Many thanks to Mr. Dobbin for outlining this sinister trend. Hopefully, the majority Canadian sentiment will quash the aspirations of the North Americanists. I suspect that the Canadians who are engaged in these Machievellian pursuits believe that they are acting to head off more overt American annexationism, but it's a very dangerous game.

How about these traitors just leave the country and live in the US for good if they love it so much?

Aw, I dunno. Inviting all those states that want to separate from Jesusland to come up and join us doesn't sound so bad. I'm sure there's a hefty population of Australians, New Zealanders and Brits who wouldn't mind joining us either. Or in the rest of the world for that matter. Maybe it's time to build a new worldwide country of people who are alligned with a particular set of values that doesn't include domination, slavery, exploitation or other forms of planet-killing.

Is the EU a bad idea?

I always dreamed of the day that Canada annexes Alaska. It all makes sense with my Gulf Stream Project and eventual exspansion into Northern Russia. The world will be at our mercy. In other words... dream on dreamers.

Nope, RonY, Canada joining the EU is a great idea.

I can't take any more of this political treachery.

The Tyee better watch it, the anti-Canadians are always on the lookout for anything that smells like anti-Americanism.

You can almost hear them now whining that opposition to deep integration is just typical anti-Americanism, envy etc.

As someone else said, I wish they'd just leave.

Except in banking, I don't see integration really taking place. I mean, all these odd clandestine political affiliations popping up around here lately are mainly about money. The chance to grab up the commons. If you can own the water or the air you're in a position to tell your customers 'pay me or die'. Then charge whatever you want.

Politically the picture is very different. Much more likely, comes crunch time, that we fall apart into twelve or fourteen small Balkanized countries. Quebec would like to try to stand alone, nobody would want to join Ontario, but California, New Mexico and Nevada are a natural. BC, Alberta, Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Alaska ditto. The prairies, Dakotas and Illinois, New England and the Maritimes, The Midwest, Central East Coast, two or three in the South, Mexico and Texas, The Isthmus countries around the canal.

People are far too bloody minded these days to show any hope of unity. The financial wizards see an opportunity to use new technologies to rob and steal. When people finally wake up to this, politicians will be hard pressed to find any support for anything from anyone, so low will be their trustworthiness.

The center will not hold, and as always, the great will have to become smaller until things can be reorganized. Except that according to economist Jane Jacobs, reorganization may take a thousand years or so.

Just in time to renegotiate the BC Rail deal.

The flurry of protest from Americans (some living here) against the same sex bill really riles me... one woman said "America is a great country because of it's MORAL code", bahahahaha, and that Canada was falling apart morally. Ahhhhh!!!!! NOTHING whips my temper into a frenzy more than this kind of thing. Get the heck out then!! But interesting in a way, because as much as some Americans think the influence only flows one way, this is proving that clearly it doesn't.

Deep integration is more like deep penetration sans the KY Jelly! Our ruling class are nothing but a bunch of compradores, ready to sell us for a handful of shrinking Yanqui Dollah. I am not one for nationalism, but I think wherever these swine go they should have a hoard of people shouting "traitor" and "'sell-out" at them.

The softwood lumber dispute was supposed to be solved by the Free Trade Agreement but the Americans keep dragging this along despite losing time and again. The Americans have no intention of honouring any international agreement. They will take what they want and ignore the rest.

The question for John Manley, Michael Wilson and the rest of the gang. In this age of globelisation why do they only want to do business with one customer?

China is the next frontier lets go after their business.

I too am not for narrow-minded 'nationalism' , but most certainly I'm for a positive vision of Canadian soverignty.

Regretably, we have, except for the Charter of Rights, a colonial constitution that allows for elitist Executive Federalism. The Prime Minister's office , the Premier's office, and a tiny corporate oligarchy and their think tanks, have captured 'government' and they do what they will.....the frame of an elitist , low-level democratic structure is constitutionally in place, upon which is imposed a continentalist capitalist frame.

Yes, those selling out this country and comprising its soverignty are, in my view quislings and compradores.

The only hope, and it is a faint hope, is if the people of Canada wake up, proclaim that soverignty vests inherently in themselves as a people and not the Crown, and democratically establish a Constitutional Constituent Assemby...to democratically change the 'rules'

Otherwise, frankly, I'm extremely pessimistic about the future of this country...the current 'rules / 'frame' has no political space for a credible soverigntist alternative. We, the people continually get brainwashed by the media to think that issues such as the 'sponsorship scandal', 'auditor-general reports', and a myriad other "issues" ..are what constitutes the "news"....and activists devote so much time and energy fighting this or that matter - which in many cases is needed .

BUT, What is also needed is a 'constructive' not destructive vision for the left in Canada, a constructive vision of a 'soverign' Canada, and that sure as hell isn't coming from any of the mainstream political parties - only the Bloq has a vision for a soverign Quebec outside the Canadian federal constitutional 'rules'.

In part, that's how I see it anyway. The trend line continues to show Canada has nothing but a supplier of oil, gas, minerals, forest products, ...and later water to U. Sam. ...all this facilitated by the quislings...until a soverign Canada...is but an empty,gutted out shell, where the majority of Canadians are poor tenants in their own land.

"Regretably, we have, except for the Charter of Rights, a colonial constitution that allows for elitist Executive Federalism. The Prime Minister's office , the Premier's office, and a tiny corporate oligarchy and their think tanks, have captured 'government' and they do what they will.....the frame of an elitist , low-level democratic structure is constitutionally in place, upon which is imposed a continentalist capitalist frame." wrote Peter D.

A quick peek in. I have an early morning.

I agree with much opinion here, but especially Anarcho and Peter D., who get the complexity and interconnectedness of the national and internationalist issues, with the most depth, I think.

The global movement towards a coming together of the world community of nations is, I think, an irreversible process, with many complex economic, political and human dimensions driving it, and the quicker we come to understand that, the better we will be able to respond appropriately, in a way that protects our interests. What is being fought over essentially is, the terms and conditions upon which we form our new global relationships, and the ideological and social basis upon which that will occur.

