Of course, when we scratch the surface, the picture of the "globally competitive market economy" appears.

All the benefits go to the "winners" and the rest can go to hell. What these masterminds are unable to understand is that children are human beings with myriads of buried talents, most of which will stay buried forever, because they'll never have the chance to bring them out into the open. Againa, because of the market economy pushing them into dead end occupations.

Those who excel in lower grade schools very seldom turn out to be great minds later in life. When we look at the biographies of some of the greatest inventors and thinkers, many of them were very poor school performers, yet bloomed later, while the former, good students were pushing papers .

As life becomes more and more complicated, there's more need for special educational programs to bring the best out of children for their future lives and the benefit of society. This means attention to the individual, which can not be accomplished with tests and exams. My pet hates.

Based on many years of personal experience within my own circle, the passing of tests means absolutely nothing, either in schools, or later in life. I was always lousy and received poor marks in tests, but could solve the same problems easily in real life.

Never could learn languages in school, but picked them up easily by exposure, when I ended up in other countries.

I don't know what the solutions are, but it is certain that they won't be solved by political ideologues, bureaucrats and accountants.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Excellent piece.
It strikes me that the one of the fundamental flaws in arguing for unlimited local school district autonomy is the limits and vagueness of school districts' mandates.
Their responsibility is providing a quality education to as many students as possible with the resources available, which makes it tempting to decide that money spent on special programs or instruction for a few could be better used elsewhere.
They don't bear the consequences, financial or other, for kids who fall by the wayside. So initiatives like an excellent program for girls at risk that was running here in Victoria get squeezed.
But the provincial government is in a position to make broader judgments. The consequences and costs, for the individuals and society, of abandoning some students are far greater than the costs of special programs to help ensure they have a shot at a successful life.
But it's not a school district's concern if students at risk move on to welfare, poor health and all the other complications of a life that starts out wrong.
Which makes a case for provincial targeted funding.

Wow Fiat lux and I come out on the same page here!

I think that, should we as a society decide that publicly funded education be something that we want; then the parents of the children should be the channel through which the funding should flow.

Yes, this means some sort of 'voucher system' (hated words by so many). Children that need the 'special needs' funding are better idenfitied and have those funds directed rapidly.

As Fiat lux says:

As life becomes more and more complicated, there's more need for special educational programs to bring the best out of children for their future lives and the benefit of society. This means attention to the individual, which can not be accomplished with tests and exams. My pet hates.

The attention to the individual cannot be performed in the current 'ancient industrial model' schools. The Teachers' union is the last group that would see their monopoly in this area broken up, therefore the Teachers' UNION is the last group that should be consulted on this. Teachers should be consulted, yes; involved in the re-design of the system, yes; leading the way, perhaps. THE UNION is in the way of changes of this nature.

Again, should we as a society decide that publically funded education is of value, the discretion and focus of that funding should go through the hands of the PARENTS, not some disconnected group that purports to advocate for the children when in FACT and LAW those groups have other reasons to advocate for.

UNION LEADERS and CURRENT SCHOOL SYSTEM officers must not be connected to the future learning processes.

The one more thing I would like to add is that children should NOT be educated to fill and go to where the jobs are, but the economy should be redesigned to permit people to do work in occupations they're most suited to by talent and temperament.

Yes, it can be done, because "human labour doesn't cost anything to an economy", therefore it should be developed to become the most important part of the economy. With the free creation of fiat money, the decision on where it should go should be done democratically, by the people, for their own and not for the benefit of the "markets". The abolition of the gold standards and bank deregulation could and should be used for beneficial and not for destructive purposes, as it is now.

If an economy can be designed to forcefeed the insatiable demands of the stock and money markets, it can also be redesigned to fill human needs. Some stockbrokers may leap out of windows, but then, if they don't give a hoot for human needs, why should humans serve their demands?

This would autmatically eliminate many of our illness, family breakdowns, subsance abuse and crime problems.

When I was in business in Vancouver, from 1957 to 79, the single, largest percentage of my professional customers were doctors and psychiatrists, phycologists. As I always had the habit to pick the brains of people in various occupations and professions, I had countless of hours of discussions with my customers through the years, and many were only happy to talk.

The one thought many of these doctors have been repeating time after time, even 30-40 years ago, when the situation was nowhere as chronic as it is now, was, that they estimated that up to 70% of all illnesses have already then been psychosomatic and stress related.

It must be far worse now, with vastly increased pressures and economic madness ruling the world. I firmly believe that this is one of the reasons why our medical services are collapsing under increasing costs.

The way they explained it, when people are stressed out, their subconscious minds force their bodies to break down to escape the stresses, even causing death, although, consiously they may not realizing it. This also happens to animals captured in the wild and put into zoos.

With humans this can be far worse, on account of the vast diversification and potential of human talents and our capability for abstract thought, animals don't have.

I'm not a medical or scientific person, but I think, there could be some valuable truths in this. There's no question in my mind that had we been staying in Vancouver, the stresses would have made me very sick, or dead, a long time ago. No stress, no illness. At least in my case.

Ed Deak.

Children with special needs are identified early and their assistance level (at least in Vancouver school district) is set for each year and reviewed periodically.

How would a voucher system handled by parents be an improvement?

Are you saying that every parent should have oversight over every spending decision? When did parents gain the magic ingredient for financial responsibility and why wasn't mine included in my last Visa statement?

Why not just fire all the teachers, administrators and school board staff in favor of live video linkage directly to the homes of students. If the video instructors get out of line we'll just outsource them to the overseas market. Just think of how much further your voucher dollars will go then!

Question: Are school boards really neccessay? Or are they a throw back to the olden days.

The province defacto, runs the schools and school boards really just take up space and money. In age of instant communication, there isn't really any need.

What this points to is the fact our school system needs a major overhaul to make it suitable for the 21st Century, sadly I do not see it happening.

The government did not have amcular degeneration. they knew exactly what would happen; they just hoped that the teachers would lay low and that parents wouldn't complain.

80% of all learning diabilities are genetically inherited. So you're asking the learning disabled to fight for the learning disabled. So the student is already at a disadvantage.

Emery Dosdall, deputy minister of education, spent $2million in legal fees as the superintendant on the Langley School Board fighting the first class size grievance for special needs in the province. The teacher who filed that grievance had 68 special needs students in her class for the two years it took to settle. Does any one believe Mr. Dosdall forgot about it when he was made DM? He knew exactly what administrators would do when the class size limits for non-enrolling teachers were removed. After all, it's exactly what he fought so hard for.

Right now the ministry is busy releasing money so that school districts can hire more teachers (assuming those 2600 laid off teachers are still in the province) and adjust class size and composition so that when they finally get around to releasing their survey numbers for the Education Round Table it'll look like the teachers were complaining about nothing. A great political coup for the liberals. ttoo bad the teaching profession will undergo another s...kicking. The overall public opinion is already so low that not a single university in BC could fill their education program this year. Seems the kids have finally figured out that the best way to avoid the abuse, political mess, loss of dignity is not to become a teacher at all. Remember the manta of the uninformed, "they knew what the job would be liek before they took it. If they weren't willing to spend all that extra time marking and suprevising after school activities they should never have become teachers." I guess someone finally listened.

good call Grumpy,

In Langley only $2800 of the $7000 that the ministry gives to the board gets to the school. All staff and teacher salaries, utilities and books have to come out of that $2800. If you need maintenance done the principal has to hire someone from the school board for $60/hr.

The board does budget for the inside of a school to be painted once every 22 years. Outsides get painted every 10 years. They replace the carpet in 25 classrooms a year. There are 900 classes with carpet so that's once every 36 years. My grandkids could be playing on carpets that I did when I was their age!

It's not that there isn't enough money it's that the game of poliitcs requires a buffer zone to take responsilbity for your inaction. I.e. a school board or health authority. give the money to the zone and tell everyone that it's really responsible for spending it. That way the politicos' hands are clean. But it costs us a small fortune.

From Michael Clift

If the 'knee jerk' reaction is to fire all the current staff, I do not; for one second; believe that such a thing would ever take place, and go to another 'single option' system then I would rail and fight against that also!

