Why don't we get a guy from the Fraser Institute to write a weekly column? There is no economics to this article.

Atleast, we would balance this hog-wash out a little bit.

Alberta, over the past 50 years has committed itself to fiscal responsibility. They have managed their economy wonderfully, so that even when oil tanked in the late 80's - they managed to stay afloat.

Now, they are a fairly diversified economy, though still heavily dependent on oil.

Meanwhile, you have British Columbia - who has shown flashes of brilliance and insanity. We have every-bit the natural resources as Alberta, we have a beautiful and long coast-line, we are situated on the pacific rim and we have wonderful interior lakes.

We should be beyond self-sufficient in BC, yet we had two different NDP governments (supported by Marc) who put us in the hole. It tooks years of Socred and BCLiberal rule to reverse the damages of the previous government.

How on earth does BC become a have-not province???? It is a joke.

Now - these socialists want to take Alberta's hard earned money - and hard earned it is. Worker productivity in Alberta eclipses BC by over 25%. What's worse is that people don't appreciate how much Alberta actually gives back already - per capita they give back 4 times more than any other province.

Provinces need to secure their own health and prosperity and not rely on those who actually tighten their belt from time to time. Quebec is the worst of them all.

Now, there are times when we need to help. The depletion of the fisheries stocks in Atlantic Canada is an example.

Whu can't we get Capitalism to check his facts first? At least that would balance some of the hogwash he's trying to mislead us with. Fact: the last NDP gov't left this province well into the black. It took the lying criminal Campbell almost overnight to put BC in the red, and only high prices for oil and gas have reversed that trend.

How convenient!
Now harper and his wing-nut goons are going to get blankets of "protection" circa the stalinist politbureau or nazi inner circle. (I hope the NDP MP's get the same treatment)
He didn't seem to worried when I heard him on the radio this morning though! I mean dudes were "allegedly" going to cut off his head and he made a stupid caucus joke about it.
It was almost like he knew the whole thing was a hoax orchestrated by his cronies in csis to ramp up the whole "war on terror" thing while reviving sagging public support for his bush lite adventure in Afghanistan.

Equalization rewards poor provincial economic performance. Manitoba boasts of having the lowest electricty prices in Canada. They don't charger market rates, which they argue is their perogative. But it exacerbates their deficits so the "have" provinces subsidize their province because they don't charge market rates. Same with Quebec and its $7/day daycare - Ontario and Alberta pay for that...is that fair?

Spare me capitalism! An economy like Alberta's could have Donald Duck running it(it's Goofy right now) and do OK. Let's try a for instance- transfer say New Brunswick's economic base or some cracker state and have Ralph the pisstank run it and see how well he does. If the guy was any good there would be no taxes at all, anywhere in Alberta and it would resemble Dubai. Sounds like he's actually been screwing the residents for a good long while, while tossing them $400 rebates. Wow, less than a coffee a day. Talk about a cheap date.

neocon says: "...is that fair?"

Is it fair that some people are born into wealthy families? Is it fair that a particular geographical feature happens to be seeded with diamonds? Is it fair that their are large amounts of oil relatively easy to access under the ground, and that exploiting them is a way to abundant riches in our current context? Is it fair that idiotic farming practices have resulted in cows getting a brain disease that poses a danger to humans, but a good marketing guilt trip has convinced many Canadians to support an industry that has done next to nothing to improve those practices?

The problem numbnuts is that your definition of fair centers entirely on a set of ideological definitions of good and bad that have almost nothing to do with reality. You only recognize very particular kinds of collective action as good; specifically that taken by corporations and capital market transactions that fit into your blinkered notions of economics.

Alberta won the oil lottery in 1947, and has been enjoying the massive economic benefits ever since. That doesn't make Albertans any better at managing anything than anyone else. It simply makes them lucky. I actually find it hilarious that anyone is so blind as to argue that fiscal management is the reason for Alberta's current economic success.

neocon
And Alberta charges appropriate royalties for the natural resources that are pouring out of the province every day?

What utter nonsense. At least the equalization dollars going from Alberta to Quebec is being put to good use providing needed services for young families in that province - unlike Alberta whose citizens can't find good affordable day care while the economic benefits go to multi-national oil companies.

if it so easy for Alberta, then why doesn't Saskatchewan boom ??

They have oil, natural gas, potash, uranium, potential wealth coming out there ying-yang.

Oh ya and a socialist government that stifles initiative, over taxes, over regulates, stuffs the Provincial payroll with public sector employees implementing useless programs.

Ya, its too easy for Alberta.

Assuming Ontario's hydro power projects (esp. Niagara) are classified as a natural resource - and therefore also exempt equalization. But I thought the federal government helped Ontario foot the bill in the Niagara project?

However, the author makes the argument that it was because of Alberta's (and a few other provinces) poverty level that equalization was originally introduced.... to meet the basic standards of education and other necessities.

Too bad every Albertan doesn't realize this. Klein is certainly in denial.

A very good, informative article Marc Lee.

This is a stupid argument. The price of oil is high - it hasn't always been that way - and now the have-nots want some of the booty. The politics of envy - typical of left minded whiners. They can't figure out how to put their own house in order. Much easier to cry about it. Egalitarianism maybe nice in theory, but it ain't reality. Some of you need to read about Harrison Bergeron.

jammer
Saskatchewan is still paying off the theft and mismanagement of the last Conservative government in that province - among other things.

neocon
you might want to remember that Alberta went bankrupt during the 30s...not even Saskatchewan was as big a basket case. If Alberta were paying for being the major polluter in Canada (almost 1/3 of the total CO2 emmisions and more than any other province in 2005) it wouldn't have so much cash to worry about.

Hunter:

I know you won't understand this concept, but I am going to try and describe the difference between defecit and debt. The NDP had a significant budget deficit for most of their 10 years. Their deficits weren't as large as the 1st BCLiberal defict, because they increased our debt-load to service their ridiculous operating short-falls.

Under the NDP, provincial debt ballooned to $34B from $17B, under the BC Liberals, debt has increased modestly to about $38 (approx). Deficits are all about cash inflows (tax revenues, energy royalties and debt issuances) less costs of administering programs.

+ Tax Revenue (T) + Royalties (R) + Debt issuance (D) - Expenses (E)

The NDP had a large (D) nearly every year.

Secondly, they had one budget surplus at the end of their term - which was a result of spinning off Powerex and the rolling black-outs in California - without this there would have been a big deficit.

sorry, should be 'emissions'

James Burns:

Why can't we, or Saskatchewan be as prosperous as Alberta. Read my little rant - we have a beautiful coastline, fossil fuels, copper and coal up the wazu, fisheries and forestry.

Saskatchewan has potash, uranium and oil!!

The reason is regulation and commitment to business and fiscal prudunce. Neocon is right - Alberta and Ontario are paying the bill for other provinces mismanagement of finances. This is Klien's beef - he would be much more content giving money away if other provinces acted as responsibly.

G West

I agree that Alberta is a major contributor to carbon emissions. It doesn't make environemntal sense to burn natural gas to get oil. This is a problem to which there are many proposed theoretical solutions, and not practical solutions right now. We consumers are very much part of the problem too.

The 30's were tough time for many.

Give Alberta a break. Just because they are conservative isn't a reason to vilify them.
These riches are not an accident.
When I was in grade four, being educated in Alberta in 1961, we took a course named 'Enterprise', imagine that. The subject for this course, for the entire year was called 'Petroleum'.
We learned all about exploration, drilling, refining , we took field trips to pipe manufactures, oilfields and many more.
Before special interest groups like aboriginals and environmentalists woke up, we had everything already done.
It's the hard work of Albertans forty years ago that is finally blossoming into the riches they deserve. Our only friends back then were Americans from Texas and Oklahoma, who moved to Alberta to help start up this important industry.
The rest of Canada has sat on their hands, and now expects to cash in on our hard work.
All I can say is FU, you aren't poor anyway.

IAMClueless:

Was that the only thing you studied? Now I understand the nominal cluelessness of everything you post to this site.

Albertans hard work put the oil in the shale underneath a third of the province! If that is what you learned in Grade IV you haven't learned much since.

What a great concept. Why is it that our educators confine us to the world of their ideologies? Growing up, we are taught nothing about risks and entrepreurship.

Our eductors don't teach us to dream, let alone teach us anything about ambition. Imagine the productivity and self-dependence we as a society would have, if we were taught 'Enterprise' along with peripheral courses like history, geography, physical education, french, music, and the sciences.

