Please remember the period preceeding the last election. Run over in your minds the specific vows these weasels made about the things they wouldn't sell, and the things they wouldn't privatize. The things they swore to protect and defend against industry pressure. Then remember what they did.

This whole budget is precisely the same kind of exercise. Tell em what they want to hear, pretend you'll actually do what they tell you to do, then after you get power...Hah!

I propose a slogan for this election. It's an old saying I heard from my old Gran.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Right on Baily! That's what the voters were thinking in 2001. I suppose you will be voting Green!

Its time to send these crooks packing. They will lie and twist the truth but the fundamental truths of what they have done, who they are and what they will do are as plain as the mid-day sun.
1) THEY LIE: It is a matter of RECORD that they LIED about bc rail, the coquihalla hwy, hospital and school closures, attacks on the weak and sick amongst us, protecting the environment, political patronage and corruption, taxpayer funded advertising, gambling expansion etc, etc, etc, etc
How many time time do you need to be slapped across the face before you awaken from your slumber?
2) WHO ARE THEY? An amormphous collection of loosely affiliated, self-interested, intrinisically corrupt special interest and corporate lobbyists/representatves. THEY ARE NOT IN GOVERNMENT TO REPRESENT THE INTERESTS OF THE PEOPLE. THEIR ACTIONS PROVE THIS. THEY REPRESENT MULTINATIONAL CORPORATIONS AND THE BUSINESS SECTOR.
3) WHAT WILL THEY DO? Inspite of receiving it to the tune of over a BILLION DOLLARS in federal equilization payements, they do not believe in a welfare state. (note that most right wing ideoloques, whether republicans or socreds, are the most cynical of HYPOCRITES.)
They will continue to strip the social safety net , built over generations in this province, and replace it with a nightmarish world of Dickensian capitalism. Social Darwinism with a twist however, as a corrupt ruling class/psuedo aristocracy, will rule with impunity and brutality immune the the savage way of live they will have created for the majority.
If you dare to imagine it picture a world where homeless people, victims of simple circumstance, are forced to wander the streets in search of a meager living. Imagine lines of hudreds of people for the most rudimentary of needs, for soup and cloths to protect from the cold and wet.
Imagine a world of perpetual grey skies, fouled by smog and industrial pollution as no standards exist for polluters simply because it interfers with their precious "profit".
Imagine a world where the average person has no access to justice, powerless in the face of the powerful and the wealthy. Where women are reduced to a subjegated class, stripped of rights and human dignity, almost entirely dependent upon the whims of men.
Imagine laws passed simply to punish the poor for the act of being poor, as if their lives were'nt already difficult enough.
Imagine a perpetually underfunded public education system contrasted against an elitist private system, the latter populated with the next generation of george bush and gordon campbell clones. (i mean children actually)
If it did'nt ALREADY EXIST it would be hard to imagine such a place.

That's way too long for anyone to bother reading ws.

perhaps too long for you jean, but most of us are literate past the grade 3 level!!

Only for a small mind is ws' post too long to read.

I think Jean prefers those spoon-fed, little sound bites politicians like to toss around, like New Era, Golden Decade, and Fast Ferries. Who needs details, right?

Budget ? as much creative fiction as last liberal election platform.

Arrogance is not a virtue. To cancel legislative debate on the budget indicates a lack of confidence and doesn't bode well for the future. Too many of our citizens are carrying mortgages, car payments, etc. that they can't possibly afford. Unfortunately there comes a day of reckoning. If we have another snowless winter next year the coastal mountain ski resorts will be in deep trouble. The start of the roller coaster. Why isn't BC Hydro building another large dam in the north to provide more cheap power that we can sell.. secure money in the bank..no vision.

Bob makes a good point- what got Alberta the first debt free province in recent times was the investment they made 20 years ago in the tar sands. We can sell energy in volume too- hydro, compressed gas, oil from offshore. As longas the envrironment impacts are minimized, it will help our kids pay off the debt from the party we've been having. What strikes me about the debate is everyone is forgetting that when the Libs got elected, we had seen the provincial debt double in two short terms during the most favourable economic growth since WW2, all the while having almost the highest taxes in Canada. Lets not forget about the financial impacts 9/11, forest fires, SARS etc. early on before we heap scorn on the "luck" of the Libs with high resource prices helping create today's surpluses. I for one think its a balanced budget, that keeps growing education in a period of decreasing enrolment, and expands health care at a rate over twice that of inflation, while starting to restore other budgets left behind for three years.

You have summed it up well, Will as you did with Bill Tielman with Mike Smyth last night on the radio (great exposure for the Tyee!). . . except it isn't "smart politics".

The general public is now educated and aware; THEY GET IT WHEN THEY SEE IT: unethical, secretive conduct from Campbell and Co. (they aren't ekven Liberals per se, they are the same specific group that surrounded the Zalm as he pursued his personal agenda.) Campbell's and his controlling 'bagmen's' ethics and agenda are far removed from former Premier W.A.C. Bennett's vision and skilled hand at the govt.'s rudder steering the economy for the benefit of ALL British Columbians, never mind from W.A.C.'s political smarts.

Campbell's 'In Crowd' only stand to benefit from their agenda: the Olympic taxpayer funded white elephant venues and tranit projects; the B.C. Rail dirty deal; the vast private Casino expansion now the backbone of our economy; the privatization of B>C> Hydro: the SAME bunch pulling the strings; the same people lining their pockets.

Regardless of political stripe, good people across this province have had enough. They will walk their talk this election.

I read 'ws''s comment and I thought it was great. Perhaps the Tyee would provide some information to its commenters on how to make paragraphs etc. which makes reading much easier.

Hi WS, just read your post. Can you help me with your statement...."Where women are reduced to a subjegated class, stripped of rights and human dignity, almost entirely dependent upon the whims of men." Are you referring to any specific policies that the Libs put into place or is it a mostly general observation??

Thanks for your article, Will.

I'm confused. Has not passing a budget like this ever been done before?

Is it not fraud to set forth a budget and not pass it after waiting until an election.

I know morally it is fraud as is their pretending to be who they are not in the 2001 election.

I am still confused by this and angered at global news which had the business community 'interest group' say how great it is and Sinclair saying it isn't and Randine saying to Keith, well, it is expected that labour would say that and nary a word about the obvious 'up yours' behaviour by these creeps.

I have had it with global who also on their 5:30 news last week in a story about the US privatization of social security included in the story the lie that it was in big trouble as ours was!!!!

If one is at all informed, it is impossible to watch the news without being insulted and annoyed that it is time wasted.

Goodbye global!

I want to have context in my news stories and truth wouldn't hurt either.

I am still baffled about this budget. One thing we can count on though, is the public will get 'screwed' to be crass.

uh David, do the cuts to the family and childrens minstry ring a bell to you?

To David: BRITISH COLUMBIA CRITICIZED BY UNITED NATIONS COMMITTEE (2003) "The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination has issued its Concluding Comments on Canada. It has singled out BC for criticism because of the negative impact on women of cuts to welfare and legal aid, among other things." (eg. The closing of so many women's shelters.)

David, Ms Stevens stated in public that the reason the women's centres lost their funding was because they wouldn't refrain from their ideology. (read feminist)

I saw this on the news with my own eyes. She probably thought she was defending the decision by making it 'their' fault. Or, she just was stupid enough to tell an infrequent truth.

Their philosophy, neo-conservatism, has at it's policy root, an incredible hatred for women.

Albeit, some probably are just rubbing their hands together at all the unpaid, free labour women perform and without which the Capitalist system would crumble. Who do you think does the work of caring for the elderly, the ill and children within a family? Please don't suggest that by doing the dishes it is the man in the family. While many men do pull their weight within the home, more do not and more importantly, it is the policy that is anti-women. Violence against women isn't even thought of as the hate crime it is and what other group of people who had the amount of murders and beatings at the hands of another group would even think that it was not a hate crime.

When you send young women to the street to provide milk for their children, you hate women. When you create a society where a mother has to work three jobs, leaving her children alone, rather than let her receive welfare, that is hatred against women. Bush, when confronted with a woman telling him she had to have three jobs to make ends meet said, that's the American way. Well, it isn't. It is the neo-conartist way. Make a choice!

Dear David.
When I made the noted statement I was referring to the following actions taken by the liberal government: March 31, 2004: Support for 37 womens's centers across B.C. eliminated. August 8, 2001: Pay equity legislation introduced to guarrantee that women receive fair pay repealed. April 28, 2004: Legislation passed to end HEU strike and roll back wages by 15%. June 1, 2002: Child-care subsidies cut by 26 million. November 27, 2002: Government announces 40 percent funding cut for child-care.
In my humble opinion, the above noted actions and there have been others aswell, constitute general policy decisions that have in a profound way, adversely affected the women of B.C..
I know i missed other important milestones, like cuts to legal aid so I urge others out there to fill in the gaps.

