I think I'll be buying some VHS tapes and recording this 38th parliment session(s)...

I wonder if the 'fearless leader' Campbell has secretly set aside $500 million for RAV cost over-runs? RAV is now two FastFerries over the original budget estimation of $1.2 billion. RAVCO has seriously underestimated the cost of Subway construction and Lavalin went bankrupt just trying to sell, not build, a SkyTrain system in Bangkok!

If Carole James & the NDP are smart, they should ficus on RAV on several levals:
1)The project is no longer a PPP as finacing is now from government inssured public sector pension plans.

2) Vancouver mayorality candidate, Christy Clark and her husband, Mark Merissen, are up to their eyeballs financially with RAV, as Merissen is a highly paid lobbiest for RAV.

3) RAV projected cost has risen from $1.2 billion in 2003 to $1.9 billion in 2005.

4) TransLink has been very ecconomical with the truth regarding RAV/light-metro and light rail transit. So fast and lose with the facts that the RCMP commercial crimes unit should be involved, a la the Bre-X scandal.

5) TransLink has not been honest with SkyTrain statistics, as they have been claiming a ridership of over 65 million annually, yet, in their report to the TransLink Board, admitted that ridership on SkyTrain was down, with the first quarter ridership of 9 million or about 36 million annually!

6) Has TransLink & RAVCO provided false ridership projections for RAV, to ensure another SkyTrain line be built?

Then the multi billion, planned on the back of an envelope, twinning of the Port Mann Bridge project, must come under scrutiny. Will it reduce traffic congestion or increase it? Is the project another screw the taxpayer subsidy for Campbell's friends, the trucking industry & and the road builders?

Grumpy: I think 100 years from now people will look back and consider RAV (and Glen Clark's skytrain "connector") visionary. Just like London's Underground, which started over 100 years ago when people were using horse and buggy above - today London's streets are jammed with cars. London buses have to crawl along because of all the traffic and cars parked on the streets, making the Tube the only intelligent way to get around town. RAV won't have the ridership today but the Cambie corridor makes sense as the place to build "smart growth" density and the ridership will grow with that.

Chris: teachers aren't overpaid, but cherry-picked statistics from the BCTF tell us little. Anyone can lie with statistics: unions, governments, business -- they do it all the time.

If the average teacher is paid less than Toronto or Edmonton, then welcome to the big world. One of the emergent trends in compensation over the last 20 years or so, is that salaries in *all* the professions lag on the west coast. That's because it's much easier to recruit people here.

Professionals like living here, and so the marketplace does not bid up their salaries when the supply is ample. That's called economics, and it applies in the human resources context, just as in the rest of everyday life. Just ask any lawyeror accountant what their counterparts in Alberta and Ontario make, they'll tell you the same.

In a nutshell, if you want to make what an Edmonton teacher makes -- move to Edmonton. You'll love the climate and someone else here will be willing to take the job for the money you left behind.

I happened to notice that although there are not tax breaks forcast for the Public at large there will be a new lowered corporate tax down 1.5% from the previous new low of the last Provincial budget.

Grumpy,

I, too, expect heated debate over the RAV extension - as there should be.

Some, however, will see a dilemma for the NDP in that the most labor-intensive construction, while benefiting the workers short-changes all in the Lower Mainland who finance the system.

These facts should not cause the NDP to sway from what is right nor make its questioning less forceful.

I see a boondoggle in which we have been force-fed a system justified, we have been led to believe, by the demands of NIMBY-ism.

In short, the RAV line should elevated.

Kurt, no one denies we need transit , The Rav Folks will have you believe that without Rav their would be nothing,
The RAV will be built at taxpayers expense and given to a private company, P3's have failed around the world , check
out the experience in the UK, in fact the P3 idea for Rav was so popular they could not find one investor on the planet to
support the project, so their going to use union pension funds to get it done. Their are many alternatives to a Cadillac line
that is going to run over budget by the billions, 430 mil over budget already and not a shovel in the ground. Can you
imagine tunneling under false creek and downtown. Estimates are that we could have 1100 new express buses per year
with just the interest and maintenance on the line, who is going to pay, you and me my friends, property taxes are going up,
and bye the way 2 billion is without interest , its more like 7 billion once paid for. As far as the budget goes , we'll she if the NDP is up to par or not, 400 mil more in corporate tax cuts, welfare is well and alive in BC.

As a regular ferry passenger I have to admit that three fast ferries would have been a tremendous asset to the system this summer. Perhaps next time some one has a ferry wake problem we can re-engineer his dock for him instead of jettisoning the fleet.

Kurt, 100 years from now, SkyTrain will be an albatross. Too expensive to service areas other tnan dense city centres. And if Bombardier stop making SkyTrain - too bad for us. Ask the TTC, Bombardier refuses to make Mk.1 cars for their SkyTrain and the system can not accomodate Mk. 2 cars, without hugely expensive retrofitting! It seems the TTC will tear down their SkyTrain system as it is a cheaper alternative to retro-fitting!

Stuart, SkyTrain is certainly not a Cadillac system, more like an Edsel. That's why no one is buying it!

Did anyone notice that the only parties that got a tax cut in the mini-Budget/Budget Update brought down by the lady in the red shoes were Corporations? Was anybody surpised?

Did the New Democrats have a choice, all three of them, how could they not have obliged?

Like the ferries, don't scuttle that skytrain just yet. I'm a little fed up with governments redoing the five year plan every nine months. Some of the LRT initiatives that are being studied at this time seem to serve no one except the railways. But at least the transit authority isn't contemplating an entire refit of the entire system.

Here is what CUPE B.C. thinks about the budget.

BURNABY – For the second time, B.C.’s Liberal government has delivered a massive post-election giveaway to their corporate supporters that was kept hidden during the election campaign, the Canadian Union of Public Employees said today, in response to the provincial budget announcement.

The 1.5-percent corporate tax cut, from 13.5 percent to 12 percent, is over and above the tax cuts promised during the provincial election campaign.

“The budget speech talks about reaching out to seniors, but it is corporations that have the biggest take,” said CUPE BC president Barry O’Neill.

“That tax cut will cost the government $163 million next year. That is money that has been paid for by cuts in services over the last four years. It’s money that was paid for by closed schools, reduced legal aid, cuts to environmental programs and the cuts to seniors that this budget restores. Is this a reward for the premier’s Howe Street friends?”

The biotechnology sector, O’Neill noted, gets a $20-million-per-year cut. Hector Mackay-Dunn, a major investor and advocate for the B.C. biotech sector, was on the provincial Liberal planning committee leading up to the May 17 election.

“Meanwhile, the B.C. Liberals have been saying the province ‘can’t afford’ wage increases. Well, we all know that’s not true: Human Resources and Skills Development Canada figures show that B.C. has the lowest annual wage increases in the country.”

O’Neill also commented on the government’s decision to cancel the traditional budget “lock-up” for non-governmental organizations. Until today, business and labour groups, non-profits and professional organizations were given a chance to see the budget documents before the budget speech was delivered.

“This is a break with what has been a parliamentary tradition in B.C. But it’s entirely in keeping with the Liberal philosophy to reduce the oversight of government with cuts to the Auditor General, to the Ombudsman and to the Freedom of Information Commissioner’s office,” said O’Neill.

- 30 -

Contact: Barry O’Neill, (604) 916-8444.

Lets remember we all got tax cuts already. The corporate tax cut is meant to make us competitive with other Povinces. That wa, if a corporation is looking for a Province to do business is BC may look attractive.
The best result is that they open up here and provide jobs for us.
I don't expect Barry o'Neill to admit to understanding such a universal principle.
He boils it down to benefites for Campbells Howe street buddies. Doen anyone besides CUPE members take him seriously ?

Martin:

Find a teacher in BC that states he/she is content to make $14,000 less a year than a teacher in Edmonton or Calgary. Salary grids don't lie I'm afraid. Don't be surprised, next week, when the strike vote percentage is huge. This is the first year in a long time that Education classes at UBC and SFU aren't full. Thanks to numerous BC governments and the media, the teaching profession is becoming less and less attractive.

