On the Seattle Times comments.............

............there is a simple "thumbs-up" or thumbs-down" icon one can press, or closer to home, the straight has a "agree" or "disagree" icon.

LOL!

The Tyee independent? That's pretty funny!

Genuinely exciting. I hope

Genuinely exciting. I hope it continues to go the way of Salon, and enable you to press on a commentor's (note: not just the reporter's) name and link to all her/his former posts (and even to their website, if they wish). There is a way of expanding on how "readers" get recognized, that still keeps them very much distant and at bay. (I, for one, am curious to know if the new media is beginning to switch back to a kind of old-style distancing, but in a way where they can pretend the opposite.)

Might also want to encourage more of your writers to join in the conversations. Recently had a lively conversation at OpenSalon where Joan Walsh, Kerry Lauerman, and the writer being discussed--Scott Rosenberg--all joined in. Only, they've got to know that once they're in the conversation, they can't just be there to settle things down--don't make it seem a children's playpen ("now, now, children, settle down, what the real situation is is this . . . ), which too many editors are wont to do in these situations.

Link to OpenSalon conversation: http://open.salon.com/blog/sandra_no_longer_miller/2009/07/05/wherefore_open_salon

No need to get rid of 'Best Comments.'

Just change the default to 'All Comments.'

G West

Your concern for new users is unwarranted.
"Best Comments" spares them from having to wade through the occasional 10,000 word dust up that happens from time to time although not so much recently.

@snert

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Many times I have noticed new users chagrined at the 'disappearance' of their first comment either post multiple copies of the same thing or come to the not unlikely conclusion that they've been redacted for some unknown reason. Because the system defaults to Best Comments there will always be problems for tyros who don't recognize the need to select 'All Comments' and never sign out. Sticking with All Comments also gives readers the real 'flavour' of the place, a sense of the actual life of the commenting pool and not just the 'sterile' idea of what constitutes 'someone's' idea of a best comment.

One hopes, although one wonders at times, that most Tyee readers are mature enough to form their own judgments about such things.

The whole idea of rating comments in such a formal and time consuming way is nuts. It creates nothing but busy work for editors monitoring and choosing "Best" from "All" rather than spending their time reading comments and enforcing the so-called commenting rules which purport to outlaw 'personal' and 'offensive' remarks.

In fact, monitoring does no such thing.

Frequently, egregious violations of the rules sit for hours if not days before being edited - all the while permitting the level of outrage felt by the targets of such spite to escalate into something far more vile and abusive.

For example, Rod Smelser, who, I've just learned, has had his account 'blocked' for mildly responding to the offensive and personal remarks directed at him by another poster. These remarks came from the same poster who comments anonymously (unlike Smelser) and viciously at Tyee and who, in fact, rapidly resumed commenting there subsequent to a plainly futile effort to block his access by simply adding 'redux' to his moniker. That poster has, after his renewed commenting at Tyee was brought to the attention of editors, subsequently disappeared - one wonders for how long.

The point is that the Best Comments wrinkle doesn't work, complicates things needlessly and, seemingly, prevents the kind of active and sensible moderation that is apparently necessary on sites where users have the option of posting behind a cloak of anonymity.

And I think it's especially unfortunate when a thoughtful and intelligent person like Rod, who does not hide behind a nom de plume, is removed from the Tyee community for, essentially, nothing - while others, who contribute little but vitriol and ad hominem nonsense, are not the ones being ruled out of order.

Sadly, Rod is far from the first person to have been drummed out of the Tyee 'community' for arbitrary and petty reasons.

I agree with G West's

I agree with G West's rational. Salon.com very recently abandoned Best Comments, as well.

rationale

rationale

Best comments, and other complaints

Thanks for the critiques and debate everyone. We won't be dispensing with Best Comments because we believe it allows two ways to read comments on The Tyee, giving visitors a choice. And we've noted that the comment culture has improved on The Tyee since we started the practice.

