saftey is the only reason?

Ferries safety is already at considerable risk; after all did we not have a ferry recently driven into Gill Island at cruising speed? How did being members of the union assist with the lack of safety regarding this event?

Moreover some would be of the opinion it is the union that has continually blocked and prevented a full and complete investigation of ALL FACTS surrounding this tragic event. Who has been held criminally responsible for the two deaths on that boat?

How about during the Glen Clark era when that construction worker from Alberta (TNL Construction) got his jaw broken by a ferry worker live on TV. Who was held criminally responsible for that one?

Oh but we are all supposed to believe this is about safety only….. are we sure it is not something to hide behind if someone screws up?

union busting

Hahn's job right from the start was to quash the union.
His divide and conquer style is classic Bilderberg bullshit.
BC Ferries must be returned to the people of BC and Hahn can take his Bilderberg built ferries and sail away to Germany, or Abu Dhabi, or anywhere but here.

Union Busting

I agree with ron, this is union busting and it's been going on since Bill Bennett. We've seen union contracts torn up, legislation tilted in the favour of corporations, contracts awarded to non-union corporations who were the only ones allowed to bid on them and lots of other union busting tactics used over the years to the benefit of corporations bottom line. We know what the bottom line gets us, more unemployment.

We must get rid of Hahn and the LIbERal government and level the playing field.

private sector

You got to enjoy a comment like guystones, the reality of the private sector marine engineers is that they are mostly unionized and paid more than the ferry engineers. Imagine the gall of whining about safety, the nerve of these unionists!

Thank you!

Hats off to anyone who values safety above a bonus!
Unions do serve a purpose, that, maybe some will not grasp untill the last union is bustes!

Officers Nonsense

The Ships Officers should be excluded from the union representing the non-officers. They are managers. The Canadian Merchant Services Guild is the organization that represents Ships Officers. http://www.cmsg-gmmc.ca/about/index-e.html

Any ships officer who uses an excuse that membership in the BC Ferries union, should be fired as all Ships Officers have a direct responsibility by virtue of their qualification and Maritime Law to take all steps to ensure the safty of passengers/cargo and the Ships Crew. The BC Ferries Officers and senior engineers have obviously been brainwashed by the BCFMW Union!

This

Its a conflict of interest

Its a conflict of interest to put Officers in a situation where their take home pay is directly affected by the decisions they make.

This is similar to the mentality used to develop workplace safety programs that reward workers with money and gifts for not having accidents. The result is workers are pressured by their peers and supervisors to not report accidents so the work group can collect their gift, dinner, money, whatever.

The Corporations motivation for removing the Officers from the Union is ensure the Officers don't have anyone to back them up and their jobs are on the line everytime they make decisions that are contrary to the Corporations wishes.

The decision to remove Officers from the Union can only mean lower safety standards and increased danger for passengers.

Restore Public Control of BC Ferries

The BC Liberals used the Fast Ferries episode--sound in theory but flawed in execution--to pull a series of "fast" ones of their own. Most notably, they sold the ferries for scrap value instead of refurbishing them, they out-sourced ferry construction to German shipyards, at the expense of BC's shipbuilding industry, and they handed over management of our publicly owned ferry service to an unaccountable corporate board.

BC Ferries needs to be reorganized as a crown corporation and its over-paid CEO needs to be shown the door. That requires the defeat of the BC Liberals and the election of an NDP government.

Queen of the North

Where was the safety on the bridge that night?

Ferry officers must stay in union

If I remember correctly - Airline pilots are also in the union. Simply because otherwise the saftey of the passangers would be at risk.

Ferry is no different.

Corporations out of the public's control cannot be trusted. Period. Their bottom line is money.

I 100% support these guys.

And those of you against unions give your head a shake. Without unions the majority of us would be working for minimum wage, no safety on the job and no moral or ethics from the employer. It is shown already across the country. Many joabs have been outsourced to other countries where the corporations can get away with paying next to nothing to these workers.

At least you can't outsource a union job.

Union has its place and many people have fought for better working conditions and such. One reason we have higher standards in many jobs in Canada is beacuse of that.

Want to work in a sweat shop move to a third world country.

RE- BC Ferries

We should be concerned about the de-unionization of the Captains! The "Liberals" did this with the school administrators (principal, vice-principals), years ago, and this resulted in a fractured school community. We went from a "professional-team-effort" to a "we"-them chaos conflict”. With the de-unionization, the school administration became the leading edge "puppets" of the unprofessional and politically correct. So instead of professional decision making based on best practices, we have unprofessional political decisions based on whim - which is not in the best interest of students or education. So when public safety is involved, as in BC Ferries, what is being proposed is a dangerous idea. I hope the BC Ferries union walks out over this, because public lives are at stake.

