I'd also like to see public companies get their hands the hell out of the pockets of my government and stop stealing my taxes!

redrivergirl: ?????? little too much wine? Why don't you post your real comments when you're sober.

Consumer protection seems to have been whittled down to nothing - quite possibly because it is government above all that consumers need to protect themselves against.

We have obscenely high postal rates of $1.45 to mail a card overseas. No wonder many are crossing to the U.S. to mail their Christmas cards at 80 cents each.

A rare treat was a bit of consumer advocacy by columnist Brian Lewis: It's time to get Big Brother out of the dairy industry in which he claims that for too long, government-controlled dairy production has been ripping off the consumer. Many of us , of course, have known that for a long time. Nonetheless, it was good to see it mouthed in the MSM.

Good article, btw. Connecting with government is a special kind of misery indeed.

Don't be silly pekes. Or, do you really not know how to use a phone book?

Canada always had good gov't. The ugly myth from south of the border is part of a big scam to line the pockets of corporations specializing in 'gov't' services. Too the detriment of the citizenry. I'm sick of my taxes been misappropriated.

If this author truly means to look into the future a book by Authors James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Moog titled The Soverign Individual should be a must read.

Coordinated special interest groups could certainly make a mess of this kind of system if that sort of behaviour is not anticipated and awareness of its possible appearance built into the data tabulation of the system.

I'll give some "for examples" in related information systems. Misinformation planted by stock traders in the form of fraudulent articles appearing online to drive the price of a stock up or down. Email campaigns to MPs giving the impression of sizable resistence to a particular government policy where none really exists in her riding.

Wealthy interests could certainly take advantage of these kinds of data inputs if staff training and software programming is not provided to anticipate the possibility of misinformation and the means to detect it.

I think real-time data that makes government more immediately responsive to the needs of the public is useful. I also think it would be extremely useful to make this information publically accessable, provided it is available in an easy to understand format. In addition, determining what is relevant data is very important. Most government released data takes the form of various outputs (GDP, numbers of potholes fixed, etc.) but it says very little about the details of the outputs (all the potholes are being fixed in the neighbourhood of the city councillor who chairs the road repair committee). Finding ways to collect and disseminate useful information, rather than only having access to information that makes politicans and bureaucrats look good, will be a huge challenge.

Here in Ontario, we have not yet recovered from the Peterson government's crass political decision to move ministry headquarters to a variety of safe Liberal ridings. The case of the Registrar for personal records is instructive: it was moved to Thunder Bay, and only about 10% of existing staff made the move. Presto, a new organization without any history, continuity, or experienced staff. People are still waiting a year to get their birth certificates, more than a decade later. Sadly, governments are all to ready to sacrifice service delivery to citizens in favour of political patronage.

I've quite a bit of experience dealing with Vancouver city staff and I can honestly say that it has been mostly useful and good. In other words -- I got the information I needed, or the potholes on my street were fixed in a timely fashion or, someone in the system responded to my comments on a particluar topic. All one has to do is look on the City of Vancouver website for email addresses or in the Blue Pages for the phone numbers -- the departments are listed. If you contact the wrong person they are perfectly willing to point you in the right direction. Dealing with city government has been easy for me. It's at the provincial and federal level where I have felt not listened to.

Funny - Xtra (Toronto) just did a piece on Uffe Elbaek...Right out of the blue.

http://www.xtra.ca/public/viewstory.aspx?SESSIONID=8fe02976-8a8f-4dd1-8af4-2ab9dd0eb99f&AFF_TYPE=2&STORY_ID=1167&PUB_TEMPLATE_ID=5

Maybe KaosPilots & any future North American spinoffs are genuinely onto a new thing. I get a sense that they're tapped into style, marketing & promotion. Would you really want a '311' gimmick determining local policy? Not sure I buy it - I'll reserve judgment on the substance until I see more of it.

Intriguing idea tho - Thanks for the good read.

redrivergirl,

I heartily agree. I believe, for we who pay, there are many abuses in the area of research and development - with much regurgitation of the former and a trickle of products from the latter.

Hi redrivergirl!

"Canada always had good gov't."