Interesting and prickly topic. I have a sister who has been working on her PhD in feminine studies for years now and it does seem that much of her focus is on privilege over rather than parity with men. I have looked for government work in the last couple of years and have actually seen the racism and sexism reversed, with ads looking for women of color and "differently abled", giving short shrift to white men. I guess its needed for a while to reverse past sins, but its still hard to take. I still dont understand "wage parity", i.e., the feds paid out about five billion a couple of years back, yet I defy anyone to show me where a man makes more than a women because of his sex in any of the support staff classifications that were awarded. I appreciate that perspective, though.....although in my volunteer work I have had many opportunities to leaf thru the provincial "red book" of support organizations, and there are a hell of a lot more for women than for man. And don't give me the line that women need them because they are abused only by men- Female/female relationships are far more violence prone that male/female.

In addition, the promise was made to "Moderate the impact of cuts on people by phasing out less vital programs". Some of the "less vital programs" that had been eliminated or had funding significantly reduced were affordable housing, crime prevention and victim assistance, transition to work assistance for people on social assistance,legal aid budget slashed by 40%, eliminated the Ministry of Women`s equality,23% cut to Ministry of Children and Family Development, and on and on and on. If today was any indication of how the public feels, about 100 angry souls were on deck at 6:30AM to welcome Gordo to Kelowna. Rick Thorpe was loudly booed as CHBC news was interviewing his opponent Joyce Procure.

David wants us all to remember that BC's debt doubled during the 1990s, when according to him we had "the most favourable economic growth since WW2, all the while having almost the highest taxes in Canada." He then goes on to forgive his Liberals their big deficits of the 2001 and 2002, saying "Lets not forget about the financial impacts 9/11, forest fires, SARS etc. ...". Strange that David didn't see fit to mention that during the 1990s BC was also contending with major in-migration at the same time that federal transfers for health and education were being slashed, and that major federal transfers are the real reason for Gordon Campbell's surplus.

David also wants us all to know that his "sister ... has been working on her PhD in feminine studies for years now", while David has "actually seen the racism and sexism reversed, with ads looking for women of color and "differently abled", giving short shrift to white men." (Can we take it for granted that by "feminine studies" he means "women's studies"?) Yet David knows very well that since the BC Liberals were elected, any mention of affirmative action or employment equity or equal opportunity has been completely removed from all employment hiring processes and notices of the BC Government and its agencies.

David, perhaps you should go and have a discussion with your sister about feminine studies, privilage and or rights, because you appear a bit confused. Or is it that you are just trying to confuse an issue here rather than provide rational discussion? Your comments about Alberta's investments sound as though some clown named Binette is your source of information. If you had been in Alberta more than 20 years ago you would understand how silly your comment is. Alberta governments have been acting as whores for the U.S. controlled oil industry since the early '50s. Even Saudi Arabia has more self-respect and it shows because that world-class ass-kisser demands and gets better royalties from the U.S. for its oil than does Alberta. And please, tell me more about all the massive royalites Alberta is already reaping from the oil sands project? I would suggest you're a bit ahead of yourself there.

To make parargraphs, at the end of your sentence put < then p then > but close together and hit enter.

The fact that there is even a need for something called "Women's studies" (What is everything else?) says something.

David, please elaborate on "female/female relationships are more violence-prone than male/male"... really, I'm curious.

This article appearing under the heading of "Views" is appropriate. One fact that seems to have been overlooked in the article is the issue of timing. With the fixed election date in May any government is in a bit of a quandry as to whether to introduce a budget that almost certainly be overturned if the incumbent party loses the election.

As has been stated elsewhere (Tyee?) setting a fixed election date for May was probably a mistake. A fixed election date in the fall would have been a wiser choice.

David, I know you are angry. Anger from those who enjoyed power before is partly why neo-conservatism is successful right now. We are experiencing a huge backlash. But, you need to be careful you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I think equal opportunity ought to be done in percentages. For example if a certain percent of people are of a certain background that percent ought to be reflected in hiring. With a formula built in for places where employee turnover doesn't reflect population growth. >p>

I agree that by saying a certain group ie white males have enjoyed privilage and therefore we are going to discriminate against them, does not make a just society. And, some of those policies and groups also are full of hate. I believe it serves noone to make anyone a second class member of society.

However, there has been and is, a huge injustice. Not that long ago a women couldn't even get a morgage without the permission of her father or husband. This was in the 60's!

There have to be justice agreements that do not disenfranchise a group out of an attempt to right an injustice, or frankly, in some cases, revenge.

But, again, women are as the saying goes, waitresses in the banquet of life. And, that has to change. We have to think in a new paradigm or we will blow ourselves off the face of this earth. Old ideas such as war, laissez faire capitalism, racism and sexism (yes it exists towards white men too) have to be allowed a quick death and we must create a new future.

Cutting off our noses to spite our faces, only hurts our face and lets some get very rich off the back of others.

By the way, it is true, there is a problem in some relationships among gay women, but no where near male/female.

Not to minimize physical violence, but do you not think that these policies are violent?

(thanks for the paragraph tip - if my typos will allow for it! lol)

To clarify - when I say some 'groups' have hatred, I am speaking of literal groups, NOT groups as in people from different cultural and racial backgrounds than myself.

I have no faith in the majority of our citizens, they will vote this crappy government back in. I believe that North American society has a long way to fall before people wake up to this neo-con pro big money/big business agenda. I'm not saying vote for the NDP, although I probably will, but I am very pessimistic. I think that people are totally blind to the immorality of this regime, Tyee readers of course are mostly excepted from this.

Thanks for another great column Will! Keep 'em coming.

I'm sure these idiots will get in again, voters in general are pretty stupid. This government reminds me of corrupt 3rd world dictatorships where votes are bought with bags of rice and bribes. The Liberals know it works over there and it works here. Butterup the voters give them some goodies then take it away after the election. Welcome to the Banana Republic of BC.

There never was a structural deficit in 2001, it was part of the strategy to make the public believe the sky was falling then just before the election, "its a miracle we saved BC" The voters are being played like "dumb asses" and unfortunately it usually works.

Well there you have it: The BC liars are refusing to pass this budget because they know damn well that if they get reelected they will have to spend a month in the legislature reversing most of it. A reminder for those simple enough to need it, that the BC liberals in 2001 campaigned on tax breaks for the lowest two income brackets in BC only. Nothing about the 25% taxcut for the wealthy that's turned BC into a federal welfare basket case until the day after the election, nothing anbout attacks on the poor, the disabled, women and seniors, nothing about giving away BC to psychopathic american corporations like Maximus, who have faced criminal charges of stealing benefits from the disabled. There were a few things said about BC Rail, however like "I will not sell BC rail," and there was also that famous line "I do not believe in tearing up contracts..." Really, the list of bloody broken promises, lies, half-truths, distortions and understatements followed by hair-splitting neoliberal newspeak as pathetic justifications, is too long and exhaustive, and too beyond even the credibility of an eight year old to even begin to go into here.

David, I see your pose as the voice of moderation is becoming increasingly cracked and threadbare. I believe I already rebutted you on the NDP's debt record, far less than the 17 billion you claim, which is no more than trick math in any case, making generous use of the "structural deficit," a deficit that never was, except in the "mind" of Mr Collins, (I'm speaking loosely here) and perhaps the cranium of the Easter Bunny. As for your pathetic resentment towards both women, and your sister, and her "feminine" studies, try this on for size: the BC "liberals' have cut $100 a month from the food budget of children of single welfare mothers in BC, a cut that continued when the news of the upcoming federal welfare money, had been posted on the an easily accessible federal budget site for months. Mr Collins claimed "he didn't know," rendering a verdict on both his honesty and his competence simultaneously. Perhaps you could tell us all what the crime of these innocent children was. Although I'm sure you could care less, the "taxcuts" announced for the poor, amount to $340 a year at best, a small pathetic fraction of the damage done by user fees, the gutting of rent controls, etc, etc. There are two types of people that wil be voting for the BC liars in the next election: over priveleged greedy liars, and those who are simply not very bright.

Binette, I'll wait until debate on this thread is exhausted before I humiliate you again. Drink lots, you're going to need it...

I'm afraid I find it difficult to agree with people who argue that anyone in British Columbia who doesn't vote for the NDP is immoral. That attitude smacks more of the good Rev. Gerry Falwell than Tommy Douglas.

It is also arrogant beyond belief. At best, the NDP can count on the support of approximately 40% of voters. Holding 60% of British Colubmians in that kind of contempt is, well, contemptible.

Geek. I too agree that North American Democracy is in tatters.

There is no arguing that many in our province will not hit the voting booths and still many will hit the voting booths lacking the knowledge that will enable them to make the right decision in choosing the political party that will best represent them - heck, after taking the kids to soccer practice, walking the dog, pluggin' into Desperate Housewives or ball/puck games, shopping, cooking, sleeping, there isn't a lot of time for folks to sit down and sort through the messy details of politics. Adding to the sorry state are the ultra bias, ultra sensored newspapers, lining doorsteps and bus-stops in British Columbia which people pick up and gobble up like its "news". Papers that have a reputation of meddling with elections, when and where it counts, to fulfill minority agendas.

I too agree also that here, in the virtual halls of the Tyee, are very bright and very capable folks, who can be trusted, that have a hawkish eye on the Public's best interest; types who share the very same spirit found inside the movers and shakers that fought for decent things we enjoy today that we didn't 100 years ago.