I exlude english and mathematics as these are (in my opinion) the two critical subjects.

Some of the comments here are so stupid and ignorant as to be beyond belief. When King Ralph took over, he did what had to be done, he cut expenses and balanced the budget. As I recall, oil was around $10/bbl about 8 years ago. At the time, I was involved with the local golf course. We had a yearly grant that we used to service our debt. It disappeared overnight with the budget cuts. We survived through ingenuity and hard work, things this country used to be known for. As for natural resources, I know of no province that has more than B.C., yet when they had NDP governments they went from a have to a have not province almost immediately. Canada is a rich country and virtually every province has an abundance of natural resources whether it be Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec with hydro or the NWT with diamonds and energy. It is how each juridiction manages it's wealth that makes the difference. IMO, B.C. should be exploiting it's off shore oil and gas deposits. That it chooses not to is it's concern and that of the electorate. But by the same token, don't come crying that you don't have enough when you have more than anyone else but you choose not to take advantage of it.

To my understanding, the biggest critic of the current equalization is Ontario, not Alberta. I do agree with the way Klein has gone to a flat tax and has forced the ROC to be more competitive. I'm cheering him on.

But why does oil in the ground belong to Alberta, but oil offshore NFLD belong to the feds? Why is PEI a province? Welcome to Canada!

Gotta get into this.

Capitalism, as a former Alberta resident (2X), alberta has been anything but fiscally responsible. In the late 1980's and early 1990's, the Alberta gov't continued to spend like drunken sailors, even though oil prices (read provincial revenue dropped) andd unemployment soared with 50,000 losing their jobs in oil and related industries. Along came Klein with a big emphasis on austerity. In reality, cuts were to areas that were not seen as priorities for gov't but spending continued and does to a far greater extent even to this day. If you want to see a lean provincial gov't over the last 25 years, don't look at Alberta, look at BC whgich has had the smallest gov't to pop ratio through the entire period (yes including the NDP years) in spite pof the most rapid population growth in the country (3% per year in the mid 1990's). Austerity here was in 1980 and it was austerity.

Saskatchewan? In 1990 they were running a huge deficit and the debt was soaring (that's how the realtionship works as you pointed out) under the leadership of Grant Devine (conservative gov't that got the province into an number of failed mega projects). since that time, the fiscal situation has been strong in spite of having a very difficult (geographically) province to run. This is based on resource revenue as. This is not as great as Alberta as the resources are not as great as in Alberta. Today, Alberta's economy is more dependent on oil than it was in the 1970's, in spite of 50+ years of production.

If Alberta has this good fortune, good for them. If industry has moved to even greater use of capital (labour productivity up), good for them but as an example of a prudently run government, well it misses by a long shot.

moodyguy:

I agree with you that Alberta has not been fiscally repsponsible - they can literally "afford" not to be.

Saskatchwan is the newest "have" province - before BC - and deservedly so.

Capitalism:

Say no more! History? Peripheral??!!!! Sciences? Peripheral??!!!!! What an imbecile you are!

Why is the oil in Alberta, Alberta's oil? Why is it not Canadian oil?

Grub,

You can survive in this world without knowing a single thing about Canadian or international history. You can also survive without taking a single chemistry, physics or biology class.

You cannot, however, function in society without knowing how to read or do basic mathematics.

I am not saying that these subjects are not useful, however so is business.

grub; Provinces own their natural resources, that's why. Where would the incentive come from for Albertans to develop this industry if they had to share their wealth with useless places like the Maritimes ?
Socialism doesn't work, you idiot. Move to France if you want to live in a F***ed up country.

GREAT article in today's NP, reprinted from the Times' Nicholas Kristoff "Fight Poverty: Build Sweatshops". He's written thoughtful articles on this subject before.

You'd NEVER see this kind of article on this waste-o-time website.

neocon, Manitoba's electricity rate does not affect equalization. Neither does Quebec's $7 a day daycare.

Logjam, if you think Saskatchewan has the same advantages as Alberta then why did the Saskatchewan economy tank when the Liberals and Conservatives have been in power there? Devine had 10 years and the Conservatives turned the economy from strong into a basket-case.

Capitalism,

He already has a column for the Sun. Why don't you write the Sun and ask them to hire someone like Marc Lee to help balance things out?

The relationship of deficits to debt means you have to have deficits if you're going to create debt. Your statement above implies that somehow the NDP avoided deficits the size of the Liberals because they were increasing our debt. That doesn't make sense. For the debt to increase the NDP would have to have been running deficits, which they were in many years.

The causes are obvious, the BC economy was doing great under the NDP in the early 90's, tops in Canada much of the time in fact. Then the Martin cuts hit us but it mainly hurt gov't finances as the NDP ran deficits so as not to pass the federal cuts on to the degree other provinces did. This is why health care was maintained here much better than elsewhere, but at a cost. It was later when the economy tanked, around the period of the Asian crisies. Property prices in BC also tumbled at the same time.

But the NDP left office after two balanced budgets, not one, and they did not enjoy any external luck greater than what the Libs have enjoyed since.

In fact I always chuckle when I hear a Lib supporter blaming things like SARS, while ignoring the Asian collapse in the mid 90's. SARS had a negligible effect on BC while the Asian collapse had a real impact.

Give credit where its due. The NDP performed well in the early 90's and at the end of their term. The bad years have obvious explanations which anyone can judge for themselves if they're not too politically motivated.

neocon,

Nobody whines more in this country than business. Its why things like the Council of CEO's, Chambers of Commerce and Fraser Institute's exist. To whine 24/7.

Its why people like Phil Hochstein spend more time in front of a camera than they do anywhere else, its a good place to whine.

Its why lobbyists make their living from whining for business, not for individual Canadians.

Is it just the geographical area you hate or is also the people in it? They're Canadians. Most of them have probably been in Canada longer than your family. Alberta was "created" by Canada. Why shouldn't Canadians in every part of the country benefit from Alberta and Maritime oil? We're not 10 separate countries.

Capitalism: my comment was about your notion that a course in "Enterprise" would be more important than a course in science or history. That's just plain stupid.

Without science (and how you can separate science from math is beyond me -- where does one discipline start and the other end?) you're going to be hard-pressed to determine whether an enterprise is viable or not; unless you think enterprise has nothing to do with technology and is only about slick marketing. Whoops! Slick marketing = psychology. Might that fit into the realm of science?

Going back to the top of this list to the usual troll song: I didn't realize The Fraser Institute was in economics ? For all practical purposes it is an advertising agency for the legalization of thievery.

The sale of resources is not an income, but the sale of capital. This is warned against in every business theory textbook. Only fraudulent economists account it as GDP and income.

Therefore, Alberta's so called "productivity" is, in reality, an economic suicide, known and realized by many prominent Albertans, who can still think independently, and who wish Klein would have gone to hell long ago.

Secondly, that temporary "wealth" will be paid for very heavily, when the reactions to the irresponsible extraction processes will start coming home in mass cancers, ecological collapse and so on and on, probably making large areas of the province uninhabitable, with the rest Canada paying for the real costs in far more than transfer payments.

Anybody who has any praise for these criminal actions has some serious mental problems. On the other hand, what can one expect from nutty ideologues, whether tghey call themselves national socialists, communists, or capitalists, unable to think further than tomorrow ?

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I wouldn't say more important, however I would say equally important. The most successful people in this country have a business background. It wouldn't hurt, to be taught at an early age about financial concepts, personal and corporate finance, about entrepreneurship - perhaps business projects.

Most people don't touch the periodic table past grade 8, but people count money the rest of their lives. Further, there are too many miserable people in this world, who work in dead end and meaningless jobs. People should be inspired at an early age to take risks, and create their own future.

Actually, a study was done a few years ago which showed that most successful people in Canada had rich parents.

I'm not saying that you have to have rich parents in order to become very successful, just that it helps.

Frank:

In fact I always chuckle when I hear a Lib supporter blaming things like SARS, while ignoring the Asian collapse in the mid 90's. SARS had a negligible effect on BC while the Asian collapse had a real impact.

Give credit where its due. The NDP performed well in the early 90's and at the end of their term. The bad years have obvious explanations which anyone can judge for themselves if they're not too politically motivated.