Let me think about that statement. hmmmmmmmm

think think think think....hmmmmmmmmmm

I dunno...golly - you sure say provocative things.

For the record, big nasty corporations don't squander taxes. In fact, they do just the opposite. They pay taxes - far more than little ol' me 'n you. For the record, governments waste your tax dollars - they waste corporate tax dollars too. In fact, IMHO governments mis-manage practically everything they do. Let's think of some of the things governments manage where their competence has been questioned: health care, public education, judiciary, immigration, national defense,foreign policy, fiscal policy, monetary policy, indian (oops) affairs, fisheries, human resource development, interprovincial affairs, language...I gotta get back to work here.

The point of the article is that perhaps...PERHAPS government services could be better administered...PERHAPS there could be new thinking, methodologies, systems. MAYBE some things run by governments could be improved! I like that suggestion!

As for your suggestion that public companies are stealing your taxes...well, that notion is utterly preposterous. And you're smarter than that.

Geez some of you folks are suspicious. Sure, government hasn't been great at fostering trust but I don't see "311" as a "gimmick" at all. And you know what? Even if it is an evil plot by governments to track trends and determine local policy, so what? There's nothing wrong with them using the information to provide better services. And judging from the article it sounds like the new system has been welcomed by the citizens of NYC. Imagine that... government providing easier access to their services. Dirty buggers!

canuck_cougar

That's okay if workers are taken from the existing departments. I don't expect the Public Service unions to necessarily agree, but I don't want a huge bureaucracy heaped on the existing bureaucracies.

Just curious.

One two three four, yeah, the fourth post. It followed three posts that I refer to (in the nicest way) as one-liners.

My post was specific in it's three complaints
re: consumer advocacy, postal costs and government control of dairy products.

It is as though that post appears only on my own monitor. Please say it ain't so.

If The Tyee has an "ignore" function operating, I'm certainly not aware of it.

Would it be to the advantage of the private sector if the public sector was actually effective at responding to its citizens needs?

I must agree that in most cases now, the "slash&burn" approach of the neocons is highly justified. I wonder if some of the high level bureaucrats working in the public sector are actually paid to act so incompetent by the private sector seeking the lucrative PPPs. I tried last year to deal with the CRTC and my experience was worth a Faulty Tower episode.

This article was a breadth of fresh air IMHO. Funny to still observe the same old stale air in response to a breadth of fresh air.

While it's true that government wastes a lot. contracting out will only work so far.

take hospital cleaning services. government now pays the contractor about $17.00/man hour for the service. the old pay scale was about $25 including benfits. But the worker is only getting $10 now not $18. So he only reinvests almost half of what he did back into the economy. $7/hour now goes overseas never to be seen again. And the government breaks about even; if you don't include spin off from those wages being put back into the economy. Their overall savings is about $8/hr. However, has the workers wages go up the contractor asks for more for the service and you start to lose money overall. When the effect becomes noticeable I'm not sure.

The benefit politically is that any strike is no longer a public service strike but a private one. How much press did the recent HEU strike against Sudexco garner? If HEU had struke against the Liberals it would have gotten as much coverage as the teacher's strike.

And that's the real reason to contract out. Less hassle for the Liberals. They don't look bad even if it's the same service that ISN'T being provided.

I'm just trying to figure out where this KaosPilot is coming from all of a sudden.

When I saw it parachuted into Xtra a couple weeks ago, I scratched my head. It was accompanied by a textbox on "the urban gay agenda" and managed to somehow link public gay sex, Jane Jacobs and Irshad Manji's revisionist "creative jihad" all in one incoherent pastiche .

Now I'm wondering if someone's been sharing notes.

It's great that there's a renewed interest in the urban agenda. We've been pushing for this for quite some time. But I'm getting warning bells - say it ain't Strauss again!

But most important of all: why do all the KaosPilot teams look like they all belong in the 9 or 10 category on HotorNot.com?? I'm getting visions of Logan's Run 2005

...I'm totally not joking! Is this a modelling agency or a business school??:

http://www.kaospilot.dk/docs/team.asp?id=7

http://www.kaospilot.dk/docs/team.asp?id=11

http://www.kaospilot.dk/docs/team.asp?id=12

Maybe all Danes look that way. Do I have to choose just one??

