People love a good war, as long as they are not their fighting! These chocolate soldiers would pee thier collective pants if faced with conditions in Afghanistan.

The problem is far more complex than Dobbin asserts, but certainly it seems the gangsters are now in control, abetted by Hapless Harper, Bin Ladin hunting Bush, and other minor countries.

Personally, I think Canada should pull out of the UN, pull out of NATO and become a truely neutral nation.

The land forces are so small that the soldiers can probably expect to be on a six month in/six month out rotation. It won't be long before the Canadian soldiers start saying to themselves "what the hell are we doing here" and start putting in for their releases. Additionally, Harper's plans for increasing the military by 15,000 is not going to happen over night, so Canada will be hardpressed to be in Afghanistan for much longer than 2008/2009.

And do the Afganis really want foreign troops there? Perhaps the few Christians who fear the knock on the door!

Apparently there is a resurgence of the Taliban and (according to news reports) many (especially men) appreciate what the Taliban does for their religion!

And now Harper makes use of all of Bush's words (e.g. supporting the mission is the same as supporting the trooops; vote no to extend the mission and you are not supporting the troops).

Good luck recruiting! Sure was a lot easier 75 years ago!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

There are some 'facts' in Dobbins' article which are very startling to say the least.

There isn't a country in the world that wants foreign occupiers for any length of time.
This latest vote to extend Canada's "participation" in Afghanistan has given many Canadians serious doubts about Harper.
It's any easy thing to get in touch with his office via email.

I don't think it is a given he will read it. Herr Harper's arrogance was well displayed in this vote.

Litereate, informed, well written article. Thank you Mr. Dobbin. And a few more facts: Stephen Harper DOES NOT represent a majority of Canadians. Inspite of massive Liberal corruption, Canadians STILL refused to install Harper with a majority. Think about it. Yet he takes the reins of Canada as if he has a mandate. We are faced with a very weak time in government and leadership. Historically a dangerous state of affairs. Which is often the rise of facism. Is history repeating itself yet again...

Dude, wake up! somebody's got your gun!

What exactly is the plan for pee wee's big adventure anyway? How long do you think it'll take before most Canadians realize we’re subbing in for the Yanks and we have no more clues than they do?

This is about kissing the US Empire's ass.

It's about the US building an oil pipeline from the northern 'stan, through Afghanistan to US tankers in the Arabian Sea bound for Amerikkka. It's about oil and Empire, the "treasure" lures which have often tramped imperial armies across that poor, long suffering land and its people. (Which included the old USSR as much as it does the current US Empire.)

Start your own researches from here, with this BBC report:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1626889.stm

And we are there, doing what current Colonial Canada does best; taking the hit for Amerikkkan Imperialism so that it can concentrate its forces on another oil rich prize, Iraq, and control of the rest of the Middle East.

Canada = bootlick colonial state to US imperialism.

End of friggin' story.

Whereas our real independant and sovereign interest, had we two clues to rub together and even an independant minded ruling class, lies in the US military being defeated abroad, so that we can build a military of our own, under our own entire complete control, serving our own national interest, and thence more safely secure control of our own country, its economic and land assets-, and defend them from the US Empire-, if need be.

Our greatest potential enemy is much closer to home than way off in far Afghanistan. Though we may now have invited the Taliban and Al Quada to now view ourselves as a legitimate war target.

And Jack's is right. Get ahold of Harper now. Fill his mailbox with opposition to this insane war on behalf of the US Empire.

We have greater need of the treasure it will cost for our own languishing social infrastructure such as medical and child care. And even put to a military use, to the actual real defence and strengthening of our control over our own home territory, including our far north-, where it is challenged again, not by the Taliban, but US imperialism.

Wake up and smell the coffee, Canada.

And don't wake Colin fer fuk sake. He's been half asleep all along here. Let him intellectually snooze his life away.

Look at the headline in today's NP - It is regrettable that some people still don't get it and write drivel like this based on their misguided beliefs and hatred of anything American.

Thank God for Stephen Harper, John Howard, Tony Blair and Dubya. You're wrong JJ, Canadians will give Harper a majority - just you wait. History is repeating itself with the rise of Islamofacism.

And Grumpy, I can't imagine anything more pathetic than wishing Canada to become a "truly neutral nation". Is that your vision of what we should become...a country that doesn't stand for anything?

I hate the spread of hatred, and this website does a good job of promoting it.

I disagree with this article. Working with our NATO allies is not tantamount to being subservient to the USA.

I think human rights, education for women, etc, is worth fighting for. Our allies in Afghanistan are counting on us to help stem the tide of ethnic pashtun islamic-fascist imperialism. We need to work with farmers to help them grow alternatives to opium -- for that they need security and access to markets.

This article hammers on Harper's allegedly negative personal characteristics & supposed love for America, yet the Afghanistan mission was initiated by the previous Liberal government, who certainly cannot be accused of kowtowing to the USA.

With rhetoric like "yankee lovers" and "lap dog", this article demonstrates itself to be partisan crap at its worst. I am disappointed that such a pro-Taliban article would be taken seriously in Canada.

Dobbin says: " ... A good deal of the answer lies in the decay and political corruption of the so-called "natural governing party," the Liberals. The danger Canada faces at the hands of Stephen Harper is not dissimilar to that experienced by the US, despite the enormous differences in political culture. I am reminded here of Ronald Reagan and one of the reasons he was so popular. Most people forget -- if they ever knew -- that in polling on actual issues, a majority of Americans disagreed with almost everything Reagan did.

"So why was he so popular? Because people looked at Reagan, then looked at the Democrats, and concluded one simple thing: Reagan, at least, was a man who believed in what he was doing. Voters were so tired of the opportunism and lack of political principle on the part of the Democrats that they supported a president simply on the basis that at least he believed in something."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This is what has always, from 28 Dec. 03, scared the bejaypers out of me, fearing that, If the full story of the Legislature Raids comes out in court, Paul Martin would be revealed as the worst opportunist, and with the whole Liberal Party, be flung out of office for decades. So the choice is: protect that? Or reach for the cleaning solvents?

Too many of Martin's Liberal cronies are in his league. It's a damn shame. But that doesn't make Stephen Harper any the better; in fact, he's carefully using each glimpse of corruption to climb his own ladder. All I can see is a crying need for Canadians to figure this out, and begin to participate in ... what was it? ... Participatory Democracy?

BTW, a Brit friend on observing Harper, asked if I had heard of the toilet bowl cleaner, "Harpic", advertised in the U.K. with the motto "Clean around the bend."

The danger in Canada is that many have come to the same conclusion about the Liberals.

[I][U]

[Tyee editor: There are problems with the edit function ... couldn't use quote, bold, italics ... but didn't know they were this bad. Sorry.]

I can hardly wait for Dobbin's "penetrating analysis" of this story:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=11fbf4a8-282a-4d18-954f-546709b1240f&k=32073

Afghanistan is not a war, it's a battle. The real war is throughout the Middle East, mostly in Iraq now, perhaps in Iran and other countries later. What Canada is doing is to fight a rearguard action for the Americans while they concentrate all their forces into screwing up Iraq. It's a rearguard action that is getting more and more difficult: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4994448.stm . The locals fight a guerrilla war and stave off, maybe even expel, a powerful invader. What else is new?

This has nothing to do with Al Qaeda or 9-11. All references to terrorism are for propaganda purposes only. If they really wanted to destroy Al Qaeda, they should concentrate their forces on doing just that. If their real objective is a gang of terrorists holed up in the mountains, why don't they go and get them? Surely it can't be that hard. But what would happen if they did arrest bin Laden and dismantle Al Qaeda? What would be the rationale for invading the Middle East then?

For its support of the great American imperialistic adventure, Canada may yet become a target of a major terror attack. Look at the bombing of the Atocha train station in Madrid; or the London bombings. It's not inconceivable that we might have the Toronto bombings, or the Montreal bombings. Would this be an acceptable price to pay for supporting the US in ... what exactly?

Are Canadians smart enough to understand a bit of strategy before it's explained to them with diagrams in history books thirty years after the fact? Or are Canadians only capable of understanding war at the comic book level, with caricaturesque good guys and bad guys, and lots of "boom!s" and "bang!s" and explosions where no one really gets hurt (except the bad guys, of course)?

Because this is what it comes down to, really. Hos smart are Canadians?

That should be "how smart ..."

While the author's use of such terms as 'lap dog' and calling the operation 'sordid' without identifying why does detract from the message Murray Dobbin is putting forward; the need for the extension of the mission is questionable.

The material presented in the Commons did not include any mission details, did not include any funding proposals, did not even give a clear picture of what the 'purpose' the troops would serve - other than continuing the US-led Operation "Enduring Freedom".

The mask of the US in the initiation of NATO in 'asking' Canada to take over the Kandahar mission. What other NATO nation is even connected to the mission? US and Canada are the only two with troops on the ground now. UK is gone, they are still sending $$$ via Brussels, but no troops. Italy, France, Germany and Spain have all refused to send service personnel (not that Italy has all that many to send anyway). If Canada 'takes over' responsibility from NATO for the mission then the rest of NATO can wash their hands of it and distance themselves from the adventure. Watch for it, I suspect that there will be a Canadian military officer named to a senior NATO post in Feb 2007, then the plug gets pulled in the fall of 2007 with all NATO money and involvement gone by new year 2008.

Few in Europe want to participate in anything with the US right now, too many uncertainties about what the US Administration will get into next. Leaving their 'allies' holding the tiger by the tail, while they go off to catch another tiger.

We, in Canada, do not have the Heavy Lift capability to get out from Afghanistan with any speed. Watch for the 'exit strategy' to NOT be discussed in any way - YOU DO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS IF YOU TALK LIKE THAT! Is the sort of statement you will hear. The truth is that exit is the real bug-a-boo in Afghanistan. It is a very mountainous region, with no access to the sea; so forget the navy being any help.

If we 'continue' in country and 'take over' command for 2 more years this will allow the US troops that are still there to leave. And leave they will; with further losses likely in Iraq and Iran sabre-rattling the US build-up will be happening. If the US goes into Iran; they, the US, will be needing and using (and loosing) that heavy lift transport that Canada would need to get out from Afghanistan without massive loss of life (something like 90-100%).

Ask the Soviets how easy leaving Afghanistan was...

Now that the vote has been marginally in support (I note that Harper had said before the vote that he was going to extend a year whether the vote was in support or not = just another clear indication that we do not, have not, nor will ever live in a democratic state), the US will accelerate their departure, leaving no-one but Canadians (and anyone else the US admin can strong-arm into being there) on the ground, so why not have a Canadian 'in command'?

Once the US gets itself stuck to the other tar-baby in Iran, our military will have no way out from Afghanistan that will not cost either a lot of $$$ (with the Germans or Russians) or lives (trying to drive or march out).

Others have posted here that history is repeating itself, I agree with Mark Twain,

"History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme."

In the vein of comparisons, if the USA is Rome, then Canada is Gaul.

This is a stupid comparison. Gaul was a conquered province of Rome. The USA has not conquered nor occupied Canada.

Because this is what it comes down to, really. Hos smart are Canadians?" OnTheOtherHand.

Excellent piece, OnTheOtherHand, and an entirely appropriate summation posed as a question to Canadians. We need a national smartening up-, BIGTIME. These Vichy style Neoconazis of our own are going to have to be dealt with as the Fifth Columnist traitors to our nation that they are.

THEY are the real enemy amongst us.

Why can't people see this monster for what it is?
As for "every man/women for themselves", not even that is really true but a facade for a two tiered economic system where the wealthy, conservative cronies and their corporate puppet masters live as aristocracy while the rest of us fight for the scraps.
As I said earlier harper is coming to vancouver on May 25 to attend a "tribute" dinner for number one hack john reynolds.
Every sleazy, corporate, rightwing fascist in BC will probably be in attendance to see their imperious leader.

Jeffrey J. wrote:

Ah, but we will, we will.

And if we do elect another Liberal minority government, the Bloc and the NDP will vote with their allies the Conservatives to defeat it, and at that point we'll probably end up with a Conservative majority government anyway.

At this rate, we'll be in Afghanistan for years to come, enforcing the strict Sharia code on behalf of the Afghani government for the sake of "supporting the troops."

IF there is a plan developed by groups of true "left" Canadian patriots to attend corporate dinner for Harper, I would hope that folks here who might be involved in that would keep us informed here. Certainly, with even a couple days warning, I and the Mrs would make the effort to get to the coast to participate in this support the troops by bringing them home gathering.

If the time lines are too tight, and this one has to be allowed to slide by, in good time other such opportunities should be jumped on at the first indication. Our opposition to participation in the US Empire Middle East war plan needs to begin to get serious.

Good one, Coyote.

I wonder if maybe we can all agree to stop using that stupid mantra about "supporting the troops." The stupid Americans used it during the Vietnam War, helping to needlessly kill 58,000 American troops and from 1-3 million Vietnamese. (the estimates vary)

Now Harper's saying stuff like: "We don't cut and run," aping Bush.

Even the husband of that woman soldier who was killed said something like: "We can't just run away with our tails between our legs because a couple of soldiers get killed."

The issue is not about supporting troops; it's about whether the mission is a good idea.

A good rule of thumb might be to instantly NOT believe anyone who says we gotta support our troops--as if it was THEIR idea to go to Afghanistan.

When did you leftie socialists stop caring about humanity????

You hypocrites - the country (along with Darfur) was controlled by terrorists. They would torture and kill their own citizens. Women have absolutely zero rights. When did you stop caring about the injustices of our world?

War is no good - but in instances like Afghanistan and Darfur - we must provide support.

Secondly, what is done is done. We leave now and who knows what will happen to the country. They deserve our help.

Way to go Harper!!!

I disagree - Stephen Harper could cure cancer and you commies would somehow turn around a take about corporate greed.

Stephen Harper's conservative base supports this notion. Even bleeding Liberals (i.e. Igatieff) agree.

You left-wingers haven't supported a single move Harper has made - nor Gordon Campbell - even after he gets all gov't contracts signed on time - even with labour peace...

Many 50% of Canadians support the mission and this is not Iraq. I am willing to send our brave troops in anywhere, anytime to end the oppression in our developing world. What happens out there is not right.

As for the Canadian military - these are brave and educated people. It is not like the American GI's who are comprised of many highschool farm kids that wanted their tuition paid for. They are committed - trust me - and they all believe in their purpose.

Again, this is not some big American oil grab.

"War is no good".

War used to be hell, now it's just "no good" !

If GWB were allowed a 3rd term, would "War be ok"?

I guess that sums it up. There is no consistent policy or principle of when war is justified or neccessary, or not justified.

I always enjoy the comments from the troops as recorded in newspapers and TV, especially the senior oficers. "Great to be here, we are in for the long haul and we are helping to rebuild the country.etc" The first thing you learn in the military is never publically complain about anything if you intend to get promoted.Thge politicians have stuck them in a war that has been going on for many hundreds of years. They may be doing some reconstruction work which is good, but mostly they are killing people, many who may or may not actually be Taliban. And they are handing over people to the locals who may or may not be shipping them tothe US authorities.Recruitment and retention in the force is in the toilet, so let's see how many extra reservists will be shipped as regulal force folks find them on their second, third, or fourth rotation. I spent over 22 years in the military so have some ideas of how the average service person feels about a shooting war they can't win. Go ask the Russians

ZZZZZ, Hmm what was that, sounds like a damm coyote got into the sheep again, anything new in this thread, hmmm, nope same babbling as before, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

LOL. Beware the man or woman, especially Neocon, who says, "Trust me."

The principle that needs to be respected, by an independant, and I agree with Grumpy "neutral" Canada, concerned about its own independance and non-interference in our own internal affairs, is that of "Non-Inteference In The Internal Affairs of Other Countries."

People have to resolve their own internal conflicts and problems, as painful a process as that is sometimes. Certainly US citizens would want that for themselves, as should we, are we wise.

There is a complex internal dynamic driving the conflict in Darfur, with the latest primary element being the internal interference in Darfur, driving the latest greed behind the entire conflict, after a long history of relatively peaceful co-existance within Darfur, for example, is the presence of foreign corporate oil companies and the corruption processes that travel along hand in hand with that.

The call for intervention in Darfur is just one more piece in the complex global grab of US and British imperialism for oil and Empire.

by Enver Masud

The situation in Darfur is tragic, but it is not genocide - oil may be the real target of those seeking military intervention.

According to Alex de Waal, the "world authority" on Sudan,

Characterising the Darfur war as 'Arabs' versus 'Africans' obscures the reality. Darfur's Arabs are black, indigenous, African and Muslim - just like Darfur's non-Arabs . . . Until recently, Darfurians used the term 'Arab' in its ancient sense of 'bedouin'. These Arabic-speaking nomads are distinct from the inheritors of the Arab culture of the Nile and the Fertile Crescent.

'Arabism' in Darfur is a political ideology, recently imported, after Colonel Gadaffi nurtured dreams of an 'Arab belt' across Africa, and recruited Chadian Arabs, Darfurians and west African Tuaregs to spearhead his invasion of Chad in the 1980s. He failed, but the legacy of arms, militia organisation and Arab supremacist ideology lives on. (The Observer, July 25, 2004)

Begin your study with this article here, for example, if you are not already familiar with this matter of Darfur:

http://www.twf.org/News/Y2004/0807-Darfur.html

The fact is, like the entire Middle East conflict and that evolving in Darfur, contrary to the apologetics for imperialism Capitalism would spoon fed us, it is "...some big American oil grab."

And more of course, because it includes a push by US imperialism for global hegemony as part of that as well.

The peoples of the Middle East, Darfur, Chad and within Canada, all need to be left alone to resolve their own conflicts without external interfence from other outside interests, in pursuit of their own dreams of Empire and treasure. That doesn't mean it is going to be pretty, but neither was the US Civil War, or its war for independance from the old British Empire. Shit happens, and people need to be left to resolve their affairs for themselves.

But don't trust me. Figure it out for yourself. The evidence is out there.

Here is a link that discusses those "related" costs.

http://soapbox22.blogspot.com/2006/05/spin-cycle-polaris-and-cp-news.html

By the way coyote, when you say oil grab, you better include the word China.

Even without our interference the Afghanis are not being left alone to solve their own problems. Their problems are exacerbated by efforts by Pakistani religious schools that export jihadists to support ethnic Pashtuns in their attempt to control Afghanistan. Afghanistan was also used by foreigners setting up jihadist and Al-Qaeda training camps. I do not believe that withdrawal from Afghanistan will take us off of A-Q's target list -- our weakness will encourage them to greater efforts.

You made more sense when you were asleep, Colin. :-)

Though China, like most states, is certainly not an entire innocent, by any stretch, I am not actually immediately aware of a place on the globe being occupied by Chinese troops as part of what might even be remotely described as "an oil grab."

They are out there in the "free market" however, making deals and paying with hard Yankee dollars-, which we would all be happy if that was just what US Imperialism doing.

You obviously need more rest, Colin. You are just rambling on about nonsense again. (You do actually make some sense when you are well rested-, on very rare occassions.)

"Their problems are exacerbated by efforts by Pakistani religious schools that export jihadists to support ethnic Pashtuns in their attempt to control Afghanistan. Afghanistan was also used by foreigners setting up jihadist and Al-Qaeda training camps..." Steve P.

I am not anywhere near certain that this is any more interfence in the internal affairs of another country actually, than say US fundamentalist groups who are active on "conversion missions" in Canada, or the Church of Romes direction of those religious affairs in this country. That is a quite separate and distinct thing, nowhere near equatable except in the fenered Neocon/ pro-US imperialism mind.

And those Jihadist and Al Quada camps of which your speak were first CIA created by the US to be directed against the Russians. That this strategy has now backfired is a consequence of a Middle East region wide war being sponsored by US and other Western Imperialist lackey states, like Canada, which has as it was forwarned, resulted in a region wide Arab response to a foreign invasion of their entire region.

You are pathetically reaching for a rationale to explain away US Empire behaviours my friend, for which there is none save corporate capitalist greed. It is necessary that you at least be honest and not attempt to naively manipulate us.

And even if I accepted you were right, at any level, which I do not, it changes not one jit the fact that the prinsiple of non-interference of all states in the internal affairs of other states is the only avenue through which we will ever secure, at least, a relative and secure peace. If we accept, on the contrary, that all states should feel free to interfere in the internal affairs of everyone else, we do as you do, open the road to self serving imperialist intrusions and unimaginable chaos that is never ending. (Including the mass illegal immigration flows to "safe" parts of the world which said process has already set in motion, and you right wing nuts in the US and here are both having so much trouble accepting and dealing with.)

You should joing Colin in a good long nap.

That should be the "fevered" Neocon mind, of course. :-)

And apologies for a number of other typos. More care next time.

I see some of you have failed to notice that Canada is already Conquered. Softwood deal that sells out. Eatons gone the Bay gone all our big forest companies most of the big companies are American. Yes we are a U.S. colony. But we are not being told how bad it is.

Coyote, I defer to your expertise and long experience on rambling on.

China is currently projecting it’s soft power options for now, while it modernizes it’s military. China is already in the Sudan and many other places in the world, they are able to take the long view as the leaders there don’t require a popular election every 4-5 years. They have it seems a two pronged strategy on oil. One is to secure current and futures supplies for their domestic market. Two is to be able to control or influence suppliers in able to project their international policies and goals. They have identified the major weakness of the US is a dependency on foreign oil, if china can control the supply, they can contest the US without a military conflict which they know they are not likely to win. China also does not care or even pretend to care about human rights or environmental records of the countries they are dealing with. While you guys are screaming at the US, the Chinese will quietly slip in and hold the strings. Look at how well they played the Liberals and you will notice that they offer great incentives to any country that is willing to no longer recognize Taiwan.

Coyote - where is your sense of morality???

Just because a group of people sets up borders around a plot of land, and terrorizes its own citizens doesn't make it right....

In China, they filter Yahoo! and Google search results. They don't understand the concept of freedom of speech. They have spies in Canada following Chinese exiles. When you do speak out - remember tiananmen square???

So, China controls and dictates to 1/4 of the worlds population - but they don't do it other countries. If Coyote were in China, he'd have been executed a long time ago.

Now that being said - I believe China is doing a very good job of transitioning from a communist to capitalist state. You can't do it overnight, and while there has been corruption, they are progressing faster than the Russians.