There are uninspired leaders everywhere; ones who don't see the immense public responsibility attached to their position. And minions who have a price.

Why not we subject this budget to just a little analysis. Prior to doing this let us recall that the BC Liberals had record breaking deficits for the past several years...which has increased the long term debt of the province. They announce 1.74 billion dollar expected surplus in the coming year. Lets, ask the question, how much of this is due to neo-liberal economics applie to the province? Right off the top, there is about $1 billion in equalization payment from the Federal Government, because matters are 'so booming' in our economy...that we still are considered an have not province deserving of equalization payments. Doesn't that fact alone make you re-think the Liberal ad campaign and their puffery respecting our economy. Then there are large transfer payments from the Federal government in the health and education sectors - no merit can be claimed by the BC Liberals on that. Then we have the revenues from the home and commercial construction sectors, largely because interest rates are the lowest in about 50 years - once again no merit to the BC Liberals neo-con economics. Then we have the high resource revenues which are due not to BC Liberal neo-con policy, but because of world commodity prices and demand. Then, lets not forget to count the extra revenues from increased BC Medical premiums and the decreased pay-outs due to the delisting of many previously paid services, eye care, medical massage, podiatry, etc. Then expanded gambling revenus - remember when " they" were against gambling expansion, then more monies from the Property Transfer tax - once again related to home construction. Then with respect to increased 'tourism" - due to our looney versus the Euro, and the fact that Canada is perceived as a 'safe' destination, more Americans and Europeans are coming here..since it is a "safe" destination. --no merit to the BC Liberals either. Of course, we should not forget the increased revenues from massive raw log exports - a stupid economic strategy if I ever saw one.

Most importantly, a good portion of that surplus (perhaps $700 million or so) is the result of massive cut-backs and/or closures of schools, hospitals, emergency care facilities, women's centres, the slashing of the civil service by many thousands of people, etc. etc. ...and reduced pay-outs to universities and colleges due to massive tuition increases,

So, in my estimation the BC Liberals and their economic strategy is not the cause of the supposed "boom'" in the BC economy. Rather the 'business cycle" in terms of construction and commodity prices just happens to have favored BC during this last two or years. The surplus, in my view is the result of the massive cut-backs and off-loading on the backs of many segments of the population, and the increased user fees in a variety of sectors.

Coming soon are the Olympic infrastructure, and transportation infrastructure expenditures, and most of those monies will again come from the Federal government.

I could continue..but perhaps others may want to put on their 'thinking caps" and scrutinize this Golden decade Fiberal neo-con "BS" budget. In my view, the Fiberals have been grossly incompetent with respect to the management of our economy--and but for the items mentioned. I just hope the electorate doesn't fall for that "soup" again!

I said anyone who votes for Gordon Campbell is either immoral or deluded Groovy Pippin. Since the NDP is the only party with a realistic chance of defeating Campbell, obviously they're the only party worth voting for. And I'm sorry, but the massive, uncampaigned-on 25% taxcut for the wealthy used to manufacture an artificial crisis, that was in turn used as a pathetic excuse to assault vulnerable, innocent people, that has also turned BC into a have-not province, still bears a stench palpable through a mile square block of ice. Face it, grooveypippin, your taxcut is tainted money. No other argument is either possible or morally justifiable.

You have it backwards, GroovyPimpin':

Gordon Campbell is Gerry Falwell. Try listening to his inane cheerleading.

It is also arrogant beyond belief. At best, the BC Liberals can count on the support of approximately 38% of voters. Holding 62% of British Colubmians in that kind of contempt is, well, contemptible.

Perhaps another 4 years would be good for the Liberals and ultimately for BC-ers - but not for the reasons you're assuming. If Gordo wins this May, BC will have the opportunity to flourish _or not_ under this and future budgets.

There would be no better lesson. In Ontario, the Provincial Tories, regardless of constantly braying that were sound fiscal managers, left a smokin' $4.5 billion deficit - illegal, too, according to law the Tories themselves enacted. For 8 long years, they ruled with smoke-and-mirror accounting, firing public servants and replacing them with expensive consultant friends, cutting and privatising Ontario. It was only after they lost to the Liberals in 2003 that Ontario really learned how completely the Provincial Tories had been screwing them.

Perhaps BC needs this, too. Seeing Gordon Campbell lose in humiliation 4 or 5 years from now would be sweeter than seeing him win or lose by a whisker in May. He could make no excuses.

Good Story. I feel I need to get up to speed on sneaky politicking when I really want to debate the issues. I wish your story described how a budget is normally passed. Can a government set a date to pass it whenever they want? Do they need to pass it before a certain date? Historically, how many months after releasing a budget before one is passed?

You can read the transcript of the Budget estimates debate here. (Its a bit sad to see that our society can't create a democratic system based on respect. This one encourages and rewards mindless, grade school dribble.

http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/hansard/37th6th/h50216p-blues.htm

Peter Dimitrov, I love reading your comments; you always say a lot. Might I ask you, though, to consider using a few simple HTML tags to format your text a bit. You can just put them right in the comment field as you type.

Start paragraphs by putting this <p> before the first word of your paragraph.

End paragraphs by putting this </p> after the last word of your paragraph.

Using <p> and </p> will force a one-line break. If you would rather that the following text
start right below, use this <br>

Thanks,

<Rob out>

I accidentally ommitted my name from my post above. So I just want to reiterate the two basic points. First, Campbell's surplus results from Federal transfers, equalization in other words. Second, the BC Liberals have demolished the NDP's policy of employment equity in provincial hiring, and no longer include even a notice to the effect of "equal opportunity" on government job postings.

Contumely, 2/17/2005 12:41:30 AM, writes:

You have it backwards, GroovyPimpin':

Gordon Campbell is Gerry Falwell. Try listening to his inane cheerleading.

It is also arrogant beyond belief. At best, the BC Liberals can count on the support of approximately 38% of voters. Holding 62% of British Colubmians in that kind of contempt is, well, contemptible.

Nice try. You are deliberately avoiding my point. I have no problem with acknowledging the existence of people with a different outlook than mine. While I hope the BC Liberals are re-elected, I don't believe that people who intend to vote New Democrat are morally or intellectually inferior to me.

Polls in the this province are neck and neck. As of today, there are about as many people who intend to vote BC Liberal as NDP. The extremity of your hostility towards those who support the BC Liberals really has no place in a democratic society. It's the kind of hardline nonsense you hear spewed by irish/catholics in Northern Ireland or isrealis/palestinians.

Not the way I'd like to see political discourse go in British Columbia.

“BC Liberals had record breaking deficits for the past several years” Actually Peter the Liberals have managed more balanced budgets in 4 years than the NDP managed in 10. You cannot bring up any debt argument if you’re a NDP supporter. Why is it that external factors that help the economy (interest rates, commodity prices) are the reason for the Liberals success, yet external factors that hurt the economy (stock market crash,911, weak US economy, sars, softwood, mad cow, rising dollar) have no effect on the performance of the economy. Explain this point to me please, I’m really interested in hearing your response.

Peter please tell me what’s wrong with getting more money from the Federal Government? Maybe the Liberals do have something to do with getting more of our tax dollars back from the federal government. The NDP couldn’t so maybe, just maybe that is a strength of the Liberals.

Since solving all problems is as easy as adding more money I would like you to explain this to me as well Peter. The government has increased funding for health care, yet waiting list have gone up. Is adding more funding still the answer? How much of our budget should it take up 65%?

Nicole the morally superior, and always right NDP tabled a budget then called an election the next day, There wasn’t any discussion about it. Also the Liberals tried to move the fixed date into the fall so the budget could be passed and the auditor generals report of the previous year could be seen, but the NDP jumped all over them for that and said they couldn’t move the date. So you didn’t want the date moved, then when there wasn’t time to properly go over the budget you complain. Classic. Also Hombre please tell me how the NDP’s debt was considerably less than 17 million.

The Golden Decade. Probably filled with privatized auto insurance. Look to double premiums coming your way very soon. Then, privatize the administration and delivery of the entire public school system. Give the contracts to the Americans to run them for us. Offshore oil. Big and bigger money screwing your westcoast shorelines. Many more wonderful possibilities await us.

If you want your spare Gold to go to the rich and powerful, you can simply vote for the Libs in May.

JIm, the deficits that the NDP had to balance were created by the BC Liberals under their previous name (Social Credit). The BC LIberals created the biggest deficit in history in 2001 with their tax cut to the wealthy. Try finding out the truth rather than repeating the BC Liberal lies.

hombre, 2/16/2005 9:57:51 PM, writes:" Binette, I'll wait until debate on this thread is exhausted before I humiliate you again. Drink lots, you're going to need it..."

Go ahead Hombre (Louie) lick my ass!

Please everyone keep your comments short and precise. Thank you..