I will agree that the BC Liberals were able to re-balance the budget faster than anticipated due to the strong housing market, in particular - due to outside factors - Alberta oil boom and interest rates. So, there was some external luck - though the NDPs were flukes - everybody knows that. The Liberals forecasted for deficits.

SARS and 9/11 destroyed the tourist industry. We have also been fighting a strong CDN dollar, which is crippling Ontario and Quebec. Our lumber industry has been hammered as a result. These events are at a minimum equal to the Asian collapse. Asia has never been close to a primary driver of our economy.

The economy was good under the NDP for about 1 and a half years - which is due exclusively to policies implemented by the Socreds and an immediate spike due to increased government spending - before the taxes caught up.

I'll give the NDP credit, where it is due. They serviced the public sector unions for 10 years. If you were a public sector employee, you were laughing all the way to the bank.

Frank:

I believe that could be true - however, I believe it is because those rich parents communicated that drive and determination to their kids.

The parents taught them "enterprise", when the educators weren't.

Capitalism:

REALLY!!!! First, define successful.

Now, let's see: Celine Dion. Successful? Business background? Ben Hepner. Successful? Business background? Wayne Gretzky. Successful? Business background? Tony Onley. Successful? Business background?

Give your head a shake!

Capitalism:

Oh, of course, you're right! Technology doesn't drive the economy; accountants do.

You get funnier by the minute.

SARS had almost no effect on one sector of the BC economy. 911's effect was greater but still small.

The Asian collapse had a greater effect than you believe because you can look at the data on BC Stats for yourself. Unless you think the NDP suddenly got very stupid after 6 years. The economic data shows the drop in our economic activity coiniciding with the Asian crises. We are the most exposed province to Asia.

The economy was good under the NDP for longer than 1.5 years, you'd have to be pretty ideological to say otherwise.

As for the lumber industry, the overall effect of things has not been any worse under the Libs than it was under the NDP, who also dealt with protectionism.

Where did I say we should stop teaching science? I think science is valuable, but no more valuable than business. You don't have an economy without the businesspeople.

The scientists are merely those that carry out their boss' instructions.

Not everybody has the intellectual ability to be a professional, but everybody has the ability to work hard, take risks and empower themselves to succeed.

Frank - the only time we've seen the economy this good was during the late 80's.

The Liberals will always do a better job at managing the economy, because they are generally businessmen.

The NDP will always administer more effective social programs, because they are social workers.

Under the Liberals, risk will be rewarded and the rich will be better off. Under the NDP, the rich will be penalized, risk will be taxed and corporations will leave to Alberta (oil) or Nevada (mining).

There is a trade-off.

Fiat Lux: So the sale of oil is actually the sale of capital? Are you not saying that we would therefore be better off leaving it in the ground? Lot of good that would do anyone. Mass cancers, ecological collapse, large portions of the province inhabitable? We have been extracting oil and gas here for some 60 years now on a large scale. People live longer, better lives than ever in history. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Extracting oil from wells is not the same as from the destruction caused by and from the oil sands. What I read about the damaga caused to the Athabasca river and nearby ecologies, is a crime against humanity.

Resource extraction without accounting for the depletion and the damage caused by the extraction, then accounting the cleaning up of the damage, or the damage caused by accidents, as GDP is not only stupid but criminal.

If I sell my property, or goods off the shelf I can't account it as "income", without also accounting the debits for replacements etc. So, where are the debits for resource extraction, subtracted from the overall ? I don't know of any in any government figures, because it is not happening in neoclassical economic accounting.

In any case, most of the oil could be left in the ground and the world would be a better place with locally based economic systems, using resources frugally and for real needs, not for transporting goods and commuting for long distances.

We need, oil and transport, we all have to use them, I have a truck and tractors, but when I see long lines of semi trucks taking our lumber South on Hwy 97 in BC, that used to be and still could be done more efficiently by trains, that's not a rational economy and definitely not GDP, even if the fools account it as such.

The same happened on the Praeries, with thousands of km. of rail lines torn up and the grain forced onto truck and roads, as "more efficient".

Ed Deak.

Capitalism,

Again, I point you to BC Stats. You claim the success the NDP enjoyed early on was because of the Socreds. The data suggests the opposite.

The Socreds in fact left BC with anemic growth. This was par for the course, you'll recall that in 1983 we had -8% GDP growth. This was followed in 1983 with -.2, 1984 with .6, and even the year of Expo with a terrible .3

1987, 1988 and 1989 were good but still hadn't made up for 1982-1986 and then in 1991 we were at 1.5% trending downwards.

Starting in 1992 the NDP recorded growth rates of 3.2, 2.3, 4.9, .1, 2.4, 4.2, -.1 (1998), 2.2, 3.2, 3.5

The Liberals starting in 2002 have recorded rates of 2.5, 3.7, 4.8 and 4.8

Clearly the NDP can take some credit. Their economic performance is better than the Socreds and except for the Asian crisis year their overall performace can be seen quite clearly as good.

I keep seeing capitalism's name in the comments and I can't tell you how much better it is to ignore his comments and focus on those with a brain and a heart. Give ignoring his drivel a try and see for yourself!!

Just to add, not only was the GDP under the NDP fine but their performace on health care, worker benefits, child policies etc exceeded the results from the Libs even though in absolute terms the Libs are spending more money. This leads me to believe the NDP are also better managers than the Libs as they got better results with fewer dollars.

It should also be clear from the data that the economy was trending sharply upwards even before the Libs were elected except for a sputter in 2002 (caused by Lib tax cuts to the better off while increasing taxes on the rest?).

When the Libs took over the economy was doing very well. It still is doing only a little over 1% better than it was doing in 2001, the year the NDP left office.

We would sure as hell be better leaving it there in the ground, husbanding it and using it wisely for our own development and future need, than pumping it from the friggin' ground as fast and furiously as we can, polluting the entire surrounding tar sands eco-system, just to sell it off to the US Empire for the immediate riches of a few "market sociopaths". Fait is right. This is suicidal insanity.

Where is an NEP when one really needs it? Trudeau, there is not one in this entire network of Conservative market thugs that has the vision you had in your little finger alone, on this issue. (And I was never a Liberal or never voted once for Trudeau. Still he was many times the Canadian, with an understanding of this nation and its economic and political needs none of this current crew of politicians, even within the NDP, has since been the equal of.)

The nation and we are the victims of a parliamentary and political system dominated by such "market" thieves-, and cowards too timid to challenge them. (Looking at you Jack and Carole.)

Especially such a strategic resource that effects the present and future well being and development of the entire Canadian nation needs to be treated as a national resource, not just something that serves the gluttonous needs or "money wealth ambitions" of Alberta and its US friends, as Fait says, thieves all. The country will pay for this theft in the end, as will the ordinary citizenry of Alberta.

A den of thieves and traitors to the entire country is this complete cabal of capitalist marketeers, that talks of "empty headed economics" like they really understood what they are talking about. Fuking Bubble Heads.

Capitalism:

You "empower yourself to succeed" through knowledge and hard work.

The scientists are merely those that carry out their boss' instructions.

Sorry, you're wrong. You don't have an economy without knowledge and without products/services to trade. What's a businessperson without products or services? Who creates products? Scientists. Engineers. Technicians. Craftspeople. All of which requires science, but very little in the way of "enterprise" skills.

Good scientists definitely do not carry out their bosses instructions, primarily because their bosses, if they're your kind of bosses, wouldn't have a clue about science and wouldn't know what instructions to give.

I can just see it: Capitalism as boss of scientists, "OK, guys, create me a cure for cancer or something else I can flog to unsuspecting consumers."

And then Capitalism thinks the scientists will hop right to it and do as they've been asked to do. Why? Perhaps they admire Capitalism so much for his hard work (and forgive him his scientific ignorance).

Capitalism, your model of the economy hasn't existed (if it ever did) in decades. Did the 1990's pass you right by? Are you completely unaware of the biotech industry right here in the Lower Mainland?

Yup, those scientists (mostly PhDs) hop right to it when the boss gives a directive. Yup, major technological breakthroughs are right there for the bosses' asking.

Give me a break!
(Editing disabled while spellchecking)
Stop spell checking

As for Alberta, the oil wealth that happens to lie under the ground in one part of Canada should belong to all of us. Just as in other countries oil wealth is shared throughout the country. You don't see only Northumberland benefitting from North Sea oil in Britain, or only the city of Trondheim in Norway.

