Does Murray Dobbin have any names of local quislings, other than the possible exception of the members of the BCUC, that we cantact/lean on? To prevent a fire in the Reichstag, we need to confiscate the matches right?

Too much foreign ownership just means that too much profit will be flowing out of the country. It only makes sense to encourage local ownership of our most crucial resources. You think the US would allow China to buy up their resources? Ya, right!

Ron Erwin must be having an orgasm over the sale of Teresen. Why the fools in this country want so much to sell off our natural resources is beyond my ken.

Oh yes, I bet those who drool over the prospect of the Teresen sale own shares in the company or Kinder Morgan. This is Canada, screw the future, lets party today.

The public had better start doing something soon or we will not have a say period.

Grumpy' have you got a smoke ?

the friendly folks at Kinder-Morgan are making plans for all that extra gas.
http://tinyurl.com/b6cbe

"a proposed new natural gas pipeline that would link producing areas in the Rocky Mountain region to the upper Midwest and Eastern United States. As designed, the 42-inch diameter pipeline would have capacity of up to 2 billion cubic feet per day "

Our top priority should be the security of supply for the future of BC. So long as the BC Utilities Commission does a preoper job at making sure the company acts properly, that is enough. The nationality of the capitalists who own the company is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter that the BC government is watching them. They find ways for successful planned failure to drive up the cost of gas. Example; Enron, purposely ignored problems...so when it all went to hell,they cleaned up.
Question for Ron though;'

Ron Realistically, why do you see the sale of our resources to a foreign corp to be a good thing. There's nothing in it for us. True capitalism would be the citizens of BC saying.. "hey, that's ours... let's make some money off of it." Not saying..." Oh, Capitalism means one person owns this, so let's sell our future out."

Unfortunately Terasen is as good as sold. They already state on their website as have being purchased by Kinder Morgan. I lament this sale greatly. The corporate strategy will shift to a broader North American context which will see profit in selling to the US end game. Indeed infrastructure will be built in BC to supply this vast market while our infrastructure will be maintained only to the level that current contracts require. Skilled management jobs and shareholder revenue will bleed to the south, and profits made through these sales will be channelled to head office for further expansion. Profits made from British Columbia customers may well fuel Kinder Morgans growth strategy in places such as Alberta, the US or Latin America. This is another reason we need strong opposition which has the means of vocalizing the impacts of such fireside sales of our critical infrastructure.

Martin, security of supply was sold down the river with NAFTA. That horse has left the barn long ago.

Martin says:

.

Never was there a more stupid statement... but absolutely representative of the neo-con view and its inability to think critically.

Nationality is of utter relevance. We should own and control our own resources... that's if we are smart and wish to control our own future.

This self-interested quest for oil by the US, whether it be in Iraq ( a brutal sham and a shameful invasion) or in Afghanistan (a ruse to run pipelines from the Caspian Sea) is the creation of worldwide arteries (pipelines) to pump more and more oil into the greedy heart of corporate america. To keep that faltering heart pumping at the expense of freedom all over the world.

But what you don't get, Martin, is that along with this quest for oil, comes a loss of automony for each of the countries the US victimizes. We not only lose our resources and our profits, we lose control of our future.

And as the US plunders for oil, it becomes necessary to control those oil arteries... so its victims, whatever their nationality, their country, are with cruel irony held hostage to a Patriot Act that is not even of their own making... the new allegiance must become to oil itself, to corporations.

And if you have been paying attention you will notice that The Infamous US Patriot Act now ranges worldwide and terrorizes worldwide...as does the grip of the US Department of Homeland Security... trepassing far and wide beyond its borders in the interests of greed and oil, suspending the rule of law in the US as it will do here with the help of the quislings here in Canada intent on selling out our country. That is the real danger. We have a country to lose in this swindle.

Paul William Roberts, writes in an article in The Globe and Mail of the liberties that have already fallen:

"The Department of Homeland Security, along with the Patriot Act, has effectively suspended the rule of law in the United States — citizens can now be searched or arrested without a warrant, imprisoned without trial, tried by secret military tribunal, tortured or executed in secrecy. Their phones can be tapped, mail read, Internet monitored, and what they read at or borrow from the library can be analyzed for signs of deviancy. The guarantees of personal liberty in the Constitution have been trampled over."

Jamez, The world is flat. We can't hide around the corner. Canadians don't have enough money to develope our own resources. The only way out for your argument is to nationalize our resource sector. That's what communists do.
I don't promote communism. But over 60% of Canadians do, if you have seen some of the polls taken lately.
I am not with you on this, it seems you are selfish and expect to screw the rest of the world to benefit only Canadians.
It's a global economy and we better get with it .

C.I.R.E.

A province run by shopkeepers.

Everything is for sale.

"I am not with you on this, it seems you are selfish and expect to screw the rest of the world to benefit only Canadians."

Yeah, damn right Screw the rest of the world. You think other nations of stature are selling of their resources? No, they aren't - many have laws against it, as we used to. If that was a plan that worked well for people the world bank wouldn't need to blackmail third world nations into privatizing their resources.

Also, we don't need to nationalize our resources to develop them. Terasen has beaten out Kinder Morgan on bids for smaller outfits in the past... they have the money. Either way Kinder Morgan is just buying terasen to get to Alberta oil... thus far KM has no plans to expand the system, meaning the current pipeline system is adequate. So there goes the development argument out the window, which by the way isn't even an issue that I've heard hammered in this case.

And screwing the rest of the world is what we are doing by allowing a resource to be controlled by a bunch of bastards like Kinder Morgan that will do whatever they can to cut corners and save money at the sacrifice of reliable service and safety.

Jamez, well I guess we will agree to diagree.

Corky Evans in fine form at the leg:

"Last Friday the hon. member for Vancouver-Hastings and I go over to Vancouver. I thought lots of folks opposite would be there with me. I thought we'd be shoulder to shoulder to say that maybe it's not a good idea to sell our natural gas company, at a time of energy crises all over the world, to another country. Oh. Hon. Speaker, not only was there no mention of natural gas in the throne speech, but the Minister of Energy wasn't in Vancouver. His staff weren't.

Anyway, here's us standing over there, and what does the lawyer representing the folks from Texas say? He says: "You know what? Who owns the natural gas, the energy resources of British Columbia, is no longer a matter of public policy. The Utilities Commission shouldn't really go to Castlegar and have hearings where pulp mill workers could talk about their need for pulp. They ought not to go to the smelters and ask about their need for natural gas. They ought not go to the constituencies that members opposite and folks over here represent, all the way from Fort Nelson to the U.S. border. They should go to Vancouver, because it's no longer a problem of the public interest."

You know what, hon. Speaker? These folks…. I know they're wonderful people, but they're paid to say outrageous things. He then says, "And another thing is that here in Vancouver we don't actually want to let anybody speak. It can all be done in writing," which means that it can be done by lawyers. And then he says: "Can you commissioners get it done by September 29? The stockholders are having a meeting, and we'd like to have the deal done when we have our meeting."

I was stunned, the hon. member next to me was stunned, and there was nobody over there to say, "Yes, the public interest needs to be defended here," except the opposition. I was there, and I thought: where is the government? I thought: I know. This the biggest issue of public policy in British Columbia alive today. They're going to wait until the throne speech, so the press will see them. They're going to get up in the throne speech and say: "We're defending British Columbia's resources for British Columbians."

