Every Year

Every Year when the Premier's portfolio is announced, we hear the same talk. I remember a few years ago it was Gordon Campbell owns CN Rail. Earlier this year it was Alcan - well I've got news for you - I own Alcan and CN Rail shares. Half of the investors in this country do. In fact, if you own any mutual funds or RRSP investments, you likely own a little piece yourself.

Mr. Campbell, for another time, does not know what is in his portfolio. It is a "blind" portflio managed by some stock guru at PHN.

Lets go fishing up other rivers for conspiracy theories. Campbell has far too much too lose by insider trading - on the whopping 80 Alcan Shares he owns.....

And clearly, "80 shares" - even if he bought low and sold high - he'd have made $1,000. Not really worth the effort.

How cathartic ....

We must throw these oft - chewed bones to the Lefties so they can get a RANT -on !!!
How Cathartic.

Gee, almost 1/2 our own City Council are PUBLIC Sector employees. Gee ? Lets really go on a roll regarding cross- pollinated undue influence/conflict of interest.

Gee, Cap...good point, but how about all the Companies we owned or used to own as Citizens.....Petro Canada...oh no our BC Hydro shares ...my ICBC shares et al.

Let's see...Carol James and MLA crew have no such similar conflict...they grow their own vegetables at home, take transit or bike to work...and not a nickle(or is it RED cent?)invested in the stock market. As MLA's themselves, privy to all sorts of information, aren't the NDP MLA's as much an "insider" as Campbell's crew?

DEEPER and far more comprehensive disclosure beckons.

Let's put this in perspective...but then again we will miss the ranting, won't we ?

The present stock and money

The present stock and money markets are the biggest cause of environmental destruction and curse on humanity.

I have been a business owner for 50 years, but the only outside stocks I ever owned were the 5 whatever shares given out by Bill Bennett.

Owning ICBC shares, as citizens, is not the same as owning speculative, jerk shares, designed to exploit, rob and steal. In any other province, with a perfectly clean 52 year driving record in BC, I would have to pay 10 times my present rates and so would tens of thousands of British Columbians.

Private enterprise and these legalized criminals are totally different concepts.

How about this, you righties?

Ed Deak.

In a previous post

As I stated in a previous post, if we really wanted to reduce auto emissions, we had to build a minimum of 'rail' transit, to create a viable transportation alternative to the car. That Campbell and his minions utterly refuse to even look at this and instead build the $4.5 billion 'Gateway' (we could build 300 km. of LRT for the same cost) projects shows his 'real' concern for the environment. He has none, just listen to his Lil bro. on CORUS.

Campbell, like Harper, jumped on the 'Green' and 'environment' band wagons because polling told their handlers that the public wanted environmental concerns addressed. They don't have a clue! Nor do they care as long as the 'sheep' oh I mean the electorate, vote their way.

Is it so hard to remember:

Is it so hard to remember: "Do as I say, not as I do!"
There is obviously different standards for different folks.
And I got news for you Capp etc. most people do not own shares ...period.
It may be hard for you to comprehend that food and accomodation eats every penny most folks earn on their part-time jobs.

Cappy

I'm very glad you're not the premier. Gordon Campbell is a big enough disaster.

Maybe we could hear your thoughts on the civilizing effects of sweat-shops now?

Quote:Private enterprise and

How about this, you righties?

Ah, Ed, these right-whiners don't believe in free enterprise, they believe in the state-supported enterprise called corporate capitalism. Of course, when the state on occasion does something for the ordinary person, like provide health care or UI, that is socialism and therefore a bad thing. Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor!

Mr. Deak

I always appreciate your posts. Certainly a cynical point of view, but you always manage to balance your cynicism with a dose of reality.

Unlike many of the lefties on this board, you recognize the accomplishments of Campbell, etc. - you just don't see them as accomplishments. You see them as destructive.

I have no problems with that. Taking obvious information and forming an opinion on that. It is the loonies that are oblivious to facts, refuse to recognize that there is economic growth - that tax cuts do indeed stimulate the economy - that really bother me.

You are right - where you see growth - you see environmental erosion. I also agree with much of your insight on money supply. I believe that many of the central banks are setting us up for a real disaster. Though, I believe Canada is doing a fairly good job. We have fiscally responsible leadership at all levels, we are paying down debt and have decent commodity reserves.

I'd engage in a deeper discussion about this. Though, you and I both know that discussion re. central banks currency fixing and monetary supply practices is far too complicated to sum up in a couple of paragrahs. I'd spend half the day writing one post.

Garth

It's all part of industrialization, which doesn't make it right. We wouldn't be where we are today if it weren't for factory workers in the U.K. in the 1500s. I've been fortunate enough to visit many countries, and believe me when I say that the "sweat shops" you speak of, generally, are the best in town.

In fact, these people are the best paid in town. Its ugly, though its reality.

