It's a bit of a stretch to throw Mulroney mud at Harper. Also Manning moving into
Stornoway house doesn't really fit in your list of major flip flops. Hardly
in the same category as failing to cancel the GST.

When the Reform party was imploding under Stockwell Day and various MPs left to sit as "Democratic Alliance" members were they not doing what they felt best to serve their constituents even though they were a "traitor" to their party? Reading Stephen Harper's answer to Colleen Belisle in this transcript shows that this is at least consistent with what he said before the election:

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/yourview/your_turn_conservative.html
(Thanks "G West" for the above link)

Looking at the positive side hopefully the amount of fuss raised over this will help pass a bill that will outline what needs to be done when an MP can cross the floor that balances constituent's concerns with too tight party control. If you make it too difficult to cross the floor then you will have increased the power of the party over the MPs. It would be hard for the Liberals and Conservative members to vote against any reasonable bill given their history. In a minority government there's a good chance for a private member's bill to be proposed and passed.

A new law on what has to be done to recall a Federal member such as what we have at the Provincial level could also help remove excessive abuses of constituent's wishes.

Here is another report

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=fae7ae29-a850-4bdf-9fe2-d8a9c04bedb4

Emerson did not just cross the floor, the governments wasn't even sworn in yet and they hadn't spent 5 minutes in the HOC. As far as I'm concerned this is a case of vote tampering and the ethics commissioner has to find this criminal. How can you just discard peoples votes? If Harper was going to appoint someone why not appoint the Con that lost the vote? What's the difference?

The one reason I wanted to give this government a chance was that they had promised to make government accountable and transparent. Well we all know how far that stretched don't we? Harper, Emerson and Hinton, my MP, will be hearing from me daily by email about how unethical I believe them all to be. Talk about entitlement! And anyone that condones this vote tampering is just as unprincipled as Harper and Emerson.

Rafe, you missed Trudeau campaining against wage and price controls, and, then emplementing same after being re-elected. I haven't voted LIEBERAL since.
Harper is going to wear these manipulations for some time to come. He is a liar, plain and simple. 4Cryin is right, this is criminal vote tampering in Emercenary's case.
On Jan.23/06 the Canadian electorate dealt out 308 cards, and as far as I'm concerned these are the only legitimate cards in play. If at a later date, and I mean LATER, the card, after consultation with it's riding association gets the OK, it can slip itself into another leaders hand.
I voted for change, and not the SAME-OLD-SAME-OLD. Harper's mini-mandate must be defeated soonest. Another election will be cheap considering the price we'll have to pay furthering Harper's ambitions.
The Con's can spin it anyway they want, but they MUST carry out their platform. Old style politics stops NOW!

geeze rafe...you must be gleaning the posts on the tyee comments sites...

MUST MAKE YOUR JOB SO MUCH SIMPLER READING QUICKLY THAN LISTENING ENDLESSLY TO THE WHINING.

what was that QUOTE...you get the govt you desrve...

AS AN EX MERCENARY WHO HAS SEEN MY SHARE OF DISGUSTING GOVERMENTS....we have always had it easy here in canada...AT LEAST HERE YOU CAN GET RID OF THE CREEPS BY VOTING THEM OUT...

but the common man....usually VOTES THEM BACK IN...look at trudeau...look at chretien...and LOOK AT THE VACUOUS MORONS THAT ARE LEFT TO CHOOSE FROM TODAY...

people such as trudeau, churchill, emerson etc view themselves as the elite. in their minds they are held to a different standard than the great unwashed.

the great unwashed keep voting for these guys so maybe they truly are on a different intellectual level.

Rotlin:

Its not that cut and dried. Mulroney's history is relevant in that if its happened once, it can happen again. And just as Peter Mackay ran smoke for Brian Mulroney in terms of continually bringing up the Mulroney airbus investigation as being a total waste of time, Peter Mackay is running smoke for Harper, saying this is different than Belinda, and it is different. Its worse!

By the way, someone should be looking into how Peters dad got all that money and start telling themselves that airbus was just the tip of the iceburg in terms of what Mulroney and friends really did get away with in this country...

As for Emerson, his history speaks for itself. Emerson was our 1984 as deputy finance minister as people in this province might recall, and with this position, Honorable Emerson had banking intelligence that he used to his advantage. Pick up a phone and offer to help management in a weak private banking sector, and next thing you know, he's President and CEO takeover king of the Western and Pacific Bank of Canada in Vancouver now the Canadian Western Bank after he successfully merged his bank with another one.

What people don't know, is how he managed to get his hands on shares with both banks to make himself a multi-millionaire back then through his cherry picking... and we can call it ethical, if we believe its fine and dandy to exploit government intelligence for our own personal gain, but thats not voters knew when they elected him into office again... in the 1990's this time as president of the BC Trade development Corporation...

Emerson had intelligence on every natural resource either developed or non developed in this province. His appointment to Canfor, was again, no mistake and Emerson made millions more, again, off of our tax paying dollars government reports or government intelligence.

Honorable Emerson's directorships included : Teresen Inc, Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance Company of Canada; Vice-Chairman of the Canadian Council of Chief Executives; Chair, British Columbia Ferry Services Inc.; and Chairman and Director of Genus Resource Management Technologies Inc.

Some could argue that "hey, the guy is smart, gifted, he's making a few bucks off of being at the right place at the right time, he's paying his taxes, its all Canadian corporations, whats the beef?" If you can argue this is ethical...

I can argue definitively that it isn't, where he is definitely unCanadian, especially with the intelligence Emerson gave Teresen. We all know where Teresen pays their taxes (in the U.S.), we all know (now) that Emerson was paid through shares for his role as a director for Teresen, and we all know that not only did Emerson know extensively what BC had with the natural gas sector, Emerson secured the takeover and sales of natural gas companies to Teresen by betraying confidentiality and public service trust with tax payers intelligence, and, as a result, Teresen has a huge chunk of our natural gas service sector at our expense. Emerson made killings... at our expense.

If anyone calls this "ethical", their on the pipe. They don't know what the difference is between right and wrong, cause we can argue a "competitive angle with Emerson paying taxes on his millions made from Canadian corps... we can, but there isn't one Canadian standing that can argue its ethical to sell out to the states. I don't care who they are, public servants don't sell out Canadian intelligence to the states! Especially for money!!!

Emerson was dirty as a Liberal, people voted for him without knowing the facts, and I can tell you infatically, that he isn't any cleaner as a Conservative. But hey, if someone wants to deny that Harper praised Emerson's character as his kind of people... maybe tommarrow Harper will you know, change his mind. He's a bit... flippant these days. You know... when it suits him... at everyone elses expense.

Looks like Harper & the gang are just as corrupt as the last lot! Internationally, Canada is seen as a 3rd world country, with a ruling elite, kept in power by an equally corrupt media.

the brain"s short bio on EMERSON shows J.Q.PUBLIC exactly why HARPER wants EMERSON to play in the same sandbox...

you always want to play with the kids that have the best toys(economics),the most popular(contacts)...and in a GEEKS WORLD...the smartest(emerson)

While I am as disgusted (but not surprised by Emerson and Harper), let's not paint all politicians with the same brush. Think of all the people who are elected in all levels of government who are honest, hardworking people with integrity. Too bad more stories were not told about them. Maybe we would then have the public less tolerant of the scum that is out there.

The only honest politicians we have are just too stupid to be dishonest!

Grumpy:

Tony Clements comes to mind. And notice 3 out of 4 are into communications and PR. Fine and dandy to have a bunch of ministers who have been trained to keep their mouths shut. At some point, however, these mouths are going to have to start giving answers on what they are doing with their ministries. That's when the real "gong" show begins.

And Gordon O'Connors appointment to ministry of National defence sure put an egg in our face internationally. There wasn't a European or U.S. paper that didn't mention our minister of defence with our retired generals background as a military equipment lobbiest. Yup! Smart. Put another bozo in there with blatant conflicts of interest.

As if Fortier, Emerson and Baird weren't bad enough.

All this is nothing more, or less, than the Bilderbergers and the Trilaterals etc. etc. etc. at work, using their political pimps and the criminal, neoclassical, globalized, market economy theory to gain dictatorial powers over the world in the name of "free trade" and "wealth creating foreign investment".

We're permitted to blame the politicians, but when we dare to mention the powers behind them, we're immediately accused of spreading "ridiculous conspiracy theories".

So, what are the Bilderbergers and Trilaterals etc. etc. if not bona fide conspiracies spreading more and more destitution, mass murder by starvation and ecological destruction over the world ? What is the neoclassical theory if not a pseudo religion justifying it ?

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

"here comes the new boss,
same as the old boss..."

p.s.-saw on 60 minutes how many billions of american taxpayer dough has already disapeared in Iraq, much of it to halibirton, dick "shotgun" cheney's old gig.
Then when there was a call for an investigation it was voted down by the republicans. The same republicans whom the conservative party idolizes and seeks to emulate.

Rafe, for speed, yes the Harper flip-flop certainly wins - hands down. A trifecta of broken promises.

The source?

I suspect that the 'old tory' party is really back. Those concerned that the Reformers were going to be 'in charge' of the new party need not worry any more. The old guard never dies, and in this case they did not have to burn their battleflags as the name Conservative Party lives on.

Certainly the new Tories are behaving just like the old.

Thanks to Rafe for being Harper's apologist. Rafe reveals his bias again. Instead of fighting for a clean Canada, Rafe offers examples from the last 80 years. Rafe is wrong. Emerson's betrayal has had an effect on one voter. I will never ever vote for Stephen son-of-Bush.

Just heard Emerson on the love your friends station. He tells us he is a man of integrity.But basically what he and his friends are saying is you don't count and we'll tell you how to think. Our journalists are letting us down telling us this is great for B.C. But HOW? Another reason not to trust a politician is that how? We already have enough examples in just Provincial Politics

There really is no point in passing a law to prevent people from crossing the floor, or even to prevent them from cashing in via plum appointments.

A politician like Stephen Harper so cunning and deceiving (and with such gall) as to stake his election campaign so publicly and loudly on his personal singular integrity, and then throw it away without so much as a wink or a nod as soon as he has power, will not be much deterred by a law against crossing the floor (or, as I think of it (when you run for one side before election, then next day join the others) defrauding the voters).

From here on in, we can only expect the Harper con-government to be deceptive and dishonorable on just about anything one could think of. Put simply -- Harper has lost the trust of the people.

As someone else has pointed out, Harper's small cabinet contains an inordinate number of ministers in key roles who were previously PR/information consultants, the better to keep us all from the "transparent" governing the Cons promised with hand on Bible.

And I don't believe we should take any comfort whatsoever in our "power" as citizens of a democratic system of government to be able to "turf them out next time." Harper has effectively thrown a monkey-wrench into our democratic system. They'll alter the system to their liking with (or most likely without) our agreement or our knowledge. "Next time," the Harper con-government will be ready with many, many more dirty tricks to not only ensure, but to strengthen, their hold on power.

And Emerson? He likely has no intention of ever running for elected office again. He doesn't have to. He'll be well "looked after" by the business elite community who see absolutely nothing wrong with robbing the people of a free/fair vote. Indeed they (including Gordon Campbell) are falling all over themselves to say how good Emerson's appointment will be -- good for whom, I wonder? The business elite. Remember last November when Cheney visited the Alberta Tar Sands with Ralph Klein and Gordon Campbell? Forgot? They didn't make a big splash of it did they? That's whose interests will be served.

So, fasten your seatbelt folks. It's going to be an ugly, bumpy ride for us common folk from here on in, not just during the next election. Harper's got the green light, and he's shown he will stop at very little to get his way -- not promises sworn on the Bible, and not laws which can be got around or changed.

After all, what did the Con-man Harper and his party suffer by flaunting the will of the people and parachuting their business elite pals into powerful government positions??? Just a little nattering that most media are telling us will die away in a week or two (note I use the word telling, not saying, deliberately).

Contrary to what many are saying, I don't believe these appointments are a gaff -- these are deliberate steps, well planned by Harper's inner circle. These are not the mistakes of a rooky government (after all it's Mulroney's chief political aid who Harper hired to select the new con-cabinet, a man who was instrumental in sneaking the NAFTA agreement past Canadian voters, and was an ex-ambassador the U.S.). This man is no rooky.

I believe Harper's "bomb shells" are deliberate steps, calculated to turn our democratic system into something more like the United States under George Bush, where the business elite feed off the ignorance of the masses.

You just need to tell the Cons when they phone for your vote That you are not voting Republican

Here's a wonderful comment by Stephen (no, not that Stephen) on yesterday, responding to those who say everybody and everything else is to blame except David Emerson:

"I came away from the meeting convinced that this issue is not going to fade away. It's true, of course, that Canadians pay little attention to politics between elections and that partisan attachments today are weaker than ever. But Emerson's duplicity has profoundly offended the sensibilities of ordinary citizens. He has shown exceptional contempt for his constituents and made a mockery of their democratic rights. This is easily understood by most Canadians, if not by the Board of Trade and some pundits who ought to know better. And it is something that the people will neither forgive nor forget.

"Emerson is fast becoming a millstone for the Harper Government not only in Vancouver Kingsway but right across the country. It wouldn't surprise me if he ends up inflicting so much damage on the Government that Harper sooner or later pressures him to resign his seat. In the meantime, Harper must be rueing the day he enlisted John Reynolds as a headhunter.
Posted by Stephen on February 11, 2006 10:58 PM"

Here's a view from Inkless Wells, a blogspot which invites comments. The topic was "Will the Emerson debacle soon be over?" Paul Wells (the "ink" in Inkless Wells) said yes, in about a week. I said:

Sent: Sun 2/12/2006 12:21 AM
To: Paul Wells

new political dictionary definition of the word CON-JOB...

STEVEN HARPER,screwing over CANADIAN VOTERS with the appointment of FORTIER, and EMERSON being allowed to show the world... CANADIAN POLITICIANS HAVE NO MORAL COMPASS...

con - job...is now synonymous with the name steven harper...as is ...bible thumping whore
as is ...no values , no problem....
ANYONE CARE TO JOIN IN

we have been made a laughing stock because of righteous people who said ...THEY WERE GONNA CHANGE THINS.........yeah...sure

conservative job openings available...MUST SPEAK FLUENT MACHIVELLIAN...no scruples/no problem...cal now...666-66666 ask for beezelbub

What I really do not understand about Emerson crossing the floor is how he expects to get re-elected next time around. There are no ridings in Vancouver that came remotely close to electing a Conservative. Emerson might have some strong appeal but the other Vancouver ridings are held by very strong candidates as well. Perhaps the most susceptible "Liberal" riding is Kingsway but they are likely to swing to the NDP.

I hope that Emerson enjoys his next year or two in cabinet, and that Harper enjoys Vanoucver representation at least for a while because Emerson won't be around next time, and the Conservatives, if they win, will almost certainly be shut out of Vancouver again.

Shame on our Sanctimonious Journalists and Talk show hosts. Excepting Mr. Berner. What a bunch of hypocrites Very big hypocrites . Here it is one week after the Cabinet is announced to the dismay of the ordinary voter. David Emerson played by the rules , it’s great for B.C. Well HOW? He turned coattails to the wind and ran into the welcoming arms of the Conservatives And here it is all those pundits who say they hold the politicians feet to the fire are telling us not to be worried the wealthy elite will take care of everything . We seem to be told that only the wealthy votes count. So does this mean that the rest of us should vote only the way the pundits tell us so they can control us. Many vilified Keith Martin and Belinda Stronach but now because Mr. Emerson is a man in with the wealthy of B.C. his betrayal of the voters of Kingsway is Ethical B.S. Actually I think they are telling us our vote doesn’t count so go away until I need your support.

I don't think Emerson will last 1-2 years in cabinet. He'll be hounded and hunted constantly in and out of the House by the opposition and the public. I'd be surprised to see him last as an MP for more that 6 months. However, I won't make any bets on it. I never thought Campbell would last either, but the propaganda machine saw to his resurrection and now they're gearing up to "sell" Harper & Co. Investments Ltd.

Come to think of it, we used to live in the Kingsway riding 27 years ago, but wouldn't have voted for him anyway.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

EMERSON is to valuable a puppet for the big business community to lose...his contacts generate megabucks for investors.

if anybody is going to fall on his sword...
IT AINT GONNA BE EMERSON...

look for a scapegoat or some issue arising to deflect the peoples anger and redirect their attention...

remember...THE WEST HAS WANTED IN BIG TIME...
so they aint gonna give up easily...and with all them oilfield dollars...well...i think there is a new DYNASTY in the works...and look who has their foot in the door...oh!oh!
with bible in hand,the stench of oil in the air,the promises of UTOPIA,the righteous attitudes...

it's an emerson/harper/klein...CLONE...

WHAT HATH GOD WROUGHT UPON US...i ask ???
These are not his emissaries.

I believe Harper's "bomb shells" are deliberate steps, calculated to turn our democratic system into something more like the United States under George Bush, where the business elite feed off the ignorance of the masses.

Exactly, Sunny Samson. That's why we should be paying very close attention as UNDERSTANDME suggests in his comment...you can pretty well count on the old game of "deflection and re-direction" in this political shell game to be played shortly.

"

UNDERSTANDME
y'know, despite our dust up yesterday, I agree with what you're saying. But I also think posting here is fundamentally a waste of time - it's preaching to the converted.

In the end, why bother?

Just haven't reached that level of disillusionment yet that I'm willing to throw my hands up and surrender. The media is bought and paid for, conservative websites are a black hole of true believers and here we just talk to each other.

I heard a rumour in Victoria this morning that Keith Martin may cross back to the conservatives - I kid you not!

You know it, Lynn. And we'll get it with softwood lumber. And what, were Canadians thinking the U.S. didn't have to ever pay up? This "agreement" isn't something I like to begin with, giving the U.S. a 25% discount to accept 5 to 10% tariffs up to a third above what they produce, and then the percentages are in the 30's from there. Anyone who has a calculator knows that Canadian currency being what it is, is creating a commodity that is at par with the U.S. . Were going to cover their asses with shortages and get milked for it. There is no saviour of softwood here, no bells and whistles. What ever happened to getting paid in full without penalty?

Friggin NAFTA. We sign an agreement to commit to mandatory supply agreements without a thing to show for it, but play by the rules on paper with a trade partner who never does, offering resources on demand, or else. Their bullies on the block, life is cheap and just about everything Bush has done... war, lies, turn pensions into stock portfolio's, make watergate legal and bug the average citizen and maybe the democrats in the best interests of Homeland security, boost war spending and cut social programs... and now we have this U.S. puppet plant NCC prez Harper... and braindead crew

http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/national/2006/02/06/flaherty-060206.html

Ontario isn't doing handstands with Flaherty at the finance helm.

The brain

But you can be sure the Howe Street elite will do just fine and they'll clap like madmen when Emerson and Harper address the Board of Trade. When you sup with the devil you need a very long spoon!

My God!, On brand-X, they know no shame, first they have a failed Tory candidate sing the praises for Emerson, then to top it off, Kim Campbell (G*d almighty, I'm sick and tired of Campbells) call from Madrid to again sing the praises of the BC Judas.

According to Kim (2 seats) Campbell, Emerson was a winner for the BC party. Am I missing something, am I suffering from dementia, when did the BC Party run in the last election? Did anyone donate to the BC party?

Brand-x should be ashamed of themselves and the radio station has now sunk to new lows in deseptive broadcasting! Boycott them and their advertisers!

Rafe, we need you back!

As to preaching to the converted...

This isn't always the way as we have the Ron Irwins participating.

This is also a good forum for exchanging information and improving arguements on the issues.

You're right Mel - I just get really sick of banging my head against the wall. I expect they'll be out push-polling like mad in the next week or so!

I hear you, G West:

Off topic, but this is Monte Solberg's blog a few days ago on Kyoto:

"Licia Corbella has written a brilliant article in Reader's Digest about Canada's Kyoto committments.

Basically Licia points out that if we decide to ban all planes, trains and automobiles in Canada and entirely abandon all manufacturing, stop all construction and shut every mine we would still fall short of our Kyoto target.

Combined those reductions would reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 252.9 megatonnes, still leaving us 17.1 megatonnes short of our insane Kyoto target. Licia gathers all of her information from the Environment Canada website.

So, in order to reach our Kyoto targets we will have to get to work by bicycle, foot or oxen. Excuse me, I've got an appointment downtown. When does the next express oxen come by?

Or that's how we would travel to work if we actually had jobs to go to in that new green economy. But with all manufacturing, construction and mining shut down there'll be no more yucking it up down at the office because there will be no office and no job.

No, basically a Kyoto compliant Canada would be like something out of a Mad Max movie, but without the souped-up cars.

Yep, in a Kyoto compliant Canada we'll be able to sit around in our hemp shirts and potato sack pants and look down our noses at those selfish Americans who refuse to give up luxuries like food, shelter and clothing in order to meet the Kyoto targets. There they'll sit with their fancy-schmancy GHG producing economy and all the jobs that go with it.

But we'll sit on the moral high ground and look down on those dumb Americans through our hollow eyes and with our sunken cheeks. Oh and we'll have lots of time for sitting around and looking. Think of it as a kind of new green economy early retirement.

Never mind the fact that even by shutting down our economy and going middle-ages retro Canada would reduce total world GHG emissions by less than half of 1%. Never mind that even without being part of Kyoto the heartless Americans have a much better record on reducing greenhouse gases than Canada.

Perhaps you have read this and have concluded that I am not an environmentalist, but you would be wrong. I am actually a radical environmentalist who believes that we have a moral obligation to clean the air, water and land, but to do it in a way that ensures that we still have jobs and a viable economy. What could be more radical than that?"

Ironically, the Greens came in strongest in Alberta with 6.6% of the vote in the fed election. Doesn't it warm your hearts to hear the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration quote stories from the readers digest as grounds for walking from Kyoto? Ron Irwin, we've found your replacement. Unusually warm winter we've had this year...

from G West:

So, when you're in bed with the devil, what do you need? - diplomatic immunity?

Emerson defection 'different,' MacKay says
TERRY WEBER
From Saturday's Globe and Mail

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060210.wemers0210/BNStory/National/home

Maybe Mr. Emercenary's vow is coming true, only not the way his audience expected on election night. I think Mr. Emerson suffers from that sense of entitlement that Harper's heroes to the South always Harp on (pun intended).