Will it be "their" way, the way of global corporatism and their elitist models? Their way, in which the great and aggressive nationalist centres like Imperial USA cannibalize upon the rest of us, and in league with global corporate capitalism, play us off one against the other, with their divide and rule preoccupations. Or will new, powerful and progressive movements of the people emerge, forging global alliances around trade unions, women's movements, a progressive environmentalism and other people's organizations, opening up a new direction of egalitarion rather than elitist opportunities, in which the race is not to the bottom, but towards a more progressive sustainability?

There's no question "they", the big corporations and their bootlicker political hacks, like much of our own national leadership, have the jump on us, and that the matter is already in the process of being decided over our heads.

Personally, I am hopeful, and there are some grounds for being so, arising from a slowly changing national mood, but it is difficult in current conditions to maintain a constant positiveness, no doubt. And there is no guarantee "the people" will win-, at least in the short run, or the long for that matter.

History is such a goddamn, complex, and grinding process, is it not?

It is important to fight on however, as best we can.

I agree, anarcho, screaming "traitor" would at least make me feel better. We need a Zorro symbolic mark of betrayal for quislings.

Will it be sold as 'installing democracy' or just a simple business deal?

If I say no to this plan am I then a terrorist, a freedom fighter or just a malcontent?

Coyote: "Global corporatism" is evil because of its (lack of good) intentions, not because it is global or corporate. After all, Amnesty International is an example of a globally focused organization with a centralized, unelected locus of power. I'm relatively optimistic about the future, because the basic nature of people is to choose to feel good about themselves. Given the choice, people almost never choose to behave monstrously. It seems to me that practical idealism demands that we come up with more socially positive alternatives for consumers. Someone is buying the "green" toilet paper, right? (Non-practical idealism decries the entire concept of toilet paper, but then loses its potential audience and marginalizes itself.) That's question A. Question B is, do state arrangements really matter anymore? Given the subsuming of political will to the needs of capital, does it actually matter if North America balkanizes or becomes a unified United North America? Public oversight matters, but we can't be overly sentimental about the exact forms that are suitable for today's needs.

Ron Y., while I can certainly wax sentimental about the our current place in the world and the history that sets out Canadas uniqueness, it
shouldn't take a super patriot to realize that becoming a part of the most brutal, paranoid and dangerous regime in the world is not my idea of political, economic or rational wisdom.

Your primary view of life appears to be filtered through the narrow economic prism of capitalist wants (let's be frank here), greed>.

While I won't even quibble about your inane argument that balkanization leads to unity, I can't sit back without commenting on this ludicrous suggesting that "public oversight" committees, no doubt filled with senators and other feathered nesters are going to look out for the peons that won't have a fucking say in the smashing of our country.
At the risk of being seen as overly sensitive, I would suggest if that is what you want, why not head south now and get an early start in your new life.

But if you do, watch out for any of those military or contractor interrogators who have been working in Iraq, Cuba and who knows where else.

Word on the street is they are quite into behaving "monstrously" and they don't seem to need much motivation.

I support a North American economoc union similar to that of the EU. We have to stand up to the EU in strength. They are trying to rip-off North America ( KYOTO , World Court ect. ) I am not going to move away to the USA. I hope to change Canada to something more conservative, similar to the USA.

Maybe we should learn from the Iraqi resistance how to deal with our own traitors?

Ron Erwin, please explain "We have to stand up to the EU. Canada was an early signer of Kyota, World Court (and just what etc?) and the Americans remain hostile to both.

Stay if you wish, but please quit making a fool of yourself. The vast majority of Canadians would shake their heads in dismay at your fawning desire for a bloodied greenback.

Conservative? John Diefenbacher would be rolling in his grave having to listen to such tripe from someone who calls himself a Conservative.

Most of us aren't surprised by this but it is devastating to read nonetheless.( I mean, the sale of BC Rail, Accenture embedded in BC Hydro, Maximus etc. are all helping towards fulfilling this devious dream). We already are deeply integrated, deeply in denial as well.

I heard Seymour Hersch the other day saying he now believes there is no stopping the neo-con agenda. They do not listen, nor allow disagreement. They are a machine. A hint of disagreement by a journalist exiles you from the information. He believes that Bush will attack Iran by summer despite what he says, that he will create a crisis, more sanctions and then say Iran has broken the sanctions.

As governments exile us from the information, they become, in effect, our enemy.

I try to remain hopeful like Coyote, in agreement with Dimitrov that sovereignty must find a new ground, vested in the people, not the Crown, since the Crown seems infested by a lot of treasonous pirates these days.

And allan, if you say "no" to this deal and it ends with a bang. Bang: You're a terrorist. If you say "no" to this deal and it ends with a "whimper", the civility of a mere business deal, (which seems the custom these days) you just lose your shirt and your soul, and ...yes, you're still a terrorist. Or at least an insurgent.

I wish I had more time here, because this is a really important discussion, in my view-, but aye, I've gotten myself too damned busy again.

"As governments exile us from the information, they become, in effect, our enemy." , which slam dunks it, in an excellent wee piece by Lynn, who says concisely what would take me 2-3 times longer.

Nationalist or internationalist, what Canadian in their right mind would want to become a part of the US Empire, especially at this juncture in history? I'd personally rather be a part of the EU, and they have their own problem set, or even a union with Latin America sans the US. They are the enemy at the gates fer chissake, for just about the entire balance of the world! Save for the Alliance of The Bribed around Iraq, which includes much of old Eastern Europe, and it would seem, at least, Official Canada and its bootlicker ruling class. They have always been short on vision, or any capacity for independant wisdom. It is their history, which is unfortunately mirrored onto all of us.

(We are Poland on the eve of the rise of Nazi Germany, or even Czechoslovakia. Which is more the vision of continental or hemispheric unity the US has. They are the Reich to which all must bend the knee.)

Allan, you've misread my post. I said that political will at all levels of government has been subsumed to the needs of capital. This is an observation -- indeed, a cliche -- not an endorsement. Hence, it may not matter if North America becomes one nation or many fragments (and nowhere did I advance the suggestion, rightly termed inane, that aggregation leads to schism). As for heading south, we're already there buddy! We're not scrambling to maintain Canada's independence -- it's gone, sans even the ritual sanction of being able to vote for their congress. Extrication of Canadians from the sordidness of the current American empire is going to take more than merely deciding not to join their common market. Coyote: I think we're closer to being France than Poland or Czechoslovakia; they won't need to destroy us physically.

