you're absolutely right fear-mongering-mel from calgary. we should leave everything exactly the same b/c the country is running as efficiently as a well-oiled machine. can't figure out why you'd want to live in such an oppressive and horrible province anyway, those nasty conservatives have wreaked havoc over the years. what's a good lefty to do?

No one doubts that Harper is a right winger. But at some point in time one has to ask which takes priority, policy preferences or standards of conduct.

Would you hire a person for your company, or non-profit organization, whose espoused beliefs you admired, but whom you knew was in fact completely untrustworthy and could imperil your organization's survival given enough time and enough opportunities to divert funds? I would suggest not. Better to hire someone with some strange, even disagreeable ideas, who at least is honest and is not likely to embezzle the entire enterprise into the ground.

For myself personally, there is no great problem here since I am an NDP supporter in any case. But I am revolted by pathetic attempts to rationalize another vote for the Liberals on the grounds that Harper or his party are somehow intolerable. To suggest that the Conservative are, on balance, more distasteful than the Liberals is repugnant, unless one is prepared to state explicitly that stealing a few hundreds of millions doesn't really matter, the Government treasury is so large it really doesn't matter.

The lions cage door has been opened and the feeding frenzy has begun. Harper and his supporters have been power hungry a long time, and are busy ripping up all Liberals, having a taste for those who support Martin.

Their behaviour lately makes me sick.

I agree with Budd, except for the part about the NDP. Martin's liberals have been hiding behind their fear mongering of the only viable alternative (the Conservatives)for too long. It worked on me in the last election, but not this time.

I agree that the social agenda that Harper may be hiding is not appealing on many fronts, but on others it makes perfect sense.

The article talks about the Canada Health Act and immigration policies as though these are sacred ground to Canadians. Why should they be if there is a way to potentially do things better? Why can't these areas at least be explored? Both of these items need serious revamping in order to work properly for all Canadians.

The theivery that has been demonstrated within the Federal Liberal party cannot be rewarded with my vote. The apathy to stay with the status quo for fear of some other "evil" can only go on for so long. We need change in the Federal Government. If it were not for the NDP's potential devastating impact on the economy and finances of the country they would be an option. Unfortunately all we have is the Conservative Party to try to bring some sort of order back to the table.

budd is right, the number 1 priority has to be kicking the liberals out. this thievery around the sponsorship scandal cannot go unpunished. i'd bet this is only the tip of the iceberg and i'm certain the privatization of the cnr is dirtier than the privatization of bc rail.

"what's a good lefty to do?"

I would say vote for an alternative.

So no one cares that the Conservatives have "Been on the take" according to Stevie Cameron? or that Mulroney accepted armloads of cash from a certain german businessman?

All well and good to demand the Liberals be brought down based on what the previous prime minister reigned over but I fail to see why we should happily replace them with a bunch we already know have demonstrated less than stellar ethics in the past. Short-term memory is not a solution.

And regardles of ethics, policies matter. If they didn't we would elect a bunch of nuns to run the government. Because I was more upset by the dismantling of FIRA than I was when I found out about Mulroney's personal wealth generation.

Would a NDP federal government be good for Canada? I know many of you are hardcore NDP supporters, but I feel that the NDP would send our country into a tailspin that we would never recover from. It's one thing to be a Labour party, such as in Britain, where you can champion labour, business and social responsibility. But the federal NDP as we see it now would essentially eradicate business out of Canada and at the same time cut off all foreign trade. To me that is incomprehensible, after all we need some way of paying for this utopian socialist dream. I believe Jack Layton is as phony and insincere as any politician out their today and I shudder to think of what he would do to this country. He prefers to grandstand every issue rather than find plausible workable solutions. Do you as NDP supporters feel he is the right person to run this country, or would you be more likely to support the Paul Martin and the Liberals. The Liberals are thieves, but they have done a fairly good job of running our country. Considering Cretien is now gone it just may be enough to save them. Also, Cretien should be charged.

No greater threat than an outright military invasion by the imperialist usa has faced our nation than a coup d'etat executed by the fascist conservative party and their corporate media co-conspirators.
Why would any sane and reasonable person embrace the extremist, destructive, devisive and amoral policies advocated by harper and his american corporate republican puppet-masters?
The very essence of what Canada is, the very things that still make us a nation to be proud of even with our myriad of problems is now at stake.
Harper and his soulless, traitorous cohorts must not be allowed to pervert our nations proud identity. They must be defeated at all costs.

Why would the NDP cut off foreign trade? I assume you mean the anti-NAFTA stance? All but 3 countries in the world trade without belonging to NAFTA. Fair trade is fine as they say.

Business is fine too, we just don't like it running the country. People, not corporations, should come first. A country's strength lies in its people, not its business community.

How you feel about Layton is actually how I see Campbell. Interesting.

I'm not sure if Layton is the guy, I'd prefer to see Blaikie and Broadbent there myself. If the NDP won I know it would be one of them as finance minister.

And I agree Chretien should be charged.

you're right frank, he should be charged, but chretien and martin will be protected at all costs. bringing them down will bring the party down, and the liberals will simply not let that happen.

In order to spare many high paying domestic jobs you would have to cut off foreign trade as consumer are more likely to by the comparable product that’s at the lowest price. They may not stop trade all together, but there would be a dramatic reduction in trade, and in turn rapidly rising prices on consumer products. It kind of like the I hate WalMart people who complain about Chinese manufacturing and how wal-marts are non-union then go to walmart to get the lowest prices. You can't have it all.

Business pays for the utopian dream. If you raise corporate taxes on business eventually they will leave for a more competitive environment. Layton wants higher corporate taxes. You can already hear business leaving Canada. Now who is going to pay for influx of social programs?

I just see a lack of sustain ability within the NDP.

JIm-BOb claims that "Business pays for the utopian dream. If you raise corporate taxes on business eventually they will leave for a more competitive environment. Layton wants higher corporate taxes. You can already hear business leaving Canada. Now who is going to pay for influx of social programs?

I just see a lack of sustain ability within the NDP."

As I understand it JIm-BOb, Layton has told the Liberals that what he wants is for them to delay, or cancel a reduction in corporate income tax that they have planned to introduce with Budget 2005. So Layton isn't asking for an increase in corporate tax rates, just that they not be further reduced.

Second, as you well know, personal income taxes raise a great deal more than corporate income taxes, so to say that business is financing the welfare state is, as you know, the exact opposite of the truth.

Finally, you ask who is going to pay for the "influx of social programs". The only new social program that anyone has recommended in recent years is a child care program. So what is the rest of this "influx" you are warning us about? Has someone recommended a special social benefit for business executives whose alcohol and drug habits cost them their careers? How much would a program like that cost, JIm-BOb, assuming a 55% income replacement rate?

Steven Harper isn't scary, he is a reasonable man with reasonable ideas. Conservative values are " smaller government, self reliance, low taxes, accountability, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, Provincial rights and honesty. What's scary about that ?

Actually Jim, I do hate Wal-Mart and I don't buy there. And yes there is a cost to keeping jobs domestic but I think that's balanced by the fact that a strong domestic economy can buy more of those goods which also serves to lower prices.

Doesn't matter if some business leaves. They're free to. Business will cater to the market. If the people here make enough to buy their product they will come. No smart businessman would ever turn his back on a market.

However, if you give them free rein they will seek to maximize profits by moving production to where the lowest wages can be paid while retaining the access to the markets they need. Thus "free-trade" agreements.

An economy that is "open for business" by having very low taxes and offshoring jobs will not be able to have good social programs because the tax base will wither as people lose good jobs.