Jim, the BC liberals have one balanced budget only, as everyone knows except liars like yourself. That budget is balanced because of federal welfare money, fire sales on crown corporations and blind good luck reegarding natural resource prices. I thought you didn't LIKE welfare, jim. And now the "liberals," (my god, what an extravagant joke, the word liberal is when applied to these backstabbing liars) plan # billion more in new debt. I see you on Canwest all the time, spreading such lies as BC Rail was a money loser, when it averaged $80 million in profits a year, 19 years out of the last twenty. Your kind has no honor, no compassion and no courage. All you ever do is hide behind lies.

And Groovey pimpin', detail for us all the sacrifices you made in the new era. Did your kids grow hungry? Were you forced to work three jobs just to survive? Did you have to choose between medicine you needed and eating? I could go on, but that would assume compassion on your part.

Once again the 17 billion dollar ndp debt figure is based on the myth of the structural deficit, money that was never spent, because the NDP were not reelected in 2001. I wish the TYee would let me tell "liberal" supporters, what I really think of them and their tainted money... I would like to see The Tyee run an article about the real NDP debt and about the fairy tale of the structural deficit, so this piece of rightwing utter bs could be put to rest for good. And by the way ,jim, the BC liars shifted crown corporation supported debt, directly to taxpayer supported debt at the fastest rate in BC history, as Mr McMartin showed in another article.

That should read "the liberals plan 3 billion more in new debt over the next three years..." in the first paragraph above.

"New Era"... "Golden Decade"... who dreams up this stuff? Do they actually think anyone buys it? Especially when they're too afraid to endure a full Question Period or debate the Estimates with Jenny, Joy and Mr.new guy?

We know that everyone who judges government solely through the lens of business, taxes and dollars will vote for them no matter what their failures. They know as well as we do that all the hype about the miraculous economic turn-around is pure baloney but they'll defend Gordo & co to the last because they know that under the NDP they'll have to compete with labour and social services at the public trough.

p.s. Thanks for the HTML formatting tips. It's nice to have paragraphs, especially when you've got a lot to say!

Keep it up, jean, it's nice to see you do my work for me. You seem very obsessed with oral anal contact. Most of the rest of us tend to find the subject a little boring. I'm sure there are all kinds of bulletin boards in cyber space where you could fullfill your obvious fetish: there you would not be so obviously and hopelessly out of your DEPTH, so as to speak, as you are here...

groovypippin, since what I wrote was a mirror image of what you wrote, how could you be telling me that my little posting was hostile? The irony in your post was there to use like "a duck on a pond".

groovypippin, since what I wrote was a mirror image of what you wrote, how could you be telling me that my little posting was hostile? The irony in your post was there to use like "a duck on a pond".

May I attempt a reply to something JIm said yesterday?

He wrote: "Since solving all problems is as easy as adding more money I would like you to explain this to me as well Peter. The government has increased funding for health care, yet waiting list have gone up. Is adding more funding still the answer?"

Since coming to office, the Liberal Majority has fired the heart and core of our health care system. All the people who do all the care. They belonged to unions, you see, and are therefore hated and feared by the neoconservatives generally, and their union supported the opposition, which ticked the Liberals off specifically.

Health care is not done by buildings. Not done by machines, even very high-tech expensive ones. It's done by trained and experienced teams of workers, who know each other, know their jobs, know their tools and workspace and click together everyday to do what the spinners call 'delivering healthcare'. The Libs fired 'em. As many as they could. Wrecked the teams, trashed the people who knew how to do the job and run the obsolete and insufficient equipment and handed their jobs to their contributors.

I'm not talking about Doctors or RNs. These have become the expert supervisors. The doctors breeze in, do the exam, make a pronouncement and order a course of treatment. Maybe write a perscription. Very important what they do, but they order work, they don't deliver it. Then they breeze out to their next pronouncement. I'm not complaining, they have to see and pronounce on so many patients each day that such divisions of labour are crucial to our understaffed system. They pronounce to an RN, who writes the orders and charts them.

The work itself, the feeding and toileting, bathing, cleaning, transporting, performing tests, reporting on the results, administering the ordered treatments, calming and reassuring patients and families, preventing infections and contagons from spreading, that's now done by people who are only there because it pays a buck or two better than McDonalds. Not really an experienced and well trained team any more, hmm?

It doesn't matter how much you throw, if you're throwing it down the toilet. I'd love to see a comparison of the amounts of 'increases in spending' by these Libs, and the profits taken out of the system and probably out of BC, by the companies they've hired to replace their victims. I'd settle for only those companies who also contributed to their campaigns and the party

The Liberals are ideolgically comitted to a private for profit health care system run by their friends. They have to wreck the fine system we have first, in order to justify the transfer of such a huge chunk of tax money into private hands.

Virk and Basi.

Basi and Virk.

Campbell's involved.

He's also a jerk.

still testing

I just want to say, I think this "Golden Decade" is going to be great guns...

Bailey you didn't really answer anything. How you can say doctors and nurses are the least valuable members of the Health Care system is beyond me. Also this notion of business taking profits and running is ludicrous. Ask any successful entrepreneur what they do with profits. They reinvest the profits into the company in order for the business to grow and provide more jobs. You may not believe this, but it shows you how little you really know about business and all you rely on is fallacies perpetuated in part by these message boards

Overpaying landscapers, kitchen staff, and cleaning crews does not shorten the waiting list. The real problem with the HEU is it lumps skilled professionals with untrained workers. It's the inherent flaw with unions. In order to bring the worst worker up to the level of the best and most trained worker the best highly trained worker gets shafted. Unions work to protect the weakest worker and provide absolutely no benefit to the best worker. In a sense the X-ray technician is getting shafted by the line cook. You may not agree with my overall views but in this case there is no way you can say im wrong. Essentially your penalized for educating yourself.

I would also like the Tyee to run an article on the real NDP debt, but The Tyee only reports news that is unfavorable to the Liberals or favorable to the NDP so that's not going to happen. The Liberals will have some debt but we will actually get some badly needed infrastructure out of it unlike the NDP who ignored our declining infrastructure for ten years.

Using your logic Sue the NDP is the root of all the Liberals problem. And no I didn't have to work three jobs because I, gasp, have employable skills and didn't rely on the government to support me. If I loose my job tomorrow I’m confidant I could find another one with similar pay with a week or two, you cannot say that about most public sector workers and that's the problem.

The Liberals have only themselves to blame. My logic does not lead to your conclusion. Try looking beyond your nose and read something about what you are talking about. SO WHAT that you have a skill? Does that mean that anyone who is not you does not have the right to earn a decent salary?

The BC Liberals have shrunk the economy. GDP growth was higher under the NDP. JIm, you have no clue what you are talking about. Like under George W, and Ronald Reagan, neo-conservative governments create massive deficit problems. The record equalization payments to BC from Ottawa are the indication that the BC Liberals have done a terrible job and could not manage the budget of a small preschool.

Indeed, you do have a skill, Jim, but crawling up Gordon Liar's butt is not really much in demand, for the competition is so intense from so many other mindless cretins such as yourself, who are sure that everyone's stealing from them but the rich. Do you really think...no, let me rephrase that, do you really, sincerely believe that loyal people can be maintained in hospitals to wade through human bodily waste, to deal with psychotics and drug overdoses for $10 an hour, when a job as a waiter or waitress with tips is a step up? You only want the race to the bottom, because you think you won't be hurt by it. I had a millionaire cousin in the states who had the best privatized medical coverage available. He died of an avoidable medical error in a U.S. hospital, where under the wisdom of the market place, medical errors are ten times as common as they are in Canada.

Just read a buzz in a local weekly that Providence "Healthcare," has started to petition the BC liars to move Saint Paul's hospital from downtown to east vancouver. Boy, I bet Campbell's owners are salivating at the possibility of all that space up for condos and highrises. Yet one more reason to throw these corrupt, backstabbing child-assaulting psychopaths back into the gutter they crawled out of next May 17.

In a nutshell you should need some skills to get paid well. Contumley, yes you are correct sort of. For two years the NDP did have high growth, but for 8 we averaged under the national average. So 2 good, which I may say was during the largest economic boom in history, and 8 bad also during generally good times for everywhere else but BC. BC averaged 2.5% growth during the 90's, if you take out the 1 year anomalies your left with a pretty bleak picture. For the First three years after taking over from the Socreds the NDP constantly beat the national average, using Sue logic the Socreds are to blame for those positive economic times.. It’s too bad for the next seven years we beat the national average once, and fell way below it many times. Even during the boom years your talking about we fell well below the average. When looking at facts in a vacuum it's easy to criticize but actually knowing the facts and the context of those facts is a whole different story. You don't really know anything so you pull out a few facts out of context and try and act like you have a clue of what’s going on.

Thanks Hombre I have never heard of someone dying in a hospital before, must of been because it was private. Please back up this 10 times claim please. And if what you say is true, that they can't keep people for $10 they will start paying more. That’s called market forces, this is exactly what’s happening in Alberta right now. Companies have had to raise there wage rates dramatically to make up for the scarcity in labor. Actually hombre you want the race to the bottom I would rather see a race to the top. I want people to get educated and trained so they can find better jobs, you want to drag the educated and skilled to the bottom so everyone can be equal. I don’t want unions telling me what my limitations are. I know I will be hurt by the race to the bottom that’s why I’m not voting for the NDP.

