I want no part of my money going into munitions or tobacco companies, or companies that support regimes with poor human rights track records (which presently includes the USA). It is outrageous that our pension funds are being channeled into private corporate stocks. I think this shows that our government has been bought out by the interests of these companies.

The real barking mad fox channel?....is off the channel.Do you really think that this doesn't happen in Canadian corps. I'm so glad you woke-up and understand this is normal core business practice it's called democracy???

http://www.walmartstores.com/wmstore/wmstores/HomePage.jsp ~~~ http://www.walmartwatch.com/

is there an on-line petition one can sign to show opposition against this kind of investment?

woops! i've answered my above question by going to the website mentioned in the article. it's "ottawa's coalition to oppose the arms trade".

And the same people who are so vociferous in their pious objections to certain investments will probably be the first ones bitching and complaining when there is no money to fund their retirement. Is it right to invest in such companies? These companies are not doing anything illegal, not withstanding certain practises that may fall in a grey area, and they make money providing good value to the investor, something that is more of a commentary on the world in which we live. Not investing in these companies is not going to make them disappear, nor is not investing in tobacco companies going to make people quit smoking, all it will do is calm a few people sense of moral outrage, a morality they have no right to try and force on to others.

Talk about morals being forced on the unwilling and/or uninformed. Why is it always fait accompli that the religion of "accept the world a s it is or go away and shut up"is the new mindset. Actually we have no recourse to alter the cppib deciding even if heaven forbid investment some how gets into the coffers of companies owned by numbered cos. that are run by the current regime in ottawa. maybe only cos. in quebec should get the funds,if the regime in ottawa says so. Under real world circumstances whoever decides at cppib can be put under pressure,especially if some skelton is in a closet say. No person is immune in our society to ostracizing , probably the feature in canadian society that is most prominent and least discussed. " Just be happy" is canada's motto according to some. As we all should realize once money is handed over to a goverment all yes all strings are cut , I am surprised that general revenue did not become the receiptent for cpp funds.

Good thing we have sages like David F. and UhHuh showing us the way toward ''democracy''. Wow, and I thought democracy had something to do with equality, fairness and standing up for the human condition. How dumb of me. I obviously missed the transition from a society that is caring and aware enough to ensure we have some form of public pension, public health care and education to one where blood money is as Canadian as maple syrup. QUESTION FOR UHHUH: could you please expand a bit on that "grey area" you so quickly glossed over? Are you talking of the slave labour conditions many Asians exist in so that Wal-mart can sell cheap underwear in Canada? Is it a grey area rather than illegal simply because it happens outside our national borders? I note your benchmark appears to be ''they make money providing good value to the investor.'' Ever get any qualms that your investments are financing an illegal war in Iraq, killing children and all but promising us future generations of more hate and death so that "investors" can sleep at night without worry that peace might break out? I just love it when people like you sum up the CPP criticism as ''all it will do is calm a few people(s') sense of outrage, a morality they have no right to try to force on to others.'' I do note you have no trouble implying I should bury my ire at scumbag retailers, the war industry or cancer-inducing companies and just accept that your investment buck is more important than anything else. To me, you represent the real face of terrorism in this world, hidden behind it's own mask of moral outrage that someone might question your own greed.

I hope a goal of humane treatment can be instilled ,perhaps even a law , that no harm can come to any other person by use of tax money by any level of canada's governing powers.I thought a canadian got protection from assault or at least some recourse if one occurs. Some people opine that this type of investment rules outany consideration beyond profit.Total indifference to others as a result of decisions made appears to be the basis of corruption of all involved in a activity. Depraved indifference may allows us to end up even killing people for profit. If you disbelieve that, just checkout the rampant killing of people at the grasberg mine in indonesia.A mine that may be the largest gold deposit now in production, it is operated by thefreeport mcmorran group of new orleans, one of the directors happens to be henry kissinger yes that one , the man of words of peace from the nixon adminstration,u.s.a. Whom brought to the world the veitnam killing. So life goes on many say, accept it , it is a shithole planet.

I've raised the same issues with the British Columbia Teachers' Federation--they have advocates who advise the British Columbia Pension Corporation on a variety of issues, including investments. I have been quite solidly admonished for having the temerity to suggest that the teachers' pension fund monies find some other home than porn and weapons--fiduciary responsibility far outweighs morals and ethical investing. Good luck to all who try to bring much needed reform to our various pension plans.

Paul Martin makes me sick.

Well golly-gee, David F., I guess you shoooor told me! I guess being a good polite Canadian means we're supposed eat chickencrap with a 'pretty please' and silver fork. Let's talk about folks who hyper-read into stuff, like nowhere did I say I didn't already KNOW this stuff happens in Canadian Corps. Stop shoving words into my mouth and save your overheated breath for McNaughton.

As long as neoclassical market economics are being taught exclusively at our universities, there's no hope for any betterment. This theory may have started off as an error at the Chicago School of Economics by people like Friedman, but in the past 30 years has become the biggest crime wave in human history, killing millions every year and far exceeeding the combined damage done by madmen like Hitler, Stalin and Mao. The theory is built on the fraudulent, partial, out of context quotations by Smith and Ricardo, the fraudulent definition of economic efficiency, the fraudulent figures used for the GDP, growth and productivity statistics. If this theory is permitted to continue, it can destroy human civilization. Those who teach it and promote it should be in jail, those who absorb it are mentally damaged for life. All this can be proven very easily.

Ed Deak is right. That it has taken Cynthia Flood, and many others, this long to recognize the age old disconnect between ethics and economic profit mandated by neoclassical economics is a testament to the gate-keeping power of media and the failure of our education system. The end result of corporate ‘personhood’ is that money has no conscience. Financial markets have become vehicles for guilt free "resource" destruction: destruction by proxy. Investors can distance themselves from the daily rape, pillage and carnage that spin from stock market speculation. To claim that profiting by investing in industries that develop technology used to kill people in war is somehow less morally and ethically acceptable than profiting by investing in technologies that kill them through environmental calamity somehow misses the point. Although the value of money is determined by many factors, in this neoclassical world, ethics is not on the list.

Capitalism runs on destruction. Is that news to anyone? What wreaks greater destruction than armaments? Most hilarious to me are those who've commuted to their jobs the last 25 years, sucking off the teat of cheap resources and cheap educations and actively participating in the market while blissfully ignoring their complicity in keeping it running as smoothly as it has. Oh - NOW they're outraged. Yeh it was easy to be a college dropout 25 years ago and still land a spot at a decent company making a nice wage. Those radicals turned and shook their fist at the establishment while the market (aka "the establishment") absorbed them and gave them shiny cars and nice homes to absorb their attention. And yet now, when the ramifications of living like ignorant pigs comes into focus their position is to "get active" and write letters to the editor. LOL. Wow. So much change will happen by writing your thoughts into an articles footnotes on the Tyee. Real change comes when you do *real* shit and move your words into deeds. When the man said "Drop Out" the addled bone heads thought he was talking about drugs. "He" wasn't. Here's what was meant. Don't go to work. Don't pay your taxes. Stop buying shit. Just fucking stop. Would you? No. Did you? No. Why? Because you *had* to. And while you did, real shit was going on that you *could* have changed had you been paying more attention to what was going on around you, instead of kicking car tires. Assholes. But you know what? Now it's too fucking late because of all the cowards that didn't have the GUTS to actually *do something*. It makes me ill to consider how many 'leftist' people have put their lives on the line for their beliefs and paid the price for it. The 'leftists' in North America just bent over the boardroom table. Or the lunchroom table. Like those 'alternative' lovers at The Georgia Straight. Nice houses for a bunch of hippy-crits. Shut up or show up, you bullshit spewing moral high grounders. Stop talking it and WALK IT.

well said allan the principles of democracy according to my dictionary are 'equality of rights and opportunities and rule by the majority'. The word democracy is abused in this time when the economy apparently rules all. We need a Tommy Douglas!

Grow up clb. Really. Grow up. People don't live in dictionaries or textbooks. Pull your heads out of the books, or wherever else you have them buried and take a good look around. You'll never get another Tommy Douglas, so ixnay the fantasyland and get with the program. Repeat after me. Fund and mobilize. Fund and mobilize. Grok this Grandpa... "Strength lies in organization, in careful long-range planning and implementation, in consistency of action over an indefinite period of years, in the scale of financing available only through joint effort, and in the political power available through united action and national organizations." That was an excerpt from a memo written in 1971. It set the tone for where the world is at today. As it happens, it was a memo written for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce by a judge who within a year of writing it would be sitting on the Supreme Court. See how it works? You need people on the inside. At minimum, you need people who are ready to 'throw down'. Where's the "little guys" candidates? Sitting on their asses sucking on tenure at universities. How useful. How cowardly. Doesn't it strike anyone as deeply ironic that the Economic professors preaching the gospel of the Chicago school are the ones who'll never have to peddle their shit on the market? It certainly strike me as two faced and hypocritical to find progressives apprently too stupid or scared to live in the real world spouting horseflop policies they'll never have to actually provide. Turn the computer off. Get your heads out of the dictionaries and books and go test your theories. Get names. Get money. Go get elected to school boards or park boards. Go get elected to city councils. Go get elected anywhere, but get off your asses and "Start somewhere". Unless you're too cynical or cowed by your own fear of failure. The fears you've manufactured by your disgusting laissez faire attitudes. Big deal... you lose your house. Wahhh. As long as you're alive, you can still cast a vote. Whatsametter, you forget the fundamentals? Ignoramuses and hypocrites. All of you. Don't show people a book. Show them a success. Move your asses. If you can.

