Relax, in an announcment yesterday the BC Liberal Party announced 253 MILLION more in funding for K-12 education over the next 3 years. This inspite of the fact that there are 30,000 fewer students. How are you going to vote ?

Funny - I didn't hear from JIm or Erwin in the previous "Town duped into donating to Liberals" thread?

What happened? Gordo got your tongue?

Not for the guys who promised they would never sell the ferry system..or B.C. rail or...Ron, what they "announce" means nothing. What they DO is what we should examine... there well may be fewer pupils but costs, as we all know to our chagrin, rise. A can of paint costs more today than it did last year...schools need paint, they need repairs, they need..and need...and need...your guy's policies have hit low income parents so hard there are kids in those reduced numbers who are malnourished...and we all know a hungry kid is a kid with behaviour problems, attention problems...which burdens the teaching staff...and upsets the other kids so that even if they are among the lucky who had a nourishing breakfast they are distracted and that further burdens...jesus, Ron, these are our kids! Whatever the sins of the fathers and mothers the kids shouldn't bear the brunt. What we do not invest in them now we can invest later in prisons, psych wards, and policing costs.

I can't believe you, or anyone else, can be so mean spirited and punitive as to make your political points by reducing the care and services to the kids.

The cutbacks to library services alone are a nasty mean-spirited, and downright tacky move.

For some kids school is the only safe place in their lives. Those schools should be bright, cheerful, pleasant havens where a kid can get nourishing snacks free of charge when hungry. I'll pay double my taxes if the kids can get a slice of cheese and an apple, and I don't fathom, for the life of me how certain people can speak of "Christian values" while behaving in ways which are absolutely the opposite of what the gentle carpenter preached.

Politicians don't even blush when they hie themselves off to Whistler for retreats, for workshops, for study sessions, for soaks in the hot tub and for lovely banquets, all at tax payer expense. And they do this while there are kids who rummage in the dumpsters outside MacDonalds and Wendy's in the hope of finding some food.

They have announced 253 million over the next 3 years but they haven't PASSED the budget, it isn't "law" and you know what? If re-elected they won't enact it, they'll come up with another one and this announcement will wither on the vine, unblossomed and unenacted.

So go ahead, guess how I'm going to vote!

I just wish I could vote CCF instead of NDP! You may be sterile and without children in your extended family but I wasn't and I'm not and MY grandchildren and great grandchildren deserve far more than anything Gordon's Dry Gin is going to provide!

Back in your below ground lair, ogre. Begone!

Campbell is not a man of his word. Nothing that he says can be believed. If there are two different sources of information, the one that offers the least is most likely the truth.

We know what they will do based on what they did in the last four years. It is time to vote for the NDP and restore funding to the public school system.

The BC Liberals used the slogan "putting children first" and then did nothing to put children first. They have instead created overcrowed schools and allowed schools to close in many small towns that now have to send their children many miles to school.

more fear-mongering from a desperate bctf. nonsense.

to: Anne Cameron, so you are a communist ? That system doesn't work. Look at the suffering in Cuba and North Korea. Isn't it obvious to you that capatilism provides a good economy that allows us to pay for these genrous social programs ? I have 2 children and 3 grandchildren. My ealdest grandchild is due to go into grade one in September. My daughter is going to home school her. She gets only approximately $1,000.00 from the government for this and yet the government allows $7,000.00 per pupil to the School Board's. I am not happy with that, but it's worth any cost to avoid her getting brainwashed by the gay leftist teachings of BCTF teachers. I want choices. And I don't believe Ken Dryden's National Daycare scheme pays any attention to those parents who want a tax break to look after there own children. Obviously we see things very differently.

You are out of touch with what is going on around you, sirjohn eh. Telling the truth about Gordon Campbell is NOT fear mongering.

Look at the suffering in BC. This is becoming the worst province to live in. We are living in a neo-facist province. Everything for corporations and the rich and nothing for everyone else. It is no wonder that NDP polling is showing that they are leading in 50 ridings.

You already got the tax breaks both provincially and federally, Ron. Were you not paying attention? It is time to do something for the poor. Get off your lazy but and work if you want more money, Ron. Stop whining for more tax breaks.

Ron:

I'm assuming that you also supported Campbells cancellation of audio books for the blind?

Anne:

You are so right. Promises from Campbell mean nothing, action does. His credit is no good with the electorate. He is a liar, a puppet and a liability to even his own party. A megalomaniac and a convicted criminal. What a great leader!

