Where the Flock....

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

The Drama of it all

Truther Bill Bennet!

Wow these guys are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

The right is dead long live the right.

Carole Taylor is going to come to the rescue as he forshadows.

Is the NDP gonna do anythng but get run over again in a battle of the Caroles?

Ahhh well. The NDP might be better off as the cleaning up this mess and Gordo legacy is going to require a very complicit media.

Only one of their own can manage that. Enter Carole Taylor. [SEXIST COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

lol
:)

The real entertainment...

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Duhhh!

Luke: EDITED FOR INSULTS

Luke

Just found out what a [EDITED. -MODERATOR.] your dear leader is eh?

You should have listened to us, we've been telling you what he was for years.

r'man and Wilf and Elliot and JIm

You really voted for a great guy the last 3 elections eh?

Watch out Frank

That same assertion got edited over at the Hook within the past few hours.

The Silent Majority

I don't hold out much hope that any of the remaining caucus members and certainly not anyone from cabinet will suddenly grow some and speak out. They are afraid. They are all cowards. They need to stay quiet in order to garner favour with the next Premier. Politics is Bullshit, I see it fall out of their mouths daily.
I really doubt that Christy Clarke would speak out, she's got a pretty good gig being the number one talking head for the PAB. She will remain silent throughout all of this..... until later, when she can make a buck by putting it all in a book.
Carole Taylor won't talk.
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News flash!

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I think that Bennett

and the other long-time Liberal MLAs are disgusting. They have known what kind of person Gordo is for nearly 10 years. They have seen the damage and the pain he has caused to British Columbians and have never said one word. Never spoken up. Until now. This has nothing to do with being decent people and everything to do with survival mode.

I said it before and got chastised, but I'm saying it again. In my opinion, Gordo is seriously mentally ill and should be declared incompetent to govern. An emergency election should be called NOW!

pedxing-

Sounds like a PAB to me. If you are a true NDP'er never would you ever vote for a right winger. I have been a NDP'er since 1972. I would never think of voting for a right wing candidate no matter what he says in public. Why you may ask? Because right wingers know who's pulling the strings and they better be marching to their drumbeat. And that's exactly why I will always be a NDP'er.

PAB...

"Sounds like a PAB to me. If you are a true NDP'er never would you ever vote for a right winger. I have been a NDP'er since 1972." Camero409

Sounds like PAB to me too.

Which is one of the potential problems of the "Big Tent Theory", Camero409. Sometimes the enemy gets into the tent too, or those with too easily compromised analyses and understandings... even into provincial councils and to be MLAs etc. But which again, is not to suggest that "Big Tent" movements are not needed. They most assuredly are. It's just that when one has a particular point of view especially, even within movements sometimes, one has to be careful whom they might too quickly embrace... as an individual thing or lesson. :-)

All that glitters is not gold.

My Wee Two Cents

Jerry Munro, with all due respect, I think you are being quite premature with your hope and roses. I think most of your posts are spot on and full of wit and wisdom, but not this time.

However disarrayed the ruling class may (or may not) be at this point in time, they are simply far too powerful and far too well entrenched to let go the reigns of power. As you, incorrectly ;) quote "All that glisters is not gold...", but the race ain't won yet; we've got an awful long way down to go before we hit rock bottom.

And the simple fact of the matter is that a very, very large majority of the so-called people of the land are far more interested in such trivia as iPods and other iCrap, the latest Hollywood "scandal", the bloody royal wedding, etc., ad infinitum, than politics.

sunshine coast girl said:

I think sunshine coast girl has hit the proverbial nail on the head. [UNSUPPORTED ALLEGATION REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

Bill, how come it took you so long to find out....

what we knew ten years ago? Bullying and swearing is the standard management model for a lot of organisations. I been a victim of it myself and so have we all. I will even admit to resorting to cussing and swearing to try to end stupid, dumbass arguments. They only start because others don't see things my way....

Anyway, it is time Gordon was gone and he is the last person to see it. Ditto Carol James, even though she hasn't done anything wrong, exactly.

BC needs winners in office; people who kow how to run a multi-billion dollar business without driving drunk or being a mouthpiece for the unions.

We need to see new faces asking for our votes and a new party. My vote would go to Astrid Braunschmidt from "A" channel. Any news would be OK as long as it comes from her.

We also need a new police force, but that it an issue for another day, if the Tyee has the guts to deal with it.

Is a PAB a shill?

I don't know what a PAB is. I am just someone who thinks independently of any particular political party, and is enormously impressed by anyone who has the courage of their convictions, whether I agree with all their policies or not.

Am I a "true" NDPer? I don't know. I am a civil libertarian in that I think that the BCLU and other civil liberties organizations almost always have the right take on a matter. I believe in government that is as small as possible, but I differ with almost every conservative on what the "as possible" means.

I believe that contracts are not negotiated on a level playing field, which is why unions are necessary to even things up in the power imbalance. I believe people outside a contractual arrangement are affected by those contracts (called externalities in economics) which is why we need government regulation on pollution and financial oversight. I generally find that the NDP aligns itself more with my beliefs than other parties.

Does that make me a "true" NDPer? You tell me. I'll tell you one thing. I maintain my critical thinking skills no matter what partisan politics says, which is more than I can say about some of the comments here.

I think it's time to post

I think it's time to post the list of characteristics of someone who exhibits the classic symptoms of psychopathology - then everyone can judge for themselves who fits the bill.

He doth protest too much.

Campbell and Bennett. Spittle and lick spittle. What a disgusting government this has been.

Don't mistake Barnacle Bill for a hero, it is just too little too late. He is merely another [EDITED. M0DERATOR.] trying to save his neck by saying he was only following orders.

No pensions for these thieves. I want to tear up their contract just like they tore up mine.

