Voting Yes Does Indeed Send A Message

I agree with your article and that by voting YES an individual sends a clear message to Victoria. Voting No means you either want to support this tax and or this government. It's too bad that this question could not be asked alongside our ballots at a provincial election. It's also too bad that this tax transfers a burden from one part of our society to another. It's also very bad when any government thinks that they can just "do whatever they want, whenever they want to the very same people that elected them".

I'm voting YES for many reasons. Technically we all got along just fine under the old GST/PST system. We all hate paying taxes yet we must but what is worse is a government that lies to it's own people to get it's own way, that to me is wrong. Hopefully people will vote to extinguish this tax and let the BC Liberals know that enough is enough already.

So I've made up my mind but I wonder what others will do?, Hopefully people will make the right choice and send a message to Victoria and restore democracy to our province.

Yes reminds us and the

Yes reminds us and the present government that they lied to us and fully expected to get away with lying. Bring back the PST will all the exemptions and move along Mz.Christy and we can all judge your performance in the upcoming election

Vote Yes: Democracy, Use It or Loose It

The more businesses that support the HST, the worse it is for citizens. If this was GOOD for us, why would businesses support it? Only because it is GOOD for business.

And since when have we benefited from pro-business policies? Lower corporate taxes mean fewer social services for citizens. Consumption tax (HST) taxes people, not businesses.

And when was the last time citizens were allowed to vote to increase the minimum wage? Never.

Thank Bill Tielemann for your tireless work.

Why we need to axe the tax

Here is my letter to the editor on this issue
(thanks to the Tyee for some of the info)

Why we need to axe the tax

Taxpayers should axe the HST to give the B.C. government a well-deserved jolt for cutting the taxes for banks and corporations while increasing the taxes that consumers pay. The HST is a part of the conservative philosophy to shift the tax burden from those who can afford it to those who cannot, which fosters the increasing concentration of wealth into fewer hands. This is a government that won the favour of the public by cutting income taxes and then to make up for declining revenues it increased fees and consumer taxes. One study (in Linda McQuaig’s “The Trouble with Billionaires”) recently found that if the 59,000 people in Canada who make over a half-million-dollars per year were taxed at a higher rate, as in other countries, public coffers would have an extra $8-billion a year. The B.C. government cut $250-million dollars off taxes for the banks and has given millions of dollars in subsidies to oil and gas corporations, independent power producers and forest companies. And it has the nerve to say the HST produces more jobs, while this province continues to have the highest poverty rate in Canada.

A yes vote in the HST referendum will send a powerful message to a provincial government that has been more interested in protecting corporate profits, which are often invested outside the country, than helping working families survive in these tough economic times. Raising taxes for the goods and services we need results in less consumption for those on fixed incomes and thus hurts the economy. Whereas raising taxes for banks and corporations might only result in fewer purchases of luxury cars, corporate jets and expensive vacations. Which would you prefer?!

HST; a small part of shell game

Very sad. There has been an ongoing shell game, revved up with the recession, on average workers and consumers, for some time now.

Cut backs on federal and provincial government workers, attacks on guaranteed benefit pensions (while the CEOs keep their own gold plated guaranteed benefit plans), tuitions up and up, cuts on medical services coverage, privatized, sub standard home care, all in the name of needed austerity while the top few make obscenely even more. Nothing new here, its just the scale and the expensive PR nonsense that tries to tell us that "It's all good". For whom?

Lower taxes? Sorry but the HST increases taxes, as presented, even at a hypothetical, future 10%, for most low to middle income earners, perhaps not the very lowest. Can't squeeze much juice out of a desiccated raisin.

It seems the elite views this shift as an advantage if average consumers or workers can't afford to buy product here because all those raw materials are bound for export, while import demand then decreases, thus favourably shifting the country's trade balance while making even greater multinational corporate profits. Formerly successful Canadian companies are merged or go through hostile takeovers, to shareholders' benefits and workers' losses. McJobs anyone?

The HST is just one more cut in the ongoing liars game to squeeze more out of average workers who also happen to be average consumers.

Vote yes to abolish this regressive tax add on. A small but significant step to reclaim a more equitable system.

You have it in a nut shell, Bill.