Regarding who gets banned from commenting on The Tyee and why, it's simple. Continued and apparently determined violation of our standards. Which you can read here.

http://thetyee.ca/Comments/FAQ/#7

GWest is correct that we don't pounce on some violations of our standards within minutes. And sometimes even days. We wish we could. However, we simply don't have the people and resources to monitor every comment as it is immediately posted. Our entire editorial staff -- preparing stories as well as moderating comments -- is, ahem, two, with some help around the edges from interns and the occasional part-timer. So please bear with our imperfections.

We are very grateful and appreciative of the thought and effort and good will that the great majority of Tyee commenters contribute to the threads, which makes this site immeasurably better.

Please do take into account that we on the editing and moderating side are few, and human.

Dare to dream

At Salon.com, I believe the editorial staff there would assess the culture as having improved, once they got rid of anonymous posting. But I've seen some discussion there about it lately, unearthed when Salon launched their new flag-as-offensive feature (is this where we're all going, then?--alas, I thought we're now supposed to start going Free Range, again), where a number of posters said that everything had become a bit more tame, a bit less interesting and surprising, with the change. Some of us really like the fray, the surprise, the untamed, and fear that if editors had their way, if the editorial temperment allowed too much play, it'd all start seeming on message in a way, say, our friend Jeffrey J. would approve of--which is why I heartily agreed with G West's rationale for getting rid of (ostensible) "best" comments. (Of course, I've noticed that what I would consider some of my most controversial but still best stuff, is of the kind that will be kept off the civilized stream. If I keep it tame, and a bit [for me] neutered, I know it's on the preferred path. On second thought, if we keep at it, maybe we could encourage a name change of "all comments" to "unacceptable, i.e., scandalous, likely un-pc, and near libelous, comments"--Click here only if you think you're ready to leave the parlour behind for the really wilely, wild west! You could use a six-shooter icon, or maybe--even if a bit incongruous--a pirate ship! Yay!--Who doesn't love pirates! Who doesn't love the WIld West! Yay!

This isn't the Wild West

Patrick,

We can't gamble the Tyee's existence on creating a forum for 'near libelous' statements. Nor do we wish to create a forum for racist and sexist comments, or personal insults directed at our writers or other commenters. We wish to create a forum where many feel comfortable and welcome to comment. And we acknowledge that personal vitriole, and racist and sexist comments do cause harm.

So now we're clear, I guess, on how differently we perceive the comments threads on The Tyee.

PS. Last time I looked, anonymous comments were still allowed on Salon. What are you referring to?

I also just visited and note that 'editor's choice' is still an option on the Salon site. Again, what causes you say they have abandoned it?

But, David

This:

...a forum for racist and sexist comments, or personal insults directed at our writers or other commenters... is what is and has been de facto 'encouraged' by inconsistent and inequitable, not to say, tardy, monitoring and editing.

The Rod Smelser example being just the latest of this... made more egregious by the fact that Rod, unlike many (excluding Patrick of course), who actually posts his real name has been victimized more than most.

In this incident the treatment he received - and for which he was subsequently 'blocked' makes the validity of the point even more apparent.

Again, in my view.

As to the 'best comments' controversy I'll leave it at what I've already written - something, from my observations, which appears to reflect the views of a great many others (snert notwithstanding).

In any case, thank you for taking the time to reply and doing it in public.
I’m sure others will add their own comments as time permits and the spirit moves them.

I know you’ll welcome their input in your usual collegial way.

G West

Of course get rid of the

Of course get rid of the libelous, rascist, sexist. Let's pretend that's not so much what constitutes the Wild West (which I know is what it is, of course), and say that's Cess Pool stuff, that no one ought to redeem (I won't). (By libelous, I really didn't mean libelous--I was thinking lurid, but "libelous" now embodies more the sense/feel of the lurid, of the sinful, than even "lurid" now does, so I went with libelous.)

And, yeah, I didn't make any effort to redeem good reasons for your (i.e., the editorial staff at the Tyee's) care and scrutiny. It is indeed a very good thing to play a part in making sure people don't walk away from their encounter with the Tyee, feeling like they don't matter, feeling like a victim, feelin' like they've just eaten shit.

