Sunshine coast girl

You mean like the gag law!

BC Liberals "only cheat when they can`t win"

Yeah, kinda like that...

Quarry. May 12 can't come too soon for me!

fuel cost vs human life.

My last comment was deleted, so I'll try to be more diplomatic. The two officers on the bridge when the Queen of the North sank have not yet told us what happened. This is called obstruction of justice since it is possible that negligence was involved. Their silence implies guilt. Innocent people do not need to hide behind a wall of silence.

Who could expect BC Ferries to actually disclose fuel costs when their corporate culture is denial and secrecy? Of course the new ferries use more fuel; they are bigger. It just so happens that ferry traffic is down, and likely to stay down for some time, so it was not a good time to buy bigger boats.

So we are left with two mistakes in a row. In a private business, heads roll when that happens.

On the Bridge

Companies are always trying to control their public image. I don't think the gas guzzling ferries are such a grim example of a cover up.

I'm more interested in what happened that night on the Queen of the North.

I know many of you would love to turn the incident into another political football, mining some excuse to blame the corporation. At sea, different rules apply to the management of a ship, starting from the captain on down. The Captain is responsible for the training of his crew.

While the BC ferry corp is being accused of a cover up, remember that the union is protecting the crew who have been fired for not cooperating with the investigation. One wonders what they are hiding? Where was the rest of crew that night? Smoking a joint somewhere? We all know dope smoking is a big problem in BC ferries. Or were they having sex? I read somewhere the captain and one of the female bridge crew had once been a couple. Why was an untrained crew left at the helm? Those are all captain decisions. It's disgraceful for the union to try spin out of this. Perhaps there's just too much embarassment to go around. That's why it's taken more than a year to decide any negligence so that any lawsuit can move ahead.

Oh yes, the Queen of the North case is certainly headed for dangerous waters.

Dr Evil.....

says....."First rule for night time passenger ship navigation...ya gotta know what yur doin`!"

Scuttlebutt has it they knew perfectly well what they were doing, only at the time it wasn't steering the ship!!

The ship had enough navigational aids that even a child could punch the right buttons to do course corrections.

IMO, noone could possibly predict, or correct for, the kind of circumstances that seem to have occurred, and so placing blame on management is simple scapegoating.

The sad fact is that we humans - all of us - at times act irrationally, and so the only recourse in seeking perfection would be to have five people doing every job.

Bobby

In court the other day, BC Ferries and the union were the respondents, not the plaintiffs.

You need to keep that in mind.

As to the rest of the speculation - it's offensive.

Poseidon Adventure

G West, I realize the recent court decision. But, if you know enough BC Ferries people and surf for the scuttlebutt, what I wrote is what people are sayin'.

Something is terribly wrong in the sinking of the Queen of the North. It was equipped with the latest gadgets. You can't fault management with underinvesting in the bridge and navigational aids. And if the bridge crew don't know how to work it the Captain should have demanded more training or not sailed with that crew. Anyone who knows anything about maritime conduct can tell you nothing makes sense. And this crew has sailed those waters numerous times.

Both the union and BC Ferries are trying to avoid huge embarassment. Come on, they hit an island, not an iceberg. How do you miss an entire island? It can only be the most heinous and hilarious of explanations. The Captain and a qualified female member of the bridge crew were probably smoking weed and having wild sex in the Captain's quarters while they left an unqualified crew member at the helm. They were banging against the bulkhead so loudly that they didn't even feel it when they crashed into an island.

People say all kinds of things

If you've looked around and I accept you have, you'll know that the culture at BC Ferries is rotten, rotten to the core.

If was bad before the pseudo-privatization and it is worse now.

I don't know what happened on the bridge of the Queen of the North but I know enough not to listen to idle speculation - whatever their culpability, the individuals involved have already been ruined - no matter what the final conclusion of this mess is. Certainly compensation should be paid and delaying it through court proceedings serves no one’s best interests.

I don't think the embarrassment is avoidable and I think the location of the ultimate responsibility, in the end, is in Victoria. If you’re going to serve the public and charge for it – that’s the chance you take.

That's where the buck stops for me...I've heard worse things about Gordon Campbell's sex life than what someone claims about the officers of the watch that night - but I wouldn't call those 'facts' and repeat them either.

doesn't add up

"Those are all captain decisions. It's disgraceful for the union to try spin out of this. "

AFAIK, the captain isn't part of the union. So, if those are all the captain's decisions, then the union isn't trying to spin anything. They are representing their members. Sometimes it's an odious task, just as sometimes lawyers have to defend guiity scumbag clients. That's how the legal system works.

fresh Air

Mr. Smelser you are a breath of fresh air.
The posters I always read are those I learn from. The list isn`t that long but Rod Smelser is now among them.
(I`ve been researching "Site C")
Thankyou Mr. Smelser or may I call you Rod?
The name Rod Smelser is strangely familiar...Smeltzer..or..no matter

Back to the F.F. myth...Mrs.evil was paring some vegetables for the evenings repast when she accidently nicked a finger.... I heard her mutter under her breath "FAST FERRIES dammit" Needless to say I was both shocked and amazed and when pressed Mrs. evil said" I don`t know what came over me..it just...came out."

I asked her to relax..to think back...when the new Ferry was being commissioned..and the Gordo News...the Gordo News photo op with the falconator astride the shiny sleek Teutonic ship of the seas. If Graf Spee were a coastal ferry..aye she`d look like this...and there! Just behind Kevins talking head....the fast ferries..all lumpy and leaning.. half covered in cheap tattered tarps...the crows and seagulls picking at their bones..and the cackling head of the falconator..and Global Gordo News just catching the right moment..like Glen Clarkes house raid..impeccable timing..wonderful luck!

Fat Ferries

I just don't understand this at all. The layout of these fat ferries is a straight ripoff of the ferries we already have, a standard design for ferries for many decades, only bloated. Blown up like a balloon for no particular reason that I can see. They don't carry that many more vehicles even when full.