Honourable WR Bennett, Ottawa Research Honourable Mulroney

Honourable WR Bennett and MLA Bill Bennett Honourable B. Molroney authorised agricultural research on germination, fuel energy in wheat, and French Charolais Simmentals and "amschel rothschild" and dictionary, girl is what I heard so I went to Ottawa and to Washington State and visited the at the wine store. I had met Honourable G.Campbell, mayor, and, I didn.t know that it was Hourable Trudeaus son, of the Queens daughters "Princess's" agriculural knowledge of breeding fame, and told these knowledgable men what I had heard. I was directed to a bottle of Rothschild, I asked them to please put me and the bottle over the community gossip wireless and I went a few places and then home to N.Vancouver. Esquimalt Navy had had contact from a Canadian Military named Honourable Rothschild so I told everyonr including Honourable Campbell,Bennett,Bennett, and Honourable Montague Bruce, Honourable Grahem bruce and Gary Bruce. Honourable Rothschild was around 100 years old and contacting people and they respectfully answered. I heard Honourable Bennett and I was honourably editted. Thank You for answering Anna Paddon

I vote...

that PaddonDevelopments be edited.

To An Ultimate Victory...

"I can remember 35 years ago when those of us who thought like this could hold a national meeting in a phone booth. It is going to be a long hard struggle, and we may not win, but there is at least this ray of hope." anarcho.

Good to read you again.

lol. I remember as well, these phone booth meetings. The situation is changing however, as the socio-economic crises of the post social democratic state of capitalism deepen. The wingnuts that have brought this new situation down on themselves, and us, are blissfully and delusionally unaware of course, but in a very important way they have brought all of us who have long wanted a transformation of society, a new opportunity out of which to do so. In this backhanded way, they have done us, the forces for deep change, a favour.

You and I, of our advanced years :-), may not be there to see it, though we can hope, but still,today, there are more grounds for confidence in an ultimate win for the people than it appeared there for awhile.

To victory, my friend.

Damn cold here today. The barn cat is staying huddled under her heat lamp, watching her foolish human scurrying in and out, with an ice encrusted beard, doing his chores.

She must be thinking, "Only mad dogs and humans..."

Ruining the Liberal party on purpose

Campbell's actions have damaged the Liberal party to a point that they won't recover in time to win an election. The movers and shakers in the party realize this. The threat of a second right wing party starting up, namely the Conservatives, will split the right vote and allow the NDP to win. The answer to this problem explains Campbell's actions since the voters rejected the HST move. Campbell is doing things to purposely destroy the Liberal party so the Conservatives can take a shot at beating the NDP. After all Campbell is a Conservative, always has been, and his party is a coalition made up of ex Socreds, unelectable Conservatives and some right wing Liberals so he's just clearing a path for the next right wing party to take over. And just like battered women the voters will get sucked into thinking there's a change and will vote for the same old thing thinking it'll be different this time.

It's hard to understand why Harper admires Campbell's government though. It's a coalition and that's the big political boogyman in Harper's world isn't it?

GC and 80,000 health care sector workers: Remember!

Remember how GC ripped up the contracts of some 80,000 health care workers -after repeatedly promising that would not happen. Read this, download this and note that is the power that goes with the executive privilege of the Premier's position - due to the constitution - regardless of who holds that position. There are countless other examples to remember about GC. Power corrupts and absolute power, centralized as it is via our constitution corrupts absolutely. Thus the need for 21 century participative democracy. Here is the url:

http://www.heu.org/News/2010/11/article6952/index.cfm?call2=HOMEPAGE&type=1

Thanks Jerry!

I intend to stick around as long as I can. I really want to be there to see these bastards get their lumps. And they will. We might go down with them, but it will be much tougher for their pampered, narcissistic little souls, than the rest of us, who, if we have nothing else, certainly have endurance...

Count 'em. One....two.

Once upon a time there was one nice man...and one nice woman in The BC Liberal Party.

They were Paul Nettleton and Elayne Brenzinger.

A real man. And a real woman.

Displaying both integrity and courage, they left in the early days, refusing to be bullied by Gordon Campbell and unwilling to participate in the dismantling of our public assets and resources through the garage sale multi-listing that The BC Liberal Wrecking Crew was about to make of the province of BC.

anarcho ~ I intend to stick

anarcho ~ I intend to stick around as long as I can. I really want to be there to see these bastards get their lumps. And they will. We might go down with them, but it will be much tougher for their pampered, narcissistic little souls, than the rest of us, who, if we have nothing else, certainly have endurance.

How does one suspect they can possibly get their lumps if we support keeping them in power and playing politics in the conventional, indoctrinated fashion? At best their lumps come contemporaneously with us taking a thrashing far worse.

How can anyone go on thinking we are going to change anything substantively by begging from below for aid from above? It isn't going to happen. The machine will continue to march along until it collapses or until something other than the 'corporate-owned party machinery of any stripe' takes it over.

Our political moment in time is like no other. The strains on our existence have never collided in such numbers simutaneously. Although fascism has been growing for 200 years in our culture, the last 35-odd years it has been approaching overdrive. We are now in the age of 'velvet fascism', and as the economy melts the disappearing middleclass riches will bring a death to democratic opportunities.

I fail to see how so few 'progressives' can be blind, even intellectually, to the grassroots independent proposal. Our 'free choice' at election time every four years is a bloody invitation for the people to change the paradigm! The opportunity is there for BC to abort this failing mission -- for electing in the Party with a new hat will ease up on the throttle at best.

With the population explosion, nuclear threats mounting and the impending ecological strain building, it appears more of the same is good enough for most. Frank most likely is correct. The people of BC are happy in their slumbering state of self-deception and accepting trance of political impotence.