Alberta already gets the benefits of head offices and rig workers, the rest of natural resource wealth should be shared equally. In fact I don't even see the point of having provinces at all but that's a different discussion.

Frank:

Absolutely!

Goddamn, Frank, I agree entirely, save for Quebec and Native territories, which I think we have to resolve, like the issues of Scotland and Wales in Great Britain, Otherwise I much favour the rest of the country, Anglo-Canada certainly, divided into more local "counties" or some such.

Hopefully the opportunity to discuss this issue will present itself in due course. Provinces per se, as consitituted, provide too powerful of competing powers, competing with and being divisive of the national interest with a "national government", which is a "must have" in my view. It also succeeds at localizing those issues more particular to "localities" better, I think, especially the fractious and contentious power issues which attract competing larger and more self serving special interests.

Outside of myself, you are the first person I have come across with this similar view of "provincial" entities and their power. Break them up and more localize the power base says I into smaller districts and/or counties, with but one over-arching national governance power. Gone the regional/provincial "fiefdom" games of constant "separatist" threat to the nation within the three main national groups at least-, in one country. A necessary if somewhat regrettable concession and "recognition", in order to successfully unify these three main divergent and particular "national" interests within a "single state structure".

Too much, Frank. I am pleased that we agree, even if only in broad outline, on this subject of the "provinces" problem.

It is why we need a radicalizing, even revolutionary process within Canada, and a kind of "People's Constituent Assembly" to go along with it, in order to address and rewrite these matters of import to the future of a new, more truly indpendant and sovereign Canada. Both Quebecers and First Nations have been fundamentally right on this one all along frankly-, even if not to the dotting of all the i's and crossing of all the t's. We need to concede that. We in Anglo-Canada have simply been too much locked into the US orbit to see it, and hung up on ourselves-, in my view. That needs to change.

I'm not sure why Tyee writers keep promoting the canard that "Alberta couldn't get out of equalization even if it wanted to". To repeat: ask any constitutional lawyer, and they'll tell you that all that is needed is a provincial referendum with a clear question and a clear majority to enter into negotiations to alter the terms of confederation. That would be the Quebec Reference case. I guess that what flows from that is that what Alberta thinks, matters. In the end, they have a big stick. Dear Tyee, please advise your writers to speak with a constitutional lawyer before offering expert opinions on this matter. Thank you.

Coyote,

I agree with that

That too

Yup

Regions based on a combination of geography and population as well as other factors such as history. PEI would remain a single unit in my view and the GVRD would be another.

Combined with real electoral and parliamentary reform at the national level.

Frig the so called "constitutional lawyers". It is the "will of the people that makes and breaks Consitutions", and if need be to beat back you western "provincial separatist" fuks, here too.

Where "the law" ceases to reflect the will of a people aroused, it is soon destined to become "ancient history". What is really needed in these times of a Conservative/Conservative-Liberal Alliance/ NDP hiding under the bed dominance of the provincial and national governance mechanisms, serving a regional and/or national special "business-ruling class" interest in breaking up the country, the better to spoon feed it to US Imperialism, is an aroused populace with a revolutionary will to secure the country. In the process of which, to put down down these special "capitalist marketeer" interests and their "provincial" divide and rule allies and strategy, and to launch new premises to unite the country, defend it against external design and internal traitorous infamy, and recreate whole a new, egalitarian and firm premise for the unity of the "entire" country.

That failed, this country is destined, it seems to me, to fall into Balkanization benefitting only both its external and internal "ruling class" enemies. And they are not in any far off Middle East or so-called terrorist plots coming from there, but the greater threats reside much closer to home than that, within a privileged ruling status quo and an Imperial Amerikkka just across our southern border, who but all merely seek to set us all to quarrelling amongst ourselves for their own self-serving ends.

Time really is running out. The need to organize and respond grows more and more urgent. They, the "Conservative" enemies of the country are of a mind to betray us.

Alberta needs to be brought up short and put in its proper place and perspective. Ditto BC and all other "provinces" of a size and special set of "business interests" of threat to a unified Canada. And that includes Ontario.

I should have again added to my above piece, the observation that I think it is time for Anglo-Canada to separate from the United States and join with Quebec and first Nations. That at rock bottom is what it is really going to take to secure and unify the entire country, and if necessary, entirely new constitutional and governance arrangements.

And lawyers will not and should not be allowed to stand in the way of that.

Combined with real electoral and parliamentary reform at the national level." Frank.

Yup.

Scary. That was too easy. :-)

PEI - it is crazy isn't it. I had the fortunes of being in the maritimes recently (for my first time) - primarily in Nova Scotia.

I took the trip over to PEI - just because - and there was NOTHING there. They have just over 100K people which is smaller than kelowna. Best - they are represented by 4 people.

They have 4 MPs for the 1 in my riding - North Vancouver....

Why are they a province?

Did you tour the Anne of Green Gables thing? PEI is the number one location in the world my daughter wants to go to, all because of Anne. Beats everything else I threw at her, even Disneyland. Which is fine with me, I'd rather have a root canal than go back to LA.

As for the province thing, no reason except that it seemed like a good idea at the time.

What does France have? 100+ 'departments'? In a little country. Most countries do just fine without powerful provinces. Cuts down on gov't expense accounts too.

This story is a good argument for the elimination of all provincial governments with one federal government and local municipal governments to put out the fires and pick up the trash.

What do we need the redundancy of 3 tiers of government for anyway?

I doubt this concept could even fly in BC where major cities such as Vancouver have more police departments and fire departments than I have pairs of socks.

As a person who had a short stint in Alberta I experienced the lowest tax rates in Canada, above average income, lowest unemployment, reasonable housing costs, etc. etc., but I could never jump on board and parrot how "we are being screwed over by the rest of Canada." For god sakes, most of these nimrods don't even know Stephen Harper was born and raised in Toronto!

Before any progress in made with Alberta in terms of federalism, someone will have to sneak in and put something in the water.

Excuse me? G West, are you trying out for last comic standing because this material is a joke. Jinny Sims is a professional whiner. Eagle Ridge Bluffs Protesters? Fine Whine and Fine Wine. Jim Sinclair actually sounds like a child when he whines. People protesting cuts to welfare or legal aid? Bitching, whining and wishing they went to college (and didn't study philosophy). "I want day care, I'm entitled to this, i'm entitled to that, whine, whine whine." That is the leftist mantra and its disgusting.

By the way, as a British Columbian. This whole article would be moot if somebody grew some cojones and lifted those awful moratoriums and sucked some dollars out of those lands.

Frank, cutting down on expense accounts is a great idea. I think in order to keep the costs of government down, however, we have to have smaller government, reduce useless departments (Heritage, status of minorities, etc) amalgamate others and reduce th federal bureaucracy.

Oh and another thing...I insure a prospector, and he says the NDP were a disaster for the mining industry...So putting socialists in charge of natural resources would be a disaster. Over 50 mining companies left BC when the Barbarian NDP were in power in the 90s. Many moved to Alberta, the US and South America. Try blaming the Asian flu for that! Today, Mining is booming in BC.

G West should certainly have said that no one whines more than TC 99. Trouble is, G West is totally igniring the cutter so that's not so surprising. Anyway, cutter's posts this morning obviously demonstrate who actually complains the most.

Ditto my last comment for taxnutter 99

I can name you about 50 whining commies - I challenge you to name 5 whiners from the business community.

At times they assert, but never whine.

What does France have? 100+ 'departments'? In a little country. Most countries do just fine without powerful provinces. Cuts down on gov't expense accounts too." Frank.

Amen again, brother.

Even Tax Cutter will doubtless be impressed with our proposal to eliminate an entire level of government bureaucracy. (Ya think?)

Certainly the Western Separatist crown and the usual crew of US Empire Loyalists have suddenly fallen silent. I heard a great jesus intake of breath, but no exhale yet. Perhaps they have fallen over and into permanent silence with apoplexy. Ya think?

That or they just don't know how the hell to respond. The simplicity of it is just all too overwhelming for them. They are still using overly complicated right wing formulae, trying to compute their potential tax cuts. 8=D LOL

What pathetics.

And I hear you, Chilled. "This story is a good argument for the elimination of all provincial governments..."

And you would be right, I think. :-)

Aciabiades,

Bang on. Nobody whines more than business. And the bigger they are, the more they whine. They are in hear soiling good type with their constant crying about taxes and tax cuts all the bloody time. Outside of that, they have nothing else to offer, ever. Every goddamn one of them.