So I'm sitting here, and the Lieutenant-Governor is there. I'm waiting for your actual intervention caring about anything that's going on. It wasn't there. Hon. Speaker, you didn't hear it. You know what's going on? The government of the day is giving us slogans, "Five great years" or whatever it is — golden, whatever — because they have decided that the role of the government to intervene on behalf of the citizens is over. Now resources belong to stockholders, and the role of government is to manage for the corporate folks of the world to come here and buy and sell or open or close or lock out — whatever they need to do — because it's the globalist corporate sector that will drive our economy and not the people sitting there."

Ezekiel 16: 16:49 "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy." Sounds like the sins of the Sodomites were that of a Capitalist. So the Capitalists are the real queers. Thanks for the insight, Ron.

Ron: I think time will tell on this one

Ron, are you sure that we don't have enough money to develop our own resources? I invest in Canadian companies. Hell, I invest in companies all over the world, just like everyone else.

Do Canadian companies really have a miserable time raising capital? No. So spare us the bullshit, please.

I agree I read the Corky Evans letter and I am glad they appointed him to this role. But we all need to be more involved and let the Government know that we don't like this and "five great years" is not worth the cost of the loss of all of publc resources.

Exactly Dave, you invest in companies all over the world. And people from all over the world invest here. It's that simple, you nailed it.
It seems some would like this to be illegal or something, I really don't understand where they are comong from.

Ron,

I'm not sure I see how nationalising provincial resources is equivalent to communism. I believe it was WAC Bennett who nationalised BC Hydro, hardly a communist.

C.I.R.E.

Coalition to Ignore Ron Erwin.

Get on board.

Feeding trolls, even when they are manufacturing a pretense at reasonableness is a mugs game.

FYI Canada is a far bigger investor in the U.S. than U.S. is in Canada. Ergo far more profit flowing into Canada than out. Terasen is a private company, probably owned by you in your pension fund or R.RS.P. and TOTALLY regulated by you via B.C. Utilities Commisssion.

I heard of a funny story about investing abroad. The Ontario Teachers Pension Fund recently bought an entire widget factory in the US ( sorry, I can't remember the name of the company )
This company only makes one item. They only have one customer. And who do you think this customer is ? Wal Mart. Talk about ironic ?

i might just head to canadian tire and buy a bunch of little electric heater and wean myself off natural gas.

i usually don't agree with mr erwin but i think he's right on this one. we canadians are global traders and investors and as such we can't cry wolf every time a foreign company wants to buy something in canada.

if kinder morgan's bid was too low there would be higher bids but i haven't seen any. also, its not as if teresan was a corporate angel giving us a break on natural gas. teresan maximized profits at every opportunity.

Let's get something straight: there is considerable consensus regarding the roles of both public and private enterprise. Few on the left argue for the socialization of all the widget factories, and few on the right argue for the privatization of the schools and hospitals.

There are some areas where we see disagreement: utilities, auto insurance, ferry services, etc. The important question should be this: are the interests of British Columbians best served by the continued privatization of these areas? I see no evidence that this is so.

It's amusing watching the NDP bleat about big bad Americans buying our biggest natural gas company, when they sat back and did nothing when Weyerhauser bought BC's biggest forestry company, Mac Bloe.

Good one, Davey-boy!

The interests of BC citizens don't enter into the equation. In fact when sales of this nature are examined citizens are considered only insofar as it is understood that they are the captive market and are therefore to be thought of only as a profit centre.

We as taxpayers of BC funded the development of the infrastructure of the company while it was a Crown Corporation. We as ratepayers further funded the development through paying BC Gas for the heating of our homes and businesses. Successive governments of BC considered that ownership of this utility and delivery system to be important enough to specifically and deliberately exclude the possibility of a majority *off* shore ownership through legislation.

Only now, under this current government, is it considered to be desireable that ownership be foreign. I say "desireable" as opposed to merely acceptable because this government went out of their way to remove the old Vanderzalm clause preventing a foreign takeover.

There was no evident pressing need for the legislative change, Terasen was experiencing no special difficulty, there was no clamour for foreign investors, nor indeed a particular clamour for any new investment foreign or domestic. Shareholder value was strong and returns were above average. Debt to earnings ratios were not problematic and were dropping steadily in any case. Cash flow was strong and cash on hand had increased significantly as of the end of '04.

It was simply decided by Campbell's Liberals to throw it on the selling block and see what happened.

Why?

I say follow the money.

I smell a rat.

Martin, I never did understand that one either.

What is the supposed to be the good thing about this deal? Usually Campbell has some great day for BC reason why everything he does is golden. What have I missed with this deal? My gas prices have gone through the roof over the last five years. Is this deal going to make things cheaper? Somehow I doubt that. What am I missing here?

A comment to Martin about the American’s buying MacBlo. That one I always find interesting. We all complain about Americans and softwood lumber but isn’t it mostly American’s that own all of our mills anyway ? Seems like American’s screwing Americans and us Canadians caught in the middle as usual.

MacBlo was in deep trouble and needed a buyer badly.

Terasen is not, was not and does not.

The US lumber interests aren't screwing each other as much as they're assembling an enormous fund in all those tariffs that, when eventually turned over to them, will allow them to capitalize desperately needed upgrades to their dilapidated mills.

Murray Dobbin writes:

And that is the point for all you American wannabees...Americans would never make this kind of a deal. They are much craftier than that.

When a Chinese conglomerate a couple of months ago attempted to acquire majority interest in Unocal Corp. (founded 115 years ago as Union Oil of California) the proposed takeover sent shivers down the spine of Capitol Hill, where the possible takeover was referred to as a "national security issue".

Did the Americans (like Campbell's Liberals) decide to sell off this vital national resource ( and one in critically short supply to boot) into foreign hands?

NO, they didn't... worried about the financial thin ice it would cause, they sold Unocal instead to another American company, Chevron.

So we have to ask (as Banquo's ghost suggests) WHY did the Campbell Liberals decide to sell such a critical asset to our province to the Americans?

I, too, smell a rat.
And a quisling of a rat at that.

That has to be the worst kind of a rat.

Davey Boy, I think you're dreaming when you say nobody wants to privatize schools and hospitals. The right wants to do exactly that, and are engaged in a campaign to basically destroy the credibility and the public's confidence in both these sytstems. Private schools, inferior public schools, overstretched hospitals, long waiting lists, it's all part of a program to get everything privatized. The public consensus is under serious fire and taking hits daily.

If it wasn't for the climate and the Queen, we would be a banana republic.

Ron:

You mentioned that most Canadians are selfish and want to screw the rest of the world. But isn'tthat what the USA has done time and time again? The long list of UN vetoes made by the USA speaks for itself. Moreover, the USA's non-participation in the Kyoto Protocol as well as environmental discussions at the G8 summits is indicative of a country that wants to look out for its interests only at the expense of everyone else.

Perhaps your politics differ from the American government's, but if that is the case, the don't be so naive to think that Canadians would be selfish to maintain control of their assets.

In big business would it not be normal practice to do some due diligence on who your prospective purchaser might be when putting together a billion dollar deal ? More so if that company is to take control of your gas supply network? Is there no such thing as a reference check in Campbells basic background business experience?