The comparison to Vichy France is apt when one considers the collaborators, but as for the 'need' to destroy us physically -- no, but it's happening all the same.

I agree, the comparison to Vichy France is even more apt. And there is nothing in your piece immediately above I would disagree with.

Fuck!

We have such a servile mindset, at the level of our ruling class, and maybe even lower down in the class tree. About which I don't want to even think right now. It only makes me very angry. Like I've been humiliated. Like, ohhhh, maybe an Iraqi.

On Balkanization, the thing is, the US is not going to turn into a bunch of little countries. Its just not going to happen anyway, anyhow, anytime.

So that leaves the current power imbalance between the current US and the current Canada. As provinces grow stronger in relation to the central government it will only increase the power imbalance as even Ontario is smaller than a united Canada.

So comparisons to the EU are invalid. More like post-Versailles Austria's relationship with Germany. Shared history and language and when the mood struck the Germans, political annexation. Not even an actual war, just a done deal.

The Norwegian Quisling and other collaborators kept a low profile pre-WW2 whereas we seem to tolerate the traitors in our midst and their calls for our annexation. They even have their own party. But unlike the Bloc, the Conservatives shy away from publically saying they don't think Canada is a real country. Yet the people behind deep integration, behind the hand-over of our country to the same people that invaded us in the past are always conservative interest groups. They're Canadians that suffer from envy and self-loathing.

Coyote, it's the original Star Wars syndrome. Remember? The one that never pretended to be anything other than a fantasy space opera? "The more tightly you squeeze, Darth Vader, the more who will slip through your fingers!"

I think the central failure in all this argument is the failure to embrace the inescapable diversity of humankind.

All I hear is either/or. Them or us. When clearly it's them AND us. Always has been. Always will be. It's the nature of humans that they differ widely on several planes and in several languages.

We say 'they' will do this or that, will force everyone into the same restrictive mold, and we resent it. Because, of course, whatever mold you're talking about, only a few will fit into it. Foxies Darth Vader quote is very apropos. The strongest, rigidest mold is also the least stable.

Like a pressure vessel without a safety valve, the volume of the resentment it holds will always come to exceed it's capacity, and it will always pop. The odd thing about this is that it looks strongest, rigidest, just before chaos ensues. Extreme intolerance is not a sign of strength, but of impending explosions.

If we want a stable society, we need one that tolerates everybody. There has to be business and enterprize, but those who favor co-operative life must have that opportunity as well. Without sanction. An economy must exist that can nourish absolutely everybody. Whether they can work or not, whether they are Capitalist, Socialist or Rhinoceros. Everybody.

The only alternative is oppression of the out-group leading to chaos sooner or later. Funnily enough, I seem to remember a Canada in my youth that was very tolerant, and also very prosperous, where even poor people could find a way to live together. What happened to that Canada?

In re: to Ron's words "I hope to change Canada to something more conservative, similar to the USA"

Forget it, buddy. You are the kind of person I am talking about- Canada is NOT the US and never will be. When my dad immigrated here in the 50's, a young man of 19, he chose Canada over America for several reasons. He told me what those reasons were, and they haven't changed. I, too, would MUCH RATHER Canada join the EU than move ideologically closer to the US.

Sadly, we really are nothing more than a resource-supplying semi-sovereign state of the union. The branch-plant status Canada enjoys allows massive profiteering by American megacorporate interests, inundates us with the United States' culture of greed and waste, and distinguishes us as Canadians not one whit from the seething, mindless mass of maggotry south of the 49th parallel. We drive the same cars (too much), eat the same (GM) foods, watch the same TV, exhort the same common religion ( money, profit, growth), and will suffer the same fate in a few short years as our friendly neighbour to the south collapses economically, socially, and environmentally. We should be making every effort to distance ourselves but alas, the Paul Martins and Gordon Campbells and Ralph Kleins of this country are intent on crawling so far up the ass of Dubya's empire I fear we will share the same fate. Spelling color with a "u" nothwithstanding.

Well well well!Fellow Canadians.Follow the Iraqi example.They are treating the yanks properly.So we all know what to do when the facsist pigs come marching.I NEVER want to be fucking yank,or North American.If I am correct the death penalty still stands in Canada for treason? Onw way of getting rid of all the business trash.

Well well well!Fellow Canadians.Follow the Iraqi example.They are treating the yanks properly.So we all know what to do when the facsist pigs come marching.I NEVER want to be fucking yank,or North American.If I am correct the death penalty still stands in Canada for treason? Onw way of getting rid of all the business trash.

Wipe the spittle from your keyboard and take a pill for your double-posting delirium tremens. Oh, and change your handle there - that one's a trademark for Adolph Coors now doncha know. ("I Am Canadian"©™)☺☺☺

Fi; It's too bad your father decided to come to Canad rather than the USA. Your family probably would have been richer. Remember that the USA standard of living is 30% higher than Canada's.And the USA is much more democratic than here.

I feel your pain, we all do. But pouring your bitterness and disappointment out all over the heads of people around you is considered bad form.

The biggest difference between Yanks and Canadians isn't spelling. It's that Americans have abandoned civility in their interpersonal lives. They see no need for politeness or courtesy. Canadians still do. At least those of us who don't have to deal with Americans too much.

Interesting times, no doubt.Eh?

In which it is the source of my hope. Interesting times are more fluid and immediately unpredictable. And one does hear the water gurgling beneath the snow's crust.

I always though the Chinese got it wrong really, in that bit about interesting times anyway. "May you be spared having to live through interesting times."

"Bring on the interesting times!" says I, whilst I still have some vigour left. They are really, really needed-, to separate all that fucking Quisling chaff from the wheat. :-)

Hey! The sun is out! Theres a trail through the bush and meadows, I want to see if it's open and I can get through it on my aluminium steed.

Maybe catch yas later. My Lady is all gung-ho that we should see Finding Neverland this evening. I have my hesitations, but will do all for love.

Ron, please explain just how rich Americans are again, with an average per capita debt of over 280 thousand American dollars. We as Canadians can't hold a candle to that at just $67,140. Canadian. I suppose you could blame it on your social programs, heallth care and all: or just good old fashioned American Corporate Greeeeed.

