The Beijing government is looking for

Thousands of disappeared former Chinese bureaucrats as well as billions of missing dollars.

No Canadians qualified...

The recruiters, mining company, the BC and federal governments are right to argue that no Northern BC workers are going to pay $12,500 for job...so they are not qualified for these mining jobs.
As fed minister Finlay has often said, Canada allows companies to import foreign temps 'only' when Canadian workers are not qualified to do the work.

(I know my thinking seems bizarre, but I am trying to keep in the spirit of this story.)

Shit, and I was only making a

Shit, and I was only making a flippant remark about the 'head-tax' a couple of days ago (when it was reported in the Tyee). I wonder how the Chinese Canadians, whose families had to pay the head tax, are going to think now? So much for the Governments apology to those people a couple of years ago.

Nice

Pathetic, how about this..NO FOREIGN WORKERS!!!

There...problem solved

Force an Election

I think it is time too force a provincial election NOW. This is another LIEBRAL tatic by none other Crusty Cristy. Her promise of all these jobs that BC was supposed to be getting from China. Thank you Crusty for another LIE from the Liberal Government when do the lies stop

I'm I reading this right? For

I'm I reading this right? For a Canadian, to get a job in one of these Chinese run mines, in Canada, has to speak Mandarin? If they don't speak the lingo, too bad, so sad, they're not qualified? Silly me, I thought the only official languages in Canada was English and French. Now it's Mandarin too.

Capitalist Collusion

Stolen Canadian jobs from Canadian resources being sold by Capitalist Communists, now that is Lieberal and CONservative progress.Too bad no one has ever heard of training or Westray. "We the Sheepeople" need to wake up and become "We THE People" for the first time in history! .

Same bunk different century

My grandfather mined coal in Drumheller, Alberta in the 1920's and this is exactly what happened back then. I have the old newspaper clips. The mine owners flooded the mine labour market with foreign workers and my grandparents spent the winter in a sod hut with my aunts and my Dad. When are Canadians going to take control of their natural resources.

2 questions???

I thought the temporary workers' were only allowed to work in Canada for 6 to 9 months (temporary)but this story seems to suggest they can spend 4 years as "temporary workers. Q1. Which is correct 6-9 months or 4 years?
Q2. Where is the immigration scrutiny of these foreign workers and their families during the hiring process if they can apply to immigrate to Canada "after 6 months"?

What's the big deal? It's a

What's the big deal?

It's a free market isn't it? Asymmetries of information are a part of that...many miners in China possibly wouldn't have known about the opportunity for lucrative work overseas without the recruiters' efforts.

And the whole scheme is only possible because Canadian wages are so far out of line with those prevailing in the rest of the world. The only real, lasting solution is for government here to cease propping up wages and stop limiting labour competition by controlling borders.

Ironically I paid $350 for a position teaching in CHINA in 1992. It changed my life - for the better.

What do we expect?

What do we expect from a government (pair of governments) whose ideological inspiration is totally free markets? They're probably annoyed that they're expected to uphold labour standards (such as they are).

When government and big capital collude, the people to suffer are always the workers (Chinese or Canadian, in this case), and sometimes the clients, who are hoodwinked into buying from what they perceive to be a fair market when it's actually one in which employees are being exploited and bullied, allowing the excess profit to go to the employers.

Kredit

"What's the big deal?"

Do you really not understand the issues at play here or are you simply pretending?

As for your wish that Canada cease to exist and allow people from all over the world to come and go as they please... that would mean you won't collect your old age pension cheque from the government.

@Kreditanstalt

Kreditanstalt

No, it ISN'T a free market, it's international trade. If it were then you could just bring in a kid from Bangladesh to do your job for half the wage.

The reason you got your teaching job in China is beacause there is a lack of English speakers there, making you a sought after employee, hence the special permission to go there and work. There are plenty of coal miners in BC. So what if they want more, cost of living is more.

Plus you paid a one time fee of $350. These people want the equalivent of more than $100,000 dollars going by Chinese miner wages for these jobs.

Smarten up.

Also, Kreditanstalt

Go to a coal mining town in China and apply for a job, watch what happens.