It is obvious to me that Mr. Emerson considers himself way too important to bother sitting on the opposition benches, especially since he could always be in the private sector using his inside info and connections to make even more money that he probably doesn't really need. Methinks Mr. Emerson shouldn't plan to sit in Parliament very long unless his buddy Stephen asks a member of his disappointed Alberta caucaus to step aside for him in the next election. Even then, he wouldn't be likely to be in cabinet as Harper and Co. will hopefully be back in the wilderness.

Rafe, like you, I am thrilled to see the Mulroney slime oozing to the surface again. I always thought it was outrageous that he claimed the RCMP and government of Canada had harmed his reputation. That assumes he had a good reputation to begin with. The fact that he single handedly almost drove the Progressive Convertative party into extinction is evidence of what Canadians thought of him by the time he was done trying to sell out Canada, not that I consider that much of a loss.

I also think Peter "heartbroke" Mckay shouldn't talk about ethics without pausing to remember his betrayal of David Orchard and the remnants of the Progressive Conservative Party. At the rate Harper and Co. are going this incarnation of the CRAP party should join the PC's, Reform and dinosaurs in the trash heap of history fairly soon.

Grumpy, that was whoop-up funny, Kim 2-seats Campbell ... and CKNW brought her in to defend David Emerson? Loony Toons!

G West, you keep commenting that there's no use commenting? There's a remedy for that. But remember, there are people who read these threads without saying a thing.

I agree with those that are saying the corporate media do not get it.

They are saying that it is O.K. to steal, or buy votes, provided the payoff is significant (Emerson buys your vote and pays for it by saying I will better represent my riding and BC by being a Conservative government Cabinet Minister!)

These journalists/pundits awriting off the democratic process, and like others have said, leave governmnet to the elite and rich. Hey if that is what they are saying than be honest about it.

Oh wait, if the journalists/pundits/hacks are honest, the "unwashed" may not continue to buy their newspapers or watch their channel.

Our so-called democracy is a farce, and by what right can we tell Haiti, or Afganistan, Iraq, or any other country that democracy is something Canada holds dear/cherishes/etc.

I hope the pressure continues, the Ethics Commissioner rules, Emerson resigns (and hides-there is no way he will ever run for office again-in a bye-election, or in the next federal election!).

Arrrrrrgh!

Luceo
Nice! Works for me - I was thinking asbestos sheets actually.

The Brain -
just thank heaven Monte isn't environment minister. I haven't read the Reader's Digest piece (Atlantic Monthly is about as far right as my reading goes) but it sounds like a P J O'Rourke piece from Rolling Stone about ten or a half-dozen years or ago about the futility of recycling.
Sad part is we're getting the ethical character of a mad max movie with no reduction in greenhouse gases. Who the heck is Licia Corbella anyway?

Correction:

I meant that the PC Party wasn't that much of a loss. The loss of Canada is tragic!

BC Mary
Sorry, I'm prone to depression, that's all

I'll answer my own question. She's a magic Christian who writes for the Calgary Sun. You can read about her here:
http://www.christianity.ca/faith/business/2004/12.000.html

I guess she's a well-known environmentalist and ecological researcher on the side. Sigh!
Maybe Monte is impressed with her pretty face!

Perhaps she thinks prayer will have the same effect on pollution as it has on the cancer in her 'let'
Sigh again - see why I get depressed. These turkeys treat David Suzuki like a pariah and they get their science from Licia Corbella.

David Suzuki is a horror when he's not in front of the camera. I can't listen to him anymore either.

This Emerson thing is going to go down as a hilarious and ill-conceived first-term shennanigan. Let's not blow it out of proportion. I actually feel sorry for Emerson, because we're now going to have to watch to slow & painful demise of whatever political career he had.

Feel sorry for Emerson!

Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Emerson had intelligence on every natural resource either developed or non developed in this province, wrote the brain.

Absolutely excellent points, the brain, ...and crucial ones.

Access to government intelligence is now being used for private profit. It is an exclusive private club that is doing the cherry-picking. (I'll use your word, brain :-)... and using our democratic electoral system to put them in the privileged position to do so. All the while the public is being prohibited to access to that very same information...our democratic right to freedom of information has become increasingly thwarted.

the kyoto accord piece with the EXPRESS OXEN is a goggle!not as OFF TOPIC as you would believe...cause BIG BUSINESS PIMPS ...like EMERSON,et al are going to sell us out...look at who owns what...look at the OUTRAGEOUS amount of money CHINA IS GONNA SPEND !

china cannot feed itself on its own resources today...this is a culture that has been around a lot longer than us white folk...and they are tenacious,intelligent and malleable...just look at the CRAP, fate has thrown their way...
THE FIGHTING ALONE WOULD HAVE WIPED OUT OTHER RESOURSE BASED NATIONS...look at the WALL...look at their DYNASTIES...they ain't going away.

and look at our UNUSED LANDS/RESOURSES...we are what emerson's buddies consider...MONEY IN THE BANK...

you think you have to really worry about bush and his bunch as much as the chinese...

we better start learninmg to live a different way...KYOTO WAS A PIPE DREAM...but selling our resourses ain't gonna get us nowhere fast.

and DAVID EMERSON ain't gonna be wearing hemp shirts and potato sack pants after he sells our resourses from under us...

Nice work, G West:

Nightbloom:
I don't feel sorry for what happens to turncoat traitor Emerson at all, so long as its bad. Nope! Not one bit. If it was the French revolution and Emerson did his 5 seconds in front of a guillotine, I would feel no remorse as part of the mob, nor shed a tear.

And these Cons with their GST slashing ways... we so often forget why we've got the GST in the first place. Its called deficit reduction. These dummies will slash a point off of the GST costing us 12.5 to 13.5 billion a year, along with taxes to the rich, estimating surplus's on high commodities instead of whats coming, a very possible dramatic downturn in consumption coming before years end. Add some war expenses... This link is sobering.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060210.wustrade0210/BNStory

Dodge, Canada's version of Greenspan, tells a similar tale.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/national/2006/02/06/dodge-060206.html

Too bad Harper got his economics degree and idiot ideology from a Flanagan made in U.S. cracker jackbox.

The arrogance of David Emerson is mind-boggling. He believes that someone of his stature is only fit for cabinet. Someone with his intelligence would obviously be wasted in Opposition. What an insult to the many talented and capable MPs who have served on both sides of the house.

Emerson has also demonstrated his contempt for the voters of his riding. After benefiting from the work of 300 Liberals volunteers in the campaign(and close to $100,000 from Liberal Party fund raising), he has turned his back on his volunteers and constituents after one phone call from Harper. A seat at the cabinet table is obviously more important that honesty and integrity.

This action also demonstrates Harper's callous disregard and scorn for the public. All the talk about change, accountability, and ethics obviously was obviously B.S. How can anyone trust Harper now! Through his actions, he has shown his contempt for voters and democracy.

He has squandered a lot of political capital on this issue. I predict that voters will alwasy remember this deceitful act of the Conseratives.

I would also suggest that Mr. Emerson should watch his back. He was placed in cabinet for poltical convenience. Once he becomes a political liability, he will be cut loose by Harper.

With this action, Mr Harper has managed to alientate everybody---the voters of Vancouver Kingsway, the Canadian electorate, and Conservative voters. He has contributed to the deep cynicism and disillsionment at many Canadians have with polticians the government. We deserve better!

Mike L
Vancouver, BC

To anyone who's read the two earlier links on my last post:
I'm no genious with economics, but when the U.S. is already at 4.5% fed rates and countries start pulling their money out, there'll be nothing to stop the dollar from a free fall. The only thing countries can do to prop up currency is to prop up fed interest rates. The U.S. has already done this and their running out of room. The big sell with the U.S. economy doing so well is that their currency is doing good in comparison with other currencies world wide. Thing is, they have higher fed rates than any other nation right now. They've maxed their ability to buy with bang for their buck, and have no manufacturing base, no government that will encourage protectionism of manufacturing or say no to corporate will, nothing keeping them from economic ruin.

Combine high rates with a real estate bubble, and as equity shrinks, bankrupcies become common. Banks themselves, become unstable and where will they turn to in their final flailings? Canada, of course. We've got a government now that licks their boots. Friggin' sad.

And Lynn... just think about the intelligence that's going south with a Conservative government. Its an ugly thought... and Stockwell really is that slow and stupid, among others in this cabinet. Harper is more than an antagonist without answers. He's a U.S. sellout and a dark stain on this nation.

The U.S. already owns large portions of our resources through the markets, but they are blanked out of Canada with banks, insurance, healthcare, union strength and media laws. Look for the NCC led Conservatives to deregulate these sectors with legislation.

The NCC playbook is worth a good long look.

The Conservative "agenda" is well known, if anyone cares to look. Those new to the National Citizens Coalition should be reminded that Stephen Harper was the president of the NCC for five years, from late 1997 to dec. of 2001. His support to the NCC, along with the NCC's report for Harper since the 80's is well known, again to anyone who cares to look. Some of you have seen it posted from me in the past, and some of you haven't. If there are any Cons on this site, they had better take a good long look at who they are really voting for.

http://www.morefreedom.org/
Campaigns says it all.
http://www.nupge.ca/news_2003/n27ja03a.htm
The links in this one are definitely worth looking into.

http://www.answers.com/topic/nation...izens-coalition
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/15/ncc031015

This last one is my favorite. It gives a comprehensive history of what the NCC has done in Canadian Federal politics since 67.

http://www.stephenharpersaid.ca/pdf/ncc.pdf#search='www.national%20citizens%20coalitio n'

All anyone needs to do is cut and paste, and surf away to see just how bought and paid for, this U.S. empirical puppet plant Harper really is. The reality that Stephen Harper is our current P.M. doesn't shine well on the intellegence of the average Canadian.

the brain

doesn't shine a positive light on the average canadian citizen...is kind of harsh...IMHO

we have to remember most of us average jack and jills were voting STRATEGICALY...

THAT A HIGH PERCENTAGE DID NOT VOTE...Shows a disenfranchised population that considers voting in this system a waste of time...

EVEN WITH STRATEGIC VOTING...LOOK WHAT WE GOT!

same old...same old...so can we blame the disenfranchised or the average person trying to bring sanity to our beloved country???

KEEP ON VENTING...YOUR POSTS EDUCATE AND ENTERTAIN...AND THEY ARE PART OF THE THREAD THAT WILL SEW UP THE WOUNDS THAT THE IGNORANT INFLICT...

The brain
Last link is dead! And this one:http://www.answers.com/topic/nation...izens-coalition
dead ends!

Understandme:
64% plus of eligable voters voted in the last election. of those, less than 35% voted under the age of 35. This is the problem.

G West: Yah. They nuke 'em if they can. Cut and paste still works. I'd list two others, and good ones, but they are NCC archives and I'm not done with them yet, but will make them public.

I've got a plan. Anyone interested? That first post of mine could use some beefing up. There was an editorial done in either the Province or the Globe on Emerson (he was a liberal then, so they printed it) that was very similar to my first post, except it was much more thorough. It had share numbers Emerson had recieved from all of this CEO appointments and directorships. Most of these numbers can be found with research, I believe, except for the bank merger he was involved with. The article might be discovered in the library with searches, or rediscovered with personal searches.

The plan is, beef up the first post of mine with a corporate paper trail. Canfor would be the easiest trail to pick up, or the editorial itself with stats we're looking for. Then take this information and email it to either every MP in this country, every media outlet, or target NDP MP's specifically and give them a week to run with it, and then email everyone else, including ethics commissioners provincially and federally.

I feel like being a s..t disturber today.

So... just what exactly does the Airbus affair and money in brown paper bags have to do with crossing the floor, anyways? The header talks about flip-flops and broken promises, but half the article deals with Muroney and his pecadillos.

Man! stick to one topic, Rafe - it seems like you dreamed this column up in 10 minutes on the back of a napkin over drinks at the West Vancouver Yacht Club.

There is no use trying to minimize the ethical, moral and democratic issues surrounding Emerson's defection. If you saw Global's initial coverage of the Emerson story, the story contained a clip from his acceptance speech on election night.

Here is a guy who had just accepted almost $100,000 and the untiring volunteer efforts of dozens if not hundreds of supporters to get elected, and in his acceptance to the party faithful, he begins to let slip that "we will work for a Con... a Liberal majority government." The reporter even commented that this may have been the protent of his future action.

This pillock had already made up his mind to cross the floor, even before the final votes were tallied in his riding!! He is little more than political pond scum, and the voters of this country should banish him to the corporate boardrooms where he slithered out of -- where morals, ethics and principles take a back seat to self-agrandizement and lining one's pocket.

Is it me or does Understandme sound like Ron Erwin????

The fact that Emerson doesn't seem to understand that people should be upset shows how arrogant and self-indulgent he really is. He's now saying he was always non-partisan, etc. Why then, didn't he run as an Independent? Of course that wouldn't get him a Cabinet post, would it. By his actions, he has said that the Canadian vote really doesn't matter much. How egotistical is this guy anyway?! Lucky us to have another MP who doesn't know the meaning of the word 'ethical'! We seldom see the likes of Chuck Cadman in politics, who knew what 'doing the right thing' meant.

the brain

information mining is easy enough...but USING certain information is where it gets tricky...
and you can ask the author of the piece we are posting to about that...rafe ,will certainly echo that privacy issues will rear their ugly heads...yes those laws that protect us all.

private enterprise info can be found in yearly/annual reports...so it's open...but anything that is closed...example...tax return...is out of bounds(naturaly) if it is posted in court documents though(unless sealed by a judge)it can/may be used depending on the info...

information mining to use in the public arena is not as cut and dried here in canada as it is in the states...the judge has discretion when it comes to utilization of any information
that may be damaging to an individual...SO IF YOU GOT DEEP POCKETS...nothing you wish to see daylight...will ever see daylight...UNLESS THE TAXMAN WANTS IT

this info straight out of my brothers mouth who works for revenue canada and mines information for audits...and none says no to revenue canada as we know.

so anyone mining information to use in the public arena has to be aware of the hurdles and once you have that info you have to practice due diligence to make sure you are not breaking any laws...legal issues/privacy issues...cause where ever you post/publish that info...that entity can be sued...and then they can sue you and on and on

so use only information that is public to be safe...and there are others that could probably give a little more detaled info than this.

emmers

i jes luvz teachin peeples ta read

THEN AGAIN IF THEY LACK COMPRHENSION IT'S A WASTE OF TIME...

emmers...missing the ...on...

From tomorrow's NYTimes: http://nytimes.com/2006/02/14/business/14oil.html?hp&ex=1139893200&en=7f705e667bdcf305&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Can't imagine there won't be an equally craven deal for Oil companies in Canada. Although, given the Alberta royalty regime it couldn't get much cozier.

Brain, you've posted those links in about 10 threads now. What Harper said in the past is now only relevant if he does the opposite now that he is PM. You missed your boat by about a month...

Stephen Harper is a political GENIUS. Whether he's evil or not, you can't deny that he knows the ropes of the game.

Remember, how the very first day of the election campaign, he bought up gay marriage. We all thought that was a royal blunder. It wasn't, he managed to get public bored of the issue before anyone realized there was an election.

He has just pulled another one on the LEFTIES. First day of government, he pulls not 1, but two seedy election choices. Magicians call this slight of hand. Military planners called it diversions.

So guess what, all the left has become polarized against David Emerson. But Emerson's not the one who will be passing the controversial legislation. That will be Vic Toews, our new minister of Justice. As the left has now become so behind the accountability issues, that Harper is being given a free hand elsewhere. Emerson won't loose the Tories any voters. The tories didn't win any in Vancouver or Burnaby, so why not have all the major BC opposition figures focus on one man, who won't even be involved with any legislation. International trade can almost all be done by orders in council as can the Olympics and the worst Emerson will do is come shoveling out Money for BC. No, Toews will be putting in draconian measures while the left protests on Broadway. Tony Clement will be giving into Albertas health reforms, while Fortier (are other unelected rep) dolls out HR money in Quebec to further protests??

So you can see, Harper has again done the pre-emptive strike. Genius. Evil Genius. I think Cheney may have met his match.

Emerson Blocked Deal On Softwood: Liberals
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060209040236712/print

David Emerson defected to the Conservatives this week carrying a multi-billion dollar softwood lumber deal that Liberals, for political reasons, didn't finalize before the federal election.

What I wanna know is: As the tariffs charged by the Americans was financed directly by the massive layoffs of forest industry employees, while exports reached record levels (and so did profits, despite aforesaid tariffs), will the $5 billion (if it ever is returned to Canada) go to the employees who were screwed out of their jobs......? If not, then where WILL the money go.....?

"He has squandered a lot of political capital on this issue. I predict that voters will alwasy remember this deceitful act of the Conseratives."

I totally agree. Without Emerson, his approval rating would have been north of 60% rather than the lowly 54% he got today.

Someone help me please. I have done a search on the words Buzz, Senator, punted, King Jack etc and nothing comes up on the entire Tyee site. Surely this must be a techical glitch. Surely the astute political minds present on this site must have picked up on this story. I realize that a story on breast enhancements was long overdue, but perhaps just a footnote at the bottom on that story would have sufficed. After all, it would have been easy to segue from boobs straight to Jack Layton so easily.

But, back to bashing those demon Conservatives. Damn them and their lack of ethics and the way they treat people.

From the Vancouver Star "Hargrove said he should not have been expelled from the party because the CAW endorsed the idea of strategic voting.

"[The decision] ignores the democratic processes of our union and our constitution," he said."

Seems to me that there should be a lot of contributors to this forum who better be tossing the old Party membership card into the trash after all of the endorsments of strategic voting leading up to the election. Maybe King Jack already has your IP addresses and your[U] letter is in the mail.

Oh, this is rich.

But, once again, lets all get back to bashing Conservatives. Only they do wrong.

juskatladude
dunno, dude, I kind of agree that the Ontario NDP handled this one pretty badly. But then, if you actually read the posts I've made on the subject you'd see I haven't been holding any torch for Jack either and that I see this as a moral and ethical problem for all Canadians, including Conservatives. If you stick around for a while instead of just dropping in from time to time to paste the same post in several different threads you might learn something.

dangrice.com

hey! HARPER A GENIUS ?

look up the definition to the word before you light up another WHATEVER YER SMOKIN...

VIC TOEWS ain't gonna pass squat unless the CONS get the numbers during the process of passing legislation...in the house of commons.
or have you forgot they are a minority govt???

that every opportunist in the bloc quebecois is now salivating like PAVLOVS DOG just waiting for these boneheads to come to them CAP IN HAND...for every passing of a bill/legislation...is enough for anyone with a brain to laugh out loud at your suggestion that HARPER IS A GENIUS...

WE HAVEN'T EVEN FACTORED IN THE LIEBRALS OR NDP.

ANY BILL/LEGISLATION...is gonna cost the rest of canada BIGTIME with the BLOC...and the liberals not wanting to go the way of the dodo will not co-operate unless the passing makes them LOOK GOOD...same as the ndp...

when passing something benefits all parties...it's still problematic because...everybody wants something,besides looking good...THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN...THESE ARE PETULANT CHILDREN USED TO GETTING THEIR OWN WAY...THEY DON'T PLAY NICE IN THE SANDBOX...EVER

if you think anyone in the house will co-operate after seeing the FAUX PAUX GRANDE,well i gotta ask if your name is norm spector ?that mulroney buttlicker that thinks the CONservatives can do no wrong cause they are all blessed with GENIUS.

that harper is intelligent? yes! smart? no
look up the definitions before ya light up again.

diversions...my ass

juskatladude

And besides, at least the Ontario NDP know a traitor when they see one and don't welcome him back with open arms and facilitate his treachery - but that required some moral sense I guess. Too much to expect from the party of Brian Mulroney and Karlheinz Schrieber I guess. They're too busy sending Garth Turner to the woodshed for speaking the truth to power.

Seems to me the "Conservatives" have given the Liberals a majority in about 18 months.
Perhaps Emerson will again want to cross the floor.
He's a real winner.

G West,

I have said from the beginning that I did not agree with either Emerson or the Conservatives on this one, and obviously they are my party of choice. But am I willing to set my hair on fire over it? No. Do I think the Canadian public will remember this in 18 months, or weeks for that matter? No. Will this happen again? Likely.

I am just trying to point out that, while not as significant as the Emerson story was a week ago, the Hargrove story is worthy of reporting. Now The Boob Story (must admit I have not read it but I like the photo!!) I am sure was of profound importance too, but do you not have to agree that perhaps a story about Buzz and the Ont NSP was worth reporting? Even the much maligned CKNW throws David Berner into the mix to give a view from the other side.

OK, I will also throw a very off topic question to you and the rest on this board. How does The Tyee make ends meet? I am sure that "Jorg and Olif", "Opinion 250" and "abebooks.com" paid handsomely, but do they really pay all of the costs? Just curious, but c'mon, who is footing the bill?

As for my only dropping in on occasion, well until things like teachers strikes, elections and Emersongate (hey, I like that) come along, most of the issues raised here just don't float my boat.

juskatladude
That's not surprising, I guess you prefer sites where anyone who disagrees is banned within 10 seconds of posting anything that doesn't toe the party line. Different strokes for different folks. As to the financing, not a question I can answer - but then there are a lot of right wing sites you could ask that question about too so I'd say it's a moot point.

juskatladude

One thing I can say, I don't think it's being financed by 'Focus on the Family'.

understandme: I'll keep it public. Thanks for the heads up. There might be a court order with the bank merger of Emersons back in the 80's. There might not. Everything else should be knowledge made public to the investor, through sedar.com where we can trace publicly traded companies to their origins with share issuances.

Dangrice: Harper's no genius. He's just another hack with no vision, an antagonist who suckers believed would come up with solutions to our problems, believed the "change" chant would be enough, believed in voting anyone but Liberal, and back east, anyone but liberal is Conservative. His support is built on the same common lust for power, but there are plenty of individuals and groups who have different ideas on how to use it. They'll get out the Brutus knives in time.

Harpers "organizing" has Mulroney's organizer written all over it. Same old mistakes, too. Little ones, like appointing deputies to Minister of International Co-operation and Minister for La Francophonie and Official Languages, who can't speak FRENCH.