Smaller government and lower taxes and self-reliance? Means people left to survive as best they can with no help from government.

Freedom of religion and freedom of speech? What parties are against these?

Accountability? For whom? Show me an example of when they went after one of their own. I know Mulroney somehow escaped their clutches.

Increased power to the provinces? Like Meech Lake? Provinces free to act as countries perhaps? All we will share is what? A small military?

I hear the NDP is pro-moms and apple pie. What's scary about that?

First off Budd, Jack Layton will raise corporate tax rates as soon as he got in to power, if ever. To pay for social programs you need to get the money from somewhere and it's bad optics to raise personal income taxes. Raising corporate taxes is a NDP trademark.

Your right personal income taxes do raise more money, I think, than corporate taxes. How do individuals generate income Budd? I'll let you answer that one.

Budd, are you saying that the NDP won't spend more on social programs. Then why vote for them if your "progressive"?

"No smart businessman would ever turn his back on a market."

True, but no smart business man would stay in Canada once uncompetitive. If the market becomes unprofitable, then business walks away. There is no point being in business if you lose money year after year, unless your bombardier. They will sell the product here but their offices will be located internationally. Or you could force them to stay in Canada by making import tariffs restrictive. There by cutting off trade, back to my original point.

Jim, business goes where the market is. If people in Canada are making $20 an hour they'll be here flogging their product. Not hanging around in some low-wage, low-tax cess pool. Oh, if you let them they're happy to make the product in the cess pool and ship it to Canada under liberalized trade rules but that's not how our economy was built. It was built on doing things here, employing our own. Historically it was done with tariffs to keep out cheap foreign imports.

That's how we got the huge car manufacturing sector in Ontario, it wasn't by allowing Ford and GM to ship us their cars from Michigan.

Harper sounds more like a BQ member than a federalist although BQ members tend more toward left-centre than right of right-centre. The contempt for Canadian values and tradition is the same in both cases.

It was very interesting to me that within a few days of Harper's elevation to the leadership of the new Conservative Party the entire archive of his speeches and papers was removed from the National Citizen's Coalition website. If any of his opponents have them stored anywhere for present reference they've managed to keep it very quiet as none of them were used in the last election either.

Canadians will have a very rude awakening under a Harper led majority government. Many of the old Progressive-Conservative members of that government would have a rude awakening too, lulled as they have been into thinking Harper's changed his lifetime's held philosophies.

Fortunately it would be a one term government.

Unfortunately the alterations made to the country's social, medical, legal and constitutional infrastructures may well be found to be irreversible.

Frank:

I think it would be great if the entire working population were able to have high paying jobs like you say. I am having trouble, though, understanding where we are going to get all of these $20 per hour jobs if we scare away the corporations and capital that provide those high paying jobs. You stated earlier:

"Doesn't matter if some business leaves. They're free to. Business will cater to the market. If the people here make enough to buy their product they will come."

If business leaves, the bottom line is we lose jobs. Those jobs have to be replaced. If businesses leave the only jobs available are those provided by the government. We only need so many people in the government to administer our tax dollars, which are generated by business producing or providing whatever it is they are providing. As the businesses leave and we have fewer people paying income taxes and fewer and fewer companies paying corporate taxes we won't need much government to administer the tax dollars becasue there won't be tax dollars to administer.

I share the exact same aspirations as many people that visit this site. I want to see people with proper health care, education, social services etc. I just don't share the opinions of most here as to how to acheive this.

I don't say for one minute that the current system is perfect or fair. It can always be improved with the hopes of a higher level of equality. It is impossible under this system for complete equality, capitalism doesn't work that way, but it never worked that way under communism as well.

There has yet to be another system that works as well as capitalism does. If you, or someone else, can provide a system that would work better than we have I would be the first to embrace it. I am a simple person that follows simple logic and to me capitalism and business just makes sense.

I don't come to this site to attack other peoples views. I come here to explore other ideas and possible solutions to the problems we face. Unfortunately most of what I see here is rhetoric entrenched in political ideologies. I have only been visting for a couple of weeks. Hopefully over time it will get more proactive.

The NDP has provided excellent government in Saskatchewan, Manitoba and B.C.. There is no reason they could not do so federally.

When the Alberta and national media want to knock the B.C. NDP they always mention the one billion dollars for the fast ferries. At least you ended up with something to show for it.

In well managed Alberta Ralph Klein poured billions into electrical subsidies before an election with nary a critical word in the local press.

Let's paint all Conservative governments by equating them to Grant Devine's Conervatives who turn no dept into huge dept(and corruption). But then dept is okay if it subsidizes the rich and powerful.

Well done, Murray Dobbin. Whether or not Harper makes it will signal if those very real differences in viewpoint still exist between Canadians and Americans. Canada's belief in a strong social structure (taking care of one another) over the individualist stance that permeates American culture, as well as a very Canadian national distaste for an imposed religious puritanism, (invading the bedrooms of its citizens) as opposed to the religious right and moral majority's grip on the US,( not to say elements of those don't reside here, indeed they are Harper's faithful) still those differences may make his ascension a much more rocky terrain to traverse than Bush found inthe US... if those differences still hold.

There is no doubt disgust over the sponsorship scandal but it is mostly media inspired I think. People aren't as shocked at corruption as we pretend to be, just as DH Lawrence once said people largely feign shock at the use of profane words, it'a kind of etiquette we know is expected of us, but deep inside we recognize corruption, four letter words are part of the human experience. Not an advocacy of corrupt ways just a recognition that it exists in an imperfect world.

Still I believe Harper is a real threat to our country. And that it because he doesn't love this country for the same reasons as we do. He, in fact, doesn't love it at all. He operates out of a sense of national inferiority, that we are less, not quite up to par with the US, ironically even as the US's gait is swerving ever more wildly. As I've said before, Harper and Mulroney are easy dates, cheap dates, American wannabees who'd sell their soul and their country to become boy toys of the US.

And for that alone Harper deserves the moniker Scary. More and more lately, both provincially and federally we see acts of treason normalized and hidden, knitted tightly into the fabric of political party platforms. We can only hope that the Canadian electorate will see through this enough to take an unflinching and steely stand against those who would betray the sovereignty of our country.

Eddie, you're talking chicken and egg. Where do we get good jobs if there's no business as opposed to where do we get good jobs if business won't come here because we don't make enough money to create a demand for their products.

The climate for workers and business has to be balanced. Good wages requires a healthy economy BUT a healthy economy also requires workers who are are paid a good wage. Business can't push wages down and expect tax cuts to make up the difference in order to keep demand propped up. If you have a social conscience then you have to be bothered by the effects that lost tax revenue has on the bottom tier.

Where I'm concerned is that more and more businesses have chosen to move their production away from North America but have used liberalized trade to keep their markets. Its a way of having your cake and eating it too. Its not sustainable.

Not rhetoric, or at least not meant to be.

Just wanted to add, I'm not excusing corruption, nor the Liberal government's culpability, nor any governments. The power to hold governments accountable needs to be placed with the people, so we have the power, legal and otherwise to address betrayals of our trust. That power must lie with us.

Only that Dobbin makes an astute point that it is the future of this country under consideration here, indeed will it a Canadian one if Harper is elected.

I am constantly amazed at how you get so much depth and punch into so little type space, woman. I am in envy of it.

And here, you succeed at it again; a spot on piece of analysis, yet so succinct and to the point.

For that is so much of what is at work here, in the national ruling class view, picked up on by those who would be their political mouthpieces in the governance institutions of the nation-, that sense of being "subject" , of ever standing as less in another's shadow, so replete throughout our political and economic system. The Neocon Brownshirts here, fair involuntarily and unknowingly weep with it; that enraged, suppressed sence of inferiority that has been perversely turned back on itself, like servants who loyally serve, awash in their own sence of resentful inferiority, hating those even, who have done what they dared do not-, rebel against the system.