Plus they don't fit, so new docks had to be built where one of the old docks used to be, so the old boats don't fit into the new docks and the new boats don't fit into the old docks, a fact that should become perfectly absurd the next time either needs to be closed for repairs.

Why the hell didn't they just commission 4 or 5 of the boats they have been using all along? These boats have given superb service for half a century, with occasional refits and upgrades. Why would any sane manager want to mess with a record like that?

They could have been built here, one or two at a time to spread the payments out and realize savings, and the multiplier effect would have reduced the cost even further. They would not have needed new useless infrastructure for millions of dollars.

And the whole system would have continued to mesh like it has since the fifties.

Can anybody explain this to me in terms a sane manager might understand?

as if we need more proof

check out global's self love ad.
Is it political they lead it off with pictures of the fast cats?...no, tell me it isn't so!

my explanation

"Can anybody explain this to me in terms a sane manager might understand?"

Our shipyards are unionized and the Liberals didn't want to spend money paying people who wouldn't vote for them (for the most part). Instead they paid people who can't vote for them (German shipbuilders). It is the only rational explanation for taking millions of dollars out of our economy, removing its multiplier effect, and essentially letting people here go without work... for the cause of ideology and the good old appetite for power which motivates these people far more than any desire to do public good.

Our fearless leaders?

What a sad, sad commentary, Stump, and all the more because it's true.

Fat Fare(s)

"Our shipyards are unionized and the Liberals didn't want to spend money paying people who wouldn't vote for them (for the most part). Instead they paid people who can't vote for them (German shipbuilders)."

I think you could throw a little punishment to the pot Stump. To punish, humiliate..demoralize..all valuable tools in the game.
Most Union executive certainly don`t vote fashionista but the rank and file quite often vote against their own interest.

I see Dear Leader is presently prancing about the National Stage..a splendid blue grey sharkskin suit with a snappy blue striped silk tie..and those designer glasses..all offsetting the silver hair..even the Saskatchewan neo-con fellow has the "look" now.

Fish counter

"It just so happens that ferry traffic is down, and likely to stay down for some time, so it was not a good time to buy bigger boats."

Ferry traffic didn't just so happen to go down. Hahn & Co. priced ferry riding right out of most people's reach. Just watch how the numbers will go up from December and January with more reasonable fares and how it drops again come February.

Peak oil, climate crisis and muzzling

alda wrote:

"When energy experts have been warning about escalating fuel costs (and eventual scarcity) for 5, 10, even 35 years (Peak Oil), one wonders what poor quality of information and advice those in charge of the ferry decisions use . . . "

Perhaps the climate crisis and Gordon Campbell's commitment to reduce greenhouse gas pollution 33% by 2020 is also a relevant consideration. 50% more fuel consumption means 50% more greenhouse gas pollution.

Not to mention that Gordon Campbell also reduced the price of driving a car on the ferries 33% over the holidays in order to encourage people to drive more. How much did he reduce transit fares by in order to encourage people to leave their cars at home?

Don't get me started

regular adult fare - $13.00 (avg weight 180 lbs or so)

regular vehicle (can include trailer) - $43.00 (avg weight, roughly 2000 lbs)

bicycle (avg weight 30 lbs or less, no storage or rack facilities provided) $2.00

motorcycle $21.50 (avg weight 200lbs?)

Their pricing structure means non-car users are proportionately paying far more than car users. Hardly encourages leaving the car at home by any stretch.

edoherty - excellent point!

And one that it is too darn bad GC can't be forced to rationalise.

Holding your tongue not equal to a culture of secrecy

What I'd like to pick up on in all of this is that I didn't read anything in this article that indicated to me a scandalous or inappropriate message.

"We need to impress upon our staff and our customers that the decision to reduce sailings makes good economic sense at this time," she wrote. Managers should explain the business rationale to the staff, she said and "ensure staff are well informed and are not making off the cuff remarks."

So staff should be "...well informed and not making off the cuff remarks" - sounds just completely unreasonable doesn't it? Who could possibly work in an environment like that?

Look, there's no denying the disappointment in the fuel efficiency of these vessels, and other problems they've had since being commissioned, but I don't believe that there's anything to be ashamed of in a manager asking other managers to convey to employees not to shine a bright light on these already publicized problems when they have conversations with the public. This doesn't equate to a "culture of secrecy", "telling employees to STFU", "information they are trying to suppress", "gag-orders" or any of the other nonsense written in response to this.

Have none of these Tyee readers never taken the perspective that random potshots against the team you work for don't really serve much purpose, and are probably damaging. After all, calling the new ferries gas guzzlers isn't exactly a type of righteous whistle-blowing is it? Especially at this date.

Whenever I come across this type of offhand, cynical comment from an employee of an organization I deal with - on the ferry, at the Air Canada counter, at some government offices, I am a bit disappointed. This really is a sign of a dysfunctional team.

Does BC Ferries management have to answer for this? Undoubtedly. But what sets me off in reading these responses is the sense that comes through that people are somehow entitled to dump on their employer in gratuitous ways while at work and wearing a BC Ferries uniform, and that anything less is stifling their freedoms. Where do all these respondents work? Is it that poisoned and do they feel so little a part of things that this kind of behaviour feels normal? It certainly doesn't to me, and I'm glad I don't work in a place where those around me feel this way.

No objectivity here

I have to agree with gerard that the directive offers pretty slim pickings for an attack upon Hahn et al, and seems designed for nothing more than an opportunity for Dobbins-style rants.

Asking for it!

gerard & ME2:

You are indeed lucky if you do not work in an environemt that has the employees upset to the point where they badmouth the organization.

Obviously you are not employed in what has become a typical workplace, where Mangement operates with little or no regard to the hourly paid wage slaves!

It is indeed unfortunate that most workers have bee trodden upon for so long that they see their employers as the enemy, However put the blame where it belongs: It behooves for the management to set the tone!

It is an old saying that if you keep on kicking your dog, then some day it will bite you!

Rants?