[okay, sorry - I'll stop now]

gaulois,

Rather Machiavellian but you may be on to something - just as Management will attempt to lure away the best, brightest and most effective from the Union team.

Interesting article. I like the idea of public entrepreneurship, that is, of public employees occasionally taking a risk in pursuit of providing better service, or doing their job better, etc.

The general crankiness against government is often because it does one of its jobs supremely well. That job is to slow down some of the momentum and foolishness of the private sector. If it weren't for governments cautioning and retarding the private sector, most of the Fraser Valley would be under pavement by now, not to mention a zillion other examples of the private sector's rush to riches, often exporting significant costs to public mop-up.

That being said, where government holds a monopoly on a service, I think it's obligated to provide that service reasonably, efficiently, equitably, etc. Insofar as it sometimes fails to do so it deserves criticism. Perhaps some of the same virtues mentioned in the paragraph above leak over and become vices in the service area mentioned in this one. Still, the self-congratulatory declarations by private sector fans about how so many government services would be so much more efficiently run if they were run by private companies are largely bunk. They would be more efficiently run only if they were not constrained by some of the same requirements in place for public managers.

How do private schools manage successfully (at least the success stories that we hear about--we don't hear about the failures, though they certainly exist)? By selecting their clientele, something public schools cannot do. Why are private health clinics likely to be efficient and effective? They'll be serving wealthy people who, coincidentally, are likely to understand treatments, health regimens, prescription instructions better than many members of the underclass, not to mention have generally better nutrition, hygiene, etc. What a surprise! People undergoing private health care get better faster! These kinds of distinctions could be found in just about every area.

Still, creating social structures that encourage innovation, service, a culture of excellence and so on is a good idea. Perhaps the author is on to something.

There were some very good critical comments in the blogs above.

Thanks for a stimulating article and discussion.

I'm with redrivergirl on this one.

The last people I want having access to such stats is private industry. Here in BC we have seen the dangers of handing info like this over to the private sector to collect.

It does pretty much whatever it wants with that info, including giving it to a foriegn government, despite so-called confidentiality clauses that are worthless once the info is in the US.

Pekes, you have got to be kidding with your claim that corporations don't waste tax dollars.

Corporate Canada is on the hook for billions in unpaid taxes, which are used to overcompensate fat cats and drive down any real measure of productivity in this country.

It is, in fact, corporate welfare that does nothing to encourage real competition or real productivity and only continues this incorporation through bankruptcy dependancy on state subsidies.

Of course these are the same business leaders who are demanding Canada simply cave into every sleezy financial hit the U.S. can toss at Canada.

One gets the impression, these corporate Canadian heros are simply too comfortable with themselves, but then when you can avoid taxes until you go bankrupt, well...

Anyway, to get back on target, I think McLeod's piece is a good first column and I certainly look forward to more.

For too long municipal governments have been more or less ignored, yet their influence and impact on citizens is often far greater and far more direct than other governments.

One more reason to link into Tyee.

The unmistakable vibes are there.

Government workers comprise a large segment of organized labor and when legitimate concerns are raised over taxation it should not be interpreted as an attack against Public Service Workers or to be anti-organized labor.

Most in civilized society acknowledge the necessity of taxes but look for less waste, wiser spending and fairer remuneration between workers and administrators.

It is hoped that any worker within government would blow the whistle on waste or improper spending as soon as anyone on the outside would do so, on its discovery.

Maybe we should outsource our government, to New York. Heck, if they can already handle nearly 30 million people, whats another 30 million to them.

But seriously, the interesting part of this article is that it shows a clear contrast between two business minded governments. What Bloomberg has done with New York, and what Campbell has done with BC are similar but sperate. Bloomberg has restructure New York to utilize technology to run government better, as a result efficiencies can be found in the system and ultimately both the taxpayer as well as the service user have benefitted. He has brought what private sector does best to the public sector.