Sugar, let me remind you that Gordon Campbell is not a convicted criminal. He was simply found guilty of a misdemeanor. I am the electorate. He has credit with me.
Sue Clarke; Oh the suuffering, you are fear mongering. The vast majority of BC citizens are doing quite fine, thank you. Those that are not doing well will never disappear in any system.

sue; still working on that grade 9 essay? your rants are laughable. 'worst place to live'?. is that why we lead the country in provincial migration. cuts to libraries? in my kid's school the library costs over $150k/year to run. one teacher at $70k/year, one full-time cupe worker at $47k/year and over $30k to run a library with a couple of thousand books and a computer lab. multiply that by the number of secondary schools in the province and it's no wonder the gov't made some cuts to library staff.

BAD Sirjohnna!

Your numbers are a total fabrication! You withdrew them from your ass. You are as big a lier as any BC Liberal.

Ger off your lazy ass and work for a living and then you will know what it is like! Stop counting your money and expecting the BC Liberals to give you more tax cuts!

Ron Erwin: Would you tell us where you got your education, please?

BC Mary; I got my education in Edmonton in the publis school system. One of the finest systems anywhere. There were no teachers union where I came from, and there were always well over 30 students in each of my classes. We were taught that self esteem had to be earned, not dished out like gruel. I moved to BC 27 years ago. I could see that under the NDP and Dave Barret you folks is BC needed all the help you could get. Aren't you glad I came to BC to spread Alberta wisdom to the masses ?
Try to come up with a logical argument Sue, Sugar and Mary. Emotional spin and name calling doesn't come across as very intelligent.

Mr. Erwin:

Crimes are broken down in two categories in the U.S: Felons and Misdemeanors. They are both crimes, they are just broken down in terms of severity.

Given the fact you're ignorant to this basic fact of law, I'm not surprised that the Gordon Campbell (convicted criminal) has good credit with you.

Ron, I'm amazed that you are so blinded by fact that you can't even admit a crime is a crime. I'd have much more respect for Fiberal lunatics if they can call a spade a spade. It's like you don't even acknowledge it is wrong.

Lastly, if you want to maintain your position on this, can you please explain how drunk driving is the only "non-crime" that warrants a criminal record? Please explain.

One more thing Ron:

You were educated without unionized teachers and still don't know the definition of a crime - You are a poster child for the BCTF! Well done.

Personally, I think you know it's a crime but have been snorting that Liberal pre-election pixie dust that masks the truth with fictional fantasy.

If Gordon Campbell was a criminal he would have a criminal record. If a person has a criminal record he can't run for office anywhere in Canada. Gordon Campbell is running for office, therefore he is not a criminal.
It's not what I think about drunk driving being a crime. It's what the US Justice System thinks is a criminal offence (felony) I am sure the terrorist at MADD are busy working on this. I do know the meaning of crime. It's a crime that you can't come up with a more intelligent argument.

If Gordon Campbell committed a crime (felony or misdemeanor, both are crimes), he is a criminal. It is a crime to drink and drive in Hawaii. Gordon Campbell got drunk, then drove. Gordon Campbell is a criminal. Pretty clear to me.

Ron:

To call the people at MADD terrorists is really indicative of not only your intelligence but your moral values. I wonder what you would think if one of your loved ones was injured or killed by a drunk driver. Perhaps that's what it will take for you to get your head out of the gutter. On a personal note, my sister sustained a broken femur and clavicle at the hands of a pissed driver - who's BAC was less than our illustrious leaders. She was in a wheelchair for too long a period and I helped with her son. You see Ron, the people at MADD aren't terrorists. They are people who's lives have been devastated and feel passionate about their cause. I am not a member but I support them 100%.

So far you have said that Campbell didn't commit a crime and MADD are a bunch of terrorists.

I feel sorry for you Ron. Good luck.

I think what Ron is saying is you're not a criminal if your crimes are committed outside Canada. So if you go to Thailand or the Philipines to procure the services of children, you're not a criminal because it happened outside Canada. Same with drunk driving in Maui.

Callng MADD terrorists? Mothers who lost a family member due to a drunk driver are terrorists? Obviously from here on Ron has nothing to say that is worth listening to.

I urge all of the above writers to visit the web site frontpagemagazine.com and read about the Students Bill of Rights.

I think what Ron is saying is...

Funny, it's usually the right accusing the left of moral relativism.

Ron Erwin, can you tell my why you posted this garbage earlier today?