We can't do much, but at least we could try to keep our own BC yard in order, so to speak. I end with this thought from William Blum's Rogue State. Though not specifically on point, the tenor of the message is significant:

If I were the president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize to all ... Then I would announce, in all sincerity, to every corner of the world, that America's global interventions have come to an end ... I would then reduce the military budget by at least 90% and use the savings to pay reparations to the victims. ... One year's military budget of 330 billion dollars (currently a trillion dollars: samuidave) is equal to more than $18,000 an hour for every hour since Jesus Christ was born. That's what I'd do on my first three days in the White House. On the fourth day, I'd be assassinated.

The right direction, even if imperfect, is quite easy to see if one bothers to look.

The Myth of The Naturally-Harmonious Democratic Capitalist

Despite the promises that claim reinstituting or resurrecting democracy, rejigging the electoral system and changing laws (which, when you consider past human rights gains, is probably the only suggestion that holds much hope) will surely lead to “greater respect to the limits of nature” that will create “a more sustainable and harmonious relationship with nature”, the discussion never presents anything of substance. For those that make this claim, it becomes a matter of faith that an understanding of the limits of nature is implicit in, and a product of, these neodemocratic assumptions.

There are no examples offered that demonstrate the possibility of a capitalist tolerance for environmental limitations to growth (no matter how capitalism or democracy are defined).

For the most part, the impact we humans have on the envrionment will still be ignored.

Human impact on the environment follows a simple formula: Impact = population density x the level of affluence x the level of technology. Change any of these three factors and you produce a corresponding change in impact.

Democracy’s influence on this equation is questionable and likely negligible, with the exception of changing the rate of decay.

For much of the capitalist world democracy is a condition of reciprocity. It made it possible to extend reciprocity to governance In order to secure the gains of labour, those with power and wealth have conceded governance input by allowing labour a voice through political parties and the various media. Paradoxically, this, in turn, has forced the wealthy to consider structural and systemic ways of countering labour’s gains to offset the erosion of class-based privilege by installing controls in personal life.

The rewriting of labour laws, the containment of union power, the loss of middle class high-tech jobs, the growth of minimum wage McJobs, off-shoring and globalization, not only combine to oppress and suppress previous gains, they have constructed new societal norms and expectations.

These institutional constraints on opportunity and behaviour; the cultural ideology that rationalizes these constraints by identifying them with a “lower” class nature; the redefining of “work place” to reshape worker stereotypes; and control through coercion, have destroyed subjectivity.

When life is set in a matrix of unreciprocated authority, subjectivity atrophies.

When we loose the ability to identify and interpret our personal reality we loose the ability to look beyond norms and expectations to precisely how a new “relationship with nature” might evolve.

Democracy, Limits to Growth and Capitalism

You astutely wrote"

"Unless democratization involves rethinking our our basic growth framework and beliefs about wealth, not just the economy’s relationship to global resources and the fact we are approaching “peak everything”, democratization of the economy is simply a shift in perspective; nothing more. The problems are still the same, the only difference is in the distribution of wealth."

Whilst I wrote:

"If we don't renew democracy we can't possibly reconfigure the economics of this Province/country in a manner that establishes strong sustainabilty, economic democracy and genuine wealth, that pays greater respect to the limits of nature and the laws of thermodynamics."

Also true: "Human impact on the environment follows a simple formula: Impact = population density x the level of affluence x the level of technology. Change any of these three factors and you produce a corresponding change in impact."

Limits to growth economics are established by laws of thermodynamics and limits of the stocks of 'natural capital', and limits to resilency and replenishment rates of natural capital stocks, ecological services and flows. Capitalism and its reproduction fails to recognize those limits and, the capitalist state and its governing elites, both beneficiaries of capitalism, fail miserably to effectively regulate capitalism's reproduction and its predation upon nature, or to offer an alternate paradigm. Further I recommend you read the article "Capitalism and the Curse of Energy Efficiency" in Monthly Review (Nov 2010 issue) to see the implications of the Jevons Paradox. 'Nuff said, way off topic, but we are already way into 'overshoot' -beyond earth's limited capacity to sustain current levels of human population, technology, affluence and growth economy.

KWDs Failure to Understand Social Linkages I...

First, I'm a busy fellow right now, adjusting to the realities of a cold snap winter. Though hopefully, I can be back before nightfall... which is coming so depressingly early.

That said, much agree with Peter's response directly above to KWD, whilst a good and progressive chap :-), simply refuses to understand the linkage between further evolving democracy to include the economy, and bringing the working class on-board to first understanding then accepting responsibility for economic impacts, population and market growths etc. (As is, because of their relative, at least perceived perceptions of their "economic/class place", there is a strong "experience" they receive, that leads them to equate their own wellbeing with that of the capitalist markets need for endless growth."

Indeed, everything is done by the ruling class exercise of its own interests, including creating economic collapse of capitalist growth markets, as drives the working class in the direction of poverty. Hence, if in a negative way, the reinforcements in their real, not theoretical lives, leads them to conclude with the ruling class, that endless growth is good, because my circumstances improve... no matter what you intelligentsia say about "long term" issues. Life is lived today, not in the future.

Which clearly, we, the further looking know, assuming, that this is, in fact, not going to continue to work. (Actually, even most of the working class I know personally, outside of myself, really does understand that "something" is fundamentally wrong, and that this cannot continue forever. They just don't know what they can really do about it, or are fearful of where that leads, and so day to day "practical" issues overwhelm them and continue to lead them on... as the line of least resistance. (Even, I know, in KWD's case, no less than my own. For KWD, in the final analysis, is working class no less than I am.)

Whereas, on the other hand, drawing the working class masses into the real decision making and power processes of society AND the economy, and transforming society in this way, cannot but in the course of which also work on and transform them... over time. For nothing this momentous occurs overnight. They have to become aware of, and be forced to deal with the pressures, which we know, will come from more than just their wallets... but from their new interface with nature and the resource realities out there. And this in a way, because it is the domain of ruling "others" out there currently, they are able to and do avoid.

next post continues

KWDs Failure to Understand Social Linkages 2...

