Topic
Softwood deal pours $450 million straight into White House, says U.S. lawyer.
Turning trade deal into Republican ammo?
[Editor's note: On August 21 in Ottawa, the Standing Committee on International Trade heard a U.S. trade lawyer damn the proposed softwood lumber agreement as a terrible deal for Canadians. Elliot J. Feldman of Baker & Hostetler LLP argued that Canada caved at a moment of strength, given that international rulings continued to land firmly on our side. Instead, Feldman argued, this deal will kill the NAFTA process which has favoured Canada's position, and forfeit at least a billion dollars plus hundreds of millions of dollars more in interest that would have come our way had our negotiators hung tough.
Feldman, who is based in Washington, D.C., offered one more bit of startling analysis, excerpted below. The deal, he said, will funnel nearly half a billion dollars directly to George Bush's White House, creating a political "slush fund" available to the Republicans and the U.S. timber industry for waging future campaigns.]
Honorable members, responsibility for this deal ultimately resides with the government and with you, not the industry. It has been forced on the industry for political reasons. No one in the industry likes it, but many believe they have no choice and, therefore, many have already accepted it.
I want to talk for a few minutes about the genesis of this agreement and one of its most important and least discussed elements. There is a bit of Watergate in this story and, as in Watergate, it is essential to follow the money. Back before Christmas, David Emerson, then minister in a Liberal government, and his ambassador in Washington, Frank McKenna, were asking what it would cost to buy peace in softwood lumber. They were adhering to all of the usual Canadian negotiating positions on this subject: protecting Chapter 19 in NAFTA, fending off onerous anti-circumvention clauses, protecting Canadian prerogatives. But, unlike any previous dispute, this one involved the accumulation of over 4 billion, now 5 billion, dollars. And there was the Byrd Amendment, which led the U.S. industry to believe that if it could just stall long enough to wear down the Canadians, while claiming title to all of the money, they could settle for a lot of it. They knew the Canadians had brought a case in U.S. courts that could prohibit them from claiming any of the money pursuant to the Byrd Amendment. They demanded a 60/40 split back at Christmas.
Messieurs Emerson and McKenna negotiated to 50/50 and then asked industry. Industry calculated net present value against litigation prospects, and said "no." But, in the process, Messieurs McKenna and Emerson asked what would be enough. At that time, under those circumstances, they were told 70 per cent. Think, then of how impressed Mr. Emerson was with himself when in April, he could tell industry that he got 80 per cent. But, there were at least four huge problems, and he had neglected all of them.
'Legally entitled to not a penny'
First, on April 7, the United States Court of International Trade ruled that the U.S. industry was entitled legally to no money. None of it. It was not surprising then, that 20 days later, the U.S. coalition said that it would take $500 million. It was hardly a negotiating triumph to persuade them to take $500 million, when they had become legally entitled to not a penny.
Second, net present value at the end of April was not the same as it was at Christmas, especially as the pot kept growing. Canadian industry had in mind a fixed sum for the coalition, maybe as much as $150 million, not half a billion. Third, it was not quite as obvious in the two and a half page term sheet of April 27, that Canada would give away everything that the previous government had been defending in order to complete a deal, because political priorities had changed so radically. And fourth, the term sheet promised a major joint initiative to improve North American competitiveness. The "remainder" -- that was the word the terms said -- would go to so-called "meritorious initiatives" in the United States.
Industry was troubled by this last development. It wondered why it was providing foreign aid to the United States, but it was also reassured that the sum would be small. More impressively, Minister Emerson told CEOs that, as long as they were getting back 80 per cent of their money, it was none of their business what would happen to the rest. He was, by all accounts, very blunt on this subject. And, meanwhile, we were advised by negotiators that the White House had taken a direct and active interest in this money, but that Canadian industry ought to focus on other things. As the minister had said, it was not really their concern. The "remainder," then, became $450 out of $500 million dollars.
'Gift of $450 million to the president'
That, honorable members, is a colossal sum of money. It certainly got the U.S. government, as well as the coalition getting the other $500 million, committed to the deal. It is astonishing how little, nothing really, the Canadian Government got in exchange for it. And let's understand this money -- the $500 million -- not the coalition's money, about which you heard some on July 31, but the rest.
Some perspective. At the height of the Watergate scandal, focus was on an illegal slush fund available to the Committee to Re-Elect the President, that was thought to be tipping the balance of American politics. The fund never exceeded $20 million. One of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon was that he received foreign campaign donations, perhaps as much as $50,000. Both by statute and by the United States Constitution, gifts of money to the United States must go to the treasury and be appropriated by Congress. The lone, aberrant and still controversial exception has been money donated in the immediate aftermath of the emergency created by Hurricane Katrina, and the sums involved were very small.
So, here we have the government of Canada requiring that Canadian private parties sign over $450 million to an escrow fund slated to be conveyed to the White House. The agreement does not mention Congress, and the Bush administration says that Congress will not be involved in any way with this agreement. The government of Canada thus is making a gift of $450 million to be spent by the president. That was more than a belt buckle, even more than a stetson, on July 6th. There is only one date certain in the deal: that the planned expenditure of the $450 million must be determined by September 1.
Political blowback?
Curious, that date, which traditionally is the kick-off for campaigns in the United States in election years. Yes, it's an election year, and the Republican control of Congress is considered in trouble. The entire Republican campaign war chest is less than $300 million. Canada will add to it by 150 per cent in funds to be expended for "meritorious initiatives." It does not require much imagination to foresee the strategic places where this money will be spent.
This peace on softwood lumber will probably not improve Canada's relations with the United States, because this colossal sum of money is going to the White House, not the U.S. Treasury. When the Democratic party learns of it and understands it, it's not likely to be pleased, and it's possible that, despite the infusion of such money, the Democrats nevertheless will win in November. Canada may then have much improved relations with the Republican party but not with the United States.
During questions following Feldman's presentation, NDP MP Peter Julian (New Westminster/Burnaby) noted the "quite a staggering revelation that the funding of $450 million would be, if I understand it, under the control of the White House; Congress would have no say and Canada would have no say as to the use of that money. And, hence, in a mid-term election year we would be giving $450 million to a massive political fund." Feldman responded:
This is in my view an historic, unprecedented, astounding intrusion into American politics. We searched all the way back to the Revolution and found nothing like it in American history. And the question that I came this morning to put is, "Will the Parliament of Canada accept responsibility for possibly tipping the balance in American politics in preserving the control of Congress by the president's party?" This softwood lumber agreement is an historic moment in part because of that proposition, and it's up to this Parliament to decide whether it will accept the responsibility. That responsibility cannot be shifted and, indeed, that money inevitably will go to shore up the electoral aspirations of the Republican party through the president -- it's not going to be touched by Congress -- it's going through an escrow fund. And these are questions that could impact American politics for generations and impact relations between Canada and the United States for generations to come. And that is entirely in the hands of this Parliament.
Mr. Julian: So what you're saying is that we are not only providing money to the coalition to fight further legal victories, for further legal battles -- giving half a billion dollars to them -- but we're also providing money that may go to political purposes for the re-election of Republicans, many of whom have been the most adamant against allowing free trade in lumber. It is ridiculous.
Mr. Feldman: The provision in Article 13.A.2 of the agreement, which recites the meritorious initiatives, is language which could be defined only as a slush fund for the president.
Elliot J. Feldman is a partner of the law firm Baker Hostetler and represents clients in Europe, Asia, Latin America and Australia. He is the former director of the University Consortium for Research on North America at Harvard University and is a director of the Canadian-American Business Council. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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Capitalism
6 years ago
Comments on "Bush 'Slush Fund,' Courtesy of Canada"
Interesting article and these are very legitimate concerns. All I can say is that I favour the deal. I favour a resolution. This deal is slated to go 6 (I believe) years, and while not perfect - it is very workable.
If we continue to fight this - I can guarantee one thing - we will still be fighting in six years. The money is legally ours (well it belongs to Canfor and the other forest companies that you all hate) - and we are cleary right here.
However, there is nothing we can do. Like it or not, the US can flex its muscles and leave us in the cold. It's not fair, but neither is life.
With all the provinces and the vast majority of industry favouring this deal - it too will jump off the sidelines and join the support team.
This might not be perfect, but it is suitable. Our products will enter the U.S. duty free - though our imports will be capped. Not free trade - but pretty close.
We will not get all the cash back - but most if it, and this can be used to upgrade mills, etc.
As far as the $450 million to Bush - Peter Julian can put a sock in it. Clinton ignored our calls too - in fact, Bush has been very responsive since Harper got into power. He refused to deal with people that would not show him an ounce of respect (Chretien/Martin) and quite frankly, I don't blame him.
We have far bigger concerns at play here than where the $450 million goes. Let's get our industry back on a level (or close to level) playing ground.
Capitalism
6 years ago
The other thing - before we jump to conclusions - let's not assume that Bush can direct this spending to an election campaign.
I am sure it isn't that easy....I think this might be fear mongering at its finest. I do find it funny how the lefties continually use the Bush card.
When it comes down to it - we have to ask ourselves - are we better off?? You must ask this in contrast to the alternative??
Jack's
6 years ago
I agree Capitalism....
We can never win a trade war with the Americans.
That said however - the lessons we are experiencing in this ridiculous "free" trade agreement (NAFTA) have not gone unnoticed by the South American countries - or even (and especially) China.
What goes around comes around and the Americans may find that the aim of their guns has been directed at their feet.
Jeffrey J.
6 years ago
Excellent journalism! Like many of Tyee's stellar pieces, this should be on page one or two of the Vancouver Sun. Alas, will it even make page 10? Feldman's courage for speaking out should be noted and applauded. The turn towards ever more concentration of power continues. It is the duty of every person to speak out against these abuses if we wish to retain western democracy in its present form. Thank you again Tyee and Mr. Feldman.
Grumpy
6 years ago
It seems that our PM caved in to Bush over softwood. Why? Is he taking orders directly from the American President? Is he trying to curry favour? Is he trying to do a (can't count'em) Joe Clark with the next election.
Haper's softwood deal reaks of Quizzlingism, that he is not a patriotic Canadian rather a pan American, kow-towing to who ever is in charge in Washington.
Why not an export tax on energy to the US?