Note to Messer's Harper etc

The doctrine of odious debts: "...If a despotic power incurs a debt not for the needs or in the interest of the State, but to strengthen its despotic regime, to repress the population that fights against it, etc., this debt is odious for the population of all the State.... This debt is not an obligation for the nation; it is a regime's debt, a personal debt of the power that has incurred it, consequently it falls with the fall of this power."

According to Kreditan....

...the Chinese can't read an advertisement so they need a recruiter to charge them $20,000. That ia just fine. We all need to work for wages equal to a Chinese worker but he doesn't say whether he would be prepared to take a cut in pay. Boy Kreditan, you really taxed your brain on that one.

Christy Clark, Stephen Harper......

snakeheads.....

Kredit - What planet do you live on?

You always seem to have a really perverted way of looking at topics. It's as if everyone is looking at the topic and making comments on what they perceive as being corrupt or wrong. And then you look at it and come up with the complete opposite. You clearly don't care about Canadians being employed in their own country; you don't care about these Chinese workers being ripped off by these companies and recruiters; and you obviously aren't concerned that "the training and letter from the company could be provided for an extra 1,000 yuan ($160 CAD)", which puts into question whether these workers have any experience at all and are just paying for a letter to state that they have experience. This whole situation just reeks of corruption and governments who say one thing and then treat their business friends very nicely so that Canadians and BCers get screwed!

uh huh

"snakeheads....."

Yup, totally legal snakeheads who have likely bought off the premier!

Investing in slavery

Oh, how you Capitalist-Communists now running this country and this province love the slave business.....

Now your true place in history is clear for all to see.

I don't believe it

It's easy to see how outsourcing manufacturing jobs works but who'd a thunk it that somebody would figure out how to outsource mining jobs.

I think it's about time we tried outsourcing our politicians. As scary as that sounds at least they'd be under contract to look after our interests first.

WHAT A CRIME!!!

This should be looked at by the attorney general, or at least a trial judge. Criminal pure and simple!!!

political contributions

According to Elections BC's Financial Reports and Political Contributions System, Canadian Dehua International made a political contribution of $3,800 to the BC Liberals in 2005 while a Nai-Sun Liu is listed as donating $2,000 the BC Liberals in 2011.

Time for Clark to Take a Stand, Again

Its time. Time for Clark to take a stand, to admit that She did not tell us the truth or did not understand the true nature of the agreement. This project needs to curtailed until the company agrees provide employment for Canadians able to converse in one or both of our official languages, to providing training opportunities in the specific techniques it claims our miners lack,agrees to stringent oversight of health and safety programs, and can prove it will operate in an environmentally responsible manner. Even if they are allowed to use guest workers, we have a responsibility to make sure they are not being exploited, they are paid fair industry wages, that their health and safety are monitored and protected. There is nothing in this deal which seems to benefit Canada, BC, or the workers themselves, in fact in may be in our best interest to cancel this deal in its entirety until such time as we can be sure that our province, our country, Canadian workers, and the environment, are going to be protected, advantaged, and rewarded.

Admit you don't believe in free markets...

Someone just answer the question:

Should it be acceptable to use government force to compel private companies to hire more expensive labour?

Does this raise prices to the companies' customers?

Does paying these higher-than-necessary wages help companies compete in selling their products internationally?

Kreditanstalt

@Kreditanstalt

You have a complete lack of understanding of this. These don't have a right to work here unless a bunch of rules are perverted for them, which is what happened.

As well, I love how it's all about the "free market" until a blue collar guy from Dawson Creek wants an extra $2 an hour. Then suddenly laws are changed to bring in foreign slaves.

There's a difference between a free market and government collusion to plot against CANADIANS. The people who pay taxes, defend the borders and live here have every right to expect something in return from their nation.

Pacific Scandal all over again?

Remember the corruption and abuse (especially of Chinese workers) during the building of the CPR? John A MacDonald's Conservatives lost the election because of it. Seems we don't learn much from history. Take note Christy.

Dear god give me strength

Kredit, yes, of course it should acceptable for government to compel private companies to hire more expensive labour. If the companies don't want to then they know where the border is and are FREE to leave anytime. The resources and excellent market for goods will stay here.

Kredit : "Does this raise prices to the companies' customers?"

Probably, but why should we care if China has to pay more for coal?

