Excellent choice of writers, Tyee. It'll make an easy reference for testing the strength of the commitment during the next few years.

When I first saw the name Campbell I figured Charles Campbell would be doing another hilarious comitment-comschimptent of the local libs' dealings with aboriginals, but to do the Premier's speech is fairly brilliant.

Not much to bitch about in the speech, either.
Darn!

How much would anyone like to wager that aboriginal affairs becomes a major factor in the negotiations upcoming on the 'fiscal imbalance' with the provinces?

I don't think the Flannagan wing of the CPC has disappeared. Harper may want to unload the whole issue onto the provinces - with all costs and headaches - with a simple transfer of a few tax points.

I doubt these guys have any concern at all for anyone but their accomplices. They never did before, and past behaviour is your best indication of what to expect from anybody.

Yesterday I saw Rich Coleman in estimates stand up and say that homeless people and the disabled are somebody he "cares about". Actually he spoke collectively for his whole party and the cities of the lower mainland.

He didn't seem to notice that for years now, it's been their own policies that constituted this monumental abuse in the first place.

If you are buying this dreck, I'd like to talk to you about this bridge I think you'd like.

I can't quite figure out what's causing these crocodile tears all of a sudden after years and years of blowing these powerless people off, but I'm quite sure something is.

I'll predict that whatever it is, it'll hit the proverbial fan soon, and then we'll know.

I must say, I really resent the fact that watching these guys lie for all these years has made me so totally skeptical. I'd love to believe. I really would. But I can't shake the memory of every time I did believe, and then just got suckered.

If I were native, homeless or disabled, I'd be counting the spoons. Liberals are coming to dinner.

Are you kidding me ?
That weasal Harpo and his Seargent at Arms Tom Flanagan(First Nations Second Thoughts) has already gutted the accord .
There will be no more money for the FN's .
What from 5,billion to less than 500, million that was promised .
That idiot Monte Solberg said, "Why should we respect a program that was written on the back of a napkin "
Twit that he is .
I have read the accord and it must have been some napkin !
I am glad to see Campbell has commited to the accord. Now if he can only convince the weasal to make good on the Liberal's promise .

We have some swirling controversy near where I live over First Nations "partnering"....partnering with business that has direct ties to the BC Liberal party...and negotiations over which the present government is "watching over".

Local regional districts have no veto over land use at the treaty table...and little information is forthcoming as usual...is the picture becoming clearer?

As Bailey so astutely observes:

It's the old leopard and spots thing...glad to see that not everyone is fooled.

Harper's budgetary allotment for First Nations:

$450 million for improvement of water quality and housing on reserves, as well as "education outcomes and socio-economic conditions for aboriginal women, children and families.

This is in lieu of the following, as mandated by the Kelowna agreement:

Education:
$1.05 billion over the next 5 years to promote education innovation on-reserve
$150 million over the next 5 years for off-reserve initiatives within the public school system, including $50 million to improve education in the North.
$500 million investment over the next five years will be made, including post secondary education bursaries, scholarships and apprenticeships.
To prepare children for their school-age experience, the Government of Canada will invest an additional $100 million over the next five years in existing initiatives for urban, Metis and Northern Aboriginal children.

$870 million to stabilize the First Nation and Inuit Health System; and,
$445 million to promote transformation and to build capacity.
The Government of Canada will invest $1.6 billion over the next five years to support transformative change in housing
$600 million to support market-based approaches and the transformation of social housing on-reserve;
$300 million to support new federal/provincial/territorial partnership agreements for Aboriginal housing off-reserve;
$300 million for Northern housing partnerships; and,

$400 million for water and other infrastructure as well as an acceleration of the First Nations Water Management Strategy to regulate water quality on reserves and work with First Nations communities to ensure training for operators.

As part of its strategy to achieve these goals, the Government of Canada will invest $200 million over the next five years in the following:

$12 million toward accelerating the regulatory regime under the First Nations Commercial and Industrial Development Act for commercial and industrial activities; and,
$188 million for Economic Development Framework initiatives.

In recognition of this, the Government of Canada will invest $170 million over the next five years:

$90 million to national and regional Aboriginal organizations to assist them in enhancing their core capacity to work with governments in policy development and other initiatives;
$60 million for the development of indicators and accountability; and,
$20 million for engagement on renewal of Land Claim and Self-Government policies

To address other urgent needs for Aboriginal Canadians, including more than $1.4 billion confirmed in Budget 2005 and more than $2 billion from recent announcements including:

$700 million for healthcare;
$345 million for Aboriginal Children and Youth (First Nations Child and Family Services, Special Education and Early Learning and Childcare);
$340 million to strengthen Aboriginal social foundations (Aboriginal Healing Foundation, Aboriginal Languages and Culture and Aboriginal Housing);
$50 million for relationships (Powley Strategy; PSE Scholarships and the Inuit Secretariat);
$62.5 million as the First Nations share of the gas tax;
$100 million investment for Broadband for Rural and Northern Development; and,
$2.2 billion including compensation for the direct benefit of former students and funding for healing and commemoration in an Agreement in Principle toward a fair and lasting resolution of the legacy of Indian Residential schools.

Yea, that's the same .
Did you hear Charest crowing about the seat at the UNESCO table Harpo arranged .
Biggest thing since confederation.
Yea,right !
They have a seat but not a vote .
Now Harpo thinks he has the power to rule at UNESCO.Fool!
Can't wait until Charest is tossed out on his ass and Harpo's plan explodes in his stupid face .
Out of a possible 75,seats available in Qubec Harpo might manage to squeeze out 12 .
Maybe BC should push for their own seat at the UNESCO table.
Why not they are a net contributor ?

And let's move forward together, guided by the light of hope that was lit by all governments in Kelowna, to build a better Canada for Aboriginal Canadians....

Ugh! Shouldn't that be "build a better "first Nations" for Canada? or was there a fork in the road)

Ordinarily I wouldn't agree with Baily....

Your BC Libs are not only inept, braindead hack crooked corrupt thieving pigs at the trough, they happen to be crackheads too? There goes the neighborhood. :-)

Oh Yeah! - Well we've got Colin Thatcher. Trump that my weird (sask farmer) friend.

But he's in jail. The BCLIBs are still on the loose - that's the problem - trumped!!

Nah! he's on day parole!!!

I see this speech as very similar to Bush's bringing "democracy" to Iraq speech...pure opportunistic self-interest trying real hard to appear noble....where the decimation and then re-building of Iraq was looked at in terms of opportunity for those Amerikan corporate vultures intent to feed off of it... and the available funding.

In the words of the premier:

"Let us confirm the new partnerships that were promised, let us confirm long-term funding and let us find the strength and the commitment to meet this challenge on behalf of all Canadians. Let us talk about how to invest that money to maximize its benefit to Aboriginal people."

The linking of land treaty negotiations with a partnering of First Nations with business interests with inside access to a corrupt government I think is a precarious minefield for both First Nations and the people of this province.

Treaty negotiation offers certain protection from public scrutiny over land use...and certain business and corporate interests all too willing to partner with First Nations may see this as an opportunity not to be missed.

Bailey, you are right on! I think Campbell & Co. are getting worried about that $55 million the feds were suppoosed to fork over for 2010, as their half of the total $110 million. Campbell has stated the BC government will not be handing over their $55 millions until the feds do, so Furlong must be starting to sweat just a little. Campbell is looking for a lever.....anything will do. After all, this Olympics is supposed to be a profit-maker!

I wonder if he knows many Indians hate being referred to as Aboriginals... probably not.

THey still lock him up at night - which is more than what happens to our guys.

Remember this is the same idiot who gave the province the Land Claims Referendum, that binding/not binding boondoggle of a few years ago. A lot of time and money, not to mention prestige has been invested in treaty negotiations. Campbell knows if this goes south because the feds are out of the funding business that he's in a lot of hot water politically within the province. He can imagine himself as the BC version of Dalton McGuinty sweating through the summers of 2007/08 with native protests blocking railways and highways while he's desperately trying to see the OLYMPIC highway completed. This speech is a measure of his desperation to avoid that fate, not an expression of a changed nature, in my view.

Good thing a new brand of Justice is on the way -

You mean Basi/Virk won't get house arrest? They'd have to do hard time? If I could be sure of that I might actually support pee wee's new sentencing guidelines. Personally, I'd give them both a medal if they rolled over on their political bosses. I think Basi used to be on the National field hockey team, I think he sees himself as a bit of an athlete so he may well decide to tough it out.

LOL

Rick
I think the Olympics money is in the bag - it's meant to be the other half of Emerson's apotheosis after all. The deal is that Pee Wee is completely uncommitted to funds for First Nations because he's ideologically disinclined to see them as anything but defeated colonized people who have avoided the necessary discipline of total integration with the dominant culture. Campbell's on the firing line here in the province so he's not able to approach the idea of walking away from Kelowna with the same dispassion Harper can.

Well welcome to the new world. The Native file will be examined pretty closely by our new Govt.
At a cost of 8 Billion dollars we have a right to examine this thing.

I AM Clueless
How absolutely typical of your type. Steal the land; degrade the culture; impoverish the people and then eventually recognize your error and promise to do something about it. A few months later refuse to do what you've promised to. I hope the First Nations people have your number.

You've now become the royal 'we': coequal of pee wee and his clones. Have they let you know when Cabinet meets?

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Follow the bouncing lie on the neo-cons tennis court. This deal will go the way of the agreement on child care. Diluted to insignificance.

All I can say is that the myopic view expressed by this bunch is going to bite them on the ass eventually .
Have they no memory of Ipperwash or Gananoquee(SP)or other times the FN's have chosen to challenge the master in their house .
We all know that Harpo is a huge fan(friend) of Tom Flanagan who expects the FN's to be assimilated into our cities and do away with the reserve culture entirely .
Flanagan wants to do away with the Native culture entirely .
I think the FN's should organize a take back the land day and blockade every highway or road that crosses their land .

Hey, Truman! Since Gordon Campbell's statement has left me temporarily speechless, let me tell you about how I was thinking of you recently.

It was when I heard a woman singing Leonard Cohen's "Dance me to the edge of love." Luckily it was in a crowded room, and it was being played from a CD ... "luckily" because it was probably the worst condition for any performance ... and yet her voice and those words just leapt above the rest ... the words, the melody, the sound all rich with meaning ... I loved it ... and certainly nobody had to tell me who wrote it.

was the Kelowna $500 mill extra, that is to say above and beyond to the annual $9BILLION taxpayer dollars that are provided annually to the the "keep 'em on welfare" strategy known as the Federal Aboriginal Affairs program ??

Also, wasn't the Kelowna $500 mill over ten years ??

So who's playing politics ??

Five years.

hannibal wrote:

This is where the big mistake was made.

Mr. Dithers, umm Martin, and the premiers made a huge mistake not inviting the CPC to the table in the first place. But then the LIEberals thought that the election was inthebag.

Forgetting that part or responsible democracy is to include the opposition.

Not that the CONformers are doing any better, but I do not for one second deny that the Government of the day, in this case the CONformers, has the right to act as it chooses.

Just remember this (among all the other nutty things that have happened in this 3-month long parliament) and whom it was that brought us here -> both the LIEberals and the CONformers need a spanking. Vote independant.

Regarding the 'accord' I should like to add that the native leadership is also divided on this issue - mostly along the old fault lines of on or off reserve status and financial rewards.

You know Murdock the neo-cons were well represented at the table by the likes of Ralph Klein and Gordon Campbell .
I can think of no instance where the opposition has been invited into cabinet to debate the bills of the day .
All parties voted for it including your precious neo-cons .
FYI I despise the term Lieberal as it is too childish for words .
Democracy does not include the oppositions position of ongoing legislation .
I agree that both parties need a time out in the wood shed but that is where our agreement ends .

Yeh, absolutely - vote independent, join murdock in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Campbell is filling his drawers because he can't get the vision of a dozen British Columbia Caledonias out of his fevered little mind. Must make him think back to the peaceful bliss of a nice stiff drink.

ROTFLMAO Alcibiades . Too funny .'Cloud Cuckoo Land'
Wish I'd of thought of that .Stiff drink !
Funny .

hannibal, thx for the thumbs up - too much credit to moi though. Idea came from an old Greek friend of mine called Aristophanes - from a play called 'The Birds'. Not much new under the sun. Another old Roman geezer called Horace has some of the best critiques of greed and selfishness I've ever read.