But there I go, making complicated what you had already expressed so simply and adequately.

Stephan Harper wants to be the governor of a U.S. colony.

In this age of globalisation why are the conservatives only focused on tade with the U.S.?

We are missing a chance to trade with China and India. It doesn't help that the CEO's of "Canadian" companies are in head offices in the U.S.

Frank:

Sorry, but you lost me on the opening paragraph.

I don't disagree with you on the need for balance and the need for healthy wages in the economy. I don't agree in legislating a wage that can be determined in the labour market. Jobs generally pay what they justify economically. Artificially raising wages is not sustainable. Good jobs (ie: ones that add higher value) are the key to increasing the standard of living. The only way to attract those jobs is to improve the education of the work force and to add more value to that which we produce.

My comment about the rhetoric was not directed at you. I apologize if you thought it was. It was more of a general statement about much of the content here.

Mel from Calgary:

I don't know about the NDP in manitoba and Saskatchewan, but they certainly did not do an excellent job the last two terms they were in power here. Most BC NDP supporters I know would agree with me on that. Bad example to make your point with.

Furthermore, we have nothing to show for the fast ferries here. The ferries that were built were sold literally for scrap in the amount of about $40 million if I am not mistaken. A fine return on our investment. Another bad example.

Eddie, I didn't say anything about legislating higher jobs. Its just that I don't believe we should remove the supports that make those wages possible. I believe liberalized trade agreements that protect business and investors but not workers puts pressure on wages.

You used the word "artificial". I'd like to expand on that. For most workers, working in Canada is a closed loop. They can't fly to Singapore to buy a DVD player or shop in Hong Kong. Ever pay the UPS charge to have an item delivered to Canada? Its cheaper to go to Future Shop. The worker's wages and their spending both occur in Canada. Their taxes are paid to the Cdn government and the benefits they receive are here. Business on the other hand can operate outside the borders already. They can purchase material from where its cheapest, have their widget produced where its cheapest, register as a company in a tax haven etc. Business in other words does not live under the same reality as many workers. The corporation itself is transient. The shareholders at any given time may be completely different than a year before and may also not reside or pay taxes in Canada. They are chasing profits and want them to arrive as quickly as possible. There is nothing intrinsic about a corporation that makes it care about Canada or Canadians.

So why would business care about Canada at all? It doesn't. I would put forward its only because our population of 30 million has the purchasing power to pay for their widgets that gives us some leverage. That leverage allows us to insist on things like the auto pact, demanding that for every car sold here, they have to build one here. Without using our purchasing power to force business to use our workers and pay our taxes we would lose a lot of good jobs and our purchasing power would decline, and with it any leverage we enjoy.

Right now Canada is still a relatively rich country. To stay that way all trade agreements we sign should put Canadian, not business, interests at the forefront.

As well as our market, business needs our wood and our oil and gas and other commodities. We would never think of allowing business to bring in mexican workers to extract those resources would we? Why not? The answer is clear. It should also be clear that just as we would never allow foreign workers to take the jobs exploiting our resources, we should never give our market away for free either.

FYI, BC had a growth rate of 4.2% under the NDP at the end of their mandate. The Liberals never matched that. The NDP had to deal with a federal government that was reducing a 40 billion dollar deficit to zero and cutting transfer payments to do that, not throwing money at the province. The NDP had to pay higher interest on the debt than the Libs did even though the debt under the Libs was higher.

The NDP did a good job if you're comparing their record to the BC Liberals since. The numbers are clear.

mel writes: "The NDP has provided excellent government in Saskatchewan, Manitoba and B.C.. There is no reason they could not do so federally." obviously you weren't here mel, so please quit commenting on things you know absolutely nothing of. the ndp under harcourt, clark, miller and dosanjh (did i leave any out) were probably the worst gov't in our history. these guys couldn't even stand each other, and now carole james needs to pretend she doesn't know them just to win any credibility whatsoever.
as far as the federal liberals go, these guys have been doing this forever. the only difference this time is that they finally got caught, but everything will be okay b/c they're going to give it all back!

It's in the eyes (yes, I know, not the most intellectual approach to the subject). In every pic I see of Martin I see honest eyes. Harper sends chills down my spine.

Who is responsible for most of our Federal debt? I believe it was the Conservatives. Brian Mulroney that is.

Yeah, lets give them another chance. Those right wing thinkers are so smart.

Selling off of the BC fast cat ferries by the BC Liberals was like adding insult to injury. Yes, the BC NDP screwed up big time there, but the BC Liberal's solution was equally moronic. They can't come up with any solutions to make the ferries workable. They didn't even try. The BC Liberals just wanted the ferries out of sight and out of mind fast! It's easy to criticize, but forming a solution is much harder. And the BC Liberals clearly don't know how to do that.

Ron Erwin wrote

"Steven Harper isn't scary, he is a reasonable man with reasonable ideas. Conservative values are " smaller government, self reliance, low taxes, accountability, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, Provincial rights and honesty. What's scary about that ?"

If thats what he actually belived he wouldn't be so scary. But the reality is as soon as these neocons get in they give you: 1. big government 2. attempts to impose religion on society 3. repression of freedoms 4. war 5. centralization 6. low taxes for the rich, high costs to the workers 7. an attack on working conditions 8. an attack on social services 9 corruption.
Lets face it Ron, they are crooks and pathalogical liars only out to fill the pockets of the corporations at the expense of the average person. Don't get sucked in my them!

So in the next election we will have to decide between a party with Wacko hidden agendas (and a NeoCon surface) or a party that has been in power so long it knows almost nothing but corruption (granted not on a scale comparable to our southern neighbours-but still rightfully still unacceptable to Canadians).

Is our best hope really for a new minority government lead by the Bloc Québécois? Can I stick my head in the sand for the next four years?

JIm-BOb posted this reply yesterday:
"First off Budd, Jack Layton will raise corporate tax rates as soon as he got in to power, if ever. To pay for social programs you need to get the money from somewhere and it's bad optics to raise personal income taxes. Raising corporate taxes is a NDP trademark.

Your right personal income taxes do raise more money, I think, than corporate taxes. How do individuals generate income Budd? I'll let you answer that one.

Budd, are you saying that the NDP won't spend more on social programs. Then why vote for them if your "progressive"?"

I believe that if you look at all the party platforms the only suggestion for a new social program is a child care program, which I have variously heard estimated at about $5 billion.

I am glad you do acknowledge that personal income taxes raise a great deal more than corporate income taxes. Individuals derive their incomes mostly from wages, but their non-labour income is also taxed, whether they work in the private or public sector. It's disengenuous, to put it as mildly as possible, for businesses or industries to say they pay a total of $X in taxes to government, and then include their employees' income taxes in those amounts. It shows an almost medieval mindset on the part of some Canadian business leaders, that their employees' wages somehow remain the property of the employer (the Master?) and that he can take credit for their payments to governments as well as his own.

What Layton would do in Government is, I assume, just what he said. Not lower business taxes at this time, but not raise them either. I grant you there is a need to be internationally competitive and that may require personal or business taxes to be lowered, but in that calculation remember that Canadian employers don't bear the health insurance costs of their US counterparts.

It does seem clear to me that Mr.Harper is keeping his true opinions mum except when speaking to the choir. I think this must be because when he says in public what he believes in private, regular people gape at him like a man who just exposed himself. It is scary.

