Oilberta Red Tory

It's not the smell so much (although it is noxious and offensive) as the environmental damage these dorks with their vehicles wreak on the landscape. Once these drunken turds (and I don't mean alcohol) get on a vehicle in the backwoods they act like the idiots they always are anytime they leave home.

I have seen the same attitude in Mexico when they get there. Drunken idiots that do things that wouldn't be allowed back home in Canada or their neighboufhood. This is the same attitude these so called civilized people display once they get on a ATV.

How it is!

"boys will be boys"!
Some boys get older and find bigger sandboxes to play in, so they can escape real life.
Those who cannot afford an ATV settle for an off-road bike or a beat up old pick up truck; anything that can make noise and create a lot of dust and controversy.
When it turns cold we get the snowmobile out, same thing.
Very few of them have any reason whatsoever to be out there, and many should probably be doing their chores, but what the heck, eh?
This is the male version of the useless generation, the female version are in the mall or on the phone.
Sorry I have no construtive advice, as I see it we are screwed by our own kids!

Constructive advice, eh?

Here are at least a couple of pointers!

Some of the kids in my generation, who would otherwise never have learned veneration for the outdoors got it trough the scout movement. So how is it doing now? Well the 'busyness' of double-yuppie parents and the resulting unpopularity of volunteerism met in the middle with the abject fear of vicarious liability and replaced the old-time volunteers with hired briefcase animals, who undertook the streamlining and marketing of the new scouting 'experience'. This killed off about half of the scout movement. Check the numbers for yourself. I don't know where it is at now, as I get to crying when I look too closely. But part of the answer could lie there. There was also the story of how the volunteer-based financing of the scouts through casino nights got squelched, because the then-NDP government could not let such a big juicy source of funding be controlled by volunteers of Gods-know what political stripe. So, they co-opted the control and ultimately gave most of the money to the boys-and-girls clubs (this happened because there were some fancy rules about how one figures what an organization is, and where the way the scouts were organized virtually guaranteed they would not qualify for funding), which seem to not quite foster the same intense engagement with raw nature as scouting does. The flip side is that it is less 'elitist' if you want to see it that way. But I would respectfully submit, that even the youth who have suffered hardship may be inspired by a bit of 'elitism', so it boils down to the government of the day appropriating the turf because they could.

I don't think we are being screwed by our kids, I think we screwed them. If this sad disconnect can be reversed I don't know, but at least we ought to try. Where will YOU pitch your family tent this summer?

Thanks

I recently wrote an article about some B.C. backcountry tenure and tourism issues here http://www.kmcmag.com/features/KMC16_featureI.pdf

That research suggested several other articles that needed to be written, and the ATV situation was one of them. Jim Cooperman beat me to it. Good article, thanks.

Oh no, not more legislation.

I think people should mind their own business and mind their own children if they have any.

With regard to this article it’s like so many others I’ve seen that beckon an ever-growing parasitical nanny state to legislate all human behavior, no matter how mundane or remote, for the sake of “safety”, “security”, and the “environment."

More government bureaucracy, meddling and higher taxes to hunt and prosecute ATVers, dirt bikers and other off-roaders. Well if you can make potatoes illegal I suppose you can make just about anything illegal.

Fine Them to The Max

Every weekend I see the male dirt bikers/ATVers SPEEDING along the highway, throwing out McDonalds bags and Tim Horton cups as they rush to the wilderness for a little R&R. Cliche? Yes. But also true. They tear up fragile plants, terrorize animals, use up a non-renewable resource all in the name of "fun." I bet they love Jet-Skis too.
When will we rise above our selfish, self-indulgent desires and think of the greater good?

Spoiling the experience

I recall camping one time when the noise of one of these yahoos on a 4 wheel ATV was spoiling our peace and quiet. As it was getting quite late, we asked him to stop. He told us in a very firm to tone to 'relax'. He did not stop until he was ready.

Yes, I heard the announcement the other day about regulating this 'activity'. However, it was also linked to the BC Liberal policy to double tourism by 2015. Great stuff, Liberal friends get breaks to make 'risky' investments in resorts, and the benefit is low-paying, seasonal service jobs. Stunning economic development policy -- a two-tiered society. How completely Un-Canadian!

Are we a backwater or what?

