, I missed Corky. I was tired last night from all the coffee's and political goings on, but I would have liked to have taken that one in. And, by the way, fully agree with you once again. I'm still for putting something green in a bowl... there's a few good restaurants that make a fine salad. Maybe we should go for brunch sometime. Not much of a drinker either. Coffee or tea is where my tastebuds are at these days. I like to throw the Singhs a bit of business these days. Maybe the Frontier for brunch some time when an open daytimer comes up?

off-the-radar:
Checked out one of your links. All lies. Here's a few clips.

There wasn't one cabinet minister implicated in the sponsorship scandal. The crooks were backbenchers elected by Quebecs own, of which Quebec blamed the country for instead of themselves, along with the Cons blaming every Liberal instead of the crooks themselves, or the people responsible for choosing these candidates to begin with, some of them Liberal organizers, some of them ordinary people within these ridings, but not cabinet ministers. Out comes the old broad stereotyped paint brush. Gun registry boondoggles... seems as though the Cons are keeping the registry after all. Hypocrites.

Dion was minister of the environment for all of a year and a half? In this time, he doubled watershed parks across the country. The 10 billion dollar proposal was engineered largely by him, a proposal the Cons destroyed. And the Auditor Generals quip came out when Dion was 3 months into his cabinet positon.

“Mr. Dion’s lack of respect for provincial jurisdictions will make him a very hard sell in Quebec, where Liberals are no longer the federalist option,” said Public Works Minister Michael Fortier. Mr. Dion also marks a return to the old Liberal way of directionless government, admitting candidly during the leadership campaign, “do you think it’s easy to make priorities?”

This one is interesting. Its not like the Cons had respect for provincial agreements over the native Kelowna accord. And if Dion can't become the federalist option in Quebec, who can? In terms of the environment, the Cons have to be the biggest hypocrites going. They open up the tarsands to multinational sellouts that skyrocket CO2 emissions, won't do anything about it themselves, and then blame Dion for his year and a half term in government?

Economy vs Environment... geez, it does happen to be difficult to make priorites. Duh.
One would have to be a color blind faith cheerleader the likes of IMAC to swallow this crap propaganda. Speaking of IMAC, he's back to his usual self, offering posts that make no sense. I knew it wouldn't last long. :-)

RickW
I very much agree that the 'political' way ahead is not through elitist parties like the Liberals, fundamentalist parties like the Conservatives or frightened and timorous parties like the NDP or scolds like the Greens.

Is community action and municipal politics the way ahead? Possibly? It seems at least at that level we would be dealing on a face to face basis with community and on a scale that still has the possibility of doing something concrete.

You may be right. However, I think it's much easier to negotiate the organizational chores of such a 'movement' on a small scale - which means, to me at least, starting out only in communities of say, less than 50,000.

Where and when do we start?

The liberals have damaged Canada so much starting with P. Trudeau I can't believe that people continue to vote for the liberal party.
* So next time you go out and cast your vote really give it a second thought as to what party you would really like in office!

“Public service is a noble calling. All who are willing to dedicate their lives to serving Canada should be congratulated.” - Jack Layton

Interesting contrast to CPC's website. The NDP offers an interesting cherry pick of Dions record in terms of voting in parliment, the works. I just wished some day a pary, any party, would present a full account of voting record and policy if they are going to go there, which is why, incidentally, I have a hard time supporting campaigns like the NDP ad's splashed on this site.

To offer money to support a media campaign in the globe is one thing. To offer support to offer money in support of a distorted view or smear campaign, is quite another. The Tyee management should be careful in offering political parties access to promote advertizing to raise money to do so.

If such media campaigns unfold and become nothing more than distorted views or outright smears of political records, the Tyee and other media who promotes this kind of thing, could face some serious backlash.

Links below with NDP, CPC and Green websites, and their reactions to Dions election:
conservative.ca click press.
ndp.ca click multimedia.
greenparty.ca
The green party has yet to respond to yesterdays events. Hopefully, it will be in a manner more consistent with Jacks statement, than their own multimedia reaction, as well as the ugliness of the Conservative reaction in their press window.

Am I alone in being sick and tired of this ugly bashing of political parties by other parties with distortions of truth and outright lies? They all do it including the Libs. The Libs distort their own record to be truthful, highlighting the good while forgeting the bad. When will these parties try telliig the truth, the full truth, and nothing but the truth? When will they begin to offer full credit where it is due? Not just bad credit, but good credit as well? When's the last time a political party offered thanks and appreciation for another parties support of like minded initiatives? We wonder why so many people are dis-enfranchised with politics... our elected MP's and otherwise, are supposed to represent ALL of their constituents, not just themselves and their silly cult crap positions reeking of superiority/inferiority complex's and backing old records full of stain. When will these parties as a whole, represent not only the people that put them there, but the nation and world for that matter as a whole? When will they serve this world, instead of merely serving themselves, time and time again. All you all not sick of this cult crap? I am. But then again, I never did like cults to begin with.

pure:
look at the other alternatives and you'll see why.

Alchibiades:
Good point. We have multilayered governments. It does begin at home. But on that point, it also begins with morality. The major problem with politics is that parties win not by their own merit, but by default, the failures of the opposition to govern. When we vote, we react more to failure than we do to success. That's the truth of it. The shift in focus is not brought on so much by politicians, but with the will of the people and to that end, people in general are not tuned in enough to the details of the issues at hand and this is in part why democracy fails us. The media fails us, the parties fail us, we fail us. Sure, if each voter looks at absolutely every position with the ideal of looking out for whats best for the nation, world and life as a whole, great, the best decisions will likely come as a result. But this isn't how the average voter votes. The average voter votes for their own selfish wants. Like Rick W says, the left votes to control the damage and once repaired, votes for the next dime cut off of their next gallon of gas. Its only political parties that should grow up? Try the electorate. Try us. There is no such thing as a clean record when it comes to being human.

The Brain wrote,

A coffee at the Frontier would be mighty fine anytime, brother.

Coyote
Was interested in your observations about Corky - do you think he'd be the kind of guy who might be worth contacting to see if he'd be interested in a coffee too?