People should inherently have a say what types of investments they want to support with their money - this is outrageous. It is quite feasible that the tobacco industries and other parasites of society will take a real knock by those who want them to be held accountable of robbing them of health and it would serve the CPP investment holders right if they are left holding the empty stocking fund. However, you go to any bank to invest in an RRSP - and you will get the funds pushed by your "advisor" to be the same that the CPP have unwisely chosen to line the hole in their pockets. It is a sign of desperation to pay off the mass exodus of the retirees. One need look no further than the Tyee for sound investment advice that will really support growth - Real Assets and WOF (that support this fine media outlet) are the types of funds the CPP should (if they really had the best interest of Canadians at heart) be investing in.

Well what did you expect when you went out and voted for a man whose ships are registered outside the country to avoid taxes and safe labour standards???? YES this is horrible. YES this is disgusting. It is not new!! This nation has long profited from death. The biggest convention of arms and munitions dealers was held in VICTORIA and there was no huge demonstration against it, because our media barely bothered to mention it. Jewel wants to bring US Garbage to Gold River to burn in the boilers at the old pulp mill. Protest this, please! On the other hand its probably a great place for them to invest our retirement pension.........

Much good commentary here, from regulars like my old friend KWD, with whom I do agree from time to time :-)-, and a few whom I don't recognize from here before. And then, of course, there are the shadowing, shape shifting and name changing Brownshirts, just for laughs and their usual grunt, spit and fart rightist fare.

"...anything illegal, not withstanding certain practises that may fall in a grey area, and they make money providing good value to the investor, something that is more of a commentary on the world in which we live..." as an example of Brownshirt, straight out and out hooey crappola, that kisses the ass of the One True Holy Corporatist Marketplace, of their sorry ass, servile wannabe dreams. It is the espousers of this view of the status quo capitalist economy and its marketplace morality, that is the greatest danger to our time, and wrecking the most havoc on the dreams of an egalitarian, civilized and peaceful future. They are the Clockwork Orange wrecking crew, preoccupied only with themselves and their thuggish, capitalist marketplace emulating ambitions and resentments.

"I'm alright, Jack! Everyman for himself!"

Yeah, right. Until they want to use you for gun fodder, in one of their imperialist, empire building wars, like say, Iraq. Then just click your jackboot heels, do as you are told, and march off to die for the New Reich.

Well, it's a tad more complicated than that, my Brownshirt friends. Some of us ain't ready to follow Bush, his bootlick Campbell, or you, his goosestepping marionettes into Hell.

There are other possibilities struggling to take shape out there in the real world; such as here on Tyee.

Which drives you Market Nutters to distraction, doesn't it?

Good-o. Your Brownshirt hysteria and invective is, in part, what we use to measure your fear and our success by.

Some folk will insist on lecturing us all about the difference between private catharsis and public action. I suppose they figure they're endowed with omniscience, since apparently we have all become so transparent. What a marvel such supreme wits waste their enlightenment upon we, the unwashed. Really, they should just bestow thid enlightened screed upon that sympathetic basement wall they've been blibbering to with all those sanguine expectations the gods are listening, ears wide open.

Yes, except it's 'this' enlightened screed, not 'thid'.

Gee thanks, Glistening Embers. So should we get together and torch a couple of financial institutions to get the revolution heated up? Sorry for the sarcasm, but your rant leaves me with the impression you are a flamer. I know it feels great to call us all assholes from behind the obscurity of a handle and to lecture us on the value of "real shit", but I have to wonder if you really understand what "real shit" actually means and the utter idiocracy of trying to forment the final battle in a public forum. There is also a certain contradictory tone to your rant, given that you see no problem using this forum to criticize others for what? Using the forum??? A wise revolutionary would, in my estimation, be stirring up "real shit" as an individual so that he or she isn't undone by overzealous supporters or colleagues naive enough to think they can walk and talk at the same time. Frankly, after reading your two posts, I get the impression you are probably a right-winger trying to mascarade as Che in the hopes of drawing one of us Maoists, Marxist or fellow travellers into outlining how we are methodically using Tyee to cause "real shit".

Hi Coyote. Hmmm. Glistening Embers even *reads* like me. Like a lot like me actually. As creepy as it feels, I'm gonna have to go with the old Embers on this one. I read a lot of 'fist shaking' from the left - especially from academics, but on a practical level, the left's proven rather impotent politically. Maybe those like thinking lovers of 'the little guy' were too busy buying hairshirts at any place other than a Walmart. Hey, we all gotta make those car payments right? If nothing else, Ember's highlighted the Achilles heel of alternative political thought in this country. Inaction + righteous policy = meeting nobody's needs. ... so hey Sniff, smell my finger.

While I agree with the article and most of the comments above,I think that most of you are missing a very important point,which is; should this fund be in the stock market at all? I personally think not.That money should be kept in ultra concervative money markets in Canada and perhaps Switzerland even though they generate relatively low interest rates. The North American stock markets have been in a down trend since Dec/Jan 2000 and is showing absolutly no signs of a reversal and infact has all the makings of resuming a very strong down trend again.I would predict that funds like the BC Teachers,CCP etc will collapse within the next 5 yrs unless a much more conservative approach is taken.They have already taken a good hit during the 2000/02 drop and I think that the next leg down will be even greater.The people who manage these funds have not got a clue and are just like the talking heads on the TV. A couple more points.Some of you seem to think that we live in a democracy which could not be further from the truth.If you are interested look up the word "oligarchy" I think that you will find that better describes our situation. If you condone a government that allows the sale of cigarettes,why would you be upset about them investing in the companies that make them?One goes with the other. Please remember that if you live by the sword you will probably die by it.

Hold the phone. They’re playing the market with my CPP contributions? what they’re buying and selling is beside the point, but gambling with my obligatory CPP contributions is dirty. If they’re just going to take the money and lay it on the line to be inflated or diminished by the whims of the free market, I’ll keep my contributions and use them to buy gold. Had I been doing that since 3 years ago, I’d have quite the nest egg right now. But alas, I can’t. That part of my paycheque goes in to the cash portion of some glorified fund manager’s portfolio so that he can buy more of the worthless crap that he’s already taken a loss on. “No sweat,” he tells himself, “I’ll just bring my average down…” From this point forward I’m keeping a running tally of the CPP contributions that I COULD be betting on The Lions, against the spread, all the way to the Grey Cup. It will irk me that the money is instead in the coffers of public companies. AMERICAN public companies, no less. Maybe I should bet the Seahawks.

I have read some comments from some contributors who criticise people for not using a real name and understand for obvious reasons why most don't.However Allan you should not be one of these critics.Allan who?

Not after you've been sitting on it fhb. You're like the lady who protests too much.

Hedley, 'plutocracy' fits better than oligarchy, though they're both close.

Hey Sniff - interesting that you'd presume a finger is for sitting on. What more telling a statement could you make to describe your cluelessness and inaction than that? I think you'll try again though - right, clown? Maybe change your nick while you try to slip the bounds of your impotence. So... predictable.

More projection dear lady.

Hedley Goldsworthy, I'm not criticising anyone for not using their full name, real name or even substituting a comma for a name. What I object to are flamers who arrive on the scene with the obvious answer (according to them), but can't get around to presenting it without first calling everyone else an ''asshole'' and then attempting to lecture to people he/she/it doesn't know anything about. "Get names", "get money", "get elected. . ." offers the sage. Well gee, why didn't I think of that. I've been helping people get elected for decades as have others who write here so we don't need the wisdom of some recent poli-sci wonderkid to show us the way. The problem, as I see it, isn't getting people who say they are progressive elected. It's making sure they really are progressive and if they buy into the fiduciary responsibilities bullshit as noted elsewhere on this forum, they're mere tools for the other side. Fiduciary responsibility does mean finding the best results, but the best results are determined by a variety of factors, including ethics and a truckload of other caveats if desired, which should be determined by anyone but the person doing the deals. A QUESTION FOR FHB: Other than ranting (which you and your fellow traveller seem quite capable of) and verbal shaking of fists, what would you propose leftists do at Tyee to satisfy your revolutionary needs? I can't climb through my computer screen, I can't even get rid of jerks like you by pushing the delete button, so I'm down to either typing out my thoughts or staying quiet and that ain't about to happen. Other than that Hedley, I think your arguments about playing the markets are bang on. How many more trillions of savings and pension dollars have to be sucked up by the market manipulators before people wake up to the fact the stock markets are an ever changing scam?

Thank you, allan.

So how many of you have written, phoned, or emailed their MP? Don't flame him or her, but let them know you're damned angry, and demand change now. Here's a tip about emailing them: they don't read emails UNLESS you put your hometowns name in the subject line. I suggest you make it the first word, put it in CAPS, and use the word "constituent". Give 'em hell.

Yeh. Congratulations Allan. Nice work you're doing on behalf of progressives. Thanks for making the message the majority of Canadians have regarding the "Missile Defence Plan" come to fruition. Thanks a lot for Universal Day Care. I could go on...It appears you and the rest of your generations theorists have thought of everything but how to actually enact the things "progressives" claim our society required. Way to slow down the selling off of the country to corporations! Way to enact laws on behalf of workers/stakeholders that permit them to enact democratic principles at their workplace! Etc etc etc...I'll allow that you yourself may be doing everything you possibly can - but judging by the results, your "class" as a whole is colossal failure. Here's a suggestion: Start a program that goes school to school and involves young kids in understanding how a market actually works. Standard right wing tactics decry legislation that curtails corporate investment by proclaiming that investors will flee. (The 'fear' factor) I say let corporate investors flee. Get the hell out. Markets don't exist without consumers and it ain't like Canadians can travel as freely as corporations. That means there's demand. Which in turn means we'll be forced to make our own markets to serve the demand. Simplistic? You bet. But that's the premise used to sell the free market system and create the fear of "loss". Oh boo-hoo; Monsanto doesn't love us anymore. Tell it to Percy. Show kids that they have the tools to come up with alternatives. Reinforce that same co-opted bullshit corporate speak of 'small and nimble' but from a new approach. We're in love as a society with building on top of existing structures (both in a technological and philosophical sense). Wouldn't it be more useful to cherry pick that which has worked and integrate that in new and different ways? Hard work? Yeh, I guess it is. But at least that work gives people some feedback. And personally, I'd rather have people involved in a fluid democracy than shitting their pants under a rigid oligarchy. Check out JR Sauls suggestion of 'community involvement hours' for more tangible (and I suppose more credible in your degreed eyes) suggestions on enacting democracy. Finally in regards to your ethical quandry - so when the progressive left finally achieves its goals of administering this country will they be abiding by NAFTA? I guess 'ethically' they'd be obliged to support it, wouldn't they? I guess 'ethically' you'd have to abide by *all* those previously agreed upon obligations, right? Maybe your ethical guidelines need a little revising. Good luck with that.