BC mines were closing because of low prices, not because of the NDP. Lies may be the basis of politics, but try to keep them at a reasonable level! Do you ideologically challenged nuts think that everybody was born yesterday?

This happened in this neighbourhood with the Gibraltar and Polley Lake copper mines, now both booming, because prices doubled and tripled. Polley opened under the NDP and closed under the Liberals, because of low prices, but now operating again at full capacity, taking wealth out of the country at half million bucks per truckload.

The one thing could be true is that the NDP forced mines to follow environmental regulations, while the Liberals are allowing them to get away with murder, admitted even by employees, who say they've never seen such bloody mess. Environmental destruction is the most profitable racket.

But "foreign investors" must be cuddled, or else who would steal our resources for peanuts?

We need these carpetbaggers like holes in the head. Anybody who knows anything about business also knows that when you have resources, you have capital. Especially under deregulated money creation by the banks. Daaaaaaaaaa!!!

But now, under crooked NAFTA and WTO rules, once this multinational mafia sets foot into the country, they can not be kicked out, no matter how harmful their actions.

Ed Deak.

Based on what I have read here this a:m, it is fairly apparent that the solution of most of the posters here is Marxism/Communism/Socialism. If you are going to nationalize all natural resources, that would include forestry, hydro electric as well as oil and gas. While you are at it, might as well do the same with manufacturing because they use natural resources in their processes. Morons and asshats is too nice a description for people who think they know better than everyone else and that if we would only do what you obviously enlightened people tell us to do, all would be better. Sheer hypocrisy. Get it through your thick heads, capitalism is not perfect but marxism/communism/socialism has already proven to bring lower standards of living, ecological disaster etc not to mention the death of a couple hundred million innocents in the last century. But then you guys don't like to deal with reality, just call people names and deride them. Coyote, you are obviously a Stalinist with an arrogance that exceeds your intellect. Have fun.

Greed. The stench of new money wafting over the mountains leaving a blight on this great land of ours. Self important they are now as they roll up the welcome mat "Get out if you can't pull your own weight!" "We don't need welfare cases here, go on, git!" The attitude of new money. Self serving, and entitlement is the way now. What's in it for me? We're in great shape! Why can't you be more like us. I'm not taking handouts from the government why should anyone else? The attitude of new money, always smug and lacking any vision. No class. No compassion. Hope you'll be happy in your new life...

oilbertan:

Am I missing something? I didn't hear anyone say "nationalize". Where did you read that?

I think people are saying that natural resources belong to "all" Canadians. Hence, royalties, stumpage, whatever, ought to accrue to the nation, not to the province that has whatever the resource is.

Yessir, oilnut! When something is not white, it must be red! There's no other way, no middlegrounds, no nothing. Shoot the lot of the goddamn commies, who dare to question foreign investors and their wealth creating activities.

For your information, my pathetic friend, my family has been in the communist fighting business since 1919 and I have a 45 year record going back to 1944, in the frontlines as 17 year old volunteer, sentenced to the gulags by the communists, but not carried out. My mother was gangraped by Soviet troops, my grandparents died from the effects of starvation under the Soviets, my uncle was in jail for 15 years for anti communist activities.

I have been a voter in BC since 1956 and an independent property and business owner, former manufacturing trade employer since 1957. The obvious record of a diehard commie!

When it comes to human and ecological destruction, the Soviets were masters of it, but it was limited to the area under their control. But what goes on now under the neocon inspired, neoclassical market economy theory is
the biggest crime wave in history. Both against the environment and humanity.

It is now uprooting, destroying and killing more people on a long term daily basis than both World Wars and the death camps of Stalin, Hitler and Mao put together. A child dies of starvation somewhere around the globe every 5 seconds, thanks to neoclassical capitalism, because saving them would be "socialistic".

But then what's the point in arguing with ideological idiots, especially when the crimes they support are feeding money and power into their hands. Or into the hands of their ideological masters.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

8-D LOL. I was initially going to respond to this, oilglutton, but after reading the responses to your lunatic tirade, I see there is no need. You are nothing. And folks here are onto you and your ideological kind.

TC99:

"Somebody". Who would that "somebody" be?

Let's review: those "dollars" (resources) belong to us -- you and me. If there's any sucking to be done, I want to make sure I get my fair share (let's not go down the road of low stumpage rates; we tried that and got screwed).

Further, let's ensure that we do the proper accounting; damage to the environment must be accounted for and remediated. No more damned externalities where the taxpayer picks up the bill. BTW, that ought to appeal to you, TAXCUTTER99 -- we reduce our tax burden by having corporations clean up the messes they create.

"Why is PEI a province?"

Read a history book and see for yourself. It's a province for the same reason that Alberta and any other provinces are. Also, PEI has four MPs and four senators representing only 130,000 residents, and a guaranteed year-round link to the mainland, for the same reason.

It's the constitution, stupid. The same constitution that we all live under and uphold. The same constitution that wisely uses equalization to ensure a bare minimum standard of transportation, educational, and health care infrastructure for all Canadians.

Albertans needn't worry that moneys coming out of their part of the country are being used frivolously in other regions. If Ralph Klein, Link Byfield and all the other "survival of the fittest and damn all the rest" set were to ever set foot on PEI, they would see that it will be a long time before people there will ever receive a $400 PR cheque from their provincial government. Hell, even with equalization, it still looks like it will be a long time before PEI residents will even be able to have decent roads or enough doctors!

The idea of equalization is a very Canadian idea. If the sound of the word "Canadian" (or the word "socialism", for that matter) being used in that sense grates anyone, it is only because he or she is "anti-Canadian" (and "anti-social"). Such people should just move to Texas already. They will be happier there. They will still be able to look down their noses from their huge SUVs and pickups at the "lazy" people (and the immigrants). But, there, they just won't have to give them a helping hand - and nobody there will try to make them feel guilty for doing so.

I've got a grand-daughter graduating from University, the first in our line, and of whom we are all very proud, which the Mrs and I are off to attend. So I will be gone for a couple days. Just to let persons I consider friends here know that I have not forever abandoned them. (Which includes my friend BC Mary, of course.):-)

But before I shut the old pc down and we up, up and away :-), I have to acknowledge how much I got out of and valued the pieces by Grub and JRB directly above this here. It always pleases me to rediscover that there are lots of good folks actually out there, coming from many philosophical or ideas streams, who get and see through this current reactionary period imposed upon us and the nation by this Neoconazi crew, much active attempting to be wreckers here.

It is important that we not let these arseholes succeed at it, and carry the final day of reckoning-, that is out there.

Frank:

Yes - did tour it. It was pretty neat. You can go to her (the lady that wrote it, can't remember her name) original house. It has quite the vintage feeling. There are rolling green hills and a little museum. That was all there was in the entire province. There was also a confederation museum in Charlottetown and driving over the Confederation bridge is neat - although you are unable to see the water for most of it.

I thought Barkersville was a bit neater.

The maritimes are a beautiful place. I would recommend that trip with your daughter. Though, the scenery is nicer in BC. There is an entirely different culture out there. NFLD had a great feeling and I loved the wharf in Halifax..

Please. I live in Alberta. Around here, fiscal responsibility is code for taking away funding from health care or education or any kind of welfare. The Klein government is on principle opposed to taxpayer-funded social services of any kind. King Ralph himself famously showed up drunk at a homeless shelter one night, and ranted against the homeless while throwing money on the ground. Oil and gas revenues are the sole reason why the provincial government enjoys a surplus, not because they are wise managers of the taxpayers' money.

An important point that no one has made yet: productivity is measured by GDP/people/some measure of time. Alberta is the benefactor of a highly capital intensive industry, thus skewing the productivity numbers upward. Especially here in Alberta, people say that we're so much harder working than everyone else. I don't think that's necessarily true, and using a productivity measure linked to GDP is a very poor way to make that assessment.

Klein's cuts to education and health care in the early 90's were irresponsible, as they choked off an investment that is long-term in nature. My fear is that we'll have a new government that will be saddled politically with the long-term effects of these cutbacks.

lots of whining and blather from the lefties here. yawn....

Elliot,

What would you guys have to say if you hadn't had the chance to memorize a few childish cliches?

You remind me of the communist faithful, who were calling anybody not agreeing with their idiocies a "capitalist imperialist".

Yawn to you kid !