All the best!

Ah IAMC and Logjam, utilize the old "indians don't pay taxes and are all welfare bums, so get them off their asses and make them real Canadians" argument.

A couple facts, not opinions, that you spout off in here. Facts are proven statements.

FACT: I am Aboriginal, I own a home, I work off-reserve, so therefore I pay taxes on my income and on my house. Tax exemptions only count when goods and services are purchased or delivered to reserve land, or ones primary location of employment is on-reserve (I'm not making this up. Go see the Canada Customs and Revenues website). If you're interested, I can send you my T4 for the last 5 years if you wish. I PAY TAXES!!

FACT: The Aboriginal tax base in this country, draws in 8 Billion dollars, which is the annual working budget for the Department of INdian & Northern Affairs Canada.

FACT: None of the senior managers at INAC are Aboriginal, and at last count, there are less than 25% Aboriginal people employed by this bungling beaurocratic mess that seeks to keep Aboriginal people oppressed.

So, using your logic, there are a lot of white folks out there living off the fat of the Aboriginal tax base. As one of those taxpayers, maybe I should have a say in who gets hired there. Nah, I'd rather just live my life happy, and not act like you.

Interesting perspective isn't it?

Glad to see you Coach. I have to go, I'll leave these clueless ones in your capable hands.

Thanks for that Coach.Puts a whole new light on the matter .
But it won't shut 'em up .
Their perspective is racism based.Period.
They like Tommy Flanagan ,want to do away with FN's culture entirely and assimilate all of the people into cities .
Do away with reserves,their language,their culture and everything else that the FN's have contributed .
Sigh !

Good one, coach.

Not that it is going to get these neoconazis to change their racist slandering, it goes with their Aryan Nation sensibilities and lack of real knowledge of just about everything they write here. And these really are leopards that are not going to change their spots. Conservatives are mostly just braunshirt mentality fascists out of their uniforms and jackboots and wearing a civvy disguise anyway. Desparately seeking the appearance of respectability.

We don't listen to them, most of us, but just backhand them across their dumbass neocon yaps here anyway, everytime they raise their skinheads-, so feel free brother.

When the disabled tried to point out that we had been promised our disability status was for life, the Campbell Klan said "we never promised you that , It was someone else." Perhaps Our new Prime Minister could use this line on Campbell so that he knows what it is like to be completely marginalized. Naturally, Campbell will fight for the money as his greed mongers are running into difficulty raping and pillaging in the face of increasing native unrest. What a bonus if he could get someone else to pay the bill and get on with his money grubbing. As a disabled man, The history of the Liberals in this province have left me scared for our future. Rich Colemans comments means to me that we are back in their radar and that frightens me no end.

Good for you NDN_Coach, may I inquire as to whether you live on reserve and have a number?

Humbug...

If ALL native leaders would share the wealth with their people and submit to government audits on their spending, I would have a much more agreeable mindset with giving them money.

As it is, they have the best of both worlds when it comes to education, taxes and everything else that the rest of us citizens pay dearly for. Native standard of living is mostly of their own making...

Youch! Humbug - there are countless injustices with respect to Indians. - The question is, is Gordon Campbell the man to trust, in my view he is not, I see nothing more than an opportunist.

I think Lynn and Alcibiades have it right. Mr Campbell wants that money to flow through First Nations to his business-buddies and blockades leading up to the Olympics would be unsightly and bad for business.

I think the long term vision the right wing has for First Nations in BC is to turn the bands into corporations. They are continually frustrated, however, because FN people don't seem to have the same ideas about private vs. public property.

If Flanagan who does not believe in treaty negotiations with First Nations is Harper's wizard behind the emerald curtain, then Martyn Brown is surely Gordon Campbell's.

As Campbell's chief of staff he was the driving force behind the infamous Land Claims referendum. Brown formerly worked as a senior aide to B.C. Reform party leader Jack Weisgerber.

"Then, for a time, Brown led up a group of folks from the Interior who were mightily miffed by an aboriginal roadblock at Adams Lake. His passion for putting Natives in their place, combined with Reform's reverence for referenda, blossomed.

When Brown was hired by Campbell, he took that passion with him and convinced Campbell of the wisdom of a province-wide vote. (He also had a hand in hiring his old boss Weisgerber-a former minister of aboriginal affairs under the Socreds-to be B.C.'s chief delegate to the treaty commission.)"

Harper and Campbell are on the same team...despite the appearance of this present falling out over funding....this is like that old Jack Nicholson movie Chinatown...no matter how it appears... at base this is about money, real estate, land use and investment.

Watch the BC Liberals appointments of late to the Agricultural Land Commission...all big money donors to the BC Liberal party.

The latest high profile appointment to the Agricultural Land Commission being the former aide to Stockwell Day personally recruited by Campbell himself.

All this while a serious tempest swirls about The Agricultural Land Reserve...involving the Basi and Virk case and influence-pedalling.

Haven't we yet learned to not listen to a word Gordon Campbell says...but to pay attention to what his government actually does:

Christine Hunt, the first aboriginal person appointed to The BC Land Commission was fired by the Campbell government.

Thanks for that fanshaw...I really mean it...I was waiting for someone to see how this clever ruse is being played... because this is First Nations treaty negotiations being used to facilitate corporate interests....it is a land and investment grab/partnering cleverly done under the lack of public scrutiny that treaty negotiations offers.

Alcibiades:

He will promise anything, as the native vote has been traditionally liberal, and he is sucking after all the traditional liberal voting blocks for the next electoral go around.

He will indeed hand over the $55 millions, but he will want to attach it to some reduction somewhere, like environment. He will make it an either/or for "the people" to decide, except that it will be presented post-implementation.

You should hear/read Shelagh Rogers' trip to FORT CHIPEWYAN, and what Alberta's environmental abuse is doing the the inhabitants there. And he will be cutting even more off environment.........

Well Lynn, with all due respect almost everything you wrote will simply be denied.

Are you alleging that the Indians are mixed up with the "land and investment grab/partnering" complicity through treaty negotiations?

If so, shouldn't you be supporting Flanagan?

The speech Cambell made was a great bit of fluff. When he got down to the part of the honor of the crown I nearly gagged. That man did his utmost to screw up the Nisga'a treaty. He was dishonouring the crown then, as the parties had agreed after so many years to hammer out that agreement. He was going to court to try to stop that treaty. He did a referendum to try to stop it when elected.

He said people have to keep their word if we expect to get ahead. Well he sure as heck diddn't keep his word. I recall him telling assorted union he wasn't about to tear up contracts. He did tear up contracts, so much for him keeping his word.
Talk minus action is zero ,Gordon.

But he was correct in one thing. A Federal Government, all the Provinces and territories and first nations leaders struck an agreement and it was quickly broken by the new guys coming in. So why bother writing legislation if it can be bounced by the new guys with little though of the honour of the crown or the idea of. Our word means something. Obviously to certain politicians their words don't mean very much.

Same on Harper and Campbell . No matter what happens Gordon looks good. Besides folks inBC like it when they argue with Ottawa.

Nope, and do not twist what I said... I'm saying they are being used...and that the process of treaty negotiations is being used to facilitate corporate interests. I know of a Chief that stepped down precisely because of these concerns.

Good piece, DPL. I think one of the problems your quote highlights is one often stated here by Peter Dimitrov...that the Crown in this country no longer represents or works in the interests of the people.

It represents other interests now.

Why is gordo so adamant in the Kelowna accord?
There has to be a reason as he has never been known to fight for the underdog.
I smell a rat here!
What did Harper & Gordo talk about when they met in Ottawa? Kelowna Accord, BC softwood, Child Care,
They’ve both sold Canada out they should both be thrown out with the rest of the garbage.
The 2010 over run cover-ups, I say we boycott the rich mans hwy to a playground we working poor can't afford or enjoy.

Well Lynn, without twisting your vocabulary, you leave little room for intelligent Indians who no longer accept trinkets.

What do you suppose is on their agenda?

[commentor: gasworksposted: 2 Hours AgoGood for you NDN_Coach, may I inquire as to whether you live on reserve ]

I have a problem with the above question of gasworks. I am sure it was not meant to be offensive, but I find it is. What does it matter if an aboriginal/native/indian/indigenous person lives on a reserve or not? Even if one does live on reserve there are still taxes to pay; just because this tax money is earmarked for Indian use, is no reason to complain. Even if a band/reserve is collecting taxes, the federal government get this money first and then gives it back to the reserve.
Having a status/treaty number only gives that person the legal right to be called a status Indian, under the laws of this country. My mother has her status number, but does not live on reserve. She pays her taxes just like the rest of the Canadian population, the only time that she is exempt is if she is buying services on reserve, and then there are still a mountian of legal loopholes to go through. She has also owned her own home for more than 30 thirty years. What does it matter if a so called successful aboriginal/native/indian/indigenous person has a status number or lives on reserve? The politics on some reserves make it immpossible for some to live there or even get basic funding for school. But that is neither here nor there. The point was that it is an offense question to ask of a person.

Human beings can change. Positions can become more nuanced and subtle. If Gordon Campbell starts showing signs he's actually a human being I'll start believing that his speech yesterday actually means something.

Harper clearly doesn't want to honour the Kelowna accord and his background and his brain trust are contra the very idea of Native title. He wants to shrink the federal government; concentrate on two to three things that are important to him and find a way to capture a majority after the next election. From his perspective he’s much happier if natives are a provincial ‘problem’ – he’ll try to use Federal funds to make sure the provinces have the headaches – just wait to see what happens in the negotiations over the fiscal imbalance.

Campbell doesn't want any Native protests during the next 3 1/2 years. He's losing ground to Carole Taylor within the Liberal caucus every day - why is this so difficult to understand? That little speech yesterday was just PR for Campbell in my opinion.

It has very little to do with the natives and their needs and their leaders are smart enough, I hope, not to buy it.

As for you characters who think the natives have such a great lifestyle in this province. Put up or shut up - how many of you would change places?

Neets: No offence was intended for sure, and I agree it doesn't matter a fig whether or not an Indian lives on or off reserve. With respect to a "status number", I don't believe in them and would prefer to just be Indian, (however I would love to be able to buy cigarettes for $20 a carton).

gasworks: As I said... the linking of land treaty negotiations with a partnering of First Nations with business interests with inside access to a corrupt government I think is a precarious minefield for First Nations ..and is creating divisions within First Nations....unfortunately, those divisions only serve to facilitate the agenda of corporate interests all the more.

I don't think either First Nations or the people of this province should accept trinkets of any kind from the Campbell government...whether or not First Nations does, is of course, completely up to them.

Sorry Lynn, but you lost me at Indian insiders partnering with "corrupt" government.

Therefore without putting words in your mouth, you think there is a giant conspiracy among certain Indians to hand land over to corporations, and Gordon Campbell is the anti-Christ in charge of it all?

I find that a difficult stretch (although ironically he did in fact start out his land development business at 666 Burrard Street)

lynn:
a little off topic ..but I had to share this

An 18 year old student attending the Chamber of Commerce lunch at the Hyatt with featured speaker
his Gordoness. ( This is right from the paper!)

From the Squamish Chief community newspaper.

My Lunch With the Premier

" Later, I began to ask myself, "Why is the premier of the province reporting to the Chamber of Commerce?" It was then that I realized what the Chamber really was. It wasn`t a club for rich people. It was a group of rich people. And all of these rich people cared, not about themselves, but about the future of British Columbia. They complement the government, and keep them in check; providing a strong voice for the economy of British Columbia. These people work hard, and I think they deserve a round of golf or a cocktail every now and then."

Campbell will sell out anyone and everyone. I am trying not to use the word that I feel decribes him best....His interests are never going to turn out to be anything good or noble....But at this point with only 4 years to go to the Olympics, and an election in 3? he figures he MUST be a good boy for a while. The world will be watching.
Hmmmm. I should start posting that UN report again...

okay, gasworks, cut the crap...and quit twisting my words...although I know you are enjoying your little diversionary game.

I never said anything about Indian insiders (your words, by the way) or conspiracies and you know it. It is the corporate and business interests with the inside access and you know that, too.