If your answer, as a parent, is to go to such a 'sourcing' option, then in a well-proportioned voucher system, this option would be funded with less $$$ (as it is an offshore system).

What I am saying:

Since I, as a parent, am often blamed for child problems.
Since I, as a parent of a child in the school system, am hit upon to supply more and more cash donations to a creaking and dilapidated public school system.

I want to control the funds, and direct them to where those funds will have the greatest impact upon the learning needs for my child.

For the other writer saying that all learning needs are genetically inherited, if the parents are so in need of learning assistance into their adult years, then those same learning deprived parents are going to have access to others whom will assist them in making responsible decisons regarding the children.

Unless you are saying that such a genetic situation requires some sort of 'cleansing' or 'purge' from our system?
If this is so I suggest that you 'seek and hail' some other nation.

I was wondering how soon the useless voucher system would come up in this forum. It is the argument of uneducated, illinformed and just plain anti education segment of society. It doesn't work. It destroys communities. It gives governments the ability to cut good public education to the bone and the detriment of families that can not write the cheques to make up for the lack of proper funding. But then some folks just seem to lack the ability to do the research.

Is this guy for real?

.

In the day in instant communications, I wonder if my need so many school boards. Private schools manage quite well without them.

Since BC is the only province with non-transferrable teaching certificates, there is a good chance that they are. If I say, have a teaching licence in Ontario, I can teacher everywhere but BC. If I have a BC teacher's certificate, I can only teach in BC. Another way BC unions practice exclusionary policies.

The Milton Friedman/Fraser Inst. voucher system has been introduced in a number of US schools with devastating results. In Canada about 1/3 of the population is functionally illiterate, in some US states, as in Florida, 70% of the university entrants need remedial reading classes.

Like the rest of the market economy theory, it is a disaster waiting to happen. When people are being considered "commodities" and "products", that's what they become.

Leaving the education of children completely in the hands of parents is also asking for big trouble, because parents have stars in their eyes and absolutely no idea of what their children's capabilities are and in many cases demand them to become something that's completely wrong for them.

Of course, parents should have a major input, but they also need expert guidance so they won't screw up the lives of their children completely with outlandish demands.

Ed Deak,

Ok Burgess, inform me.

I am willing to discuss the issue, as I am totally unsatisfied with the status quo.

The sort of Fraser Inst. voucher system is a single-value, parent-paid system. The way I understand it the $$$ is put into the parents hands.

The system I envision takes advantage of the modern technology, uses a number of electronic 'vouchers' with a variable value (with less paid for homeschoolers and less paid to those who choose systems of learning with less proven results). The system puts parents in charge of the direction of the funds, allowing those same parents to refuse the funds to those schools or systems that do not meet the needs of their children. This sort of system would have the effect of introducing some real competition among schools and some real consequences for those schools, systems, teachers, methods or other education options that do not perform and reward those that do.

For Burgess:

The education system as it is today is asking for me to write more and more cheques!

The damn thing is broken!

It is well past time to fix it, something like a voucher system may be what is needed to fix it!

I have school-age children, and I am fed up completely with the TOTAL WASTE of $$$ I see in the system, then have that same bloody system demand more from my pocket directly!?!?!

I was in favor of a very large pink slip for the entire teachers federation, then hire them all back under a new system, I am still in favor of such action.

This is not true. I have a BC teaching certificate & was just hired in Calgary. Now I need to decide if I really want to leave Vancouver.
I work with a teacher who just moved here from alberta last year & just graduated from U of C 2 years ago. She needs to take a couple of courses to keep her job permanently but she is able & qualified to teach in BC.

These are the facts for special education funding in my school. I know that in other districts the situation is worse because my district supplements funding from the Ministry. My school also does fairly well because my Principal puts all funds generated by special education into my program plus some into the annual school budget.

Prior to 2002, the population of my school was approximately 195. We had a full-time Learning Assistance teacher. I was the Special Education teacher and was full-time with a caseload of approximately 10 students (one of whom was autistic which gets some of the most funding). If my memory serves me right, I had about 6 or 7 Teacher Assistants.

Since that time our school population has grown to almost 300 students due to amalgamation with a closed school. I am now the Resource Teacher. Learning Assistance is 60% of my position and the other 40% is the Special Ed. portion of my job. This year I have a caseload of 9 special ed. students (3 of whom are designated autistic). There are 3 Teacher Assistants spread out to help those 9 students (one of whom works mostly with one student).

Can you see the picture I'm painting here? If the funding levels were the same now as they were prior to 2002, there would be two people doing the job I'm filling now. With only one Resource Teacher, it means that paperwork, assessments, scheduling of meager TA time, etc. is all done by one individual. I haven't even started teaching yet!!

Talk to the parent who phones me at home crying for her son because he doesn't have enough support at school which translates to a stressful time at home each evening. What am I supposed to tell her? Besides all the accomodations being made for her son, I have provided her with the email addresses of Shirley Bond and co. so that she can take her concerns right to the top. What am I supposed to tell all the students who need help but just aren't getting it because of lack of resources? And this is with my Principal taking funds from other areas of the school's budget to provide more to my program. And let's not even talk about the nonexistent enrichment program!!! Who has time or money for that????

We have developed some very good programs in our school to help students succeed. Students in the entire school population are making good progress. The credit doesn't go to anyone in Victoria. It goes to school personnel and those parents who provide support for their children's learning at home. And sorry folks, I think many of you would be surprised to learn how few parents do such simple things as practice spelling words at home!!!

The fact that I am a proud member of the BCTF has nothing to do with my beliefs here. It has everything to do with the fact that I want the best education possible for ALL students in our school. That's why I became a teacher, particularly a special education teacher, after all. Instead of criticizing the BCTF and teachers, how about putting the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Fiberals where it belongs?????

Fiat Lux, I really enjoy your inputs. You're obviously someone who realizes that learning and schooling are related but hardly synonymous.

At their best, schools should be a place where students are exposed to experiences and ideas (not necessarily pleasant ones) that are growth-oriented and generally beneficial, and that are not often found outside of school. There is no substitute for a good teacher, but too often the student isn't ready and the teacher does not appear.

The political and industrial nature of schooling seems to be a necessary evil in pursuit of a necessary good. I suppose the same could be said of many other industrial processes (eg agribusiness, etc. -- I prefer home-cooked organic vegetables, but I'm not averse to frozen vegetables when the former are not available, and if the green giant needs his cut, then so be it).

The article all these blogs are based on was well-researched and clearly written. To my knowledge it accurately spells out some of the difficulties our school system has tangled itself into. I suppose the question is, do we have the patience, energy and skill to untangle ourselves without doing too much damage to all concerned in the process.

Thank you for your comments, Birch.

I would like to narrow it down to "learning and being exposed to teaching" are completely different and often opposite concepts.

We can best see this in the brainwashed economics graduates coming out of our universities, totally out of touch with facts and realities, yet giving advice to politicians who are either too stupid to realize what they're doing, or are paid off.

The present neoclassical capitalist system is the fourth economic and the sixth monetary system I'm living under, so needless to say, I look at economics as a bad joke, apart from the sordid fact of the ongoing criminal destruction of millions of lives, and the environment, to fill the insatiable greed of a diminishing few.

Yet, it is being taught as a "science".

Ed Deak.

Working man, private schools have boards and trustees.

Murdock, our system is not broken. You're just repeating the neo-con American lie. The voucher sytem is designed to undermine and eventually destroy public education. Another traitor idea brought to you by the parasites in our society who wish to steal what took years of other people's money, time, energy and love to build.

What can you say about a society too miserly, too greedy, too oportunistic to provide a quality education for its' children?
Maybe we're being lead poisoned by the cheap pots and pans from China. It's as good an escuse as any.

SpedTeacher

Good to hear your pearly words of wisdom on the Special Education issue.

I find it interesting that prior tom 2002, you apparently had 10 SEd students with 6 or 7 TAs plus yourself. This of course is the heart of the issue. How much resource is enough?

The question that I posed to you during the BCTF labour withdrawal, which we debated at length, is are we really doing too much for the SpEd students, do we have the right selection criteria, do we have greater expectations than what we can achieve, and at what point do we say enough is enough.

