Excellent step by step reasoning, with the obvious conclusion.

The only change that should occur in this election is to vote in the party that has yet to have the chance to screw things up. The NDP.
And I don't want to hear how their Provincial counterparts have already screwed things up,because When a Liberal or Conservative provincial government screws up all I hear from the right is they are not the same as the Feds. So that should negate that arguement.
All I see in Stephen Harper is a person who wants to be Prime Minister at any cost. There is no other substance to that man. His party would rule and he would be the smiling puppet.

For Gary.

The NDP, naionally and provincially are the same party - they like to trumpet and stress that.

Consider what they, the NDP did in Ontario and bungled along in Sask and BC.

No. The NDP is, at best an opposition party, first they should serve on the opposition benches, then once more relevant experience is gained they should stand a better chance at governing (possibly with greens as their opposition?)

ROFL!

Let's face it, voters have an awful choice in this election. The 'crook' Martin, 'out of his league' Layton; and 'neocon' Harper! We need change in Canada, as we can't keep this country as a 19th centuray fiefdom, that benefite only the Liberal 'elites' and their puppy dogs, in the 21st century

In South Delta/Richmond, Cummins will get re-ellected as he is, rare in Canada, a good MP, certainly better than the 'fence post with hair' Liberal MLA.

But quality MLA's are few and far between as most are party hacks, who get their Parlimentary Positions by brown nosing.

As for my vote, I'm voting 'Green', strictly as a protest vote. In the past we had the reform party, but not now.

This election is needed, but the party leaders leave the voters wanting!

From Stan's perch in Berlin I suppose this is what he sees in Canada.

I saw a corrupt federal government that made me so sick to my stomach. I was shocked that the conscious-minded NDP supported the sickeningly corrupt Liberals.

I saw the use of sleazy tactics in the house of commons with the influence-peddling being passed from one billionaire (PMPM) to a billionairess (BS) in order to keep in power.

I saw the sand-box method of passing bills; waiting until the Conservatives were not in the house of commons and calling a vote at 10 pm so that there could not be a negative vote for a money bill; thus bring down the government.

The Gomery scandal alone should have been enough to end this Liberal Government, not to mention Radwonsky, Shawinigate and a double-dozen other scandals that together spell a truly corrupted-to-the-core party, the Lie-berals.

Thought to be gone many decades ago, I believe that the 'family compact' is back, and only a revolution will end it this time as there is no 'crown' to appeal to.

Anybody who thinks that an appointed and highly paid corporate lobbyist, former Reformer, with a mile long paper trail of anti human sentiments, can overnight become a people friendly democrat it dreaming in technicolor.

Harper's campaign reminds me very much of Gordon Campbell's in '01. The only lucky part is that Harper, learning from Campbell, is also doing his own TV commercials.......... It worked for Campbell, but Harper ain't. Let's hope he'll keep it up.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I don't get this hidden agenda, "Harper eats babies and we'll all be dead if he gets in" fear. Its obvious to me that Martin makes it up as he goes along, repackages the same old tired crap, and has never even said "Sorry" for Adscam. He didn't say it either to the Chinese head tax- wants to avoid culpality. Harper seems characterless but forthright to me, sharing honestly all his concerns, and strategies. Layton seems like a yappy mutt in the spotlight, tangling with the big dogs who could bite his head off if they actually paid any attention to him....maybe the debates tonight will tell the tale.

the tyee bashing stephen harper at election time is kinda like coming home to chicken soup and a warm fire. all is well in the world.

Wow, all the right wingnuts in the same room at the same time. You guys having a party or something.

This is why the Greens don't have a hope in hell. They have not come out and defined themselves as a party that keeps rednecks, reactionaries and vote-parkers at the gate.

And Stan's piece was originally published on December 7th on Dooneyscafe.com. Credit where credit's due, guys!

well the GST is a highly REGRSSIVE tax and Harper will reduce it . . . even the that bastion of neo-communisim, the Centre for Policy Alternatives, would have to agree with reducing regressive taxation. And there is more atx policy to come - its a long election so stay tuned !!

and he wants to strengthen our sovereignty so we don't have to beg the Amercians to come in and fly emergency supplies, equipment and personnel around Canada during floods & icestorms. That's a good idea.

And he did support removing Saddam Hussein from power - him of the mass murdering Butcher of Baghdad ilk - you do know they have found about 300 mass graves now and upwards of 750,000 Irauis were mmurdered during his regim. So that's a good change.

and helping families to the tune of $1200 per child under six is pretty cool - I know this forum would prefer thusands more CUPE members working in a statist childcare centres serving 25% of Canadian families - then when the Nurses or Healthcare unions go on illegal strikes to squeeze extra privledges outta the government all the Day Cares would close as well - just like in the Quebec model.

So Harper does stand for some changes Stan, just ones that you don't like

Time to lock yourself up in your comfy fur socialist nirvana progressive dream world like a good little vitimized wanna-be.

The actions of the invader/war criminals resulted in more civilian deaths than Saddam delivered in a comparitive window. Include the military deaths (after all, many of them were justly defending their country against an agressor regardless of their feelings towards Saddam) and it becomes even worse. The hypocrisy and ignorance of supporters of this war is mind boggling. On this point alone Harper should be defeated and sent back to his lizard cage. The US is not morally or ethically sound as a nation at this stage in its history so such an action is destined for failure. Harper wants to tether us to this beast which, to its credit, is finally, slowly, beginning to wake up to its internal crises. Canada must do the same, but on its own terms and around its own issues.

"The actions of the invader/war criminals resulted in more civilian deaths than Saddam delivered in a comparitive window. "

WRONG, MORE SOCIALIST BULLSHIT

read & head http://www.logictimes.com/antiwar%20pf.htm

If you can't handle reality, do more drugs buddy.

In any democracy it is unhealthy for any party to stay in power for to long. The Liberals have become rotten and actually feel sorry for a lot of the decent rank and file in the party. Kicking them out of power will be the best thing for them. It will give the them a chance to clean house restore themselves. I also don’t see the conservatives winning by any great margin and coupled with their inexperience and various factions within the party, I doubt you will see any major changes in the first term, more likely a whole bunch of small changes, here and there.

At least they haven’t promised to confiscate private property in order to garner votes like the Liberals did, despite overwhelming evidence that their ideas are wonky.

When I hear that tone of despair "I'll vote for the Green Party!" what I immediately see is the Alliance incarnation. Green isn't about the environment, it's about healthy corporations. Just like the Alliance wasn't about unity, it was about healthy corporations. Both these figments of some huckster's imagination were meant simply to be vote-catchers. x $1.75 at that.

It's important to understand that the NDP isn't "supporting" the Liberals. What the NDP proposes to do is to be the lever keeping the Liberals on track to get some decent legislation for people. As they did during the Fall session of Parliament.

That's why the NDP will get my vote. Three of us, in this household, will have the privilege of voting for Olivia Chow.

Fred and Ethel? I looked at your silly site (which ignores entirely my rightful inclusion of military deaths in the total) and here's a line from it:

This, obviously, applies directly to American foreign policy.
Please, don't vote in January if this is the best you can do. Democracy is best served by an informed electorate. Also, perhaps you can direct us to evidence that suggests the contained, "paper tiger" Saddam of 2003 could have kept killing. Bush wants his govt's sins forgiven. Remember, they aided and abetted Saddam during his reign.

is olivia chow any smarter than jenny kwan? or is she using the feminist ethnic vote to her advantage like little jenny, the decorative lampshade with the bulb burnt out, has been doing for oh so many years?

Sorry Stan, but your personal opinion does not make for hard fact

While you paint a rosy picture of the Canadian political, economic, and social landscape, not all believe its puppies and rainbows. I’m sure this is a shock.

Sure there’s cash in the pipe for...

Health care – the emperor has no clothes: Martin won’t admit it, while Layton still believes

Kyoto Accord – 30% above our targeted emissions with no real plan

Urban infrastructure renewal – I don’t suppose you commute from Berlin to Vancouver, but the concerns are real

Day care – here’s a shocker: not everyone agrees on a ($?? billion) child penitentiary system

Post-secondary education – being a Dipper you should read up on the CFS literature. You’d think the sky is falling

1) is the Martin Liberal government especially corrupt?, and 2) are Canadians justified in not trusting politicians? No. And no.