Dorothy - excellent comment

A childless friend in Toronto observed that the most well-adjusted and grounded kids she met had the common factor of being in Scouting in some form. She saw that connection and appreciation of nature as powerful and important.

I was in both Cubs and Scouts and my father was involved as a Scout leader. Frankly, my son is too busy to get involved with Scouts. However, we do lots of activities that get him in contact with nature.

I was not aware of the different influences that have diminished participation in Scouting in BC and how the experience has been diminished. Thanks for that.

The Irony

Unfortunately, when it comes to nature, or even when it comes to one’s own body, many of us, whether as individuals, or governments, or corporations, etc., have a real disconnect between what we do and the direct and the collateral damage that results.

When it comes to the havoc we can inflict upon nature, the intensity of the damage depends a lot on the volume of the participants and the type of recreation. All things being equal, one conscientious hiker going through the wilderness has less of an effect on nature than 100, or 1,000, or 10,000 conscientious folks doing the same thing. Throw in less than conscientious people, or throw in damaging and polluting machinery, or throw in damaging and polluting machinery in combination with less than conscientious people, and the damage can be mind numbing.

If we can’t bring ourselves to do what is best for nature or for the ‘common good,’ we will increasingly need to have rules thrust upon us; otherwise wants lead us to do what makes us feel good, or powerful, or rich (or whatever floats our boat), regardless of the consequential damage.

The irony in this particular case is that wilderness areas we increasingly crave visiting, or ‘conquering,’ don’t remain wild once they are breached.

Gas tax

This is where the gas tax should go. A tax of $5 000 or $10 000 on each of these vehicles would help curtail their use. They are ecologically unsound and unsustainable.
I remember a couple of colleagues discussing their latest skidoo trip to the mountains above the tree line. They were lamenting the fact that they did not see any caribou. They didn't get the idea that their noisy machines might just scare them off or perhaps destroy their habitat so they can't live there anymore.

Peak oil

There's also the coming peak oil problem, which will make such pursuits more and more expensive.

Did you see this article?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/11/10/iea-whistleblower-accuses-agency-of-downplaying-oil-shortage.html

RELAX!

First of all, I understand all of your concerns. I think perhaps some of us are overreacting.

Lets drop all the stereotypes.. Are you sure that its is JUST the offroaders that are littering? I bet not! People will be "Idiots" no matter who they are or what they are riding. So lets drop the childish name calling as well.
These guys are tearing up and damaging the TERRAIN.. we can see what is happening here and it can be restored. WHAT ABOUT THE OCEAN?? Go complain about something that we cant see the damage and cant restore, you will be doing a greater good than complaining about a few people having a good time.

I do care about the environment.. but I dont sit in my house or my office and complain other people abusing it. I play in it.. I do go off the beaten path and have impact on the natural world, and it makes me love it. I bet those loud idiots that should be taxed and regulated will be shouting the loudest when the land they have been playing on is up next to be logged or developed into Condos or a Walmart. You know that the Duck Hunters with their loud dangerous guns started Ducks Unlimited? And you know that the sport and commercial fishers are fighting together against fish farms? You do realize that it s the users who are going to fight the hardest when their playground is threatened?

Let these people play, dont judge them or decide you are better than them because you choose a different way to play.. just teach your kids to be respectful to the planet..

We did not inherit the world from our ancestors, we are borrowing it from our children...

Mountains vs. Molehills

Whoa! Talk about micro-managing here in the comments section. While certain forest companies continue to rip through old growth forests and new mining roads continue to threaten pristine wilderness, we worry about coffee cups tossed by a few yahoo’s from their ATVs? Fishgirl is right… relax.

Yes, I too have witnessed 4x4ers and ATVer’s carelessy driving through fish bearing streams and recklessly driving over alpine meadows. No excuse for that stupidity.

I do like some of the possible solutions that are presented in this article, but pick some areas that need to be protected (Duffy Lake area), and don’t sweat some of the other areas so much (e.g. Stave Lake).

When we address some of the bigger environmental issues first, we can then take to time to go after some of the yahoos. But right now, it’s kind of like putting your efforts into catching the car stereo thieves when the white collar criminal is bilking millions from pension funds.

Last time I checked the Fraser River sockeye went missing. Let’s stop looking for the red herrings.

And is anyone concerned...