Take a hypothetical society comprised of 10 individuals each earning 30000 a year.
Now take this society and subject it to gordon campbells leadership and watch what happens to the distribution of wealth. Thats right, now we have 9 individuals earning 10000 and one, probably a golfing partner of the premier, earning 210,000 a year. Ah it truly is going to be a "golden decade". What they did'nt tell us is that not only are most of us not invited, but we get to foot the bill. That deal is so f...in good it sells itself!!
p.s.- i dont think a laborer should earn the same as a brain surgeon. i also dont think gordo's cousin in prince george should have walked with 400,000 of our money for doing sweet f all. i dont think that gordos campaign contributors should be awarded billion dollar publicly financed sweet heart deals for white elephant useless mega-projects. Hmm i wonder what senior executives in snf lavalin get paid nowadays? Oh well who cares, its off to whistler on the billion dollar highway, to play nicklaus north, drink 1000 bottles of wine and partake in a few orgies.

Dear JIm; I don't wish you ill, but may you someday land in hospital for a week or two. Then see who cares for you. Who washes between your toes and feeds you that stuff they buy preground these days. Who comes when you cry out in pain or fear. Who takes you to the toilet and holds you up while you use it. Who brings your meds and changes your jammies for you.

I never said Doctors and RNs are not important. I said they are the experts who diagnose and design appropriate treatments, and then arrange for somebody to do them. There are exceptions of course. Surgeons don't assign somebody else to do their work, obviously. But after your surgery, while you rest and heal, who will deliver your health care JIm?

Please try to read more carefully. Oh, and by the way? It's not a business. You can't advertize for more people to choose to be in Hospital so you can hire more lackeys. I mean please give it a little thought, will you?

The profit part of the payouts to these foreign political contributors is removed from the system. It's gone. There's NO saving to the taxpayer. There's NO improvement to the quality of service. Quite the contrary.

sorry, please a $ after 1000 in my entry above.
my apologies

Please JIm, tell me what Crown Corp debt in BC is now. Just keep it simple and explain how much more debt this province is responsible for now compared to in 2001.

Forget the smoke and mirrors BS noted in the budget, which, if you have an honest bone in your body, you will acknowledge is but a cheap carnaval flag blowing in the wind until election day.

Now, unless you are a hospital administrator or some junior manager with a grudge, why would a union such as the HEU give a hoot what your limitations are?

Yes, unions are there for the weakest members because the weakest members are usually the workers targeted by grudgeful managers who are just smart enough to know they have climbed as high as they will ever go in the rat race, but hold a real hate for those who see more to life than ass-kissing for a paycheque.

By the way, in a province where the government, supported by a puppet judiciary, rips up contracts reached through good-faith bargaining, you comments about "market forces" are a sick fucking joke JIm.

The joke carries over to Alberta as well, where the government is now engaged in yet another scam to alter working conditions for construction workers in the tar sands industry because industry doesn't like the impact of your "market forces."

What gives with all these right-wing politicians shitting all over your "market forces" theory JIm?

Thanks for the chuckle above, 'testing'.

Rob, I'm not sure about your suggestion that Campbell will win/lose "by a Whisker" . . . Consider the the landslide he won in the last election; consider the widespread feelings of betrayal by thousands of people directly affected across the political landscape by his actions in govt.

Campbell raised hopes then trashed his promises that were the basis of his election. Is it not true that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction? the swinging pendulum of life can bring dramatic change. Now, please consider which way the pendulum will swing in May 2005.

. . . and further to your comment, allan, about Crown Corps: What is really going on behind closed doors in these bureaucracies that Campbell has removed from public scrutiny? Which pet projects in the Campbell 'soup' are being facilitated by senior bureaucrats within these hidden walls and at what cost to taxpayers?

You are absolutely right about the "puppet judiciary" in bed with the AG Ministry: you pat my back and I'll scratch yours.

I hear your anger, allan, and you like so many us, have a right to be angry at Campbell's betrayal.

Tip on editing: if you click 'refresh' after you have submitted your comment, you will see it immediately.

Good Job Allan get angry. The weakest workers are the ones that do NO WORK, show up late and do an overall terrible job. Why should they keep their job?

Yes the Liberals have increased the debt by about 4 billion, add another 3 lets say over the next 4 years and that’s 7 billion compared to 17 billion in debt by the NDP. What does the NDP have to show for their massive debt? It's kind of like going into debt to pay for the new pair of jeans you "need" to buy once a week compared to going into debt to pay for a house.

Unions artificially inflating wages has nothing to do with market forces Allan I’m sorry. You don't have to ass kiss for a good pay cheque there is this thing called hard work. I know it went out of style in the union world a while ago but believe it or not it's still exists in the private sector.

Why is the budget BS because they paid for the Social programs and increases in spending through growing our economy instead of growing our debt? Is it BS because they have respect for the taxpayers dollar? Or is it BS because Jinny Sims, George Haymen, and Jim Sinclair say so? Or is it you can’t really believe that a government can be both fiscally and socially responsible?

Bailey if a private hospital can provide a better service for a lower price why not? Like I say for the most part they do deserve good pay, but like I also said when you lump the deserving with the undeserving you get a real problem. A good problem for the unskilled and a bad problem for the skilled. Why is someone a lackey if they're not in a union? Why are only union members qualified to work in hospitals? Why do we have to waste as much money as possible to deliver health care? Give it a little thought will you.

Ws, if you don't want a government to hand out sweet hart deals to its contributors then the NDP is not the right party for you. The Liberals are investing in infrastructure that will last hundreds of years, not flash in pan make work projects the NDP set up for their union supporters. Your scenario is exactly what you said, hypothetical, and something that only happens in the ideological dream world of the TheTyee.ca.

anyway we will never agree. One last question though. Why should a long shoreman make the same as a doctor?

“Why is the budget BS because they paid for the Social programs and increases in spending through growing our economy instead of growing our debt?” Perhaps it’s the cynic in me, but I would say that they paid for the social program and increases in spending because of equalization payments and because we’re a few short months before an election.

”Is it BS because they have respect for the taxpayers dollar?” Are you kidding me? Respect for taxpayers dollars? How is it respect when they give the majority of the citizenry a pittance of a tax cut only to increase service fees in everything from MSP premiums to tuition? I hardly call that respect.

”Or is it you can’t really believe that a government can be both fiscally and socially responsible?” That’s the best one you’ve offered yet JIm. This gov’t has been everything but socially responsible. How is a decimated women’s and children’s ministry responsible? How is it responsible to force physically and mentally challenged individuals to go through humiliating processes in order to receive benefits?

”Why are only union members qualified to work in hospitals?” Typically because they’ve received the proper training and will receive a fair wage (not to mention the Tax$$ that won’t get pumped into the American owned and operated private service providers.

Jim I believe that you are one of those people who simply breaks out in hives whenever the word union is mentioned. Why do you feel that unions serve no purpose? How did you become so jaded with respect to unions? Why is it that you must insist that union labourers are lazy good for nothings? You’ve accused us of living in ideological dream worlds and instructing Bailey to give your oh so clever ramblings a little thought, yet you seem to hang on to every cliché coming out of the great canwest fiction publication machine.

Jim there are many in unions who work hard. You seem to think that all union members are lazy and do nothing all day. Ferries manage to cross the straight many times a day, safely I might add. Schools educate children daily. Teachers show up for work all the time. Private does not automatically mean hard work. We had an experience with a carpenter working on our house. This guy was so useless. He could never keep up with a union carpenter. His math skills were non-existant. His mouth would never stop bashing unions. What a joke. This guy would never be accepted into a union, even if he wanted. In my experience, unions build better. You get what you pay for Jim. Nowadays $10.00 hour is peanuts and not enough for a cleaner in a hospital or anywhere. Decent wages for decent citizens. Please tell me, who exactly is undeserving??

Good points, Michael.

Jim, I notice you are spending a lot of time and effort to participate in what you brand "the ideological dream world of TheTyee.ca" so I guess you are referring to yourself. Or perhaps you are living in your own "ideological dream world"; Instead grasp reality and check out the company's individuals that will directly benefit in the billions of taxpayers dollars that are funnelled into so-called "infrastructure" projects. Instead of ranting, connect the dots and you will blush.

You really aren't paying attention at all, are you? That's $4 Billion a YEAR. This year. Another $4 Billion last year, etc more or less. Do please try to read more carefully. Also please take note- saying what you wish doesn't make it so. Private hospitals are nearly twice as expensive as the ones we used to have. If you factor in the costs of the private insurance industry, they're more in the range of multiples of that. Simple arithmetic proves your claims are just made-up nonsense.

I need a new paragraph to mention your little quote about what you deserve. You wrote " when you lump the deserving with the undeserving you get a real problem. " Who decides what a person deserves? The implication that it's you who sets the worth of a person, and that the ones you think undeserving will get nothing is despicable on it's face. God grant you never get what YOU deserve.

Unfortunately, he`s been getting what he deserves for the last 3+ years. The bad part is the rest of us have had to have it too.

hombre, 2/17/2005 9:50:31 AM, writes: "Keep it up, jean, it's nice to see you do my work for me. You seem very obsessed with oral anal contact."