These are significant issues, especially when one considers the high need for close to one on one care for the SpEd student. In reading the MinofEd web and researching the issue, I was struck with the enormous administrative burdens to do assessments and so forth, the need for specialty services and medical issues involved here.

Other than the apparent demand for people resources to deal with the current prescriptive tasks, I still say that a need exists to re-think the entire special education issue.

I do not profess to be an expert on this issue, but clearly, this is a very difficult problem to solve.

It is good to see your dynamic attention and dedication to this subject and I congratulate you accordingly. But again, how far does society go to deal with this and at what cost?

Murdock, what you don't understand is that learning diabilities are life long. You don't magically lose them when you leave high school. And the ones fighting for the learning disabled are usually teachers. Maybe you weren't here when the BC teachers went on strike a couple of months ago?

As for your ignorant comment about genetic purging it is in very bad taste. However, since we don't have the resources to help kids learn how to deal properly with their disabilities. So that they can lead as useful and rewarding a life as possible I suggest the following:

Close Children's Hospital. Let those who are unable to survive on their own die young. That way we will have the resources to help those that are left behind live their lives with dignity.

This may seem inordinately cruel but you're wrong. It's better to let them die and help the parents get over the grieving than to let everyone involved suffer for what will seem like eternity.

For redrivergirl:

I say that our education system is broken, for if it is not then why the constant stream of teacher strikes against either NDP and/or Liberals (they struck against both governments) systems? If it is not broken then why does it constantly come out as 'underfunded' while I can calculate from the money in that between $2000-5000 per student is what is being put into the system, yet the outcome to the student is far, far less?

I have had this discussion after PTA meetings with other parents pissed off at yet another request for parent $$$ for another seemingly needed supply or book or whathaveyou.

This is not whining, I had enough of the struggle with the system and went out from it.
I home school now as it is the only option I can afford that allows me the level of control and input I have asked of the public system - that they can demand my money for this-or-that but cannot ever accept my demands of them in their bureaucratic 'system'.

The only opposition to the 'voucher' system I have ever heard has been doom-and-gloomers that cannot have a clear thinking conversation about anything other than the status quo.

As Fiat lux has pointed out the world is changing, as all things change. Our education system must also change or die, unfortunately I see it taking the latter path and far to many bright, intelligent children will go down with it.

The school system is public so of course we need school boards. The school boards are elected by the public and thier job is to talor the local school to meet the needs of that region.
To say that the teachers Union should be shut out of discussion regarding the restructuring of schools is asinine. The teachers who belong to the Union, are the Union. No different than doctors or engineers who belong to their associations. The Union's input is the collective input of the teachers and is very relevant.
Our school system has been structured to help kids pass tests. Passing tests is somehow a measure of how effective the education system is, however passing tests and learning how to learn aren't the same skill set. We have to get away from collecting stats and get back to teaching.

The voucher supporters will not listen to the research, read the research, or even accept that public education as it is now is the best system of educating our young. They are driven by self interest. Note that it is ALWAYS about THEIR children and the airyfairy idea of 'choice.' What has changed in the past 25 years or so to drive this issue for them? Immigration is the big bug-a-boo - expect more push as Canada is now going to increase immigration quotas to pay these aging folks their pensions at the expense of educating the young. Perhaps those who would like a working model of the pseudo voucher and choice system should look into the Australian Education system. It sure separated the "well-to-do" from the "rest" down there. As for educating voucher supporters it is a wasted effort. If they haven't done their homework on this issue my research isn't going to change any opinions on this subject.
I've posted on this before and yet the topic comes up again ad nauseum in the papers, on tv and in political debates.

DenisB

Your earlier comment was:

You were the one that brought the genetic comment into the discussion, I think your comment deserves to have the provocation I gave.

Not all are so inherited, nor are those so challenged (the PC word) left alone to themselves. I know of two families with these challenges and I am assisting them in understandings as they request all the time.

I say that we live in a caring society, that is pushing our children into an ancient and creaking system of education, that has no relation to the real world of LEARNING at all; unless we can change this, as a society we will end up paying the price.

For Burgess,

yet you will not share your research links or other observations, ad nausea.

Without the 'choice', without the airyfairy idea of motivated self-interest of our ancestors in the past, we would not have the society and systems that we do now.

Either indulge in the conversation, show me your ideas, or supporting arguments; or stop simply negating the ideas of others the way you have.

Let me see if I understand correctly...

You took your child(ren) out of the public school system fully aware of the consequences of your action but now want financial compensation. Your justification is that you can spend money more efficiently than the school system.

Your efficiency argument does not hold water because of the simple fact that you are not a licensed teacher and therefore are not providing the same service that the school system offers. You are therefore not entitled to the funding of the system.

the bctf pushes for integration, and then complains that it's impossible to fund it properly. no wonder more folks are switching to the private system. if the bctf had their way they'd eliminate that too. what a mess.
by the way, if classrooms are so jammed, why is the average size of a secondary classroom in coquitlam 26 students? it's 18 for kindergarten, 21 for primary, and 24 for grades 4-8. sounds pretty good to me.

Elliot, last year my smallest high school class size was 30. Most were 32 & one had 37. I don't know where these small classes are but I didn't have one.

One of those classes had 13 students with IEP's. That means 13 students with some sort of special need. I did not have any extra classroom support to deal with them. The remaining classes had at least 5 special needs students not including the ESL kids.

For those who just cannot be bothered to do some decent research and demand others to do the honest hard work here is one example of a disaster created by the pro choicers. (Or just to scared or lazy.)
New Zealand a country of roughly the same population as BC instituted the "choice" concept. The architect of this radical change in educational direction was Lockwood Smith Education Minister. He came to Canda and gave speeches on what a great system New Zealand had approved for their school system. His appearance on Eric Malling's Mavericks programme which was aired three times on CTV in 1996/97. Little did he know that he had been fired from his portfolio before his return to NZ because the government was about to fall on the very programme he instituted. CTV neither corrected or followed up this with any comment except to run the programme TWO MORE times. Sir Roger Douglas in his comments on the NZ economy commented
"Education reforms saw the introduction of the 'voucher' system ........ The result of this policy shows wealthy school areas receiving and average of $220-per-student funding while poorer areas receive just $48 -- creating a huge gap in the quality of public education."

If it is not too much trouble one can also check the London riots over education. Closing of neighbourhood schools in Pueblo, Colorado. The Chicago Charter school debacle. And the Arizona State's experiment with the 3P experiment.

PS The institution of choice in New Zealand led to the spending of an inordinant amount of taxpayer money for advertising budgets by schools competing for the "wealthiest" students.

PPS The Chicago Charter school experiment saw a difference of over $2000US per student between inner city schools and the wealthy suburbs. Just goes to show the power of the "elites" where their children are concerned. Look it up - the truth is out there.

I know one change I'd like to see in the public education system is a very early and very strong emphasis on critical thinking the very second a child is developmentally up for it so when they go to university they won't fall for the brain washing cult of the pretend free-markets.

ruby; those are the averages. you figure it out. statistically speaking if there's a 38 there's also a 14. do you teachers complain about those too?

Elliot; the point of teachers' criticisms of government policy is precisely that. "Averages" are a very poor way of measuring the quality of the system as a whole. When Min. Clark replaced specific contractual limits with an averaging system, the damage was done. Now, you are claiming that the good fortune of the members of a class of 14 justifies the unacceptability of the class of 38. So, to answer your question, yes. Teachers do complain about "that, too", because "that" is the flip side of an unacceptable composition formula.

DenisB: "All staff and teacher salaries, utilities and books have to come out of that $2800."

Ok, I'd like to see your math on that.

Murdock: "I have school-age children, and I am fed up completely with the TOTAL WASTE of $$$ I see in the system, then have that same bloody system demand more from my pocket directly!?!?!"

There is so much waste in the system that teachers are forced to spend their own money on supplies and resources? Even Gordon Campbell had to admit that teachers are spending their own money on needed resources. Additionally, when a parent refuses to pay for a field trip or something similar, I am forced to make a decision. Pay for that child out of my own pocket, or destroy that child and leave him/her behind. PACs receive money straight from the provincial government and dedicated parents work very hard to fundraise to help. If you are so upset at paying for things at the school through fundraising then don't. Nobody is forcing you. Don't worry, I'm sure that Father's Day gift your child made, often paid for out of the teacher's pocket, will still come.