For greengreen

Without the/a Union, the officers will be told to break one of the thousands of laws which some of the present management ignors. Example would be hours of work. If the ships officers are scheduled more that what is required by law, they will be forced to work it if they are excluded but have a solid legal backing if represented. "I guess the boat won't sail because the poor engineer needs a nap", will be the cry though most wouldn't take a plane if they knew the pilot was working beyond the required hours. Many more examples, greengreen. Too many to list. Engineers tried to have the Guild represent them but the BCFMWU said they couldn't leave. Ready says they are not required to be in the Union now so BCFS inc. wants them as part of their management against the Union. Don't like what you are told to do? Find another job. Trouble is that there is a world wide shortage of qualified marine engineers. Not just at BCFerries.
Remember, Engineers who work in the engine rooms are actually ships officers. They presently work with only the minimum required number. BCF inc. strives to meet the minimum standards.

sdgreen

Lets say your right and they shouldn't be in a Union. Then Doctors shouldn't belong to the BCMA or the CMA. Lawyers shouldn't belong to the bar association, Contractors shouldn't have an association. There shouldn't be any associations at all. there shouldn't be a Chamber of Commerece. Now I'll agree with you. Let them all fail and have no one to fall back on. Let's leave it wide open and a free for all.

Hahn is twiddling his thumbs

This is what passes for corporate management at BC Ferries. David Hahn and his hand-picked corporate board members would rather be disrupting the workforce than building a better ferry system.

Yes, ferry officers are underpaid. That's the primary reason for the last strike. All workers at Ferries are somewhat underpaid, but ship officers are and still continue to be paid less than the private sector.

And the fact raised earlier is correct. There are not enough qualified ships officers. Especially engineers. This is why the banked over time hours are so high.

What Hahn and his executive board of car salesmen, brothers of ferry commissioners, ex ministers in the Campbell government and assosrted fishermen looking to make a buck ought to think about is a bona fide apprenticeship program to train the next generation of ships officers. This motely and self motivated board ought to demand that the CEO start to think about running a ferry company instead of conssession. And maybe get the workers on side.

And it wasn't the BCFMWU that kept the ships officers out of the Canadian Merchant Service Guild. Its was provincial legislation and the courts. Had the officers been allowed to leave they would have already been enjoying better terms and conditions.

This government had better give Vince Ready and the Board of Directors the boot and re-focus its gunslinger Hahn to bring the company back from the edge of the precipice.

Not the Love Boat

Maybe the officers need their own union or some better way to communicate to BC Ferries mgt. It certainly does appear that they would create a conflict of interest by being members of the same union with the other workers. After all, when a boat is underway, the officers are effectively managers.

Yes, it was sad how the union blocked a thorough investigation of the sinking of the Queen of the North. When it comes to safety the union is also guilty of protecting itself rather than passengers. In the case of the Queen of the North, I can only imagine the facts were so heinous and embarassing that even the corporation wanted to sweep it away.

Bobby Peru, without a Clue

The union did not block an investigation. When a ship sinks, it is investigated by police and maritime authorities. The union, even if it was so inclined has no ability to block an investigation, no more than a union can block an investigation of a worker falling to his death in an industrial accident.

Mr. Peru is only motivated in the same way Mr. Hahn was and that was to throw mud up against the bulkhead in order to deflect scrutiny of the real cause.

What was the cause Mr. Peru? Insufficient and unqualified manning. And that's a corporate responsibility sir!

Francis, you're wrong.

The loss of the Queen of the North was the result of negligence of the most contemptible kind by the officers of the watch. You must know this as well as anyone and you must also know that the union disgraced itself in its subsequent behaviour, which is not in any way to exonerate BC Ferries management.

Contrast the loss of the Sea Diamond on April 6th 2007 after hitting an incorrectly charted reef in Greece, also leading to two deaths. On April 7th her captain and five officers were arrested and charged.

Our great BC tradition of cover up and evasion of responsibility continues.

David H

Have you got any facts or is this just your opinion?

Please explain to me the cover up? Please explain to me the manning of the bridge at the time of the collision?

I'm not saying there isn't blame, but I am saying that many and I fear that would include you are jumping to an emotional conclusion that is not based in any understanding, knowledge or evidence?

emotion and fact

Let's start with the simple fact that a ship equipped with the most modern navigational aids was run into an island leading to its loss and the death of two passengers. The fact that we don't have all the facts regarding the manning of the bridge. The fact that after the three officers responsible for the ship's safety were (eventually) dismissed, the union filed grievances on their behalf. The fact that only one of those officers faced charges, and that after four years. The fact that marijuana use was acknowledged to be widespread in a ship whose captain (subsequently reinstated) had evidently allowed a culture of indiscipline to flourish. The fact that the children of the dead were unable to pursue a civil court case because of cost resulting, in part, from the exploitation by that same captain and the corporation of BC's uniquely expensive court system.