I have become a member of C.I.R.E....

Teachers deserve to be paid fair regardless of where they choose to live. I think that if we want the best teachers for our children we need to Buck up.

No matter how tight budgets are there is always enough to funnel to the people at the top of the economic food chain.

It looks like Campbell is taking a page from Ralph Klein's playbook. Have the legislative session sit for the minimum number of days it has to. This does numerous things:

- it deprives the opposition television time.
- it lessens the number of embarassing questions and their answers
- it deprives potential leadership rivals a chance to shine
- most importantly,it allows more decisions to be made behind closed doors in caucus outside of pesky scrutiny.

Aboriginal Support in Budget:
The Liberals managed to hijacked one of the old leftie/socialists favourite rant and whine issues right from underneath their (NDP) noses.....How poorly the Liberals treat First Nations people. Jeez, come to think of it the leftie/socialist dinosaurs squawk and squeal about how badly the Liberals treat every special interest group in the Province with the possible exception of the matrons in West Vancouver. I thought the NDP had a whole whack of bright young researchers...I guess they're just a little slow getting out of the gate.

How come the chamber of commerce is never considered a special interest group?

Why are these postings all underlined?

Hey Eddy Haskel, Just an FYI, the 3 fast cats currently docked in North Van at the Washington Marine Group (you know the company that built them, the one we owe 430 mil to and sold back to them via Gordo's auction
for 20 mil , less that scrap value) Anyway , they are retrofitting them now to only take passengers, they are also trying to arrange a run to Nanaimo like the current harbor to harbor ferry. We will see them soon running and
making a killing, people should take to the streets,

How about Teresen, why would we sell a company that made 2 billion in profit in 2004 to a US firm Duke Energy( former Enron boss) for 7 bill, God someone is making out nice on that deal. I wonder if the NDP will challenge or make submissions at the BC Ulil comm or will they just rubber stamp it.

More blusing corporate cuts, Carole T can put her shoes where her tongue is,

You want to talk special interest, just turn of CKNW aka Red Neck Radio and give your head a shake.

1) The Stinking Far Right Wing Fraser Institute
2) Business Council Of British Columbia
3) Independent Contractors and Businesses Association of British Columbia
4) The Vancouver Board Of Trade
5) Gordon Campbell's Brother Mike Campbell (Vancouver Sun)
6) Gordon Campbell's official Right Wing Cheerleaders, The Canadian Tax Payers Federation

Tips on how to track who the real "special interest" groups are that the Liberals are listening to: Go to Elections BC website; click on election finace button, go to
"financial reports filed with Elections BC and a page with a filter will come up; type in liberal and you will be led to two documents. The Political Party document is very large: 645 pages so it will take awhile to
download. Check on the category for the highest amount donated and voila!

electionsbc.ca

And check periodically at http://www.bcbid.gov.bc.ca/ for contracts being bid on.
BC Bid Opportunities - Services by Organization
http://www.bcbid.gov.bc.ca/bcbohtm/servmin.htm

Telus is a big supporter hence the Liberals silence on the lock out and many other issues dealing with bad service etc,

Also the BC Restaurant association, aka lowering min wage to 6 bucks,

Mining , aka lowered environmental protections,

Corus Radio( CKNW, Rock 101, The Fox, News 1130, and CFUN) makes you sick, all the hosts by the way, Bill Good, Peter Warren , Lacomb, Till, Sterling Fox, David Burner, all BC Lib card holders.

[/U]

testing

Well, I tried...

I agree with Martin. and to respond to the comments from Chris H the reason why teaching is becoming a less attractive profession is due to the self serving BCTF political agenda and the fact that we really do have over 30,000 fewer kids in the classroom. We can all debate ratios between fewer kids and fewer teachers but at the end of the day fewer kids = fewer teachers. I know many recent graduates who cannot get on with any school district due to all of the recent layoffs from declining enrollment.

Martin is right, every district in this Province has a drawer full of resumes for people eager to become teachers. It is a waste of taxpayer money to not recognize that. If you would like Edmonton wages move to Edmonton, there are hundreds of teachers lined up to replace you here in BC. Fact not fiction.

What bothers me is that the BCTF make twice what any HEU member does with three times the holidays, yet these self serving bastards go on strike and it is the working people who suffer the most. The rich can afford to take time of work and likely only have one spouse working anyways, but the working person get’s screwed. And for what? For the greedy BCTF to make even more money?

HEU staff that have been privatized and are on strike because they make peanuts are expected to lose a days work for the BCTF? I don’t think so. It’s time for the wealthy in this province, including the BCTF to stand up for the little people like the HEU not vice versa like the lousy leadership is suggesting. The HEU needs your support and the BCTF needs nothing but a kick in the ass to see the damage from their own greed

verso

Highlight what you want to underline, or any of the above, then click on that symbol.

It will look strange before you post because it marks each end of your passage but trust me.

If it don'r work, Lynn told me how to do it.

As I was reading the comments here I was listening to the news.

The B.C. deficit has been growing under the liberals and is projected to reach $38 billion by 2008. In light of this, does it make sense to give another tax cut to corporations that are raking in record profits at this time? How about spreading the wealth around a bit? Oh silly me, this is B.C.

As for teaching becoming less attractive:

Teacher bashers are one of the problems that impact the teaching profession. Imagine working in a tough stressful job, where day in and day out the switeks of the world, vent their narrow-minded vitriol. Teacher bashing seems to have replaced racism for a certain type of people. The teachers are treated as a visible minority that the bigots can hate without worrying about censure for political incorrectness. Teachers have become the whipping boy for masah switek and his type.

switek, you sound like you would like to lynch a few teachers, maybe burn a cross or two on their lawns to scare them a bit. Whip those teachers until they are happy. Yassah! Yassah!

A case in point switek, most teachers I know had parents that were married. I suggest that you look up the meaning of the word bastard.

Calling teachers bastards is an example of exactly the same type of rhetoric aimed at racial minorities for exactly the same agenda. Switek when you try to dehumanize people, any group of people it says a lot about you, not your parents or their marital status when you were born, just about you.

Now I suggest switek you go thank a teacher for teaching you how to read. Probably that one that one that kept you for recess because you weren't getting it quite as quickly as the other kids did. No wonder you hate teachers.

[/U] Thanks for the Link Chris. Hmm, things I didn't realize. Teachers automatically get a $2103 raise each year, no matter how they perform. So they want to strike because they want a bigger raise. I was thinking, well, it would only be fair to have teacher's salaries go up by the rate of inflation, so this whole freeze is probably unfair. But alas, it looks like entry level teachers automatically get a 4% increase. But I can tell you this you'll need to pay be more than 10% extra to move to Toronto.

As for RAV and Skytrain, has anyone ever take a bus from Surrey to Downtown, I've taken one from New West to Downtown and it took almost 2 hours. The skytrain seems pretty worthwhile to me, especially as gas prices rise. Its a major infrastructure, but it sure serves a lot of good. There are two options for suburban transit of that capacity, underground, or above ground. Light rail may work for the west coast express, because it runs along water where there are no thoroughways, but you can't put ground level transit, it would block off every major intersection, cause safety issues as you would need to fence of every damn metre of it, and would be generally problematic.

As for comments on why the PPP fails, it may be more of a public, public, public, private, but no private company wanted to invest in it, as the fares would be capped and market value couldn't be charged. Ie, like all public transit and public services, those who make more and own more property subsidize those who don't. Its really a public expenditure, but who thought it was anything else. PPP really was a buzword that has gone out almost as quickly as it came in. There is no partnership, its just business. Ever watch basic TV, you get it free, you watch advertisements. Read 24, same thing. I'm fine having to look at companies ads, and picking up a burger at a Skytrain MCD's if I'm hungry, if it means by fair will be 25c lower.

Thanks skeptikool, I was actually trying to turn off the underline. I don't know if you see it, but the last half dozen posts are underlined. I thought there may be an open tag.

I'll send a email to the admin, maybe no one has told them...