I don't think Corky would ever turn down a coffee and a chance to vent with like-minded souls.

I dunno, I'd hate to put the guy on the spot outta the blue, even though he did strike me as pretty down to earth. But I would be very surprised if he doesn't read Tyee. In fact, you can probably bet on it. :-) And if he's interested in a coffee, my email address is up there, and the coffee is always on.

(I seem to recall he is from up Nelson way, not?)

Every journey starts with a single step.

Corky's an old logger Nelson boy, alright. Some like him. Some don't. I really haven't followed Corky's career much to offer a view. But I can say this.

People do mature. Evolve. Change. Getting back to Charles Demers story, Bob Rae offered such an evolution in his own speech. Whether or not he meant every word, is still up for debate. But the jest of what he said is that he has changed or wisened Its no longer about him.

Sometimes, holding public office simply rubs off on people. We see, in trying (or failing) to serve our electorate, our province, our nation, our leaders, and our parties, our own short comings and failures within ourselves.

Introspection, defined as self examination, is a tough thing to do. Perhaps, its because honesty is required and self examination when done properly is often a potently humiliating thing to do. And some people simply aren't prepared for, or able to handle and adjust to what they might find, so they avoid it... until they hit rock bottom or find that what they were so proud of is nothing more than a phisod or illusion, a pretend version of life. Personally, I look for it in a person, this ability or inability that they might have to do so. Bob Rae reflected at the very least, having it on his mind in his speech at the convention.

His sincerity is debatable... but his openness to publicly admit past mistakes, however... vague, was not wasted on me. If Rae had a membership as old as the turning of the millenium, he likely would have won this convention. His input was valid, his participation appreciated, and I just don't believe he's the same Bob Rae that premiered Ontario in the early 90's. He's grown.

And as far as Dion goes, Dion's success will be determined by his ability to keep the party united. People underestimate him, because they simply underestimate the players within the Liberal party, and the party itself.

And I don't care what people say, this Con government isn't popular. Elections aren't decided by who is better, but moreso by who is worse. On that note, people might prefer personality and charisma, but in the end, what they really want is results. More than ever, people just want good, positive results.

Dion will win the next election by default but beyond that, its really hard to say, even though I've made predictions. Bottom line is, I think his party will support him and time will tell on whether or not he's got what it takes to lead. I know this much. He wasn't exactly everyones first choice and on that note, he is born into and out of comprimise. The jury is still out on Dions ability to govern. Anyone who profess's to know otherwise or thinks he's unelectable at this point in time, is a fool.

Dion has a few months to establish whether or not he has "The Right Stuff".

Personal view is this was not the right time for him...it was simply intended as advertising for the future, but one takes a chance ala " Careful what you wish for, you MAY get it ".

Unfortunately, the Federal Liberal message was Trudeau,(Turner),Chretien, Martin , Dion...thats 4 out of 5 Liberal leaders /Prime Ministers from one Province...and that Liberals felt that the rest of Canada is 2nd rate as far as being a supplier of leadership.

Sliding up the middle as a dark horse has rarely bodes well for the " lucky party " they often end up as meat in the grinder for those slighted who are currently just licking their wounds.

I think you mean "gist" but I like jest better as used here.

In my view, moving from the NDP to the Libs is not a sign of becoming wiser. But maybe that's just me.

I think Rae lost because Libs saw through him. Rae's candidacy can be summed up in his post-leadership quote where he says he hasn't decided whether to run.

In my view that quote says it all. Bob didn't like being an MP for the NDP so he became leader of the Ontario NDP instead. He wanted bigger things, however, so he tried to take over the natural governing party. Now that he's failed he won't run as an MP for them, instead he'll get his political buddies to appoint him to a plum position.

In other words, its still, "all about Bob". Hmm, maybe that is getting wiser after all.

Which is why if the NDP and Greens didn't exist I'd vote Conservative next time around. As I said after the last election, I can't believe how much my blood pressure went down after getting rid of Martin and the rest of the Liberals. BC Mary agreed, she had the same feeling. With the Cons we get the same bad results we get with the Libs but without all the drama.

brain...you sparked my speculator about the next election.

In the election last winter, I thought that the Libs had everything going against them. The whole Gomery thing, their lack of movement on environment, change of mission in Afghanistan, that weird RCMP involvement in the campaign with their Ã*ncome trust'investigation, years of overspending problems, a great campaign by the Harper team...and yet, they won over a hundred seats. I thought that lots of Libs either did not vote, or parked their votes elsewhere.

Now people have had a look at the Harper PMO's way of governing ( I speculate that from the get-go some of the Reform stalwarts were miffed by the Emerson/Fortier thing, the shafting of long time opposition critics, the centralization and secrecy) and I think the convention has given the Libs some good media coverage. I also speculate that underestimation is in the Libs favour.

Could be that Harper and Duceppe want to go sooner, rather than later, but I think that only the Bloc would win from that. the Harper 'way'has more people ready to work against it than the Harper team has people as passionately ready to work for it.

You might be right about Bob. Thing is, he adressed what was on other people's minds. He knew where he was the weakest, at least, within the minds of others. Whether or not he's addressing it is still up for debate.

Certainly, "all about Bob" in the past, was not for debate. Certainly a leopard doesn't change his stripes, but was Bob ever a leopard? Bob's been under the spotlight long enough to know what the countries feedback is on him. And he addressed it. As for his sincerity... you could be right, but at this point, at least with Bob, it no longer matters that much except maybe with Bob himself.

And Frank... are you trying to say that there is some kind of a difference between the Libs and Cons? You prefer shtick over slick? And isn't that blood pressure going up just a little with the Cons in power? Or maybe it isn't because you for some reason, don't give the Cons much of a chance to succeed, knowing that their example only highlights the NDP's strongest suit.

Or perhaps on another level, your truest advisary is the one that's in your face, calming in a sense that you actually know who your worst enemy is. You know, some social spending cut and runner U.S. puppet plant NCC Republican sellout who's living up to his every word... when it suits him.