Some are frankly delusional if not blind - how can any competent individual not see that the fabric of Canadian culture was built by "progressives" - tune in to CBC Greatest Canadians debate - from Tommy Douglas to Trudeau to the university "tenured" Suzuki that have shaped the ideological stance of a country that certainly lies to the left of centre - and when depressed alcoholics such as Klein and Gordo mimic another alcoholic Bush in terms of policy - there is revolt that does take place to shift the equilibrium. One can just imagine the "left" and "right" conscience sitting on each of the shoulders of the great Canadian Head - which is our society. You can thank the left for keeping thoughts of suicide at bay.

Oh and allan... both Coyote and I are high school dropouts. Naturally, this explains our disdain (mine being much more cavalierly belligerent than his) for degreed know it alls.(He tends to reserve his for conservatives causes, however; whereas I'm all about equal opportunity) Perhaps for my part, this comes from travelling on transit, working night shifts, and not attending all those workshops ("hey keep your receipts!) or faculty gatherings. Yeah, that's it. I just didn't have the same support mechanisms (feedback loops) for my way of thinking, I guess. I had to come up with it on my own. Inner directed - instead of obliged. Perhaps that's why I can spot 'failures' so easily; being as I am one. Gosh, you know - when I put it like that - it just seems like I'm just so very bitter, angry and disenfranchised, aren't I? Now I gotta go Al, I'm starting to tear up here...LOL

"Frankly, after reading your two posts, I get the impression you are probably a right-winger trying to mascarade as Che in the hopes of drawing one of us Maoists, Marxist or fellow travellers into outlining how we are methodically using Tyee to cause "real shit"." writes Allan, who share's my impression of this Brownshirt nutter, trying to dress himself up in "way out there" left-wing drag.

That said, I'd say there are probably few of us here, who would unabashedly call ourselves "left", who are not aware that what passes for "the serious left", as opposed to simple shape shifting Brownshirt ravers like burned out "Embers", who don't understand for ourselves, that "the left" is in a fairly sorry state in current rising Neocon Capitalism. Myself included. I have no illusions about much of the political effectiveness of what I do, in the prevailing circumstances.

On the other hand Burnt Out Embers is so way out "radical", that the best advice he can give us is, the failed "Social Democratic" solution of go out and run for school board or "get elected" somewhere, anywhere. Which really drops one of his shape shifting veils of course, to give us a glimpse of his bare political crotch.

He's a bloody Brownshirt castrato, for god's sake!

As serious a "radical" raving left winger as this guy poses himself to be, would know as elementary, that really, let's get serious you bootlicks, this "democratic model" which he would really have as take "that" seriously, is little more than a ritual the ruling class allows the unwashed masses to participate in, once every four years, so that they can feel they are somehow part of the system, by actually changing dick all, regardless who gets elected.

A serious "radical" left-winger would know my friend, that it ain't "the vote" this side of capitalism, "in and of itself", that is going to "transform" anything "fundamentally", though it may have its "very limited" usefulness-, sometimes. It's mostly a feel good thing they con folks into.

A real radical instinctively knows, that it isn't there the real power lies, Dying Ember, but within the economy-, in the executive suite and the ownership boardrooms. And you ain't gonna get in there by voting for any extant "party" within capitalism, you sorry excuse. You're gonna have to muster a bigger threat than that on the streets-, which we know, and you don't, because you're a pathetic Brownshirt posing as something you are transparently not. And mustering that "transformative" threat, that has real potential, doesn't come about just because you wish for it, or do charitable works. It comes objectively out of a deteriorating economic and political reality and climate, that just ain't there yet-, though it's movin', movin'. And Campbell, and all you other right wing nutters are helping us waiting, waiting, to bring it about.

Keep up your good works. We're waiting in the wings, for you to finish what you've started. We're just feeding you the rope with which to eventually hang yourselves. :-D

More for the list Allan. I guess you had better drop your local river clean-up, setting up that organic food coop, the campaign to stop logging in your neighbour's watershed, that fundraising effort to send a group of college kids over to Mali so they can help out with reforestation, chipping in at the AIDs hospice, teaching woodworking at the elementary school with supplies out of your pocket because the PAC sure can't afford it, cleaning kennels at the SPCA, writing letters for Amnesty, restoring used bicycles for the Sally-Ann's family program, hosting those writers' salons at the library or helping out at the indy film fest, researching past court decisions for a civil case, convincing a book-club to go listen to Maude Barlow, picking up garbage left around the recycling depot cause folks couldn't be arsed to unfold cardboard boxes .... Sounds like there wasn't enough contempt involved.

Well fhb, it would seem your entire focus on life is based on dumb assumptions. I'd go through a lengthy list I compiled while quickly running through your last two postings, but I suspect you aren't here for guidance so I'll just note that Coyote, at least, has the good sense to incorporate a little humour with his wisdom, but then I am curious as to why you would drag Coyote into your pissing match with me. You really don't know a damned thing about me and your assumptions make you, at least in my eyes, look like a complete jerk. How do you know I have a degree? How do you know that I finished high school? How do you even know what generation I am from? It is too bad because I do see a few glimmers of understanding in your writing, but the attitude just gets in the way. Ok, I've changed my mind. I do have a few words of guidance for you. One: ask questions, two: listen, three: allow your brain to rotate or whatever it does several times before putting either your tongue or your typing fingers into gear. Now, as for feeling bitter, angry and disenfranchised, all I can say is you're in good company and the best temporary relief I know of is to do a Tyee rant or two daily until you recover or the feedback starts to hurt.

Ooooo. I must be coming unglued. I can actually, kind of, relate to fhb. :-D He's one angry dude, he's pissed, and he's bitter, but there is actually some rudimentary balance there, that says to me, at least this one is genuine and sorting through all the crappola, left and right. I hope I'm not wrong.

Hang in there fhb. And keep coming here. We might disagree some, but I think you show real promise. Honest.

I'd respond in greater depth to some of your writing here, but the Mrs has got me cooking supper tonight. I spoil that woman.

And Allan, I ain't taken in by anything. I think you are a good man, and though I have a little trouble with his moniker, the mad fox channel. :-)

And eh! Anne Cameron! How ya doin' babe. :-)

Mostly, and it's not like I've never been wrong before, I think fhb is just having a little trouble getting his head around the fact, if you want folks to be patient with you, you gotta reciprocate some. There ain't a one of us here with all the answers. Mostly, we're just "jawing" here, trying to help each other sort through it all. Posting on Tyee isn't going to change the world, in and of itself. Most of us know that.

Hmmm, ”Wouldn't it be more useful to cherry pick that which has worked and integrate that in new and different ways?” Perhaps jhb can enlighten the great unwashed: First, please give us a sample of that which has worked. And then, after you’ve assembled all those nice little hard working cherries, maybe you can tell us who’s ox we gore first … the politician’s or the daycare worker’s? We’re in this state of social decline (globally) because our no-longer-“free” hydrocarbon energy supply has allowed ignorance to flourish. And we are beginning to pay the price. No one in the past, certainly no one in the present and absolutely no one in the future will, through their own volition, exchange more pleasure for less. Not you, not me, not Percy, not JR Saul and most certainly not those in power, irrespective of partisan preference. When was the last time you asked your financial institution to give you the lowest possible return on investment?

Cheers, Coyote. Yep, I'm kinda attached to the moniker. I picked it up when one of the columnists over at the Globe got into trouble with some rightwing nutjobs south of the border for encouraging the CRCT to approve FOX's application for a Canadian station, not because he gave them any credence (called them 'barking mad' in fact), but because he figured we could all use a good laugh at their expense.

Their use of the name, Fox, is an insult to the species. The 'barking mad' bit is a tip of the hat to that columnist, not that I expect he tears himself away from the TV long enough to read The Tyee, and also 'cause I like to howl -- in case you haven't noticed. The 'REAL' bit has something to do with the name of this bizarre retail outlet which insists on calling itself "The REAL Canadian Superstore" as if there's another fake one running around out there somewhere. In my case, there IS another one out there calling itself "Fox" but it's full of chickens instead, so I'm the only authentic Fox channel in this country, though Sarah Harmer would probably win in the vixen category.