Puhleez - this is not some random commercial enterprise competing with a range of alternate service providers, it is the only game in town, and, it's a corporation wholly owned operated paid for and directed by the people of British Columbia through their elected government.

Citizens have every right to know and appreciate the circumstances under which their assets are being used and their tax dollars are being sent.

Air Canada, on the other hand, is a private corporation and there are lots of other alternatives to using their services.

The ferries, not so much.

BC Ferries is and should be in the business of serving the people safely and well and NOT assisting management inserted into head office to make themselves 'look' better.

What would have made sense has no impact whatsoever upon the Government which is also supposed to have the best interests of the citizens in mind.

The employees should, of course, not be dumping on anyone...but the suggestion that they are not doing their jobs if they acknowledge the reality of this situation is nonsense.

As long as they do their jobs diligently and well their opinions and their views are their own and the suggestion that they are dumping on anyone by expressing an opinion about how OUR corporation operates is an imposition both on their free speech and our right to know what happened as a result of the government's decisions.

Reducing sailings....

.....is akin to blocking off sections of highway to reduce wear -- especially (as G West points out) as BC Ferries is the "only game in town" for most of us.

Another perfect irony

What a complaint to make!

The Liberal's management, hired to hide the books of BC Ferries so the Campbells can phony up a nice looking surplus out of thin air every year, has bought some big Fat Ferries that are damaging property, suck fuel like cheerleaders suck cherry cola, don't work very well and don't fit into the facilities.

Oh, yes, and they cost waaaaaay more than the real ones would.

Any of this sound familiar?

Now they don't want knowledgeable and concerned citizens to speak of it.

When it was somebody else's screw-up they were not so sensitive, were they? The Asper's flagships screamed it every day, over and over, front pages all gaudy with it. Every time the Liberals were exposed doing something hideous and improper, out it came again. For years and years.

I point out that when they were new at it, this new head office regime came as close as they could to sinking the whole enterprise by refusing to bargain in good faith with the very employees whose lack of loyalty now seems to surprise and dismay them so.

I think it was only their actual loyalty to their real employers, the families of British Columbia, that motivated them to settle that strike at all, though they came away with no illusion about their employers real opinion of them as professional unionized workers.

So, what's on the front pages this morning?

Too funny

This is getting quite amusing. Where to start.
New docks had to be built to accomodate them? Show me.
Damaging property? I find it strange that a minority of homeowners polled in Nanaimo made this claim but not a soul in Horseshoe Bay which is bowl shaped and one would think if this was as bad as alleged the problem would be intesified.
Oh, but they're rich West Van Liberal voters, right? Yeah, the same ones manning the Eagleridge Bluffs blockade located less than a kilometer away.
Reduced sailings? Again, show me.
Downtrodden employees? Don't even get me started. More like Club Med. The terminal employees in Langdale put in a solid 20 minutes of work every two hours when the boats in dock on a turnaround. Like they say, nice work if you can get it.
Unreliable? Better track record so far than the Spirit's had when introduced. Thats a fact folks.
The poor out of work shipyard workers?
Try looking at a few websites other than the Union ones and you will see how busy they really are. The new Intermediate Class ferry for Powell River was just completed in N Van. Six months late.
The only issue at all here is fuel consumption. My opinion is this is related to the extra Commercial vehicle capacity these have built into them.
Nothing comes for free.
I could go on but whats the point.

Hey Gerard...

I have worked for BC Ferries. I have family and friends that work for BC Ferries. It was a poisonous atmosphere at work when it was a Crown Corporation and it has become many, many times more poisonous since David Hahn took over. The union and the company are constantly at each other's throats and it is mostly because BC Ferries management behaves as though they are doing us a favour by operating and employing workers. They skimp on safety. They skimp on training. They operate on intimidation. If an employee makes a simple mistake, they do what they call a "fact-finding" which is really just a phrase for witchhunt with the intention of firing the worker. No one in their right mind would speak to management without a shop steward present to observe and act as witness. It is not a pleasant atmosphere at work and most people have no idea exactly how unpleasant going to work can be.

I have no doubt that the edict issued by management regarding not calling the new boats "gas guzzlers" was nothing more than a thinly veiled threat to employees. And, from the tone of most of the comments here, a lot of people are aware of this and that's why the response.

"Does BC Ferries management

"Does BC Ferries management have to answer for this? Undoubtably"

umm right gerard..and they are accountable to?

Reduced sailings = reduced wages

Reduced wages ( y`know mortgage payments, feeding and clothing ones family, that sort of thing) due to foolish and vainglorious decisions made from above might jade ones outlook some ya think?

Me2 what would Marx have to say about it all?
Ole Karl.

or:
maybe its all those fumes on the cardeck making them cranky.

Oh, and Happy?

I don't know where you get your info but Langdale terminal employees certainly don't work just 20 minutes out of every two hours. They work just as much as you do on a shift. Oh, and FYI? I guarantee you that working for BC Ferries is NOTHING like Club Med.

Where were you during all the months that they were working on the docks in HB? Out of town?

Have the residents of HB been asked? I don't recall hearing that. I have been at one of the houses overlooking Departure Bay and heard and felt the accusation. Have you?

From the article above: "B.C. Ferries president and CEO David Hahn and vice-president and COO Mike Corrigan had recently issued memos saying sailings were going to be cut, she wrote, and the reasons would be given through the media, Internet and company brochures." Good enough for ya?

I don't know how you can tell that the Coastal ships are more reliable because they're tied up most of the time. Don't they have to be in service to tell that?

Where do you live Happy? Obviously not in a coastal community. I hate when people spout off on things they know nothing about.

Not to belabour the point Happy...

But the reason that BC Ferries gave travellers a 33% discount in Dec and Jan has nothing to do with generosity and everything to do with the Liberals paying them off in a desperate measure to save themselves from extremely irate ferry dependent taxpayers when BC Ferries tried to reduce sailings in November 2008.

Jeez I get impatient with people who spout without checking first!!

Yes SQ Girl?