For that matter, who would you fear more with a majority? The Libs? Cons? Greens? NDP? Bloc? Which party do you think would write off this countries sovereignty sooner, besides the Bloc? Manage money the worst? Be the worst for the environment? The worst for social programs? I keep coming up with just one name, and two names when it comes to money.

Nevertheless, you remind me of person who cheers on the worst possible party to be voted into power so that your own NDP can come in and save the day and be recognized and popular for its strongest suit. I remain entirely unconvinced that this kind of thinking is in any way logical... you know, to benefit off of complete failure at such a high price in the hopes of winning merely by default. Good people don't do whats popular. They do whats right.

If the NDP is to ever hold power federally, they are going to have to do it the hard way. They're going to have to earn it. Its not going to happen with fingerpointing, exaggerations, distortions and smears. When I see the NDP ad on this site, it quite frankly reminds me of Harper's tactics. This isn't the way to victory. The way to victory is to influence or introduce policies that become legislated, regardless of who's there to take the credit. Again, its not a popularity contest. Its what the Greens have have done with environmental issues. The NDP's done it with social programs. But both parties are unknowns in terms of federal governance and hugely feared (likely the NDP more than the Greens at this point) with being fiscally irresponsible and one look at their platform reaffirms why. Their spending adds up to red ink and until that changes within their platform and to another degree, attitude, little will change. In terms of attitude, you could learn from the greens. Check out the true reason why Ed Stelmach won. The reason why Layton was nowhere near as successful as he should have been in the last election lies there.

macsasquatch:

The Cons will likely try to bring another election over the accountability act. They'll think there is enough Lib mistrust to win another election. It won't work. I don't think anything they try will work at this point.

I'm real curious to see where Quebec's support numbers lie for Dion now in Quebec and Ontario. Lets remember too, that Dion was the comprimise candidate. He was the second choice guy. My thoughts are, for as much as people bash the lack of democracy within the convention itself, that Dion was the second choice among average voters.

What do you do when your leader makes a total ass of themselves in a shouting match in federal debates? I shouldn't have to say it. Christ, if Jack would have simply kept his negative mouth shut and kept out of the scrums, he would have won an extra 50 seats for his party. There were so many close ridings that could have gone NDP but didn't. It was his to win or lose, and he lost one of the most golden opportunities the NDP's ever federally had, because he could keep his big, fat, mouth shout where it counts.

People didn't need to be reminded of Liberal corruption from Jack every 5 seconds, or watch him argue and fight like the rest of the children. All he had to do was put a muzzle on negative attitude, and talk more about his platform (and majorly tweak it economically, it would have helped huge). But Jack didn't. He ended up sounding like a nonstop barking mindless poodle, and the rest is history.

This link should be mandatory reading for any NDP supporter who wants to gain seats in the next election. People are tired of adults acting like children. Who wasn't embarrassed by their leaders in the past federal election debates? (well, those with a soul, anyways)
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/03/alta-tories.html

No, it really isn't. Harper is good for my blood pressure.

I think you may be bang on as they say.

Correct again.

The Bloc, second would be a tossup between the Libs and Cons. But only because I think I have a better chance of seeing electoral and parliamentary reform with the Cons than I do the Libs.

Is this a trick question? Because, I've been pretty clear that I think our sovereignity (economically) was sold down the river when the Cons signed the FTA and the Libs signed NAFTA. We're a colony now, in my opinion.

The Cons have a really bad record in this area due to Mulroney so they win as being the worst.

In a strange way I think the Libs are worse because people are lulled into a false sense of security by PR stunts like signing Kyoto and one-ton challenge advertising whereas the Cons have their feet held much closer to the fire because everyone expects the worst.

The Libs are good for social programs only when an election is looming, otherwise its a tossup.

Except that I never expect the NDP to win power, especially under an electoral system that is designed for only two parties, whigs and tories. But yes, I prefer people experience capitalism without the touchy feely human face the Libs like to hang on it.

Actually its extremely logical. Ever follow the hockey draft where finishing 2nd last is a really bad idea? Better to finish last and get the first draft pick. Well, better people see the system as it really is, warts and all. That's why places like Chile, Venezuela, Spain and Argentina go Left, they know what the Right really means.

RE: correction.

he could keep his big, fat, mouth shout where it counts. Should read, "he couldn't keep his big, fat.... "

Name a single 3rd party that has ever won under our system? The British Liberal-Democrats? Nope. Some 3rd party in the US? Nope. Canada? Nope.

The only chance for the NDP is to completely replace one of the two other parties. That's what they've done provincially except in Ontario. And someone smarter than me should do a study of that because I have a theory that it was when John Turner's Liberals were reduced to almost the same level as the NDP under Broadbent that an opening might have presented itself for the NDP to replace the Libs, just as Labour did in Britain over 50 years ago. Perhaps that's why Bob Rae got elected in Ontario even? Regardless, his administration poisoned the well and soon the Libs returned to their former domination.

To sum up, the NDP will never govern Canada without electoral reform.

Strange, because this is exactly the recipe the two big parties follow and it works for them.

What? Examples please so I know what you mean.

Again, are you sure you've studied western political history under first past the post systems? The policies of the NDP and the Greens and others are irrelevant. They won't get elected regardless of what their stated policies are.

Oh please, 50 seats for being quiet? Then Audrey McLaughlin or Alexa McDonough should have won 200 seats. Why not say 100 seats if people thought he was nicer in which case Broadbent should have won 3 majorities and Tommy Douglas should have been prime minister.

Too easy to always claim the NDP shoulda done this or that. Look outside the country and ask why 3rd parties don't win in other countries.

Excellent observation, Frank. I concur!

My guess is 32 million Canadians would disagree. Its about more than money and trade and last I looked, we still have banking regulations that keep us off the list of M & A's and North American currencies, but its on the Con playbook.

But they all still had a nation to inherit. We might not be so lucky.

Check my link yet? People are tired of childish bashing and name calling, Frank. Some things are running their course. The NDP couldn't have had a better chance to expand themselves federally than what they were given in the last election. There were alot of close seats that the NDP could have won. Check the link, Frank. The NDP were the second choice before the Libs stole and the Cons resurrected the Republican party. It was Jack's to lose. If you don't see it that way, that what can I say? Maybe you're to close to see it from the outside looking in.