Kredit : "Does paying these higher-than-necessary wages help companies compete in selling their products internationally?"

Again, why would we care if a Chinese company has to charge more, or reduce its profit margin, to Chinese citizens?

There's nothing in it for Canadians if Chinese companies hire Chinese workers, whether it be in China or in Canada. But if it is in Canada we have the right to tell them what the rules are.

If you want a borderless world go find a country without them.

Just a thought

Is it just me or does it show a lot of chutzpah for someone who avails himself of social programs paid for by Canadian workers to demand those Canadian workers reduce their wages till they match the worst-paid workers in the world?

stupidity

Kreditanstalt....... Of course it is a big deal and you know it is. Do you or any of us want our work force to be made up of workers paying extortion payments to God knows who so they can come work here. Next thing Canadians will be paying an entrance fee to get a job.

We are heading to the bottom fast, do you think it is time to Keel-Haul the Captain.

Mutiny.

@Frank

I'm obviously not going to change any minds here but people should know nothing is black-and-white...

I'll forego the argument for individual liberty and talk only economics.

Everyone participating in this discussion is stuck in class warfare mode, sees nothing wrong with protectionism and is afraid of free competition in labour.

Do you REALLY think Canadians can continue to be paid $15-$20 or $25/hour+benefits+pensions? At what point will foreign customers just go elsewhere? At what point will job creation just not be worth the cost?

HINT: why are we exporting raw logs? It's NOT because someone is getting rich doing it. It's NOT because the forest compaanies and the government are colluding. It's likely not even because the government WANTED to allow it. I'm sure they didn't.

It's because Canadian labour costs to mill that lumber are too high. We've lost the market for cut lumber.

We have to begin to slowly move Canadian salaries and living standards toward world levels or we will wake up one day to find that a small bunch of unionized resource and public sector employees in this province have the few remaining well-paid jobs while 80% of the people are unemployed, part-timers or waiting tables.

Structural unemployment is going to soar.

So how is circling the wagons, closing the borders, running up enormous debts, attempting to dictate prices and wages and prohibiting labour competition going to make us more competitive?

Sometimes I just think people believe B.C. is an island. Someone, somewhere is terriby afraid of competition and very insecure...

And do you think things have gotten better?

Well-paid jobs are disappearing, structural unemployment is here to stay, personal debt is skyrocketing and we all know the numbers of part-timers and unemployed are a hell of a lot higher than government statistics claim.

And this is NOT because some hated party is in government! It's unstoppable, and we'd better start adjusting to it.

Please ignore Kredit

Please ignore Kredit, perhaps he's just trying to stir the pot. His perspective is little different from PM Harper's narrow economic frame. What he calls "Free Markets" are anything but.

Perhaps he ought to read the latest Canada-China, secretive and externally binding deal to see the hypocracy of so called, "free market" deals.

Haven't seen Harper's latest 2012-13 omnibus budget yet, but I bet that the environmental components all fit into the jigsaw of this ludicrous trade deal, which is about to be locked in for up to 30 years by Nov. 1, 2012, without so much as a parliamentary debate.

Interesting contradictions, we have high unemployment, yet we are told that we need many more skilled workers.

Can't blame Canadians for not wanting to work in below-ground coal mines. Life can be short and brutish, think coal dust little better than asbestos. Only desperation really drives people into the underworld. $80 an hour ain't enough.

Trouble is that right across the board, governments are afraid of suggesting that we may need "higher taxes" (that's how we got into so many P3 messes) for fear of alienating big corporations, including "big media", to pay for needed education and training of our own workers, that those same corporations claim to need desperately.

So raiding other nations' qualified workers or scamming certification for truly unqualified ones becomes the rule, this leading to money makers which never go back into the productive parts of the system, rather they go into government approved scam artists', er, recruiting agencies' pockets, that contribute nearly nothing to the legitimate process but reap huge cash benefits.

Perhaps we need a new name for extreme corruption, because treason and sedition just don't seem to fit the Bill anymore.

oye, again....

People like you, kreditansalt don't understand that Canada is wealthy. We have the most valuable thing of all, raw materials. We don't need to reduce our labour costs to get customers. These companies will make a profit either way and bringing in workers like this is just them trying to expand that profit, just as asking for higher wages is the worker excercising his capitalistic rights.