Ed Deak.

this just in from canwest goebel:

"four legs good, two legs bad,
four legs good, two legs bad
gordo good, ndp bad,
gordo good, ndp bad
harper good, chavez bad,
harper good, chavez bad"

There elliot you have something new to add to your repitoire!
Remember elliot-orthodoxy is unconsciousness!

So many postings, in so many places, remind me of a wonderful phrase I came across in the paper a few weeks ago - the tyranny of the anecdote. That is, the refutation of any argument, well thought out or not, with a-story-I-heard-from-so-and-so or an-item-I-read-last-week. The spinner then presses the submit button and dashes off to answer the call of nature or pick up the kids, without having to cite any sources, provide any context, or back up with facts. I love that phrase, because these days it seems we're always battling the mindsets born of these little gems of wisdom. The anecdotal prospector has, with his mal mot, provided Taxcutter with the evidence that we're all going to hell in a handbasket, and it is now TC's holy duty to get everyone to change their misguided thinking.

And yes, I know my [/I]tyranny of the anecdote[I] is purely anecdotal, and thus we all go about out-ouroborosing each other through eternity.

If the name calling here gets any worse I may as well go back to USENET, a.k.a "the armpit of the internet." I have found the postings here to be above the average usually found online, I hope it stays that way. Obviously some educated and knowlegeable people congregate here. I'm just a wannabe and know it.

I am known to throw dirt at groups, concepts, governments, politics, etc., etc., but individuals should remain off limits, it usually negatively changes the dynamics of the debate and produces nothing useful.

My two cents, anyway.

(namecalling of Albertans the exception, of course) LOL

Well, if you need to read Fraser Institute articles you can always go buy a Vancouver Sun or a Globe and Mail; not that Michael Campbell talks economics so much as rhetoric and invective, but if you consider that economics you already know where to find Fraser Institute articles; unless you're one of those who think that "telling both sides of the story" isn't a dodge so as to give stupidity/evil time with common sense/good. Equivocation in the name of fairness is an old dodge, and a perilous one....

Although it is hard to accept the PEI should be a province with a little more than 100, 000 people, it is likely the only province with a unique identity. Being small and an island helps. Having lived in PEI for 2 years and in Quebec for 2 as well, I would say that even Quebec doesn't have a sense of identity like PEI. It is interesting to hear some say that the Atlantic provinces are "have not provinces." That was not always the case. They were the wealthiest part of Canada when confederation came about and then the power shifted to Quebec and Ontario. They have paid a heavy price for being in Canada. The other thing that happened to the Atlantic region was industrialized fishing. Rather than going out in the long-liners, draggers would come along and drag the bottom for cod rather than fishong by hook. This decimated both the cod and its living space so the backbone of the economy was destroyed. It may come back and I hear the may be some cod fishing soon. Atlantic salmon is no longer fished except for in the Miramichi River and that is only because many rich folks have fishing lodges on the river. The only Atlantic salmon you can buy is fish-farmed on the west coast. PEI has developed wind generating operations but they can't export because the present federal government has cut off support for helping to build the power lines. I guess the oil patch needs to have tax write-offs and subsidies more. It seems the federal conservatives want to keep them as a have-not province.

Good posting dudes...Coyote,Ed, and others...Cool.

When I got my "prosperity check", it went straight to under privledged people, abused animals, and the enviroment. These "Ralphy Bucks" epitomizes the gluttony of the Klein government. Everything is second to $$. Klein is a sad and pathetic human being, and an embarassment to our province and it's citizens.

It is not about "sharing" as that imply's it was Alberta's in the first place...It's about love and respect of Mother Earth and all that inhabit her, and putting that first. Yeah, spending money on that instead of making fat cats fatter... It's quite simple really.

Yeah, "love" Ralphy...Stick that in a pipe and smoke it...

Peace...

RTB

Thanks Capitalism, I look forward to seeing PEI myself. I made it to New Brunswick, Gagetown specifically, but we didn't get much time for travelling. I've read the books and watched all the movies with my daughter so I might enjoy it myself :-)

Coyote, have a good few days! Congratulations to your daughter.

TaxCutter, that wasn't G West, it was me. And I wouldn't argue with you that Jinny isn't a whiner, that's her job. The point is no one creates as many whining organizations and pays as many professional whiners as business. So until the day they shut down all their "Institutes" and "Chambers" and "Councils" and "Associations" they should be the last people in Canada whining about someone else's whining.

I can't let so much constitutional BS go by without throwing in my two cents:

First, for those who think that it is 'Alberta's' oil because the constitution allows provinces to manage natural resources must also admit that it is not Alberta's beef, but only Canada's.

Second, while many have made claims suggesting they have a clue about constitutional history, they are all dead wrong.

The essential logic of ss. 91 and 92 was to leave matters of a local nature to provincial governments, and important matters to the feds. At that time, 'natural resources' were an obvious bet to be provincial.

Important matters were all to be in the hands of the feds. If the same drafters were in the present day, they would without a doubt make oil and gas a federal authority.

Now, not many people understand that virtually anything has both federal and provincial aspects to it. For example, it is Alberta's right to manage natural resources, but the feds can tax it however they want. Indeed, the feds could criminalise the whole industry and the provincial government could do nothing.

Further, when it comes to the 'double-aspect' of any particular matter, there is a federal paramountcy doctrine so that the feds have the ultimate authority.

Further still, there are 'national concern' and 'emergency' doctrines that give the feds power to legislate in any area of 'provincial authorty' if required. Certainly all you wanna-be business pros would admit that oil is considered a national concern in virtually every country in the world, and could be here as well. And as for all the socialists, they will agree that at the very least climate change is of national concern. So both the right and left wing should admit that it is not Alberta's oil in any case.

Harper and the rest of the 'firewall' types are enemies of Canada.

And now he talks about limiting the federal spending authorty in provincial areas.

Canada is already THE ONLY federal state in the world where the federal government does not have treaty-implimentation power in areas of constitutional provincial juristiction. This is because at the time the constitution was drafted, it allowed for federal implimentation of treaties entered into 'by the empire', and did not contemplate at the time that Canada would become independent. Then, through a disasterous set of cases beginning with 'the Labour Conventions Case', we find ourselves in the present state of affairs.

Anyway, enough for now. I just think that 'capitalism' and 'neocon' should check their ideology at the door.

Alberta is a young, urban province, of recent immigrants. Virtually all settlers came on a train, plane, or automobile. All the 'tough wild west' stuff is a bunch of crap. Go study the Blackfoot-Ktunaxa wars, the Blackfoot-Shoshone wars, the Blackfoot-American freeman battles, and the Blackfoot-Sioux wars if you wanna know who struggled for that land. Only after smallpox wiped out 80% of the population (1781); and the above-mantioned battles resulted in a 3 to 1 female to male ratio at the time Thompson arrived; followed by over a hundred years of liqour trade with that drastically reduced population; and, finally, when they built railway tracks right to the door, did the so-called 'tough Albertans' arrive.

That they think they somehow 'own' that land more that any other Canadian is BS.

And they better really reflect hard on the future costs of fighting climate change, which all Canadians (and citizens of every nation) will have to pay for.

Basta ya.

I really should have edited that.

cosmo said: "That they think they somehow 'own' that land more that any other Canadian is BS.

And they better really reflect hard on the future costs of fighting climate change, which all Canadians (and citizens of every nation) will have to pay for".

Here-here "cosmo"... True words dude...RTB

Here is the notion that gets us in one fix after another: that anybody owns the land. We don't own anything, we pass through. All our stupid machinations only serve to try forget that simple fact. All our amassing of moolah only let us think we have some consequence. Go out and look at the breakers on the west coast. Go to the top of Panorama Ridge and look. Realize that we are guests, of a very temporary sort, and we had better show some respect to the hostess, or we won't have a share in the dinner. Perspective? hopefully. Let's get down to Earth and shed some of our bratty tendencies, progress lies that way.

"Wealth is the temporary control of energy and resources"

Ed Deak.

This is just plain mean: I am trying to point out what the human condition truly is, and someone tries to shut me up with a persnickety answer-book answer.