Did anyone tell the Federal Liberals that? I saw quite a lot of it over the weekend and it always seemed to draw a positive and enthusiastic response.

Has anyone told the Conmen that? I've haven't heard or read a single statement by our New Canadian Government that wasn't full of vicious ad hominem attacks on everyone - including the Parliamentary Press Gallery/

Has anyone told the Campbell Liberals that? They seem determined to find a way to blame the mistakes they made yesterday on a party that hasn't been in power for almost 6 years.

I don't think you know what you're talking about. Even Stephane Dion, in his victory speech yesterday couldn't resist taking a knife to the NDP.

Those things haven't run their course, they're just getting up to speed brain.

Oh, that bit about 2nd place. Doesn't matter a damn in FPP systems - there was a time in the 40s when the CCF were the most popular party in Canada - didn't get elected anywhere except in Saskatchewan though.

The British Labour Party went from 3rd party status to forming the government. Labour became the official opposition in 1922 supplanting the Liberals and were able to form a government with Liberal support in early 1924. In the US the party system was surprisingly fluid at times with parties splitting, failing or merging throughout the 19th century. The 1912 election saw a 3rd party candidate (T Roosevelt) finish 2nd in the Presidential election ahead of the Republican nominee, a division of votes that guaranteed the Democrats nominee Wilson to win a landslide with 42% of the vote.

The problem for 3rd parties is that anytime they have good ideas that are gaining public support, or threatening to split an established party, they will see their platform formally or informally absorbed by one of the big 2. Examples of this include the Populist Party in the US and the NDP here in Canada. Parties that are program driven will often be used as idea machines for parties that are more concerned with gaining and maintaining power.

I did mention the Labour party replacing the Liberals. But it was because they "replaced" the Liberals, not because Britain suddenly became a 3 party system where gov't traded between the 3. It remained a 2 party system with one face replacing another.

As for the 1912 election in the US, sure, much like the sudden strength of the Progressives in Canada in the 20's. An historically freak event. And in the end went nowhere.

Gerhardius, I think, if my memory is correct, that the British situation was a little special wasn't it?

Seems to me that you may have overlooked the role of the Labour Liberal alliance (Labour won 29 seats in 1906 and, for the most part supported the Liberals during the 1905-1914 period). Unemployment and economic problems after the war provided the spark that Labour needed to suck up progressive voters from the Liberals and you can't dismiss how effective Ramsay MacDonald was as Labour leader nor the eventual effects of the 1926 General Strike.

Although the Liberals got less than 20% of the votes in the election of 1924 that brought Baldwin to power they had managed to hang on, in a way, by supporting the short-lived Macdonald government that was elected in December 1923 - I think it lasted 10 months didn't it? It may be that the Labour alliance did the Liberals in more than party infighting did, after all.

In that sense Labour had already dumped its 3rd party status before it became the government.

You're right about the Bull Moose party in the States, although the fact that the party was short lived tends to support the point Frank was making in any case.

Sort of the exception proves the rule, I guess.

I do agree that you final assessment of the problem for a third party describes what's happened to both the CCF and the NDP in this country - just another reason why I find Liberal smugness so cloying and phony.

Alcibiades:

Uh, by getting municipal voting up to provincial and federal voter turnout levels.....? Just what DO those other 40-50% have to say anyway? In my municipality, I know most of the encumbants actually prefer a low turnout. It keeps them in power without the effort to earn it.......

undoubtedly true. Clearly it's going to have to be a job that starts long before the actual municipal elections.

Last minute won't work.

Quote' Gordon Campbell is British Columbia’s 34th premier. His government was sworn into office on June 5, 2001 with the largest majority in B.C. history. On May 17, 2005, he became the first Premier in over 20-years to be re-elected in British Columbia.

Premier Campbell has been awarded the Simon Fraser University “Distinguished Alumni” Award and the Inter-Faith Brotherhood “Man of the Year” Award. He was born in Vancouver. Unquote'.

Quote'
Mr. Dion obtained his Bachelor's and Master's degrees in political science from Laval University in 1977 and 1979, respectively. Stéphane Dion also holds a PhD in sociology from the Institut d'études politiques in Paris. He taught at the University of Moncton in 1984, and was a professor of political science at the Université de Montréal from 1984 to January 1996.
As Minister for the Parks Canada Agency, Mr. Dion was responsible for the protection of Canada's heritage sites. Key aspects of Canada’s rich cultural heritage have been commemorated through the Minister’s designation of 12 sites, 7 events and 6 persons of national historic importance and $24 million will be invested to honour the 400th anniversary of the founding of Québec in 2008. Unquote'

With a team like this how can we loose?

Stephen Joseph Harper (born April 30, 1959) is the 22nd and current Prime Minister of Canada and leader of the Conservative Party of Canada. He became Prime Minister after leading the Conservatives to a minority government win in the January 2006 federal election, which ended more than twelve years of Liberal government.

Stephen Harper was born in Toronto, Ontario. He is the eldest of three sons of Margaret Johnston and Joseph Harper (1927–2003), an accountant who worked with Imperial Oil. Harper attended John G. Althouse Middle School, and Richview Collegiate Institute, a high school, both in Central Etobicoke, while living at 57 Princess Anne Crescent. He graduated in 1978 as the top student of his graduating year with a 95.7% average, and represented his high school on the TV quiz and trivia show Reach for the Top.[1] Harper briefly studied at the University of Toronto before travelling to Edmonton, where he found employment in the oil and gas industry as a computer programmer in his early twenties. He later attended the University of Calgary, receiving a Master's degree in economics. Harper is the first prime minister since Lester B. Pearson not to have attended law school. His links to the University remain strong, and he has been a frequent lecturer there.

How can we loose with a team like this?