And the NCC isn't going anywhere, or underground, or hiding, or putting their issues away, or giving up on court battles, and as such, their history and present agenda is extremely important. To think that it isn't important is to suggest that the great marriage between the NCC and the Reforms or the Cons and HARPER for that matter, is to is to deny we have a past or present at all in politics. Names like PC, Reform, Alliance mean nothing now? They do, but only to their regions that elected them and this Con denominator honeymoon won't last long. When guys like Mike Duffy are saying he doesn't know how Emerson can stay on as minister, its because its true.

Canadians have to adjust to change, as you suggest. But I assure you, what has changed is that we have a U.S. lobby organization that has infiltrated our very elected federal government through Harper. Just as we vote for people like Emerson without knowing what he does to profit off of government intelligence, we vote for parties like the Conservatives without knowing that they don't represent Canadians interests at heart. Oh, some Cons do. But there are a bunch of bad apples that may as well pay their taxes in the U.S., because that's the flag they fly.

Note that its likely 3 out of 4 voters who don't even know who the NCC really is! (Heck, its probably more) And on that note, I'm going provide these links until EVERYBODY KNOWS, at least, on this site. Note, that the National Citizens Coalition didn't even replace Harper with a president after he left. Technically, he's still in control! Note, that every motive within the NCC is the motive of Stephen Harper.

And what are you suggesting, that if Stephen Harper says something it makes it true? If Harper suddenly says, "I don't do the bidding of the NCC, or I won't appoint unelected officials," would you like a big long list of lies that you or anyone including myself can spin as mere contradictions? Its there.

Look at how many MP's have been passed up for the cabinet for those that Harper feels he can most control. He isn't united in this party. The majority of them aren't having any "fun" there. And its not going to get any better.

Dangrice, its not private information that we have to hack computers for, here. All we have to do is tell the truth in its proper forum. You know, get active. And there are still papers that aren't bought in this country. Its not 100% controlled by Americans and Israeli friends. Canfor, sure. Globe and mail, sure. Some suns... just look at who has been given the NCC's pompous "medal of freedom", and its a who's who of who the Americans have bought.

The only thing that will keep Harper in power an this point is if the Liberals choose a flunky as a leader. Its theirs to win or lose, and the NCC is the trump card to play, but only if they do it right.

UNDERSTANDME..

What you are forgetting is that the farther you get away from Vancouver, the more of a non-issue this becomes. Its painful here, but thats because its in our backyard. Harper isn't looking for BC to deliver him his majority, he's looking to the east.

What has happened is that no one is questioning any of Harper's other cabinet choices. And Harper doesn't need the support of the NDP or the Bloq, because he's got the support of the Liberals on all maters of confidence until they have a leadership convention. Why? Its a bad time to go into an election when you don't have a voice.

Yes the Liberals, NDP, and Bloq will oppose things like banning SSM. But the environment, criminal code, drug enforcement.. will they lead the offensive against rollbacks? Will the combined progressive forces of Stronach, Keith Martin, and Scott Brison, with Goodale and Graham lead the fight? Will Ignatieff and McCallum lead the battle for world peace.

The question, I would beg, is does anyone believe Harper didn't know the consequences of this move? We saw from the election how orchestrated the campaign was. It may be just my observation, i may be completely wrong, but i think this move served more than one purpose.

Brain: what makes you think that Harper is not a genius? I mean, Genius are not necessarily good, or pragmatic, or have any sort of vision. Often, Genius's actually show very antisocial behavior. They usually look for sources to use their genius, and not always for the right purposes.

The Brain:

I don't think Harper is another Mulroney but it's a rocky start for his government. Obviously you have a hate-on for Emerson but what exactly did he do that was illegal or immoral by holding the jobs that he had? Emerson is not a popular person right now due to his recent actions so belabouring any possible misdeeds of his in the past isn't going to accomplish much. Is there a need for greater restrictions on what a senior civil servant's employment options are? Are existing insider trading laws not effective? Think beyond just the individual shortcomings of Emerson to what systemic change is needed to prevent a repeat.

tara30:

Agreed. If we had more politicians like Chuck Cadman then Canada's citizens would be better served.

I think we need to pay special attention to unworthy candidates - be they a party leader's selected parachuted nomination or single-issue candidates who use narrow special-interest voting blocks to take over a riding nomination. The types of opportunistic candidates who use underhanded tactics to get their nominations aren't the highest calibre of people. In particular pay attention to who actually is paying the membership fees for all the instant party members and who controls access to the membership signup forms. There's plenty of dirt on a number of candidates from the two main Federal parties for this to be a non-partisan issue.

We as the electorate need to hold the candidates to higher standards. The candidate's personality and ethical fibre matter as much, if not more, than their party affiliation. Chuck Cadman showed that voting for the person rather than the party can be the best way to vote.

dangrice.com

No question, Machiavelli is in control. But I don't think the revulsion and disgust over the Emerson appointment is restricted to people in Vancouver.

And when some of the other 'ministers', bright lights like Gary Lunn and Monte Solberg to name just two of them, start to declaim on their areas of 'expertise' I have a feeling that Emerson won't be the last subject we'll have a chance to discuss.

At some point too, Garth Turner may not be the only member of the caucus with the intestinal fortitude to speak out about the disconnect between expectation and reality.

Good for BC? Answer me this, someone: If the Liberals had won and Emerson was named minister of something or other (as he would have), would you have said that was good for Canada or BC? BC had more ministers under the Libs than they do now, yet no one ever said that was good for BC.

And UNDERSTANDME: Easy on the CAPS, would ya? It's REALLY annoying. SERIOUSLY.

Gotta love this thread. It's just as convoluted as Rafe's column - no disrespect intended, only that Rafe's unfocused commentary hasn't provided a clear focus for this discussion.

If we're talking about the dynamics of the next Parliament, here's my two.five cents:

1) Don't expect the Liberals to sit back and lick their wounds until they elect a new leader. (and I say this as a social democrat, not a liberal). There are just too many opportunities to throw Harper's anaemic minority government off track, to wit:

a) The Liberals, NDP and Bloc can form a solid front on social policy issues, and freeze out the Cons. Child-care for example. The three parties can collectively draft legislation on childcare and pass it, no matter what the Cons say. Harper's mouthing off about child-care before he has even established his cabinet is an indication of his arrogance and hubris - and he has only been PM for under a month.

b) The Opposition parties can easily control the parliamentary agenda. Harper can bring forward his legislative agenda, but it has to pass the House. All it takes is a consensus by the Opposition to advance the social policies that would most benefit their candidates in an anticipated election in the next two years, and the Cons will be frozen out.

A strong Liberal/NDP/Bloc majority can take control of the parliamentary agenda in a way that was not possible with a Conservative Opposition in a minority Liberal government (managing the egos and credit-taking, however, is another issue altogether).

c) The Libs, and the NDP, and the Bloc all know all too well, that for every day they let Harper dominate the political agenda, the public sees him as a more credible Prime Minister. Above all, the Libs know the influence that can be wielded in swaying public opinion, through the deft wielding of the levers of government.

d) Look for the Opposition to present an alternative budget in (what is it, April when the cons are going to present it to Parliament)? The Opposition budget will kill Harper's chilcare initiative, blunt his attack on the gun registry, and generally create rhetorical havoc with the Con's political agenda.

The upshot is (and tell your friends you read it here first), that the three Opposition parties are all united in their desire to make a Harper government as short-lived as possible.

The Bloc sees the Cons as a very credible threat in Quebec, and so will want to limit their ability to tinker with the Quebec political agenda.

The NDP can't be seen as cooperating with a neo-con agenda, for fear of alienating the soft centre-left vote.

The Libs know that every day Harper is Prime Minister, diminished their opportunity to regain power.

So I say, look for an election in the summer of 2006. Harper will delay the introduction of the budget as long as possible, to maximize hs exposure as PM and attend as many foreign affairs events as possible. They know their real budget would never pass, so they will try to engineer their defeat on two or three issues that they think will resonate with the electorate (look for a loopy 'Hail Mary Pass' in their so-called Accountability package, or a strategic tax-cut proposal that they know the Opposition will be forced to deny).

Ahhh politics... ya gotta love it, eh wot?

rotlin:
Read my first post. I made it obvious. To give it further color, cited Section 8 of the Conflict of Interest Code for members of the House of Commons reads:

"When performing parliamentary duties and functions, a member shall not act in any way to further his or her private interests or those of a member of the member's family, or to improperly further another person's private interests."

A strong arguement can be made that Emerson furthered his own private interests defecting as an opposition MP to cabinet for its private perks, especially considering what Emerson has done with government information as a past MLA in BC. Fact is, Emerson broke conflict of interest codes in this province, but he wasn't called on it. Emerson wasn't fit to be an MP as a Liberal, never mind a Conservative. His millions made in private life with government intelligence speaks for itself.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1139611811907&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

Interesting story on Cons pick for human resources, Diane Finley.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1139526651401&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

This one might be a cut and paste into the I" adress, but its worth the read. It's another example of how obvious Harpers agenda is to some. (but again, no one is connecting the dots, and the reason why, I think, is lawsuits. Bloggers can get away with a lot, but journalists can't, a major distinction.)

Krispy

Interesting, but..... Why wouldn't the Bloc support Harper and his childcare program? Quebec already funds a set up that's the best in Canada so the province gains no matter what extra funding the cons give them. Under that scenario he can use the Bloc to pass childcare and ignore the Libs and the NDP. The Bloc couldn't care less about the long term and they'll always accept whatever money the feds want to ship down the Ottawa River because it furthers their narrow aims of separation.

Further, Harper wasn't just interested in Emerson as a pretty face on the front bench, he needs every warm body he can get to provide extra leverage to make side deals with whomever he can. He can use the NDP on accountability by drafting legislation that's not too different from Broadbent's proposals, for example, and then dare Layton not to support him. Would you like to go to the people on that issue?

Who'll stand up against a Justice bill that changes the age of consent to 16, gives guns to border guards and cancels the gun registry at the same time that it increases manditory minimum sentences for all federally indictable crimes?

Who's going to want to fignt an election on a budget that reduces the GST and gives a whole slew of tax points to the provinces and gets the majority of the provincial premiers on side?

And, in the end, do you really think the Libs, the NDP and the Bloc can get together to cobble up a program and bring it to the house under current parliamentary rules?

I agree that the longer Harper stays in power the better for the Cons but unless he's really stupid I can't see a Joe Clark scenario here. You may be right, in fact I hope you are - but I'm not convinced that the best strategy isn't a continued non-partisan attack on him right now to further fray his credibility and force his caucus to hold their nose despite the obvious contradictions between his promises and his practice. THe only problem is that the press has already started to lose interest and there's the rub.

Dangrice:
There are two kinds of smart, Dangrice. The first kind often remains in the brain, wasted, unless it comes out in a language that is recorded, like the language we use here on this sight, and as we know, languages take on many forms. What is the collective genius behind the languages of software that we are using now, or the binary codes, the languages that would take "genius" just to use? As smart as some of us are, we aren't good communicators, or we don't know how to express ourselves, or choose the language that best suits or promotes our ideology of whatever it is, likely, you know, in design, production, and/or distribution.

The second kind of smart not only knows how to communicate ideology, but understands that our vision or understanding of the world is limited or unlimited not so much so by our experiences or immediate environments, but by what we seek!! (This is where Harper is a true dunce) Some of us swim in oceans, while others swim in ponds.

What we look for, either imprisons us or sets us free. In other words, its fine to have potential intelligence. Its quite another to fulfill that potential. Genius's have both potential (ability) and potential fulfilled, but its still much more than this.

Success on any level takes more than potential. It takes a good goal, good will, and a good plan, and the pieces, be it human or otherwise, to get this plan past design and into production and distribution (you know, action). In politics, its get elected (usage of media), draft legislation (design), production (get it passed) and distribution (media, education). Ultimately, genius is defined not by failure, but by success!

And what is Harper's potential, will, goal and plan? What was Hitlers potential, goal, will and plan! While many look at Hitler as a genius for his ability and plan to control his masses and incite support for his causes, his will and goals were ones of lunacy and as such, he left his country in complete failure and ruin, hardly something to be confused as genius.

Likewise, Harper is just another predator who's been brainwashed by economists at his Calgary University, his own egotistical search of political power, and his own, I think, distorted vision of what he thinks this country should be... a distinct extension of the U.S. And to me, that's not genius. Harper might have the plan for it, but his very will and his goals are for the most part, out to lunch.

To me, his goals and his will filled with pride, I might add, is dangerous and take my word for it. The second kind of "smart" hasn't by any means truly contested Harper just yet. But it will, for Harpers agenda is one that can spell economic ruin for this country in several sectors, including permanently decentralizing Federal govermental powers and if this happens, our very identity as Canadians will go through profound, and negative changes. Harper won't succeed without a major fight from anyone who has thought it through and connects the dots.

G West,

That's pretty funny. I went to your link and boy is she a hoot. Solberg quoting her as an authority on Kyoto is so Medicine Hat.

juskatladude, are you saying the Tyee should have had a story on Buzz Hargrove today? The Tyee is like a magazine, not a paper. Its like asking why Macleans didn't have an issue in the mail today all about Buzz. Even an article on the Danish cartoons took a while to show up here. There's no conspiracy, really, there isn't.

That's David-"I voted for Campbell"-Berner?

krispy,

Good point!

The brain

Sorry man! Bad idea, Hitler comparisons are for the birds. Not fair to Harper and not fair to Hitler either, he's sui generis, as far as I'm concerned.

Brain, I'm not sure if idealism, hope, and humanity have anything to do with intelligence. Ultimately, for most, self interest is the guiding power.

Its creativity that gives us a bit of a reprieve, and observation that gives us understanding, intelligence just gives us the means of carrying though, but we still need to choose our path.

The Brain:

The tone in your posting is obvious but the factoids you present to support your case are not as to what exactly Emerson's misdeeds are. He changed his job a few times and made money. Needs more specificity to support an allegation of actual wrong doing rather than innuendo about impropriety. Sounds like you know this as you want to research more facts. Good luck in your research but until you have something concrete there's enough to pillorize Emerson on than past actions that don't smell right.

Furthering private interests is a weak argument in this case. Emerson's defence is that his actions in crossing to the Conservatives are to better represent his constituents on the government side answering questions rather than asking them on the opposition. The affair of Auberge Grand-Mere with Chretein's undeclared interest in the golf course and interference with the BDC loan to the hotel was more worthy of a conflict of interest investigation but that didn't go anywhere. It's not realistic to expect Emerson to be sanctioned for his actions by anyone other than his constituents in the next election.

In general the police don't put enough resources into white-collar crime. One can only hope the RCMP will attempt a bribery sting like the FBI did with their Abscam so that the next Karl-Heinz Schreiber and cohorts have their own "bait car" program to fear.

G West: Ahhh, you might have a point. Hitler being sexually diseased and all, but I still maintain that Harper is no genius. If Harper succeeds, it will originate from and lead to failure that we all have to share, like Mulroney's failures and Trudeau's and everyone else who wasn't powerless but did nothing to prevent it.

Dangrice: for most, self getting mechanisms are the main guiding power... and for most, their intelligence behind it shows. I gather that you believe will is perhaps the most important part of all, and in many ways it is, for without good will, there is no sight on good goals or appropriate searches for the plans that are likely to be the most successful. And it sounds like we both agree that its not just any one thing, but a combination or integration of things that have to come together to be successful or to see genius realized, and ultimately, it does comes down to success and its benefactors.

As I have learned through past experiences, it is far better for me to pursue goals that are best for the big picture, always, especially when it comes down to whats best for me, for I am in that picture. In other words, for me, anyways, selfishness or selflessness are both extremes that lead to self destruction. It is looking out for everyone including ourselves in the general will, goal and plans that lead to the balance needed to avoid such extremes. To put it in Harpers context, I'm certain that Harper isn't doing this by what he says, does and pursues.

Rotlin:
Time will tell. As posted, I know where to look when it comes to shares appointed by CFO's to CEO's and directors. And, as posted, I do expect a judge to have run smoke in the aforementioned bank mergers. But conflicts of interest in terms of Emerson profiting directly off of government intelligence with his CEO appointment at Canfor, along with his director role at TERESEN is highly likely to be interpeted as a blatant conflict of interest violation within the minds of voters who know this, and if Emerson conducted his MLA past behavior as an MP, he definitely would be violating section 8 of the conflicts of interest code for federal MP's.

Provincial conflicts of interests as MLA's are something I need research. At this point, I do not yet know if federal conflict of interest laws extend to MLA's, or if its separate, or if the provinces have conflict of interest legislation at all. It could be that there is none to violate for all I know... for now, other than the regular criminal codes of this country that Emerson has not yet technically violated.

Whether or not Emerson is innocent of regular laws governing the average person in this country, Emerson is an elected public servant that is held under much greater accountablity, especially in the Federal scene and while I agree with you that there isn't much that can be done with him with walking the floor, its what Emerson did as an MLA that concerns me.

Emerson took government intelligence and used it to promote his private life in terms of better status and monetary gain on several occuasions and this, I think, with any voter who would have known his past dealings more thoroughly in Vancouver Kingsway, would have been dealt with accordingly, and we would have had a different outcome than we saw in this last election. To that end, I would like to see justice done.

What I do know from what I don't know is that I could be mere hours away from what I need to know, and another 8 hours or less away from looking up every MP's email adress in this country, to send them a uniform message of what I'm about to find out if I do find broken laws or legal challenges in the house of commons. At the very least, shares doled to Emerson for what he knew from Teresen alone would be enough to mention in the Commons, I think even to demand that Emerson step down by the opposition parties. A majority vote in the house of commons can send any member packing but they need the reason and the legal precedent to do so. It might yet be there.

Understandme: Your post was definitely insightful. I'm glad you joined the thread, dude. Later.

Hey 4Cryinoutloud you got what you deserved, had you done your home work on this guy you probably wouldn't have voted for him! Now we are all stuck with him!

justkatladude says "I have said from the beginning that I did not agree with either Emerson or the Conservatives on this one, and obviously they are my party of choice. But am I willing to set my hair on fire over it? No. Do I think the Canadian public will remember this in 18 months, or weeks for that matter? No. Will this happen again? Likely"

So you support your party of choice when they made bad moves and critisize others right to do the same, bit of a hyprocrit aren't you?

so justy baby you still support harper? Why do you support someone who says one thing and does another, do you not expect the people you support to have honour, to do what they say and say what they will do. Unlike gordo and harper.

Rafe is right when he says harper screamed like a stuck pig when Stronach bailed on the conservatives, kinda like a bully, its ok when they are doing the hurting but when someone hurts them they whine the loudest!

The way I see it if someone changes sides they have no credibility, no honour, what we do in this lifetime does echo in eternity. They used to hang turncoats now they give them raises and trot out the damage control, guys like norm spector who is fighting for a state and it isn't in my opinion Canada he is fighting for.

Didn't spector do the same for gordo when he got caught driving drunk, but for the grace of god there go I said spector I seem to recall. So what is spector the official apologist for rightwingers who get caught doing something the rest of us would be called for and rightly so.

juskatladude writes:

I try to read all opinions on this site with equal respect and consider differing opinions to carry equal weight. But, you think Berner represents a view that is somehow different from the far right of centre norm in that media?

All I can say is; Wow! I don't need more to know where you are located on the spectrum juskatladude.

In a well written and reasoned piece by Sunny, he makes but one comment that I think needs a slight correction here.

I don't think Harper's and the Neocons election result was so much an indicator of trust in these folks, for the memories of Mulroney and Conservative betrayal and incompetence still actually burn startlingly bright in surprisingly large numbers of people. More, this election result sprang from a stronger public need than most of us appreciated, including myself, to punish the Liberals for their criminality. And in this latter, folks were caught between a rock and a hard place within the limited choices of current democracy, mistakenly perhaps for some of you, but not really considering the NDP, and even less the Greens, as serious alternative possibilities.

So the distrust of the Conservatives has really been there from the get go actually, but simply underscored and maybe giving folks some sudden realization that they may have fuked up again.

And likewise, though Lynn has beat me to the point here as well, I will merely add my agreement with this point of Sunny's as well. We are not playing with freshman politicos here, though they have been out of formal "political state" power for a long time. These guys have been and are rooted in the circles of the ruling economic and political elits of this country for a very long time.

One of the practical advantages of being assigned to the political wilderness for a long time, is you get to view the political process more dispassionately from some distance and objectivity. There are disadvantages, but that is the main advantage. And it gives political persons and forces an opportunity to sharpen their intellectual understanding and analyses of what is evolving, the weaknesses, and the opportunities in the Grand Game.

These guys, like the entire neoconservative movement amongst the ruling class emerging world wide, have made their analyses, are determined and ready to act upon it, confident in its essential correctness, and though we may disagree with them and the interests they represent, and they are and are going to make misteps, we would be naive to think these guys and gals are complete fools.

They are not. They are more dangerous than that.

It is mostly the great "street" mass out there who are still really needing to get up to speed, and maybe ourselves more than a tad.

A good piece of writing Sunny, and many good and salient points, I think.

And Brain continues to evolve in his writing skills and analysis no leas as well, imho. (After a somewhat rocky start? :-)

A good day folks, I am about many tasks today.

(I must say though, it is a thin stone soup that Tyee has been throwing us "politophiles" for nourishment of late. Though women's breasts are always "uplifting" to talk about, yet being much a "leg man" myself, perhaps Tyee could give us a leg up there as well.

Alright, I lie..., even women's elbows turn me on. :-)"

Gosh with all of the fire and outrage, you'd think something bad has happened. Crossing the floor (I don't care in which direction) is part of the solution, not part of the problem.

With a parliamentary system, we vote for representatives that are supposed to REPRESENT us, the constituents. Party discipline is the antithesis of local representation. When the Party Whip can enforce party discipline, local representation suffers.

We are not a republic. We don't have an elected bicameral house. Our MP is our only voice, but for most of the time, MPs are zombies.

Every time an MP walks, Party discipline is shaken, and local representation benefits as fear of other losses loosens party control.

The sound of footsteps in parliament is the loudest, most powerful sound a single MP can make. Whenever I hear that sound, I hear our representative system working.