From previous post...

There is a need to create a world, in my view and understanding of people, including my own class, that first gives them real equality and democratic power, but also forces them to deal with the real world issues of resources and population etc., such as they are now excluded from and seems outside their control anyway. (Though again, I emphasize, which KWD also tends to ignore, the reality is... that the Canadian working class population is in decline. It is not growing, and has not for awhile. They are in fact doing their part, out of their own perceived interests. KWD really does need to factor this into his own equations, re his society and class understanding. What population growth is, results from the "immigration" policies of the ruling class... indeed, which most of the "native" working class (of all races) does not approve of... especially in these times.)

So, in my view, KWD needs to go back to his drawing board and connect the dots a little more accurately. The status quo IS NOT addressing the issues of his concern either, except by impoverishing and starving people... which he is on the edge of thinking is a good thing. In the end though, capitalism and its own ruling class is but merely attempting to "reset" the stage for a new round of "endless growth"

Democracy applied to the economy as well as better applied to, as Peter and I have attempted to outline, the other socio-political institutions of society, in my view and that of a growing number of thinking persons, is the best hope we have (not perfect) of leading human societies out of the morass rising out of the mists ahead of us.

There are three choices:

(a) What is, which gets you what we've got.

(b) The starve 'em, gas 'em, burn 'em in the ovens of another Auschwitz time, and bulldoze them into pits. It is the current fascist drive of capitalism back to the past, what they perceive was a more ideal time for them, of the Land Enclosure Acts and the Industrial Revolution.

(c) Changing course and transforming society through a social and economic order model of increased engagement and real equality of all citizens, collective responsibility and capacity of all individuals to make day to day decisions, rather than just elites... Decisions about the socially desirable directions of development (which includes "the land/nature" and communities), which comes to include the economy, the last frontier for democracy.

I choose the latter. At least until somebody reveals its fatal flaw to me, and presents me with a better hope model. And I am always ready to change direction, on the evidence of a better idea or model.

yeah , but

The fatal flaw is that you are dreaming in technicolor!
Short of a revolution the elites are not going to allow changes, and they have the tools to suppress any movement that aims that way.
Democracy was a good idea at a time when it still was possible to keep the rich from interfering in everything and distort the media.
So, if you envision change, start the revolution!

Excellent points Jerry

"....drawing the working class masses into the real decision making and power processes of society AND the economy, and transforming society in this way, cannot but in the course of which also work on and transform them... over time."

Indeed, a vital outcome of participative democracy and democratization of the economy - is that we, ordinary working class folks must confront our personal and collective oppression from the current system run as it is by elites, and in the dialectical process of struggling with ourselves and each other and our oppressors, not only we transform and actualize our latent abilities to be creative activist subjects (not objects of the system or elites) but we will thereby transform the structures and economics of society. By not taking this up, as Jerry astutely says: (1) we get what we got, (2) or worse we get " The starve 'em, gas 'em, burn 'em in the ovens of another Auschwitz time, and bulldoze them into pits. It is the current fascist drive of capitalism"

I am on board for (3), nothing idealist about that, it is the only sane, non-barbaric choice we have: as Jerry says so well: Changing course and transforming society through a social and economic order model of increased engagement and real equality of all citizens, collective responsibility and capacity of all individuals to make day to day decisions, rather than just elites... Decisions about the socially desirable directions of development (which includes "the land/nature" and communities), which comes to include the economy, the last frontier for democracy."

Alive..

"Short of a revolution the elites are not going to allow changes, and they have the tools to suppress any movement that aims that way." alive

Well, first, you have never heard me deny the reality of the necessity of a social revolution. (In the simple context of a revolution being the "transformation" of a thing, in this case "society", not a piece of technology... it's being taken to a new qualitative stage of development)

That said, we don't yet know what it will take entirely, for 100% certain. No one is trying currently.

It MAY actually be possible with a critical mass of "creative" citizen engagement, to achieve this transformation/revolution "quite" non-violently, in fact. We don't know yet. While there is a not a promising history, each new historical period is just that... new, and untested.

Finally, if slavery and feudalism could finally be overwhelmed, capitalism can potentially be no less. It is only impossible if that is the premise you start from... one assumes defeat. Which I do not.

It is even "possible" that this current economic and social collapse period of capitalism will be sufficiently complete, with such a devestating loss of ruling class self-confidence and self-esteem, or that it has become so ineffectively corrupted, and the collapse ultimately so complete, that they will simply be either unable to respond, weakly, or no one will follow them anymore.

We shall have to see how the period shakes out. That is the fact, not your assumption of failure from the get go. :-)

One never really knows a thing, especially such a complex thing, like sex, without trying it. :-)

alive or ALIVE!!

Defeatism before we start - is a mindset that comes from internalized oppression, from this highly individualistic - do it alone social culture-a mindset fosited upon masses of people by the elites who want to keep it exactly so.

I thank you Alive for sharing your feeling though, it is genuine, needs to be recognized and acknowledged and shared - real it is amongst many. But in sharing, discussing, and acting to change we can transform such despairing defeatism into creative action, into a solidarity of people who together realize they can and will act - rather than be acted upon.

Indeed I got a good laugh "One never really knows a thing, especially such a complex thing, like sex, without trying it. :-)" - so true! give me a buzz:

Vandana Shiva: Population control via ecological justice

Shiva: The people who see the population explosion in the Malthusian way — as a geometric progression — forget that population growth is not a biological issue. People are not increasing in numbers out of stupidity and ignorance. Population growth is an ecological phenomenon linked very intimately to other issues, such as the usurpation of the resources which allow people to live.

In England, the population explosion can be linked very clearly with the enclosure of the commons that uprooted the peasants from their land. In India, it was the same thing: the population increased at the end of the 18th century when the British took over and Indian lands were colonized. Instead of the land feeding Indian people it started to feed the British empire. So we had destitution. Destitute people who don't have their own land to feed themselves can only feed themselves by having larger numbers, therefore they multiply. It's the rational response of a dispossessed people.