My point is that these bleeing heart Liberals are very hypocritical and they are oblivious to human rights and conditions throughout the world. They have been spoiled by the fruits of our culture...

In Iran, they are about to pass legislation that requires jews and christians to identify themselves with a patch, much like Nazi Germany. They have threatened to wipe Israel off the map and the PM believes that the holocost never happened - that it was a conspiracy.

Coyote believes that we should let them be, let this hate evolve, let them build nuclear weapons - their hate for Western Culture and Coyote's state of mind runs so deep....one day they will try to attack Europe or America or Canada....Bin Laden proved it....imagine if he had access to a nuke.

What Coyote doesn't understand is that these people don't care about the USA's foreign policy. They hate Western Civilization - they think our women are immoral and they are terrified that our world may influence theirs.

As far as I am concerned, Bush should roll right through Iraq and into Iran...

These people don't hate Bush - they hate Britney Spears and the Liberal pop culture...

That is what they are afraid of....they are afraid of a bunch of Coyote's - not George Bush.

If you cared a whit for honesty, you would be more careful with the of words like "fascist" and "nazi" to refer to Canadian conservatives (or anyone remotely to the right of you, meaning pretty well everybody).
Your "fascists" don't control the streets with stormtrooper thugs, they don't subscribe to an ethnic purity campaign, they didn't seize power in a putsch after lack of parliamentary success, etc etc.

Instead of crying wolf, I guess it is crying Coyote.

Though, Colin is at least right to a degree, regarding the Sudan, for China does hold a large oil concession in, I believe Southern Darfur.

I am not aware of a large scale Chinese troop occupation of the country, but no doubt, it is the presence of Chinese oil interests in Sudan, driving the US and British desire to create a pretext for their occupation of Darfur. All of which but only serves to strengthen my point in any case, that it is imperialist interference on any pretext in the affairs of other states that is driving the current global drift towards world war-, with the main imperial protagonists emerging to be US and British Imperialism on the one side against Russian and Chinese resource interests in the Middle East and Africa, but also including the Northern 'stan countries, formerly part of the old USSR.

In this explosive environment, US influence over Canadian economics and politics is acting to draw us into this extremely dangerous world situation-, from which we only have any hope of extricating ourselves if we move away from the US Empire-, and focus on our own "national" economic development, within our own territory.
(Though solidarity with Latin America, and their long suppressed desire for liberation from US imperialist domination, may also serve our own particular "national interest".)

Stand too close to the source of the fire, you cannot then feign surprise if you get burned.

An interest perspective in a very good piece above, Murdock. Indeed.

And here we have Capitalism's concept of "morality" at work. Presumably he is looking forward to new territories to conquer, and doesn't see all the corpses of men, women and children lying in his Grand US Empire Army's wake behind him.

Demonize your enemies and FOLLOW ME to capitalist glory and profits.

One sick puppy, this dude.

More like China will use it's UN veto to ensure a regime friendly to it remains in Sudan regardless of the human cost, but then it's ok because it's not the evil US empire, just the mysterious not so nice Chinese empire. No chinese troops? why bother when the locals will do the killing for you.

Thanks, Murray Dobbin.

The war is here now also... within our own borders. Harper is re-defining the meaning of Canada, the intrinsically-held values of this country. Hell, "re-defining" is way too nice, he's obliterating the intrinsic values of this country.

This is an undeclared war on our own country...all conveniently quite media-hush-hush...and oh-so-civilized, even quite parliamentary I'm sure they'd argue. Deftly done so as not to awake the sleeping countrymen and women that they are about to betray in these opening manouevres.

Harper's latest little tyrant's dance over the Afghanistan mission...his goose-stepping over Parliament... the level of arrogance he displays under mere minority rule should make his intentions obvious to the nth degree... complete assimilation of Canada into/and with the war-mongering desires of that insatiable Muse of his...that cold-hearted, ruthless imperialist bitch... Amerika... over which he fawns.

(And according to the Flanagan/Calgary crew... assimilation for First Nations as well... in order to more easily facilitate Canada's fusion with the US...you know, to free this impending liaison of messy complications... like land claims and human rights.)

Time to develop our own war plan... past time, I would think, since every step Harper takes is a well-calculated step towards his goal of majority government nirvana - the dismantling and the ultimate demise of Canada through corporate assimilation.

His forcing of the Afghanistan mission vote stealthily brought out divisions in the Liberal party...only a fool would believe that was not by design...especially with a Liberal leadership race off in the wings.

And so does our own legislative raid scandal hold the potential to be used for Harper's own benefit... and for the benefit of those whose interests he serves. We should definitely forge on to expose the corruption... but we should be prepared to foil Harper's attempt to gain from it. The enemy is the same both provincially and federally. There is no love of country here...in fact, the very opposite... only self-interested opportunity-seeking and betrayal. So we should be prepared...because these rodents scurry back and forth under all guises of political banners.

Please, BC Mary, do not interpret this in any way as my suggesting that the investigation into the legislative raid is not of utmost significance and of highest priority. It is. It involves the very core on which our democratic system is based, our voting rights, our freedoms and the sovereignty of this country.

Instead what I am trying to say is that this is a war that will have to be fought on many fronts...basically because the enemy is now inside the gates...with every political and government structure becoming a virtual hiding place for its soldiers.

Lynn:

Puff, puff, give.

His forcing of the Afghanistan mission vote stealthily brought out divisions in the Liberal party...only a fool would believe that was not by design...especially with a Liberal leadership race off in the wings. Lynn

And how does this lefty perspective square with Jack Layton's call to send Canadian troops to Darfur?

Here's a link to the morons office .

Hey,Capitalism. If you want to be taken seriously then lay off the name calling .
Left wing wacko's and communists .Your recent favourites .
Harper is a brainless twit who is destroying Canada and its peace loving freedoms .
Glad you voted for him 'caause that tells me you are not intelligent .
Fact: Two out of three Canadians voted for left leaning parties .
Get over yourself .

Yea, well China may not be out for an oil grab but what about Tibet ?
They are definitely an occupying force in a land of total peace .
Ever heard of the Dalai Lama ?

hannibal -

you are talking about coyote who is blind to anything that doesn't fit his narrow ideological mindset.

sorry for the insults - its been a rough week on the stock market!

Damn fine, Lynn. The enemy is inside the gates. They are here in the persons of such as Kapitalism and noleftnut.

And I agree, Hannibal. China is no good Samaritan on the road to Damascus either. We, Canadians, are in world of evil, of which the US Empire is but the main and driving one, spawned by an increasingly evil socio-economic order called capitalism, working within and without our borders, as Lynn helps make clear.

But my personal concern, and I suggest should be that of our Canadian nation, is that danger which is closest to me, is already doing the greatest harm to me and my interests, and is of the most extreme and greatest immediate danger. And that is not China.

Our Neoconazis here are but attempting to divert our attention with their left hand, whilst they assist our enemy with their right. It is in their traitorous, Quisling, US Empire Loyalist nature.

And we will have to deal with them, sooner or later.

Hey Hannibal, wasn't that Jack Layton propping up the Liberals when they decided to send Canadian troops to Afghanistan? Whose Freedoms are you talking about?

Well Coyote
I suspect that you have the skills to do some damage, but I am afraid the “we” that you use to refer to number of the people here will look something like “F troop” stumbling behind you.

I had to laugh at the Liberals complaining about the CPC pushing this through, payback is a b*tch!

Layton whining about Afghanistan, yelling lets go to Dafur and when that gets stinky, he be yelling bring them home. Layton does not give a dam about anyone in Afghanistan or Dafur, just interested in GTA votes.

If you make a commitment to go overseas like we did in Afghanistan or even Dafur, you have a moral obligation to stick it out for at least 10 years. It’s going to take that long to show if it is working.

The reason there are so few “traditional peacekeepers” is because they are so few places to put them. What has passed as “peacekeeping” in the 90’s was anything but. Today’s lesson

http://www.balkanpeace.org/wcs/wct/wctu/wctc003.shtml

http://www.canadianptsd.com/killing%20fields%20of%20the%20medak%20pocket.html

"The best trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist"
I become more and more convinced of the fact every day that he does exist as two of his minions are George and Stephen and a lesser(slightly)evil Tony .
Our troops have been sold a bill of goods .
Even Alexander the Great had real problems conquering Afghanistan and he eventually gave up and left .
Ask the Russians how difficult a country it is to occupy ?
Their religion is everything to them . No matter how badly they mis-interpret the Koran .
Opium poppies are only a part of the problem.
What will replace it ? Carrots,cabbages rutabaga's,flowers ?
I don't think so .
Afghanistan has been the number one supplier for generations . Eradicating it is a dream of the drug warriors .
Nope our troops are naieve in the extreme if they believe that democracy will thrive on the brown plains of Afghanistan .
We can support them all we want it will change nothing in the end .

Hannibal - you still haven't connected the dots regarding Jack Layton's involvement in sending our troops to Afghanistan, or his call to send them to Darfur. Are the minions only on the right side of the political spectrum?

Seems the National Post's story about Iran making Jews and Christians wear badges, was BS. I think the Post needs some fact checkers:

http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,19196947%255E1702,00.html

I am surprised the people on the right who post here support the mission in Afganistan, rather then say the Afganis are "welfare bums" getting a free ride!

Of course they are shy to talk about "coporate welfare bums" on this site too!

Wait until the next person in Afganistan wants to swithch religions from muslim to christian (many still want the man's head cut off!).

Colin:

"If you make a commitment to go overseas like we did in Afghanistan or even Dafur, you have a moral obligation to stick it out for at least 10 years. It’s going to take that long to show if it is working."

When the discussion originally took place were they speaking of a 10 year commitment?

Jack Layton is a fool for advocating sending troops to Darfur. He, as that Party and all the others of current so-called Canadian capitalist democracy, plays again, as they do time and again so adeptly, into the hands of the Neocons and the US Empire.

There is want of a backbone throughout the current state of the nation and its politics-, coming out of all the status quo parties.

You Neocons are suddenly so incensed about "morality". We would like to see as much evidence of that on our Native reservations, in our growing poor neighbourhoods, our absence of adequate childcare availability for working women, and in concern for the declining incomes of our workers and their families, and for our imploding social infrastructure-, for which it seems, if it doesn't involve serving Amerikkka in a foreign war, there is never enough money.

There are immoral hypocrites here, no doubt. Only they are here toadying after the US Empire and its rampage of violence and greed around the globe, slaughtering innocents, and having no concern for its domination and manipulations over their own country.

Hypocrites and traitors to the nation, clearly they are.

Though I 'fess here, we likely are an F Troop looking crew of social activists and patriots, and that has to change. (Though the majority of Canadians again and again evidence their oppositon to Harpers sending troops to assist the Amerikkkans in their war against the world, in poll after poll.) But I'd stand here on this side of current events within the nation and the world anyday, over standing there betraying my people and nation with the likes of your US Empire bootlicking crew.

We are a ragtag band, perhaps. But thee be a fat, well fed lot of traitors.

And we say, "sorry" to all the rotting corpses of the killed and tortured of every land the Amerikkkans and we touch thereafter presumably, when the policy is found to not have worked.

Worked at what? Conquest, oil and Empire?

Fuk off, Colin. This is one of your more pathetic days, in a long line of them.

The left doesn't have a monopoly on moral reasoning. I think most on the right and left agree that your list of concerns are serious indeed. The difference lies not in whether one side thinks there is a moral issue -- it is what policies to pursue to best address the issues. I think there is consensus on the goal, but difference on the best means to meet the goal.

" Jewish MP denies Iran badge plan
From correspondents in Tehran
20may06

IRAN'S only Jewish MP strongly denied reports in a Canadian newspaper overnight that Iran may force non-Muslims to wear coloured badges in public so they can be identified.

"This report is a complete fabrication and is totally false," Maurice Motammed said in Tehran. "It is a lie, and the people who invented it wanted to make political gain" by doing so."

For you Capitalism, and you other neoconazi fabritators. The Sunday Times says you spread lies.

Are we surprised?

Coyote prefers demonizing opponents & knocking down straw men for the benefit of those who already agree with him than actually debating something on its merits.

If he couldn't use the words "neoconazi", "bootlick", or "lickspittle", his posts would be mercifully shorter.

I don't think they square. Jack still labours under the notion that Canada can remain a peacekeeper in a world dominated by the power and oil "war" agenda of Amerikan imperialism. Amerika simply will not allow it in places where peacekeeping gets in the way of their sacred oil agenda. Canada, under the present interpretation of peace-keeping, just becomes a partner in crime, right alongside Amerika. Jack knows this... he just won't say it out loud. Sadly.

As Coyote notes, better that Canada should concentrate on its own sovereignty first, and defend that economically within our own borders...so that when Amerika falls... as it will... we will remain an independent country, strong and free in self-determination.... that can chart and enact our own vision of peace.

Canadian soldiers through no fault of their own, sadly and most tragically, are no longer peacekeepers... but instead have become keepers of the oil for Amerika. They keep the oil safe until it can be delivered into the right hands.

Is that what you raised your son or daughter to die for?

Nah, the original bill said something like eighteen months in total for'Enduring Freedom'
Who makes up these stupid names anyway ?
Now Harpo has us commited for three years .
How many will die ?
Couple hundred ?
It is not just Afghans we are fighting but freedom warriors from all over the middle east .
Pakistan is no friend to democracy either .
These people don't care if they die they want Paradise and their forty two virgins .
The insurgency has just begun .
Wait until the Taliban suss out what the Canadians are up to the death toll will rise exponentially .

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, I agree. How many times have we gone through this debate, a million. Let's put it this way, the left is not in power, thank God, they will never be in power, I don't know why the NDP doesn't merge with the Liberal Party. They never have and never will get any more than 20% support amongst Canadians.
Their useless, endless arguments against the War on Terrorism is downright dangerous. Do they want the world run by Islamist Fundamentalists ? It seems so.
The left is an out of step minority. No power, no influence outside of this site. The blind leading the blind.
Canadians are happy and proud of this Government, and the bleating left wing might as well pack it in.

"It think it boggles the mind that any regime on the face of the earth would want to do anything that could remind people of Nazi Germany," he added.
Says Adolph Eichman Harpo .

Get phuqued Clueless you Moron !

ROFLMAO. I dunno. You sound pretty worried about this inconsequential left, to me.

What goes around, comes around kiddies. I have the benefit of a long life to be patient and to know that.

The worm will turn. :-) Not by itself, but it will turn.

Now that's the end of my shift friends, brothers, sisters and comrades. It's Friday night. I've discovered a new classical music station on my radio-, from Carolina in the US. Excellent. (Nope. Don't have any problem listening to a US classical music station at all. You Neocons don't get, 'cause you don't want to. I like US citizens. I have quarrel with them only to the extent they really do need to get control of their aggressive imperialist State. Outside of that, I'll twist one and share a little herb with just about anyone of them. No Neocons. I've got some standards.)

And I think I hear a bottle of Forty Creek Barrel Select Canadian Whiskey calling my name from the liguor cabinet. :-)

Sounds like a great evening Coyote.Enjoy!

I'm assuming that since Stephen Harper hasn't cured cancer, you won't mind if I talk about his corporate greed for a moment. Look for directorships to be offered to him from defence contractors when he's out of office.

While your at it, take a good long look at the directorships Mulroney and Emerson have. They aren't the only ones... Try Peter Mackays dad. John Crosbie... remember him? Marc Lalonde? When your done finding out just how many have been on the take with directorships that get issued shares for a little compensation, don't you know, the future bribe that gets taxed so its all legal like.

Your numbers are dated. Last poll was 54% against and growing, out a week ago.

Its obvious that your knowledge on the history of U.S. foreign policy is sadly lacking. Anyone who knows their history knows that the U.S. has taken virtually any country that had something U.S. corporations and major shareholders wanted to own and couldn't, ie. governments (matters not what kind) who nationalize prized assets, to war, or coups.

And too, don't think for a moment that banks aren't behind the scenes with this throughout history. Fact: in 2002, Dick Cheney, former CEO of Haliburton, had 14 million shares worth 9 dollars a share. Since then, Haliburton is sitting around 85 $ a share. This makes shotgun Cheney a billionaire. Sad thing is, bozo's like yourself would think of him as "successful".

Bush senior and his Carlyle shares? Anyone who asks the old question "who benefits?" and does a little digging... geez, I wonder how many Canfor shares Emerson still owns... they got a 280 million dollar windfall... nice directorship he got from Teresen gas... geez, I wonder if it had anything to do with BC gas selling out...

I found this article to use overly provocative wording and making
overly broad claims lacking supportting evidence:

...a man who is infatuated with everything American and contemptuous of his own country...

This was by any international legal standard a totally illegal war, which could only have been justified if Afghanistan threatened the US. It is also an illegal occupation.

War and legality make uncomfortable companions. The current situation in Afghanistan falls under UN auspices. The ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) was established as part of the Bonn Conference.

There have a number of UN Security Resolutions (UNSR) regarding the
situation in Afghanistan. Resolution 1386 is the one that authorizes
the ISAF per Chapter 7 of the UN Charter:

http://daccess-ods.un.org/access.nsf/Get?Open&DS=S/RES/1386%20(2001)&Lang=E&Area=UNDOC

Since then there have been additional UNSR's extending the scope and duration for the ISAF.

I would like to ask the author of this article to provide some support for the claim that this is a totally illegal war. A suggestted starting place would
be to compare and contrast this with Canada's military actions in Serbia/Kosovo.

There are legitimate issues regarding Canada's involvement in Afghanistan that should be dealt with in more depth but this article doesn't do the job.

See that now the Shrub has everything he wanted from Harpo he has been dis-invited to the White House .
Bush scores an insane lumber deal,gets the moron to sign onto another 2,years of this horrible adventure gets him to tear up the Kyoto agreement.Yup,our PM is sharp as a tack.
I wish they would stop telling people they have a mandate.
Two out of three Canadians voted against the twit.
How is that a mandate.
They are operating the weakest minority in Canaddian history .
Let him thriw his weight around for now.
It will rebound and slap his stupid face .
Sixty seven per cent of Canadians oppose the Afgahn incursion .

lynn wrote:

you used this phrase twice in your opening comentary.

please will you define what these intrinsically-held values are?

I have yet to meet anyone that can a) do this in any satisfactory way or b) have anyone else agree with their definitions.

Other than we, Candians, are either "NICE" or "NOT AMERICANS". I will not accept those as the definition of your intrinsically-held values.

So, lynn, what are they?

Steve P wrote:

regarding my comparison to Gaul being unto Canada as Rome is unto USA.

Gaul was its own 'place', though it was not called that by those whom lived there before the conquest came in 64bce. As others have pointed out, and I repeat, history is a song with rhyming verses, we are but following in a train of verse that last repeated about 2000 years ago...

you say that Gaul was a conquered province of Rome, I agree - in a later time than I was referring to. Just as the Helvetii became the excuse for conquest in the past so will some 'tribe' here in Canada. Perhaps the 'conquest' is already in progress, you and I may not be able to see it clearly yet.

I think Coyote and others would say that it, the conquest, is done.

In the end I think you are wrong and that the dream of B. Franklin is still alive, though it has a new name...

Coyote surprises me:

amazing Coyote, you, at the same time, want the government to be brought down - AND - espouse to be loyal to the nation?

tell me, do you offer prayers for the salvation of the Queen and her representative the GG every night also?

Enjoyed reading your fine piece above, The brain. All those neo-cons who just want to be directors... and not one good movie to show for it. :-)

rotlin,
Unlike its NATO counterpart called the International Security Assistance Force, ISAF, Enduring Freedom’s never been explicitly sanctioned by the United Nations. The majority of Canadian forces over in Afghanistan are there as part of Bush's Enduring Freedom.

I agree...it's obviously a neo-con thesaurus he's using ;-)...though it makes you wonder... if he thinks that's a mandate... what would he ever do with a real one....uhhh...let's not go there....

rotlin wrote:

agreed that before the post-9/11 actions of the USA there were a number of outstanding issues before the UN. Sadly the unilateral actions of the Bush whitehouse ended all discussion of those items. Why? They, the USA, killed the 'nation' that was in contravention of those UN resolutions. I ask why are such resolutions still on the books or even being discussed? This is a smoke-screen, better would be to ask why Canada is there, in Afghanistan, without a multi-lateral commitment FROM THE UN?

They are not because there will never be any such commitment so long as the USA is involved in any way that they could profit from the mission. The French, Germans, Soviets and Chineese are not stupid, they would never see fit to support such a thing.

Ultimately the UN is essentially as useful as the League of Nations was. It has lost its value since the first Gulf war in 1991. The last part of the collapse is yet to come, when another of the 'big 5' quits the table.

There was no need for the author to go into those old items as they are no longer relevant.

murdock
What are Canadian values?
Well, first of all, we see ourselves in relation to the land more than we see ourselves in relation to each other; the vastness of the country and its climate brought our fathers and grandfathers together in common enterprise against the weather, the climate and the distances between us. Although urbanization has lessened this sense of a small shared community united against the elements it is still present in the ideas of caring for each other and actually helping out in times of need. It is through institutions such as medicare and universal social programs that the community still comes together and shares some sense of the past. Our basic respectfulness for difference and diversity is what makes our urban agglomerations of different races and cultures as peaceable as any in the world. Even our common sense of guilt for the way we’ve treated the first nations of this continent is a value that most Canadians share.

We are less selfish and self-centered than our American neighbours, less gregarious and arrogant than our British ancestors – we say we care about our fellow Canadians and, until we elected the current bunch in Ottawa, we generally behaved as though we actually did care.

We've always seen the importance of a government role in encouraging and promoting Canadian arts and culture; we believe in public service and sacrifice and are extremely uncomfortable with millionaires and their promises and lies and anyone who pretends to do something for nothing. We are suspicious of rich Americans and even more distrustful of our Canadian brothers and sisters who pretend that such usurpers are our friends too.

We'd rather not have an army, a navy and an air force and we'd like to believe that the ones we have aren't ever going to have to kill anybody. Were a non-violent people who adore the fastest and the most violent team sport in the world.

We're fair, honest and hopelessly naive about the future and we get really upset when anyone tells us that this country isn't worth saving and making sacrifices for. Our soldiers are very naive about believing the pretense that we can get other people to buy into these values in places like Afghanistan...but as a people we're not naive enough to believe the nonsense our current Prime Minister spews about why we're really over there, are we? What else explains the polls?