Any talk of laws restricting the rights of MPs to act according to their own conscience, specifically, to bar or inhibit walking the floor comes from a profound misunderstanding of Parliamentary tradition, and is an attack on our system of Government.

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with crossing-the-floor but when Stephen Harper specifically campaigned against this practice that is where the problem is. Hypocracy is what gets me. Yes, Belinda crossed the floor after she had been told she had no future.

The Emerson case is not the same, I have never seen someone change so soon after an election. He would have been a powerful power broker in the up-coming Liberal leadership race.

I am glad Harper has imploded, this will temper his policies in the months to come. Or, perhaps it will be just a few weeks.

tcahill, you are a breath of fresh air.

Thank you for the post reminding all of what we are really electing when we cast a vote.

Mel from Calgary intones:

Harper hipocracy, fine, every other PM has been a hypocrite so why not this one?

Regarding Emerson, yes this is EXACTLY the SAME as Stronach. Emerson only ran for elected office because Mr. Dithers asked him to. Then he did not get out and build any consensus or machine to convince the electors of anything, he got a LiEberal Parachute into a 'safe' riding.

Now, on the same night that they loose, Mr. Dithers bails out from the party leadership; this is a warning bell to any parachute candidate that has not built any riding association support. Emerson must have known that the riding association would want to find another candidate if they could have, or he would have to toady for a new party leader to get the same parachtue action. All this while in an opposition role.

Emerson is no fool, and must have known that unless he had loads of insiders in PQ he has no hope of any influence on the next LiEberal Party Leader. Therefore when the brass ring is offered again by the head-hunting Harper - he takes it.

JUST LIKE BELINDA STRONACH DID WHEN PM DITHERS NEEDED A VOTE.

The two are the same, exactly and precisely because the NDP cannot provide enough votes to support the party in power.

tcahill: Emerson's move, however, was neither about representation nor principle. Parliament was not even in sesssion yet.

Please enlighten us as to what concerns of the people he was representing in this move(details please) and what principle he based his crossing the floor on...(details as well, please)....and how long he laboured on this decision...and what members of his consituency he consulted with?

As I saw his constituency office rep. state on the news that they had no idea he was going to make this move and that they were still completely in the dark. They were completely blind-sided, apparently. Is that how representation of the people works?

.

Which may be a clue to Harper's real intention which has not yet been mentioned.

lynn inquires:

legally?

yes.

morally or traditionally?

no.

But then our traditions are eroding all over the place...

Why should governance be immune to the kinds of social change happening everywhere else?

In case anyone missed this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/11/international/americas/11canada.html

Murdock, okay, I'll agree that most if not all PMs' have a heavy scent of hypocracy, however this is exactly why politicians rank lower than a snakes belly in the ordinary persons eyes.
Most of us have heard the "if your classmate, friend, whoever, jumped off a bridge would you do it?"

Harper and crew (as others before) all proclaimed that they'd bring acountablity to the HOC. His choices in the first days of his term have done little to lift his persona any higher than the previous snake(s).

This has been discussed to death in the last week. But my question to you or anyone, really, is how can the Canadain people bring change to the behaviors of the MPs or PMs if the only recourse is one vote every few years because once in office they all seem to get light headed and forgetful at the scent of the trough. Like I said to you last week, how do we take over the maintenance (control) of the fence (HOC) when the fence posts (MPs) are the only ones who have the control?

I think the point, as some have tried to emphasize, has never been just Emerson. His electors have every right to feel the way they do even if his actions are technically within the bounds of precedent and tradition. Still, no elector in Vancouver Kingsway is wrong to feel wronged since Emerson’s betrayal of trust is particularly egregious.

The primary focus should always be on Harper and his solicitation of Emerson for narrow political purposes. Harper is the one who promised to do politics differently according to a re-aligned ethical compass and he's the one who has fallen short of his own personal and political ideals, fallen short big time. That's the real issue here - that his promises and his actions don't comport with expectations, promises and commitments (except perhaps those backroom promises to change this nation into a kind of pale theocracy) and that talks to the agenda - hidden or otherwise - that Canadians have to be concerned about now. Emerson is just the latest in a long line of elitist politicians who think they know what's best for the electors and have the chutzpah to act on that false belief. If Davie Emerson really cared about the Canadian people and wanted to devote his 'talents' to the country he could have resigned his seat and asked to be appointed deputy minister of International Trade and the road to Whistler and What have you. He has lots of experience as an upper-echelon civil servant and we all know that ministers are frequently just the window dressing in these big international deals anyway. That way he’d have been able to make the sacrifices he thinks he's so qualified to undertake for the good of his country and he wouldn't have betrayed any voters, in my view. People might actually have thanked him for doing that instead of turning him into a pariah.

All the emphasis on Emerson is fine but that's not the real issue. Funnily enough it's the conservative voter who has the most right and obligation (but clearly lacks the moral sense) to be upset!

Not that the rest of us aren't upset too, it's just that we never believed the promises or subscribed to the agenda in the first place.

Sorry to sound harsh Murdock but

You sound like one of those glossy eyed partisan fools. I would be pissed if I was a conservative, one week has killed all credibility in the party and its leader, one week man. Alberta is apparently in open revolt on so many levels, you cannot run on a ethics platform and then pull this crap without looking like a pack of
hypocrites, what else are they capable of if they pull this crap with a minority, god help us if they ever have a majority.

James Moore , young conservative star gets a secretary job to an appointed minister from Quebec who didn't even run and won't sit in the house, man that's gotta hurt, what a way to treat party loyalists.

By some peoples logic, the voter should expect to be duped and lied to, its the new dynamic, why run on ethics at
all, just tell the voter, hey we want power , we really have scandal envy, we are pissed because we really want to
be corrupt to, we just want our turn. The only issue is getting the drooling masses to vote for us, tell them what they need to hear.

Sorry Murdock stop playing with dogs, you catch a few fleas.

BLONDE PITBULL asks:

one word.

revolt.

Whether a simple tax revolt or a more serious armed one is a matter of choice.

but without such an action expect no real changes.

G West writes:

This 'promise' cannot legally be presented in written form, therefore it cannot 'legally' be contested.

It is for these reasons that the 'promises, promises' of all candidates must be considered suspect.

The voters of Vancouver-Kingsway clearly did not inquire enough about the LiEberal associated candidate. But then he was parachuted in by a party that thinks nothing of pilfering MP's from other parties.

The Conservative riding association(s) wishes are respected (a hold over from the Reform days, I think that this too will soon see 'change'), unlike the LiEberals. Thus the push was seen on Chuck Cadman by his own 'riding association', thankfully the electors of Surrey North could see through this action and elected an Independant Cadman, someone whose words and deeds matched; integrity. This is why the Conservatives are not complaining, they already got to speak, within their own group. The LiEberals did not, so it is understandable that they feel 'tricked'. But then they were fooled by Mr. Dithers 'appointment' rather than really dealing with 'democratic deficits'

Stuart, calling me a fool, writes:

...

By some peoples logic, the voter should expect to be duped and lied to

...

Sorry Murdock stop playing with dogs, you catch a few fleas.

Not partisan at all, the partisan ones are the toadies that permanently toe the party line and are unwilling to really, really speak for themselves and by association their constituents.

Voters, in BC, have been lied to since 1873, as the minority report of Helmcken recommended not associating BC with Ottawa. One of the other commissioners was sick and did not report; the third was bought and paid for by the railway committee. So in reality the decision to join 'confederation' was not done by anyone it was just quietly penciled in.

Voters, in Alberta and Saskatchewan are going to be in for a very large shock when they finally learn that the subsurface rights to everything are still owned in Ottawa. So they have been lied to also.

So, Stuart, stop being a flea.

But the voters change parties all the time. I think people can do what they like. But I still think the way Emerson did it stinks. Too quick after the election. Didn't even sit in the House to see what kind of government he would be joining. Afterall, he just campaigned against them for two months without seeing how they'd do in government.

Yeah, Murdock sounds EXACTLY like a party hack. Look, Murdock, if it's EXACTLY the SAME as Stronach, I would expect you to act EXACTLY the SAME towards it. If it's so terrible when a party you don't like does something hypocritical, then it should be damn well just as terrible (or worse) when a party you support does something hypocritical.

Of course, though, the Emerson and Stronach situations are NOT exactly the same. Not even close. That Murdock and his ilk refuse to admit that tells us more about them than it does the situations.

the universe will continue to unfold as it should. emerson is a mere pimple on the arse of our planet. there is very little difference between the liberals and the conservatives.

big business didn't care who won, they just wanted a majority so business could carry on with minimal interuption.

grw says:

Alright, I'll bite.

What, praytell, does it tell you about me so much?

I do not carry any political party card, I cannot stand any of the main-stream parties and I considered formally rejecting my ballot in the last election, but decided it was a waste of time and resources which is a big piss off for me about all of what BIG GOVERNMENT does.

So my actions matched my words; integrity.

Again, what does my words and saying that crossing-the-floor of Stronach or Emerson is the same?

It says, for one thing, that you can't analyse situations very well. That you don't see details very well. You see the broad strokes -- two people crossed the floor, ergo it's the same situation. You don't see context clearly. This may or may not speak to your intelligence, I'm not sure. But it clearly says that about you.

murdock

Y'know lad, kindly don't accuse me of saying I'm not aware of your juridical approach to everything. The fact that there is no legal case for attacking Mr Emerson's opportunism and Mr. Harper's dissembling is a total non sequitur relative to what I've been saying. You need to pay more attention. I freely admit to what you’ve been saying – I just don’t agree that it’s relevant to what is being discussed here.

It's clear that you want to set up a republic of British Columbia and the only kind of change you're willing to talk about relates to that that end. I, and others, think it’s a bad idea that would bring with it as much fear, unhappiness and dissatisfaction as the so-called 'system' we have now. In fact, I think a Republic of British Columbia might soon grow warts that were worse than the ones defacing the body politic right now.

Not everyone agrees with you. Nor is everyone so jaded as to think that they believe that you and your ideas represent the only alternative in my opinion. In politics, as in life, perception and attitude, frustration and emotion have a lot to do with reality and to deny everyone else the right, or the moral obligation, to complain about what they see as breaking and or bending the rules is neither fair minded nor logical. Just because one doesn't have a legal case hardly affects the justice of a moral argument. Change usually comes incrementally unless it is stimulated by revolutionary fervour and I distrust revolutionaries of all stripes - conservative or otherwise – you included.

Just a couple of points

I don't know how anyone could take this piece as apologizing for Emerson/Harper.
It was intended to show the hypocrisy in all parties.

Grumpy seems to be one of the few who actually read the article.

grw, attempts psychoanalysis:

I believe that I see the details of the situation (as they are present in the available media) quite well.

Emerson is a duly elected MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, and as such has the freedom of any MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT to take such actions as he pleases. IF his action do not please his constituents he will have to answer for that.

Right from the start of this situation I saw that Harper had used the word 'solicit', but then so did Mr Dithers when he made Belinda a minister in his government.

Whether the House of Commons is in session or not, whether it is one minute or one year after the election of the MP, he or she is free to act.

I see the details very well thank you.

I see the context just fine and I think that your attempt at analysis is saying that YOU are reconsidering your party afiliations and questioning your understanding of the way Government 'works'.

G West,

sounds like you are mistrusting all things.

were I that much of a revolutionary (violent) I would not be wasting time here.

in the long-term, I see the end of Canada as we have come to know it, all I want is to see an honest discussion of the 'warts' as you put it.

yes the legal approach is the first step in such discussions as this is what is seen by many as the stick to use. I am simply pointing out the errors in that approach.

moral thunder is fun, but to what end?

Which may be a clue to Harper's real intention which has not yet been mentioned."

In bloody deed, Lynn. Is it really the thin edge of the wedge, of a furture Grand Conservative-Liberal Alliance we a seeing tentatively, and perhaps a tad over-anxiously, emerge here. Outside of sheer opportunism, which it may be, though I sense more calculation in what has occurred here, this is the more likely explanation of what is early in play here. (Actually proceeding more quickly than even I had anticipated, assuming for the moment that I am right here.)

The ruling class likes pro-business majority governance, able to have its way with and set the public agenda and interpret its interest and over-ride any, especially working class rooted/tainted opposition or "equalizing" agendas. And emerging federally is a situation not unlike B.C., where only an at least closet Alliance, or even an out of the closet one, of the main Rightist Parties can deliver that.

It's the horse I'm watching in this race. I haven't put any money down yet, but the odds are increasingly in motion I think. And Emerson has placed himself where he can be one of the major dealmakers in this process. And Harper has got to know this, yet he has invited the fox into his hen house. I think the Neocons see what I see taking shape here-, in yet its relatively though gathering momentum days.

A new alternative ruling class power nexus is setting itself up to emerge in Canadian class politics. Get ready for it.

Also for G West:

your earlier posts indicated you wanted to see changes, possibly called 'revolutionary' in nature.

Do you now distrust yourself?

murdock not sure if your aware of this, grw considers its self (gender unknown) Most Exulted GURU of the Tyee site and has infinite wisdom to all things, past, present and future, just ask it.

Murdock,
We are not in disagreement over whether someone has the right to cross the floor (although I'd have loved to have read your posts right after the Belinda crossing -- the fact that you write "Lieberals" and "Mr. Dithers", yet don't have a silly name for the Conservatives or Harper also say something about your allegiances, contrary to your public assertions). And they may even have a right to cross one minute after the election. However, since that scenario had never played out before, uh, ever in the history of our country, it would seem that it alone makes this situation unique.

And I still think it's funny that you would slam the Liberals so hard over Belinda and with Emerson say, "oh, that's just the way politics works."

And to you, Mr. Mair, I read your story. I didn't take it to be soft on Emerson, but since you are also suggesting, 'hey, that's just the way things are done, politics is dirty,' etc., then it comes off as an excuse.

Wow, until today, I didn't think anyone even read my posts! But just tell me, Woody, where I'm wrong. I know you like to come on and just take cheap shots. But just stick to the details. if that's not out of your grasp.

for grw,

I am not slamming the CONformers any more or less than I did when I laughed at Belinda crossing the floor, my only unhappiness with BS's choice is that it supported Mr. Dithers in government for longer, then pushed us into the difficult winter election.

It was the short time at the start of the winter election that made it very difficult for independant or 'other' party candidates to organize (I know I looked into it and tried to help another).

I was totally pleased to see PQ elect an independant this time and hope that his example will serve to get more Indi's into the House.

So I did not make any different response to the Blonde Bomb shell than I have to Emerson, the names come from the time in office so the CONformer PM still has to earn his, like Mr. Dithers did.

rafe:

Oh I got it Rafe, and so I have been trying to point out since then that the electorate has been 'tricked' again.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

So it is I am trying to shame the electors that continue to VOTE for any of the main stream parties.

Murdock, m'lad, what I actually said was the following:

I don't accept that as being the same thing as wanting a revolution.

I'm not interested in a Republic of BC. Sorry, you won't get me to support the kind of catharsis you think is necessary. I've never said that writing comments to this kind of forum would ever achieve much either, if you'd actually read what I've been writing. As for thunder, I think you're the chief offender in that department, truth to tell. No hard feelings though!

hey rafe !

ya notice the word HYPOCRISY in all those posts above ???

i think most got your point...u jes get pissed off when we takes a jab atcha fer a little fun.

but u knows we luvs ya...cause ya gets our juices flowin...

G West

none taken

cheers!

Is it against the law to tar and feather someone?

that the RELIGIOUS RIGHT WING

fueled by OIL BUCKS from WESTERN CANADA is now in power...

scares the beejeebers out of most Canadians...most are,as many know, MOR and vote according to what policies/promises, are...

that we all voted for CHANGE (wasn't that the mantra? )we now feel DUPED (as many have said) and being a NATION of DECENT people...we have been hollering like stuck pigs for someone to rectify the situation...

hypocricy is the BUZZWORD on the lips of all...

but the fear of what is down the road can be readily seen in almost all postings that i have read on the numerous sites visited.

it shows we,jack and jill public, do have a MORAL COMPASS and we want our PARLIMENTARY SYSTEM to echo ...our wants and desires...not big governments ideals and certainly not that of big business...

our DISTASTE of the issues of Harper et al...SHOW CANADIANS AS DECENT PEOPLE LOOKING FOR REAL...CHANGE...

small wonder that...some are indeed setting their hair on fire...

it's better than the self immolation that monks used to practice in viet nam...to protest their frustration

grw says But just tell me, Woody, where I'm wrong. I know you like to come on and just take cheap shots.
(1)The question being,not where you are wrong, but rather where are you right?
(2)Stateing a fact is not a cheap shot, ok.

Two points to begin with Lynn:
1) Enlightenment is found within oneself
2) I am not privy to the details you request

I ain't goin' down that road. I rarely vote for parties, I prefer to vote for individuals. This is Canada. We don't get to vote for who will be Prime Minister. Our teeny tiny role is to select someone who will represent us in deciding the big important stuff.

Here's a tip for everyone to consider: Stop being partisan. It doesn't help anyone, and recent research indicates that it causes (at lease temporary) brain damage. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/24/science/24find.html?ex=1140066000&en=c478b76da0eb49f8&ei=5070

I refuse to start with an assumption that any single person or group engaged in the Civic Duty of politics does so for anything less than noble and honorable motives. Mistakes and errors in judgement happen. Demonizing or canonizing the culprits doesn't help.

Objectively, one can make the case that:

an MP from the largest urban center in western Canada -- a center devoid of any other representation in government;

an MP with experience as a chief executive in one of the largest Canadian owned forestry companies -- an industry involved in a trade dispute of critical importance to the economy of the west;

an MP whose elevation to the position of Minister of International Trade -- the minister who will spearhead Canada's response to US Trade aggression;

an MP who prevailed in an election historic in it's ambiguity over voter intentions -- where it could be argued that constituents voted for the man, not the party; http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060213.BCSPECTOR13/TPStory/specialComment/columnists

did his duty to best represent his constituents by crossing the floor and joining the Government as a powerful Minister.

I must say that I've never voted for a Conservative candidate, I don't particularly care for Mr. Emerson, and in this last election I did vote for the liberals by casting a vote for someone I'd never heard of who was running for that Party.

We've survived Conservative governments in the past, and I'm thinking Mr Harper will not prove equal to the infamy achieved by Mr. Mulroney.

Canada tends to get pretty ossified and hide-bound sticking to the status-quo for decades at a time. I am hopeful that the near-term political future of Canada will be entertaining and productive. Let's all try to be nice, and wait and see.

Eddy,

Not at all. I believe the oil industry actually encourges this approach. I believe the down quilt industry also heartily approves.

The legal profession is a different kettle of fish however.

hey tcahil !

THAT DON'T CUT IT...we the people gotta get back to work and keep the roof over our heads and out stomachs filled...

so the MACHIAVELLIANS that are in power know our attention span is LIMITED...

so if we sit back and do SQUAT...that means we are COMPLICIT in any LEGAL/MORAL decision down the road.

so CANADIANS being decent people are SCREAMING...so that these ARROGANT BASTARDS...just might fugure out...that ...we the people are not amused...

and a quck ...off topic.

matthew vaudreill...remember the name ???

that over 700 children have died under CAMPBELL'S RULE...shows what sit back and see what happens, brings to the table !!!

Wow tcahill

David sounds like a wonderful and talented man, I am sure everyone voted for him and not the party values

Maybe David should hold a bi election , he would win for sure. You arguments make sense (of course you would have nullify 81% of the voters will) but the media and David himself knows what's best. Why did we have the facade of an election, why not just let The Board of Trade pick the winners and CKNW trumpet their good qualities.

In short the masses don't really know what's good for them, their way out of line expecting their democratic will be observed, the myth of democracy is starting to crack, I myself intend to do my part , I will take David's lead
in ethics and run as a hard line conservative and take a Surry or valley riding, once I win I will vote with the NDP on all issues. You see those fools in the valley are so misguided. They really don't know what's best for them as a community.

UNDERSTANDME asks: "non sequitur anyone?"

Any number of dead or dying children is lamentable. So is trying to exploit that tragedy to make what point exactly?

Upper Caps means I'M SHOUTING. If you had a microphone you could do a Bill O’Reilly and yell SHUT UP, and that might drown me out.

Interesting ideas Stuart:
[David sounds like a wonderful and talented man, I am sure everyone voted for him and not the party values]
You're talking about the Liberals Right? Did anybody vote for them based on their values? That's not why I voted for them.

Our political system patronizes us (as in "Don't patronize me". As in "Let me take a few minutes to explain to you what patronizing means"). Our system assumes that we should not have a direct voice, but that we need representatives in a "Commons" (Think about the elitist origins of that name). So your sarcasm is actually pretty spot on.

My point is that there is no need for a bi-election, we just had an election. If David were to resign with the intention of running again in another election, that would really be a waste. When you vote, you place your X beside the name of a person. If we lived in Israel, we'd just vote for a party, and that party would decide which of it's members would sit in the Knesset.

Please do run for office. Everyone should at least once in their life.

tcahil

UPPER CAPS...SHOUTING !

only someone stuck in the convention of inane rules would espouse STUPIDITY...like a LACKEY

every rule is made by those who would control others...

ANAL RETENTIVES...that want power like your MACIAVELLIAN BIG BUSINESS BUDDIES you want us to watch while they SCREW US OVER...BIGTIME

that you feel i must follow your type of pathetic allegiance to a MACHINES ETIQUITTE bespeaks volumes of your lack of intellect..

that i point out children die while people stand around having coffee and talking about what they should do....SHOWS YOU FOR WHAT YOU ARE...PROBABLY SOME BURECRATIC BUTTLICKER THAT DOESNT HAVE THE FORTITUDE...TO DO ANYTHING OF SUBSTANCE...so you stand around with that same WAIT AND SEE attitude!!!

UNLESS OF COURSE YOUR MASTERS GIVE THE COMMAND!

to UNDERSTAND what that wait and see attitude brings to the table....SEEMS TO ESCAPE YOU...COMPLETELY

ERGO........... YOU MUST BE A BURECRAT

hey UNDERSTANDME, How's that medication working out?

hey tcahil !

pretty good !

what u on ???

hey tcahil! ya doze off

Colchicine and Inomethacin for Gout.

Cheers!