You too, Alchibiades? Ok, here's another example for both you and Frank. (maybe I should become a journalist)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061203/decency_politics_061203/20061203?hub=QPeriod

IMAC:
I mean this jokingly, of course. :-)
Kiss my ass!!!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061203/libs_poll_061203/20061203?hub=QPeriod
Oh, I wouldn't get to nervous just yet, there, buddy. It was a small sample of 1,000 across Canada, but if its any indication of where Ontario is leaning... Libs will win a strong minority unless they blow it from here til the election. Quebec seemed to improve as well with 67% approval, but again, this is a small sample. I will say this. Dion's got federalist support in Quebec. If the majority of the calls landed in Montreal, the survey would be a lot less representative, but...

And the NDP is at 14%. Maybe they should just... play nice? You know, watch Harper and Dion make asses of themselves during the debates and keep from acting like a child?

Might not be a bad plan for Jack to practice on thinking quick, as well. When Jack's got a script, he's fine. When someone takes him from the book, like say the book of chess strategy as an analogy, he crumbles. Jack bombed with Peter Mansbridge's interview on CBC's interview of him before the last election as I recall, by taking Jack off his scripted responses and asking Jack hard questions. He hardly looked like the stuff Prime ministers are made of on that one.

If this poll is any indication of where its going... I'd be very worried as a party organizer for any party out there outside of the Libs. But they just went through mega media exposure, a Liberal bump was expected... it could fade, we'll see... but I highly doubt it.

pure:
Lose? Easy. Just elect the Republican.

The brain.
I don't have any problems with Dion, remember? I think his 'elect-ability' is a big problem though. No doubt the strong foci of Green power are worried though.

A five point bounce after a weekend of saturation TV coverage is about as important as the economic significance - expressed in the opposite direction, of course - as that stock phenomenon called 'the dead cat bounce'.

I think you're running around being a Liberal shill and I can't understand why.

Time for Duncan to go back to the farm and listen to some of those conversations on coffee row I think.

Status quos everywhere pretty much like low turn-outs, which generally indicate no revolt against the status quo. Higher turn-outs, regardless of publicly expressed wishes typically indicate a revolt in progress agains an incumbent, favouring the challenger. (And there are always exceptions. Such as if there is perceived to be no real challenger of any content worth bothering to get our for-, which I think, explains our election over election low turn-outs despite the number of "centre-parties".)

It's the same observable phenomena within trade unions, where filled union halls are a sign of likely trouble to status quo leadership. (With exceptions again.) Empty seats on the contrary are a sign that the status quo will easily have its way-, as the rule, with surprises only remotely possible.

Democracy is boring, in its current form and content near everywhere and in near all instances, by and large, because it is really intended to put everybody on snooze, and deny real power and opportunity for change to the majority and marginalized, put your X or hold up your hand here, participants.

And the proof of this pudding, regardless of all the theories and contrary protestations, is in the eating as they say. Marginalized real participation in elections, year after year after year.

It's a serious study that really is still begging to be done by an interest in invigorating/energizing a real participatory and direct democracy. Until then, democracy will continue to be more formal and ritualized than real.

Now, I'm off into the "Bigger City" today-, to get those things which can't be got here in "Small Town". (Though Revelstoke is formally again, just not really, a City. :-)

Catch ya's, hopefully, upon the 'morrow.

Frig! It's snowing. Must check the highway reports.

Didn't say you did. I'm simply saying that nice guys are finnishing first.

You're forgetting that he's not alone. His success rides almost solely on whether or not he can unify the party.
I don't see a problem with this, I might add. They all simply want to win and to do that, they all know what they have to do and that to support their leader... at least... until after the election. Its one thing to win an election, and quite another to govern and with his ability to govern, its a wait and see.

What I do know is this. Without Kennedy's endorsement now and in the future, Dion is sunk. We have a Kennedy who wants reform, Bay street who wants perks, status quo who wants power, and a grass roots that wants major changes. We will find out soon enough whether or not his babble about a green economy and reform was for real, or just words.

At this point, and if polls are any indication, especially with Quebec approval and Ontario support, every party should be worried.

Because I'm not color blind? Because there is no party that is immune to deep and constructive criticism, or praise where one can find it and that includes the NDP and its leadership. For just as much praise I heap on the natural governing party of this country, I heap loads of criticism. The NDP deserves the same from me. They all do. You think I like the leader of the Greens praising Mulroney for his environmental record? Do you think I like Jacks answers when taken out of script? You think I like the Republican? For that matter, do you think I like a former Lib environmental minister who's first strategy was for Canadians to volunteeringly clean up their own mess?

What do you wish me to be, a cult follower? I harsh criticism for them all. I want improvements within them all, or we won't have a better country. So if you think I'm going to support the NDP's bashing of the Libs to the successful point that the Republican party is going to wreck this country further, think again. If you think I'm going to support the Libs blindly simply because Dion got elected, think again. They've got a long way to go, before they please me. Same goes with Jack. He's a liability and in this next election, you'll see why, if he doesn't learn from his experiences. I've outlined my criticisms of him enough for you to know what I think of "angry monotones" and slow thinking on his feet. They are all flawed, and they all have pro's, even the Republican Cons. I have to think long and hard to find one for them... here's praise for the Cons. They recognize a need to monitor the North more closely than they have. There does need to be more accountability (although this party is hardly the party to bring it in, it should be an NDP proposal that's considered first, but guess what... they haven't! to busy pointing fingers, I guess) To sum it up, they are all flawed and for me to talk about NDP pro's without the con's, or Liberal cons without the pro's and on and on, well, is that what you call a good version of "honesty"? C'mon. They all improve, this country improves, its that simple. It doesn't come without criticism and praise where its due.

Go to CPAC and check out Nik on the numbers. Take a look at who's No. 2 on commentary (and I was using two names, I was 2nd and 9th). That's my coffee row. I don't need to go to Sask to hear grumblings of metric and Trudeau. Its like a time capsule when I go there.

Bit of a breeze out there as well, Coyote. Excellent points on the subject. Its how Campbell came into office. Rich people vote! If the rest don't show, the elite wins. Hopefully the apathy this province had last time won't be the same pathetic low voter participation repeat.

I just think Duncan had a clearer idea of what jobs need doing and who is best able to do them. The conmen and the libs are all cats. The real coffee row in Saskatchewan and ALberta and the interior of BC is my source of those comments about racism and anti-French sentiment in the west.

