Well, what can I say except....YES I AGREE !
Though there are others factors driving the teacher-government conflict.

As a former BC public school teacher working at a university in South Korea I'm one of the "overpopulation". I started as a TOC...got bored ! Then I found a job teaching in adult education with the Richmond School District for six years. After the contracts dried up I went overseas.

I think many Education students (teachers to be) should be looking overseas to start or for good well paying employment.

Me, I want to return to BC, but I have a feeling I will be heading overseas (Asia again, New Zealand or the Gulf States - UAE, etc.) after a couple of years back in BC.

Maybe it's time to limit enrollment in teaching training programs unless many Education students are willing to teach in other provinces and/or countries. Or maybe the current strike and the conflicts therein will reduce the numbers.

Lastly, I agree with Bob Rogers that education is lifelong learning. I majored in Political Science and History before Secondary Education. Most of what I have learned about these subjects I have learned on my own after university. I know how the electoral system works because I've run for office (municipal. provincial, federal) eight times ! However, I should credit my university professors for opening my eyes and interest.

Kevan Hudson

Certainly the over-population of teachers is unrelated to the attractions of the job, its hours of work, its perks, its compensation, its summer on the shore. Rather, it is the magnaminity, the altruism, the giving nature of so many individuals that prompts their personal sacrifice in order to seek work shaping young minds. McMartin fails to make the latter point, relying instead on background, facts and reason while omitting conventional wisdom and empathy in his search for a rationale. That's a daring departure for a Tyee contributor. No doubt he will be excoriated by the teacher-collective sympathizers when they return, hoarse and hyper, from their rousing demonstration.

If one looks at both the Ministry of Education's stats and Gliberal legislation we note:
- student enrolment has declined in recent years.
- in 2001 the government removed class size limits in grades 4 to 12, legislating instead a district average of 30 for these classes. Previous limits were set at max. 32 for most secondary classes, with lower limits for grades 4 to 8 and some specialty areas like shop and special education.
- Proportionately, more teaching positions have been lost since 2001 than the drop in student enrolment justifies, if we use pre-2001 class size limits.
-in 2001 the Gliberals removed ratios for non-enrolling teachers: librarians, counsellors, resource room and learning support teachers. That is why there are fewer of these people working with students in schools.
- in 2001 the Gliberals maintained funding at previous levels but did not provide money for the salary increase they legislated or for the MSP premiums they raised. Guess what- school boards had to lay teachers off and reduce services to students in order to balance their budgets as required by law.
- McMartin's teacher surplus exists in his mind but not in any school district I know of. Go to Hansard for October 6 and 7, 2005. Read up on the current conditions in BC classrooms. The Gliberals have created a so-called teacher surplus by making classes larger, reducing funding (despite their fallacious claims otherwise), eliminating educationally sound ratios and class composition provisions- go to a school, ask a teacher how this year's class compares in number and composition to classes taught before the Gliberals arrived.
- by the way, I think McMartin included principals and vps in his numbers. Guess what- those people seldom do any teaching at all at the secondary and middle school levels. They don't do much teaching at elementary either so to count them in as fulltime educators is simply wrong and skews results.
Pre-2001 provisions were agreed to by both the employer and teachers -Gliberal bean counters have brought us to where we now are. Economic expediency has replaced educational soundness.

The economies practiced by the Gliberals will prove costly, my friends. (By the way, I'm not just meaning dollars here, folks.)

Hey, Bud Carlos,

Do I detect some sarcasm in your early morning post?

I thought dinosaurs were extinct- surely you aren't espousing the old view of summers off, etc. Like I said before, read some Hansard from October 6 and 7. If you're open to it, you might soften your seemingly cynical views.

While a lot of what Will has said is true, I'm a bit disturbed by his equating part-time teachers with TOCs.

I have been both; they are not the same. A part-time teacher is, quite simply, a teacher who does not have a full load (for any of various reasons). I chose, in my final year of teaching, to work 4 days out of 5 with a commensurate reduction in salary and earned pension benefits. A TOC is a teacher who substitutes for another on an "as needed" basis. A TOC may, in fact, work 5 days a week on occasion. I had one job as a TOC where I worked full-time for 3 months.

Please, Will, don't muddy the waters. :-)

I don't by it Will.
Historians and sociologists can also postulate that the climatic disasters since Boxing day is Mother Natures way of dealing with overpopulation. Not to mention the potential of an avian flu pandemic.
A "surplus of teachers" (read: larger class sizes) in BC is Gorgon's tactic of dumbing down potential competition to the offspring of the elite. It's a class stuggle, baby.
Remember, Democracy is a 24/7 exercise.

".. When the class size restriction language was stripped from our contract, it was replaced by the logistically-flawed concept of class size averages. An
average class size is irrelevant. If a Photo Arts class runs with 24 students, and a Textiles class has another 24 students, then an English class could potentially have 42 students without upsetting the average of 30 students per class. Surely you can see that this is an untenable situation ..."

-- from a letter sent to Shirley Bond, Minister of Education, by a Vancouver high school teacher.

BC Mary is right: it's worth noting that averages are very irrelevant. A typical high school band or choir class might run as high as 50 or 60 students (Such classes were explicitly exempted from class size restrictions) while Technical Studies ("Shops" and "home ec") are limited to 18 by Workers' Compensation Board safety regulations. The result is that music teachers routinely handle large classes (and burn out quickly) while the more traditional classes (English, French, Sciences, etc) must be increased in size to compensate for the shops courses. Patently unfair to the teachers AND the students!

Wow, WCB says I should only have 18 kids in my shop class. That would be a shop teachers dream. Although I have had small classes it is not unusual to have 26 in a wood, tech or auto class in our school. Some Jr. Schools put 32 kids in the life skills classes (32- 12 year olds working with power tools and one teacher supervising). Please direct me to this regulation so we can start following the law for a change.