Grumpy, you are correct about the first part. About Canada being a 3rd world country, I suggest you go live in one for a while and then say that. There is no comparison and I know that from first hand experience.

Rafe, you are also correct, I would wager few posting here have read your article. Lefties tend to be rather Holier than Everybody Else and this is especially true of the federal kind as they never have and never will form a government.

hey Working Man !

i disagree with the presumption you make about the POSTERS not reading Rafe's article...

i do agree that when venting on the subject posters can go down some real backroads.

THE BEST POST ...imho...is KRISPY'S first post stating that Rafe WAS ALL OVER THE BOARD in his article....which is APPARENT !

that's why i stated in my first post THAT RAFE MUSTA BEEN GLEANING the posts for his article...cause it COULD HAVE BEEN ...CUT AND PASTED...faster than writing it...

no! i am not accussing rafe of plagarism...it was a jest...in this day and age INFORMATION is so FREE AND EASY to access that it would be easy to do as i jested...

i read all posts...that way ,i can reply in confidence...i think as you say though...MANY JUST START FROTHING AT THE MOUTH WHEN IN FACT...THEY SHOULD BE TAKING A DEEP BREATH...

then again...nothing would ever get done if we were all the same in nature .

and you do RAFE an injustice in saying not many read the article...i know many people who love to hear/read what mrs.mairs little boy has to offer...so they can have their daily meltdown ...

An interesting note in this discussion. Just before the election we had a local all candidates meeting, although all were not represented, perhaps not all were invited.
What is of particular interest is the fact that it was the Liberal candidate in our riding who expressly pushed the idea of "strategic" voting to keep the AllianceConservatives (my name for them) out of government. How interesting that strategic voting worked to gain Emerson a seat which he so quickly exchanged...

I stick to my view on politics, get rid of political parties, it is impossible for them to represent any but a very small subset of society, as it is proven time and time again. The only "party" I will support is one whose platform is to inform and represent, and immediately disband to become independents the moment they take power.

The only kind of "strategic" voting that makes any sense at all is where the parties decide to not run in alternate ridings so as to ensure more predictable results. But this ignores the obvious - without parties, we have no need for "strategic" voting.

I voted for Andrew Lewis of the Green Party - not because he belongs to that party, but because he was the only candidate running in my riding who did any research BEFORE the election on monetary reform, attending a talk given by Bill Krehm of Comer (comer.org), along with Connie Fogel of the Canadian Action Party. Connie's part of the talk dealt with sovereignty, what should truly be on every Canadian political party's platform.

I, for one, will not "wait and see", as it has been suggested, what this government does to sell Canada further out of the grasp of our children's and future generations' hands. My local "representative" will have plenty of input from me by phone and email. I urge all others to stay in touch with their local representatives to keep aware of issues being dealt with, and how they plan to vote. See if it's in line with what you would vote...

Donn Tarris
Salt Spring Island, BC

tcahill

First of all, I'm not sure you've read enough of the posts on this subject to conflate everything that's been written here with partisanship. In fact, I wager it would take you more than two hours to read everything in the several postings and articles that have treated with the subject: I don't think you should assume what you come across in the past 20 minutes justifies the conclusion that what's happening here has any parallels with the research discussed in the article from the New York Times. In fact, if you want to find a site where partisanship runs rampant I can suggest several if you're interested.

Second, if you read the material here you also realize that much of the commentary hasn't concluded that Davie Emerson is the primary guilty party. Most people have little problem with Mr. Emerson's bona fides. They are upset with the ham-handed elitist way he's using them. The problem for most of us, partisan and non-partisan alike, is with PM Harper and the discontinuity between what he said he believed and what he's now apparently intent on doing. Perhaps you're looking at the wrong brain for a potential MRI target.

Third. If you think Norman Spector and his jaundiced view of the electorate and how easily they can be manipulated and played for fools is a clever way to make your point it’s a poor example. He's been playing pointless and childish intellectual games ever since he left Montreal and came to work for Bill Bennett in Victoria. As an avatar of non-partisanship he has about as much credibility as Monte Solberg does as an environmentalist. If you're going to try to sustain an argument at least pick your allies well. Why not check out some of Norman's other essays, on the CBC, for example, before you decide he's such a paragon.

Let's all try to be nice! Give me a break, you're not talking to five year olds.

Okay, so then I won't comment on your spelling. I've stated facts: namely that Emerson's crossing is unique in the political history of this country because no one prior to him has crossed without first sitting in the house to get a sense of the party he or she'd be crossing to. Are we agreed on this fact? Yes or no.

"Let's all try to be nice, and wait and see."

Meaning, let's wait, nicely, and see what they actually do. Then react. That isn't anything like saying blindly trust your leaders.

I think it is just bad form, and a sign of the decay in civil society, that our political conversations are seen as an invitation for any and all kinds of personal attacks.

I doubt it would be easy or accurate to conflate "everything that has been written here" one way or another. My point is that Partisan prejudice in Canada and British Columbia is virulent and contributes to the undermining of our democratic culture. This thread of messages is a fine example, with one calumny heaped upon another, both at politicians and other posters (such as myself -- If I couldn't take it I wouldn't be here)

You (G West) are not claiming that there have been no partisan attitudes displayed here, or that partisan politics similar to those discussed in the NYTimes are abscent in the great white north, are you?

My point is directed at the Sturm und Drang surrounding the issue of MPs walking the floor. This practice is old and vererable, and the hysterical outrage put out by some is put there in service of one political party or another, not the public good.

Norman Spector, like a stopped clock, is correct a few times a day (or less). The truth doesn't need allies, and my objective case was qualified by my disinterest in the man and his new party.

Sometimes it is helpful to return to the basic lessons we all learned at five years old.

Donn, I was deeply involved with the Council of Canadians in the 1980's Free Trade Debate. At that time, we said "The future of Canada is on the Table". We really believed that Free Trade would be the sell out that would mean the end of the country. Well, it may or may not have been a sell out, but we still have a country. The very people who defended and negotiated the deal (my opponents in the day -- not that they would have known me) have expressed their disgust at how things have come to pass with the agreement. From experience, I know it is a big mistake to think that the people you disagree with, no matter how passionately, have little horns growing out of their heads, or are otherwise engaged in politics with intentions any less honourable than your own.

There is nothing inconsistent in communicating your concerns (welcome or not) to your sitting MP -- firmly and nicely. I'm a Salt Spring resident also, and our MP's job is to represent us, even if we did not vote for him. So far as I know, (and I might be wrong) he has done his job.

sometimes it is helpful to return to the lessons we learned when we were five years old

hey tcahill !

did you learn to share with all..like i did ?

did you play nice ?

or did you throw sand in someones face ?

did you call them names ?

did you spit at your playmates ?

DID YOU STEAL ALL THEIR TOYS AND KICK THEM OUT OF THE SANDBOX ALLTOGETHER ??? (sort of like big business selling our resources)

get off the pot...if anybody can be cruel...it's kids

so...I LEARNED EVERYTHING I NEED TO KNOW IN THE SANDBOX...may be a good book title and some of what is in that book is relevant to life.

but when it comes to politics...IT IS A DYNAMIC STAGE...EVERCHANGING........

that we as CANADIANS are so pissed off at the MACHINATIONS of the polititians in the last little while...SHOWS WE CARE

it shows ...we want change !

it shows we are not amused and we want those ARROGANT BASTARDS to know we are paying attention.

we are HOT UNDER THE COLLAR and not wanting to cool off...cause we know...thats when politicians have time to SPIN and regroup and do DAMAGE CONTROL...

so...i don't think now is the time to cool off,i think we should be feeding the fire and making sure the people know we mean business.

Actually, "UnderstandMe", there is no greater implication in your postings other than that you are proud of a lack of self control. That's quite harmless and amusing. You've got an interesting kind of 'One Person Mob' thing going on.

It is also interesting that you refer to yourself as "we ... Canadians". That's very Queen Victorian of you. "We are not amused" ... "we mean business". The people should be notified.

So if this forum is your scream therapy, how unfortunate for us, but at least we won't get anything on ourselves. Go ahead, get it out of your system. You'll feel better. However, I hope you don't mind if I confine my responses henceforth to more substansive posts? Feel better, OK.

tcahill

I think, under the circumstances, that waiting nicely is precisely what Mr. Harper would like us to do. He's deadly serious about his program of changing this country into a right wing fundamentalist state and so are many of the people who follow him – if you don’t believe me go and look at their websites – Monte Solberg’s is an excellent place to start! Just for interest, you should also go to Garth Turner's website and see what a good many of his fellow conservatives have been saying about him since he stood up on his hind legs and expressed some mild disagreement with Mr. Harper's Emerson gambit.

Mr. Harper is not going to be able to make the changes he is so convinced are right for all of his fellow citizens without winning a majority government and I think he's trying to find a way to ensure he does that next time.

I think there are plenty of people who've been making the case against turning opposition to what Mr. Harper is up to into a partisan exercise. I don't know if you've taken the time to read these posts but I think you should. As for partisanship, if you want to find that, as I said, just let me know and I'll send you to places where you can find a bushel of it. But don’t expect to go to those sites and post a contra opinion – you won’t last long.

Norman Spector's conclusions about anything, whether it's his putative advice to Davie Emerson or his sage musings about the nature of political control over the civil service, require more than a few doses of salt. In fact, I'm never sure Mr. Spector actually believes in democracy anymore - I think he'd much rather the government hired him to make many of the tough decisions. Moreover, that’s another thing that frightens me – Harper may very well do that too.

hey tcahill

few on these pages are lucky enough to live on a wealthy playground island...suffer from GOUT(a rich lazy mans disease) and have the time to whittle away their time...BEING A DILLETTANTE...

SCREAM THERAPY...really now...how behind the times are you....

as for not replying...that's typical 5 year old behaviour...along with...i don't like you,
which is apparent in your post...

like i said...you are one of those that NEVER learned how to play in the sandbox...UNLESS YOU WERE ALONE !

when you opine that we should take your counsel have the balls to take CRITISISM...

now go in the corner and take a time out mister
and don't sulk !

Thought I'd throw in a Saskatchewan point of view.

My MP is Carol, Minister of National Revenue & Minister of WED, Skelton.

When Stronach crossed the floor Skelton said she was "sick to her stomach" and introduced a parlimentary motion to restrict the practice of party-switching. Last week she said "That was last year." She has stated that she won't be bringing back that motion in the near future. Hypocritical?

I have never voted for this woman but she has "represented" me for the majority of the time I've lived here. The problem is that she doesn't REPRESENT (not meant as yelling) me in the least.

I'll show my true colours here and say that I want Jack Layton to be able to stick an NDP MP into Saskatchewan because there are many of us living in this province not represented by our party of choice. Hee, hee.

I tend not to post very often but am addicted to reading the Tyee, is there a support group to help me quit?

G West: While I don't presume to see into the mind of Mr. Harper, it is fair and fascinating to ponder what ticks in there. As for his fundamentalist program, well, Jimmy Carter and George Bush II are both evangelical christians, but Carter didn't try to impose his beliefs on his country. The fact that Mr. harper is a conservative evangelist does not in itself make him a fundamentalist. A fundamentalist is a zealous fanatic. I've never met a Christian Fundamentalist who made any kind of secret about it: zealotry is by definition not subtle or self-effacing. it will be interesting to see how Mr. Harper accomodates followers such as Monte Solberg. Do you have a choice link or two to bring me up to speed?

As you say, Mr. Harper's legislative options are hamstrung by his minority standing, so we won't really get a taste of his true lawmaking agenda. Patience and timing are of the essence in that arena. His executive perogatives are not nearly so encumbered, and it will be in his appointments and policy shifts that some hints of his intended direction may be inferred. In that context, we have no choice but to wait and see. The executive (extra-parliamentary) powers of a Canadian Prime Minister are something an American president can only dream of.

Regarding the non-partisan posts you mentioned, I'd love to peruse them. As far as the partisan exchanges -- I'll pass.

I remember Norman Spector from back in the days of Bill 19 (early-mid 1980s) and considered him a nemesis then. Those days were long ago. Since then I have heard him making sense on occasion.

No we don't. Its foreign-owned.

Frank:

I'm not aware of a time when it wasn't foreign-owned. Well, not since the white man came.

That's the great thing about selling the country to Foreigners: they can't take it with them. It's still here. And Foreigners can't vote. Invaders, well that would be different.

So far, from what I`ve read and listened to, I`ve come to the conclusion that the ones who are most incensed with this whole thing are the far right (old reformers) and far left. No?

hey tcahill !

sorry i couldn't reply faster...i have been laughing so hard...i peed my pants(had 2 change)

that you think Norm Spector actually makes sense...proves, you are, indeed, a DILLETANTE trying to wax eloquent in the political arena...

i can see that your performance with the council of canadians concerning FREE TRADE is one of the reasons we are getting screwed over by people like HARPER/EMERSON et al...

Gutys, where is Ronnie E ???????

UNDERSTANDME: I dub thee "TROLL".

http://www.understandme.org/

hey tcahill !

yer jes a little late thr dude ...

but i truly APPRECIATE the insult...

grw a little read for you from the Ethics Commissioners site.

Since voters can now vote for a party as well as a candidate, are their interests affected when a successful candidate refused to represent the party for which he or she was elected? Is a candidate bound by the policies of the party he or she represents? Do voters have a claim to "Truth in Advertising"? Prior to 1974, a candidate was officially an "independent", and a significant part of any election campaign was to fix the memory of party affiliation in the electorate's mind. The 1974 amendment has relieved campaigns of that burden; can it be assumed to go farther in binding a candidate's right to switch to a different party allegiance?

When Liberal M.P. Perry Ryan switched to the Conservatives while continuing to sit for Toronto-Spadina, one of the strongest Liberal seats in Ontario at the time, much partisan and editorial opinion insisted that his duty was not to switch but to resign, testing his new allegiance in a by-election. Toronto's more Conservative press recognized the issue but worried that the cost of a by-election was a sufficient deterrent. Mr. Ryan's fate was, of course, deferred until the ensuing general election. The issue recurs since partisans deplore defection as much as other partisans welcome a positive conversion.

hey tcahill !

making fun of disabled kids !

man you really are some kind of weasel !!!!!

In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who posts rude or offensive messages on the Internet, such as on online discussion forums, to disrupt discussion or to upset its participants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

"Do not feed the trolls".

Its like rentiung a house. Sure, the owners can't take it with them on holidays but why would they want to?

Many Cdns don't see a problem that so many of our major corporations, services and strategic resources such as oil are foreign-owned. They figure as long as we get jobs out of it, great. Just as many would have no problem if one person owned all the housing, as long as he's willing to rent to us, great.

Yet other countries consider it bordering on a national emergency if the percentage of foreign ownership of their key industries or the economy as a whole rises to even a fraction of what Canada's is.

The Mulroney dismantling of FIRA and the enactment of the FTA set this country back. That's why people are not getting ahead, why wages and salaries have stagnated in spite of low interest rates, lower corporate taxes, lower income taxes and the rise of sales taxes.

Because the wealth of the country, the profit from our resources and labour is repatriated back to the countries that own us.

hey tcahill !

and making fun of DISABLED KIDS !!!

WHAT'S THAT MAKE YOU ???

HEAD TROLL??? KING TROLL??? WHAT???

tcahill

http://www.montesolberg.com/blog.htm
You need to go back through his archives - at least till election day and then read everything he's written since/ By the way, says on his site he's just too busy to blog any longer now that he's going to be looking after our public safety/ that's rich!

The Garth Turner website is here:
http://www.garth.ca/

Don't just read the congratulations either.

Let me know if you want more.

and foreigners can't vote...says tcahill

well i guess he hasn't heard of DUAL CITIZENSHIP...and the fact many americans live up here long enough to VOTE...

In Kelowna here this week there was a group of TEXANS that came to BIG WHITE for a ski trip.
this was touted by the TOURISM BOARD as good for the economy(no doubt) and that a lot of the TEXANS would be BUYING LARGE PARCELS OF PROPERTY...stimulating the economy further

like the last batch of AMERICANS they had last year...THEY BOUGHT LAND...BIGTIME

HARPER et al...is just gonna make things EASIER

tcahill
And if you're looking for a nice conservative partisan website - how about this one - try posting some free thinking here and see what happens:

http://www.proudtobecanadian.ca/blog/

Thanks G West. I'll review. (Ah, homework) I think the really scary appointment the other day was Stockwell (nee, Doris) Day being put in charge of implementing Canada's Police State. He "will be responsible for counterterrorism, border security and disaster management, overseeing entities such as the RCMP and CSIS". http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=b63eff34-fd0c-46fe-8650-18940a2f6dd0&k=74378
Luckily, he isn't incredibly competent, so the worst we wind up with might be a Keystone Cops State.

http://www.proudtobecanadian.ca/blog/

"Welcome! 77 visitors landed here within past 10 minutes, and are now reading conservative thoughts and ideas as they leak out into society unchecked by liberals."

Leak out? Do they realize how disgusting that sounds? Let's hope they stay on message...

Canada's own version of FOX news?

dj2

IF you're still here, what the hell happened to Saskatchewan anyway? The last time I was back to the rural part of the province I was born in, it came across as the home of an angry bunch of resentful bigots. I found all you had to do was sit quietly in the corner of the local coffee shop for an hour and be amazed at the prejudice that seeped out of almost every conversation within earshot. Prejudice against Quebecers, against the Chinese, against refugees, against the wheat board - you name it. At the time, last summer, they also seemed convinced that Saskatchewan Roughriders were unsuccessful just then because they had too many black players on their roster.
What happened, that's not the place I remember when I grew up there in the 60s? I know I'm off subject but if you're still here I'd like to hear your thoughts - or anyone else's for that matter!

tcahill
scratch a little deeper dude - you'll be amazed how open minded those people(?) are!

My great grandfather was an old Wobblie -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobblie -- and an original CCF'er out of Caddillac, Saskatchewan. He used to say that when the CCF ( transformed into the NDP in the early 1960s ) got respectable enough to have a chance at real Federal power, it would be because they had sold out, and they wouldn't be worth voting for any more. If he were still alive, I think he would still be voting for them.

Perhaps all of the Saskatchewan socialists left to find work?

This is way off topic too, just thought it was worth a laugh - you have to watch an ad to see it all -

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/02/15/duel/

Well, as long as we're going off topic....

http://www.kottke.org/02/11/hus-on-first

That describes me. Five plus years of Conservative gov't under Grant Devine and ministers like Colin Thatcher driving the provincial economy into the ground was enough. One of us had to go. Which was too bad, I used to love Saskatchewan. Only been back twice since and I too detect a very different feel to the place. For one, the anti-native racism is more blatant.

As someone else suggested, Ron E. is now UNDERSTANDME. He figures if he gives a different look to his inanae ramblings, people won't catch on.

And Woody, I get it, I get it. If you've read any of my posts, you'll see I'm not one of those who is against floor crossers. Never have been. What I've been saying, if you take the time to actually read the words, is that this particular floor crossing is different because it happened before the House even sat and immediately after a two-month election where he fought against a Conservative candidate. Do you not see how this is different? Answer that question, please.

If this had happened six months or a year in the future, you wouldn't be hearing a peep out of me (although I expect others would still have their problems with it).

Am I typing too fast? Should I slow down for you?

Frank
You're right about the racist attitudes towards First Nations folk - but, interestingly enough I found less of that in the rural parts (to which I alluded above) than I did in the cities - Regina and Saskatoon specifically. In fairness I quite liked what S/toon has become - although I couldn't get used to cyclists on the sidewalks where I was trying to run - it was disconcerting - and dangerous - constantly coming up behind with no warning.

grw (question). Do you not see how this is different? Answer that question, please.
(answer)none-what-so- ever.
(question)Am I typing too fast? Should I slow down for you
(answer)yes please-- I stutter.

Progressive Conservative leader Brian Mulroney announced today that the new ambassador to the United States will be his former finance minister Michael Wilson.

Wilson is well known in American political and financial circles, largely because he helped negotiate the Canada-U.S. free trade agreement.

Wilson is best known as the federal finance minister who introduced the much-maligned Goods and Services Tax in 1990.

Other members of Mr. Mulroney's inner circle include senators Hugh Segal and Marjory LeBreton who both worked on the campaign.

Mulroney will be directing Stephen Harper to make the official announcement by the end of the week.

geeze...go out for a beer and you INTELLECTUAL GIANTS from the flatlands kill off the thread
talking bout how bigoted people are nowadays back there...WOW THAT'S RIVETING...

tcahill using a disabled childrens site for a joke...SHOWS ...YOU CAN'T LEAVE THE BIGOTRY BEHIND...just polish the rough edges and use BIG WORDS...maybe you can fool the rubes tcahil
but there are too many bright people reading your posts to fool...

grw...if you can't do a simple IP check to verify who a person is...don't accuse someone of being someone else...shows what a real moron you are.
every posting can be reverse checked...how do you think the TYEE can curtail the LIBELOUS IDIOTS...

people like being informed and entertained when they have a conversation...not being forthright and honest...loses their interest fast...being long winded and intellectually superior...WELL I GUESS THOSE PEOPLE NEED ONLY GO BACK TO THEIR POSTS...then again you probably print them out to keep reminding you of how clever you are...

ciao

bulltoss

what a reminder!

the more things change...the more they stay the same...

UNDERSTANDME

Nice, thought I'd drop in one more tiny distraction - http://www.jesusandmo.net/

And an interesting poll, apropos of what we've been discussing here - food for thought:
http://www.robbinssceresearch.com/polls/poll_227.html

So who did the tv cameras catch dropping into Dave's house for a little private chat - none other than Jack Poole. My, my, Jack's been rather shy lately as the Olympic odor reaches new heights of stench.

This exclusive, little circle of insiders must be desperate to keep their key link, 'Agent Emerson' in place to carry out their 'Games' plan. This group have played together for a lo-o-ng time: linkages well oiled into the Campbell Govt. Now what are they going to do?