People are sick our current one party system of entitlement and do want change. The sad truth is that the apathetic electorate doesn’t trust any of the options on the ballot. They must be wing-nuts too.

jasbro, you must be psychic, because near as i can tell, steve has been nothing but ambiguous about every issue. i agree with the characterless part.

fred and ethel - which foreign leader would you declare war on next?

how do you decide who is evil enough?

whose son would you send to die, for your personal morality? yours?

why should ron erwins's daughter get $400, unrestricted, each month for his under six year old grandkids?

is that the best use for that money?

do you think it will be invested in birth control devices, or councelling in financial management, or maybe self control? or popcorn.....

are you in the 3/4 who drink tee many martoonies, before you get a vision?

or does a god speak to you?

really - how do you come to your conclusions?

steve harper has a hidden agenda, or maybe no agenda.

if by fluke, harper gets to form the govt, then you will see REGRESSIVE.

why does he take cues from lyin' brian, the worst pm, ever?

here is wishing them all a cold, wet, and extremely unpleasant campaign, with the same result we had last time.

'steve harper has a hidden agenda, or maybe no agenda' another lefty sheep touting the mindless party blather.

good point, bc mary, and often overlooked.

the liberals are pretty good at the economy, but i am not yet willing to trust them with a majority.

nor will i be, unless and until there is real punishment for adscam.

i dream of chretien, pelletier, carle, et al, dangling by their thumbs, in a dark, dank, rat infested dungeon, next to lyin' brian....(sigh)

harper is just plain scarey.

some of his guys are downright funny, except they are serious.

they have too many who think the church should be the state.

so i hope for the same result as last time, liberal experience and expertise, closely scrutinized, and balanced, by the ndp, working for the good of the people.

i do not see the muroneyites being good for canada in the majority, nor as a temperer of liberal policies.

does anyone think (hope) that a significantly poorer showing for harper, or martin, will result in them rethinking their future in politics?

I tend to agree with Mr Persky. As is apparent from the comments here, many people certainly seem dissatified, angry and want change. Personally, I don't understand why. Things are generally pretty good. Sure there's the odd scandal, but is it really any worse than under past Conservative governments? Can anyone point to a government or political party that was scandal-free? Perhaps the Bloc, but then they've never been in government. As far as I can tell, Liberals, Conservatives, NDP, PQ have all had scandals when they've been in government. The Conservatives even managed a minor scandal when they weren't in goverment (remember Peter Mackay's signed promise which he promptly broke?)

Bottom line is that no party has a claim to any higher "moral authority to govern", whatever that means. So let's focus on public policy, and what we want changed. Wanting change for the sake of change is ridiculous. It's a game show mentality that hopes that whatever is behind door #2 is better than what I've got.

wrong again, or is it still, elliot?

just an observer of the obvious.

actually, i think there is something seriousy deficient in anyone who wants to be a politician.

or the 'boss' in general.

offhand, the only honourable politician i can think of was chuck cadman, the only guy who voted the way his constituants wanted him to.

It is, theoretically, a desire to become a servant of sorts. Of course, that is often the exact opposite of the impulse that drives most politicians. But I'd be suspicious of the "servant" impulse too!

Wanna destroy the Conservative Party? Elect them to power this time around under Stephen Harper; this would reduce them to absurdity without the Liberals having to lift a finger, and they'd be unelectable for the next 25 years.

Concerned Citizen

I absolutely agree with you. Its the media monopoly that is controlling the fate of Canada and we have a full scale stealth invasion going on in Canada. We are supposed to have 80% computer usage in Canada - why aren't Canadians doing any personal investigations to what is going on?
There is so much revealing info around if you look for it. The media will print what they want you to know and spin it the way they want you to hear it. After you read somethig in their newspapers you will hear it on their tv stations and talk show talking about what you read in the newspaper and on and on it goes - our only hope is the net and they are trying hard to figure out how to control it too. have to run.

On Dec 1 Stockwell Day was on Israeli national radio stating that if Harper gets in Canada will be Israeli's big supporter. Hear a word about it in any of our newspapers ?? - its now the December 16th - read Barbara Yaffe's propaganda column a couple of days ago supporting this in a sneaky way and so much much more - its amazing - not word about it from Harper. Somebody tried to tell it on CKNW and Peter Warren just about had a heart attack trying to cut him off before anyone could realize what he was saying. He had Harper on with a phony fluff interview while he viciously attacks any Liberal minister that comes on. Its so blatantly dishonest and obvioud I can't understand why more people don;t see it.

Google "Stockwell
Day on Israeli radio" Google "see no evil no more by Patricia Pearson" how right she was - see what has happened since she quit.

If you think that the NDP has no chance in your riding then I suggest you vote liberal.
Otherwise vote NDP.
Another coalition, except with a higher NDP/liberal ratio, would be the best option for Canada.
If lizard eyes gets in only the wealthy, corporations and right-wing americans will benefit.
Queen Charlottes guess what moratorium will get lifted right off the bat?
Tax payers- hey why pay taxes to fund desperately needed social programs and universal healthcare when that money can goto something really useful like star wars and corporate welfare?
Gay people-God shall smite thee and thy wicked ways!!

jasbro, dig up a few of Herr Harper's speeches when he was in charge of the National Citizen's coalition.

Have a look at the genesis of his party, APEC, Refrom and WCC.

The agenda is not hidden. It is wide open.

The Liberanos need to be turfed. And it is a ridiculous notion that the NDP could ever be any kind of progressive or effective gov't. The Conservatives are Canada's oppotunity to climb out of the wishy washy socialist state we're currently in.

All this Liberal fear crap about Harper is truly pathetic. Desperate measures by a desperate gov't. Time to clean up this country and take it back from the liberal socialists who want to give it away.

Why does Stephen Harper hate Jesus?

Give it away? I believe it's the cons that wish to hand it over to the US. What I don't get about you conservatives is what has a Liberal government done to you that is so wrong? Are you not prosperous? You aren't making the money you could be? Well if that's the case, then you're not working hard enough.

I think the issue there is no one cares what Day says anymore.

Change? How about chaning the trajectory of a 60% increase in program spending over the past 7 years with no appreciable improvement in living standards. As an average taxpayer I'd rather have the $3500 more per year that it's costing me in my own pocket.
Jesterjogger - Why pay taxes when special interest groups dominate the conversation and prevent meaningful discussion on how to improve any government funded processes?

That wasn't very nice of you, Stan, to get everything so right I can't come up with an excuse to rant and rave.

Jamez what have the Liberals done to me that is so wrong? That is hilarious. Well, where do we start?

-They've stole my money (adscam)
-Gun Registry worth Billions that does NOTHING
-Refusal to take any strong action on crime
-taxes taxes and more taxes
-They're condescending attitude towards the population in general such as I can't manage money enough except to spend it on popcorn and beer.

The Liberals are a joke. For 12 years they've made a mockery of Canada. From Cretien's bizarre, pathetic and embarrassing attempts at diplomacy to Martin's ridiculous ideas about things like banning handguns (what's that gonna do?!?!).

This gov't needs to be turfed!

Considering that usually means privatization or a PPP who cares?

Jamez - Oh, let me see...how about the taxpaayers that have to pay for it?

Yeah, and conservative governments NEVER do that. :Rolls eyes:

poindexter

You are obviously another scurrilous neocon plant that is trying to destroy Canada as we know it. You'd like to undermine our history, our constitution, charters, and laws and try to rewrite the history of a Libereal Government that has had very good results after 12 years - their mistakes are miniscule compared to many other governments for e.g. the U.S. has 7 BILLION dollars of Iraqi money disappeared and unaccounted for and much much more corruption and deficits in the TRILLIONS - the Americans grandchildren and great grandchildren will be paying the debts incurred by the Bush Aministration mostly on the advice and urging of an invasion that was not in the best interest of
America by a gang of Neocons that have largely fallen from favor in the U.S. are levelling their sights on greener pastures - CANADA - there are articles on this very subject so
canada you better wake up and smell the coffee or you will see a change all right - and I don't think you're going to like it.