But you've known that all along, haven't you... since your first days posting here as the ubiquitous Mr. Jean Binette.

Twist away in the wind, Mr. Binnette... despite your attempts to muddy and distort my comments it's all really quite simple....

As Ed Deak so wisely posted on another thread...throughout history it's always only been about "the exploiters and the exploited."

too funny, bob the cat...the humanitarian efforts of the Chamber of Commerce never cease to amaze me. ;-)

How appropriate bob the cat.

This is right from the horse's mouth.

I too had the "honour" of having dinner with the Premier one evening.

It was way back at his first post budget speech dinner in February of 2003 which was hosted by the Chilliwack Chamber of Commerce with cocktails at 6:00 p.m. and all the bigwigs were out for the occasion.

Later I began to ask myself why the Premier hadn't cautioned any of the half-swacked invited guests about the dangers of drinking and driving.

As I recall many of them looked quite tipsy but still managed to weave their way right past the many police who were guarding the gates from the HEU hordes located just outside the parking lot .

A few days later the Premier officially met with Louise Knox and promised to unveil new proposals to reduce drunk driving on B.C. roads.

That's one reason I don't trust him and would prefer a new Premier to negotiating with Indian's.

gasworks:

If I may, at one time there was a reserve in Alberta which was the richest reserve in Canada, yet it had the poorest people. The money obviously did not go to the hoi polloi. Hence "insiders" (aka fraud artists).

From the same paper

" Local government officials in the Sea to Sky corridor this week spoke with one voice in condemning new provincial legislation aimed at ursurping the authority of municipal and regional governments over zoning for independant power projects (IPPS) on Crown land in B.C." (Bill 30)

The natives here have signed on as "partners" with Ledcor for private power generation.

"Last year, the SLRD (Squamish Lilooet) board voted to reject an application for zoning from the Ashlu IPP proponent, Ledcor Power Inc., after the community expressed strong opposition on the grounds the Ashlu is one of the most popular rivers in B.C. for white water canoe and kayak enthusiasts."

Get This

Hows this for newspeak: "If its being portrayed as something that will remove any power of local government, thats wrong," Neufeld said.
(Richard Neufeld, Minister of Energy and Mines)
" What it will do is compile all that input and information and place it before one decision maker."

Hmmm....wonder who will be the "decider"?
The CEO?

NDN_Coach wrote:

bungling beaurocratic mess that seeks to keep Aboriginal people oppressed.

A social worker friend who worked in a small arctic village for a while told me of her experiences. Ottawa decided to provide new housing. Ottawa bureaucrats didn't bother talking to the people who would live in the housing. They didn't accept input from social workers who lived in the village. Ottawa built the housing with expensive wall-to-wall carpets in every room.

Seal meat was a basic part of the local diet. People in the village slaughtered seals and chopped-up the meat inside their homes. The new carpets didn't look too good with bloodstains all over them. Didn't smell very nice either.

If the Ottawa bureaucrats had bothered to seek input on house design, they would have been asked to provide a bare cement area with sloped floor, a drain and a hose for the purpose of chopping-up seal carcasses and cleaning up afterwards.

Ottawa bureaucrats seem to have a thing for wasting money on carpets. They spent millions of dollars putting brand new expensive carpets throughout Pearson Airport about 6 months before demolishing the place. Maybe someone in the carpet business has been making political campaign contributions.

hannibal wrote:

want to do away with FN's culture entirely and assimilate all of the people into cities.

A recent survey showed 85% of city dwellers are hoping to leave the city and live more of a village lifestyle within the next 20 years. It's pretty funny to read the reasons put forth about why city life is better. City culture is often at the forefront.

Highbrows claim those who live in villages are Philistines, missing out on the most important things in life. But why would anyone want to live packed-together like chickens on a factory farm just so they can go to a theatre and watch anorexic weirdos prancing around on the stage in their long underwear with their noses in the air pretending to be swans? No matter how hard they try, the poseurs will never be as graceful as real swans.

bob the cat - Now that sounds like a newspaper publishing useful information. I hope it's fact based and they pointed out the crooked one's. Otherwise, what's wrong with an Indians partnering with whatever slime they wish?

Most of the time Neufeld doesn't know what he's talking about, old or new, (especially when it comes to energy)

Lynn: I think I will just ignore you if you don't mind.

We are getting well off the subject but I can't resist these comments.

I used to fly in the high artic fairly often.

We were bunking in one hostel in Inuvic, as the Royals we had a long were in the other one. I met a government worker showing an elder how the cold water tap in the sink worked. I asked did she get to see the hot one work as well. The answer I got was. "We have to move slowly with these people". I suggested anyone who could live on the ice for years is probrably sharp enough to under stand a sink and toilet if shown once how they worked. How demeaning can they get.
Another time in Yellowknife I was told its easy to see which were the Ottawa folks. They were the ones who went up for around three weeks, had gorgeous parkas and sashes and beaded mucklucks. After a few weeks they were artic experts and went down south to write a book.

I spent a lot of time in 10 years hanging around treaty tables and met a hard working group from the fed, the provinces and the first nations involved. Why were we there? A lot of non first nations people live on land set aside in BC, we had interests too and supported the treaty process as a way to sort out a lot of things. Land management, laws, accountability and so on. The honour of the Crown was raised often. People signed things and they were honour bound to keep their word.

We met some very sharp dedicated first nations folks and thy now feel shafted by the Federal bunch.

ever notice how Gordo & Harpo have the same evil smirk when they lie.

DPL
Have you ever read Kabloona by Gontran de Poncins?

I recommend it. Highly.

No I hadn't BC Dude. Do you have to look at them crosseyed?

gasworks
Not at all. Catching them lying is never a problem either.

So when was the last time you caught one lying through his teeth, and what do you do about it?

OH! how my heart yearns for my dearly departed Clubofrome.

Whenever people complain about the chickenfeed benefits given to First Nations over the years, they should be asked, how much Canada, or any other colonizing power, would have had to pay for the expropriatioon of the lands, had they been owned by Weyerheauser, or Canfor, or the Rockefellers ? The peresent expropriations for parks etc. are good guidelines to the real values.

As far I'm concerned, whatever is paid now doesn't even come close to a fraction of regular, business dividends, which the payments and benefits really should be to shareholders, or the owners of properties.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

You're right of course Ed - But would there be any leftover "chickenfeed", (especially if you were forced out of your own backdoor).

I don't think the dividend formula works and there are 100 million or so reasons not to hand the checkbook over to the Premier. As I understand it he thinks we shouldn't know where the money goes.

Harpo and Gordo are cut from the same bolt of cloth .
Gordo is trying to buy of the FN's with a bunch of rhetoric and nothing more .
Personally I hope the FN's blockade all access on the sea to sky highway and keep it locked up for months putting the Government(?) squarely behind the eight ball .
I don't think the international community will be to pleased when they find out that the Governements'renegged on a good deal that only began to address the inequities suffered by FN people in this country .
Bring 'em to their knees until they sign the accord and actually put real money into the programs that were promised by the Liberal's.
Of course Flanagans answer would be to give the FN's a bunch of diseased blankets .

[gasworks: (however I would love to be able to buy cigarettes for $20 a carton).]

So would I, the going rate for the cheapest brand of smokes on reserve is $36.00, it goes up from there.
However on the other side of the coin, having your own status or treaty number does signify that you are a recognized Indian person, something that some people wait all their lives for, thanks to the past policies of Department of Indian and Northern Affairs.

Gordo is trying to buy off the FN's with a bunch of rhetoric and nothing more .

I don't think the international community will be too pleased when they find out that the Governements'renegged on a good deal that only began to address the inequities suffered by FN people in this country .

Corrections

Sheesh ! Like that isn't insulting .
Oh,here you go FN person have a number so we can keep track of you and your money .
$36.00, is still a lot cheaper than the $75.00, per carton I pay for cigs .
I don't begrudge the FN's though they are entitled to it as tobacco is a ceremonial part of their culture .

JACK'S,

Wow, best of both worlds? Amazing stuff. I've had it pretty good only because my parents did the best they could in raising me and making sure I read a minimum of 30 minutes a day from the time I was in grade 1, supporting me through tough times in school, and by being good role models who worked and taught me my culture and to be proud of myself and respect myself.

I can't speak on behalf of the thousands of my brothers and sisters, who were forcilby put into internment camps, that we like to call residential schools in the great white north, had to endure all sorts of crap, and try to make it the best they could in spite of enduring conditions akin to the Hanoi Hilton. I never had to walk that road, so I'm in no condition to speak on behalf of it. It's an old value known as don't judge me till you walked a mile in my shoes.

However, I know that I would consider myself fairly successful in the fact that I've made it in this society, in spite of bigots like you, who automatically assume that my life was/is easy merely because of my DNA and culture. Sad Sad Sad!

People like you have constantly tried to tell me I was a token, that I wasn't smart enough, or that I had an easy life. Nice little psychological ploy I Guess, but after reading Viktor Frankl's work, I knew my meaning in this world.

And Gasworks, I don't live on reserve. Ha ha ha, I'm probably your neighbour. I don't smoke, so I can't comment on the smokes.

It's only insulting depending which side of the fence you are sitting on. Imagine, being raised by a parent who is aboriginal, but because of sexist laws, was not recognized as a status Indian, because of the marriage of their female mother (or grandmother) to a white guy. You still face the same discrimination, the racist attitudes as a status Indian, but none of the entitlement of being an Indian that goes with it. My great- grandmother never married her white English husband, but her children were denied recognition as Indian people, even though they had the colouring and were raised as Indian children. (They were among the lucky ones that didn’t have to attend residential school- their father was white). It is ridiculous how the government past and present policies decide who is or isn’t an Indian. It should be up to the person if they want to declare themselves Aboriginal or not.

There's a good solution for $75. carton stinksticks. Stop buying them.

I stopped when a package was .37 cents and when I added it up, that was back in '63, I realized that I was wasting about 2 weeks of my earnings per year on that idiocy, just to stink up my house and ruin my health.

Ed Deak.

Cycling Commuter:

I think the Royal Canadian Air Farce did a skit on that kind of thing, using Kashechewan Reserve's bad water. The bureaucrat ended up authorizing a subway system from Toronto to the reserve, as there were funds for this, but not for water treatment.

Thank you Alcibiades- I was trying to remember that bit of racism Campbell tried with that so called referendum. Talk about needing a "clarity act".
How interesting indeed that this lying criminal is now so concerned about our aboriginal citizens. Quite the switch, and yes, I too smell a very large and ugly rodent...

hannibal, attitudes like will get you no where. Aboriginal/first nations/native/Indian or indigenous people are entitled to the paltry reduction they receive on tax exempt purchases. As was state before in an above posting, the little that the Indigenous people of this continent were paid for their lands is/was nothing. It does no harm to let them have items for no taxes when taxes go to a government that is working on stolen land. When I was a small child, my mother bought me a shirt with the outline of this province on it and underneath it said “BC is Indian Land.” This is still true today, almost thirty years later. To date there are under a handful of treaties in this province, much of BC still needs to compensated for. I for one would like to see hope in the premiers’ speech, he has changed his policies regarding Aboriginal people since he first took office. The same person who demanded the referendum, is not the same premier that we have today. Being that I like to believe the best in people, I hope it was more of personal change rather than just economic persuasion that made him see the light. After witnessing ol’Gordo’s character for the last decade or so, I am more likely to think that this was more to do with economics rather than a personal epiphany. But this speech is not the first we have seen of Gordo’s change of heart towards First Nations. He did a remarkable job at the Kelowna summit, and it shouldn’t be forgotten.
This is in no means I personally support him or his government. Thanks to the wondrous cut backs, and raised tuition fees I now owe thousand upon thousands of dollars for my great education. His government is responsible for making it impossible for single parent families to survive. The fact of the matter, Gordo is a politician, through and through, and he will continue to try and sell off this province before he is voted out of office.

Thanks for the suggestion ALCIBLADES, I'll check around to see if I can find the article you mentioned.
The talk about status cards and price of cigarettes folks are talking about really has nothing to do with Gordo, or any provincila government. The feds decided years ago to not tax on "land set aside" Yes the status card is insulting, yes some of us understand the problems on land set aside,heck a lot of us live ther, and there are only two ways to sort out the mess that gets more complicated as court decisions are made.