So far it seems like the only due diligence being done is by the Tyee, and there is nothing positive about the Kinder Morgan track record. Are we going to fine them every month they cannot get a certain amount of gas through without a breakdown ? Or will some BCUC bureaucrat silently change the terms of reference on what is considered to be a breakdown from an environmental perspective.

This deal makes about as much sense as CUPE pulling the plug on Telus.

I couldn't agree with lynn more. While preaching a "global economy", the US has some of the most protectionist laws that insulate American business from competition and risk. Has anyone checked out the recent changes to being able to declare yourself bankrupt in the US? Talk about a screwjob to the average American.

Isn't the government (ie. you and I) the one that's benefitting from high petroleum/gas prices? The government owns the resources and royalty revenues (taxes by any other name) are way up, and Terasen or any other buyer is paying more at the wellhead and passing the increased expense along to fossil fuel users (ie. you and I). And in a sense it's what the Kyoto Accord is all about — the largest users pay more, and more, and some of us freeze in the dark.

Theoretically, the government has more money to spread around ("redistribute") to taxpayers, although after taking care of friends, special interest groups and lobbyists (whether they be corporate or social programs) not much ever trickles down to common everyday taxpayers (ie. you and I). But, hey, we can have a great argument about what to spend it all on, can't we?

Mr. Nalleweg, I agree that there is an agenda held by some on the right to privatize schools and hospitals etc. Upon closer inspection, you will note that my exact words were "few on the right...", and I do believe that the privatization wing nuts are a minority.

Sadly, that minority view dominates the CanWest corporation, and the results are pretty damned obvious to most of us.

Am I dreaming? Perhaps only a little.

Kurt, perhaps you may have may made one of the lapses I specialise in, but still, I wonder what you meant by the line I've bolded below:

1/Do you really think corporate programs are the same as social programs?
2/Do you really think money spent on social programs is NOT spent on the "common everyday taxpayer"?

Just wondering.

Both Enbridge and Transcanada corp have purchased significant pipeline systems in the US.

And how much crude or natural gas from United States located wells or refineries do Enbridge or Transcanada pipe into Canada?

I think that all that money you refer to, Kurt, actually "trickles up" to the privileged few and that's a big part of the problem.

The Government of Canada recognizes that foreign investment plays an important role in the Canadian economy. Foreign investors bring with them knowledge, capabilities and technology which can increase the productivity, efficiency and competitiveness of Canadian firms. These investments frequently help Canadian-based companies to expand and create jobs for Canadians.

Canadians have benefited greatly from opening the country’s borders to trade and investment. Since 1997, Canada has the highest growth of output and employment among G-7 countries. The international competition for foreign investment is intense and we are challenged to ensure that we create and maintain a positive environment that signals to the rest of the world that Canada is a great place to do business.

Recognizing the importance of investment flows into the country, Canada has a broad framework in place to promote trade and investment, while, at the same time, protecting Canadian interests. The Investment Canada Act (the ICA) is a key part of that framework. The ICA provides a mechanism to review significant acquisitions of Canadian enterprises by non-Canadian companies and to determine if they will be of net benefit to Canada.

The factors considered as part of the net benefit test are listed in the ICA. They include such considerations as the effect of the investment on the level of production, employment, and competition in Canada, and the compatibility of the investment with our economic and cultural policies.

As the Minister of Industry, the Honourable David L. Emerson is responsible for the ICA. In this capacity, he can negotiate enforceable commitments with the investor, during the review process, to shape an investment deal in such a manner that it will provide net benefit to Canada. Industry Canada officials work closely with potential investors to negotiate these commitments. They also consult with other federal government departments, and the provinces, to obtain their views and concerns relating to the acquisition.

I can assure you that any investment reviews conducted under the ICA are done with rigour, in a view to ensure that the interests of Canadians are protected. Specifically, any investments by foreign companies to acquire control of large Canadians businesses must demonstrate net benefit to Canada to obtain the approval of the Minister. Should you wish to obtain additional information on the ICA, you may want to visit the internet at http://investcan.ic.gc.ca.

You should also be aware that any Canadian operation of foreign enterprises are required to conform to all Canadian rules and regulations. These include, but are not limited to, the regulatory regime administered by the National Energy Board at the federal level and provincial regulation of energy utilities.

...Form response to my email expressing concern over the sale of Terasen....

The dismantling of BC Gas and BC Hydro was a truly stupid and strategic mistake that we will all pay for down the line. The author is quite correct that the US sees energy supplies as a strategic issue, as does China. Canada’s policies have flipped flopped around and never followed any grand plan. While I would not be opposed to allow a small % of the ownership being public, it was vital that both of these companies remained in our control. Unlike a business, the province can’t up and change location if you have problems with the lease. By selling off these two utilities we have lost control of the pricing and flow of energy. No doubt there is likely a strongly worded contract to ensure that the gas supplies be maintained to Kinder Morgan, otherwise a new government could redirect the supplies elsewhere in order to gain some control.

I know very few people on either the right or left that think this was a good idea.

Scylla, I was making no value judgments vis-a-vis government spending on corporate and social programs. Merely following the money trail.

Taxes are a narcotic for government (I include petro royalties and gambling revenues in the category of taxes) which then likes to impress us with their largesse by throwing money at the flavours of the day.

And by selling off Terasen they rather neatly deflect all the criticism onto the "evil" multinational petroleum companies, while the government hauls in the booty. These modern-day Rockefellers in Victoria and Ottawa, like Venezuelaa or Saudi Arabia, have a cash register that rings every time the meter at the wellheads ticks off the gigagoules or barrels.

The sale makes no sense, we are going to have the most corrupt man( former Enron Boss) running our gas supply. A must see is Enron The Smartest Guys in the room. A close up of how Enron manipulated the market to drive up
shareholder value and caused massive rolling blackouts in California.

Kinder Morgan has the worst environmental record on the continent, 44 accidents in 2 years, way above any average out their, in fact one accident caused the death of 5 BC workers. In one incident a wetland was flooded by 70,000 liters of fuel and they didn't report it for over 24 hrs. We are giving away our sovereignty and competitive advantage( BC business pays very low heating and hydro costs) we are giving away a profitable company( 2 billion in 2004) to an reckless company that has a record no one would be proud of except maybe Ron Irwin, This is an elitist deal between class interest , this must be stopped and say their should be rallies all over the province. General Strike. Nothing will stop the fire sale going on in BC

Even conservatives can see the benefit in keeping this resource, lets get together and stop this.

Time to take the next step...

Please send your letter immediately to Robert Hobbs who has made this decision to avoid public hearings.

TO: ROBERT HOBBS, CHAIR, B.C. UTILITIES COMMISSION & ROBERT WHITEHEAD, TEMPORARY COMMISSIONER, B.C.U.C.
send to:

also CC: GORDON CAMPBELL at:

Actually Stuart, total revenues for 2004 was 1.957 billion and net earnings came in at 156.4 million, so I don't know how you came up with the "2 billion" in profit.

also which 5 BC workers were killed. As I understand it no one has ever been killed.

Would you mind setting the record straight for Mr. Hobbs so as he doesn't get confused?