I think he wants power so he can punish us. Punish our sins, our fornication and sodomy and poverty and un-Christian-ness. He seems to think people only differ from him in thought, word or culture because they haven't been saved.

Of course he wants to follow the Bush agenda. A fellow fundamentalist with the same confusion between his religious, political and economic values. Why did Mussolini want so much to be a friend of Hitler's?

He will drive even more Canadians into taking up residence in dumpsters, then he'll take away their dumpsters.

He and his will be fine, though. As long as the wood and water last.

They'll go to church every Sunday and raise money to send missions to the heathens. And of course pray to Jesus to save us sinners.

hidden agenda, wacko hidwacko hidden agenda, wahidden agenda, wacko hidwacko hidden agenda, wacko hidden agenda, wacko den agenda,cko hiddhidden agenda, wacko hidwacko hidden agenda, wacko hidden agenda, wacko den agenda,en agenda, wacko den agenda,

KEEP IT UP GUYS. HYPNOSIS WORKS ON WEAK PEOPLE AND VICTIMS ALIKE!!

Jason Kenny a Conservative MP from Calgary was just on CBC Radio 1 this morning. He was saying that at the two day convention they had the party would not bring up any legislation on abortion but there is nothing to stop a private members bill coming forth. Gee, do you think anyone in their party would do this?

Would one of Stephen Harper's supporters tell me how interfering in a woman's choice, dissolving then banning same-sex marriages and any other part of the social conservative agenda is "less government".

In the Conservatives plans there is always lots of money for court cases. We know from Stockwell Days short 2 year case it doesn't take long to get to a million dollars.

mel; harper has stated unequivocably that he supports full rights and benefits for same-sex couples. the cpc's stance is based on 'not changing the traditional definition of marriage', for 4% of the population. is that so difficult to understand? as for abortion; they won't touch it. private member's bills are introduced all the time, and they go nowhere. would you like him to ban private member's bills, or do you actually support democracy?

Remember when Stockwell Day was elected to replace Preston Manning as leader of the Refo-o-o-rm Party? Stockboy finished his acceptance speech, then suddenly he raised his arms, looked into the sky (ok, ceiling), and bawled for no reason at all "And Jesus Christ is my saviour!" It was so unexpected and irrelevant. But it was nice of him to announce his priorities.

But at the time, it scared me silly. I could see him linking up with George W. Bush and the evangelical crazies in the U.S.A., and Canada would be sold or gifted into slavery of one kind or another. Stockboy had to go.

It was all so clear, what to do. We got him to change his name to Doris. He went and sat with the M.P. from Aurora Ontario, Ms. B.S., and we never heard from him again. It was delightfully straightforward.

But if the C.C.R.A.P., Alliance, Conservative, Whatever Party does come to power, Stephen Harper will be prime minister unless he falls off a cliff before then. Ms B.S. will be Minister of Trade or even Finance. Stockboy will be Minister of Foreign Affairs. It won't be so easy to defeat them this time -- not with the Liberal Party wallowing in corruption from Victoria to Ottawa.

Paul Martin is trying frantically to depict himself as the innocent victim of the Liberal Party. This is so stupid and sad. Because (paradoxically) if he could come clean and admit that he himself got into the Prime Minister's chair with the help of Liberal campaign workers like Dave Basi, we could begin to trust him -- and the Liberals -- again.

He won't do that, though. So there's only one sensible option, both federally and provincially:

VOTE NDP *** VOTE NDP *** VOTE NDP *** VOTE NDP *** VOTE NDP

What a complete crock of shit. The wages paid are more in direct proportion to the objective "power" relationship between the "wage payer"and the "wage receiver". Which is not to say that the supply and demand for particular labour plays no role in the arrangement, but only that everything else being equal, it is primarily a "power" issue. Who enjoys the greater preponderance of it, and who the lesser. No mystery here.

Which is why the ruling class, those who pay the wages, really hate unions so much. It interferes with their otherwise dominance of the arrangement, by introducing a matching power on behalf of the wage slave.

Other than that, the market is very little "free" at all, but much more controlled by the larger corporate ruling class market players, who establish the laws and rules of conduct and norms that "control" the market in their interests. The greater freedom invariably follows the greater set of interests.

Free Market!? Hog swill.

Dear sirj, (may I call you sirj?) It's always a delight trying to debate with you. You seem to feel that heckling is a good technique because it can't be answered. As an example, your somewhat odd post above seems to be rather inarticulately suggesting that no politician could possibly be harbouring a hidden intention. Am I getting that right?

Because recent history really calls bullshit on that idea. Shall we use actual English words to discuss that? Or will you grace us with another song? I'm sure we'll all enjoy some more gobbledegook from you.

the number 1 priority has to be kicking the liberals out

Uh,no...the number one priority(didn't you guys read what Harper actually THINKS??)is keeping an infinitely worse,nightmare scenario from coming to pass.I truely can't believe some of the comments in this thread.What do we need to do to get through to these lunatics?

sirjohna, The neocons always pretend to be moderates during election time. Then when in power they institute their extremist programs. This is the opposite to the NDP which comes on as moderate during elections, and once in power is actually rather conservative.

I know this issue is dead serious, but Coyote invariably doubles me up laughing. [To sirj with love, this time.] Now the serious bit.

Often we hear that the NDP would damage the country because of poor business or management skills. Here's what I think ...

I think most of us have been around long enough to have seen first-hand how "business" threatens economic warfare with the studied intention of damaging the economics of the country. Or at least threatening to do so. Big contracts will be cancelled if the NDP wins an election, workers are told. The company will move to Alberta unless the "X" Party is elected, workers are told. Sign these membership applications and we'll pay the fees, workers are told. I've heard first-hand those threats of economic damage, haven't you?

Trouble is, the scam often does seem to work in their favour, and the argument crops up again and again: that it's the NDP -- not the Oligarchy -- which will cause the economic damage.

Stop me if I've already told this story but, as you will see, it was burned into my memory at a very early age. It goes like this:

My old Dad was one of the earliest members of the old C.C.F. in British Columbia. He was campaign manager for Dr Lyle Telford who ran for C.C.F. Mayor of Vancouver(and hey, won!). My Dad had a clear vision, after the horrors of WWI, that there had to be a better way of life.

I remember these men and women who founded the C.C.F. as only a child remembers: with a vivid clarity which begins with attitudes-- they had hopes, courage, decency, boundless energy. I remember J.S. Woodsworth with his pointy white beard, as he looked down at me. I remember Grace McInnis to whom I gave a bunch of violets.

One day my old Dad attended the funeral of one of their CCF colleagues in Vancouver. I don't remember who died. I only remember the newspaper report.

What seared itself in my memory was my Dad reading the Vancouver Sun aloud to my mother, in disbelief.

It said that the pallbearers had worn red armbands (not true) which proved the C.C.F. to be a Communist organization (not true). Dad was right there, at that funeral. I remember him spluttering at the outrageous, disrespectful lies. But the Vancouver newspapers continued with that story for days and days (read Wilson-Tyabji, Nanaimo Bingo, Fast Cats, Clark back porch ...).

I was 9 years old. Imagine, a child at age 9, in Vancouver, understanding first-hand the basic tool which Goebbels would later use to usher in the Nazi regime in Germany. I learned that there's the truth and the appearance of truth, and I learned to ask: "Whose truth?" I saw that the truth might even appear later as a tiny apology on page 26 which would scarcely be noticed ... so that the lie would live on.

And I've wondered, all these years, how people fail to notice that it's the Oligarchies who decide on the economic damage which will be done to this province or this country.