The Indian Act goes away with modern treaties except the part defining just who is a Indian and has rights under the bundle or rights negotiated by the three parties.

A option is modify the Indian Act which is fairly hard to do. Another is do nothing and the court cases, the uncertainty, lack of business ventures and so on.

The Supreme Court of Canaa has said. " you get title by proving it in court or you negotiate." The court suggested negotiate . For that reason, any thinking person will go that route. But they won't if they don't trust the fed or provincial goverments, and right now, who of us would?

A number of years ago many people made presentations to the standing Committee concerning the Nisga'a and how to speed things up. It's in Hansard and I'm quite proud to have made a presentation for Occupiers of Land Set aside, supporting the Nisga'a and any other modern treaty.

DPL
It's actually a book. First published in 1941 by a Frenchman called de Poncins. It tells the story of his time spent with the Inuit travelling and living with them across the Canadian north as far as King William Land.

His story begins in 1938 when he flies out of Fort McMurray having hitched a ride with Oblate Bishop Breynat.

It is, I think, the best thing I've ever read about the Inuit (he calls them Eskimo of course) and the way they lived before white culture changed their way of life forever.

I doubt if it is still in print. Certainly, it would be available at the Library; you might pick up a copy at a second hand bookstore if you were lucky.

Your post about flying into the high Arctic brought it to mind.

Why did The Tyee post Campbell's speech?

I thought we had a progressive media outlet here, but when it comes to aboriginal issues The Tyee's editorial decisions often seem rather unprogressive.

Where is the analysis of this speech? Isn't this what the media is susposed to do? Why is it up to commenters like Lynn and NDN Teacher to provide the analysis?

Why not add a First Nations columnists to The Tyee? Anyone agree?

asher
I see your point. On the other hand, posting the actual words the premier used more or less contiguously with his delivery of the speech, does afford readers an opportunity to consider what Mr. Campbell was saying without the ‘filter’ of media analysis. To provide, almost in real time, an opportunity to consider what he has said in a context uncoloured by opinions other than that of Tyee regulars themselves.

Some of us have, as you noted, taken the liberty of suggesting that there may be more to the Premier’s speech than the actual words he has used. For my own part, I have been spending some considerable time trying to understand, in the context of the actual record and traditions of the B C Liberal Party, why opposition members should, knowing this record too, have availed themselves so uncritically of this opportunity to stand in their places and deliver a ‘standing ovation’.

Was this because it would have been politically incorrect to sit on their hands after such a speech? Because they wished to associate themselves with sentiments expressed by the premier? Or because they feared the consequences, politically, of appearing to disagree with Premier Campbell on the subject at hand?

For my own part, and especially after having considered several slightly more disingenuous motivations for the Premier’s actions, I have come to the conclusion that Ms James may soon have cause to disavow her uncritical appraisal of Premier Campbell’s little address. She could well have criticized the Prime Minister’s disinclination to honour the commitment of the federal government to the implementation of the Kelowna Accord without pretending that the Premier’s lip service to a set of rhetorical goals was anything other than the Provincial Liberal party’s usual and highly compromised sophistry.

There is, duly noted by some commentators above, such a history of double dealing by this province and its several representatives toward First Nations’ aspirations for their people that I cannot avoid the conclusion that all British Columbians should be very careful before they take these words at their face value.

"I am saddened and dismayed that the
Chretien government transferred 62 hectares of former CFB Chilliwack property to the Canada Lands Company Ltd. on Dec. 14, 2001," Kelly said.

"Canada took this dishonourable
action even though this matter was before the federal court of Canada. We believe that the Department of National Defence is going to dishonour Chretien one more time before he takes his own walk in the snow."

Excellent Alcibiades, Disingenuous sums it up perfectly. Hopefully Neets and others will realize it is impossible to negotiate the honour of the crown

For an example of a Crown with no honour, one only has to take a look at the underhanded takeover of 300 acres of CFB lands in Chilliwack, which was engineered by an ex-Socred one potato in-the-soup Cabinet Minister, and his long-time friend and associate the Solicitor General back in 2003.

While "moving forward" with their historic private members bill pr401, the group even went so far as to involve the legislature in their complicity, by stating that the Soowahlie had no claim to the land in question because the matter had been "settled" in Supreme Court of Canada. (unless they were all inebriated to some degree, they would have to have known that all that had happened was the loss of a couple of procedural applications in the lower court).

One more reason I no longer trust the Premier.

Dear John,
Perhaps someone ought to inform Mr. Randy Hawes of the outstanding land claim so he may properly inform the Legislature in kind. The truth is the matter had never been to the Supreme Court of Canada as stated by him prior to his moving forward and pushing his historic private members bill through the house, and he most certainly should have known that, so I wonder where he received his information

Neets: Obviously you misconstrued the meaning of my post .
I was only stating that the FN's are entitled to their tax exemt status .
Personally I don't mind paying the exhorbitant tax on cigs as it is one more contribution to society as a whole .

I could not agree more. I believe that only genuine thing the premiere wanted from that accord was the capital to be placed in the hands of BC's FN people so that the money would be spent here. This would have created jobs and benefits for people on reserve. The good feelings could have lasted right through the next election, with the possibly of giving Liberals some FN votes that I believe went strongly in favour of the NDP in the last election. I know that the FN vote went NDP in my riding.

I hope that the people of the province don't forget that incredibly slanted sham of an opinion poll the Liberals foisted upon the First Nations soon after they were elected five years ago.

Whatever happened to self-determination for the FN's ?

I was heartened by Bill Graham's statement to the Liberal convention it Totonto .

"The Liberal majority in the Senate can be counted on to slow Prime Minister Stephen Harper's right-wing agenda while the Liberal party rebuilds with a new leader", says Bill Graham, the party's interim chief.

"Today, we currently have 102 MPs and 65 senators all mobilized to defend the values that everybody in this room believes in — values that we share with most Ontarians and other Canadians," he told the weekend convention of the Ontario wing of the federal party.

In a passionate speech to 1,500 federal Liberals jammed into the Sheraton Centre for their convention this weekend, Graham admitted that Liberal MPs now in the opposition benches are frustrated as they watch Harper move ahead with what he called "a short-sighted and mean-spirited agenda."

But "you can be sure that the voices of progressive Ontarians are being heard in the House and in the Senate," he stated.

[gasworks: Excellent Alcibiades, Disingenuous sums it up perfectly. Hopefully Neets and others will realize it is impossible to negotiate the honour of the crown
]
The problem with not negotiating with the crown is that there are no other alternatives that do not lead to violence. While, personally I do think that there should be more blockades, protests, etc., that is not how the current system responds positively. Ipperwash was a peaceful occupation, so was Sun Peaks, and of course Gustafan Lake was spiritual (religious) activity. Gustafan Lake is pet peeve of mine- there were elders, woman and children and the BC government of the day called in the army. Despite the outright lies propound in the media over this incident, the natives involved did not have a large cache of weapons, there were solely for a spiritual ceremony. That misunderstanding could have been avoided with one simple negotiator, but no call in the armored vehicles. At the same time, biker gangs in Ontario are setting off bombs in residential neighbourhoods, but are they calling in Canada’s most heavily (Legal) armed forces? No, the government just did that for the bunch of Natives in BC, and then later that summer at Ipperwash.
The fact is, since the referendum in BC, Gordo has changed his tune, he no longer demands that as a part of treaty negotiations that Indian tax exempt status be apart of the deal. Do I think this is because Gordo has seen the light? No, but he had a good Attorney General in Geoff Plant, who did understand the “Indian Problem” (tongue firmly planted in cheek) to an extent.
The question of whether I personally agree with treaty negotiation, in the current political climate, is no. I thoroughly disagree with the comprehensive land claims agreements where one would have to give up their legal status as Canadian Indians, in order to settle with the crown. Do I think that the government should make individual bands (artificial constructs created by the government to better manage Indians), instead of tribes, the answer again is no. But the whole point of the process of ol’Gordo’s speech was not to immediately fix the problems found in Aboriginal communities, that would take too much effort on his part, but to rather make him self look good to the international community. As a country we have a dismal history when we look at how aboriginal peoples have been treated. This is not just from my education, but rather having lived a part of this dismal history. Back to the question, can the crown be trusted in First Nation issues? Recent history and historical evidence suggest otherwise. The honour of the Crown is a joke, and has been for centuries. The Royal Proclamation of 1763, proves this without a doubt, the crowns intention was to not “molest or disturb” the nations or tribes found in North America. And while the somewhat young radical in me, desires more occupations, protests and road shut-downs, I know that this takes a huge mobilization of Aboriginal people, and frankly, many Native people are just too busy living to take part. I for one hope that my family’s band does not settle or negotiate with the crown at this point in time, I would rather they held out to see what the future has to offer.
Now does this clear up the misconception that I somehow believe in the honour of the Crown?

I wish I had more time to really get into this issue here, but I don't, so I'll more or less just restate my basic position, which I trot out here from time to time, typically around discussions of Quebec and Confederation.

First, this issue of First Nations self-determination and place in "Confederation", much a misnomer to here in time, parallels the problem of the larger Canadian "State structural issues" which involve Quebec. I think the current arrangement is lopsided and uneven, but especially lends itself to potentially disasterous "national chauvanisms" on all sides of the greater nation state equation, Anglo, French and Native. And thus this current "unresolved" relationship, the longer it drags on, lends itself to being a tool for creating divisions within the larger Canadian State that can lead, in my view, to feeding the country piecemeal to US Empire ambitions and domination of the nation. (And there are already those neoconservative elements rooted in the University of Calgary, The Fraser Institute, and other extreme right wing gathering points, some of whom we hear here from time to time, who are already working and plumping to do just that. Indeed, they already much see themselves as Amerikkkans.)

The reality is, however much "perceived" Anglo dominance within the "larger country" resents and resists it, perceiving that it should enjoy some kind of "special Victor's Rights" in the national debate, which it never actually fully secured, there is a need to resolve, once and for all, through an intense negotiation period, the relationship of the "three main national entities" that make up Canada, securing a "three nation states, within one country" model for the country that finally resolves the stressors working, here openly and there beneath the surface, to harden positions and drive deeper and deeper fracture lines along the main national lines of the country. (Though it may be that the Native Nations boundary lines may have to be something more like a patchwork quilt across the larger country. Though I would rather wait to hear their own ideas on that regard.)

All of us will arrive to it voluntarily and with relish to get on with a great "country building" business that can stand up to the pressures of a threatening US Imperialism to our South, or we will all be dragged kicking and screaming to the table anyway eventually, especially Anglo-Canada which to here has pretty much been able to call the shots, but is increaingly a population numerically and culturally in decline, save for more and more reliance on immigration, or the great national experiment we have called Canada will fail, and the pieces at least eventually absorbed, certainly much of Anglo Canada, into the insatiable PNAC maw of the US Empire.

Continued next post...

Continued from previous post...

Especially Anglo-Canada is loathe to face up squarely to the reality of a three nations within one country Canadian reality, and it is the degree to which they really harm the serious prospects of an uniquely "independant" Canada as a whole, and are possibly more or less content, rather than to deal with the three nations issue and the complexities therein that it would take to finally unify and invigourate all the national sectors of the Canadian state, to sit idly and watch everything slide south towards Amerikkka instead. (And that is rapidly occurring already, especially control of the national economy, which politics will inevitably follow, if we do not pull it up short here very quickly.)

It's a classis position of, if I can't have it all my way, then its no way, its the highway. Anglo Canada especially needs to show some willingness to compromise and move from this disunity creating position and to join a new "national initiative" to save the larger Canadian National Family.

Personally, I think it is doable. Even though the hour is already late. And in the process open up an opportunity to deal with other democratic issues of capitalism, democracy within the economy, and new, more inclusive models of political democracy which lets more elements, especially but not exclusively, from the working class and its radicals into the "power mix", as opposed to just the current mouthpieces for the "liberal" and "conservative" ruling class.

I for one would like to see hope in the premiers’ speech, he has changed his policies regarding Aboriginal people since he first took office. The same person who demanded the referendum, is not the same premier that we have today.

I disagree Neets, same stripes....