Explosion killed five

The most dramatic and deadly incident had another cause, however. Five people were killed last November in Walnut Creek, California, after an excavator ruptured a high-pressure petroleum line. Gasoline filled the pipe trench and was ignited by a welding torch.

Kinder Morgan spokesman Rick Rainey told The Tyee that the incident had nothing to do with the company’s practices. “It was a backhoe operator that ruptured our pipeline, so that had nothing to do with integrity,” he says.

However, the California Department of Industrial Relations didn’t see it exactly that way. In its 20-page report on the Walnut Creek explosion, the department said the main contributing factor was that the pipeline was not properly marked: “The primary cause of the incident was that the location of the petroleum line was not known to employees working in the area.”

Negligence cited

In the end, Kinder Morgan was cited for two counts of “serious willful” and fined a total of $140,000. In the report, “willful” is defined as a situation “where evidence shows that the employer committed an intentional and knowing violation -- as distinguished from inadvertent or accidental or ordinarily negligent -- and the employer is conscious of the fact that what they are doing constitutes a violation, or is aware that a hazardous condition exists and no reasonable effort was made to eliminate the hazard.”

The 2 bilion I quoted was total revenue earned, anyway do you think giving away energy companies at this time is good business,

Do you think energy prices are going up or down, how do you see future profit margins,

Not to defend KMI but you should know that the Walnut Creek occurrence was not a natural gas pipeline accident and I can tell you for a fact that many of the Terasen pipeline warning signs get misplaced often. - by the public I might add.

I don't think giving away energy companies is a good idea at anytime - However, in this case we can't give it away because we don't own it in the first place - As I understand it, the public asset was signed over to private hands by the New Democratic government in 1993 (acting with the advice of the Utilities Commission they appointed).

What is revenue earned as opposed to profit?

Do I think energy prices are going up or down? - have you noticed the Cat 5 Hurricane heading for Texas?

Canada became a nation, removing (for the most part) itself from the government of England. The most vital aspect of a free country is have its a stable source of energy. You cannot survive without energy, all of the activities of a nation depend on energy. If a nation does not have its own souces of energy, it is dependent on other countries for their well-being. Nothing, and I mean nothing, can occur without energy. Remember the1st Law of Thermodynamics and Ed Deak's reference to it. All of you who had some education in the sciences in public school will remember that all activity requires energy and if you want an independent nation it must have its own supply. If you don't, you rely on your suppliers. Look at the USA and China, they are doing amazing things to ensure their supply. And look at Alberta, it wants all the money it gets from the Americans for itself. Alberta and BC are selling off their source of energy and therefore, the life-blood of its well-being for a few bucks to the corperate sponsors of their governments. This is very short-sighted and we will be up the creek unless we stop this trend for the short term and if we don't find long term energy solutions, we can kiss our ass good bye. The suggestion borders on treason.

Its just a matter of time and we will be like Mexico, no resourses of our own and cheap labour for the Americans

What amazes me is that the US wants to exploits it’s own oil reserves in the Arctic. Over the long term it would be better for the US to open up the Siberian reserves and keep their reserves intact for later.

The stupidest most asinine remark in this debate is that Canada doesn't have enough money to develop its own resources.

Fiat money doesn't exist. It is only a symbol representing resources and it is worthless until it is converted into resources. Even in the gold standard days Canada had more than enough gold to buy half of the world.'

When will people wake up to the sordid fact that in our age foreign investment is a monumental con game, a fraud and the biggest crime wave in human history ? Ed Deak, Big Lake.

The second stupidest most asinine remark, made by the same person, who's name I cannot mention as per the stipulation of C.I.R.E. is that "it's a global economy, get with it." The Lemmings continue to repeat what they see and hear in the media and talk shows. Free trade and foriegn investment, global markets...get on board or you will be left behind. When you give up any chance of self sufficiency for clothes made in Sri Lanka and food imported from South America, farms paved over for more condos, then you put your entire faith in the global transportation system as if it will last forever. You add to the list of false truths, that shipping, and air frieght and trucking will be here for us till the end of time. It's not a given, it's built on the abundance of cheap energy, cheap oil. Any way you look at it, take the cheap, or the oil part away and you have not just economic collapse but economic ruin. While we are looking for alternative sources of energy you might want to add to the education system a few courses on how to grow food, and raise livestock. Maybe call it pioneer training...Sounds better than disaster recovery. Bon appetite!

I wouldn't worry too much about the "energy crisis" clubofrome. After all, BC will soon have plenty of dead wood to burn in the endless line of pizza ovens and the like found squatting on Ag land. Bon appetite? - I'm sure the entirely visionless Ralph Kline and friends will mutter - let them eat cake!

Hello Gassy! Worry! Never. Ponder? Yeah. Point and laugh! You bet.

Would that be the dead wood from the pine forests, or the dead wood sitting in the liberal seats of our provincial government?

I never liked that line. Let them eat cake. What does that mean?

I dunno, ask Marie! - Dead wood sitting in the liberal seats? More like worm infested deadheads I'd say. - I ain't laughing my friend...

Deadhead: (n) Hazard to navigation.

Club
Actually in all seriousness the pioneer training sounds like a great idea. It would certainly make people more aware how to survive and where food, metals come from. As long as we don’t follow Cambodia’s model of re-education of the urbanites.

deadheads (ugh!)

""Not to defend KMI but you should know that the Walnut Creek occurrence was not a natural gas pipeline accident and I can tell you for a fact that many of the Terasen pipeline warning signs get misplaced often. - by the public I might add."

Sorry Gassy but I tend to believe the investigations and word of the the California Department of Industrial Relations more than some of the cuff knee jerk opinion on what some other company does.

Look around the world , see how the US , China and other nations are securing their power supply. This is an act of pure greed and a insider deal between class elites in The BC gov and US officials . Are we going to be a strong nation in control of our own resources or are we going to be another colony of the US and supplier of cheap oil and labour. Shame on Gordo for not being creative and having a huge fire sale in BC to any and all us buyers.

Kinder Morgan is by far the worst and dirtiest and most corrupt energy company on the planet and we are not even allowed a public debate on the issue.

Time to fight folks.
Please send your letter immediately to Robert Hobbs who has made this decision to avoid public hearings.

TO: ROBERT HOBBS, CHAIR, B.C. UTILITIES COMMISSION & ROBERT WHITEHEAD, TEMPORARY COMMISSIONER, B.C.U.C.
send to:

also CC: GORDON CAMPBELL at:

Tarcake, Clubo. It's some kind of crap wheat product cemented together with vegetable oils. It was a popular WWII ration for forward Canadian troops in Italy.

Sorry Stuart, but it is clear to me that you hate Americans, which in my view is a mistake.

Also, you are absolutely wrong in claiming that Mr. Hobbs made a decision to avoid public hearings because that is not the case at all. The Commission ordered written public submissions which may be followed by oral hearings if necessary.

Presumably the written submission decision was made to avoid having to hear another off-key rendition of O' Canada by Corky Evans and Shane Simpson who have yet to ask one single question of KMI. (Maybe they thought they were at a hockey game?)

You ought to get over your own knee jerk anger at Americans as soon as possible, (especially in regard to corporate greed). Canadian's can be every bit as bad in that regard, and as proof of that I offer you the great Canadian Idol, Mr. Bernie Evers.

That's the answer to the "let them eat cake" question?