There's no better example than the F.F.F., so cruelly misnamed and so thoroughly trashed by the bad press. Eventually, Washington State engineers were asked to evaluate those Fast Cats, and found them to be good ships with only two minor flaws. Their supposedly important report was a tiny item on page 26, more or less -- and the lie lives on; which smoothed the way for these beautiful ships to be literally thrown away, gone, out of sight, out of Canada. [Ontario later bought a similar ship from Australia. It's now in ferry service between Toronto and New Jersey.]

But it was the Oligarchy which decided that destroying those ships and B.C.'s ship-building reputation was a fair price to be paid (by the people of B.C.) for the dismal joy of economic damage. The Oligarchy couldn't bring themselves to salute the N.D.P. for creating a new workforce or for designing ships similar to those used in Australia or the East Coast. No, the business elite of B.C. considered that the damage was worthwhile, enabling them to blame the N.D.P. for something big and dramatic, even if false. And the government elected by the Oligarchy's press let them do it. That, of course, is "just" one example.

So it makes no sense to me, to put the Oligarchy's Fox in charge of British Columbia's economic henhouse, with no checks and balances whatever.

It makes perfect sense to put decent, caring people into government to speak the truth for the people of B.C.

Oops. Sorry. Got my favourites mixed up. That was Bailey who got me laughing today.

That was a good story Mary. Having a memory of JS Woodsworth? I think I actually said "wow", great man. Thanks

Thanks for the memories of the old CCF, Mary. And it is true the propaganda techniques against progressives is always the same. My eyes were opened by reading about the first demonstration I went to. The newspaper report and the situation as I experienced it had nothing in common. Pathological liars, I'd say

the lefties are running scared on this one. the cpc will win a minority if the election is in june and a majority if the election is in febuary. what to do? move to france or sweden.

The thing that concerns me is that if an election were held right now, BQ would sweep all of Quebec and the ROC would be dominated by the new Tories. Does that sound remotely healthy to anyone? Having watched the legislative debates in BC (holding my nose) since the Libs took 75 of the 77 seats here I can say democracy and civil discourse is ill-served by such huge majorities.
Did we get healthy governance when Chretien had such large majorities? Or have we been getting better better governance and greater accountability from the current minority government? I'd say the latter.
Especially since the upcoming federal vote would be so heavily influenced by allegations being made at the ongoing Gomery Inquiry. This won't wrap up until late fall and the criminal trials haven't even started. I think it's only fair to wait until these results come in before we head to the polls, so we can make informed decisions rather than emotionally driven ones. And possibly we would see something useful come out of Gomery etc. rather than it being forgotten and sidelined by the politicking.
Then, too, when we kick the bastards out, perhaps we won't swing wildly to the other side of the pendulum's arc.

To pull a 'R-T. DeLay': Don't want to be off post but.... This is the second time this week commentors have mentioned the Fast Cats being gone. Not so, last time I was downtown (beginning of April) all three the boats have been right in the same spot they have been since sold: North Vancouver all lined up and pointed towards downtown.

P.S. Weekend traveler to Nanaimo, hated those things, all long as BC Ferries keeps putting up prices to stop traffic increasing I am happy to see them keep patching up the old vessels (and saving big$$).

By lefties I assume you mean the NDP, I don't believe Martin qualifies as a leftie even if he and Bono partied together once.

Sirj: what an interesting thought:

... the cpc will win a minority if the election is in june and a majority if the election is in febuary.

Have you forgotten that the Communist Party of Canada (C.P.C.) lodged a legal protest when the Refo-o-orm/Alliance/C.C.R.A.P./Conservative/Whatever Party adopted the Communists' historic initials?

Au contraire, the Far-Lefties wouldn't be running scared if they formed a minority government in June or a majority in February.

Tell us, o enlightened one, what it is you think they will be doing which should alarm us?

you're absolutely right frank. martin is not a lefty but he is forced to lick their boots at every turn. this the price for power, which the federal liberals cherish more than their own.
mary; you should not be alarmed. harper is far too intelligent to be persuaded by the very few zealot rightists remaining in his party. he will govern with balance and common sense, if he can ever break through the moronic sheepish majority of ontarians, who believe the ridiculous fear-mongering spewed forth by the libs and the ndp.

sirjohn, I really don't think the NDP is ruining anybody's chances in Ontario, hehe, not at 17% or whatever it is.

and certainly not on the prairies where they're a distant 3rd. I have a lot of friends back there, they generally vote NDP provincially but can't stand Layton. Blaikie and Nystrom would have done better there.

so really, you have to blame the lack of support for Harper on his own record of what he's said and the Liberals. When I used to hear Harper speak as head of the NCC I figured it was obvious he had no desire to run again in politics. But obviously people have short memories.

Oops, didn't mean to hit "post". Just to add, Harper's current rise has everything to do with the Liberal fall, its not about a big move to conservative principles all of a sudden.

If you take Harper's photo and add a Hitler style moustache to the image the resemblance is remakable. The man should seriously consider spiking his hair.

So, the party of Mol ruin ey is back. I have not met anybody who had a good word for him. More selling out of canadians just round the corner. Why are people so willing to give power to those devils?
NDP + liberals got an overall majority of the votes cast in the last election. When will votes count equally in canada?
In the next election, ndp + liberals will still probably have an overall majority of votes cast. And there is still the pc to concider. Why do you use a system that can so easily give power to the guys that are only using the conservative party lable as a disguise? They are not going to get close to a majority of the votes. All the FED LIBS have to do is cull martin and the other guys that were stealing the money, Clean up their act and allow external auditing of the crap that goes on.
Otherwise, harper will have have his little piggies in the same feeding frenzy.

nice post eddy; sounds like your i.q. is about par with the other fear-mongering idiots.

sirjohna,

Harper has no wisdom about him.

In relation to some, he may posses a sort of intellegence, but he is also young, power hungry, untravelled, untried, and too purely booklearned.

His hands reveal they are not used to work.

His eyes reflect a predatory nature. My guts feel dark and contracted when I see him.

And if he were ever to ask me to dance, I would refuse, because he has no natural rhythm about him.

The man is out of touch.

I want a human being, not a shallow vacant lot, as prime minister.

sun; you mean like trudeau, mulroney, chretien, martin?

A potential world leader should be able to confidently spin a foreign Princess about the dance floor, if occasion should call upon him to do so.

Being able to converse in more than one language would be a plus. An understanding of different cultures gained through personal experience, rather than local cultural parades would offer more validity.

A little bit of triumph over great difficulty, time spent solo, and some flair for the arts, if only as an appreciator, would also tend to round out a human being.
Only by rubbing up against life can one learn to be confortable amongst many kinds of people.

As a potential world leader, the guy is totally lacking in substance.

Unfortunately, it is pretty much the case across the board.

actually sun harper's french is fairly good, and he's also quite humorous. i suggest you try to find a tape of the last press gallery dinner, where both martin and harper had them rolling in the aisles, as did adrienne clarkson, believe it or not. i also disagree with your assessment of harper as power hungry, as i believe in some ways he's an unwilling participant in this whole affair, and he seriously considered quitting after the last election. as for flair and charisma, you're right, he has none, but vanderzalm had plenty.

Jim Stanford has piece on the Comment page of the Globe and Mail on the bottom of page A13 Mon Apr 25/05with a little reality check about the Gomery allegations.

CKNW is as bad as any over the top right wing talk show in the U.S.
They have non-stop Liberal bashing hosts that don't take any responsibility for statements that are outright lies. Its just constant Harper propaganda and pushing American Republican policy in a clever spin way which Warren uses constantly - the ultimate goal of a Harper government would be a seamless integration into U.S. (or as I have heard it called on some American talk shows - the U.S. of Israel.