Stephen BUSH Harper might end up being a benefit to Canada in the same way that a dead virus helps innoculate the body politic against a more serious disease - the American disease of kill nature to make a buck and then lie about it.

My problem with Afghanistan is that it is a search and destroy mission and not a peace keeping mission and our troops are likely to get infected with the same disease that destroyed the Airborne Regiment. Let us call it the American War disease, this idea that it is great to kill bad guys and that you can kill your way to democracy.
I do not want an army that likes to kill people and that gets all loud mouthed about killing. When that happens you lose the professional aspect of an army, the self control and you might as well just hire mercenaries. We should focus on protecting the Arctic bioregion with other allies like Russia, Norway and the Pan Arctic people. The USA is not our friend, not our best ally and a terrible trading partner. We need to develop trading partners who are not bankrupt, who live up to their trade agreements and who operate in a multilateral way.

Harper is a very divisive PM who does not express the Canadian values of tolerance, rule by consensus and respect for other cultures.
Our population is an exact mirror of the world's population. We did not publish rascist cartoons against Islam and hide behind freedom of the press and our Canadian Muslim community commented on this.

God knows we are not a perfect society but there are things we should be proud of. Tolerance is one of them, Stephen BUSH Harper is not.

What principle would a left wing nut fight for? I guess genocide is a nation’s internal affair to these wing nuts. When Israel is wiped off and another 6 million Jews exterminated the left will justify it as a response to Israeli oppression. We ignored Hitler the Iranians have made there intentions clear on the status of Israel. "All we have to do for evil to win is do nothing” Like it or not we are in a war for which civilization well go forward. I for one well not go quietly into the night. And thank God there are brave people willing to fight for a better life for all.

Well, I'm very sleepy and I should probably just say ditto to G West's exceptionally eloquent and perceptive piece but I will add just a few things.

First G West, thank you. It is largely because Canadians are so self-effacing and lacking in self-centeredness, that we never really think a lot about ourselves and what we value, but no, Murdock that doesn't mean we don't care deeply about what we do value.

G West makes an important point about the land and our relationship to it. We even define ourselves in terms of our weather. This is a country of vast distances and yet that vastness has made us all the more inventive to connect...to join hands, to create linkages.... across great distances and great differences. Our national railway, our national broadcasting system, our national medicare system, our social infra-structure. We define ourselves in these terms as well. These are our creations... formed from the intrinsic values we hold dear...presently in great jeopardy...but a tribute to their strength and to their success, nonetheless, that they still exist.

We believe in taking care of one another as more important than the individualist stance that permeates American culture. There is a collective spirit in Canada that cannot be denied..that is tied to our sense of community and to our modesty...we cheer for the team...and are much more wary of the individual who stands out, who we perceive as a victim of the self-importance of fame. We are hesitant to crown our heroes and rightly so I think....we are notorious for keeping the egos of our famous and infamous in check. We don't like people who are too big for their gumboots...or Finance Ministers who wear Gucci shoes.

At the same time we have a very Canadian dislike of puritanism, especially religious puritanism... as evident in the Religious Right and Moral Majority's grip on the US... not to say elements of those don't reside here, indeed they are Harper's faithful.

That lack of puritanism is what made Trudeau's statement about the state staying out of the bedrooms of its citizens resound with everyone, crossing all party lines. He was not afraid to say it and Canadians, whether they liked him or not, responded by cheering bravo from all corners. We respectfully insist that that very personal freedom, that line in the sand never be traversed.

G West is quite right that our sometimes naivety does not extend to believing Harper's lies about the mission in Afghanistan. The mounting deaths of young Canadians will bind Canadians together against Harper in ways that the Calgary School never envisioned. He has completely mis-judged the Canadian public's depth of feeling over this issue....and as Harper attempts more and more to dismantle this country, and ruthlessly sacrifices the lives of young Canadians in doing so, watch Canadians begin to take the little dictator on...just watch us....

Really insightful piece, rob.

Nighty-night all.

I would also like to add to the eloquence of G.West's amd Lynn's well thought out pieces .
Canadians have a certain maturity that the US will never posess .
Look at the recent booing of our national symbol 'the flag' in San Jose'
We in kind cheered heartily for their flag at the very next game .
Our love of the best game ever invented,hockey, and how we as a nation get behind the last team standing in spite of our regionalism .
The are cheering just as loudly in Montreal as Prince Rupert for the Oilers .
That is another,very,big difference .
We are far and away a more mature,well balanced society and from this we reap benefits .
Harper and the Calgary school will soon become just a mirage a figment of our imaginations .
Harpo's days are numbered until we can put up a credible leader .
The nation is sick to death about hearing about Liberal corruption when it was beauracrats that did the damage .

"...amazing Coyote, you, at the same time, want the government to be brought down - AND - espouse to be loyal to the nation?" Murdock.

Which, in my opinion, is always where you come up a tad short as well, Murdock-, though I often admire some of your opinions. On this one we differ and proceed from a different point of view.

I am loyal to "the nation". Which we should be able to agree is not always necessarily the economic or political order, or the government of the State.

My view of "the nation" is firstly the interests and welfare of the people of my given land, and within that, primarily its working class citizenry against all ruling class elites.

Government, per se, may or may not fall within that. In this case it does not, but lies within the control of a ruling class that has demonstrated itself subservient, beholden and loyal, in fact, to the government and interests of a foreign power.

Clearly, we have some important social or class differences in how we perceive "the nation". To me it is more "people" and less "institutions". The latter are always, or should be subject to the will and interests of the former, and where these "governance institutions" do not or no longer coincide the need or interests of the people, in my view, are subject to change, modification or overthrow-, depending upon the particulars of the given situation.

But, you are some wrong, in that I highly value in fact some of the experience and struggle, especially class struggle of working men and women, that has gone into what passes for current capitalist suitable democracy. It is better than an outright dictatorship. But it is a work, again in my view, that is quite incomplete, in its "State" or political manifestation which much excludes opportunities for working class participation, but especially in the need to apply the principles of democracy to the ownership, management and overall strategic governance of the economic base of society.

So my view is in fact "somewhat" more nuanced and complex than you choose to give it credit, sir.

Even this is a somewhat simplistic address of your "criticisms" of my world view here, which I certainly respect, but that serves in a nutshell.

I do indeed consider myself a "revolutionary", but perhaps not quite in the so simplistic way you may view that concept, perhaps proceeding as you may from a past time, other places and situations.

Murdock,

As a further aside, I suggest you may be a victim of your own stereotypes.

Regards.

Coyote

lynn,

very good, I can accept self-effacing and modest as values to uphold.

Then you go into madness for 'big government' with support for national railway, our national broadcasting system, our national medicare system, our social infra-structure.

the 'national railway' (or dream as was put - nightmare is more accurate) has been co-opted from the start. It was used as a lever to 'convince' BC to join confederation, then the purpose was reversed, taking value away from the west and returning nothing.

The CBC heyday was 35 years ago, stop living in the past, like those who think Henderson's goal in Moscow somehow 'represents' Canada's values. The CBC now is a dead shill, because the party that it was shilling for is dead. When the Liberals rise, zombie-like, so will the CBC.

Then you use an often spoken term that makes absolutely no sense, social infra-structure.

What is that?

Transportation infrastructure are things like roads and bridges, internet infrastructure are things like telephone cable, sattelites and routers.

If you are talking about EI, or womens' centers, take a closer look. You have to 'qualify' for EI and the permitted funds are cut shorter every year (and they are no longer indexed to anything). Womens' shelters only operate on what they, the shelter operators, can raise themselves - locally. Forget the federal government, Mr. Dithers, ahhh, Martin did them in from the federal level by downloading to the provinces thru health budgets.

Then the really big lie, heathcare. It is not healthcare, but sickcare and it is not only two-tiered, but rather multi-tiered.

If these are your 'values' then you may keep them - elsewhere. I see many young (16-35 yr old) Canadians that are well aware of how mangled the 'institutions' are and are constantly frustrated at these things being put forward as the great works of the Canada.

When it comes to the current topic, in Afghanistan or not the narrowness of the vote clearly shows that we, Canada, are a divided people, which I consider to be a healthy sign. One that may show one 'value' that I think we really do have that I can agree on from your post.

My eldest son, when he was 4 once saw a little american flag, when asked if he knew what it was he said,
"It is what the Canadian flag looked like before it grew up."

I agree on our maturity, as a people.

With the continued 'graying' of the Canadian population, we may start to see more 'senility' than 'maturity'.

ok Coyote,

so you and Che will have a grand time.

get ready for nations to have more 'pairity' or similarity between them (as far as rates of pay and other benefits are concerned) and less redistribution within those nations. This means that for, formerly, 3rd world nations they will see an overal rise in thier incomes; since they are already used to large differences in the 'haves' over the 'have nots' there will be less social upheaval and conflict. In the western nations (europe and North America) this will mean a growing 'elite' (and I am not talking about government parasites) whom will have more than any others and this will be something very new for these cultures (at least in the last 50 generations). The increasing difference in incomes between these groups will start to grow very fast in the next decades, since this is unheard of in Canada the urge to re-distribute this wealth will become nasty. If it goes far enough those with the means to leave will, and those that remain shall be diminished for it.

In one sense I can agree with your statement, primarily its working class citizenry against all ruling class elites, in that the 'work' done should benefit those whom do that 'work' at least as well as those whom organize the 'work'. Also that creative 'work' should be rewarded solely to the creative mind that made the 'work'.

I completely disagree that the 'land' or boundaries set by human invention need to be respected, let alone set.

It is in this way that the disagreement over Canada's actions in Afghanistan comes from. The actions are non-sequitur, nothing new for nations as this has been going on since 1789.

We demand that others respect our boundaries and laws and customs, yet are willing to violate others boundaries, laws and customs whom offend us. Not only will this make others our enemies, but our friends will start to doubt us. For they can rightly ask,
"If they do that to 'them' will the do it to 'us'?"

Saying that this is an anomoly of the current Conservative government is wrong, since it was the Liberals that started us, Canada, into this mission.

The time we are heading towards needs a different view of nations, peoples and the relations between them. A view that has not been since before the French Revolution. Statesmanship of the future will depend less on martial skills and more on mercantile skills.

It is thru trade and fair exchange that places like Afghanistan will be won over, not the sword.

Yeh, murdock, don't let anything get in the way of your pet project. Still campaigning for 'governor of British Columbia' I see. Dream on. This is a real nation of real flesh and blood people who actually care for each other and who'll, god willing, never buy your phony selfish version of unreality. Go peddle your worthless wares somewhere else. You wouldn't know a real value if you encountered one in your cereal bowl. You're almost as big a misanthrope as Tax Cutter.

Get those kids of yours lined up and march them round the living room one more time. Discipline, murdock, discipline!

Have a nice long weekend!

Murdock:

You do realize that the american flag was built on war and revolution. Are you now saying that to be a patriot of a nation, we must go to war to "grow up"? If thats the case, I clearly don't understand your present view towards Coyote for being traitorous to want to get rid of the traitor we've got as a PM now.

The need to go on about "the intrinsic values of Canadians" was also a bit silly, as well as this last post on confusing a historical reference to Canadian history as a present day view, and then attacking it. You've put up some good arguements on this site, but not everything is, in legal terms, black and white.

Intrinsically held values suggests what it suggests, to anyone who knows what the word intrinsic actually means... A BLEND. And not just any blend, but a blend that is reliant on its components to function. You know, values like creating and participating in non-profit universal essential services so that Canadians have guaranteed (inclusive) equal access to help in our time of need, instead of the old for profit, exclusive "pay as you go" systems south of the border. Some revolution...

Nevertheless, silliness has a way of flushing out its counter. I thank you for that, as G's post as well as Lynn's was definitely worth the read regardless of its context.

GWest,

Sounds maybe like you know Murdock better than I do. I only know him from past encounters here.

And one contradictory, twisting in the wind dude he is. It is difficult to reconcile him, when as he does once in awhile, advances a seriously interesting analysis, and you actually are impressed enough to compliment him on it, and back comes this ramrod straight, flag pole up the ass, here to defend the class system and The Queen type.

Not that unusual in some, especially upper academic level working class (true-middle class) types, typically Liberal, from there on up through and across that class line into the ruling class. But uncommon enough though, within my class strata, that whenever one encounters it, it is a little jarring to discover the two quite separate "ideas" systems quite peacefully co-existing, hand in pocket, hand in pocket.

Though perhaps, for these "I did it their way" types, like I say, often found in higher academe, to have gotten to there, you have had to peacefully co-exist with more than one set of contradictory realities.

'twould fuk over your head, fer sure. :-)

You are too funny, sometimes, Coyote. (Cheeks are hurting, here) :-)

The saga continues. Lots of news articles about how great a job we are doing in country. Wonder why the latest polling shows support dropping on this new extension. A few days ago we hear that somebody want Canada to take over the whole operation, but with what? Will that mean the guys picked up as suspects will no longer end up in some secret US prison? And as someone mentioned earlier, should we exit, one hopes there are enough roads to drive out on as we have no up to date transports, we use US helicopters now,US gun ships to obliterate villages, US hospitals. The Hercs hauling stuff and now and again body bags are of mid 1960 vintage. For those who like to see us at war, get ready for tax increases to pay for the quagmire we sort of slipped sideways into.

Lynn / Murdock

Yes, there were a number of UNSRs regarding Afghanistan prior to Sep 11, 2001. But the relevant ones for the current situation were adopted afterwards:

UNSR 1386 was adopted by the Security Council on December 20, 2001.

UNSR 1659 was adopted by the Security Council on Feb 15, 2006.

A better link to the UNSRs than the one I posted earlier is:
http://www.un.org/documents/scres.htm

It only took a few minutes with google to look this up. A better article would have less name calling and more background details regarding the legality (or lack thereof) of Canada's involvement.

On my way out (again) I thought I'd pause to provide one more or less comprehensive link to the lie of the day (sort of the National Post's version of the Sun's sunshine girl apparently) from yesterday. You know the imaginary bit about the nasty Nazi overtones of the alleged program in Iran to require minority groups in that country to wear some form of 'identification'.

Anybody interested in following the genesis of that little debunked item (as introduced here yesterday I think, by a piece of bunkum called Capitalism/maybelle) could hardly do better than start here:
http://thestar.blogs.com/azerb/
and read the story headlined Shame, Shame, Shame.

I wonder if the politicians who jumped so rapidly on the "story" will be apologizing anytime soon?

We're going to see more and more of this kind of opportunistic crap in the days ahead as these phony excuses for patriots get their evil act together in the promotion of the ongoing saga of Pee Wee's big Afghanistan adventure.

And, before I leave the field to you Coyote and you too Lynn, I'll post just one more thing from another of those marvellous women I'd be pleased to follow into metaphorical battle any day - thank God for them all: (this is a bit long so I'll post it in two bits, with luck nothing shall intervene in the required 60 seconds imposed between posts)

Cindy Sheehan, the antiwar campaigning American mother whose son was killed in Iraq, has begged Canadians to welcome war resisters, just as we did during the Vietnam War. She says this with the grief and passion born of the fact that she begged Casey to go to Canada. She begged him to let her break his legs, anything but go to Iraq. He died five days after he arrived in Baghdad.

I should have written about this earlier, given that Monday, May 15, was International Conscientious Objectors' Day, but I missed the day, as one does. The calendar is clogged with such days, but important ones, like that one, were crowded out by such idiotic things as National Smile Month in Britain, in which citizens were urged to stop cleaning their teeth with screwdrivers. This explains Tony Blair's teeth.

We spend so much time skittering away on silly demands on our attention – Tooth Week, honestly – that we miss the important stuff. In defiance, I shall continue to remove plaque with my sewing scissors and shall belatedly mark International Conscientious Objectors' Day by reciting some history.

American veterans' protests recently prevented the placement of a statue in Nelson, B.C., honouring Vietnam draft dodgers, despite the fact that they have enhanced and graced this country. By all means, send us your thoughtful, your non-violent, your bravest best, I say to America.

But in Britain, the statue honouring conscientious objectors remains. It stands in Tavistock Square in London, close to the spot where a London bus was blown up last year by a suicide bomber ostensibly protesting the British and U.S. invasion of Iraq. Among the many ironies is that Tavistock Square was once the home of Virginia Woolf.

Her friends in the Bloomsbury Group were all conscientious objectors in the First World War and did farming work of a sort. They and the 6,000 other "conchies" in Britain would have made absurd soldiers anyway in that particularly absurd war. And on May 15, another memorial was unveiled in Cardiff in Wales, even as British soldiers were thrown out of the army in disgrace for refusing to serve in Iraq and one man, a doctor, was jailed.

The year 1916 was a particularly unpleasant time to be a conscientious objector and it seems as though we have moved full circle, forgetting history. It was the first time conscription had been imposed. My own grandfather was imprisoned for refusing to fight. He was a Scot and a very uncompromising sort.

By the time the Second World War rolled around, people were much more skeptical of that first unthinking, jingoistic madness that led them to pin the white feather of cowardice on men not in uniform.

and here's the balance:

While there is no draft for Iraq, Bush torments war resisters and deserters waiting in Canada for a Federal Court ruling on their status. They are not rich kids. They have no intricate strategies. Indeed, they volunteered for service – but not, they say, for Iraq. And if they are sent back, they will be jailed by a president who essentially did the same thing when he was young while working on being a full-time drunk.

Canada's Tory government follows in lockstep. Canadian soldiers go to a war zone with little or no public debate, but are pushed out of public view when they die, as a female soldier did this week. It seems as grotesque as the American way. U.S. veterans see their mental disorders misdiagnosed, their poisoning by the metals used in weaponry unacknowledged and their disability pensions dangled like a toy.

It's this contradictory attitude to soldiers that makes me think conscientious objectors and deserters should be honoured more than ever. If we can't decide how we feel about soldiers and their inconvenient habit of coming home coffined, then how can soldiers be expected to be wholehearted?

We in the West have been told so many political lies. We trust no one. Ambivalence is our watchword. A person who says, "No, I will not kill," is rare in these times, and thoroughly admirable.

I don't expect a favourable Canadian Federal Court ruling for young people trying to escape fighting an illegal undeclared war. Even the Americans aren't claiming that their soldiers are battling foreign "soldiers." No, those Iraqis and Afghans are "insurgents" or "Taliban." In Guantanamo, they are "illegal combatants." These words, like white paint, cover a multitude of sins. But the key point is this: Some people follow orders. Others, like my grandfather, are what the British call "Bolshie." They question orders. They don't like being told what to do. And they'll say no.

This last is a character trait I admire. I wish people said no more often. It strikes me as healthy. Just as I shall continue to avoid dentists, I shall honour the stubborn and the thoughtful. These war resisters? They're my type of human.

G.West,Lynn et.al.
This is an old republican trick from way back.
If the news is bad for the Government(?) then change the headline.
Remember when all those soldiers got blown to bits in Lebanon the next week they invaded Greneda .
Harpo needed the distraction to take the populations mind off of Afghanistan and the fact that his Gov. looks ,pretty,stupid attending the Bonn conference on climate change with the bunny Ambrose chairing it when they have declared they want to destroy Kyoto.
Gives ol' Harpo the chance to spout anti Nazi rhetoric as well. A win win for the neo-cons.

Source of artical the Irrational Post.Says it all .

One in five reported combat deaths in Iraq is a suicide .

It is interesting, Murdoch, out of the rather long line of quite noble values G West and I faithfully trotted out that you picked the most milquetoast ones of all...."self-effacing" and "modest". It speaks to your not very well hid dislike of being a Canadian....and your often stated dream of BC separating from what you consider to be a dysfunctional Canada.

Canada is not perfect but is far from dysfunctional, though the neo-cons residing here are doing a good job of bringing it down to their wretched level.

Which is the point I want to make about what you referred to as my madness over big government. That's the real irony... the left doesn't believe in big government...we believe in governance.

You don't think Harper's threat that he would extend the Afghanistan mission for a year even if Parliament voted against the extension was not big government?

You don't think the swooping up of Emerson into Harper's waiting open arms before Parliament had even sat was not big government?

You don't think that all those directorships that The brain mentioned for special services rendered was not big government of the biggest kind?

You don't think the closing off of access to information, the hefty bounty put on FOI requests, the endless legislative bills taking away human rights and freedoms, the selling off of BC resources (like BC Rail) as if the BC Liberals owned them themselves....what about the Campbell govrnament having the biggest cabinet in BC history, ensuring the end of the Human Rights Commissioner, good-bye Omsbudsman...well, I could be here for days...

NO, the above is government of the BIGGEST kind....it doesn't give a damn about actual people. People, the public system are all just in their way. Their big government stamp is over everything, (look at the civil liberties now lost in the US since Bush has been in office)...in BC our big Campbell government treads over everything, pricetags everything with the most thorough of hands, it smears the public system, and it denies all responsibility...and as we see with Big Daddy Harper it carries a big whip that all must obey....behave or else.

These are always the same guys who say they don't believe in big government....but they want to control everything...they are the ultimate control freaks. What we have in BC... what we have in Ottawa... is government of the BIGGEST kind.

Now governance is a different thing. Governance actually recognizes that there is a citizenry that must be served. So the nationalization of services I don't apologize for in the least...they may not always be perfect, (the CBC is not what it once was but what can you expect when Carole Taylor was responsible for refining the system of late)...as Campbell is now trying to do in similar attempts to refine our health system. Give Campbell a few more years and sadly your son will grow up in the kind of health system Tommy Douglas as a little boy grew up in...where if you didn't have the money for an operation you simply died. How's that for madness?

(contd)
Social-infrastructure?...you're forgetting we had numerous women's shelters in place in BC...they were all cut by Campbell, even the United Nations singled out the Campbell government and condemned it for failing to uphold its human rights obligations..for its harsh treatment of women and children. It's the neo-con governments of Campbell, Klein, Dithers, Harpo et al who are destroying the public system through their relentless privatization tampering...and then blaming the public system...as I said its a tribute to the public system that it has withstood so much.

By the way, I think that quality of maturity that hannibal aptly mentioned... and you agreed with is largely due to our strong social system...that created a less desperate society that had the luxury to grow up with a level of calm and certainty that each of us would survive the day...free from fear. Now that is the real meaning of luxury...and the opposite of madness.... but just try to convince our neo-con readers of that

Bush named the war in Iraq "Operation Freedom Iraq" but that name was not complete. It should have been "Operation Freedom Iraq whether it is ready for it or not". It also applies to Afghanistan.

