Uh right, teenaged girls walking down school hallways and in the malls wearing sidearms. And molestors wearing Uzis. Perfect...

Kurt, time to brush up on your Firearms legislation. Uzi’s are prohibited weapons and only a few people are grandfathered or permitted for them in Canada.

Under the present Authorization to Carry, you would have to be at least 19. Almost all the States in the US that issue Concealed Weapon Permits require the holder to be at least 21 and meet other strict requirements. Florida reports that over the last 18 years, of the 3 million or so holders of Concealed Weapon Permits, far less than 1% have abused the permit or been charged. It is estimated that around 4 million crimes are prevented in the US annually by Concealed Weapon Permits holders and that estimate is considered low.

I know that my nieces carry a rifle when they go horseback riding, does that bother you also?

To me, these marches are a paradox. To the extent that they are merely a form of theatre, they don't do much. Evidence further suggests that exposure to such marches actually discourages women from using public space at night, because it heightens their perception of risk. On the other hand, if these marches could be used to pressure politicians for better sentencing laws for violent offenders, we'd be better off.

Okay, look, Colin, the men we are most in danger from are the men we know and (sometimes) love. Carrying armaments on a date, or keeping pepper spray in the kitchen is not something women do...not only because it's wildly impractical (men can and will use weapons against us), but also because the answer to male violence against women is much simpler than that. Men need to stop raping, battering, and harassing women. You wouldn’t know it from reading the news, but stranger attacks are pretty rare. Actually, statistically, your wife and daughter are more in danger from you, than they are from the strange men you want to arm them against.

How be you good men who want to protect the women and girls you love, start giving some loving to other guys? Challenge each other’s sexism and racism. Tell your buddies to stop using pornography. Tell your buddies to stop telling sexist and racist jokes. Tell your buddies to stop heckling women as they walk by the office window or the construction site. Stop being all defensive and twitchy when your female co-worker or boss excels at something. Take care of each other. Dare to be emotionally intimate with each other. Don’t let your friends and relatives get away with the abuse and harassment of the women in their lives. You’ll feel better, I bet. Better than skulking around all paranoid about the ‘rapist around the corner’. We know, women know, that the rapist around the corner could well be our brother, or his buddies; could be our father or our husband or our uncle or our boss.

Which leads me to the point you make, Percy, about tougher sentencing. First, women who organize and participate in these marches are already very aware of the risks facing us. It is not participation in the march or action that heightens our perception of risk, more often is the media. Nearly every day you will read in the paper a story about a woman being attacked by a man. Nearly every day you will see on television a story about a man attacking a woman. Strange men. Golda Meier suggested, in the 1960’s, that men should have to adhere to a curfew, because women were being attacked at night. This suggestion was not taken seriously. But really, it seems more sensible than having the victims or potential victims of crime curtail their activities.

Stronger sentencing laws won’t solve the problem, partly because prison does not ‘rehabilitate’ men who rape. Partly because most rapes are not reported, and of those that are, very few proceed to court, and of those few, perhaps 4% result in conviction. That’s not because 96% of all reported rapes are false, that’s because women are still seen as expendable, we are still not believed when we tell the truth about our lives, and because most of the time, the men who attack us are men we know and (sometimes) love, and/or who have power over us in addition to being male. They’re doctors, judges, psychiatrists, bosses.

Take Back the Night is a peaceful feminist action. It is women taking up nearly our share of space, for a few hours. Take Back the Night can give us a taste of a future when we can walk in the streets, in the parks, in the woods without fear of male violence. We didn’t take up that spot in the park with guns. We took it with confidence, rage and hope. We are optimistic that men will stop raping and otherwise attacking us. Because the humanity of men depends on it, too.

Colin, having just watched CBC rerun Bowling for Columbine last night, I'd have to say in this instance I'd give Michael Moore far more credibility than you.

And THEN I'd have to say the gov't went WAY over the top with their draconian gun registration legislation in Canada.

Must. Resist. Trolls.

Colin, you've seen far too many Tarantino movies. And you're being disingenuous about your nieces, who don't "bother" me (I'm operating under the premise that they ride horses in the bush and carry guns to protect themselves from cougar and the like, and not bagging large "vermin" in Stanley Park).