"Anne Cameron, so you are a communist ? That system doesn't work. Look at the suffering in Cuba and North Korea."

I read her post and there was nothing in it that I could find that implied any kind of Marxist or communist ideology. So what's the reason for this non-question, besides the fact that you're an ingorant ex-Albertan who thinks the whole world is still trapped in the McCarthy era just because you are.

You know Bud, it's the classic debating technique, attack the messenger...

"To call the people at MADD terrorists is really indicative of not only your intelligence but your moral values."

We have the morally superior trump card coming out. No good argument from the left is complete without the moral or ethical argument.

"Ger off your lazy ass and work for a living and then you will know what it is like! Stop counting your money and expecting the BC Liberals to give you more tax cuts!"

I would say get off your lazy ass and stop expecting more of my money. Why do you have a right to my money that I worked hard for?

"Get off your lazy but and work if you want more money, Ron. Stop whining for more tax breaks."

But the more you make the more you will scream and holler for. After all being financially successful is becoming a crime in Canada.

Why do you feel it's your right to take someone’s income. Donate more of your money if higher taxes are so good.

Budd; It was regarding her desire to be able to vote for the CCF.

MADD terrorists. Yeah right.

Let me tell you about my personal experience with drunk drivers. I recently lost a female friend of mine I've known literally since she was a baby. The brother of my sister's best friend was killed. The son of my father's friend suffered serious brain damage and now has to go through life with an IQ in the high 70's. That's what drunk driving means to me.

I get so sick of people like Ron who want to throw Svend Robinson in jail for ten years for pocketing a trinket for three days, at the same time wanting to give Gordon Campbell a pass saying "it was nothing serious". First off, Campbell wasn't just drunk, he was VERY drunk according to the breathalyzers and the arresting officer's testimony. Getting behind the wheel of a car in that condition isn't just irresponsible; it's just short of attempted murder. Svend at least had the decency to accept responsibility for what he did.

And as for this "leftist gay" agenda of the BCTF? Get real. For people like Ron, anything which doesn't suit their vision is a "leftist gay agenda". I shudder to think at what kind of an education your granddaughter is going to receive. Probably "graduate" thinking the universe is 6000 years old and Nixon was framed.

Equating the CCF with North Korea is more utter garbage.

So JIm, are Mothers Against Drunk Driving a group of terrorists in your mind too?

sue; the figures are accurate. period. if you don't believe me ask the principal of your local high school what his budget for the library is. school libraries are far too costly as they are being run now. this is the age of technology and most kids use the internet to do their research. this issue is about one thing only: the bctf's desperate attempt to save teacher's jobs, even if they are obsolete.
good luck on your socials 9 essay, it's coming along nicely, but you may want to try working on your spelling, grammar and logic a bit.

SMitchell; I am sorry about your friend.

My memory of the Gordon Campbell drunk driving charge is as follows.

1. He was charged with drunk driving.

2. He said he would take full responsibility.

3. He pleaded "no contest" which is short of pleading "guilty" but does not give him a criminal record in the U.S. system but is far short of fessing up.

He found a loophole and used it, the press forgave him as they forgave Ralph Klein for his drunken escapade. Now imagine what the press would have done if it had been Lorne Calvert(Sask. NDP premier) or Carol James who had been drinking and driving.

A question for you all out there will Campbell still be able to cross the border with this "conviction" when he's no longer in political office.Canadains with a criminal record aren't allowed to cross border without at least a waivor. As I understand it there is a certain amount of immunity to this for policitians. If he isn't then it's a criminal conviction is it not?

He can cross, its only a misdemeanour in Hawaii.

I doubt he's one of those that think people who commit crimes overseas where what they do is legal should be arrested on their return.

The difference with Klein is that he didn't commit a crime. He got hammered and mouthed off at some homeless people. I thought it was pretty funny actuallly. There is no law against getting drunk. A poor decision mind you but nothing to get too excited about. Plus, being aware of his position of power he knew two things:

1) He can be Premier for eternity if he wanted to.

2) Getting plastered and getting behind the wheel is against the law. He had a driver. That's what people with sound judgment do when before they drive.

You can say anything you want in defence of Campbell, but I choose to vote for someone who didn't spend time in jail during their mandate.