Private schools usually do not allow behaviour disordered or learning diasabled students. It's why they appear to be more effective regular students because they don't have any below average achievers lowering their test scores.

Only one private school in BC accepts learning disabled students for k-12 - The Fraser Academy (no to be confused with the Institue). Their tuition is $18,000/year. even with a $7,000 voucher the parents are still a bit short. But what the hell; life isn't all that fair anyway.

I have followed-up on your talking points regarding the NZ exeprience, and on how they relate to the original point of this article, the inclusion of learning challenged children with other children in a public education envioronment.

My researches have pointed to The Netherlands as having a publically funded 'voucher' system since 1917, they have had thier own conflicts during this time but have managed to integrate learning disabled children effectively. Not only that but maintain the state-funded system (with understandable interruption during 1939-45 period) as a choice led 'voucher' system.

for more comparisons read:
http://www.policyreview.org/apr02/andrews.html

There is no one best design for a choice system. Instead, there are difficult trade-offs, and this is just as true of public-school controlled-choice systems as it is of voucher systems. Consider trade-offs between rapid supply responses and quality control. It is important in choice systems to rapidly expand the supply of seats in the types of educational programs parents and children find attractive. Making it easy for groups to start new schools—for example, charter schools—contributes to this objective.

However, the easier it is to start a new school, the more likely it is that the quality of some new programs will be low and some children will suffer. On the other hand, requiring an elaborate review process may help with quality control but it is likely to discourage supply expansion; this is not going to be an intial problem in a choice system in BC as we are seeing an overall decline in student registrations.

Trade-offs also exist between facilitating the success of individual schools and protecting educational options for children from especially troubled families. The more difficult it is for schools to expel a student whose behavior impacts negatively on the achievement of peers, the more difficult it is for schools to succeed. On the other hand, the easier it is for schools to expel students, the greater is the problem of what to do with troubled students. Another example concerns the obligations of schools to accept students in the middle of the school year—a major issue in many urban districts serving substantial numbers of transient families. The more control individual schools have over midyear admissions, the easier it is for them to succeed in delivering coherent instructional programs. But if schools can restrict midyear admissions, what happens to students from mobile families?

Again I advocate for a choice-led system, where the schools (or learning centers that Fiat lux and I might like to see come into existence) are rigorously overseen by a Government commissioner. Licenced schools recieve more funding, per student voucher, than unlicenced ones, and so on.
To get the licencing, such schools would be required to have a certain mix of students in the population of the school; such as ESL, learning-disabled etc; following the Netherlands model.

There must be a way out from the current impasse, arguing that the status-quo will do is not acceptable to the BCTF, they have made that clear. Meaning that we collectively will continue to see more and more labor strife on this issue until more parents decide to get out from the mess as I have.

The thing is Murdock, there isn't an impasse. There is a political agenda by an neo-con gov't who barely won the last election and will be ousted next election as their actions and massive cost over runs continue. The public knows public education is not in crisis in Canada. That is the real problem you folks have. If you think your gov't is strong enough to withstand the backlash you'll receive if you try to destroy public education, especially considering the scandal undfolding in child protection...well, go for it.

The date given was 1996, the only material I have found about the New Zeland system instituted in 1996 was a Targetted Individual Entitlement (TIE) Scheme.
This was not a universally publically funded model as I was proposing but a specific funding system to allow students to enter the private school system in NZ. Nothing at all like a choice directed system.

Was this the sort of system you are negating? If so I agree with the negation of it as it is not universally directed with choice, but rather a specialist directed one.

for redrivergirl:

Yes there is an impasse, you state that the current government is the problem, I say no.

The BCTF has struck against NDP governments in the past and will in the future. Whichever party is in power will have no effect on the situation.

There is a problem otherwise the need to strike and have continual difficulty (since 1983! and all the different governments from 1983 to today) with the teachers. Unless we are prepared to start thinking of a different solution we will continually have the same problems.

I am only proposing one solution, you seem to want more of the same.

More of the same is an excellent public education system. Actually, there have been very few actual strike days under any gov't. And, isn't the most under the Campbell gov't? What does that say about them.

Yesterday, in 24 hours I read that the gov't is suing a family who taped their family members abuse for defamation. That's where they're putting my health dollars? In suing a citizen - in other words trying to litigate her into silence? Wait til that gathers moss. Wait til the public puts it together that the IHA is suing a citizen!!!! I'd like to read more about that. It was only a fluke I happened to pick up the 24 hour paper or I wouldn't even know! Who is advising this gov't?!

The thing is Murdock, most people aren't really anti union. And, therein lies part of your gov't's problem.

There's an interesting read in the New York Times today by a conservative pundit. Of course, he is distancing himself and erroneously slamming the dems when it is the Diebold situation that actually caused them to lose, however he has some interesting things to say about the Conservative movement today.

To some folks an argument is always about 'winning' never about accepting other points of view.

In New Zealand public schools were 'privatized' and the 'voucher' system immediately turned the school system upside down. There was literally a major movement of students to the schools with the biggest PR campaigns. This resulted in population decreases in other schools forcing some local schools to close. This was particularly noted in areas where the Maori populations were heavy. The receiving schools were very selective with their choice of students. It dosen't take any imagination as to which students were left behind. There was also a significant out migration of teachers to other countries leaving a shortage. And on and on and on. The same senario occured in the City of Pueblo, Colorado. Neighbourhood schools closed. In both situations ( As well as in London, England) Parents revolted. London had riots, New Zealand is still recovering, Pueblo is still a disaster. We don't need this in BC.

As for the BCTF. The nasty right wing rhetoric from politicians and some posters on thetyee.ca is pure bile and spleen. (also known as bs) The folks being vilified are our teachers the men and mostly women that teach our children. The BCTF is not some far off group divorsed from teachers - it is the teachers. Our Provincial Liberals should be so lucky as to have the percentage support that teachers give their spokespeople. By the way it was doubledealing by the mean spirited Socreds that forced the teachers into a union in the first place. Some of those same cretins are in this present coalition with the same meanspirited agenda which is to underfund education and point fingers everywhere except at themselves.

Holland has had 90 some odd years to fine tune their system which started more as a private system than a public system. What the choice/charter people are after is a total radicalization of the public school system. It has been a disaster in cases mentioned. One has only to look up the meaning of the word
'choice' adj 1 : worthy of being chosen : select: 2 : selected with care : well chosen 3 a : of high quality

This is the definition that the advocates for the voucher system want. Exclusive selection of classmates for their children and at public expense.

most of the public sector unions are applauding the libs latest initiative to get contracts settled swiftly and definitively, but not good old jinny sims. after all, it's a gov't initiative. couldn't agree with anything they may have to say. watch for another ILLEGAL STRIKE next fall, with the sheep and the lemmings falling right in line again. this time the public will realize the stunt for what it's worth; jinny's screaming desire for martyrdom. hopefully the libs will strike when the iron's hot and decertify this ridiculous quasi-trade union so we can get our education system back in order for the sake of our children.

Well Elliot, my child needs the BCTF to fight the lieberals and protect education for children. I don't know why that would be different for your children.

Oh yah, I forgot. Elliot is self-made and "didn't take help from anyone and felt very good about doing it myself, [because he] was born in the east end many years ago in a very poor neighbourhood. no money, no car, single working mom, the works. do you think i've used that as an excuse to suck off the hind teat of government for the rest of my life?"

So Elliot didn't get help in the public schools (BCTF), or in decent working conditions (Unions), or health care (godless socialism). So, if Elliot's a true lone wolf self-made man, I expect that Elliot's children are not getting an education delivered by the BCTF, that he is not getting his, or his children's health care from the public health system, and that he works for himself and sets his own standards and conditions. And, if he is lucky enough to have his Mom still around, she (and Granny?) are not receiving CPP, or Old Age Security. That would be socialism.

I always wonder what makes guys like Elliot so freakin' angry? What internal contradiction is so raw that the bile rises from Elliot to erase any sense of community? Holy crap.