Hmmmmm . . . . Mr. Furlong, you best return home from Torino: "While the cat's away, the mice will play". You were looking a little pale and not very jolly in Torino. Could it be that Mr. Emerson is going to leapfrog once again onto your lilly pad? Just a thought.

ursus
I never said I voted for the Cons!!!! They won and I was willing to let that go without coming undone because I wanted to believe that they would at least make the government more accountable and transparent considering that was their moral bar they raised so high that I thought they would be insane to not try live up to it. The only accountable thing that has become apparent is they are insane. I could only give that much because they had a minority government. If they had a majority.... I can't say how I would have reacted!!! But I am not going to let the appointments of Emerson or Fortier go without a major fight!

tcahill

We cannot wait and see what will transpire any longer. We have to change the way our government is elected. We need to take a pickaxe to it until it is no longer recognizable and then rebuild it. And just because foreign owners haven't actually removed the land from our country does not mean that we should allow unlimited foreign ownership. When you own nothing you have no say over how it is managed. This is precisely why we have no control over our elected MPs or the PM. We are trying to make a deal with corporate USA/Canada instead of directing our elected public SERVANTS.

UNDERSTANDME shouted:

No, I can't do a simple IP check. Teach me how. Could it be that you just have two computers, Ron... er, I mean UNDERSTANDME.

hey grw, you say "But the voters change parties all the time. " yes voters select the party based on what the leader of the day and their local wannabe is telling them they are going to do, emerson has no honour nor does harper.

Emerson used the resources and energy of the people of what was supposed to be his party so he could get elected then walk across the floor to the conservatives which is one hell of a breach of promise.

The people who donated their time and money to his campaign should be repaid and the weasel should have to run in a by election as a conservative!

The man has no honour, he is no better then a street hooker in fact comparing him to a street hooker is an insult to the hooker in my opinion!

Ursus
I always thought the Johns were more to blame than the street hookers if you want to pursue that analogy. Look at the poll cited above and you'll see that it seems most of the respondents still think it's appropriate to blame the hookers though. GO figure.

DOWN WITH THE CORPORATE ELITE!!
DOWN WITH THE RULING CLASS!!

steven harper came to town do-da, do-da
a lying, right-wing, bcuk-tooth clown
oh-de-do-da-day
he said he would do this,
he said he would do that,
your fault you listened stupid jerks
ode-to-stockwell-day!!

Oh, that's lovely jesterjogger. What's the tune?

We cannot wait and see what will transpire any longer. We have to change the way our government is elected. We need to take a pickaxe to it until it is no longer recognizable and then rebuild it.

Another Queen Victoria in our midst. Which we are you referring to? Tell me you're not advocating that "we" do a Somalia (total governmental meltdown) on ourselves in the hopes that we can build something better on the smoldering ruins. Talk like that just drives the simple folk into the arms of the Law and Order crowd, and gives Mr. Day the excuse he needs to invoke the notwithstanding clause or Emergencies Act.

Well, my Neighbour owns his house, so that's a small overlooked part of the country that the foreigners don't own yet. There is a big space between unlimited (which doesn't exist in Canada) foreign ownership and total foreign ownership. "Canada has one of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development's most restrictive foreign ownership policies, particularly in telecommunications, publishing, broadcasting, aviation, mining, and fishing." (here's a link you'll love: http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Canada )

Perhaps you'd feel better if you knew that Canadians own about $360 trillion in foreign assets. http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/cip-pic/IPS/IPS-Diplomacy8-en.asp

Hmm... I'd think that in a functioning democracy we wouldn't want anyone to have control over our elected MPs. Supremacy of Parliament and all that.

There are two disconnects going on.

One is the disconnect between our National values and expectations and the actions of our elected leaders. We are all well aware of that disconnect.

The other disconnect is between our National values and expectations and the day to day applied practice of governing a nation. That is not to say we need to just suck up every misdeed committed in our names. What is does say I'll elaborate on after a quick refreshment.

Anyone watching Lorne Caverts recent trip to the U.S. lately? It's not coincidental with Harpers minority government, where Lorne is pretty much telling the U.S. to come on in and invest in oil development and uranium. Saskatchewan is another province that has been treated unfairly by the Central powers of Ottawa in terms of federal tranfers, and this only flames redneck sarcasm that ends up becoming an ideological way of life.

Since I grew up there, I can tell those from Sask that rural Sask hasn't changed much. Rural Canadians were never high on getting rid of the Crow rate subsidy and the wheat boards control of who farmers can market grain to. On this note, there aren't many farmers (at least smart ones) who are high on getting rid of the wheat board all together either, as their checks have always been good and some of them have been substantial over the years. Farmers just want the monopoly the wheatboard has with controlling who the farmer can sell to, which is only the wheatboard for all grains. The wheatboard is a monopoly that shouldn't be sold or privatize as the Cons suggest, but should open farmers to other alternative markets.

What this suggests, is what I've suggested the role of crown corporations should be. "Set a par rate for consumers and producers alike, without becoming a monopoly." Often, crown corporations tend to become monopolies which, I think is not a good thing, but the alternatives, such as where consumer pricing would be in say insurance, especially foreign insurance corporations, would be a nightmare for consumers who have to pay for these services as they too, can become monopolies.

Crown corporations also have their place in bad times. Its called employment.

And the same goes with their roles in stablizing commodity values or service values, like the commodity value of grain being stablized so that there are no major bottoms or even spikes with commodities that could some day be considered as essential. As much as righties and Conservative minded individuals want to privatize everything, and compete, "compete", the reality is that we not compete directly with certain competition coming the U.S. (free trade should never be confused with "fair" trade) in this continent, especially with certain market sectors.

A prime example of this is with banks and insurance. As long as Canadians have full control of these institutions, as well as a stronger centralized federal goverment, Canadians are protected from a complete U.S. takeover. Even though our resources are majority U.S. bought and developed, Canadians do the same thing in other countries world wide. Its true! But what needs to be protected in this country is our banking institutions, insurance, and Federal central powers. This, by the way, is what the Conservatives want to get rid of!!!

Are the Conservatives U.S. sellouts? Harper sure is... and his banking appointments scare me in the long run, because his vision is to get rid of bank protection in this country and if Harper is successful in doing this, we'll see U.S. banks buying out Canadian banks and then its over. This country might fly a red and white maple leaf flag, but this country will no longer be Canadian.

These issues were addressed, by the way, in the 1988 election and the Conservatives wanted then, to get rid of Canadian protection of banks and insurance. Are Canadians really so stupid as to think anything has changed now?

Well, it seems we now have two of Canada's most respected historians weighing in on the subject of Mr. Emerson. Essentially, they are saying there is no precedence in Canadian history for this type of back flip.

Blair Neatby says:

Norman Hillmer says:

Blair Neatby further:

Source: Vancouver Sun Feb.15, 2006
Author: Richard Foot - CanWest News Service

I would agree with their assessment, it is still a hot topic on the "street." Folks seem to know in their heart that this is and was the wrong move by Harper. There is a resentment building up that will likely cost Harper his dream of a majority government. It strikes at the very heart of the Canadian sense of relative fair play.

Canadians and voters could have accepted a down the road switch on an issue of conscience with some initial uproar. At issue now is the integity of the man elected and not just Emerson but Harper as well.

This issue has moved beyond partisanship and from I have been seeing, hearing and reading crosses all parties to one extent or another.

Because the wealth of the country, the profit from our resources and labour is repatriated back to the countries that own us." Frank.

Sorry I missed at least this part of the conversation, for outside of the more esoteric and idealized seeming, if no less important issue of pride in the independence of one's nation, and the opportunities when that is unfettered and uncompromised by foreign control and ownership, to shape and put one's own peoples democratic and social content into one's national community, even in straight forward economic, incomes and standard of living terms, Frank gets the key point of it.

That being, foreign exploitation of our great natural wealth and economic assets may indeed bring "some" jobs with it, related to digging stuff out of the ground and cutting and sawing trees etc. (Though increasingly even the whole trees slide by my place, bound south on the super long trains, while sawmill workers are being laid off.) As well, elements of our ruling class who are prepared to content themselve with a junior partner role with the foreign "economic occupier" will secure some "wealth benefit", no doubt. (Though in all this I am at the same time reminded of the comments that Fait Lux makes all the time about the contradictoriness of our notions of "wealth creation".)

Enough does have to be paid out to keep ones mark standing still for the con, of course.

But the key "economic thing" that happens of course, outside the drawing down of our natural resource or "wealth" base if you will, and the essential reason the foreign economic occupier/owner is here in the first place of course, is for the opportunity to repatriate that wealth "home" into his own pocket, in the form of money profit in addition to materiale to feed the industrial heart of his own national economy interests, and preserve his own resources as a side benefit. And I understand that the myth remains by which we seek to hide this essental reality from ourselves, and to justify our own "greater" national interest betrayal here-, being that perversely, the foreign owner brings in wealth and jobs.

Conveniently forgotten or simply not seen in the slight of hand that goes on in "the deal", of course, outside of the scrutiny of the unwashed public's eye, is that this is not really the object of the game at all. When was it ever the object of an astute businessman to benefit anyone in an "economic exchange" a greater amount than he is benefitted himself? No, good people of the nation, the object of the exercise that daily goes on in the foreign ownership and control soft shoe shuffle is, in the end, under the table, over the table, through loan repatriations, payments for management, research and experise services, and the various other kinds of cash and goods transfers that go on between a foreign branch plant economy and the foreign ownership headquarters, that there should be a greater economic benefit accrue to the foreign economic "plantation" owner, if you will. Charity is not the name of the game, though they may attempt to convince you of something akin to that, naive citizen. (Really, at heart, they are near all used car salesman, selling you that car driven only by a little old lady, who only ever drove it to church on Sunday and home again.)

Continued next post...

From previous post...

This is fundamentally why, in a quasi-colonial, foreign owned, resource export dependant economy, there is such a driven imperative to ever, unending, expand those exports, in order to just stand still economically and pay the bills, in terms of the national standard of living-, whilst paying for the "added value" foreign manufactured products which eventually return at least part of our own resources back to us, so to speak, as automobiles, tvs, computers, etc. etc.

The net effect at the end of the day, however, is depletion, like the man/woman who has inherited a house full of valuable possessions. As the pieces are sold off, there is a certain inflow of cash, no doubt-, until the depletion becomes obvious, of course, and one has to go out and get a real job.

And if one assumes even that there is a certain short term survival benefit from the "dependant" relationship, the loss of strategic control is almost always immediately apparent-, and there sure is a day out there somewhere, if not to us then our future generations, where it all comes crashing down and suddenly, if not catastophically obvious.

And makes hollow, for sure, the words "Canada, true north strong and free.", ehh?

Free, my ass.

g west

come on man that jesus and mo crap is as RIGHTEOUS and RACIST as a WHITEBOY can get !

then again you were throwing stones with tcahil and dj2 about the bigotry and racism back in your home province...

that tcahail cannot recognize camptown races as the tune behind jesterjoggers post is indicative of his knowledge base...seems tcahill can only bring those things which burecrats bring to tyhe table...THE HURRY UP AND LETS SEE!!! mentality...sure builds the populace a strong country paying bankers to watch your money help the rich...

reading all posts on this site and every site i go to concerning HARPER /EMERSON ,et al shows the same apologists ...touting the same vacuous wait and see attitude...

that these people then use POLLS to play with the numbers is a methodology used by psuedo intellectuals to explain to the little people...look at the numbers...NUMBERS DON'T LIE...yeah sure ! and i kin juggle three volkswagans...

that these people use racism and disabled kids as jokes shows their true intellectual standard...that of the religious right wing toady...

From Salon this morning. Perhaps we can 'look forward' to some strict constructionists on the Supreme Court of Canada in the not too distant future:

The last time a vice presidential hunting trip made the headlines, Antonin Scalia was along for the ride. The associate justice is back in the news today -- not for firing a gun at a buddy but for shooting off the weapon that sits between his nose and his chin.

In a speech in Puerto Rico sponsored by the Federalist Society, Scalia blasted away Monday at those who believe that the meaning of the Constitution evolves over time. "That's the argument of flexibility, " Scalia said, "and it goes something like this: 'The Constitution is over 200 years old and societies change. It has to change with society, like a living organism, or it will become brittle and break.' But you would have to be an idiot to believe that."

Among the "idiot" class, it would seem, are Justices Anthony Kennedy, John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer, who joined in the 2003 Lawrence v. Texas opinion that invalidated a Texas statute that criminalized consensual sex between gay men. That opinion relied, at least in part, on what Kennedy called "an emerging awareness" in law and society that liberty gives "substantial protection" to the ways in which adults conduct their private sexual lives.

"Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific," Kennedy wrote for his colleagues in Lawrence. "They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom."

Scalia filed a long dissent in Lawrence, arguing that "homosexual sodomy" wasn't a fundamental right when the Constitution was written and therefore can't be a fundamental right today. The majority's decision, he said, was nothing other than "the product of a court, which is the product of a law-profession culture, that has largely signed on to the so-called homosexual agenda."

Or, as Scalia himself once said, "Quack, quack."

My above is "off topic" from Emerson per se, of course, but all this schit is related in my view: Breaking right wing, foreign serving control of the nation. At the end of the day, Emerson going over to the Conservatives puts him as much in that camp, even more obviously so than the Liberals. (Remember when the Liberals were going to undo NAFTA and the GST? But no, they merely used the Cons to do the dirty work for them. Which is the Liberal tradition Emerson comes out of, in my view.)

UNDERSTANDME

seemed kind of like equal opportunity offence to me - important to remember nobody's beyond ridicule when they act like an idiot...and there are plenty of folks acting like idoits on both sides of that question. [Christians, Muslims, Jews and the press]

As to polls, agree completely, that one (above)was just published yesterday and I thought it might be interesting for people to see it.

CHeers, busy today - I'll leave the care and feeding of the post to you!

sorry, should be 'idiots' in line 3 above

Coyote:

Well put. I'm a protectionist myself. We don't need our southern empires "version of wealth". For as much as I like Intel and AMD chips in my computer, my reliance on them keeps us from developing our own, and the examples are endless.

Nevertheless, globalization is for real. International trade laws and international trade itself, has developed what we have today, and although consumption is sometimes very ugly, wasteful and unwise, and its brokers of power are ruthless, greedy and short sighted, its what we humans do regardless.

And, while arguements can be made against U.S. exploitation of resources, human or otherwise, this "trade" does develop nations that would have nothing without an economy in place. The key question is, "who benefits?" Do Canadians benefit from trade with the U.S. in the way they trade with us? We aren't a third world nation! But it sure is the way we are internationally percieved, considering how often we bend over for U.S. domination of our resources.

Its a known fact that the U.S. owns the majority of the resources here in Canada, and while we argue that we own resources elsewhere in the world and don't want restrictions on this trade abroad, that we would like to put restrictions on foreign ownership of us, particularly U.S. ownership of our vaste resources. FOR A GOOD REASON!

We don't need to rape resources elsewhere like we do in the world, like the USA does with us, we have our own! But as far as protectionism goes in areas of trade: banks, insurance, media and centralized federal powers should not be up for grabs, to name a few. Thats just the way it is, and when I hear Cons talk about doing away with our Canadian protection of these institutions, or erode them slowly, I see this country's own identity under a great threat, and its not hard to see where its coming from. Needless to say, I don't think much of traitors like Harper or Emerson or anyone else who would sell out to the U.S. to make a buck like Mulroney did.

Coming back to the original theme of my message here: all of the upset and condemnation of those who cross the floor is just the outrage of Partisan Party Politics. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." We've been conditioned to be upset when anybody challenges the artificial divisions that masquerade as party platforms.
The Parliament, not the PM, and not any or all political parities, is supreme in Canada, yet it is composed of individuals who, for the most part, play along with the theater of Party Unity.
Whenever somebody has the Gaul to act on their own, and tries to dance to their own tune, they get drowned out by that old classic... "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to". Don't believe it.
The difference between Stronach and Emerson is spelling, gender, age, timing and direction. Everything else is just Stuff. (Stuff can be pretty interesting, but isn't worth getting upset over) I just hope we see more of the same. It subverts the dominance of the parties and keeps everybody on their toes.

I wonder how the new ambassador to the US, Michael Wilson, would respond to your post Brain. This ain't just a threat it's a lead-pipe certainty.

seemed like an equal opportunity offence to me-important to remember nobody's(sic) beyond ridicule when they act like an idiot...

seems that statement made by g west fits the situation of harper/emerson et al ! and it's a statement i live by as well...when i am an A$$HOLE...I EXPECT PEOPLE TO SAY...HEY BOY!

but that is not the case with HARPER/EMERSON et al...these are people who are in CARE of our country and their STANDARDS should be set higher than ours...tcahil states i use Victorian Rhetoric when speaking of the masses...I USE THE ROYAL...WE...as do others...and using the singular I is just to egoistic...I don't run the country...STEVEN HARPER does it for us/we the people...and he can use the singular! OR CAN HE?

can harper say i am going to do this without your CONSENT...i think he can...optics being what they are though...wouldn't he be better off stating...we thought this move would benefit all canadians.

now had EMERSON not had his running shoes on...had STEPHEN HARPER waited a week to finalize the AGREEMENT with EMERSON...i don't think we would all be pissed off.

SO MANY POSTS THAT I HAVE READ HAVE STATED THE SAME SENTIMENTS...SOME MORE ELOQUENT...SOME MORE DIRECT.

that we were expecting STEPHEN HARPER to be a breath of fresh air...and then getting the stink of SAME OLD...SAME OLD...really got the juices flowing...and adrenalin is one of those juices that cannot be turned off as readily as one might expect...

so in the heat of battle we the people just might not be able to see straight and there are going to be a lot of casualties...because as you can see HARPER is not as EXPERIENCED as his handlers/spinmeisters want us to beleive.

so as long as HARPER et al lets this boil on the backburner...the bigger the mess is going to be

I'm with you, man, no agin you! I've said Emerson was wrong, wrong, wrong to do what he did -- but only because of when he did it. There is no precedent for someone campaigning hard and partisanly (if that's a word) for two months against a Conservative candidate and party, then turn around after he's defeated that Conservative candidate handily and joining his party. None whatsoever. And he deserves scorn and protests and righteous indignation. But there's nothing wrong with crossing the floor later once he's seen how his party is acting in opposition and how the government is acting. Then at least it's a slightly more informed decision and time has passed -- and maybe his constituents' opinions.

I think it would take longer than that, understandme. Had he waited six months, then I agree. He has to have a suitable amount of time to see the government in action and how they perform. Otherwise how does he even know he can work with them.

Hey! Maybe Emerson's a mole! Maybe he's doing it to help the Libs. After a few months, he'll quit and say, "I can't work with these people. They are incompetent." And then the Libs will say, "We told you so!"

Working Man said:

Funny, that's just how Working Man and other right-leaning people also behave; like their version of the truth is the only truth; even though it's wrong. "Righties even invoke God in the name of being Holier than Everybody Else".

Oddly, by the way, that's against one of the Ten Commandments - "taking the name in vain", i.e. flying God's flag to justify your own agenda.

The Left may have their blinkers on; the right, on the other hand, have blinders.

Ohhh, I think I understand how human economic activity works, quite well, including global "trade". Which is not what I was especially talking about here. But being as you have raised it, though I think, (assuming that Canada along with the nations of Latin America, and even the Middle East secure and shore upn the national economic and political indpendance), once the "capitalist" structured and controlled "trade market in goods and labour", much of which is really a search for sources of cheap labour and "dependant" markets, and playing one off against another, is well and truly dealt with and brought under the democratic control of a "community of independant" as opposed to "dependant" nations and states, some yet undetermined levels of international material and goods trade will certainly still go on, no doubt.

At the same time that global environmental realities are dealt with, and sooner or later they will have to be, along with issues of resource and environmental depletion and sustainability, it is clear that once the corporatist "private profit pursuit" and "market manipulation" issues are tamed and put in more practical and realistic place, that overall planet population reduction issues are going to have to be faced up to as well, and with that, with added emphasis on maximized "national self-sufficiency and sustainability" replacing "export" dependancy and emphasis, volumes of trade will assumedly be impacted, and downward in greatest likelihood.

The reality is, the entire world cannot be brought up to the levels of US consumption certainly, without severe implications on virtually every economic and environmental front. Indeed, there is already a crisis (oil). Lifestyle, and consumption changes are going to have to occur-, in all likelihood. (I'm not saying nations like China, Russia and many others are not going to try. Indeed they already are, but the underpinning issue driving that has as much to do with the way US consumption and militarization issues (a) attract and (b) threatens them and their national security, as do plain, outright and simple "economic and liveability good" issues per se.)

So, unlike is your own tendency I think, it is not possible to treat economic and environmental and national and individual "freedom" issues separately, but they must be seen in their inter-related totality together. We simply must re-secure control over our own nation so that we can control heretofore self-destructive capitalist assumptions and practices that leads to both economic and "export" trade dependancy, and the job losses attached to that for our people (seldom mentioned), and accelerated environmental, including resource degradation. Nor are we entirely unique, I think. Sooner or later all peoples are going to have to deal with it, and their realistic "population carrying" capabilties etc., and which capitalism's consumer and production emphasis distorts and exacerbates, not relieves over the long pull of history.

Global trade "realities", so called, have been elevated into a God idol, at which we are all expected to fall and worship unquestioningly. Whereas, like any "belief" in any God, the way forward and out of the current global morass of waste, resource and people exploitation, and the division of the world into haves and have nots, nuclear and non-nuclear, obscene wealth display alongside famine and charity dependancy, and growing destruction of the natural world, period, lies precisely in the direction of ever more questioning of, and putting the real nature of this "God assumption", provided us by capitalism, in its proper place.

Sorry, that last piece was written rather hurriedly, (Had to meet the Mrs. and daughter in town for lunch.) and as a result contains a number of spelling and grammatical erroes to many.

I will give myself a good talking to. :-)

hey grw !

what i was trying to say...IF THEY HAD THOUGHT IT OUT BETTER...and i suggest it should have had a deep think...

agreed, timelimes ARE a big issue with many of us

and the running shoes quip ! well,are we going to see any shoe endorsements for EMERSON in the future ???

Stan M. writes:

Which 'street'? Bay Street doesn't care and St. Catherines is onto other topics now.

To Murdock;
No but they sure seem to care at the local coffee shops, pubs, but then we pretty much know where you stand.