What started as a straight forward issue of whether one wanted to sanction the government's introduction of the HST or not has now turned into a vote on the integrity of this government. All the manipulation to get a vote in their favor has eaten away at their image. They now come across as more corrupt and dishonest than any government in BC's history. Can you imagine the implication of the voter telling them that this lack of veracity is O.K. in B.C. politics.

The HST is good for BC and creates jobs....

According to Mike Jagger, co-chair of the Smart Tax Alliance and owner of Provident Security, at least two jobs have been created by the HST. He has hired two more security guards to add to his existing 175. Course, he won't say how much he pays his guards, whether they work full-time or part-time, and whether he uses his new profits to increase their wages, lower prices to customers or simply puts it in his pocket.

Radio ads are also insulting!

The current radio ads being shovelled into our ears seem to be getting even more desperate, "exposing" those on the "Yes" side as spreading lies and distortion. All they do with me is make me even more determined to vote, and "Yes". I find them insulting to our intelligence, not the other way around as is stated in the ads. It will be interesting to find out how many McStupid people actually vote "No".

It was so nice visiting England recently where the sticker price is actually what you pay, and at a restaurant, you pay what it says on the menu, and you don't have to give a tip since the servers actually get a decent wage. Yes, I know that taxes are already included in the price, but why hasn't this been brought up as one potential new way of dealing with sales taxes?

Interesting change in tactic....

I guess now that the "HST is costing you more" argument is not valid you've changed your argument to "The HST isn't just about tax policy -- it's about democracy itself".

I wonder why you didn't protest when the Liberal government lowered our personal income tax rates from one of the highest in Canada during the NDP rein to the second lowest income tax rate in Canada today... I don't remember anyone getting a vote on that tax change policy...

Maybe you're suggesting it's undemocratic when you don't agree with the policy, and it's democratic when you agree with the policy???

@ alwaysfishin

Yes, it is costing you more. Nothing has changed and one would have to be really gullible to think otherwise, but now people are talking about the dishonesty and the attempt to thwart the will of the people.

Skywalker

How can you say it's costing me more when you don't even know me??

vote by proxy means nothing.

If you want to send a powerful message to the government, then vote it out. That's democracy. Sending a message by proxy on a tax vote means nothing. If HST is voted out, the current liberal government will just blame the previous liberal government and move on with life. Either way, this will be a closed chapter for them come September.

political parties v. public policy

We all know that Bill is anti-HST (who could mistake that?) But it is not responsible from a public policy standpoint to urge that the HST be voted down because of the way in which it was introduced, or because of anti-Liberal partisan sentiments. I never have, and can't imagine ever, voting for the BC Liberals, and there is no question that the way the HST was brought in smelled very bad from a democratic process perspective.

But look: Gordon Campbell paid the price, didn't he? A three-time majority winner forced to flee office in discredit. But the Vander Zalm recall machine foundered when it came to recalling individual ministers not for their own malfeasance, but for the sins of their government. Voters quite sensibly balked at this as a bridge too far.

Now we have the referendum on the HST. The responsible approach is to look at the HST as public policy, good or bad, and judge it as such. Not to use the referendum as a means to beat the Liberals once again. Despite Bill and the other Bill, and all the other anti-HST voices, I happen to think that getting rid of the tax will be more costly than keeping it, now that it is in place. Let's have a debate on the merits/demerits of the HST and the comparative costs of keeping/repealing it. Not one more kick at the Liberal can. The province, and its people, are more important than partisan jabs.

HST - the secret agenda

Well said, Bill. The public has to realize that the HST is not simply a money issue but first & foremost a political fight. HST (or VAT) is the final act in the Corporatist agenda to squeeze the last bit of wealth from the middle-class. When we no longer have enough to buy 'their' stuff they will just move on to sell to the growing Chinese & Indian middle-classes. This continues the 400 year-old secret plot to funnel all the world's capital into the hands of a very tiny few, who own the banks. Once that happens, these secret rulers will declare themselves as the New Kings of the World.
It's time to disenfranchise these parasites & return the wealth of the world to ALL the people of the world.

PS Please stop referring to the number of signers as 500,000 (these were the ones that fitted under Elections BC's deliberately difficult signing restrictions - always mention the 710,000 citizens who were angry enough to sign => this is the democratic view.

Look, it is all about the money, OK?