Elliot, get thee to a psychiatrist.

blather on wally. the bctf's a joke. if you can't figure that out you're the one with the problem.

I know that I am not alone, nor only is it those with 'conservative' values that say the education system is broken.

For redrivergirl, changing the subject to something from New York is neither replying to my post nor including anything of value to this conversation.

Oh little Elliot, I do agree that there is blather on this board, and I think most posters know where the blather comes from.

Here is a selection of the real blather on the board, from little Elliot of course.

“blather blather blather...walmart sucks...boring boring boring...fight the man...blah blah blah...get a life.”

“what a crock of shite."

"who cares?”

“you're whacked”

Then, after delighting the masses with such deep thinking, little Elliot actually has the nerve to say:

“don't you lefties ever get tired of the cliches?”

HAHAHA, I love it little Elliot. Why can’t you just admit that self-made or not, you and your Mom, and your children have benefited from the development of health care in Canada, from health and safety protection at work, from decent employment standards, a public education system, and retirement protection. For you to deny these facts is simply disingenuous. That is why you don’t confirm but, as evidenced above, you blather.

wally-boy; obviously you're another one of those lefties who has nothing better to do than sit on your computer searching through others' posts. you have way too much time on your hands guy. no wonder our social system is so expensive.

Murdock, look through this web site for information on how BC ranks in the world in education. Our education system is not broken, Murdock, but it is in danger from politicians who see it as a chip to use in their game. Teachers don't see this as a game - it is our lives and it is the future of our students that we care about. Oh, and by the way, I am the BCTF.

check out pisa.gc.ca

Another deeply thoughtful response from little Elliot. I note also that you find yourself with a lot of time as well, little Elliot. Our system is far from perfect, but the social services in this country are the envy of most of the world, incliding our public education. Our social services are the result of a progressive political left that demanded and got universality for most social programs, and a progressive labour movement that agitated for living wages and working conditions for all. The likes of little Elliot have some enormous internal conflict that causes problems with synapses, and leads to a blanket rejection of the truth of the matter. The BCTF have long fought for education standards and the labour movement, while not perfect, has a pretty good track record in improving the lot of every citizen. Even little Elliot. Too bad little Elliot cannot be big enough to admit as much. So little Elliot, did you benefit from public health carte, education, and employment standards? Does your family benefit from social programs and retirement programs? Yah, I thought so.

One more thought. I can't remember who wrote about how much teachers complain about the system and go on strike so much, but please think about it this way, would you rather that we just sat back and kept everything exactly the way it always was? That we never looked for something better for our students? That we didn't bother to look for more solutions to make a good system even better? Does it make sense to keep things the same always? I don't think so. I think the way to keep our education system alive and relevant is to always push to make it better. In my teaching life, it is what I do every day. I am always pushing my students to reach out and do more - I am never really satisfied - I want them to keep on learning and trying new things, even if they are straight A students, there is always something to improve upon, otherwise life would certainly be boring, wouldn't it? This is nothing more that what I say to myself on a regular basis - how might I have worked with that student to help them better? How can I work with this particular class to make it more comfortable for all students - to make them all feel safe enough to take risks with their learning? Perhaps in other jobs, it isn't that way, but with teachers, we are ALWAYS looking for ways to make our system better for our kids. We aren't whining, we're just looking to the future and trying to achieve the very best for our students. If you call that whining, well, what can I say?
One more thing - no, I am NOT in favour of a voucher system here in BC. What we have in place is good, we just need to defend it. It is important to think about all students, not just your own child. There are too many parents who are not in the position to even chat here, as they can't afford a computer. We need to speak for all of those people, and allowing them to become marginalized by a voucher system is not doing that.

Murdok, the ideas you have about public education are part of an ideology. The article is talking about the ideology. It is important to think of the bigger picture in matters of public policy. I know this is not how you new-conservatives tend to think and that is part of the problem.

dollors to donuts you're a teacher wally-boy. who else would have the time to write so many verbose soliliquys? (allan excepted, of course)

spunky; only teachers and lefties would ever pretend to believe that the ILLEGAL TEACHERS STRIKE was about the students. your union is perhaps the most self-serving self-righteous group in canadian society.

This is where I'm coming from: I'm fiscally right-wing with a social conscience.

From the sixties and for 20 years, I worked with a program that looked at various aspects of prenatal, obstetric, post-natal and pediatric care. Around 1975 or so, a sub-committee began to take a look at the possibility of "main-streaming" children with disabilities into the general education system. As a start, that committee included a member of the Vancouver School Board and everyone had the best of intentions. Objective was to provide such children with peer stimulation and to encourage them to "be the best that they could be" to the limit of their capabilities. [At that time ESL was not an issue.]

As one might predict, once the various levels of government, education, medical and parental bureaucracy became involved, things began to go awry. Governments saw an opportunity for schools to take over social responsibilities, teachers saw jobs and a 'higher purpose', doctors wanted their patients to reach their potential and, understandably, every parent of a child with a learning challenge - from the mildly compromised to the profoundly disabled -began to see the "classroom experience" as a right for their child.

The only trouble with the whole scheme, is that successive governments had no clue as to the numbers and logistics involved, or that the eventual costs would overwhelm the education system and the ability of teachers to cope. More important, was that no-one gave enough - or any - thought to the effect this would have on the "normal" and "gifted" child in the classroom.

During this year's strike, teacher after teacher told of the fact that having too many special needs children to look after out of a class of 31 or more, has meant that children who have a normal ability to learn were being ignored because teachers were having to spend extra time with youngsters who cannot learn math or socials because they cannot speak English, or with taking care of students who are severely compromised by mental or physical handicaps - even to the extent of needing toilet them when necessary.

This is nonsense and not at all what was envisioned when main-streaming was first proposed. No-one wants to return to the 20s and 30s, when a child would be 'warehoused' from birth to death because of a severe disability. And one agrees that all children need to learn there are many "differences" in this world which need to be respected.

Nevertheless, I am of the opinion that society and governments alike must recognize that the "rights" of a profoundly learning disabled child to the stimulation offered by the company of "normal" children, extend only to the point at which the "rights" of those normal students to an undisturbed and complete classroom education are compromised or even eliminated.

I'll go even further with my political incorrectness to say that, with respect to immigrants and their children - NOT refugees note, immigrants - I believe the Federal Government should make it the responsibility of those families to be functional in one or other of the official languages of Canada BEFORE they arrive here. It should not be the responsibility of Canadian elementary and high-school teachers, to hold up class instruction, while they make sure that ESL students actually understand the assignments.

ESL instruction would, of course, still be required for the children of true refugees that we welcome with open arms to our - mostly - compassionate country.

It is an unfortunate fact that, unless and until these subjects are discussed openly, and with respect and compassion for all, the system will only become unaffordable and even more dysfunctional than it is already.....and that will mean that it will work for no-one.

elliott,

you are too sad - people like you are all about shouting, yelling and having their own way - I used to see a lot of that when I taught Kindergarten....

Isabella2,

your comments are thoughtful and I appreciate them. It is only through thoughtful diologue that we will ever change any of what is going on. I agree with you that we have to find a better way to deal with these issues, but I fear that you are correct in saying that polititians think only of the bottom line and how they can "spin" the facts to make themselves look better. I don't know where the answers lie, but it makes me feel better to read the more sensible conversations here on the Tyee (I do try to avoid those who just rely on name-calling). There is hope, I guess, we just have to keep talking.

First Spunky says:

then Spunky says:

These two statements are contrary. In each argument first that the system needs no changing. Then in the other that it needs constant change and update.

The model of constant change and update is what I am arguing for and the BCTF is not the only organization that gets to say what the system should look like. This is why we VOTE in school boards and trustees and why we VOTE in governments, I have never had any say in the BCTF (nor do I want one) so therefore that organization should have no more say in the makeup of the system than any other citizen.

Why should they have special status?

I have read PISA and agree that the outcomes are acceptable, now. What about the future? I do not see a rosy future for many from the ancient model education system. Not when many in India are getting better results all the time. Not when Japanese students have better mathematics outcomes than any in North America.

The Indian methodology of identification for talent in math and sciences has been in operation for 30 years and since its release from communist theory domination in 1991 they are coming on strong (the best computer programmers on the planet). If we continue to stand still in our system we will see our children have less and less impact on the world of the future.