When the Russians were fighting in Afghanistan, the U.S. gave the Taliban everything it needed to repel the invasion. Now the Taliban is the evil one - and Russia, China and probably the U.S. are selling arms to the Taliban. I suppose it all boils down to making money.

A recently published book called "The World is Flat" suggests that even present day wars are subject to corporate approval. Is that really what freedom is all about?

Excuse me for mentioning 'Environment', but that whole idea of saving the planet must be at the very bottom of the list. It's certainly at the bottom of Harper's list.

Gawd, I admit I sound soooooo left-wing but really I don't consider myself as such. I'm just a concerned inhabitant of this planet.

rotlin, fair enough... but I still think the clip you posted above while sanctioning the ISAF, and allowing it "closer operational synergy with Operation Enduring Freedom "...there is no actual evidence in the wording of the UN sanctioning Operation Enduring Freedom itself.

As I said the majority of Canadian forces over in Afghanistan are there as part of Bush's Operation Enduring Freedom.

Lynn,

You rock above, woman. Absolutely rock. :-)

(There's obviously been a fair amount of Murdocks stuff I haven't read. Maybe on my down times. Though way back somewhere I do seem to recall this guy advancing a BC separatist position. Eh?)

thanks, Coyote. :-)

I've gotta get away from this computer for awhile. There's a hammock swaying in the wind that looks pretty tempting right now...find my book, some iced tea and I'm off...talk about luxury...;-)

Jack's, welcome to the "soooooo left-wing club"...now, you know I'm just teasing you. :-)

Excellent post, Lynn.
You've pretty much summed it up. They call it smaller government to smear the truth of it. And when they get caught in their lies, deny, deny, deny and distract. Most people are too busy to follow the levels of corruption, ideologically and fiscally, but this war mongering by the Cons will be their undoing in my view.

For those who missed it, last week, Harper initiates a surprise vote after a mere day in parliment on whether or not a two year extension should be applied. He later announces that he will sign off on a two year extention contract regardless of the outcome of the vote, or the call to an election. This ramrod approach to leading our country to war will not only boost and guarantee military spending for defense contractors, it will destroy Canada's chances of spending what it used to use its military for. PEACE KEEPING.

Today, what used to be more than a billion donated to UN peace keeping and having us within the top ten peacekeepers in the world in terms of funds and military support, has led us to 50th place with 213 mil spent on peace keeping roles last year. Quite a switch from peace to war, with the budget ballooning to, as Murray Dobbin points out and aptly so, fight a war against rebels that could very well be the good guys instead of the bad.

Meanwhile, while those who aren't in the know are trying to find out the truth in this sordid, distorted, U.S. led, propaganda mess, Canadians are now going to walk point and take the first shot for Americans instead. And, as our countrymen and women fall in a war highly unjustified and over big business not getting its way in foreign lands, Harper and Co. get promised directorships from defence and oil Corps for their hand to "spread the case for democracy", or for those who aren't up to speed with U.S. foriegn policies, go to war or establish coups (like they did with Harper in our own country) until there is a change in government that allows free markets to open up the grand scheme of "owning" middle east resources outright... just as they have here in Canada and in this case, for Canada's own military and creation of new markets to own us through privatization of ESSENTIAL SERVICES.

Just think for a moment, neocons, about what the U.S. empires next choices really are! They are losing the tech war with asia. There are 10 researchers in Asia to each American working on tech, other than bio which is in its own right, highly corrupted by greed. The U.S. manufacturing industry has lost 3 million jobs since 2000 and they aint comin' back. Where else do you go, but the credit card and COMMODITIES?

If the U.S. owns the majority of raw resources in the world, they believe they can still be the number one economical power... until south america nationalizes its own assets and unites under an umbrella government, that is... and until Africa becomes more progessive and begins to do the same... or until the next U.S. recession which is 2 to 3 years away. When the U.S. currency drops by 20% or more over the next 3 years internationally, true protectionalism will set in. And what for? People just don't get it. There are very visible leaders in this country and within the whitehouse that are CORRUPT! How many politicians would make war over a couple of billion plus pie, spread out between them? And which corps can afford to chip in and pay? Oil? Defence? Construction? All of them? Any and all that stand to make a buck, of course. In the end, its all about the money and the paper trail is there in the markets, for anyone who cares to look.

Fact: The real estate bubble, combined with rising interest rates and inflation, twinned with U.S. currency drops and continued trade deficits, can only lead to one thing with a flatlining U.S. population. RECESSION. When this happens, BUSH and Co. will get their due, but not before they've become billionaires in the process... at everyone elses expense.

To those of you who are so anxious to send our sons and daughters to die in Afghanistan. If you are so brave and virtuous in your desire to defend our nation from the Islamic hordes, then why don't you form your own volunteer brigades to march against the murderous infidels. A sort of reverse International Brigade a la Spanish Civil War. I'm sure you all could sacrifice some of your stock market investments to finance such a noble cause. Think of the self satisfaction you would attain by actually putting yourselves in the line of fire. Most surely the zeal which you exhibit in your online rhetoric would translate into battlefield heroism and be enough to smite the barbarous Jihadists. But I suspect such an adventure will not be forthcoming. It's always easier to cloak the whole endeavor in nationalistic fervour and to volunteer the offspring of others to do your dirty work. Cowards all of you!

And one last thing. People who want to become independent from the rest of Canada refuse to realize that by doing so, they risk later joining, or being forced to join the U.S., much for the same reasons outlined above. There are no guarantee's that any independent governments of the future won't be corrupt and sell us out for the exact same reasons, in exactly the same way.

Talk of independence will always be an ongoing thing in Alta, for example, because there are resources there that they want to own outright. Fools. To try it outright, is to risk war with U.S. in ways that can't be stopped.

Just look at the history of U.S. foreign policy, and anyone who cares to look, will know why its so true. The best chance we have in Canada is to stick to the adage, "Together we stand, divided we fall",
protect what we have left to call our own, and to get rid of the corrupt politicians we now have, with ideology to gain back some of what we have lost with a change in power south of the border. Until then...

Its not exactly what Harper has in mind in balkanizing this country. His latest hypocritical moves? Concerning his opinion on Ralph Klein stepping down and Manning replacing him, "I don't get involved in provincial politics". A month later, he's in Ontario meeting the premier for the first time for 45 minutes behind closed doors after 3 months of being in power, their first meet finally, and a half hour later, crosses the street and speaks on behalf of the Con leader running to replace Ontario's current one and endorses and hails him as "the next nation builder".

Sure was interesting about what he had to say with his rush to ram through 2 more years of Afganistan commitment. His memorable quote concerning the outcome? "Democracy has spoken". Quite democratic it is, telling the country he would sign off regardless of the outcome of the vote. What a hypocrite.

Having spent a number of months in Liberia attempting to deliver "Humanitarian Aid", I had many opportunities to listen to the "locals" attitude to aid and intervention.

Aid: "We need so much that we will accept it on almost any terms" and "It is embarrassing
To need your help."

Military Intervention: Make no mistake: To the individual on the ground the aircraft or armoured vehicle firing at him or her is the Enemy be it U.N. sponsored or Canadian.

I still feel that "good intentions" are important and effective. I can beleive that many Canadian Troops have those in Afganistan.

But there are serious questions about the "Good" intentions of politics which have placed the troops there.

As many comentors have pointed out above: Afganis have a perfect record for sending invaders home in "Black" boxes or not at all.

Just imagine well armed but slightly different skin coloured troops grinding up the Coquilhalla with overpowering air support. You too might just take that tattered book you never understood in English 90 by Albert Camus "Resistance, Rebellion, and Death", a large bag of Lawn Gro-Rite and some Diesel down to meet them.

lynn misunderstands again:

Absolutely it is big government, big time. I did not vote for these Conformer fools, nor would I ever. A larger consideration is the way the LIEberals have bloated governance over the past 30 years, to the point of being ready to handle 'cradle to grave' supervision of every aspect of a persons' life.

Stop lumping me in with the Conservatives, I am not a supporter of their agenda either.

Sure it is. It is for the electors to decide to buy the crap Ottawa is selling (so-called democracy) or not. Since the 'sheeple' in Canada are still well cowed I expect more of the same from Ottawa's power elites.

No. In this case even small governance can be tricked into going thru these sort of motions In fact small states face the very real prospect of either co-operating with merchants and business people or having doors to venture capital slammed in their face.

Big government in this case creates something like the CBC, or the Post Office, or and Investment Bank, then staffs the boards of these organizations with political appointees who may have no background in the 'business' at all. They have fat bonuses and salaries to supplement their gold-plated pension plans because - they were 'in' big government. Who pays for them? Thee and me.

doggone, well said!:

yes, I imagine that I would join those in the resistance to such an obvious physical presence.

Now Coyote will tell you that such a thing is already here.

I say that the changes in the nature of the planets' economics combined with encryption will make such a massive military effort worthless. As the real value that is to be 'captured' by such forces will vanish in an instant and travel to some other place or places at the speed of light.

And I'd join in active resistance to the kind of traitorous behavior you represent murdock. Your denial of the positive role of dedicated and professional civil servants and teachers and your feverish desire to claw back any tax expenditures you with your objectivist philosophy don't approve of. There is no virtue in selfishness, just selfishness.

No thank you.

I have more faith and trust in my fellow women and men to ever give a self-server like you a chance to ruin this great country more than the corporate grab asses already have.

I'm off my writing edge today, but I'm enjoying just slipping in here every once in awhile to read all you guys 'n gals.

Some really good writing and analyses going on here todfay from everyone, though I might argue a tad with Murdock. And a pleasure it is just ro read y'all.

Went to the farmer's market this morning, made some Scottish baps (a kind of white bun popular in Scotland, with a nice crisp outside and all soft 'n squishy on the inside), and hung a screen door to keep out the bugs that so freak Mrs. Coyote. She'll drive across town just to kill any creepy, crawly-, and I love insect critters. So I had to save them from stumbling into this mad woman's space.

I'll make bread tomorrow morning, to free up the rest of the week. I want to prepare for a three day trip or so into some grizz country, with my camera gear. (This is supposed to be good country for cariboo and wolves as well. I hope, hope, hope.) So I've gotta do a little suckholing. (Ehhh. A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. A happy woman makes for a happy man. :-)

Anyway, back to this Forty Creek Whiskey. And there's Dvorak's, New World Symphony just starting up here on the radio. :-)

Love 'n peace friends, brothers, sisters and comrades.

I concur, G.

And who paid for Exxon's 400 million dollar retirement package? THEE AND ME. And trust me, Exxons service to the world isn't considered essential in my book. Much less the lesser of two evils, civil servants are, than the for profit corporate CEO's, major shareholders and yes men ass kissers who'll drive up the cost with our ESSENTIAL SERVICES as they have with insurance and anything else privatized.

And what happens to these services in a recession? You know, when corps don't declare profits in ESSENTIAL SERVICES like the penal system, the courts, enforcement, Canada post, CBC, wheatboard, healthcare, education and any other service the government provides because its ESSENTIAL? Well, they lay off and services are crippled or stop, of course. And lets get rid of unions while were at it. Who can pay those contract wages in tough times... They don't provide anything essential. Who needs labor to be organized? Paying them less is so much more... efficient. Y'know, good for business.

Murdock, as much as I like some of your idealistic thinking, you couldn't be more wrong with just which entities should provide ESSENTIAL SERVICES! The provisions made by the state have its flaws and imperfections to be sure, as well as unions. And doesn't it make us so intelligent to bash it without solutions, other than "business can do it better" and can they? Take a good long look at the states and tell me that their "pay as you go" systems work with healthcare, or their insurance or anything else that should be considered as an essential service, because what sewers and stinks it up for them all is a complete lack of universality on anything, other than the markets themselves.

Oh, when it comes to money, to buy, own or sell, the system is incredibly inclusive and universal. You never hear a complaint about the most UNIVERSAL system of all! But when it comes down to who should foot the bill, or provide and enforce human standards... essential services are not not only becoming more exclusive and prestigious, mainly by proponents and thinkers like yourself... but made so because of just who is excluded... those who can't pay for it. What a wonderful country the U.S. is, for those who can afford it. Of course, the homeless are there by choice, not being born into it or anything, and what an eyesore it is to the rich... but they rarely see that side of town.

And just as Lynn has so aptly wrote, before Tommy Douglas, those who couldn't afford surgury or care simply died. If this is what you want us to go back to...

Well, trust the neo-cons of the US to always lead the way...VeriChip Corp has come out suggesting that the migrant workers from the south have a RFI microchip installed into each and every one of em. Keep track of them. Make damn sure they behave.....

http://www.spychips.com/press-releases/verichip-immigration.html

So many right wingnuts, so little time....

Let the lowjacking begin .

And its one two three what are we fighting for.Don't ask me I don't give a damn next stop is Kandahar it ain't far .
Be the first on your block to have your boy come home in a box.
Now one two three......
Viet Nam Rag
Country Joe and the Fish

A little levity to lighten things up a bit.

David Letterman

"The president of Iran sent President Bush an 18-page letter. Yeah, right, like he's going to read that."

"Lincoln had an IQ of 120. Bush's IQ is under four score and seven."

Jay Leno

"Did you know former president James Garfield could write Latin with one hand and Greek with the other at the same time?" Leno asked his audience. "That was Garfield. When President Bush heard about it, he said, `We had a talking cat for president?'"

Conan O'Brien

"The new issue of Rolling Stone magazine features a cover story about President Bush called `The Worst President in History.'

"President Bush said, `That's not fair. I'm also the worst president in math, English and geography.'"

"The White House says President Bush is in no hurry to fill the vacancy on the Supreme Court — which makes sense, since it took him four weeks to pick his favourite Teletubby."

uh-oh, hannibal/sleeps is back. watch out for flying profanities and obscene insults.

Coyote said: "I'll make bread tomorrow morning, to free up the rest of the week. I want to prepare for a three day trip or so into some grizz country, with my camera gear. (This is supposed to be good country for cariboo and wolves as well. I hope, hope, hope.)"

Right on Coyote... Have a great trip!!

I am off my writing edge too... I just got back from the W.Kootenays last night. Awesome walks in the back country, and I saw a few bears. Central Coast next month, should see some more bruins and maybe even a wolf or two... As you dude...I hope,I hope...ha.

Roll reversal, I need to "bake bread" for my hubby before this CC trip... A happy man, is a happy woman ;-D

Peace dude...

Hey hannibal, on the side dude...government trademarking "Spirit Bear"...That is an a "violent" act towards the FN's on the coast...!!

P'n L

RTB

Don't understand how they can do that RTB.
Any further info ?

hannibal, there is an article in the Vancouver Sun today called "B.C trademark on "Spirit Bear" riles consevationists". Wayne McCrory, credited for spear-heading the GBR initiative, is clearly disturbed by this underhanded governmental move as It infringes on the FN's rights to use the given name "Spirit Bear" to promote even a small economic potential for their people. Essentially, the FN's would have to buy the rights to sell even a stuffed white bear...pathetic really.

In saying this hannibal, this is how the Campbell government shows it's concern for the basic survial of these coastal communities. Oh well, I guess for an economy, there is always "fish farming", "logging", and "trophy hunting" available to them right...(tougue firmly placed inside of cheek...!!)

Peace dude...

RTB

I hear 'ya Bear. Totally unacceptable IMHO as well .
What of FN's traditions ?
I see a good case for a lawsuit against Clamholes
government(?)
Now they have a scrap on their hands as Terrace has already trademarked the name and uses the likeness for its official pin .
Two entities cannot trademark the same name and as Terrace has a prior claim I believe it will prevail in the courts .
The Spirit Bear, or kermode, is a rare white phase of the black bear. The province in February committed to preserving an addition 1.2 million hectares of the central and north B.C. coast, including Spirit Bear habitat.

Ian McAllister, of the Raincoast Conservation Society, said he's shocked at the province's decision.

"Only a few years ago they told us that the bear was just a plain old white black bear, then they said that they are actually found all over the world and not that special," he said. "Then they accused us of using furry cuddly animals to further our 'cause'. . . and now they are trade-marking the name.

"I suppose our government is going to trademark Great Bear Rainforest next."
Filthy hypocrites .

I don't know why someone doesn't take out a trademark on a small cheap plastic doll with glazed eyes, ruffled hair and Gordon Campbell's arrest data hanging from a sign around its neck.

That's a item that would sell all over the province and the profits could go to MADD or some such thing.

Fight fire with fire I always say.

Excellent piece by Dan Murphy (The Province, Sunday May 21, page A14)

And no one in the U.S. knows that Canada's there except its government.

meant to ad...

So if we're looking for brownie points - look again...

Jack's wrote:

and

From the populace of the USA? We, in Canada are lucky if we can find any US citizen that does not live within 100 miles of the 49th who even knows what or where Canada is. There are many in Oregon that think British Columbia is in south america.

If the brownie points are to come from the current occupant of the oval office, who cares? Since in less than a year he will be a total lame duck and not just the wooden one he is now.

We, in Canada, do not want the brownie points.

hannibal said: "Now they have a scrap on their hands as Terrace has already trademarked the name and uses the likeness for its official pin .
Two entities cannot trademark the same name and as Terrace has a prior claim I believe it will prevail in the courts".

...and what a scrap it will be. Neither should get "it" but if I was to say, I would NOT want the greedy, sticky, fingers of the "clamhole" government to recieve a dime from this.

As you said hannibal...Ian McAllister of the RCS said it well in summing up the governments historic attitude towards the "Spirit Bear". It was NOT until there was $$$$$ involved did the government acknowledge this unique, and elusive bear in the Central Coast area...ha,like they care...!! Neocon attitude...!!! The FN's have ALWAYS acknowledged the uniqueness of these animals and protected them as best as they could...man oh man...!!

G West said: "I don't know why someone doesn't take out a trademark on a small cheap plastic doll with glazed eyes, ruffled hair and Gordon Campbell's arrest data hanging from a sign around its neck".

Absolutely G, and I would be the first to invest. No, not for the $$, but simply for the principle... "...fire with fire..." Here here and Well said.

Peace dudes... Sorry to take us so off topic. Thanks to Murray Dobbin for the excellent article...!!

RTB

ROTFLMAO as always at G's suscinct(sp) analaysis of the situation .
Yea, I could probably sell a few of those dolls in Alberta as well .
Yup,Bear Money,money,money . Is all the morons care about.Couldn't care less about the bears only that they can exploit it somehow .
NIce of them to protect the habitat .
A young man from Alberta I believe was behind the initiative .Not sure. I'll look it up .
Peace to all

Herr Harper is certainly a piece of work but let's not forget that it was Millionaire Jack that brought him to power.

Yes, here is a link Bear.
Powerful stuff .

http://www.spiritbearyouth.org/powerofone.php?page_id=4

Right chu are hannibal...!! Thanks for the link. What an incredible human being this young man...!!

Peace man...

RTB

Working Man.
I email the NDP on a weekly basis to remind them that they are the whole reason the moron has the reins of power.For the moment .
Yea, smilin' Jack didn't do the country any great favours that is for sure .
Can't believe he is still whining and winging about Darfur .
Get over it Jackie . The 3, soldiers and a sling shot left in Canada are there to protect the homeland .

Yea, no kidding Bear . This kid has a hell of a future ahead of him.
My hat is defintely off to him .
Goes to show that parents that care make children and youth that care .

Why would you want to trademark the Spirit Bear?...This article is about Expo 86 and what it calls a bigger scandal than the FedLiberal Sponsorship scandal, involving what it calls theft of ten times the money of the Sponsorship scandal. It's reference to a 100 million dollar souvenir deal is very interesting. (about half way down the page).

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:cGyv1z_YKMQJ:montreal.indymedia.ca/twiki/bin/view/Ontario/BritishColumbiaHasItsOwnMuchWORSEVersion+%22expo+86%22+%22souvenirs%22+%22pattison%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7

sorry, about the highlighting...this is an easier to read version of the above article:

http://ontario.indymedia.ca/twiki/bin/view/Ontario/BritishColumbiaHasItsOwnMuchWORSEVersion

And he billed himself as 'working for a dollar a year'.

Murray Dobbin is almost correct, but not quite.

Recent world conflicts and indeed complex with tactics completely different than the tradional.

What most folks do not understand is that the process of 'Peace Keeping'
really does not exist. Peace Keeping relies on two opposing parties agreeing
to a ceasefire and that reinforced via a third party to keep them apart along with appropriate aid.

Not withstanding whether the US invasion of Iraq was right or wrong, the
type of overt violence in that nation is very different from the traditional
military organized advance to contact or defense configurations. Same holds
true for Afghanistan. In both cases, we see intervention by protagonists
based on religious zeal. This demands intervening forces to adopt a 'Peace
Keeping' format in an attempt to stabilize the situation.

The issues in both Iraq and Afghanistan really is a battle between moderate
and radical Islamic elements who are attempting to gain the upper hand. This
is peculiar as Islam, in theory is supposed to be a peaceful religion.
Indeed, Moslems individually are most peaceful and reasonable.

The issues in Africa are not too much different in that we see basically
armed gangs roaming around without any sense of allegiance to their country.
Even with peace agreements, violence soon restarts. This is tribalism at its
best. Traditional 'Peace Keeping' methodology just does not work well, and
quickly changes to 'Peace Making'. So how do you promote peace in an environment of

Senator Romeo Dallaire, LGen(ret'd) correctly summarized the issue in a
recent discussion as referenced by:

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=4c70afb9-233f-4d1c-8a40-6fef9df60d2c&k=28826

So how does the rest of the world respond to these issues. In the case of
Socialists, like the New Democrats of Canada, the approach is one of 'lets
just go in and dig wells and build houses. This approach is flawed and
certainly will not lead to a lasting peace. That approach could not even
work in the Bosnian issue.

However, at the same time, the major problem is the utter lack of direction
from the United Nations. Me thinks that if the United Nations were strong,
meaning that ALL nations respond to quell violence, then greater success
would be achieved in establishing peace. But the United Nations is weak,
takes too long to deal with issues, and is overly bureaucratic. This fact
has resulted in individual nations taking the responsibility on their own to
attempt to solve the issues.

