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BC's Noisy New German Ferries

Louder than previous models, they rattle some coastal residents' homes.

By Andrew MacLeod, 15 Dec 2008, TheTyee.ca

BC Ferry

Some call new C-class ferries 'Coastal Thunder.'

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Eleven of 36 households surveyed through the Departure Bay Neighbourhood Association said they were disturbed by noise from the new ferries.

Kelly Franklin, who lives in the area five kilometres north of downtown Nanaimo,* circulated the survey last April among his neighbours, some of whom live as much as a couple kilometres from the terminal. He shared the results with B.C. Ferries, he said, but has not previously released them publicly.

Franklin provided a summary of people's comments to the Tyee, but with names and other identifying information removed.

Noise and vibration, along with fuel consumption, are problems related to what may be design flaws with the three new vessels, bought from German shipyard Flensburger Schiffbau Gesellschaft at a total project cost of $542 million.

The ships, the last of which was put into service in November for no more than two afternoons a week, have been spending more time at the dock than carrying passengers. B.C. Ferries is yet to fully explain why.

'Rumble keeps me up'

"Yes, the noise from the new ferry disturbs me, but only when it is in port," wrote one neighbour. "The morning rumble wakes me up and the evening rumble keeps me up; I recently travelled on the first sailing and the vibration was unbelievable in the boat."

The noise level while the boats were moving had improved, the person wrote. "I am grateful as our whole house vibrated when they came in. I had a concern about the disturbance of the soil stability but that issue doesn't seem to be an issue now."

"The new ferries are definitely much louder than the old ones," wrote another respondent who lives a kilometre from the terminal. "We can at times feel vibrations from the engines that make our house doors rattle and on one occasion -- while the ferry was revving up its engines as it sat at the dock -- the noise was almost as loud as that of a helicopter."

Yet another wrote that the "Coastal Thunder" coming and going was "turning the entire Departure Bay basin into an industrial noise area."

Other respondents said the noise did not bother them and they didn't think people should complain. "We would be unhappy if complaints from our neighbourhood association were to cause the new ferries to be moved to another route so please proceed with caution," wrote one.

After Franklin forwarded all the comments to B.C. Ferries, he said, the company sent technicians to measure noise, but failed to tell residents what they found. "I've never heard back from them. I've never heard from them at all." The noise continues, he said.

High prop can cause noise: engineer

B.C. Ferries has said it is working on ways to reduce the noise and vibration from the ships. In the summer the company reportedly added new mufflers to the engines on the Coastal Celebration and said that helped enough that they would be doing the same with all three.

Then a few weeks ago, The Tyee reported, the company performed an unusual test using as many as 18 gravel trucks to weigh down one of the vessels. The company is yet to say whether the full load helped. Nor is it clear how adding weight permanently to the vessels would affect fuel consumption should the company decide to do that.

The test points to the suspicion that the noise and vibrations are related to how high the ships sit in the water.

It's a theory confirmed by Stefan Krueger, an engineering professor at Hamburg University of Technology, who helped design the new ferries. When the ships are at berth, the propeller may draw some air, said Krueger in an e-mail. It is "absolutely harmless for the ship or the propeller, but it can cause some noise," he wrote.

Once loaded and underway, the propellers will be "sufficiently submerged" to prevent the problem, he said.

In an essay on the design of the new ferries, Krueger and two co-authors describe how the propulsion system was chosen.

They chose "a propeller diameter as large as reasonably possible," arriving at five metres. They based the size on the maximum draft of the ships, the amount of the hull that would be under the water line when fully loaded. That maximum draft is 5.75 metres.

Twenty centimetres below

When the ship is unloaded, however, the blades come much closer to the surface. According to one analysis, when unloaded, the draft is just 5.2 metres, so the blades would be within 20 centimetres of the surface.

Or as an FSG employee, Markus Brinkmann, put it participating in a web forum discussion of the Tyee's first article on the design problems with the ferries. "When the Coastals are in the dock, the propellers suck air -- yes, no doubt." It won't happen while they're moving, he said.

It is also key that the propellers turn at a constant speed of 127 revolutions per minute, even when docked. Krueger said in an e-mail that he does not consider a long idling time "normal or useful, because of the related fuel consumption." He did not, however, respond to a further e-mail asking how long would be needed to shut down the ship and start it back up again.

And as neighbours of the ferry terminals like Franklin in Nanaimo know well, the ships on the major routes spend a significant amount of time empty at the dock. They are there when they start in the morning, when they shut down at night and for 25 or 30 minutes while unloading and reloading between hour and a half crossings.

The ships came with a two-year warranty and FSG had to meet standards for noise, vibration, speed and fuel consumption or B.C. Ferries could have rejected them. Officials from both companies have said the ships met all specifications during sea trials.

Altogether the problem appears bigger than B.C. Ferries officials are admitting, Franklin said. "I think there is quite a fiasco here. They didn't do their due diligence with this design."

And as more than one ship builder said in background interviews, if the problems with the new ferries were easy to fix, they would have been fixed by now.

*Correction made at 11:20 a.m., Dec. 16, 2008.

Related Tyee stories:

[Tyee]

Louder than previous models, they rattle some coastal residents' homes.

97 Comments:

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  • DPL

    3 years ago

    Oh boy, things don't sound

    Oh boy, things don't sound so good with these bought somewhere else boats. At yards heavily subsidized besides.

    The government was hell bent to buy offshore even though bigger ferries were built right here and the taxes from the salaries and most of the salaries would have been spent locally. But as we all know King Gordo knows best. Wonder how many home owners will be suing BC Ferries for damage to their homes?

  • mcdull

    3 years ago

    I tried to give this story

    I tried to give this story to a MSM reporter last spring but they weren't interested. Just in writing pretty pictures of how great they are.

  • doggone

    3 years ago

    check my arithmetic

    I have to assume the propellors are "variable pitch" because a 5 meter prop at 127 rpm has a tip speed of about 34 meters per second. Even "feathered" props moving at that speed will pound the environment with shock waves: the hull of the boat and the shallow bottom.
    That's my guess
    By the way:
    Departure Bay is not "South of Nanaimo"

  • ME2

    3 years ago

    Question

    It's probably a dumb question, but I'll ask it anyway. "Why don't these contraptions come with a clutch installed?"