Besides the name, what was so popular about it?

To whom are you speaking Clubofrome?

In my opinion valid points are made all around. Generally speaking, we are a global economy. Canada does benefit from foreign investment, and Canadian corporations do very well abroad, and in particular in the United States. However, it is true that all countries including China and the United States view energy strategically.

It is also true we have been treated unjustly on the softwood lumber and may be owed well over one billion dollars, which we could obviously use.

Of all the points in the discussion and debate, I would say that the Ghost may have the most relevant part of the discussion given that time is of the essence on this.

Unless I have missed something, exactly what is the frame of reference of the BC Utilities Commission when they review the sale? How can we find out what it is that the Commission choose to consider? If we knew this we could better comment on those considerations, and possibly any that are not on the table (why)?

For all we know many of the points made here, relevant or not may not be on the list of considerations for the Commission.

Ghost always smells a rat

bcuc.com/ApplicationView.aspx?ApplicationId=85

That was meant for Eddy. Perhaps he could forward the recipe... Is it 2 cups of crap wheat or three cemented together with oil?

Actually I'm sure that it's bitumen, not oil and you need to fuse them together with a Kline model natural gas roaster (preferably sulphur rich) -Oilmen love it more than S-X.

Our Mission

The Commission's mission is to ensure that ratepayers receive safe, reliable, and nondiscriminatory energy services at fair rates from the utilities it regulates, and that shareholders of those utilities are afforded a reasonable opportunity to earn a fair return on their invested capital.

Isn't that an obvious conflict of interest?

What would be better? - no regulation at all?

Presumably the Utilities Commission acts in the public interest. In the case at hand if someone wishes to stop this process they will need to find a reason why the share sale is not in the public interest, and so far that doesn't appear to have happened.

Remember, the New Democrat's gave up Westcoast Energy to Duke Energy without a peep ( a much bigger deal)and Corky was a member at the time. As I recall former Premier Dan Miller may have been the minister responsible. (He now works for Government) - Who knew?

I have the portable unit as well as the "direct connect" at home on the deck. At 4,500 btu's the portable is great for weekend camping, but when the festive season arrives you want the capacity of the "Kline-r-rator"

I hear that Clubofrome.

Did you know that Mr. Paul Cassidy, legal counsel for Kinder Morgan is a Canadian?

Do you know him?

I guess I don't understand the food chain. Just looking at the mission statement it sounds wrong. In theory we should not lose any regulating decisions even when the sale is done. I believe we just had a rate hike and they are looking for another 17% in October/November. I may have the numbers wrong. As I said that appears to me as a loss of control.

Where are we going with this....I'm getting dizzy.

I think you may have entirely missed the "skyrocketing" rise in the price of natural gas in the last month and a half, over which the Commission has no control whatsoever, (nor does Terasen for that matter)...

The fact that you're getting dizzy indicates that you should leave it up to the experts, which in this case is the Utilities Commission.

Who's got the rubber stamp?

What I'm really trying to say clubofrome, is that Murray Dobin speaks out of a hole other than his cakehole. Viola!

I refuse to answer anymore of these questions without representation.

Gassy, in a previous run(How we got screwed on the Terasen deal) weren't you saying that Alberta and Washington State were paying about half the rate for our gas? That the BCUC was not protecting us as they should? So telling us to leave it to the experts is who?

If you'll excuse me, I'm going sailing....

No, that is not what I said.

Me too clubofrome -

Uhh, ya, you did but... whatever.... have a good time sailing guys....

Dirty fighting = You hate Americans, anyone that opposes you or questions authority is not being Patriotic and hates America. Sorry Gassy, not wrapped that tightly in the flag just yet.

It is our duty to question authority , democracy was formed by the people to protect us the abuses of money and power, sitting back and hoping things go well is not serving your fellow citizen.

Dirty Fighting = Well gee 10 or 15 yrs ago such and such also did this, so your point is what. We should never address
current injustice because bad things have always happened and that's just the way things go. ( words of the powerless
citizen) In fact many wrongs have been stopped even in the last few years by courageous people willing to make a stand.
Ask me for a list and I can supply one.

Okay so enough dirty fighting, the rules of the game, People can be free to have an opinion without being anti American ,
deeds of past governments do not affect this ruling. Gee the NDP also did stupid things is not good logic.

"Presumably the Utilities Commission acts in the public interest. In the case at hand if someone wishes to stop this process they will need to find a reason why the share sale is not in the public interest, and so far that doesn't appear to have happened. "
Some reasons its not in the public interest
1) Former Enron bosses going to be at the helm, does anyone remember Enron, Enron the Smartest guys in the room is a must see.
2) More foreign ownership of our natural resources is never a good thing , do you see the US selling its oil companies,
In fact congress stopped China from buying one just a few months ago.
3) 44 accidents in 2 years is well above the average in the industry. This company has a terrible record on safety and the environment.
4) Oil prices are going to skyrocket, why give away such a gem when we have an ever growing energy dependant giant to the south.
5) We lost sovereignty, energy policy and control is at the base off all things that we do.

And clubofrome, imagine if your energy was used for something useful, being a clown does not seem to be working.

If you care folks do something,
I have already got my response back and intent to fight this every step.

Please send your letter immediately to Robert Hobbs who has made this decision to avoid public hearings.

TO: ROBERT HOBBS, CHAIR, B.C. UTILITIES COMMISSION & ROBERT WHITEHEAD, TEMPORARY COMMISSIONER, B.C.U.C.
send to:

also CC: GORDON CAMPBELL at:

Whatever Stuart

It might not be working for you, you mean.

I posted a response from investcan above that I received as a form response to my email asking them to quit selling off "your" natural resources Stuart. I also emailed BCUC as did some of the other concerned citizens here on Tyee, I'm sure. When the general strike is called I'll be the first one there....Dressed up of course with my big red nose and floppy shoes.... Honk, honk...

Krusty

Well, clubofrome , if your doing those things great, but don't you see jerking around just devalues the forum and sends well minded folks elsewhere, not to mention the fact its very rude to interrupt with silly comments (what does eat cake mean etc) while others are having a serious conversation. We get to much
meaningless fluff in the MSM and I find it hard to tolerate in these forums. Come on I would expect such stuff from Ron Irwin and Jimmy( absent for awhile thank God)

Hey, Gassy, I re-read my post again and I realized that I wasn't precise enough; I should have said that Alberta and Washington State was paying almost half less delivery charges (proper term?).You know what I mean and I know you remember.

Please pardon my interuptions Stuart. It appears with the debundling decision last year consummers now have a choice as to who will be their gas marketer. I believe Direct Energy is one of those choices. Can you tell me what their rates for delivery will be?

The John Wayne's are here, that's it,period.

"Enron the smartest guys in the room"

a must see,this deal is like art imitating life, very scary.

BC Rail, Hydro, Ferries, Gas, Education and health care are next, the prefect Neo Con storm, a perfect privatized world. Where big money is made on essentials.

Bectel could run our water supply,

Besides Duke, Stuart, who are the other major pipeline players?

Eat cake was an insensitive remark from a European rule,r in response to poverty among the masses, who may as well of said 'let them eat schit'.