None of the current solutions, individually will work without all of the
solutions melded together in one timely coordinated effort.

Peace Making Military action is unavoidable in the context current of world
violence, while at the same time the characteristics of Peace Keeping as
proposed by the NDP, must be included. But these initiatives must be over
arching with ALL of the worlds countries contributing.

The invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq may have been justified, but
clearly not executed in a fashion that creates the environment for long term
peace in those nations. No matter which side of the argument one is on, the
oppressive actions of the Saddam Hussein in Iraq, and that of the Taliban in
Afghanistan were contrary to world standards. There are several other
nations in equal turmoil, but little response other than meaningless words.

Conflict will always exist, but such must be resolved quickly before such
gets out of hand.

If the world truly wants peace, then we must make the United Nations much
more effective. We must all work together to do this, but that is a tall
order.

In Canada, the positions of the Conservatives, the Liberals and the NDP are
all essentially correct, but must be combined into one process, and merged with a neutral UN sponsored and supervised effort.

Too bad politics gets in the way.

What about Cypress ?

And the Mac Paps, who in the 1930's knew when to "make" peace, who had the guts to do the right thing, are rolling in their graves in disgust at what Dobbin proposes. They would spit on him and all who sympathise with his narrow minded perception.

Time for peacekeeping, for kowtwing to the pile of corruption that is the UN, is over.

Time to stand up and be counted, do what we believe is right.

Stay the course Mr. Harper. The ordinary people in Afghanistan need our help to rid the world of the Taliban and all their ilk.

What about Cyprus? Different type of conflict, different type of solution. ...and how long were Canadian troops there.

Same note on GAZA, except again, this appears to be a religious war. Northern Ireland much the same (although Canada only did some diplomatic stuff).

How about the Tamil Tigers, or the issues in Nepal, or in Papua New Guinea, etc.

Never the less, unless the world unites against violence, in a well timely and organized fashion, the current maddness will continue.

Logjam says:

So when are you signing up?

Very intereesting Lynn. Jimmy,Arrr,Pattison the Premiers own freebooting buccaneer .
That is insane .

Yea, stay the course Harpo and do the world a favour and stand in front of a moving Coyote .

Logjam, I just have to disagree with your approach.

While it seems the current maddness of violence in a number of nations, it takes one heck of a lot more elements to solve the issues.

No one nation, or a minority of nations, can solve the issues. World resolve is necessary.

I agree that the current United Nations is totally useless and seriously needs to be re-thought. Perhaps an organization built on diplomacy is NOT the solution. We need a new model for the International agency, fast.

The Conservatives and the Liberals before them and indeed the NDP have adopted positions, that in my are all correct, but must be melded into one cohesive Peace Making and Peace Keeping process. But, with the vacuum provided by a bumbling United Nations, there is zero World consensus apparent to effectively address either the violence, or parallel resulting issues.

While the interventions by a few nations might be correct, the execution has been bloody awful. You just cannot blast the hell out of the opposing force causing violence without supporting the economic welfare, infrastructure and other essentials of the given nation. Certainly the Iraq situation is a classic example of what might be right, but has gone terribly wrong.

All the elements of Peace Making and Peace Keeping, along with infusion of those elements in support of the common folk is an absolute.

I think Canadians were on the Cypress line for well over twenty years.I may be mistaken .

Right on lynn, man oh man, what a slime ball ... I mean, look at who the "leaders" of "ours" surround themselves with... G.Campbell, Vancouver Mayor Campbell, with Jimmy Pattison or Harpo and T.Flanagan.

It sound like if Jimmy Pattison is involved with the 2010 Olympic's there is trouble brewin'on the horizen... Heads up all.

Thank for the sight...

Peace lynn...

RTB

Yea, and as long as the UN is run by a pirate like Kofi Annan it will forever remain disfunctional .

sdgreen
What about Libya? Was Muammar Qaddafi much different from Saddam Hussein? There are other ways to deal with these situations and Libya is the proof of that statement.

I'd say there are other ways to resolve these issues and make things better for the people of the countries involved. There was absolutely no reason to start a pre-emptive way in Iraq. No evidence that Hussein wouldn't have eventually folded just the way Qaddafi did. If one-tenth of what's been blown up and wasted subsequently in Iraq had actually been spent on keeping the promises the US made to Afghanistan that country could have been turned around and Canada could have played an important part in it. Now, given what's gone on for the last three years in Iraq, and the deterioration that has befallen the countryside in Afghanistan when Bush and the congress failed to keep their promises it probably will take another 10 years to clean up the mess.

There is no excuse for not being clear-headed about who and what is actually responsible for the situation in the middle east which today is at least ten times less stable than it was five years ago.

We can certainly help, but we shouldn't be sacrificing Canadian lives in a quest for the scumbags that the Americans failed to deal with in their “invasion-lite” - after which they headed on over to punish Saddam Hussein and capture his imaginary weapons of mass destruction.

GWest

I agree. Clearly the actions of the United States of America, alone, should NOT have happened. Unfortunately it has!

What I am saying is that unless we have some sort of organization that can address these issues properly and in a timely fashion, the madness will continue.

Look at the Iranian issue. Here we have a nation that wants nuclear capability, doing so on its own for whatever purpose. We do not know whether for peaceful or agressive purposes.

I do not think anyone wants the proliferation of nuclear energy, unless for peaceful purposes.

Yet for months and months we find the United Nations playing the fiddle without any solutions. If we had some sort of strong organization this particular issue should be solved quickly.

I am not here to judge whether the situation in Iraq or Afghanistan or Bosnia were right or wrong, but we do need to find a solution to these conflicts in a fashion that is logical. The current method just does not work. You can't have one nation (USA) etc. to do this, it must be an effective world resolve to maintain peace.

But, sdgreen, we're there, as heavy and as hard and as pointed as we can manage (which isn't probably saying much) to cover for the Americans who want the hell out.

Remember when everybody was quoting that stupid line about the Pottery Barn's motto? Colin Powell was fond of it while he was still secretary of state. I'd like to see it brought out front and centre once more. And posted behind that idiot Harper and his equally moronic counterpart in Washington every time they step in front of a TV camera.

It has become my motto too. The Americans broke this. They wouldn't listen to the international community when it said go slow; they wouldn't listen to the United Nations when the inspectors said - give us a chance to keep looking for WMD, they KNEW it all. SO now, they, not us, should be cleaning up the spilt milk and the broken eggs. The last thing we should be doing is giving the US a mulligan here. As far as we do, they will never learn the lesson of their hubris and they'll probably do something equally, or even perhaps more stupid with Iran.

I don't know if you follow these things, but there are actually talks starting with N. Korea.

We need to put down our guns and pick up our shovels and our books. Help the Afghans all we can. But don’t bleed Canadian blood for American f**kups

Let the Americans fix this! I don’t want Canadian men and women dying for the delusions and arrogance of George Bush, period.

This is not about Afghans; it is all about Americans. They need to wear this, not us!.

GWest

While it may be a fine thing to adopt the notion that the Maricans started the problem and should fix same, I just do not think they will or more pointed can.

NATO has taken up the clarion call, which might be righteous, but is folly. Where is the United Nations? Where are a number of other nations that should be there? Where is the international resolve?

If NATO or Canada, or indeed the US just left either Afghanistan or Iraq, I think the chaos that would result would be incredible. Human suffering I think, could be significant.

So how do we now fix the issue. Canada likely should stay in Afghanistan, as should the other NATO contributers. But some over arching non-political (if that is possible) should coordinate the task. Further, it is absolutely essential that strong support be given, not only stopping the violence, but economically to rebuild that nation.

I just do not agree that we should stand by and do nothing. We must be included as part of the 'greater' solution. That is why I say that the platforms of all the Canadian political parties are correct in part but should be melded together. It is all very fine for to send troops, but what else are we doing?

But the major issue is the vacuum created by the failure of the United Nations in this and other conflicts.

So the bottomline is the question of how to fix the problem, now. That question has to be done internationally. At present we have everyone pointing fingers but zero solutions. Words at this point is not doing the deed, and surly the American word no longer means anything. George Bush is a has been, no doubt about it, even though there may have been some justification re the WTC issue. But even then, the twit went way further than he should have. At the same time the UN just sat around with only funny words from Kofi.

Canada, I like to believe is a noble nation and I think no matter what political party is in place, all understand that. We should do our thing as part of the International solution. That includes military operations.

But alas, no one is doing anything to establish the grand solution, in Canada, or elsewhere, it seems.

We have to get the politics out of the solution.

The US failure is the result of their relentless bent to meddle, tamper, manipulate and use other countries for their their own self-interests...to satiate their own greedy pursuits.

As Dobbin notes:

.

Afghanistan and Iraq and all the other countries targeted in the Project for a New American Century are not patients to be operated on without their consent at our whim...to have things done to them. Horrible things. When do they get a say in the supposed heroics of the West saving their soul in the name of democracy?

Amerika should not be propped up...nor should our young soldiers pay the price for the United States' arrogant defiance and greed. As G West writes "they need to wear this.". If they aren't made to do so they will continue their violent march onwards.

It is tragically harsh that young men and women in the US will bleed and die for the ruthlessness of their corrupt government...but that is how corruption is ended as well...when the losses become too great to bear...and the courage to resist and revolt is strengthened...and ends the pain. Let the American people themselves rise up against Bush and end one of the worst regimes in history...that is how it should be.

KitsCommuter:

I vote this THE BEST POST OF THE YEAR on Tyee!

Ah,that is because in Islamic parlance we are the infidels .

I don't know about this coalition of the 'willing'
How many nations have troops on the ground in Afghanistan eight or ten .
Seems to me if this were a righteous action there would be 100 or 139 nations on the ground .
And what happened to the billions of dollars pledged by the Western world after the Taliban were ousted .
Only a fraction of it showed up .
Problem is ,is that we are dealing with a bunch of uneducated rag-tag hillbillies who believe the Koran is everything no matter how badly they interpret the Koran .
The hearts and minds campaign has met with limited success .
To succeed they will have to take one village at a time and provide them with the neccessities of life as well as building schools and hospitals .
It will in all liklihood take a trillion dollars to trasform Afghanistan into a working country .
Who is willing to pay the price ?

Dobbin writes,

and,

The fact that this is American power politics playing out should not be a surprise to anyone. Not even our friendly conservative posters. Not even they can seriously claim that this (Afghanistan battle) is any more than one step to the eventual imposition of good ol' DEMOCRACY and, hopefully (but even LESS likely) Christianity over in that f'ed up land known variously as the Middle East, the Holy Land, the Promised Land, the OIL LAND. The ultimate end game IS security of energy. If y'all only come out and cough it up like:
"OK OK OK, I admit, there is nothing altruistic about what we're doing over there. It really all is just to pad my pocket. Ya got me ya buncho commie mutha fuquas." Just admit it and maybe we can all talk on an honest level.

Otherwise I beseech you cons to explain WHY we are killing innocent people (and yes, I realize, in a war all those so called innocent people might not be so innocent). But then, we create the guilty as much as they make themselves. I just see your vision of the world as a very scary, unforgiving cold place... and this seems to be your express goal: to create enemies to give yourself a reason to live. C'mon now.

sorry guys, I quoted and didn't comment on the cited info:

"says margolis..." any columnist who quotes another columnist... well I just don't know about that.

and though Harper might very well be a "sycophant" and a "budding war mongerer" those descriptions don't say anything. They don't bring home the goods. "War mongerer"? what is a "war mongerer"? What is a sycophant? These labels don't mean anything. Sure, us "lefties" out there give a hoo and a ha but I just don't know what those things ACTUALLY mean. I suggest keep to the politics and issues and lay of the names. We posters are better at name calling anyway....

Well, I've never heard 'em called hillbillies but I'll buy that. Most hillbillies are ignored and left alone, though. Somebody's got some serious burr up the ass of these billies. And they can neither be ignored or left alone... Or invited to a bush party and given free range on the sheep. First they take the sheep.... then they take my wife.

I think it's pretty callous, short-sighted and just flat out mistaken to call them "hillbillies"... yet another term that doesn't really direct us to anything except the fact that you couldn't come up with anything other than "hillbilles". A dis against us countryfolk everywhere and not even a dint against those other hillbilly mo'foes. git a grip.

by my last post I mean: SAY SOMETHING!!

The Canadian and other outsider participation in this Afghan adventure is nothing more than a bad joke that will cost a few dozen, or hundred Canadian and other foreign lives over the next few years and will accomplish nothing.

Ultimately, public opinion will force all the foreign troops out.

People who support this criminal idiocy should learn something about the military and military history before shouting their heads off about the "great help" we're providing to the Afghans. The whole thing is nothing more than a PR gimmick to divert attention from our collapsing economies, based on fraud. Like these Afghan and Iraqi wars.

The few thousand foreign troops in Afghanistan
are about the same, as if Vancouver had a police force of 25.

The Soviets had about 120,000 troops there in the mid '80s and were beaten out, with about 15,000 dead, just as the Americans were from Vietnam after throwing away the lives of 55,000 American kids and of 4 million Viets.

By the way, what were the Soviets, left, or right wing, for trying to force their system on other countries, as our politicians are doing now ?

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities there
jtothemfk.
But uneducated people who oppress and terrorize their women and children are by definition 'hillbillies'
Afghanistan has been invaded hundreds of times by some of the greatest invaders in history .Ever heard of a little fella called'Alexander the Great'
Yea, well he invaded and got his little ass kicked sideways and gave up on making Afghanistan a part of his glorious empire .
He walked out as has just about every other invader in past history has .
And if you read my post you totally misconstrued it .
What I said was that it will take a huge multi-national force with a deep pit of money to bring this country even close to democracy.
These people are living in ancient times and are 2 or 3 hundered years behind the rest of the developed world .
They can have all the 'Supreme councils' they want but what it boils down to is which war lord has the biggest and best equiped army .
By the very definition they live under anarchy.Period.
They are all human and have all the same quirks as everyone else .
No, the only answer is to have an occupying force there into perpetuity .

Ditto what Fiat Lux said .

Excellent post Fiat Lux...

I understand the Soviets were fighting against all of the Afghanistan warlords and the U.S. were only taking on the Taliban - hence the U.S. declared their war won. However we now know what a joke that is.

I agree that Afghanistan is 'uncontrollable'. Get the foreigners out and let them have their civil war among the warlords and see where the dust settles. Hell, communism is not the enemy anymore. I'm beginning to think that imposed democracy is.

Good piece Fait, and excellent points. Life is emerging to be more complex indeed than the stereotypes of the coldwar reality.

I think, myself, that there is a left and right political spectrum that one can speak of to explain differences in political ideas and systems, but it is not a given fixed point for all time and situations, and there can be and are misconceptions and errors in judgement that occur in our perceptions of this left and right business-, all the time in fact. Sometimes it is necessary that some considerable time pass even before a thing can be seen more dispassionately and objectively for what it really is.

Clearly Stalin and the USSR that emerged through him and the system that grew up around him had more in common with Fascism, than was even perhaps, or in all likelihood, the intentions of the early revolutionaries starting out in 1918 Russia. Certainly by the time that Soviet State had arrived in Afghanistan, it already had more in common with the old British Empire and the emerging US Empire, and their underpinning capitalist systems, than did the early socialists, anarchists and communists think starting out, by then in Stalins Gulags or dead in mass execution graves themselves, most of them. (For it is necessary to remember, that especially initially, most of the purges carried out by Stalin after Lenins death were directed against those revolutionary elements within the Communist Party itself, who had actually carried out the revolution. He feared them the most.)

(Google Stalin's purges, for those interested.)

So, in response to your question which is really a legitimate and astute observation, I would only say that life and politics, in my experience of it, is often more complex than it very often simplistically appears going in. And that what finally settled in the dust of the old USSR really had more in common with "the extreme right" than any more truly "transformative intent" of "the left" at that time.(Though Russia clearly was transformed, but from a feudal into a "kind of" capitalist state.)

It is often though that things turn out to be quite different than we first perceived them going in, not? For it often depends upon the complexitites of things, and the relationship of real and counterposing forces that act upon a thing and our intentions in the course of attempting even to create new or changed realities, especially social ones. And what it was thought would take a few years, winds up taking more than one lifetime even, in fact.

And like I say, in my experience with it anyway, while the reality of a left and right objectively exists at some level, they are not absolutely fixed points on a real line or for all time, but intellectual constructs we create to attempt to explain and understand class and other social ideas realities. And as such, are subject to the real vaguaries and manipulative behaviours of real human beings and events.

It is why when even we talk about the need to transform this society and its economic underpinning system, we need to be aware of the complex risks that walk hand in hand with that venture. All is not always precisely as it seems to our mind at any given moment. (Especially, but not only, when we are young.)

Which is why the principles of real "democracy" have to be central to it, as the ultimate check and balance on individual human excesses and greed. (Which is no absolute guarantee either, of course, but merely reduces the risks.) And I am not talking about this phony and narrowly partisan "democratic" notion that currently dominates, hauls us off to a foreign imperialist war with not even an aye or nay, and masks inequality, sexism and classism-, but a more complete democracy that functions at ALL levels of whatever social order finally emerges out of this period.

BC Mary:

You know what they say about Canada -- always ten years behind.
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096410522
South America embraced the free market in the 90's, and with the abject failure of that "religion", it is swinging left, to a more humanistic approach. Whether or not it will work is another question for another day. Suffice to say, it didn't work there. Now we have a PM who has (purportedly) embraced the free market philosophy, a decade after it's well-demonstrated failure down south (way south).

G west wrote:

Sorry, but talk about liberal propaganda. Canada took part in almost every major conflict in the 20th century as a combatant. In WWII, 1 out every 11 people were in uniform, the highest ratio of any western country. We also had the 3rd largest western navy, trained a huge number of the allied pilots and produced an excellent fighting army, plus supplied military hardware to most of our Allies. Canadians are not non-violent, they are at best slow to fight, but will fight hard when they do so. The reason why are troops did well as peacekeepers is that we had a relatively high education level throughout our ranks and the troops were well trained and gave a number of bloody noses to people that crossed them. The whole concept of “peace keeping” only came out in 1956, worked till about 1990, and with a few exceptions has failed to adapt to the new reality of non-state warfare.

Rob
The disease that affected the Airborne was the lack of leadership and constant rotation of career officers as the CO. The problems of discipline were well known before they went over, but nobody bothered to take responsibility for it. The lesson has been painfully learned.

G west
I to was surprised by the article, a further searching seems to indicate that the bill had been proposed as reported by the Post, but was stalled before approval, however the “Islamic dress code” part seems to moving ahead. However it is not popular and represents the clash between the ruling class and the average people who don’t identify with their vision.

As I mentioned before, my grandfather was a conscientious objector in WWI, the difference was that he served as a stretcher-bearer in the trenches and not working a farm.

Frankly I don’t find anything about these people that desert a volunteer army in a democracy honourable.

Brain
Funny, Canada could contribute to the Dafur mission, if it hadn’t been for the Liberals (with the NDP blessings) slicing and dicing the military for the last decade, they are reaping what they sowed.

Gee Coyote
Telling me to go and get laid, I never knew you cared….so touching, enjoy your drinking

Hannibal...

As far as I can figure, history does not support your statement that Alexander the Great had his ass kicked in Afghanistan.

By the middle of the 6th century BC the Persian Empire of the Achaemenid dynasty controlled the region of Aryana - which was Afghanistan's prior name. About 330 BC, Alexander the Great defeated the last Achaemenid ruler and made his way to the eastern limits of Aryana and beyond.
I may be wrong but....

Although, I admit that the country was used as an invasion route for many conquerors. Like China, it absorbed its invaders hence it has a wide range of differing ethnic groups.
And it does have significant oil reserves which I'm certain the U.S. is well aware of.

I'm just surprised that the U.N. let the U.S. talk it into this quagmire.

Colin,

I certainly wouldn't want to deny anyone the pleasure of getting laid, even yourself, how e'er much we disagree politically. Nothing better for a man-, or a woman, woman, for putting one on an even keel and in connection with the driving forces and rhythm of the universe. Which is why rock 'n roll and fuking go so well together. They tap into that elemental rhythm, the beat of the heart, and the blood pumping through our peckers and that driving rhythm of the cosmos.

It might even change your political perspective-, find the right woman to do it with. :-)

At other times, a good stiff drink can similarly usefully "connect" one-, in stimulating moderation. And it's legal. A joint too, though it's illegal. :-)

But of the two, getting laid is far the preferable-, especially for the anally retentive, and about the only course if you can't handle your liquor, as it seems the case with many a self-righteous, preachy, 12 step Neocon. :-)

Love 'n peace, brother.

grub:

Thanks grub. I'm truly humbled. Judging from the lack of response to my comments my arrow must have hit it's mark.

Oh I dunno, KitsCommuter, I think Ol' Colin here would be more than willing to head on over there and shoot some scumbags if the effort came to that. I hope to hell they don’t call themselves the Modern 'MacPaps' though, that’s an honourable name that ought not be besmirched.

As for your comment, Colin, I happen to know a lot of fellas who went overseas for that last big shindig in Europe. For the most part they're getting pretty long in the tooth....but they are, on average, the most peaceable fellows you'd ever like to meet. They did what they had to do and served their country bravely.

Most of them think this thing in Afghanistan is the most outrageous crap and while they feel strongly for their erstwhile companions in arms they have the utmost contempt for the politicians behind this latest boondoggle. And they sure as hell aren't Liberals, dude! And neither am I.

On that other little issue, the National Post is, as Coyote would put it, a f***ing disgrace.

Jack's thanks for that. Indeed modern Kandahar in Afghanistan was at one time Alexandria as were many other cities of the ancient world .
I was sure that I had read somewhere that Alexander had given up on Afghanistan in frustration .
I know he occupied the country but how he left is still unclear to me.
I know he was not enamored with the country.
Thanks

One thing about Alexander, a warrior nutcase as he was, that he stayed with his men when they retreated from India, across the Gedrosian desert, where they suffered the worst casualties from the heat, thirst and flood.

Today's commanders would don their fancy camouflage dresses; "Oh, general honey, you look divine! Who's your designer ? " and hop into their private jets to get the hell out of any danger, at the first sound of a distant rifle shot.

The problem with Afghanistan is that it is acountry that can not be occupied, even by the greatest powers. No roads and infantry on foot are dead ducks from snipers.