Not at all Hombre (Louie). I just like to watch!

Dear "Testing" ...

I'd sure like to know what you know, and what you meant, and what prompted you to write such a teaser as this:

Virk and Basi.

Basi and Virk.

Campbell's involved.

He's also a jerk.

still testing

Yes. I heard that too. A very intriguing litte ditty. Any more?

JIm, those figures you tossed out are bs. You know that, I know that and it looks like most others here at Tyee know that.

Please complete my request. What's the increased debt that your Lib. buds have slipped over into the Crown Corps for safe hiding. Those are the big numbers neither you, nor the drunk want paraded out over the next three months.

Let's be real here fellow, the NDP left a balanced budget two years in a row with several billion in surplus when the drunk's team took over and gave most of it away to his wealthy supporters.

You really gotta give up relying on the Vancouver Sun headlines for your news JIm.

But the thing I really must repond to is your inane comment "unions artificially inflating wages has nothing to do with market forces."

Really JIm?

What's it take to get included in the market forces, as you put it, being a greedy speculator, living off your daddy's wealth or beating the shit out of poorly paid workers who have no union protection?

Given your superior grasp of economics and nice paycheques, perhaps you can enlighten me on one aspect of the provincial budget that simply defies logic JIm.

Why would a finance minister who has had to act as the drunk's version of Ebineezer Scrooge for the past three budgets suddenly cut and run when finally, according to his somewhat shaky replacement, the province is back in the money?

Collins was drawing down $100,000+ as finance minister, had the opportunity of a lifetime to show the world how fiscally astute he is with this latest budget, yet he bolts and hires on as a sky jockey for some some rickety airline operating with equipment that has seen more time in bankruptcy proceedings than in the air, where he likely saw his income cut in half as well.

Sounds like a case of panic far more than an astute, logical or fiscally sound move. Any idea what might have prompted that still puzzling departure?

BTW, there's a nice, short, little ditty above you might want to read.

Hey, we have a great debate going here, and Jim, your questions to me have been answered many times over may I suggest.

What is on the line in this election - is NOT the past NDP record - the electorate has already deliberated and executed a severe judgment in that regard.

What is on the line now in the upcoming election is precisely: Gordon Campbell and the BC Liberal record of the past four years; and secondly, regardless of that record, whether he and his cronies should be ever trusted again.

In my view, essential to evaluating the BC Liberal economic record, is to set aside those positive 'revenue generating events' for which the BC Liberal team did not cause by application of their right wing neo-liberal economic ideology.

An ideology that directed the mean-spirited cuts to many social programs, gutted the social and economic fabric of many small towns and rual regions of BC; caused off-loading of costs through imposition of numerous user fees, and resulted in the sell-off and/or privatization of public assets under circumstances that are less than apparent to the electorate.

So in my view, setting aside the issue of 'trust' for the moment, citizens must decide whether they support a continuation of the BC Liberal neo-liberal economic agenda in the next four years.

In that regard Campbell's recent 'electoral' conduct announcing $777 million funding over the next three years to Economic Development Initiatives, appears that he may be diverging from the neo-liberal agenda, and is 'warming up' to the idea that government investments in key sectors and regions may indeed spur economic growth while paying better political dividends then the continued application of neo-liberal policies.

I just hope those promises are kept, but more so rather than using the powers of the state to expand and reproduce the provincial capitalistic economy, with more capitalistic firms or richer 'fat cat corporations' where minority shareholders take all the benefits, and workers and communities again get shafted--- there may be opportunity here for community controlled corporations and co-operatives to go after some of those monies. They indeed should receive equal treatment, well my view is, "preferential treatment" to large multinational corporations that seek those funds.

As for the trust issue, I have already decided that one a long time ago, and it is NOT a positive decision. In my view the betrayal of trust and the legacy of broken promises, ripped up contracts, the attacks on many sectors of the population, including BC's interior, and the lack of transparency around such key matters as BC Hydro and the BC Rail affair have made my conclusion fairly easy.

Then to see, Campbell's current electoral conduct, going around the province, like new-born Santa Claus, announcing capital expenditures makes me sick to witness.

Finally, there is the issue of respect - and for me that is critical - in my view there has been ample disrespect in the last four years and that doesn't deserve to be rewarded with an election victory.

But, regretably...since the majority of the electorate are swayed by the capitalistic media...me things "history will repeat itself".

The key is the 'media"...I would love to see a pissed off electorate organize protests at major media corporations demanding change, demanding fair reporting.

I would love to see consumers of mass media organize into a society or union, and carry out political and economic measures to effect change within the media.

I would love to see more provincial money go towards 'co-op' radio, low powered FM, podcasters, and Sat. radio, etc.

With others I aspire to create a civil society and a civilized economy, not a society where there exist considerable disparities between rich and poor and between metropolitican and rural regions.

Not a low-level democracy such as we have now, but a society where there is more equal distribution of wealth and political power. Not an obstensively capitalist society which by its nature spawns alienation and greed and other human 'vices' with few virtues such as honesty, and higher quality trust relations between people. A society where the populace creates via dialogue a "Genuine Progress Index" , so that happiness, wellness, and positive regard for the environment and social factors count at least equally if not more so, that the purely material financial factor.

and for all of that I am highly dubious such a civilized society and economy can be created by political parties - especially provincially organized political parties. To me the words "sustainability", civil society, civilized economy, seem to match with the concept of 'bioregionalism' and parties or social movements closer to home...representing the unique regions of BC.

Nothing happens in a vacume, JIm. It is true that the policies of one provincial government will carry over into consequences for the next. For example, the NDP's policies that helped open up mining in BC have helped and the BC LIberals, who are now taking credit for that. I also liked Van Der Zalm's helping out pregnant teenagers by providing facilities for them to have their babies and continue in high school; some of this has been dismantled by Gordon Campbell in the name of saving a few bucks.

I am sure that you can find some policies of the Socreds that were helpful to the NDP in the 90's.

As a child I always wanted my own Goose that layed the Golden Egg. I just realized that we have one! Gordon is laying Golden Eggs for our upcoming Golden Decade. Wow. Just like a fairytale ain't it??

But how can you possibly see, jean? It must be difficult to breathe as well...

Just a, observation, re Collin hanson on the steps of the legislature, with the running shoes, an obvious stockwell dayism, as pointed out by Heather Watson, aka civvixen in The tyee's sister paper, Terminal City. Hard not to see hanson and christy clarke, with their fitness will save BC (so we can gut healthcare even more) as a sort of species, of, well, uber-geek neo-nazi light, especially with hanson's nordic hatchetface, which looks like it could chop concrete in profile-if there was concrete there, and you wanted to chop it, to paraphrase hemingway. I couldn't help but flashing on the nazis and the nazi -youth movement. But seriously, weren't the nazis big fitness freaks too...physical fitness that is...? Just a passing observation...

I still have hopes that you will soon begin to put music to your most interesting lyrics of 2/17.

What is the nature of your test? Are you waiting to see if this place is as anonymous as you hope? I've been thinking for some time that there must be people of conscience and character caught up in this Liberal mess. I mean, an honourable party has been taken over by the neo-pod people from Maui, somebody must both object to this sad state of things and also be in a position to tell some true stories.

Is it you? I hope so, and if it is so, I hope you can find a safe way to tell what you know.

It's very important that this story start to expand before the court case begins. As it stands now, two pawns and a cousin will be all there is to this, and the bad guys could get away scot-free again.

Will Martin says in his final sentence "it ain't good government". I agree, only I would add it ain't government at all. The present government isn't interested in the idea of governance. It has no respect for it.( But they all gladly take home their more than handsome pay for "representing the people".) It is acting as a free agent for our land and resources, that's where it's interests lie. The people of this province and the social systems we depend upon are just a burden ( a burden they must pretend to care about) in their greedy, arrogant attempt to abscond with all the pieces of the BC pie, paid for so conveniently by the taxpayers of BC.

This ain't no government at all. This is Open Range. All the fences, those that protect our human and civil rights, those that protect our privacy, those that protect our right to access information and in effect, the right to determine our future ...all those fences that once protected our rights in this province have fallen.

A quote from some western movie remembered dimly.

" Yup. Shore looks like that fence's bin cut. We got rustlers."

Testing: This is so important. Don't hang us out to dry. Your words are seared in our memories:

Virk and Basi

Basi and Virk

Campbell's involved

He's also a jerk.

Like "Dear Testing" and others, "I've been thinking for some time that there must be people of conscience and character caught up in this Liberal mess ..." who could tell us what went wrong in the Legislative corridors.

We can fix it. But first, we have to know what happened. So far as I can see, David Basi has nothing to lose, at this point, and a lot to gain by deciding to help British Columbia out of this mess.

i have one too! it goes, gordo and laura sitting in a tree, k.i.s.s.i.n.g, first comes love, then comes marrige, then .........

Shame on you allen for suggesting Collins had a chance to show "how fiscally astute". I know you really know better. Since when did a small plane, flight instructor who lucked out in the Liberal landslide and got appointed by his friends to the Finance Ministry, have a clue about finances!! He cerainly would be cooperative to the bunch pulling his strings.