Steve Earle said it best: "My very next pistol was a Colt 45, called a Peacemaker but I'll never know why... it can get you into trouble but it can't get you out... Mama says a pistol is the Devil's Right Hand."

Who's trolling, Foley? Peasantwoman or Colin? Me? I'd say we all are, you too. Unless you consider some viewpoints so politically incorrect they're undiscussable.

IMHO, both Foley and Peasantwoman are wrong, for different reasons, in their views re imprisonment. For example, the US has the highest percentage of its population in prison in the world, plus the highest recidivism rate in the world.

Go figure.

Take Back the Night is better than guns, as an approach to solving the problem of violence against women. First of all, it doesn't kill anyone. It is a means of experimenting with ideas about how to stop violence. We try something out, we learn what works. We have learned many times over that guns don't stop violence. Living by example does.

I went to Take Back the Night because I wanted to know what it would be like to be in the park at night without being an automatic target. I like going to the park at night. During the rest of the year, I go occasionally with a friend, and sometimes I go alone, but in that case I am always on high alert. Even with someone else, the park at night is pitch black, very quiet and there's hardly anyone there.

At TBTN, I saw many women going off in groups jogging, walking, biking, talking to each other and laughing (sound is a big factor), I started to picture how different life would be if it were like that all the time. It seemed to me that an attack in this setting would be about as likely as an attack on the street in broad daylight - you can't get away with it.

Actually I do think of the event as a kind of theatre, or a film, which is often used for the purpose of making dreams come true, so we can see what they really look like, have more time to examine them. The park being used like that is a dream, and it is not going to change overnight. Even if it did, the answer isn't that simple - I mean, one of the things I like about going to the park at night is that it is very dark, quiet and empty. No amount of legislation we change or Take Back the Nights we have will make it possible for me to do that and totally relax until guys lay off for good.

Obviously that one night a year is not a solution in itself. The point is to imagine a different world and make a small-scale model of that world so we can sample it. I went in with the question: Can we turn a place we're supposed to be scared of into a place where we have nothing to worry about? Yes, we did. It is possible.

Peasentwomen

A good post and some valid points. A firearm will not likely protect you from the person you are intimate/related with. It will help you in the case of a stranger and that happens more than we care to admit. I personally think that most “problem males” form their attitudes very early on and the suggestion you made are already to late. Funny I was just watching some female construction workers making rude comments about some guys that walked by them.

In regards to people women get involved with in relationship. A lot of problems could be avoided by teaching girls what to look out for. I have seen for myself how some women seem to always choose the wrong type of guy to be with.

Scylla
Micheal Moore?? That guy is a complete waste of time and full of it. The only thing he is good at is splicing film together to create the scene that he wants, regardless of the facts. I suggest that you explore a little further.

Kurt
Sorry never really watched any of his films. Believe me a firearm can get you out of trouble, it can also get you into trouble if used improperly.

Leah
I certainly want people to go out and enjoy life and I don’t entirely knock what they were doing, but I also don’t see what they were doing as resolving anything other than bringing the issue into the media.

Joan

Take Back The Night is a historical event for women. For over thirty years women have felt the need to expose the continued violence against women so endemic in our society. We are always looking for ways to bring awareness and protest to as many groups of women as possible. This years protest was a creative way of being inclusive to all women and interests in the community.

I was at Take Back the Night this year (& others) BECAUSE it is an action toward ending patriarchy-- that system that allows men to rape, batter, and terrorize women. As always, it was powerful & exciting to be in the company of several hundred women who together were making some FREEDOM happen for one another. Looking forward to changing the world with all of you!

Hey everyone google violence against men by women, violence by women against children,[/B]sexual misconduct against children by women[B] and variations of these themes. It will be quite an eye opener. So men the most dangerous thing in your life is that sweet thing sitting across the table from you. Please ladies don't comment until you have done the above searches.

And the two most dangerous things for me is getting into the car and my wife. But life goes on.