The Americans are not our friends, but a giant leach which sucks the life blood from any and everyone it befriends. It is best to cut the apron strings now and say adieu. And to our American loving Canadian friends always appologizing for Uncle Sam, if you don't like it, move South...I hear that housing is very cheap in New Orleans!
jacked
6 years ago
'I favour a resolution' says Capitalism. You are nuttier than a fruitcake my friend. This so called deal if ratified by Parliament is nothing more than a sellout. I can't wait for another election to remove these treansonist bastards who negotiated this deal.
MyBrainIsOnFire
6 years ago
omigawd can this get any worse...goddamn craven christian loons always helping each other. bush blair harper the son and the holy ghost and the sellout
relayer
6 years ago
Wouldn't it be nice if, just once, our politicians, of whatever stripe, grew a spine and a set of balls and told the US to get stuffed? I firmly believe that Canadians would support ANY political party that did so.
moodyguy
6 years ago
Unbelievable
Whether the money goes to the Republicans or to Micky Mouse, the purpose of this deal is to get the thing done so that the conservatives can say they "solved" the issue that the Liberals couldn't. They did it by essentially giving away the farm to an administration that is pretty lame right now. As we are heading into midterm elections, not everything is rosy down south. A slowdown is happening, & Americans, like it or not, vote based on domestic concerns so I would not like to be a republican down there right now (even if Bush can keep them convinced they are at war with ???? who is the flavour of the day today).
The deal is a lousy deal. Canadian industry (including those elements that are American owned) has increasingly become more competitive in the US and will continue to build its competitive abilities that can be applied in the US market. However barring a few more hurricanes that market is about to get considerably smaller, at least in the near term. Not only could Canadian industry use that extra billion $ right now but if the housing boom down south has cooled, by this deal the Canadian industry is being capped at a % of what will be a shrinking market.
Any chance of exporting Harper and Emerson to the US, I would like them to negotiate for the other side, we would be much better off that way.
boots
6 years ago
Thanks to Elliot J Feldman for stating the facts.
And thanks to Tyee for doing the leg work to get it posted.
Just think what Harper would do with a majority.
It's just another step in the assimilation of Canada by the U.S.
Wake up Canada your getting screwed
Bailey
6 years ago
Bribery.
Kickback.
Malfeasance.
Money laundering.
Organized crime.
Breach of trust.
Betrayal of sworn duties.
Just a short vocabulary list for our loyal opposition or for our 'free' press to peruse.
G West
6 years ago
Capitalism/Maybelle
You've got to be kidding. Shake your head again.
I told you months ago these guys were bad news and your only reaction now is 'Peter Julian can put a sock in it'.
No wonder your buddy Campbell looked so sheepish when he announced that BC would be going along just a few days after Canada won the day with the international trade decision. Obviously Harper was squeezing his nether regions because of the Sept 1 dead line.
BC Mary and I picked up on this more than a week ago and you think it's just fine!
Since your post about loving to get shitfaced and then hit the tables in Vegas, you've reached a new low this morning. Why don't you mail the Americans your manhood along with the money.
Logjam 603
6 years ago
so a bunch of lawyers, probably pissed off becasue their gravy train in billings is drying up, complains and you folks drink their kool-aid ?
Case closed. If we didn't subsidize our lumber industry with the bizzare stumpage rates and the "fell here/cut here" mentality, this wouldn't be an issue - just look at New Brunswick for example.
Good work Steve, getting the deal done.
G West
6 years ago
jammer
You're so deep in the Kool-Aid it's coming out your eyes man. Have you no pride? Are there no lengths an Albertan won't go to to make another dollar?
RickW
6 years ago
Cap & Jam:
How, if I may be so bold to as to inquire? The loss of 30,000 + jobs has removed billions in wages that went directly into the economy that ordinary Canadians experience daily. Moreover, those 30,000 people for the most part are being subsidized through EI, welfare, etc., which is nothing less than a backdoor subsidy to the logging companies.
So how is this workable? Ah, you mean to the shareholders...is that it? (Wonder how many of these shareholders are at work cutting the trees....?)
(Wonder how many of these shareholders are keeping their dividends in Canada.....?)
So how is this "workable" again? I didn't hear you the first time.....must be the noise of the chainsaws......
murdock
6 years ago
Bailey posted:
Just a short vocabulary list for our loyal opposition or for our 'free' press to peruse.
lets not forget that the 'loyal' opposition included Emerson, the architect of this deal.
murdock
6 years ago
all sides of the 'political' spectrum are hip deep in this mess and ready to cave in to pressure.
our system is so corrupted by the bureaucrats in it, I think that a 'clean sweep' is needed.
next time vote independant, I don't care which candidate, just not any of the 'established' ones!
RickW
6 years ago
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060827104314652
Realist
6 years ago
Once again we see how the neocons keep their political edge while incresing their wealth at the cost of everyone else. Hopefully, this blatant political gift will help to wake up the people of Canada and demand real leaders who are in office to serve the people and not to line each others pockets. We simply can not afford to continue to let this to happen again and again. Once again we are sheep for the fleecing.
greenalbertan
6 years ago
I'm going to wade out of the rhetoric here for a minute and ask a legitimate question: Is the deal done? I know that a preliminary agreement was reached, but doesn't parliament have to vote on/ratify the deal? I haven't heard of this being done, but I could be wrong.
DPL
6 years ago
Of course this article will never make headlines in this country. Our so called Free Trade agreement, provided by Lying Brian is a whitewash.( Hey we are agaisnt free trade said Brian, and suddenly we have it) The U.S. wants, they get. Wonder why the lumber and raw logs seem to mostly go to the US of A.
Oh I get it, the companies would have to spend more, the politicians would have to work a bit to find markets.
In the article NDP MP was asking questions. Wonder where everyone else was. The shameful thing is the Liberals, now leaderless will fall into line and vote for this mess.Oh did the vote happen today? Sorry we missed it. When Will the next event screwing us happen? Probrably quite soon. Loss of tax dollars, jobs , small towns, who cares? Not Harpo and gang for sure.
Grumpy
6 years ago
Don't Canadian politico's get it? The Americans hate wimps and treat them with disdain! Harper just made Canada an international laughing stock, with this.
Sadly Cnada's hopelessly inept bureaucrats are behinf this one and Harper, proving that he is stupider than Clark has fallen into the trap.
Someone mentioned a good house cleaning of the bureaucracy, it ain't never going to happen. The only way to clean house is to liquidate the lot.
Canada is slowly sinking into a sea of mediocrity, where the 'Peter Principle' (you know the one, everyone rises to their own level of incompetence) is proven minute by minute!
Grumpy
6 years ago
Time to get a new keyboard!
nightbloom
6 years ago
You'll like this one. Good link for the sidebar:
Canada University Lampoons Bush in Bid to Attract Students:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5294690.stm?ls
"A small Canadian university has sparked controversy with its recruitment drive by using posters and a website mocking US President George W Bush...."
jesterjogger
6 years ago
And don't forget that even as natural resources are being raped from Canada we are getting an influx of wealthy americans buying property all over BC in return. And they seem to be bringing their mean-spirited , divisive, republican politics.
Wow what a deal!!!!!!
Jack's
6 years ago
I can't believe any of you would think that Bush would be brazen enough to redirect this money to a campaign. That would be a bigger scandal than the White Sox 'throwing' the world series.
Quite frankly I don't think it's possible because there are strict laws precluding that behavior - even in the U.S. Besides, if it were discovered by the Democrats and/or the media, all hell would break loose.
Even the Fox media would pick up the story.
Chicken Little
6 years ago
Combine the huge payment to the Bush administration, the hurried backing of a lost war in Afghanistan, thus putting Canadians there for a long time trying to save the neo-con bacon, the push to increase the number of standing members of the Canadian forces by aggressive recruiting campaigns and waiving of some security checks on applicants, and the still unexplained chunks of money given to the Harper campaign, and I think we have a little "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" going on across the border.
(Yechhh! What a horrible picture that just put in my mind.)
Also, any money we might get from the softwood lumber deal immediately goes back to the U.S. in a no-bid contract for Boeing heavy-lift aircraft, which will be of very little use to Canada unless we will be feeding our soldiers and money into American-instigated wars for decades to come.
We have the water, resources, oil and wood and the backing of the trade tribunals. Why are we cowering? Because we have been massively set up. Meanwhile we have been removed from Kyoto for no good reason and look like fools to the rest of the world for Harper's stand on Israel's massacre of Lebanese civilians in supposed self-defense.
Once Harper and Co. have finished trashing our reputation to the rest of the world, our only buddies will be neo-cons to the south, who have also trashed their country's name and impoverished its people.
There will be winners in this mess alright, but it won't be any of us.
cosmo
6 years ago
This agreement has as its central point quotas that guarantees limits on access to the US markets in the 30% range.
Capitalism and all the hacks are fools. This is an anti-free trade agreement. Given the huge domination of large forestry firms (mostly American anyway), it will be virtually impossible for small/startup firms to have free access to the American markets at all.
Nevermind the half-billion give-away. How can any Canadian - right or left wing - justify this one. It is a sell-out by sicko-Stevo and Davey Fliperson.
The most striking thing wathcing the committee presentations was how Emmerson tried to defend it as being in the interests of "the industry". However, it is the British Columbian people who own this wood, and Emmerson and Harpers have gravely violated their duty to the owners. Brutal by any standards.
rkewen
6 years ago
Thank you Steven Harper, for nothing, by the way how much vaseline were you required to provide for your bum buddy, Chimpy McFlightSuit!
yooper
6 years ago
I smell a rat here.
In accordance with US law, this money must go to the US Treasury. Only Congress, not the President, can spend money from the treasury. In any case, none of this money is available for political campaigns.
Campaign contributions from foreign sources are strictly forbidden by US law.
I see no way for this money to end up in Bush's hands.
Gerhardius
6 years ago
Slush funds are nothing new, the bulk of the Western side of the Cold War was financed by slush funds. There are laws in place dictating where the money the US keeps should go, but there are plenty of ways that they have managed to move money from the US Treasury into private and semi-private hands.
G West
6 years ago
Mais Oui Gerhardius.
Remember the kerfuffle about the donations for the Democrats that came from China in 2000?
With no new restrictions on 'soft money' it wouldn't be hard to find a way for funds to trickle into GOP coffers. After all, this is a mid-term election coming up in November - nowhere nearly the kind of press scrutiny on those because there's no presidential race. The Sept. deadline, especially in light of the Canadian win at the WTO level, is very suspicious.
frank2
6 years ago
Yooper: The money would not need to go directly to GOP coffers -- only to support ""meritorious initiatives"" in heavily contested districts.