However, in BC, we have taken on the mindset that because the private sector can do it better, we will allow them to administer our public services. The Liberals also mandated departmental reductions, prior to finding the efficiencies, which provided us with some initial cost savings, but now our provincial governments budget has ballooned right up to where it was before. The difference is that now various public services are administered by companies like accenture, and while internally the departments may benefit, as a whole government functions no less smoother. And rather than developing or acquiring the technology to unify health services with social services, and others, we now have seperate divisions which cannot and will not share data. So we now have a distributed enterprise without distributed information. (Which is opposite of business which relies on distributed decision making with centralized information). Had the BCL's thought more about actually making government more effective than fighting with Labour and trying to undo NDP policy, they may have actually got us a lot further. But alas, Bloomberg has the ability to spend his own money to reach the end, so he doesn't have to pander to special interests the same way we do up here.

For some of the commentors who mentioned that all you have to do is read the phone book, alas, have you ever tried to really get through on the blue pages listings. Sure its great if you need to find a number, but how about when you don't know what department deals with what, and unlike the 311.. well, I'm glad English is my first language.

But the key part is shared information, and its value to all of us. Its not personal information as much as trends. Its why Walmart is the largest company in the world, because it uses data efficiently. Because it controls its own information down to the dot. It can redirect products across a zillion stores to maximize its sales. However, when we outsourced to accenture, we haven't got control over our own data in such a way as we needed it. We may have recevied a fixed cost on our services, but what we don't have is the ability to use that information and reorganize our divisions how we need to.

Dan, surely you are not saying gov't services are difficult to access. They may be now with the Campbell and Martin wrecking ball style of gov't in power at this time, but really. Really, it is about shrinking gov't to nothing. Hasn't anyone looked over the border lately and see what that approach has gotten them? Don't drive over the Seattle viaduct, my brother.

Their too low tax base and their attitude towards gov't is translating into third world conditions. It's an experiment already tried and boy is it failing. I can't believe how much California has declined the last decade. California used to be as well looked after as Canada.

Accenture is always in trouble and getting fired from the various states. I think Colorado just fired them a few weeks ago. Come on.

And, MSP is doing so well after laying off so many civil servants and then later contracting out. Yes.

No, Wallmart is the largest company in the world because of its predatory and exploitive practices. I'm sure it helps that they have a handle on their business operations, but that hasn't made them the biggest.

James, my ears perked at that particular line as well (i.e. 'As long as 311 is used in an uncoordinated way by citizens'). The author sees it too.

It could change the face of lobbying 4ever...I foresee heated & ultimately self-interested debates over interpretation of data, rather than over the merits of actual policy. Once the various organized interests begin to mobilize, the average citizen is totally marginalized in such debates. Anyone who wants to join the fray as a credible participant will need formal training in statistics.

1-800-OCanada never functioned in the manner of the 311 service described in the article (although I'm glad that commitment to this service has been renewed after senior leadership at Communications Canada were implicated n the sporsorship scandal). It made things easier at tax time, and undertook special communications projects related to new government initiatives on a regular basis (for example, when the gun control registry was set up) - but the information flowed mostly one way. It was as much an instrument of propagation as it was a service to the public.

I still find it an interesting idea though. I'm just wary of vesting decision-making authority in some central database containing arcane numerology that the average voter will not be able to access, let alone understand.

Why do we pay $1 a month for 911 in the North and we don't get 911? Is it like how we only pay for overnight couriers?
Or are they collecting it so Telus can get paid before they deliver? Know what's funny? In our town you can call to order ADSL, give the street address of their central office and you'll be told it's not available in that area..... We're supposed to pay them to dispatch an amulance in an emergency when they can find themselves?

Redrivergirl, I could dance with you on Walmart all day with you, but the bottom line is that the company can have "predatory and exploitive practices", but without the right plan and the right information it means nothing. Regardless of your personal anti-wallmart biases, it doesn't take away from the fact that the company is mentioned as a case study in almost any business book on how to create a great company. Even what it does wrong it does right. But alas, I guess that's not Chomsky's typical subject matter.

Also.