There is no great plot, not evil conspiracy and no violation of civil rights. It is about a simplified, harmonised tax system that allows one calculation and one collection agency and one set of exemptions. It is infinitely simpler and more fair than the old system, which was warped out of all recognition.

Never mind splitting hairs, why aren't we protesting in favour of a much simpler tax system, period? We are doomed to pay increasing taxation, as long as we continue to demand more "free" services. Get used to it.

People want plug-and-play democracy, they want electricity from the wall socket with no power generation or transmission lines and they want to dipsose of their waste into a Black Hole at the bottom of their kitchen-catcher.

In other words, we all want much more than we either need or deserve. Most of us are ignorant bums with snotty noses, especially those who live in Shaughnessy Heights.

We need to be reduced to the level to which we are willing to pay, without burdening our grandchildren. If everyone who took a summer vacation in a foreign land were to take a greater interest in their immediate surroundings, it would be a much better world.

The ultimate farce is when people complain about the HST on their foreign travels. I am reminded of the Monty Python character who said, "People who don't like this country enough to stay here for a vacation, shouldn't be allowed back into the country". There is a grain of truth in that.

alwaysfishn - I actually preferred the higher income tax rate...

at least we weren't hit with other tax increases and user fees every time we turned around.

I had money left over at the end of the month and I suspect 25% of our population wasn't so poor that they needed to rely on a quarterly tax "bribe" cheque in order to survive.

I also recall a whole lot more good paying jobs in places like manufacturing and the forest industry than there are these days.

I actually knew how much money the government was spending on my behalf (they hide it so well now, you'll never figure it out) AND the NDP didn't go selling our assets to the highest bidder.

I could also afford to go to Vancouver Island frequently, don't recall working families having to use food banks, and pay my hydro bill without taking out a loan (ok, that last part was a bit of an exaggeration).....

Who pays Tieleman?

I would recommend that honest and progressive-minded people vote based on policy at this stage.

Of course, different people will probably come to different conclusions about what the best policy option is at this point. That's OK. I will likely vote to keep the HST, only because it makes more sense than returning to the GST/PST.

We all can agree that the way the tax was brought in was shameful. It was chiefly for this reason that Gordon Campbell resigned.

Following his resignation, the BC Liberals had a leadership contest that was, to be frank, far more open and democratic than the NDP's was. They elected a new leader who wasn't even in the House when the HST was brought in.

At this stage, we should be voting based on which policy is most appropriate in the long run. While there are good arguments against the HST as a regressive tax, these same arguments are just as applicable to the PST/GST. The PST/GST is just far more irrational, imho.

I would caution people to remember that, with rare exceptions, letting someone convince you to act irrationally in order to punish "the other" is a very dangerous thing. It ultimately underminds trust, results in bad policy, and also breeds ongoing (perpetual) inequities and tit-for-tat stupidity. It also provides fodder for those who think you don't know what you are talking about.

I would also recommend that people STOP assuming that those who write for the Tyee represent what honest and progressive voters should think. No, please work on thinking for yourself.

Assuming that certain individuals speak for "us", regardless of what they say, is the very same type of inequity as mentioned above, where people are convinced to act irrationally to punish "them".

Is it any wonder that we live in a province with such a crappy electoral system, irrational tax system, disgraced political parties, and a confused public?

Personally, I will likely vote to keep the tax if the only option is to keep it or else return to ever more irrational GST/PST.

While the following question is not meant as a personal attack or insult, I would appreciate if the Tyee would publish all individuals/unions/corporations who pay Mr. Tieleman for his work. There is a fundamental difference between an individual's personal opinion, and the words coming from an ad agency, corporation, or media relations firm. As Mr. T falls into the latter category, I would appreciate that the lines between "independent journalism" and professional spin not be so blurred on this site. Same goes for Schreck, only moreso.

'Fish-counter' illustrates

'Fish-counter' illustrates how the bought & conned believe they are on top of the game. Actually, they are the most naive members of society who think the few crumbs they are given by the really rich are worth scrabbling for.
'Armor' needs to ask himself why would business pay millions in trying to keep the HST (surely not to keep billions in hidden benefits, would it?). The rest of us anti-HST 'enthusiasts' are not being paid by anyone - not unions, not rich liberals, no-one: just people who dislike being used by greedy, selfish, lying oafs.

sunshine coast girl - Taxing income is a tax on initiative.