The population explosion is an ecological phenomenon of displacement. Unless we solve that ecological problem of displacing people - to build huge dams, to build motorways, to take away what people need in order to survive — we will keep pumping more and more money into population programs. We will have more and more coercive and violent methods through which women's bodies are treated as experimental grounds for new contraceptives. Yet we will not have a solution to the problem of numbers.

London: How do we address the problem?

Shiva: The problem of numbers can only be dealt with by recognizing that people have a fundamental right to economic security. If you provide them with economic and environmental security, the population will stabilize itself. The example of Kerala shows this very clearly. Kerala is a state in south India in which the trends are the absolute opposite from the rest of the third world and from the rest of India. There are two or three reasons. There is tremendous equality between genders in Kerala. Also, there has been a very strong land reform program in the state so that even the poorest of people own the plot of land on which their hut is built. For example, landless laborers might not own the land on which they do their agricultural work, but they own the land on which they have their hut. That resource-guarantee has tremendous implications for the security of the people.

When I was in the capital of Kerala state, I remember some rich people telling me, "You can't get the maids to come every day out here. They have a house and don't need to work every day because if they stay home they won't starve."

That is where the population control issue needs to be addressed. Population control is not an issue involving contraceptives for third world women. It is an issue of ecological justice."

words, words, language...

KWD, and Peter Dimitrov and Jerry Munro, I don't disagree with you in the main, although perhaps I can add something to this discussion, which is, indeed, about our words and the richness of our language. 'Wealth', maybe, I will tackle first...there is a substantial difference between 'wealth' and 'money'. Wealth, abundance, the overflowing cornucopia: these are all symbols that resonate with people, but let us be clear - when you ask people what they value most in life they will say family, friends, community or some variation on those words. Study after study shows that the money is not the primary object for working; it is not the primary consideration for a particular job. So wealth and money are not the same thing, and people instinctively understand this. Secondly, 'growth' is essential to the human condition, so perhaps we might find better words than 'no-growth economy' to talk about the state of homeostasis we are aiming for. But third, why talk about the economy, or capitalism, at all? Even if we assume that people will opt for the status quo, given an actual choice, that does not preclude that people might not yearn for a more human and humane way of living. In this particular society, we have become accustomed to governments framing all of our decisions around the question of cost, whilst failing to explore the opportunity costs, the environmental costs, the ultimately human costs that are born by each and every one of us for not doing what we ought to do. Let us maybe talk about just doing the right thing, no matter the cost...because it is the right thing to do.
And finally, lets explode the goddamn myth that some 'leader', some charismatic or persuasive, or stunningly good looking, or articulate person is going to come along and save us - only we shall save ourselves and if there are no opportunities to act collectively (hard to believe) then as individuals - because it is the right thing to do. Yes, the cult of 'the leader' has led us to the point where a member of government describes his leader as 'not a nice man', but 'a good premier'. What bullshit.

bob the cat, I wish you would make your inimitable contributions more often, for you make me laugh. And alive, perhaps you are right: my revolution has already begun. You can join anytime.

"And finally, lets explode the goddamn myth... " @VivianLea

Exceedingly well put Vivianlea.

And exactly why I have a problem with the group of 'sometime' progressives here at Tyee & elsewhere who seem to be pining for a REAL leader to replace Carole James; the same folks who, from time to time, excoriate the 'maximum leader' aspects of Campbell's dictatorship.

Despite her shortcomings, and she has a few all right - not least of which a reluctance to actually 'engage' rather than simply go through the motions - Carole James has had to make do with less (read almost no) money than either her opponent OR any previous NDP leader for the past 50 years.

For anyone who thought she hasn't done an admiral job against hellish odds I suggest he or she read again the letter of support for Ms James from former MLAs and take careful note of the fact that JOY McPHAIL added her name and signature to that letter.

I think Carole James and her supporters do their cause no credit when they resort to foolishness like yellow scarves - this is a modern social democratic party and not a cult of personality - but, that being said and given the deeply ingrained racism and sexism of British Columbia, the current leader of the NDP is torso, shoulders and head above the pusillanimous narcissist who has led the right wing forces for the last 15 years.

She will likely make a very good premier - whether or not the people of this province have sufficient character to recognize this potential is the main question now.

Population and Personal Revolutions... and other stuff...

Actually, vivianleadoubt, I don't disagree with you at all. Good points all, as a contribution to this discussion. Indeed, I'm surprised that you think that I would. First, I am certainly not a rich man in terms of "material wealth", it never really being one of my ambitions frankly. My family and community is my wealth. Always been that way with me.

In fact, though I am sure there are exceptions, it is that way with all the working class folks known to me. None of them is "wealthy" either, or with any great expectations of it... even though we might buy one in twenty million chance lottery tickets, in the hope of spreading it, and the security it represents in this society, around amongst our extended family AND community. And nearly all have two children or less nowadays.

"...population growth is not a biological issue. People are not increasing in numbers out of stupidity and ignorance. Population growth is an ecological phenomenon linked very intimately to other issues..." quoting from Lynn's contribution. Where Shiva elsewhere says it is poverty and dispossession that is its main driver. With which I also entirely agree.

And Lynn... an invaluable contribution to this discussion.

Though, personally, I do think the notion of an "individual revolution", while certainly of no small personal and immediate environs value, of which I have gone through a few over my lifetime as well :-), I don't doubt though, in my experience of it, is just that... of very limited reach. Though I certainly do wish you well with it. (You don't need to hear my "personal revolution" horror stories. :-) lol

As for who leads the NDP GWest, I care not really a fig. That is their concern entirely. But when one side and the other is here in the NDP "quarrel", in a public forum, you had better expect some "public" input... like it or not. The NDP is already by now, largely irrelevant to me.