I really get a laugh out of people that parrot the Liberal line that they have 'enshrined' class size in legislation. What does this 'enshrining' really mean?
When our district went over the 'fixed' limits for a grade 3 class (there are no fixed limits for classes 4 - 12), I wrote to the Attorney General saying that the law was being broken and asked what he was going to do about it.
His response took some time but eventually said that it wasn't his department and forwarded my letter to the Minister of Education.
The M. of Ed. said that our Board had filed 'compliance' reports and even if there was an overage it would probably be best dealt with by the grievance proceedure. He happily noted that teachers had just won that right back through a court decision.
So the M. of Ed. thinks that nothing has to be checked if the Board tells it that nothing's wrong and if there is anything wrong then they're more confident in a union grievance process than in their own legislation.
I then wrote back to the Attorney General saying that Min of Ed had no enforcement powers so what was the AG going to do?
His response was that the legislation was civil not criminal and the only recourse for breach was for someone to sue the Board for not obeying the legislation....
In the meantime I heard that our Board got a call from the Ministry assuring them not to worry because there was no such thing as 'class size police'.
Enshrined! Lovely word but, like most government rhetoric, it's just more lies and doublespeak.

'Enshrined': that has connotations of nobility and goodness. Let's not help the devil to cite scripture: call it what it is: 'imposed'

The Orwellian doublespeak that comes out of Victoria really only confirms that "ignorance is strength."

How about the new name for private school - Independent school. (yet they receive public school money) Another Orwellian slight of hand.

Dallas: You're absolutely correct. I should have written: "... part-time teachers (most of whom are TOCs...) Thanks. Will

Minniemouse, I'm distressed that you've been reading Hansard. Anyone who has spent any time in a legislative assembly knows that Hansard is not a true record of what was said. Rather, Hansard constitutes an attempt by the ever-suffering Hansard editors to make sense of the gibberish emanating from the floor. The illiterati are just as well represented in our legislative assemblies as they are in our schools. (O.K., maybe even more so). I am further distressed that you assume dinosaurs are extinct. The foremost advice every parent or teacher should instill in a child is this: assume nothing. Where did your mentors go wrong? The good news is that it's never too late for the enshrinement of such truths in your personal scriptures. I know you will take this to heart.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. A factor missing from this arid extract is the changing demographic profile of public school classes. Is there not a higher precentange of ESL and special needs students "integrated" into regular classes than a generation ago? And if so, how does this affect the optimal class size? I'm guessing that a Grade 6 Social Studies class of 25 in a mainly white, anglophone district in 1985 could absorb more instruction in an hour than a class today composed of 14 kids speaking English at home, seven who speak another language and four with ADD or other learning disorders. And I know there are many classrooms, especially in urban areas, with more varied composition.

Wow, an unbiased look at the teachers situation from thetyee.ca. I'm surprised the tyee allows articles that are so low on rhetoric. But I guess that’s what the posters are for.

How are you teachers defining class size? On the radio this morning a teacher calculated ESL students at 1.5 and special needs as 2 students.

So teachers have only 30 kids in their class but they refer to that in the media as 40 kids. Is that not misleading? Complaining about a class of 36 when you only have a max of 26 kids is pure propaganda. They are straight out lying to the public in order to gain support. I found that fact to be quite enlightening in regards to the propaganda being spread by the teachers.

Do any of you teachers out there have any studies that show dropping class sizes from 30 to 28 has any measurable benefit to the student. I know having class sizes of 15 is better than 30. But is 28 better than 30. Is 25 better than 30? Or is that just a convenient way to use kids a leverage to work less while at the same time bolstering the BCTF's membership and subsequently their political war chest. After all this is Jinny’s try out for a future NDP leadership role.

Will also notes that there is a surplus in qualified teachers. Would that not blow a hole in the economic argument made by the BCTF that we need astronomical retroactive pay raises in order to attract teachers to BC?

The simple fact is the government will not allow teachers to be the only ones who determine class sizes and composition. They will need to work with other stakeholders to do what’s best for teachers, parents and students and not only the BCTF.

The government is also not going to give retroactive pay raises to the teachers as it would then make it impossible to negotiate any of the impending public sector contracts coming up. (Remember government acts in the best interests of everyone and not just union members)

Labour is standing behind the teachers for one major reason. For the money. They’re doing it because it’s in their best interests for teachers to get a raise, especially a retroactive one. This is also the most politically favourable way of creating leverage to raid our provinces treasury for their personal gain. After all you say it’s for the kids, but it’s really about pay raises and increased revenues for unions to continue their political jihad against the BC Liberals.

If you walk out on this impending general strike you should be ashamed of yourself because you are using children as your own personal political pawns to get a pay raise.

Now we can sit back and watch the labour movement force our province into chaos so they can achieve the egoistical goals of creating a personal legacy.

Two studies I've read, one from SFU and one from UBC claim that there will be a teacher shortage in almost all subject areas between 2005 and 2010. Hey, that's this year! Could it be that shortages are the reason more and more teacher job postings have the closing date of "open until filled" rather than the usual one to two week application deadline? Could that be the reason why jobs remain posted month after month rather than being filled within a couple of weeks? Could that be why American states are advertising for teachers in Canada? Could that be why Britain is advertising for teachers in Canada? Could that be why the Calgary Board of Education has masses of jobs posted? Don't believe me, check out educationcanada.com

Oh, and our shop class sizes are the same as jdog's. Want a vise to work at, wait your turn. And we all know how patient teenagers are. Can you say zoo?

Shane is indeed correct. Unfortunately Will did not take any of these factors into consideration. The reality of the matter is that the dynamics are far more complex than Will accounts for.

I work training teachers in one of our universities. Most of our graduating students get immediate placement upon completing their professional training year. -- and more would if the Ministry funded the diverse special needs of students in a meaningful way.

Meanwhile, we have a government which has forgotten that it is there to serve the public, not strong arm it with the most odious kind of legislation it can dream up. Any government that has forgotten its servanthood mandate should take a second look and begin practicing some meaningful negotiation. It's the government's job to initiate meaningful dialogue. That's the mandate we give it when we elect it. Instead, they manipulate by creating Bill 12, knowing full well the chaos such a move would create. They have chosen to take on the whole labour movement hiding behind the skirts of the courts. Shameful!

Gordon Campbell was just on CBC Newsworld looking extremely shaken as he began his press conference. I hope he was wearing a diaper.

Premier Campbell laid heavy emphasis on the necessity for a civilized society to obey the law and, in particular,the B.C. Supreme Court.

At this point, I shrieked in disbelief, having just read a hard-hitting article in today's Vive le Canada by Robin Mathews. He writes ...