I do hope that everyone will write to his/her MP to reject this agreement.
Gerhardius
6 years ago
G West,
Chinagate was fantastic! I also enjoyed Gunrunnergate, but I think the best effort of the late-80's revolved around church groups cicumventing section 501 of the IRS regulations for non-profits to funnel massive amounts to the Republicans. The question at the time was what, aside from the morality crusade from DC, could they get out of it? Federal funding for faith based initiatives!
When a defence contractor or some other large corp makes donations you know how they get their cash back, but for the religious groups it seemed so morals based. Until Jim Baker was nailed and the whole thing had to be rebuilt. When W took office they actually had, for the 1st time, a President who was 100% "their man" and all manner of crap hits the fan. The entire "Faith Based Inititatives" scam is a perfect way to funnel money to friendly religious groups at the expense of other programs. It is right up there with privatising public schools and prisons: convenient ways to implement "solutions" that line the pockets of donors.
On a side note, a friend was manager of a hotel where some US televangelist association was having a conference. The legend was true: the rooms booked for the conference spent 1.5x the weekend rom average on in room porn.
Bytesmiths
6 years ago
The issue is control of such funds. Of course the Repubs are not so stupid as to simply buy campaign ads and air time with such money! But they can spend it in battleground districts -- it's amazing what sort of support you can get by suddenly cleaning up a long-standing EPA SuperFund site, while thumping your chest and saying how "green" you are.
As a newly-minted Canadian (landed May 3), I'm pretty disgusted with the whole affair -- as well as some of the "roll over and take it up the but" attitudes of some people posting here.
killer butterfly
6 years ago
jack'scan't believe bush would be brazen enough? warrentless wire taps are illegal, that has not stopped bush.
thedubc
6 years ago
Capitalism & Jack... I quote: "However, there is nothing we can do. Like it or not, the US can flex its muscles and leave us in the cold. It's not fair, but neither is life."
Let's think outside the continent for a change shall we? The US is SO dependent of Canadian products it's not funny. They are fair weather friends at best and treat us like a little bitch because if we finally realized how much power we hold over the US, we might actually do something about it. Instead, we let US corps own all the rights to our resources, so we can never back out of any deals. Is that what you mean by being left out in the cold Captialism?
The USA was wrong, wrong, wrong how many times? Their own court system found them at fault... twice, nevermind the WTO and NAFTA panels. Everyone knows the US doesn't give a shit about any country, nevermind Canada, but Canadian politicians & corporations still think the US is the only customer in the world for our products & services.
Laughable. Pure corporate laziness. We could be selling our already whored out resources to China, India, and Europe at a considerably greater scale, but for Europe's refusal to purchase most of our resources based on our unsustainable practices, but we're lazy. Shit flows downhill, and so it seems, does Canada / US trade.
I'm tired of the capitalist / corporatist refrain that we are so helpless in our trade with the US. I'm tired of eveyone giving in to the supposed US might. A country with a credit card does not a power make.
As for Steve & his back dorr sellout of anything resembling Canadian values, I won't go there as it's just to vast and will lead me too far afield from the actual topic at hand.
G West
6 years ago
Bytesmiths
Nice to see a post from you again brother. I was wondering how your great Canadian adventure was going.
Don't be a stranger - things are getting pretty interesting up here these days...as a stroll round these threads will soon reveal.
G West
6 years ago
Gerhardius
Now that was funny! Always wondered how 'weak' the fundamentalist flesh actually was...I had my suspicions. Certainly Falwell, Baker and company never lacked for a healthy libido. Wasn't it St Augustine who said something along the lines of 'God make me chaste, but not yet'?
hannibal
6 years ago
Yea, this is a great birthday gift for the chimp a Stetson , belt buckle and a half a billion dollars to get the creeps re-elected .
Only someone totally naieve believes that the shrub cannot access this money .
Give your phuquing head a shake and now shake it again .
This entire deal was manufactured by the lumber lobby in the US where surprise surprise a good number are Republican's .
This is theft by conversion and is punishable by law. Can you say grand larceny .
Harpo is the dumbest sack of shyte to ever sit in the PM's chair . Period .
Thank God the morons days are numbered .
No the deal has not been ratified or even voted on by Canadians .
I implore you to write to Gilles Duceppe as the ball is firmly in his court .
I am sending him a copy of this article for his perusal .
rkewen
6 years ago
G West,
Some fundie organization recently did a study themselves to find out if porn was a problem to the born again crowd. By their own definitions and based on their own questions of their own peeeeples the results were something like
Male fundies (Xtians) 60-80 addicted to porn
Females of the flock 20-30 addicted.
I kid thee not, this is their own study. It was somewhere like RawStory or What Really Happened (the link to their fundie pub)- a bit of efficient googling would probably find it in a flash, it was recent. I almost harmed myself, cause I laughed so hard. By the way Arnie the Gropenator has alienated the fundies and is now cojoined with Satan as far as they are concerned. He signed a "Gay Rights" bill into law in California that they claim will require California students to become homos to graduate. It reminds me of the nonsense going on in Vancouver today over the "Gay Agenda" in the schools. At the risk of sounding racist, it seemed to me that most of the protesters were Asian, Chinese to be precise. I always thought most Chinese folks came here for the Freedom. Guess not, eh? I mean if you don't want everyone to have freedom, go back to China, they still persecute Homersexualsd there, I am told, so maybe you shoulda stayed.
rkewen
6 years ago
the above should read 60-80% and so on!
it's percentages not individuals whackos.
hannibal
6 years ago
Founded in the late 1940s, the GATT/WTO was for almost 40 years the primary trade contract between Canada and the U.S.
In all of that time, the United States was never able to levy a countervailing or anti-dumping duty on our exports of lumber. During those four decades, Canada traded profitably, our standard of living rose, Canada won almost all its trade disputes with the U.S. -- and Washington abided by the rulings.
By the mid-1980s, 90 per cent of Canadian lumber entered the U.S. tariff free and the duties on the remaining 10 per cent were negligible.
It was only when Canada decided to turn away from the multilateral framework of trade rules with the U.S. and enter into a bilateral one-on-one "free trade" agreement with the U.S. in the mid-1980s, that U.S. industry saw its opportunity and used it. It has been using it ever since.
Under the FTA and NAFTA, it is U.S. law which now applies to all of Canada's exports in countervailing, anti-dumping and related disputes with America. The dispute panels are limited to deciding if the U.S. has applied its own law correctly.
Furthermore, the U.S. can at any time amend its trade law without Canada's agreement and, on lumber alone, it has done so three times to Canada's great disadvantage.
In other words, the FTA and NAFTA, instead of giving us more secure U.S. market access, unleashed the full force of U.S. protectionism to be used against Canada in a way that was not possible under GATT/WTO.
As for the dispute settlement mechanism, touted repeatedly as "the crown jewel" of the FTA, it bears repeating that all agreements end when the negotiated means of resolution are discarded by either player.
The answer is not to shake our fists or shout meaningless threats at America. The answer is to simply return to the safer, more effective, already existing multilateral WTO framework of which Canada and the U.S. are both still members.
Under the WTO, we have all the levers to get back the $5 billion the U.S. has taken in lumber tariffs and to make sure it doesn't happen again.
When Washington not long ago threatened hefty steel duties against Europe, Japan and a number of other steel exporters, Europe triggered the WTO retaliatory process and the Bush administration backed down.
The same defences are available to Canada under the WTO.
Since signing the FTA and NAFTA, the United States has taken 10 trade actions against the Canadian Wheat Board, Canada's largest net earner of foreign currency, and we now have U.S. tariffs against our wheat exports.
In all the years of trading with the U.S. under GATT, the Americans never launched a single formal action against the wheat board, because they knew they could not win.
The essence of the FTA and NAFTA is that they cede vital government powers to the U.S. and the private sector that were used to build an independent Canada.
What the U.S. wants out of the repeated challenges against Canadian lumber exports is to wear Canada down until it agrees to privatize its crown-owned forests, opening them to direct U.S. ownership.
In grain, Washington wants an end to the wheat board. This would see the Canadian grain trade move virtually overnight into U.S. hands.
There is a simple way out, without bluster or insults. Canada does not have to give up ownership of its forests, its industries and its institutions.
With a simple letter to the U.S., under FTA Article 2106, NAFTA Article 2205, Canada can, with six months notice, withdraw from these agreements without penalty and without conditions.
Our trading relations with the U.S. will then automatically revert back to the GATT/WTO framework of international law, which will enable us to both maintain our institutions and trade profitably with the U.S.
All of the intolerable NAFTA rights U.S. companies now have over Canada — to sue the Canadian government, to overturn Canadian laws, to control our exports and energy prices — would disappear. Canada would regain its status as a sovereign nation.
hannibal
6 years ago
Above article credited to DAvid Orchard.
rkewen
6 years ago
Awesome information, hannibal! This whole softwood issue has been especially sickening since the ascension of the pretend PM and his evil Mr. E.
Frank
6 years ago
rkewan, I think its in bad taste to use the word whackos when referring to the porn-addicted
rkewen
6 years ago
hannibal earlier you said,
It would be appropriate to specify by adding the southeastern states lumber lobby. When shitwood trees grow fast and rednecks are cheap to hire and fire. All lumber companies in the west, especially in the Pacific Northwest aren't so happy about the Harper sell out or the Softwood Tariff to begin with, because their interests are more aligned with those of BC, often by inter-locking ownership to boot. This cash giveaway is of no benefit to any NW lumber producers and of no benefit to any American builders or homebuyers. The tariff itself didn't do much for Pacific Northwest Producers, they didn't suffer for market share, the US cannot supply its own needs in fiber period and hardly anywhere in the world can produce the quality of forest product found from Northern California through Oregon, Washington B.C. and Alaska.
But who would expect that old whore Emerson or that broken brained ideologue Harper to understand any of this. They both probably believe Chimpy McFlightSuit has a dream for a New World of Freedom and Prosperity for all(good born agains with bucks).
climber
6 years ago
Many of the same people who are anti logging, or want to severly limit logging, almost to the point of stopping it, are here now crying over big companies that they also dislike getting fuked out of some jake. How about all the loggers quit logging and move, seeing as logging is so bad and G. Bush shouldn't get his hands on any of this money. Stupid as it sounds to me, I bet this idea would have a lot of support on this site.
rkewen
6 years ago
Frank,
If the name fits.......etc.
Frank
6 years ago
lost my smiley there
G West
6 years ago
Frank
How was your holiday?