Look, the general facts of this case are easily accessible, and it seems to me that any normal person reading them can only conclude that for the most part neither the captain, officers and crew nor the union, corporation, statutory authorities and justice system come out looking good. Yes, this is in part an emotional response but it does not come from nowhere.. People reading your views and mine can inform themselves as they wish and make their own conclusions.

Fact

The two people on the bridge were not qualified. One was a relief mate given the rank of 4th Mate, this is not a rank that allows for unsupervised work. Generally an officer is considered qualified at the rank of Third Officer. This guy was a deckhand and on that night he was assigned to navigate this ship.

The second person was a deckhand. The normal requirement is that this person have a "Bridge Watchkeeping Endorsement. The deckhand did not have this endorsement. Unqualified again.

The vessel had just come out of re-fit. The auto pilot assembly had been modified. The deckhand was not familiar with disengement of the auto pilot.

The "most modern equipment"? Well what about the electronic chart system was old and useless. The charts were not to scale and the equipment had no dimmer switch. The crew would place a cover over it so not to be blinded by it at night.

I'm not attributing the collision to equipment, but you brought it up!

The third person was not on the bridge because it was his regular coffee period.

BC Ferries should have never left the Captain with an unqualified crew. Regardless of the fine points on the bridge that night those people were not qualified.

Please address the cover up I missed your points on this. Please tell me what the TSB did not look into or what thy were not able to determine?

No grievances were laid for the Captain. He was not a member of the union.

Did the union have extraordinary powers over the RCMP, Transport Canada and the Transportation Safety Board.

I think you are viewing this from the wrong perspective.

Ask why Keith Baldrey was flown up to Prince Rupert on the fateful morning instead of Mr. Bolin who was prior to quitting was the person responsible for fleet safety.

You have simply bought into he story that Mr. Hahn spun for you.

Francis

Thank you for your response and I acknowledge you make very strong points. Please don't think I have the least sympathy for the BC Ferries management. Their behaviour seems to me me to have ranged from abysmal to abominable and Hahn should have tendered his resignation at once.

You ask me about 'cover up'. Well, you yourself refer to the priority given by the corporation to PR (and legal) considerations in the immediate aftermath, with false claims being made from the very beginning. In your view also I would assume the deflection of blame from management to workers might also count. I also mentioned the obstruction of the daughters of Gerald Foisy in the court system, to quote their lawyer, "If your loved ones die because of negligent actions onboard a British Columbia Ferry, don't go looking for justice in the province of British Columbia." There is the four year delay in even starting criminal proceedings and it's also my opinion that the workers, supported by their union, were not, to say the least, forthcoming.

Perhaps you disagree with my describing this as our "BC tradition of cover up", but this is the kind of thing I meant.

We're getting closer to agreement

Yes, the company has done its damnedest to cover up, maybe more accurately, deflect blame. No question about it.

On the lawsuit. The lawyer hired by the Fiosy kids and others in a Class Action I believe were not a maritime lawyers. Maritime Law is specialty work. The firm hired on retainer by BCFS is Bernard and Partners. They only do maritime law. They knew that the case would be covered by a limitation of liability contained in the Marine Liability Act. Its clear. Its a clear rule. I don't believe its right, but it is the law and the judgment against the company was up to the maximum of the allowable compensation of the Act. The Foisy's kids and the other litigants should have been told about this limitation of liability by their lawyers. Obviously they were not!

It was well into the case that the family's lawyer reversed course.

All the outrage afterward from Peter Richie and other lawyers masked the issue. They appeared to be unprepared to represent their clients. Either in law or perhaps they assumed more willingness by the company to be "fair". Either way, not a single complainant was satisfied by the judgment. The Class action was awarded and Richie recognizing his lousy attempt for the Foisy kids wasn't going anywhere settled his case out of court.

When these guys were hired and made their intentions publicly known, anyone who has been around the waterfront knew they would be outgunned by Bernard and Partners Gary Wharton.

And that ain't the crews fault. They don't wear that.

In the interests of some transparency I'm in the marine business. I do not work for Ferries or the ferry union. I was a keen observer of the issues before the sinking of this single compartment vessel. I was concerned with safety management at the company.

Respectfully, I am very much annoyed by the simplistic blame that the crew singularly receive in forums such as these. The Captain of the QoN and her crew were let down by the company. It begins and ends there. The matters in the middle will always remain of considerable debate.