So what is they are "working' on in their crew room when there is no ferry in dock. The crib game I suspect.
Working on the docks in HB? Yes. Just like every year replacing the busted up bumpers SQ Girl. Do you have ANY idea what would be entailed to enlarge the docks? They would be shut for a year at least.
The HB residents don't have to be asked. If there was a problem affecting property values we'd know about it.
The reduced sailings qouted from the article above was from October, since rescinded. Your a bit behind.
No, they aren't tied up most of the time. You don't have to believe me. Try looking at the BC Ferries website for what ships are sailing what routes and when. Its easy.
Your final mistake - I live in the Creek

Aah, the Creek..

That figures.

Thanks

I love it too

Dr "E"

Your comment-

"Reduced sailings = reduced wages"

"Reduced wages ( y`know mortgage payments, feeding and clothing ones family, that sort of thing) due to foolish and vainglorious decisions made from above might jade ones outlook some ya think?"

sounds good to the rabble but just ain't true. When BC ferries first floated the plan to reduce sailings they stated quite clearly that employees would not be affected. They would still show up for work, even though thwe ferry wasn't sailing and do extra training.

Like I said - nice work if you can get it. Helps to be related, as SCG can confirm

sunshine coast girl

....is because Green Gordo is doing a little early electioneering -- just like he was doing at the premiers conference recently, by saying the opposition parties ought to cooperate with the government during these hard times.

happy

Well that`s good news happy...you really are a happy person..and make others happy too!
Good on you...must be the water down at the creek...trickle down happiness. No need for confirmation..I`ll take your word on it.
SCG.. related, rabble...no comprendo

Keep em coming folks

Thanks for making a long day at work a bit fun.

But how about instead of the snide remarks on where I live, or what kind of person I am, why not challenge me on my points - docks, reliability, hard working employees, that sort of thing. Work on it.

Sorry for going over your head Dr E. SCG=sunshine coast girl, related= related to a BCF employee is a great"in" to getting a job there yourself - nothing wrong with that - and rabble is a term coined by the left to describe itself eg, rabble.ca

Um, happy?

I take it you're not aware of the number of sailings in the past couple of months which have been cancelled at the last minute because the boats (the gas-guzzlers in question) weren't full?

Maybe, a couple of times, arrive at Swartz to catch a ferry for an appointment on the mainland only to find you can't make it because the 'scheduled' sailing has been cancelled to save diesel.

Try it sometime - 'great' service from the peoples' highway.

BTW, my understanding was that the 20 million pander payment was meant to make more sailings and cheaper sailings available between the Island and the mainland to stimulate tourist traffic and holiday travellers, correct?

Would the increased custom from travellers cooling their heels at the Ferries' little commercial enterprises at each terminal be included in that simulative program?

The service is worse now than it has ever been, the prices are higher and the level of secrecy and disinformation is greater.

What was that the CEO's reorganization/pseudo-privatization supposed to achieve? I've forgotten.

Oh, and by the way, seems to me that using the internet on your employer’s time to while away the hours is probably every bit as questionable from an ethical point of view – and a lot less ‘social’ than a game of crib with the boys.

Would that be unfair? Hope the time’s passing painlessly by friend….

Sorry for slow response. Working

No, I'm not aware of sailings being cx'd because they weren't full enough to save fuel. Can you show me something "objective" to make me change my mind? I'm open.

You are correct on the 20 mil. Politics. What else is new. Are you shocked? If the NDP was in power, this would, of course, be framed as a government helping the "working people" through tough times.

The rest of your post is neither here nor there, is it. Your personal opinion against mine. Standoff as usual.
That comparison of me to ferry workers is pathetic. I AM working West, unlike the "social club" who have NO work to do except for 20 minutes out of every two hours. I squeeze the Tyee in when I can. I never said my day was slow West. I said it was long.

A little touchy!

This is what you wrote:

"Thanks for making a long day at work a bit fun.'

I bet, if we asked those ferry workers sharing a social hand of crib when their 'work' was under control for 20 minutes or so that they'd make find the analogy of you posting comments at Tyee from the office computer for 'fun' wasn't so inapt.

In fact, in my 'office' I don't appreciate any of my colleagues using work time to surf the web and send emails either - which is why I never do the same - restricting my internet time to off-work hours....

I'm not necessarily criticizing you happy, I'm just saying that you're in a bit of a glass house on that particular point.

I can't show you the evidence because BC Ferries website purges its messages on a regular basis - I subscribe to their web service now because I've been burned too often already – and, this time of year I find the reservation system just another typical David Hahn cash cow – exactly like his short term parking policy .

I'll keep a log the next time it happens and let you know.

OK West

Seeing as how you love to split hairs so much, then we'll just say I post on my break times. As I don't get scheduled breaks and take them when operational requirements allow, we can say I'm not "stealing time" from my employer.
Which could care less what I do on the job, as long as the job itself gets done. It's called give and take. Works well in an adult workplace.
I await your damning evidence on the ferry cancellations.
Shame you have nothing to show right now so we could continue this pleasing diversion, but...

surfing

I think its really great happy that you use your at work computer time to visit the lefty sites like Tyee and rabble rather than Porn sites.

In my working days in hell years ago only management had internet access ..the union rank and file were not allowed. (They`d abuse it) Sometimes a bored supervisor would invite you in to check out a porn item... hey .." Check this out!" Guffaw Guffaw , or.. a visual racist joke of some kind. Could be embarrassing at times. I`ve always been uncomfortable around the hardworking cowboys and Canuck season ticket people.
But hey they can fire ya and they sure ain`t rabble and man do they work hard!
Kudos to you happy guy..go get `em!

Good one Dr E

I can assure you things have changed since your working days.
I work in a Union enviroment (not myself but have been a member previously) and ALL employees enjoy Internet access. We have desktops and laptops everwhere, they are essential to operations. When there is no work on the go the employees surf to thier hearts content, the co doesn't care.
Like I said to West, give and take.