A good evening boys and girls. I'm otta here for the evening. (And I've got to make supper first; curry filet of sole and ohhhh, I think a nice rice pilaf.)

Love.

The seductive inner circle

" the ultimately human costs that are born by each and every one of us for not doing what we ought to do. Let us maybe talk about just doing the right thing, no matter the cost...because it is the right thing to do."

Well said, VivianLea.

( And I second your plea to bob the cat ;-))

Your insight above is where, I feel at least, the real necessary personal epiphanies must begin. It is why I posted Nettleton's and Brenzinger's names above. They did a rare thing - they did the right thing when hardly another soul was willing to do so...and when there was great pressure being exerted on them to 'behave' and remain silent. Theirs were actions of conscience, ones bravely beyond mere politics - and that is not an easy thing to do.

And I applaud those in the NDP now standing up to Carole James and the yellow-scarved inner sanctum for the very same reason.

Ross K wrote an outstanding comment on his blog the other day that I hope he won't mind me posting here.

He wrote:

".... but this I do know from my own non-political (at least in the big 'p' sense of the word) experiences.....

You've often gotta fight like heck (mostly with yourself) to make sure you are still doing the right thing once you cross that line that marks the inner circle of any organization."

For me, it hits the nail on the head as to where accountability lies and where real change comes from - from that inner struggle, one that is always marked by personal courage. The personal actions that follow dwarf the merely political or economic take, in both their honesty and substance and thus in their ability to effect real change.

IF there is to be a new world we will have to move beyond the merely political and economic realms. We will have to redefine what it means to be a human being on this planet.

Jerry Munro

Despite the horror stories, ;-) your personal revolutions must have contributed to the wit and wisdom...may I dare say 'soul' many of us have enjoyed reading here in your posts.

Wealth vs. Genuine Wealth & Genuine Progress v. Growth

VivianLeaDoubt you have hit the 'nail on the head'. Indeed financial capital, money is not wealth. IMO, we must go beyond that, to consider what constitutes genuine wealth, that is, there are indicators which we can point to, including the health of the environment _both stocks, ecological services and flows, the degree of inequality or equity in a society, poverty rates, rates of incarceration, trust and co-operation between neighbours, social and political space for creativity and difference, lack of the negative freedoms (racism, sexism, homophobia etc.) presence of positive freedoms- access to good quality health care, free education, minimal economic and political monopolies, etc etc. - anyways a discussion just on that topic of wealth vs. genuine wealth is reserved for another day.

As for growth - IMO, the Capitalistic mode of economic production needs perpetual growth and commodification of nature and labor to accumulate ever more capital to reinvest, to reproduce itself. It further is a giant 'externalizing' machine - i.e.GH Gases and climate change, plus species extinction and biodiversity loss etc. Genuine Progress Indexes are 'societal goals' selected democratically to elucidate futures different tha futures characterized by mere growth/GDP: examples abound: Atlantic GPI, Oregon Genuine Progress Index, etc,

As for "Leaders"---

As for you take on Leaders I am 100% onside with that, namely, " lets explode the goddamn myth that some 'leader', some charismatic or persuasive, or stunningly good looking, or articulate person is going to come along and save us - only we shall save ourselves ..."

As far as I am concerned the party system and the Cabinet/Premier/Prime Minister forms of governance are entering end-times. I see no need for a Cabinet or a Premier, rather if we elect Independents, then Committees of the Legislature can be established, ie. Health Care, Education, Environment, etc. and members would have access to researchers, public input and legislative drafters to assist them to translate policy into legislation...that legislation now comes from the Premier's office for "democratic" rubber-stamping by a band of whipped MLA backbenchers - democracy not! A caveat, emergency powers of a limited scope and for a prescribed period can be lawfully vested in a person or persons, rather than unlimited powers vested in a Minister or a Premier forever.

IMO, the current party and Legislative governance system is dysfunctionally authoritarian to the core and it disempowers not only those elected as MLAs who are not in the inner sanctum of power, but most clearly it disempowers citizens. Thus I cannot support any party, especially a parties with a weak membership base that are divorced from genuine social movements as ar the case now ---parties who all seek to use the same institutional reins of authoritarian power thusfar used by GC as Premier.

I am informed that CJ favours Multi-Member Pro Rep which means party lists which will only entrench power in the Parties; as for the HST, ask CJ and her supporters their intentions, and you may be surprised to find that they indeed to keep it around for at least "X" years or more, ask CJ just exactly what legislation she intends to undo from GC's neo-liberal legacy? etc. G'west, my focus is elsewhere now, primarily with others trying to creatively articulate positive alternatives to the business as usual (BAU)scene.

y'all are kind to me...

G West, it is the ultimate in intellectual laziness, in my view, that humans search for the next great leader...and look where that has brought us. I believe we ought to support Carole James, if for no other reason than at present she and her party are the only official resistence to the rape and pillage of the province and her people. I am with Jerry Munro in the sense that who the leader is a matter of indifference to me: save let's have an end to childish palace coups whilst the homeless freeze, and the jobless search for jobs, and minimum wage earners despair as they line up at foodbanks.

What we do individually between now and the next election may be of more importance than anything else. I shall tell this litle story: I once drove along a desolate Alberta Highway and grew more despairing at every mile with the literal heaps of garbage along the road side. At one point, I threw a bottle out of the truck window in my sheer, frustrated rage...and then drove back to retrieve it.I suppose this is a trivial point - but the weariness of being jobless and homeless for over a year is so bone deep I dare not articulate more poignant personal stories. In any event, it will have to suffice to make the point that what we each do matters, and is the starting point for the 'revolution', no matter how naive or trivial you might be persuaded to think that is.