When the Germans invaded Russia in 1941, they maintained about 4 supply lines to the front, but the rest of the country was unoccupied, which, ultimately, cost them the war. Now the same goes on in Afghanistan, but generals are genrals and always hope for miracles.

Ed Deak,

Alexander suffered one of his most punishing defeats at the hands of the Sogdians led by their commander Spitamenes. This happened near the city of Samarkland in modern day Uzbekistan in 329 BC. Two thousand of his troops were wiped out when they were ambushed by Sogdian cavalry. Alexander eventually tamed the region but it was one of his most bitter campaigns and his victories were costly. He eventual brokered a truce by marrying a Bactrian girl by the name of Roxanne.

Hey, maybe George W could ditch the first lady and hook up with an Afghani girl. Think of all the body bags that could go to waste!

KitsCommuter

Better still, he could convert to Islam, keep Laura the librarian and pick up as many as three Afghani wives. After all, isn't he always saying, 'I'm a uniter, not a divider!' Then he'd really be doing something about the status of (a few) women in Afghanistan.

Seems to me Colin posted a while back that Islamic men are 'allowed' as many as four wives.

Thanks guys.This is really a great educational site .
LMAO at Fiats description .
But I guess that is my point is that Afghanistan has been conquered many times over the millenia but no one has ever stayed and the conquerers eventually suffer ignoble defeat .
Alex was a fascinating figure in history though.
Yea, lets marry the shrubbery off to a Pashtun girl . One that hasn't been horribly mutilated .
I thought that is why Alex left Aryana is because he couldn't control the mountain folk who would raid his outposts nightly and kill a bunch of his men. Sounds good to me .

Yea, that is fascinating.There is an area in Pakistan called Hunza where all the people are blue eyed and blond and are said to be descended from one of Alexander's Armies .

LOL. That sounds more like a Clinton initiative G West. But I don't think Hilly would ever have gone for it.

Yes the Hunza claim to be descendants of Alexander's armies and that could well be the case. They are said to be incredibly healthy and vibrant often living well past 100 years. It is thought that James Hilton's novel "Lost Horizon" was modeled after these people's Shangri-La existence.

Damn, I wish that part of the world wasn't so fuked up. I'd love to visit a place like that. I wonder if they hate our guts too?

KitsCommuter
Let's put it this way, if they didn't, a few more months of Rick Hillier will certainly do the trick.

I just came across a report from Al Jazeera that claims (on evidence from NGOs) that the women of Iraq feel they are much worse off now than before Saddam was deposed. Gotta run now, I'll try to post a link to it later.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10980

That's it.

G west
I also know a lot of veterans that support the mission there and people who have done a tour there that still support it. Our current and past military personal are as diverse as the country they represent.

You are correct that Muslim men are allowed to marry up to 4 wives at one time (Muhammad had 7 total), but only if they can properly support them. In fact Muhammad actually was trying to codify and protect women of the time, the story about his first wife is well worth reading about. Muhammad became a trader after marrying his wife who ran caravans and he was able to communicate with many different groups and it would seem that Islam has borrowed from Judaism, Christianity, animism (Most of the worship taking place in Mecca around the Kaaba predates Islam and was incorporated to ensure acceptance) and likely Buddhism and Hinduism (Egypt had a Buddhist temple at the time of Christ apparently)

Of course the above is not taught to the students of the madrasses and they receive a “reader digest” version that eliminates all of the complexities of the Koran, since it is taught in Arabic, the students are forced to learn about it in a 2nd language which although they can recite the words, do not have a strong knowledge of what is a complex and poetic language.Similar to how the RC Church only used Latin as a way to control access to the bible.
I gave up on taking Al Jazzera to seriously after I read the bio they had on Saddam, he was just a misunderstood individual that had to take the occasional strong measure to keep his people in line. I wished I saved it as it truly was a real piece of work and no longer accessible.

You were correct though that Saddam started out as a Nationalistic Secular, in fact most Arab nationalism was based on the National Socialists from Germany, however he was not slow to wrap himself in Islam when the need arose and Iraq was doing ok until about halfway through the Iran-Iraq war, which he basically bankrupted the country with. The “increased” woman’s rights came at a very high cost to everyone and no one was safe from periodic purges and the mass graves speak volumes.

Ed
So far most causalities are from IED’s and RPG rather than snipers, surprising as the Pastuns used be known as excellent shots, but I guess since they traded their SMLE’s for AK-47, marksmanship has withered. Plus many of the Taliban are not more famous hillsman of the past. Also a quick look at the maps and satellite photo’s will show that most of the populated areas follow the watercourses and the rest is very sparse and not an easy place to live for anyone.

Colin
Certainly sounds as if we've been making a lot of friends in the past 36 hours, eh!
WE need to get out now and let the Americans stew in their own juice.

I have no sympathy for Saddam, never have had.

The Al Jazeera article appears a lot more credible than that garbage the National Lie posted across its front page the other day, don't you think?

There were plenty of alternatives to the way the Americans proceeded in Iraq and if you're honest you know that and you should admit it.

No one can ever tell the Americans anything and it's high time they learned the true cost of their attitudes and their blindness.

We ought to have enough sense to get out and get out now.

But we won't, Pee Wee's Big adventure is going to be a huge black eye for this country too. I only hope it doesn't cost too many Canadian and Afghan lives. Today certainly doesn't bode well.

I hope the neo conmen have their adding machines connected because we're gonna pay a hell of a price in dollars too.

I'd be ashamed to wear the maple leaf if I were travelling abroud today....I never was before.

Colin,

The vast majority of ordinary, especially draftee soldiers, are nothing more than numbers and noise makers. Waste of their time.

I have seen calculations after WW2 that out of 30,000 rifle shots fired, only one hit anybody.
Now the situation is even worse with the automatic weapons, with the idiots pushing them over fences, firing away at nothing.

As regimental champion, one of 6 battalion staff snipers I had the first choice of sniper rifles when we went into action and have chosen one of 2 ordinary, but handmade 6 shot repeaters, while 4 others received 10 shot semi automatics.Never regretted it and would pick the same again.

The only thing that bugged me was that we snipers had to carry 140 cartridges and fired only a handful, the other Joes only had 80 and blasted away at any shadow. Plus, of course, machinegun belts and spare barrels, wrapped around our necks.

When I was helping out in the amputee hospital after the war, the vast majority have lost their legs and received other wounds to frostbites, mines, shrapnels, accidents.

I was wounded by a short range, small calibre mortarshell and never saw anybody getting hurt by the millions of submachinegun bullets fired at us by the Soviets. Falling branches from their firing were more dangerous than their bullets, albeit their snipers, with 10 shot semi automatics, were deadly.

The same seems to be happening in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. Rifle wounds were scarcer than hens teeth.

Of course, in Iraq the Marines seem to be doing very well with their rifles against women and children, by all accounts.

Ed Deak.

Hmmm. Sounds like this country. Only most of it huddled along a few mile strip along the border with the US. Says something about this country. :-)

Kits Commuter,

Once in awhile the Neoconazis will attempt to explain why they are here "getting rich", while our soldiers are over there bringing down airstrikes on the homes of civilians-, as happened today. Their verbal footwork when they do attempt an explanation is like watching ballroom dancing, and about as fancy dancy.

It's easy to support foreign wars when you don't actually have to fight it yourself, of course.

Must read material :
http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2005/11/29/HarperBush/

hannibal wrote:

The simple answer is no-one, and no-one needs to.

The disrespect paid to the peoples of the mountainous regions of Afghanistan for the past 50 years has led to the current situation.

A continued effusion of blood will not solve it.

The insanity that Canada alone (for I do not see any nations lining-up to join us if we 'take over' operations) somehow solving a puzzle that killed or wounded 10's of thousands of Soviets and Afghanis for 30 years must be apparent now. The problem is, like the Balkan missions, how to get out?

Premise: The commons vote goes against mission extension.
Solution: Harper mentioned it at the outset, the deployment of troops is a cabinet decision, alone. The cabinet, ultimately in the system Trudeau designed and Cretien perfected the PMO, have this call and the PM, of the day, Harper said plainly in his address to the commons that he was going ahead with one year more regardless of the debate and/or vote. Ultimately this entire debate and vote is another amateur theatrical for the masses in the Commons.

Premise: The vote goes really badly against the plan to extend and because PM Harper decides to extend anyway there are riots or other civil disobedience, that actually manages to apply enough pressure to convince the Government to back down and pull out.
Solution: 2 possibilities
a) get the heavy airlift to get out and have the ground support cover to manage it. The USA is 'too busy' in other theatres to loan the airlift so we have to 'rent' it elsewhere and the accompanying air-ground support. This is not cheap.
b) march out, somewhere to a coastline where the navy can come in to transport the troops out. This is a deadly option, as any of the ground force commanders will attest to. The Canadian troops are in a fox-hole, a very big one, about 20-25 km across, but still a fox-hole and once on the move protecting the column could be impossible. This may mean a massive loss of life.

We have gone in there without the correct tools nor the correct means for extraction, this will be very expensive to end, either in treasure or blood.

The question of willing to pay the price, seems to have been answered. At least the 'leadership' has proved willing...

Canadians don't need to be put into the category of piecnicks, by some kind of pacifist, feminist, liberal, eastern Canadian, French viewpoint, when we know that we have been warriors , important factors in key battles, that gave us the freedom we have to post on websites such as this.
Caledonia has surprised us, in that we are now deprived of our Charter rights to freedom of movement.
The road is ripped up ( Argyle RD. ) the power is out everywhere in the area. Damage to a local power station, and not related to the power tower now being used by the Indians to enforce #2 of their three roadblocks.
The locals are fed up, and are now getting to the point of defending themselves.
This conflict is not getting much press from MSM, but U would love to be a fly on the wall in Caledonia.

So IAMC, since you've obviously studied the situation in Caledonia intensively, what's your prescription?

As to media coverage, you must be reading Canwest papers - including the National Post - where they put their illustrated 'stories' about the legal situation in Iran on the front page.

Murdock the question was rhetorical .
I don't beleive we should be anywhere near Afghanistan . Period .
There is no way to bring peace and democracy to a country that takes such pride in killing .
Harpo stated that he would continue this insane adventure with or without approval from the House which is pure arrogance and hubris .
We will have to rent the Ukrainian Antonov's to extract our troops and mechanized units .
At a ,very,high cost .
Marching our troops through Pakistan to the sea is just madness and we would lose an untold number of men and women .
How can we as Canadian's get it through our Commander in Chiefs(PM) head that we do not want to be there .
Our days of peace keeping are over as no one will want a bunck of killer elites protecting them from anybody. Remember Somalia ?

Support for the mission in Afghanistan is at an all time high. Support for the Conservative Party in BC is at an all time high, up to 43% from 38%. Is it possible that many posting here are out of step with regular Canadians ?
I don't know who they are speaking for.

IAMC:

I would say they are speaking for themselves, especially since this is an anonymous posting site!

And I would say the same about your postings!

I'll bet that Chretien regrets putting us in Afghanistan. It did get us off the hook on joining Bush's folly in Iraq, but at what price?

Like the fake 911-Iraqi connection in the US invasion of Iraq, our humanitarian mission to Afghanistan is founded on a lie. Any positives for Afghanis that come out of the Canadian mission will be incidentals to our main purpose there - to support American political and economic objectives.

It is well documented that the US planned to invade Afghanistan prior to 911. That plan, initiated under the Clinton administration, aimed to tap the hydrocarbon resources of the southern 'stan' countries before China and Russia could gain access. This could only be achieved by way of pipelines built through a secure Afghanistan.

That, fellow Canadians, is why we are there. It is not the high and mighty mission we are led to believe, however much in need of assistance Afghanis may be. We are there to see those pipelines built - just another blood-for-oil charade, only this time we have Canadian blood in the mix. Mr. Harper is lying to us and the mainstream media are failing to call him out... very sad.

I first read of the US "plans for the stans" shortly after 911 in a piece by Gore Vidal in The Guardian. Last Tuesday, I heard it explained simply on ROBTV by a professor at the American Military University in West Virginia. It is all very much out in the open.

Why, then, are Canadians are so clued out on the real reasons for our mission in Afghanistan? Are all our journalists under full muzzle? Is Stephen Harper Satan? These are questions I would like to see answered, and soon.

Now I don't really know, not being Native, but given the dynamic growth and youthfulness of their populations, combined with the thefts of their lands and resources, and the apartheid system they have had to endure as a people, much reminiscent of Palestinians for example, along with deep poverty as the legacy of their relationship with this country, I think we can expect to see the emergence of a dynamic and aggressive Native Rights Movement in this country. Caledonia, as was the Mohawk revolt of some years back now, is just one of the red warning flags indicating what is coming down the pike. And they've actually been flying for awhile now around various particular "land and resource" issues.

We conversely, certainly the other two great national cultures in this country, both Anglo and Quebecois, are aging and in decline, maintained only by huge immigration numbers. Now, whether this latter element is enough to save us or not from the wrath of Native populations that is coming, I doubt very much.

And there are two main choices available to us in the way that we deal with this new emerging reality: One being of course the instinctive racist response of such as IAMClueless, or as I suggest, our need to make a serious attempt to understand the present dynamic and driving history behind Native demands, their will to survive independantly as a people, (not to allow themselves to be absorbed into either of the other two national mainstreams), and to resecure a major and vital place upon the land where they have a history as a people of literally many thousands of years.

Such wingnut extremists as IAMClueless can choose the course he outlines here, and live with the consequences and outcome of that. I will choose the latter course of attempting to right the errors and injustices of the past, working with Native Canadians rather than against them, and to forge the recognition of a third national stream within this country that rises out of its real history, as a partner with the other two, Anglo and Quebecois. Which means we are going to have to go back to those founding treaties we made with them and never, or too seldom honoured, concede and negotiate with Natives the right to their own territories and infrastructure systems, and their secure access and control over their own natural resource base.

Such as IAMClueless's racist responses is the path to a kind of genocidal conflict. What I suggest, is a path to the possibility of a secure, lasting and mutually respectful peace, creating a solidarity base between the major national elements of this "three nations in one country" reality we are in anyway. And which exists whether we choose to recognize it or not.

We will need to be smarter than the Euro/Anglo peoples of Caledonia have demonstrated thus far, along with the government and State apparati of Ontario. If we are not, the potential of permanent damage and a prolonged and brutal racial/national chauvanist conflict are there within the country, with the covetous eye of the US Empire there also in the wings, as the country fragments along racial and competing nationalist lines.

But insofar as our Native populations go, I think, we predominately Euro Centrics need to quickly wake up to the reality that the days are fast receding that Natives had to or will continue to behave like the compliant Uncle Tom's of the memory of most of us. They are ever more at population levels and a political level of understanding where they do not have to any longer, and are prepared to flex their new power possibilities. We can look for either the opportunity for a national renewal of all of us in that, or the Clueless/Caledonia Whites choice of racial and national chauvanist conflict.

Blah,blah,blah, blah .
Everytime the neo-cons get caught with their pants down they start quoting meaningless statistics(polls).
During the election all the pollsters with the exception of SES predicted a Con majority.
Didn't , quite, work out that way now did it ?
Support for the Afghan extension if you believe the numbers is at 44% not exactly a ringing endorsement .
The longer we stay on this insane adventure the lower the polls will go and now Harpo(the idiot) owns the whole magilla .
At the beginning when Chretien sent our troops there it was for a limited engagement while we built camp Julian etc.
Support will steadily erode from this point .
Support is highest in Alberta at 58% whick is indicative of their hillbilly mentality .

Not since the conscription crisis of 1944 has the country been so divided over war. Polls show that 55 per cent of Canadians now oppose keeping troops in Afghanistan. In Quebec, roughly three-quarters of those polled oppose the war.

Indeed a regrettable reality about this part of the country. A seedbed most nourishing to the Neocon kneejerk responses as well, of course.

Sheesh! Coyote I sure hope you don't think I am a neo-con.
Far,far ,far from it .

I'm not sure where that came from, but certainly not brother.

Neoconers walk with their knuckles dragging along the ground. 8-D

What the heck is a pike, anyway, that ominous things keep coming down? Do we have one in Canada?

Okay,Coyote my good man. I just misconstrued this.

Mary it can be a fish or a long pointed staff used in war fare .
Not sure which you are reffering to .

Okay,pike as in turn pike Mary.
Coming down the road,street ,boulevard .

Coyote
I doubt that comparing the Palestinians to the First Nations here is a good analogue.

Actually the population here in BC is changing and will not be “euro-centric” at which point the FN’s will be screwed because the political will to negotiate will not be there. But you are right about the upswing in native populations, I find the new generation that is coming up are likely to be quite dynamic and good for their people.

Other’s
Marching to the sea?? Someone must be recovering from a long weekend hangover. We did the “ignore Afghanistan” it didn’t work, as for the any oil and gas pipelines, they will be heading to China and India. Which is one of the reasons that India has been helping there

As for other nations also there, Germany, Turkey, France, Spain, Italy Netherlands, Romania, Italy, Austria and the United States. Even Russia has volunteered some.

Dobbin writes....

From Wikipedia (The Free Encyclopedia)- somewhat different interpretation.

Shortly afterward, on October 7, 2001 the United States, aided by the United Kingdom and supported by a coalition of other countries including the NATO alliance, initiated military actions, code named Operation Enduring Freedom, and bombed Taliban and Al Qaeda related camps[12][13]. On October 14 the Taliban openly counteroffered to hand Bin Laden over to a third country for trial, but only if the Taliban were given evidence of Bin Ladens involvement in 9/11[14]. The U.S. rejected this offer as well and continued with military operations.

On October 4, 2001 it is believed that the Taliban covertly offered to turn Bin Laden over to Pakistan for trial in an international tribunal that operated according to Islamic shar'ia law [10]. Pakistan is believed to have rejected the offer. On October 7, 2001, before the onset of military operations, the Taliban made an open offer to try Bin Laden in Afghanistan in an Islamic court[11]. This counteroffer was immediately rejected by the U.S. as insufficient.

Shortly afterward, on October 7, 2001 the United States, aided by the United Kingdom and supported by a coalition of other countries including the NATO alliance, initiated military actions, code named Operation Enduring Freedom, and bombed Taliban and Al Qaeda related camps[12][13]. On October 14 the Taliban openly counteroffered to hand Bin Laden over to a third country for trial, but only if the Taliban were given evidence of Bin Ladens involvement in 9/11[14]. The U.S. rejected this offer as well and continued with military operations.

The stated intent of military operations was to remove the Taliban from power because of the Taliban's refusal to hand over Osama bin Laden for his involvement in the September 11 attacks, and disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations[15]

Quote:
"Support is highest in Alberta at 58% whick is indicative of their hillbilly mentality ." hannibal.

Amen - Hannibal & Coyote!!!!

So what happens after February 2009? Another extension?

Rebuilding southern Afganistan while the U.S. bombs Taliban insurgents hiding in people's homes-its going to be tough on the Canadian mission!

G west
The source of the National Post story seems to be standing by his claims, should prove to be interesting:

PRESS RELEASE: AMIR TAHERI ADDRESSES QUERIES ABOUT DRESS CODE STORY
by Amir Taheri
Benador Associates
May 22, 2006
Regarding the dress code story it seems that my column was used as the basis for a number of reports that somehow jumped the gun.
As far as my article is concerned I stand by it.
The law has been passed by the Islamic Majlis and will now be submitted to the Council of Guardians. A committee has been appointed to work out the modalities of implementation.
Many ideas are being discussed with regard to implementation,
including special markers, known as zonnars, for followers of
Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism, the only faiths other than Islam that are recognized as such. The zonnar was in use throughout the Muslim world until the early 20th century and marked out the dhimmis, or protected religious minorities. ( In Iran it was formally abolished in 1908).
I have been informed of the ideas under discussion thanks to my
sources in Tehran, including three members of the Majlis who had tried to block the bill since it was first drafted in 2004.
I do not know which of these ideas or any will be eventually adopted. We will know once the committee appointed to discuss them presents its report, perhaps in September.

Interestingly, the Islamic Republic authorities refuse to issue an
official statement categorically rejecting the concept of dhimmitude and the need for marking out religious minorities.
I raised the issue not as a news story, because news of the new law was already several days old, but as an opinion column to alert the outside world to this most disturbing development.
Iranian author and journalist Amir Taheri is a member of Benador Associates.

This was the basis of the National Post article written by Chris Watte

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/19504

Yea, that's one helluva source !

Interesting point, about our country so divided over war. The Quebec statistic even more interesting because Harper is trying to build support there...it seems to me that a cohesive and activist peace movement across Canada could be the weapon of choice to dislodge Harper from any chance of gaining that majority status he so longs for.

I like the irony, anyway, of a peace movement being a lethal weapon against these Straussian neo-cons. ( Granted, some wars must be fought...just not the totally manufactured ones of the neo-cons).

Tying support for Stephen Harper and support for Canada's military effort in Afghanistan is pure demagoguery.Adding to that a few errors of fact on the relationships between the USA, Canada, and Afghanistan before and after, render this piece a failure either as polemic or intellectual discussion.

So many people speak from the 'heart', from the core of their personal ideology, on the issue of Afghanistan, it seems unlikely we will ever have a rational discourse on the matter.

There is a place for a reasoned discussion based on defensible facts about Canadiuan politics and Canada's role in Afghanistan. Not here, perhaps, but somewhere.

Blah,blah,blah,blah .

Suggest you keep looking DennisG .
We know what we know no matter what your opinion is .

There is a place for a reasoned discussion based on defensible facts about Canadiuan politics and Canada's role in Afghanistan. Not here, perhaps, but somewhere.

Colin
Did you not read the material posted here yesterday and the day before? This Amir Taheri was outed ages ago, get with the program. Would you like to see some more of what this crackpot believes? He's at the centre of a movement trying to get the US to start bombing Iran asap.

And the National Post is up to its neck in the same kind of lies and manipulation.

Yup, the Irrational Post scores with stupidity again .
Their editors are a freaking joke .
Did you read their anti-Kyoto drivel today cheering on the moron Harpo and comparing Oz to Canada.As if .
Oh,yea we're the same .

Hardy,har,har and they are led by a bigger moron than Harpo .

I like the irony, anyway, of a peace movement being a lethal weapon against these Straussian neo-cons. ( Granted, some wars must be fought...just not the totally manufactured ones of the neo-cons).