Umslopogaas, everyone loves teachers, except when the word strike comes up. When the doctors wanted to strike they were overpaid as well. Why? We as the public feel we are being held hostage in a dispute that we have no say in.

This isn't Telus or the CBC. If they strike, I can change my internet service or the channel. But when public sector workers go on strike, its something else. In the private sector, if I'm not making what I want, I look for a new job. If I'm specialized, I may seek a new jurisdiction and move. But with unions, they are doing so on mass. They don't give workers a choice to work, if you cross picket lines you are intimidated with threats.

Will,

Can you give me a link for materials associates with these "votes"? Are the estimates to bedebated available on the Ministry of Fiannce website or elsewhere? I'd like to follow along as the sparks fly.

It was reported tonight that the teachers are asking for a 35% raise, including improved benefits. I wonder how many working people had a good laugh at that one. Not only that, but they want more teacher-librarians to run those little rooms with a few books and computers in them, plus smaller class sizes, plus more esl teachers, plus more special-ed teachers, plus more counsellors, even though the system is running well and provincial exam marks are as high as they've ever been. What's it really all about? Lots more money for lots more teachers equals lots more cash into the bctf's coffers so they can play politics for a few more years. What a bloody joke.

Umslopogas you must be a teacher. If you think teaching is stressful trying doing a 12-hour shift cleaning up in and around an emergency ward for a few weeks. Just try it. Trying dealing with a meth head that looses it and no security is on site to deal with it even though they are paid to be. Imagine having a bad back and your hand numb after a long shift. And your reward for all your work is to have your wages cut. I am supposed to have sympathy for a teacher who got a big wage increase? When you wages are cut you cannot afford to take a day off. If our lovely BCTF decides to go out on stike that means you can’t work because your kids cannot be in class and that takes money from the household all for the greedy people who make twice the wage with three times the holiday. I am sorry umslopogas but teachers have no clue what it is like for real working people in this province and evidently neither do you.

Umslopogaas and switek,

Good work you two! Having two "working" people fight it out. No wonder either union can not gain any sympathy from the public. Just what the neocons want.

Both of you make some excellent points, but they get lost in the ad hominem attacks.

Umslopogaas, although I agree with you, further alienating switek is not going to win him/her over in the end. Keep calm and play nice!

Switek, my wife is a teacher, and I see what we had to invest for her to become one. Two univesity degrees, an unpaid practicum that she had to pass, and then fight for a job. Remember, there is also a high drop-out rate for student teachers and those new to the profession. There is also no overtime for those Christmas productions and teams she coaches. Hmmmm, firefighters and police officers get overtime, but I guess they are "essential services".

Better yet, become a teacher! If it is "free money" compared to your backbreaking job, then you are crazy to continue with your present line of work. And because teachers only work a few months of the year, you can probably keep your other job as well if you insist on playing the martyr.

Now both of you, be nice to each other.

Dangrice:

Teachers in their first 10 or ll years get "pay hikes" as they move up the incremental steps to being a fully-paid teacher. After they hit the top of the scale, there are no more increases. It is the longest "apprenticeship" I know of. A first year teacher in Toronto, however, gets paid the same as a teacher with five years teaching experience in Vancouver.

I hope the BCPSEA releases their figures on how they reached a 35% increase. I don't find them too believable. On their side, all they have been asking for is concessions. Forget about 0-0-0.

Grumpy, check your facts.

Malaysia and New York (JFK Airport) use the similar (possibly the same) technology. Although Bombardier is a tax toilet, it is still a Canadian company that produces a reasonable product that people around the world are willing to buy.

Who would you buy from instead?

Moat,

Thank you for your comments. What bothers me is that the BCTF leadership does not seem to comprehend that the public does not have any sympathy for someone who after ten years makes over $ 60 K a year with three months of holidays asking for a 35% wage increase. More so when someone making that kind of money when trying to make even more, heads out on strike and causes people struggling just to get by to actually loose money in the process. That is not fair. This has nothing to do with the Neocons only for them to observe that greed is greed on all levels.

This action by the BCTF will only undermine support for the Union movement and give all Unions a blackeye. For those new HEU members currently on strike trying to just make over $ 12 hour they will suffer form the anti-Union mentality fueled form BCTF job action. What most bothers me is that the BCTF knows full well they will get nothing and will be legislated back to work anyways as they always have. Yet still they will cause disruptions to my kids and will take much needed money form my household that I cannot afford. What for ? Just to further their political agenda at the expense of people like me. That is how things work as I see it and I think it is wrong.

Chris, 42K, isn't exactly what I call an apprenticeship, and according to your own pay scale, 1st year teachers in Vancouver still make more than 1st year in Toronto as of this year. Regardless of having to live in TO.

Stuart, We don't own Teresen. Are you suggesting we nationalize it? As far as your put down of everything CKNW does, how do you know this unless you are listening to it. Why do you listen to it if it upsets you so much ?
I know for a fact that none of the hosts you accuse of holding BC Liberal memberships actually do belong.
Why do you lie on this site ? Constantly lie ? It's not working, so stick to the facts. Find a person making $6.00 per hour, I dare you. There are no known employees in Victoria getting the training allowance wage of $6.00 per hour.

Heard Jinny Sims this morning talking about 'draconian working conditions' and 'stripped benefits'. Say what?

Hey Ron
Go check out the donor government website in my previous post and you will see the Corus patronage. Anyway, the fact you can't see the CKNW cheerleading is part of the problem, you don' t have context Ron , its not your fault. As far as the 6 dollar wage, check into the Burnaby North Liberal MLA, the guy
who owns 4 A@W's , see what the majority of his employees are making.

Yep , I heard all this anti teacher stuff in Ont under the Mike Harrisite gov, Gordo has taken a page right out of the book. Teachers have to go to university for a min of 5 years and make much less than other occupations
with the same educational requirements, having happy teachers teaching your kids is a good thing. Let the public consume each other while Gordo's corporate buddies get blushing tax cuts, 400 mil plus , their is money to property fund schools with no labor chaos, a strike is the only way to pressure the government to act in a responsible way, the
teachers are asking for some of the brutal cuts to go be rolled back. Any collective party that can apply pressure and
have a strong public voice against this brutal regime called the BC LIbs will be vilified by the MSM and you will start to hear the rhetoric flow, stop being Petty folks and focus on the issue, 1.5% to corporations and nothing for the folks teaching our kids, I say all the unions should stick together and go out on a general strike, take this corrupt arrogant gov down.

C.I.R.E.

Remember!

Membership has its benefits!

I do not know how much teachers earn a year, but I will say this:

It strikes me as odd that the MLAs can give themselves a raise and justify it by saying that they need to attract better politicians (what does that say about the "cheaper" pokliticians of the past?); and to ensure better people run for office....

And at the same time the governmnet argues that hospital workers should work for less money-I suppose that means, based on governmnet logic, that they are trying to attract less competent workers to clean hospitals and feed patients!!!!!!!!!

As for teachers and the possibility of a strike; it is interesting to note by the postings and media coverage, that many parents lament that if a strike happens they will have to find someone, or themselves, to look after their kids-Seems to me then that many see school as an expensive daycare facility!

Budget,,,grand work of fiction. Lets all take a bow when Liberals give back the money they already cut 4 years ago and want applause for it. In a lot of cases it isnt even back to funding 4 years back (without factoring in inflation since then.)

Teachers ? I see the mainstream media
( Canwest ) is aleady pitching pro Lib anti union headlines on this issue...Lot like the pre election coverage...very slanted.

this is an underline test

Stuart

"Brutal" is what people in Afghanistan and Iraq deal with on a daily basis, not what unionized workers or any workers in BC have to contend with. The continuous exaggerated rhetorical babble turns off rational people, no wonder the leftist parties can never get elected in this country.

For how many decades have the Federal NDP got only 20% of the vote at max. I don't know how they will ever break beyond that number when Canadians already have a left leaning Liberal Party of Canada to vote for.
All the NDP can do to hurt the Liberals is to support the Consevatives. The NDP don't have any new ideas. They are still living off the works of Tommy Douglas.