Today Carole James rightfully called on Campbell to have a public inquiry into the sale. To my amazement the Minister Dick Newful says they don’t need one. I wonder if any of them are even aware of the track record of Kinder Morgan. How can you have such a volatile explosive agent like natural gas and simply hand it over to anyone for the highest dollar ?

A plumber today made an interesting comment, the province asks for more information to be a licensed gas fitter than it does to be a gas utility owner. What a load of crap.

In the version I learned, Marie Antoinette asked a courtier what all the peasants outside were rioting about.

She was told " The people have no bread to eat, Majesty"

She replied with the famous line "Let them eat cake"

That's the story that was told the French people at the time, to illustrate the chasm between the masses of revolutionary peasants of France and their rulers, who in the midst of famine, didn't even know what a famine is.

It may be the exchange never really happened; that it was the work of an NDP spin doctor. I know at least one regular poster here who will likely argue that before he's done.

The quote's appropros because of the parallel situation here, where corporate interests rule us, claiming unheard of prosperity, committing frauds and thefts on an unprecedented scale, while the among ordinary people, homelessness, poverty and despair are exploding.

But Enron certainly did prosper, and the criminals who got the money are still around, many of them working for the Liberal government under different names.

Accenture, for example, got a New Jersey court to change their name from Arthur Andersen Accounting, under which name they ruined the state of California and thousands of retired seniors on fixed incomes by increasing their Hydro bills exponentially.

They now run BC Hydro's billing arm for the Liberals.

So betrayal is not an unwarranted word to use. And the appointment of an unindicted Enron executive is not a new thing from this Liberal government either.

Why would they allow an enquiry into that? Enquiries might lead to exposure, exposure might lead to charges, charges might lead to people actually having to follow our money to Barbados or the Caymans, and hide there with it.

Jeez, Bailey, don't spoil their fun with facts.

A few years back, Bailey, when I was researching windmills, I came across the site of one of the largest electrical manufactures in the world, ABB (Asea Brown Boveri) of Sweden. On the site they proudly announced they just had acquired Accenture, formed by the then recently departed principals of Arthur Anderson, the "accounting" firm for Enron, which is described thus by Wiki: Enron was one of the world’s leading electricity, natural gas and communications companies.

ABB boasted that with Accenture, they had just acquired extensive expertise and wide connections in the energy supply business. Clearly, these guys were far more than just accountants with a taste for designing phoney derivatives.

It wasn't long after that Campbell entrusted BC Hydro to this gang of crooks, who also specialise in "outsourcing". (definition: leave the office in charge of Accenture while the Executive are out playing golf)

I'll quit thinking about it now, just as I did four years ago.

The John Wayne's are here, their amongst us, their running the show,for all we know half of the UTILITIES COMMISSION may be John Waynes,they sure as hell are part of this goverment.
Who other than the John Waynes,caused the down fall of Dave Barrett, Bill Vander Zalm, Glen Clark, look whats happening to Marc Emery and associates, listen, you hear that, thats the John Waynes laughing at us, and what do we do, eat cake.

Not much you can do except stage a general strike. Perhaps the population will be ready for such action a little further into the oil crisis when thier SUVs can no longer be fueled. The American Revolution was founded on the concept that those who own the resources should control them. Can granting Terasen shareholders a vote in an election be far away?

Holding your breath,stomping your feet,craping your pants, having a general strike, this is all an effort in futility, the Terasen-Kinder Morgan deal is a done deal, the knob gobblers have already given the farm away , this deal is a wrap, the lackeys at the commission are just going through the motions, how sure am I,I would bet my left testicle on it.
The Utiltes Commission,the Parole Board, CRTC,
etc,etc these people are all oblivious to the average persons problems,and they don't give a rats arse either, their goal in life is to use up space in some nice office, draw huge salaries,cater to their masters wishes,receive bonus, large severance packges, take 6-8 week annual holidays, than retire with a 80-100 g annual pay and move to some gated community so as they won't have to smell nor share their air with some commoner(working stiff) end of story.

I'll take that bet! - because I couldn't agree less. I think the Commission will go through the application with a fine tooth comb. However, based on the mostly anti-American rhetoric submitted by uninformed commenter's such as Stuart, they may have difficulty finding a solid reason not to recommend approval to the Executive council.

((proper term?). You're half right.)

Stuart, did your mother take your keyboard away? Or are you just too ashamed of your behavior last week to apologize? Perhaps next time you won't be so quick to judge, what is relevant and what is meaningless fluff.

Bailey, sweet words, the truth is like light , once it shines darkness fades and folks like gaswoks disappear
back to the boardroom. If makes me laugh this Anti American non sense, sorry gasworks this is Canada
and we don't wrap ourselves in the flag that tightly. In fact anyone against the former ilk at Enron are
pro American, ask any American in California what they think of Enron now Kinder Morgan, how about
you Gasworks are you Anti Canadian, anti truth , anti informed .

Anyone with half a brain knows this is a bad deal BC, but just in case a few reasons to get involved and block the
deal.
1) Former Enron bosses going to be at the helm, does anyone remember Enron, Enron the Smartest guys in the room is a must see.
2) More foreign ownership of our natural resources is never a good thing , do you see the US selling its oil companies,
In fact congress stopped China from buying one just a few months ago.
3) 44 accidents in 2 years is well above the average in the industry. This company has a terrible record on safety and the environment.
4) Oil prices are going to skyrocket, why give away such a gem when we have an ever growing energy dependant giant to the south.
5) We lost sovereignty, energy policy and control is at the base off all things that we do.

And woody , we are the many and they are the few, we have all the power, you seem informed , just take it to the next
leval, get involved anyway you can, you can start by sending an email to .
TO: ROBERT HOBBS, CHAIR, B.C. UTILITIES COMMISSION & ROBERT WHITEHEAD, TEMPORARY COMMISSIONER, B.C.U.C.
send to:

also CC: GORDON CAMPBELL at:

We must stop this.

LOL, clubofrome

Get over yourself, it must so hard trying to be clever, how can you dwell over such a petty thing for 3 days, I was on the island away from a computer, anyway, I prefer folks who are upfront , at least gasworks is clear on what he believes, even if it makes him look ridiculous, I have no time for the
over sensitive, just crap or get of the pot, why all this intellectual bladder.. The Deal is a bad one so what is it your going to do about it.

Gassy, whatever the proper term you know you said that they, the BCUC, weren't properly protecting us so tell me who the experts are that we are to leave it to?

Thanks Stuart - it must be hard for you deal with the facts. For example, did you know that the former Chair of Terasen was forced to step down last year in the face of insider trader allegations by the Alberta Securities Commission? - could it be that our cherished utility owners might be worse than former Enron executives you constantly complain about? - does anyone know who Bernie Evers is?

There has been a change in the Commission's attention, you may now leave it up to them.

Stuart, glad you LOLing at my expense. Positive feedback for a clown!

Not that I care if we're on the same side or not, but perhaps you could enlighten us all with you're vast knowledge of utilities and gas marketing in particular? Hmmm? Or do you just want to pretend you're enraged at the world and anyone else you don't understand....
pompous ass....

Ha, Ha, Sorry, not going their.

"Not that I care if we're on the same side or not, but perhaps you could enlighten us all with you're vast knowledge of utilities and gas marketing in particular?"