I do agree that Collin's sudden LEAP into David Ho's lap was motivated by panic. But, are you really sure that his salary was cut? I don't think so.

Afterall Mr. Ho is very close buddies with Mr. Poole/Campbell and the 'circle' of boys. I understand he also owns the Arbutus Club where Mr. Furlong was plucked to be their 'frontman'(tool) for their personal, 'Olympic' gold treasure chest.

Hmmmm - my imagination is active wondering just how much confidential info Collins was privy to? I wonder what THAT is worth?

JIm has a whole theory of wage determination under collective bargaining, and it's not a new one. It was being trotted out pretty regularly during the Ferry strike:

"Overpaying landscapers, kitchen staff, and cleaning crews does not shorten the waiting list. The real problem with the HEU is it lumps skilled professionals with untrained workers. It's the inherent flaw with unions. In order to bring the worst worker up to the level of the best and most trained worker the best highly trained worker gets shafted. Unions work to protect the weakest worker and provide absolutely no benefit to the best worker. In a sense the X-ray technician is getting shafted by the line cook. You may not agree with my overall views but in this case there is no way you can say im wrong. Essentially your penalized for educating yourself."

You know JIm, in a free country we are in fact able to say you are wrong. And I think you are. Unions that represent workers at different skill levels don't always act to raise the wages of the least skilled relative to the more skilled, but they often do. It's termed wage compression, and it's one of the discoveries of labour economics in the last thirty years or so. It was previously beleived that unions increased wage differentials. But while unions may raise the wages of the less skilled relatively more, they still tend to raise the wages of more skilled members relative to the non-union segment of the same industry or occupation. A rough approximation is that unions raise wages by about 15% once other factors like experience and education are accounted for.

I think I saw the same western, Bailey, with the same wily rustlers . With the release of that little ditty by "testing" above, maybe High Noon is closer than we think.

There's also that western "Hombre," starring Paul Newman as the outsider who saves everybody's bacon..."How do you think you're going to get back down that hill gordo...?" I don't know anything about that rhyme but it's sure intriguing. Who's Laura? Forgot to add in my last post that one of Heather Watson's best points is that the runners hanson's wearing on the legislature steps are made in China, a land where unions are illegal, that has no human rights, that pays starvation wages. How apt. Duke Point class action lawsuits are heating up...hope for a Tyee story on that...

Wonderwoman, forgive me for not plying that statement with enough ironic sarcasm.

Of course Collins has not shown anything approaching fiscal astuteness and his last minute replacement requires even more acting lessons it appears.

I'm winging it on my sense that David Ho, while a crass political participant no doubt, has a much better understanding of value than say a drunk driver. Surely Ho isn't about to pay anyone twice or more what they are worth when he pays the rest of his staff not one penny more than he has to. Would you want jealous and pissed off pilots and crews serving your clients?

I think your imagination is quite good and that the former FM may know lots of dirt on lots of people. But then there is a very strong vein of opinion that suggests some of that dirt, involving the hiring of certain now-troubling staffers was gained through direct experience.

Stress, fear, worry, all those things get some of us up swinging at shadows while others are referred to as "runners".

allan: I hope you realize I was teasing with a smile on my face. My reply is: "Yes" and "Yes, indeed" to your first two points.

I REALLY agree that it would not be "a good thing" to irritate the other pilots etc (chuckle, chuckle)- in fact I don't think I will be using Harmony; better safe than sorry!

My questions surrounding Mr. Ho are right in line with your view that he most definitely has more smarts than "a drunk driver". Therefore, why would he hire Collins, period? My crypton Xray vision hints at some other motive for Collins landing this Executive position with Mr. Ho, as Collins scurried for cover, from the Finance Ministry - some other "value" as to why he 'qualified' in he eyes of 'the Boys'. In real life, his training is as a flight instructor and I don't see any teaching going on with his shiny new position. I believe he was placed in the role of Finance Min. for a reason : as a LINK, to the preservation of the 'circle'including his proactive role in hiring staffers etc. I didn't notice the other Ministers involved getting plum jobs. did you? Has anyone checked on their 'health' lately? Maybe I just had a dream about all of this but something tells me it has EVERYTHING to do with LINKAGES; a 'circle' must not be broken.

I ask everyone to reflect on the following: The Sun had a wonderful picture of:

Joe Hussein,Intawest/Whister/Blackcomb (receiving millions for being part of the Olympics - how come, if this event is such an 'economic generator to the private sector?);

Mr. Poole, Chair of Concert Properties and the Olympics (Ken Dobell, Prem. Gordon's sidekick Deputy Min pulls the strings on govt. funds etc. along with some senior bureaucrats on VANOC);

and Mr. Ho (whose former Manager, Furlong is taking marching orders from Poole/Dobell all beaming, almost hugging each other in Hawaii, after Harmony was launched. Harmony, indeed!!

Now look at Collin's role as Finance Minister steering budget allocations, and look where he is now? Perception is everything.

Sorry, I would appreciate clarification on your last comment, If you are referring to Finance Min. Hanson (looking ridiculous) as being a "runner" for the 'circle' then I get it!

Desperate people resort to desperate things.

Perhaps the Chinese runners are in anticipation of the exposure of the truth about these secret connections. If Campbell and his cabinet were shown to be involved in grow-ops, drug dealing, money laundering, bribery and corruption, they just might have to go on the run. With or without the connection to Martin and the Feds.

Wonderwoman, methinks you have a better grasp on these suckers than I.

Actually, the runner reference was to the former fin. min. who didn't wait to purchase the silly running shoes, but the Hanson angle fits the picture even better.

Wonderwoman, there is no doubt linkages and ties that a great many would get quite squeemish about should some of this stuff ever be forced out through a full and complete trial. I go to sleep at night dreaming of such a "show" trial going ahead, but wake each new day to the dark sense that the courts won't be on side until the people are seen to be.

I thought you were chuckling as you wrote the first note, but hey, it gave me a forum, so thank you.

RE: Bringing down governments. Let's see...on one side of the scale we have a small deck where each nail and every board was scrutinized in finite detail by immense media coverage and on the other side of the political scale we have a historical raid on the BC Legislature that may involve as Nike says, drug dealing, grow-ops, money laundering, bribery, corruption, and possible links to the Feds, not to mention some questions about Olympic size schemery over budget allocations. Think it's enough yet to wake up everyone from their deep oblivious sleep? What does it take these days to move the attention of the media and the public past center ice? Are there no courageuous souls left who still know how to blow a whistle?

We are definitely reading from the same page, allen; as is Nike! Thanks for the 'oh - so true, clarification.

Your "dark sense" about the Supreme Courts is right on. Politicians in deep do-do, can be comforted that not only do they get represented by govt. lawyers, but they can count on the Attorney General's ability to 'help' their client's(s') case along in court. They have a magic wand to get the RIGHT Judge for the sticky situatin at hand as they do for Special Prosecutors.

The courts become a part of the protection - part of the 'circle'.

Based on this off the record, cozy cooperation, how can the public possibly have faith in either the govt. or court system? I know of 'good' Judges who actually understand why they are on the bench, but they are helpless to do anything about the politicization of the courts. As far as I can remember, any Judge that doesn't cooperate and play the game certainly does not get to go to Appeal Court and sometimes, is forced to retireP>

I really enjoy participating on the Tyee because I believe that it has drawn a group of mainly fair minded people that know there is a 'cancer' in our systems; regardless of their political beliefs - union/nonunion alike. Most people are just sick and tired of corruption and the lack of ethics. Don't you think? I, like you go to bed hoping that the 'bad guys' will be 'outed' and 'ousted' as they deserve.

I can always count on feeling better after reading your opinions and others; that there are many people that share our perspective.

Keep the faith - strength in numbers and PERSISTENCE.

Wonderwoman, what you say about the courts reminds me of the interesting dancing that went on when former prem. Bill Bennett, his brother and Herb Domman ran into some flack over certain stock transactions a few years back.

If you remember the event, there was much speculation and solid anticipation by probably 30 million Canadians that the Ontario's security regulators would handle the legal procedures in an Ontario-based court, given that most of the stocks were playing on the TSE.

But out of nowhere came the bizarre filing of charges by the BC AG, and before you could say Bob's your uncle, the BC case goes ahead, and by gosh Bill and his bro are found to be completely innocent, victims, no doubt of a misunderstanding over a few dozen coincidental phone calls between the Bennett bros and good ol' Herb minutes before the shares tanked.

Ontario securities people who swore they had the dirt on these guys, were somewhat upset given that the BC aquittal ensured everyone that the Bennetts would not have to risk double jeopardy.

Around and around we go.....

an interesting dance, indeed. . . and let us not forget VanderSlam represented by the BC AG - same cookie cutter result.

Things have come full circle again: Isn't it funny (ha-ha)that there is a common thread: essentially the same people surrounding them, are the same people surrounding Campbell in the shadows; the same back room boys- the same bagmen.

Around and around we go.