What do you think Harper wants all those extra billions of defense spending on carrier ships for troops and helicopter gunships and tanks and on and on? Peacekeeping? ya, right!

Remember HRDC ?
Gun Registry
Cancelling the Pearson Airport contract
Cancelling the helicopters we had on order
Adscam
No white males need apply to Public Works
Gay marriage
I know the Conservative Party could be our saviour. What more do The Liberals have planned for us.
I heard Paul Martin describing his Daycare program as being at par with other national programs, like Medicare.Like Medicare ? can you imagine what a F up this could be ?
What's with this handgun ban ?
How about the EI surplus of 45 billion.
What about the billions of dollars in foundations that Sheila Frazer can't audit ?
What about Indian Affairs and the 8 billion that costs us every year.
What about the CRTC that censors what we can hear and see.
What about 1 billion going to the CBC each year.
What about our weak military ?
???????? Are you all nut's voting for The Liberals.

The election in Iraq happened yesterday, over 70% voted. They had to walk to the polls.
It's a thing of beauty.
What a stunning success this war has been.
Let's see if we can do the same, 70 % of us voting would be spectacular.
Vote for good over evil. Vote Consevative.

ha rebel, go pedal your fear mongering down on commercial drive with all the other delusional freaks. We need the conservatives to keep people like you from having any influence in our society - scared of anything that makes you accountable or that makes you have to contribute to society.

GO CONSERVATIVES!!!

"round and round and round in the circle game"

30,000 DEAD people would disagree with you on that.

rebel' you are out to lunch. What do you mean the hardly made any mistakes in 12 years. Read all the mistakes listed above. You gotta be crazy.
And how can you possibly compare the Lib record to that of the US.
What have you been drinking.
Iraq was a stunning success. The US did a great deal in a mere 32 months.
You sound like one of these stupid Michael Moore, Cindy Sheeham types.
Go back to the 60's where you belong
GO CONSERVATIVES , we need you badly.

Ah, beautiful. A gem-like example political myopia. Intelligent people with a grasp of history (even pro-Bush right wingers) understand that it is foolish in the extreme to make such statements.

Reading some of these posts by Ron Irwin et al I have to wonder if they're Tyee plants! You know, the type that need watering every once in awhile!

I guess its too obvious to say:
"Go back to the 50s"?

jamez they would if they weren't dead

12/14/05
Liberal 39
Reform-Conservative 32
NDP 12
Bloc1 2
Green 5

Got some bad news for you Ron; Adolf and the Ubermenchen are not going to form a government.

The most relevant post to date on this thread has been from BCMary. The best possible outcome for the PEOPLE of Canada is a minority Liberal government with the NDP holding the balance of power.

Any rational person knows that Harper et al will Campbellize our Country in a second.

Yes, its hard to make a choice if you're considering the Conservatives as the only an alternative to the Liberals, they both have a lot to be ashamed of.

However a Liberal governement with a NDP conscious to guide them is the best bet for all of us.

I'm confident that in the Kootenays we'll be replacing our Conservative with a NDP'er. This is a great time to ensure Canadian values are upheld.

Stunning success? You are so stunned I hate to even dignify your garbage with an answer. The reason for the turnout is because the Iraqi people can hardly wait for the Americans to get out of their country. Unfortuneatly the U.S. are busily installing 14 permanent bases there and will be there for decades to try to maintain control in their persuit of telling the whole world what is the RIGHT way to live - their way! Where the bottom line and the almighty dollar is the most important thing in the world.

I am not beholden to any party but I am concerned about my country and wouldn't even mind as long as it is a good person dedicated to Canada. I do not believe this is true of Stephen Harper, I think he would like to USE Canada to realize his own ends and if by chance he got in if Americans said the Bush gang were the most secretive gov they every had - I think Harper would be very secretive and is an imposter with an agenda he is not talking about at all.

little elliot writes:

"is olivia chow any smarter than jenny kwan? or is she using the feminist ethnic vote to her advantage like little jenny"

Elliot, your comment above is racist and sexist. Free speech does not mean such offensive drivel is acceptable. If you are not able to engage is civilized debate, go away. Or better still, grow up.

It is regrettable I think, but I agree with yourself and BC Mary, that the return of a minority Liberal government, with the NDP holding the balance of power is the "...best possible outcome...".

It's the "unfortunate and limited" reality of the current FPTP electoral system, for progressive, left and working class voters, in my view. And preferably there should be even more NDP seats, making the Liberals even more vulnerable.

That much I agree with at this time, and in this particular place and situation.

The danger, of course, is that the Liberals and their corporate friends will decide that they prefer a German style Grand Alliance with the Conservatives over the NDP. Certainly NOT outside the realm of choice and possibility (As the right wing "social democrat" establishment of the NDP would almost certainly prefer over an alliance with a "serious left", in a like situation.)

But what is most needed in the nation is, the building of a "serious" and militant left, amongst the working class in the economy, on the street and interconnected with the poor and dispossesed, communities and NGO social groups, and independantly in the electoral system, preferably a "proportional representation" electoral system. It's a need and a work that needs to be taken more seriously, to more effectively counter the neoconservative pressures coming out of the ruling class within our own and US Empire capitalist societies.

What really burns me about this whole election process is the Bloc party.
The criterion for a national party is presently strictly based on the number of vote representation. That doesn't mean a damn when the party only represents one province. What kind of democratic representation is that?
None of our political party leaders have the guts to take on this issue and what does that say for our Canadian electoral system. This would NEVER happen in the U.S. I'm not saying that the Americans have a preferable system but they sure as hell know democracy better than we do!!!

Well, being a person who comes from the West, where there has been a long history of regional based parties, I don't have a problem with a Quebec based Bloc Partie. (Reform, Western Canada Party, even an Alberta Party if I recall correctly from long ago.)

But even that aside, I think Canadians generally have to come to accept, if they really want to keep the current Canada together, that Quebec is NOT just another province like every other province, but more a separately distinguishable "nation" within what has been described as a "two nation State". (There are many multi-nation states in the world, including Russia which has many more than two even.) Now we can whine and cry about that reality, but it is a reality nonetheless, and they are going to see themselves that way, as do the "aboriginal nations of Canada", regardless of what we or you do, or do not think.

Canada is NOT the simple white, Anglo, Aryan nation some simplistic individuals of a certain political bent might wish, or even try and shoe horn it to be. Never was. Is not now. We have a more complex multi-national history than that and it is bound to be reflected in the character of our State, and the way each part of it, minority and/or majority, see themselves.

Quebecers tend to see themselves as a nation, with a "national" view of themselves-, even though they have been a part of the larger Canadian experience for a long time, and I think, would prefer themselves even to remain so. Now we can accept that, for it what it has fundamentally been anyway, and worked "reasonably" well for all parts, or we can fight it and insist they get into our particular straight jacket view of the Canadian State and the world, until we finally do really drive them out of the Canadian Union. (It is actually much a decision that will as much be made by Anglo-Canada, and how rigid and unyielding we choose to be.)

I prefer to accept what is. Nay, even to embrace it, that there are three "main" founding nations to Canada; Aboriginal, Anglo/immigrant and French/immigrant, which is going to be reflected in the institutions and structure of Canada, sooner or later-, assuming "narrow" nationalist zealots and bigots on both sides don't drive it to ruins.

My Canada includes all three of these main "founding" nations. I embrace it. I don't fight it or look for a Civil War.

Ehh, I even like Duceppe. I think he is an interesting and effective politician for his "national" part of Canada. I wish we had a few with as much "fire in the belly" as he has, vis a vis the real threat to us all, that is the US Empire.

Check this week's Macleans rag.
No, it's not Harper, they're demonizing, or Martin, or even separatist terror Duceppe.

Macleans has come out with a triple pronged attack on Svend Robinson! Yes, they offer up an editorial, plus the main feature of the mag, a several page article.The 3rd prong is the front page with a large photo of Svend and a derogatory headline!

Mcleans is trying to demonize Svend for the infamous ring, plus the acts of barbarous, law breaking civil diobedience he's engaged in over the years. Much is made that Svend has been (gasp)- a Jailbird! It is claimed Svend is morally and ethically unfit to serve Canadians in parliament!