Has everybody read the celebrated expose of THE MAN BEING STEPHEN HARPER by Marci MacDonald in the Walrus Magazine? in the Victoria Independent Media Center - original article is at: http//victoria.indymedia.org/news2004/10/31934.php

sorry that was supposed to read: THE MAN BEHIND STEPHEN HARPER

My apologies: My fingers just won't do what I want them to that site should read:

http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/10/31934.php

Yep, democracy sure is SCAREY! Let's avoid an election at any cost! I mean....what's wrong with being governmed by a criminal conspiracy? Watch out, folks, you could end up replacing those likeable thieves with GASP people who believe in stuff like...uhm... marriage!

Why is Martin presumed either guilty or incompetent in the Sponsorship scandal but Campbell and Gary Collins and Christy Clark are presumed innocent in the legislature raid/BC Rail kerfuffle?

Besides that it's the way Can-West and CKNW present the issues.

After reading this extremely scary article (can one be lulled by the Kennedy good looks and smile of Harper?) I cannot understand why this story is not featured more prominently. I thought that not seeing one NDP poster in my trip from UBC to 41st and Granville, via 16th was scary enough. This almost makes me want to ignore the local election.

Good link rebel, long article but a good read.

Raising of corporate taxes is seen by some in this forum as anathema. Every year that our Canadian banks post their earnings I am in shock. That's where I would begin to tax. And they make all that money charging me for every transaction.

I sometime think (and please correct me on this one)that the relationship between the US Government and American corporations is somewhat ameliorated by the fact that many of those coroporations (through an adequate tax system) contribute to the arts. I would like to see some way of getting Canadian corporations get tax deductions only after such contributions to the arts.

Toronto Academic Andy Stark wrote in this week's Maclean's magagine that the scandal is "the total breakdown of moral, legal and institutional boundaries...on a scale that resembles the worse kind of corruption you's find in a developing country." That Mr. Dobbin prefers this kind of government should be sufficient information to ignore anything he says about politics in future.

Obviously Percy you won't be voting Liberal provincially either. Since Mark Hume in the Globe believes the raid on the leg is probably the tip of the iceberg in "the biggest political scandal in Canada". In BC "where a conservative judiciary is suppressing information about alleged drug dealing, money laundering and influence peddling."

BC Mary, great story about the CCF which a character in a novel I'm working on calls the Canadian Communist Federation--a joke, obviously. I get your point about voting NDP, as I have always done, but I'm obsessively hateful of Harper and mindful of Mulroney taking hundreds of dollars in a hotel room so I'm voting liberal.

At least I'm not EMBARRASED to be CANADIAN!

Truman Green, thanks for the kind words. It'd be fun if the character in that novel used the C.P.C. joke.

C.P.C.: Conservative Party of Canada?

or C.P.C.: the much earlier, legitimate, registered political party which protested vigorously (but got nowhere) when the Reform/CCRAP,Alliance Party took over the initials of
Communist Party of Canada.

Harper is not perfect, but look at our choices. We have the Liberals who have lied, abused, corrupted and stolen taxpayers money for their own benefit. People should be going to jail.

Layton is an ass for aligning with the Liberals, it shows a lack of moral fortitude to do so. Also it is clear he is out of his depth as a national politician, god help us if he ever became PM.

Paul brought up Same sex marriage in the hopes that the conservatives would screw themselves. Do you really think he gives a damm?

Some other comments I noticed here. As an ex-soldier I am applauded by the NDP’s totally lack of policy on defence, except for some airy fairy comments on “peacekeepers”. Supporting the gun registry? What crap is that, 2 billion for a system that has taken 2 years to register my .22 rifle? Any gun owner will tell you a multitudes of horror stories about the gun registry and Firearms Act. The Firearm inspectors have search powers that would make the KGB envious (and where is the outcry about our civil and charter rights?) If you want to save lives, that 2 billion would have paid for rescue beacons for almost every boat in Canada.

I have voted NDP all my life, my father was an MLA. I can no longer bring myself to support them on the federal level. I look forward to Harper, despite some of the issues that will happen.

Hi Colin. Did you say that you voted NDP all your life and now you're voting for Harper? Now, THAT is definitely a giant leap of faith. With all due respect for individuality, how is this possible? Doesn't Harper stand for everything the NDP has always stood against? Or am I missing something? If it's the corruption that's bugging you, well it bugs me too, but how about Mulroney taking 300,000 bucks in cash in a hotel room, not to mention basically ruining the Candadian economy. I'm also wondering if your KGB--Firearm inspectors analogy is a bit weak. After all, the KGB answered to noone and kidnapped and murdered basically at will.

Yes the KGB comment is a bit farfetched, just some of my frustration showing. But there are major concerns about the search and seizure powers of a Firearms Inspector. For instance they can search any receptacle in your house that could possible hold a firearm. They can also search and seize your computer and data. All this without a warrant. If they did this to the gay community imagine the outcry. But since we firearm owners are not “politically correct” no one cares. The media has effectively painted us as redneck, beer guzzling, bambi killers, ready to go off our rockers at any moment. Meanwhile gun toting criminals get prohibition again.

As for the NDP, in my opinion they have abandoned the grassroots of Canada and have ignored issues that are of major concern to me. I will still vote NDP provincial, but I can’t say I have been impressed with their campaign so far.

Collin - you sound like one of Warrens lemings - you know the one's he calls stupid Canadian sheep = that means you for falling for his crappy agenda while he is shilling for Harper and leading you down the garden path to being an American Republican. If you know who a man is by who his friends are you better read "THE MAN BEHIND STEPHEN HARPER" and his buddy David Frum who wrote a book with Richard Perle and you should read the review of that book in The
American Magazine - go to the Archives and click on NO END TO WAR - welcome to the world of the neo-cons and good-by to your country. If thats what you want for Canada then you're nothing but a traitor and good riddence.

Rebel
Yea I am a traitor, who sat in the Fulda Gap in the 80’s awaiting the Warsaw Pact, spent most of my adult life volunteering in the community and 15 years in the Coast Guard, most of that doing rescue work.

The Liberals have lied to me, stolen my money, abused the civil service I worked for, destroyed the army I was proud to be part of, they treat me like a criminal because I have a firearm. As for the NDP, they have been adrift for years like a boat without a rudder and I feel abandoned by them.

Spare me the crap, I am not afraid of the unknown devil in the closet. Democracy is a about change and not always having your party in power. The liberals are completely corrupted by power and Layton has sold his soul for a coin.

I have two choices left Conservative or Bloc Quebec. If the NDP wants me, then get rid of that ass and show me that they care about the issues I care about.

At least Truman Green can disagree with me and still do it in a dignified manner. You remind me of the taunts of a spoiled child having a temper tantrum. I bet you are one of the people that wished that Russia had won the cold war?

Colin: I'm very sorry for your deep unhappiness.

I just wanted to suggest that you have a look at what the N.D.P. under Jack Layton has accomplished in the last 48 hours. He seized the opportunity to make a big difference for people and, I think, succeeded.

It's worth looking at Stephen Harper's performance too. A short while ago, he was meekly supporting Paul Martin's budget and Paul Martin's minority government. But now he's furiously angry about the benefits won by Jack Layton, he says he'll bring down the government ... align himself with the Separatists ... and quite possibly destroy the country. He says these benefits are the worst things he's ever seen in Parliament. Huh? What put Mr Harper in such a rage?

Well, apparently Conservatives and corporations can't abide the thought of Canadians benefiting from affordable housing, lower tuition fees, better training through E.I., improved public transit, an energy efficiency program, and pension protection.

That's what the N.D.P. stood for, that's what Jack Layton bargained for, and that's what Canadians can expect to get from the N.D.P.