You can go all day and tell me how small government is a bad thing, and I'll tell you that 90% of essential services should be delivered at a municipal or regional level, but as the power of taxation lies with the federal and provincial governments, we have multiple levels of bureacracy working redundantly and ineffectively. Which means all of us productive members of society pay more, and everyone gets services that are not up to par. However, you don't slash first and build afterwards, you measure things like utilization in a transparent way and you put resources where they are needed. Government should be no bigger than it needs to be to be effective, throwing more bodies and numbers in can often mean things take longer to do.

As for saying government services are difficult to access. I can't even find the bluepages anymore. So if my internet ever went, I'm screwed. Although sorting through the dozen pages of ministries used to be fun and trying each one until you got the correct number is equally annoying. And god darn it, when you finally find a number that gets close, only to find your problem is in a different jurisdiction used to be fun. But my personal problems with the phonebook are besides the point, this article is about making government accessable as well as responsive. And nothing it either the NDP, Liberal or Conservative plan seems to point in the right direction. So where do I find the whistle blowers hotline?

Hi Allan!

Give me one example of a corporation being "on the hokk for unpaid taxes". Please - just one example.

Redrivergirl: WalMart is not the largest corporation in the world, by measure of revenue, earnings, or market cap.

One of B.C.'s major dailies, today, gives the estimated cost of a proposed 311 service - something not discussed in Tyee's article.

This is not to oppose the service.

Though my previous posts - none of which have been responded to - introduced other aspects to the subject those posts were certainly not "off topic" since the concerns raised, if referred to a 311 service, would undoubtedly be forwarded to an ombudsperson, if such an office existed - and in the absence of specific departments relating to the matters raised.

ps

Also, one might consider the service will be vulnerable to attempts to make it less effective, as has occurred with the Access to Information Act, despite all the fanfare at its introduction.

Well, I certainly agree with you about this. I suspect we differ on what services are necessary.

Costco is the company I'd put in those text books as a 'great' company.

And, the mess Telus created when the contracted the phone book out to people who obviously don't understand phonebooks isn't the gov't's fault. Gosh, could they have made the phone book more redundant? You're not alone with the phone book. Having said that, I've never had a problem accessing gov't services when required. And, if we scratch the surface, my bet is that we'd find the 311 deal is a yet another way to transfer our taxes to a private company.

Oh, let me clarify, I don't buy the statement that throwing more bodies makes it worse because I don't buy the myth that the civil service was/is overstaffed. I do agree with this,

That must be it! Discussion relating to matters regarding feeding off the public teat may induce self-censorship.

In my several previous posts on this thread, three have responded to points made by redrivergirl, canuck_cougar and gaulois.

I don't know whether a head game is at play that involves deliberate avoidance of my posts (I don't believe so many would be involved in such self-absorbed rudeness)The other alternative? My posts, starting with post#4 are not appearing.

Can anyone, including The Tyee, please enlighten me?

Hey Skeptikool,

Just want to say, I'm not sure what's up with the screen. For me, I am not deliberately ignoring your posts - just don't have anything of merit to contribute.

Take care. Redrivergirl

Hmm, strange. My screen seems to have some weird characters showing up on it, can't quite make it out but it seems to be some lame attempt to get attention from the one person in Canada who hasn't adopted e-mail... boo hoo, a buck 45 a letter, does that recognition make you feel better.

Pekes: Walmart is the biggest company in the world, edging BP for 1st place with some odd 250 billion in revenue. In order of size it goes Walmart, a whack of gas compaies, and then a whack of car companies.

REdrivergirl: I'd go to Costco in a second over Walmart, but Costco doesn't approach anywhere near the scale of Walmart, and Sam's Club, Walmarts wholesaling division is bigger than Costco. Costco is actually more profitable per square foot than Sam's but not nearly as large. Walmart has one of the most advanced computer systems, which allows it to track sales on every item at each of its stores in realtime. And each product sold through them now have RFID tags. Which means if one item is sellign slowly in a region, they can know instantaneously and make decisions on the fly as to products and marketing decisions. Walmart has two things going in its favour, extremely efficient business practices as well as its ability to bring cheaply produced goods to market. (which are often crap.) It has expanded by both saturating markets and buying out existing chains. The management side you can't fault. Most of the practices people hate walmart for are a result of its global dominance, and its methods of buypassing local objections. It puts small companies out of business because they can't compete on price. However, where others can compete is on quality and service, and other chains such as Target are going head to head against Walmart and winning by educating customers to pay more for a better experience.
----------