As for this comment

"I'll forego the argument for individual liberty and talk only economics.

Everyone participating in this discussion is stuck in class warfare mode, sees nothing wrong with protectionism and is afraid of free competition in labour."

Why is it only called "class warfare" when those of us who aren't millionaires fight back when people are attacking our wages and livelyhood? You, sir are a pawn of the upper class.

As well, all your analysis is moot anyway because loads of people are now saying this is totally illegal.

Closing up our borders? OUr borders are FAR more open than China's and they seem to be doing fine.

Admit it

Kreditanstalt doesn't know what a free market is, or what its utility is.

Answer me this:

Should it be government policy to compel those who wish to issue a notional scrip in various denominations in order to facilitate commerce, to do so with a minimum amount of his own wealth to guarantee a reserve?

Should it be government policy to compel those who wish to seize and use common resources to do so using established rules for use and ownership that favour no-one?

Should it be government policy to compel those who wish to practice as professionals of any sort - medical, legal, arcthitectural, engineering - to establish and meet minimum standards of trade and expertise?

Should it be government policy to maintain a large armed forces to project power into other countries and to enforce the establishment of contracts over sovereigns in other nations?

Should it be government policy to permit government-granted coercive monopolies called "corporations" to operate under different and more liberal rules than human beings seeking the same liberty?

I know your answer is "No" to all these things, which indicates how far out of step you are with economists of all stripes, from Hayek to Singer to Walras, all of whom note that there is no "perfect" competition, no "free" market anywhere in the world, and that capitalism as it is practiced anywhere in the world today largely and in some cases inevitably, leads to market failures and even monopoly or monopsony.

No "free market", no "perfect competition", and as Rothbard said in For a New Liberty, no absolute and uncompromising liberty anywhere in the world either. And anyone who tries to establish that such exists, is a deranged Walter Block sprinkling Tinkerbell foo-foo dust on the rest of us.

Stop circling Uranus and come back to reality and participate in the real world with the rest of us. We need all the brains we can put together to get us out of the mess we're in.

Now the Truth Comes Out

This is just part of the plan to destroy the middle class and globalize the workforce. Harper would like nothing better than to get rid of unions, pensions, safety concerns, public health care, freedom of speech, environmental stewardship and all of the other institutions we have fought so hard for.
These Chinese only need to know 100 words to work here. You can bet that "Where is my shop steward?" will not be one of the phrases they learn. These people come from a culture of not speaking up. Then you have to look at safety. BC Mines inspectors are responsible for worker health and safety. A visit to the BC Ministry of Mines website only listed inspections to 2005. In 2005, there were only 165 mines inspections done in BC and of those, only 6 were in underground coalmines. There are not enough mines inspectors to ensure worker health and safety, let alone the environmental inspections they should be doing. In China there have been 50000 deaths in coal mines since 2001. How safe will it be here for Chinese workers, who as part of their training get copies of the Mines Act in English? How safe will the Canadian miners be?
All of Clark's talk about jobs jobs jobs.She forgot to mention that they aren't for British Columbians.
We in the Comox Valley are fighting the proposed Raven undergound coalmine, and the proponent goes on about all the jobs the mine will create. There will be few locals hired, and we stand to lose 600 sustainable jobs in the shellfish industry as well as the pollution of our drinking water. Shame!

Kredit

Kredit : "I'm obviously not going to change any minds here"

At least we read and respond to the points in your posts, something you don't engage in because you can't defend your ideology.

As others have pointed out you don't seem to understand what a "free market" is. Chinese companies importing Chinese workers into Canada is not anyone' definition of a free market. What it is is an avoidance of the free market for labour in this country. The Chinese don't want to pay the going rate for labour so they are avoiding the marketplace.

You don't think government and forest companies wanted to export raw logs? Then you're out of touch. Of course its because the government and the forest companies wanted it. The same forests are still being cut down. The market for our lumber was just fine until the government changed the legislation forcing companies to mill the lumber in the region where they took it. Once you allow the logs to leave the country to be milled by cheaper labour then you force people here out of work. But again, the people moving the logs out of the country are AVOIDING the free market for labour in this country.