Remember, our business class is human too. Some people are more sinister than others, but I honestly think that our leading citizens have simply been coerced, much as the Romans intermarried, co-opted the leaders of other people. Canadian leaders are genuinely scared of America, and it's a sad site to see.

djammer; In US dollars ( funny this how we all relate to value) per capita income in Canada is $21,175.00. USA is $33,385.00. Considering that they are allowed to deduct mortgage interest from thier taxes, it's no wonder that 70% of Americans own their own house. This compares to about 40% of Canadians. And they are way more democratic too. They also manage to defend Canada as well, at no charge. Can you imagine if we had to put this into Canada's budget ? How would we ever be able to pay for a universal daycare system. ( Dumb idea, just give families $3,00.00 per child to have a choice )

Who has America defended us against? Please cite any book you want as to when and where the invasion was, I must have missed it. I'm pretty sure the US wasn't saving us in 1775, 1812-1814 or during the Fenian Raids.

America has only had a big military since 1942. Canada has only reduced its military since it became clear we weren't threatened anywhere.

Also, straight US$ income comparisons fail to account for other facts and overstate others such as currency values. Canada places higher than the US in quality of life indexes and we live longer in spite of spending less on health care

But once again, both countries are pretty free. If you don't like one, you can move to the other. Its not like crossing the Iron Curtain. Lots of Americans have moved to Canada and lots of Canadians have moved to the US. Both countries are probably better off. The point is not dislike of America, its called loving Canada. Why cannot we simply be proud of our own country without the pro-US/anti-Cdn people getting all upset? Poll after poll shows that the majority of Canadians simply don't want to be part of the US. We have our own country and I believe anyone who actively works against our sovereignity is a traitor.

Ron Erwin, just who do you envision attacking Canada that would lead you to the assumption we need a major defence program?

There is only one country with any reason to invade this country, a reality that hasn't changed from the late 1700s when it began trying.

BTW, how many Americans have anything close to our medical system? Please don't trot out statements like America has the best medicine in the world. While there might be some technial truth in the statement, it's a crock of shit to most Americans who either can't afford anything but the basics or the 40 per cent who don't have any medical insurance.

Yes, the United States is a nice place to visit or even live if you have a bag full of money.

Saving your coins Ron?

allan; who would attck us if we were not defended by the USA ? Russia for one. I still don't trust those guys, do you? Or maybe even North Korea. The US will still protect us anyway, but it would be nice to show some appreciation. As far as our medical system goes, it's a joke. I can't wait intil it crashes and burns. Public Sector Unions make it impossible to work properly. The Americans have plenty of disposable income to pay for private insurance. Ever try to use our system Allan. It is disfunctional.

...none of the existing federal or provincial parties have the intent or courage to look at the institutional framework of our elitist Federal system which facilitates the complete sell-out of this country, seriously comprising our soverignty.

I propose that:

...we need a new federal political party in Canada, perhaps called "The Canadian Soverignty Party".

Secondly, The single most important element of its political platform is to submit to the people of Canada, one, clear referendum question, something like this draft proposal:

"Do you favour the creation of a Constitutional Constituent Assembly to write a new constitution for Canada, members to which Assembly are Canadian citizens elected by proportional representation."

Then, the elected Constitutional Constituent Assemby debates and writes such a constituton, vesting soverignty in the people, putting in checks & balances, ensuring rights, re-distributing federal/provincial jurisdictional competencies and taxation powers, etc. Vital to this all, is the equality of our three founding nations, French, English, and First Nations.
(bcpolitics.ca)

...otherwise, with the existing dysfunctional constitutional frame and inherited bureaucratic institutions of senior civil servants ...there is not, in my view, a hope in hell this country will survive as a soverign nation. .

Gee, you should check out the story in today's US Today. The US health care system spends more than ours and in fact could soon hit 19% of GNP. Texas says health costs will bankrupt their state. The US healthcare system will collapse before ours ever does.

As for the richness of our southern neighbour, did you catch the effect of South Korea talking about their prospects in regards to purchasing US$? Seems to have rocked the markets until they issued a statement saying they weren't going to sell US$. The US economy is living on other people's money right now.

As for the threat from Russia and North Korea, they can't even invade their neighbours, the Ukraine and South Korea. Where would NK get the ships to invade us? Probably the same place Saddam purchased his WMDs.

...one oil starts trading in Euros, and China dumps its US currency reserves in favor of diversifying its currency holdings, the US dollar will sink like a stone, and our loonie, tied as it is, to that sinking ship, will plummet too. With the US dollar no longer the world's trading currency...the Americans will not be able to afford to keep its world-wide military bases, ...and this doesn't even discuss Bush's fiscal failures which are absolutely bankrupting the US, along with the foreign policies failures. So lets not hitch our 'star' to a 'sinking ship'.

Ron Erwin is a total Yankee ass kissing wannabe bootlicker. No point even taking this Doofus seriously. He's the pathetic caricature of just another Yankee wannabe, ashamed of what he is-, not yet realizing that they are already on the downhill slope to a Has Been.

But then, once he finally realizes it, he'll just start casting around for another Sugar Daddy to wipe his ass after he butt fucks it.He's one of a sorry ass, traitorous type found near everywhere.

It seems abundantly clear to me that Canada should distance itslef economically and politically from the U.S. as quickly as posssible.
We need to reinstate 50% national ownership and start trading with countries in the EU and Central and South America. Hey and while were're at it why don't we all get together and let the US know, in no uncertain terms that we do not support the war in Iraq. In fact, we are adamantly against it and we want the U.S. to get out now! As for Bush and Rumsfeld they belong in the World Court.I am sick and tired of mealy mouthed politicians who continue to have diplomatic relations with these maniacs. They are war criminals and should be treated as such.

Besides giving the traitor class one way tickets to Texas, bring back FIRA I say! Toss out NAFTA and work on increasing trade with economies like China, Japan, India and the rest of Asia and Latin America. I don't want to be paying 20% on my mortgage when the euro replaces the dollar in central bank vaults.

Frank, you make an excellent point when you say that historically "collaborators have kept a low profile pre-WW2 whereas we seem to tolerate the traitors in our midst and their calls for our annexation. They even have their own party."