The Canwest Global and Quebecor Sun newspapers actively campaign against the NDP. What is amazing is with zero support from the corporate media they still garner 20% of the vote. Compare that to the Conservatives at 24%who get glowing praise from same media and who is doing worse.

Ron and his ilk will say the CBC supports the NDP but they cover all the parties equally, it is their mandate.

The thing is, people like medicare and education. The federal Conservatives will struggle a long time because of the free-trade betrayal of the last Conservative government. If Brian Mulroney had not forced free-trade against the majority who rejected it the P.C. party might still be governing or stand a chance at re-election.

I agree with sparkyboy that the BCTF will only fuel the fire of the anti Union segment, that has been my point all along. The lousy part is that the BCTF is taking all the attention away form what really should be the two important issues being a fair wage increase for people who REALLY need the money like the HEU and the bloody corporate tax giveaway that Campbell just rewarded his friends and supporters with. As always the little guy ends up getting screwed, in this case by the greed of the corporate neocons and the BCTF. The two groups least deserving of more money.

maot. Point well taken.

I appologize to switek for reacting to his/her angst. I truly recognize the hardship that HEU employees face on a daily basis and the bitterness that they feel over the abuse heaped on them by liberals.

I also remember the joys of 90 hour weeks with no overtime pay that I endured in Ontario when I was younger. I never wanted to go back to that once I had a decent union job as a coal miner in B.C. with benefits and over twice the wage. God Bless the union and the people that struggled to build it and the breaks I was given as a result.

Teachers are about to fight a battle that will set the tone in B.C, for years to come. Teachers, coal miners and just about every other union were ready to walk to help the HEU last go round. We nearly had operation Solidarity again but it fizzled.

We can either hang together or hang seperately.

We should not ever let Gordo and his gang pit us against each other. If the teachers lose here then look forward the next union being picked off, nurses, coal miners, it doesn't matter. Gordo is out to get you and he will try to make the unions fall one at a time.

I was just listening to Carol tell us how all the other groups(Union) were happy with the 000% or less as times are so tough, It caused me to wonder why they gave themselves raises to

it's just more Global spin

Umsloopagas,

I accept your apology, and your comforting words. I do think that you might be wrong about the BCTF. I think they will loose this battle with the government and I think they know that. That is what troubles me with their actions. Under Campbell the BCTF and the RN’s and the doctors got some good money, but the BCGEU and the HEU got screwed with job losses, privatization and cutbacks. CUPE also got hurt.

There were two things I liked about the budget, more money for the teachers and the CBC gal saying that public sector people deserved more money in the upcoming contracts. My worry is that it is the BCTF’s turn to take the same pain the rest of us did. I don’t think the public has much sympathy for the BCTF and I am worried any job action by the BCTF will only make the public more pissed off at Unions. If the public turns against Unions, there could be more damage to those who need it the most. I can assure you that members of the HEU would only dream to have conditions and wages like the BCTF. I also understand what you are saying about sticking together, but after wage cuts I cannot afford even one day off work if the BCTF takes job actions.

What really bothers me is the government probably wants the BCTF to go on strike, they save money and people get mad at Unions. The rich who support the Liberals don’t care because they can afford the strike or have kids in some private Christian school so it makes no difference. I don’t know if the BCTF really realize the impact that people on limited wages face with job action. It is huge. And if they will just get legislated back to work anyway, and we all know they will, it makes me say why bother at all ? I honestly don’t think the BCTF get’s it, and the rest of us have to pay for that ignorance. I am sorry to feel this way, but financially it is my reality.

Sorry I meant to say more money for the seniors, not the teachers. And in fairness to Carole, I support people like her getting more money. The base pay for an MLA is $ 75 and that is only $ 10 k more than a teacher makes for ten times the workload. The opposition will be working ten times harder now

I know a few teachers and I know this: Some teachers put in 10 hr + days and that includes preparation in late Aug, sometimes several weeks of it if they face a change in teaching duties.

That applies to those who, just as in other jobs, take considerable care to give their best to their calling,

On the other hand, there are those who put in 6 hrs a day or less, who have the seniority to hold the best positions, to command the best pay, and seem to be answerable to noone.

The core problem there, just as it is with other unions, is that these df'ers are very visible to both the public and the employer, but are protected by the "Seniority Clause" (which, incidentally, I support).

The answer to this is simple. Unions should take full resonsibility for the performance of their membership.

If a member screws up, the union is responsible for the fix-up. It still is if the member does it again, but now the member is decertified and no longer works in that trade/profession.

It is long past time Unions started to realise times have changed, and that while we do have a right to a job, we also have a responsibility to perform it well.

For the most part the public's perception is that teachers and public sector unionists are a bunch of whining crybabies. I've been around schools enough to know that teachers generally have a pretty good gig. The good ones, who can control their classes and relate to the kids, are pretty happy in their work. They're also worth their weight in gold, and should be compensated fairly with bonuses and incentive pay. Of course the BCTF mentality won't allow that because it would be 'unfair' to the shitty ones, who are miserable as hell and fuel the union fires. Jinny Sims et al will always be at odds with the Liberals, no matter what kind of contract they offer b/c that's what they're all about. This started with Cubanovsky and will continue until this particular group is out.

scylla:

Re: "The answer to this is simple. Unions should take full resonsibility for the performance of their membership.

If a member screws up, the union is responsible for the fix-up. It still is if the member does it again, but now the member is decertified and no longer works in that trade/profession.

It is long past time Unions started to realise times have changed, and that while we do have a right to a job, we also have a responsibility to perform it well."

A unions' only responsibility is to ensure that the union member is being treated fairly by management. Mangagement's responsibility is to manage. There is no collective agreement anywhere in the world that forces management to keep an incompetent employee. However, the burden of proof must be provided by the employer before any action can be taken, especially once the employee is no longer on probation.

In my experience, people will try and get away with as much as they can. Managers who are afraid to manage end up with employees who disrespect them and avoid doing their job. Once one employee gets away with it, the rest will start to wonder why they are working so hard. Then most will stop working hard because they know that they won't be punished.

nemesis:

Yes, the public's perception is that unions and public sector workers are cry babies. That is mostly because of unending negative coverage by the media, who are in the pockets of big business and the government. When is the last time you heard something good said about unions or public sector workers?

Goebbels once said that if you repeat a lie enough times, eventually it becomes true. How many lies have been told and repeated in the last four years?

Dear Switek,Obviously you are old enough to have been subject to a few strappings in the principals office.Let it go and move on.I strongly doubt a regular backbench MLA works any harder than a good teacher.The last time I checked the Legislative Assembly sits many days less than school is in session.The neocon agenda is divide and conquer.Try and look at the bigger picture.All working class people have to stick together,and I include teachers in this category.While I believe ALL people deserve a livable wage,the fact is that the more education you obtain the more money you make.Your attack on teachers and the current fight the HEU is involved in are not really comparable.I fully support the HEU in its battle for fair wages,but leave the teachers out of it!

Switek

I am troubled by your criticism of the BCTF for their stand in the current round of bargaining. I gather from your posts that you are an HEU worker. Most of the teachers I know were ready to hit the bricks in support of the HEU walkout. I would also like to remind you that it was not the BCTF that cut the deal that is causing you so much hardship, but your own leadership and that of the BC Fed. What happened to you and your colleagues was terrible, inexcusable really, and represents a trend that all union members, public and private, need to work hard to reverse. This will be achieved when unions have the courage to take on the corporate agenda and stand together in support of each other. Attacking other unions because you feel their members are better off than you is almost certainly counterproductive to that effort.

Also, the figures regarding reductions in teachers and support services cannot be so easily dismissed. Lower student numbers can account for only a small percentage of the overall losses. The rest has been achieved by significantly reduced services for your children and mine. And while you feel that many people would like to join the profession, the fact remains that 40% of new teachers, after having invested at least five years of their lives and tens of thousands of dollars in their education, leave teaching within the first five years of employment. There may be many reasons for the exodus, but it does suggest that the grass on the teacher's side of the fence may not be quite as green as it seems from the outside.