Neets,

Much enjoyed and found interesting and illuminating, your comments here. Hopefully we will hear more from you and the other Native voices here, on this and other issues, in the future.

I will try to get back here later today to participate more in this very important discussion, one of the major cornerstone issues, in my view, which touch on the major "internal" relationships that "have to", underpin the future of the larger Canadian State, assuming there is to be one-, as I say, in my view, a three nation one, brought down to us by the real, not imaginary history of the country or any national chauvanistic element of it.

Given the increasing strength of Native populations, they are a potentially really big shoe that is already dropping in this country. They are a voice that is not going to go away, but will only grow in power over the coming period.

I welcome it myself, and the opportunity it is going to compel on us to resolve what has too long already remained unresolved, and is part of what it is going to take to secure the larger Canadian State against the main "external" threat to it, coming from our South.

There is no "Canada" per se without Anglo-Canada, our First Nations or Quebec. Remove any one of those elements, if you can, and what you have is something else entirely. And we all need to face up to that. Yesterday.

"...but to rather make him self look good to the international community." Neet.

To which I would only add, especially during the lead up period to the Whistler Olympics. :-)

Sensible stuff, as usual, Coyote. Would that I had more confidence in the confidence man at the head of the government in Victoria so that I could accept that his recent rhetoric might actually indicate some real willingness to address these issues in this province in a way that would actually deliver the benefits of 'substantial' nationhood to more native communities - such as has been the case for the Nisga’a Nation.

On the other hand, given the current intransigence on the part of the Stephen Harper government to even address an already existing federal commitment to some kind of financial basis of moving toward a just final agreement among the parties that you refer to above, optimism is not in order. Having delivered a $1 billion reduction in corporate capital taxes going forward to the banks, the insurance industry, the oil and extractive industries in his first budget, the obvious and glaring comparison with the current federal allotment for native peoples is more than just depressing.

With the greatest of respect for Neets, Then I'm outa here

(No Neets, I don't think or believe you have any misconceptions regarding the "honour of the crown.

Neets
Being of a skeptical nature, and having learned from experience, I'd advise being a little careful of hoping for much from Mr. Campbell. For the sake of all our citizens I hope you're right. The unfortunate thing is that, even if events eventually do prove positive for the establishment of a real nation to nation relationship with the Crown - as envisaged in the Proclamation of 1763 - I have little reason to think it'll happen as long as the government in Ottawa is peopled by folks whose personal philosophy is founded and animated by the colonial and imperialistic values that move this current bunch. Their ideas are much more firmly ensconced in the corporate state than they are in any affection for the legitimate national aspirations of native peoples in this country.
As for your confidence in the former attorney general of this province, I'd suggest you should go back and study his statements a trifle more critically before you decide he's anything more than a fair-weather friend.
Good wishes in any case. I’ll cross my fingers and keep my powder dry.

[commentor: Coyote
Neets,

Much enjoyed and found interesting and illuminating, your comments here. Hopefully we will hear more from you and the other Native voices here, on this and other issues, in the future.
]
Coyote, to clear up a misconception, technically I am not considered an Aboriginal person. My mother and her brothers are legal status Indians according to the government, but she will never pass that status on to her children. My father was a white/anglo Canadian, and therefore according to the strict rules of the Indian Act, I am not an Indian person. As per usual, the government does not care how a person was raised or how they identify themselves. I am proud to of mixed ancestry, it gives me another view of the world, which is totally different from the Anglo/Eruocentric Canadian experience. Although I could identify myself as Metis, this too would be an inapproriate title for me to assume. Being Metis consists more of just having mixed parantage, but rather having roots in a Metis settlement and with Red River. While I do not meet these qualifications, my son does. In society at large, I am often mistakely assumed to just be like any other "white" Canadian, but the truth is that I am not, and choose not to be just another "white-guy".
What I can offer is the experiences of living within a mixed culture, and of course the ever present mutterings of my motehr (who started our legal- bureaucratic Indian law education at a very young age)and an education at an university that was/is geared to first nations peoples and content. I am still not technically qualified to be called a Native voice. I hope soon other Native people do post here, beseides my mother (lol). But for the most part all I can offer is an alternative viewpoint to the Eurocentric majority.
Neets

Why not just call yourself an Indian? - I do.

[commentor: gasworksposted: 13 Minutes AgoWhy not just call yourself an Indian? - I do. ]

LOL- because that offends many native people who actually have the skin colour to prove it.

That's too bad, it wouldn't offend any Indians I know.

Neets:You still haven't told me what part of my post you took exception to.

Ohmygawd
I'm sure you're out there somewhere. You might enjoy this:
http://www.rrj.ca/issue/2006/spring/

High: G I know the link was for someone else but inquisitive minds want to know .
Which article are you referencing ?
Thanks

It's an appreciation of Neil Young's father Scott.
Enjoy/

Wow, this might be the most articulate, intellectual forum yet. Asher's and Alcibiades'
exchange over the wisdom of Tyee doing the premier's speech was particular excellent. G.West's no slouch, either.

(I know, who made me the judge?)

May I suggest, humbly, though that those trying to claim membership into a certain racial classification remember that culture is not genetically inheritable.

The idea was discredited around the turn of the last century. In evolution theory it was known as Lamarkianism or the hypothesis of "acquired characteristics." Darwin believed in it, and it actually was the basis of his entire theory of evolution, which he presented in his "The Origin of Species." However, Darwin was wrong.

What this means is that although most of us fantasise that, because of our physical appearance, we have some inalienable right to assume that a particular culture is part of some inalienable heritage...It's...well.. uh just a pile of nonsense. Another myth!

We do inherit our physical appearance from our parents and ancestors, but that's about it, unless they tried to keep other groups out of their gene pool because of religious or other types of chauvinism--in which case they set themselves up for the genetic illnesses caused by inbreeding.

there's more interesting stuff in the Ryerson Journalism Review too, check it out, you might enjoy other articles besides that one.
cheers

Yea, G I had the very great priviledge of working for Scott Young at the Globe&Mail when I was very young as a copyboy .
Nicest man . I remember him well .

Truman Translation - we're all "white" trash, like it or not? or, if looks like a Darwin duck...

hannibal
That must have been great. You must have stories!!

Have you read his book, Neil and Me, which is also wonderful - an ode written by one man about his best friend who just happened to be his famous son?
Truly memorable.
SO often journalism today fails to meet any standards other than the bottom line. Why, I think, places like this are maybe more and more important.
later - the sun is truly shining now and shouldn't be wasted.

NDN_Coach

OK - you made it in the white man's world but is it right to say that it's too tough out there for natives to make it as you did? Is it too much to expect?
What about income taxes - what about free education especially at university level?

I admit there have been injustices in the past. In the past things were different. One native chief recently stated that Natives deserve claim to 80% of present-day BC. Is that logical or reasonable? Does a statement like that further his cause?

I suppose all it does is make bigots like me.

[hannibalposted: 2 Hours AgoNeets:You still haven't told me what part of my post you took exception to.]

I am not sure what your are refering to, I think we covered in above postings.

Can some please explain to me where Jack gets his ideas of free education and no income taxes? The tax exempt status of “status” Indian people is supposedly have are fraught with conditions. If you are a status Indian (have a government status # or treaty #, when you work on a reserve (land set aside by various federal and provincial governments in the past) you are exempt income taxes. Also if a status Indian purchases any goods on an Indian Reserve, they are exempt from the provincial and federal sales taxes. This does not include being exempt from local band taxes.(Yes, heaven forbid some Indians are learning how to charge their taxes!!) Since the total aboriginal population in Canada is between 4 to 6% of the whole Canadian population, this does not amount to very much money in the whole scheme of things. Also, as that Canada has never paid for their taking of this land, and as such owes a fiduciary responsibility to the Aboriginal people of this country. Even our Supreme Courts agree, starting with the Calder case (1972); Sparrow, and of course Delgamuukw. The final outcome of Delgamuukw even went on to suggest that perhaps it was the responsibility of the governments to negotiate with Aboriginal people.
If an Indian person does not have a status # or does not work on a reserve, he/she would pay income taxes just like the rest of Canadians.
As for the free education, what makes you think it is free? Countless generations have paid for this so called “free” education; I believe it was first called Residential school. You claim that this is in the past and has no effect on the present. I find this debatable. The past has always influenced the present and of course the future. Those who do not learn their history are condemned to repeat it. The government’s of Canada object was to annihilate entire cultures and societies from the face of the earth. Obviously, this object has not been achieved, but the government still has a responsibility to fixing the problems it caused and is still causing.

If anyone is interested, a listing of important Aboriginal law cases can be found at:

http://www.gov.bc.ca/arr/popt/landmark_court_cases/#Aboriginal_rights[/U]

http://www.waseskun.net/law.htm

and for the governments rules and laws regarding tax exempt status:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/aboriginals/indians-e.html

Thanks but no thanks Neets....

G West:
Thanks? I've bookmarked it and will go back to peruse. You are right again - I'm here 24/7. LOL Ta for now!

Jack's:

There ain't many white men can make it in the white man's world. The majority of us putter through, then die. Perhaps if we whities gave the native way of life a try..........we wouldn't need all those poppies from Afghanistan, the cocaine from Columbia, the crystal meth....and maybe not even marijuana.....

Good one, RickW. But the bigots will never get it. They's wired for only bigger, better, honkier-, even if all they ever really do all their lives, most of them, is walk about with their lips puckered up hovering about the bosses ass, cadaver white from never having seen the light of day.

Wannabes who never do get to be.

Could you explain this Rick? What exactly is 'the native way of life'? I've have no reason to believe that natives are any more or less susceptible to these things than us 'whities', or any other 'ies' for that matter. Are you claiming native culture is superior to others?

RickW said: " Perhaps if we whities gave the native way of life a try..........we wouldn't need all those poppies from Afghanistan, the cocaine from Columbia, the crystal meth....and maybe not even marijuana....."

First i have to say...Wow... What a brilliant site all...Thanks all!!

Yeah RickW, "perhaps" to be sure... The spiritually vacant culture that has appeared to have developed around us is pathetic.
Neocon earth enemy is as a religion unto it's own I think.

Do the FN's "get it" spiritually and culturally as well as connect many of the dots that cannot be connected through WM's culture...? I would say we have much to learn from the FN's people and I never want to lose the opprotunity to experience the lessons that lie within...for me or my children.

I also believe they have much to learn from the WM's culture, even if it includes what NOT to do...

Would absorbing in our culture more of the FN culture and spirituality help to curb our countries appetite for drugs...? Who knows...but I would venture to guess it wouldn't hurt...

Peace friends...

RTB

With the benefits it allows, there aren't many Natives who are not of the card-carrying status types. Although I don't know the requirements. My experience has been with the Canadian military hiring term employment. At the time, it created resentment with other term employees because, with no taxes, natives in effect were earning more than others.

Anyway, why should the government create incentives to NOT assimilate to the white man's world? When money is thrown at the native bands with little or no accountability, that is what our politicians are doing!

In conclusion, if I were a young native boy in today's world, I would channel all my efforts in becoming a 'card-carrying' lawyer and simply watch my money roll in from the endless legal shenanigans between Natives and government.

Wonderful site!!! Very good writers all!!! Wonderful give and take!!!!
Thanks all...

Jack's

Once again I cannot speak for all my brothers and sisters. However, based on what I know about trauma and stress, I'd say a lot of them are dealt such a bad hand, that it really is impossible for them to persevere. They needs tons of healing and my part in doing that is to give them a hand up when they need it.

Free education is a myth. If you receive any federal funding from INAC, you will disqualify yourself from students loans. The funding received is paltry as it is based on a formula from the 70's. Yes, I did receive funding, and I never abused it. I was also fortunate enough that the sawmill where I worked before I went to school hired me back each summer (They received a subsidy for my wages through HRDC).

I guess what I'm trying to say Jack's is that you can't look at a person and know their story. I don't look at every white person and think they're racist pigs looking to screw me. One, because racism is racism and I want no part of it. Secondly, I have a great grandfather who was Swedish, and if I hate white people, I hate him. When I was younger I had racist attitudes, and when I went to Sweden, I felt such guilt for saying racist things about white people.

I don't say this to be "one of the good ones" or "a credit to my people", but I say it to hopefully bring some healing that this entire nation needs.