I have a few salient questions for the hatchet job gang at Canada's National Ragazine:

-Where the heck were you guys around the time of BC's last prov. election that re-elected Gordo who was convicted of drunk driving in Hawaii, a criminal act in BC? He wasn't just driving drunk, he was driving blotto, way over .08. And he was speeding while he weaved his way down that twisting Hawaiian highway.Gordo was not only a menace to himself but to every living creature that happened to be anywhere near his path that night.

By contrast, Svend's ring affair harmed no one but himself, and endangered no one else.
If Svend, the ring thief, is too irresponsible for office, does Mcleans think Premier Drunko
is more responsible?

-Why aren't you Mcleans axe wielders pillorying Svend's Liberal opponent, Hedy Frye, for her well documented ethical lapses and dishonesty?

-If Mcleans is so concerned about ethical and legal lapses, what the f*** are they doing still retaining Lord Conrad Black's wife, Barbara "my-extravagance-knows-no-bounds" Amiel,as a regular columnist?

I believe Mcleans' onslaught against Svend is a transparent attempt to sway would be NDP voters in Vancouver, and across Canada into entertaining second thoughts about so voting.

The rag does not want the NDP to hold the balance of power.

Would Mcleans prefer a majority of Liberals, the party that stole much more than $50,000
(Svend's ring's value) from taxpayers?

I predict Mcleans' attempts will backfire and fail miserably.
Instead of sullying Svend's and the NDP's reputations, they are only sullying their own.

If I didn't receive my subscription as a yearly gift from my Mom, I would not spend a dime or a minute of my time on Mcleans. They have become a cheap propaganda vehicle,and otherwise, they
are just an outdated rehash of sexy headline news items from the previous week.Yawn.Most of it I flip right on past, including Ms. Amiel.
What a waste of Canadian trees!

I didn't like this article. I think this time around there is nothing hidden about Harper's agenda, and while I had supported him in the past, there are a few major issues that are on his plate that clearly endanger our freedoms.

Gay Marriage. Drop the damn issue, its been legal in half the provinces for nearly a decade, and there is no reason the federal government should have anything more to say about it. I too believe we needed a free vote on this, but we got one. As long nothing is stopping me from having a straight marriage who cares.

War on drugs. Across North America we know that both criminalization and decrimalization failed. We need it legal and regulated, there is nothing wrong with individual choice, the problems are with prohibition era gangs that wreck havic on our society, increase theft and now murder, and which drag addicts into a cycle of despair rather than giving them the means of getting out.

It wasn't all that many years ago that MacLeans mag actually had a serious readership. But who the phuck reads it now?

I wouldn't worry too awful much about anything MacLeans writes. They just about have to give it away, just to have it read only in shitters.

I know the only time I ever used MacLeans years ago, was just before I wiped my ass with it in the outdoor crapper. :-)

Ehhh, not a half bad piece and perspective immedediately above me here dangrice.

So long as we're here in the confessional of politics, "Et nom du spiritus, sancto Deo.", I'll 'fess that upon reflection that we have an unrepentant "Reformer" here as a Conservative sitting MP, it's a situation I cannot tolerate, and I'm going to have to cast a ballot afterall. If it was a Liberal or NDPer, I wouldn't bother, either one is equally mushy.

A federal Liberal hasn't got a significant vote here for a long time, whereas we have a sitting NDP MLA. So unless I get wind from the community that has turned around, and the Lib has the greater likelihood of success, I'm backed into the corner of voting NDP again.

No, I am not happy about it, but the real world is the real world.

The Mrs. is hollering from the living room that I should make some popcorn, and I think maybe I'd like a shot of vodka, so I'm outta here. A man's gotta do, what a man's gotta do. If she wasn't a good woman, I'd tell her to make it herself. :-)

Then she'd just say coquettishly, "But you make it so much better."

Women! They are soooo.... What's the word?

Bread day tomorrow, which I like to get up early and get out of the way.

Nighty night.

hey wally-boy; if you truly believe that jenny kwan has been holding her seat all these years on merit then you're as daft as she is.

I'm sure Coyote and I are not the only ones who
have concluded that Canada's National Ragazine, Macleans is a journalistic disgrace,now beyond hope of redemption.

I think I too may vote NDP (much against Macleans desire)this time (having voted Green ever since regretting voting for Glen Clark's NDP).

I'd much prefer to see Layton's NDP holding a balance of power in another Lib minority than to see Harper lead any kind of gov't.

Maclean's is a joke, who reads it? As for Svend, I just wish he go away and retire on some island. I hate retread politicians and with Svend running again, it gives me another reason not to vote for the NDP.

Speaking of retread politicians, it seems that the NDP specializes in those. Dawn Black is running in New West-Coquitlam.

The last time that Black was in parliament, Mulroney was PM and she was campaigning for the Charlottetown agreements.

Smart, Coyote. The word is smart. :-)

I'm voting NDP too.

I don't think Ontario would not vote Liberal if it appeared Harper had a chance and I think it is safe to vote NDP here in BC. Also, in many ridings it is btwn the Cons and the NDP.

I watched part of the debate. I really found the format boring and condescending and some of the 'citizen's questions self-serving. Especially the man who threatened to shop around for another country! Please do so. Canada is entitled to have her own professional standards. And, if we do not, it will create tiers of professional esteem. Usually I would watch the entire debate. But, the sound-bite responses and lack of real passionate debate are so very tedious. However, they did talk about NAFTA and Layton said it has to be reworked. It is unacceptatable as is. Or, words to that effect. It would be so good for Canada if the NDP got in. I'm dreaming, I know.

At least Duecepe keeps it simple. With any bill etc...is it good for Quebec? Yes? Then we go for it. Would it not be refreshing to have a prime minister who also asked is it good for Canada, for a change? Oui.

If there' nothing in law supporting the traditional marriage as defined for now as being the marriage between opposite sex partners, then why do the gays fear Steven Harper ?
It's not a Charter issue.
Paul Martin may attempt to pit Conservatives against the Charter. But he is being dishonest.
Anyone who has studied Section 15 knows that it doesn't help anyone in this debate.
In fact, it probably helps the Conservatives. I say, let us all take a pill and relax.
The Conservative view is not a view that should freak anyone out.
It's only a miidle of the road impression of what Canadians think.
Let's go for cival unions as a respected, legal alternative to marriage, but listed as a separate term, in order for us all to be happy.

Jamez, you're right (I hope) that nobody cares what Stockwell Day thinks anymore.

But the godawful truth is: he'll be our Minister of Foreign Affairs if ... ... if ... if things go badly wrong on 23 January 2006.

Given what Harper himself has said in his speeches while he was the head of the National Citizen's Coalition I feel there is a great need for concern. What Harper needs to do is clearly distance himself from his own past statements. Further, he and his party need to distance himself from the parties that formed the present Conservative Party of Canada such as The Alliance for the Preservation of English in Canada and The Western Canada, Concept of which have had ties with variious neo-Nazi groups.

Further, Harper needs to distance himself from people such as former MP Jim Pankiw and Randy White. If Harper were so honest and in the open, he would address such people and the above stated issues.

Thus, Harper is not coming clean about his past, the past of his party and its members.

That is a lot of distance, isn't it?

The leaders' debates? Twice I set myself up in my most comfortable armchair and began to watch those 4 identically-jacketed guys behind identical lecterns each waving his 2 hands like identical little windmills. Mute was just as good as audio.

For a while, I compared their neckties. Layton, Duceppe, Harper each wore a striped necktie and a blue shirt under their black jackets. Martin's shirt was white and his necktie was my favourite colour: red. But also a black jacket. However, the best windmilling: Paul Martin. Worst worried eyebrows: Paul Martin. Best mustache, Jack Layton.

But then, how would I know? Both nights, I fell sound asleep in my chair, waking up refreshed when the Political Pundits began to explain What It All Means.

Martin was a dithering joke. Patting himself on the back for his actions while thieves were walking into our vault under his watch.

A vote for the Libranos is a vote for corruption!

Please don't reward thievery of our money. Please vote for someone other than your Librano candidate. It's the right thing to do.

Yeah, hopefully when we have the next election in 18 months, we will have different characters at the table. Man, these four guys are getting out done. Martin, as usually was boring with the one exception of his my children were born in Quebec attack on Duceppe. I love it when leaders get angry, it reminds you that they're not entirely stuffed animals.