  • monty

    3 years ago

    Tome to follow the money on many issues

    Who goes to what little helper to make sure this ferry decision went to Germany? there has to be some written record hidden behind someone wall bookcase along with all the other curreut deals for which presusaded enhancements were paid. Perhaps some investigate reporter could starting a search of the bookcases in certain Point Grey homes................say start with Peter Brown (Cannacord), MCLean (CN Rail), Zlotnik (Parks board good buddy). Then locate all their offshore accounts. Then do the same with all the developers who made so much money, and complained about a lack of workers. Now they finished the projects, charged in excess of original bids,unmonitored by an government oversight, fled town or left abandoned
    crapp around the lower mainland. this is not good enough and we are complete suckers if we put up with it,

    THIS IS OUR MONEY FOLKS AND WE ARE BEING ROYALLY SCREWED. SO WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    lemons,germon lemons

    Quite right,if they could be fixed they would be fixed, why did why but these ferries, are they not needed? Why are we using our old BC built ferries that are faster,more fuel efficient and carry more?

    Why indeed,most of our BC built fleet is decades old and our old fleet still out performs these german tubs!

    Excessive Vibrations will tear those ferries apart,everything from electronics,windows,doors,everything, that is why their sitting,BC ferries could easily hide the excessive fuel use,these boats are tearing themselves apart,the annual maintenance on boats like that would be a 24/7 job.

    They have been working on this problem for a long time,here is the story from last summer.

    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=44f0604a-1379-4262-919a-adbe2dc7ca3e

    The only use for these will be to convert them into floating hotels, 17 days of use for the olympics then retire them!

    "Revenge is a dish best served cold"

    When the Liberals ask questions next fall in the legislature to the governing NDP it will be hilarious,the NDP can answere every question with....The doom and gloom of the 2000s and vibrating foreign built scrap!

  • RickW

    3 years ago

    Is it time.......

    .....to contact the Washington Marine Group.....?

  • PeteL

    3 years ago

    I tried to give this

    I tried to give this story
    mcdull
    9 hours ago

    I tried to give this story to a MSM reporter last spring but they weren't interested. Just in writing pretty pictures of how great they are.

    -------------------------------------

    Actually, these The Tyee stories were hand delivered by a reporter in the MSM. This stuff is just a peek at what amounts to years of work on ferry issues.

    A big thank you ought to go out those on the case for a long time. Without that material and background and advice these latest two stories wouldn't have carried with them any impact.

    Kudos to that reporter.

    [EDITOR'S NOTE: THE TYEE'S ARTICLES ON B.C. FERRIES ARE ORIGINAL REPORTING AND WERE WRITTEN USING MATERIAL FROM NUMEROUS SOURCES.]

  • PeteL

    3 years ago

    When lemons fly

    "When the Liberals ask questions next fall in the legislature to the governing NDP it will be hilarious,the NDP can answere every question with....The doom and gloom of the 2000s and vibrating foreign built scrap!"

    Well ferry issues have been going on for more than three years and all the while Gary Coons has been fiddling while Rome is burning.

    There is nothing that leads me to believe the Ferry critic or his leader are going to amplify these issues to the level they deserve. They have done nothing to bring this province the relief it needs form the Campbell Coastal Ferry Act.

  • Wilfred Laurier

    3 years ago

    Good idea

    "...to contact the Washington Marine Group."

    One little problem: They don't have a yard large enough to build vessels of this class. The yards that built the Spirit boats are no longer in existence.

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    If they're such wonderful ships

    Why have they spent most of the time tied up since they got here? BC Ferries won't tell us. Blaming the fuel consumption on the way the crew operates the ship...geez. Are we stupid or something? They can't even be used on Route 3 (Langdale).

    How come people aren't kicking and screaming about these things being the Liberal's "fast ferries"? Real double standard.

    Lose the Coastal Ferry Act. Let's go back to the old way.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    should have had glennocchio

    should have had glennocchio running the show. jack munro and the like could have been on the board of directors, the local shipyards could have built them and charged 3 times more than contracted, and we could have watched them sit in shrinkwrap for eternity. darn, another missed opportunity.

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    Sirjohna

    At least the fast ferries didn't cost any more than the German ships and at least the money would have stayed in BC.

    And the fast ferries didn't have to be auctioned off for scrap metal; that was your wonderful Premier making a point.

    Both bad ideas. Should have stuck with "C" class vessels. Amazing your Premier would make the same one so soon after demonizing the NDP. Slow learner, is he?

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    you forgot one sunshine:

    you forgot one sunshine: the fast ferries were completely useless!

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    I guess

    they were no more useless than the new ones. At least I think they're pretty useless because they've spent most of their time here in BC tied up!!!

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Sirjohnna

    One only need read your posts to understand you through and through.

    Funny how it is our BC built ferries that are working,working everyday,carrying more people,more cars,more fuel efficient.

    It is obvious,you are unaware that the BC built spirit class are world famous for great reliable ferries,what part about a local shipbuilding economy don`t you understand?
    I have the class to admit that the fast ferries were the wrong design for BC,you on the other hand look for a straw man,are you related to Rman?

    Wilfred, let me explain the remark about the Washington marine group, the remark from RickW isn`t about them building ferries,it is about them BUYING THE FERRIES

  • NicS

    3 years ago

    Another Sinker For The Liberals

    Unless the Liberals can come up with a fix for the problems of the new German built ferries before the May election, the ferry issue is going to be a major election issue. With any luck we can use this looming problem for Mr. Campbell and the Liberals to drive them from office forever.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Campbell "Ferrygate"

    In February, of 2003 while the fast Ferries were on the auction block, Ritchie Bros. listed the vessels on their website. This website listed a report on how the vessels could be modified. The report itself made reference to two other reports on the same subject. The first report was produced in early 2000 by Kvaerner Masa Marine (KMM). Then came a review of this report by Catamaran Ferries International (CFI), the subsidiary of BC Ferries, and finally in September of that year another report by John J. McMullen Associates (JJMA) of Washington was prepared. All dealt with the “Slow Pacificat” concept. In the JJMA Report the executive summary say, ”In brief we concur with the KMM and the CFI conclusions that such conversions are feasible.”