The Bloc at least is honest in its intention. The subterfuge of the Conservative party, it's pretensions of loyalty, should be shocking. Where is the outrage? I agree, the Conservatives under Mulroney, now under Harper, don't really like this country. They have just never thought Canada was quite good enough. Not quite jazzy enough for them and ironically, at the same time just too liberal, too unpuritanical. They don't like being Canadian. They never admit this publically but all the political body language is there.

The question is why we are we allowing a Quisling party to exist in our midst at all? Unless, even treason, just like all other products of the advertising industry, has been sold to the Canadian public through a complicit and compromised media. Such a sophisticated, persuasively soft sell waged day after day against the sovereignty of this country.

And again that is a very good point, Frank, that they are "Canadians that suffer from envy and self-loathing." They seem to reflect a psychological type that does not like themselves.

They should just leave. Their feelings of inferiority are destroying this country. The rest of us know we have a damn fine country worth fighting for.

Are we known by the company we keep, ideologically? I merely ask because one of the most able advocates of protectionist anti-integration -- he calls it economic nationalism -- is Pat Buchanan.

Those dirty FUCKERS!!!! sorry I don't like to sware on on here cus it makes one sound well ya know, If anything we should be arming our selfs.
I'm not a violent person but the american corporate machine is.
Each and every Canadian has to resist this any way possible if some of us stoped acceping american money or refuse to give an exchange rate. write angry letters flooding every MLA's office with 10 e-mails a day per person to your local MLA they might get scared...Wise move for Martin to reject the missle defence, far too much like the beaumark missle flop in the late 50s and early 60s
Canada should have stuck with the avro project but pressure from the americans and the GOD DAMN AMERICAN freindly pressive Conservatives, opressive more like it decided to not build our own fighter jets and let the americans look after us cus the yanks didn't want canada to be powerful and probably for this reason we just read about here. Canada made the first jet airliner not the yanks. this news is not good at all and i'm so enraged by this I can't express how much I hate those globalist bastards that want to start by brainwashing our young this is very fascist reminds me of a story about someone known as Hitler.

i think the people who live on the first nations land known as canada had better wake the fuck up real fast. america is not going to go away. it is a sick civilisation, nothing is going to stop it except ecological collapse, nukes, or total revolution. boycott america, dont be afraid to tell them to fuck off when you see those washington SUVs. This is our reality here, it is going to turn into chaos. we have to do what we can.

Cayote and B.Thompson; You are naive about the compassionate power of the USA. Remember, this is the land of the strong, free and brave. We are the land of pussies. Canada is an under-acheiving country. Europe is a basket case of socialism and bloated beurocracy. I don't claim the USA is perfect, but it's our pleasure to be associated with the bastards. Please don't try to tell me that we should be part of the EU. This would be a true disaster.

No data, no citations, no history, just wrap yourself in the flag of Fox News. Huzzah!

When the masses go against the policies of the neo-Con, neo-liberal agenda (and I can’t tell the difference), we need to be educated of our true values: we need to become aware of our true wants through advertising, through coercion, and they are good at it. In fact, the money, the corporations behind them are experts in the field and they do it daily on a worldwide basis.

I fear greatly, the encroachment of corporate interests into our education system with a continent wide curriculum: and of course brought to you by an American Corporation instilling their views, values, customs, and propaganda into our young and vulnerable minds. Where and when better to instill an American slant into our children, blinding them to the atrocities committed by their leaders, and sheltered from judgment by a world court by shear might.

In addition, it is an insult on “democracy” to site the US as a model for democracy. Are you blind, or is it simple brainwashing? You are run by the corporate interest, for the corporate interest, and picking up the tab, and just because your corporations can pillage the world for its resources, defended by your sorry butt under a tin hat, you hail this as democracy. I am sorry! I want no part of it, and rejection is the most pitiful state.

But kudos on the envy and self-loathing, that's pretty obvious. Might as well say the Wilson is better than the Spalding J5V too.

frankie, don't mistake loathe as envy. It is about our ability to govern ourselves without undue influence form the US and their corporations: sovereignty, democracy, ruled by our own citizens; something of foreign concept maybe. And what does your particular brand of hockey stick have to do with it?

Hey dj, I was referencing footballs, the CFL used to use the J5-V.

Anyway, my comment was referring to Ron's post, your post arrived 30 seconds before mine is all. Guess you thought I was referring to you.

Ron Erwin, despite the creeping profit-skimming of our "public" health system by privateers and their lackies,I still have more faith in our system than a would in the greed-determined health treatment process south of the border.

I am just amazed how bitter and twisted you are about Canada's more progressive social practices, which put the priority on humans rather than the dollar.

I am now convinced that you are one of those Canadians who enjoy an extremely good life in Canada, but are so petty and bitter about being on the fringes of popular opinion, that you are ready to deny the basics to needy children just to prove you can.

Quit being a hypocrite. Chase after your heart, which appears to have gone south long ago.

sorry frank, I thought that you had turned your coat. It is still an ambiguous statement, but I will try again. Oh, and I thought it was golf, but didn't want to appear ignorant, stupid is OK though, it is voluntary, and I prefer it as there is a cure. :-)

Ron Erwin isn't a Canadian.

WE KNOW ALL TO WELL THE SO CALLED compassionate power of the USA.

just ask those countries that got fuck over by American Corprate fuckers!!!

and I also lothe the statement Canadians are pussys.. Fuck you!! go to the USA assholes that say that shit!!!

Canadians are Mean fighter when we are pushed...

I guess we forgot the First world war where canda achieved many victorys The somme Vimmy to name a couple. Second world war canada was engaged in battle when the fucking americans were giving money to fucking hitler but that stopped just before the US entered the war!!! The Bltiz in London Canadian fighter pilots preformed amazing feats of courage, oh and how about sicily??
americans took credit for that too when canadians were first in. Normandy where canadians fortified all of its objectives and yes were first in as well.. do some fucking reading before making statements like that.................................................http://www.vac-a cc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=history.....................................................................................

Ron Erwin, 2/25/2005 8:17:34 AM, writes:

Cayote and B.Thompson; You are naive about the compassionate power of the USA. Remember, this is the land of the strong, free and brave. We are the land of pussies. Canada is an under-acheiving country. Europe is a basket case of socialism and bloated beurocracy. I don't claim the USA is perfect, but it's our pleasure to be associated with the bastards. Please don't try to tell me that we should be part of the EU. This would be a true disaster.