If you've a minute, and the inclination, send me an email at
rkewen
6 years ago
Climber, logging will either be done in a sustainable fashion or it won't be done at all - eventually. Ask the folks in Forks, Washington, once the trees are gone, bingo, no logging. I know it seems like an endless supply to city folks or pretend high riggers, such as I suspect some people of being. But it's pretty simple. Cut 'em, pocket the money, run and leave the loggers to learn how to manufacture burgers and PRAY someone wants to come to a clearcut and eat a burger, without any shade.
hannibal
6 years ago
ROTFLMAO Rkewen .Chimpy Mcflightsuit.
Made me blow a toke I laughed so hard .
climber
6 years ago
Pretend high riggers, is that an insult directed at me boy?, steel towers replaced high riggers many years back. Maybe guys climb up a bit to hang a block for lift, thats about it now. I just climb and top, or cut down, not a high-rigger, they are men of legend. Ask the folks on the B.C. coast, who are logging once clearcut land again if its gone forever. You are just spouting treehugger speak like some skinny guy and his g/f that has hair under her arms in a cafe on Commercial Drive. Keep spewing, the trees keep growing.
jrb
6 years ago
"Capitalism" said:
"However, there is nothing we can do. Like it or not, the US can flex its muscles and leave us in the cold. It's not fair, but neither is life."
Last time I checked, Canada had considerable exports of energy and lunber to the US. Perhaps we should export our resouces to where they may be more appreciated (like China, for example), and let the southern bastards freeze (or bake) in the dark (or in their stranded SUVs).
rkewen
6 years ago
This is off Topic, but something I ran across at Alternet in an article about the real President of the United States:
Dead-eye Dickhead "5 deferments and other priorities" Cheney, is just sooooo funny I had to share it with my friends at the Tyee.
.
I couldn'ta said it mo'betta meself!
rkewen
6 years ago
Well climber boy, I used to be one of those non-existent riggers, rigging the backend, not the classic old time spar tree. Just a selection from 40' mini towers with shotgun carriages through various Madils to a 120' Skagit with eight guylines, what did you do in the war daddy.? But the fact is, the adult loggers in Forks will be finished cooking hamburgers long before there is anything bigger than a pulp log that you load sideways on the truck - unless they get into the Olympic Park and get to EXPLOIT it as well, and that just postpones the inevitable and wrecks a beautiful irreplaceble part of the earth.
AND YEAH, by the way, I do love the earth and it is my mother (or father, who knows), I couldn't be alive without it's bounty - you got some other ultimate life support or happen to be alien or something. I need clean air, clean water and food that doesn't poison me, maybe you are tougher somehow and can survive on smog and toxic waste and can do without water for days like a camel. As I said, I'm not that tough, and doubt my grandchildren will be either!
climber
6 years ago
You rigged those for those old towers, good for you, I climb but I know that cutting off branches and tops was just a small part of a high riggers job. Back rigging can't have been a a walk in the park either. Now I know that, I'm kind of impressed, I haven't spent much time in your area, sorry the wood takes so long to come back. Here on the Charlottes I have climbed spruce trees that are way over 100' tall, on a block that was logged between the wars. There are blocks along the ocean that were A-frame logged during WW1, that have been logged again, nice wood. But yes, some of it should be left alone forever.
rkewen
6 years ago
Climber, I worked on the Charlottes or as I prefer to say today, Haida Gwaii back in the early seventies, worked for Rayonier at Sewell Inlet, MacBlo QC Div, Fix Log out of Alliford bay and lots of engineering work, especially on Louise before Onion Lake built the camp at Beatty Anchorage. In fact, helped lay out the camp, log dump and prelimary five year cutting plan for Louise Island. We were (layout) contracting to MacBlo who as far as I know were contracting the logging to Beban. I've never been back since before the logging started on Louise. Was rooting for the huggers down by Burnaby Narrows and Lyell Island later on, from afar, here in the Kootenays.
After trying to avoid forest devastation for awhile, I got too many offers I couldn't continue to refuse and went back to the woods for a few more years. I must admit I always loved the work, hard as it was, working the rigging kept my body and mind in shape, as long as I stayed quick. When I fired up the caulk boots again here in the Koots it was pretty much the same except generally steeper ground, shitty or non-existent landings, smaller wood (though pockets of surprising Doug Fir, Larch and Eng Spruce did come around on the guitar) and smaller machinery. Same old rush though. I'm too old anymore, even if there was much of that kind of work left. And they just don't treat the loggers as good as they did in my "old days." Sorry from the snarks, now the next thing I might be finding out is that I knew your folks, if you grew up on Haida Gwaii.
climber
6 years ago
R, I moved here a year ago, wish I had grown up here. I live in Port, Juskatla now is just an office, shops and a parking lot for the most part. I was looking around there yesterday, kind of sad to see all the remains of what it once was. Telephone poles with the wires and streetlights still on them, inside a alder forest. The camp at Sewell closed two years ago. The easy old wood has been logged here for the most part, now few landings, grapple yarder on the road, log loader on the road, some steep stuff. The ownership of the islands is up in the air, many different dreams and desires, the glory days of the big camps and full bars are gone, can't predict the future. The t.f.l.s here are huge, as you know, in comparison to the size of the place, I think that was a huge mistake to make them so big. Probably even to award them at all.
Gerhardius
6 years ago
rkewen,
my eldest brother was at Sewell Inlet and other places on the coast in that era. He ended up in Zeballos. Dad started working in the bush just before WW2 and returned after the war. Most of my family grew up in camps on the coast until Dad moved to head office in the early 1960's. All of my brothers spent time logging at one stage or another, and the eldest has been at it for over 40 years.
rkewen
6 years ago
I was working out of the hotel at Zeballos when they paved main street for the first time. I was working out Esperanza Inlet, not paving the road. But when I got there main street was gravel and the float plane pilot opened the door letting me onto the dock saying "welcome to Dodge." A couple weeks or a month later when I flew out, the main drag was asphalt! The end of an era. What an out of the way place to drive to, at least then, prolly still!
ursus
6 years ago
This deal is only good for six years eh, well in six years there won't be much wood left in the interior as the pine beetle and the feller bunchers are winning that war.
Anyone who doubts need only do like I have done and go check it out for themselves. If we lose the boreal forest we will also lose the water table.
Frank
6 years ago
My holiday was great G, I highly recommend the Tree Frog Bistro on Texada Island for great salmon and burgers.
Mine and my daughter's giant sandcastle at Shelter Point Park was destroyed by the waves, who'd a thunk it :)
G West
6 years ago
Glad it was good. I've a friend with a cabin on Texada (or is it Thormanby Island?)who keeps threatening to have us over - so far he's never come through. Bit of a big wig lawyer in Vancouver now - I'm not sure we'd have that much in common anymore. Thx for the message. I'll await your further response. btw. check out the travel feature on Libya on the NYTimes website. Who'da thunk a 'terrorist' state like that would ever get back into the 'family' of nations without bombing it back into the 15th century first?
murdock
6 years ago
from rkewen
which is why in the Pat Bagley, Clueless George series, he (Cheney) is THE MAN
rkewen
6 years ago
I'm not familiar with the reference - Clueless George? TeeVee, comic, movie skits somewhere.
rkewen
6 years ago
On tonight's repeat show (originally aired on that black day Stephen was sworn in as Prime Minister of Canada)Rick gave his trademark hitting the TV screen with the pointer lesson on "Everything You Wanted to Know about Softwood Lumber, but were Afraid to Ask,"
timely or what.
His ending said that Canada and the US would next meet in court, that further negotiation was out of the question with a 5X loser like the US. I guess even Rick couldn't have imagined how fast the bending over and.................would begin. Did I say negotiation, more like capitulation. Steve and George, kinda like Monica and Bill, except Steve likes group action so all Canadians can get screwed at the same time as him.
hannibal
6 years ago
How stupid are neo-con/Nazi supporter's.
They actually believe this goof can win a majority governemnt in Canada while his buddy chimpy is at around 30% in the polls.
Yea, Mercer is too funny except when he had Rona'Bunny' Ambrose on and he was obsequious in the extreme . Didn't like that episode as he didn't twit her enough .
I see the goon is gonna be on Corner Gas .
That's it for that show in my house .
Brent Butt can kiss my rosy red rectum .
IAMC
6 years ago
Gee, I would hate to be Brent Butt around hannibal.
After all the stuff that's happened in Canadian politics since Stephen Harper was elected as PM, the CPC Party is hanging in there at the same support they had on election night.
Nobody that originally supported is bailing out. The support is SOLID.
Now you may say that 38% support will never get you a majority Govt.
I see the left very split, between the various Liberal leadership candidates, the Bloc, NDP, Green Party with May.
It;s a divided left and a united right.
I'm happy, Hannibal is cranky.
rkewen
6 years ago
IAMClueless
I'd imagine you are, after all it doesn't take much to satisfy two or three lonely brain cells. There is a certain type of person who is easy to please by keeping it very simple and repeating it many, many times. You know who's keeping it simple and doing the repetition and who is doing the listening and being lulled into a false
but effective stupor.
If Harper ever wins his coveted majority, I hope for your sake you are his kind of people. Myself, I'll be looking into immigrating to somewhere somewhat more enlightened like maybe Burma (or whatever they call it this week).
yooper
6 years ago
How did Canadians ever elect this wanker Harper anyway? Has no one paid attention to what his soul mate Incurious George has done to the US of A?
Canada is in for a rough ride.
DPL
6 years ago
Forest industry earnings jump
Wednesday, August 30, 2006
VANCOUVER -- Canada's forest and paper industry posted earnings of $453 million in the second-quarter this year, up from a year-ago loss, as western Canadian companies led the sharp rise, according to a PricewaterhouseCoopers survey.
But the professional services firm expected the upward trend to be short-lived, as a stronger Canadian dollar, combined with a slowdown in the
U.S. housing market, continue to hammer Western Canadian wood producers.
The western Canadian industry recorded earnings totalling $262 million during the three months ended June 30 -- an increase of nearly seven times the $40 million earned in the same period last year, PricewaterhouseCooper's Global Forest and Paper Industry survey said.
West Fraser Timber Co. Ltd. led the pack with a second-quarter profit of $104 million, up from $38 million last year.
----------
A major component of those results, however, were gains from foreign-denominated debt, which skewed the underlying picture of the industry, said Craig Campbell, a PricewaterhouseCoopers partner in global forest and paper practice based in Vancouver.