    There were two options. The first option was to make no structural changes but simply run the vessels at half speed. Fuel consumption would be reduced by 60 percent or a cost reduction of $1000 an hour and the reduction in maintenance could be reduced by approximately 25 percent. Cost of implementing this option was about $300,000 to $1 million per vessel.

    A second option was to remove two engines and two gear boxes which at the slow speed would not be required. This would require some structural modification due to the change in buoyancy of the stern or trim of the vessel but once that was corrected an additional 35 % carrying capacity could be added. Cost of this option would be about $3 million per vessel.

    The KMM report addressed such deficiencies as the ferries inability to carry semi-trailer trucks, their low deadweight carrying capacity, the heavy wake wash effect and the “mechanical unreliability“. More extensive structural modification were recommended. . It recommended a budget of $15 million per vessel be set aside for this purpose. A third, the CFI report recommended minor modifications such as suggested in the JJMA report followed by a trial and it left open the option of going back to the 35 knot capability. Cost estimates for this ranged from a low of $1.2 million to the high cost option of $11 million per vessel..

    All work could be done in BC. Why didn’t it happen? All the liberal fan club would not have had anything to flagellate the NDP with.

    Now it seems the Liberals have their own Ferrygate and you may include the Northern Misadventure in this.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    sunshine

    sounds to me like they'll be in use for some time to come. the fact that they're a little noisy doesn't sound like such a big deal. let's not forget that the islanders are wellknown for wanting their cake and eating it too.

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    I agree NicS

    But what I don't understand is why the Liberals can make mistake after mistake for so long and no one says a word. (Pay raises for both MLA's and Sr. staff, Olympics, carbon tax, german ferries, sea to sky highway at Eagleridge, major convention centre overruns, drunk driving in foreign countries, Cabinet members having to step down due to suspicions, raiding of the Leg by police, more homelessness, more child poverty, more child deaths, all come to mind without even thinking about it.) Yet, the NDP misteps a couple of times and bam! Right over the head.

    Excellent info skywalker. I wasn't aware of those details. Seems like it would have been much cheaper to modify what we had than to create something entirely new that appears to be useless to us.

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    Sirjohna

    And when would that be starting? We're still using the old "C" class vessels. They run the new ones for a few days and then pull them from service. How are we ahead of where we were before they arrived (with all that fanfare)? And they are more than "a little noisy". I have a friend who lives on the hill immediately above Departure Bay and I have been in the house when one came in. The noise is horrendous. You could hardly hear the TV and the house was vibrating along with the ship. She was so concerned about the soil on the hill that she had it tested for stability. Maybe you should spend more time seeing things firsthand before you have so much to say about it.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    sunshine coast girl

    As I recall one of the big complaints about the fast ferries was the waves and wash created by the high speeds. At the time I suspect that sirjohna was supporting the local residents complaining about "wanting their cake and eating it too". All this points to the double standard when commenting on actions of government.

    Considering the $457 million spend on the German lemons plus the extra now needed, it is hard to imagine that the Fast Ferries could not haave been made workable with much, much less. But they would have had to give up the whip with which to flagellate the NDP. Impossible for an egomaniac like Campbell to resist. Nor did the NDP have the guts to fight back after the Liberals were elected and the NDP are still cowering under James. That is a whole other story.

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    Right on skywalker..

    I have to agree. Actually living in a coastal community (something I suspect SirJohna does not) has what happens with BC Ferries affect your everyday life, so most people pay attention to what's going on. Maybe that's why some people, like our friend here, don't understand that they have a double standard.

  • dr evil

    3 years ago

    foghorn

    I`ve heard..I can`t substantiate it though that the new ships whistle and foghorns sound something like a very deep GOOOOORE- DON GOOOORE-DON
    Could someone maybe clear this up for me?
    SirjohnA..know anything of this?

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    no, but i like it.

    no, but i like it.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    my point about the islanders

    my point about the islanders having their cake and eating it too is substantiated by the fact that they oppose a bridge to the island tooth and nail, but they spend most of their time complaining about the ferry system. those of us who don't use the ferry system but subsidize it through our tax dollars (b/c islanders don't want to pay what it actually costs to run such a system), are sick and tired of listening to them whine.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    A bridge to the island?

    You are so wise Sirjohnna,I am sure all the tanker traffic,cruise ships will have no problem with a `10 billion dollar bridge during fog,storms tides.

    Once the bridge is completed to Vancouver island they can carry on with a bridge to Hawaii, then from there a bridge to Japan. A bridge from Newfoundland to the UK will be built after that. In fact I don`t why the province didn`t consult you before the sea to sky highway upgrade, they could of built a bridge from Vancouver to Whistler!

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    oh my...do some research

    oh my...
    do some research please quarry. look up dr. pat mcgeer. EDITED FOR PERSONAL JABS. PLEASE REFRAIN OR YOU WILL BE CONSIDERED A TROLL AND BLOCKED. -- TYEE MODERATOR

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Sirjohnna

    Research you say, here is the research.

    Have a look at this short 7 page pdf file done by the BC ministry of transportation in 2002(Campbell liberals)

    Pay special attention to page 7.....one way tolls would be anywhere from 360$ to 1600$ ---double those prices for a round trip
    Next time do some research before you build a bridge to nowhere!

    http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/355423/fixedlink_2002pdf

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    i told you to look up 'dr.

    i told you to look up 'dr. pat mcgeer'. if you do you'll see that the route he designed is still considered absolutely viable, and the toll would not be excessive, or the entire project would be moot. still waiting for the apology.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    here is that link sirjohnna

    http://www.llbc.leg.bc.ca/public/PubDocs/bcdocs/355423/fixedlink_2002.pdf

    read page 7

    then apoligize

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Your hero Gordon Campbell

    This is the cost projections by your hereo,they examine all routes,from cable suspension,floating bridges,tunnels,they have compared with the Chunnel,Japans tunnel and other bridge from around the world,I don`t need to look up Mcgeer, anything can be built,You will note that the costs are in 2002 dollars, I don`t know of anyone willing to pay 1000s of dollars for a round trip to the island!