Pfft. Nice one allan. Smells like bullshit... "I've been helping people get elected for decades as have others who write here so we don't need the wisdom of some recent poli-sci wonderkid to show us the way." Oh. Really. So not only are you dragging "others" into our little jaw session, you've fashioned yourself a declarer of what they do and don't need!Huh! Aren't you precious? To think I was under the impression people could make up their own minds what they needed. Stop me when the argument *doesn't* sound the familiar 'right wing' klaxon... Whats nice here Al is that I'm giving you all this rope and you keep coming back with a noose that's your collar size. You don't even bother to address the points I've made. Wake up and accept that the vast majority of Canadians don't have a say in their workplace, that they don't have universal daycare, that more and more and more of Canada is owned by persons who have no social interest in the the community, etc etc etc... These are failures to protect Canadians interests. You can argue from either side of your mouth, or the podium but those are the facts. Canada's a far better place to be than a lot of other "democracies" are today and there is much credit due to the "left" for this (which Sirin at least had the good sense to bring forth), but there's a slope under foot and most working people are sliding down it because 'progressives' didn't have the tools available to prevent it being erected in the first place. Disagree, call me names, spout invectives all you want, it's a fact there are more homeless people today than there were 20 years ago. The "left" is "losing". Coyote knows me far better than he may think - and unlike many here, he's been able to see past the provocateur and find the core of what's being said. Maybe its street smarts, maybe its having to actually do blue collar work - I dunno. But at least his ears and eyes are open. Progressives (I hate "left" and "progessive" dammit, but labels are labels...) have to admit to and accept the failures and steel itself to the overarching argument of 'enlightened self interest'. Thats the rights "killer punch" and its knocking the snot out of the left with it. Deal with it. I strongly believe the left needs a new positioning of its image - and fast.If a highschool drop out with a big mouth and a chip on his shoulder renders you incapable of delivering a knock out blow (via reasoned response or satirical stylings - 'delusional' is soooo painful Sirin...), you don't stand a chance against corporate behemoths - or entrenched ideologies like your own, for that matter. Corpo's can shape shift far better than I ever could. So steal the game plan. The left needs a good old fashioned 'morphing'. Kill it. Dress it in new clothes and call it "The Happy Fun Club", for all I care.By the way - nice response on the ethical questions. What's the matter - aren't those exactly the type of questions you suggested I needed to ask in your "words of guidance"? Try again. And this time, try not to come back with something to hang yourself with.

Hey KWDFirst a big tip of the hat for not calling me names. Don't worry, I didn't miss the sarcastic use of 'unwashed' though... FWIW - I'm on the "Peak" bandwagon too. The choices available seem to be a loud, violent, "snapping", or a painful, prolonged "bending". Hopefully, those of us who've chosen to never drive get like "rebates" or something, so that we can live off those fuckers that did. hehe. But as you yourself have observed (and I concur) the not too distant future will incur upon western societies a very new opportunity. Chiefly - going backwards. If you follow the argument you're proposing, the 21st century will be one of *much* lower energy expenditures. And not by volition. The transition doesn't have to be cataclysmic; but it will be traumatic, regardless of whatever policies come into effect.At the point that this occurs, I suggest that "cherry picking" will come into effect. Those policies that have sought to provide incentives for smaller and more community based markets and workplaces will be the ones co-opted by political parties. I'd go on here, but I've no doubt you and the other unwashed can figure out the rest. Re financial returns: I hear that! Why Money Mart can't sell lottery tickets is beyond me, but I once won $25 on pull tabs down at the bar. Cool huh? Anyway, right now, I'm kind of hoping Al's in the process of getting back to me on some ethical questions, so I'm gonna have to let this go "as is"... thanks!

The "tools" that you speak of, fhb, is called money (you know, the type that gives regular people the low returns that KWD doesn't ask for when he goes to the bank - but which he is given anyways from the goodness of their hearts). The lefties are labelled "progressives" as if it was a bad thing by "regressives" - (the irony kills). Wealth is used by these enlightened folks (ie - the progressives) to progress society (ie - money is invested back into society to get that daycare and medicare you so yearn for from your progressive government). So essentially, the left see money as a tool; wherease, the right, overcome by "enlightened self interest" (boy, is that an oxymoron if I've ever heard one - almost as funny as "progressive conservative") see money as THE end - which is why they regress. The problem is that our little consumer-focused society has been convinced by the "unenlightened self-interested" that an investment in the betterment of the community is inefficient in our misguided goal of the mindless act of mass accumulation of wealth on which we can rot on.

Wow, you're right up there on current events fhb. I'm afraid that your looming energy crisis, which I take, in your youthful, pathetic way you are attempting to blame on another generation, will be eclipsed by a larger issue involving other energies, but I won't pull you too far off track. Oh, BTW, I was doing blue collar work, pulling graveyards, riding buses, freezing my ass off in northern winter camps and doing a hell of a lot of other manual labour not requiring I be degreed probably before you were born, so other than noting you too stumble around tripping over assumptions (it's very telling of your age),I won't expand on something so boring as my work history. Now, perhaps you might elaborate on your assertion: "And this time, try not to come back with something to hang yourself with." Sorry, but if you've wrapped me in a noose with your silly suggestions that I am to blame because we don't have universal daycare, or that workers don't have democracy on the shop floor or that you're still pissed off that santa didn't come last Christmas, I didn't notice and I really don't care. I'm just curious, I was born in the late '40s, so does that mean I'm to blame for all the shit since the '50s. How about only after the '70s when I was of legal age. That way you can't blame me for Nam or that messy little thing with the Koreans. Hey, I was only a toddler. But for the record, I worked to organize workers on the shop floor and a worked to get them good decent contracts so that they could put food on their tables and I have pushed, lobbied and worked to have universal daycare a part of the social safety net in Canada among other social failures I guess you can pin on me, if it will let you find understanding in this all-so confusing world. As the REAL barking mad fox channel noted, I do have another life besides trying to bring missile defence programs to a backyard near you. I also like to ride my bike as much as I can. No, sorry, it's not one of those gentrified triple-shock absorbing titanium gel seat types that could pass for a two-wheeled SUV, I'm sure you assume I protect my sagging ass (it isn't)on. No, just a rusting old '80s recycled beater thats got a bone hard seat and that'll probably give you a run for your money. Real energy efficient too for when you're latest futuristic reality hits home. You're not blaming that on me too, are you? But enough of the silly stuff. Hey, I like to have these discussions every so often so I hope you stick around Tyee for a bit, but please watch those assumptions, there so telling.

Sirin: Well, it seems we got past the name calling. Maybe we're getting somewhere. Or... maybe not. Please permit me to get personal.I consider myself pretty leftist (maybe even very leftist) - at least in the context most here would consider. The problem with that definition of "left" is its origins. The 'left' comes from the same frame of reference as the 'right'. Both are disciples of the enlightenment. Both are philosophical descendants of the school of reason. Both are western. They're not "global" in any historical, cultural or philosophical sense. They are 'tribal' (if you will) ideologies in that have proven to be practical and useful in the sense of allowing us (the west) to maximize our comfort and minimize the hardship of being an animal. Aspects of this 'school' are especially practical to our needs. But those aspects can become unwieldy. Physics (a discipline generally credited to the west) demonstrates that "reason" and its progeny (like logic) are fundamentally flawed. They are, for all intents and purposes, masks we've placed over that which we do not understand. They "work"- in that same sense of describing our relationships to our surroundings and therefore each other - but only to a point. Then they break down. The essence, as I see it, is to make it up as you go along. Which we did and describes where we are. That may sound like "waffling" to a lot of people - but only if you limit the terms of the definition. It is alarmingly easy to wander into metaphysics as we traverse the modern western concepts of "truth". Again to get personal, I am deeply convinced humanity will never be privy to the "secrets of the universe" and I'm quite greatful for that. I believe there are answers specific to a time and place which suffice to produce for the majority a sense of "worth" and "value". A "narrative" if you will. A "reason for being". It's where the dialectic meets the koan, or the shit hits the fan - take your pick. We have to make due. We have to use (and more importantly for future survival) and respect those resources that are available to us. I think we'll never know and we never will - but we owe it to the future to keep trying. That's where politics comes in. To me, a "democracy" is simply a sweeping generalization describing a time and place of like minded individuals. It is tolerant and respectful of dissent, but strong and willful enough to enforce its defining qualities - generalized consent. People are not free unless they first feel safe from harm. Anyway... now I'm about 6 Budweisers wiser, so I'm gonna let this rip and hope that I've made some measure of sense. It's pretty screwed up to be 'serious' and getting drunk at the same time. Finally, yeah shirin - The fact that Adbusters (whom I - as you might guess - also have issues with) can't run ads on network television telling people *not* to buy stuff is Swiftian to the nth. Over and out...

Allan.. where's those ethical questions I asked you about? Remember when you said I should ask questions after I *did* and then you bailed out by talking about your bicycle and the 'stuff you did' ?By the by: If you're looking for sympathy, it's between "shit" and "syphillis" in the dictionary. Hey - nobodies denying *you* did some work, it's the sum of the 'lefts' efforts that's had little effect. Do yourself a favour and keep your 'good works' to yourself. That way it won't embarass the Canadian left when it has to confess to how badly its failed the Canadian public - in spite of what individuals have accomplished on their own. And no - you're not off the hook for hypocritically accusing me of invoking someone else and administering the 'ethical' guidelines argument. Still waiting...

The "sum of the left's work" means that there are still functioning communities in existence. I haven't seen too many communities built on bar-stools.

My goodness, imagine if all the name calling and labeling was channeled into something Useful. People do not have to behave violently to achieve change, in fact it is very Counter productive, promotion of violence will be the end of independent media like the Tyee or others, and at every globalization summit its always the vandals that the media Love to film and distract the drooling masses away from intelligent objectors and their messages. We are winning, the right wing neo cons are just hanging on, We can be smarter and use creative Resistance. The markets are a fools game, if you like to gamble play the markets. DON'T PARTICIPATE IN THIS SYSTEM. If your worried about your retirement , your can downsize your home and use The proceeds or buy a rental property and rent it out or sell it on retirement, you have options other than this market. Don't wine and then participate. Some day to day action plans 1) Don't support these unethical firms , don't participate In the market. Buy local From independent folks. 2) Don't be a hypocrite, don't live in a way that compromises your values. (don't behave like a hyper consumer and you will have plenty left for retirement) 3) Refuse to go into debt 4) Lobby your local council and get involved. 5) Redemocratize the media, create your own or lobby the CRTC etc. 6) Write your local MP's , with a minority gov we can get this changed. Already the Fed Libs have been forced to have a free vote of weapons in space. 7) Showcase your lifestyle to others, 160 countries voted against militarism. Including lap dogs Canada and Mexico. Brazil , Venezuela, Argentina and others are trying new systems and are resisting NAFTA. If they can we can, get creative .