Companies were required to pay back less of their U.S. dollar borrowings as a result of the higher loonie. But at the same time, the higher exchange rate hurt sales.
The boost from foreign denominated debt is expected to be offset by a number of other factors that will negatively affect results in coming months, Campbell said.
"The outlook for the remainder of the year doesn't look good," he said.
-------------
One wonders if much cash, or privileges, changed hands between the companies and the floor crosser who cooked up the deal? Less workers increase profits and thats the bottom line. The wood is supposedly ours but I guess not.So if some of the bucks end up under control of the Republicans, hey that's how some folks do business
hannibal
6 years ago
Reality check for the Cluless one.
Collectively, the Liberals, NDP and Greens won more than half the votes in last January's election. The Conservatives won their minority with just 36 per cent of the vote.
And this time with more than 50% of the NDP unhappy with Harpo and the'Gang that couldn't shoot straight'they will vote strategically as they realize it is their fault we got saddled with the 'Insane Clown Posse'
hannibal
6 years ago
Oh,yea and the Greens will split off neo-con votes quite handily as 36% of neo-cons said that their second choice was the Greens .
I ain't cranky just waiting for the opposition to collapse the idiot's government(?)
rkewen
6 years ago
'Insane Clown Posse'love it
An article in the Toronto Star from August 27 kinda sums up the whole horrifying package that is HarpSeal's vision for a more American Canada in:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1156592170979&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621513
The Americanization of Canada by Harper
Prime Minister walking in lockstep with Bush, says Haroon Siddiqui
some teasers:
A recent editorial in The New York Times said: "Washington helps Israel best when it supplements, and where necessary restrains, Israeli actions, not when it acts as a mindless echo chamber. America abdicated leadership in this crisis."
So did Harper, by blindly following Bush on a failed mission that even a majority of Israelis are questioning furiously.
I so much hope that soon this Northern Poodle the Artic Doughboy will be no more than a vaguely unpleasant memory, and we can shiver momentarily at the thought of where Canada may have gone had not wiser minds prevailed.
rkewen
6 years ago
For a slightly snarky view of the SoftWood SellOut and Slush Bunny Fund from an American who avoids the kool-aid pitcher check out:
http://www.correntewire.com/450_million_slush_fund_for_bush_from_canadian_lumber_deal_just_in_time_for_the_mid_terms
This is all lovingly documented by lambert who cheerfully admits that:
This is a good companion piece providing background on the SWTA itself and the strategic importance of the deal to Rove's November 2006 dreams -
att:STEPHEN HARPER,
-PLEASE MOVE TO AMERICA -
THAT'S THE IDEAL PLACE TO BE AMERICAN!!!!
hannibal
6 years ago
att:STEPHEN HARPER,
-PLEASE MOVE TO AMERICA -
THAT'S THE IDEAL PLACE TO BE AMERICAN!!!!
Once again Rkewen you made be laugh right in the midddles of a drink of coffee.
Now I gotta clean the damn keyboard .
Thanks
A good sense of humour is essential to be a Canadian . I mean we have so much to laugh about and at .
Not the least of which is our alleged government(?)
Frank
6 years ago
Bull, it rebuilds the US lumber producer war chest and means that we have to go through this whole legal rigamarole all over again in a few years starting from zero.
Stuart
6 years ago
Don't forget the 4 billion that comes back to our producers is taxable, so take off 35% for Herr Harpers war chest
Plus we actually agreed to start taxing our own exports (except raw logs) to make our own companies less competitive. Man what a joke, I know some of us enjoy being US bootlicks but some of us still have pride in being Canadian, we must make Harper pay a price for this,
For for all you yahoo wannabies, conservative pro US bootlicks a reality check
The last election had the governing party( Liberals) at an all time low, mixed up in corruption and actually
had an RCMP investigation break out in the middle of the campaign and what happened.
Canadians elected only 124 Conservatives and 184 seats went to other parties, in the best case scenario the right can only take a slim minority . So don't get you hopes up,
Better to die on your feet then live on your knees.
Stuart
6 years ago
As a side bar, While in Toronto last week I noticed posters all over town promoting books on tape.
It had a huge pic of Bush with a goofy grin titled "Don't read enough" Try books on tape.
Jack's
6 years ago
I believe the Americans can opt out after only 1 1/2 years
hannibal
6 years ago
Yup,only 1 in 4 Canadians votd for the all idiot party .
murdock
6 years ago
for rkewen (and anyone else) ; worth a giggle:
http://cluelessgeorgegoestowar.com/html/clueless_page1.html
hannibal
6 years ago
Six months the way I read it Jacks .
Jack's
6 years ago
Chicken wrote...
We are cowering because the Americans covered their asses when negotiating NAFTA. Mulroney simply signed the agreement and Harper's following in his footsteps.
hannibal
6 years ago
Yea, right over the cliff into oblivion .
O'Reilly
6 years ago
What a disgusting and outrageous double deal by those gangsters and thugs that call themselves the U.S. government and their lackeys in Ottawa.
verso
6 years ago
Maybe this is why Campbell came around to supporting the agreement?
hannibal
6 years ago
Verso.Nah,the funding was already in place put there by the Liberal's .
Clamhole just decided he had to swing for the fences as a result of his waning popularity in BC and he felt he could influence the industry by aceeding to the morons deal .
It ain't been ratified yet and I'm willing to bet it won't pass the smell test in Paliament in the fall .
Buh,bye Harpo you creep !
IAMC
6 years ago
Well if the CPC still has 38% support in the public eye, I am happy.
You have to look at the fact that the remaining 62&. Can this band of BLOC, NDP, GREEN. LIBERAL manage to muster even 50% of these groups to vote for one Party, they still will not be able to Wrestle power away from my hero, Stephen Harper.
You have to be awfully naive to think that this will happen. Show me the money. Show me how any of these hapless organisations are going to pull this off.
Our PM has a very credible man. Even lefties I know, don't discount him.
What is the game plan of the left?
I bet they don't have one.
Alcibiades
6 years ago
Read the story Ron - still proud of your hero the sellout?
fanshaw
6 years ago
What is the game plan of the left?
For the good of the country, snipers if necessary.
IAMC
6 years ago
Yeah fan, that's about all you have left is violence. Logic has passed you by loser.
Alcibiades
6 years ago
Logic Ron, I'm surprised you can spell it right. There was a lot of discussion about folks like you around here today Ron. You didn't come across that well, btw.
Alcibiades
6 years ago
I hope the editors are watching. Remember Ron, the Tyee has rules about calling people names.
IAMC
6 years ago
Alc: I will never be toasted by The Tyee. I don't have evil in my heart. I speak plainly.
I am egalitarian. I hope that society can provide opportunities, not a bale out to those that are underachievers, when they shouldn't have been.
We don't need all to be firing on all cylinders, but we need someone to be the light at the end of the tunnel.
Alcibiades
6 years ago
Calling people names like 'loser' is a violation of the agreement you signed when you asked to post on this site. I have a feeling the editors are going to start doing a bit more editing around here and you'd be a good one to start with.
IAMC
6 years ago
Alcibides;
I don't care if you have enough influence to get me toasted from this site.
I have enough of a life, that I cannot be compared to G West or The Mangy Dog. I simply don't care about your opinion of me.
I do care about your views, however.
Alcibiades
6 years ago
No you don't Ron. I don't want to see you 'toasted' whatever that means. I just want you to be on notice. I know you could care less - that's what people like you always say and you are very common in that sense.
IAMC
6 years ago
Toasted mean toasted Alchi.
I don give you an inch.
rkewen
6 years ago
IAMClueless:
I guess not Clueless, giving Alchi an inch would leave you what? About 1/2 inch maybe? (assuming of course that don=don't - in Ron's world, who knows!
As you were advised above, read the article instead of just the comments and then trying (unsuccessfully) to expose their logical flaws. You can't use logic as a tool if you don't know what it is.
If you can read, and comprehend the presentation given to the Standing Committee by Mr. Feldman and still adore your hero the Great Northern Poodle, then you are a Republican too, not a Canadian!
The GOP is not a Canadian Party Ron! And our Prime Minister and his co-hort the polictical slut David Emerson shouldn't be the leading fundraisers for the Republican Party heading into the 2006 midterms. They should be doing something that actually helps, say....Canada! What a thought, oh yeah, I'm talking to your Ron, thought might be a hard word for you to grasp.
hannibal
6 years ago
What poll gives the neo-Nazi's 38% Ronny ?
Not any poll that I have read .
Even their very own in house polling firm SES has them dead even nation wide with the Liberal's.
The Liberal's are up several points in Ontario .
They lost all the gains they made in Quebec where Harpo imagines his majority lay .
That dream is shattered and lying in tatters at the neo-cons feet .
Nope we'll do quite nicely during the next election as the neo's will lose bewteen 50 and sixty seats nation wide .
Mark my words Clueless .
hannibal
6 years ago
Thanks for pointing that out to the Clueless one sometimes he forgets he is in Canada and not the Excited States of America .
Yea, the moron is really clever to tie his wagon to someone who is sinking like a stone in the polls. I am impressed .
fanshaw
6 years ago
Sticks and stones IAMC, sticks and stones. Call me all the names you want. It says much more about you than I.
Assasination is a valid political tool under the right circumstaces. Just ask the Americans. We may differ about what those circumstances are, however. If it is to prevent Steve and Co. from ruining a great country by trying to emulate a failed country like the US, I say pull the trigger.
hannibal
6 years ago
Totally agree.
hannibal
6 years ago
Brainless Emerson musing out loud about why the Liberal's hate this capitulation from the master of sleaze with regards the SLA .
Sheesh! Could be the deal(?) stinks to high heaven you goof .
G West
6 years ago
hannibal - I know you had to be tough to get those elephants over the Alps but assassination creates martyrs. Really really bad idea...same advice to fanshaw. I understand the motivation but the reaction is all wrong and would only help perpetuate what you're trying to eliminate. My view. And makes you look worse than them into the bargain. You, and I, have to find ways to convince people – not scare them off.
The brain
6 years ago
We don't need all to be firing on all cylinders, but we need someone to be the light at the end of the tunnel. - IMAC
So what are underachievers exactly, in your view? Someone on welfare or someone who is sick, a single mom perhaps... is that your view?
And we don't need to be functioning properly... but we need, say, Harper to be that light at the end of the tunnel... is that your view?