    I will never apoloigize to you, if you want to spout off,put up the links to back your claims.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    quarry bay

    Nice going! I think one would call that "Check and Mate"

  • wstander

    3 years ago

    Wakey Wakey

    It has been commented on to some extent earlier, but as I recall, the cost overruns were well known, but the ferries were up and running. It was the complaints of a few property owners who complained about the inconvenience caused by the wake which led to the decision to slow them down, and then eventually to decide they were unusable. If that is the precedent, these new ferries should have the same fate.

    BTW, my impression is, based on the road and ferry reports that are broadcast on the media each day, that an inordinate number of ferry runs are being cancelled. No reason given, but I suspect they may be cancelling runs on an ad hoc basis to reduce cost on less than full ferries. Imagine what would happen if the buses and airplanes tried to get away with that one.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    quarry

    your link is a de facto report done by the mot. it simply states the total projected cost if the provincial gov't funded the project without partnership, sponsorship etc.. therefore the projected tolls in that report are academic. david hahn has stated that he will have another look at this proposal and that the tolls would be similar to the ferry rates but would not exceed them.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Grasping at straws.

    Never expected anything else. Hahn will have another look! Isn't he the same guy that bought these lemons and had to have them built out of the country. Real comforting to have him take a second look.

  • crh

    3 years ago

    ferry cancellations

    I to have felt that there have been a lot of ferry cancellations lately, with mechanical problems being used the most. Also 'medical emergencies' is another favorite.

    Now, with our ferry corp cancelling sailings whenever they find it convenient, the public cannot rely on them to get them to the other side on time. It just gets from bad to worse.....

  • Fish-counter

    3 years ago

    Time for change in the way the BC Ferries are operated

    Here are a few reasons:

    The Fast Cat Fiasco. Say no more, except that a proverbial little bird told me that they were a fiasco years before they came into operation. Let's not revive them; the bow wave they caused was an erosion hazard and aluminum hulls in log-infested waters just don't work.

    When the Duke Point terminal was built, it was supposed to replace the Departure Bay terminal completely. The original plan called for two docking bays to accept all ferry traffic to Nanaimo. The Duke Point terminal was built "under budget" only because it was half-built. Maybe the large ferries should use the newer Duke Point terminal, which acutually IS 'south of Nanaimo'.

    I hate to harp on this again, but. It is two years since the Queen of the North was sunk and no charges have been laid against anyone. As a minimum, "obstruction of justice" and "criminal negligence causing death" would appear appropriate, and I don't care whose heart was broken by a romantic tiff; two passengers died, period. When a state-of-the-art ferry runs aground on an island, it is time for a new commander.

    The "Final Solution" to the Vancouver Island ferry issue is to build bridges from Vancouver Island to Gabriola then take the shortest ferry route to the mainland. It will take 20-30 years to do it, but it is inevitable. It will save millions of gallons of fuel per year and cut sailing time in half. Unfortunately Gabriola Island will never be the same again.

    Meanwhile the Cilaire Bluffs are being shaken on a regular basis. Those bluffs are not solid rock folks, and many of the slope-stabilising trees that grew on them have been cleared to improve the view.

    Merry Christmas.

  • doggone

    3 years ago

    Chapman's Rules

    There are fairly good publications available regarding Nautical design and simple physics:
    Speed of a vessel is directly related to length of water line and power and inversly related to weight and wetted surface area (drag). If you wish to push these rules you can attempt to build a vessel which "planes" meaning it breaks loose from the drag of the stern wave - effectively stretching it's length of water line. Or you could work on Hydrofoil
    technology if there were no deadheads expected. There is a simple solution: Give up!
    Any vessel moves efficiently up to it's "hull speed". That is about 1.15 times the square root of the length of the water line. Beyond that speed fuel consumption escalates and wake increases but speed hardly increases at all until (if your hull is designed to "plane" and you actually have the horsepower needed) you break free of the stern wave.
    I'm guessing that the "Flying Cats" were actually designed to plane but rarely saw sea conditions where passengers would not suffer and the danger of slurping up driftwood and damaging your fancey Jet drives increases with speed and aluminium is not as rigid a steel so your hull is also at risk.
    My advice:
    Slow down. Run a ferry (steel Hull) at about 20 knots.
    We on this Island are used to that and
    IT WORKS!

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    Actually, Sirjohna..

    I'm getting awfully sick and tired of listening to you Lower Mainlanders whine and complain about the cost of new roads, bridges and public transit. And I really resent having to pay for Olympics that won't benefit anybody but Vancouver and the City of Whistler. Those of us who live on the Island and the Sunshine Coast subsidize your roads, bridges, Olympics and buses but you don't hear us whining about it.

    We all help pay for everything. Could you find a better argument please?

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Sirjohnna

    Ya right, Hahn is going to look at the bridge option,gee,I didn`t know he had the authority to spend 10 to 20 billion $

    What difference would it make who is funding a bridge to the island? Private,public,local,provincial goverment,whoever,there is only one PAYER-The commuter!

    Do you actualy know what you say Sirjohnna?

    The port mann twinning project(if anyone can find any money) is estimated at almost 2 billion dollars.

    2 Billion to cross a river,what do you think a 26 kilometer bridge would cost with ocean depths near a thousand feet and a muddy bottom?
    Your a little(alot) out of your league Sirjohnna,your argument doesn`t pass the smell test.

    Perhaps you could provide a link with Hahn`s education background, I was unaware that he had a master degree in bridge construction or a degree in advanced economics,I doubt Hahn is smart enough to pass a lie detector!
    Meanwhile what do we do for a decade while they are spending 2 billion a year?