On the same day as reactionary CanWest Monopoly Press columnists Norman Spector and Andrew Coyne raced to their book of clichés for statements on the need to bind and gag the strikers, an op-ed article on the same page (Sun, Oct 14 05 A21) reported that “only Manitoba has a lower level of public confidence in our justice system” than B.C. And its writer, lawyer Scott Taylor, left no doubt he believes B.C. will move Manitoba over to occupy the lowest position very soon.

That observation has significant meaning for the teachers’ strike.

Steve Bailey and Shane are correct.
One has to be careful about how class size statistics are calculated. It is customary to include every one who holds a teaching degree in a school. This number would include administrators, and non-enrolling teachers such as counsellors, teacher librarians, job experience co-ordinators, special assistance teachers. In fact these people don't teach or have very limited numbers of pupils in front of them at any given time. Yet few would deny that they are an integral part of what makes a school work.
TOC's are not part time teachers. Part time teachers, and temporary teachers are separate categories. TOC's are not usually included in any calculation of class size, but part time teachers are counted as a decimal fraction of a teacher. Temporary teachers are usually filling in for a period of longer than 20 days, and sometimes as much as 2 years for teachers who are away on some sort of leave.
As a newly retired teacher, I discourage any young person from considering teaching in BC as a career. This has nothing to do with overabundance of teachers, and everything to do with the futility of spending 5 years at university in order to be part of the circus that the political parties have created in education.

JIm (who can't exit the shift key very quickly, apparently) sez:

If JIm will substitute "cronies" for "everyone," we could actually agree on something!

JIm, I calculate class sizes this way;

1 head = 1 student.

Weighting formulas that adjust class size numbers to "counter" the extra work involved in teaching mixed composition classes are a dream not a reality, at least in my world. "Complaining about a class of 36 when you only have a max of 26 kids is pure propaganda" Sounds to me like you are the one using propaganda (possibly based on bold-faced lies), not the teachers. At least none that I know of.

And by the by, when was the last time you taught in the public system?

Sorry, I forgot the BCTF is looking after my best interests. Where is my membership card so I can vote for their leadership. I would also like membership cards for every union especially the BC Fed. Since they’re looking out for my best interests I should be able to vote on my leadership.

It's funny I didn't see BC Fed or BCTF on the ballot last May. Wierd.

ShortSummer, a teacher phoned in and stated that he had a class of 36 on further review he admitted he did not have a class over 26 students, but according to the BCTF math he had 36 students. Then he went on to explain this "special" math.

So how do I know what "math" your using. I guess your using ambiguity to shield propaganda. After all how do we really know how many students you have if you have 2 ways of counting students.

Exactly, serve the public not just the BCTF. They have not forgotten.

I would comment but I hate to interrupt JIm who is apparently now having a discussion with himself and may even be quoting himself! Obviously, no one can reach that level of idiocy so fare well for now!

But before I go I would like to second Coyote's support and backing for the teachers -and all the rest of us who are neither members of the elite or their apologists!

As John Kenneth Galbraith once stated:

Since I posting one quote I'll post one more, and the tyee comes to mind when I think of this one:

I don't know where the above one comes from, but think it is mostly ignored these days!

Right you are, Bud Carlos. There really are dinosaurs after all- I must tell Virginia.

Yo, Jim,

Such scorn- take a deep breath and count to ten. (Thank a teacher that you can count, by the way.) Take care of yourself, my friend. Such anger can't be healthy.

Interestingly, the same factors are are occurring in other parts of Canada. Therefore, they should be having the same problems with teacher contracts that BC is having. Why didn't McMartin include this evidence in his article? Could it be that it flies in the face of his conclusion?

The fact is, regardless of how many teachers are waiting in the wings for a fulltime job, this dispute is about ideology and how teacher contracts are negotiated. You cannot roll the whole problem up into demographics. Just like his election predictions, McMartin is a little off here.

Mr. McMartin needs to get his facts straight. There aren't enough teachers in the lower mainland. We face some of the biggest immigration periods since the baby boomers and they are already having a tough time filling the full-time positions in some rural areas. Mr. McMartin, try again and come back with some better research.

If the courts decide to start throwing our teachers in jail, then they really will see civil disobdience.

Jail teachers, let sex offenders and car theives go.

So why should we respect the law??

An Osgoode Hall law professor was asked, 5 min. ago on CTV, for his opinion of Gordon Campbell's call for B.C. Teachers to "obey the law."

The professor said he didn't think Campbell has much of a case when "the law itself is under question by the United Nations" not to mention the premier's act of tearing up a legal contract already signed by both teachers and government.

No case. Sweet music.

Funny how in Bountiful BC, people can abuse kids any way they like and the gov't doesn't care but if teachers go on strike all the right-wingers can do is cry "think of the children" over and over and give each other hugs when they're not demanding all of the left be thrown in jail.

JIm, Campbell doesn't give a rats ass about you or me. He doesn't legislate for "the people of BC", he legislates based on what business organizations and his Liberal donaters want. He hasn't legislated anything that I could support so he obviously does not represent me or consider my interests as important.

Please, please, please do not ever use that bogus "educator/student ratio in your writing if you wish to be treated with any seriousness by people who really know educational issues.

For years I have argued that we should use meaningful class size language such as "teacher/student." To include principals, vice-principals, counsellors, etc. in the calculation is ridiculous.

All it does is give the ignorant (non-perjorative sense) public the idea that classes are 18:1 or some other false ratio. It's not intellectually honest to use that out-dated and politically loaded term.

Hey Jim, by the way the method of counting students you talk about was thrown out in 2001 when the libs tore up 20 years of negotiations. In the past, say you had a class size maximum of 30. You could have 30 mainstream students or say 24 mainstream and 3 kids (special needs, one student equals 2 counts) and that would equal your total class size. There was also the famous fudge factor that let in 2 extra students after the school year began to accommodate late arrivals.

Although many administrators try and keep it reasonable they need to put the kids somewhere, in high school numbers of 33 to 36 is becoming common and there is no relief because of class composition. Do me a favour, after this is all over drop in to a school for a day and shadow a teacher, it could open yours eye and heart a bit toward the teachers and the students.