You should seriously read the story just "one more time". Well, even the first time should be enough. There is no time in history that both the U.S. and Canadian governments have been this corrupt and at the same time, inept. Is it running "rough enough" for you?
hannibal
6 years ago
High G.West:
I agree completely . I was hopng Fanshaw was speaking metaphorically not literally .
I should have been more specific in my support and read more closely what was being said .
Murder in any form is still murder and not something I am comfortable with .
hannibal
6 years ago
Westy :
What I do think is that Fanshaws post does speak eloquently to the level of frustration that exists for any clear thinking Canadian .
Still I do not agree with the 'sniper's on roof tops scenario '
I hope that Gilles Duceppe sees the light(not at the end of a tunnel)and will help crush these neo-con fanatics .
IAMC
6 years ago
So Hannibal thinks it's okay to kill Stephen Harper. I am not surprised because it knows that the only way to prevent him from being our greatest PM ever, is to kill him.
I hope Hannibal turns red and has a heat flush as it reads this.
To the brainless, I think underachievers are those that are lazy, not disabled or in circumstances beyond any one's control.
There a plenty of people that need legitimate help. I just don't think all of the poor need to be poor. Do you?
DPL
6 years ago
The floor crosser Emerson is in a article this evening. You heard it right from the wheeler dealer himself.
--
Emerson lashes opposition parties as anti-American
Steve Mertl, Canadian Press
Published: Thursday, August 31, 2006
VANCOUVER -- International Trade Minister David Emerson is attacking opposition threats to vote against softwood lumber legislation, saying it reflects the parties’ basic anti-Americanism.
hannibal
6 years ago
Biggest loser ever don't you mean Clueless/Ronny ?
This goof is gonna be a footnote in Canadian political history .
Time remaing for neo-cons approx. 90 days .
hannibal
6 years ago
DPL please provide a link to the story or point us in the right direction .
Clueless you are truly stupid .
You didn't read my mea culpa .
hannibal
6 years ago
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060831/softwood_liberals_060831/20060831?hub=Politics
Yu[,the brain dead goof actually said the opposition is anti-American .
Well there's an epiphany .
No kidding moron .
The brain
6 years ago
Brainless... since it came from you, I'm certain that my precious feelings will be just fine.
What you think in terms of categorizing underachievers as being lazy, is at the very best, a half truth. There are plenty of "underachievers" that work hard and still don't "progress". The main reason behind it isn't laziness, as you put it, but fear... fear of failure, fear of success.
Look around you. Most of us could do much more with our lives with what we are given. Look at the health of Canadians overall to sight one of many obvious examples of underachieving and tell me that Canadians are "achievers". The majority of us are underachieving on health alone.
Achievements aren't based solely on a persons job, bank account or position in life. If thats all you base achievements on, then, well, its perfectly understandable now why you would see Harper and Bush as "the greatest leaders ever". Be prepared, however, for others to see "your views" on what it takes to lead and achieve as rather "shallow".
Tell me, I'm curious, what makes anyone think that a warhawk leader of a nation who gives away 450 million plus interest from its own industry to a warhawk leader and political party is one to be considered as "the best PM ever"?
If the Libs did the same thing for the democrats, would you consider it just as wise? Would you call it what it truly is? Or would you just be another immoral hypcrite with double standards...
IAMC
6 years ago
The 450 million we gave the Us is cheap. Give your head a shake. We have a subsidized industry. We should expect to pay some taxes.
Wow, we are getting back 4.5 BILLION dollars, that we shouldn't even be getting back.
This deal is hard to believe, it's so good.
Alcibiades
6 years ago
Troll away little troll. You like that hand in your pocket kind of deal don't you?
IAMC
6 years ago
Alci; why aren't you excited about Canada winning this hardwood dispute?
After all we almost broke even on this argument created far before this Administration.
When both parties feel a bit disappointed in a deal made, it's probably an honest deal.
We go way beyond that. We actually beat the Americans this time.
G West
6 years ago
Like ALci says you love that yankee hand in your pocket. If we beat the Americans why are we giving them our money?
Tommy Douglas had a saying about our realtionship with the US. He said, (and it's as true today as it ever was - and especially germane under pee wee's surrender monkey leadership):
"It is bad enough to be hewers of wood and drawers of water, but it is even worse when someone else decides how much wood you will hew and how much water you will be allowed to carry."
That pretty much sums up this 'victory' Ron. I'm embarrassed and so should every Canadian with a funtioning spine be too.
G West
6 years ago
should be 'functioning' - sorry!
Frank
6 years ago
Ron, we're paying the Americans a billion dollars to take our wood. American companies in Canada will recieve money back that they shouldn't have had to pay in the first place.
This deal and the entire industry is so screwed up its hard to know where to begin.
If Radisson and Grosillier were here and saw us paying the US to take our wood and in addition taking our raw logs they'd tell us that in over 300 years we're still the same colony we've always been. Might as well be beaver pelts.
gkam
6 years ago
Hey, people, you're not giving the money to us, you're giving it to our fascists, for them to buy what's left of our US government.
But that's okay, . . maybe Dubya will make Capitalism or IAMC Governor of the Canadian Protectorate. You can have your own secret prisons, Swiss banking accounts, and personal army, just like our other whores.
hannibal
6 years ago
Yea,this is one hell of a deal .
Now I hear a neo-Nazi spin artist say that 157,to ,3 companies in Quebec supprt this deal.
That is a virtual impossibility as they were intractable in the beginning .
All the threats and arm twisting by Harpo and Emerson has not made them any friends .
Seen a Quebec poll lately Ronny .
The Liberal's are ahead of the brown shirts
and the Bloc is back to theri traditional numbers .
Nope the goof isa gonna have to look elsewhere to ,ever,get a majority in Canada .
Leaderlesss and rudderless the Liberal's are still polling almost even with the Nazi's .
The brain
6 years ago
You've said it best, gkam:
The Republicans are on their way out, with the Dem's on their way in. There is no way in hell that a 450 million dollar Republican slush fund givaway is going to improve relations between our nations in the years to come, unless there is another party in power in Canada besides the corrupt and inept Cons.
Hannibal:
The Libs might be leaderless and rudderless, but their nuts are dropping. They won't support this one in parliment. The Libs have two good candidates to be the next PM in my opinion. Ken Dryden and Stephane Dion. Both men are honest, environmental, and, we are finding, have the main ingredient needed to lead this country. They are quite simply, Canadian. I know you're an NDP'er and I'll be one too, if the Libs don't don't have the forsight to find either one of these men as the next PM.
hannibal
6 years ago
Brain:
Actually Brain I am a life long Liberal supporter .
I agree with your assessment but I think Bob Rae would also make a swell PM .
He has a ton of experience in being a negotiator .
It wasn't his fault he took over in Ontario at the worst possible time-deep recesssion-taking over form a Conservative gov.
I believe that Dion will win on the second ballot .
Frank
6 years ago
hannibal, he took over from a Liberal gov't under David Petersen. However, you're right, it was the worst possible time. Right after free trade was signed and it was the Ontario manufacturing sector that immediately took it on the chin.
Frank
6 years ago
It'll take 4 ballots to squeeze out Ignatieff (wishful thinking on my part?)
rkewen
6 years ago
IAMClueless states:
So now the Clueless wonder is dissing and thorougly insulting every previous Prime Minister in Canada's history, eh? I can't say that I'm surprised.
When Harper is sent back to Podunk Alberta (or to his dream haven the Excited Snakes, maybe Jeb's state) Parliament will probably feel it necessary to pass an extrodinary motion erasing all mention of the fact that this cretin ever pretended to be Prime Minister of Canada. Either that or the previous holders of that position will rise up from the grave en masse to plead to have their name erased from the list so they can start counting the other way i.e.
Prime Ministers of Canada:
Stephen Harper # -1
say maybe then
Peter Mckay # -2
I keep getting the pictures of Robert Picton climbing over the stall and Peter Mckay crying in the meadow confused in my brain, I guess it's the gum boots. Photoshop is calling, gotta go!
and so on!
rkewen
6 years ago
Hope nobody missed the fact that the other day King Ralph admitted what everybody with a brain kinda knew all along, that they didn't have a clue how to deal with managing Alberta's finances. Why do I think of a drunken lottery winner who winds up broke at some airport after a two year binge?
If they don't find anyone with a brain to run Alberta, the hangover will be a hell of a lot longer than the high!
C.A.P.
6 years ago
It all comes back to Brian or Brain Mulroney playful backup of Stephen Harper with a lot of bush in the middle
FREEof USA
6 years ago
DEAL WITH USA
Never in all the deals Canada has ever made with the USA has it been good for Canada.Whoever made this deal should be fired and investigated for bribery. ALL the money that the US has from the softwood lumber is CANADIAN money.AND we must get ride of the lapdog for fascist BUSHCO,our dickhead prime minister HARPER,he'll screw canadians in favour of the USA again and again. Obviously with his agreement to kill as many non-israelis as fast as possible he's part of the HUGE killing machine of the BUSHCO/ISRAELI FACSIST REGIME plan.HARPER agrees with war criminals,traitors and theives the BUSH administration and would lead CANADA into closer relations with a SUPER corrupt illegal BUSHCO FACSIST dictatorship....ANYONE that wants to align with a fascist government is
agreeing with it and gets this karma also.
hannibal
6 years ago
Thanks Frank .I had forgotten it was Peterson that Rae followed .
The assessment is right on the money as Rae had to manage an enormous deficit some 5,billion,I think and he had no choice but to severely cut services .
Making him ,very,unpopular in Ontario ut Ontarians apear to have forgiven him .
Rkewen your at it again making my day with a good laugh to start out on .
Brain Baloney was even telling the goof Harpo how to dress in the last Fed election.
Imagine that ?
hannibal
6 years ago
Sidebar for the election.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1157147419010&call_page=TS_EditorialOpinion&call_pageid=968256290204&call_pagepath=Editorial/Opinion&pubid=968163964505
hannibal
6 years ago
The Harper government sees this agreement as a win despite the fact that it clearly breaks a Conservative election promise. Closing a deal (whatever the price) will give the Conservatives bragging rights — that unlike the previous Liberal government only they have the respect and the clout to reach agreements with Washington. It will allow the government to put this dispute to rest — at least for a while — and get on with its deep integration agenda of tying Canada ever more closely with Fortress America.
I have long believed the NAFTA dispute settlement mechanisms were ineffective. This settlement sounds the final death knell for NAFTA dispute settlement, and with it any pretence that rules have replaced power politics. Why would any Canadian company ever cast its lot again with the NAFTA Chapter 19 or Chapter 11 processes?