    As someone who has spent decades on the ocean it is apparent you must be a flatlander, with one of the busiest ports on the west coast with thousands of ships navigating our waters,with fog,storm force winds and you want a bridge out there!

    EDITED FOR PERSONAL JABS. PLEASE REFRAIN OR YOU WILL BE CONSIDERED A TROLL AND BLOCKED. -- TYEE MODERATOR

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Fish counter

    How do you figure we will save all that fuel?
    How much fuel does the ferry use? Does it use more fuel than 300 cars driving individualy from Vancouver to Gabriola?

    Just a little food for thought,you might want to re-think that, oh and don`t come back with electric bullshit,if that was the case the ferry would be electric by then as well,maybe you and Sirjohnna should take a tour of Willie wonka`s chocalate factory, maybe Willie can inspire you with a better idea!

  • RickW

    3 years ago

    sunshine coast girl

    Quote:
    I have a friend who lives on the hill immediately above Departure Bay and I have been in the house when one came in. The noise is horrendous. You could hardly hear the TV and the house was vibrating along with the ship. She was so concerned about the soil on the hill that she had it tested for stability.

    Sirjohna and ilk always figure that progress comes with a price -- but one that someone else -- anyone else! -- should be prepared to pay. Just not them........

  • Luke Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Thoughts...

    From the article:

    Quote:
    Eleven of 36 households surveyed through the Departure Bay Neighbourhood Association said they were disturbed by noise from the new ferries.

    Quote:
    Kelly Franklin, who lives in the area south of Nanaimo, circulated the survey last April among his neighbours

    The Departure Bay ferry terminal is situate in central Nanaimo, NOT south of Nanaimo.

    Quote:
    Altogether the problem appears bigger than B.C. Ferries officials are admitting, Franklin said. "I think there is quite a fiasco here. They didn't do their due diligence with this design."

    That certainly is not independent expert opinion. It's just a layman's opinion. Certainly wouldn't stand up as evidence in a BC Supreme Court of British Columbia trial. :)

    Just reviewing certain tests that most people prefer to meet.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Hello Fish counter

    You absolutely lost me with a comment like "When a state-of-the-art ferry runs aground on an island". The Queen of the North was state- of-the-art? Did you ever sail on her and have you ever sailed on her sister ship still plying the Inside Passage while the Northern Misadventure bought by Hahn & Gordon an Co. still sits in drydock for modifications. The total cost now getting toward $100 million for a conventional ferry that only loads from one end. All the rest of your comment is trash talk not based on anything but tittilating gossip.

  • Denis

    3 years ago

    Noisy Ferries

    Hey there,
    Wake up folks. You live near a ferry terminal!!
    If you didn't know, or are not aware, it's somewhat like an airport.
    There will be noises, smells, vibrations, whistles, car traffic, and dear knows what else. It all just goes with the territory.
    And please dont use the argument that when you bought your house 20 years ago it wasn't like this, and that you are upset. Sorry, things progress! Big boats can make big noises. Get used to it, or move to some "quiet" place.
    D

  • G West

    3 years ago

    It's just a layman's opinion.

    But considerably more valid than some 'layman's' opinions - in this case at least.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Denis

    The story isn`t about noise,the story is about defective ferries that guzzle fuel and are vibrating themselves apart,they are sitting docked while our old BC built ferries are running fine.

    I could care less about the noise,Hahn could care less,BC ferries could care less,these Germon lemons are defective,that`s why they are sitting tied up! They are not tied up because their noisy.
    EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

  • Luke Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Denis...

    EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

  • doggone

    3 years ago

    I'd rather fly

    But if I need a vehicle on the other side I guess I'll just wait.
    We still trust that eventually a boat will come and we really do not care if it was built by NDP or Gordon
    We would appreciate that the vessel can achieve harbour to harbour

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Denis

    Sorry about being flippant,this latest story is only one in a series about these defective ferries,trust me,these ferries are sitting because they are falling apart!

    Anyways,no one gets a free ride,I have been silenced many times and the night is still young, perhaps you would feel more comfortable over at Gordon Campbell`s "open platform" This site is advertised all over the radio waves and print, Campbell describes the web site as BCs first and only open platform interactive web site! Campbell goes on to say "Your BC liberal team wants you to help us move forward,come visit the open platform and give us YOUR suggestions on how we and the BC Liberal team can keep BC strong now and for future generations" It must be a good site,considering we tax payers are spending millions advertising it!

    Here is the link

    http://www.bcliberals.com/EN/stop_the_smears/

    P.S. say hi to Luke Skywalker while your there

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Tyee

    Yes I deserve to be edited for personel insults and for baiting commenters,I also should be admonished for taking advantage of some posters!

    EDITED FOR SLAGGING,ABUSE,NASTINESS,MENTAL DEPRAVITY,

    Like I was saying the night is young.

    " To error is human to forgive is divine "

    And to all a good night!

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    quarry: they are =

    quarry: they are = they're;
    you are = you're.

  • NRF

    3 years ago

    Careful Doggone...

    Logical discussion is not what we expect here. Please pick a side for the argument and promote only that one. Decry other points of view and use ridicule and sarcasm whenever possible.

  • Fish-counter

    3 years ago

    Thanks for the responses guys.

    The Queen of the North had state-of-the-art navigation. How in hell did the two people who were supposed to be on duty fail to read the radar screen? Two passengers died for crying out loud and the two officers on board have said nothing. I rode the Queen of the North, six times and I still have the bathroom towels to prove it. I would gladly return them to BC Ferries in exchange for the publication of the facts of the sinking.

    When the facts are known, the speculation will cease. Until then, David Hahn is an accomplice to negligence causing the death of two passengers and the RCMP are guilty of failing to enforce the law of the land. They were, however enforcing the seat belt laws last week in Departure Bay, which is ironic.