AssHole!!!!

sorry `bout the double post folks.

i`d like to address mr. erwins comment saying that canadians are a bunch of pussies. this is a common comment from ignorant conservatives whom think that if we`re not out and about the world kicking the shit out of little nations who have oil or grow fruit and coffee, we must be cowards.

well, my step father and thousands of wwII vets may beg to differ. and shame on you sir for forgeting the sacrifices they made. a coward does not join up and go off to a war where there is a possibility of no return. my step father was on the beaches on d-day, and he was shot in the head and thankfully survived. a real pussie i guess. i think about him all the time , and the things he has told me about the reasons why he went to england. he did it because he and the guys that went with him thought they were going to change the world into a better place. that was the sacrifice they were willing to make, for us. and it brings me a great deal of pain when i realize that those sacrifices were in vain. the world is no better now. you are an ignorant little man erwin. and not worth my step fathers sacrifice.

No Ron, I'm sorry I think you are naive. The US is going downhill fast. The only thing that is keeping it's economy afloat is the fact that the US dollar is the currency of exchange. Once the Euro takes over or China gets tired of propping up the US debt it will be the end of the US supremacy . What we are witnessing today is a desperate last gasp to hold on to power through war and destruction. They may have more weapons than the rest of the world put together but that does not legitimize what they are doing in Iraq or what they are thinking of doing in Iran. The business elite in Canada are dreaming if they think that deep integration with US would be good for Canada. If we need trading partners then let them be countries who understand the meaning of consensus and cooperation. And yes, those countries do exist.

I agree, Nationalist. Ron Erwin you should take out a library card and read some Canadian history - or better still go to some of the small towns in France and Holland where Canadian soldiers are hailed as heroes, monuments stand in honour of their courage, where men, women, even small children still crowd the streets sixty years later in order to thank the visiting Canadian veterans of war.

Really, you should just leave, you do seem to belong in a country where it's President forfeits critical defensive action against a major terrorist attack so he can finish reading My Pet Goat.

Annex Canada! It should'nt exist anyways, its a joke. It was meant to be part of the us in the first lace, the only reason it exists is because stupid loyalist of the revolution deny the fact they are american and rather side with cheese eating frogs in Quebec!

OK Usa citizen or Ron Erwin who ever you call your self now.
for one, it was the Americans that got support from France in the revolution, If you were American you would know that.. ohh wait...Americans hardly know what the capital of their own country is...If it wasn't for the cheese eating frogs the American Revolution out come may have been different hell if it wasn't for the French helping u block heads we might have had All of the great lakes. Does Yorktown, Virginia mean anything to you USA citizen??

During the 20-day seige, 16,000 French and American soldiers closed in on the 8000-man British force. The redcoats surrendered on October 19, 1781.

Usa citizen, 2/25/2005 8:04:12 PM, writes:

Annex Canada! It should'nt exist anyways, its a joke. It was meant to be part of the us in the first lace, the only reason it exists is because stupid loyalist of the revolution deny the fact they are american and rather side with cheese eating frogs in Quebec!

Scuse me, I don't mean to interrupt such deep insightful philosophy, but I feel I should point out that frogs don't eat cheese. Frogs eat bugs, mostly, except for those Cane Toads who seem to eat ping pong balls and mice. I saw it on TV. But no cheese.

I think your metaphor might be a bit crumbly. And sort of smelly.

Wait! I think I figured out where the cheese in your post came from! The whole post is made of it!

In fact, it's the cheesiest post I've seen for a long time.

Yes and Bullfrogs also eat small birds

Nationalist, I take great offence with "the only reason it exists is because stupid loyalists of the revolution deny the fact they are American and rather side with the cheese eating frogs in Quebec."

Pardon the expression, but your grasp on Canada-U.S. history seems appalling.

Your reference to "stupid loyalists" insults many of my ancestors, besides being rather bizarre.

But what I find worst is your bigoted and hateful treatment of people who are no doubt better Canadians than you will ever be.

Citizens of Lower Canada and subsequently Quebec fought and died defending against U.S. incursions during the U.S. revolution and in 1812-14.

You are a quite good example of what many people tread when someone takes a "Nationalist's" point of view.

Actually, Nationalist is quoting Usa citizen's reference to "stupid loyalist's " in the post above his. The quote is not his, he's as offended by it as you, allan.

Nationalist, I apologize for my statement, which should have been vented at USa citizen.

Thank you Confusing for pointing out the error of my rant.

A double dose of ire for USa citizen.

Perhaps I ought to stay off this site late night after an indulgance or two. Please excuse me as I try to pull both shoes out of my mouth.

Aw, don't even mention it. Chewing our Adidas in the wee hours is a sort of tradition around here.

I suspect that inserting both of his feet into his mouth at midnight was what made that Nationalist think about cheese so much.

The bad thing about this format is that it's kind of conversational, not too much time to consider responses to other people's ideas and remarks. The good thing is, it fosters humility when we have to acknowledge that on further consideration, maybe we were just the slightest bit, well, wrong. Never neglect to acknowledge that, when it happens, as it does to everybody.

It's kind of neat to be able to watch the evolution of ideas and even convictions on this site. That only happens when people are willing to have their minds changed by evidence and argument and reason.

Not everybody is. Only the best ones.

As evidence, I offer my own blunder. I should have said Usa citizen. Not Nationalist.

Allen it's Ok my post are confusing sometimes.
And cheesy no worries I thought you were refering to USA citizen as well...lol
next time i will make others quotes a little easier to read.
And you are right frogs don't eat cheese

PS I would have corrected you respectfully if Confusing didn't Because you are a Good canadian and share the same passion I have for our country

Let the flames begin!!!

Okay, this is getting like a Monty Python skit, Nationalist did not make the cheese remark, USa citizen did. Nationalist is just using a confusing format by quoting it at the end of his post. Bullfrogs he mentioned, but absolutely no cheese. Not havarti, cheddar, bleu, edam, monterey jack, mozzarella, brie...