Women can help themselves in asking: Why did I or one of my friends get involved with someone abusive? Most abusive men I have met send out signals that can be picked up. Having watched my female friends in their relationships, some of them have a highly attuned “wanker radar” that alerts them right away and others seems drawn to the abusive types.

The sad part is watching someone you know in such a relationship and despite making it clear to them what is going on, they always go back because the person (it can be male or female that abuses) says they will change, give them a gift, say they are sorry, never happen again, etc,etc. The person will only leave when they make the realization themselves. My wife went through this process due to a previous relationship.

Hating men is counterproductive, most men are decent carrying people, be careful of using to wide a brush.

Peasantwoman:

I appreciated many good points you made, especially the one about how abusers tend to be people you know.

But you lost me with a few of your points:

1) Why should a curfew on men be taken seriously? By doing so you are treating the majority of men, who do not abuse women, the same as abusive criminals. Were you serious about this?

2) Why stop using pornography? Pornography is fantasy. Although I certainly do not support violent extremes, such as snuff or child pornography, I don't think there is anything wrong with pornography and erotica. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe there is compelling, unambivalent evidence that shows a causal relationship between pornography and abuse of women. There may be anecdotal cases of abusers who use pornography, but what about all the men who use pornography who do not abuse women? I don't think there is a causal relationship here.

3) You ask for the participation of men in the struggle vs violence against women. Great! There is a dysfunctional relationship here, so men ought to be involved & take responsibility for their actions. So why ask men not to be in the park during the march? As much as I support the ending of unjustified violence, this point sticks in my craw. To me, this seems as misguided as suggesting that men have a curfew.

4) "Dare to be emotionally intimate with each other." Puh-leeze. I think the assumption that men don't have good relations with each other is on the wackier end of the feminist literature.

And I guess abused seperated fathers still have to climb construction cranes on weekends wearing funny costumes to get that message out. And thats very unfortunate....Perhaps some of these ladies could assist them. Heaven knows how many men support womens causes, breast cancer to name one, but how many women support mens causes......

From the headline for this story:

No wonder this thread's wound up beating dead horses....the ladies forgot to bring the crystals and brown agates.

Honest, the horse had a pulse when I arrived...

Colin and company: Wow you guys really know how to shut down any dialogue. attack attack. Grrrr.

A Statistics Canada “snapshot” of a day in the year shows that three out of four of the 4,400 victims of crime seeking help on that day were women and girls. Factoring out clients of sexual assault centres, women still accounted for 70% of the victims. 80% were made victims of violence crime and 4 in ten were attacked by a husband or ex. This survey did not cover women’s shelters.

In another Stats Canada “snapshot” of a day, 3,287 women and 2,999 were living in transition houses (shelters for women escaping violent husbands, common laws and fathers)

Stats Canada also reports that females made up 86% of victims of sexual assault, 78% of the victims of criminal harassment ( where almost 90% of the stalkers were men) and 67% of the victims of abduction/kidnapping/hostage-taking

Stats Canada also reports that only 37% of “spousal assault” cases involving female victims were reported to the police for a five year period.

While Stats Canada also records that men doing violence to women inflict much more severe harm to their women victims than women who were accused of committing violence to their male partners. Men are 5 times more likely to choke their wives or girlfriends, twice as likely to threaten them with a gun and they sexually assault their victims seven times more often.

Each year, in Canada, 70-80 women are killed by current or ex-husbands. This accounts for 80% of all “spousal homicides” And yes yes, many men are assaulted and killed, but you should note that this violence is committed by other men.

Jin Guo:

I appreciate your effort to provide some facts in your argument.

But spare me the b.s. about "shutting down dialogue" through "attacks". This is a forum for lively debate and criticism, it isn't a consensus circle. Good arguments withstand criticism.

Your use of stats strengthens your argument re: the importance of the issue of violence, so please spare us the victimhood routine.

and how did I attack anyone??????

Colin and the rest of the Males who don't understand the importance of Take Back the Night:

Jokes on you I suppose. You're supposed to ASK womyn why it's important they define their space, not suggest to us 1)ways we should look out for the boyfriend who will beat us 2) why WOMYN need to change themselves so we can be accepted by men 3) gun control nonsense 4) wanker rader blah blah blah ad infinitum.