    This makes about as much sense as the Death-by-Taser of Robert Dzeikanski. He was murdered for not speaking English in an international airport. No one at the terminal gave him any help whatsoever. The RCMP first said they had to take him down becuase there were other passengers in the vicinity. The video showed no one else anywhere nearby. They said he was drunk or on drugs; that was a lie. They say there is more to this than was on the videotape, which is exactly what they said about young Willow what's-her-name.

    The RCMP Taser people to death, then give drivers tickets for not wearing seat belts. Then they get away with blatant lying. Is it me or is this country going absolutely off the rails?

    Canada is getting a very bad reputation in the rest of the world. We have been nominated as the most obstructive country at a recent conference on global warming, we kill immigrants on arrival and the RCMP don't get the right man.

    How many BC Ferry workers attended the memorial services for the lost passengers?

    How many RCMP attended Robert Dzeikanski's funeral? None, but they were all in Mayerthorpe, weren't they? Canada's cops are throwing their weight about more and more every year. I have heard enough lies and b.s. from them to make me sick. Remember Giardelli, Canada's Top Cop? Last year he was telling lies so fast even he couldn't keep them straight.

  • stevie wonders

    3 years ago

    If we are to believe Mr. Franklin...

    If we are to believe Mr. Franklin and many of his neighbours, one would expect to hear howls of protest from Horseshoe Bay residents as well. Yet I haven't heard any.

    And the residents of this end of West Vancouver are not known for their political complacency, either. Remember Eagleridge Bluffs?

    Neither do we hear the same level of criticism targeting the makers and/or procurers of the Spirit class, so often sidelined due to technical problems related to their prop design, do we?

    While granting that there are teething pains with this new type of ferry, I wonder how much of this complaint is technically justified, and how much is simply anti-Liberal rhetoric.

  • RickW

    3 years ago

    Denis

    Quote:
    Sorry, things progress!

    See my post above. I guess you are the "et al" I referred to.

  • Fish-counter

    3 years ago

    Post script

    One of the reasons I am so infuriated by the wall of silence in the sinking of the Queen of the North is that I did sail on her and I did sleep in one of her cabins. I was awakened at 2:00 am by the sound of the ship's horn for a safety drill. I remember thinking that if the ship ever did run into trouble, escaping from those small cabins would be a tight squeeze. I recall the feeling of claustrophobia in the cabin, and can imagine only too well, the final moments of the drowning passengers.

    The debate over the relative merits of the new ferries may be fueled by politicial issues, but the truth about the sinking of the Queen of the North should not be buried at sea with the dead passengers.

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    'David Hahn is an accomplice

    'David Hahn is an accomplice to negligence causing the death of two passengers and the RCMP are guilty of failing to enforce the law of the land. They were, however enforcing the seat belt laws last week in Departure Bay, which is ironic.'
    oh how deep. such incredible irony! fyi it was the 2 negligent workers who caused those deaths, and the union has the audacity to protect them.
    'I wonder how much of this complaint is technically justified, and how much is simply anti-Liberal rhetoric.' all of it.

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    Sirjohna and his ilk

    Why is it that when these kinds of people are asked to respond to something they don't want to, that they just ignore it and switch to arguing something else? It's awfully hard to finish discussions with them. Anyone notice?

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Sirjohnna

    You may be correct,I never made the claim of an english major or junior for that matter, that whole I befor E except after C stuff confuses me. I don`t use spell ckekc(error intended) and I regularly confuse the toos(to) (too)

    I also regularly put you to(too) shame, I have enough class to trounce my on-line opponnets with a barage of verbalege and content, in laymens terms,as a old Wendy`s tv ad proclaimed " Where`s the beef"

    Indeed sirjohnna,where the hell is the meat on your bone of contention? Where,in the world of debate I speak,write,question and answere in full spectrum colour,while your STINGING REBUTTAL is, let me re-read it,I wouldn`t want to mis-quote your "pearl"

    Quarry:they are=

    quarry:they are=they`re
    you are=you`re

    Ya got me, YOU HAVE outed me,I am a closet mis-speller.

    I have sinned lord,please forgive me,my life of shame,guilt,a lifetime fear of public writing.I want to thank you Sirjohnna,you have lifted the weight from my shoulder by eposing my flaws.

    " Is this all we are,is there no more"

    "Do we need bleed when cut"

    I will take my seat,my natural place at the back of the bus,forgive me Tyee readers.

    "The shame I feel is the reflection of my soul in the eyes of people that stare me down"

    Quarry bay

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    all i need to do is to let

    all i need to do is to let you keep talking quarry. you are to the left what dion is to the libs.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Fish counter

    Once again, it was you that said the Queen of the North was a state-of-the-art ferry. Now you try to escape and deny all the information on the new ones by the comment "The debate over the relative merits of the new ferries may be fueled by politicial issues". It is not political issues, it is facts that have been presented. Some of us are not gullible sheep and your trying to change the subject to one of who alleged to be doing what on the bridge is just so much speculation. BC Ferries is looking for a scapegoat to hide the operations incompetence. The same kind of incompentence that bought two German Lemons at a cost of $552 million.

    That is not fueled by politics. Commons sense would have assumed that something be learned from Fast Ferries if they are as bad as claimed by the liberals and their media hacks. Instead they do an even worse job.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    Sirjohna

    Such a well argued rebuttal. I am impressed.

  • Fish-counter

    3 years ago

    Sirjohna:

    I realise that the two officers on the bridge of the Queen of the North are solely responsible for the deaths of the two passengers. Why then are they still free and have not even been charged with failure to discharge their duties?

    The third officer who was on duty was taking a legitimate lunch break. He cannot in my humble opinion, be held responsible, but somebody sure as hell is. You don't just lose a $50-million ship and pretend it was an oversight. Where is the principle of accountabilty? It is not good enough for David Hahn to impersonate Stonewall Jackson.

    The new ferries are much bigger than the ones for which the terminals were built and sited. The continued long term pounding being given to Cilaire Bluffs presents a real threat to the slope stability. I have walked along those bluffs and have photographed trees that were cut to improve the view. I am no geologist, but you don't need a Ph.D. to know when ground is susceptible to subsidence. This is not an aesthetic issue. It needs to be investigated by an independent expert, and soon. If there is a slope failure in Cilaire, it could be catastrophic. BC Ferries needs to think about their liability. Moving the big ferries to Duke Point would seem to be a no-brainer to me.