Dunno where to post this - doesn't really belong here I know, but what can you do
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1710360,00.html

Maybe this'll get the attention off dead eye dick!

tcahill

another fair and balanced website for your attention
http://groups.msn.com/CanadaToday3

and a bit more for your consideration - are you sure you want your name and reputation associated with these people?

http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2006/02/interview_with_.html

on the news...CONS...looking at tossing out the the GUN REGISTRY....

good first move i would say...the one that has been on most minds for years...that monetary black hole...hopefuly pay for efforts policing to catch internet predators of children...that area is vastly underfunded

here come the DIVERSIONS...

Understandme:

Not so sure about tossing the registry. We do need gun control in this country, at least, the RCMP does. The liberals greatest mistake was that they ran this program separate from the RCMP, but there are fears that provinces like Alta will let the RCMP contracts expire in 2011 with the arguement being costs and if or when that happens, Alta will have provincial police and be on the way to a U.S. system, or worse, separation. Knowing the connections Ralph Klein has to the NCC, its time for a new government there.

G west:
You've got that right with Michael Wilson's assessment. And if me and Mike had a conversation, it would start out with his lies and my pointing out what he did for a living and then ask how much he's making on the side. Naturally, the hypothetical conversation would deteriorate from there... And those links. There are a lot of nuts out there, and some bloggers are revealing just how nutty people can get.

Coyote: :-)
I do have a habit going off topic, sometimes even on purpose! lol Appreciate your posts, and as Iz (Israel Kamakawiwo) would say, "Keep it real, Brudda".

If you all have the time, check out this link.

http://www.kitco.com/ind/Dorsch/jan312006.html
I've got some stocks in metals at the moment, so I like to stay informed on everything, including where to put these stinky money piles next. Outside of the researchers conclusions, the facts speak for themselves. Growing populations, growing economies, growing consumption, worsening environments and war...

And to top it all off, we are bombarded by information, much of it being false, or otherwise not thought through and as you suggest in your posts, it is about sustainability and there isn't much in the way of co-operation. Its sad that we need a cycle of death to take it all seriously, but that is ultimately where we are headed.

So, as it is off topic, it isn't just about how we die, but how we live. And to think that we need someone, a God or angel, even ourselves to remember us when our time has come, is to be just a bit to proud, missing out on the true treasures of life, and quite frankly, the needed time we should have spent to fight for them.

My time is dwindling here on this site, as, ultimately, we have to ask what more we can do, and the days are getting longer...

Have a good day, all.

commentor: G West posted: some time ago

http://westernstandard.blogs.com/sh...view_with_.html

Excuse you? You're providing me links I'm unfamiliar with and unrelated to, and somehow I'm associated with them? That's some imagination you've got there. You don't suppose you could articulate this supposed link between them and I.

Stan M.

you further opined:

Making the issue a national or 'canadian' one. I say that the rest of canada has mostly looked past the issue, and rightly so.

It is only an issue, and should be one, in Vancouver-Kingsway. Stop pushing your values and interpretations on the rest of us as it has not been an 'issue' in the centers of LiEberal power.

Even Mr. Dithers took a week to finally issue an 'urgent' press release.

The numbers logging into the 'online petition' continue to dwindle and the 'issue' is already yesterdays fish wrapper. Just as I predicted it would be all along.

The Brain, while musing, posted:

this is a major part of the GREEN Party movement worldwide, something Rafe has been fired at about here on the Tyee.

While the Canadian Greens may have some warts, at least they are willing to take part in the movement and many youth (soon to be voters, if not already are) are totally embracing the GREEN movement.

Considering the rather dark nature of the end of your last post, perhaps it is time to look closer at the Green Party as Rafe has suggested elsewhere?

Even if only as a protest against the waste, corruption, poor morals or bad judgement seen in the other parties?

tcahill
Um...As I recall you came to this thread yesterday making the point that the folks here posted opinions and the like that were too partisan. Remember? As I recall, you were also something of an apologist for clever little Davie of recent conservative fame. Familiar?

I disagreed with that point of view and volunteered to provide you with a few examples of real partisanship, ergo the links.

You also said, and I

I'm simply trying to point out that being nice doesn't appear to be part of the vocabulary of a number of people I happen to disagree with - partisan or not. For your own self, if you're ready to decide which side of the fence you're on, great!

Does that about cover it?

"So you support your party of choice when they made bad moves and critisize others right to do the same, bit of a hyprocrit aren't you?"

Sweet Mother of Jesus, you are right. I am ready. And not only will I no longer support those scumbag Cons who have yet to pass a single piece of legislation, but I am going all the way. I am becoming a Socialist.

As I understand it, there are 10 steps for us recovering Capitalists.

1) Take a nap.
2) Mentors. I will need lots of mentors. When I feel weakness, I will need to be able to call someone. Svend is not doing anything, maybe I could give him a ring.
3) I must divest myself of my business. Brother Grumpy will be of particular importance. Who better to ask how to drive a business into the ground.
4) Get a job in which you must show up at 8:00am and leave at 5:00pm each day. If everything goes really well, maybe I could get a Union job. But no way will I join those pond scum CAW.
5) I must stop waking up actually looking forward to the day ahead. Blind hatred must be my guiding light.
6) Here is the one that I am not looking forward to. Having a needle stuck into my head and having half of my brains sucked out. But, I take courage from those who have gone ahead of me. Anyone who posts parallels between Hitler and an elected Canadian politician surely has had this procedure already. Brother Brain, you are an inspiration to me.
7) I must learn to blame Gordo for everything. It is right there in the BC Socialist manual. And I must, repeat, must bring up the Maui DUI at every possible opportunity.
8) I must work hard to divest myself of the attitude that I can help my own situation. Crap. See how easy it is to slip. I am not to work hard at anything anymore. But, I must trust that the Government knows what is best for me and will look after me.
9) Mediocrity is good, mediocrity is good. Repeat at least 10 times every waking hour of every day. For the rest of my life.

I know that there are 10 rules which I must follow, but as an astute Socialist in Training, I know that I should never actually finish anything I start ever again.

Damn you Stephen Harper for luring Emerson over for that all-important 125th seat in the House. It really was a huge thing that was worth setting our hair on fire for.

G West:
It may just be that I'm comming from a direction that you are unfamiliar with, and you have mistaken me for somebody or something else. I don't mind clarifying my position, but I am not going to waste much energy fighting a pronounced tendency to willfully misunderstand what I am at pains to present clearly. If you want to disagree with me, be sure of what you are disagreeing with.

Referring to me as an appologist for Mr Emerson is both an ad hominen attack and a straw man diversion.

Pejorative is the context in which I understand your meaning. Perhaps you meant another context? I don't give a hoot about Mr. Emerson or which side of the floor he's on, but I'll defend to the death his right to cross it. Do you suppose I have some secret cause or agenda? There is a case for his hounorably crossing the floor that is at least as reasonable as the case that he is a traitorous degenerate scoundrel scumbag. Basically, a member of Parliament may cross the floor, unless of course, 4Cryinoutloud has taken a pickaxe to it.

My suggestion that partisan behavior is unhelpful, somehow causes your mind to associate me with extreme partisans. My denunciation of Party politics makes you associate me with party hacks and ideologs? You can associate me with the King of Siam if you want to, but that has nothing to do with me.

juskatladude:

Could you boil those 10 points down a bit more so they could fit on a tee shirt?

The brain

A couple of points,first the gun registry has accomplished squat,other than the good guys no longer have guns and the bad guys have more of them then ever.
. As you so state ,we do need gun control in this country, at least, the RCMP does. Your correct.
Just who is it, that has “ fears” should provinces LIKE (like??) Alberta drop the RCMP.?
How many RCMP were removed from street,patrol etc, duty, and put into gun administration registry duty, in other words a desk job, 100, 200, 400?
What a waste of police resources.

this may seem off topic...BUT

the olympic mogul run today was won by an AUSTRAILIAN (which is cool) who was a CANADIAN youngster (15 yrs old) who had to leave Canada because his technology/software ? company was taking off and the OLYMPIC COMMITTEE said he could not participate here in Canda...SO HE LEFT

now that's the kind of BS that our CANADA is full of....rules that don't work in this day and age...rules that aren't bent for certain situations...anyone care to add their own examples...

now there is no PRECEDENT for what Emerson did,but what he did sets a precedent...the rules are changing...BUT TO SLOW...and not with any input from JACK and JILL PUBLIC...

that we are being kept in a political limbo and helpless in rectifying our system, angers many of us regardless of colour or stripe.

that a fiasco like emersons can be accomadated by the highest authority without any sort of reprimand is really galling...then again there are allowances for that behaviour

SMALL WONDER THAT EVERY EMERSON STORY I READ ON THE INTERNET...IS JAMMED WITH POSTERS VENTING...

tcahill
Nope, don't accept your interpretation.
First of all, you implied, no you actually went further than implying, that this was a partisan website because it appeared to you that everybody was heaping calumny on poor Davie's head for crossing the floor. You said he was an amazingly clever guy who had a lot to offer and that:

Now I don't think you can get much clearer than that. I disagreed with your conclusion on at least two grounds:

1. That there were a number of commentators here (myself included) who had scrupulously avoided partisanship in their analysis; and
2. That this was, for a number of valid reasons, not just another case of a politician crossing the floor for the 'good' of his country.

I then suggested two other things:

1. That you take some time and read all the posts on this subject available here at the Tyee in order to get a better flavour of what was actually being said as well as to see that most of the individuals here were willing to engage in a meaningful debate about these issues, unlike;
2. Many conservative sites, which are, in my opinion, truly and rabidly partisan and, not, under any circumstances, open to reasonable give and take. I suggested I would then undertake to provide you a few examples of the type of thing I was talking about.

Hope we've cleared that up.

As for your inclusion of Wikipedia references, I assure you they are unnecessary. As for Wikipedia itself, forgive me if I prefer a reference source whose editors have a somewhat more conventional set of qualifications. Maybe that's unfair, but I think a reference work where every tom, dick and harry are free to add their own two bits at their leisure and inclination has a tiny bit of a credibility problem.

No hard feelings though.

G WEST

bingo on the wikipedia issue !

unfortunately ...they are usually the first to pop up...covered in tracking cookies at that!

tcahill

Just one last note to you. Thanks for dubbing me with a "royal" we which I will now rule to never include you. And please, pluck those nose hairs would ya?

How to become a right winger.

1. First, you have to stop assuming you're just one guy that doesn't mean much in the overall scheme of things. From now on you'll have to tell yourself that the sun shines out of your ass and everyone else should bow down and worship the greatness that is you.

2. Every morning as you brush your teeth repeat the Levant mantra, "Only I matter, only my issues matter, everyone else is a lazy SOB" and then go back to bed.

3. Demand the police lock up every kid who even thinks about stealing a car. Demand that every shoplifter do 20 years hard time and call the police every time you hear music because someone might be having more fun than you. Oh and complain about the high cost of policing constantly.

4. While your fat ass is lying in emergency because you felt a pain in your chest tell the the nurses they don't work hard enough and that smoking should be allowed inside. Oh, and complain about the high cost of health care constantly.

5. Phone talk shows everyday to remind them that good men like Gordon Campbell are on a bar the rest of us can only aspire to and therefore they shouldn't have to obey laws made by the politically correct like not being able to drive home drunk.

6. Whenever a leftie talks about improving conditions for people on the street get real angry and yell in people's faces that the homeless and the prostitutes provide colour and its the damn left that is turning Vancouver into No Fun City.

7. Remind everyone that there is no better way to spend tax dollars than throwing a 2 week festival for athletes who are paid by the gov't to spend their young lives training for all those great jobs in speed skating.

8. Complain about how big gov't is ruining the country except those few run by your right-wing buddies. You know, the city, the province and the country.

9. Whenever you're unemployed ask one of your gov't buddies to hire you as an ambassador or a committee member or maybe just to join a taxpayer funded think tank. Remember, taxpayer subsidized think tanks like the Fraser Institute and taxpayer funded hockey seats are a boon to the economy whereas free dental care for kids would ruin the country.

10. Remember to hit yourself with a 2 by 4 once a day, its the only way your ideas make sense.

G West:

I'm comfortable with what I wrote.

As for your point #1: I didn't call the web site partisan, but if you insist, I'll call you one.

Your idea of having

is to write

or

or

or

or

You're hardly an impartial analyst. In retrospect, I can see how you'd feel personally stung by my words, which were intended to be quite general.

And as for your point #2, you are just cross that I've put out other valid reasons why this is just another case of a politician crossing the floor.

Then you leave us with another telling glimpse into you're values:

Gee, but that description sounds a lot like ... thetyee.ca and all of these comments. A bit of self-loathing there perhaps?

I think you harbour quite a lot of hard feelings.

Well, Frankly speaking, it always takes a near-Mensa quality mind to come up with such witty, original rebuttals. But I must say that as a new Socialist, I am inspired by your use of the BC Socialist manual to come up with #5. And I am going way out on a limb, but I bet you had to work harder than you have for weeks in order to come up with all 10 "points". Would have been really the pitz to only come up with 7 or 8!!

Hey look, I tossed that post out there because this thread, much like the life altering event that precipitated it, is over. Might as well have a little ha-ha.

Move on there Frank to the Next Big Thing. Come up with something that this Lefties Mutual Admiration Society that you contribute to can get all worked up about again.

woody: Most of your questions are rhetorical (answering themselves) Your post:

"Just who is it, that has “ fears” should provinces LIKE (like??) Alberta drop the RCMP.?
How many RCMP were removed from street,patrol etc, duty, and put into gun administration registry duty, in other words a desk job, 100, 200, 400?
What a waste of police resources."

I for one have fears that Alberta and other provinces drop the RCMP as it paves the way to decentralizing federal powers, and balkanizing the provinces of this country. I have fears that police will act differently from one province to the next without nationwide standards, just as it is in the States. If you've travelled in states off of the beaten path, you would concur.

The RCMP, as unliked at times as it is, has everything integrated, including Federal intelligence and fractioning RCMP duties with each province running its own show would not simply be as "wasteful" or moreso with things like gun control registries, (perhaps absent altogether) it would also be much less efficient in catching federal and international criminals.

The gun control registry was created as a result of Mark Lepines actions in 1995.
As the auditor general states in 2002:

"The issue here is not gun control. And it's not even astronomical cost overruns, although those are serious. What's really inexcusable is that Parliament was in the dark. I question why the [Justice] department continued to watch the costs escalate without informing Parliament and without considering alternatives." — Auditor General Sheila Fraser in her December 2002 report

"After the report, the leader of a group opposed to the registry admitted his members had a small hand in driving up costs by swamping the government office with last-minute applications and bombarding it with bogus questions."

This group was the NCC, and legal challenges have now topped over 181 million with the NCC making up lion share costs associated with the gun registry. Harper was president of the NCC from late 97 to dec. of 2001.

http://www.morefreedom.org/

http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/realitycheck/registry.html

This last website says it best concerning the future of gun registry costs and if the Cons have anything to gain by it, other than the aforementioned decentralization of federal powers. Waste? Yes. And to scap it now, other than for political posturing is to little, too late. And, as wasteful and mismanaged as the gun registry was, a good long look at its future suggests that future waste will not be as extreme as people think.

And, simple food for thought, a 160 million dollar computer fraud from a civil servant and recovery from Compaq could be related to inflated computer costs, although its not yet established.

Well, I guess I'll sign out now, It seems we're just interupting the gun registry debate.

See you under the next headline.

How are those statements partisan? I didn't ask Emerson to cross the floor. I didn't ignore everything I've said I believed in during the whole of my public life the way Harper did. What I actually said about Buzz Hargrove and the NDP was this:

At least do me the credit of quoting me correctly. But that's really partisan isn't it. Give me a break!

I'll stand by my views about Wikipedia and, as for the Tyee, who ever said it was a reference work. Talk about straw men!!
You still haven't dealt with another important point, to wit: that you can have a disagreement here and talk about it without being banned to a black hole the way dissenters are treated on conservative sites more often than not. If you want to go a little deeper in the archives you'll find I've said a lot of other things that were far from complimentary about the NDP which you seem to think I have the hots for.
As I said, no hard feelings. If I misinterpreted what you were implying I'm sorry. I think Harper is more to blame than Emerson, if that makes you feel any better and it appears the majority of respondents in the poll reference I posted here yesterday seems to agree with you and not me. Not that I care. This is a matter of principle and if I was the last person in the country who felt this way it wouldn't matter a damn to me. I think our new Prime Minister is a dangerous phoney - on a completely non-partisan basis.

Frank: To funny, dude. ;-)

woody:
As I have often mentioned in prior posts, there is a Conservative agenda to not only privatize every service in this country, whether its banks, insurance, healthcare, CBC media, and the elimination of unions etc. so that there are no future contracts to break in paving the way for this to happen, it extends to policing this country as well, and this fits well into an empirical takeover without having to roll in one tank.

Anyone who has looked into Harpers rise to power with the Reforms and comfy tenure with the National Citizens Coalition can see it coming. Anyone who been following politics over the last 25 years and had seen what the Conservatives had initially asked for in earlier free trade agreements before they were ratified, should have known what the PC's under Mulroney were after. Even still, banking deregulation was introduced under Mulroney in 1991 that few people know about.

And the media? How out to lunch are they as a whole, the ones we entrust to keep us up to date on such issues? A good example is Frank McKenna. Frank McKenna left as ambassador not because he decided to, but because he was asked to, the day after the Cons won. And the hype about Frank becoming the leader of the Libs as the reason for his coming home are about as braindead as not realizing that the Conservatives have the power to tell him to move on and appoint their own choice, which we have found to be Micheal Wilson, the chief architect of the Free Trade agreement and introducer of the GST, needed after his 7 major deficits in a row.

So, while we get media that is biased, we also get media that is stupid to boot, with a herd mentality that goes with the norm, without ever even questioning why, just assuming that they know motives when they don't know jack, a good majority of the time. Stupid is as stupid does and as such, the media is another example of the blind leading the blind.

I had to work for almost 15 minutes. Worked up quite the sweat I tell ya. If I worked any harder I would have had to turn in my honourary right-winger lapel button.

And I for one always love a little ha-ha which is why I responded.

As opposed to what? Should we instead adopt the issues that pop up on the myriad "freedom" sites on the net? How Alan Rock is a Nazi? Sure, we could bring in one of those high-falutin' right-wing topics to make you feel more at home if you like? Kind of like a "guest topic" such as "Is global warming a left-wing plot?"

Face it, you love it here because you can't find lefties to argue with elsewhere because we're banned from other sites, including that of the great defender of free speech, Ezra Levant's, for daring to be lefties.

A great big west coast Booyah to you Frank!!

Where the hell did that come from?

I am proud to say I mention Campbell's drunk driving more than any other poster on the Tyee. I realize I've let him off lately because of all the attention on federal politics but I'll be happy to get back to it.

As far as I'm concerned, and don't take this personally, seriously, but the public reaction to that broke along party lines and I thought that was pathetic.

If Campbell's guilt is political, then perhaps everyone's guilt should be political. The police could have their own channel where they read the charges against those they arrested that day and then those charged could get up and cry for the camera and say whether they're a BC Lib or an NDP'er.

Then we could all vote on whether he's guilty.

Campbell should not still be the premier of this province. The only plus is whenever I see him on tv I know he's not driving.

So ya, if you live in BC and want to be a socialist you will have to dump the idea that how a person votes determines whether they're guilty or not.

Frank:
I'm kinda blown away that someone would take a jab at your intelligence, dude. Personally, I thought it would take you 10 minutes, but maybe you were surfing TV channels or something in the meantime, or snacking, I don't know.

Anyways, Ezra's days are numbered. He took a swipe at Kleins wife, not smart for a Calgary based paper to do so. All he had to do was belittle everyone else except his precious conservatives. Just play gullum with his "precious" ring of bigot friends. What a loser. Checked out his website for the first time today. What a religious nut wackjob.

Guys,
Relative to Ezra's feverish haste to publish 40,000 cartoon copies of Western Standard - of which Air Canada apparently won't take any - I found this somewhat more moderate stand on the publishing frenzy, go figure:
http://www.cjc.ca/template.php?action=news&story=769

Murdock:
I'm a green party member already, just so you know. Rafe is quite familiar with my posts in his Green and environmental articles, and while there is a green movement world wide going on that is both environmental and political, the big threat is oil baron controlled puppets like Bush and Co.

G West: To bad Israeli Jews aren't the same as the ones up here in Canada. If I lived in a country where my neighbor appoxriated 14% of my lands to pay for a wall to keep me locked in, I might react in ways that are just as extreme.

As it stands, if I lived in a country where my neighbor planted a puppet to lead my country in the hopes that this puppet and friends would control to weaken my country and have their way, I too, might react in ways that are just as extreme...

In regards to the constant refrain of Emerson "crossing the floor" - I would just like to point out that there technically wasn't any "floor" to cross since Parliament hasn't yet commenced. Thus, I also support Emerson to cross a bottomless pit without a bungee cord. Frank, I was wondering where you got your copy of BC's Socialist manual - I am pissed off that I didn't get a copy - sounds like it has some useful information ;). And talking of neighbourhood partisan parties - I got a phone call from jack layton today inviting me to his soiree (being held at 7:30 pm on Thursday, Feb 16th at Sir Alexander school) where the theme of the gathering is emerson's political prostitution and the John (formerly known as Stephen from the party formerly known as CRAP) who picked him up from our corner of Vancouver-Kingsway. Hopefully, we'll be able to clean out the crap stinking up our neighbourhood.

I guess, Murdoch, the only values and interpretations that are valid would be yours.

It really is too bad you have so little to offer. I have gone back and re-read a number of yours posts over several of the articles and note that with the exception of a few posts you generally have a dim view of your fellow posters. Your cynism comes shining through.

From my own point of view, I find many of the folks posting here quite good. In one instance an ongoing discussion between Nightbloom and Bailey I found extremely interesting and quite frankly I must admit to having been in awe of their capacity to carry through a thorough discussion with an obvious respect for each others' opinion. The same can be said for the debate between G West and TCahill.

By the way, if you don't like my views, that's tough, you do not have to read or even respond to them. That is your choice.

In the meantime, upon my return on Tuesday, I will look forward to reading the ongoing discussion between TCahill and G West.