Oops! I see, I, too have blundered, Cheesy. Didn't see your post to Nationalist when I posted mine. Sorry. Anyone for fondue?

There is too much world out there for Canada and Canadians to worry about the usa.Lets go for it.China,Cuba,Brazil,India,Pakistan,Argentina,and how many more?As for those who think the usa is so good you are free to leave ya know.

There is too much world out there for Canada and Canadians to worry about the usa.Lets go for it.China,Cuba,Brazil,India,Pakistan,Argentina,and how many more?As for those who think the usa is so good you are free to leave ya know.

Spud, Lets hope you are right! but the "lets go for it" statement is confusing to me, do you mean lets go for it join the USA? I hope not, that would be truley sad if this did happen. I would urge parents to watch like a hawk what kind of tripe they putting into your kids heads at school and look at the homework they assign them and be hostile about it to your local school boards if you think that what is being taught is even close to what this article is suggesting, It's in our hands now our govenments only represend the ones with the most money the rest of us are slaves and we don't matter to them but if enough people act hostile they have no choice but to change but the change will be a hard fight but anything worth keeping comes at a price. The thing that worries me and many other nationalists is canada has too much to offer the US for them to ignore such as OIL,Water,Uranium, Timber, the list goes on the other countries that spud mentioned has too little to offer the US and its full of civil problems that would make very difficult to control.
The US does not want to fight China the US would crumble with the amount of military resouse and man power it has, canada however has roads industry and so on that makes The US think Humm grass looks greener up north lets corupt them with wall mart cosco so that their standard drops to non exsitance then they will be a sleep in their cheap crap world and welcome us with open arms and have no clue how they got screwed....that is just a thought but its hard to not to think that way when Canada was about a #4 world power untill the conservitives came into power around the late 50s and were all like oh sure what ever you like IKE yes sir! how far should we bend over sir!

Sorry for not being clear.I mean lets trade with the rest of the world,open up for business with South America.Why business and government are infatuated with the US is beyond me.There is so much more out there for Canada to do and be a part of.Getting our economy away from theirs and making it more diversified is the right move,as the American economy is in TROUBLE.

New here but what a great site! I'm living on the prairies, but born in BC. Spud, you are right on. We have had all our eggs in one american basket far too long, and should be avidly developing new markets. We produce raw materials and finished products second to none and I don't for the life of me see why we should be handcuffed to Uncle Sam as our major trading partner, especially with the regime they have in the whitehouse. They profess to be our greatest friend all the while screwing us every chance they get. All I can say is enough already!

I thought we already were giving away our sovereignty as a nation. When we have to ask the Americans to move Canadian troops within our own country as happened during the Manitoba floods ten years ago, then I woudl say we've already pretty much become a puppet state.

So as far as integration with the US, both the short-sighted lefties and right wing yankee wannabe types have significantly undermined the sovereignty of our nation.

If you want a sovereign Canada - if you want a coherent nation - you had better start educating your children.

The first thing an enemy wants is your communication systems (including culture), then infiltrate the army/police (Texas troopers & RCMP, US immigration officers in Canada, etc.), and finally, get rid of intellectuals (defined as those who disagree and are articulate). Another method of watering down the opposition is to offer money - either via corporations/jobs, etc. - or the brain drain.

Let's face it, we are in the middle of a war to keep our own country - we just haven't the guts to charge and imprison the traitors - starting with Prime Ministers.

I have read the above comments. Delete the anger, fellas. Do that in the pub. Now, do some homework, Canadians. Educate yourselves on all the issues and get out to VOTE - get those traitors out of office. Then, boycott their businesses/corporations/media relations. And maybe working harder at finding other trading partners and becoming more resourceful ourselves just might win the war - because, like Sharon, I believe we are in it right now. Fellas, where is your Stanley Cup? The war started the day you gave it up for grabs!

This story needs to hit the mainstream media (I know... in my dreams). But it would be great to see it as a CBC special report or something...

Steve O. I wonder if you could expand that story of Canadians asking permision of Americans to move Canadian troops within Canada. That's pretty intriguing, alright. Unfortunately, I missed that story.

All this angst over americans taking over Canada when the Bloc - on our payroll, in our parliament - is as nefarious a bunch of quislings as you could get. Lets give quebec to the americans. They deserve each other.

You mean give it back to the Mohawks, OhSullivan?

Cathy, you make much sense. Anyone who has followed this 200-year-old effort to remain politically separate from our neighbours ought to realize it's those who want to amass individual fortunes off Canada-US trade who are the most shrill in defending our reliance on that troubled nation.

As ironic as it sounds, our so-called (financial elite), are the ones who are saying "we aren't capable."

What they are also saying, but gets lost in the din, is "I'm alright Jack", even as we watch the
lunacy of the American capitalist dream of controlling the world play out on our Canadian ranchers, lumber producers and now our soveriegnty.

If union contracts can be ripped up for the good of government and the public as our provincial supreme court has so "wisely" deemed, then why can investors and industry not be forced to pursue business opportunties that are actually good for our country?

I think it should be the patriotic duty of all proper-thinking Canadians to rid our country of such negative influences.

Yes, vote them out of office, boycott their businesses and out them publicly for their words and actions as agents of foreign beligerants.