About the husge slash and burns going on in the province. I ca see three of these lighting up the sky from my place.What about the woodlots that are supposed to take dead pine but cut millions of live trees and chew up the ground under their machines.
Or the roads that the ruin of the river are cutting into their "gifts from Campbell"
I don't hear you people crying about that. All I ever hear is "oh that's the way it is". Christ

death and taxes

Interesting discussion going on. Let's face it, the public is going to continue to use public lands (private lands too) in a manner that is legal and allowable and the Government drawing up rules and restrictions on the use of these lands only leads to taxation for the use of these lands... and there is nothing wrong with that.

It is when there is no accounting for the cost of the use of public lands that we run into problems. If the Government in Victoria is going to start licensing ATV's then the monies generated by the permit fees should go directly to increasing the number of people the Forestry Service has in the back-country to deal with the bad eggs, who I am sure are responsible for a majority of the damage. When our neighbourhood formed a block watch, the police told us that the majority of the property crime in Vancouver was the result of a small group of recidivist addicts. Maybe that's just the way it is, most people behave appropriately, unfortunately some do not and for this all must share the cost to repair the damage done by those ignorant few.

I also think that a purchase tax needs to be imposed on these infernal combustion engines and this tax, along with any fines levied against abusers (which should be very steep), be applied directly to repairing the damage done to the Kettle Valley and Trans-Canada trails.

Let these people play?

If play is destroying sensitive lands then no wonder we're in the state we're in.
As we get greater choices in what we can do, (thanks to more consumer goods, technology, disposable income) we have to examine what that "play" is doing to our world. Of course we shouldn't ignore what goes beyond the back woods. There's destruction everywhere.
We're all guilty, myself included. Don't make excuses.
Tell me, where is the sanity in roaring through the woods, spewing smoke, ripping up the moss? Progress I guess.

The licencing of ATV's is long overdue in BC

The damage being done by ATV's to wildflower meadows in and around Nanaimo is criminal. ATV drivers have absolutely no respect for private property or natural resources. I have worked on a place called Harewood Plains for five years to conserve the wildflowers. Every square metre of the open meadows has been ploughed up by tire tracks. They ride on the Hydro right-of-way and start serious forest fires on private forestry property, to the tune of over $1 million in damage and fire control costs.

The threat from fires is the main cause for public concern. Add to that illegal hunting, with rifles in an urban area and cowboy garbage dumping and you have a very expensive headache for law enforcement.

I just got my small boat operator's licence. As a 60 year-old, I know my way around boats and it rankles to have to get a licence, but that licence makes all operators responsible under the criminal code if they kill someone. I have been the victim of reckless boat use enough times to know that operators need to know how to use a boat properly.

There have been enough deaths from reckless ATV use to warrant licencing and insurance. To hell with the frontier mentality. Owning a vehicle doesn't mean you own every inch of Vancouver Island. BC is just following the lead from other provinces who enacted this legislation years ago.

One driver in Nanaimo killed himself with his ATV last year, and another tore one eye out. They both had families who are now dependent on welfare. Rugged individualism is great, but pay your family's bills before you kill yourself.

There is a need for places where off-roaders can ride, such as gravel pits and race tracks but not wildflower meadows and private property. If drivers don't understand that, maybe they will understand criminal charges and confiscation of their vehicles.

Stereotypes

"This is the male version of the useless generation, the female version are in the mall or on the phone."

Alive, your comments are ridiculous. To assume that all females would rather be at the mall than in the backcountry... plenty of young women (and men) hike, mountain bike and partake in backcountry activites that do no damage to the environment. Chalking it up to the age-old lame excuse that "boys will be boys" is pathetic. It is a select few selfish individuals who'd rather ride these machines than use good ol' natural muscle power.
And in case you live in a cave- EVERYONE is on a phone.

earn you rewards, please!

Fii:
Actually I don't care how either gender waste their time, I was pointing out that often it is non-productive if not destructive!
That attitude is arrived at by listening to the commercials telling them: " You deserve a break today "
Even if they have not done anything to actually deserve anything!
If you want to get picky, mountain bikes are doing a lot of damage as well.

Banish all of them

All of these backcountry vehicles- ATVs, bikes should be banned from public trails and confined to their own designated areas where they have to pay for use. There's simply no excuse for the inestimable damage they wreak on nature. No wonder, as the article says, Europeans who visit and hike in our parks are apalled at the noise and disturbance.