Ok, now that I've said that I will sit here and watch the fireworks! Wooooo!It's laughable to watch the males freak themselves into a tizzy when women empower themselves by defining.

So girls, let's talk about why WE loved Take Back the Night and how it was soooo freakin awesome, the energy, the positive space. I was just looking at the pics from the photoessay and I must say they are totally awesome.Let's not derail our love of the event. Let's stay on topic and talk about OUR event.

PLUR

Shadowphoenix

Shadowphoenix
Hmm, empowered women like my wife the lawyer, my sister the judge, my other sister ex-forester, now high up in a large gas station company or my mom after raising us turned a volunteer position into a full time job and won the admiration of all of the mayors on the Northshore. Not to mention the two female ship captains I have served under.

I also said:
"I certainly want people to go out and enjoy life and I don’t entirely knock what they were doing, but I also don’t see what they were doing as resolving anything other than bringing the issue into the media.
Which is basically supportive of the main idea, although I don’t think the results were as grand as you say, but then that is my opinion."

Gun control nonsense? I certain agree with you that the current gun controls in Canada are nonsense and entirely designed for political gain by the Liberals.

I will certainly accept someone saying I am opinionated on the subject of firearms, I certain don’t see the trends in the US that allow women to defend themselves as nonsense. I am certainly not scared of a lawabiding woman carrying a firearm for protection, and would be mighty grateful if that woman came to my rescue.

Sorry if the fireworks are only sparklers

Hey Shadow,

What a bunch of passive-aggressive crap. If you have a message for males, just spell it out -- it is not my job to guess what your political message is, especially when I am not "allowed" to participate in your event! So don't be surprised if people banned from your event are too unenlightened to ask the "right" question.

If I "don't understand", then please enlighten me -- scolding us for not reading minds is ridiculous, unless you are content to be a troll on this site.

And if you are critiquing specific posts, then critique them -- don't just leave a blanket, sexist statement about "the rest of the males". This perpetuates the stereotypes I presume you oppose.

And just to be clear -- if your mission is to end unjustified violence, we are on the same side!

Jin gou

Don’t forget that the numbers of male-female hetro-sexual relationships far outweigh female-female relationships. If you were able to observe a large group of female-female relationships over a period of time, I think you will find that abuse would still be a significant factor, likely still not as high as the stats being shown here.

I was raised by a single mother who sacrificed for my education etc. In the Fifties women were considered the "weaker sex", and having been privy to the many diminishments she suffered, I was pro-feminist before the term had been coined.

Since the awakening days of the Sixties, women have come a long way, building upon a the slower rate-of-gain begun in the 50 years before. A large part of those gains has been due to the collaborative energies of many men, the result today being widespread support amongst men for true equality among sexes.

Thus, while women gather in church basements to rail against Pornography, Guns, Sexual crimes, etc, a lot of men work hard to rid our culture of the sexual hypocrisy promoted by those same churches, and which lies at the roots of those problems.

You've sensed the cynicism which many of us on this site feel, Jin Gou, but you folks won't understand WHY we feel this way until you wean yourselves off this constant self-promotional, self-aggrandising, and now totally boring anti-male propaganda.

What a bunch of passive-aggressive crap.

Teehee! Here we go. Do you know how long males have been telling womyn they are psychologically unsound in order to perpetuate violence against them? Are you now going to put me in my place? Is it because I’m not all sweet and nice and living up to the male ideal of what a womyn ‘ought’ to be, not what she is?

LOLOLOLOL

Next!

If you have a message for males, just spell it out -- it is not my job to guess what your political message is, especially when I am not "allowed" to participate in your event!

I did and I’m laughing at you because I really don’t care how you define my space, my femininity. If you really need to be taught why you aren’t invited to OUR event then you’ve must be Herstorically challenged! But one question: Do you always attack someone when you want them to teach you something really really important? Do your female teachers have to tolerate your abusiveness and psychological labels when they don’t do what you want them to? Again, LOL. The joke is YOU!

So don't be surprised if people banned from your event are too unenlightened to ask the "right" question.