    One fish; two fish...

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    sky; why would i care to

    sky; why would i care to engage in serious debate with a bunch of revisionist historians? as for quarry; that guy is out of control and completely irrational. i'm suspecting he may have been 'deep forbidden lake' in another life.

  • Skywalker

    3 years ago

    SirJohna

    They pray tell, why are you here?

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    ????????

    Irrational? Hmmmmmmm

    Sirjohna .....You want to build a 10 to 40 billion dollar bridge over the georgia straight in 1000 feet of water with a muddy unstable bottom in a seismec active earthquake zone with 10s of thousands of large tankers and cruise ships,pleasure craft,sail boats plying the waters during storm force,even hurricane force winds and at times the straight is fogged in.

    Toll estimates are anywhere from 350 to 2000 dollars for a round trip over the bridge, not to mention the project which will never be done but if was attempted could possibly and probably suffer catastrophic failure during construction.

    And just how do you describe me " that guy is out of control and completely irrational."

    Sirjohna...I have nothing more to say.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Sirjohna

    You got company, in the long run,even the Alaskans came to their sense!

    http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2005/08/09/bridges/

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    sirjohna and his ilk..

    Not only do they ignore rational discussion and change the subject, but they also revert to insults and name-calling when backed against the wall.

    Quarry - what the heck does "deep forbidden lake in another life" mean? Is that a supreme insult or something?

    Good one sirjohna.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Thanks Sunshine

    No worries,I enjoy playing with Sirjohna.

    And of course Sirjohna can insult with impunity.

    Big boys don`t cry,anyways I have a nickname for Sirjohna as well.

    Sirjohna--AKA "next train"

    Figure that one out Sirjohna!

  • G West

    3 years ago

    sunshine coast girl

    'deep forbidden lake' harkens back to a time in the early days of Tyee when a poster by that name used to contend with the same poster who now calls herself sirjohna who was then, as she is now using exactly the same kind of childishness under a variety of names too numerous to mention.

    things like: Elliot, batman, robin and the like.

    Frank, having been around here much longer than I, could fill you in more completely.

    Actually it's not much worth bothering about.

  • sunshine coast girl

    3 years ago

    Thanks for clarifying G West

    but I won't bother, just as you suggest.

  • Latarnik

    3 years ago

    Old fast ferries

    Why don't we ask our beloved inventor Glen Clark to spend another billion dollars on a new fast and quiet ferries. New York bankers will love us for it. Do not forget to have a casinos aboard and a bingo under David Stupich, another homegrown expert.
    Lest we forget. Unfortunately public memory does not last more than 4 years, which is an average time between elections.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    NEW NAMES

    There are always a few souls who prefer to live in the past, continually harking back to ancient history and the 'fast ferries'.

    I think it's more than time to adopt an up-to-date slogan for the Campbell Government's current 'ferry fiasco'.

    I wonder if Tyee readers could come up with a new label for the current mess?

    Something along the lines of the ‘Hahn’s Teutonic Tubs’, or, as a friend has suggested, the "Foreign Ferries Fiasco."

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Latarnik

    Fast ferries were a decade ago, they didn`t cost anywhere near a billion dollars, THEY WERE BUILTIN BC --Which means wages and money trickled around the province,suppliers,manufactors made money and employed hundreds and hundreds of workers.
    No one here was defending fast ferries,one has nothing to do with the other,two wrongs don`t make a right.
    Why is it NEO-con Liberals(Campbell supporters) can never accept responsibility for anything,everything is always someone else`s fault, What a pathetic comment ---Lat__n_k

    Obviously the NDP infiltrated the German Shipyard and sabatoged the new defective ferries,the same NDPers are stealing food from children,all for the purpose of inflating the child poverty stats

    Some comments should be edited for being stupid.

  • Stump

    3 years ago

    name game

    Dave's Donnerboote Debacle

  • SharingIsGood

    3 years ago

    Foriegn Ferry Fiasco

    I like the name, Foreign Ferry Fiasco.
    Also, Campbell's Clunkers has a nice round sound to it - kind of reminiscent of Colonel Klink.

  • Fish-counter

    3 years ago

    Secret, twisted fantasy

    Imagine two Fast Cats going at full speed. One has Glen Clark crazy-glued to the steering wheel by eco-terrorists. The other has Gordon Campbell at the wheel, possibly a little bit intoxicated with his own press releases, but it is a misdemeanor because he is at sea and therefore technically out of the country.

    They are both going full speed towards one another, loaded with politicians on an eco-tour from Ottawa, paid for by fish farmers. The two vessels miss one another but collide with Newcastle Island which has viciously position moved the previous night.

    The boats are sinking. The politicians are feverishly trying to free themselves from bondage. Instead they are firmly locked in place by their political ideals.

    A crew of Coast Guard divers stands by as the vessels go down. They are not certified for diving in and around wrecks, so they have to sit there doing nothing as the occupants drown very, very slowly.

    A BC ferry stands by, loaded with passengers who are jeering at the apparent callousness of the skipper of the Zodiac who will not allow the divers into the water.

    An RCMP officer onshore is watching the ships go down as he writes a ticket to a passing motorist for not wearing his seatbelt.

    This feels very familiar. Then the alarm goes off and you realise you were half asleep, confusing real stories with twisted dreams. Oh well, nothing is perfect. If only getting rid of the Fast Cats was that easy!

  • G West

    3 years ago

    My fantasy

    Has Gordon at the helm of one C-class Tub and Hahn driving the other; both of them so enamored of their own reflection in a mirror held up for each of them by one of the Premier's devoted female deputies that instead of colliding at speed, the two boats simply nuzzle each other vibrate themselves into bit all the while a federal tax collector pleads for the excise tax still due and payable on the two tubs and their sister ship - which is bringing up the rear with Kevin Falcon at the wheel....holding his own mirror.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    errata

    should be "'vibrating' themselves into bits"

  • SharingIsGood

    3 years ago

    the excise tax still due and payable!