Indeed, how can you enjoy nature while speeding along on a bike? I'm not stereotyping the participants- I know they come from all backgrounds and display varying levels of skill and responsibility. However, nature was not meant to be tormented by these vehicles. It's your own business if you wish to risk your life and limb, but they shouldn't be allowed to mix with hikers and trail walkers.

The problem is in BC is this moral relativity that says that everyone's opinion is right and valid and deserves consideration. Unfortunately, in the real world, this isn't always the case. Can someone explain to me what reenacting breakneck video games by speeding through a park has to do with enjoying nature? Sure, perhaps the ATV rider will enjoy the view when he or she stops to take a look. Otherwise, they do nothing but tear up nature in their wake.

No, these recreational riders can argue all they want about how they respect nature, but their very presence and activity is destructive to nature, contrary to any idea about learning or appreciating nature around you while leaving a minimal footprint.

Not so long ago...

...TLC bought the Haourbourview lands in Sooke and locked out the off-roaders. Suddenly, the beer cans, shotgun shells, McDonalds bags, bumpers and oil bottles stopped showing up on the trail. Wetlands that had been turned into muddy soup began to recover. Flower meadows that had been stripped to bare rock began to grow in.

The mountain bike club put a lot of work into building and maintaining trails (indeed, they're the only trail users who do) and hikers and nature lovers could finally enjoy a safe, quiet time.

But now they're coming back. The noise is back, the garbage is back and the trails are turning into unrideable, unwalkable trenches again.

I say ban ORVs from all but designated areas and seize them wherever they appear outside those areas.

“So lets drop the childish

“So lets drop the childish name calling as well.”

OK, you are free to do that if you wish, but you really can’t tell others what to do. Do you spend a lot of time at the head of a class room?

“I dont sit in my house or my office and complain other people abusing it. I play in it.. I do go off the beaten path and have impact on the natural world”.

Totally open-ended claim. What kind of impact? We cannot take it as an argument for or against anything, if you don’t specify.

“Let these people play, dont judge them or decide you are better than them because you choose a different way to play..”

A lot of playing going on here, apparently. However, given that premise, yeah, there are better and poorer ways of doing so. And if you choose one of the better ways, you’re being better than those who choose one of the poorer ways. Have you thought about the logical consequences of deciding that one thing can be as good as another? It steers into nihilistic thinking, that nothing really matters a tinker’s dam. Maybe that IS where you’re coming from…?

“We did not inherit the world from our ancestors, “

Yes, we did, for good or ill.

“we are borrowing it from our children...”

Yes to that, too. Past, present, future, the basic formula of this cosmos. We are the present, and if we screw it up, we make the past for nothing and ruin the future. Fearsome power, and also awesome possibility. Much more than ‘just another way of playing’

We had a woodlot licence ...

The discussion here seems to be about wild land, which is a mysterious category. Where the heck is wild land in BC? So far as I know, every inch of BC territory is linked to some form of ownership and/or stewardship. So, in my view, that makes every ATV driver an intruder.

Every country person has their horror stories, like when skidoos or ATVs run through the woods bullying wildlife or crushing saplings. It happened around us, in our country life. But I remember most vividly the man and his wife who interrupted one of our quiet Sundays with their snowmobile intrusion.

At first, we couldn't believe our ears: the roaring, stalling, re-starts plus yelling was happening about 15 feet from where we sat. Looking out the windows, we saw a snowmobile clawing its way up the berm which we had carefully constructed, so as to have a small patch of lawn in front of our house.

I can still see their happy faces, the guy and his wife, who seemed quite sure that we were rushing out to help them. No such thing.

"What do you think you're doing?" I shrieked.

"Suppose I brought a snowmobile to your place in town, and tried running it across YOUR lawn?" shouted my husband.

And in that moment, there was the complete picture of what's wrong. The intruders were just that, but they didn't even know it.

These days, my ex-husband has an ATV and uses it judiciously to go from A to B on country roads. I think he likes the zany throwback to Four Wheels and a Seat, but it's a fleeting pleasure.