Duh duh duh duh DUUUUUUHHH! You’re not even enlightened enough to ask if us grrrlls had fun! You’re too busy being primitive and banging your male privilege club like a Neanderthal!!!!

If I "don't understand", then please enlighten me -- scolding us for not reading minds is ridiculous, unless you are content to be a troll on this site.

Lemme guess. You were the boy who physically assaulted girls you liked when you were 10? Scolding? No. LAUGHING! HA HA HA HA HA!

And if you are critiquing specific posts, then critique them -- don't just leave a blanket, sexist statement about "the rest of the males". This perpetuates the stereotypes I presume you oppose.

I love when a man tells me how to respond, how to talk, how to walk, how to ‘take it’. Go back to the cave, man!!! giggle

And just to be clear -- if your mission is to end unjustified violence, we are on the same side!
You responded to me in a way that let’s me know you ain’t on my side. You can’t even keep quiet and let us GRRRRLLS talk about OUR event. You can’t even ask us nicely. You speak to me violently and therefore, SHOW me that we ain’t on the same side. All I simply asked for was for the males to quit trying to derail the thread and knuckledragging the conversation. Ya know, like, LET US TALK ABOUT OUR EVENT!!!!! Go elsewhere. You say you want to learn well then quit being a horrid student, stfu, and LISTEN.

I’d RATHER talk about the EVENT that I, as a GIRL/WOMYN/TRICKSTER/GEEK, didn’t get to attend this year because of my work schedule. What a bummer! But this is why I’m asking other grrrls and womyn to tell me how it was, because I’ve emailed some organizers regarding the fact that the event was held on a Friday instead of a Saturday. I think more of us could attend if it was held on a Saturday. Work, kids, etc. etc.

But geez, those pics are just gorgeous. I love the pic of the night sky, coming down like a soft grey blanket, and seeing my sisters enjoying each others safety and comfort in nature that is called MOTHER for a reason. It is our birthright as womyn to be close to the land because we are everything that is made by HER.

So, I will ask once again for the topic to be OUR event and ask my SISTERS to talk about what they LIKED about it without being sidetracked by other issues that have NOTHING to do with OUR event.

I want to talk ON TOPIC. The pictures. Our event. Our Feelings. Our SELF- DEFINED WORLD.

To Quote Francine Pelletier from her Piece entitled ‘They Shoot Horses, Don’t They?’

“In my opinion, the malaise is related to the way certain men (a minority, certainly, but a minority that weighs heavy in the balance) interpret Feminism. They regard Feminism as a rejection of men. It is not only that women today are able to take the place of men – “take over” men’s jobs, as they say. It is much more a matter of women having a life of their own, a matter of women not being available. And the more women appear out of reach socially, the more they appear unapproachable individually.

What is intolerable for some men today is that some women dare to be unavailable.

In 1984, for example, at La Vie en Rose, the magazine where I worked at the time, we had a bomb scare. Why? We were organizing for the second year in a row a March 8 celebration “for women only”. The problem here was not that we wished to promote International Women’s Day. The problem was we had the nerve to do it without men.”

This piece was written in response to the 14 Women who were killed at Ecole Polytechnique.

That sums it up very nicely I think.

Shadowphoenix

Once you publish your “event” on a internet site that invites comment from registered members than you have given up any right to prevent people from posting comments (that follow the rules of the discussion board)

Radical feminists were necessary to get the movement going but now likely do woman as much harm as good if not more. Most woman I know have no desire to associate with radicals of any sort, as they dislike being told what to think.

Well since you brought it up
Marc Lepine, his real name was Gamil Rodrigue Gharbi was raised by his Muslim father and was apparently taught to despise women and his father was known to beat his wife. His suicide note told that he wanted to kill feminists, 19 in particular as they had “ruined his life”

He tried to join the army but they refused him

What is not mentioned in most reports is that he tried to modify his rifle to be fully automatic, but in actual fact ended up disabling the semi-auto function and he had to recock the rifle manually each time he shot someone. Not be critical, but had the people there realized their fate, they could have stormed him and likely reduced the casualties.

Gun or no gun it is clear he intended to kill those people one way or another. One very sick and disturbed person.