The 35% salary demand figure, by the way, is a fabrication of the employers' bargaining agent, BCPSEA. It has no basis in reality. It is a reality that teachers in comparable jurisdictions elsewhere are earning substantially more money, and this is already attracting bright young teachers out of the province.

I recall, during the HEU crisis, people on call-in programs and in letters to the editor slamming those lazy HEU workers who were earning $40,000 a year to sweep floors when their counterparts in the private sector were doing the same job for $8 an hour. I don't believe this was a fair representation of your situation, Switek, any more than I believe what the government and the main-stream media are saying about teachers. As a labour movement and as a society, we've got stop beating each other up and start standing together to achieve better pay and conditions for every working person in our community and around the world. We don't have to like everything that the BCTF does, but they are not the villain here. Let's focus our anger where it belongs.

Grumpy,

I live in Delta, which is not yet served directly by SkyTrain. If it was so and if, in fact, the whole Lower Mainland was directly served by the system 7/24, it would have incredible ridership and support, since it would require less subsidy - if any.

In one respect, the planners did go the Cadillac route. If the system had not been overbuilt, I believe a much larger portion of the eventual grid could be in current use and producing revenue.

Much less excavating, steel, concrete and labor would have been required if a system of steel supports on concrete footpads had been used. Such a method also would also facilitate moving portions of track if necessary to conform to changing population densities.

They haven't learned. In the RAV extension, we are being force-fed filet-mignon when we should be looking at wieners and beans.

The problem is that it is a struggle to get to that point. Ten years is a long time to saddle someone with heavy debt. Remember, you need to link salary with how much one invests in their education.

I do agree with you here. The BCTF and its members should stop pretending it is all about the students. A true union represents its members, and the BCTF has difficulty doing that at times.

Teachers do not have the opportunity to make overtime like police officers and firefighters. People just expect them to coach sports and put on those school plays.

As well, a teacher worth their salt takes marking home with them because he or she is spending the classroom time interacting with the students.

And maybe the BCTF should get out of the way, but so should the government. This way teachers may act as true "professionals" and negotiate their worth on the open market. The teachers would set the curriculum based on what the market wants at a particular moment. Scary thought, but we would be rid of that BCTF right?

P.S. How did an article on the provincial budget, which has no mention of teachers, prompt such a spewing of anti-BCTF venom?

Anti-BCTF venom isn't too hard to find, even amongst many teachers, if you talk to them confidentially. This leadership group is exacerbating their image problem and the gov't is loving it.

September 17, 2005

ROBBINS Sce Research (1998)
robbinssceresearch.com

For immediate release-

Glen P. Robbins President and C.E.O of ROBBINS Sce Research (1998) says, “that the current difficulties involving B.C.’s teachers feature underlying systemic problems which aren’t being properly dealt with.” Adds Robbins, “these systemic problems in the education system will not be resolved by yet another trip around the mulberry bush involving erstwhile negotiations, the Labour Relations Board, and back to work legislation.”

Robbins takes the position that “something or someone has to break here, in order to allow an opportunity to re-assess and re-evaluate an education system which has for all intents and purposes been broken for some time.”

Robbins points to but a few systemic problem, both theoretical and practical in their constitution including:

· Teachers want to be called ‘workers’ and ‘professionals’. Although a worker can be professional about their work, it is difficult to consider teachers in the same light as doctors and lawyers. Teachers demand workers rights and professionals pay.
· Either the teachers college or the BC Teachers Federation has got to go.
· There is a serious problem relating to who is in charge of each individual school. Under School Act regulation 265/89 “The principal of the school is responsible for administering and supervising the school including the general conduct of students.” However, the B.C. Teachers Provincial Agreement essentially permits the teachers to operate in schools under their agreement without proper and effective authority being granted to those responsible for the school namely the Principal.”

· As part of the solution Principals authority in schools MUST clearly override any provisions under the Teachers Provincial Collective Agreement. Each school is an institution and no institution can work properly without someone in absolute charge of the facility, which is NOT the case currently.
· Robbins estimates that at least 1 out of 20 schoolteachers in BC classrooms is “likely incompetent and should not be teaching anyone’s child.” Robbins bases this assertion from overall actuarial statistics, which hold for most ‘professionals’. “Before classroom sizes and additional teachers can be considered it is first necessary to weed out poor teachers and replace them with better ones.”
Robbins urges Premier Gordon Campbell to “abandon a return to the ‘same old-same old’ pattern of dealing with the problem, to keep the Labour Relations Board out of the process, and permit the teachers to strike if that is what they choose.”

“Legislating teachers back to work is a half measures solution and as a result children are really only getting half educations, and parents are only getting half their tax dollars worth.”

Concludes Robbins “the Premier has to realize that the path we are going down in this Province as far as are education system is concerned, is only a band-aid/ temporary solution. This time around we need to sort this problem out once and for all.”

Glen P. Robbins

(604) 942-3757
-30

I wonder if "Robbins" will ever stop talking about himself in the third person. It was cute for awhile, but enough already.

Robbins:

You stated: "Each school is an institution and no institution can work properly without someone in absolute charge of the facility, which is NOT the case currently."

Can you explain what you mean here? The principal has the authority to do quite a lot actually. What are the missing pieces? No one I know has "absolute charge" of anything. There are always "laws" that everyone has to follow. Should the principal be able to shoot you dead for talking in the halls?

For most teachers, the professional autonomy clause is the most important piece of their collective bargaining agreement. I've actually had a principal that didn't understand the difference between modified and adapted curriculum; something every first year teacher knows. Teachers take their professional responsibilities seriously and to suggest that "legislating teachers back to work is a half measures solution and as a result children are really only getting half educations" is ignorant at best.

The system worked better when teachers were a professional association. Now that they're a union they're tied in to Jim Sinclair and the B.C. Fed and the rest of the public sector unions. They've lost sight of the big picture and are far too busy playing left-right politics. This has tainted the image of the profession. You can't have it both ways. You can't be treated as a 'professional', a la doctors and lawyers, and a unionist. Also things have gotten much worse since David Chudnovsky and his gang have taken power. They're even too far left for the traditional lefties.

I appreciate some of the comments said here, but it also bothers me I should be blindly expected to support certain things because of the status quo. As for sticking together that is what bother me the most, every other Union had to accept a wage freeze period, and even worse reductions and job losses. The BCTF did NOT they got a big raise. Now, it is the BCTF turn to do what everyone else had to do but instead of sticking together to do their part, they expect special treatment and feel they should be treated differently than everyone else. I think is very unfair and selfish.

I also think that BCTF leadership sounds more and more like spoiled kids who cry when they do not get what they want and expect to have their cake and eat it too. This is only making more people hate Unions. Everyone knows that Campbell will do whatever he want’s to do and he has said no more money for BCTF. Even Carole James said she would not give the BCTF any more money. This means the BCTF will NOT get any more money. Instead they will fight the inevitable, hurt real working people, and make more people hate Unions all for what? Just to further their ongoing political agenda. I just think it is greedy unfair BS and it is time for everyone to stand up to this kind of crap. No real working person will benefit from this, in fact we will ALL suffer.

I'm trying to understand your sentence here Switek: "The BCTF did NOT they got a big raise."

Are you saying the teachers got a big raise? When was that? Since I've been a teacher the increases have been: 0,0,2,2.5,2.5,2.5,0. That is 9.5% over 7 years which does not even keep up with inflation, and is far below the the annual average weekly slary increases for those years for all workers. Do I think HEU workers deserved their former pay? I sure do. But, that doesn't change the fact that the teachers of this province are falling behind the salary paid to teachers in other provinces. Like doctors, teachers are not easily replaced as a group. That is why when the doctors took collective job action a few years back, the government took notice.