Still, overall I do think that despite some talk now of redeeming free-range play, that the overall societal trend (I know that sounds very ranging and grand, but still) is toward keeping things in control--something that ensures we get far fewer ranging, all-over-the-place, risk-taking Christopher Laschs, or William Irwin Thompsons (a leftie who would, for example, call the theory of evolution into question--something you'd never see someone on the left--even if they shared his concerns--dare give voice to right now). Makes things more boring, if more tanquil, settled, and predictable, than I'd like it to be.

I haven't experienced a Salon discussion with anonymous comments, that's before my turn there, but I was told that once you could post anonymously (that is, under the actual name "anonymous," which means no one can readily differentiate you from all the others who post under the "anonymous" moniker, which means you really could just yell stuff anonymously from 'mongst the crowd), and so I checked way earlier Stephanie Z. stuff, and saw them there. About a month and a half ago, Joan wrote about the changes--You could now flag comments; the best comment featured was being discontinued; couple other things. In that post's comment section is where I found some of the talk redeeming (let's call it) fully anonymous posting, along with warnings about the climate created where every post very visibly is at risk of being flagged by others on the site.

It's a worthy discussion, you know. I think we're used now to thinking of editors too much as superego, when they might now prove most useful as id enablers. Editors could weigh in, maybe, and address posters who are playing it too safe. I've seen John McLaughlin do this; same too, Chris Matthews. That is, really hammer away at those who won't say what's really on their mind, for fear it'll offend someone, for fear it would get them in hot water, operating under the assumption that the whole point of living in a free society is that people should much more feel the impetus to let it out, than to keep it all so very guardedly, hemmed in. Feisty fish.

Erring and Learning Is Biological

To begin with, I wish to say that the Tyee does many things (most things) extremely well. It has the awards and a growing loyal readership to attest to this. Considering it's size, I have not enjoyed any "paper" more than The Tyee. I could make a long list of what I like.

We are, all of us, human. Perhaps The Tyee editors/moderators can lead us toward the greatest of human communication skills: that of always encouraging dialogue (especially with those whom we find disagreeable). I say this because flat worms, and even plants, demonstrate an ability to change behaviours that are not rewarding. Those of us who refuse to learn are most likely either ill or ideological zealots (which may be one in the same). "Trolls" and topic hijackers at The Tyee become quite obvious. Perhaps, if you are going to have two comments sections, you can have a third, Mr. Beers. The easily identified trolls and hijackers could be automatically be filtered at sign in and their comments could default to a third (invisible to the public) comments area, a "comment pergatory" if you will. The trolls' comments could remain in purgatory until reviewed (at your leisure). If a troll improves his or her behaviours, his or her comments get added to the "all comments". This sort of system could help reduce the size of shoulders for a moderator to carry around. If the comments are invisible, then it takes a good deal of ego out of the picture until a moderator feels he or she is up to the task. I believe that eventually the trolls will give up their abusive behaviours and move toward respectful discussion (if not dialogue). They will learn.

I, for one, have truly missed the Coyote and Skookem 1. They were most valuable in my becoming a loyal Tyee reader. Like GWest, I also read the entire exchange between Rod Smelser and a former regular commentor. I believe that Rod could have benefitted from pergatory - but that might not have been necessary because the other commentor would probably have gone through "purgatory" many months ago.

Also, I find it fairly annoying that some posters have access to the "code" that allows them to post graphics, make their text bold, etc. I believe that it should be an all or nothing thing. Certainly, the Tyee staff understand the importance of formatting, otherwise, you would publish in text only mode. So, if The Tyee is to allow formatting, it should link to someplace that teaches the code.

Thank you, David Beers, for this opportunity to publicly critique and instruct the Tyee; I hope my 2 suggestions are helpful.

This isn't the wild west...

But as Patrick said,who doesn't love the wild west? Who doesn't love pirates?

I'd put forth the view that the Tyee doesn't actually 'create' the forum, David. But that's a long conversation...and yes, I believe you may perhaps perceive the comments forum differently than many of your loyal readers. You see, I think we actually partake in 'creating' the Tyee...