You say Canadian wages have to come down. But you never say why. Never say why saying no to free investment deals would hurt us. Instead your solution to prevent poverty in the future is poverty now? That makes no sense. Do you ever try to think things through?

Closing the borders worked pretty well for us up until free-trade didn't it? It was after that that we got the high debts, one of those annoying little facts you guys on the Right hate.
As for "competitive", who cares? We don't need to compete with China to have a high standard of living. Do you know any history at all? Trying to compete with them on the basis of wages lowers our standard of living.

You never read other posts but I'll ask a simple question anyway, do you think the standard of living in BC will rise if Chinese companies are allowed to import their own workers?

Your side's hairbrained view of economics is why our median wage has fallen. Its why debt has risen and why unemployment is high. Its why people are working several low paid jobs and why few can afford to have only one parent working.

You want a race to the bottom and when you get it you suddenly complain that the people who opposed your policies are the reason for things getting worse. Does that make sense to you?

Well guess what, we told you that 30 years ago.

The solution is for us to look at the past and see what policies worked best for us and follow those. But rather than follow "best practices" our governments keep choosing ideology and then retire and take up board positions with the same companies who benefitted from the changing of the system.

Kredit, wrong questions and data

It would only get funnier if it wasn't so seriously considered by the powers that be.

"Should it be acceptable to use government force to compel private companies to hire more expensive labour?"

Kredit, please, today's real question is

"Should it be acceptable to use government force to compel workers to accept lower wages and working conditions than they might have otherwise obtained, over the negotiating table?

Air Canada was probably the most media reported, but certainly not the only such scenario. The latter is occuring far more frequently than the first, probably 10 to 1.

"Everyone participating in this discussion is stuck in class warfare mode"

No, I'm in "increased equity mode", I don't give a damn about class, be it a dumpster diver or the Archduke of Windsor.

I don't give a damn about race, gender, class, religion, nationality or any other barrier to quality realations.

Inequalities will always exist, not necessarily due to talents or other genetic advantages. Might be nice to level the start line a bit.

But there simply is no reason for someone to own and keep multiple, mostly empty, energy sucking buildings, when someone is sleeping in a cardboard box outside, while young families can't afford a long term home purchase in the area, and so they add to the urban sprawl disaster, with few alternatives.

"sees nothing wrong with protectionism and is afraid of free competition in labour."

The Canadian and even the US government once used "protectionism" to get their economic sectors, especially the manufacturing sectors, up and successfully running.

Even today, most advanced and other nations, including the USA, protect a varying number and types of their resources, especially from economic takeovers. Canada is sadsack in this field and getting worse with the latest trade deal.

Kredit, your logic would push us into the former Burma/Myanmar situation, even as Walmart Canada paid less than the standard Chinese wage for goods.

Take off the horse blinkers.

Raw log exports

Very interesting conversations. About the idea that the government chose or chooses to allow raw log exports, as I recall that didn't happen.

During the periodic renegotiation of the standard permits for logging companies during the 70s, and after the terms had been negotiated and agreed, the clause that assured that timber cut from each tree farm license must be milled at the sawmills attached to them was just lost between the negotiation and the printing.

Nobody noticed the deletion when the contracts were signed, it was just assumed that the contracts were, as expected, complete as they were intended to be. Only that one provision was missing from the signing version, and no gap was noticed in the printing.

As I recall, the NDP government of the day was furious. There was a great deal of hair tearing and rending of garments. It was a catastrophe for BC, and whole towns disappeared because of it. Thousands and thousands of jobs lost. Anybody drive through Youbou lately?

There were three theories put forward. Espionage by foreign companies who wanted to export the logs, Bribery of somebody at the lowest levels, a printer or clerk handling the documents, and an honest error in the preparations of the documents.

Whatever, the government was humiliated and wanted to redo the contracts properly as negotiated. The companies declined, rather smugly I thought, saying they signed what they were given in good faith, too bad. No court was likely to overturn, the newspapers were quite mean about it, so it was just dropped to control the damage. BCs logging culture was destroyed.

Not competitive advantage, not free markets, not polysci 101, not philosophy. just a filthy trick to steal the livelihoods of Canadian workers and their families.

On balance of probabilities, I would say most likely a crime under the laws and regulations of the sovereign state of Canada, if it could be proven.