It's a fact that the harder and smarter you work the more money you make and the more income tax you pay. On the other hand the drug dealer and guy that gets paid under the table, pays no tax.

They use all the services, but you and I pay for them with our income tax dollars.

The HST gets tax dollars from all the people that don't honestly pay their income taxes and even the rich people with good accountants. It's a well known fact that the drug trade in BC is one of the largest industries in BC. These people spend those income tax free dollars and buy stuff... and finally pay taxes!

Federal Control and Corporate Welfare

A few things that haven't previously been mentioned:

We are handing our taxation power over to the federal government. Can we trust them to play fair? This is a dangerous road...

The government's own HST Referendum Voter's Guide tells the real story. The pie chart on page 7 shows that corporate income tax represents only 4% of total provincial revenues, while personal income tax is 14% and the HST is another 14%! It seems we the people are paying 7x the tax that corporations are. And when these corporations are foreign-owned, their profits enrich other countries, not our own.

So ask yourself: why should we subsidize corporations who are paying a pittance in taxes, busting unions (Walmart anyone?), sending good jobs overseas, and removing their profits from BC?

If we want a tax policy that actually encourages job growth (one of the lies they are using to sell the HST), provide targeted tax breaks that are directly linked to investment and job creation in BC. It isn't that complicated, it just requires a little political will.

The current HST policy, while better for businesses, is regressive and unfair, transferring an inappropriate burden onto the backs of people who are struggling to afford the basics. The average BC family hasn't had a raise in years, and the cost of living continues to rise.

Meanwhile, corporate CEO's earn 300+ times what their workers earn (it used to be 30x). How is it our government still thinks that corporations need us to subsidize their activities?

People will only tolerate gross inequities (and political incompetence) for so long. Perhaps the French Revolution is an idea whose time has come again...

@alwaysfishin

You either deny it is costing you more or you are own one of the business which had the GST shifted to the rest of us. If that is the case then you comments are not worth much. The title of Bill's article has in it "Not Just Money" but that didn't register with you when you made your comment. Of course it is about the money. That is how it started. Since then it has become a question of a leader's veracity. Hard to find anyone these days who trusts this government.

@ Amor de cosmos

Then we should also publish every one of the people's names behind the Smart Tax Alliance, their contributors and how much they contribute to the BC LIberals. Then publish the total amount spent on the Pro HST campaign and where every penny came from to promote all the misinformation.

This vote has nothing to do with policy and only the pro HST people try to make it so. This vote is about saving Christy Clark's political future and the penalty for their arrogance won't be addressed until they are reduced to two seats. Anything else is a whitewash.

@ Vox.Pop.

Well said!

alwaysfishn - The HST gets more taxes from those of us who pay

income tax too. And that's "after-tax dollars". What's your point?

@ Pepper Girl

Right on.

alwaysfishn

How can you say it's NOT costing more when you don't know anyone on this forum??

PS alwaysfishn

I can agree with you that no one should pay incomes taxes. But that has to be coupled with a few other deletions - such as the breakup of the corporations - the dissolution of patent law - and the immdiate disbanding of the CRA (among many others).

Ode to Christy, Me and the HST

It was in the month of June,
when the flowers were in bloom
Gordo said to me, the HST you will not see,
for I will keep, our sovereignty.
So we voted him in, with his Cheshire grin
and then he said, let the games begin.

Lo and behold the truth be told,
the HST, was going to be,
a fait accompli.
A great big pinch for you and me
as he sold away our sovereignty.

Then along came Zalm with a bam bam bam
and started to shout, get out you lout
with your Pinocchio snout.
An initiative to you we'll give
in your side it will stick like a shiv

Well Gordo laughed and laughed some more
so secure he felt, to the very core.
But mistakes he made and made some more
while Van Der Zalm was keeping score
now Gordo's only political lore

Christy Christy it makes me misty
to think of you in the political zoo
into the breach and out of reach
of the B.C. Rail Scandal.

Your bright new face is out of place
in the company you keep
you lack that grin that would hide your sin
the people know which way you go
on that crooked trail, that will without fail,
lead us back to B.C.Rail.