We'd all support you in 'improving' the comment culture: I think, we, the commentors/readers, might actually decide that better than an editor. Ya figure?

I, too must comment on Rod Smelser...who was attacked viciously, and responded reasonably mildly, considering the circumstances - only to find himself 'banned'. We'd all toe your line - if not happily - only we find it keeps moving.

But to echo G West, your public response is astute and admirable and we can only hope the dialogue continues.

Here's to the unneutered - but not sexist; the near (but not) libelous; the scandalous - but not purient.

Patrick

I just visited Salon and clicked on the most recent story. The comments (or letters as Salon calls them) are under anonymous names, and there is an option you can click called 'Editor's choice'.

I really don't understand why you are pointing us to Salon as an example of a different way of doing things.

What I find there, actually, is an older and better resourced web site sharing our approach.

Their comments have some features ours don't, such as the ability to click on one commenter's name and read other comments by the same person. And there is a zone in Salon where people not hired by Salon can post their own blog-like observations, which we don't have. It's a neat idea, but we don't have the resources.

But the way they do comments after their stories seems to me the same as ours.

VivianLea

Your observation that the commenters 'create' and recreate the forums after the stories is of course true, and as I said, we are grateful that you and others invest your time and thought here.

When I say we 'created' the forum, though, I mean we built the software, created a space that did not previously exist in cyberspace, bear the financial cost of maintaining that space, and, as members of the Tyee staff, pour effort into the site every day with fresh journalism so that it remains a place readers wish to come to in order to engage with the stories and with each other. Unlike the commenters, we also bear legal responsibility for what is posted. And of course we feel an ethical responsibility to, yes, create a forum where racist, sexist, homophobic slurs are not allowed, personal insults are not hurled about driving people away and degrading the conversation.

Hope that helps clear up what I mean by 'create this forum'. I'm not sure you and I are too far apart, though, since I also fully agree with comment by you about yourself and other commenters:

"You see, I think we actually partake in 'creating' the Tyee..."

David

Thanks for your response. Perhaps, as you say we are not too far apart...but the conversation is a long one to have here, and as you remarked, there are few of you.

I will leave you with this final thought, if I may, that there are a myriad of ways that readers/commenters 'create' the Tyee - in the first instance, perhaps, we created the demand that led to the Tyee. This is apparently a truism that many in the mainstream media forgot.

I hope you are enjoying this marvelous summer day.

but David

Surely the point I was making - or was trying to make - is that the Best Comments rating system takes up valuable time and resources which could be used to address that 'other' issue - the one that seems to always happen when people are allowed to post anonymously - that there are some who will constantly violate even the most lenient of rules. You say you are committed to making this a place where personal and offensive comments are never tolerated. You've said it more than once here on this thread.

But, as I and others have said, the most recent example of the problem of inconsistent or inequitable moderation is Rod Smelser. And that happened within the past two weeks.

There are other examples - but I've written more than enough on that subject - I'll leave further comments to those people who also think that rules are pointless unless real effort is put into enforcing them.

You told us that Tyee staffers are dedicated and hard working - I don't doubt it and applaud them for it - I just think their efforts could be re-directed in more productive and useful ways. No one, to my knowledge, belittles your efforts and your initiative and, for a lot of very good reasons, I think we’d all like you to succeed.

Just trying to help. Debates should be about ideas, not about throwing mud in each other’s eyes.

Thanks again for listening with such patience.

Actually GWest

Moderating The Tyee has become easier and less time consuming since the Best Comments feature was added. But that's not why we added it. As I say, it was to offer a choice to readers -- a choice that many readers told us they desired.

We think this is the best way to offer that more moderated choice, but also leave room for a more wide open, meandering or arcane conversation in the 'all comments' thread.

The all/best comments structure is a creative solution aimed at requiring less, not more, editorial intrusion, more flexibility for the commenters and the readers.

As far as enforcing our rules. I would have to disagree with you on this. I believe the rules are clear, we intervene or block very rarely, and only after people have expressly violated the stated rules.

You may find others annoying and wish we'd ban or censure them, but if they aren't violating the rules, we won't.