He once described how slowly our environmental awareness develops. "Just imagine," he said, "if you could give a power-saw to a squirrel, he'd cut down every tree in the forest." I think that explains why there are people wreck-reating in what's left of our forest lands. They just haven't thought through to the consequences of rip-roaring around in the woods.

atvs and the environment

This is definitely an issue that affects the entire province. Here in NE BC provincial park trails designed for walking are being torn up and used for hunting within the park. After they kill an animal they drag it out of the park with the atv and gut it just outside the park boundary leaving the mess behind to attract coyotes and wolves. The government is great at coming up with new taxes fees and laws to solve the problem but does not want to pay for enforcing those same laws. The last line in the article about creating a new back woods culture is a good point. Ultimately attitudes are what drive behaviour. People think it is their birthright to own and drive an atv. The prevailing theme is this. Redneck father works hard making the big bucks and thinks that an ATV would be a good reward for trading his soul for his job. Plus he thinks that it would be a good way to keep his brat of a son occupied with something besides tv and video games. He is so busy working that he only gets to ride it on long weekends but he unleashes his immature son on the world armed to the teeth with a vehicle with few limitations. Disturbing the peace becomes an idle pastime and only rarely do the police actually write these morons a ticket ranging from $600-1000. Even at that it does not stop them for long. So far government response has been a total failure. An ATV park was built outside of town where you must load up the ATV on a truck or trailer to get it there. So the park is unused most of the time except for competitions. Certain trails should be set aside for atv use. This has not happened here yet. Specific trails for atv use are common in California. The provincial government has contributed to makeing the problem worse in the backcountry by deactivating resource roads. You used to be able to travel these roads with a pickup now an atv is required and the distances are such that walking is not practical. Besides being able to traverse most terrain atvs also use fuel much more efficiently than a pickup or car. Habitat degredation and noise are the worst problems with these machines not to mention the high risk of injury and perpetual drain on finances these $10 000 wonder machines inflict on their owners.

Offspring

This habit is the fiend child of a culture with an excess of petroleum.

Petroleum is the root cause here.

Blubber on Rubber.

If you spend any warm weather time along the east slope of the Rockies in Alberta you would be totally amazed at the endless numbers of people "roughing it" in thousands of fifth-wheel trailers, literally parked by the dozen on every flat spot.

Then there are the fat people riding everywhere on ATVs. Blubber on Rubber.

The environmental destruction is incredible.

On the other(slightly more athletic) side of the Great Divide in Eastern B.C. the mountain bikers that ride straight down, across the contours, have started thousands of little gullies that will turn into big gullies. Mountain bikes have a really negative environmental impact too.

Perhaps everyone from the cities should just stay home in their little cement caves and watch Opra.

No Bobby

The notion that the "...problem...in BC is this moral relativity that says that everyone's opinion is right and valid and deserves consideration." ...is not the problem in British Columbia or in the woods.

The thinking which has ruined this province is the notion that, as long as you have some MONEY (the more the better and more powerful it makes you), you can do exactly what you want - no matter how it hurts either the environment or the rest of the population.

G West

And fostered by this present government.......which believes that every buck is a good buck.

I don't see the disagreement here...

"...this moral relativity that says that everyone's opinion is right and valid and deserves consideration."

"...the notion that, as long as you have some MONEY (the more the better and more powerful it makes you), you can do exactly what you want..."

Isn't this really the same thing? In the end, after your possibly lousy opinion has got proper 'consideration' and has been passed as a matter of course, then the only thing barring you from acting on it would be insufficient funding. So, to me, in the final analysis, there is no disagreement in saying either one or the other of these two things - they result in the same practical reality...

As far as 'a good buck', the reality has to be that a staggering number of fellow citizens share that view. Otherwise, why is Wal-mart still in business, and why have I not yet seen as much as one miserable Christmas decoration item for sale in a mainstream store that was other than 'made in China'. We know that the 'bucks' we save thereby are saved through using child labor, possibly slave labor, zero worker protection, absolute failure to accord human status to said workers, and thereby should be very bad bucks; nevertheless they are happily slurped up by a vast majority. I guess we don't really have the people behind us there...

That doesn't mean we're wrong. It just means we got our task cut out for us...

Dorothy

No.

They are very different things. A wide variety of opinions within a diverse society is a good thing...it teaches all of us to learn respect for others and their values, though not necessarily to accept, agree with, or act upon them.