I don't think surfing the web gives you the complete 'flavour' of that kind of thing and the real coffee row does. And posting to places like Tyee doesn’t either. Wish it did – we’d have a better nation.

Also, you should check out Chantal's column today before you become too convinced of Dion's electability. This is by no means a slam dunk. As much as I like Dion as a man, as a force to unite this country I'm afraid he's stillborn.

I don't think the country is getting better. I think it's a lot worse. People, especially here in BC put more faith in the preservation of the system and less in facts and the truth every day.

Far far more than even 25 years ago and you know what was going on then.

It's all lies dude. Sorry.

Just pour yourself a tall stale coffee (and not at Tim Horton’s) and pull up a chair and listen.

Coyote:

Municipal wannabe councillors most often come across as "hicks", in that they are not polished, suave, smooth, greasy........
People it seems, like a good show, and municipal politics is a yawner. Now, if the municipal voter attendance was attached to to (say) property taxes in some manner............

The old lady and I were having a discussion about the issue of this thread, which is fundamentally that of "democracy", on our drive to Vernon today. And in the course of the discussion, I think we drew some pretty goddamn good observations.

The first observation we made was that democracy is always highly ritualized and structured, rendered rule driven and formal, in order to control it and its outcomes. Whereas the times when democracy really works is when it is "unfettered" and less, rather than more "structured". The real need is to integrate "democracy", meaning popular control over society and its major institutions, including economic functions, into daily "informal" life.

For example, at the various levels of the state and political policy, or even foreign policy, we already know how to determine "public sentiment or wishes" by means of polling. It's not a mystery or some form of voodoo.

For example, it is already known what the popular opinion of the public is on the Afghan War: which is that we should not be involved and that we should bring our troops home. Ditto, the public already thinks that our government is too chummy with the fukin' US Empire, by significant majority numbers.

Yet the State and The System simply ignore these public wishes, as though we were children and they our parents, and we, through the decision of our State, as if we did not even exist, are proceeding into a North Amerikan Union AND a war in Afghanistan, with the committment of troops and public treasure anyway-, regardless. The assumption of the bourgeois/ruling class controlled State being that they won the contest of electoral democracy, which they control via the means of their money and professional elites, (with in the neighbourhood of 40% of less than half the eligble voters, with near as high percentages not even bothering to participate), and that therefore it was only democratic that they should be able to ignore the majority public opinion and do precisely the fuk as they wish regardless. And all so-called "democratic" governments behave in this way.

Now, if that ain't a strange, Orwellian kind of "democracy", then I ain't never gonna see one, and up is down, and down is up.

Likewise is the direction of our State proceeded again in a direction contrary to what we already know, in fact, is the public decision/wish of our citizenry with regard to Kyoto.

In addition to already having the technology and know how to be able to determine majority public opinion, through various forms of polling, which the State and ruling class then contemptuously, without challenge freely ignores, we have the new technology means of the internet and other forms of technology, to be able to allow the mass of society, were it encouraged and made a part of day to day life, to be able to participate through discussion and voting, in all the affairs of current society-, were it truly "democratic" intuitively and as part of day to day activity, free of authoritarian motivated attempts to control people behaviours, in ways which allow elites to simply, by fiat, over-ride their wishes.

And this is at State/legislative/parliamentary levels of decision making-, already, not at some distant future date. Popular opinion could theoretically and in practice already be in "democratic" control, in place of the elites and their elite systems from an already ancient and outdated time. And we haven't even yet got into the friggin' money we'd save with this kind of a "real" democracy. (We are living in the 21st Century with a form of "parliamentary" democracy evolved by the conquering merchant class elites of 17th Century England, from the time they defeated Charles the 1st in the English Civil War-, as though that were still something desirable, or to be proud of.)

Continued next post...

From previous post...

Additionally, in the workplaces of the nation, any of us common herd who pay attention already know that enterprises run more efficiently, with less conflict, and no less effectively, when the bosses are absent and/or already fuked off home or into their cloistered "management-conspiracy" meetings etc. It was one of the first things I noted about working in hospitals, and on evening shift in the plywood mill, for example. How much more smoothly and conflict free everything worked when the office was gone home and the foremen hid themselves to snooze or whatever it is they did, only putting in a token walk throughs once in a blue moon, to impress us somehow with their presence.

So, the reality is, most workplaces could and do function by simple voluntary employee activity and decision making, and understanding of the production process, especially of senior hands, and are already largely not dependant upon "management" per se. So even in the day to day functioning of near every enterprise, while the majority "benefit" of production processes and economic activity accrue to the "owner elites" and their "managers", simple changes in the process, and assumptions we make about "property" and "management rights", could encourage what already largely exists-, where workers in fact run and manage themselves, and "the bosses", or as easily, with will and the stroke of a pen, backed up by "power", our business. And they are no less capable already, where time is periodically, as needed, set aside for them to meet and make decisions, at work, as management already does, or with simple forms of on the job polling, especially where there are unions or other forms of worker organization, of hiring and firing effective "professional management" to attend to the planning, organizational, and technical details. (Assuming we even need that.) Rather than the arrangement being the current ruling class directed, top down, forms of organization and decision making favoured by the ruling class and their elites, for their own self-serving reasons. Which could quickly be rendered superfluous and undesirable, as well as it is, by and large unpleasant and offensive to all "democratic" sensibilities.

Democracy needs to evolve into a day to day, and more informal, casual arrangment than what the current system of capitalist heirarchies allows for, or is prepared to even tolerate. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't need some thought, arrangement and organization, but that the object of the current system is largely more to simply justify itself, and make these systems of heirarchy seem inevitable, too complex for the "average" mind, and hence indispensible: Without "elites" to "control" us, we will inevitably collapse into animalistic chaos.

Horseshit!

And which is not to suggest that there would not be an initial "learning curve", for there certainly would be. To which everyone would adjust, because our ongoing well being and very survival depends on it. Necessity really being the mother of all invention and adaptation.