So Christy please put us all at ease
take a high road from now on,
fight Ottawa's shill, and pass a bill,
a bill, to kill for you and me, the HST

This and that

Thanks for the poem rantnic - nice work. I must point out that it doesn't, however, actually explain why the HST should be scrapped at this point in favour of returning to the GST/PST. And that's the rub.

Skywalker – yes, I actually do agree that we should publish information about all those sources. For the same reason, I strongly oppose both union and corporate donations to political parties, and strongly support very low limits on the maximum allowable donation. In a democracy, citizens must be the only legitimate unit of expression.

But keep in mind that arguing that others should also have to do something is not a valid argument to suggest that you should not have to. The other name calling and “your either this or that” stuff just doesn’t help.

On the topic of political donations, I understand that some of the same so-called progressives who undermined electoral reform and confused the public about both climate and tax policy - were also keenly involved in the seriously misguided efforts at preventing restrictions on third-party advertising. Of course, that slippery slope leads to a situation where the basic unit of democracy is not the citizen, but the dollar.

The "they do it so we should too" arguments just don't fly because, I can assure you, the holders of capital will win any such contest. They've been at it for millenia.

As for journalism, there traditionally were quite strong laws to make sure readers are not confused between actual journalism and advertising. We need an informed public that understands these distinctions.

As for corporate tax - these same so-called progressive folks will trick you into NOT realising that any dividends paid out by a corporation (after paying the corporate tax) will still trigger income tax for those business owners. The fact is that lowering the corporate tax rate (a flat tax) can result in those business owners paying higher income taxes (a progressive tax) when they take the money out as dividends. As income tax is progressive, I would suggest that is a much more just approach. The charts which simply distinguish between sources of revenue as “revenue from corporate tax versus income tax” are ignoring the very important fact that business owners still must pay income tax on their dividends.

I have been a life-long social democrat but, in my opinion, the NDP has kept itself out of power for a long time largely because of these problems/approaches/inequities. You see, the problem is that many of the sharpest criticisms of the NDP are, sadly, quite accurate.

@Amor de Cosmos

The PST+GST is easier on the taxpayers pocket book than the HST-2%. A real estate agent would say that the important thing is Location, Location, Location. I must say that the important thing is Democracy, Democracy, Democracy.
I understand Christy had to get permission from Ottawa before she could promise a 2% reduction of the HST. Will Ottawa keep their word?

Well said...!

Bill Tieleman, I do believe you are getting closer to the realization that the meaningless labels "left" and "right" are irrelevant and indistinguishable in the quest for individual liberty...

Perhaps the next step is to force Our Leaders to accede to online popular votes - on EVERY decision.

I has always been about trust, credibility, democracy

and it should be about accountability.

This referendum has shifted the responsibility on to others rather than the party who introduced it. IF THIS TAX IS SO GOOD FOR BRITISH COLUMBIANS THEN CAMPAIGN ON IT DURING AN ELECTION.

Don't sneak it in after an election.

Don't try to "fix" it during the referendum when the issue gets confused about whether we are voting on the merits of the HST or the details of an imposed HST.

Don't tell us you will be unbiased about presenting information when clearly you have no intention of doing so.

Don't hide behind a massive ad campaign by the people who benefit the most from the tax shift who are telling us that we gain from the HST.

I just want to know how I benefit from a tax shift of a billion or more dollars per year from corporations to consumers.

I am hardly naive. I know that governments find ways to make up money through tax policy. Cut our income taxes. Thank you. Oh but now I end up paying more in increased fees or through lost services. Hardly a win there.

I am trying really hard to look at this tax objectively. I see people telling me totally opposite things.

Do I trust Bill Vander Zalm. Hardly. I loathed him as Premier.

Do I trust Bill Tieleman. The guy who campaigned against electoral reform. Nope

But do I trust anybody in the Liberal government who have lied and misinformed from the day they were elected. Not a chance.

I don't see how the tax benefits me. When I hear counter arguments I have to ask myself who I believe.

The guys who have lied and misinformed me have not convinced me in anyway. Why then would I vote to keep the tax?

The HST is a fraud..

And speaking of fake, even the face of the BC Liberals is fake...How much plastic surgery and botox has Christy Clark?

If you don`t believe me ask her hairdresser.

Explain away this PRE-SURGERY photo of Christy Clark.?

http://www.readeratwork.net/wp-content/uploads/mvbthumbs/img_8034_christy-clark-and-bc-bud-let-the-party-begin.jpg

But it IS about the money and nothing else.