Take care
Ben

Could someone please define FN culture? Weren't there many different FN cultures in North America at the time of European contact, varying from 'nation' to 'nation'? What cultural commonalities existed between FN people on Haida Gwai and those living in the Florida Keys? What do folks like RickW and Right to Bear believe can be learned from FN culture(s)?

fanshaw:
I'll tell you one thing that First Nations' examples ought to teach everyone: 1) Don't ever put out the welcome mat for foreign invaders; and
2) Don't assume you can count on government promises; and
3) If something seems too good to be true - it's probably a lie.

All very true, G, but the examples you cite are not unique to FN people. I learned #3 from my parents, #2 as a young adult and #1 from my ex-wife.

fanshaw,
On #1 I'd be interested to know if that was a lesson you learned from her - or experience you gained by dealing with her!

LOL

;-D

Sadly, G, the latter. First the invasion, then the occupation, followed by a siege resulting in a non-aggression pact.

Do you think the natives would be wise to hold out for a similar result? After all, the occupation period has been pretty protracted and negotiations have been going on for a while too. We'd have to come up with a name for that kind of resolution - any suggestions?
"Domestic Peace" perhaps.
8D

There is now way Gordo has under gone any "road to Damascus" conversion. You see, there is no evidence to support the fact, other than the image he is trying to so carefully craft around this speech. He continues to show no respect for the very things that helped to ravage First Nations culture...the decimation of social infrastructure and the destruction of the sustainability of the land....the destruction of both the communal and the community through a process of privatization. Campbell has demonstrated not a twit of respect for any of these...and his policies continue to reflect that....except his small token-gesture towards the Spirit Bear... which is all only really about image-casting for the Olympics... and trying to look like "a good boy" for the international image-driven marketplace.... as commentor, pale, above so aptly noted.

At issue here is a common bond we share with First Nations...and ironically it is about the loss of sovereignty....the threat of losing the ability to control our own destiny...the threat that corporate culture presents in its relentless attempt to privatize the natural world....so that issues of sovereignty for both of us become hopelessly obscured and effectively blurred into non-existence by the policies that Campbell and his government represent...and don't let his government off the hook on this..they are his greatest facilitators...they have stood up in the legislature ceaselessly, like good little soldiers... and cheered on every piece of regressive legislation this government has brought in.

It is corporations conspiring here, (despite gasworks attempt to blur the issue)... corporations who see the partnering process with First Nations as a business opportunity of the first order...with the benefit of little public scrutiny under the protective process of treaty negotiation..and with oh-so-helpful friends in government only too willing to facilitate the co-operative spirit of these ventures.

Among all of us interested in preventing the privatization of the natural world, in the true sense of what is defined as real wealth ...among all of us, hopefully, there will be a common bond forged that will strongly oppose the artificial definition of wealth embodied in corporate culture and in the policies of the present government.

in first sentence ...should read "no way"

I figure it this way, G: white people jerked FN people around for about 300 years. Following the adoption of the Charter in 1982 and the Supreme Court decisions cited above, some white people started to feel jerked around by FN people. I find that amusing. Perhaps in another 280 years or so we'll have this all sorted out.

I wouldn't presume to advise FN people on what their negotiating objectives should be or how best to acheive them.

Me neither, fanshaw, just hope some 'domestic peace' can be achievable somewhere down the line – 280 years eh! I won't be holding my breath that Gord and his buddies will be here to deliver it then.

The difficulty is of course that your (and a lot of others) problem number 1 at least started with a fair amount of mutual goodwill –not sure that obtained very often in the case of Europeans and First Nations.

So Lynn... if this is all mumbo-jumbo coming from Gordon Campbell... just how do we get that public because until there is something concrete to work with, the native position can only be to believe what he says and work with that... they're stuck until he stumbles over himself.

I'm still wondering about the promise to fulfill this for all British Columbians. He seems to only represent the HAVE not the have nots. Honour of the crown. In Canada that means the Governments that break Promisese faster than a cow breaks wind.

Greetings,

As a longtime listserv member on a variety of lists, some articulate, I too wish to express appreciation for the (mostly) thoughtful commentary on Campbell's speech. (I've seen bits of commentary or forums of this type, but never followed an entire thread in this way.)

I have gotten in trouble more than once for "PC" type remarks or questions. Example, when I took a colleague to task recently(privately) for using the phrase, "the natives are restless", which I found offensive given its connotation from colonial times (or are we still in colonial times, I digress). The comment was made in a meeting of several people at our school, including our FN SW (support worker). She (FNSW) did not fuss (I asked her later, it was "oh well..."), but I felt it would be helpful if all of us cleaned up our language in this respect: I'd like others to help me clean up mine. Example also, haven't we all quit calling Brazil Nuts "niggertoes", long ago?

Anyway, it is because of my confusion and doubts around these issues that I found the rather lengthy thread (I'm home, sick) of great interest.

Sometimes I think "everyone" just has to become a "post-modern individual". I am a great defender of 'whatever it takes' to recompense for historical wrongs (the extent of which most of my colleagues are unaware). And I like the "idea" that we will have cultural diversity and traditional... "stuff" (languages, dances, mindsets, what have you). But it seems we're all in this same soup now, and diversity will abound (and must be supported, each has hir own path).... I think it was Neil Bissoondath who wrote on this topic -- the inherent problem with supporting multiculturalism -- and took some flak for that.

I don't know the answers; I just think it's interesting (and perplexing).
Thanks to everyone for insightful commentary. Neets and other FN folks, I'd be happy to hear your view on the PC issue I just spoke of. When I relayed the tale to friends, I was in some cases harrumphed as being "overly PC" -- but this was primarily from American friends, and I recognize our cultural take is a bit different. Didn't we rename all those old place-name "squaw" references, due to the unfortunate connotation the word had taken on?

Like some, I'd *like* to think Campbell has suddenly seen the light of consensus building and honouring others' paths, but given 2008 then 2010, as pointed out.... And my own experience in the education system... well, you know. It's hard to be enthusiastic.

Thanks,

LMHR

The surviving FN people from the Resedential schools get 30grand each but the lawyers get close to 100 million?
Campbells MLA, MPS, are all a bunch of Cowards they originally were elected by the people but who are whipped by Gordo w/the threat of walking the plank.
Who or What is the "Crown"?
Corporations run this country and are just waiting to exployet the FN people out of their land.
How do we the people kick these Vermin out?

I think that's giving way too much power to Mr. Campbell....unless of course FN plants a few martinis in his path. ;-)

Begin to follow the money trail...ask who is profiting from these co-operative ventures and where they politically reside.

Bully policies like those of the neo-cons and exemplified by the Campbell government are policies of weakness, mean-spirited policies that reveal their proponents weakness of character.... because they are not life-affirming policies and they are not policies based on the real definition of wealth, which of course,...is about air to breathe, water to drink...life to be lived...and a level of sustenance in all things.

The policies of the BC Liberals show clearly that they care not a twit for real sustainability nor for real quality of life...their system of greed and imaginary capital is based only on their own weaknesses.

What First Nations actually do is up to them...it will depend on their leadership and whether they are paying attention...the very qualities lacking outside of First Nations as well... and that have allowed the neo-cons to slither all too easily into power all over the world.

Since for the most part we have both a gutless and complicit media....if these common bonds are to be forged...they are going to have to be forged between one person to another, linking hands, asking questions and speaking up... both inside ond outside of First Nations.

BC Dude: I agree, there is definitely a need for the people to take back the power of the Crown ...Coyote and Peter Dimitrov both interesting to read in this regard.

Though things may not be quite as stuck as they seem.... as we see in Bolivia's move to bring its gas industry under state control...and today in Venezuela, Chavez just doubled the tax foreign oil companies operating in Venezuela will pay. The profits to be used in the building of social housing.

"But why would anyone want to live packed-together like chickens on a factory farm just so they can go to a theatre and watch anorexic weirdos prancing around on the stage in their long underwear with their noses in the air pretending to be swans? No matter how hard they try, the poseurs will never be as graceful as real swans."

Why do you hate culture CC? First Shakespeare, now this? Some people hate what they don't understand. Is that the explanation?

I'd say Canada Day 2006, July 1st would be a very good day for all First Nations to simply break out of the apartheid reservations, leave all that bad water and bleak govt. housing behind for a while, and go reclaim the lands of their ancestors. But do it all at once folks, so there isn't enough armoured vehicles and mounties to go around. Then we'll see Gordo's true blue colours.

It's a taboo subject, the majority of you posters seem content with the same old same old.
I don't know it it's a PC thing, but it sure isn't helping FN one little bit. Original ideas a lacking. The only see that you want to throw more money at the problem.
I've seen before on this site comments that claim that the wealthy are mainly rich because of flipping real estate. Well how about giving FN their reserve land and let them make a fortune from it.
Wouldn't this be a better way of helping these people ?

Hey CLueless:
I'd like to find a way to 'help out' your kind of people - you are such a pleasant and predictable source of comic relief.

I made a comment at the breakfast table this morning to the effect that I thought that maybe Campbell had finally seen the light and was going to do something constructive for first nations people. My 15 year old son gave me an exasperated look and asked "Dad, do you know how to tell when Gordon Campbell is lying? His lips are moving".

amen... there is hope for the future. kispiox, you have a very perceptive son. :-)

Don't be silly Kispiox.

It was the Dummy's lips that were moving.

lynn said: "
Among all of us interested in preventing the privatization of the natural world, in the true sense of what is defined as real wealth ...among all of us, hopefully, there will be a common bond forged that will strongly oppose the artificial definition of wealth embodied in corporate culture and in the policies of the present government."

So well said lynn. This IS a cross-cultural interest of ALL those who love and want to want to protect our "Mother"... cool, thanks so much lynn.

G West said: "I'll tell you one thing that First Nations' examples ought to teach everyone: 1) Don't ever put out the welcome mat for foreign invaders; and
2) Don't assume you can count on government promises; and
3) If something seems too good to be true - it's probably a lie".

Right on G West on all 3 AND well defended :)

fanshaw said: "What do folks like RickW and Right to Bear believe can be learned from FN culture(s)?"

Well, honestly fanshaw, I have to work to keep this "short", but one thing that comes to mind is FN's thoughts of "Gratitude", and what it means to them. I feel that FN's culture promotes a sence of harmony with the natural world. They take from Mother Earth ONLY when necessary, and have been taught from a young age, to ALWAYS give back to "Her", in the highest sence. FN's people learn and practise the "spirit of Gratitude" by the physical\spiritual act of giving tobacco or sage to the earth after killing a deer for food and clothing. They are grateful for what they have and only take what they need to live, never more. They consider their responsibility to the future generations, by caring for the world they one day will leave them.

So much to say fanshaw relative to the lessons and teachings we can recieve from these people. The truth of THIS generation of ours, will be revealed to our children one day...and unless we learn, a sad day that will be. This is our generation, and this is our thanks...oilsand project destroying the boreal forests, old growth logging killing 1500 year old "elders of the forest" for flooring and other human use , pipeline developements promoting habitat decimation for thousands of miles, and oil tankers (eg.gateway project) set to go through sensitive, unique, and ecologically perfect areas creating a looming sence of disaster... These fanshaw, are WM's sence of "Gratitude" to Mother Earth...Do we have things yet other cultures can possibly teach us...?? ....What do you think??

Peace dude...

RTB

This is just shite. Talk is cheap. This is the guy who tried to scuttle the Nass settlement, the same guy who brought us that racist referendum twaddle. This is the gov't which just told people on Texada Island they can't ban fish farms near and around their island home, that all decisions will be made by water-land-and-air and local opinions or concerns don't matter a fig.

He's just grandstanding and making a big play for some positive press from the main stream media, trying to make Paulie (ships registered in Liberia to avoid canadian taxes and canadian employment standards) look good. It's eye candy of the most egregious and opportunistic sort. He's worried about the "honour of the Crown"? The guy who cancels legal contracts is worried about honour? The guy who has gutted education, who has wrecked unions, who has cut funding to hospitals, to foster kids, to welfare is worried about honour?

He wouldn't know honour if it jumped up and bit him on the back of the neck.

You KNOW he's lying...his lips are moving!