And we are not the same illerate, driven from the land peasant stock working-class of 17th Century England. We really are, even the lowest of us, technically more educated/. And we could even quickly be more so, were it all not so "money" driven and controlled by these same owners and their elites.

Indeed, it is the absence of the simple recognition of this reality, with its more egalitarian potential, I suggest, that is a large part of the explanation for that phenomena which is driving folks towards non-participation in bourgeois/ruling class democracy, and worse, into harmful "escapist" , brain numbing activities and recreations.

A ruling class who obscenely "profits" from the labours of all the rest of us, living in their gated, tree lined Marine Drive and other elite communities, and reduces the rest of us to the level of errant children, to be brought to heel like the family dog.?

Who the fuk needs them?

I don't.

Think about it.

My apologies for the length. I simply got carried away. :-)

Peace, order, and good government..........

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/254050.html

Truth will out (no matter the length)

PS Mr. Hobbes believed in the "purity" of complete dictatorship...........

Alcibiades:

your are correct about the Liberal-Labour alliance in early 20th century GB. I started to include that, and the description got too long winded. Similar case with the various US party machinations around the lead up to the Civil War and also the different party periods. The crux is that it is very improbable for a 3rd party to garner enough support to get into first place in one election cycle, and a 2nd cycle won't see enough growth if they have lost ground on policy issues. It also applies to non FPTP systems in most cases.

I actually don't understand the conceptions regarding the role of a "3rd Party"in a non-first past the the post system beyond a possibly more immediate adoption of new policy in efforts by one of the primary parties to maintain or gain power (Germany 98). In some countries the parties in the coalition change very little over time, such as Italy from the 48 elections until the fall of Andreotti in 92. That is an extreme case, where the 2nd strongest party electorally (the Communist PCI) spent long periods refusing to cooperate with parliament or other parties leading to the domination of the PMs position by Christian Democrats. Germany has had some similarities but a more sensible constitution limits issues of confidence and has led to 8 Chancellors since 1949 to Italy's 25 (I think) different PMs leading more than 40 different governments.

The influence of smaller parties is often very limited even in a system that does not rely solely upon FPTP and can take just as long to get their agenda acted upon through acceptance by a large party. The Greens in Germany managed to enact one of their initial platform issues from the 1970's, the dismantling of nuclear power plants in Germany, after 15 years as the 4th or 3rd largest party in the Bundestag and only after the Social Democrats accepted the policy in order to vault Schröder to the Chancellorship. How long did it take the Liberals to become enamoured with public healthcare after the CCF had introduced it on the Provincial level? It was a minority Liberal Parliament that enacted medicare, and that was the 3rd party price for support. The popularity of the policy was such the the Liberals claim it as their own, but it was a decision made only after a 3rd party had started the ball rolling.

Many of the Western European multi-party systems still end up with one of two large parties effectively in government for extended periods of time, and generally speaking the price of cooperation in a coalition is pretty minor concessions by the majority party. Public opinion can move a popular idea forward after a minor party introduces the concept, but when a critical point is reached a major party will move in and usurp anything popular, at least in name. The reality is that the strength of most 3rd parties is limited by the nature of government and not simply the electoral system.

Reading Coyote's long piece was as entertaining as ever, and with some good ideas, but I do not agree with direct response of government to public polling data. Polling provides a snapshot of opinion with reasonable allowance for error, but there are some issues that public opinion is highly variable and open to emotional reaction. I am thinking specifically about capital punishment and the malleable middle that would vote for CP after a story on Bernardo but against CP after a case like Milgaard.

Valid observations for sure Gerhardius. But, I think one thing is missed in that kind of analysis: The idea of worthwhile participation.

I'd advance the idea that much of the frustration and disenchantment with current politics in this country and the way it shakes down at the grass roots level comes from the fact that many voters, in a two party system, turn off the whole exercise.

I don't think that would be the case as often if we had some kind of mixed member proportional representation because even small parties and the folks who share their philosophy, would end up 'participating' in a functioning democratic institution in ways that - to use the greens as an example - just hasn't happened.

It ensures an equity and attention to fairness that is central to the Canadian discourse but almost unheard of in actual practice.

Even if smaller parties don't get to set policy, I think the increasing number of coalition and power-sharing arrangements that seem to evolve in the European model (I was just looking at the Dutch results the other day) would tend to pay huge dividends because people would be far more likely to re-engage in the process.

Just the respect that goes along with providing voice to people's emotions and beliefs would bring something vital to our system that is totally lacking outside the highly elitist and exclusive structures of current Canadian party democracy.

Excellent points, Gerhardius. In this day and age where the media is sometimes bought and biased or simply inept, the facts voters need to make good choices often just isnt' there. BC's media with the Campbell governments goings on is major evidence of this fact. The mob, simply put, isn't always right. Media, leadership, message, if these three are off, democracy fails.

G West:
You do realize that racism and bigotry is more of an old guard than a young one... that it was worse 20 years ago than it was today...

I'll state it one more time. When I go back to the "real" coffee row as you say, I walk into a time capsule. Rural Sask and Alta is simply 10 years behind the times socially, and on several key issues. The same holds true up in the North, never mind the prairies. And what's happening to rural Canada on a whole? Well, its dying. And a lot of that old racist guard is ending up in holes in the ground with a slightly better educated guard to replace it. Clearly, rural Canada is not as racist or East West predjudiced as it once was. If you think its still bad now, take my word for it. It was worse 20 years ago.

Nope, don't agree. That's not the reality I see in Regina and Saskatoon and Calgary and Edmonton and Medicine Hat and Victoria and any part of the west that has a signigicant native and poverty stricken population . It's actually worse that it was 20 years ago and you see more of it in the cities now because the interface between native and white culture has moved from the rural to the urban landscape. 20 years ago there were no beggars on the streets (there were in the DES in Vancouver and I've purposely left it out of this) and virtually no homeless people. 20 years ago the soup kitchen where I spend Saturday mornings didn't exist - now it has more and more 'clients' every month and sometimes we have to turn people away.

There is a scorned underclass in all our cities today and the way they are treated is a racist as anything that ever existed - perhaps worse because the discrepancy between the way the rich live and the way the poor survive is so much more marked and obvious today.