Avicenna
Definitely think the blame for this is mostly on the 'John' - as you put it - but he needs to moved out of a lot of neighbourhoods - not just Vancouver Kingsway. Did you hear today that the whole BC Conservative caucus refused (not once, but twice) to answer any questions about little Davie's joining their ranks. Nice bunch of free thinkers eh!
If one wanted to contact you how could one do that?

G West, as it has been said before, garbage by any other name smells just as foul - and there is definitely something rotting in the house that used to be common.
Of course conservatives are free thinkers - everyone knows that if you want quality, you have to pay for it ;). Unfortuantely, when we go for such low quality goods, we end up having to pay for it with interest down the line....
As to your second query regarding how one goes about contacting me - if you were Mr Layton - you'd simply give me a call. Everyone else in the cyberworld has access to my nonanonymous identity (my disguise is as good as Clark Kent) at http://spaces.msn.com/avicenna-shirin/

you got it!
i have nailed his ears to the wall, and he merely keeps on!

geeze ..taliking about how ARROGANT our politicians are (HARPER/EMERSON,ET AL )

HOW BOUT THOSE YANKEES...the just gave $67 BILLION to the likes of BP SHELL MOBILE ETC.
for oil/gas in the gulf of mexico...which supplies 1/4 of the total supply ....

where are they going to make up that kind of money...

oh! oh!...they're looking up here !

anyone wanna bet who is gonna givem a whack o goodies ????????????????????????????

I was going to write something pretentious about the need to protect the collective versus suppression of the individual but i have a splitting head-ache resulting from a BRUTAL apple cider hangover.
So instead I will say that I enjoyed the ten point blogs of socialist v capitalist.
I think eveyone should submit in this format according to their ideaology. I will.

jesterjogger if your hung up on that crap you better find your self an alcoholics anonymous chapter fast.

Hey Woody..Hi its jesterjogger.
Listen man, I'm feeling really tempted!!

jesterjogger I can assure,by doing something, helpful for yourself its you who will reap the benefits, one of the spin offs is no more hang overs.(the worst feeling on this earth)

Mulroney helped bring Wilson on board as ambassador to U.S.

OTTAWA (CP) - Former prime minister Brian Mulroney played a key role in Michael Wilson's appointment as Canada's new ambassador to Washington.

He dismissed the speculation as idle gossip - until he had a talk with Mulroney just after the Jan. 23 voting day.

The words of the former prime minister - in whose cabinet Wilson served for nine years - got his attention in a way the previous gossip hadn't.

Within days of his talk with Mulroney, who has been a close adviser to Harper, Wilson sought out Derek Burney, a former ambassador to the U.S. as well as a onetime Mulroney chief of staff.

That was Jan. 26, three days after the election. By Feb. 3 Wilson was sitting down with Harper, and by the end of the meeting the job was being offered.
______________________________________________
Mulroney appointed Wilson Minister of Finance when the party formed a government after the 1984 election.

This is the same Michael Wilson who introduced the GST in the spring of 1989.

The Liberal-dominated Senate refused to pass the tax into law.

In an unprecedented move to break the deadlock, Mulroney used a little-known constitutional provision to increase the number of senators by eight temporarily, thus giving the Progressive Conservatives a majority in the upper chamber.

It's looks like we have re-elected a twenty year old government. How progressive is that?

In solidarity with jesterjogger here, against the 12 steppers and their Surrender to a Higher Power Path, :-) I'm bogging back, well sipping a glass of Guiness best. Fine elixir. Just tuning myself up nnd getting the juices flowing to make supper. Something eclectic, like say country style BBQ chili ribs amd ohhhh, a vegetarian fried rice.

Mmmmm, a Warsteiner (in the fridge) would get the creative juices flowing even more....., flowingly. :-)

Brain,

With reference your quote above, indeed. Beers and his "turn Tyee into a CNN wannabe site" is certainly rendering this site increasingly, for me, too, too young, hip, vacuous and boring. My time here is dwindling down fast as well. A tit and ass show only titillates for just so long.

Hollywood North as news, the CNN export model carried into the world by Yankee expats, just isn't going to hold my attention for very long.

Even just as a place to write and exchange views between realtively isolated politicophiles, Tyee is fading fast.

It does for sure get one asking , what more is there I could be doing? Is this all there is?

Regards, bro. (I don't know, but from some lines you've dropped, I suspect we live in "relatively" close proximity, geography-wise.)

Coyote whats with the higher power, like you mean hike up the power rates, you've got the lights confused with the bud light again haven't you,you old souse, which reminds me the main topic here is Emerson, there Ive mention his name , should get me off the hook for deviating, now you will agree, there is just nothing on earth to compare to a hang over, on such occasions death appears as the only relief, and I haven't felt like dying for 30 years now.

i want to quote Corky about Emerson!
it will have to be in 2 seperate posts as it is a bit too The Return of the Ruling Class
Corky Evans
February 12, 2006
Last Monday I had occasion to speak to a Political Science class at University College of the Cariboo in Kamloops. I used my hour with the students to try and argue against cynicism about politics and political activity. I have long believed that cynicism is the path to hopelessness, and hopelessness is the excuse to take no action to improve our collective experience. Academic life sometimes encourages students to confuse cynicism with intelligence, and faith with naiveté. I wanted to refute that assumption and convince the students that the world as they would inherit is theirs to design or abandon and the appropriate way to make that choice was to make it consciously.
I told them that political parties are elemental institutions in our system and encouraged them to join one and participate in the construction of policy and platform. I explained the idea of ³mandate² and how you get one and what it means. I talked about how the ³Estimates² process works and how that allows us to track money and avoid the kind of theft that is the norm in so much of the world.
Finally, I tried to show the difference between British Columbia where (at least for now) the people still own the land and universities and hospitals and gas and ore and salmon and rivers and damsÅ*Å*Å* and other jurisdictions around the world that had lost control of these assets. I begged them to participate in the choosing of candidates and governments that could be trusted to cherish and sustain what we inherit from earlier generations of citizenry and leadership.
Then I got into my truck and drove home. Somewhere around the Monashee I heard that David Emerson had jumped from the Liberal Party to the Conservatives to retain his Cabinet portfolio. I wanted to turn around and go back and apologize to those young people in Kamloops. I was angry with David Emerson for what he was doing to the work that I believe in.
Cops don¹t like dirty cops.
Christians despise priests who use their collars to abuse children. When I logged nobody made me madder than loggers who high-graded land.
And now I do this work and defend it and need to find some way to help Canada get past the likes of David Emerson before those students decide that I am a fool and that cynicism is necessary armour with which to protect themselves against the arrogance of leadership.
long. bear with me. please!

Everyone, I presume, knows the facts. David Emerson is a business leader who ran as a Liberal in the riding of Kingsway in Vancouver. The Conservative Party had not won that seat for half a century. David Emerson told citizens to vote for him to help stop Stephen Harper from forming a government. Conservatives came third in Kingsway, receiving just 18% of the vote.
David Emerson received the most votes and was elected as a Liberal. Last Monday he became a Conservative and was reappointed to his previous Cabinet position in charge of Trade.
Mr. Emerson used to be the CEO of the largest forest company in B.C. I doubt if he knows how to fall a tree or could tell the difference between a hemlock and a Douglas Fir but he knows how to manage money. He is part of that ilk of leadership that John Ralston Saul calls ³Voltaire¹s Bastards² because they know nothing well enough to do the work, but know everything about how to manage the people and money and resources that produce the work. Such people believe that they are part of the business elite that can run a company or a country with equal skill.
In the old days of Marxist vocabulary we used to call such men representatives of the ³ruling class.² (I try my best not to use such words anymore since I noticed that my children¹s eyes used to glaze over whenever I talked that way. It is an archaic language, the language of class. It sounds like Latin to anyone younger than I am.)
Mr. Emerson has indulged in such an excess of arrogant class interest that he invokes the old language as surely as if he had called it up like a ghost to a séance. It reminds me of the monumental extravagances of the rich in the 1920¹s that provided such fodder for the organizers and the poets and the protest songwriters of the 1930¹s.
In the last election I had some difficulty convincing voters that there was no difference between the Liberals and the Conservatives. Sometimes, truth to tell, I even doubted my own analysis as our country became captured by the notion of ³strategic² voting and the two Parties that had a chance to govern were portrayed as somehow not the same people with the same interests and the same financial backers and the same consultants writing their advertising and taking their polls.
Now, though, Mr. Emerson has rekindled my faith in the idea that there really is a ruling class and their belief in their right to ³rule² (as opposed to govern) is absolute.
Because, Mr. Emerson, you can now ³rule² for sure. But you cannot govern. Not in the sense that those young people in Kamloops need you to govern in order that they might believe in the democratic process and participate in it¹s institutions of debate and selection.
Nope. You messed up that chance before your (almost) government was two weeks old. Now you can only rule by force of law.
In the old days people used to talk about the need to ³heighten the contradictions² in capitalism in order that we could all see clearly what was going on. In the old days, Mr. Emerson, you would have been a hero of the Left for your magnificent contribution to our understanding of the world.
These are not, however, the old days. For the sake of the planet, the people and the country, we need democracy to function, not just educate.
I will not forget what you have done to the work I believe in. I am not alone.
You can quit now and save your class further embarrassment, or keep the job and give citizens the pleasure of creaming you (and your new leader) at the polls as soon as they get the chance. If I were a banker I would demand that in the interest of your class, you leave now.
For the rest of us, it hardly matters. One real good antidote to the apathy that comes from cynicism is anger, even fury. For all I despise what you have done to the reputation of elected persons, I nevertheless thank you for seeding the wind so transparently. And I dare you to hang around for the harvest[1].

Coyote:
Yes, that question we all have to oft ask. Whats next? And, why wait for it when we can create it? Create what? The days truly are getting longer, my friend. Life in Revelstoke is a hermits repose, its what people do here. (Should have wintered around Kelowna) But, for as much as I've learned from exploring the issues on this site, especially from characters like yourself, all good things (or sedentary ones) come to an end. Just spending too much ass time here, to be overtly happy about it.

Bobb999, Lynn, Frank, redrivergirl, clubofrome, nightbloom, to name a few, and you as well, coyote, have been a pleasure to exchange views with. Yes, even you Rafe, the one scribe I can count on to read your threads...

The characters here on this site, some are so on top of it. And some... but we all come from different places and people who come here get surprised, I think, with what they find and in truth, I don't want to discourage them from it, but its sometimes too much of an absorption of time.

Its been fun in ways, in helping everyone including ourselves, find it. You know, that thing we all skirt around sometimes and avoid, or become desparate to know when the stakes get high and its far more than personal reputation on the line... dah truth.

We've got some challenges to face in this country and world, and some aren't for gutless pawns, but the aforementioned. And, sometimes its not so bad being a pawn, as even pawns move on and its necessary to learn how to take orders and follow, but to be gutless...

It is so often the opposite of the way we think it is. Least is often the most and most is often the least. What are endings without beginnings, or vice versa? Where would the rest of life be without plankton and algae? Where would the top be without the botttom? Everything greater or lesser, and our connection to their importance, large or small, defines who we are!

And to not even acknowledge the importance of life everywhere, in all of its stages, is to not have lived. So many disconnects... so many of us walking without even a moments thought on what they might be stepping on.

For those who believe in life, the challenges are endless, and, as it often is, it begins at home with our own bodies. It begins with how we treat ourselves, never mind each other. It truly all does start from within. If you drinkers are philosophizin'... origins, timelines, purpose, potential, who, what, where, when, why, will, goal, plan. If we aren't asking, we won't be answering. On that note, enjoy that guiness in your gut, Coyote, noting the little things that helped create such a fine brew. Catch ya later...

Gloomy: Good posts!
Derek Zeizman. Remember him? That accused of car and booze stealing... He got a greater percentage of votes than the conservative in Emersons riding. People there must feel quite betrayed.

Bonne chance!
Lots of challenges ahead, no question! Not quite sure where one goes from here, if anywhere - but there is no doubt still a lot to do and plenty of minds to change. au revoir for now. Good luck with those Steelhead dude!
Cheers

Cheers, G west

brain, enjoy your life and drop in every friday and peruse the week's articles. Just avoid the comments because you know the old saying, every time you try to walk away they drag you back.

The articles do get better. There's a lull after every major event like an election or a teacher's strike. Its meant to be enjoyed, downshifting if you like. Gives you a chance to catch up on other things.

What am I saying, you're in Revelstoke for chrissakes. You're not missing anything except listening to the ice melt.

Thanks, Gloomy... it's always great to hear what Corky has to say.

"

And thanks to you, too, Brain...you have been a great pleasure to read... and to get to know.

I think the commentary does have a life of its own...and a power that is not at first evident...sometimes I will think about what someone wrote days later..and finally "get" what I didn't quite get the first go round. Actually, even changed my mind on some issues from time to time...which, of course, is a woman's prerogative and according to Coyote a man's prerogative as well. :-)

But I agree the days are getting longer...and life is to be lived. Cheers. :-)

Three Days Ago: The Brain
"And what is Harper's potential, will, goal and plan? What was Hitlers potential, goal, will and plan! While many look at Hitler as a genius for his ability and plan to control his masses and incite support for his causes, his will and goals were ones of lunacy and as such, he left his country in complete failure and ruin, hardly something to be confused as genius."

11 Hours Ago: The Brain
"Its been fun in ways, in helping everyone including ourselves, find it. You know, that thing we all skirt around sometimes and avoid, or become desparate to know when the stakes get high and its far more than personal reputation on the line... dah truth."

Personally, I am having a little bit of trouble reconciling these two statements. This is what I believe you should be remembered for or as.

juskatladude, in the first statement brain is not comparing Harper to Hitler, he is simply referencing both leaders in the same block of text with a vague parallel in how we study them.

In the second statement he's telling us he's pregnant.

Not confusing at all

Perhaps we all move on a bit too quickly. Apparently, the people of Vancouver Kingsway who think that Stephen Harper and David Emerson are behaving badly are actually behaving badly themselves. Go figure.

This is what Mr Emerson actually said on a radio talk show:

Everyone who thinks that objections to this episode of appalling behavior ought to be more than a little concerned about what's really going on in this country. The polls I've seen which reflect the public view of the Prime Minister's solicitation of Mr. Emerson lead me to believe that the majority the actual voters in Emerson's riding must therefore be, according to their MP's lights, a bunch of partisan zealots. Interesting that he has such a high opinion of the people who voted for him!

Does that comport with your ideas about democracy? Anyone with any doubt about what's really going on here ought to open their eyes: this is not some media generated outrage but it sure is outrageous

insert 'about' after 'Everyone who thinks that' in the first line of the 2nd last para. This board really could use an 'edit' function!

G West,

Partisan zealots is such a nice phrase for people who would work for free on a political campaign.

Emerson was holding back. He was this close to calling them terrorists.

EMERSONS definitions are taken from a different dictonary ... that of the priviledged (make em up as you go along/out of necessity ,etc)

that he see's kicking his constituents in the crotch/jewels , as ,you, merely walking into his foot ... shows the differences in the system...actually BELEIVING his version of the EVENTS....

OF COURSE THEY'RE ALL FAMILIAR WITH THAT DICTIONARY...THEY WROTE IT !!

And, have you noticed the 'media' taking a lead on this thing, really? After the first few days those guys have pretty much moved on, wouldn't you say?

Definitely a different dictionary - and apparently a different set of 'standards' too.

By the way, am I the only person who's noticed a certain comment after the 'Black History/Comedy' story?

Hey Frank,

If I were to state the following (and please, please, please understand that these are not my views, I am merely trying to understand your apologistic attitude towards the ever hateful Brain):

"And what is Layton's potential, will, goal and plan? What was Stalin's potential, goal, will and plan! While many look at Stalin as a genius for his ability and plan to control his masses and incite support for his causes, his will and goals were ones of lunacy and as such, he left his country in complete failure and ruin, hardly something to be confused as genius.

Likewise, Layton is just another predator who's been brainwashed by economists at his Toronto Union Hall, his own egotistical search of political power, and his own, I think, distorted vision of what he thinks this country should be... a distinct extension of Russia. And to me, that's not genius. Layton might have the plan for it, but his very will and his goals are for the most part, out to lunch."

As I said, I would be horrified if I found myself drawing any parallels, vague or not between Stalin, who had 20 million of his countrymen murdered for such attrocities as being intelligent, and any Canadian elected representative, no matter of what political persuasion. But you come back with "Brain is not comparing Harper to Hitler, he is simply referencing both leaders in the same block of text with a vague parallel in how we study them."

Does not speak highly of your character or ability to think openly.

juskatladude

Not to put too fine a point on it (because as I said before - and you will no doubt have noticed - parallels with a Nazi dictator are unnecessary and unwise) I would have thought Brain's acknowledgement to me of that in a subsequent post - again I suspect you can find the reference if you care to - would have put that particular issue to bed.

As for Stalin, I would never wish to diminish his own deplorable record although I suspect that you may find some scholarly controversy about the allegation that he 'had 20 million of his countrymen murdered for being intelligent'. In any case, Brain is perfectly capable of defending his choice of avatars insofar as Stalin is concerned so I leave that issue lie.

As for the Hitler reference, I think he has already acknowledged his 'error'.

Geez juskatladude, were you here during the last BC election campaign? I think Stalin and Hitler were invoked almost as often as James and Campbell.

I don't support Campbell or Harper = Hitler, I don't need to. Harper is a neo-con. Quite different from Hitler actually if we're anaylzing policy as yer basic 1930's Nazi platform is nothing like a 2006 Canadian Conservative platform.

Harper is more akin to a late 19th century British prime minister than to any Euro-fascist.

As long as people support Campbell the drunk driver to be the leader of this province I think my character and ability to think openly are pretty far down the list of needing adjustment. There's about 2 million other BC'ers that need to think about their values, or lack thereof, before I do.

Just one tiny thing more. Before we all get too serious about calling each other names in a forum which is, at best, a small distraction from reality, it might be a good idea to read this essay from today's Financial Times:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/384be1be-9eb1-11da-ba48-0000779e2340.html

I am also VERY upset. The issue is much bigger than Emerson, Fortier, or any other undeserving appointee or turn-coat politician. This is about DEMOCRACY!!! It is about the future of our country. This petition started a few days ago, had some technical problems at the beginning and then got (maybe?) buried underneath the most recent stuff. But it IS IMPORTANT. There is close to 19,000 signatures to recall David Emerson, but we know now that there is no recall process at the Federal level. So, instead of letting this die, EVERYONE should sign this petition to force Harper to go back on those two appointments or to resign himself. I feel very strongly that there should be MILLIONS of signatures!!
PLEASE! Go and sign!

http://www.petitiononline.com/PSH/petition.html

Did anyone go to the contra Emerson rally today?

just heard preview to nightly news, state...

things apparently heating up and a DE-ELECTION campaign is picking up steam...wow...more hyperbole !!!

Wonder if EMERSON is worried yet ???

well! at least the story has legs...........eh !

sunday,feb 19th/06

No kidding! even Vaughn Palmer, on CBC's Cross Country Check up this afternoon, remarked he was surprised at how upset people still were so long after the event.

There were some interesting calls to that program in justification of Emerson's actions. Not much critical comment about Harper's role though - alas!

hey G West !

cross country check up!!! GEEZE...here i was watching the Fins smoke team Canada !!!!!WHAT A GAME!!!!!!!!!HOPE OUR BOYZ GET IT TAGETHER...FAST!!!!!!!

Vaughn on the CBC...whadda giggle!then again he doesn't talk down to Canadians like that WINDBAG MURPHY...

and the polls(the numbers game)show HARPER'S popularity has ACTUALLY(sic)GONE UP !

Again...people are just happy to see the backside of the LIBERALS...much like they were happy to see the backsides of MULRONEY and his bunch.

Yep, don't know what cheesed me off the most - listening to the radio or watching our hockey geniuses stink up the place.
The Finns played a great game, and the Russians seem to have it together now too - did you see the Swiss miracle on ice?

Polls are a crock, actually, If Harper can get more people to support him by saying absolutely nothing I can't see any reason for him to come out of hiding, can you? By the way, where do you find steelhead these days? Rivers Inlet? Kispiox?

well HARPERS been all over the news the past few days starting the process of bait and switch...the diversions are starting to envelope the masses.

that the old GANG is pulling the strings is hardly noticeable...then again,the names MULRONEY and KARL HEINZ SCHRIEBER...bags of money...libel suit...remind people what these clowns can be capable of...SO NOTHING IS REALLY PUSHED IN OUR FACE...the CONS seem to be offering...solutions

it's soft sell.....then again this is a minority govt. that really has to watch their P's and Q's

i never give out my fave steelhead holes....but having lived on vancouver island the last decade,i have fished every inch of every river and can say...I ALREADY BEEN TO HEAVEN !!!

The summer I spent on the Dean was pretty close to heaven too, I must admit.

From Monique:

I find it interesting that you feel/think this way.

First, the ballot: You get to cast a vote for a PERSON to become the Member of Parliament for the particular riding. So in our system of representative democracy, everyone got to vote on in Jan 06 and those who did got to vote for a PERSON. You do not vote for a (party) the (party) afiliation is on the ballot, yes. You do not vote for a (party) in our system, for that I am happy.

Second, appointments: the PMO has had imperial powers for these sort of appointments from the start, they are not often or always exercised, but every PM has these powers. Like it or not, PMPM had this power and gave us the GG Jean, Darth Cretien had them and gave us the current Supreme Court and most of the senate currently sitting. Lyin Brian had these powers and used them as he saw fit. You can go back to Confederation and see all PM's use them. Perhaps you, Monique, need to educate yourself better about our system, this education may go a long way to solving your being 'upset'.

About Democracy? Perhaps, especially if we can leverage the emotion into dumping the FPTP system we have and the 'representative' element and move towards a more 'direct' democracy. But as I state above, in our system; democracy has been served.

About the future of our country? Definately, as I see the demands of PQists pushing 'la belle province' further towards independance, so too do I think that other regions of the patchwork called Canada should move towards more independant action.

Murdoch m'boy
You're starting to sound like a broken record. 'Democracy' means a lot of different things to different people. Furthermore, although you have to break some eggs to make an omlette, you don't have to throw the fridge and stove out the door too. We can save a lot that still works and make some of the things that work a little bit now function a lot better.
I wish I could convince you not to be such a pessimist - that'd be a reason to rejoice, in my opinion.