I do not agree that any union-led system will be better than a market driven one.

Thank you Isabella2 for that breath of fresh air in this discussion.

I agree.

Nope little Elliot, not a teacher and never have been a teacher. But I notice that you still cannot admit that you and your family have made use of the terrible lefty social programs that you mindlessly revile. Or, is it that little Elliot never went to school, or the doctor, or worked in decent workplace, or helped an aging family member fill out the forms for CPP and OAP? Too, too pathetic.

Isabella2, great piece. My child's class has some special needs children, and little help for the teacher with 30 plus students in the class. The little Elliots of the world will not see what is in front of them. Easier to rage at workers, rather than at the source of the problem. But little Elliot's mindless rage neither solves nor assists with finding a solution.

murdock,

so sorry, i'm just speaking my mind, not being as careful as many on this site are with their words. i usually just let my actions speak - that would be in the classroom. i don't see a problem with saying that we have a good system but that there need to be changes and that we should always be on guard and concerned. perhaps you see that as being contrary, i see it as being real. i live in a real world, with a real class, not a bunch of numbers. the kids i work with are more contrary than i am - they are full of potential, but also in danger of making poor choices. my job is to teach them to think and use their minds to make the best choices possible for their lives. i am not a politian, nor am i as eloquent a speaker as you or many others on this site - sorry if you don't understand where i am coming from. i am trying to be honest, and say what i think and feel. life is not black and white and the world is full of contradiction, is it not?

Sorry Isabella, I don't find your argument any different than the usual one.

The system is not unaffordable, nor is it dysfuntional. We have enough money through our taxes to pay for a good public education system for all our children.

Have you forgotten the big party we're having in 2010? Perhaps we should take the money the gov't is paying lawyers to sue the family of the fellow who died in a seniors care home who taped his abuse. Why are my taxes going to sue a fellow citizen to 'shut her up'?

I'm sure if our priorities are in the right place we can easily come up with the money. After all we always have. This is what we got together and decided to pay taxes for in the first place. Not to increase the profit margin for Accenture etal.

There is a problem now in the class room because this gov't has cut money for teacher and student supports. (please don't say it was the school boards. We all know it is the gov't.) Why have they cut money from public education when we are supposedly doing so well? (and please don't say they've increased money. We know they haven't in real dollars and we also know they spend health dollars on construction projects, suing citizens etc and why would we not assume the same to be true in education?)

Murdock, those statements are not in opposition to each other. A good system can always be open to be a better one. A better one in this case is one where there are more resources for our children. Our children. Our resources.

I agree, red river girl. It is all about priorities. We can stop the deterioration of our schools.

Isabella,

I'm curious as you claim to be a fiscally conservative. What are your thoughts on corporate welfare? Are you okay with more money going into corporations and less on education?

So here we are in the circular argument again!

Government programs require taxes to fund operations. We need corporations, small business, and workers in order for government to collect taxes.

Corporations and small business create employment. To attract corporations one has to develope appropriate policies, otherwise they will not come. That is the challenge.

In this very competitive world, even between Canadian Provinces this challenge is no mean task.

So the bottom line is that there is only so much money in the Government coffers to spend on programs. Perhaps we should tell the government not to increase public service salaries at this time, and put the several billions of dollars into education, health or other programs.

Isabella is absolutely correct in her assessment.

I think what we really need to do is agitate for the end of free trade. On Lou Dobbs today they ran a story that said that the right to control one's own imigration policy was being negotiated. I assume ours is too. Apparently a bunch of bipartisan senators and congressmen have said they will withdraw their support for the organization if they bargain away their rights to manage their own imigration. What is Martin doing with this I wonder?

It's time to get out. Their is no way we can compete, nor should we, nor do we want to do so. It's time to put our foot down and stop this ridiculous scam.

Gosh. immigration.

It's late, it's 'there' as well.

Some thoughts after reading a lot of these posts ...

Nothing is ever completely perfect .. without room for improvement. Our education system is always growing, improving and changing .. often at the expensive whims of a newly elected government.

I have special needs students who spend the majority of their time in my Resource Room and in the community. They have almost enough supports. It is the students in the higher incidence categories and those in the gray area (learning disabled) who are the ones suffering from lack of supports. It is obviously much easier for teachers to reach ALL students if class sizes are within reasonable limits.

It is very easy to have a class of 14 in the stats. For instance, a high school can have a Family Management 11 class of 14 and a Family Management 12 class of 17. Looks really good until you realize that the classes are taught at the same time, in the same room, with the same teacher. Gotta make those averages after all.

School-wide assessments and those silly FSA scores continue to improve despite the lack of supports and because of the hard work of teachers, support staff and parents.

I don't have statistics but I do know from personal and professional experiences that I have seen more of my special needs students complete high school and obtain jobs.

The BCTF is an extremely democratic association. Check out the AGM in March and see for yourself. Teachers determine the direction of the BCTF not the other way around.

Just give the education system the funding levels and supports that existed prior to 2002. It would be much easier for everyone to continue the improvements to our schools then.

john,

my personal experience is the whole idea of integrating the specifically challenged with the ordinarily challenged has been sadly underfunded since day one.

the problem continues, and will never stop unless , or until generous funding is available.

ignoring the pros and cons, this is a very expensive undertaking.

to do it properly requires far more that building ramps and widening doorways.

the liberalization of bc requires that those needing govt funds go without, as the money is needed to balance the books, and for gordo's friends and inlaws.

therfore there will be no significant change in store for the educationally challenged.

does that mean we stop trying?

What's wrong with the funding levels that we had prior to 2002?

The improvements for students require smaller class sizes, fewer children with modified programs in each class, and adequate funding for the students who fall in the high incidence and gray areas.

The Liberals can stop lying about how much money they are putting into education. You know, like that $150 thousand or million or whatever it was that was announced on two separate occassions, making it sound like two different increases to funding, right before teachers went out on strike.

Why is it that none of you are angry that the govt. waited until AFTER the teachers' strike to look into the issues of class size and composition? Even with their directions to BCSPEA to stall negotiations, surely they had to be able to tell that these were two important issues to teachers!!!

Why is it that you can all see the problems in our school system yet you aren't criticizing the govt. because the only extra money that's going into the education system right now is money saved by the strike?

Why is it ok to pay for and go over-budget on the 2010 Olympics but there are children crying in our classrooms because of lack of supports?

The shift in government spending over the last couple of decades is the problem. It is increasingly difficult for education, health etc to receive proper funding to function.

sdgreen is quick to point out the importance of business etc to our economy, so the taxes keep flowing. This is generally agreed upon by all.

The total federal corporate welfare spending for 1987-88 is $1,559.7mill.
The total for 2004-05 is $6,055.1million

The shift, clearly, has gone to big corporations and business favours. They are also contributing far less taxes as well.

Many of us just want to see the balance restored. Lets see more taxes spent on education, health care etc, and less on business. They just don't need it in these so called booming economic times.

'The BCTF is an extremely democratic association.' says an executive member? if this were true the bctf would allow teachers to vote in their schools whereby they couldn't be manipulated by the pre-vote hype rallies. something that they will continue to resist because it would hurt them greatly.
from the latest b.c. auditor general's report: in the first four years of the liberal's reign spending on health care was up 24% from ndp levels and spending on education was up 16%. why do you lefties keep blathering about these non-existent cuts? the bctf is a political party that uses the education of public school children as their political football. time will show that the ILLEGAL STRIKE cost them much credibility with the public, especially considering the terms agreed upon were strictly about more benefits for teachers and virtually nothing for the students. (lol, never mind the fact that the benefits are being paid for from the funds saved during the dispute.) they were played like a strativinsky.

Elliott,

My, but you ARE an ANGRY ANGRY Right Winger - what's your problem? Thankfully, the majority of the public doesn't feel the way you do!

Elliot a few quick facts on the increased spending less service (cuts): 23% raises for nursing & HSA, 18% raises for management plus more management, doubled MSP fees, paid Health authorities, outsourced contracts. If you looked at each year you'd find that it was only the last year that funding actually "increased" while most of the increased costs appeared in the beginning. So really if you understood the figures you'd know that they've barely returned to pre-Lib levels.