I know you want to play this I know more than you thing out, you want go on and on over erroneous jargon . Its an
old trick by those wanting to fog a simple issue. We don't need a vast understanding of the industry to know this is
a bad deal, simple black and white bad deal. Like the politician who gets a simple question and talks for a hour
until no one cares anymore and most folks go glossy eyed.

Good argument gasworks, some folks are corrupt at Teresen, big surprice, gee why not sell the company to a more currupt regime at Kinder Morgan. No more is more courrupt than former Enron folks, no one. Did you see the
settlements coming down , CIBC, 2.2 bil , their entire profit for 2004. The entire marketplace took a wash and folks lost everything due to these scumbags now wanting to come in here. In the end it all falls at Gordo's feet for letting
this take place.

Your response leads me to believe that you don't even know who Bernie Evers is and that you prefer to go on and on with erroneous jargon (rhetoric). -What a waste of time...

Not that you are even listening Stuart but, in summation, you don't want to go anywhere but a nice comfy place where everyone shares your opinion. But you want to be able to come out and acuse others of ruining your precious thread. Then, you run and hide behind mommy's skirt. "I don't want to play with them, they play too rough!" Don't ever interrupt me again with your two bit opinion on who or what is useful in a thread. I'll extend you the same courtesy. Good day to you sir!

Get stuffed, or go eat some cake, LOL

Hey how about a history lesson on eating cake.

Growing up means taking sides, making a stand, having courage. I guess some folks see this forum as entertainment while others see it a
motivation to get up and do something. If you make clear statements or call things as they are you will win friends and create enemies, I;m okay with this. So sad so many are willing to talk in circles till the cows come home,
A public forum holds you accountable as to what you say, if your silly expect others to disrespect you.

Gasworks, I'll take Worldcom for a thousand...
It's Ebbers, Bernard J. Ebbers
Before someone puts the blame for that at Gordo's feet, perhaps you could continue with your thoughts why we should trust the commision...

Okay, Gassy, so you now feel the BCUC is trustworthy (paying attention). Care to explain what has happened in the last two months to change your mind?

Yes, I know that. But do you know who Bernie Evers is? He's the guy that many of those silly US blogger sites - some even think he was a Mississippi Plumber! ( the same sort of stuff you seem to relish) thinks is cooling his heels in the slammer. Spike Lee for example. - Go ahead and Google it.

You'll "take Worldcom for a thousand", well good luck to you Stuart, (if you has seen those two ex-Enron execs on TV in handcuffs last week heading for the Big House you might have noticed that Mr. Kinder was not one of them.) Or maybe you believe he's guilty by association which makes it OK to hurl accusations at will.

Now is that one b or two b's?

Who's Gassy?

Geez...Just answer the question, will ya...

I give up....

clubofrome says I give up...
typical weak kneed, soft spine, chicken chit,tail between the legs, canuck, it's no wonder our unions have given in and given up so much to corporations, governments,etc,etc,this attitude is rampant throughout the rank and file, as well this very same attitude can be attributed as to why the John Waynes can just walk into this country and do as they wish, with whoever they wish, when they wish, besides,we can't get pissed off, after all where known as peace loveing people around the world, what a crock of chit.

I give up trying to get an answer from gasworks. What the fuckare you talking about?

clubofrome it's just so typical canadian now days what you said :aw I give up: your with a majority not a minority,that all.

If you were to read the preceeding posts over a number of days you would see that Pitbull and I were becoming increasingly frustrated with getting a straight answer! Who ever gasworks is I'm through asking for an explanation of his posts. That's the "context" of "I give up." Geez....
Someone asked recently what is the purpose of these forums? It's reading. You actually have to read them to keep things in context.

Anybody else wanna rag on me for content or spelling, grammer perhaps.....**** off.

Hold on a second, don't jump on clubofrome so fast. I don't find him weak kneed, etc. at all. As a matter of fact most of his posts are informative ( although I agree more with the points of IC in his comment to the Commission).

Moreover, he's right I haven't answered his question yet and I can see how that could frustrate him to some extent. ( I thought the Worldcom Evers, Ebbers & Ebers post was from Stuart, the anti American whom I no longer have time for.)

Great name for a TV Legal Series - You think?

Great Article, Murray. Thanks a heap.

One historical comment. When the National Energy Board (NEB) deregulated in 1984 (pre-NAFTA, but under Brian Mulrooney's watch), it removed restrictions that maintained direct control over our energy prices and restrictions which had prioritized Canadian energy needs over exports. It also got rid of mandatory supply reserves. Remember Aesop’s grasshopper and ant fable? All sensible planning of our energy security was wiped out by the NEB in 1984 setting the stage for NAFTA.

As to contacting the BCUC, DO IT! and cc Gordon and the Feds while you are at it. Demand the BCUC hold an oral hearing. They have left the window open for this, if they feel they need more information before arriving at their decision.

There are currently more than 900 letters of protest filed on the BCUC page for the KMI Aquistion of Terasen. This is unprecedented. Go to http://www.bcuc.com/ApplicationView.aspx?ApplicationId=85 and scroll down to the E exhibits. Open a few. It's great reading.

While you're there, check out Exhibit C11-6. Kinder Morgan has more than a bad environmental record. They have problems with the regulator of their utility in Wyoming for non-compliance and false advertsing.
But worse yet is their financial state. Famed oil analyst Kurt Wulff says their accounting is misleading — that they book inflated earnings and deflated debt. "Canadians." he says, "would be exchanging ownership and control of strategic assets for inflated stock and a high-risk financial structure, in our opinion."

This is not, yet, a dead issue.

One other comment. If the BCUC does NOT okay this sale, Gordon can overrule them anyway. We no longer have an “independant” regulator in BC. When the Electricity Heritage Act (don’t ask!) was passed in 2004 it contained a cute little clause that the BCUC can be overridden by an Order In Council, i.e., a Cabinet decision. This has already been done once to my knowledge.

However, at the very least, that would throw this sale back in the political policy arena where it belongs, since no governmental offices at either the provincial or national level carry a mandate to protect our energy. Rather they are all about protecting corporate interests as Murray points out.

So come on everybody, get up on your hind legs and start yelling! Call for an public oral hearing.

get involved anyway you can, you can start by sending an email to .
TO: ROBERT HOBBS, CHAIR, B.C. UTILITIES COMMISSION & ROBERT WHITEHEAD, TEMPORARY COMMISSIONER, B.C.U.C.
send to:

also CC: GORDON CAMPBELL at:

LOL, more anti American bladder, In fact going against the former Enron Folks makes me pro American, I don't
think folks in CA would mind me bashing the ilk at Kinder Morgan. Just act Woody, send off some letters talk to your
neighbors, don't worry about empty heads in chat rooms, the forum is good when you use it as a tool and not
simply entertainment for trying to prove who's right, no time for a peeing contest when the issue is so black and white.

I must have struck a nerve when certain folks keep coming back for more. Gasworks has yet to explain to anyone
why he thinks the company with the worst record in North American is good for BC and how this benefits BC . 44
incidents in 2 years is hardly a record to be proud of.

The anti American hunter, Gasworks LOL, when all else fails try the labels.

Thanks , facts in PR

Be careful soon, Gasworks will be calling you Anti American, like Kinder Morgan and its shareholders are the
role model of America. Good post, Don't worry my submission is on record.

facts in PR, Stuart... thanks.