And now I'm going to take ViveanLea's advice and leave my computer for while to enjoy the sunshine!

Sharing Is Good

Many thanks (I should have said earlier) for your excellent suggestions.

Thanks David

We clearly don't see eye to eye on this one.

If anyone else is interested, I'd like to hear if there are others (besides snert) who are ready to defend the Best Comments thingy.

Truth to tell, I haven't seen any support for the idea from anyone but 'him'.

Enjoy the sunshine and the weekend.

They're under anonymous

They're under anonymous names, but they're consistent in the name they've chosen--they're tagged, in some way. So if you're "beelzebub100," then you can always be recognized as that. Believe it or not, this still makes you feel more accountable, much more visible, than if you post AS "anonymous," that is, with the title/named "anonymous"--that is, along side all the other people who posted as "anonymous." Like an option, you can use your real name or prefered moniker, or else the site will assume you are posting anonymously--and will delineate the post as being posted by "anonymous," to join the whole crowd of other posts titled that same way, which, are not, again, posts by the same person, but by a whole assemblage of differing ones. When no one is sure if you're the same "anonymous" who posted some such earlier comment by "anonymous," it affords the freedom that being part of a crowd affords--for better or worse.

Patrick, ours is the same

Because you must register your moniker with The Tyee, only one person can use it. In other words, just as at Salon, there can be only one "anonymous". That's why Luke Skywalker could only be admitted back on by our software as Luke Skywalker Redux, for example.

So there would seem to be no difference between approach of The Tyee, which you are criticizing, and Salon, which you are extolling.

At least that's how it still seems to me --even more now. Were you mistaken? Or am I missing something?

G West: I agree with the

G West: I agree with the better use of time comment. But maybe don't praise/thank David for listening with PATIENCE, as if he has other things--more important things--he ought to be doing in his busy life of saving the world, which normally would require him involving himself in Tyee/commenter discussions with an air of some haste and inevitable disregard.

I've heard a lot of what you have to say here. Anyone who thinks that attending to you can be made to seem some kind of duty/chore, that it is not something you would make every effort to find yourself set and situated so as to be most ready to well listen to your arguments/comments, is not one for praise but for (albeit, perhaps minor) therapy. Most of the time, that is ; )

Readers/commenters aren't

Readers/commenters aren't ever quite sure who "anonymous" is, they can't distinguish one anonymous from another anonymous, or at least it always leaves some room for uncertainty, even when you think you've placed a prose style, or some such. But they do know that beelzebub 100 is always beelzebub 100, that is, the same person, even if they can't ever "place" her/him in real life. This changes the dynamic when you're posting/writing, a bit. It makes you feel more truly anonymous, when people are not just not sure of who you really are, but of what particular posts you are "responsible" for.

I'm not sure I'm extolling the old Salon way, where everyone could be anonymous if they wanted to be. I was bringing up the subject of how a site can work to inhibit or enable a permissive attitude, and this just happened to come forth (honestly, I may actually prefer that there is an option for a whole gaggle of people to post as "anonymous"). I don't know if I'm for a whole bunch of people posting as anonymous--I would never do as much, myself. I have heard some say, though, that it actually works to get more ideas out, and not just more insults, that such was their experience with "old" Salon, and that's why I brought it up. It's all a bit of an adjunct, an alleyway, a turn away, in a way (or so it's beginning to seem), I'll admit. The whole anonymous thing really was provoked by G West's (note: note a slight here to you, G West) belief that readers actually don't mind sorting their way through the whole kit-and-kaboodle (which may or may not be true)--something G West is testing/pressing here and now.

Thanks for the responses, and to play off a recent Tyee' article AND VivianLea, hope you find the dose of sunshine equal to a swig of a man, or a comport in a moon, cation.

SharingIsGood

Fascinating idea, SharingIsGood.

SharingIsGood

Access to the code you want is it. Well it's just basic code that can be figured out by viewing the page Source with any browser.

What is happening now is that when they removed the ability to format it was only done superficially.

I agree that it should be put back in play though. It makes written content way more interesting.

My favourite is the link to a previous comment. I've got to figure it out again.