Shadow:

I can't win here:
- if I ignore you I'm a neaderthal who doesn't care
- if I agree with you I'm stepping on your toes by daring to comment on your event
- if I disagree with you I'm a rapist or somebody who has a problem with a female figure in my life.

This adds up to a shady ideological evasion of criticism -- a poor substitute for strong arguments.

I was referring to your sad excuse for an argument, not your character. But if the shoe fits ...

Are you now going to put me in my place? Is it because I’m not all sweet and nice and living up to the male ideal of what a womyn ‘ought’ to be, not what she is?

Again, the sexist cracks, assuming that because I'm male I've got a problem with women (sorry, womyn) and want to oppress you. You put words into my mouth -- something I suspect you would not appreciate being done to you.

No social movement is immune from criticism, including your version of feminism. If you don't like criticism and debate, I'm surprised you are on this site. But you said it best yourself when you wrote that this was about your "self-defined world". Self-defined worlds are great until you have to coexist peacefully with other people ... especially people who object to being called rapists.

Personal insults show that you have no better argument. Such accusations are abusive.

If all you want to do is talk to people who agree with you, why not save it for a private event? This is a public forum, and frankly I object to you suggesting that I should not comment due to my gender. That, Shadowpheonix, is a form of sexism which you would never tolerate if applied to you.

But I will gladly accept your challenge:
Did anyone who attended TBTN have fun?

Thank you Colin, M Man, I admire your patience.

I tried posting. It was long and elegant. but technology thwarted me and I must go...

Suffice to say this little bit:

I went to Take Back the Night this year and I had a great time. More details after I get over being timed out...grumble...

Tamara

Hi All,

well. so much to respond to, so little time...first off, Colin, in response to your comment:
Radical feminists were necessary to get the movement going but now likely do woman as much harm as good if not more. Most woman I know have no desire to associate with radicals of any sort, as they dislike being told what to think.

I dunno. do I even comment on that? oh, how can I not? There are still radicals among us, I am one, and "radical" means, basically, "root'. As in "the root of all oppressions is patriarchy/sexism". 'radical" doesn't mean that we have the whole truth, and can tell everyone what to think...I do like to tell people what to think, mind you, as do you, apparently, but I don't expect they'll always agree with me.

I'm sorry the women in your life don't want to be radicals...and anyhow, how can you be sure? I don't know if I would tell you if I knew you. I'd just go about my business and dismantle patriarchy as I could without looking for your approval...

It was radical feminists who started rape crisis centres and transition houses for battered women and it is still radical feminists who do this work all over the world and who save women's lives...from the men who "love" them. Or from the men who hate them. Or from the men who don't even know them...Radical feminism is not about hatred. nope. quite the opposite. It requres a great deal of optimism (possibly pathological optimism, given the state of the world...)to maintain that men can change their behaviour. That men can and (eventually) will share the power they have that they have not earned. That one day there will be no need for women-only space, or women only events. That day is NOT today.

The other thing is, we don't kill men. Even if we are really really angry at them. The whole lot of you, for what some of you do...that keeps all of us afraid of all of you...

and don't get on me about "playing the victim" or any such trash, thanks. Many women are victimized by men, All women are oppressed by men. not necessarily victimized, but we have learned ways, from birth, to try to side step the wrath of the men who want to keep us makin' coffee and havin' babies, or want to hurt us, or want to own us...

Just like those of us who were born in North America and are of European background, by and large use up way more than our share of the stuff in the world, whether we have a social conscience or not; Men take up more than their share of the room, whether they are concsious of this or not.