More importantly in my view, Canada forfeited its rights under NAFTA Article 1905 to withdraw concessions bargained under NAFTA. It could, for example, have withdrawn its obligation to give the U.S. proprietary access to the majority of our oil and gas. Though unlikely under the Harper government, such action would clearly cause Washington policy-makers to sit up and take notice.
Furthermore, this represents a further loss of Canadian policy freedom. Though B.C. and other provinces have been harmonizing their policies to comply with U.S. demands, this agreement goes farther. It gives the U.S. Administration an effective veto over policy changes and imposes detailed reporting requirements on provincial and federal governments. It will also encourage the export of raw logs and investment in wood-processing facilities south of the border — a setback for policies aimed at enhancing domestic value-added production.
Finally, it can only exacerbate inter-provincial tensions. The complex options in the agreement which involve different blends of export taxes and quotas, combined with the onerous enforcement rules is a recipe for heightened conflict — between regions and between companies.
Whether or not Parliament passes the softwood lumber agreement this fall, it will be for reasons having little to do with the substance of the deal itself. It is a bad deal, and one that contravenes the Conservative election pledge to “stand up for Canada.â€
rkewen
6 years ago
Hey hannibal, I figure if you can't find a little bit of humor in our (BC's, North America's and the Planet's) situation, it is just too darn depressing. A laugh or two helps postpone the slitting of one's own throat!
rkewen
6 years ago
Ken Dryden stood up (in net) for Canada in 1972, I say we can't lose much by giving him another chance to stand up again. He even understands the law - an added bonus!
It would be so thrilling to see someone actually worthy of respect (Cornell, Harvard, Stanley Cups, Nader's Raider's, articulate prose etc.) make Harper and his trained seals regret the day they ever thought of that "motto." With these guys it's more like "lay down for George and Dick."
The brain
6 years ago
Hannibal:
The big beef I've got with Bob Rae is his two directorships. To me, any politician with directorships is a major red flag. What I don't know, on the other hand, is where he got them from, but in either case, it looks bad from where I'm looking.
Saw the lib rally on TV sat a week and a half ago to hear the Lib hopefuls speak up. Clearly, in my view, its Dryden or Dion. Both men showed something to me that the others did not. Pure raw emotion. Dion was sentimental with a love for his country... but Dryden... Ken was just plain pissed when it came right down to it.
The ideology between the Libs and Cons is so night and day. The Cons see things like multiculturalism and bilingualism and crown corps and unions as unnecessary and a waste of money. The Libs see equality and human rights as completely necessary and well worth the dough. What a contrast. One is for one's self. The "individual" if you will (which of course, the most powerful ones get the most booty, mainly the "individual" U.S. corps "property rights" being most protected). The other see's "the whole". Its prevalent in everything that both parties do and cater to.
And to top it all off, families have a history of voting for the same parties for generations. Its all ideological, and both are at risk to greed from the seats of power, its just how it is, but people like Harper had an agenda long before they assumed power. When the will is corrupt, the goal is crooked, and the plan is destructive, expect nothing short of failure.
Frank
6 years ago
hannibal, agree completely. NAFTA should be tossed and this deal makes one wonder why the gov't even bothered with 4 years of heavy legal fees.
hannibal
6 years ago
ROTFLMAO again .
Sheesh! The penny,finally, dropped I figured out where Pee Wee(Harpo) and Petey got those snazzy vests they wore in Afghanistan .
Possum Lodge ! courtesy of Red Green .
Yes, Frank it,really,does make one wonder what the hell our politicians are using for grey matter .
Brain I agree with you .
But let us not forget that Harpo was the head of the NCC for several years and he counts amongst his friends the racist's Tom Flanagan and Ted Morton who just tried a private members bill,in Alberta, to once again criminalize same sex marriage .
Ken Dryden is a hell of a man and a true red and white Canadian .
He is also a good novelist with more than enough brain power to make Harpo look the fool that he is .
Ken was incensed when the Nazi's axed his child care program. Rightfullly so .
I,really,like Ken .
Not sure how the rest of the party feels though .
Paul in East Van
6 years ago
Once Canadians understand how this softwood deal clearly favours the U.S., they may start asking why Can West was so supportive of Emerson's quick flip to the Conservatives. At the time, they quoted all of the corporate-backed politicians like Gordon Campbell and Sam Sullivan saying how amazing it was to have Emerson back in a government post, that his experience and expertise will only be for the good of Canadians and the future of Canada. And this softwood deal is what we got!! How pathetic. I think it's time for Emerson to retire. He's clearly not very good at negotiating in Canada's best interests.
hannibal
6 years ago
Can West Goebbels is simply a propaganda arm of the neo-Nazi government(?)
Little surprise they were cheering the moron .
And this idiot used to be CEO of Canfor .
It is always interesting to watch Goebbels and then watch the same story on the CBC to recognize how out of control Can West is .
It is too bad the CRTC doesn't demand truth from the purveyots of the news .
Frank
6 years ago
When we have daily papers in this province that don't support the Liberal party financially and editorially I'll buy them again.
The brain
6 years ago
3 more dead Canadian soldiers this morning. Sure sucks how the media is trying to justify it.
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/09/03/afghanistan-taliban.html
Makes its sound like, "sure, we lost 3 Canadians (and had another six shot up some) but we got scores of Taliban for our sacrifices!!!"
We read a little farther to see small mention of dead civilians, the unfortunate that are at the wrong place, at the wrong time... like those living in Lebanon persay. And all of this to get the chess pieces in position to assist Bush's up coming invasion in Iran.
Hannibal:
Friggin NCC... yeesh! Its early in the morning for me right now... later, bro
:-)
hannibal
6 years ago
Sunday's casualties increase the total to 12 the number of Canadian soldiers who have died since Aug. 3.
Now the number is 4,as of today.
What a tragic waste of human life .
rkewen
6 years ago
F******K Harper!!!
sorry, I just had to get it out!
rkewen
6 years ago
Sorry for the outburst, but I can't scream at the screen as someone is sleeping that is ill nearby. My loathing of Harper approaches that I have for Bu$h and Cheney, and may soon surpass him, because he is SUPPOSED to be Canadian. I want to see him and Dryden discuss "Standing up for Canada." What a joke, if in his sleep it crosses (the thought of debating Ken Dryden) that bundle of ganglia that passes for a brain in Harper's head without an attached heart, I'll bet he wakes up in a cold sweat, and looks in the Yellow Pages under "Hitmen."
C.A.P.
6 years ago
When The Canadian peacekeepers remove all the Taliban will the Bush admin instruct us to round up all the pregnant Taliban women
The brain
6 years ago
C.A.P. lol. Its in their playbook!
Yah... 4 dead from an offensive we initiated. We, under Harper, directly put our Canadian sons and daughters into harms way for nothing. Islamic Jihad is no localized movement. Its spreading across a ton of poor and developing nations. This so called "victory" claim with what is called high body counts means nothing. These so called "efforts" are so wasted, its already so over before it began. "What a waste" could not summarize this foolish loss of life, nor epitomize the clearly inept leadership in our Canadian and U.S. governments more clearly.
hannibal
6 years ago
Rkwen and Brain :
My hatred of all things neo-Nazi borders on the pathological .
I despise these morons with a vengeance .
Phuque Harper indeed .
Can't wait for the fall when his rule will collapse in ignominious defeat .
Best PM ever . Not even a real PM as far as I am concerned .
A pretender to the throne without an ounce of compassion in his whole stupid body .
I see the suck holing to Quebec continues with his attendance at the Bloc Quebecois members funeral .
Anything for a photo op in Quebec .
I hope Duceppe meant what he said about the honeymoon being over .
hannibal
6 years ago
"And if building the fortunes of the Conservative party in the province of Quebec was viewed by many Conservatives as the gateway to a majority, then the latest pulse of voters in Quebec will be sobering indeed," said the polling company.
The poll shows that the Conservatives have dropped from a "post-election honeymoon high" in Quebec of 34% in February to 22%. Conversely, the Bloc appears "resilient," with 43% of the vote in the province.
Ipsos Reid noted the Conservatives' decline in Quebec occurred as the political agenda was dominated by foreign policy issues such as Canada's troop deployment to Afghanistan and the Harper government's strong support for Israel in the Middle East conflict. Both of these policies are unpopular in Quebec.
rkewen
6 years ago
In spite of the roll over and let 'em do it again attitude of people like Capitalism (perhaps more appropriately
Cap(italism) in Hand), Canadians should be concerned about those who supposedly represent Canadian interests being so subservient to the wishes of any foreign power, even one less malignant than the Bu$h Crime Family to our south. In the view of Capitlism it is up to the victim to get along with the rapist by being more co-operative. Sheeeeeeeesh
I know that most forest product company CEOs are most likely conservative in their views and if American, would very likely vote Republican. However, even these corporate piggies at the trough must feel somewhat offended that Harpo and the evil Emerson can just donate 1/2 billion of THEIR money to Karl Rove's polictical machine and the ill conceived dreams of world domination, of the Bu$h Crime Family.
The Canadian Parliament should be totally offended that this pretend Prime Minister would expect them to rubber stamp this egregious example of ILLEGAL campaign donations to a foreign power, that is far from concerned with Canada's own real interests.
Apparently the Libs and NDP in the house plan to vote against this scam. Amazingly though, word on the hill is that Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc will support this affront to all that is fair and just. Do Quebec nationalists really want to be such a large part of the Republican's hopes to retain control of Congress in the US? We know Quebeckers in general aren't too impressed with the Harp's aping of the Bush Doctrine instead of forging a real Canadian foreign policy - so how can they support this travesty - or is the problem that nobody is aware of what is actually going on.
I was pleased to hear Elliot Feldman interviewed on As It Happens last night, but other than that, this is totally under the radar except at the Tyee, my own website and the odd other place. The MSM and the members of Parliament need to be shamed into being accountable and actually stand up and say "I SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" or else don't give them 1/2 BILLION DOLLARS.
I am going to be calling and writing Alex Atamanenko, as well as Gilles Duceppe and some other key members. It is definitely time to call out those members of Parliament that are only Republicans in disguise.
The Libs playing fast and loose with ad agencies in Montreal pales next to Harper and Emersons blatant donation to keeping George Dubya "Yeah I'm a Felon, so what?" Bush from the impeachment he so richly deserves.
hannibal
6 years ago
Rkewen:
Gilles email
I keep hammering away at him asking hime if would like to be the most hated man in Canada for propping up the neo-Nazi's .