I fear I cannot last until the next great leader/saviour comes along; I and all the minimum wage and low-income earners, the food bank users, the welfare sufferers and their children, my goddess, their children, and the homeless and the addicted and mentally ill and the disabled and seniors and those ill or in pain...hurry up friends! For the list is getting longer, and you may be next.

As always, a pleasure to read your passionate and poetic voices. If I sound a tad hectoring, well, I expect you will forgive me.

AN HONESTLY & FULLY informed public is what is needed

Jerry Munro ~ KWD simply refuses to understand the linkage between further evolving democracy to include the economy, and bringing the working class on-board to first understanding then accepting responsibility for economic impacts, population and market growths etc

KWD ~ Democracy’s influence on this equation is questionable and likely negligible, with the exception of changing the rate of decay.

Jerry Munro ~ Democracy applied to the economy as well as better applied to, as Peter and I have attempted to outline, the other socio-political institutions of society, in my view and that of a growing number of thinking persons, is the best hope we have (not perfect) of leading human societies out of the morass rising out of the mists ahead of us. ... Changing course and transforming society through a social and economic order model of increased engagement and real equality of all citizens, collective responsibility and capacity of all individuals to make day to day decisions, rather than just elites.

lynn ~ re: population

----

The problem everyone is looking at but not stating is our dire need for an informed population to make the right decisions. Must I remind all, again, we are offered a people's democracy every four years but 'elect' to not take it up.

We do so only because we are intentionally misinformed and/or uninformed about our role in politics and the political-power machinery. Every decision we all make is grounded on our personal interpretation of the world around us. This is why we keep electing one group or another of the elite to represent us, rather than to represent ourselves.

People make the difference. Elect ethical, independent people and not the Party, an organization owned by the elite and headed by the right Leader. That is the obvious first step forward.

From a discussion G West & I had on the topic (re: above post)

And both Lippmann and Dewey have numerous insights worth considering.

...people do not know the world directly, but only as a “picture in their heads”; consequently, they responded to a “pseudo-environment” in their political judgments. To know the world, people need maps of the world, but Lippmann asks: how can people be sure that the maps on which they rely have not been drawn by special interests? Most maps are of that kind. How can there be democratic government that does not fall into irrationality as a result of power struggles between self-interested factions?" ~ Walter Lippmann

...the importance of the effective release of intelligence in connection with personal experience in the democratic way of living. I have done so purposely because democracy is so often and so naturally associated in our minds with freedom of action, forgetting the importance of freed intelligence which is necessary to direct and to warrant freedom of action. ~ John Dewey

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/11/16/CanJamesWin/index.html?commentsfilter=0

A Chomsky Lecture LINK on point

LINK

roughly 33 to 37 minute mark

about power in politics.

VivianLea Doubt

you say, “… 'growth' is essential to the human condition, so perhaps we might find better words than 'no-growth economy' to talk about the state of homeostasis we are aiming for.”

I'm curious, outside of economic theory, where is it written that growth is essential to the human condition? From an examination of past cultures we know that’s not the case: Growth is not essential to the human condition.

Ronald Wright, “Stolen Continents”, claims there were about 100 million Native Americans living in the New World the day Columbus arrived (one fifth of the world pop at that time). And, unless they made some great strides in advancing technology, they would have probably maintained that level for some time.

The arrival of guns, germs and steel (Jared Diamond) changed the impact formula,dramatically.

Within a couple of hundred years the European hordes have reduced the once-prolific N.American biosphere to a mere shadow through deforestation, overfishing, non-renewable resource depletion, water and air pollution, and so on.

This is not to say that life was better in 1492, given the current level of psycho-social evolution, and the fact we no longer tolerate things like slavery and human sacrifice. But life was brutally harsh everywhere.

However, getting back to no-growth economies, here are a few excerpts from “Prosperity with out growth?” by Tim Jackson that I'm guessing you may have already read.

“All the more strange then, that virtually no attempt has been made to develop an economic model that doesn’t rely on long-term growth. Herman Daly’s pioneering work at least defined the ecological conditions of a steady state economy. For Daly, these can be expressed in terms of a constant stock of physical capital, capable of being maintained by a low rate of material throughput that lies within the regenerative and assimilative capacities of the ecosystem.

What we still miss from this is the ability to establish economic stability under these conditions. We have no model for how common macro-economic ‘aggregates’ (production, consumption, investment, trade, capital stock, public spending, labour, money supply and so on) behave when capital doesn’t accumulate. Nor do our models properly account for the dependency of macro-economic aggregates on ecological variables such as resource use, reserves, emissions and ecological integrity.”

But we do have a model, it just needs to be adusted to fit our current desire for homeostasis and "doing the right thing".

Cult of The Personality...

Well, I certainly agree with KWD immediately above, and differ with vivianleadoubt re the absolute imperative of perpetual growth... assuming we are talking in the specific terms of economics and population. To which arguments KWD presents, I don't feel a need to add anything.

This has been a long and, I think, extremely useful discussion. At least I know it has been useful for me. It has certainly opened up the can of worms that needed to be, in my view.

And Peter... absolutely outstanding. You and I share a wavelength, brother. Hopefully, over time, not too much time, there will be developments occur such as will allow us, and others here, the opportunity to work more closely together.

"IF there is to be a new world we will have to move beyond the merely political and economic realms. We will have to redefine what it means to be a human being on this planet." Lynn

I am by natural inclination, more tended to focus on the political and economic realms of human activity. I concede that. Outside that, I find more "internal" human matters... How shall I say? ... prickly.

But you are right of course, Lynn."We will have to redefine what it means to be a human being on this planet."

I'm going to be away from here for several days... but shall indeed return.

Meanwhile, I shall leave you NDPers :-) in peace, to sort out the issues of the Carole James "cult of the personality". :-) lol

growth?