There's something we're missing here: do we really need all the corporate flacks that are in circulation? or all the detritus that works in the advertising industry? The long and short is that there are more people in the world than there is real work for them to do. The question is whether all people get to feast at the banquet table, or whether a small group who got there first gets to determing what's work, who gets paid for what and how much each person gets to take away for his labour. Our current system says that we encourage consumption, and those who don't fit the pattern and who don't want to play the game as laid out by Campbell, CanWest, Pattison, Bush, Cheney & Co. (insert here your favourite iteration of the corporate power structure) will be left by the side of the road to wither. I personally would rather have poets, musicians, real journalists and, yes, teachers, than more advertising and promotion folks, and we all need to be more political, more involved and not let politicians of whatever stripe make decisions without a clear mandate to do so (don't tell me that our elections constitute a mandate to do much of anything because no party really lays out what it really wants to do for fear of not getting elected). We need an end to naked self-interest in government and a more developed sense of civic responsibility and concensus in decision-making.

I don't know how the BCTF is counting classroom sizes but I have watched my Intermediate classes increase every year, watched primary classes decrease to meet these "district averages" and watched support for my needy/ESL students drop.

Pre-Liberals my grade four class would have been capped at 26. I now have 30. Thats a big change for these students fresh out of 22 average sized primary classes!

I'm dissapointed to hear that confusing numbers are being used. We need to keep our arguments clear and professional.

One topic that hasn't been brought up is qualifying levels. My students with mild autism (aspergers syndrome) no longer qualify for help because the bar has been raised. Its one way of saving money I suppose but disconcerting when a child who had 15 blocks of support 8 years ago, today would have none.

I'm tired of rhetoric from both sides.

McMartin's column is a very good example of begging the question. It appears he has decided that there are too many teachers in BC which means "Conflict between the BCTF and Victoria may be expected to continue until that 'overpopulation' is rectified." So what did McMartin do? He got some population data, and did a little arithmatic jiggery pokery with it to restate his conclusion in numerical form.

There are, however, a whole slew of problems with McMartin's "data". He himself admits that his population of "educators" includes more than just teachers, so it cannot be used to clearly determine the population of teachers, or student-to-teacher ratios.

Another big flaw with his use of numbers, is in his presupposition that the student-to-teacher ratio should be an unchanging constant, unaffected by the changing needs of society. What was taught in school in 1914 to create citizens educated enough to be contributors to society, way back when class size was first legislated in BC, is undoubtedly different than what needs to be taught in 2005. That undoubtedly holds true for comparisons of 1970 to 2005 as well.

Without further supporting data, McMartin's presupposition would be akin to suggesting BC has an overpopulation of computer programmers in 2005, because there are substantially more of them now than there were in 1970.

So even there are more teachers per student, what could be the reasons? Does an increase in ESL student populations play a role? Is there an increase in special needs students? Does an increase in two working parent and single parent families have any impact? Are there more subjects that have to be taught? McMartin explores none of these issues, because he is only interested in proving his conclusion.

If McMartin wants to use statistics to support his arguments here is a link he might like to explore:
http://tinyurl.co.uk/qpva

But the biggest problem with McMartin's begging the question is that it requires him to intentionally ignore the proverbial elephant in the room. That elephant is the BC Liberal government's criminalizing of teachers' right to strike, and using legistation to force them into working conditions that the BC Liberals find acceptable.

The real story here isn't an overpopulation of teachers, an argument McMartin failed to make in any event. The real story is a radical change in provincial government behaviour.

Whose interests are being served with this change in behaviour? Why are so few in the news media asking this question? For what reasons does McMartin ignore these larger questions?

"Will McMartin is a political consultant who has been affiliated with the Conservative, Social Credit and BC Reform parties."

Ah, now I think we're getting somewhere.

Dear Minniemouse

I am eight years old. Some of my little friends say there are no dinosaurs. Papa says, "if you see in in the Tyee, it's so." Please tell me the truth. Are there dinosaurs?

Virginia O'Hanlon

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the propaganda of a propagandistic age. They do not believe except they are BCTF-ed. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be teachers or principals, are little. In this great universe of ours, educatorial man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as compared with the boundless BCTF about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of its dogma and bombast.

Yes, Virginia, there are dinosaurs. They exist as certainly as self-aggrandizement and greed and devotion to the BCTF exist, and you know that they abound and give to your teacher's life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! How dreary it would be for teachers if there were no dinosaurs? It would be as dreary as if there were no Virginias in a class of 42. There would be no child-like faith, then, no politics, no propaganda, no conflicts to make miserable their existence. They should have no enjoyment, except in strikes and protest. The external light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in dinosaurs? You might as well not believe in the divine right of kings and of teachers. . . . No dinosaurs? Thank God they live and live forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, where teachers fail, dinosaurs will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.

yours,

Francis P. Churchmouse

so why are enrollments declining in our schools, could it be families are leaving the new era of b.c. for better climes to raise their kids, that families can't afford to pay 400,000 for a house on less than 40,000 a year, with both parents working to make ends meet?

I guess the abundance of teachers is why my wife gets harrassed for on call teacher positions because they cannot fill daily vacancies.Hmmm...could that mean a shortage of on call teachers

Jim, it is nice to see you following in the proud tradition of most neocon posties on this site by failing to support your flimsy assertions with evidence.

sdgreen must hate sharing the caucus with the likes of you. He makes a regular effort to support his contentions, or at the very least identify his assumptions.

So here is what you are going to do:

1) Find ten teachers in different grades or subject areas.

2) Ask them about their class size and class composition issues. This will either confirm or deny the validity of BCTF "propaganda" as you call it.

3) Ask them if having fewer students in a class would mean less work.

I'll answer this last question for you. It means the same amount of work, but the kids get more teacher time.

In my own case as an English teacher, I would be able to assign and mark more work than I presently do.

I would still log a fifty hour week, but the students would be more productive.

Presently, large classes, and therefore my total enrollment numbers, are significant impediments to student productivity.

Again, you are in that 10% of the population that still doesn't get it: our struggle to restore working conditions is actually a struggle to restore students' learning conditions.

Get back to me after you've spoken with your ten teachers.