    Is this true, GWest? I guess they want to saddle the NDP with tons of debt like the Socriberals did before got voted out the last time. The NDP will be stuck fixing everything again, and balancing the budget again - even with all of the P3s coming due; and the cleptocratic Socriberals, together with the MSM and the Fraser Institute, will hammer away at the NDP. They will say they are poor managers and the government needs to be more right wing with more of the private sector running everything. Perhaps they will find another neighbour helping a neighbour building a deck that they can hold up as the example of all that is wrong with the NDP. What a bunch of BS!

    Truth be known, I was for the Federal Liberals before Turner was turfed by Mulroney and then replaced by Cretien who followed through with NAFTA. I believed the Socred lies until I watched the workers of the province nearly shut the whole place down under Bennett. I started getting involved and I have been NDP ever since, my conscience is clear. Sure there have been a few bad eggs in the NDP, but the platform and the vision of the NDP is a good one. It is one that would have us do on to others as we would have others do unto ourselves.

    This province and this country has plenty for all to enjoy a descent life, yet the wealth is going to the already wealthy and to the multinational corporations instead of the people who are actually doing the work. The vast majority of citizens are willing to work hard while we make sure that kids have safe and properly funded schools, sick people get health care, old people are able to rest worry-free, everyone has a safe and warm place to sleep and all have food in their bellies.

  • RickW

    3 years ago

    Campbell's Crooks and Cutthroats....

    ....or Triple "C", would be more inclusive of ALL the 'shenanigans' he and his ilk have inflicted on this province.....

  • G West

    3 years ago

    As far as I know

    I'm sure it's one of the things the Premier has on his agenda for his little tete a tete with Pee Wee.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    The excise tax

    The tax was dropped for the replacement to the queen of the north, the tax owing on the the other german lemons is due and owing.

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    Fun with names

    Gordo's gold-plated German galleons?
    Dave's Deutsch disasters?
    Falcon's Flensburger Ferry fiasco?

    Harper's hamburgers.... oh wait, wrong government.

    This fiasco kind of reminds me of the US Navy's DDX destroyer built with a tumblehome hull. Didn't work worth shit in sea trials, but it took an act of Congress to stop spending billions on it.

    Wish we had a Congress....

    By the way, love that suggestion to use them to house the cops for the Olympics, Quarry bay. Wake them up every morning by firing the engines up. And put the reporters on the second one.

    Hmmm... I sense the beginnings of an April Fools' article coming up...

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    sirjohna

    I recommend a name change. How about "myron baloney"? Truth in advertising, for once...

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    such fun with names! what

    such fun with names! what would we do without the tyee and it's astute pundits. no wonder the left is locked out of power in most of canada au courant.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    More fun with words

    au courant - Informed on current affairs; up-to-date.
    Fully familiar; knowledgeable.

    I'm not sure that was the term you were grasping for El.

    I think you meant 'at the present time' or 'currently'.

    Care to try again.

    But, rest assured, things change and events move along. Let's talk next May 13. okay?

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    how stunning of you

    how stunning of you alcibiades. you've been putting in some awful long shifts lately.

  • G West

    3 years ago

    Only two names El

    For very good and clearly spelled out reasons - which, once again, I'm happy to point out for anyone who's interested:
    http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/

    Maybe you could tell us why you've used close to 10 different names?

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    shall i let all the

    shall i let all the newcomers know how you supported your arguments with an alias but were allowed to continue to post anyway? how could you not be on staff?

  • G West

    3 years ago

    I think they can read

    I've never had anything to hide and both G West and Alcibiades said exactly the same thing and promoted the same point of view - the reason for that is clearly spelled out in the link I posted. Furthermore, if you've actually read the rules you know that old refrain is as obsolete as the first time you wrote it.

    Anyone who cares to read the comments in the archives here will also find out just how many names you've used El, starting long before G West ever registered at Tyee.

    As for being on staff, that's an offensive comment and I've just flagged it as such.

  • quarry bay

    3 years ago

    Sirjohna

    At least some(most)of us have a definable point of veiw,all you are capable of is a short,nasty,snippet, at least Luke puts a little thought into it and posts links.

    The three levels of right(wrong) sided posters.

    Luke....c-

    Rman....d-

    Sirjohna...Snail`s belly

  • sirjohna

    3 years ago

    alcbiades

    i'd take the staff remard as a compliment. otherwise it means you spend most of the day here b/c you have nothing else to do.

  • alive

    3 years ago

    About naming those oil guzzlers

    Why not play on the
    "Fast Ferries" moniker and call them : "The Fat Ferries"?

    Fat as in consuming too much?

    Maybe throw in a reference to the German builders and say:

    "Das Fat Ferry" ?

  • zalm

    3 years ago

    Bwaahahahahaaaaa!

    Or get a little more German on them: "Das Fattische Faerry"? "Das Hofbrau Boot"? Big belly, lots of noise, not much action.

    And at the top of the hills down into Horseshoe Bay and Departure Bay, "Dis way to d'Färry Fährt" (bastardized English-German sign I saw once in Basel)

    Hmmm.... sucks back fuel at an amazing rate, big and strong.... I know! Let's call it "The Ahnold". Es macht Benzin fressen.

    Oder "Das Grosse Ahnold" seit sie Deutsch lieber.

    What's that Spanish lottery called? El Gordo - the Fat One? Anybody getting any ideas?

    Or just call it "Das Boot" and use them for torpedo practice. Come to think of it, why didn't they use the FastCats for torpedo practice at Nanoose Bay? Sell 'em to the Canadian Navy and use them to see if they can outrun the current class of torpedos.

    Or sell them to a suicidal group to use as delivery systems to harbours around the world , and then sell the Canadian Navy as an anti-terrorist squad to the same crew of misfits.

    I tell you, Gordo didn't even TRY to sell these Fastcats. And I bet he won't try to sell the Coastals either, no matter what it costs to run them.

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