It is not the technical grasp of ‘ownership’ as the corporate culture understands it, that I have a problem with, it’s the notion that it is so dastardly important or even meaningful, that there is practically nothing we won’t stoop to in order to ‘acquire’ or ‘guard’. Existentialist philosophers point out, that we are all living on Death Row, as in not if, but when. Zen sages teach us, that we should view the glass as already broken. Then where do we come from slugging it out in a low-down dirty way, because we accidentally scratch the polish of each others’ Beamers? And why is there such a thing as ‘cutthroat competition’? And, pray, why is there this grim and petty battle about ‘wealth’? There is only one kind of wealth, the answer-book notwithstanding, and that is the one we can engender each moment with as we live it. For the only things we can ever lay claim to as property is every breath, as we draw it, and the measure of wit and benevolent action we can transform that measure of life into. Nothing belongs to us, until we give it away.

Good comment, Cosmo. Well put.

"Wealth is the temporary control of energy and resources"

Ed Deak.

...I get it Ed...cool. Perhaps an extension of that could be "True" wealth is even deeper than that, and has nothing to do with wealth...

Peace

RTB

Perfectly put dorothy... You "get it" girlfriend.

Thank you..RTB

A ditty for dudes...

"Loving is truly a beutiful thing,
the more that you give, the more it will bring,
the more that it brings the more givings to do,
so your hearts always searching to love someone new...

Even those times when you love returns void, your hearts just replenished, it's never distroyed...and if you be as like this, your love will increase when all Love dwelling in you is freely released. Your rich when you see that love's not to surpress, unlike your Visa, or American Express...

So what care should you have for the silver you spend on things with beginnings and things with an end... Know that Love is consistent with how much you give NOT the economy or the times which you live... Your hearts then filled full, stuffed, jammed, compressed packed of Love to pour onto those hearts that have lacked...rtb.

Peace.

RTB

A couple posts ago... An "wording error. Here is the correction. Sorry 'bout that.

"Wealth is the temporary control of energy and resources"

Ed Deak

...I get it Ed...cool. Perhaps an extension of that could be "True" wealth is even deeper than that, and has nothing to do with wealth ("...nothing to do with MONEY" it should say)...

RTB

I'm in Edmonton. Ralph Klein's is out of step with the debate about the equalization issue.
It's 9 to 1, and Ralph is the one.
I read Lorne Gunter in The Edmonton Journal, and he had a reasonable explanation.
It will be repeated in the Post. Read it and you will see what I mean.

IAMCreepy...I was raised with neoconin' rightwingin', rednecken', oil baron, dog-eat-dogen',and heartless to the enviromental wonders, so I am trained to recognize what "they" look like...

There is nothing you, King Ralph, or Lorne Gunter can say that would ever convince me that respecting, helping, and preserving the Earth and all those that live on her, (with NO regard to man-made provincial borders), is not just the 'right' thing to do...but simply, the ONLY thing to do. Fat cats fatter doesn't work for me dude...We need to CARE and LOVE a little more than that...

RTB

Listen Right to Bitch, I don't know what I said to deserve such a bitter response from you.
Are you happy ? I doubt it.
I am trained to recognize what a 'leftwingin',
'wimpish', 'liberal', 'pessimistic' loser looks like, and it looks like you.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

The facts above tell the present Equalization rates.

Quebec's near 5 billion a year is almost $100 a week. I guess that's how they can afford, among other things, to give so many business subsidies, including 50% for two years of new immigrant technicians hired by private corporations. Individual taxes remain high but corporations have a plethora of financial advantages. Note: If a certain dictionary-challenged child finds the word plethora a struggle don't just chastise me as you're wont; it's used on the Montreal Government web site relating to business incentives.

http://www.rense.com/general67/rtc.htm

I don't live in Alberta but it's a well known fact that the Federal Government will, and has, reap(ed) the greatest windfall.

A few others here seem to think that Albertas oil and other natural resources belong to all Canadians. Try telling that to Quebec regarding their forests and mines! Talk a bout a constitutional crisis.

Oh, regarding the constitution, some think that the provinces should be scrapped and many more mini feifdoms created. Think how PEI, for one example would feel about loosing all their power in House and the Senate - or would they have more? Not likely unless we'd have hundreds more MP's and Senators. Almost in the same breath the idea is floated that we all come together with one national government but Quebec stays alone. How would Quebec react to this 24 million state as opposed to their 6 million one is comedic to contemplate. The scrapping of all provincial statutes and those being replaced by the then now needed federal ones would be fun to consider.

I don't agree with much of Ed Deak waxes on about but he's right on the money here:

I disagree with Fiat lux also on the reason, oh, it's not just me, the mining industry packed up and left BC during the dark and destructive days when miners were put out of work too. Here's the leader of the new and improved NDP, this week;

As for the grub,

Keep 'em coming. You guys are a laugh a minute. I love coming home from a hard day's work to see what the peed-off, dreaming in Technicolor serially envious-crowd have been raising their blood pressure over. They seem to mostly want the good old days, whenever they were. In fact, I'm surprised some of these people have computers. I imagine them happier in a wood hut sending howling calls across a chasm.

Bracing now for the counter.

realisticman;
It is a good thing you find this site funny!
I bet you will be laughing even more when Gordo gets mining going in all our provincial parks?
And a real howler of enjoyment to you when they begin to drill in the seismic fault line off the Charlottes?
Exploration for, and extraction of natural rescources should only be undertaken once we have the technology to do so safely.
It would be quite prudent of us, to let some of those rescources be, for our kids and grandkids to have some benefit from!

Was there a conspiracy between the BC NDP and all of these South American leftist Governments to shift mining form BC to South America, in order to prop up left wing governments ?
How else can you explain those endless moratoriums on anything that wreaked of dirt busting ?

I hate to use the vernacular Gloomy but, Hello! Mankind has been mining since the early bronze age and that began five thousand five hundred years ago! You don't think we know how to it properly yet? Go and tell that to Carole James and the NDP. If the Gordon Campbell Liberals don't re-start the mining industry in BC then the NDP will. And, the parks will be OK because they both know that this is a very sensitive subject for the populace, and they are part of the populace too.

As for extracting oil from beneath the sea bed, think of Norway, Britain, off the coast of California (San Andreas fault) and the Gulf of Mexico and tell me about all the devastation that's happened in those waters. Yes, rigs have gone down but where's the damage? The technology and the safeguards exist, now.

Hey, we'd all like to ride in a solar powered vehicle but we ain't there yet.

Alberta should not own their oil resources when extracting Tar Sands oil ( basically the only oil production in Canada that is increasing ) relies on using 13 million litres of water a day from the Athabasca River. True they recycle some of this water but that is a pile of irreplaceable resource being used for a diminishing resource. Where does all the Tar Sands oil go? To the USA ( and in the near future to China ).

A recent article in Canadian Business magazine pointed out that the boom in Alberta is causing wages to go up, property values to go up and is causing other businesses to leave the province.They suggested a cap on Tar Sands development so other parts of the economy would not be harmed. Great posts from Alberta residents!!

I agree with Frank & Coyote that oil is a Canadian resource, not just provincial. I aslo agree with what Ed says, you are selling a non renewable resource without planning for what will happen when it is gone. To waste precious water that way should be a crime.

All the business types love to promote corporations as a pure form of organization worthy of support whereas social spending and unions and teachers are a waste of money. Well, in Canada, social spending like our health care policies is the reason Toyota invested here instead of the USA. Social programs are an investment in people just as important as investing in roads or machinery.

Here are five major whiners of the business community :1. Thomas D'Aquino and the Council of Chief executives who sold us down the river with NAFTA 2. Sherry Cooper, an economist with one of the big banks who , years ago whined that we should get rid of the Canadian dollar 3. The Forest companies of BC who hid behind the law and are shipping jobs out of BC as massive raw log exports 4. the Chambres of Commerce who can only talk about tax cuts which deny the government revenue and give already wealthy people more money to spend outside the country on luxury items 5. USA dominated Tar Sands companies who benefit from public resources like water but cry that they cannot meet Kyoto greenhouse gas emmision limits when the technology exists to reduce these but they are too short sighted to make this investment.

The free market types in Alberta linked electricity costs to the open market just when the price of natural gas skyrocketed and then had to bribe voters with payoff checks. I understand Alberta has the most expensive energy prices in the country. Boy, isn't that great planning!!

I think business education is a good idea but this ping pong back and forth between business and labour does not solve anything.
That is why a sustainable economy must be good for business - good for workers -good for the environment. In Alberta, the environment is being forgotten. Maybe that is why it was the place with the highest Green Party vote in the last Federal Election.