He's miffed because he had hoped some of that money would stick to the fingers of the provincial LiEbral party!

and when ARE basi-virk going on trial? ANd why the secrecy? Talk about the honour of the crown...

And I thought Lynn was the Queen of Allegations...

Thanks RTB. I thought you might say something like that. I have always wondered about the accuracy of FN claims about their culture, not because I think they are dishonest, but because white people did such a thorough job of eradicating it. How much, if any, survived four or five generations of residential schools and the havoc they reeked on FN families and culture? Modern day FN people have been forced to piece together their history and culture from the dim memories of the elderly (not mystical sounding "elders") and the records kept by early white colonists.

Ah, the "Noble Savage" myth. The fact is that FN people never existed in sufficient numbers or reached the level of technological sophistication necessary to act otherwise. We have no idea what would have happened if Europeans had never arrived in North America, but how would First Nations have dealt with a burgeoning population, scarce resources and technological advances they would have doubtless made on their own (eg. metal tools). All of these things change cultures.

I have no idea why you believe this, but the FN people I know would find this laughable. A dead deer is meat for the winter and all the natives I know wear blue jeans and Nikes. I can cite countless examples of FN people NOT using every part from every animal they kill (viz. CBC's Dead Dog Cafe "Aboriginal Decorating Ideas: Unused Moose Parts", they had a lot of fun with this one) and I note it was FN people charged recently for trading in bald eagle parts.

Here's a story a co-worker told me (and he swears is true) that I think not only illustrates my point, but the FN people's incredible sense of humour.

My co-worker was in Anahim Lake and had to go to the local store. Out front were several older native men, enjoying the sunshine. One of these fellows had two rocks which he was banging together. My friend watched for a few moments before the old fellow looked up at him and said, "This is how my people used to make tools many years ago." And then after the perfect pause he added, "The anthropologist showed me this."

I’ve seen these kinds of arguments before fanshaw. I’m not sure you, or I, really ought to get into them.

There is a group of historians and cultural anthropologists who have gone out of their way to attack what they see as the myth of Rousseau’s ‘Noble Savage’ by collecting evidence that pre-contact native societies actually did ‘alter’ their environment in significant ways including various kinds of agriculture, things like burning the prairie and even controlled burns in forests to clear undergrowth. There is a considerable debate about this, and the implication it has for historiography in general.

On the other side of the coin is a strong effort by some other historians which suggest that the six nations confederacy operated according to principles which became an important part of the original constitution of the United States. Other historians from this school study the character of native myths and religions and emphasize very cogently how relations between our native citizen's ancestors and the natural world were very different and unique and how they did, on balance, have a very special way of relating to the world around them.

The one thing I do know for sure is that destroying the idea of North America’s indigenous peoples unique relationship with the land is a fundamental part of the neoconservative effort to rationalize taking that land – or permitting it to be sold to the highest bidder. Thereby forcing First Nations people to abandon their culture, their traditions and their customs (or to keep them as nothing more than quaint artifacts) and to integrate themselves seamlessly (or not) with the dominant European society that neo conmen see as the herald of the on marching advance of colonization and ‘progress’.

I would suggest that your friend’s little tale about the Indian and the stones was a pretty sophisticated satire, on the old Indian’s part, of what he thought of western culture and anthropologists.

This is a complicated area. I’d actually prefer to avoid any further comment because I don’t think it’s really my place. My people have already done enough harm – First Nations folks I know are more than capable of making their own case.

As for the fact that some first nations people have been involved in various kinds of criminality - even including the selling of eagle parts - why would that surprise anyone? Deracinated and hopeless people have always turned to crime throughout human history. The mystery is that so many wealthy capitalists with no real need to do so rob and steal and defraud the system so much more methodically.
Cheers.

Yikes RTB, wrong century!!! Maybe lay off the Zane Gray and Louis Lamour books for awhile. But wasn't this about Gordon Campbell and his hollow bullshit attempt at regaining the native votes he lost in the last election? I think Anne Cameron has him pegged perfectly,

The man is as shallow as a martini glass and just as see through!

fanshaw said: "I have no idea why you believe this,"

Thank you for your comments fanshaw, but I have no idea why you don't...

fanshaw said:"and I note it was FN people charged recently for trading in bald eagle parts".

fanshaw, you and I both know there are clear exceptions in ALL cultures and societies. The whipped, broken, and corrupt exist everywhere...but when we see a people intent upon healing a wounded past and finding good placement in the present day world, at the same time rediscovering their spiritual, and cultural roots..I would suggest considering the harm done to these people in the past, clearly we are obligated do everything we can to encourage, and support them in the present...

I would suggest with all due respect fanshaw that even the "peices" of this accumulated knowledge of mankind through oral history, written, or otherwise... still holds within it, treasures of information on many levels of which possible we can learn from... An good example of this would be their traditional medicine, or simply put, their understanding and respect for the animals, and the natural world...

Peace man...

RTB

Thank you G West for your insightful comments... It seems all of which I either agree with or have learned from...

Peace bro.

RTB

"What is hateful...is not rebellion but the despotism which induces the rebellion; what is hateful are not rebels but the men, who, having the enjoyment of power, do not discharge the duties of power; they are the men who, having the power to redress wrongs, refuse to listen to the petitioners that are sent to them; they are the men who, when they are asked for a loaf, give a stone."

~ Sir Wilfrid Laurier

Amen to that. And do people forget that the Liberal's ran on FN policy which was borrowed from David Duke's and the KKK's shiboleth "One Law for All." And one of those anti-native organizers, Martyn Brown, became the government Chief or Staff.

And with The Tyee having hired Rafe Mair as a columnist, "The Mouth" of anti-Indian voices in BC, when I see The Tyee giving Campbell a voice here too, I really wonder about the editor's judgment on First Nations issues. There is something a little unnerving in a media outlet simply posting government speeches verbatim. Is Tyee wanting to serve as a mouthpiece for the government on FN issues?

As usual, Lynn's comments are bang on.

No one can look me in the eye and tell me that Mr. Campbell actually gives a sh#@t about anyone but himself and his cronies. He can keep fakin' it til hopefully he makes it, but somehow I doubt it.

Thank you GWest and RTB for your comments.

G,I think it is the position that you are taking that troubles me, i.e. that you and I shouldn't even be discussing these matters.

You have obviously spent more time than I finding out what historians and cultural anthropologists have been up to. They're a clever lot to be sure but I think the best they can come up with are educated guesses based on physical evidence, as the controversies you cite would seem to prove.

I wasn't aware that neo-cons favoured one side of the debate, but the fact they do doesn't invalidate it (unless of course they funded it, they're good at that). Nothing should ever be exempt from a health dose of skepticism and I continue to question the assertion the any group of people have a 'special' relationship with nature. 'Special' in the sense that it was or is unique to FN people, perhaps. But 'special' in the sense that it is somehow inherent or genetic, I think not. And if it is the first then I fear it is lost and gone forever after 300 years of colonial rule.

That's an interesting take you have on the anthropologist story and I never thought of it that way. Based on my admittedly scant knowledge of local FN people, the gentleman in question was most likely a residential school student and is more apt to have learned tool making from the band's anthropologist than his parents or grandparents.

RTB- I believe it because I see it. Perhaps FN peoples felt the way you describe in the past and perhaps some still do, but the attitude you describe is far from universal.

I could be a real dink and suggest that Buddhists are the only ones that truly respect animals because they don't kill them. Is the notion of being thankful and repectful of Mother Nature really all that different from a Christian offering thanks for God's bounty, mindful all the while of His charge to be a good steward of Creation?

fanshaw said: " ones that truly respect animals because they don't kill them."

Thanks again fanshaw for your comments... I was wondering, are you a vegitarian??

You know fanshaw, I am of the belief that there is ALWAYS something to learn from every culture and every society.
I am suggesting that all cultures would benifit from the sharing of information, unique beliefs and understandings recieved because of their personal and societal experiences in their past\present. Fanshaw, do you think it is possible that sharing of information from different cultures could help our societies to heal and be a healthier society?? Do you think that when it comes to decisions which affect our earth, maybe with this "sharing" we all will come to the table with a more complete and selfless understanding?? Do you fanshaw think that with a united effort we all could develope a larger sence of global responsiblity for when we make decisions on things affecting all communities on our earth ...

What are your thoughts on discarding information from other cultures which possibly holds the key\potential to help the earth my friend...??

Peace fanshaw...

RTB

fanshaw said: "RTB- I believe it because I see it."

fanshaw, there is way more to being fully human then just what you see...RTB

fanshaw:

Do a little digging. Check out what FN did before white man cometh. I ain't sayin' their lives were "ideal" or "idyllic". But generally, (and for example) they abhorred the missionary position, which says quite a lot in itself.....

lynn (and all)"

Gordo (if he IS on the Road to Damascus) should be considering paying off the FN of BC at the same rate he loves to pay off Weyerhauser at al...........

It's always been a funny fantasy of mine to find someone who thinks land claims are a crock, get invited to their house, plant a flag on their front lawn, send their children to the private school of my choice, tell them they can live in the bathroom, and then sell their lawnmower, because they 'weren't using it' at that very second.

Now we're in a situation where the offspring of the thieves get to decide how to offer redress.

Just finished reading a great book called "Spoken Here" about the loss of indigenous languages. One of things that jumped out at me was the author's discovery that in one of the threatened languages (I don't remember if it was an Aboriginal (Australian) or a Native American one, sorry) a word used to describe a stupid person wasn't (as in English) dumb (mute) but rather deaf, as in can't/won't hear. It spoke of a wisdom that we might do well to emulate, and as good a reason as any to ensure the survival of as many cultures as possible.

Homogenization may be great for milk, but it's a disaster-in-waiting for humans IMO.

Well, that was rambling and probably off-topic to boot!

"Is the notion of being thankful and repectful of Mother Nature really all that different from a Christian offering thanks for God's bounty, mindful all the while of His charge to be a good steward of Creation?"

To quote the mighty D.O.A. and applicable to people of every creed and colour... talk minus action equals zero.

Absolutely.

Though...didn't Gordo privatize the Road to Damascus...with toll booths at both ends? ;-)

fanshaw
Couple of very quick points. I don't think you're a bad man, nor do I think you're one of those standing in the way of First Nations' legitimate aspirations for self determination so, I'll say this in the kindest way I can:

1. The suggestion that First Nations people who were trained in residential schools might have actually had any contact with any cultural anthropologists – let alone sympathetic ones while they were there is really too funny for words: Those schools were run by Christians who were, as you must be intelligent enough to know, single-mindedly dedicated to erasing language and tradition. I'll stick with my interpretation of what your friend related.

2. Why do I feel uncomfortable talking about what someone else's culture is all about? Perhaps it's something to do with the way I was brought up. I'd feel equally uncomfortable trying to describe how a woman must feel during childbirth - it's a land I can never visit. As much as I might think I can appreciate what it has meant to have your land stolen, your culture and language degraded and stamped out and your art turned into tchockes in museums and the art galleries of the wealthy, I know damn well I can't. I'll let my native brothers and sisters, if they'll be so kind as let me presume to call them that, speak for themselves. It's a question of respect - for me at least.

A respect which I really wish was at the centre of the speech that our Premier gave on our behalf the other day. Unfortunately, and I think we probably can agree on this, I don’t think the respect is there. I hope the opposition will wake up to this sooner rather than later; from what I know of First Nations people, they don’t need any waking up.

Cheers.

Lynn:

Ain't the Road to Damascus called Sea-to-Sky in this province? :~)

RTB,

No, I'm not and I'm not opposed to hunting.

I agree.

Yes, yes and yes.

fanshaw, there is way more to being fully human then just what you see...RTB

True, however I am not gullible. When someone tries to tell me that things are a certain way and all my senses tell me otherwise, then I think I have the right to ask a few questions. Such is the situation that pertains to FN people's relationship to nature and wildlife. Are the ones who live up to these ideals the 'real' Indians and the ones who don't 'faux' Indians? Or all they all Indians who have fundamental disagreements about just what that means?

Rick,

Lol. I wanted to be a missionary until I found out they didn't travel the world teaching people how to have sex. Get serious for a second though, Rick, and be careful not to believe everything you read. Do you really think that aboriginal people didn't 'discover' the missionary position on their own 1000s of years before the missionaries arrived? I have tried to check out how FN people lived pre-contact and that's part of my problem. FN people left no written records and contact with Europeans decimated their societies and cultures. The chain of oral history was broken by generations of residential schooling and other forms of genteel genocide. Any reports written by early explorers and settlers are tainted by cultural and religious chauvanism. Sadly, I just don't think there's much truth out there on this one.