The Supreme Court of Canada has just recently agreed to hear the HEU's case of the constitutionality of unilaterally breaking and stripping their collective bargaining agreement and I hope they win. Teachers were about to walk off the job in political action and in support of the HEU workers just as the HEU signed the agreement with the province. To suggest that teachers are just greedy is an ignorant statement.

Seems to me that the BCTF has fared quite well with their 9.5%.

The issue here is the competing interests for the taxpayers dollar. No one wants a tax increase. We already pay too many taxes and government user fees.

We need smaller government, we need to take a hard look at what government programs that we really need and get rid of the rest. Governments at ALL levels have become too bureaucratic, administratively heavy and really are not effective. Too many meetings, too many promises that are never really made, poor project management and atrocious spending sprees.

The cost for essential programs like education, health, and social services has become a huge problem. With in those programs we have duplicate services at several levels of government and arms length agencies.

How much can we afford and how many of us can afford the demands?

So, sdgreen, what is the solution? Should we make Education a user pay service run by the private sector? I have no doubt I could earn more money that way. Unfortunately, there would be many families that simply could not afford the tuition fees that would make it profitable to run a private school (even with taking over $5 billion off of taxes).

Chris H,

What I am saying is that under Campbell the BCTF got 7.5 % in wage increases. While you might not think 7.5 % is very much, let me tell you, it is one hell of a ton more money than a near 14 % wage cut. Also don’t forget the BCGEU and CUPE did not get a 7.5% increase either. These workers ALL took the zero mandate contracts and now it is your turn to accept the same, fair and square.

I also hear that there are 30,000 fewer students out there, as much as the BCTF tries to hide that fact, fewer kids means fewer teachers so I don’t think a teacher is an as much demand as a doctor is, as much as the BCTF might try to brainwash us into thinking otherwise. Form what I understand only Ontario and Alberta pay teachers more money than BC does; so this sound s about right to me.

Are you going to tell me that you can look yourself in the mirror and be proud of how the BCTF leadership represents you?

Please keep in mind that teachers did not agree to that 7.5%. It was legislated and the province did not fund the school boards to pay it. They then stripped contracts of class size limits and requirements for positions like teacher librarians. This is the part that has really hurt. Because of the government’s actions, school boards all across the province were forced to cut teaching positions, close schools, and sadly, turn to CUPE staff for even more cuts.

I am a teacher and proud of it. I make a decent salary compared to some in our community but I earn it. I average 60 hours a week for 40 weeks a year. I have spent 8 years upgrading my education in my own time or paying for by teaching only .84 time. I have done this mainly because of my love of learning but also as this has been the only way to obtain any meaningful wage increase. I don’t expect to be paid doctors wages but I do expect to be treated like a professional who has specialized training and knowledge.

In the present dispute, salaries are at the bottom of the list. First and foremost we want to have the right to bargain. This would not cost anything. We are not an essential service in the same light as medical workers, police, or fire fighters. When we don’t show up for school, no body is going to die.

Second, we want to be able to negotiate such things as class size limits. I am sure the bargaining team has some numbers that they want to present, but first we have to have this right restored. Then we can negotiate the details. I know from personal experience how frustrating it can be to try to teach in a class of 30 students. You are basically only “running herd” on them. Today, 30 students in a class is considered small in some schools.

After these two issues are dealt with, we can talk salaries. We already have had 0% for last year. I think many teachers would accept another 0% for this year if there was progress on the above items and if there was some promise of an increase in the third year. I think the province tried to get around their zero and zero mandate by offering the crown attorneys 0%, 0%, and 13% ,and provincial judges got 0%, 0% and something ridiculous like 25%. I am not suggesting that teachers are asking for that much, but some type of 0%, 0%, and something% has not even been floated as far as I can tell.

For the BCPSEA to come out with a 35% number is unprofessional on their part and strictly political.

As for my faith in the leadership of the BCTF, let me reassure folks that I consider the BCTF one of the most democratic organizations I have ever belonged to. I have not been to an Annual General Meeting, but by listening to people that have, I can see that the decisions of the executive come directly from the rank and file. We are all individuals and may or may not support every little thing that comes down the pipe in the BCTF, but by and large the leaders are expressing the same concerns as the vast majority of the members. As people on the front line of education in the province, teachers are expressing their concern about where it is heading. Our present government certainly seems to want to under fund public education and then find how we are doing on meaningless exams that test only content and no critical thinking skills. But that is another story. Excuse me now while I get back to that pile of marking.

ronny irwin spews "I know for a fact that none of the hosts you accuse of holding BC Liberal memberships actually do belong."

How can you prove this ronny are you a special friend of all these talking heads? You a liberal insider who has access to the membership list? Whats your story pal?

The BCTF leadership is there because the membership of the BCTF gave them a mandate. If you want to know how teachers feel then watch Friday to see how big the strike mandate is.

Star Craxy,

It is exactly that BCTF perspective on the world that I find so offensive. You spout off about the 7.5% wage increase as if it inferior because you did not agree to it. Do you feel you were worth more than a pay hike of only 7.5 % Is this somehow beneath you ? Do you not realize other people got nothing or how about less, less and less ? How about no job at all. That is the reality of other workers and you complain about the 7.5 % raise you got. How ungrateful

You then mention that the government did not fund you wage increase to school boards, although according to a trustee I spoke with last week, they did fund at least one year. So for the next two years guess where your extra money pay raise had to come from ? It came out of the classroom. The BCTF tries to hide that fact. You blame the government’s actions, however those actions were to increase your wages and you even have the nerve to complain about it.

Nobody is going to die if you don’t show up for school? maybe not, but there are medical professions within the HEU who have also taken courses and upgraded themselves at their own expense and if they all could not get to work because they could not afford daycare, even if there were no daycare waitlists, then there could be in jeopardy as a result. But you would not care would you. You don’t realize that there are working people struggling just to make the monthly ICBC payment and one lost shift can be that payment. So your not showing up for school can really mess up the lives of others, including kids that you claim to care about.

You accuse the BCPSEA of being “unprofessional” and “strictly political” I don’t suppose you would see the irony in that statement would you? I suppose it is all just like those “meaningless” exams you refer to. As a parent these are our one remaining link to establish the accountability of the education system and how our kids measure up. I hope as you navigate through your pile of marking tonight you keep the one ideal with you; amidst all the politics and propaganda exams are but all we have left of the integrity our school system.

OK, we get it switek. Because the HEU did not have the power to force government's hand, any other group that does use their legitimate bargaining rights to help with negotiations are greedy scumbags. Everyone should accept rollbacks because the HEU felt they had to. Additionally, teachers have to stay on the job so that workers who are inadequately paid do not have to look after their children. You are entitled to your opinions.

No one said life was easy or fair. CEOs will continue to give themselves raises even if the company losses money. People with more education will make more money than an unskilled worker even if that worker is working 80 hours a week doing backbreaking work. Some people inherit so much money that they don't have to work a day in their life. After working in the DTES, I could point to many families that would give anything for a job like an HEU worker has. All of it has little to do with the teachers negotiating a new contract.

Teachers have given up raises, and will do it again, for improvements in working/learning conditions. Unfortunately, the BC Liberals have determined that teachers have no right to negotiate working conditions anymore. Do you have any idea of what was stripped out of teachers' collective agreements? If it was only about salary, teachers would not be so mad, but we feel betrayed. When we made all those concessions in salary to improve class size and services for children with special needs, it wasn't out of pure greed. Retired teachers across the province are asking themselves why they traded salary for class size if it was just going to be stripped. They thought they were making a difference for the next generation of students.

I am not sure why you are so bitter, switek, but don't hang that cloak of guilt on my shoulders. I can look in the mirror anytime I want to. I am worth every penny I am paid. I am the first educator to enter the building every school day and sometimes the last to leave. I coach sport teams and work on so many committees to try and improve the school that I wonder when I won't have a lunchtime meeting. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I love my job. Just don't think you can make me feel guilty for sticking up for myself or my colleagues.

Take care, switek.

Hey Star Crazy; If you can't teach a class of 30 students without feeling like you're 'running herd' then you'd better find another profession. Besides, aren't you aware of how many studies have shown that class size is not nearly as important as teacher's unions are claiming. Suck it up Star, it's time to earn your $$$$$$.