Credibility with the public? Too bad the facts don't back up your rhetoric, Elliot.

Public support increased
During our job action public support actually grew. When we went back to work public support was higher than when we started the action.

Two weeks after the job action ended we polled the public on a number of questions including our right to strike and the level of funding for public schools.

When asked if teachers should have the right to strike, support went from 51% in June of 2005 to 60% in November.

When asked if funding for public schools was too high, too low, or about right, the proportion stating that funding was too low went from 55% in May 2005 to 62% in June.

The classroom teacher is still the most credible source of information about public schools.

The problem with idealogues, on any side of whatever discussion, is that, sooner or later, they reduce the issue to a justification for a single-minded mantra. Thus, a right-winger will blame unions and the spend-thrift lefties; the left-winger will lay all the blame at the feet of corporate welfare and free-trade, and environmentalists will tell us that all our problems are due to global warming.

Although there is value to be found in all of these positions, until people are willing to set aside their dogged mantras and epithets and, instead, say, "How can we work together to improve our education/healthcare/child welfare/whatever systems?" little will improve.
A good example of what can be accomplished can be found in the way British Columbians of every political stripe, age and training worked together for over a year to discuss electoral reform and develop recommendations for an improved voting system. They actually listened with respect to the experienced, AND to one another, and were able to come to an almost unanimous consensus. It does not matter whether we agree with their opinion, what we need to applaud is that they proved to themselves and to us that reasonable people can have a variety of pre-conceived opinions, yet still cooperate to come to a positive compromise that made everyone happy.

So - not everyone who makes money is a blood-sucking corporate welfare bum - many of them donate millions to universities, hospitals, cancer research, homeless shelters, etc., to provide services for the rest of us, that our taxes cannot afford. Not all union members believe they should have the highest salaries and longest holidays on the planet - and, although they pay union dues, not all of them vote NDP despite the fact that they are, undemocratically, forced to donate to a political party for which they do not vote.

Most of our problems - even the global ones - could be solved if only we could find the secret to persuading everyone - especially the politicians - to be accountable for their actions, and for everyone to say, as did John F. Kennedy [funnily enough a good fit in a left-wing corporate welfare bum family] "Ask not what your country [and its people] can do for you; ask what you can do for your country [starting with your neighbour.]

Sadly, it seems that, for over 2000 years, men and women have proven that they prefer to thrive or die in conflict, than to concede one inch to someone who does not agree with their point of view.

Note to Chris H.

You make good points, but I differ with you on the last one: The best judge of the public school system is the student and the parent, for it is them alone who can say whether or not the results are successful and/or acceptable to "the customer."

Nitpicking seems to be about the only way Murdock and Elliot seem to post. Note Murdock 'gave up' on the choice/charter debate. (for this thread anyway.) Gee teachers vote in their schools. They do. Another myth popped eh! It's just that some votes have to be done fast and the only way is to get teachers to central voting areas. Teachers who don't vote are 'yes' votes in any democratic system or organization. Are these two posters shills for the Raham 'Teachers for Excellence' anti BCTF organization?

Elliot- you're obviously NOT a teacher, with spelling skills like that...

Isabella2- do you have any idea how much money some of the "immigrants" bring into this country? Into the public school system? Ha! As if our gov't is going to turn them away... nope, more likely just take their money and let their kids struggle in our school system. I tutor Korean ESL students (whose parents do not speak English) and their parents are paying thousands of dollars in 'tuition' for their children to attend public school in BC. Some of these children are living with their mother and siblings while their fathers stay in Korea to work and support them. These families are making huge sacrifices. To flippantly say their parents should be "functional in one or other of the official languages of Canada BEFORE they come here"... like, what, the Italian immigrants were 30 years ago? The Greeks?

Besides, unless you've been living under a rock for a few years, you'll have noticed that (in this part of the country, anyway), Chinese is far more widely spoken than French (which I assume is the "other" official language you refer to.

Elliot,

If you were referring to me, I am not a member of the BCTF Executive. I'm a member of my local Executive if that counts though. I have even gone to the BCTF AGM the last few years but it still doesn't mean that anyone tells me how to think or even vote. I have always voted the way I wanted to and sometimes it's been against the recommendations of the BCTF Exec. That is the same for most teachers, I'm sure.

Burgess is right. Teachers vote in our own schools more because it's more convenient and more teachers vote that way. It is rather difficult to drag teachers away from the schools (what with the after hours prep, marking, meetings and coaching) to get them to a meeting in a more central location.

Anyone with eyes can see that the Liberals can play with the books all they want and pretend that they have put more money into education. Have you not noticed that BC Hydro rates and many others have increased in recent years? In order for funding to increase it must at least keep up with costs. I think that the amount of money each school spends on paper and photocopying alone would astound you. Thank those ambiguous IRPs for that.

Isabella2:

You say: "The best judge of the public school system is the student and the parent, for it is them alone who can say whether or not the results are successful and/or acceptable to "the customer." "

Hmmmm. Do you think that the parent who refuses to have her child remain in Kindergarten an extra year because it will cost her more in daycare (despite the fact that her child is not developmentally ready for Gr. 1 and it's been recommended that her child be placed in Kindergarten by many educators) would be a good judge of our public education system? This child is going to eat up funds throughout his school career just trying to help him catch up. He has already taken up an awful lot of teacher time (preparing a modified program, assessment, meetings, specialist support, etc.) and it's only Dec. of the year he's in Gr. 1. The government, in their wisdom, says that we aren't allowed to hold a child back without parental consent. What are we supposed to do when the parent bases her refusal on something other than educational reasons?

Or how about the child who is ticked off at his teacher because he received a detention for disrupting a lesson? Or the other student who is miffed that he received an I (Incomplete) on his report card for assignments not handed in? Or how about my special needs student who called me a "b**ch f***en" the other day because I told him he wasn't allowed to kick people? You think they would be good judges of our education system?

In your opinion, these people are better judges of our education system than teachers? Sorry, but I don't think we are quite as biased. We base our opinion on what we see occurring around us in schools every day. Some of us even do our very best to keep up with all the latest research. Don't get me wrong. There are many parents and students who can look at the system objectively but there are also many who don't. They can't see past their own personal situation.

My son is in a Gr. 4 class of almost 30 students. There are 9 students in the class on IEPs. One student receives extra funding, not because he qualifies under Ministry categories, but because the school applied for and received extra funding for him to pay for teacher assistant time (this is a program available in my school district but I don't think other districts have the same approach). These students and others in the class receive support through the Learning Assistance program. Well, they will once the Resource Teacher (me) can finish up with all the assessment and paperwork required by the Ministry and actually start teaching. You can bet that, as a parent and a teacher, I would like situations like these improved. I can't see any other way to do it other than to limit class sizes and to provide adequate support for these gray area students, can you?

Just remember there are posters to thetyee whose sole purpose is to belittle, abuse, and generally just be nasty. It makes one wonder who finances them that they have so much time to monitor sites that they are afraid of doesn't it? Why are they so afraid of honest debate? They do nothing to add to discusions except put down and backbite. Sheesh!