Absoulutely Lynn. I think the longer this action goes the more people will be protesting our involvement .
Agree it is deeply ironic that this could well be Harpo's achilles heel .
No way is he going to get a majority of seats in Quebec .
Boisclair has already warned him about being in Hapless's back pocket ovr Kyoto . Quebec very much is in favour of the accord .

I think he's definitely weak on the environment and also on First Nations issues. I notice Alberta is responsible for 224 million metric tonnes of atmospheric CO2 in 2005. More than any other province and nearly 1/3 of Canada's total emissions. I can't wait to see what dear Rona has up her sleeve on that file. Moreover, despite protestations to the contrary above, he's in trouble in Afghanistan too.

Maybe she'll come up with a recipe so we can all eat our C02 emmissions .
She is such a ding-a-ling .No wonder the hapless one put her in charge of the enviornment"Duh,enviornment what's an enviornment ?"
Well, she totally humiliated herself at Bonn from what I understand and she didn't make any friends.
Awwww! Poor Rona .
Now they are yapping about some Pacific program being promoted by Harpos dumber brother John Howard .
Take a hike 'ya stupid OZ .
Another shrub sycophant.
Jeez is there a central casting for morons somewhere that we don't know about ?

Lynn is right. If ever this country was in need of a peace movement it is now. As nasty as Vietnam was even, where Amerikkka raised its head for the second time, after Korea, to give us another demonstration of its Empire intentions, and though the casualties to here are still lower on both sides (except maybe more across the entire Middle East), this US Empire War against the entire people of the Middle East is even more brutally calloused and obvious in its aims, and strategically significant.

Amerikkka defeated here over this one, as it will sooner or later be, make no mistake, finishes it as a major world power in the aftermath that follows. Surely even Canada will be forced to abandon it. The failure of our own Neocon policy will be inescapable and obvious, as well as the economic dislocation if not outright collapse of the Great Amerikkkan Capitalism . And Israel too will not long follow thereafter, once they are entirely on their own against an Arab world that does not have to worry about the interventions, financial or military, of The US Empire. (For it, The Empire, will be home licking its wounds, suffering the economic consequences of all that lost treasure and blood, and living again with the shame. And of no mood or capability for a very long time, if ever, to come out and play empire building.)

This country, particularly "the left" and all the other major movements of "the people" need to begin to face up to what is coming as well, prepare and organize themselves now for that certain day. Hell, it certainly can't last another five years. They are barely hanging on now. For it will be then that the whole world, and even the prevailing world capitalist socio-economic order itself hits the wall, and entirely possibly suffers a major if not terminal, disaster.

Depending upon what steps are or are not taken now, or very soon, will determine whether that day, for us as a people and a country, will likewise be a huge policy and reality defeat, or but the beginning of a huge new opporunity.

I would prefer that it is another door opening as the one exiting this time closes. And with the right attitude and preparations, it can be precisely that, and an exciting time.

The struggle begins now, however.

Yea, that's Harpo alright a pure,unadulterated
demogouge .
Live with it .

Colin
Here is some more on Amir Taheri for you:

You really don't think the National Post knew what it was up to when it put that bilge on the front page?

Exactly. Both Canada declaring what it has always stood for ...as well as (re-)defining itself in light of lessons learned, and in a new way... in terms of new possibilities for the future.

With all the rampant pessimism of these times, of which I admit my share, I agree it's exciting to imagine a new door opening...challenging as the times ahead may be.

.

To say the least. ;-)

Quite the set of "qualifications" Mr. Taheri has.

In other words Taheri is the equivalant of Herr Goebbles . A master propagandist .
Nah, the Irriational Post would never stoop to puiblishing propaganda knowingly .

A major in the Canadian forces, Tod Strickland, has been contributing a column in our local rag. I attempted to get a realistic answer out of him as regards our country's reasons and goals for being there.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1998&dept_id=499599&newsid=16436982&PAG=461&rfi=9

his reasons are rehashed Bushisms eg:

"..Afghanistan does present a threat to Canada in that its lack of stability allows terrorists to train here.."

or:

"..decreasing the threat of global terrorism.."

or:

"..freedom of expression would in my own mind justify us being involved in Afghanistan.."

Gad. This guy's a career soldier. He claims to be "..a student undertaking my Master's in Middle Eastern History.." Obviously he has never considered the adage about being doomed to repeat it.

I know that the Canadian Forces computer firewall locks out certain websites if soldiers in Afghanistan want to access them...among which was, at least for a time, Antonia Zerbisias blog at the Toronto Star. I wonder if the Tyee is also one of those?

With views as narrow and ill-informed as you note above, tommymoore, one wouldn't be surprised.

Just a typical brain washed drone spouting the company line of Bush and Harpo.
Jeez why can't these guys think for themselves .
Oh, right they are trained not to think . I forgot .
As they march in lock-step to their doom .
Interesting that the village that the US bombed(killing at last count 16) is being blamed on Canada by several survivors .
That is what happens when you become identifiable to the masses .
We don't have any airplanes in Afghanistan but the average villager doesn't know that, all they see is the Maple Leaf shoulder patch .
And now the patch has become synonymous with pain and suffering.
Way to go Harpo !
These people will never trust any foreigner.Ever .
I think it is time for a mass rally at the Parliamnet buildings to show these goofs what is what .

Check out major dumbpkoff's latest offering:

"ASSIGNEMENT(sic) AFGHANISTAN" - here:

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1998&dept_id=346989&newsid=16654169&PAG=461&rfi=9

So let me get this straight - these soldiers skulk around wearing their night vision goggles, heavily armed, sporting flak jackets. They are doing what??? Jaysus..

Uh,taking in the sites of Kandahar ?
"High, I'm Major Dumbkoff . I'll be your executioner today "

And that's just the preamble.

Jeez, tommymoore, what deathless prose - thanks for that. Who do you think he's channeling, Colonel Custer or Gunga Din?

<> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
G West, something within me is moving away from your anger and aligning with Woody who is speaking from an honest wisdom built out of observation. Woody's lesson is a decent one, which in my better moments I struggle to accept. And then ...

This message has been rejected 3 times by the Tyee Nazi who thinks it is too short. "Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters," it says.

BC Mary.
And I thought you were the original angry one!

And those examples of Woody's wisdom - where do I look for those? I can't recall seeing too many of them lately. Personally, I don't like being called a communist. Do you?

I'm all for Ghandi. DO you know if we could get his principles to take effect in Afahanistan instead of Rick Hillier's and Harper's?

I think the program somehow misconstrues short quotes when you use the 'quote' function without at least 10 additional characters.

It happens to me too.

CHeers

Cheers.

I hear the spirit of Gunga Din loud and clear .
Saints preserve us from priests and soldiers .

No one can win a "war on terrorism"

Terrorism can be dormant for years and then boom!

How do you fight that?

It is the politics of fear. Same as supposed fear of being victimized by crime. It definitely creates a big market for weapons, alarm systems, private cops , body guards and so on.

But maybe Gandhi was wrong, G West! Consider: independence vastly weakened Indian internal security. Long-suppressed, colonially-controlled religious differences (trite and uninteresting to most westerns) exploded into awful sectarian violence which continues to this very day. India was hived off into India and Pakistan, and then Pakistan into Pakistan and Bangladesh. The Punjab barely remains within India, and only because of extremely brutal repression of the Indian State Police under KPS Gill. Meanwhile, India has become a net exporter of state terror, if we believe the allegations of the Tamils of Sri Lanka about the IPKF. With Pakistan, the subcontinent has consistently had some of the most inefficient, corrupt governments in memory. So, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people have suffered and died as a result of independence from the former colonial master, which South Asians remember with such hatred that they flock there in massive numbers if they can get a visa.

It's a grey world, not black or white. The empire is your enemy, but sometimes not. The liberator is your friend, but sometimes not.

Yammer
You've been away, obviously. Ghandi's not my avatar...and I didn't bring him up - just resoponded to someone else.

Read up.

I see that Canada's ambassador to Iran has been called in to explain the Prime Minister's reaction to the phony National Post story.

Maybe that is why he's not keen on answering any questions if he's not picking the interlocutor.

Stick a microphone in his face and he blows lumps!

What reputation?

G West
And your quote is from where???

His articles also get posted overseas on Arab English sites also. I suspect that he has far more credibility than the 9/11 conspiracies theories I have seen here (Which I will point out, that you are not in agreement with) I have no doubt that he has an axe to grind with the current regime in Iran, just as most of the sites that people here link to have an axe to grind with Bush, so if this guys bias makes him unreliable, than the same standards apply to the anti-Bush authors also. But of course some biases are more “equal” than others correct?

Note also that Sharia law already dictates a dress code for Muslims and that bill is being pursued in the Iranian government as addition to that which was already imposed in 1979. I am sure the Iranians will be happy to allow people to review the all drafts of the bill to prove them right (not!) Oh right I forgot, they don’t have freedom of the press there.

You have to admit the Iranians haven’t been their own best friend either, the main reason why the world is pissed with their Nuke program is someone finked to the UN about the programs they didn’t declare, plus that little statement about wiping out Israel might just have gotten people thinking they didn’t like Jews.

By the way did anyone actually pay attention to what Harper said, as he did qualify his statement, that he did not know the details, and if true he would not be surprised by it. The Iranians are playing at being indignant because they aren’t used to being criticized by people they can’t control.

While I agree with Mr. Dobbin,I would like to know a couple of things:
1) While I believe that Canada agreed to go to Afganistahn to placate the yanks for not going to Iraq, I would like to know if this appears anywhere in the public record;
2) I have long believed (50yrs) that Canada should be neutral; the way to approach this now before we become mired in all kinds of (literally) bloody nonsense is not necessarily to sever ties immediately with Nato & the UN, but to "regroup" and decide what is the best course for Canada to survive the 21st century as a humane, "decent" and respected country. For this we need a leader with vision, and a group of people of like mind who can make this
to start a public issue... Are there enough people out there with the mix of skills and experience to make this happen?
DWIsack

Colin
I thought I provided the link but I see you're correct and I didn't. I'll see if I can find it if you're really interested.

Here's pretty much the same stuff from Jim Lobe, as published in the Winnipeg Free Press today.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/westview/index.html
should get you to it although the site usually charges.
I have a copy of it if you can't get it for free.
In any case, the circumstances are highly fishy and it's not just me that's saying so. Why the call to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre before the story even appears. This is manufactured news if I've ever seen it. And you know I'm no fan of Ahmadinejad.

Thanks by the way for the vote of confidence with respect to my gullibility.

I think the National Post's abject apology today is proof enough that they were at least partially complicit. Stories on the front page ought to require a little more fact checking than that, don't you think?

As for giving the PM a pass. Why even ask? His arrogance toward the press means he doesn't trust it at the best of times. He's supposed to be a statesman and not just someone looking for a political hot potato he can use to his advantage.

He was burned, and badly when this one came back at him.
Get used to it, it's going to start happening a lot more often.

I was out this evening and overheard several tables of people discussion Mr Harper - no one was complimentary. And no, I just listened - these people didn't need any coaching.

I will agree that the Post played the story for every penny it was worth in order to sell papers, normally this sort of stuff will appear on p. 3 or such.

Colin:
found it - from an Irish Blogger who runs a site called Lenin's tomb.
You can find it here:
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006/05/latest-hitler-how-lies-become-news.html
What's good about it is the way it actually displays the pages of the papers where the story played. Gives one a nice sense of verisimilitude.

G west
Thanks for the link, his main support for the argument that the story is false comes from a researcher for the Human Rights Watch. I spent as much time there as I could and found no report on the proposed bill either supporting or disapproving. I have posted some of what I found anyways, it makes for interesting reading as long as you don’t have relatives there.

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=iran

Enforcement of the dress code for women varied with the political climate. Women detained for failing to cover their hair and to wear a flowing garment hiding the shape of their bodies were subjected to fines, up to seventy-four lashes or to prison terms of up to three months. Detentions increased during May, the period of Moharram , associated with mourning and increased piety in Shi’a Islam. Celebrations following the Iranian national soccer team’s qualification for the soccer World Cup in France in June were characterized by public mixing between the sexes and open flouting of the dress code.
Minorities
Iran’s ethnic and religious minorities are subject to discrimination and, in some cases, persecution. The Baha’i community continues to be denied permission to worship or engage in communal affairs in a public manner. In April 2005, protests erupted in the southern province of Khuzistan, home to nearly two million Iranians of Arab descent, following publication of a letter allegedly written by Mohammad Ali Abtahi, an advisor to then-President Mohammad Khatami, which referred to government plans to implement policies that would reduce the proportion of ethnic Arabs in Khuzistan’s population. After security forces opened fire to disperse demonstrators in Ahvaz, the confrontation turned violent and spread to other cities and towns in Khuzistan. The next day, Abtahi and other government officials called the letter a fake. During the clashes, security forces killed at least fifty protestors and detained hundreds more.

More here
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1997/iran/Iran-05.htm#P209_34007

Colin
Interesting and somewhat depressing stuff.

There's nothing to say that things in Iran would be much better post an American bombing campaign/invasion/what have you. We only need to look at Iraq and remember that Al Jazeera story that was posted here recently.

The way to deal with these kind of regimes is to fashion some kind of international consensus and then keep the pressure on - exactly what's happened with Libya...and seems to be what's starting to happen with N Korea.

Saddam could have been dealt with that way too and wouldn't that have turned out a lot better for the 35 or 40 thousand (absolute minimum - I'm sure the real numbers are higher) lives that have been lost?

You could argue that Qadaffi was every bit as deadly, relative to American civilian lives, as Saddam was. But he didn't have to be overthrown militarily.

The current American way of doing things actually encourages whack jobs like Ahmadinejad because it plays to their monomania.

America needs to fail, and fail badly if it is going to learn these lessons and return to the family of nations as a respected member once again.One would have thought Vietnam would be a big enough lesson for at least a half a century..alas, the US was back as a full grown blimp by the end of the century.

Gee, Kitscommuter, I have read this far down the comments, and no takers yet!!!I Guess wars are great as long as others go.

Lenin tomb is good name for that site, actually I preferred the real thing which I got to see in 1970. The site slings mud, but has it’s own anti-Israel agenda. But I do agree that posting the papers front page is good.

Qadaffi is a snake, but the only reason he is playing nice is he knows that he was an easy target and this way he is able to stay in power without having to face the US directly. I have no doubt that no one trusts him and fully expect that he will do something stupid down the road.

Who would have done what with Saddam? The sanctions had failed, he had co-opted the UN and the French, Chinese and Russians were more interested in gaining access to his oil as a way to pay off the huge war debt that he owed them. He had his sons to succeed him (that’s a scary though, Saddam looked almost reasonable compared to them) and had his powerbase established. Saddam would have been there for the long haul and the first order of business would be to counter the Iranian nuclear threat and it’s far easier and faster to rebuild your WMD programs than a competent army (which is a threat to him also) It is estimated that up to 100,000 people died every year because of his regime.

I have no doubt that the US has lost all taste for invading countries for quite some time, not to mention that it doesn’t have the forces to do so anytime soon.

From the agency that Jim Lobe is from, I found this article and reread the text of the Iranian letter. I was looking for his e-mail address to see if I can find a copy of the report from the HRW that he used to support his article.

Regarding Iran’s letter from Jim Lobes own organization

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33353

text of the letter
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12984.htm

A couple of quotes which I thought would interest people here as they seem to be afraid of the advancement of the religion in government and claim to believe in Liberalism and democracy

We believe a return to the teachings of the divine prophets is the only road leading to
salvations. I have been told that Your Excellency follows the teachings of Jesus (PBUH), and
believes in the divine promise of the rule of the righteous on Earth.

We also believe that Jesus Christ (PBUH) was one of the great prophets of the Almighty. He
has been repeatedly praised in the Koran. Jesus (PBUH) has been quoted in Koran as well;
[19,36] And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serves Him; this is the right
path, Marium.

Service to and obedience of the Almighty is the credo of all divine messengers.
The God of all people in Europe, Asia, Africa, America, the Pacific and the rest of the world
is one. He is the Almighty who wants to guide and give dignity to all His servants. He has
given greatness to Humans.

We again read in the Holy Book: “The Almighty God sent His prophets with miracles and
clear signs to guide the people and show them divine signs and purity them from sins and
pollutions. And He sent the Book and the balance so that the people display justice and avoid
the rebellious.”

All of the above verses can be seen, one way or the other, in the Good Book as well.
Divine prophets have promised:

Liberalism and Western style democracy have not been able to help realize the ideals of
humanity. Today these two concepts have failed. Those with insight can already hear the
sounds of the shattering and fall of the ideology and thoughts of the liberal democratic
systems.

We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point –
that is the Almighty God. Undoubtedly through faith in God and the teachings of the
prophets, the people will conquer their problems. My question for you is: “Do you not want to
join them?”

Again:
This is my position on the story

Amir Taheri base story has enough detail to warrant the possibility that it is true or close to the truth. He can not reveal his sources without putting them at risk (see HRW report)

The Iranian government has confirmed that there is a bill in existence that imposes a dress code on Muslims.

The article by Jim Lobe is based on information that does not appear to be public, perhaps he has better access? He also quotes the “Middle East Studies Association” A group that claims to be neutral but by the web site below they seem anything but.
http://www.campus-watch.org/survey.php/id/38

At this point neither it appears neither Jim Lobe or Amir Taheri can provide an English language source on the report or the bill that we can read for ourselves. I will try to find the e-mail of the person that wrote the report when I get a chance.

At the very least this search has been interesting

So I would have to say that it is inconclusive, regardless of your dislike of the source you or I can not prove whether the story is true or false. Likely the truth will quietly leak out later on the back pages of a newspaper or in a obscure article somewhere.

Of course left wing sites can also be suckered

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13140.htm

Oh C'mon Colin. Give me a break. The National Post is the Asper family mouthpiece. They blew it - you think they'd have posted the abject retraction they did if they hadn't inflated this thing out of all proportion? I don't have any more time for this nonsense but I also think there was a link posted here last week that quoted a Christian member of the Iranian parliament who debunked the story as well.

Why waste your time. There's actually a much more interesting op ed in this morning's NYTimes titled: The Persian Complex
By ABBAS AMANAT. He is a professor at Yale and he has something a lot more interesting and relevant to say. Stop flogging a dead horse!

Here's a link, I don't think it's behind subscription:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/opinion/25Amanat.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Dunno why anyone would publish made up stuff about the debacle in Iraq. There are lots of writers like John Burns over there who are, despite the fact that they're basically cheerleaders for the US, making the very clear case that matters are spinning out of control in new ways practically every day.

hannibal wrote:

This is the key question. since 'we' still have the 'collective' notion that force of arms can 'create' a peace. Moreover our US neighbors are going on a warpath that we cannot see the end of...

Better would be to have a merchant leader than a legal or military backgound. We must co-ordinate actions in a way based more on trade and trade goods than on the ways of the past. One of the lessons of life are to change or die.

I ask are we really ready to change?

Yes, and Rwanda.

I taped the final jump of the Airborne as a unit. JTF1 is gone now because of it.

Will JTF2 and its members ever come home, after what we have forced them to see, and do? Do we really want them back here in peaceful Canada?

I suspect that some new deployment or training area will be found (similar to the FFL) so that the 'unit' as a whole will not come back to Canada. Individual members might come back for leave, but I think 'retirement' is no longer an option.

Colin writes:

About the 'other nationalities':
Germany, France, Spain, Italy and Austria have 'mercenaries' in country. We, Canada, even hired some of them as bodyguards as soon as we arrived 'in country' because our troops did not have any armored vehicles, insufficient ammunition for their weapons (on first arrival) and no experience with mountain warfare (the airborne was gone).

Turkey and Russia have 'observers' operating the same as the US did in Vietnam in 1952.

The Dutchmen and Romanians are not 'national' troops. In fact they are drivers and support staff (only in small numbers) and have no combat role (other than self preservation when Kandahar gets over-run).

The US troops are there, but working very hard in getting out.

If you doubt any of this, then why the official protest over NATO association over the mission in Afghanistan by Germany, France, and Italy?

Why the continued friction from France towards anything the US is doing?

The FFL is a unit for hire, mercenaries. As are the German based ones that were busy last in Africa and the Balkans.

Stop trying to use their passports (which most have at least 2 or as many as 15) as some sort of indicator of national support.

freebear posted:

Most probably.

Premise: The Conservatives will be able to form another government in 12-18 months, reasons are complex and can be argued long, but if agreed that the Cons get another minority (or majority) then we can continue.

This means that in late 2008 the Cons will be 'in power' in Canada.

Conditions in Afghanistan will not have changed, if anything the 'control-zone' where the troops may patrol without being on a hair-trigger will be smaller.

If the US is talked down from going into another adventure in Iran, they will likely pour all their efforts into Iraq. Either way the US heavy airlift will be 'busy'. Too busy to help us out from somewhere the US admin wants us to be.

That will leave the Canadian command in the same quagmire they were in during the past 'debate'.
Leave via air? Gotta rent it. BIG $$$
Leave via land/water. Gotta march there, lots of dead.

The extension of the mission argument will be inevitable, provided it is the same Governance, the answer is obvious.

DennisG posted:

Yes, the time and place was the floor of the House of Commons, BEFORE ANY TROOPS LEFT CANADIAN SOIL.

But then the Conservatives and were the 'Loyal Opposition' then, when the LIEberals under Darth Cretinous launched our little war, so on whose shoulders should the blame land for not demanding such a debate? Which party was sabre-rattling loudly for the deployment?

LIEberal or Conformer, both are the same.
Both must wear the shame.

murdock, the British marched out of Afghan territory too. So like the Brits we'll march to India and then grab a few freighters home. I thought the best treatment of that march was the first Flashman book by the way :-)

Jeffrey J writes...

Gee, I am all for facism. I hear people talk about it like it is a bad thing. But God it seems to go over big with the elites, and they must know what is best for me because they went to unibersity.

The Conservative Government has made the call.
Canada is in action in Afghanistan.
The people who are serving are professional, they know what they are getting into.
It's like Canada is finally grown up , again.
The Lilly livered, liberal Canadian, will recoil at this affront to their Canadian idealism's.
We are warriors, after all. We can help people.

The only lilly -livered person here is you moron!

It;s like Canada is finally grown up , again.
Is it possible we have the balls to take on these enemies ?
Yes .
Canada is a a warrior.
Canada is not flaky anymore.