Please don't let anyone fool you into thinking class size doesn't matter, and that there is research to prove it. The research is flawed. Testing usually relies on a multiple choice exam (aka government provincial exam) and in a large class the teaching will change to accommodate such a large class. That change will suit multiple choice tests; there will be more lecturing and rote learning. All the items necessary to do well on a multiple choice exam.

What is lost in a large class? The students lose the chance to demonstrate creativity, literacy, problem solving, imagination, laboratory procedures, debate, and social responsibility etc. This is never tested on standardized multiple choice government exams, moreover it is difficult to test directly. And why even try to turn creativity into a raw number?

I have to admit the average of my 7 classes at high school is about 30. That means some classes average above and some below 30. It takes me about two months to learn all 210 names, but that's all I ever really know about these students - their name. I might get to know a little about a few students only.

I have a class of 34 students using Bunsen burners, hydrochloric acid, a lot of classware, hot plates, knives for dissections etc. But I guess this balances my two classes of 28.

Even at university, they may have a lecture hall of 300, but only 20 in a lab. And some people choose to go to college first before university for the cheaper tuition and smaller classes.

Student's learning conditions = class sizes = teacher's working conditions.

'I guess the abundance of teachers is why my wife gets harrassed for on call teacher positions because they cannot fill daily vacancies.' Actually that's because teachers take time off every time they get a sniffle. They're allowed to bank fifteen a year, even though the national average is five. Third world conditions...

Nemesis, you really should visit with some real classroom teachers. Most of the teachers I worked with came to school when they were so ill they should have been in bed! BTW, did you know that if a teacher gets ill during the night they have to get up, write *detailed* lesson plans for every class, and then send those plans to school by trying to catch some other teacher in their school not so early that they're still in bed, but not so late that they've left for school. Yes, we all do lesson plans in advance, but when the likelihood of getting a toc with experience in my field is somewhat less than zero, minute detail is necessary!!

Well, my my, Bud Carlos,

We must have struck a nerve. Stay calm, grasshopper. Perhaps you and Jim can breath deeply and count to ten together.

After my shift on the picket line, I've indulged myself in a little luxury: watching the Leg. channel during the day. Yesterday I heard (did not read) Carol Taylor advocate for corporate tax cuts. I heard (did not read) Mike De jong call Bill 12 a contract. I heard(did not read) him also say that there was no necessity to discuss in the house the events that were occurring on the leg lawn yesterday afternoon as he spoke. How many ways can we spell arrogance?

In that case he demonstrated to the court, and the judge agreed, that the court could/should not be used to do the "dirty work" for which the government and the legislature had all the tools necessary to complete their work.

The charging of the Cathedral Grove protestors was a "set up", just as the BCTF was set up. I am amazed that Justice Brown in this case allowed herself to fall into the usual trap set by the government."

- from a personal letter.

Just a note to nemesis:
I'm in my 30th year of teaching. I have 427 banked sick days. Do the math. I have taught with a many people throughout my career and have seen many who, like myself, will work through sickness because of the increased difficulty of maintaining continuity in the program while out fo class.

Too many teachers in BC? Hmmm.... no. Too many small-hearted and small-brained politicians? Yes.

Nemesis provides a good example of how to come up with a Liberal "average" here. Make it up.

Our local district has been provided with a great number of ways to count students using Liberal Math. (The basic formula is this: exclude whatever classes you need to in order to keep the average under 30.) I find it easiest to count the bodies in my classroom. For research on what differences class size makes to learning outcomes, check the STAR report. I don't need a study - and neither does anyone who has spent time in a room with more than two children at a time. Pretty basic.

'will work through sickness because of the increased difficulty of maintaining continuity in the program while out fo class.' So much for continuity Danneau. The kids have been out for seven days now, with no end in sight. The bottom line here is that the teachers don't really give a shite about those students who must write their provincial exams in January or June. As usual they care only about themselves and their ridiculous unionist political rhetoric. Correction. I believe that most teachers don't fall into the above category, but they're the ones being used by the leftist 'cope classic' freak fringe who are leading them down a path of destruction. How do you people plan on explaining this illegal action to your students? 'We can break the law but you can't because we're the BCTF and our leader told us to?' Give me a break. You people are delusional.

Dallas; I know plenty of teachers, and most of them would like to be back in the classroom but are intimidated by the bullying tactics of their 'brothers and sisters'. BTW; here's an example of great leadership: the BCTF is scared whitless of private education b/c it doesn't jive with their world vision and they have no control in that area, yet they've spent the past year dissing our public system to no end. Talk about pretzel logic. The private schools are laughing their heads off right about now. Must feel good to have such an intelligent leader.

(from Nemesis)

I know I'm talking to the wind here - and a bad wind at that - but let me explain again that we told our leader what to do, not the other way around. We also told her we won't go back until we VOTE to go back.

I have now been called a lawbreaker by Gordon Campbell and "delusional" by Nemesis. A pattern is developing. I expect a call from George Bush calling me a warmonger later today.

The big question seems to be whether or not teachers deserve a raise. After all, how hard can their job be? They get summers and all other vacation times off, they apparently only work 6 hours a day, so what are they complaining about? If they have marking to do at home, maybe they shouldn’t give out so much homework. The students probably don’t need to learn that much anyhow.

What can be so hard about trying to teach a child who doesn’t want to learn? What is so stressful about seeing children come to school without breakfast, without proper supplies? Sure, these teachers put up with being threatened by students and parents alike, and occasionally they are assaulted by students and/or parents. What’s so bad about that? (This is just from an elementary school viewpoint, just wait until those kids get into high school and really get an attitude)

How hard can it be to teach a class of 25 with only 17 textbooks? What’s wrong with spending personal or instructional time making photocopies so all children have the opportunity to learn equally? Teachers also have the nerve to spend their own money buying supplies so little Johnnie or Janie have something to take home on Mothers day or Fathers day. Let’s forget the look of pride on a child’s face when they bring home something special they’ve made.They often spend their own money to make sure there are books in the classrooms for students to read because there is no librarian available to check books out on a regular basis. What gall these teachers have!

We can also forget that when there is a threat to the school, either man-made or natural, teachers have to put their own fears aside to make sure the children entrusted to them are safe. So do teachers really deserve a raise? Do they deserve to have smaller, more manageable class sizes and the proper resources with which to teach these classes? Every night I tuck in two reasons that prompt me to say yes, teachers deserve our respect and support in these matters. Aren’t your children worth it?