Now it's starting to make sense fhb. You've found Nirvana in an aluminum can filled with cheap American beer. When you sober up perhaps you could explain how I "hypocritically" accused you of invoking someone else.***"Oh and Allan... both Coyote and I are highschool drop outs." Now perhaps someone else wrote that statement, but it's under one of your monickers (fhb, Glistening Embers etc.), so it would seem you have a need to hide behind someone else when you spew that froth-lined prattle. BTW, Glistening Embers sounds like a Mel Brookes comedy, another sign of your inability to rise above cheap cunsumer culture. As I've advised before, try to inject a hint of humour or levity into your written thoughts, otherwise you come across as being a bit doctrinaire in ways you just wouldn't understand. In short, what I'm trying to say is try to be funny, because you aren't doing much of a job of offering anything serious. Your second whine that I administered the ethical guidelines argument is a slam-dunk. I did and if you have a problem with it go shopping at Walmart, let your eyes glaze over with that certain consumer lust and it'll all fade to a nice rose coloured hue for you. What's the issue here? Did I hurt your feelings by dumping on one of your investment choices? But it is good to read that I'm now on "the hook" rather than choking on that cyber-noose you were warning me darkly of yesterday. Ok, one more sugestion. Try to be more consistant. I don't mind you attacking me or attacking the left, because you are quickly morphing into my favorite right-wing flamers here given your willingness so say dumb things and then try to pretend you didn't.

"... Deal with it. I strongly believe the left needs a new positioning of its image - and fast." writes fhb.

There is actually, what I consider much good writing here. Though there is as well the indication of "generational issues", particularly between Allan and fhb, and likely even myself and fhb,where though, I sense, if one looks beyond the emotion and the heat, there is much more in common than upon what we differ.

Now, while there is much upon which I agree with you fhb, and I am aware of that, before we get to it, I want to talk first about that which we differ on, or think we do-, at least in our take on some things, and our view of how we have got to here and where we are going.

First, while I think "the left", (Labels being an annoyance and problemmatic very often, for sure, but necessarily useful, more often than not.) is in a deep crises-, rather than blaming particular individuals for it, who were doing what they thought was, and in its time and context WAS, in fact, good work, I tend to see the problem coming from quite another more "difficult" direction to get at, but more primary source. (Though there were and are individuals on the "left" out there, who WERE and ARE a part of the problem, no doubt, in my view.)

Where we are at in current society is actually a relatively new development, that has suddenly come upon the post WW2 world of prosperity and improved lives for "ordinary" people. Though it actually begins under Trudeau, oddly enough, which most folks forget, and the seeds were always there in the system, most folks don't really begin to get a glimpse of what was coming down the pipe of "advanced" capitalist society until the rise of Thatcher in England and Reagan in the U.S. In this country, we get our first indication of "the great change in direction" of capitalism with Social Credit under Bill Bennet jr., and the first of their Restraint Budgets and plans to lay the foundations for a new "leaner and meaner" society, as they self-described it. (The red flag that marks the beginning of the new period is, the "failed" Solidarity Strike of 1983.) Which "lean and mean society" we have since got, and continues to unfold, true to their word. All of which programme really gets rolling throughout "the international system", of course, with the unveiling of NAFTA, designed to "integrate" us into the "U.S. global market system", and the first great international meetings of the WTO, which lays the foundations of capitalism's own particular version of "globalization". All of which consequences we continue to live with and be impacted by.

And all of which caught much of the North American "left", having been caught up in the now "old" postwar "prosperity system", that came out of the postwar rebuilding of Europe and Japan-, having through that now "previous" period having come to conclude that the working class and capitalism were on a roll that would never end, suddenly come to an end. Only now, thus having "integrated" itself through the labour movement and the social democratic parties into the "labour management and social welfare system" of the capitalism of that time, the left has since been left reeling and rudderless, uncertain of which way to go or what it should do, if anything.

In addition to all that, which has only come upon us since the late 70s to early 80s, amidst all the other changes going on within the economy, and the wealthy moving through taxation and other official policy to protect their own share of the GNP, at working class expense, though the signs were actually there earlier, there was another outcome to that period of unprecedented capitalist "market expeansion" and "wealth creation". There is a collapse of the great "natural" systems which underpin all life on the planet going on as well, in the world's oceans, in the air, with climate and other strata of flora and fauna. All of which consequences arise, of course, out of the consequences, unforseen, of the greed and exploitation instincts and dynamics of the capitalist system as well.

The essential point being, I think, fhb, that while you are right, in the point which I quote in the lead to this post, about the need for a rapid new positioning of "the left", we are dealing here with a consequence and a process much bigger than that for which there is much point in blaming this or that individual, especially here on Tyee, where we tend to be much smaller fish anyway, at least I assume. There is a dynamic at work here, that is much bigger than can simplistically be got at. There is also a direction and a consequence to it, towards which we are all being steadily herded and driven, I think.

Still, however, that is a whole lot easier said than done. It's a huge problem. Where do we fucking start? By now "the left" is small in numbers and isolated, and yes, like you say, much ineffectual, which is frustrating. Many of us are old, and not as vigourous as we once were. There is a desparate need for an influx on new blood and life. (I won't talk about the NDP,at least right now, because there are still those clinging to it hopefully-, like a sinking ship, in my view. Though, we will see.)

Still, even historically, it is from these kinds of points in time and circumstances that great movements of people start out. We just don't see how, yet. For which it is really pointless for us all to be standing here pointing fingers at each other, at least all of the time. :-)

It will become clearer. I'm convinced of it. We just have to be patient some, keep working on the problem, and working, working as best we can towards a solution. It ain't going to be resolved by a few radicals and "progressives" on Tyee alone. There has to be a bigger movement of people happening out there than that, and a climate of receptiveness and yes, unfortunately, desparation-, or as my friend KWD says, "Pain."

I wish it was otherwise, but he's right.

There is a loose embryo of a community here at the Tyee. Yes, massive destructive forces sweep the planet, mowing down individuals and communities, but lots of practical ideas come up here about how to build and strengthen civilization, sometimes in the articles, sometimes in the discussions afterwards. It all expands.

The journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step. Get up folks and start walking. Lead by Example . In a Capitalist society (capital overrules the public good in most cases) Put another way, don't feed the system. Even the most conservative thinkers admit that with out the support of the so called middle and lower class the system cannot move forward. Email the federal finance minister and pretend to represent 1000's of voters telling him when the next election rolls around you will not support them if your CPP goes into these companies. Tell them that you spreading the word of how unethical and hypocritical their gov is being supporting these firms.

fhb, there is a familiar echo in your ‘voice’: Do Austin Tappen Wright and Islandia ring any bells? Anyway, as far as name calling goes, I’m always amazed that some folks think – actually let me rephrase that – that some folks believe it’s a one way street ...name calling that is ... and the recipient of the barb will suffer greatly. It’s quite sad actually. What they don’t realize is that name-calling, along with most distortional thinking actually creates more pain for the name caller than the intended victim. The caveat being that “the name” has to have some very painful personal significance otherwise they wouldn’t use it. Anyway, that’s a whole other story and way off topic. If you are interested, references to “peak” and “cataclysmic” are greatly expanded by Matt Savinar … do a Google search ... it’s worth reading. It kind of spells it out, very clearly.

"Even the most conservative thinkers admit that with out the support of the so called middle and lower class the system cannot move forward." wrote Stuart, in my opinion, in a very wise observation.

And that is the crux of it right now. The great mass of the working and other marginal class elements continue to act as if nothing has changed in society, and are continuing to act in ways that "tend" to support the system, overtly in elections by voting for the "open" ruling class candidates, and by still "accepting", however grudgingly, deunionization, and passively by supporting mindless "sports" and related "entertainment" preoccupations, while eschewing the politics of progressive and radical social change. They are cloistered and hunkered down in their mortgaged ticky-tacky houses and apartments, when they need to be on the street defending and fighting for their interests, and shaping lives that turn away from gluttonous consumerism and its preoccupations.

For so long as that is the dominant social reality, and their class and community organizations wither on the vine, the best that can be done, unfortunately, are the "little" things as Stuart outlines, by the "concious few".

And I know we are in a social, environmental, political and class situation where the war drums of the great masses should be beating, and the streets trembling under their feet, but alas-, they are at home, readying themselves for work tomorrow, at a job they hate and that hoses them, or studying calculus and ancient Greek history, dreaming of escaping the working class, worrying about their piling up bills or living their delusional dream of making it big on the stock market with their few penny stocks or non-earning "mutual funds", getting blitzed on a half doz beer on the weekend, and dreaming about fucking the neighbour's wife-, or having her in on a threesome, or they're watching Everybody Loves Raymond on the tube.

And eh, that's life. And it will remain so, on a downward curve, until the Brownshirts and their ilk here who support the Neocon and Neocon Lib cause, have caused them enough pain, that they are prepared to consider otherwise.

"The left" may be part of the problem, but it cannot but reflect the reality around it, in the final analysis. And until it has all unwound enough that it begins to cause a change in the way people are thinking, away from blind obedience and acceptance of ruling class ideas, and "enough" of them are ready to move anyway, to take the system on, we can do "some" things, and chat here on Tyee, but much more than that, we might as well stick our erect phalluses out the wide open window, and try to get our rocks off, fornicating with the world.

That said, all my instincts are still alive, screaming that we are on the cusp of changing possibilities here. Which is why I'm here, looking for signs that I am right, and hope is about to be reborn. This system really, really sucks. And I've always hated it-, even when it was pumping out the goods and it looked like the good times were going to go on forever. I hated the heirarchical classness of it, the mark an X on a ballot every four years, and fool yourself into thinking that it really made a differenceness of it. It just sucks, that's all. Like fhb and others here, I want it gone yesterday.