All the whining is just so much hot air. The HST is part of a nationwide move to simplify taxes. no one likes paying taxes, but it shouldn't take two days per month to calculate them.

For the Love of God, stop with the whining, folks. Hands up all those who like paying them? There you go. Now get on with your life.

But it IS about the money and nothing else.

All the whining is just so much hot air. The HST is part of a nationwide move to simplify taxes. no one likes paying taxes, but it shouldn't take two days per month to calculate them.

For the Love of God, stop with the whining, folks. Hands up all those who like paying them? There you go. Now get on with your life.

so let me get this straight

The tax shift from corporations to consumers is all about simplifying taxes.

If it is all about simplifying taxes why the tax shift? Why not just simplify the collection of taxes?

Hey Fishcounter

Money and taxes are what it's all about. What concerns me is who pays and why does it have to be me instead of the rich multinational corporation. The corporation that has no head, no heart, and could give a dam about the sick child that lives with impoverished parents in this richest province in Canada.

Even Keith Baldrey

Even BC Liberal Keith Baldrey is laughing his head off over the proposed 10% HST fix for 2014...Baldrey goes on to say...

"Christy Clark`s HST fix is NOT -DOABLE"

Baldrey scoffs at the 10% HST and he states.

"A 10% HST will create a huge $billion dollar plus gaping hole in the budget"

Baldrey claims that an 11% hst with zero increase in Government spending MIGHT BE BARELY DOABLE but a 10% HST is a pipedream...

When Keith Baldrey is laughing at Christy Clark and Kevin Falcon`s budget numbers you know it will never happen.

Keith Baldrey wrote that and more in his last Burnaby Now column.

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2011/06/keith-baldrey-slams-christy-clarks-hst.html

alwaysfishn

"The HST gets tax dollars from all the people that don't honestly pay their income taxes and even the rich people with good accountants. It's a well known fact that the drug trade in BC is one of the largest industries in BC. These people spend those income tax free dollars and buy stuff... and finally pay taxes!"

Just like they did before with the GST and HST. Drug dealers and rich people have always paid retail sales taxes, even when buying their Ford Explosions with new, small, crisp, unmarked bills.

Flat taxes aren't progressive. If you're not progressive, you won't care, but most of us care about the people who have too much month left at the end of their money, and now have to find a bunch more money to shell out in the hopes of getting some back in three months from the G-men.

Not to mention the street-poor. Those who collect cans and bottles for a living and sleep rough get little welfare (those that do in fact collect it), no shelter allowance, no GST or HST credit, and no other help, yet have to shell out for each and every item they buy with what little money they get. A guy living in a shopping cart can't afford to buy a kilo of oatmeal in a sack when he's got no place to keep it dry. So he buys the one-serving package of Quaker Instant Breakfast - and pays HST.

I hope you're thinking of him too.

Twer it only so

"It is about a simplified, harmonised tax system that allows one calculation and one collection agency and one set of exemptions."

Ahh Fish Counter, twer it only so. No one objects to streamlining the tax system, despite some suspicion of the feds in more control of the purse strings. If that's all it was about, then this discussion would not be taking place. Even the back handed way it was introduced might have been overlooked.

Its those items that were not taxed under the PST, but now with the HST, directly sucked out of our wallets or downloaded on us by hard pressed, small businesses who also have to pay more to provide many of their services, and all for the smoke and mirrors of future job increases. Immediate costs, distant unknown benefits, trickle down economics again?

PST exemptions could easily be incorporated into a streamlined HST system at little cost. So why isn't that option being offered?

Could it be the headache to Harpo and associates that Quebec, currently under pressure to accept the HST including the money, or other provinces lining up to recoup their former PST exemptions might inflict?

"The ultimate farce is when people complain about the HST on their foreign travels." Its no farce when some people can no longer afford to visit family and friends on the other side of Georgia Straight, never mind elsewhere, and this HST contributes to that injustice, more than just a drop in the bucket.

fishcounter

"The HST is part of a nationwide move to simplify taxes. no one likes paying taxes, but it shouldn't take two days per month to calculate them."