Take Back the Night is women only, because we want to take up our share of room. Our space. we want to define what freedom looks like, and we can't do it if there are men around. We can't do it without you, in the long run, but we have to have our own places, protected by women for women, to learn from each other what that freedom might be like.

there. that's what i have to say about that. And the rap group at Take Back the Night was fabulous. What was their name again? marvelous stuff. And Sandy Scofield has become one of my favourite performers...passion, talent, humour...lovely. okay. bye for now.

oh, and "moderate man"...The temptation to resort to Argument ad hominem with you is great, but I will resist. Porn is bad. Not because it's about sex, no no. Because it's about manipulation and control and menace. I know, I know, women make porn, lesbians make porn, I don't like that stuff either. Just because we can be as creepy and tasteless as men, does that make us emancipated? I don't think so. There have been studies done that demonstrate that pornography does have the effect of desensitizing men to women's pain or distress, and increasing their levels of aggression against women. A friend of mine said that "pornography makes men into lousy lovers". She's not the only one I've heard that from. It's hard to know how to be a decent lover when you have been told all your life (and boys are exposed to pronography very young in many cases) how women "like it"--but only in magazines and movies and now the internet--material and images that show men who women with appalling, shocking disrespect and violence. And I mean the crap you see in magazines like Maxim or Stuff, too. Why do men bother with that rot, I wonder? no, forget it, I know. It's way easier than taking it on in any way, than challenging the rationale for it, than insisting on seeing the insult to your own selves, too. ach.

and, um, women can't be sexist against men. We can be rude, and insulting and not very nice to you, but sexism is a structural thing, it's a tool of patriarchy and requires a lot of power to put it into action, the kind of power that men, as a group, have over women, as a group.

okay. enough from me for now.

That old canard again. Studies financed by women's groups perhaps? Like the Marijuana ones financed the the Boy Scouts of America?

I'm not about to go looking for them, but I've read plenty which have proven exactly the opposite.

If you show us some, I'll read them and then see what I can find.

I'm reminded of the Eddie Murphy skit in Saturday Night Live where he goes undercover as a white man and discovers that white people are in some sort of secret society where they all help each other out.

Bad news peasantwoman, the secret society of men doesn't exist. (or perhaps I simply didn't get invited, if that's the case, I take it all back.)

Men can be sexist, and so can women. Every time you use a phrase like "All women are oppressed by men", you prove that point.

Oh Peasantwoman, yes, the temptation to argue about it ad infinutm is so totally there and I am glad you are posting and that other womyn are posting about OUR event in OUR way and OUR space, like you so eloquently pointed out how we have the need for it and we will take it whether they like it or not. There. I said it.

The fact I have been automatically labeled a radical amuses me. I was reading a nice piece last night about the difference between the moderate feminist, considered the good feminist and the Radicals who were considered the BAD feminists because they couldn't be reasoned with or talked to whereas the moderates would be quiet while the media (read: patriarchy) made its excuses for Marc Lepine and the violence. Shit, if this means I'm a radical then fine. I am a feminist and proud.

Looking forward to reading more comments by Womyn about the event and the pictures, which I will say again, are truly beautiful.

Under communist dictatorships, they used to tell you that it was impossible for workers to be oppressed because "it's a structural thing that only happens under capitalism". Whew! Hard to believe that argument still survives, albeit in another form.

Oh, while I'm here. Grrls and Womyn- Do you know of a good all womyn space on the web where it's just us? A place we can talk without having to deal with the gaze, the backlash and all that other schtuff?

I had a wonderful time at Take Back the Night.

Shadowphoenix, I don't know of a women-only space on the web, it's tough to screen when it's the internet and as we know some men just can't stand to let women get together without interfering.

Example: the hero who is challenging the women's only fitness facility

I did not attend the TBTN action this year,
but I have attended many over the years and have found participating very empowering. I think the spaces women create for themselves help them become self actualized and more self confident about facing abusive men.
Interaction with men who seem to care more about gun control than women's safety seems to be a waste of time.

Ladies:

The line that goes "If you don't agree with us, then you must be against us" illustrates the Politically Correct attitudes that destroyed the New Left.

It's the kind of tool used by self-serving leadership to blinker gullible groupies.

Sorry, jin quo, that last posting was`too dismissive, here, I'll give it another try:

I'm not not familiar with the issue referenced, but I'll assume it was a guy trying to make a point, like, "turnabout is fair play" ?

I then assume your argument went "We don't want women to be afraid of being ogled" to which I can relate. But if you were truly the intelligent "radicals" you say tou are, you'd be willing to make a far larger point:

Sure, some women might feel embarrassment re stretch-marks, flab, etc, but the more they're hidden, the more "shame" is elicited by their presence. But the shock, surprise, disgust, or whatever some men might initially feel is overwhelmed by exposure to it, as happens in nudist camps. And there is nothing wrong with a man's appreciation of a well-formed body either.