Now, what does any of this thread drift have to do with the topic? Ferries, remember?
I can only assume nobody has anything to contribute so lets all slag happy instead.

Weak

"happy"......

But you cannot accord the same principle to the adult ferry workers? Last time I was on a BC ferry, we boarded without incident, and would have left on time, save for the mechanical problems the German-built ferry was having. Then we proceeded across the strait without incident, except for the vibration which in turn caused the goods on the shelves of the gift shop to dance about. Then we disembarked without incident.

I'd say the adult ferry workers performed their job well, and I could care less what they do either before or after that.

"Rick"

I accord everybody the same principle.
My point which seems to have been lost, was that some ferry workers don't have much scheduled work to do. When the ferry is only in dock for 20 minutes out of a two hour time period thats pretty sweet. 30 years of that and then a taxpayer funded Defined Benefit Pension plan? Brutal.
BTW Rick, I caught the good old Queen of Surrey the other night. Ran over an hour late because they couldn't shut the loading doors at one end so had to turn around on every leg.
Of course thats not near as bad as trinkets dancing around in the gift shop.

Happy...

From all your negative comments about how terminal employees in Langdale only work 20 minutes out of every hour I have to assume that you spend the entire day waiting for (something) at the Langdale ferry terminal. I did work at BC Ferries, twice. Once in the 70's and once after the Core Review in 2001. Neither time did I get my job because of family. In fact, both times I had to write a competency test.

The second time I worked there I worked as a crewing clerk so I can tell you, that as someone who actually spent the days at the terminal that employees only spent time in their room when they were on actual breaks. I know of what I speak; you, on the other hand are one of those people who let the words leave their mouths before they ascertain the truth of what they say.

Boy, you get lots of breaks at work, don't you? You posted 7 hours ago, then 6, then 4, then 3, then 2. I don't know anyone gets that many breaks in a day. Good work if you can get it.

So tell me. Are you one of those "waterfront millionaires" in the Creek, or one of those "back to the earthers" that have been there forever? A newbie, I bet. The new ones seem to have the most to say without knowing what they're talking about.

First mistake SCG.

I said they only work 20 minutes out of every TWO hours. Not one.
It appears you don't even remember how often the ferry was in the dock!
Yeah, I get lots of breaks. One minute here, two minutes there. Try thinking outside the Union box.
Which your old Crewing Clerk position isn't anymore, is it. Vince Ready took care of that.
Boy, you sure ask a lot of personal questions. All I can say is you're wrong about all your RC assumptions to.
Signing off now, places to go.

Cheers

and as for some of your other comments

The HB docks were closed for much longer last year than usual. Regardless of what you think, they were adjusted to accomodate the Coastal ferries. The way the docks were before couldn't. That is why the Coastal ferries will never be used on our run.

And the only reason that we don't have reduced sailings on the Sunshine Coast right now is because we got so irate and election time is coming. Those good ole BC Liberals can't have the electorate up in arms at that time of year. Watch what they do if BC Ferries reiterates the threat after the end of January.

Also, HB is quite different that Departure Bay. The ferries nose into HB while they sidle in sideways in Departure Bay. I'm sure that has a lot to do with noise and vibration levels. Who knows? Have you actually spoken to any HB residents? I haven't. The people in Departure Bay were more concerned about hazards and noise than property values, as far as I know.

Yep, Happy

Definitely wrong about the RC assumptions. After 50 years in the community, what would I know?

My mistake regarding the hour instead of two. So sue me. How much of a difference does it really make in the discussion?

One minute here, two minutes there all day long. And you think union workers have it easy? Like I said, good work if you can get it.

P.S. Vince Ready didn't kill the position. BC Ferries management at HB did FYI.

super "c" Liberal FastCat

ineffcient vessals unsuitable to run
does this not sound familiar? it knocked out a previous party to the point where it became 2 members in parliment.Yet we are complaining online rather than the streets.We allow the government to make monetary decsions for a so called private company yet we have no ability to see this companies books.Does this seem right?

Happy....Bashful,Doc,Dopey,Grumpy,Sleepy,Sneezy

And this matters how? I believe you said something to the effect of "as long as the work gets done".........?

GASP! Yet ANOTHER mechanical failure?! Mr. Hahn ought to be hiring some mechanical engineers, instead of more desk jockeys

Damn It... If Only the Ferries Were Built In BC!

Oooopppss... did anyone here mention the FSG fixed-price contracts or delivery schedule for the Renaissance Class? Nahhh... means nothin'.

To put things into perspective, the selection of FSG is akin to the selection of Concord Pacific for the Olympic Village development. Most here are unlikely to understand that in any event.

Now back to BC Ferries... and the new intermediate ship, the Island Sky, built by the Washington Marine Group, who also constructed the beloved Pacificats (the Millennium developer in Olympic Village parlance, perhaps?) from an insider:

Now let's here some more damnation of BC Ferries, shall we? Bring it on! ;)

Wrong....

luke skywalker

Somebody's asleep in the research department.

The Pacificats are now 'owned' by Washington Marine Group....they were built by Catamaran Ferries International Inc.

The design was by Philip Hercus of Incat Designs of Sydney, Australia and John J. McMullen Associates Inc., the largest independent naval architecture consulting firm in North America, conducted a technical assessment of the design and construction quality of the PacifiCat Explorer and her two sister ships, which were still under construction, in 1999. JJMA reported that "the vessels are fine ships and are of good quality throughout."

Not that you'd know that from anything that CanWest writes or the Watercarrier talks about...

Now, as for the

Now, as for the quality of the work of Washington Marine Group - of which you include an unattributed quotation - I think very little else needs to be written.

g west...

lol...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/03/25/ferries030325.html

Man... try to verify the veracity of your facts first dude before posting. :)

RIGHT BACK AT YOU

http://aabc.bc.ca/access/aabc/archbc/display/NVAN-115

And don't forget to check your dates, dude.

LOL

g west....

lol... so what's you point???