I just don't think you see it brain. Food banks are a growth industry.

I’ll post below here just a few facts you might find interesting:

By taking into consideration total assets minus total debts, the first-ever
study of global wealth distribution finds that a net worth of $2,161 (U.S.)
is enough to belong to the top half of the world's wealth, but to be a
member of the top 10 per cent requires at least $61,000 and membership of
the top 1 per cent requires more than $500,000 per adult.

Where the wealthy live

Percentage breakdown of the world's wealthiest 1%

United States: 37%

Germany: 4%

Italy: 4%

France: 5%

Britain: 6%

Japan: 27%

Netherlands: 2%

Canada: 2%

Spain: 1%

Switzerland: 1%

Taiwan: 1%

Rest of world: 10%

What the rich own

1% of richest adults own 40% of total global wealth

2% of richest adults own 51% of total global wealth

5% of richest adults own 71% of total global wealth

10% of richest adults own 85% of total global wealth

Source: UNU-Wider Richard Johnson

Hate to break it to you, G, but I was firstly talking about "rural" racism, not urban, as that's where Duncan comes from, racism is actually less than it was 20 years ago, at least in "rural" places, and for whatever reason, you think foodbanks and the homeless didn't exist 20 years back. Even 30 years ago. The homeless have always existed, while foodbanks became a reality in the 60's and 70's in the major centers.

You also blame homelessness and poverty on the economy without considering the social factors that have lead to such increases. Try drugs as a big contributor these days. We didn't have cocaine and meth on the streets to this extent 20 years ago. Meth didn't even exist back then and cocaine was only half as available as it is now. What percentage of homeless people do you feel are addicts, instead of simply "wrong place, wrong time victims of the economy poor?"

As it is, your stats on the subject of wealth distrubution are more suited on the previous thread.

There are problems with every devisable system of democracy. And as for this "snapshot" notion, with which I much disagree, the same is no less true of the "party whipped" votes of the formal "money controlled", so-called parliamentary system. Or where state opinion is more moulded than by "democratic will", snapshot or otherwise, as a consequence of outside pressures, vis a vis the US and Canada for example-, where "considered opinion" becomes merely a chickenshit response to US demand or ruling class threats to withdraw their capital offshore etc.

There is again, no devisable system of democracy that will always protect us from human error-, including the criminal fraud laden, ruling class patronage favoured and controlled current parliamentary system.

Polling determination of national will, even augmented by other emerging high tech options, would certainly do no less harm, likely less, and would certainly be much more reflective of broad popular democractic decision making than the status quo FPTP, elitist controlled system, which by and large actually works against democratic "public opinion". Indeed, were it in place already, we would not be in NAFTA, proceeding into the NAU regardless of the "national wish", in the Gulf doing interdiction duty for Amerika's "War on Terruh", in Afghanistan, or otherwise identifired with US imperialism.

You may, from up in that ivory tower, find "direct" democracy more entertaining than practical-, but I think the practical evidence is indeed au contraire, and almost certainly a whole hell of a lot less expensive than the current eat all you want, and ignore the "will of the people" feed trough system of current bourgeoise serving democracy.

"Democracy by polls" at the state level, and the "direct worker-public management of enterprises" at the level of the economy may be "some" over-simplistic to a particular elite mindset, or even actually in the initial prep of it that I have posted here, and would doubtless prove in need of fine tuning over the course of its evolution. But that even said, even on the mere surface of it, it clearly has the potential to serve society and the needs of the mass of people, at least no less, and almost certainly more than the status quo "money and elite controlled" model of democracy we are now saddled with.

The working masses, like women of recent history and still, and blacks of the time of slavery, have always been viewed by ruling classes and their elites, as social and intellectual "inadequates"-, like the peasants of feudalism. Echoing your views here pretty much. To which I only respond again, horseshitt! All that has always been lacking, by and large, is will, the opportunity, sufficient free time to engage in politics, and organization.

Working class folks reading such as Gerhardius, and some others here, really need to consider the sources and how they view us intellectually beneath them, and that they are as likely to err in their judgement as we. It is only they who think their shitt smells like bouquets of roses.

The brain
Rural, Urban, Schmerban the west is full of racism brain and if you think that the discourse on a site like Tyee amounts to much I think you're mistaken. I still reject your notion that things are getting better. And I totally reject the idea that Liberals will ever save anything but their own asses.

In fact, things and the Liberals are getting worse. Food banks are a goddamned growth industry for heavens sake.

And ignoring poverty is a racist mentality too, in my books.

I'm more and more attracted to the creativity and courage of my brothers and sisters in Mexico. I think they may just about have had enough and, if Skookum1 is right (and he knows that situation much better than I do) the police and the army may well join their little bun toss against the elitist crooks who've held them in chains for generations.

Instead, we put up with an RCMP commissioner who can't even manage to keep his lies straight.

Pathetic. You show where the barricades are going up Coyote, and I'm with you

You have not once heard me mention "barricades" GWest. Like you, in fact, I don't see any going up anywhere in this country, which may well be part of the problem. :-) Indeed, I would say we are a long ways away from there yet, if it ever comes to that at all. At the same time, I don't see a great deal of NDP success to be pointed to either. (Which is why, I suggest, not entirely incorrectly, Brain can suggest that there is not much difference, in practice, to be found between voting NDP and Liberal. Both will produce about the same final result, and have already historically. Which, for me, is not to suggest that I advocate for it. I would rather advocate for voting for neither of them, in fact. Though I think, while not advocating for it, that the NDP is about to pay a steep price in this next election, for effacing itself the way it has, with its "nice" and "good capitalist government" preoccupations, and that Brain may well be proven right with a huge vote for the Liberals in the next Federal election.)

It is the malaise the entire "left", speaking loosely in its NDP/Liberal manifestations, is currently in. And which to get out of, I suggest, current assumptions need to be challenged.

The current direction and left behaviour pattern in this country, which has tended to favour the NDP, appears to be coming to an end. It is the NDP itself that crossed-over to the Liberals, in manpower and policies, and we all really know it.