Mel - The Fiberals in BC in their mind are above the law. The leader breaks the law, it's ok. Assistants to politicans are suspected of drug dealing, money laundering and influence peddling - ahh big deal. It's just a billion dollar asset and it will be hush hush until after the election. In cases where they find a law annoying, they get their legislative puppets to create new laws to advance their ideological agenda. Across the rockies here, it's quite similar to Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe. The only difference is that Mugabe doesn't have the financial backing to air hours of commercials with eagles soaring over trees, kids skipping in the mountains, skiers whooshing down snow runs - giving everyone the hope that they can retire fly fishing in the river before going home to their West Vancouver estates. Perhaps Mugabe does have the backing to do it, he's just smart enough to know that everyone isn't a fool.

Thanks for filling in the insults while I was away mowing my lawn Sir John.

I was particularly amused by the top-notch bit, "sue; nice job on the grade 9 socials essay." and pleasantly surprised with the recent follow-up - "good luck on your socials 9 essay, it's coming along nicely, but you may want to try working on your spelling, grammar and logic a bit".

Might I suggest one small correction Sir John? - shouldn't it have read "grade 9 social studies essay"? (Unless of course sue is writing an essay on "socials")

Please excuse my grade 6 punctuation.

Ron,

Your flagrant attitude and slip-shod reasoning creeps me out. It's the same attitude that ensures that in this election your cohorts won't garner a single vote from my family and myself.

Sad...

Libraries? Irrespective of individual opinions the institution is going the way of the dodo bird. Try checking out where your kids are getting their info today. Mine are getting their news from the 'net. They love books (thanks for small blessings) and often borrow mine or buy their literary preferences from the bookshop. But despite being raised in a culture (fostered by my wife and I) that loves books, they don't frequent libraries any more. That's reality, and the BCTF is following the dodo into extinction if they think otherwise.

Canada's greatest author, Robertson Davies, often railed against libraries, primarily because (I suspect) authors can't survive on the royalties when readers don't buy books, and instead borrow them. There is an ongoing battle between publishers/authors and public institutions such as libraries and schools on this issue. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the age of computers and the 'net.

Well I couldnt help but comment on some of the ignorance I read.

To misquote an old quote... If you think education is expensive, check the price of ignorance.

Furthermore, since some of you think you know so much about our education system I ask you to answer this...when was the last time an elected gov't official (be it school board or MLA) lobbied for smaller classes unlike Sirjohna who went to school with 30 or 40 others in the same room (and by reading his posts, proves that larger classes provide students with less education)

And whether Gordon Campbell is a criminal or not is not the point IMHO. It's that he willingly and knowingly did an act of immorality which is a crime in most parts of the world. Morals do not take holidays, if it is legal to have sex with underage prostitutes in some country like Thailand, does that make it ok? I dont think so, even if someone is on "holidays" and is not acting as a MLA or a premier.

Jean Binette writes:

Everything above is an exact copy of the same old rhetoric we have all heard on the Maui experience from day one.

The drinking and driving episode is not at issue, it's what happened afterwards that is ...

what happened after that is the issue?

That's nonsensical my friend.

Goodnight.

great propoganda from the tyee. they're obviously full bore into the election campaign now. a new liberal-bashing story every day, most of them inaccurate. the reality is that the ndp has been criticizing liberal education policies for 4 years but won't change a thing besides hiring 1500 new teachers that aren't needed in the system b/c there are now fewer students in the seats. that's what the bctf wins by commiting $5 million to fighting the gov't. sounds like another kit krieger/glen clark deal being cut in the back room.

When fortune empties her chamberpot on your head, smile - and say 'we are going to have a summer shower'." Sir John A. Macdonald, circa 1875

there is a short list of politicians who are bigger assholes than gordo. king ralph of alberta heads that list.

I'm sure there's a point there - (somewhere)

Good grief! Talk about fun without numbers!

It doesn't need more than Grade 8 math and research skills to cut through all this BS and figure out the not-so--simple facts:

1) BC Liberals froze education funding in 2002 while legislating a three-year incremental salary increase for teachers and raising other costs (MSP premiums, fuel taxes, accounting requirements, etc.):

Cost increases + frozen budget = Deficit

2) Meanwhile, enrolment declined, but not as much as costs rose:

Deficit - cost cuts due to enrolment = De factor service cuts

3) Every school has fixed overheads, so costs do not decrease in direct proportion to enrolment numbers. Thus the savings from enrolment declines as not as much as might be expected.