CRA would differ with you. The Tax Code each year increases in complexity with bulletins and rulings, adding a new volume to the multi-volume set every few years. Parliament mostly adds new taxes or adjusts rates, or gives breaks for different classifications, and tax layers come up with clever ways to get around the Code with new loopholes that then increase the complexity again next year.

There is no nationwide move to simplify taxes - it's a figment of your fondest desire, but wholly not based in reality.

It's been fifteen years since I had to fill out a PST Remittance Form 428, but it was one page then, and I'm sure it was only one page on June 30, 2010 too. Took about two minutes once I got good at it, not two days.

Mebbe you should go back to the corporate tax break argument instead...

amor de cosmos

Lowering a corporate income tax rate along with transferring the majority of the burden of taxation onto the consumer within the province impoverishes the BC taxpayer, and engenders a transfer of wealth to taxpayers in other provinces - or even other countries.

The vast majority of business owners taking dividends from companies doing business in the province do not reside in the province - they reside elsewhere in Canada. The value of BC-domiciled public corporations is a miniscule total when set agains the value of those domiciled elsewhere - Ontario, Quebec, Alberta, USA...

As such, dividends substantially flow out of the province and are not taxed here. Corporate profit is also usually transferred out of the province to the primary place of business - just ask HSBC in Canada how much tax the'll pay on profit in Canada this year. Squat, nada, rien, nothing, after their sale to HSBC PLC in London, (domicile, Channel Islands).

We do need a new model for taxation - one that captures the true value of business taking place in the province, but the HST isn't it. Meanwhile, we're reducing what influence we do have over taxation by reducing our coporation tax, and eliminating our ability to influence retail tax policy to suit our own needs.

We will be forever held hostage to a federal government that insists on taxing companies seeking to invest in pulp mills paying full freight on all improvements, while companies seeking to invest in tar sands oil get tax breaks that are in part federally-created.

I'm not much for contracting out, and that includes my tax policy. We're fully capable of doing it efficiently, to serve our own needs.

Breaking News - The Consumer pays all the taxes

Do you know that ultimately the consumer pays the whole tax tab? Think about it.

When you buy a happy meal at Mcdonalds, the product has had many different businesses involved in it's production. The manufacture of the packaging, the growing of the produce, the production of the energy, etc, etc. Each of these businesses has paid taxes along the way. In the end the product you buy has incorporated not only the cost of the product but the cost of the taxes that the business has paid.

When you pay your HST at the till, you are paying taxes on not only product, but on taxes as well. Eliminating the PST has gotten rid of one level of taxation that doesn't get added to your product price. Lowering corporate taxes gets rid of an additional level. In the end you pay all the taxes, however on a lower amount.

So when you hear people complaining about taxes getting passed from business to the consumer.... well get over it. It has been happening since the creation of business and will continue into the future because the end consumer pays ALL the taxes.

And about that rich business owner that is pocketing all the profits... it's a myth. The business owners pays the same taxes we do, at a higher percentage, and he buys the same stuff we do, just more of it and more HST. He doesn't sock his money under his bed, he invests it to expand his business and ends up hiring more people who can now buy more stuff...

The HST, no matter how you feel it was "shoved down your throat" is a tax that makes sense, because it eliminates another level of tax on tax!

thanks, zalm. .....well said:

"A guy living in a shopping cart can't afford to buy a kilo of oatmeal in a sack when he's got no place to keep it dry. So he buys the one-serving package of Quaker Instant Breakfast - and pays HST.

I hope you're thinking of him too."

@ alwaysfishin

You conveniently forget that there is competition for a business owner to provide the lowest possible cost for a product and any tax he/she pays is a tax deduction. That is not the case when the consumer pays for an item with already taxed dollars and is then charged PST as well as the GST the business would have paid.

So we hear the continuous whine from business about having to pay taxes. "Well get over it. It has been going on since the first tax was introduced since Roman times." Now if the system of letting the business owner pay less while everyone paid more actually created a few jobs, we might all be more sympathetic. When they figure out that consumers with less money can't by a businessman's good or services maybe they'll stop whining.

A Poll of Tax on You

Oh but were it true
the tax saving would pass to you.
but we know that that ain't true
as you, the corp's do scerw

Ours is not to do or die
do we know that Christy would never lie?
Don't keep your mouths shut,
speak out and save your but.

Axe that tax to the max,
as needs be done when you know the facts