The sick attitudes which our culture holds toward women's bodies (and thus women) is perpetuated by the very attitudes many feminists hold re the supposedly barely suppressible sexual urges of men. It is a religious attitude only, which is supposed to "prove" men can be controlled only through religious sexual proscriptions. (such as anti-porn)

It is not a stretch to see this leads to the paternalism which hallmarks our major religions. Thus the focus is upon virginal, teen innocence, and the subtle disparagement of the mature female body.

If, however, the only objective of male exclusion from gym classes is so you can unopposedly propagandise your predjudices, then you are right, you should not be on this site.

wow..Is this a debate or an attack...comments like "if you are the intellegent radicals you say you are" and the implication that radicals are gullible groupies just sounds like a good way to shut down conversation and a bit of wanking to me?

Yeah, you're right.

LOLOLOLOL..nice to know you still have a sense of humour.

You weren't supposed to think it was funny :-)

Peasentwoman

“ I'm sorry the women in your life don't want to be radicals...and anyhow, how can you be sure? I don't know if I would tell you if I knew you. I'd just go about my business and dismantle patriarchy as I could without looking for your approval...”

I am sure, because both my sister were radical’s, in fact I think I equate radical feminism with sibling rivalry. My sisters were both volunteers on the crisis hotline and the rape hotline. They fought with the girl guides over badges, skirts etc. But they have grown up and moved on. They still believe in protecting and securing woman rights, but they also know that the men in their lives play important roles and look for ways to include them and have a balanced relationship with them.

You don’t need my approval, all I ask is that you open your mind a bit more.

Jin Guo,

Yes, it would be hard to have a site just for womyn. But you see, if we did have a site and we were to talk about OUR experience as womyn I'm sure the few males who would try desperately to be a part of it couldn't hold themselves quiet for any length of time. This would allow the womyn running the site to make use of the 'eject' button. LOL

And I find it amusing how many assumptions are being made as far as the womyn who are here are describing their feelings and experiences and some of the males are putting forth their objections based on what they 'think' she means instead of being interested in WHY she feels the way she does.

And I gotta laugh about the lack of intelligence comment. LOLOL!!! I was just telling a girlfriend of mine about how I was totally indoctrinated into the masculine concepts of intelligence. My IQ is registered, I am an invited member of MENSA. These are all the strongholds of men. LMFAO.

And the beat goes on, do do... do do...

Keep it up Girls! Remember Rosie!

Oh, I have a question for the sisters who attended TBTN this year. How do men react to being asked to leave the park? Do any of them make a scene? I still want to focus on the event.. JEESH it's terrible how much I want to talk about the original topic of this thread! LOL

Shadowphoenix

I wish one of these had been staged in my area...as far as I know it wasn't. I hope I wasn't mistaken. I'm in Houston, btw.

Hello girls and womyn! What's up?

Hey Shadowphoenix, I was at this year's TBTN. I was one of the volunteer there and it was amazing! Being surrounded by hundreds of womyn was very comforting and I was surprised at how at ease I was even though my duty was to "secure" the area. I know that all the other volunteers got my back if men were to make a scene even after I'd explain why its womyn only to them.

None of the men I asked to not enter the area made a scene. They were all respectful of why its womyn only. Those that came with their partner either sat around the peripheral or went for a coffee while they waited. My partner chose to sleep in the car.haha One man actually asked if he could have some pins, which have "Feminist Action Creates Freedom" on it, so he could hand them out at his work.

It was very peaceful, no one made a scene...well there was this one man who threw a leave at us and stomped off when we told him he couldn't go any nearer to the stage. lol It was quite cute actually, I don't know if it was intentional or not but we had a good laugh.

Overall, the rally was awesome! Some of the womyn made pakora and handed them out to anyone of us who wanted some. A lot of us were just chilling and taking it all in. The fact that we're sitting in a park and in the dark where we're joking around and chatting was quite an experience.

The rap group was amazing! Does anyone know who they are??