Nemesis, give us some references to these class-size studies. Otherwise, your posts are total right-wing wet-dream BS, as usual.

'School Class Size: Smaller Isn't Better' July 2005, C.D. Howe Institute. 'Canada's Educational Crisis: Problems, Causes and Solutions', 1994, Mark Holmes. But what's the point Sue, you'll just write it off as right-wing neo-con fascist propaganda anyway. We all know about the Howe Institue, and Mark Holmes is a former teacher, school administrator (boo) and education professor. He says that "class size is essentially irrelevant to meaningful educational reform. It probably makes sense to increase rather than decrease class size in more areas." The Howe Institute study concluded that "the money spent on lower class sizes could be better spent on continuous teacher training, which has been shown to improve student performance."

Yes, I agree with the thinking that class size is not nearly as important as the qualoty of the teacher. This is obvious in any venture. The employee that can handle volume without the qaulity of the job suffering is very valuable. But the BCTF has to dumb down everything to the lowest level in order to protect teachers who just can't cut it.

Switek, so you're saying that because they got an actual cash pay increase under their last imposed contract that the teachers shouldn't try to get back at least some of the funding of support programs? Isn't that like saying that Nursing/Doctors shouldn't be saying that the cuts that happened to their support services (HEU) are wrong because they got a pay increase? So what that the gov't funded the education pay increases for one year the next three the School boards had to cut,cut,and cut. If it was your kids who needed an learning assistant or if you are at the low end of the pay scale(can't afford a computer or internet) and the school library was cutback / closed would you be so against the Teachers demands?

The teachers always refer to the 'contract stripping provisions' of the last imposed contract. What they always fail to mention is that they were given loads of goodies when Glenocchio and Kit Krieger cut a very sweet deal in the back room when the previous contract was 'negotiated'. Giving the teachers the power to negotiate class sizes was completely ridiculous in the first place. Also the number of non-enrolling teachers increased dramatically with that deal.

Moat
I rode on the system in KL (Malaysia) they consider the cars to have a 1/3 more capacity than we do, apparently the other users double the capacity (ugh) no major complaints about the system, mind you they don’t worry about snow and labour to build it is much cheaper.

I lived with a teacher and I must say that a good teacher is very dedicated, spends long hours getting stuff ready for classes and works well past 3:15pm. It is a tough gig to get into and the new teacher has to work hard to build up a inventory of teaching aids and lesson plans.

I also think that teachers and schools are far better equipped to deal with students that like myself had learning disabilities than when I was in school (clay tablets, ink pots, etc,etc)

Some of my criticisms of the school systems and teachers is the amount of “political correctness” being taught without a balance on the debates surrounding the issues. Interesting that firearms are taught to be bad and evil in lower mainland schools, yet my cousin is teaching the PAL and CORE programs for firearms and hunting as part of the curriculum in her rural school. The same differences exist for other issues as well.

Another problem I see is teachers with no life experiences outside of schools trying to educate kids about the world, they teach a very slanted and ideologue view because of their lack of experience. The best teachers I had all came with interesting real life experiences, as veterans, Sheep stations, oversea postings, etc.

I would like to see a situation similar to a seakeeping certificate, where once you have finished your university training that you would be required to take on a another type of work for at least 2 years before becoming a teacher.

Another problem people forget, is that when a member of a union is disciplined or fired, the union is required by law to go to bat for them if requested by the member. Even if the person is at fault and detested by everyone. If the union fails to do so, they can be sued also. It can get very messy. A friend of mine who was a shop steward had to help someone who was useless and dangerous to work with, my friend quit being the shop steward after that experience. Mind you there are lots of collective agreements that never get into the news because the Union & Management work together, rather than against each other.

The BCTF are whiners, area detriment to our education system and should be decertified.

Why? their current remuneration is certainly not bad and that has been enhanced over the last few years by some 9.5% which is more than adequate to cover the cost of living.

BCTF arguments relative to class sizes, and other enhancements, with the exception of teacher assistants for the special attention students, is bogus.

The argument that Toronto teachers are paid more than BC teachers is also bogus and should not be considered.

There is no shortage of teachers. We can fire the lot, and start again if really necessary.

Teachers are nothing special and can be replaced, as can the BCTF.

sdgreen spat...

Teachers are nothing special and can be replaced

Ohhh, such powerful moving words.

I did not realize a profession could attract such scum. Those teachers, a bunch get rich quick money grubbers.

They probably sell the items in the lost and found closet for profit!

But not under your watchful eye....

A comment to Chris H. I have read and re-read your comments several times. If I didn’t know better I would swear I was reading from the neocon manifesto. You comments are clearly self-serving and prove what I have long suspected of the BCTF. You are people who couldn’t give a damned about the rest of us and care only about yourselves.

For you to compare giving up your contract bargaining chips with what it is like to giving up wages is an insult to real working people everywhere. And the BCTF never agreed to give up anything in the past as you have said. In fact no government has ever been able to satisfy to your greed and every one of them, including this one, resorts to the legislative hammer. Something you should think about. Despite that, you are still prepared to keep my kids out of school and cause financial hardship to my family because it is not your fault according to you, I am underpaid.

Well I have news for you Chris. It is your fault. You do have a choice. You can suck it up and go to work like the rest of us have had to, or you can complain and sulk and give all working people a bad name in the process. The sad part, we all know exactly what you will do. I am glad you feel you are worth so much more than the rest of us. Good for you.

Doesn't anyone here have anything to say about the budget?

It appears we're all waiting for the NDP's big guns to open fire.

Meanwhile, the teachers are practicing with their epees for their big fight.

The NDP have no big guns scylla. They're all too worried about their upcoming convention, when Carole James and the 'moderates' will try to shut down big labour. Oh this is going to be so much fun. If she wins they're just another liberal party, if she loses they have no chance next election as absolutely no one wants to be governed by Jim Sinclair, Jinny Sims, Barry O'Neill, George Heyman etc.

don quixote,

The thread does appear to have become a one-issue exchange and to have been hijacked by teachers' issues - undoubtedly because of a current possibility of job actions.

Nonetheless, education is one of the major budget items.

A couple of us mentioned BC Ferries. It sparked little interest, but in the Province today, CEO David Hahn is reported apologizing for the summer's many cancellations, delays and screw-ups.

He also mentions using a local yard to build an intermediate-size vessel. It should be ready by 2007 and its estimated worth will be $50 million. Perhaps those few bucks from the FastCats will help.

If you feel strongly about BC's ferry operation, the Province is asking "What do you think?" Get off a short note before noon and you might see it in tomorrow's paper.

nemesis says:

"Another" liberal party? There is no longer any Liberal party in Canada, not federally, and especially not provincially.

Just one big Real Estate Party selling out Canada from shore to shore to shore.

You know, the idea that performance-based pay for teachers has some merit. Let's pay teachers based upon their skill at their job. Except, I can just see it now. A principal, faced with a hiring choice between a highly-rated and expensive teacher or a lower-cost mediocre one, and stuck with a bare-bones budget would be faced with little choice but to take economy over quality and the kids' education suffer even more.

If you want to do that, let's start at the top. Give the Education minister a wage based on marks and graduation rates. The buck stops where? I'll bet that idea would die on the vine pretty damn fast.

Well, I for one have already stated good reasons why we need to build ferries here. It seems they were told to confine their search for ferries to local builders to avoid another storm which would give the NDP a good starting point to get the debates going.

Colin says " it seems they were told " . Told by who to who. BC Ferries are no longer politically controlled. They have to justify there own existence and raise their own money. They get 100 million dollars a year from Province of BC to provide a ferry service.
There desicion to build 110 meter long ferry that holds 125 cars and 600 passengers, in BC is a decision made without political interference. You know, the same kind of political interference that resulted in the Fast Cats. We need not go down that road again.
Lets here the praise from those previous detractors who screamed bloody murder when they gave the last order to the Germans.