On The Ligher Side...

A dedicated Teamsters Union worker was attending a
convention in Las Vegas and, as you would expect,
decided to check out the local brothels nearby.

When he got to the first one, he asked the Madam, "Is
this a union house?"

"No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100.00, what cut do the girls get?"

"The house gets $80.00 and the girls get $20.00."

Mightily offended at such unfair dealings, the man
stomped off down the street in search of a more equitable,
hopefully unionized shop. His search continued until
finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded,
"Why yes sir, this IS a Union House."

The man asked, "And if I pay you $100.00, what cut do
the girls get?"

"The girls get $80.00 and the house gets $20.00"

"That's more like it!" the Teamster said. He handed
the Madam $100.00, looked around the room and pointed
to a stunningly attractive blonde. "I'd like her for the night."

"I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam, then gesturing
to an 85-year old woman in the corner, "but Ethel here
has Seniority".

Cuinn; Your union is nowhere near as democratic as you might think. If it were the 50% of the teachers who did not vote to take an illegal strike action would not feel so intimidated about returning to their classrooms. They know they'll be bullied and harassed while crossing the line and when work resumes. Without that this thing would have lasted probably 2 days, 5 max.

Nemesis:

It's funny that when the gov't and democracy are mentioned we're all supposed to suck it up and abide by the supposed majority opinion, because the present gov't won by getting the most votes. But when unions are mentioned, we should all be allowed to do whatever we want as individuals and pay no heed to the majority opinion as expressed by... a vote.

Can you explain in itty-bitty words for me why you're not contradicting your supposed reverence for the democratic process? And, before you tell me there's no other option for teachers but the public school system, I'll just say that teachers can choose to work within the public system, or seek employment with a private school, become a tutor, etc. So that argument doesn't wash.

Further to the brothel joke. In reality, what would happen is the payment would go into a communal pot,the most senior prostitute would probably have more say over work assignments, and the "client" would probably get the least senior "employee" for their pleasure.

So, the joke is barely funny, and totally inaccurate.

sorry to rain on your parade

Nemesis
So if our union is undemocratic, what about our own government. I don't remember the exact numbers, but you'll get the point. This government was elected with about 50% of the vote, while only 60% of the population actually bothered to show up and vote. That's makes about 30% of the actual population. Isn't there an expression about a pot and a black kettle?
It's a sad reality of democracies.

Whoever governs must remember that they are there to serve the public, not the other way around. The government or union leadership must remember that they represent everyone, not just those who voted for them.

I believe the following figures are pertinent to the debate. In the May election, 26% of eligible voters cast ballots for the Gliberals. Gordon Campbell received only 45.98% of the vote in his riding.

The Gliberals had four years to get their vote out; the teachers had at most two days.

In any case, teachers have voted with their feet.

I am a parent with two children who are affected by this job action. I have had to find alternate sources of daycare for my children. I don't believe that anyone deserves over 15% in wage increases over the terms of their next contract...and yet, I still believe in the fight of the BCTF.
If you allow a government, any government to impose a contract on a group of people, then you allow them to do anything they choose to do. I fully believe in their fight and I applaud them for doing what is right. I know the government says that they have broken the law...but isn't it convenient how the laws change to be exactly what this government wants it to be....
I wonder how long it will be before having a blood alcohol level of .08 is not above the legal limit anymore?

I don't agree there is teacher over population but I do see over population in certain specialties.
For example, the common combination of English/Social Studies often means spending a long time on the TOC list or unemployed.
If you choose to teach math, science, home economics, special ed or tech ed then you are in demand & can most likely be very selective about where you want to work.
My teaching specialties Home Economics & Special Ed so I have had no problem at all finding a job.

Just thinking- the last time I read analysis of numbers by Will McMartin was on the Tyee site during the provincial election. His predictions, based on nothing but numbers as opposed to the perceptions and issues of people on the street, were off by a long-shot.

To reduce the current dispute to numbers related to demographics is to take the heart out of the matter. Will doesn't imagine that we came up with our current plan of action based on demographic analysis, does he?

rkewen, great quote you found there. Since you believe in it so much...

It would appear the BCTF is quite comfortable in its current smugness, so I guess you won't mind if the media has at them.

I'm thinking that nemesis and Ron Erwin don't have children or if they do, their children must not attend public school. This would explain why they have absolutely no idea what goes on in a public school classroom. It amazes me that such narrow minded, hypocritical people even have the gall to post for all to see! Good thing this is anonymous, for them!
nemesis: I find it hard that you have friends who are teachers. They must not know your inner contempt for what they do.

I'm sure you've put your best effort forward Eln but you're absolutely wrong, of course. Two kids, both in public school. Been involved in Pacs, school reading programs and coaching for 16 years. I know the system very well. Why do you think I have such a high regard for the good teachers and such disgust and disdain for the bad ones. BTW; I've noticed while driving past the ILLEGAL PICKET LINES that the freeloaders seem to be the most vocal and active. What a coincidence! "The union makes us strong!"

While many troglodites scrape the swamp for dirt, I think this information is a highlight for today:

At 5:30AM I just heard on the CBC radio that the prosecutors of British Columbia have announced that they WILL NOT act to prosecute any teachers or BCTF leaders who are criminally charged as they feel they would be biased. This is a result of their own experiences with this government and its refusal to negotiate in good faith. They have launched a lawsuit against the government over the government's failure to live up to agreements.

Now at 6:30AM there is more info re: the crown prosecutors.

It appears that this is why Gordo's gang retained Len Daoust, as the Assoc. of Crown Counsels informed the AG on Friday that they would be unable to prosecute the teachers as the teachers' situation was too similiar to their own and thus they might well be biased.

Of course (no surprise) the Fiberals didn't really explain why they appointed the "special" prosecutor, I guess they found it embarrassing to admit their regular prosecutors were busy prosecuting them for the same kind of high handed disrepect for people and the law.

If Wally Oppal has any respect for the law and/or justice he must be wondering why he decided to leave the bench, and cast his lot with this gang of liars and thieves. If not, it's probably best that he did step down from the bench.