I wish Duceppe would give up on the idea of soveriegnty, and then run candidates nationally as I think he is usually the most genuine person at the table, but I guess its easier to sound honest when you don't have to cater your message to the vast expanses. Big thumbs up to his comments about respecting the constitution and the fiscal imbalance between the federal government and other areas.

Harper always sounds the most intelligent, and sounds like a guy who you would pay to talk, even if you wouldn't pay him to lead. If only he could give up pandering to the socons. Props to his final speech, regardless of content or message, he really has some good speech writers behind him. His use of repetition and contrast was right out of one of my speechwriting books. A vote is for this not that, this not that, this not that.

Layton I think understands the value of this debate more than anyone. If you are in a debate where you can't actually force your opponents to respond, don't waist time with policy, use these two hours as a free infomercial reminding people to vote NDP to send more NDP reps to parliament. And remember, its all about repetition, repetition, repetition.

Canada would not survive if the conservatives get into power.

They would work to dismantle the federal government by turning over their functions to the provinces.

The Alberta corporate media are promoting Quebec separatism because they believe without Quebec it would be easier for conservatives to form the government.

They would sell off the post office.
Weaken the Canada Health Act.
Sign away the rest of our sovereignty in more trade "deals".
Let's not forget the social conservative agenda to meddle in people's personal lives.

Stephen Harper is the same scary politician, he is just learning to say the right thing. Why else would the Fraser Institute give him a standing ovation when he defended the Canada Health Act when their reason for being is to destroy medicare.

December 16, 2005

ROBBINS Sce Research (1998)
robbinssceresearch.com

ROBBINS continues democratic audit of Canadian election, with Mega Poll #2.

Highlights
-Less than one third of respondents have “absolute confidence” in the federal government
-Over 70% of respondents have ‘confidence’ in Canada’s political future
-It appears Canadians will vote to a similar percentage as last election or better
-Liberals have lost (.73%) of public support over past month, Conservatives down (1.04%), Bloc up (.32%), NDP ‘approximately’ even.
-Two-thirds of Canadians are not “frightened greatly” by Stephen Harper and Conservatives winning a minority government
-Respondents in older demographics more inclined to use charge cards than debit or cash over the holidays.

Question #1-Do you have ‘absolute confidence’ in your federal government? Yes- (28%); No- (72%); {Undecided- (08%)}

Question #2-Do you have confidence in Canada’s political future? Yes- (72.5%); No- (27.5%); {Undecided- (18%)}

Question #3- Are you absolutely certain you will caste your vote in Canada’s general federal election by or on Election Day January 23, 2006? Yes- (56.5%); No- (43.5%); {Undecided- (13%)}

Question #4- Which federal party do you support right now? NDP- (17.31%); Liberal- (31.39%); Conservative- (31.17%); Bloc- (13.95%); Green- (4.37%); Other- (1.33%); {Undecided- (11%)} *numbers statistically adjusted for population and gender, but not for voter turnout.

Question #5- Do you agree or disagree with this statement: The prospect of Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party winning a minority government on January 23, 2005 frightens me greatly? Agree- (34%); Disagree- (66%); {Undecided- (14%)}

Question #6- Over the holidays do you intend to pay for purchases with debit/cash or charge cards? Debit/Cash- (63%); Charge Cards- (27%); Won’t Answer- (10%)

The sleaziest and falsest point was made by Harper regarding Martin's alleged support for putting troops in Iraq. He quoted Paul "I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your sovereignty down!" Celluci's new book where someone was said to have said Martin would have Canadians training Iraqi forces. The sleazy lizard tried to make it look like Martin at one point supported invasion and flip-flopped. Nice try, creep. The Reformatories are evil.

In the last election Stephen Harper accused the Liberals of supporting child pornography. He never appologised.

This year he accused the Liberals of being tied to organized crime (infering mafia). He never appologised and has stated he will never appologise.

This is very revealing as to what type of person he is.

Ron do you say this stuff to just piss people off? Even the most conservative person isn't sick enough to actually, truly believe that crap.
Hey, I'm glad Iraqi's are voting now and all that.. BUT the human cost of this war is awful. 30,000 Dead bodies is not a success, it's tragic. And before you start with the "That's the price of democracy" crap remember it's not you who paid that price. Armchair soldiers are the funniest, you'd never put yourself or your family in harm's way like this, but you're perfectly comfortable with the famililes of others being in that situation.

The funniest thing, to me, of the debates was
Harper's goofy attempts at a demeanor makeover.

Some PR advisors evidently suggested he should try to shake his angry, stern image, and smile more!

Especially all through the French debate he apparentally was saying "cheese" mentally, over and over. His over-smiling came across as unnatural, a transparent attempt at image makeover.

He looked ridiculous.

"Iraq was a stunning sucess." That's a good one, Ron. Have you considered stand up? Seriously, you had me rolling on the floor. Excellent sense of humour.

Mel, keep talking, you are the best advertising we can get.
Harper accused Liberals od supporting child porn. Well maybe not, but they did lower the age of consent for homosexual acts to be performed on children from 16 to 14 years.
On organized crime, what else would you call the Libranos ( stolen phrase ) money laundaring scheme we just saw revealed by Gomery ?
It was crime to take taxpayers money from the treasury, funnel this money into Public Works and Canada Post, then write bogus contracts to Quebec advertising firms, then the money goes from these firms directly to The Liberal Party which they use as free booty to fight elections.
Does this sound fair ? I call it Cosa Nostra like.
And I don't get your aversion to The Fraser Institute. Their purpose is to mearly answer left wing rhetoric with math.
They simply cost out policies. You can't really argue with their conclusions, but you are anly mad about the subjects they analize.
You seem to have access to a secret agenda of The Conservatives, but I think you are just making it up as you go. SCARY, SCARY.
And talk about interfering with peoples lives, what do you call The Liberal daycare idea. Nanny state stuff just isn't as popular anymore.
Please carry on with your lies, they are so funny, we all need a good laugh once and awhile.

Having heard Michael Walker speak to small, exclusive business gatherings I assure you that ideology is their driving force, not math. That said, you'll also find them occasionally making some rational points that fly in the face of, for example, Harper's cynical GST reduction ploy. The FI is a government subsidized, non-profit "think tank" and therefore their mandate is to deal in ideas, not math. But I'm sure you knew this.

Innocent people by the thousands have been MURDERED in Iraq and you have the nerve to refer to it as a sucess?
Bush and Cheney and the other neo-con creeps should be in shackles awaiting war crime trials. I hope that swine comes by me so i can make a citizens arrest. (their spyin' on their own citizens now by the way. Heh thats just like stalinist russia and nazi germany. Great societal role models!!)
Oh and by the way harper really blew it last night ha ha!! The CBC, godbless em, sabotaged lizard eyes with that lesbian question. I'd say they earned their billion on that one!
Harper also just said on the radio that there should be mandatory jail sentences for DRUG USERS! Oops! I guess anyone who partakes in the holy weed better get off there butts and make sure scotch swilling hypocrit and his tight-ass, drinkin' drivin, cohorts dont get even close to the pm's chair.
If like the filthy republicans, they somehow manage to steal the election (they probably arent sophisticated enough) I have a feeling there might be civil war in our country.
Oh one last comment. John Reynolds nearly lost in west-van/sunshine coast last time and he's not even running this time. Since this riding has way too many rich evil pricks too ever elect NDP I suggest every one that doesnt want to hand over our beautiful country to murderer bush and planet raping corporations, and eveyone who wants to smoke a joint without geTtin busted down like it was the f'in fifties again, get out there and vote for that liberal dude-blair wilson. Atleast he looks like he mighta had a toke or two before. (or atleast he woudnt put me in JAIL if i did!!!!)

No-one should forget the lesson of the BC Liberals. When the folks here were looking for a way to spank the NDP, they asked the Libs, and Campbell in particular for some assurances that they wouldn't carry out the more horrible threats they had stood for in the past.

They swore they had changed. They swore they would never sell Hydro, never sell BC Rail, never gut social programs, never give away our infrastructure and heritage, paid for every cent by us, our parents and their parents.