Cute, so you are now using the "UPPER case font in the subject heading", which was only utilized by Budd/Rod described in my previous post for some more demagoguery? ;)

http://thetyee.ca/News/2009/01/14/TestingKids/

THE POINT IS

You were wrong.

The Fastcats were built by the firm I listed - at the shipyards in question - the fact some of the shipyards in question are now in Dennis Washington's stable notwithstanding.

Like your piecemeal apprehension of the legislative process, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in some people's hands, apparently.

The Fastcats were built by a subsidiary of BC Ferries - period - and, if you're gonna play with the adults, you're going to have to try a little harder.

Why do you think it was so easy for Gordon Campbell to use the Fastcats to beat the NDP with?

Alright g west...

For everyone else, Budd Campbell/ Rod Smelser are the same poster as they were the only poster to utilize "UPPER" case font in the subject heading as explained at the end here:

http://thetyee.ca/News/2009/01/14/TestingKids/

And now g west wants to play the same "UPPER case" game... Some here might think it's COOL, lol, some might not... to each to his own. That aside...

I dunno, the NDP in 2000 withdrew the Pacificats from BC Ferry service, even before the third was completed, and hired PricewaterhouseCoopers to get rid of them.

How is that Campbell's fault??? An really who cares anymore???

I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GERMAN FERRIES

You know 'exactly' what I meant...as far as who cares, I agree.

But remember this, it was YOU who brought them up.

BTW, what was the source you failed to list for that little piece of out-of-context material about the 'Island Sky'?

You know the one you quoted back up the thread a few steps.

BTW, did you read Gordon Gibson's piece in Saturday's Globe and Mail?

I can give you a link if you like.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090116.wcogibson17/BNStory/specialComment/BritishColumbia/

Just the kind of thing I expect you'd like to read, eh?

Heres the deal sun coast girl

You still try to claim the docks had to be modified to accomodate the Coastals.

I'm afraid being a former crew clerk doesn't exactly qaulify you to make Engineering statements of fact.

So like I said up thread - show me. Don't tell me. Show me.

And while you're looking for these Engineering reports on the docks, why don't you read the Arbitration Report on the last BCFWMU contract written by Vince Ready.
It very clearly spells out how your former position was now to be considered "excluded" or non union.

In return for that, and other items BCF had asked for during contract negotiations, your former colleagues were given long term job protection.

Or do you have a different version of events than Mr Ready

Internet arguing for dummies

Tip Number One:

When one is reduced to picking apart typographic choices, one has clearly lost the argument and needs to go back to the handlers for new talking points.

"Cute, so you are now using the "UPPER case font in the subject heading", which was only utilized by Budd/Rod described in my previous post for some more demagoguery? ;)"

Is a great example. Or:

if one says: "You spelt labor using the American method and we're in Canada, so therefore my point is salient and yours is not!"

You may be an Internet dummy.

This is getting boring Happy...

I don't need to claim anything. All you have to do is watch the next time a Coastal boat comes into the dock at HB. They couldn't before the last round of dock repair.

Just as an aside, becoming "excluded" from the bargaining unit doesn't mean an automatic loss of employment. Ask the middle management staff and captains of the fleet. They are all excluded and still working at BCF.

I don't know Happy. Seems to me like pretty well every statement you have made has been blown out of the water (ha). Give it up and admit that you just don't know what you are talking about. It's awfully hard to throw stones when you live in a glass house, isn't it?

But you keep coming back, don't you SCG

Whenever a poster makes statements which are challenged, and then comes back with "I don't have to prove anything to you" or along those lines it means one thing - they have nothing to back up thier claims.
Being somewhat of a "newbie" yourself you probably thought you can just claim victory and thats that.
Check the specs on loading deck heights on the Coastals SCG. Same as the old C's. In fact they were specifically designed so that dock modifications would NOT be needed. Common sense. Even the Cats didn't do anything that stupid.

So find some resource material and get back to me, that is unless you're too bored. Me, I've got all day.

I'll even help get you started. The first Coastal entered service March 8. The annual dock repairs in HB last year dragged into May.

I never said exclusion meant job loss did I. I said it meant removal from the Union.
Please read closer in the future to prevent further misunderstandings

The basis of my remark

I think it was me who first mentioned that the docks had to be modified to accept the Fat Ferries.

That was based on a conversation I had with a ferries worker manning the unloading last year while the Horseshoe Bay dock nearest the shore was under construction. We were talking in a general way about the construction and it was he who mentioned that the alterations were to accommodate the new German Fat Ferries. He said they wouldn't fit into the present slips. I don't recall him saying it was because they were a different height, only that they wouldn't fit.

Perhaps they couldn't fit all the way in to the slip, so the ramp would reach the deck. The existing slips are designed to center the ferry by positive contact on both sides, while the boat is pressed into the dock by throttling up the engines.

The Fat Ferries are wider, so the bumpers on the existing slips must have held them out further from the ramp, and the older boats would be unable to be centered properly on either one side or the other in the larger, modified slip.

I admit it is assumption, but based on informed testimony, which lacked any motive to make me suspect deception.

I do seem to be wondering about the motives behind Happy's assertions here. Those do appear to be poorly supported, and consist to a large degree simply of unattributed bald denials of the assertions of other posters.

Another assumption is floating around here about what he meant when he claimed to live "in the Creek".

Happy, is there a bridge overhead? Any gruff billy goats in evidence?

Maybe the worker needs more training Bailey

You don't know what you're talking about

Right here:

"The existing slips are designed to center the ferry by positive contact on both sides, while the boat is pressed into the dock by throttling up the engines."

is wrong. Thats not how they dock. After the boat is nosed into the dock, the rudder is put hard over to one side so the ferry pushes itself aginst a huge concrete piling on ONE side with the engines running at slow ahead to keep it positioned. All BCF ferries use the same method. They are not centered.
So the rest of your post is irrelevant.

Same challenge to you as I already put out to everyone. Don't TELL me the docks had to be altered, which is all you're doing. SHOW me. Anything else is heresay.