GWest,

C'mon G, give me some credit. I know what went on in residential schools. I know people who went to residential schools and I have heard them speak about the experience. And I'm not just talking about the abuse that makes headlines, just the day to day reality of what it was like to be a scared little native kid, hundreds of miles and hundreds of days away from Mom and Dad, surrounded by people who told you everything about you was wrong. The gentleman in my story never saw an anthropologist or likely even heard of one until the local band hired one to help with their land claim a few years prior. The point of the story, sadly, is that FN people had to re-learn their own culture and history from imported white experts.

continued...

Point taken about childbirth, but I don't shy away from conversations about it and I note that each woman's experience is unique. Can a woman who pops them out with relative ease relate to a woman who was in labour for 48 hours? I also used the cop-out excuse, "I'll never get pregnant." to avoid thinking about the ethics of abortion.

To quote the mighty D.O.A. and applicable to people of every creed and colour... talk minus action equals zero.

Bingo, Stump! The whole 'stewardship' and 'husbandry' part of God's instruction manual don't even get lip service from most Christians while at the same time they are very big on having dominion over the earth.

[QUOTEcommentor: RickWposted: 7 Hours Agolynn (and all)"

Gordo (if he IS on the Road to Damascus) should be considering paying off the FN of BC at the same ]

What a wonderful idea, but would never happen....
As to questions of other FN peoples attitudes and thoughts, yet again let me stress, I can not speak for FN people, since I am too "white" for them. One of my direct parents may be legally recognized as an Indian, but I am not. Seeing as that my other parent was half English and half Scottish, I might be able to see the point- all those blonde, fair skinned Indians running around wreck it for the rest of the "real" Indians. It is a complicated legal definition and would rather not get into it. I can speak from my own experiences as a person who can and has bridged both cultures.

As for the incident described by LMHR, in reality what can be done to change the masses ingrained attitudes and thoughtless phrases? Most FN people are used to these type of comments and take them with a grain of salt. Would it surprise you to learn that FN people have just as equally anti-PC remarks about "white" people?

As an example when I am with family or other native people, no one cares about the use of the word "indian". It is only with "white" people who are too self conscious about PC that it is unacceptable. And don't forget that I can't go around calling all white people shema or moonieawl just because I feel like it. What is acceptable in with one group of people is not acceptable when in "mixed" company. (Please excuse the spelling mistakes in the above native words- I know how to say them- but no idea how they are spelt.)
As to the reason for this thread, as much as I wish to believe that Gordo has changed his stripes, I still think this speech was more benefit for the interanational community that he hopes will invest more in this province now that the "indian" problems has been quelled.
Yes it is frustrating that with each change of government there is a change in practices and policies regarding FN land claims. These changes set the bargaining back years, and once everyone is on the same page again, oopps another election (and new government) sets things back once again. Its a never ending cycle, and very little actually gets done. Will the future be different? Hopefully, more and more FN people are intentially raising their to be tomorrows leaders. I can see potential in some of my young cousins. And all I can hope for is that they do not get lost in the battles of life before they reach the age where they could do something about this mess.

Neets

Of course not. No group (I mean -- it is kind of ridiculous to use the term "group" in this context) -- is without individuals who use thoughtless phrases. (Every individual has moments of thoughtlessness, obviously!) I was charged with being "too PC" when I first related the story. I find the term PC unhelpful. I consider the phrase I referred to as racist in origin. "What can be done...?" I'd say, talk about it, think about it. I did talk about it with the teacher who made the remark. I think it's worth trying to improve how we communicate. Why use an outdated and mean-spirited term. Thanks for your comment.

fanshaw
You must realize I didn't, and don't, take you for a dummy! You didn't specify a time frame for your little story - I went back and checked. Who knows what the real answer is? Certainly, if it's true that First Nations people had to hire cultural anthropologists to recreate their cultural heritage for them it's an even greater indictment of what European 'culture' and civilization have to account for. Stories are strange things and always open to interpretation, maybe it's the joker in me but I prefer my understanding of your colleague's recollection. It indicates some hope.

On balance, I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that Canada's native peoples have been much better stewards of the lands, animals and forests of this place than we Europeans have. Forensic anthropology be damned, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see how anyone could seriously argue otherwise on the basis of such inconclusive evidence. Neo conmen to the contrary.

As for the role the Christian God has in this whole sorry mess, the less said the better. Adults shouldn’t need to blame their shortcomings on the metaphysical.

I guess, since you've made no further comment, you accept the balance of my reasoning for staying out of this debate. I've said my piece; I'll say no more.

Cheers.

LMHR of course you are right, but it takes a lot of education of one person at time, to accomplish that. It is happening, but for some people, why bother attempting to change outdated preconceived notions? For some its just a waste of energy. I am not suggesting that we should stop trying, but oh well sometimes it just gets to be too much. Not being a fan of PC- I think it was misapplied to you in this context. All it takes is one person to change the thought or meaning of a word or phrase. Personally I relate the phrase "the natives are getting restless" to a metallica song about a mental institution, but then that just goes to show my misspent youth. Oh well. Neets

I have had the same experience as Neets. Different words are appropriate according to who you are speaking to. 'Shema' is one of the native first words I learned when I was a part-time school bus driver hauling kids to and from the Fountain reserve near Lillooet. I never got a precise definition but I knew it was an uncomplimentary word for a white person. OTOH, the driver I was subbing for (also white) used to permit 'Shema Shooting Day' on Fridays if the kids had behaved all week. He would allow them to "shoot up the town" through the open bus windows as he drove down Main Street, while one lucky kid got the honour of riding shotgun in the stairwell. I nearly peed myself when he told me about it.

I also had one FN woman ask me, "Have you met my sister? She's a real Indian." A reference to the fact that her sister lived on reserve while she chose to live in town and work at the grocery store.

Some FN people have a sense of humour so dry they make Oscar Wilde look like the Marx Brothers.

Thanks, G. I've pretty much run out of things to say on this topic as well.

Please don't get me wrong. I have come to the conclusion that FN people still own the majority of BC and they are one of the few groups successfully resisting the commodification/monetarization of the planet, or however you wish to describe the capitalist agenda.

I wish them well.

Ahem! Siyaye

She described evenings at home with "Gord" as a dizzying tour of all his dreams, ideas and ambition for B.C. She promised the audience they are always on his mind and that he is determined to give them and their families a better future with more opportunities.

fanshaw said: "Such is the situation that pertains to FN people's relationship to nature and wildlife. Are the ones who live up to these ideals the 'real' Indians and the ones who don't 'faux' Indians? Or all they all Indians who have fundamental disagreements about just what that means?"

First fanshaw, I appreciate your inquisitive nature, and of course asking questions is not only your right, but I see it as a responsibility we ALL have towards the health of this democratic country (although severly compromised democracy at this time...). Personal"truth seeking" is vital dude. It is the LACK of questioning that is the problem today... so good on you fanshaw, bring it on.

Interesting question... My thoughts are the latter. They are ALL FN people. I have found that many individuals that I have met within FN communities are on a journey to find their unique roots, and somehow, at the some time be able to maintain their "reclaimed" spiritual integrity and culture as they find or attempt to find "placement" in the present world... A nobel yet differcult task to be sure...

I appreciate you fanshaw, you taxed my thinker...man...!! Thanks for your input on this complex issue...

Peace...

RTB

G West said: "On balance, I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge that Canada's native peoples have been much better stewards of the lands, animals and forests of this place than we Europeans have."

Thank you G West for your clairity of thought, and your insightful comments.

Peace bro.

RTB

fanshow:

Discovered it and found it boring for the most part, I should think..........

Part of the FN's "problem" was that so many things we white guys do struck them as being funny to the point of rediculousness, and we white guys don't much like being laughed at, so we "cured" them or killed them..........

Thanks all, it's been interesting. I should skip work more often.

Neets

ha ha... yes the teacher in question is young, she didn't really consider *any* original context or meaning I gather. In the ensuing friendly argument with a great friend (the "PC charge"), he later wrote a charming account of running into some geese on one of his nature rambles. In the subsequent confusion he described their "comical chinese fire drill". I had to laugh -- what, was he doing this on purpose? But I pointed out (our previous refs) and noted, nowadays it's unlikely young people will get any reference from that -- I barely do.

This is though a great thing about the internet and forums (fora?) -- that people from greatly varying ages, geographies and economic backgrounds can mingle and talk. Thanks again.

[To reiterate my other point -- don't we all have to become "post-modern individuals" somehow? together in the soup?]

And I'm home sick as well ("skipping"). I thought this covered a broad range of views and was informative in that way. I thought the Tyee was right to present the whole speech and I didn't think they were "applauding" him or anything -- I just thought it was offered in the spirit of, "hey this is interesting" and "let's watch and keep track!"

FWIW, I particularly like how clean and readable the format is compared to some others.

Thanks all round.

Be briliant,

Linda

Since this is the only place where one might reasonably discuss this, it is notable that MP Maurice Vellacott has resigned as chariman of the Commons Aboriginal Affairs Committee over critical remarks he made about the Madame Justice Beverly McLachlin. Despite the continued 'confidence' of the Prime Minister in him.

Certainly seems to be shaping up that Aboriginal Affairs may be the Conservatives' Achilles Heel.

In government, as a legacy from The Crown, the only good injun is one who doesn't make a fuss............especially a conservative government.

Yay ! Too bad he didn't get tossed out completely.
Another embarassment for Harpo and the all clown party .

Regarding the "loss" of Native cultures, traditions and protocols went underground and were misconstrued for white consumption. Many anthropologits were / are told lies in order to keep traditions private.
and why read anthroplogists when there is so much writing by Native folks?

Hunh ? Okay so all the FN ceremonies are pale imitations of the real thing ? Disguised to fool anthropologists .
Okay .

Hey Hannibal,G West and others... ;-)... Life is good!!

G West said: "Certainly seems to be shaping up that Aboriginal Affairs may be the Conservatives' Achilles Heel."

I agree "G"... This is the direction things seem to be going eh...cool.

Anyways yeah...as I said in a previous post on this thread, these are a spiritual people, and survivers all... They value their unique conection to the earth and "don't cast their pearls before the swine", so to speak. If people are open to learn though, "when the student arrives, the teacher stands up"...

Imagine that, after all these years of persecution by WM, these people are willing to pass on the understandings to help others. These are the SAME understandings that kept them and their culture alive throughout all...man...!!

Peace All...

RTB

Hence their magnificent efforts when that BC Ferry sank off the coast .
Now their traditional fishing grounds are in danger of long term pollution.
How selfless can you get ?
I very much admire FN culture and think it should be taught in school .Perhaps starting in grade six or sooner .
The animals and how they relate to FN culture.
Their healing medicines .
How to recogoze cerain plants that sort of thing .
I am sure it would hold interest for most students.

Harpos achilles heel is definitely his attitude towards FN's .
His best buddy Tom Flanagan wrote the racist diatribe'First Nations Second Thoughts'
Where he speaks of total assimilation of the FN people into cities and doing away with native culture entirely .I mean wipimg it out as if it never existed .
It is of little wonder that Harpo gutted the accord that was so snidely referred to as being written on the back of a napkin by that idiot Monte Solberg .
I recently wrote to three of the Gran Chiefs and informed them that not all Canadians feel the way the Govrnment(?) does and that many of us white eyes would stand shoulder to shoulder with them on the barricades if theu so choose.
I despise colonialism in all its forms .

High Bear and G and Alcibiades

As Harpo's Government(?) is being propped up by a bunch of parasite separatists ,who hate Canada so much but yet take a pay cheque every month,how long before they totally collapse ?
My guess is they have 1,year to make Canada unrecognizable to true Canadians .
His law and order package will die as all the opposition parties have already stated they will not support it .
Strike two Harpo .
Strike three is his suck holing to that twit Charest .
Yea, the neo-cons will be lucky to eke out 50,seats after the nest election .
He is screwing Ontario left,right and center.
Bu Bye !