Hell, I remember the lying ratbag standing erect in front of a camera one day and humbly declaring that they knew, they'd heard the voices of the people of BC when they said they did not want all these things to happen, and Liberals pledge to listen to these voices. Then he listed our greatest fears and said specifically that they would not do them. Child and family welfare, elder care, Hydro and the railway, public property all safe if only we send the evil NDP the message they so richly deserve.

And we bought it. Poor saps that we were. It was all, every single word, a pack of baldfaced intentional lies, designed to deceive, to get elected at any cost. And the minute they were, they betrayed every promise they made, and acted as if they couldn't think what in the world everybody was so surprized about.

Harper is cut from the exact same cloth. All these pretences that he's not the same fanatical guy, dedicated to forcing the rest of us to comply with his and his allies nastiest personal convictions, that he was before he had this shot at power, all that is absolutely false. And if we elect these people we will get everything we fear most.

Immediately.

jester, innocent people have been MURDERED in Iarq. I know you are talking about before the invasion.
I choke up when I think about the happiness the invasion has brought to the Iraq people.
If you met an Iraq national with a purple finger in your neighborhood ( and they are there in the hundreds ) would you be able to look them in the eye and tell them you don't support the success over there ? That you wish things stayed the same as they were under Saddam ?
Is there no limit to you cruelty and disregard for life ?
Bush has more passion for people in his fingernail, than you and a hundred of your freinds. You must be evil to have wanted these people to live under the threat of torture and rape that they experienced under the Bath Party.
You must be sick if you believe that.

Heh speakin of gordo I see is wife Nancy up in Squamish all the time now! But you know what? I never see gordo. Hey buddy thats no way to take care of your women. You know since you're sposedly MARRIED and all you could atleast pay a conjugal visit once in a while!
OR maybe there's somethin that we don't know about goin on. I can't imagine what though cuz muck-raking, bottom-feeding, arab-baiting canwest goebell would have surely reported it right?!? I mean their high journalistic standards didn't preclude them from stickin their excrement covered beaks into gordon wilson and judi tyabji?'s "personal" matters.
Ya know what, I'm just goofin' around!

Screw it, nobody is this full of crap on accidentally. You must be nuts.

Hmm, funnny I'm white and work in Public Works...come to think of it... most of my co-workers were white.

Gay Marriage? What do I care? For a guy who blowshard about freedoms all day long you sure are concerned with limiting the freedoms of others that don't affect you.

That's "Worked" past tense in Public works

Ok ronny i tell ya what.
Theres all sorts of evil bastards all over the world. Lets put OUR money where OUR mouths are and join up with the bush anti-evil dictator, end to global repression brigade and fight these evil bastards together. (we'll be just like George Orwell and Erest Hemmingway!!)
I'm not jokin. When Indo re-invaded Timor again bent on another genocidal rampage I phoned my mp, john reynolds, and demanded that Canada intercede AND that I would be the first to volunteer. If I got shot in the face or my legs were blown off it didn't matter cuz it was worth dying to stop that.
Ofcourse reynolds, a big bush supporter, never did get back to me on that one. Luckily the oz went in and put a stop to it.
Oh and by the way, and with the undeniable fact that saddam is a bad dude aside, wasn't bush et al's justification for the invasion the "imminent use of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons" ?
remember the "smoking mmushroom cloud and mobile anthrax labs" and all that stuff?
I mean I'm just saying I'm a little confused.

QUERY:

Do you think that if we just ignored [...Insert Tyee poster of your choice], that he/she might just cease to exist?!

No, rats don't just go away

I mean, it's really hard to believe that Ronnie is serious, and not just some kind of agent de provocateur plant. He's a really dangerous looney, but he does provide some comic relief on occassion.

Ronnie, says, " I choke up when I think about the happiness the invasion has brought to the Iraq people."

I mean, "Mein Gott am Himmel!" He's got to be joking. Tell us you're just practicing here to be a stand up comic. Even Ronnie can't be this stupid.

"Wrong again, honey. He is."

Ron, seems that Iraq is a great place. Why don't you head over there and spread the word?

For a while, I compared their neckties. Layton, Duceppe, Harper each wore a striped necktie and a blue shirt under their black jackets. Martin's shirt was white and his necktie was my favourite colour: red. But also a black jacket. However, the best windmilling: Paul Martin. Worst worried eyebrows: Paul Martin. Best mustache, Jack Layton, wrote BC Mary.

Too funny. I do the same thing during bad movies. :-)

The Cons can spin and lie as much as they like but they can't change these FACTS:

after 12 years of governing by Liberals from the point of view of many other countries WE HAVE THE MOST ENVIABLE ECONOMIC SITUATION OF ANY G8 NATION. NO DEFICIT. LOW INFLATION. LOW UNEMPLOYMENT. HIGH LITERACY AND NUMERACY. HIGH LIFE EXPECTANCY. BUDGET SURPLUSES.

WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE WANT TO THROW THIS GOVERNMENT OUT IN FAVOR OF SOME CANADA-BASHING, PRO AMERICAN, PRO ISRAEL CREEP WHO SAYS HE IS GOING TO COMPLETELY CHANGE THE WAY WE ARE GOVERNED?????? BECAUSE A MEDIA MONOPOLY WHO WANTS IT TO HAPPEN HAS BEEN FEEDING US PROPAGANDA TO ACHIEVE THAT RESULT (papers, tv and radio) Just goes to prove if you hear something often enough and long enough you start to think its true.

Liberal with NDP are the best combination for Canada.

This Government should be thrown out because they are a destructive force that has stolen the democratic process from our elected MP's to the PMO.
These Liberals are not intrersted in democracy, but are obsessed with power.
They only represent the Eastern Liberal intelligencia. It's like The Torono NDP.
They are both a recipe for disaster for Canada.
Canada can survive this if we elect The Senate and encourage free votes as The Conservative Party is promoting.

Ron: I agree with you, this government should be thrown out. But I'll disagree with you on replacing it with any of the clowns we saw on Friday.

Ron, the age of consent for females is 14 the legislation you are talking about made it the same for males.

Interesting, you don't here the conservative saying both ages of consent should be raised.

Dear rebel, We also have people dying of exposure on our city streets, the highest child poverty, exploding homelessness, four censures from the United freaking Nations of all people, that I heard about, condemning our treatment of women, children and aboriginals. Governments profoundly influenced by foreign special interests. Governments who make very free with the tax money they're supposed to hold in trust.

Accountants are like statisticians. They can prove whatever they're paid to prove from any given set of books. You want to know what's really going on, you have to look at the actual outcomes.

I agree life in Canada is very enviable-- for some. When it's just as enviable for all, I'll buy your assertions.

Much better result--NDP minority with Liberal support. Martin loses his seat for stupidity. ('I dinn't know nothin. I wuz just the finance minister')

We really need to train up some decent opposition in this country. The only way to do that is shackle some talent to a coach and let them make their mistakes for a while.

Oh, and it should be somebody trustworthy and sane, I think.

Bailey

I appreciate your comments - Harper sure will not help the homeless - he wants to throw everybody in jail for life - like the U.S. have 40 million people in jail (where does all the money come from for the jails and immense military he wants to build?}

As for the accountants - you are absolutly right and remember how the start of the Liberal downfall wasfrom an accountant Sheila Fraser and her over zealous descriptive words which are not supposed to be use in that inflamatory way by an Auditor General. Of course the Conservatives rewarded her by sending a truckload of thousands of dollars of red roses and now are promising her practically unlimited powers if there are elected. Think that one over.

I was going to vote Layton but if he is helpful in getting Harper in by his constantly bashing Martin even though I understand his strategy I will never forgive him. Right now I'm undecided - I'll wait a while. Time to go listen to Cross Country Checkup the best radio show of the week!

pls excuse mistakes - in a hurry.

Looks like the campaign is shaping up to be 'anyone but Harper'. That's a good thing. Harper has been whining about pension reform for the last decade, yet he has been strangly silent on the issue the last few weeks. I wonder why. Perhaps he knows his support will evaporate if he came clean and filled us in about how he no longer wishes to fund the pension program. He even forced his crew to vote against protections for pension funds from corporate bankrupcy. That's some family guy.