I think we are getting a little melodramatic here and underestimating ourselves as a society that - although presently misguided by our immature addiction to "things" - inherently want to do things the "right" way if we given a choice that didn't force us to give up our addiction. It is both a lack of vision as well as choice that makes people so passive and helpless - can you believe that most don't think chucking that yogourt container in the garbage instead of the blue box is degrading our environment - they just don't think. It is not part of the present programming of the lot of us. At present we are sick - too big - too fat - and we don't know how to curb our appetites and start moving - but I am naive enough to think that we could change and want to change if we knew how. Like any addiction, the first part of recovery is recognizing there is a problem - and that this problem is serious and potentially deadly for our well-being. Those who have already come to grips with the fact there is a problem stare agape at those still in denial. I also don't believe that those with the "sight" are helpless - they - or we - have the responsibility to lead the blind to the light at the end of the tunnel one step at a time. I am a life scientist and was recently assaulted with an email from one of the major industry providers of our field of biotech and nanotechnology. The gist of this spam was essentially a call for researchers to send in their praise for the new "disposable" lab - easy clean-up, faster, easier. I was absolutely disgusted, and then amazed that this supposedly foward thinking industry would not even consider the unsustainability of what they were proposing and the danger to the environment and life with the dangerous levels the toxic reagents we use in assays - some even radioactive - not to mention the mounds of unrecyclable plastic in the form of polystyrene which a typical lab goes through like tissue in a day. I wrote a letter to the editor of the biotech industry journal that wanted to glorify such a direction for life science research expressing my concerns about the lack of any foresight in their proposal. I was surprised to receive a letter inviting a full opinion piece they would publish that would be included in their upcoming issue for industry discussing the new vision for a disposable lab. I was told they were even grateful to hear such a voice expressing the other side of the coin - that does not get heard in industry papers - and my viewpoint will be a part of discussion forum. I was thankful for the opportunity and even gratified that I have played a part in shaping the way industry will design products to suit our needs. I shared my victory with an acquaintance of mine who is a senior engineer at BC Hydro - and he asked if he could circulate my article to the Sustainability Overseers at BC Hydro because many of the points I raised were the same issue they were currently grappling with. That one article has gone on to have a dominos effect. It is the process of dialogue, education, alternatives, and cooperation showing people how it can be done and the reason why it NEEDS to be done. So perhaps you don't need to hang anything out the window as Coyote suggested (especially since we be not all so endowed, being of the female persuasion); and perhaps the "progressive" voice is not as ineffective as it first appears from the surface - it works at the subliminal level. I am confident we will break from our sickness - if we don't, we'll simply die of heart failure if not overindulgence itself.

Shirin, the world IS already dying of heart failure. The process began several centuries ago, but the death throes are easy enough to see with all the wars, the environmental degradation, the enslavement, and the desperate looting. Have you known even a single day of world peace in your lifetime? Throughout it's always been about people who have the heart, the will and the intelligence to serve a larger community than themselves. That's always been the struggle.

Shirin, I congratulate you in having the strength and commitment to take on such insidious attitudes. It is exactly what this world would require of those who have managed to advance their educations in the various sciences if we as humans are to survive our own gluttony, greed and ignorance. Unfortunately, and I hope I'm overly pessimistic, The REAL barking mad fox channel is also onto a truth that is becoming all too real as we naively foul and trash our environment all in the name of "progress." Your tale reminded me of the Health Canada scientists who also stood up to the quackery of industry, but learned a different lesson than you, one that should have prompted any rational Canadian to demand a complete ouster of the industry-compliant bureaucrats who run that ministry. Massive ice shelves are breaking off ice caps at both of earth's poles, glaciers are all but a memory below the 50th parallel. Even if we could stop overfishing, we can't do a damned thing to lure our fish back into their spawning grounds because the once glacier cooled rivers like the Fraser are too warm for the salmon to enter. DDT, that scientific "miracle" of the late '40s and early '50s, which was going to end the world's battle with damaging insects, is now a component of virtually every woman's breast milk. Cancer has become the mine canary of our existance, yet we continue to see it as a phenomina that just needs a bit more researh funding to get rid of. A visitor from a less developed planet might ask why terrorists are apparently seen as the greatest threat to earth's humanity, after enduring a trip through the thickening layers of pollutants visible in our skies. Now that we are coming to the end of our supply of cheap energy costs, what is the predominant response? It's war, hatred, more environmental degredation and a renewed reliance on the vestiges of our stone-age occult beliefs. About the only constant I see in this sad, sick reality is that some people are continuing to amass vast fortunes, while the rest of us pay for it with reduced standards of living and health. I don't know if we are too late, but I do know that we are doing almost nothing to tackle this reality. Yes, we come with with accords like Kyota, but then the same politicans who hog the headlines praising this enlightened international cooperation, return home and sink into their partizen selves, offering lip service to the crisis as they tend to the business of lobbyists out to improve corporate profits.

Thanks for your Posts, good comments but I tend to lean towards Shirin, We with social conscience have the facts and know the story...How our habits are unsustainable and how corporations operate in many instances against the public good. We know this and yes it is very depressing, yes it Seems like a uphill battle, and yes it almost seems like things will never change. If you Feel defeated and that things are hopeless than we have already lost. Its funny , I felt so Marginalized with my views on Iraq and my anti establishment leans, I showed up at the Anti War protest when Norm Chomsky spoke and hey 45,000 other people shared my values ( cared about militarism, social justice etc) 45,000 beautiful peace loving people. I see progress in this world when 50 million protested before the war even started, when 160 countries did not sing On under intense pressure to, when Kofi Annan called the invasion illegal . When Spain lost control of power due to their participation. Coyote and others you are the majority, the ruling Elite are few and we are many and we are strong. Canadians kept us out of Iraq and not the gov, don’t get depressed, the right wing elites have a plan of action and are very positive about getting their way. Lets not make it to easy, don't beat up the drooling uninformed, uneducated masses. The last fireworks in Downtown Van attracted over 400,000 fellow citizens to the harbor. What power the media has, We need to take back the airwaves that belong to us, lobby the CRTC , start our own or at min support co op radio and the tyee and others, Most people are moral, most Will not support social injustice, people just need the info, lets get it out to them in a large way. The ruling party knows this fact and keep their greedy hands on the levers of public info,We need to shape the way we want our world to be. 1) Change our own habits, 2) Take back the airwaves, (in most European countries huge unions own major papers and radio stations) 3) Hold Gov and the mainstream media accountable , Like today , I am going to email all major radio and TV outlets asking them when they will report in a proper in-depth way that the Fed Libs voted down having a public debate on weaponization of space. 4) Like Shirin, get inside , get educated and raise your voice.

The documentary the The Corporation was a wonderful look into the corporate world and how It functions. It was shot in BC, sad it only made 2.2 mil...Its distribution was very limited And its such an important film. Lets rent local theatres and run these productions at a cut rate, are their not some downtown we could rent.....http://www.cinematheque.bc.ca/now.html is one.. Just an idea...Maybe we could break even on concessions and donations on top of the cut rate entry ...Just an idea...

Stuart, I bet you're wondering why no one else thought of your great idea first -- after all, Michael Moore had so much success with grassroots theatre screenings. Indy films/docs are popular with intellectuals; people who possess this wonderful thing called 'curiosity' and a thirst for new experience, other forms of thought and belief, who are unafraid of the unfamiliar. The Corporation was a favourite in my area thanks to the FLIKs Moving Picture Festival. It also got excellent promotion through alternative media -- the Guardian, Salon.com, Great West Media which runs independent papers throughout the prairies, and a number of other places, as I recall. So it's not as though people didn't get the chance to see it.

The belief which allows you to dismiss most of our society as 'Drooling, uninformed, uneducated masses'is part of the problem. They AREN'T uneducated or uninformed; they are they are selectively educated and informed and have a vested interest in staying that way. As for 'drooling', the most closed-minded folk I've ever come across would look at anyone with the slightest eccentricity in their appearance or grooming as life-threatening disease carriers, so let's drop the 'look at those stinking retards' attitude please. It just perpetuates that ugliness.

Finally, since you seem to like movies, would you consider renting a wonderful old Hitchcock adaptation of "Rebecca"? Or better yet, see if you can borrow a copy of the original book by Daphne du Maurier from your public library. I'll describe some of it: The narrator, a young woman of such average looks, intelligence and bleak prospects that the author doesn't even bother to name her, hooks up with a wealthy English squire "with a past," and settles into life as the new Mrs. Max on his big estate. Strange things happen and all of a sudden, she is shocked -- SHOCKED -- to learn that the first Mrs. Max was murdered, by Mr. Max. As it turns out, Mr. Max has a great 'justification' for what he did, so the Narrator finds herself in the position of deciding whether to accept her husband's self-justification and protect him, or eschew his sense of entitlement and send him to prison. What do YOU think she decides to do? I think most of our society is in the same position as Mrs. Max; that's why I recommend the film.

"Like Shirin, get inside , get educated and raise your voice." writes Stuart.

Just to prove that we can't agree on everything.

Mostly though, I think it is a difference of viewpoint that derives from one's position within the working class itself, with academics and professionals tending to view the system through somewhat more charitable, as in rose coloured eyes, than us set upon lower rungs.Whereas,in reality, life and "the system" are more complex than their tendency to, I hesitate, "simplistic" solutions. As contradictory as that sounds, or one might expect from "educated" folks.