BC Mary
I don’t believe for a minute that the Liberals will honour those promises. They have a long history of promising the world and then sucking the money out of the program when no one was looking. I am afraid that the NDP has been hoodwinked. They have sold their soul for nothing.

"Sold ...?" How so, Colin?

What Jack Layton bargained for -- and got -- was benefits for students, low-income earners, workers, the unemployed ... please explain.

If Harper brings the government down, of course, the Budget goes down with them. That would be Harper's fault, right?

Mary
Sorry for being short, dam work getting in the way of ranting. :)

I have worked in the Federal Civil Service for 15 years and 10 years with the military. I have seen so many programs promised with much fanfare by the Liberals and then funds were quietly cut, so only a shell exist, a prime recent example of this is the Office of Boating Safety. Not to mention huge wastes of money on the Universal Classification System and the gun registry to name 2. The Liberals will promise anything to anyone right now, the addiction to power is enormous. But they will not honour those promises.
Are you really willing to have the Liberals remain in power? I can no longer stomach them. I am confident that with or without NDP support they will fall. As the full extent of the corruption seeps into Liberal strongholds, they will lose their home support. In fact having them kicked out is the only way for the decent folks in the Liberals to save their party, by cleaning house and they cannot do that while they are the government.

What bothers me about the NDP aligning themselves with the Liberals is the loss of morality. They are willing to overlook activities that threaten the very core of our system. This says to me that the leadership of the NDP is satisfied that the end justifies the means. I guess I can not bring myself to support anyone who does that. In my travels around the world, I come to appreciate democracy and the benefits of a system that is normally free of corruption. I was willing to put my life on the line for those beliefs and do not appreciate being used by others that care nothing for them.

There are a lot of things I don’t like about the Conservatives, but our system needs a change and they are the only present choice that cares about the other forgotten issues. I care far more about the lack of equipment for our men and women of the forces than I do about same sex marriage. (by the way isn’t marriage a religious rite and the responsibility of the government?)
My wife is from Malaysia and she has watched everything taking place with amazement as nothing like the Gomery Inquiry would ever take place there. She has no allegiance to any party, but her view is that Harper is the best leader of the 3.

Mary, that little X is supposed to be a happy face, oh well at least this new system here allow paragraph breaks.

http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2004/10/31934.php

Thanks, Rebel. Holy Cow. Recommended reading!

Colin: It all seems so darn sad, really. You want the best for the country but to me, Harper represents what's so godawfully bad. One small example is the crooked trick he played on David Orchard (a good guy) and then Peter MacKay (a pretty good guy, too).

I'll think some more about this and maybe write again tomorrow. I hope you will, too, as you're describing a dilemma being replayed all across this country today.

Thought about it. And going back to where I started: my point was this ...

When Paul Martin needed N.D.P. support, Jack Layton, as leader of the N.D.P., saw it as an opportunity to bargain for benefits to students, workers, and the poor. He demanded real benefits like affordable housing, reduced tuition, job training, energy conservation, and pension protection.

It's been a long time since we saw Parliament stirred up to enhance the lives of Canadians this way. No other political party would have done that, Colin.

Layton provided a brilliant demonstration of N.D.P. founding principles ... and what it means to be N.D.P.

Colin, you fear that the Liberals will not fulfill the promises he won from them. You're right. It's possible that Stephen Harper will bring down the government, force an election, and the entire Budget will fall by the wayside. But that doesn't change the quality of Layton's efforts. It was a remarkable act of public service.

I was proud to see that. And that's what I was trying to tell you, when our conversation got started.

I'm looking forward to your next post.

I agree with you Mary, a minority government with the Libs and NDP holding their feet to the fire is very good for Canada. Its the threat of a Neo-Con government that worries me even if it was the progressive Conservative people of the old party would be better for the country but they were pushed out or refused to serve under Harper. The American Conservative Magazine in the States is made up of the old progressive Conservative Repulican party who were alarmed and resented the neo-con takeover of the
Pentagon and what their policies were doing to the U.S. Going into the archives AMCONMAG.COM you find a lot of interesting reading if you try to keep track of the big picture. Some of them have a TV show called McLaughlin on PBS on Sundays where they argue and carry on but they would be I think the equivalent of the old PC's like Joe Clark, Elsie Wayne and John Crosby who altho conservative they loved the county and weren't trying to destroy it. The people on the above show I mentioned say the method of the Neo-Cons is to divide and conquer. That causes chills up my spine when I hear of Que separation and Western alienation which is a direct result of right wing media in the west constantly fueling that idea.

Mary

I do understand your desire to see something good come from all of this. But I feel that you are missing the point that the Liberals have lost the moral authority to govern. Martin called the election when he did because he would have known what the results of the inquiry would be. He tried to dodge the bullet, but did not count on a minority government. He also wanted to call an election while his main opposition was still trying to get their act together and would not be such a threat.

As for this fear mongering about the Conservatives and the Bloc. The Bloc is a direct result of Liberal policies. The Bloc will become more powerful because the Liberals in Quebec will lose their seats because of the utter disgust that the Quebecers feel for being used by the Liberals. Personally I would prefer either more NDP or Conservatives there, but I don’t see either party having much of an impact on the protest vote. I am not worried about Quebec leaving, as they know which side their bread is buttered on and the First Nations will not side with them. They will make lots of noise, get something to save face and it will settle down again.

Morale in the Federal government is plummeting, because we can not respect our Ministers and know that no real work will be done until an election is called. In our department we were told that there will be no review of our Act, because it is not important enough even though it has been previously identified as a priority. If this government is allowed to continue till the fall, they will use that time and our money to buy as many votes as they can. There will be no real direction and no future planning.

You feel that the Liberals won’t be able to fulfill their promises because they will be kicked out by the conservatives. But I contend that the Liberals have no intention of honouring those promises. They will only do what will keep them in power and will betray the NDP as soon as they can.

I feel it is much better to have the election, get the Liberals out of power and have a real government again. The NDP had a chance to gain the moral high ground and become a real force in the opposition, but they have squandered it for a few pieces of gold. This will come back to haunt them. The stain that taints the Liberals will seep onto the NDP.

In the two areas I have mentioned as my main concern presently, the military is grinding to a halt because of a lack of spare parts, money, ammunition and the failure of major equipment. The money promised is mostly money that had already been promised and not delivered. Soldiers in Bosnia had to give up protective plates for the people going to Afghanistan. Serving soldiers tell me of not being able to qualify on the range because there are no bullets in the system. None of the weapons or ammunition expended in Kosovo where ever replaced. Some things have improved, but only when the government was embarrassed into doing so. What does it say about a country that does not support it’s own sons and daughters facing mortal danger?

The Firearms Act and gun registry is a dismal failure that has be to propped up by lies and Cabinet secrecy to maintain any sheen of decency. Having read the comments of some of the Chief Firearms Inspectors, the place is rife with hidden agendas and efforts to reduce workload have resulted in legal owners of certain firearm being prevented from taking them to a shooting range (It would seem that they consider putting holes in paper target a mortal threat to public safety) I also know police officers and none them place any faith in the information they get from the CFC, if they can get it.

Better get some work done. I have enjoyed discussing this with you Mary and I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. This is the part that I enjoy about democracy, the “right to respectfully disagree” and is actually as important as the right to vote.

Just one point to repeat, Colin, and then I'm outa here: I was talking about the N.D.P., what they stand for, and the benefits for people which the N.D.P. leader bargained for and won.

Racist Tom Flanagan to lead CPC election effort

Wednesday, April 13 2005 @ 01:33 PM MDT
Contributed by: Action-Jackson
Views: 654 [!!!]