And then there's H.A.D. Oliver who found absolutely no conflict of interest in the premier's inlaw, milking the Ministry of Children and Families, (the disatrous "reorganization" of which was recently put back for yet another year) like a personal cash cow...the premier said he barely knew the inlaw, a rather miraculous feat, since he stayed at his house whenever he was in Prince George...there's another pony on that garishly painted carosel with the screaming children on it. Totally excellent discussion above...

It's all so very dizzying. No wonder so many people just wanna get off.

Good analysis.Does this retort never stop - I could hardly find the email there are so many replys to your column - what will the California suit with B.C. Hydro do to next years budget?? This may have been answered but I didn't have the stamina to read it all. I wish there were more than three oposition. Do something about it in the next election!

Hydro is claiming that California owes them gazillions of dollars for electricity California bought on the spot market during a period of shortages. Maybe hundreds of gazillions.

California is claiming that it was under attack by Enron and it's companies who had first acquired most of their generating equipment by lobbying for privatization, then scooping up the privatized bits, tripling the price and then tripling it again. To gain the ability do do this, California claims, Enron created phony shortages, brownouts and blackouts. During these shortages contrived by what they say was a criminal conspiricy to defraud, BC Hydro made them an offer they just couldn't refuse. The godfather would have been proud.

California now claims essentially that BC Hydro was acting in concert with Enron criminals to defraud them and it resulted in the near bankruptcy of the entire state and it's low income citizens. That the prices charged were so high as to be extortionate, given California's situation. They say they shouldn't have to pay the bill to Hydro, since it was connected to a crime, and was so enormously above the true price. Their argument is strengthened,if the court will let it in, by the fact that Enron's financial arm, Arthur Anderson Accounting, renamed itself Accenture to avoid further attention at the trial, convinced an American court to declare that they weren't Anderson anymore, and were immediately hired by Gordon Campbell personally to begin privatizing BC Hydro.

If California wins, the court there would likely hold that the Hydro bill was not valid, being proceeds of dishonourable dealings, and Hydro would collect much less than their full bill. Maybe even nothing at all, and be out legal costs.

Some of these comments are far too long , and most of the long ones go unread, But it's to each his own,

You don't know what your missing, leon.

Circles ... round and round we go ... circles ... isn't there a criminal group in Vancouver called The Big Circle Boys?

Red Rose,
The name sets of sensors. Aren't they linked somehow to a trucking or transport firm out of Richmond?

I think the firm was the subject of some probe by people with power.

By chance the probers tripped over another interesting find on the (island), that spoiled holidays the xmas before last for some vatationers..

Or did I just dream this stuff?

Jim--you are hard to take. NO X-ray tech is getting shafted by a line cook. X-ray and other techs are in HSA-not HEU. The people getting shafted (besides the public) were the biomedical electronic technologists. They are in demand and several have left for other jobs in other provinces. When you go to hospital Jim, perhaps you'll have a resentful biomed repairing your heart monitor.

Oh, I don't think JIm needs to worry if his medical problem is anything to do with the heart...however his spleen will no doubt give him problems...

I'd like to respond to JIm's comments about unions protecting the unskilled at the expense of more skilled people. The I.B.E.W., to which my partner belongs, does not let anyone join unless he or she is a qualified electrician. My partner has an A ticket and he gets more per hour, under the union contract, than do less skilled electricians. I don't know about other unions, but this is how it is with his. And even the "unskilled" need protection, need a living wage, and they get that when they belong to a union.

I have also learned, from my partner and his union newsletter, that the Campbell gov't has decertified the trades. This means that you don't need to be qualified to work at a trade in this province! Employers can legally hire the unqualified now. More leaky condos anyone? The only reason that union electricians are still hired is that some companies still want to protect their reputations--but they will be under-bid by the sleazy, fly-by-nights now, especially since most of the people I talk to don't seem to know that this decertification of the trades has happened!

As to union workers being lazy--well, some are. So are some private sector workers. Many sub-standard workers are kept on (or hired in the first place) because they are a friend or relative of the boss.

Good comments, Anne. The liberals have also broken up and compartmentalized other trade skills, subdividing them until they become more like assembly-line work, than trades. Should so-trained Bc workers ever need to work in other provinces, or choose to, they will have difficulties getting their skills recognized. This is simple one more aspect of the BC "liberal" race to the bottom. Carole James has stated that if elected she will restore the short sighted and ideologically driven 25% cut to trade funding. I wonder how many of the 22,600 fulltime well paying jobs the BC liars lost last year (December 7, 2004, Vancouver Sun) are due to such mindless BC liberal-owner driven cuts and "reforms..."

Remember the NDP and their "fudge-it" budget. Balanced Budget --> Election --> billion dollar deficit. Raids on the legislature due corruption (Glen Clark - casinogate). 4 premiers in 8 years (Resolving door). Wasting money on Fast Ferries.. People have very short memory especially NDP supporters. The liberals have got the economy going having to make hard choices arising from these years of mismanagement.

I find it pretty interesting how these supposed progressives are against public transit (Richmond skytrain link). The same people who are adamant against the Richmond line (Derek Corrigan-mayor of Burnaby) for being too expensive and having a private partner are the municipalities that benefitted from the Millenium Burnaby line which ran out money in the budget so it could not be completed and connected to coquitlam. There was no public consultation at all with this line as it was personal project of Glen Clark's and completely funded by the provincial government (no split between private partner, municipal, federal, provincial, and airport) as in this case. The Coalition Opposed to Practically Everything (COPE) indeed..

Interestingly, these same people are against very well planned green energy micro-hydro projects (ie Ashlu). These progressive politicians are opposed to these projects out of ideology, they are opposed to the private sector being involved in energy and transportation projects.

Homer: You would have made Goebbels proud of you! RAV ~ SEA-TO-SKY ~ 2010 GAMES are ALL waiting for one of the biggest scandals to hit BC ever!

Rickw..empty imflamatory rhetoric..If you make a comment, you should back it up with facts, that is propaganda

The trouble with your ignorant assertions, homer, is that Casinogate was a Canwest BS media fabrication; Clark, unlike Campbell was found innocent, RAV was misrepresented AND unneeded, and the taxpayer is on the hook for the cost... The fast ferries at least created needed jobs, rather than giving them away. And, homer ol' doh!, BC HAS BEEN A FEDERAL WELFARE BASKET CASE UNDER THE BC LIARS, ELIGIBLE FOR EQUALIZATION PAYMENTS FOR EVERY SINGLE DAY OF BC LIAR MISMANAGEMENT: A HARD COLD FACT!!! BC also lost 22,600 fulltime well paying jobs last year as reported in the Vancouver Sun, december 7, 2004. All That's holding the province together are high prices for natural resources and low interest rates fueling housing starts, TWO THINGS HAVING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BC BACKSTABBERS. DDDDOOOOOOHHHHH!

(Doh! Obviously your monicker is taken from the Simpson's TV show character, and not the great story teller and sage from antiquity...doh!)

And, furthermore...ddddoooohhh!!!!!

The millenium line ran out of money and was not completed to coquitlam, the taxpayers in the GVRD continue to subsidize it year after year because of its low ridership. It cost about the same as RAV (in the mid 1990's, before construction price increases), except the cost was not split between different partners. In addition, there was little public consultation during the initial design because it was a pet project of Glen Clark and his political ally, Derek Corrigan.

Glen Clark was charged by the police (not by Canwest) who continued to pursue this matter in a lengthy court case. Canwest of course reported the scandal in great depth as would any news organization when the premier is charged with breach of trust.

However, I forgot to mention another scandal though during the NDP years of office, bingogate, NDP scamming money from charities, caused Mike Harcourt to resign.

By the way, RAV was sprecified to be done for a "fixed" price, unlike the Millenium Line. If it costs more, the contractor would have to eat the cost.

Your comment on fast ferries creating jobs, why didn't we just give the money of 365 million directly to all the workers to create those about 3000 jobs, at about $125,000 each (sounds great). Would you give a contract to a contractor who you hired to previous build you a home which ends up so leaky and unusable that it has to be resold for 1/20th of the value that you put into it. That's the same logic you are using to justify giving the contract to one the same BC Shipyards involved in the fast ferry financial disaster..

The ships would mostly have been constructed in China anyway, not BC. BC Shipyards are not competitive in large ship construction, however they are good for repairs and small ship construction. BC Ferries uses them for this purpose.

Dddddoooohhhh!!!, redux, homer. Fast ferries spawned an entire ship building industry, as those employed on the fast cats learned aluminum welding, and went on to launch a small boat building industry. And where is Canwrest's "newspapers" coverage of gordon liar, that attempted to hide the premier's drunk driving photo on page 2? And how is it, with an elction coming we never see this photo. And what about the legislature raids, Surrey Memorial hospital and on and on? You are obviously as biased as Canwest and your failure to reply to my proof that the BC liars have turned us into a FEDERAL WELFARE BASKET CASE, suggets that Homer Simpson, is in fact both your intellectual and moral superior....

David Basi comes to trial on 11 March ... and if the trial proceeds without any further delay, it would mean that the province of B.C. has turned a corner and actually does want to get this matter out into the open ... before the May 17 election.

Unless he pleads. Then no trial will occur, no evidence be presented, no unindicted co-conspirators be named.

The illusion of justice, details on page 8C.