4) The new "simplified" funding formula introduced in 2002 by Christy Clark means most of the budget is now based on enrolment, so this aggravates the problem for districts with declining enrolment (that's why rural schools with declining numbers were hit hardest while Surrey got off relatively lightly)

Stats Canada showed the total number of "educators" (classroom teachers, aides, library staff, special ed teachers, etc.) per student declined in BC after 2001, while that ratio was rising everywhere else in Canada.
(http://www.statcan.ca/cgi-bin/downpub/listpub.cgi?catno=81-595-MIE2004022 See Table 6 on Page 20)

5.) With elections coming, the BC Liberals have been shovelling money back at the school system. Vancouver, for example was finally able to restore some services for the year ahead. However, what's restored is still a fraction of what was lost:

De factor cuts - new dollars = Net deficit

6.) The BC Liberals (and I believe the NDP) promise modest increases in the year ahead. However, staff contracts are up for renewal, fuel costs are through the roof and cost of living in general is going up. If the increases don't keep pace with costs, there will be more cuts.

Net deficit + new costs = More deficits

7. If you don't know what to believe, A) Join your PAC or School Planning Council and demand to see the budget numbers for yourself. B) Ignore the hysterics and the politicos with their simplistic nonsense. C) Don't trust any single source of information--read all sides as I have. D) And then take out the calculator and do the math.

...annoying typos. I meant "de facto" cuts.

Instructional moment today in House of Commons ... after N.D.P.'s Jack Layton bargained hard, hard, hard to get the current Prime Minister to include in the current budget: affordable housing ($1.6 Billion), tuition reduction and better training through E.I. ($1.5 Billion), environmental issues to reduce pollution ($900 Million), foreign aid ($500 Million) and $100 Million for pension protection fund for workers. It wouldn't have happened without the N.D.P.

It won't create a deficit because, as Mr Martin kept saying, there's a healthy surplus in hand. Oh. And Mr Layton insisted that the tax cuts for big corporations be postponed. <>

There are different ways of winning. Lefties have always known this. Be proud.

How very repetitive of you. Do you have anything NEW to add?

regards

The man is a liar, a bully, and yes, Ron, he IS a criminal. What else do we need to know?

The only person who makes a lot of sense to me on this is "NAME".

After scanning through the general hubris of name calling (from both sides) an analysis like NAME's is refreshing.

Both sides know that it is easier to motivate people with emotion (thus "liar", "cheat", and "immoral" get tossed about by both sides) than with logic.

Like NAME, I've spent considerable time checking and double checking information. I agree with NAME's conclusions.

What was the crime, (offence) of course!

What was the crime? - (offence), of course!

I don't get how anyone can argue against libraries. I understand the issue with royalties and authors, but I think people forget that not every household owns a computer, and not every parent can afford to buy the books their kids want. Furthermore, in my experience, a library is a better place to do research than the net. It's much easier to get to the source of information. True, the net can be a great place for info, but you can spend loads of time wadding through crap and have difficulty finding where that info came from.

Despite my dislike for Campbell, he does a good job of pushing the issue of literacy and closing, or under-funding libraries doesn't seem to jibe with that cause.

ooops, I meant "jive".

If anyone knows a political cartoonist, please give them the idea of Paul Martin and Jack Layton portrayed as two same sex partners at the alter getting married bi Svend Robinson. Obviously Bill C38 is the real reason the deal was struck. God help us.

Clearly Ron doesn't like Gay's . Imagine Stephen Harper in flowing god-like robes. (Layton is definitely out to lunch if he thinks he's doing what all Canadians want)

Hey gordo's shovelling out more cash again!!
today he's promising a public sector wage increase!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow he must be gettin' scared now when he starts to throw money at the very people he tried to f@#k!!! How stupid he must think us to regard us with such utter contempt.
I think he's getting desperate.

Ya, Ron, what's with your obsession with homosexuals? Think about it alot?

Verso: jibe was right word in that context.

And don't misunderstand me, I love libraries and bookshops — it's just that there is a seachange going on in our computer age, especially among the younger generations, and no one has figured out where it will take us.

Agreed, kurt, about the sea-change. Maybe libraries can aid us in teaching students how to properly research and the importance of knowing their sources. In other words, prepare them for the glut of unsourced and decontextualized information out there on the web.

What I'm trying to ask, I guess, is do we let libraries go the way of the dodo, or do we try to properly fund them and make them relevant to kids lives?

of course libraries are still important, but to the tune of over $150k per high school? most of them are used as places for kids to do their homework, and we're paying teachers $70k/year to babysit them, plus a full-time cupe employee. very sweet for the unions. of course carole james will hire more. why not? it's not her money.