According to the Globe and Mail, in the event of a spring election, the Conservative effort will be managed by University of Calgary professor Tom Flanagan.

Born and educated in the U.S., Flanagan shot to infamy with the 2002 publication of his book "First Nations: Second Thoughts" -- which preached, among other things, that First Nations were uncivilized savages that should be assimilated.

For more on Flanagan, read the devastating expose published in Walrus Magazine called "The Man Behind Stephen Harper."

I am amazed this string of commentary is still going. I shows how much people want to debate.

The unfortunate thing with our political system is that the Conservatives could form a majority government with a minority of votes. This would give them the power to sign away the country to the premiers and the americans and no one could stop them. They wouldn't care if they got a second term because the "fix" is in. The FTA and NAFTA are designed for one reason, to tie the hands of democratically elected governments so that ideas like Medicare and government auto insurance can't happen again.

There are two things Canadian neo-cons hate is a well run government program and a well run crown corporation. So these have to be wrecked at all costs. Stephen Harper is the man for the job because he is willing to do what-ever the Fraser Institute and George W.Bush tell him to do.

Those of us in Alberta who aren't fans of Ralph and Stephen rely on the federal government to mellow out their extreme policies.

Mel from Calgary: I couldn't agree with you more. Thr provinces of this fair country are being lined up like a a set of dominoes strategically placed to fall to the further expansion ot the American empire. No need of weapons of mass destuction, it will all be set up for them. And Harper especially, federally, and Gordo and Ralph, provincially , will facilitate all things to this end.

This is where Trudeau got it right in his belief that to allow provinces to act independently at the expense of the entire country, was to eventually lose your sovereignty. A sovereignty that depends on a strong, accountable, federal government with integrity as well. Not an easy thing as BC Mary points out.

lynn; you need to go back to school to take some history courses.

"There are two things Canadian neo-cons hate is a well run government program and a well run crown corporation." you mean like the ndp regime of the 1990's and b.c. ferries under the ndp? or maybe you mean hrdc, gun control, shawinigate and the sponsorship program? lmao!

Actually I would argue that the BC Ferries were not as bad as people make out, they had their problems. I worked one year there and I would say that the biggest problem was the absolute lack of trust between the management and the union, both worked hard to screw the other. However compared to other Ferry systems around the world, BC Ferries were fairly efficient, dirt cheap and safe.

The Fast ferries were not poorly designed or built, but the political process certainly was. I knew Glen Clark had scuppered himself when he attached a political platform to them. Fast ferries around the world suffer from all sorts of problems. What we tried to do with the fast ferries was a gamble to save the ship building industry by creating a place for ourselves in a niche market. The government should have stuck to that line and not allowed politics to become involved. Also the launch schedules should have been based on the technical reasons not political. Marine survey indicated that these vessels were well built and a credit to the industry. The type of voyage we wanted to use them for was questionable and also the issue of large debris found on this coast presented problems which the operators should have been better prepared for.

The way the program was cancelled by the Liberals is just as disgraceful and ruined any chance for us to recoup our investment. Out of this program came a group of welders trained in the latest techniques of aluminium welding and has help boost the small boat industry here.

Glen Clark and Gordon Campbell, different sides of the same coin.

interesting if true colin. but if it is true, why did they not fetch their worth? just curious.

Frank - the only reason we have a huge auto industry in Ontario is the competitive advantage of the canadian dollar, the auto pact (precursor to free trade) and the free trade deal itself. It's just cheaper to build cars in Canada plain and simple. If that were to change in any substantial way, the auto industry in Ontario would not be so huge.

anarcho said

"The neocons always pretend to be moderates during election time. Then when in power they institute their extremist programs. This is the opposite to the NDP which comes on as moderate during elections, and once in power is actually rather conservative."

Wrong again anarcho - the NDP comes on as moderate during elections, and once in power proves to be extremely incompetent, at least here in Lotus Land.

Pardon me for three consecutive posts, but I have been reading the whole thread and responding as my blood boils.

Mel from Calgary complains that the Conservatives could form a majority government with a minority of votes. If memory serves me, the Liberals have done so many times in the past and in BC the winning party typically does so with about 45% give or taker a couple of votes.

Anyway, what I really wanted to say was "Thank you" to Colin for his well reasoned comments and arguements about the nature of good government and true democracy. Sometimes the best government is a new government, even one who's policies you do not personally agree with or support. It helps to generate new discussion and new ideas. And if the the new guys go to far, to fast - the voters will toss them out the very next time.

I personally have voted for four parties provincially and three federally in the past 36 years. Being self employed, I am a free enterpriser at heart, but I still managed to vote for Mike Harcourt's candidate when the SoCreds got to hard to take. They simply did not deserve to be re-elected. Ditto for Glen Clark's government. The NDP in my view still has not won back the right to govern us even though I cannot support much of the present Liberal government's record. When Carol James or whoever succeeds her manages to clearout the extreme left wing wackos (Adrianne Dix et al.) and distances the party at least a little bit from the militant public service unions I'll reconsider that view.

In the meantime a change in Ottawa would be refreshing even if it is from Stephen Harper. We could use some change there. Changes to the criminal injustice system would head the list. Accountability (as in auditing and measuring bang for the buck)in government spending and some fresh ideas on the health care front would be nice too.

The nice thing about our system is that if he or his party screws it up, we haven't elected him for life. All politicians and parties good and bad in the end pass on (except for the Federal Liberals).

So I'll bite my lip and vote Liberal provincially and will enthusiastically welcome a chance for change in Ottawa.

Oh yeah, I don't own a brown shirt and I'm married to a federal civil servant and a staunch supporter of the NDP. But I support her (and anyone elses) right to think what they want, say what they want and vote for whomever they want as long as it's not a left wing wacko :)

the red X is a little smiley.

Sirjohna

Excellent question, I think the main reason is they are purposed designed for our berthing systems, they are rather unique that they allow RO/RO from the front and rear. The bow door reduces their ability to take green water impacts and I think their fuel tankage is inadequate for longer runs. But I also think the poor handling of the selloff plays a big part. They should have finished one, done more trials and modified the other two, keep them in cold layup in the winter and used them in the summer to supplement existing runs. You could then continue to sell them as running vessels with low hours and potential buyers could assess them.

If you were selling a car and put in your ad that you think it is a piece of junk, how any buyers do you think you would get?

I see on page 13 of the Globe and Mail an article about a conservative bill already causing trouble with China. Anyone who thinks there will just be a little change had better study the article in the Walrus called THE MAN BEHIND STEPHEN HARPER then connect the dots to a lot of things. Their ultimate goal is to turn us into the Republic of Canada supporting U.S. and Israel. Just remember your sons and daughter would be coming home in bodybags and missing body parts like thousands of grieving Americans and all for a lie. Stockwell Day having anything to do with Foreign Affairs is insane.

When are we going to get an up to date article on the Federal situation - considering the Gov almost fell today and we're going to be forced into an election we don't want - less than a year from the last one. I see for for all the screaming the Conservatives did about Judy Scro and caused her to honorably resign to clear her name have been proven wrong WRONG for all their false accusations. Thats why this big push on the Gomery thing - they are afraid it in reality isn't nearly as bad as it seems - I hope that bunch of rabid screamers get voted so far out of the picture - if I never had to look at Harper with his phony self rightious baloney it would make my day!

You may not want the election, but I sure do. I have to take my marching orders from them and I have no respect for the Liberals. The only one that I could find any respect for was David Anderson, at least you knew where he stood. Except that he was not very aware of some of his department’s mandated responsibilities.