Don't concern yourself with the Creek. That was for my neighbour sun coast girl and she knows what I meant.

Gotta hand it to you Happy...

When you get something in your head, nothing changes your opinion.

Oh well. At least you stopped harping about how terminal employees only work for 20 minutes out of every TWO hours. But you sure can be offensive when challenged.

The Creek talk seemed to stop PDQ after I said I was a 50 year local. What happened? Cat get your tongue?

Thanks for the compliment

I don't understand your Creek question however. What is it you want to know?

Where was I offensive. Did you report me to the Admin? It's his call, not yours.

As for my not changing my opinion, what has one single person provided me to do so? As far as I'm concerned, when you're right, you're right. And I'm right.

Opinion

opin·ion
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpin-yən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin opinion-, opinio, from opinari
Date: 14th century
1 a: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b: approval , esteem
2 a: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b: a generally held view
3 a: a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b: the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based
— opin·ioned \-yənd\ adjective
synonyms opinion , view , belief , conviction , persuasion , sentiment mean a judgment one holds as true. opinion implies a conclusion thought out yet open to dispute . view suggests a subjective opinion . belief implies often deliberate acceptance and intellectual assent . conviction applies to a firmly and seriously held belief . persuasion suggests a belief grounded on assurance (as by evidence) of its truth . sentiment suggests a settled opinion reflective of one's feelings .

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion

data

I want my ticket seller to sell me a ticket, and that is about it. The last time I took a ferry I was amazed they could accomplish that task while wheezing from the exertion caused by measuring a vehicle. Having valid data about fuel consumption is probably not within their scope, definitely not within their job description. They do a good job usually and really help a lot, why mess it up by playing over your head? Leave the supplying of information that one is not qualified to provide to others. Andrew McLeod should find another tempest in another teapot.
What a scandal!
Not.
The best comments were earlier about the Q of the N, another act committed for which they were obviously not qualified caused that one.

hearsay

Some time ago this conversation turned from the subject of ferries to the subject of the nature of opinion as it relates to the types of evidence.

With the books closed and the management secretive, we are unlikely to achieve a documentary chain or get a Ferries executive to testify, unless one of us actually is one.

When most people make an assertion, the source of it is usually pretty transparent. Sometimes it's a conversation, an article or a chain of reasoning. Sometimes a lifetime of study or experience. Sometimes because you were there when it happened. One can see that, see the assertion, and based on those things, give the assertion some weight.

Testimony, whether expert or eyewitness testimony is usually judged less than documents or tested fact. All of it is data, even the falsities.

The best evidence is unavailable, hidden by our government because they don't want British Columbians to know what that evidence shows.

We are left with whatever we have. If one is going to express an opinion, one really ought not to hide the basis for it. A bald assertion, with no hint to it's origins, is probably best ignored, since one has no way to judge it's reliability to assign it weight.

Ummm! Bailey..for your information and happy's discomfiture

You might wish to consult the 2006/07 annual report of the secretive corporation...the changes to the docks you spoke of, and happy disavowed with a considerable amount of confidence, are referred to quite plainly on page 17 of the report.

I'll copy the text for you:

We began a $28 million project to replace marine structures at Departure Bay and Horseshoe Bay in order to accommodate the Super Cs, which are longer and wider than the C-class ships currently docking
at these terminals. More than 20 B.C. companies are involved in the project.

I think that's a little more than peanuts and I'm sure sunshine coast girl will be pleased to know she wasn't 'dreaming' either.

If anyone cares to 'check up' on me, please, feel free:

http://www.bcferries.com/files/PDFs/BCFS_AR_0607.pdf

The truth, as they say, is out there.

Enjoy.

Open government

That was Campbell's promise and he's given us the most secretive government I can remember and I go back to WAC Bennett.From having a lobbyist as his chief advisor(and in charge of no less than 6 major projects,most of which he resigned leaving them in terrible shape)to cabinet members meeting on many occasions with his head election strategist(not a lobbyist either it seems)to the Olympics.These have proven to be a bottomless pit into which untold(or disclosed)amounts of cash disappear forever,never to be seen (or acknowledged)again.The worst of all are the secretive and hugely destructive on a massive scale run of the river projects.These are not only a giveaway of the birthright of every British Columbian without any consultation.But are being sold to the people as green and very small projects that will supply green energy.There is no mention of the short time we have any right to this power,even at extraordinarily increased rates.These are the theft of rivers that we will not realise the true value of for many years to come.By then the devastation will be evident to all but it will be too late to do a thing about it.At a time when public/private partnerships are becoming the pariahs they really are,Campbell still considers them,in spite of evidence to the contrary,the way to go.Why?Follow the money.I have no skill in doing this but the only reason for the crooked BC rail giveaway,the attempted sell off of the Coquihalla just months before removal of tolls(how long would people have paid if it had been sold?)sale of the BC ferries and the bad deal that's been for everyone.What is this guys game?I am sure of one thing.The Campbell family will be wealthy for generations after he finishes selling of what belongs to you and me.I don't remember giving him any right to sell off anything he wanted to and to do it in such an under handed and secretive way.Even Wally Opal says it stinks but there's nothing he can do because of the fishnet holes in the Campbell crafted legislation.When you make up the rules,it's easy to beat them.

Too right

Bailey, you are right. I think specified data, like a fuel consumption rate is reliable only when measured and proven. Slandering the company is an ugly tradition, identifying and solving problems -which all new products have- is something else. If the fuel consumption rate was guaranteed then maybe we should get our money back? New carbs and air filter? Many products are performance guaranteed. I assume they are more cost effective than the FastCats, maybe the traditional ships, some real performance data would be nice, efficiency reports etc.
Are these reports being buried or is that just more anti-Campbell-zealot-babble? I know he eats babies sicntired but that is not the point. Try decaf. And research.

Finally

Thank you West.

This was all I asked. Show me I said, something "objective" to back up a point and I have no problem admitting I was in error. On this point.
The reason I stuck to my guns was for the same reason you've dismissed some (most?) of my comments in the past. An anonymous poster has no "creds" according to you.
So I asked for the same you would have and no one had anything. Till now.