The reality is, like capitalism won't allow for ALL of us to be as wealthy as the ruling class, whatever the work ethic platitudes dispensed by them to the mere working class mortals. And this is so, because their wealth, in the final analysis can only be garnered to themselves, by gathering up through the ownership and profit system, what would be otherwise somebody else's share of the total product. (When they take obscenely too much, poverty escalates.When they are relatively "more reasonable" poverty may tend to mitigate some.) From capitalism's view of the world, through the eyes of its ruling class, somebody has to be in a constant state of need, or we would all be running around like the ruling class, trying hopelessly and endlessly, until we all fell down, to find some poor sap that didn't exist, because we are all too "educated, boring from within privileged positions, and raising our voices", to actually perform the labour that we could exploit a part of his share of. Labour without capital would survive quite well, thank you very much. Capital, or the ruling class without labour would either starve eventuallty or be reduced to labour. Which tells you something about where the wealth really comes from, or its actual source.

So, Stuart and Shirin, as good and well meaning liberal folks you are, on this issue quite frankly, you are full of shit. For the great mass of society, and not just those who by good fortune, opportunity, or even dint of succesfell labour by previous generations who did without so that ye might succeed, somehwere along the line, what is actually needed is a solution to the problem of this internal "dynamic" need of capitalism for a relatively fixed class structure. For without that boys and girls, assuming it was even possible that we all take Shirin's and Stuart's advice, you wouldn't have capitalism anymore, but what I have described above.

So, nice try and wishful thinking, to which some "liberal", typically relatively privileged elements are prone, even thee be the exceptions, but I suggest, that out there somewhere, there has to be a solution to capitalism and its class controlled system of distributing society's economic product. Period.

You see, I suspect, you folks think there is almost something wrong with "physical", as in ordinary "grunt" labour, that quite naturally is resolved only by education and "achieving some higher status", as a rightful solution to these kinds of "material" and "social moral" dilemma. And as only right and proper it should be.

Wellll, I differ a tad. I like, read my lips, like simple manual labour, driving trucks, cats, bulldozers and loaders, herding cattle and planting crops, and fixing rigs. And frankly, I think I'm as educated as you folks. So, I'll look for a solution to the problems of this social and class dilemma from my own perspective, within the strata niche I occupy in the working class.

Meanwhile, we can, where we agree, work together. Where we don't, we'll differ and separate company. All in the hope that, out there somewhere in time and the evolution of society and class consciousness, we can bridge the practical gulf that divides us.

And I may sound bitter and harsh in some of my responses to you here, but I am not. I really do understand the current divisions within society, both between and within classes. I even think you are good folks. We just have this problem of the different positions we are looking at capitalist society from-, with me seeing something different in it than thee. :-)

A good day. I'm off to the meadows, to breathe natures air, and watch the cranes all flying south in their huge and raucous V formations.

And Shirin, feel free to stick your 'gina out the window, anytime. :-D

The beauty of life is that, yes, we did start start dying the day we were born - both in terms of us as individuals and as the experiment called humanity. We embody both the worst and the best of what we are and we continue our struggle to find equilibrium. I see those "virtues" espoused by various faiths as not so much a moral doctrine - but as a trait that would help us defeat that part of us that makes us ill. Gluttony, greed and all are cancerous traits that we will have to deal with until we do leave this planet because it is an inherent part of the human character. Basis of Conrad's Heart of Darkness. It is not so much that we don't know what does us harm as a society - even smokers know that they are increasing their likelihood of an unpleasant demise - it is just that the threat of the consequence is not near or severe enough at the moment to induce change or provide motivation for it. My father, the aging sportsman with the belly who loves his steak (ironic, as I am a vegetarian...) did not change his ways until AFTER his heart attack. People with Type II diabetes don't alter their diet until after they have become ill. We are just witnessing on a global scale what each of us individually grapples with in our daily lives. Sometimes our conscience rules our egos - and sometimes it doesn't. Looking at the character of "humanity" as a whole right now - we appear pretty self-indulgent and down-right destructive (all those moral warnings have not succeeded in mending our ways) - but mayhap we have yet to mature - and mayhap that is our goal to work towards self-betterment rather than self-destruction.

Okay, you got me Mad Fox , I should not refer to people as uneducated drooling masses, my Frustration leaks to the surface when I see my fellow citizens to lazy to go a step further Than their TV set for info . Regardless, I still believe most people are moral and with enough Truth perceptions change. Why do you think our media is so censored, they know how people will React to dead and nasty images(our populace should be made uncomfortable from time to time). The media is a major tool for change, we must find a way to take it back. And Coyote, you should Read Democracy for the Few http://www.michaelparenti.org/DemocracyForFew.html I know how the System works, I know how capital flows and I know that "I" as others are having their Labor skimmed. Good read, check it out.. You should be aware who your friends are, telling people Their full of it does not exactly build bridges, Get Educated means becoming informed and acting On it, it does not mean everyone go out and get a degree to effect change. Its easy to sit On the fringe and pretend unless the entire systems changes tomorrow there is no hope. WE HAVE THE POWER, I have done many jobs and some have been hard labor so please don't make everyone with A opinion defend themselves, it becomes very tiresome. The system is weak and is starting to show leaks, You can be part of something or sit on the sidelines, the only way to change the flow Is to intercept the ball and kick it right out of the fucking park.

"People with Type II diabetes don't alter their diet until after they have become ill." wrote Shirin.

Which is actually a good metaphor for current society, such as we have been discussing. The same too, can be said for the larger society, which needs to undergo a dramatic change in structure and lifestyle as well, to deal with a serious global illness affecting its functioning at many different levels.

What is unfortunate, though as you and Stuart suggest, folks with an understanding need to do what they can and try to move things, is that the sickness is likely going to be extremely advanced and the risks unavoidable, before the main body of folks start to move and act. I accept that. It is likely true.

Good works alone, however, by well intended folks, is not likely going to be enough-, and that's a fact as well. And I take my Friday bag of groceries to the Food Bank, and participate in all the feel good touchie feelie things too, but I'm not delusional about the value of that over the long haul. And that is part of the point as well; not being delusional about "good works". Folks need to get up off their asses and start fighting for themselves.

And Stuart. Sorry I offended you, brother. That was not my intent. I am not the most etiquettely polished person in the world. Like I say, I know you are a good man, and well meaning. We just don't or won't always see eye to eye.

And if I offended you Shirin, I'll close the window. Okay? (See, And Stuart.)

Stuart, your acknowledgement of your own accountability to society is commendable - but we just have to let everyone catch up. I think you are the type who may enjoy being part of the Dialogue forums at SFU harbour centre - you may want to get yourself on the list if interested in any of their events - such as the upcoming dialogue on: The Efficient Society: Is an efficient society a caring society? with Joseph Heath, Associate Professor of Philosophy, University of Toronto Monday, November 8, 2004, 6:00 - 8:00 pm (Dinner at 6:00 pm, followed by dialogue) Joseph Heath is the author of The Efficient Society: Why Canada is as Close to Utopia as it Gets. Each year, the United Nations Human Development Index ranks Canada as one of the best countries on earth in which to live. In his book, and at this dinner, Professor Heath explains how we got that way. Download further details here: http://www.sfu.ca/dialogue/WhoCares_Heath.pdf The cost of the dinner and dialogue is $50 (includes GST). To register, please call Brenda at 604.268.7925 or email

. The Centre for Dialogue Online Library is up and running! It contains a database of articles, journals and publications available at the Simon Fraser University libraries. Searchable subjects include dialogue, mediation and conflict resolution, communication theory and linguistics, dialogue and teaching, democratic governance/political participation and conversation analysis. These publications may also be available through inter-library loans at your local library. Try out the database at: http://www.sfu.ca/dialogue/researchlinks.htm

I respect Stuart's comment and I think Shirin is one of those truly rare individuals with real integrity. Still, Coyote that is one helluva of a good piece on the true value of labour.

As you say, the ruling class conveniently overlooks that if they could not call upon their workers to do their physical work they would be reduced to labour themselves... or eventually die...quickly revealing the true source of the wealth. The ruling class always needs someone, indeed relies on someone to tie their shoelaces to keep the class system alive.

This is a quote from the brilliant but often misunderstood D.H. Lawrence from a series of essays in "Phoenix ll"( written 1929): "The one thing we don't sufficiently consider, in considering the march of human progress, is also the very dangerous march of human feeling that goes on at the same time and not always parallel...and one of the greatest changes that has ever taken place in man and woman is this revulsion from physical effort, physical labour and physical contact, which has taken place within the last thirty years...nearly all physical activity is repellent to modern man...the aim is to abstract as far as possible. In the abstract we sail ahead to bigger business and better jobs and babies bred in bottles and food in tabloid form. It is almost a pure abstraction, a few switches and no physical contact, no "dirt" which is the inevitable result of physical contact...Mankind en bloc gets more fastidious, more nice, more refined, and more unfit for 'dirty work'." This is Lawrence's plea against what he saw as a growing contempt for the physical labour that both man and woman once enjoyed becoming perverted by the social class system belief of "getting on in life" and "moving up" - resulting in the once-honoured physicality of labour becoming "dirty work" for "a dirty working class". Though 1929, prophetic as hell.

Stop thinking and end your problems.

The following is, verbatum, what I wrote to CPP, and I would appreciate your ideas: Just a quick comment on the recent change in CPP investment strategy: Investing is possibly the most powerful action a government is capable of. To, therefore, invest public funds in 15 of the world's top 20 arms manufacturers as part of the (questionable) shift from bonds to stocks, regardless of the forecast return, misrepresents my priorities and beliefs much more strongly than would a hypothetical new law lifting all restrictions on arms trade in Canada. If it is necessary, for the security of Canada's aging population, to invest CPP monies in foreign companies which manufacture products which obviously lead to suffering, and would thus be illegal for most private citizens in Canada to purchase, such as assault weapons and missiles, I suggest investing in Afghani opium, or its value added derivative heroine. Granted, there is some degree of political instability presently in Afghanistan, but it's bound to improve due to the noble efforts of Canadian and other peacekeepers. Afghanis have been growing this crop for years. They obviously know what they're doing, and investment returns would be staggering due to the marketability of the products, the high sale prices and low (especially with labour and land as cheep as they are in Afghanistan) costs. From a moderately ethical point of view, the negative effects of this product are limited to self selecting populations, as opposed to the effects, felt by otherwise selected populations, of products produced by arms manufacturers. We may not have the luxury of enacting a "hyper-ethical" point of view, which would insist against investment in any production of products of obvious suffering or illegal activity, and, if not, we should maximize profits sensibly.