"BC Ferries are no longer politically controlled."

OMG, ROTFL. What's that saying Ron? Better to be silent and thought a fool than open one's mouth (tippy-tap-type the keyboard in your case) and remove all doubt.

If I gave you $100m a year to run a service, you'd better believe I'd have a say in how it's done. I find it hard to believe this situation is any different.

" Giving the teachers the power to negotiate class sizes was completely ridiculous in the first place."

Labour contracts routinely have working condition provisions included. Why is it ridiculous in this instance?

Stump' thank's for the extemely intelligent comments. Well thought out and well said. That's getting to the bottom of it. Way to go bud. Don't comment, simply insult. Now that's constructive.
Are you ready to cheer BC Ferries decision to build this new ferry in BC or not ?
You were quick to decry their them for giving the last order to the Germans, so why are you not cheering their decision to give this order to BC ?
As far as your comments about teachers having a say about their BRUTAL working conditions goes, does this mean you think an NHL hockey player should decide how much ice time he should or should not get ?
I know you hate my simplicity, but at least it's clear and easy to understand. I understand if you disagree with me but at least I don't use code words like OMG,ROTFL do I. So FO.

I didn't say teachers' working conditions were brutal... put those words in someone else's mouth plse.

If hockey players were faced with owners deciding to double the length of games, don't you think it might come up during bargaining? That's a more apt comparison.

Still wondering why it's ridiculous for teachers to want to bargain over their working conditions? It's common to do so in labour negotiations.

BTW, I don't hate the fact you're simple. :-)

"Despite that, you are still prepared to keep my kids out of school and cause financial hardship to my family"

Good to see it's all about education, and not government subsidized daycare!

" Ever watch basic TV, you get it free, you watch advertisements."

Basic tv isn't free. The customer (advertisers) pay the overhead to cover the costs of programming. The audience is the product sold to them. When you watch television, you're not the consumer, you're the item up for sale. Makes that cable bill really seem like a rip-off doesn't it?

"it is difficult to consider teachers in the same light as doctors and lawyers."

Yes, I'm SURE those doctors and lawyers all learned basic science and reading/writing skills as youngsters by osmosis.

No teachers. No hospitals, no bridges, no courts, no paramedics. Lots of the good old days however. I believe they were called the 'Dark Ages'.

"I suppose it is all just like those “meaningless” exams you refer to. As a parent these are our one remaining link to establish the accountability of the education system and how our kids measure up."

If you don't know how your kid is doing academically, the problem lies in your parenting, not the presence/absence of exams.

FWIW, life doesn't consist of big exams. They (exams) may provide a snapshot of someone's knowledge, but they aren't really a teaching tool. Do you want your kid taking tests, or learning?

"You can suck it up and go to work like the rest of us have had to, or you can complain and sulk and give all working people a bad name in the process."

Switek wins the 'when you point a finger, you've got three more pointing back at you award."

So much of your previous posts are sulking and whining on behalf of the HEU. Why don't YOU suck it up and find another job if YOU don't like it?

+You know, the same kind of political interference that resulted in the Fast Cats."

You know, the same kind of political interference that resulted in the RAV line.

Fixed it for ya. You're welcome.

I'd like to point out that if teachers were as incompetent as their critics would have us believe, how do you explain their ability to keep churning out graduates despite slashed budgets. They're doing more with less and some of you have nothing better to do but bash an entire profession on the basis of a few bad apples.

Meanwhile, your boy Gordo has broken laws, endangered lives, and gone back on his word more times than I skipped Geography class back in the day and the only time you take his member out of your figurative mouths is to sing his praises.

Are you really that brainwashed, Ron, Nemesis, et al, or just that stupid? I gotta go with the first option, because despite your inability to ever ask "and then what" you seem capable of writing and reading just like the rest of us. Give your heads a shake guys (I'm assuming gender, plse excuse me if I'm wrong). Nobody is against fiscal responsibility, but economic decisions based on ideology is dumb no matter who does it.

Stump says

That's not news Stump.
Rural School Districts, faced with declining budgets, do that all the time - when a teacher retires/leaves, they scout for the best of the
first-year (i.e. lowest-paid) teachers available. Just another reason behind holding that most teachers are overpaid?

Ron:

OMG = Oh My God
ROTFL = rolling on the floor laughing

but you knew that.

FO=Far Out? Must be. You're too much of a gentleman to stoop to cussin'.

In that vein... peace brother.

Uhh, Stump, that Switek is whining and sulking I have to agree and while he/she might be a member of HEU (I have my doubts on that ) she/he doesn't represent all of the union.Just one of 43,000.
While I sure wasn't happy to lose the 15%, I wasn't surprised, either. Between a rock and a hard place the union leadership did the best they could.
The job action was necessary in my opinion otherwise we would have just been the self sacrificial lamb but for the $150,000 it cost us I would have liked to have seen the General strike happen.
It would have been worth twice as much to watch Campbell and cronies sweat and twitch.
Maybe the union leadership/BCFed thought that it would have caused irrepairable "damage". Who knows? I don't.
Switek should remember that a union is a strong as the combined efforts of the membership. Don't like the direction? get involved. Or move on.
Have good day all...

Ron
The ship building and repair companies of BC have a world wide reputation of getting things done and have survived mostly without the major injections of money that the East Coast/Quebec yards have received. They were able to build the Spirit Class ferries despite the smaller yard size, they certainly could do it again.

Why build them here? These yards do very well at the ship repair business, which is their main bread and butter, and compete against the world. However they do need new-builds in order to invest in new infrastructure to stay current and competitive. If the government invest 400 million into a ferry built here, the government is likely to get 20-40% of that back in taxes. Also a shipyard supports a whole host of other secondary industries. Buying the ferry in Germany passes these benefits into the German economy. Also there may be a part issue. People might remember the icebreaker Henry Larson built in the Northshore. It blew a major component on sea trials and was tied to the dock for a year awaiting delivery from West Germany.

The fast ferries were a gamble, and should have been presented as such. The surveys of the ships all commented on how well they were built. All fast ferries suffer many of the same problems as ours did, most suffer more. The amount of debris and size of it in our waters is a significant problem for any waterjet, surface drive vessel. The major problem with the fast ferry program was the political meddling by Clark himself. When he tied his re-election to these vessels I knew he screwed up big time.

Further:
I have no doubt that the current operators of BC Ferries take their policy orders from Victoria and am convinced that the only reason they choose to buy overseas was to break or intimidate the unions.

Gee Colin

Why don't we do each other's laundry and I'll pay you $30./hr and you can pay me $30./hr and we'll all live happily ever after....you know, giving back 20-40% of that in taxes. Maybe we could even join the BCGEU or HEU as a new 2 person local.

This may come as a shock to you but there may be BETTER shipbuilders in other parts of the world!!!. If I hear one more time that the poor BC shipbuilders "....never even had a chance to bid" I'll lose my breakfast. THEY DIDN'T MAKE THE SHORTLIST TO MAKE A FULL BID SUBMISSION BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T AS QUALIFIED AS THE 3 SHORTLISTED FINALISTS THAT MADE THE LAST ROUND FOR CONSIDERATION. Think of the NHL playoffs!!! I guess you are in favour of what the American soft wood lumber lobby is doing to Canadian lumber producers, just protecting there local producers from evil outsiders.

Sparkyboy, you could write your Phd thesisis on that......You've just discovered Campbell's modus operandi!

Sparkyboy
Large scale contracting by governments are never done strictly on ability, or performance. It always involves politics. A classic example is the military helicopter contract. BC Ferries take their marching orders from Victoria, regardless of how much they like to say otherwise.

The German yards will be good because they have more opportunity to bid on projects. However you missed the central point of my argument, that is the new builds are critical in maintaining the competitiveness of our ship repair business here. Almost all shipyards in the world are supported by their respective governments in one form or another.

Just read in the N. Shore news that any shipbuilding contract in Canada will get 15% of the costs paid for by the Federal government, for 100 million ship that would be 15 million towards it. Not a bad way to save regional money.