Good job. Maybe the Tyee should take you on as a researcher.

Don't get too smug though. You've been wrong before to. But at least you admit it.

So now that we've determined the Coastals are longer and wider than the C's,in which I've said before that I believe (my opinion only)is due to higher commercial vehicle capacity, do you think we may be closing in on why they use more fuel?

Nope

The problem with fuel usage is mostly a design issue - not a gross tonnage issue - in my view.

It has several aspects - only a few of which have been explored.

Ironically, the design criteria specified by the corporation and transmitted to the German builders were exceedingly complex and the construction time-line was so compressed that these ferries appear to suffer from exactly the same sort of problems (not enough model tank testing and too much computer simulation or analysis specific to their eventual usage) as the fast cats.

That is, the matching of hull size and dynamics to the wetted area, gross tonnage, service variables (especially in terms of payload variables) was done too quickly and without sufficient care and consultation.

BTW, you took that pill like a man, I appreciate it.

As to my skills as a researcher - thanks for the kudos but I don't think the Tyee will be hiring me any time soon.

I have a fairly large file of redactions, warnings and cautions from the editors - and a shortage of commendations (even mixed ones like yours) from that source.

Back to work - I took the morning off to watch the inauguration or I wouldn't be answering this now....

Oh, just by the by - here's the first

Here's the first item in that 'log' I promised you:

http://www.bcferries.com/bcfservicenotice?id=84634

Now that didn't take long did it?

reservations

I wonder if people get the surcharge for their reservation back?

But is it a problem at all?

Because the bottom line is....the fuel burn was gauranteed by the builder in the contract. When this subject first surfaced I read somewhere where an executive from the German yard was asked about this. He replied that during trials the burn was exactly as specified and he's be quite surprised to hear otherwise. I believe that. So that tells me that it was known how much fuel would be required for operations and this isn't some sort of "fiasco"
They use more because they were planned to use more.
But I've been wrong before haven't I

Uh, West?

Firstly, that "log" shows a cancellation of a Spirit. Not a Coastal

Secondly, no reasons are provided, so how would you be able to state that any previous Coastal cacellations were because the ferry didn't have a large enough load to justify the fuel burn?

I could care less - if they're trying to save fuel

If they're trying to save fuel the tactic of not sailing unless they're fully laden would apply, mutatis mutandis, no matter what ferry we're talking about.

If they slipped a clutch, the onus is on them to tell the public.

The point is, they're already saddled by almost 2 billion dollars in long term debt and they just negotiated another big load from a German bank (not included in that total) - the corporation is drowning in red ink - and they've also just 'lent' the Jawl Brothers 25 million dollars to help them build a new headquarters building so they can lease it from them.

If you don't see what's wrong with this picture then you aren't as smart as you think you are.

Design

Non sequitur happy.

The design criteria listed fuel economy as a major requirement...but the bright lights at the corp also failed to understand the way naval architecture works and they accepted the German design proposal on the basis that it was presented.

Clearly, the problem is with head office and probably not with the German design - who knows what would have happened if the BC specs and the desired timelines hadn't been in force?

I'd really like to see some comparative stats from other ferry operations - suffice to say, in the current climate, if there wasn't a problem, we would have heard it....

Well then

The Reaissance is presently 40% full for a 1245 departure.
Do you contend this sailing will be cancelled?

And skip the insults if you don't mind.

I could care less - if they're trying to save fuel

Said he. You seem to have backtracked a tad. Before it was they WERE cacelled due to trying to save fuel.

Now its IF they are trying to save fuel.

Which one do you want to go with?

Yes, I know you couldn't care less, but enquiring minds would like to know.

Thanks for the backup G West..

I knew I wasn't dreaming and I appreciate the support. My husband works in Town and commutes every day. He had lots to say while it was being modified.

When you live in a community for as long as I have (and as long as Happy professes to have) you learn things about your community, particularly your transportation system to the outside world. I guess some people didn't notice when it was happening and that's why they required "paperwork".

insults???

'non sequitur' is an insult?

In formal logic, a non sequitur is an argument where its conclusion does not follow from its premises.

If the corporation doesn't specify the reason for a cancelled sailing I think it's logical to assume that - whatever the class of the vessel - the reason may well be related to not wishing to expend fuel unless the damn thing has enough paying customers to justify the crossing.

When you're bleeding red ink and putting the squeeze on folks who park more than 3 minutes in a drop off zone I think it's entirely logical to draw the conclusion I drew from an unexplained cancellation.

In fact, I seem to recall a statement from the CEO (Hahn not Campbell) to the effect that they were going to have to cut back sailings in a general way to save money.

You remember that or not?

Anyway, I'm out of here - having gotten all the hope I can wring out of Barack Obama's somewhat disappointing speech I guess I'll head off to work.

I said what?

There you go putting words in my mouth.

Where did I ever profess how long I've lived near you?

You asked mind you, what was my response?

It was that you asked too many personal questions. Such as, where do you live, how long , whats your income level - millionaire or aging hippy - and so on.

I don't ask anybody stuff like that and sure as hell won't answer.

Courtesy

Back to school for happy

"Not as smart as you think you are"

OK, we'll just call it a dig then. I considered it bad taste after I had admitted an error.
I guess I'm not ready to run with the big dogs yet.

goooglemonster

i recently rode the cruise ship like celebration ferry..and i have to say i thought it had the worst design ive ever seen. Its like its all hallways..panelling..just a piece of junk on the interior. I love the old ferries wide open areas..which of course fostered more community amongst travellers.

As for the low ridership..ever heard of a seat sale..oh wait you cut prices. How about really cutting prices and giving the people that pay for your jobs a break. We are in a recession and or depression. Higher amounts of traffic during the slow periods will help to offset the huge costs and keep people employed in decent jobs.

Of course im arguing here on the Tyee..where everyone already knew that.
-bill