Yeah, that'll get them to take you seriously mike.

I wrote the following to CPP, moments ago, and appreciate your ideas. Just a quick comment on the recent change in CPP investment strategy: Investing is possibly the most powerful action a government is capable of. To, therefore, invest public funds in 15 of the world's top 20 arms manufacturers as part of the (questionable) shift from bonds to stocks, regardless of the forecast return, misrepresents my priorities and beliefs much more strongly than would a hypothetical new law lifting all restrictions on arms trade in Canada. If it is necessary, for the security of Canada's aging population, to invest CPP monies in foreign companies which manufacture products which obviously lead to suffering, and would thus be illegal for most private citizens in Canada to purchase, such as assault weapons and missiles, I suggest investing in Afghani opium, or its value added derivative heroine. Granted, there is some degree of political instability presently in Afghanistan, but it's bound to improve due to the noble efforts of Canadian and other peacekeepers. Afghanis have been growing this crop for years. They obviously know what they're doing, and investment returns would be staggering due to the marketability of the products, the high sale prices and low (especially with labour and land as cheep as they are in Afghanistan) costs. From a moderately ethical point of view, the negative effects of this product are limited to self selecting populations, as opposed to the effects, felt by otherwise selected populations, of products produced by arms manufacturers. We may not have the luxury of enacting a "hyper-ethical" point of view, which would insist against investment in any production of products of obvious suffering or illegal activity, and, if not, we should maximize profits sensibly.

i tried to post a message, twice, and haven't seen it listed. If this is due to time of day, and it pops up twice tomorrow, please forgive the redundancy.

lynn - I think the trait of integrity is common amongst Jon Stewart fans - but I confess I don't get on my high horse to sacrifice myself for the good of humankind - I do it for the high I get from proving all those wrong who keep saying "it won't make a difference what one person does" - people continue to underestimate themselves. You can quote Lawrence - and I will quote my fave 17th Century poet - John Donne - "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent...Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

Thanks Shirin, you know me to well. I love to debate and learn from others. This is a good Sound board to take advantage off. I may check into the Harbor center , thanks for the Lead. I sometimes listen to the Harbor Center lectures on CBC ideas. No hard feelings Coyote, Your posts are always well thought out. Diversity of opinion Is what makes the Tyee rich, to bad we don't get more Coyotes on the mainstream media, Hint, hint, just imagine a society where The majority's opinion was heard. What would our papers look like. Currently their are 4 pages of sketchy censored news, 12 pages sports, 4 pages weather, 13 pages ads, 4 pages stock quotes, 15 pages entertainment. Just imagine a ten page article on missile defense. It could happen( just Got news that my brother in law was laid off, the plant he was working at is moving to Mexico As they were getting to many environmental fines doing business in Canada) Oh and Mike, good for You for writing a letter,,, Some advise , I know your joking but never advocate something illegal in a letter to government. Once you do this they cannot put it on a public file, my advise is To bluff them, tell them you and your fictitious group represent 1000's of voters and will target Federal liberal ridings if they don't change their policy. Direct your letter to the finance minister and CC copies of the letter to media outlets. In short overestimate your #'s , quote your concern and ask for action or else they will risk losing power... Positive change has never occurred in comfort or just an act of Goodwill, it’s the peoples resistance that has brought All positive change.... Example --BC Ferry workers just nailed a 7 yr contract, Wow and after they Misbehaved so much LOL)

"This is Lawrence's plea against what he saw as a growing contempt for the physical labour that both man and woman once enjoyed becoming perverted by the social class system belief of "getting on in life" and "moving up" - resulting in the once-honoured physicality of labour becoming "dirty work" for "a dirty working class". Though 1929, prophetic as hell." wrote Lynn.

Thank you, Lynn. You already know that you are one of the folks here to whom I acknowledge that I feel the closest to philosophically. (But I value the views of many others of you no less, such as Stuart and Shirin.)

But also, I feel a certain kinship with fhb, who has amused me with his comment, "Stop thinking and end your problems." Ah, were it so simple, eh? :-) But really, you see, I think fhb, while he may wish he could stop thinking, the wellspring of his anger, can't, anymore than I. :-D I'm glad you haven't abandoned us, brother.

With apologies to John Donne....And there among the froth and foam, stand the hopeful, alone, defiant, creating realities apart from the mainstream. And some succeed. The river of humanity moves in response. But illusions of strength and success are ephemeral. Now rushing along its new course, towards the inevitable, the main flow has left the immutable, concealed from the unsuspecting, or exposed for all to ponder.

Well, it did take fhb a lot of words on this thread, a lot of ranting, to finally arrive at "stop thinking and end your problems." Which goes to prove that none of us are perfect, least of all, me... and all of us (even you fhb) are just a touch hypocritical. In the immortal words of Mae West: "I was once Snow White but I drifted..."

oh.. I've made an oopsie. Anger? LOLOLOL... The "left " and the "right" are born from the same mother.... "Reason". And not one of you - not a one - had the tools to touch that claim. No one felt compelled to disagree. Fascinating if one thinks about it. Perhaps the "School of Reason" needs a new curriculum. Lynn moved in closest to my (LOL) "anger", when she revealed the hypocrisy. That's a byproduct of words posing as reality. Then again, it's *all* posturing, I submit. Whatever. If anyone could laugh at the convolutions and intellectual acrobatics taking place to cast ourselves, our beliefs, or our "allegiances" in the most favourable light, it would certainly be Lao Tzu - who said: "Stop thinking and end your problems."

This forum has me convinced that the Tyee should host a Philosopher's Cafe at least by-weekly (like the Conversation Cafe of the Common Ground). Give the fingers a bit of rest - and some "organic fair trade coffee" or green tea as drug of choice.... more wishful thinking as those who'd provide the most fun hide behind aliases and may be relunctant to espouse unfavourable views - unless it takes place on hallowe'en...

I'll be the one who won't stop laughing. They say it's contagious. Also, I've never met a philosopher I couldn't outrun, so there's that to consider too.

fhb - maybe I'll be the first, though two things are debatable... 1) that one would consider me a philosopher, and 2) that I'd consider you worth chasing ;)

heh. I wrote about 'outrunning' but I didn't say whether I was chasing or being chased. and yeh... if you think, "Why am I here?", I'm sure that qualifies you as a 'philosopher' (or a transit user). :-P

Update: The Lions couldn't beat the spreat at home on Friday and The Seahawks blew it outright. Maybe my money's better off with the fund manager who stole it in the first place. Unofficial Tyee poll: What would you do with your CPP contributions if they let you manage it?

For the poll query: I don't let them manage it - my plan for old age (while leaving my conscience in tact): 1) invest in myself (ie education updates from now to eternity); 2) stow away the good old fashioned way (lock stock and barrel); 3) invest in society via the Social Leaders funds, WOF, and some ethical funds - and 4) invest in a solid roof over my head (and others).

Shirin, your suggestions are excellent.

"2) stow away the good old fashioned way (lock stock and barrel)" All very good answers, shirin, thank you. does number 2 mean that you're just saving the cash, in otherwords, investing in the Canadian Dollar?

who knew a scientist would be giving notes on investing without selling your soul to the devil (or the conscienceless capitalist) - and then actually being told she is doing something relatively decent? Wonders never cease... No Braden, although the Canadian dollar may in itself be a thing rising in value, my number 2 alluded to me actually locking up the sums and letting them mature at a respectable rate without risk from market volatility. If you really have a heart of gold - VanCity has great banking/savings/investment options such as Community Investments. The woman who launced the ethical funds of Real Assets (Deb Abbey) - has written a great book on how one can invest and be credited for investments that work for the betterment of society rather than work to demolarize the land and its people called Global Profit and Glogal Justice - you may be able to download most if not all of her book from the Real Assets website. Ethical investing was a real point of curiosity for me over the summer and I had collected all the sites and info I could on how I could invest in companies that look for environmental solutions and are aware of their ecological footprint - while actually making wise decisions about securing my retirement - 40 years or so from now - might as well make my life pleasant while living it (call me selfish).

I would invest the money in social housing, Have Habitat for Humanity run the program and house Our poor who are living in horrible conditions being extorted by greedy landlords and having The pleasure of living in their basements. Have Habitat administer a nation wide housing project Based on the needs of each region. Just think of it, Shirin, Think of the business plan We Use only Canadian Lumber and support our own building industries while the US has sanctions On us. Don't want our lumber who cares, we need it for the next 10 yrs in Canada. 2) The new Home mortgages are held by the bank of Canada. In other words , all the interest from the new Home owners is collected as revenue for the Gov not the big banks, Every dollar invested in CPP social housing gets a return of 100% or more plus your hosing the poor. Lets see A mutual fund advisor do that. 3) The poor now have equity to invest and own something in society making them more productive. Any takers , email me back your interest. Lets do it. If helping the poor makes money it will no longer be a problem. PS--ANYONE WHO KNOWS ANYONE IN SURREY PANORAMA RIDGE SHOULD MAKE SURE THEY GET TO THE POLLS TOMORROW, THIS IS IMPORTANT, WITH THE BC FIBERALS WITH ALL THE MEDIA IN HAND WE NEED ALL THE SUPPORT WE CAN GET....