Heard the latest about Bunny Ambrose' so called Green Plan .
Now they are saying it will take 5,years to implement .
Christ! these goofs will be lucky to be around in 5,months never mind 5,years .
And their so=called ethics/accountabilty act.What a joke !
They give a half billion dollars to the Republicans to get re-elected. Yea, that's ethical. To the Mafia .
rkewen
6 years ago
Thanx Hannibal, I already fired off a letter to Gilles which included a copy of my email to Alex Atamanenko, my own MP.
Some excerpts from my message to Gilles:
Aside from the fact that the deal is a give away and
total surrender to American bullying and betrayal of
the spirit of "Free Trade," this is also a disguised
campaign donation of 1/2 BILLION dollars to the
Republican's war chest for this fall's Congressional
elections.
It is my understanding that Quebeckers have less
support for the Bush Doctrine of foreign policy than
even other parts of Canada, so why you and the Bloc
would support such Republicans in CPofC clothing as
those frauds Harper and Emerson completely eludes me.
If you stick too close to slime (like the Harp and the
evil Mr. E) it can rub off on you, you know, and your
own constituents may run away from you.
By the way, Gilles, at the last debates you came
across more like a Prime Minister than any of the
other guys. You could be Prime Minister someday if you
were leader of a party that actually believed in
say... Canada!
Please reconsider your position vis-a-vis the SoftWood
Scandalous Scam RipOff Betrayal of Canada!
Heck, I just included the whole message to Gilles, minus the message to Alex. This is the issue that could make the Liberals mucking about with ad agencies in Montreal seem like "Much Ado About Nothing." Which it always was compared to really serious corruption like say the Mulroney government or BC Rail etc.
hannibal
6 years ago
Harper has yet to implement one concrete solution to resolve the so-called "fiscal imbalance" between Ottawa and the provinces. He's not even planning to hold a meeting on the issue before the end of the year. But, somehow, it is now being called the "fiscal balance." Problem solved.
The same is true with the long-running softwood dispute with the United States. As far back as March, when Harper sat down with U.S. President George W. Bush, he was starting to refer to the dispute in the past tense. The deal with the United States was announced before it was complete; the victory was repeatedly being hailed even as Ottawa was still negotiating with the lumber industry over whether the terms would be accepted.
Harper, as a student of history, knows that prime ministers often get caught up in long-running, intractable disputes, national unity being chief among them. He seems to have decided it's better to just declare the problem solved and label the leftover, outstanding issues as mere housekeeping.
It's not clear if this could work with the Quebec separatism drama, but Harper may try the approach.
Steve declares victory on allo fronts-Liberal's dead.
hannibal
6 years ago
Yea, Gilles needs to be told what is what .
I agree that he came off great in the debates .
NOw we have to convince him that supporting Harpo is bad idea in a long line of bad ideas .
rkewen
6 years ago
hannibal, from your excerpt:
.
I look soooooo forward to the day that we can refer to Prime Minister Harper in the past tense!
By the way is there any way (since it is a minority and hasn't been consummated)that the Harp's PMship can be annulled?
hannibal
6 years ago
Hmmm! Good question Rkewen .
But I contend he has already phuqued our country in miriad ways .
I should say raped .
rkewen
6 years ago
hannibal:
With oh such great regret I must agree with you hannibal.
oldcrank
6 years ago
Could someone explain to me why the lumber companies are getting this money?
The US imposed a tariff. This raised prices in the US and lowered stumpage in Canada. This means that two groups bore the brunt of the costs. First, US lumber purchasers - in the final analysis usually people buying homes. Second, Canadian taxpayers, who received less tax than they would have had the dutys not been in place.
It is not clear to me that the lumber companies had their profits reduced at all. Yet, they are getting the $4B. Is this why they settled - in hopes they could run with the money before anyone noticed it was not their money?
So, someone who understands this, can you please explain why the lumber companies are getting this money?
hannibal
6 years ago
Yes, it raised the price of an average home by almost $3,000 .
Crank the duties applied by the US were illegal in all forms .
Recent WTO and NAFTA trade tribunals all agreed that they were without precedent and illegal .
The tariffs included a whopping 27% duty on all our softwood products that were illegally collected by the US .
Make no mistake the $ belongs to Canadian producers for having to pay fees to enter the US market .
Now that market has been capped at 34%, and once the prices of lumber falls the duties will be re-applied .
Making this a lose , lose situation for Canadian producers .
This money was paid in extraordinary fees and collected illegally by the US .
We should have gotten all five point three billion back .
rkewen
6 years ago
The Lumber exporters did actually pay the illegal tariffs in the first place and they were held in trust pending resolution at WTO and NAFTA hearing, the rulings of which were laughed off by the Americans. Thus, it is technically the Lumber Exporters money. The only people really profiting from the whole scam are the US Southern Peckerwood Producers (who get their 1/2 BILLION to hire more lawyers for the next round of legal actions) and the Karl Rove Electoral Manipulation Machine and through it the Great War Machine of the Amerikan Empire!
American home builders, buyers, Canadian Lumber producers, Canadian loggers and Millworkers all are specifically targetted losers the way it shakes out.
rkewen
6 years ago
I am told that even Revenue Canada benefits from the 4 Billion that is to be returned. I don't quite understand that though as it is their money, held in trust, not exactly income. But the mysteries of Revenue Canada are far to esoteric for this humble scholar to ever hope to comprehend.
oldcrank
6 years ago
Yes, the Canadian producers paid it and that cost goes on one side of the balance sheet.
But, on the other side of the sheet is the reduced stumpage and the higher cost of the wood in the US. The NET for Canadian producers was probably near zero.
For example, for $100 worth of wood, they sell it in the US for $115, pay $12 less in stumpage, and put the extra $27 into the trust fund. Who paid? Certainly not the lumber company.
So, why are they getting the money back?
hannibal
6 years ago
No kidding Rkewen .They have their very own Grym Grymoir (sp)that they take their cues from .
The way I understand it is our Feds will reap the benefit to finance and further screw our great country .
Democratic deficit ? What democracy ?
Yea, Revcan will take a huge bite of this pie and leave the crumbs for those to whom it is owed .
hannibal
6 years ago
Crank :
We were paying a fee(duties)to have our wood enter the 'free' market .
The Yanks priced it as they saw fit .
Maybe you should read some of the previous posts with concerns to the WTO and NAFTA.
They are most enlightening .
village
6 years ago
Being a student of History and having much enjoyed the discourse by those who posted , I would like to say the following :
1. That the Beaver to softwood lumber comparison as per how corporations do the bidding of their respective countries ...¯ is a most enlightening reminder that `The more things change the more the remain the same
2. Indeed the very realisation that what remained of one past Empire.., as per the [/B]Hudson Bay`s doing it`s bidding in North America..., is indeed ..
3. One of the reasons why all that remains of the territorial presence of the BRITISH EMPIREwithin the North American continent ..., is indeed why we have , in this province the residual name...
BRITISH COLUMBIA*... , ( and of course we have to the east the NEW ENGLAND states as another reminder of a , once , WHEN THE SUN NEVER SETS ON THE EMPIRE to the fact that another now attempts to influence the affairs of the world ...
4. The very same Columbia department that once spread itself ... , over what is now the UNITED STATES AND CANADA`s...¯
respective ...: OREGON, WASHINGTON , IDAHO AND MONTANA...states ,,along with , YES YOU GUESSED IT...: BRITISH COLUMBIA.. * ( and more territories..., to the north of us here... )
5. The point being that the FUR TRADE of an earlier millennia did indeed lay the ground and foundations for how .. we the brave new world settlers from a European cultural expansion ..., did indeed create the process , method and
scorch earth mentality that remains with us .., to this very day*
6. For the pelts , now forest and trees.. to become the instrument of what we`ve given ourselves as our ..
homo sapiens - manifest dominion and manifest destiny... - Indeed the very
mantra that underlies our very actions and thoughts... to this very day.
7. And in terms of languaging.., be it far from the Chinook language of another era.., we speak the language now of the economy and the profit and loss cause and effects that would transform our life..., should we for one moment stop and really ask ourselves.., what it is we are actually creating for not only the immediate , but for the future *...
8. Hell, we might as well simply align our thinking by realising that indeed.., as Jane Jacobs said so clearly in one of her last interviews before passing on...: in that .:.. as far as cultures goes..¯ the danger is really in the realisation that collectively... those cultures who forget that they`ve forgotten.., are indeed spiralling and collapsing .. to a certain oblivion *..
9. Hence , do we in Canada , have we reached that MEMORY BLANK..¯ of not even realising that we are gradually forgetting that we`ve forgotten ?
10. If you want to know more about our LOST AND FOUND COLLECTIVE MEMORY... write to : VILLAGE@MDI.CA [B]
lambert
6 years ago
This was one American's take on the politics of the SLA deal:
But your the experts. Is this plausible?
Link here:
http://www.correntewire.com/450_million_slush_fund_for_bush_from_canadian_lumber_deal_just_in_time_for_the_mid_terms
Followup here:
http://www.correntewire.com/bush_im_a_lumberjack
Say, has anybody heard anything about the list of "meritorious initiatives" that were going to get the $450 million? They were to be "determined" September 1, but there's been no announcement.
independentista
6 years ago
This deal is good for Harper -- it helps him pay his election debts.
Does anyone know how much he owes?
Jack's
6 years ago
Most of you bloggers have short memories.
Remember the days when we were doing exactly what the U.S. has accused us of doing?
That is, Canadian lumber companies paying very little in stumpage fees and dumping our surplus lumber on the American market?
I can remember it happening for at least 10 years in the 1970s and 80s.
hannibal
6 years ago
No Jack's we were not dumping lumber in the US.
We were governed by WTO rules back then .
hannibal
6 years ago
According to the neo-Nazi party their coffers are full with ill-gotten booty by illegal fund raising .
lambert
6 years ago
Here is a followup post on the possible effects of the Softwood Lumber Agreement slush fund on American politics:
http://www.correntewire.com/will_bush_evade_accountability_on_surveillance_by_using_his_softwood_lumber_agreement_slush_fund
Maritimer
6 years ago
I have just read the article. All I can say is that I have e-mailed it to every Canadian address I have, and I hope all of you have done the same. Take advantage of the power of the net, and wake up more Canadians!