Reading all the Conservative supporters' piffle reminds me of watching Bahgdad Bob during the American invasion of Iraq. "There are no hidden agendas or extremeists in the Tory Party. NONE. Our immaculate leader, El Harper, would never allow such a thing. He is such a selfless person. I don't know what those other parties are talking about. Perhaps it is some other conservative party in some other country in some other world."

It's nice to see the Dons goodfellows squeeling in full panic mode as they realize that they can't get any of their excement to stick to Mr. Harper. That the Canadian public is slowly warming up to this praxtical leader.
Not ine tiny bit of scandal of any kind whatsoever has or will ever come up and they are starting to make things up as they go.
" Conservatives will sell off Canada Post ? Cut off seniors pensions ? Throw pot smokers into jail for life ? " It goes on and on and on, but nothing is sticking. Nothing can stick, Mr. Harper has no skeletons on his closet. His reputation is impecable.
But these poison tongues will continue the venom, but nobody is falling for it.
Even Paul Martin doesn't know how to handle Harpers credibility except by making more and more promises of how hw will waste our money.
I am certainly encouraged by these signs of desparation by his gang of criminals and fascists. We actually can call Martin a fascist by distorial actions and by criminally diverting funds from The Treasury to purposly and illegally stifle his opposition.
We are the only people who can change this dangerous government. We better do it now.

So many of the posters seem to be arguing about whether or not Harper is a liability, with those who would vote Conservative crying "It ain't so!". The very fact the argument is so widespread this time shows that he is. If Harper could win, he would have already done so. No Reform crazy is going to go over in the rest of Canada, so forget about it.

If the Conservatives want to form the government, what they have to do is vote NDP this time around. The Tories/Reform/Alliance/Concept/Progressive/nutsies will then replace Harper, and you will have a good chance, with someone else leading (are there no other possibilities?) of taking it in the next election.

Why NDP? Because you don't want a majority Liberal government, and if you give the NDP a lot of seats in the West, you will then prove to all and sundry (as per your oft repeated claims) that they are horrible pinkos who are just aching to force you into a gay marriage and that they are incompetent - assuming that you are correct. If you are wrong, then we'll have a good government.

It's a Win Win situation, folks!

R. Smiley

That is so funny and very likely true, R. Smiley! :-)

If Martin wins but has to form a minority government he will be gone before long and take Harper with him.

If Harper gets to form a minority he might be allowed to stay for awhile.

Now if we can figure out a way to get rid of both of them the day of election , hell I can certainly get to the polls. Actually I will get to the polls even if we don't get rid of both of them. It's our duty as free citzens to elect people to represent us and hopefully have them keep their hands off some of the money they collect. Don't vote, don't complain

Two of our grandsons were talking to us yesterday, over dinner. One is 16, the other is 24. Both had watched the debates, both figure if Harper ever gets power we will be at war as flunkies for the US of A. The older one asked us if we figured he might bring in conscription. He didn't know we had such a thing before. Never heard about in school he says. The young arn't supposed to be interested in politics. Well that isn't the case. The other two grandkids both have student loans thanks to the right of center provincial government allowing fees to rise to double. Yes they have jobs. Three out of the four vote, the young one has to wait awhile. They fear Harper a lot more than the BLOC. So we guess Martin will, even with scandals attached form a minority government. If Layton deals with him to prop him up, we might get some more social programs fixed. Programs that Mr. Martin cut up as Finance Minister way back when he didn't have an idea where the money was going.
Let the voting begin. The news folks are having problems as we watched a flt tire on some wagon used by the Liberals , over and over agin this evening on CTV and ther affiliates. My God was nothing else happening?

A disturbing thought occurred to me while reading the above posts. With all the naive remarks about another "Liberal minority backed by effective NDP support" as being the best way to achieve better social programs, etc., ..did anyone ever stop to consider that Martin & Co. could very quickly form an alliance with the Conservatives? These boys are both very much at home in the boardrooms of the nation, as well as with their U.S. counterparts. The smokescreen over health care concerns by both of them, among other social issues, is leading us down the wrong path. Ask about the (Liberal) government's involvement in the destruction of democracy in Haiti, for instance, using R.C.M.P. trainers to train goons to shoot down hundreds at a soccer stadium. This doesn't get much play in the media does it?

Dave A, the point about a German style grand coaltion of Liberals and Conservatives was made and I fully agree it definitely is a frightening thought. As for Haiti, the media cannot draw attention to it for the simple reason they spent their time during the coup cheering on the slaughter and attack on democracy, much as they sold the war on Iraq despite Canada's official position. I still don't understand why so many Canadians still think the Butcher of Baghdad was worse the butchers in Washington. I blame it on the media, CBC included.

As for the election, I too hope for that Liberal minority backed by enlarged NDP support. I do not like Martin or Layton, or trust them. As for Harper, I do hope the Tories do worse so that he will be dumped, not that I have much hope of new leader who is not an idiot. I get the odd Tory spam email and his agenda is not hidden and it certainly is not human rights friendly. As for the Greens I think everyone who votes for them needs to get involved in the party and help it to grow and develop, and not just cast a protest vote, or the Greens will go nowhere. This election is a waste, but for me all elections will be until we see electoral reform and stop treating politics like a horse race.

Finally, Stan I love you, but really the kind of corruption which really stinks in Canadian politics is not the kind the media reports on, it is about corporate control and a power elite. Yes we need big change in Canada, and the world, but we are not going to get it from any one of the Anglo three stooges. Really Stan what happened to your revolutionary instincts -- don't you remember Stonewall anymore?

Any working person even thinking of voting Liberal should step back and make sure you have thought this out. This Liberal bunch have boxed you into a revolving door of personal debt and insecurity. Your spouse and you are working so hard, and if you missed one paycheque you would be toast.
How did it come about like this. Well how it happened was that the thirst for your money by this organized crime family called the Liberals has set out to enslave, you, your spouse and indeed your kids into working endlessly to support their feinds and buddies that they have set up as Mandarins who's only interest is extracting your blood sweat and tears to advance their Eastern elite lifestyle.
It;s time YOU stopped this. Do not vote for the Liberals, they are as crooked as a three dollar bill.
Don't be a dupe advancing their corrupt cause.

What do you guys think Harper would do in a Minority government. He would know that he would be on the chopping blocks in probably less time than this current government, and would probably be reluctant to put together a budget before showing that he could get parliament to work. I could see him throwing out a free vote on gay marriage pretty early, knowing that it would be shot down, but at the same time being able to then drop the issue before a new election.

While he could pass accountability legislation fairly quickly, but I think very few aspects of his platform would fly in a minority house. He would probably need to create a grand coalition with the liberals for at least a budget, although he may be able to pass a minibudget containing limited tax credits for families, as long as kept business taxes outright. Not sure how much other damage he could do as a minority.

what a surprise this is: stan persky bashing the conservatives on the tyee. old, stale and boring. blather on.

Remember HRDC
-what about it?

Gun Registry
-Well... it was popular at the time.

Cancelling the Pearson Airport contract
-As mandated by voters...

Cancelling the helicopters we had on order
-These were thought a complete waste of money at a time when we had a gigantic deficit thanks to the Tories. It was made an election issue and Cretien in fact *campaigned* on the promise that he would cancel this contract. Maybe international security was made over 10 years later, but you can hardly critisize something like that in the luxery of hindsight.

Adscam
-See, this is enough for warrent a change in government. But common, put it into perspective, on an international scale it's small potatoes. Plus, Steven Harper sued the government himself because he wanted big business to be able to fund his campaigns. So you can hardly accuse the liberal party of being the ones cooberating with elists to cement their poltical powers.

No white males need apply to Public Works
-I work in pubic works, and my group consists of 4 white males and one asian female. Not quite homogenous, but this is just false on its face.

Gay marriage
-What about it? It's wrong? How? Besides, if you're going to be procilitizing this within your own definitions of "good and evil", you can hardly be the one to prattle on of the sins of the "nanny state".
_______
A list of "liberal failures" and this is the best you can do?

If you live in BC which I assume most posters do I just want to make some facts clear based on the last election.