Is this the way to deal with bullies?
How about standing up for ourselves like the good stubborn peaceful Canadians we are. We've been complacent sheep to let it get to this.
We don't have the security issues the US does because we don't go all over the planet killing people and stealing their land and resources.
We need to stand up for ourselves here, I don't think we're the only ones who don't want to keep following the sandlot bullies into foreign relations. As Canadians, we would rather talk it out peacefully than go kill a bunch of defenseless civilians who did nothing to us. These are the kind of people who, in drought and famine stricken Afghanistan, dropped bombs that looked the same as the yellow aid packages that the charities were dropping, so the fastest one to the prize gets his hands blown off. The land is littered with land mines so people get maimed just going about their daily lives. Keeps them on the roads where they can be tracked easily.
I've been reading David Icke - "...And The Truth Shall Set You Free", then "Alice In Wonderland And The World Trade Center Disaster, Why the official story of 9/11 is a Monumental Lie". I like that he is 90% research and 10% opinion. What an eye-opener! All the agencies with all their protocols and procedures in place to protect America against terrorism, apparently were asleep at the controls (or something) the morning of 9/11 – they said they found out like the rest of the world, when it came on TV! There was no real investigation allowed, the site was cleaned up real fast. The stories of all the agencies whose responsibility it is to protect the US skies, who somehow gapped the morning of 9/11, contradicted each other's stories repeatedly, until they refused to answer any questions: 'that is part of an ongoing investigation', 'that information cannot be released', etc. This is ‘protection’? The more we let the bullies have it their way, the more we aren't going to like the way our future unfolds. The 'devoid of heart' elite seem to have the power pretty much sewn up with their tools of banks, media, pharmaceuticals and military. We in the bottom half of the pyramid of power and knowledge are pretty much considered as no more than slaves to further the appetites of the ruling class. The truth is that the so-called 'real world' is anything but - it is only the reflection of our inner being, both individually and collectively. It's like as if your consciousness is looking in a mirror and seeing what your eyes see in your life. Apparently, the 'real world' has no more actual reality than the image you see when you look in the mirror. And just as that mirror image has no power to change its course of action, as you looking in the mirror have that power, so it actually is - the only place we can really change the world is from our inner being. It's all about what we believe and imagine. If we live in fear, doubt and guilt, we are easily controlled. The game of the elite is to keep us from knowing how powerful we actually are, to keep us believing we are no more powerful than is the reflection in the mirror. If we try to change in the reflection, we can't succeed. Changing the perception of our inner being, individually and collectively, is the only place we can change the world. If we love ourselves and love others, the whole world will change in short order. I'm sending love from my heart to all the people in my sphere of influence, all those I hear about who are victims, as well as the perpetrators, and giving thanks for the love that is warming the hearts of our leaders and others I want to hate. Deepak Chopra says to vision what we want as clearly as possible, as if it already is, don't worry about how it will come about, just keep visioning what your deepest heart wishes. The hidden truth is that we are actually all powerful. We each and collectively are an ocean of consciousness vibrating to different wavelengths, each a droplet within that ocean. Our droplet manifests itself as our own unique universe within the infinite. We can choose to open our hearts and minds to reconnect with all that we are and then we realize that we are not only a droplet in the infinite ocean, we are that ocean. That is our true state. We are infinity. We are all that exists, has existed, and ever will exist.

The EU and the Euro are baby steps on the road to globalization, centralized power, and a microchipped population for efficient control. It’s the elite agenda. If America has the best medicine in the world, why is their medical system a leading cause of death? America would have to sell itself three times over to get out of debt to the bankers. They are the most heavily propagandized, restricted and deluded people of all.

Right CT,right on!!!

I personally believe that David Icke has been set up by the elites to discredit our resistance to their agenda. When you mix accounts of people morphing into lizards and the alleged descent of humanity from aliens, with legitimate concerns about the elitist take-over, then you make the WHOLE THING sound flaky.

An interesting development. It seems Spud was on track a few days ago with his South America idea. The morning news sez that several South American countries are refusing to be part of an American dominated Free Trade of the Americas. Seems like they feel they've been bullied too much in the past to trust the Yanquis now.

It would be muy excelente to form up a trading block with everybody on this side of the water BUT the Umurkins.

I mean, really, what can they expect, after using their precious Globalization to swipe everybody's toys and lunches and water.

Hey Anne, have you read any David Icke? He's got some very compelling research. It's a leap of faith to believe in heaven and hell and immaculate conception, so why not reptilian beings? Dragons and serpents show up in many races' mythology. It helps me understand why the world has come to such a sorry state. I've never lost my faith in people, the more repressed and oppressed they are, good keeps showing up. You find it when you talk to people, not in the media (official) story. Mammals don't have it in them to be so coldly uncaringly cruel as so much of what is and has been going on.

Let'em deep integrate. Just give us proportional representation.

Then see how many neo-con Rethugs get elected in '08.

No? Figures.

Geeze C.T., whatever makes you think that I believe in heaven, hell and the immaculate conception either?! Yes, I have read one of David Icke's books (and seen one of his videos.) As far as the believable stuff went, it was good, but nothing I hadn't heard from other sources.
I simply don't have time to read the rest of his books or to check out his footnotes to see if I think his "research" is valid. I assess what I hear and read by how much sense it makes, and, sorry but the alien/reptile part doesn't ring true for me, though Icke himself may be sincere but insane.

I love that.

"Sincere but insane"

That has to be one of the great book reviews of all time. An expression that good has to have more scope than one review.

It ought to be a defence in law for some of these politicos and contractors when they get caught with their hands in the cookies.

"Sorry melard, it wasn't my fault, I meant well, but I'm jest freakin nerts ya see.

Backing up a bit to that South America idea of Spud's. You know how the American economy became the powerhouse it did during it's second industrialization phase? Henry Ford, who more or less invented it, decided to pay his workers five times the going rate for factory hands.

He figured that since he could make so damn many autos, he'd pretty much have to create a market for them. It worked so well it was used for refrigerators and stoves. Houses. Then other electrical goods, then electronics. The market for the goods was the workers who made them and the merchants the workers bought from. No such class of people existed who had any such pool of disposable income previous to Ford.

It worked like a dream, created feedback loops and began to feed and grow itself like a living thing. The American prosperity of the 20th century. The new idea our leaders have is the opposite. Impoverish the workers, they're not worth anything. Keep all the money for themselves, give the jobs to slave holders in Asia.

Whoops! Gee whiz! Why ever are our markets disappearing?

Canada and South America are perfectly placed to do it again. The same principle should work if we do it the same way. Enrich the people by giving them a big share of the wealth their labor creates, then they will buy your products and enrich you right back. Everything feeds off everything else, and everyone prospers.

Then that prosperity funds the expansions of import-replacing small industries in each country, creates still more waves of the same kind of self- reliant prosperity.

Any reason why not?

Only the Bonesman cabal, etc.

But that was a great post, Bailey. Yer on the money.

So, getting back to Dimitrov's idea - how do we organize a new party - one that has the vision to stand up for Canada and implement some of these ideas? I think people are dying for real leadership in this country. It's a wasteland out there.

I agree with Anne on David Icke.
Most people don't know that many of these anti establishment organizations are being funded by the very people that they are trying to bring down.