As a TOC, I'd just like to add something to Will's article: While salary is obviously a consideration when it comes to any job (and keep in mind that 1/5 of a full-time salary is really not very much), I think another "key consideration" not cited by the article is the following:

Many teachers actually really enjoy teaching. There is a non-monetary job satisfaction that comes from seeing students become successful, seeing the same set of kids each day, and knowing that your lessons have paid off. From becoming involved in the school community. From coaching teams and helping put on the Christmas concert and supervising dances.

The same goes for TOCs... as trained teachers, we enjoy those non-monetary benefits of teaching as well.

However, when you're seeing a different set of kids each day, teaching subjects that you aren't specialized in, and, in general, being a journeyman, it can become less rewarding over time. I've just started TOCing, and so far, I've enjoyed it immensely. But many TOCs want to become full-time teachers because we like teaching in the fullest sense of the word.

As schools close down and class sizes grow, many teachers who would really just enjoy seeing the same class everyday and becoming involved in the school community in general are not given that opportunity.

"Why do you think I have such a high regard for the good teachers and such disgust and disdain for the bad ones."

Just think about the quality of instructors we could attract by offering better wage and working conditions. Isn't that how 'the market' would do it?

And, just how do you discern that the most vocal are the worst? Your bias is showing.

nemesis: "in a classroom"

It's not clear to me what happens next, if the Crown Prosecutors of B.C. can't move against the B.C.T.F. (as instructed) because they too are in that same battle ...

Anyone care to comment on that? It seems to me that it's an absolutely crucial question.

Wow what a great idea you have devised Nemesis. If we don't like a law because we did'nt vote for the Libs or didn't vote at all we can completely ignore it. Right.

Who said anything about doing anything illegal moron?

Obviously your wife must spend much of her time home schooling you in the proper use of words to invest her time in schooling other special needs children.I've worked in the Education world for the past 20 years throughout the Van School Board and have never seen the militancy or free loaders you attest to have seen. The only militancy I have seen is how Art program money is to be divided between Drama Music and Dance.As for freeloaders. Take a walk or no spend a week at any East side school and see the dedication of teachers within that building. The dedication of the Engineers the custodians the administrators the cafeteria workers. To say that teachers don't give a shite about the children is a clue to me that you do not understand the situation at all. P.S. What do you coach? Neo Con 101

October 18, 2005

ROBBINS Sce Research (1998)_
robbinssceresearch.com

{first released 9:35 P.S.T.}
For immediate Release

Highlights
·Parents with a child or children in K-12 public schools currently not willing to sacrifice spring break or summer vacation to make up for lost school time
·Parents with a child or children in K-12 public schools have no idea how class composition is actually derived.
·Democratic elections more important than Rule of Law
·Only two-thirds of respondents believe elected officials should make laws, one-third believes people should make laws, less than ten per cent (10%) think courts should make laws.
·Majority of decided respondents are of the opinion that not all laws are created equally.
·Majority of respondents on teacher’s side.
·Over one-quarter of respondents are ‘sick of all this’.

Question #1-Which of the following two choices BEST describes you?
(a) I have a child or children in BC public schools (K-12)- (26%); (b) I do not have children in BC schools- (68%); (c) I have a child or children in an independent BC school- (06%).

Question #1(A) {to respondents who have a child or children in BC public schools}.
Are you willing to permit your children to be kept in class during the spring break or part of the summer holidays to make up for lost school time we are experiencing?
Yes-(17%); No-(83%).

Question #1(B) {for respondents who have a child or children in BC public schools}.
Are you aware of the term Full Time Equivalent as this relates to class size in BC schools? Yes-(2%); No- (98%).

Question #2-In your opinion which is the most important element of a free democracy? (a) The Rule of Law- (12%) (b) Open, fair and honest elections- (88%)

Question #3-Who should make the laws in British Columbia?
(a) The courts- (09%); (b) Elected officials- (63%); (c) The people through referenda- (28%).

Question #4-When you consider the democratic principal known as the Rule of Law which of the following statements BEST depicts how you perceive this principle?
(a) People are elected to make laws, and each and every law should be respected equally- (36%); (b) Not all laws are created equally, there are laws on the books that have served us well and others that likely need changing or removal- (48%); (c) Undecided- (16%)

Question #5-Who do you support MOST?
(a) The teachers’ civil obedience relating to classroom needs and teachers’ wages- (37%); (b) The BC Liberal governments demand for teachers to return to work educating students and to obey the law- (32%); (c) I do not support either the teachers or the government, frankly I am sick of all of this- (26%); (d) Undecided- (04%).

Once Vince Ready has completed his investigation into how the collective bargaining process failed to work in the B.C. Teachers dispute, perhaps the U.S., Canadian, and B.C. governments could contract him to try and find out why the NAFTA Dispute Resolution process doesn't work in the case of the softwood lumber dispute.

Your logic speaks for you, idiot. Can your tricycle hold up to all this backpedaling you do?

Robbins: please go away and count something. Sheesh.

maybe it's all a big distraction.

did anyone else notice that Terasen is about to be sold to an American company?

The suit is a response to the Crown Counsel Agreement Continuation Act (Bill 21) passed March 3, 2005. Bill 21 voids two arbitration awards in favour of B.C.’s prosecutors (Taylor 2004 and Jones 2005). The Jones award was binding on both parties and awarded B.C.’s four hundred Crown counsel much needed improvements to working conditions and a thirteen percent wage increase retroactive to 2003. Bill 21 voided the arbitration awards, gutted provisions of the existing contract with Crown counsel, and imposed a four-year-contract that provides no increases in the first three years, and a thirteen percent increase in April, 2006, the fourth and final year.

Launching the suit on behalf of the British Columbia Crown Counsel Association, Association President Michael Van Klaveren said, “This Government agreed to and participated in arbitration. When that produced a result the Government didn’t like, it simply passed legislation voiding the decision and tearing up its contractual commitments.” Van Klaveren added, “The Rule of Law applies to everyone in British Columbia, especially the government. The Rule of Law does not permit bad faith and arbitrary government action. Just because you make the law does not mean you are above the law. This unprecedented legislation violates the Rule of Law and simply cannot be allowed to stand”.