However, Red River Girl, while I generally seem to fit in more with right wingers and capitalists, I don't think I probably disagree with you on what services are needed. Its who administers and delivers them is what I usually see is the problem. I don't think the feds (fisheries, health) should be doing what the provinces can do better, and I don't think the province should do (social services) what the municipalities can do better. And tax should go directly there. Some services benefit from economics of scale, while others benefit from proximity of delivery. As well, I may differ on public versus private delivery of services, but to a point. I don't think the government should run liquor stores, but I also think ICBC is more effective as a public company for autoinsurance (only due to its involvement in road safety and in avoiding excessive litigation).

I already love this series if its going to look at comparative systems, and how they apply.

dangrice:

WalMart WAS the largest, by measure of revenue - last year. Currently a handfull of big oil firms will beat their revenue numbers.

In any event, revenue is only one yardstick.

dangrice.com,

With a litle more thought, your infantile post, that I quote above would not have been submitted by you. Clearly, this is coming to you via the email function.

You were not one of the three posters that I mentioned in my later message - and the postal issue was just one of three issues raised in the 4th post.

People still like to get Christmas cards to place on mantlepieces or hang on strings across the room, even though they may be able to send and receive email. My few cards were mailed from Canada but a retired, low-income acquaintance mailed her 50 cards from the U.S.

Whether gouged by government or business, you may not mind being shat upon, but some of us just don't roll over. If one speaks up about such abuse, it's called consumer advocacy. And it serves all - even the undeserving.

pekes, I thought you would never ask.

Check out Bell Canada Enterprises.

Last figure I saw was $2.3 Billion.

allan:

What are you saying about BCE? that they had a $2.3B loss? So what? Maybe you're thinking about CIBC and their Enron settlement.

Please clarify

There is hope for continuous process improvement in government, just as in the private sector. Why not, and our democracy needs it!

Innovation in the provision of government services is every bit as widespread as corporate change management. It is merely harder to see, since the private sector is far larger AND advertises better!

Not in any way an apologist for government, I would argue that Canada has a LONG way to go, both perceptually and in reality.

Markets are great for impossing discipline and spuring innovation. Government services, however, defy efforts at market regulation, not the least because of imperfect information (health care) and monopoly (roads).

Governments have a special responsibility to ensure open and transparent operations, because its services are so complex and must serve all "customers."

Many have tried to bridge the gap between these two sectors, either through outsourcing or privatisation, but the moral hazards are huge.

When government and private business go into business together, they combine the infinite revenue power of one with the infinite profit motive of the other. Only a fully open bidding and contracting process will protect the taxpayer's wallet.

Public-private partnerships (P3s) are a particular challenge, one the public AND THE MEDIA need to watch like hawks.

In BC, it appears that P3 contracts have long been secret, and for no apparent reason, other than graft and corruption. Whether the Bennett Bridge, Abbotsford Hospital, the Golden Ears Bridge, or the RAV Line, none of the details regarding public payments to private contractors are available, including even the correct total amounts.

No wonder redrivergirl (and others) complain about taxes here!

We are about to see the most expensive bridges, hospital, and subway in the world built here in BC. Our government is handing the private sector a blank check in all of these projects. Notice that AFTER the selection of the winning bidders, costs in all four projects have escalated 40% to 60%.

Yes, there is something wrong here. Very wrong. BC is becoming a bad place for business, unless you are on the take. Small business innovation is at risk, and the best and brightest still flee to the US for its far lower taxation.

What is more frightening, the media do not even seem to notice, let alone investigate. The Fourth Estate here has merged fully into the corporate realm, casting off its historical role in the development of democracy and using its monopoly power to steer your tax dollars.

Yes, two hundred years of historical progress in the extension of democracy appear to have come to a screaming halt in BC.

No wonder no one is voting.

Well, that is obviously not the best response. So, vote for yourself, and put your honesty to the test by running for office.

You may save your democracy, your country, and 35 million wonderful people.