Sirjohna, The librarys aren't just a place to do homework, they're a major tool in DOING homework. Unless you want to go the US route and stock your libraries with books written before man walked on the moon, first-class educations are going to require first-class libraries.

Think about the costs involved in running a good library - at least one full-time employee, scores of new books arriving every year (including textbooks at 70-100 bucks a pop), computers, software upgrades and licenses.

But the final fact is, education doesn't cost money, it MAKES money. Time and time again it has been shown that public education is the best investment you can make. John Adams, one of the fathers of modern democracy, went so far as to say that democracy COULDN'T work without public education - and he was right.

Strange how the right seems to view education as it's enemy. Every Republican administration, from Nixon to Reagan to Bush, has attacked the US education system, both K-12 and post-secondary. Why is this? Do they fear that an educated public could see through their lies?

YOO-HOO! Could you at least keep it in the country of origin?

Regards
The Punisher

Thanks to Noel Herron for his great work advocating for children in Vancouver. He's one of the people that is responsible for advocating for inner-city schools in order to get hot lunches for otherwise malnourished and hungry kids.

Name's statistics are correct. Most alarmingly, since 2001, we have lost 14% of the teachers in Vancouver and only about 2% of the students. Special Needs teachers, music teachers, Physical Education teachers, Librarians, and Speech and Language Pathologists are much more scarce in Vancouver. It is not fear mongering, but people have to determine what kind of public education system they want. No one can claim that there has been an improvement since the BC Liberals took power.

I think we all know what Ron Erwin's comments about homosexuals is about. We can now all ignore any future commentary from to this misguided homophobic man.

Who are all these high school teacher/librarians that make $70,000? I'm a teacher, I don't make anywhere near that amount and none of my department colleagues do either.
CUPE library staff do not make $47,000 per year. Actually, I have never seen a high school library with a CUPE support worker. Where are these CUPE library workers employed??

ruby; 12 years maximum salary = around $63,000
master's degree = $6000
department head = $2500
all of these numbers depend on the particular district. benefits are worth another 15 - 20k.
my children's high school has a full time cupe employee AND another teacher filling a block at lunchtime when the teacher/librarian is at lunch.

I would remind all the posters proclaiming the imminent demise of libraries and their lack of importance vis a vis the internet that in many cases only material now in the public domain is posted on the internet. (I know Google has plans to make a precis available of more up to date material, but still many journals and new books are not and cannot be posted on the internet. It would be infringement of copyright.)

Material generally enters the public domain fifty years after publishing (music) or the death of the author, (so, for example, one can obtain fifty year old jazz recordings cleaned up by computer) although the US Congress and Senate have recently enacted legislation adding another (correct me if I'm wrong) twenty years, with no guarantee that Walt Disney will not receive another extension when the next deadline for protecting Mickey and Donald approaches.

Contrary to the flat earth society members, there has been much progress in the last fifty years, John 3 16 is NOT all we need to know, and work based on public domain or (in my opinion even worse) unverified, unsupported, unedited, and in many cases irrelevant material is less than useless, it is an actual liability.

For those trumpeting the continued superiority of Alberta, I would ask the obvious questions: "If it is so good in Alberta, why are all these sour-faced supporters of Premiers Manning, Lougheed, and Klein taking up residence in B.C.? Did anyone here ask to be liberated by these northern Bushites?"

To Rip, I share your concern about the provenance of material available on the 'net but then I (and judging by posts by others on tyee site) am but heartbeats away from receiving a pension. Could we be pending irrelevance?

When my son was young the best personal computers were Commodore 64s. He's now 30 and his microbiology research work is published on the net, including his Ph.D (remember that the net was founded by universities so as to enable sharing of research work). He's been buying his books on Amazon for years. Etc.

Same with my 21 year old daughter. Doesn't read papers, reads the net: Says she likes to follow sites like Amnesty Int., Slate, Salon (no, not tyee: "irrelevant") and then go on the net to discuss events and issues with friends for an hour or more. Reads the trendy books and classics (sheet music is her fave highbrow indulgence), but usually buys them electronically.

This is a huge transformation, in one generation. Try to imagine the next one.