Van Klaveren added, “Arbitrator Jones found that the Attorney General, by failing to implement the recommendations of the 2004 arbitration panel, headed by Colin Taylor Q.C, had not acted in good faith, rationally or legitimately. Instead of complying with Jones’ order to implement those recommendations, the Government passed Bill 21 which gutted our agreement, voided the Taylor and Jones arbitration awards and continues the actions condemned by Mr. Jones.”

“Bill 21 harms the public interest,” said Van Klaveren. “The Arbitrators’ awards are necessary to ensure we retain and recruit effective and experienced counsel to deal successfully with increasingly complex cases such as Robert Pickton, Air India, Kelly Ellard and Eron Mortgage. The Arbitrators’ awards provided that adequate resources would be available to ensure the safety and security of the citizens of British Columbia.”

Crown counsel are represented by Joseph Arvay Q.C., of the firm Arvay Finlay.

For more information please contact:

Michael Van Klaveren
President, BC Crown Counsel Association
Phone: 604-775-0987
Cell: 604-880-8985
For a complete copy of the Writ and Statement of Claim please visit our website at:
bccrowncounselassociation.bc.ca

Does this sound familar of some of these teachers leftist camrade WorkingMan Nemesis

Try the site for some enlightening letters

Ah, what malarkey. The current fight has nothing to do with numbers of teachers, salaries or working conditions. It has everyting to do with the right of people to associate and to bargain collectively. Do away with repressive legislation. Do away with regressive governments that misuse legislative power to serve their hateful and destructive agendas, ignoring hteir own courts and scoffing at the constitution.
Do away with these and the whole mess will fall into reasonable place, albeit imperfect in an imperfect world. After all the Jims,and Rons of the world will still exist to spew their vitriol and to deny anyone but themselves the freedom to the experience a civil and enjoyable life, whatever the hell that might be.

Teachers' strike is about much more than money
Times Colonist (Victoria), Sat 15 Oct 2005
Column: Sucha Ollek

Betrayal of Public Education:

It is a matter of trust. Sadly, Campbell's word means nothing to teachers, nurses, social workers, seniors, ferry workers, the poor,and now children. Campbell will open the doors to offshore private for profit educational management companies. "Just what you were after right"? He will offer you tax rebates if you put your kid in a private school, provided you have money. Lets look at what the Mike Harris government did in Ontario. Campbell has Harris's old play book. 8 years from now you'll hardly recognize the public school system in BC. Public education will be gone in exchange for profit/private schools. Good you say!!! Get rid of those “f” teachers !! They're the ones causing all the problems in BC anyway. I wish your province luck. You'll need it in finding cheaper and better teachers. As a teacher for the past 15 years and under constant attack the entire time, I feel I have been left with no other choice than to put my house up on the market and get out of Dodge. You've sold out all your natural resources and now you're selling off your own people. Who in their right mind would ever want to come here to teach? Americans, Japanese, and South Africans, that's who. Your education system will be run by Japanese and American corporations. Your teachers will be paid by the hour. They will have little or no benefits, and certainly no rights. The public schools still left standing will take on the American look and feel of an inner city ghetto. Perfect!!! You say. The sooner the better.

What I know today, I acquired aprés-school. School grounded me in reading, writing, and 'rithmetic, which is the original purpose of the public shcool system. It also should imbue students with a sense of scholastic curiosity. But it cannot hope to "be all things to all people". As a result of trying to be, the vast majority of students graduate with little more than the aformentioned reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.

The public school could easily accommodate privatizaton in the form of grants and patronage from businesses (who ought to be thinking about the future and less about the immediate bottom line). IN fact, it should be an obligation, instead of school as yet another, however indirect, subsidy for business.

Perhaps, had business assumed an interest in education (other than putting invending machines), we may not have landed in the trade shortage we are now experiencing.

BC Mary-we released our poll (see above) at the time provided for, and Ipsos Reid about one hour later releases one which confirms our core numbers vis-a-vis support for teachers.

Our poll goes out to some 30,000 individuals new agencies, elected officials, and special interests groups and there is a deal (nearly) done a couple of days later. (you may want to visit my blogs relating to solutions to the teacher's strike) and compare them to Mr. Ready's recommendations).

Naturally, you seem to not think these polling numbers are relevant to a blog, as opposed to say your individual opinion.

I hope the Tyee can find it within their 'braintrust' to more seriously consider BC Mary's sentiment about such blogs as they review any future formats.

Also, on the BC Green site, one of my political consultants telephoned me to suggest I was too generous when I said Adriane Carr's Greens would not get more than 5% in the next provincial general election.

After this latest teacher's strike I retain the right to reduce this number downward upon further consultation with the BC public.

Robbins (whoever you are): my difficulty with you is that you cannot honestly declare yourself as neutral, fair, or free of bias, when you frequently are proselytizing on a site clearly set up to invite personal opinions.

I question the respondents in your polling, although your spelling and punctuation errors blur the exact meaning of your comment: "Our poll goes out to some 30,000 individuals new agencies, elected officials, and special interests groups" ...

No, I do not care to visit your blog ... try to accept an honest answer. I don't even want to talk to you. Much of what you say is garbled.

I dislike the whole notion of a so-called pollster coming onto a news site and then arguing with the commentors about their right to participate. How fair and neutral is that.

And kindly stop trying to tell me what I think. Surely even a pollster doesn't find that too difficult to understand? Perhaps mind-bending is an unavoidable, on-the-job injury for pollsters.

Oh. I forgot. You're providing a public service. Ha ha ha ha ha ...

BC Mary please allow commentary from any source, or leave.

ROBBINS Sce Research please keep up the good commentary with supporting arguments, even if they are derived from polling, you at least give the values and the source of questions. Many other pollsters do not.

Right om, Murdock, I too find Robbin's research of value, and further, commend him for responding pro-actively to the scolding we gave him a while back.

It might not be relevant at this point in the discussion but I feel like I need to clarify one concept. A TOC is NOT a "part time" teacher. Many TOC's are beginning teachers who work 5 days a week most weeks in the school year. Most don't choose to be doing TOC work, they are working towards full time contracts (very difficult in some districts). Part-time teachers are those of us who choose to take less than a 1.0 FTE. Most of us have contracts that ensure our ongoing status. TOC's do not and are reliant upon daily call outs or short term positions to work.