The brilliant dialogue of Elliot in his loquacious disparagement of a group of professionals who passionately believe in education is only surpassed by workingman an d his alter sdgreen in their inventive meanderings about the evils of the public portion of that profession. Be reminded that no group is more public than elected legislators who demonstrated the height of their avarice with their recent pay raise and pension Nirvana: until their party was rained on by the evil Carole waking form her reverie, that one can work deals with mobsters. Of course this “raise was tied to improvement in constituency office funding. True to form Gordo bailed out of the whole package when those despicable NDs actually listened to citizen complaints about the exorbitant pensions and self determined healthy wage increase, after denying teachers the right to bargain for theirs. We need you scholarly advice on what is fair and just. Just good for an elite few and dung upon “the working man”. I would think.
This eloquent trio predicted the money hungry teachers would leave the picket immediately, when their own strike pay fund was so crudely jerked away from them. Our three musky tears have convinced everyone that only lefties protested the government’s breach of contract. It is singularly strange how some of the most conservative members of our community were observed on their daily civil disobedience walks. It is only when the quisling Sinclair again (as he did with the health union) deserted them in participating in the real war for democracy that they acquiesced. Thinking persons might wonder how closely Sinclair and the government mediator conspired to “work” a settlement to keep the unlikely heroine out of jail. We will never know because once again people with integrity caved into repressive laws, denying bargaining rights to a large sector of society. Furthermore, these laws were passed by a government which has consistently abused its legislative authority and continues pander to business criminals, conspirators, drug dealers and, influence peddlers. As well, these public servants continue to gorge at the public trough in company of their corporate sponsors, while average “working man” fails to find the proverbial pot. However, I truly revere this intellectual trio. I am certain incompetent teachers have failed them in not getting them past grade eight in this outrageously decadent education system.
Foot note to “working man” who most likely ironically, has never worked a day in his life. – The college of teachers, is mostly appointed by Mr. Campbell, until those horrid teachers withheld their dues on Christie – who suddenly did an about face and allowed some publicly elected teacher representation. It is this august body which determines who holds teaching certificates in this province – not as you cited from your erudite research, the nasty teachers union. I believe one of your other wise partners ego claimed teachers with other provincial tickets can teach in Ontario or anywhere in Canada. I am impressed with this scholarly misinformation. You should correct him, her, and it.

Isabella, first, your premise that our system is flawed is incorrect. Secondly, your language is so steeped in your ideology that it is growing mold. (speaking of ideologues)

Also, you are perpetuating yet another lie. That the citizen's assembly was not interfered with (check out FairVote Ontario's recommendations about what not to do ie stack the deck for one system, STV and inappropriately influence the members with a preconceived bias) and another lie that everyone was happy with their 'compromise' which according to some members on the assembly is not the case at all.

There's a good column about 'governing by propaganda' (rather than real governing which takes more than gutting our system and the corporatation of our community) in the NYTimes today. The game is over.

Spedteacher tells it like it is in the classroom and, in so doing, reveals the extreme frustration that has resulted from the 'flawed system' I spoke of previously - and that another writer denies exists.

He/she also makes a good deal of my case: What parent of a so-called "normal" student in that classroom would be happy to know that instruction of their child had to be suspended while the teacher dealt with a swearing and kicking student. NB: I do not like using the normal because that implies others are 'not normal' so perhaps regular is a better choice?

It is a sad fact that many of our children are (a) born with fetal alcohol syndrome which causes learning and behavioural problems; (b) come from families which are themselves dysfunctional; or (b) are one of those children in the "25% of BC children who are living in poverty - ergo their parents are also." How can the discussion progress, therefore, if we begin by castigating the parent of a kindergartner who, dealing with the realities of poverty, feels there is no alternative but to remove the child from the second year?

Then, couple this with the fact that teachers today are given almost no options for dealing with students who are acting up, the total burnout, the stress leaves and that seems to add up to a flawed system to me....It works for no-one.

As for the "money that immigrants" put into the system, that is a fallacy. At best, it is revenue neutral and at worst, the costs of special services outweigh the revenue.

The writer is correct....teachers teach the kids English as a second language and many of them go home to a family structure that cannot understand them. As for what should be Canada's second language....it wasn't my idea to make English and French the "official" languages...but that WAS the country immigrants chose as their new home. So you tell me, whose responsibility is it to adapt? That of the immigrant, or the whole darn country? The comparison with the days when Italians and Ukranians, etc., came to Canada, is a poor one. Those people were thrown into the pot of Canadian society and learned the language pretty damn fast.

This could go on forever, but all I'll say in closing is that it is true that Federal and provincial government policies - ever since Trudeau put his fingerprint on us all - are responsible for much of the mess. That said, until Canadian parents are prepared to stand together to demand change, nothing much will happen. A good start was made when most parents - and grandparents - stood alongside the teachers in the recent job action...as did I. But if we don't keep up the pressure - via cooperative discussion - everything will begin to slip back again.

Lastly, as with most other issues, money alone will not solve our problems....It takes a village.

The problems you've cited are problems created by lack of funding due to the ideology of the BC Liberals.

It is the responsibility of the new Canadian to adapt and I agree that Canada needs to honour her own character, however,
you fail to calculate the benefit of that first generation child growing up with esl support that translates into her generation and the one following and is a benefit to us all. And, let us not forget that we supposedly are in a time of great economic benefit. Not a time where social programs need to be cut and eliminated. If we were in that time the first place to cut is industry welfare. How about getting the fish farm fine returned to us. Or, some of those pay back lucrative bs contracts? No, this is about some ignorant people practicing social darwinism.

Let's not forget that it was a socialist NDP government which closed most of the Riverview Mental Hospital, which use to house thousands of patiencts, and in the name of poorly understood "equality" decided to mix mentally and physically challenged children with the rest. This is part of the conspiracy of "DUMBING AMERICA" (see book of that title written by a famous US educator). Class size has more to do with number of teachers paying union dues than education. It is possible, specially in a higher grades to have 50 or even 70 well behaving kids in a class and teach them effectively. I enjoyed University lectures with 500 students taking copious notes of experienced professor. Having only 15 students, with one very disruptive is a sabotage of the teaching process, as that child takes 90% of the time and energy of the teacher

Ok. I think it's time to act. By most of the comments, I think people understand the need for a change to a fully funded, quality, public education system. The only way it will happen is if parents and others demand it. They actually have in the round table meetings that are taking place. Who is not supporting ratios for special education and other support services?

It is government/ principals/administrators/trustees.

So talk to them and convince them why it is important to support our children now and not when it is too late as they lie homeless or dead on the streets or get thrown into jail. That is the alternative, pay now for a healthy, functional life or pay later for a wasted, criminal life rotting in jail.(not to offend anyone parent, I am only going by statistics, I am a parent of a special needs child and a special education teacher)

Here is one site to get in touch with your mla.There are lots more just click on to BCTF.

Merry Christmas or whichever is your God.

http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/mla/3-1-1.htm

letlive: I agree with you on the need for a fully funded public education system, but the round table is a farce and a dodge...to make you think the BC Liberals are listening... when they have absolutely no intention of ever doing so.

that round table is an interesting thing. apparently, gordon is just as pleased as punch to be involved and chairs every meeting, agreeing with jinny that things need to change. hmmmm..... i wonder what his evil plan is? could it be that gordon wants to be seen as the saviour of education in bc? he lets shirley bond be the fall guy (girl), and then, as he wasn't anywhere to be seen during that horrible, awful ILLEGAL TEACHER'S STRIKE, he comes in as the voice of reason and "fixes" everything. I think we've been "fixed"!

latarnik,

let me get this straight. you think that a teacher should be able to handle a class of 50 - 70 10 year olds? when was the last time you spent any amount of time with that age group? the reason university classes are so large is they are teaching "adults" - you know, people who are "mature" and also are paying big bucks for their education, so yep, they sit there and listen. the only scenario i can imagine where that would happen with 10 year olds would be if you went back to those really really old days and used the strap - is that what you're thinking? what exactly does my paying union dues have to do with class size, anyways?

Isabella 2- The children of European immigrants learned English "pretty damn fast", but their parents and grandparents didn't. Some of them never did. So it is not a poor comparison at all.

The Korean tweens and teens I tutor are fluent English speakers. They need guidance in essay writing- which as far as I'm concerned a lot of Canadian-born students could use a bit of additional help in as well.

They ARE adapting; incredibly well, as a matter of fact. And they are shaping the future of this country so that those of us BORN here are going to have to adapt, whether we like it or not. If you think French is going to be more useful in Vancouver in the next 10 yrs than say, Mandarin, you'd better be packing your bags and heading to St Thomas, Ontario... because there you can probably still get away with uttering such nonsense as "As for what should be Canada's second language....it wasn't my idea to make English and French the "official" languages...but that WAS the country immigrants chose as their new home. So you tell me, whose responsibility is it to adapt? That of the immigrant, or the whole darn country?"

Hmm???

Oh, and my response to your last question (though the bit before it didn't make a whole lot of sense) is this: BOTH.

spunky, I agree, very interesting info on Gordon chairing the round tables... hmmmm. And pleased as punch, you say...that does sound ominous. :-)