I AM Clueless

Tell me, are you drunk when you post these nightly flights of fancy?

You seem to wander in here sometime between 10 and 11 every night and post something unintelligible - a sort of bedtime exercise perhaps or a reaction to being cut off. What is it? You really don't do your cause much good you know, but it is certainly worth a laugh.

Murdoch - wow - a powerful post!!

May I ask the source of your information? I'm certainly not doubting you but I would very much like to stick it to the rednecks locally about our role in Afghanistan.

Should have included...

Murdoch - I'm asking about your post about 'other nationalities'.

Terrorism? You're never going to stop the Timothy McVies of the world.

As in Eisenhower's warning, can all of this be the result of war weapons manufacturers promoting sales? Well, maybe part of it.

Jack's asks:

and

I have some friends and business associates that do 'work' in the region (mostly the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan) and a few still serving PPCLI.

I started asking questions right off the mark once the first stories came out about Canadian troops, first sent into country, having to 'hire' German mercenaries.

The response was that there were mercs all over the place. They were mixed in with the US contingent. The brits had a few piggy-backs and the FFL has been there since before the Soviet pull-out.

A simple answer as to why the mercs are there, is wherever there is conflict lies a training opportunity for the Mercs, not to mention contract options. The 'northern alliance' war chiefs had been hiring anyone who would serve since about 1987. After the Soviet pull-out things got more difficult, Taliban and Mujihedin were able to organize more locals - making foreign faces easily recognizable. Only the FFL had enough local recruits to continue ops.

Only small contingents are active there right now, due to the recent reductions I think the Mercenaries are considering US-led options in the gulf and are re-equipping, and re-fitting for action(s) there.

Jack's addendum:

I have just been updated about a company called Blackwater. They are aggressively recruiting for bodyguards and ex-military, for a number of positions in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not all positions are 'grunt' work either, they are looking for cooks, drivers, pilots, communications specs and others.

They do not appear to be particular about your nationality, only that you have 'former' military service.

Given their aggressive marketing campaign (I have been told that they are also marketing in Australia, Germany, Japan and India.

Murdoch...

One more question... How does the U.N fit in this? My understanding - the U.N. started divying up Afghanistan regions for volunteer nation's military contribution a long time ago and, because of Chretien's dilly-dallying, Canada was the last to get in on it - so it was handed the most volatile.

Jack's:
My undesrstanding is that this is a totally different mission than the one Chretien signed on for .
Initially we were in Kabul and built camp Julian for all the forces .
We then were moved up to Kandahar on a brand new mission once Kabul was settled(?)
Remember the 4,Canadians that were bombed by the American cowboys just outside camp Julian ?
No, this is totally different from what we initially signed on for .
I don't believe that the former Governmwnt would have allowed our troops to become cannon fodder .

murdock
you're just now getting updated about Blackwater? Where have you been?

I had a feeling you were spinning your tyres above; man you don't have a clue. Better hunker down over that keyboard and do a little more research.

You might want to check into the guys for hire who brought modern white slavery to the balkans while you're at it too.

I wonder if you also noted Kofi Annan's recent statement that the invasion of Iraq was completely illegal from an international law point of view.

Until we stop siding with the crooks there is no way we can avoid being caught tight in this tarbaby.

Ditto what Alcibiades said.

"Coaltion of the willing" No."coalition of the gullible and stupid"
All Gerorgies little sycophants .

hannibal is right, the 'original' mission was one of 'pre-set' for build-up of UN forces.
Khabul was to be the first building location, with Canada, US and other 'primary-english' service nations. The French were supposed to be working on another, location TBA up until the UN resolutions stopped being debated, due to the increasing tensions of the Iraq situation, with the US decision to pursue the Iraq missions, the French backed out of Afghanistan.

Next came other EU nations starting to ask questions about the Afghan mission. Poor ol Canada was left twisting in the wind with no heavy airlift of our own and limited initial resources. We managed to get some materiel from the UK, then the German Mercs bugged out, leaving behind more toys that we 'claimed'.

Following the UN dropping out of the Afghan picture the US pushed thru Brussels to get more 'coalition' troops. NATO agreed with UK prompting, which they, the UK, sent some troops. The UK troops took over camp Julian and this 'released' the Canadian light troops for 'other' missions.

Canada is now paying the price of not updating the Defence White Paper since 1991. The NATO connection allowed the mission to change. Since the parliament did not define the mission in any way at all, other than peacekeeping support. Once the UN was gone, the support mission was superfluous, so the situation became fluid. As a NATO nation, generally the taxi squad, we could also participate. So the LIEberals continued to mislead the public about the reality of the mission in Afghanistan as it changed from one of support to combat patrolling. No surprise to those whom understand what happens 'in country' and once boots are on the ground, they are hard to get out.

Now that the NATO nations like France, Italy and Germany are not planning to send any front line troops - they want an 'out'. First is to get Canada to take on the mission command. Next will be to 'reward' us with some more influence in Brussels, with a senior command posting. Then will be to cut the purse strings, hand over all functions to Canada and get NATO out altogether. Once this is done then we, Canada, will be alone and 'on the hook' for all that happens there.

I suspect that there are some nudge-nudge, wink-wink, things that the US admin is saying to the Defence ministry personnel, or perhaps to the new US Consul-General about financial support of our continued presence in Afghanistan, since the US gets to use Canadians as a cheap 'garrison' force.

Alcibiades, I was responding to jack's questions and found it prophetic that I got another update about Blackwater only 3 seconds after I hit Post Comment.

I have been well aware of many of the mercs all over the planet.

jack's and others may not be so informed.

Since you are so up to speed, perhaps you could provide all your sources and details?

Alcibiades wrote:

Well, the 'international law', depends on the willingness and ability to enforce it.

Right now there are no nations lining up to do any enforcement at all.

Since Gulf War I, with the blatant border crossing of Saddam into Kuwait and the subsequent reversal that he faced at 'coalition' hands there are no nations interested in taking on the US.

Ultimately they, those nations, do not need to 'take on' the US, or any body else militarily.

The real battlefield is the stock market, the Ventur Capitalist boardrooms, the planetary economy, and the 'capture' of knowledge of the future.

The nuclear aircraft carrier is as much a museum peice as the armored knight on his percheron warhorse, or the longbow, or a suit of lorica-segmentata. It will take time for the hotheads in the Whitehouse to clue into this, but others have already.

Don't think this is so? Check out, The World is Flat, or The Soverign Individual. In Friedman's work he points out that Pakistan and India were again getting ready to 'escalate' into nuclear missile testing and had conventional forces massed on the borders. Then Indian businessmen came to their government and told them point-blank to 'find another way' since the comms center at Tata was getting battered. The Indian software industry was facing being wiped out by Chinese programmers if the Indian locations could not be counted on for contracts. Clients were scattering away, and with them their money, with that income stream breaking up the Venture Capitalists were also backing away.

If the US keeps up their methods of 'commandeering' the assets of others by military means, they may find those assets gone or made much, much less accessable in the near future.

Another poster has pointed out that the oil from the 'stans' was part of the reason for the original interest in Afghanistan. The idea being to create a stable transfer region to get the oil into the west. That still assumes that the 'stans' will sell to the west. What if after the continued military solutions to things these 'nations' choose to deal with a different customer? Send their oil east across the Caspian and steppes?

I know that Oil and other commodities are traded and sold all over the place and oil from the 'stans' might be sold to India, then transferred and sold again. But eventually the transport costs are going to start to sting.

The reality is that 'international law' is whatever the powers that can enforce that law decide what it will be.

Earlier in this thread I said that the UN is like unto the defunct League of Nations. I take that back, for there will be no need for 'Nations' as we have come to understand them in the past 300 years, the 'hollow men' of the UN are as redundant as that aircraft carrier.

Kitscommuter, how you coming with the volunteer brigade. Should have lots of takers by now.

murdock
Friedman is an agent. In the days after Sept 11 he wrote that 'nothing good ever happens in the world unless the United States is involved'. I consider anyone who quotes the man except as an illustration of idiocy and simplemindedness is suspect.

The remark about the United Nations - and the expression of Kofi Annan's opinion - relative to the recently renewed affection of the United States for any kind of 'internationalism' was meant to point out the irony between the current situation and what that same country was saying in the run up to its illegal operation in IRAQ. You might want to think back to some of the statements made by the current American Ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton, who was a senior official in the State Department at the time.

Thomas Friedman's sanguine views about the transformative powers of global capitalism, along with the now somewhat more fragile hegemony of the United States are both discredited currency, in my view.

We may find some form international government will again become necessary and effective before long. Crises of one form or another have a way of being cathartic. Many more murders by forces in the field may move events along a little faster than we expect.

I confused the U.N. with NATO in my whole understanding of the current role.

Thank you Murdoch, Hannibal, Alcibiades and others for your knowledge of this whole situation.

I know the Taliban have very weird rituals and sometimes cruel customs (public executions, complete lack of women's rights) - but it seemed to govern this tribally volatile region of the world for a while in the 1990s - to mostly all Afghanis satisfaction. At least the Taliban kept a lid on Tribal warring and it reduced Drug trafficking.
Good point made above about the oil Murdoch.

Jack's:
In relation to your comments about the Taliban above, I wonder if you've been following in the press the accounts of what happened at Haditha, Iraq, where members of the Third Battalion, First Marines, are accused of killing some 24 innocent civilians including women and children.

The guys Bush sent to hunt down Saddam because he was killing ‘innocent’ people are now busy slaughtering innocents themselves. A force that was supposed to be bringing law and order to the countryside is now taking the law into its own hands.

After a marine was killed by an IED members of the battalion are said to have gone on a five-hour search for vengeance. A second alleged incident is being investigated.

Does anyone think that this kind of poison won’t start affecting our soldiers in Afghanistan before long? It is simply impossible to expect soldiers to do this kind of ‘work’ without regressing to the primal state of blood-thirsty warriors. After two or three tours of our over-extended ‘volunteers’ I can almost guarantee we’ll be hearing of similar stories involving young men and women who wear the maple leaf.

We need to get out now. It isn’t enough for the fathers of dead soldiers to speak up and let the Prime Minister he’s wrong; it isn’t enough for the members of the press gallery to stand up to Harper’s arrogance – it’s now time for ordinary Canadians to take to the streets and the airwaves and the papers and let this dead-eyed fascist know his days as the putative dictator of this democracy are coming to an end.

greengreen

Not too well. No volunteers so far. But I've got a better idea. Why not export all our jobs to third world countries where we'll make a killing profiting from the crappy wages we can pay the labourers there. They won't be able to do anything about it since we'll be paying off the juntas they have ruling them to keep them in line. We can then offer the option of military service to the unemployed in our country and tell them they're defending the great western ideals of capitalism and freedom. Then we can send them off to defend our "rights", when, shhh, don't say this too loud, they're actually protecting our business interests and we can continue to make a killing. No pun intended of course. Whatever you do, don't mention this too loud. If anybody catches on, we'll just give them the old patriot argument and slag them as traitors. Brilliant! I wonder if it will work?

Alcibiades - Good point....

Excellent, excellent info from all....

Here,here Alcibiades . Couldn't agree more .
The moron has got to go befoe we get much deeper into the quick sand/quagmire that is Afghanistan.
The idiot has the weakest Government(?) in the histroy of our nation and yet he acts as if he has this huge mandate drom the people.
Two of three Canadians voted against this goof .
And here he is throwing his weight around like he has a B. Mulroney majority .
Time to call in the dogs and piss on the fire the hunt's over .
I think we should be talking to Buzz and other union leaders about putting together a mass rally in Ottawa to protest the war .
They have the numbers and the organization .
Jack Layton could help also if he is so inclined .
Take it to the streets .This idiot has got to learn a couple of lessons about humility .

Colin:
Your sanguine approach to Ahmadinejad may not be quite so sanguine after you read this. From tomorrow's New York Times. Seems like he's moving into a position where he actually has some real power:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/28/world/middleeast/28iran.html?ei=5094&en=b9be1c95beeefaad&hp=&ex=1148788800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

And he's doing it with the approval of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. GO figure. Maybe Bush will actually have to start talking to the Iranians.

Alcibiades wrote:

Just as the Somalia incident came about because we had sent our elite 'warriors' out to protect others and act as peace-keepers and builders. Our over-extended forces are stretched to the limits, Gen (ret) MacKenzie proposed bringing all forces back to canada for 6 months of rest, recouperation and refitting while a new white paper was drafted and the 'brass' of the Army was paid off, eliminating all ranks above brigadier, with a few of those tossed in for good measure. These proposals were being put forward before 9/11 so I cannot imagine that the conditions in the field are any better now.

With the continued extension of young troops (many newly recruited with limited prior experience), I fully expect another incident like that of Somalia, the only difference with Afghanistan is that there may be no reporting of the event at all...

Chances are good it has already happened in Afghanistan .Media are required to clear all stories and photos through brass .
With JTF2 there anything can happen .
Media would be kept ,totally, in the dark .
It is not unusual to have soldiers go off the rservation and take matters into their own hands.
Somalia is a prime example of this .

murdock
I almost hate to agree with you, but it would be churlish not to. We shouldn't be there under the current terms and we should get the hell out now. But, it's not going to happen and our international reputation is headed for the toilet. Harper is so compromised on this file he doesn't even seem to be aware of what O'Conner has established with respect to military protocol for memorials once the remains of Canadian soldiers have arrived back in Canada. Services in Calgary and the remarks of the father of the first Canadian female killed in 'combat' at her funeral make that eminently clear.

This man is an embarrassment as commander in chief. With advisers like the loathsome John Reynolds there is much worse to come, in my view.

above reference to the Minister for Defence should be O'Connor, sorry!

Yea, well when we have a PM that makes it up on the fly what do you expect .
Mr.Goddard says he spoke with PM prior to Nichola's repatriation and "I am not aware of any problems"
Clearly Mr.and Mrs. Goddard expected the press to cover their daughter's return .
Gordon O'Conner is just another neo-con idiot who has no business being in Government(?)
Had Harpo not tampered with the process inititally there would have been no problem .
Harpo has built up so much resentment from Canadians I can't wait for the next election when these morons are tossed out on their fat asses .
These goofs are making the adscam look mild in comparison to their antics .
I keep praying that a planeload of these goofs will crash into a mountain somewhere .

IMHO Harpo is far too immature to be leader of anything except maybe a Boy Scout Troop .
With apologies to Lord Baden Powell .
This mans churlish, childish outbursts are an embarassment to the nation .
Go ahead Harpo and follow Georgie right over the cliff .
Saying the press is biased against him when clearly they were eighty per cent responsible for his election is retarded .Practically all the major news groups endorsed the big goof .
With apologies to mental defectives everywhere. No,Harpo and the gang at the Calgary School have much worse in store for us Canadians .
Harpo's hidden agenda is the Straussian agenda.
Keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em BS. Like mushrooms .
With no organized opposition the idiot should be riding, very, high in the polls .
I am furious with the so-called media as they have done very little to expose this mans short comings and they are legion .
I hope that the people who organize against Globalization will sit up and take notice of what this dirt bag is doing to the greatest nation on the planet and start protesting his government(?)

Hannibal and all...
About getting out of Afhanistan - you're preaching to the choir here but.....

We cannot put our heads in the sand about terrorism. It's pretty damn scary when a man is sentenced to death for converting to christianity (from Islam).
On the other side of the coin, countries are free to make their own laws and we all have a choice not to visit that particular country.

In one incident, one of our soldiers was axed while speaking in a public forum to a group of town elders. Just before the incident all the children were moved back out of harms way.
It's obvious many of them don't want us there.

Alcibiades posted:

Absolutely, I completly agree with this observation.

I do not agree that it is solely Harper's fault, he was the opposition leader, and was a wet noodle on this file when we went into the region, but he was not the one calling the shots. That was Cretien, he and his Liberal party must wear the direct blame for going into the region in the first place.

Considering Cretien, after leaving office went on a whirlwind tour of the middle east including, Kazakhistan, Turkmenistan, and Pakistan (signing some sort of agreements with business interests in Kazakh and Pakistan) I can only conclude that Cretien was well aware of the energy interests and their connections, once out of office he used those contacts to pad more on his already golden nest egg. I do not begrudge him for taking his advantages handed to him by the sheeple of Canada, what I do not like is the spilling of blood that was under his watch and now he and his LIEberals are not going to face any consequences for those actions.

Sadly I think that the CONformers will return to office, I am not pleased by the prospect but can understand it with the ageing of the Canadian population will come more 'conservative' (small 'c') values, which the right wing has always been better at representing (whether they really believe in any of those values, or indeed have any values at all is another question), and in the popularity contests that we call elections, image is more important than action. If the LIEberals under Cretien have taught the CONformers anything it is how to have a 'good image'.

The unfortunate part of all of these musings is that there is no federal alternative, the two biggies CON and LIB are essentially the same (as far as I am concerned), the NDP cannot grasp for any power so long as Smilin Jack is at the helm and the NDP continue to fight themselves in CCF/NDP arguments, nor will they ever gain traction in PQ. Young poli-sci students can see this very quickly and must make a choice, join the 'neuveau-barbarians' or fight them in a loosing cause. Most have chosen to take the comms or PR positions and look the other way when it comes to the values questions.

Within this generation of Canadians there will come a time when these actions, which do not match the words or 'image' will become too much and the change will come in a flash.

Just like it did when the Catholic Church fell from grace, then power in europe in the 15th Century, sure they are still in existence, but is it a mere shadow of the power and prestige that the church held in 1450. By 1550, nearly all their lands and powers had been frittered away and the general populace had lost faith with them.

I see something similar now, with the general loss of faith in Western governance since about 1970, now I think the twilight of Nations, as they came to be known in the 20th Century, is coming to a close. With that close will be Canada's governance.

Some, like Coyote here, will say that the take-over is complete, that the Corporations are already in control. I say no, since those corporations cannot call all the shots in such a large and complex region as Canada. Certain key areas are definately dominated, and as those dominations are allowed to prolifierate, so will the exposure of the hands of power. Thus making exercise of that power harder, without risking collapse.

I present all of the proceeding simply to point out that the international reputation of 'every nation' of the 20th C will be facing a 'flushing down' very soon. Better than we all start considering very carefully what sort of collective governance and society we want to live in and work to move it that way.

I still say that a place as large and diverse as Canada cannot continue with the sort of wealth re-distribution that it did in the 20th C and survive intact.

I agree with that, the people need to see that wealth re-distribution to corporations, shareholders, capitalists and famliy trusts ends now, if not sooner, to permit the riches of this country to come back into the hands of the majority of the population who actually do productive work. I'm tired of supporting these leeches.

There's no easy answer to all of this.
There's no doubt that Bush opened a can of worms with U.S. warmongering.

China seems to be a country nobody messes with - so maybe the plan should be to suck up to the Chinese in some diplomatic/trade way that will make China value our friendship. So I guess getting out of Afghanistan would be a step in the right direction.
However - we need the U.S. for trade.

So many important pros and cons. Anyway, this site has given me a far greater understanding of the issues. It's certainly not reassuring to leave this matter to the politicians.

One final post from me on the subject....

Harper didn't extend our Afg. tour alone! A lot of politicians all of you voted for went along with him on it.

Jack's, and Murdock
You're both right about the blame for this mess. It definitely needs to be shared. Ignatieff for one has managed to get himself caught on both sides of the party he's trying to win the right to lead.

He's placed his star firmly on the 'left' of the Liberal party and then voted with pee wee's government to extend the mission until 2009. If he wins the leadership he may find some difficulties with the 'progressive' wing of his own party if (and when) the situation in Afghanistan starts to go badly wrong.

More on the Marines actions in Iraq, from today's Observer

New photographs lend weight to allegations of revenge killings by US unit under attack in which 24 unarmed civilians died
Paul Harris in Washington and David Smith in Basra

Fresh photographic evidence seen by US investigators is believed to reveal that some of the 24 unarmed Iraqis killed in the Iraqi town of Haditha after an American died in a roadside bomb in November were in effect executed, it was reported yesterday.

According to Congressional and defence officials quoted by the Los Angeles Times, the pictures show wounds to the upper bodies of the victims, who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back.

'There wasn't a gunfight, there were no pockmarked walls,' the paper reports a congressional aide as saying. And it quotes a US Defence Department official who had been briefed on the contents of the photos as saying 'the wounds indicated execution-style' shootings.

US military investigators are probing the events of 19 November 2005, and a picture is gradually emerging of a small group of troops who lost control in the wake of an unrelated attack on their vehicle, which left one of their comrades dead. Other soldiers then helped to cover up the atrocity.

Claims that US marines massacred Iraqi civilians threaten to undermine public support for keeping British troops in the country, the UK's most senior military officer said yesterday. The Chief of Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said that reports of the unprovoked killing of up to two dozen unarmed Iraqis would be 'appalling' if proved accurate. 'Our people are in Iraq and other parts of the world doing difficult and dangerous things in unpleasant circumstances on behalf of their country and they need the support of the people in their country. This sort of accusation - and it is at the moment just an accusation, of course - does make that harder to achieve,' he told the BBC.

Two parallel investigations are trying to piece together what happened in the incident. They were sparked by evidence first collected by Time magazine and Iraqi human rights workers. One probe, by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, is examining the killings, while another looks at any cover-up. Both are set to conclude in the next few weeks. It is widely expected that they will end with the courts martial of several marines and possible charges of murder.

Some top US politicians involved with defence issues have already been briefed on the issue and they have told reporters that the evidence is damaging. 'Marines over-reacted... and killed innocent civilians in cold blood,' Congressman John Murtha, a former marine, told the Washington Post. One retired general, David Brahms, told the newspaper: 'When these investigations come out, there's going to be a firestorm. It will be worse then Abu Ghraib. Nobody was killed at Abu Ghraib.'

The incident happened after a hidden bomb exploded as a US marine unit passed through Haditha. One marine, Miguel Terrazas, was killed. Two other marines were also wounded in the blast.

What happened next is the focus of the investigations. Eyewitnesses and human rights groups believe the marines swept through the town in a lust for revenge. The attack may have lasted for several hours. At the end of it, 24 Iraqi civilians had been killed. They included a 76-year-old amputee and a four-year-old boy. In one house an entire family, including seven children, were attacked with guns and grenades. Only a 13-year-old girl survived. …