And try to imagine when they have children and these youngsters enter the school system. By that time unimaginable change will have taken place -- and children may well be more computer literate, and even discerning, than their teachers. But one thing for sure, my children will have very strong reactions if the teachers of their children try to tell them what they should and shouldn't read on the net.

sirjohna I'm well aware of teacher's salaries but I still don't know of a single teacher/librarian earning $70,000.
And whats wrong with paying well educated people good salaries? If you want qualified, well educated staff you must pay for it or they leave for other employers.
Considering the long hours I put in at my teaching job I know we are getting a bargain for our tax dollars.

i guess what you're saying is the librarian in my children's secondary is the only one in the province making $70k/ year. (actually it's 71k, to be more exact). as far as paying teachers what they're worth, i think they should make more, but that's not the topic ruby, it's school libraries, which i'm claiming should cost about half of what they do now.

You will find that many schools have no librarians at all. They may have a teacher in a couple of afternoons a week. There is no money for libraries for many schools, and that is the point.

Underfunding of schools is chronic, and the Liberals are on the same path.

As far as internet in the future...who knows. Germany has just introduced a tax on all users. How much will the information highway cost us in ten years from now? It most certainly won't be free.

sirjohna, what a condescending attitude you have.
I'm well aware of the topic here but if you don't want to discuss salaries then don't bring up the topic. Personally I don't think we can discuss school library funding or school funding at all without salaries coming into the mix.

sirjohna: Do you know what the Librarian in the school does? Do you really think that all the Librarian does is shelve books? Give me a description of what you think they do. I bet you don't know the half of it.

Why do neo-cons hate teachers so much?

mel; how ignorant to assume that all teachers are lefty sheep herding towards the bctf agm every spring, bleating in the wind of their so-called leader's malodorous gas. do you really believe that non-lefties hate teachers? in that case i'd have to hate my wife and my brother-in-law, who are both intelligent and thoughtful people who can make their own decisions about politics and the human condition. thousands of teachers in this province will be voting liberal on may 17th and believe that the bctf is an antiquated old gang of naive socialists who are quite willing to take teachers and children as hostage in their quest to create their own particularly ridiculous vision of the world. such a shame that they're afraid to say so for fear of disciplinary action by the bctf executive, who couldn't care less about the students in the classroom, hence their propensity to use it as a political football at their earliest convenience.

typical attitude of a citizen who thinks of the education system as a babysitting service.

m4; have you checked out what's going on in public elementary schools lately? a babysitting service is exactly what it is.

People please...sirjohna is a troll looking for fights. I do work in a public school and I DO see what is happening in the system. You may feel it is a babysitting service (as most tight wad right wing Archie Bunker types do), and I can tell you without a doubt sir that if it were a babysitting service, why (until recently) does Canada, more specifically BC come second in the world to Finland in education? Some babysitters huh?

That being said...If you were to pay a babysitters wage to a teacher lets do the math now shall we?

$5 per hour is the standard rate
22 children per hour (elementary school, 28 - 30 in a high school)
NOTE for the benefit of the right wing neo con
5 hours of pupil time per day
hmmm...lets see...
5 times 22= 110 right? 5 times 30= 150
still with me? raise your hand sirjohna if I am going too fast okay?
110 time 5= anyone? anyone? 550

now the school act (a legal binding document) states that the school must be in session 196 days per year (less in the USA by the way)

which equals sirjohna... $107,000 per year
so $72,000 doesnt sound so bad after all huh...

no wonder everyone thinks teachers are a bunch of crybabies. besides gpm, i'm already on record as saying i think they should make more money, at least the good ones should. the problem with the system is that there are so many crap-assed bad ones out there who are protected by their union. principals have to spend so much time on protocol to get rid of a lardass that it's not worth the trouble. if you don't already know this, and you are a teacher, then you've been blinded by the dark my friend.

ya, right, in our dreams, this was prior to Gordo and his stripping of rights. Since he has been elected, class size limits have gone out the window. Any parents in here? How would you like your child to be in a class with... yep 35 other students? Imagine the attention he/she would get. Go Liberals pbbbfftt.... Not only are they bending me over backwards, but now they are doing the same thing to the innocent children also.

actually m4, the average class size has gone down by one student provincially. it's at 30, which means that for every class that has 35, another has 25, but you know the truth is that very few have 35 don't you. you prefer to twist the facts so they become more blather. i know plenty of people in the education system m4, and my own children are in secondary school. the class average in their classes, for example, is 26. you are blurting so much rhetoric, but what else should i expect?

Well you can be happy with whatever figures you like there fella. The fact that can't be overlooked is that class sizes are higher now than they have been in a long while, and guess who we have to thank for that? Yep those liberal people.