When I speak of 'growth', I speak of the symbolic aspects of the word perhaps, the metaphorical. Human beings in stasis die, probably literally as well as figuratively...is there not some indication of this in our current society? As to poulation growth, or the endless economic growth that is required for capitalism...this is precisely what I am railing against. I simply put forward the plea that we use language that resonates with people. We all want wealth, but I would posit that few among us define that as Bill Gates amount of money, in fact, what I am saying is that if you take the trouble to ask people what is important to them it is not 'money' first and foremost. Money to pay the bills, yes, money for a little 'security', perhaps...what we are doing here is decrying the 'elite' for setting the agenda and formulating the argument, and then playing into their argument. I say political discussion should be about what values people hold, and how to achieve those. There are around 300 or so homeless in my community right now, and no 'money' for housing (meanwhile, hundreds of apartments sit empty)...is this the will of the people?
Or is it the will of an autocrat who defines the political world according to his warped, and sometimes drunken, and most likely too-well-fed perceptions? As long as we allow the autocrat (whoever that is) to define the parameters of the good life, we are in deep trouble.

Housing - the lack thereof

As of late 2008 there were 13,400 on the BC Housing wait list. According to a Sept 2010 CCPA study during the last 5 years the Province created only 280 more new social housing units.

Assuredly, ViveanLDoubt if the 300+ homeless have to wait 10 years before the state would help them - but if out of necessity they were to occupy some of those vacant apartments the state - whether BC Liberal or BC NDP run _ would mobilize the police to arrest them in 5 minutes. No difference between those two elitist parties- we need a serious Left in this Province big time.

oh, the irony...

We do not disagree on the need for a 'new left', Peter Dimitrov.

The question is how this new left is going to arise...Will it arise from a set of the relatively privileged? Will it include the homeless? Shall we see welfare moms running for office in this new left? How long shall those cold and hungry people have to wait for the new left?

“I simply put forward the plea that we use language that resonat

No argument here. In fact your observation about the importance of language ties directly to what I’ve been on about for some time. It underlies the justification for why “ we allow the autocrat (whoever that is) to define the parameters of the good life”.

Understanding the construction of the frame work we use for determining the good life is essential. Until we do we remain in deep trouble.

I was going to premise my last comment with:

When you speak of the richness of language, are you talking of finding ourselves, in other words, in a new language? Or, are you talking of finding ourselves in other words: in a new language?

But decided against it because I tho’t it might sound like ridcule … it’s not

Thanks for your feedback.

please, dear editor...

Much as I can see that this particular thread is drawing to a close, your words made me think deeply, KWD. I am thinking of both ways of finding ourselves...

Some years ago, I stopped a friend on the street with "How are you?" and she responded very simply and eloquently with her pain and fears about her son's cancer treatments. Another time, more recent, a friend responded in a few pointed sentences about her weariness in spending much of her time going to the doctor. Both spoke in few words, words that could be spoken on the public street, and disdained the trivial. Rather than saying much about this, I will just say that I believe 'we' - call us the left, the new left, progressives, greens, inner greens or what you will - should speak in this simple, hearfelt, and direct way about the things we believe in and the things we care for and what dreams may come, to borrow a phrase. That thunderous orations and mesmerizing chants should be left to the charlatans that seek to propagandize.

Peter Dimitrov speaks of "the degree of inequality or equity in a society" which tends to mask the real pain and suffering behind the statement - Peter, please do not take this as a criticism, for my language and writing is inept and incapable of conveying what I wish it to. As long as we speak/write in this distancing way, it is simply words, and it is how we are 'trained' or 'conditioned' to speak/write by the autocrat class, even to the extent of using their deadened words.

The new politic will come about, I think, from both speaking and listening to one another with far more care and attention that at present.

Gordon Campbel,l leader of the Liars,oops I mean Liberal party

The Below Statement sums it up pretty well I think. "

Campbell, who, after a series of death threats in 2002, became the first premier in B.C. to require PERMANENT RCMP protection"

Does the above sound like something a NICE guy needs???

Bill Bennett

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.. Bill Bennett is one of the biggest bullies around... quick to make the most disparaging remarks about anyone who disagrees with him in public (he hates environmentalists for example.. calls them eco-terrorists) ... he's the great outdoors fellow.. yeah .. sure.. he was the first to defend the Liberals when they gutted the Forest Recreation program, BC Parks, etc... what a hypocrite... this is a completely self-serving attack and typical of the guy.

All of the above . . .

. . . are a testament to the anger of many commentors. I have never seen so many incomplete comments due to moderator activity!
Think about it, people, by sticking your collective heads into the sand like ostriches none of the offending activities go away, are rectified or even addressed in a civil way!
It is past HIGH TIME, that we take back our collective freedoms, responsibilities and, YES, OUR RIGHTS!
BILL C-36 is a prime example of what happens, due to media silence. We are NOT being served by any honest journalism any more, therefore it is imperative for everyone to re-assess their positions!

VivianLea Doubt

When you said,

please do not take this as a criticism, for my language and writing is inept and incapable of conveying what I wish it to. As long as we speak/write in this distancing way, it is simply words, and it is how we are 'trained' or 'conditioned' to speak/write by the autocrat class, even to the extent of using their deadened words.

it reminded me of the famous Orwell article on the topic, Politics and the English Language. I suspect you are familiar with it but if not, someone else may be.

oh, the horror of it all...

To those of you lauding Mr. Bennett's actions, I am not surprised at how quickly you forget - or didn't know... and jump to conclusions. To vote for this man? Are you NUTS?

This is why we get the Governments we do around here.

This man has always been quick to yell, to argue, to talk down, and to send flaming e-mails (that have got him punted from cabinet before) to people who have the audacity to disagree with HIM. From attacking anyone who appears to be an environmentalist (Mr. B feels that the outdoors is for killing and quading), or even worse, a union member or leader.

This is a case of the kettle calling the pot black. I hope Mr. Bennett fades from view.

Sadly, his popularity has grown - says something about the riding he represents doesn't it.....