Having read Bobby critically for some time, I think he pines for a thankfully distant past when an authority figure of one kind or another was around to sort out the various 'opinions' and enforce some of them while ignoring others.

His view implies there is some kind of definitive 'moral' or ethical standpoint which, had the proper authorities enough power, would be forced upon everyone.

My view is quite different. I'm prepared to live in society where we sort these things out on an individual and community basis - so long as (as is the case now) some daddy Warbucks with a fat wallet can't come in and settle the score by plunking down a handful of cash.

Money is, in my view, a worse dictator than the church or the state...there is no appeal from the cash register...and that's the problem with this province today.

Short, probably incomplete, but all I have time for today.

It's All Relative...

GWest- Despite being demonized daily by the left wing in this province, I think most beleaguered, middle class people in BC would rather see the Liberals running BC than the NDP. I don't know why people vilify Campbell with personal attacks, but the stink the NDP left in the 90s is still palpable. But, we're getting off topic here. The NDP still has to get its head around working with big business and being economically credible. Because the bottom line is that you need money to solve the homeless problem and build the kind of society we want.

No, it's not 'the rich' who destroy the parks with ATVs. After all, ATVs are relatively cheap and farmers and other people who aren't rich use them. It's simply a question of regulation and the ability to enforce regulation. Most of the people using ATVs and motocross bikes aren't there to enjoy or preserve the environment; they are simply there to use the environment for their own pleasure without regard to the environment.

No matter what the ATV advocates say, nothing they do can minimize the damage to nature because their very presence and activities are a menace. They should confine their activities to their own purpose built trails.

'IT' is their attitude - Bobby

That's what creates the disregard. The wealthy say 'screw you' to their neighbours - people pick up on the disrespect and what we're seeing is the result - writ large.

The last thing we need is more dictators like Harper, Ignatieff and Campbell.

Socialism isn't a panacea - it is a big part of the solution...along with universal respect for others and a final ditching of the idea that a pile of money, in the end, means very much.

I'm no ATV advoacte - but it's only a symptom of a greater malaise, in my view.

For the last 30 years we've been going downhill in this country - this is just another symptom of the rot.

I get it

Gwest: I understand where you're coming from. I, too, miss Canada's communitarian capitalism- a European like socialism that set us apart. But the reality is that a few generations of immigration brought immigrants who didn't share these values. And the fact that we live next door to the US means that we are more likely to share or be exposed to their cultural values. So it's not only the recent immigrants who don't share these traditional Canadian beliefs, but longstanding Canadian citizens, whatever race and creed, whose value systems and beliefs become more American.

Like it or not, 80% of our popular culture is American. Few Canadians have any idea of how Sweden or Norway operate. Even fewer have been there. So we are like crazy prophets in the forest, talking to no one. I would rather work with what Canadian culture has to offer than to hope for some groundswelling change that will never arrive.

Quite a few

people in BC know how Sweden, Norway, and Denmark operate. The truth, however, is that most of us actually take to heart the dictum we are met with, when we come here: OK, go ahead and share your art stuff and your history and your folk dancing. But leave your damned politics at home! This is Canada and we do things the Canadian way. If you don't like it here, you can go back where you came from.

Now, if you're from a place where survival values are more in the foreground of daily life, and you're used to being pushy, you might just walk all over these sentiments. However, this isn't the way things are done in Scandinavia. So we set about 'adjusting'. Now you are saying, if I hear you correctly, that this is NOT what you really want us to do? You want us to get a mop and pail and set about scrubbing the cobwebs and muck out of Canadian culture? Are you aware what you are asking for? Keep in mind that GB is our former neighbor and for many years most important trading partner (I spent two damned years in school practicing the imperial system of measurement backwards, forwards and in my sleep.) We are not full of veneration for all things English as a ground rule. Not to mention that the label 'Lutheran' as carried by most Danes at least, and I wager most Scandinavians, would not be recognizable as such by any good Bavarian or Saxon, adjusted as it is to all sorts of pragmatic considerations. The experience might easily play out as the super-nanny taken to Canadian mores and sentiments. Not that we aren't loving our new country, but we are the true experts in tough love, in case you didn't know.

I can see the mantra being adopted quite quickly being something in the likeness of "I would rather work with what Canadian culture has to offer".

Good choice.