I suppose that it's not a huge issue that some children are expected to get up 90 minutes earlier because they have to take a bus to a school in a different community because of cuts causing schools in their own community to close down?

the numbers are real m4. do you understand what an average is. i know of an elementary school in the lower mainland with 94 students in it. one full time principal at $90k/year, cupe staff, etc., and there's another school 3 blocks away. that make any sense to you pal? if so, i'd love to know the location of your money trees?

I like it when people take what i say and twist it to try and avoid the facts. I was searching through my posts and I am having difficulty finding the part where I mentioned that the class average has increased? Please allow me to clarify in simplistic terms that you may be able to comprehend. My statement was that in some schools there are classes that have more than 35 students in them. This is in direct result of the class size limits being striken from the agreement thus leaving these decisions up to administrators. It's not the class averages that I'm concerned about, it's the 34 or 35 other students that will crowded in the same classroom with my kid and with one teacher.

As for why they would have two schools so close to one another, I have no idea on the specifics. Maybe one is a private school, maybe one is an elementary and the other a primary, or junior secondary, or whatever. Maybe the demographics of the region call for two distinct schools in that area. Perhaps one of the schools offer courses the other doesn't. Again, my comment was in reference to the schools that have been closed in the northwest forcing some students to ride a bus for more than an hour to get to another school because the school in their community was closed.

On a side note, should the fliberals win the next election, a good bet would be that of those schools you mentioned above will be closed down due to an increase in the number of school boards that run into money problems.

No, Ron, I am not a communist. And I don't have to go to Cuba or North Korea to see suffering...have you taken a good look around lately? Capitolism is spreading suffering across the entire globe.

Sometimes you come very close to almost making a point but then you open your anus and... the point gets lost in the flood of crud...

If it's so wonderful in Albertay, why are you here? They won't let you back?

CCF was not communist. You're probably thinking of the CPP (communist party of canada). It's little confusions like that which make me wonder if you went to school in a long bus or a short bunny bus...

m4; you need to read more m4. several school districts are in surplus. coquitlam, for example, is in the process of trying to figure out how to spend an extra $5.6 million for next year, which is the only surplus they've had in recent memory. that's what the liberals have done for education by giving the trustees the ability to make the local decisions. all the rest of the rhetoric about cuts is truly deception and lies pumped out by the bctf.

not true in a couple ways sirjohna...

Averages are funny things...if you have three people, one has $0 the second has $0 and the third has 1 million dollars, does that mean the average $ amount per person is $333,333? you bet it does. Thats how the Gordo and his supports believe the schools work.

Lets not forget that school averages include concillors, librarians, special needs teachers (aka non enrolling teachers) in the average mix. Using our ave formula again...0 students enrolled for a concillor (they have other issues) for seven blocks, 35 students in a wood shop class for 7 blocks equals 17.5 students per block. Thats how Gordo and sirjohna can claim classroom sizes have reduced on average.

As far a Coquitlam goes...they recieved some monies based on "one time" grants not through sound fiscal management. I work in the tri cities and I KNOW what our school board has had to do based on Liberal cutbacks, including cut 5 million from the budget in 2002 and 1 million more in 2003, so this extra money is simply catch up cash while Gordo is running for premier.

gpm; your numbers are outrageous, as is your logic.

I guess if sirjohna's kids go to a school with a librarian who makes $70,000 per year, while other schools don't have a librarian at all, it must mean that his kids' school is in an affluent area that voted Liberal and gets its perks with tax-payers' money at the expense of less privileged school districts. So what the hell is he complaining about?

I must appologize sirjohna..I didnt realize you were a teacher. You must accept my apology as my logic is only based on what I SEE on a daily basis. Where do you teach? What grade? How are you dealing with your larger classes with no provisions for children with special needs? I'd also like to know please how you dealt with the 7 new ESL students dropped off into your class added to your already capacity class? (one can only put so much water into a glass correct?)Please kind and knowledgeable sage...pass us your wisdom. The way you speak of the school system you have it all figured out, much like that taxi cab driver I met the other day. I cant figure out why such men of vast intellect are not running this province or at least the school boards.

As for my logic...I hate to confuse you with the facts sir, I'll stick to fabrications, it seems to be the only thing you believe

Don't you listen to sirj though? This can't be happening, because the liberals have told us that the average class size is lower now. blather blather blather

gpm; teacher? sorry pal, engineer.
m4v; glad to see you finally figured it all out. you're not as stupid as you sound.

That's calling the kettle black. Actually I was being sarcastic, but I wouldn't expect you to catch that.