Gloomy said: "...and a real howler of enjoyment to you when they begin to drill in the seismic fault line off the Charlottes?
Exploration for, and extraction of natural rescources should only be undertaken once we have the technology to do so safely.
It would be quite prudent of us, to let some of those rescources be, for our kids and grandkids to have some benefit from!"

Well said Gloomy. Exploration and exploitation sound simular but are very different...

We need to use only what we need to live, as to not take away from our childrens children...

Thanks for your post...RTB

IAMC: I appologize for my outburst. We may think differently on some Earth subjects of importance, but I am appreciative of the opprotunity to communicate and share our views...

Peace dude.

RTB

Coyote said: "Trudeau, there is not one in this entire network of Conservative market thugs that has the vision you had in your little finger alone, on this issue. (And I was never a Liberal or never voted once for Trudeau. Still he was many times the Canadian, with an understanding of this nation and its economic and political needs none of this current crew of politicians, even within the NDP, has since been the equal of.)"

Right on Bro...I feel the same way about Trudeau, and always have. One can say what they will about him, he loved the "wild-things". Thankfully his son Justin is using his voice and carrying the torch for the Earth's issues now.

RTB

Me three for Trudeau!

The National Energy Program (Plan) (NEP) was created under Trudeau and was meant to gradually give our resources back to Canadians - much to Alberta's dismay.
Maybe Alberta had a legit bitch finance-wise, but the American hand has been in Alberta's pocket ever since Mulroney surfaced - and we haven't been able to call our country our own.

Mexico learned from our experience - and South America learned from our NAFTA fiasco.

I'm interested in the debate regarding who rightfully owns resources.

Saskatchewan sells a billion dollars worth of mined potash a year, should that be theirs or all Canadians?

Same question re. nickel in Ontario.

What about hydro generated electricity in Newfoundland, Quebec and Ontario, etc.?

How about the forests?

One would have to include the corn as that becomes more used for ethanol.

If Alberta has invested billions to bring the oil to market and it will now be considered Canada's, should the same apply to all energy, including that produced from gas, wind or nuclear? If so are the provinces entitled to compensation for any expenditures to build the infrastucture?

If we all own the resources then should we now pay back BC Hydro, Manitoba Hydro and Quebec Hydro the billions they spent to develop these resources?

I can't imagine how any private money would ever be spent to develop new technologies like tidal power (Nova Scotia's Bay of Fundy has the highest tides in the world), when the developers would be aware that all the power generated would be owned by the Federal state.

The only answer I can see would be a nationalisation of all power generated, excepting perhaps, power generated by individuals themselves. Then we would have each province lobbying for development funds for their own pet projects, including the power generating refineries and sub-stations.

realisticman:

Hello to you too!
Yes, man has always found a way to wrest the riches out of the earth; what he has failed to do is to be safe about it!
The public winds up paying for a lot of misadventures where the entrepenours just disappear and leave a glorious ecological disaster behind!
Can you say Brittania Mines?
So, my point is that we leave stuff alone in the earth or sea, untill such a time that we are aware of all the possible implications of our greediness.
The False Creek re-development is another item, where business make a mess, and the public pays through the nose to get it cleaned up!
My suggestion is that any new development is forced to post a substantial amount of money, that sits frozen untill they have cleared the site eventually and to everyones's satisfaction!
That seem excessive, but business has proven time and again they do not have any social conscience!

Right on Jack's.

Good comments Realisticman.

First I want to say we are taking WAY more than we need from the Earth. We are breaking her...

What we are doing now is not sustainable, and somehow, we need to learn to settle for "less" in order to have "more"

Canada is a country we are NOT a bunch of street gangs. Everything, including the energy resourses, food and so on from each province, should be to be split fairly and in accordance to need, amungst the other provinces. Those buinesses (from where-ever) investing in (perferably alternative) energy here in Canada, need to fincially benifit in order for the incentive to continue to invest remains. Then, of course, splitting the remaining profits amungst the provinces of Canada. But as I mentioned before, we need to live, not what we need to live "high".

RTB

Opps...last line on above. Sorry...

"But as I mentioned before, ONLY WHAT we need to live, not what we need to live "high".

...RTB

Gloomy said: "So, my point is that we leave stuff alone in the earth or sea, untill such a time that we are aware of all the possible implications of our greediness".

I like the way you think Gloomy.

Alberta and all it creatures, are paying the price of pure ignorance. Sask. and B.C. are not stripping the top layer off of most of the land like Alberta is in the Oil Sands. No it is Alberta that has taken the next step by maiming the wonderful and perfect ecologies that have existed for millions of years harmoniously in the awesome Boreal forests.

My first hope is that we STOP NOW from going any further with these irreparable projects. If that does not happen, and once again WE have to learn the hard way at the costs of the innocent. With that lesson, I hope the other "Oil" provinces will learn to be repectful, and less invasive and cruel to the living Earth. I hope we all will soon learn to take only what we need. I know that I am not the only one that feels this way...

Peace

RTB

I agree, Gloomy, with the idea that any ecologically sensitive projet undertaken by private interests should require, as part of the permitting contract process, the corporation to post a bond to be used for any necessary clean-up of the site during and after their work. The bond should be held in trust with the interest equally shared between the corporation (they're entitiled to this as part of their investment) and the state (the interest compounding as protection against possible escalating costs).

RTB

I understand the (U.S.) companies taking the oil out of the tar sands are resurfacing and regrowing plant life in the damaged areas.
However there is the enormous amount of water needed to extract the oil, which ends up polluted. At any rate it's a lose-lose situation for mother earth.

Yes geezer65 they are for the most part "reclaiming" the land after they are "done" with it. A friend of mine works for one of the larger Oil companies involved in the Sands project. She fills me in on the details of reclaimation and its effect. In short, it does not work. It is a "green-washing", which is all about image making fro these large corporations.

Consider this geezer65, within the perfect ecologies on Mother Earth there is no excesses and no debt. Everything here serves a purpose, or else it would be gone. The Boreal Forests slated for destruction by the Oil Sands project, contains a great deal of marsh land which directly and indirectly supports a unimaginable abundance of life. For instance, a dropper of H20 from a Boreal marsh contains millions of interdependanct species living out their life in a perfect coexisting, harmonious way...One dropper full...!! Further, the marsh itself cleans and purifies the surrounding land and water. Marshes are the "kidney's" of the land. It filters out impurities, and performs a irreplaceable function...to keep the earth clean. This is NOT usless land, in a useless area, this land and it's systems have evolved into this perfect, life sustaining function, over the course of millions and millions or years. it's systems are perfectly designed...

We as ego driven humans claim to understand ecologies and habitats, and therefore attempt in a "creater-like" way to duplicate it after we destroy it. The enviromental consutants, and other professionals hired by the oil companies to address the land reclaimation issue, know this is an impossible undertaking but their bought and paid for words, still claim it's success. Image making or protecting is important to these huge companies...It is called Green-washing.

In short geezer65 imo, we as humans do not even know enough to know what we do not know... The intricacy of the natural world is inconceivable to us simple beasts...

Peace...RTB

QUOTE: "Where would the incentive come from for Albertans to develop this industry if they had to share their wealth with useless places like the Maritimes ? Socialism doesn't work, you idiot." IAMC

The incentive comes from adding value - industries that 'develop' the resource, having regard to social and environmental costs. The oil in Alberta does not belong to Alberta, except because of a colonialist assertion of sovereignty, now the constitution. The oil should belong to Africa since it was provided by nature, not by anything we have done to deserve it. Resource rents (forestry stumpage / bonus bids) should not go to fund programs for rich Canadians. They should go to those who have an equal claim to it, and those who need it. In the liberal property rights tradition of Locke, we can claim as our property that which we "improve."

Seperatism is a great idea. I consider myself a seperatist. Specifically, I think Canada should seperate from Alberta. Let them keep "their" oil.

The Norwegian economy is a prosperous bastion of welfare capitalism, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. The government controls key areas such as the vital petroleum sector (through large-scale state enterprises). The country is richly endowed with natural resources - petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals - and is highly dependent on its oil production and international oil prices, with oil and gas accounting for one-third of exports.http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/no.html

Those who own the resources, protect their investment with very large intimidating machines. Stuff like ICBM's, nuclear aircraft carriers, star wars technology, tanks with armour piercing rounds etc. Smart bombs have temporary contol of the wealth. It may be temporary but they've got a pretty good grip on it. Try and loosen it a little and see what happens.

Let's hope the Oilers peak before we reach peak oil!