It's a 3 way horse race in BC , voting NDP has a better change of beating a conservative than voting Liberal, you don't need to vote strategically in BC, about 12 ridings were decided on only a few hundred votes, mine
had the NDP lose by 160 votes.

I see the conservatives losing seats in BC and Saskatchewan and gaining say 4 seats in Ont. No gains in Quebec or the east coast, you have nothing to lose voting NDP in BC and everything to gain.

A little of topic, Bolivia just went left, that's Brazil , Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay, and Mexico soon is the mayor of Mexico city is allowed to run. We could learn allot of the south, Canada's next folks. Just keep talking about Bush and Harper as one person.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/12/19/bolivia-election051219.html

Once the population wakes up to the elitist class structure and they unite nothing can get in way. We need leaders that are not afraid to call a spade a spade, when was the last time you heard a national leader say that
the top 10% of Canadians controlled 2/3's of all its wealth.

Imagine millions of people running to the polls with energy and hope that they were actually able to effect meaningful change and that the results are going to be tangible. Imagine the power of someone who not
afraid to speak the truth. It's happening across the land and we are going to be swept up so get ready.

You know, Stuart, it is this that most amazes me about the neo-con capitalist. They actually never thought about all the unintended consequences of their policies. In their dream land, people just 'roll over' and become the underclass they feel everyone but a few are. This is one reason I do not admire their intellect.

Any fool can see that government is corrupt. I guess that is why so many fools post here with nothing more useful to say.

But this nagging "change" mantra? I am skeptical.

Or should I adopt the rabid rhetoric of the rightwing knuckledraggers who leech off this site and say: "I am sick to death of all this mindless talk of change?"

What change, particularly? A change for the worse — which Harper's Reformacons would be — is still change. Good enough for the illiterate likes of Fred & Ethyl and Everyone They Know. "Hey, I'm in a state of permanent rage — I say YES to jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire." These are the kids who did go play in the traffic just because their parents said don't.

"Climate change" is change, but it's just a bland way of saying we may drown in the rising ocean, or bake in the encroaching deserts, or choke to death on the gases that are displacing our air. "Regime change" is a similar weasly euphemism for illegal invasion of sovereign countries who don't play by our rules. "Spare change" is more than most people, working- or middle-class, have to show for our so-called booming economy. Which of these kinds of change is worth anything? Fred? Ethyl? Anyone who knows Fred and Ethyl?

Of course, I'd like to see some change around here too.

I'd like to see a democratic process substantially more engaging and effective than the quadrennial Pepsi Challenge we live with now. Democracy is not a purchase decision.

To the extent that we invest our hopes in the narrow democracy we have I'd like to see discussion of the policy merits of each party, rather than the macho name-calling we direct at leaders. (Macho is so last century.)

I'd like to see citizens who consider that democracy is a responsibilty they work at all the time in many arenas of public and private life, not just a form of scream therapy for their self-imposed alienation from their fellow citizens. (And if you let yourself be called a taxpayer rather than a citizen get back in your bedroom and count all the money in your mattress, this post is for adults only.)

Although I vote left, I'd like to see a potent conservative movement anywhere that wanted to conserve something, anything, rather than shred the environment and our civil society in pursuit of a radical wealth grab.

I'd like to read a site where respectful dialogue was the norm, where ideas trumped verbal abuse, where participants were open to the persuasion that makes concensus and community.

That would be a really nice change.

Thanks redrivergirl,

Politics in this country is actually quite pathetic, anything worth fighting for is no longer worth fighting for. Instead we watch the news and the polls ( polls are for strippers) we act as if life is going on around us and we are like the hockey spectators hoping for a good result, hoping for the underdog like we can do nothing
about what's happening. Not to undermine the good hard work of many activist minded folks but really the population has been numbed down into confusion and inaction. We have been tricked into this mind set that change is not possible and it's all BS etc than back to shopping we go. When in fact we have all the
power and refuse to use it, the working poor and the percentage of people who don't vote plus the progressive vote could carry this country for the next few hundred years in a political sense. But I don't understand why we don't want to fight , maybe were all afraid that we will lose a little nest egg we have
worked so hard to achiever. Maybe unions are afraid to unite and work together as in the teachers dispute because they are afraid of the consequences. who knows, we are just to comfortable and I guess we really
need things to get bad for many for anyone to act. King of a selfish way to live, we banded all movements together we would take over the agenda, use our collective power and resources and refuse to suceed like our enemies. F**ch the MSM and the pundits, take to the streets and struggle, use the courts and get active
working together. That's what struggle is about , it's about losing and losing and then winning, Bolivia has had the largest electoral victory for the left in the history of its nation. Why, because the leader spoke to the people and related to them, they took to the streets and had a constant presence and engaged people. While we were sleeping the entire continent is going left, we are the majority and can send shock waves threw the neo con agenda . In fact the fascist US
regime as been a good organizer.

In short when Norm Chomsky did a speech in LA many left wing intellectuals always ask him, What Can I Do?

His answer is quite simple , folks in Latin America never ask this question they just do it with little or no resources.

Just me says

"Any fool can see that government is corrupt. I guess that is why so many fools post here with nothing more useful to say."

I say who is the fool , the elitist government and corporations enriching themselves or the citizens who cry about it and fall into place in absolute obedience. Organized power will not behave unless confronted with organized
people. Lets all be more useful and not let the neo cons pollute this forum.

Sorry about the typos, busy day ,

An excellent article, Stan. One of the best I've seen in years. The only way I could improve on it is if someone paid me to look into the individual candidates running as Conservatives and or otherwise.

Yesterday, Stephen Harper announced that he wants to reopen the constitution and at the same time, give Quebec a greater voice internationally. This should get him some support in Quebec. A vote for Stephen is a vote for separation... not a surprising strategy when he was often seen dining in the tables of open western separatists, himself.

To the Editor

With Stephen Harper, our government will be back in business: back into the bedrooms of the nation and back into the battle for reproductive control over women's bodies. Same-sex marriage and abortion will return for more Parliamentary debate. At least here, Mr. Harper is clear and he won't take yes for an answer.

This mean-spirited agenda won't come cheaply either, in terms of time, energy and tax dollars. Is this who we are? Is this what Canadians really want from their government in such uncertain times?

Mr. Harper's call for a more moral nation is creepy and seems to owe something to the Republican handbook of Mr. Bush. It could be the call to our ruination because it so badly misses the point.

Gold and oil prices are soaring for a reason. Perhaps major market players know something that the rest of us can only sense in our bones - that there are lean days ahead from which no government can spare us. Bubbles burst. Winter is inevitable. The old wisdom says to get ready for it.

If indeed we are due, then this is a time for Canadians to pull together and prepare for our collective survival. More than ever, we will require sound judgement from our leaders. Recall how loudly Mr. Harper pushed for Canada to join the war in Iraq, that hopeless folly that might yet pull us in. Where was his judgement then?

Thank you, Mr. Chrétien, for your brave decision to keep us out of Iraq, Gomery aside. Thank you, Mr. Martin for our now-manageable debt and an economy running on all cylinders. No thanks, Mr. Harper, for your readiness to turn the screws on your fellow Canadians.

Bottom line... election coming, tough times ahead... who you gonna call?

Stephen McIntyre
Langley, BC
604-532-5320

The Liberal Party have stolen money from your pocket. They claim they 'only' got a paltry $1.14 million as a result of the Adscam criminal activities, out of the $250 miilion dollar cost put on this scandal.
They say they have payed back 'the money'.
Is there a cancelled cheque to see.
Imagine a cheque from The Liberals to the Govt. of Canada ?
I am suspect. And what about the rest of the money?.
The are probably using some of this past booty to finance the current election capaign..
With this condition of the Liberals being the party in power, appointing judges, writing cheques to themselves only to advance their undying dedication for self preservation, Canadians won't get the leadership they need now.
There is optimism in the way that we all have the power to change things.
Let's not endorse the staus quo.

This unnecessart election is costing taxpayers 300 million dollars thanks to the power hungery Mr. Harper.

The biggest scam in thie country is the media monopoly trying to control the vote!!

Dear Fred and Ethel?

I tend to concur with Skip... Have you read the following link;

http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/Haim%20Harari.htm

A view of the Arab World by an Arab, it's quite insightful.

M.