What we don't want to be is Anti-Canadian.

Why don't we start with anti social?

Et Tu!, clubofrome?

Indeed! We should all be able to express our views, even in opposition! Knowing that we will be free of ridicule and tyranny. To live in a world where respect is king, and men can settle their differences in the time honored fashion. Pistols at high noon.

I'm sure there is a point somewhere in all of that. Care to elaborate? - or do you prefer to shoot first while your opponent's back is turned and ask questions later?

We're on thin ice here, and could once again incur the "Wrath of Stuart" should we detract from the topic of this thread... but as a visionary, I'll risk it. One of the few things that put a burr under my saddle is lack of courtesy. It is a sign of unawareness, the eighth deadly sin. The usual suspects are in tow as well. Respect, cooperation and consideration, all absent when you are unaware. So while Stuart and Woody have a passion for their beliefs, it's counter productive to blast away at everything in front of their self righteous path. So, should their unreasonable and unwanted attacks have taken place 200 years ago, they would be challenged to back up those words with their lives. Alas we cannot go back, so we can only ask for accountability. Neither seem to have time for it. Nor the time for an amiable chat such as we are enjoying. I think these things are important if you want society to become civilized. If you'll excuse me, I must go and tend to the sheep...

Point taken - as I recall many "gunslinger's" ended up shooting themselves in the foot...

Just call me "hop along"...

My main complaint (concern) is the uncalled for rallying of a lynch mob on the steps of the calaboose with rope in hand looking for any neck to stretch half-way through the trial - "So come on everybody, get up on your hind legs and start yelling! Call for an (sic) public oral hearing..." - but isn't that why WalMart invented one of society's greatest achievements, the shopping cart, (so their customers could get up off their hind legs)?

However having said that, some yelling has in fact been useful in the past. Furthermore, Facts in PR did correctly identify several concerns that deserve comment, and he's absolutely right that this is "unprecedented", but in my view more yelling! at this point won't help.

When you're through tending with the sheep, I'll endeavor to explain why we should now leave it up to the "experts".

I sense the gallery is leaning in on the edge of their seats...

Hop along! - I'm surprised you didn't say, "Who is that "Masked Man?".

They'll just have to be patient in that regard, because I have my own sheep to tender and it's a long story for sure, (best told in bits & bytes - cc: gasworks insiders.

PS, responses to the latest information requests are just beginning to come in.

bcuc.com/ApplicationView.aspx?ApplicationId=85

http://www.bcuc.com/ApplicationView.aspx?ApplicationId=85

"Nor the time for an amiable chat such as we are enjoying. I think these things are important if you want society to become civilized."

LOL, you must be kidding, do you think the folks at Kinder Morgan are being civilized, how about the Shareholders at Telus, how about Gordo and his ilk, do you think they are being civilized, just because you my dear confused comrades Gasworks and clubofrome have not been impacted directly does not mean everyone is being civilized. If you had your basic needs taken away so some dickk in West Van can have a larger tax cut, if you had your jobs off shored so some shareholder can get better returns, if a government cut vital services that affect your well being I wonder how
gentlemanlike and civilized you would be. Excurse me for being abrupt and hurting you sensitive disposition, but if your still upset you must be a very fragile man who has not experienced much in life. We are not
living in a civilized time, look around the world and in you own backyard. We all the fluff in the MSM using this
forum a play thing is vulgar and should be called out, do you thing people being civilized has earned you the benefits you enjoy today. Sorry to many Canadians living in mediocrity, I refuse to participate, one day your thank me,

"I'll endeavor to explain why we should now leave it up to the "experts".

LOL, most experts tend to benefit directly from their expertise. Most important decision don't belong in the hands of the peasantry Sorry to upset your view of the world. Now back to CKNW for more indoctrination.

"one day your thank me,"

But will I have to kiss your feet? (after you save the world"

Make jokes if you like, but history has shown us that positive change has never come as a
gift from high places but has originated with normal people who got sick and tires of the BS.

Do nothing if you like, but don't get in the way of those why still have spirit.

"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

who still have spirit,

Thanks Stuart, I'll take that under advisement...

Did I call that one or what?! I thought we were on thin ice but looks more like a fault line ready to crack! Good luck if you ever venture out beyond your own four padded walls...

clubofrome, thanks for your compliment, I welcome all crazy BC's citizens to join me in getting of their butts and making things happen, better crazy than lost in mediocrity, I'm not much for collective
ideas and the status quo, call me crazy if you like. Cheers and thanks again

Where all think alike, no one thinks very much. - Walter Lipman

That's better. No more jackal ears, giraffe ears are best. Perhaps you'll come to some of the same conclusions I have when you "think" about it. C = L X A Change equals applying what you learn. Leave out one and no change occurs. If you want someone to change, and you want lot's of change fast, you better figure out a way to do it other that clubbing people over the head. I'm on your side of the issues I just don't like your meothods, and at the end of the day people still talk to me. If they won't talk or worse listen to you, you're dead in the water. But...best wishes to you as well. I'll just keep doing in my way if you don't mind.

Try and keep things in perspective as well. The only person getting upset is you.

Learn that humor is the great healer and you will have learned a lot. - me

Mikey likes it!

By the way Stuart as a BC Liberal, I haven't supported the "Honorable" Gordon Campbell since the day he got out of jail and broke his covenant by contacting the Attorney General and the Solicitor General of the day for support...

Stuart keep up the good work, say what ever it takes in order to get people to act, I would say from the amount of letters of objectors being sent to BCUC,your input is obviously having an effect, chit, it's probably worth a testicle in order to keep the John Waynes out.

But if one goes for double or nothing and ends up loosing, there goes the "Woody" - (believe it or not it was CanWest that got the ball rolling) - Why not hear the application on it's merit?

gasworks, merit,the John Waynes don't even know how it spell, it let alone define it.

gasworks,(revised) merit,the John Waynes don't even know how to spell it, let alone define it.

Meet Dr. Joan Wayne I'd say she's got two of em'.

http://www.bcuc.com/Documents/Proceedings/2005/DOC_8759_E-70_Joan%20Russow%20Letters%20of%20Comment.pdf

There's more than one way to "skin a cat" my friend.

gasworks save me the effort ok, and just summarize what Dr. Joan Wayne has to say,I unlike you don't get paid to monitor this site. Your a ringer I suspect my friend.

That's your problem my friend, a little effort of your own might help you understand. Where can I find your submission/comment? Or do you just expect everybody else to do it for you. - Moreover "Woody", I really don't care what you suspect.

Big companies always have a few paid hacks to push their agenda, at the Wal Mart hearings in Van .
Their was this one 82 yr old saying that she loves Wal Mart and needs the low cost pricing with
her income and likes the fact they hire seniors. She said the whole thing in a monotone way like she had memorized
the scripts given to her. I was tempted to ask her how she managed to survive to this ripe age without a local
Wal Mart.

The objective is to not get wrapped up in circular conversations , the issue is black and white. Sometimes if folks cannot
win their argument they win by making the issue to muddy for folks to get involved. Some posters will argue till the cows
come home via insults etc but will not lay out one fact as to why Kinder Morgan is good for BC. Doing the right thing will
always upset some and leave a few behind. But don't worry in the end they will thank you.

Just say, your welcome

Tou-che Stuart