All righty then, let's hear your thoughts on this:

Lives Held Cheap in Bangladesh Sweatshops
By BARRY BEARAK
The fire in the garment factory began on the fourth floor, where polo shirts, neatly folded in boxes, made a fine feast for the hungry flames. The 1,250 workers scampered for their lives, most of them hurrying to the stairway that led to the main exit. There, at the bottom, was a folding gate. It was locked.

In panic, the trapped people spun around, rushing back up the steps, colliding with those coming down. It was night. The lights had gone out. Some workers squeezed through windows, shimmying down an outside pipe or chancing a desperate leap.

The rest were caught in a human knot on the dark stairs, arms pushing, mouths screaming, hearts pounding. Some people fell and were trampled. That is how nearly all of the fire's 52 victims died, their final breaths stomped out of them on the hard concrete of the teeming steps. Most were young women. Ten were children.

What Bangladesh has to offer the global economy is some of the world's cheapest labor -- and what this impoverished nation has received in return is the economic boost of a $4.3 billion apparel industry, the fuller pockets that come with 1.5 million jobs and the horrors that arise from 3,300 inadequately regulated garment factories, some of which are among the worst sweatshops ever to taunt the human conscience.

''We still suffer from the legacy of the colonial days,'' said one factory owner, Muhammad Saidur Rehman. ''We consider the workers to be our slaves, and this belief is made all the easier by a supply of labor that is endlessly abundant.''

For the most part, it is the wretched of the earth who do the world's tailoring. Made in Bangladesh competes with Made in Honduras, Made in the Philippines, Made in Macao, Made in Any Steamy Reservoir of Third World Unemployment: those places where plentiful labor lacks the leverage to command high pay, and the most pitiful thing about the jobs is how hard it is to get them.

Last November's fire at Chowdhury Knitwears interrupted a frantic production schedule. Finished sportswear was due at stores in Britain. The workers, used to a 12-hour day, were ordered to toil as long as 18. They were given a lunch break at 1 p.m., then a shorter breather at 10 p.m., when each received a piece of bread and a banana.

Holidays, mandated by law, were a myth at the Chowdhury factory, said dozens of employees. People were expected to work virtually every day of the year. Overtime pay, another legal requirement, was also a myth. Most wages ranged from $25 to $50 a month -- or as little as 6 cents an hour. Children earned less.

''When we'd complain, they'd lock the gates so we couldn't get out,'' said Aleya Begum, a sewing machine operator here on the outskirts of Narsingdi, 35 miles northeast of Dhaka, the capital. ''If someone complained too much, they were fired.''

Those long hours had never included a fire drill. And, in the days after the blaze, outraged politicians demanded accountability for the senseless deaths. They decried the garment industry's callous disregard for safety and lamented the government's listlessness in making inspections. Cabinet ministers comforted the hospitalized. The prime minister offered condolences, praying that each of the departed souls would enjoy a peaceful hereafter.

Such hand wringing in a fire's aftermath is by now a studied ritual. Bangladesh's garment industry is barely 15 years old, but the business has grown so rapidly that it accounts for 76 percent of the nation's exports. The number of manufacturers continues to multiply, as do the recurring nightmares: the flames, the locked doors, the frenzied stampedes, the mourning. Since 1995, there have been 30 of these fires, with 17 involving fatalities, according to one labor group that has maintained a list.

Factories are often makeshift enterprises, many of them in the rented upper floors of Dhaka's decrepit downtown buildings. Workers trudge up the narrow stairs, ready to stitch bright fabric beneath the whirling bobbins. Electrical wiring is frequently a jangle of overloaded circuits.

The posttragedy ritual is not a prolonged one, however. Reports of investigators are expediently moved along the bureaucracy's chain of command and then into oblivion. Accountability, so keenly demanded at first, is never quite determined at last.

One more tangible result is a short period of haggling. Bereaved families expect compensation for lost loved ones. After the Chowdhury fire, the factory's workers staged protest marches and were joined by thousands of sympathizers.

The basic demand was 200,000 taka per victim, about $3,700. That was far beyond the usual recompense. But then this had been an especially shocking tragedy.

Upset by the catastrophe and alarmed by bad publicity, leaders of the powerful manufacturing associations met and decided to chip in, adding a sum to the Chowdhury factory's own contribution. Together, they pledged a death benefit they deemed generous: about $1,945.

Nannu Mia, a survivor of the Nov. 25 fire, had helped organize the workers' protests. ''Maybe this was a mistake,'' he said recently, permitting himself an anguished moment of reflection. ''Maybe I should have licked their boots instead.''

For him, the protests have proved regrettable. Among the workers' demands was a swift reopening of the factory. While this did occur only 44 days after the fire, Mr. Mia was not welcomed back. He said that being an agitator cost him his job.

At Chowdhury Knitwears, the hours may be a strain and the wages a heartache. But almost anyone will say that even a dreadful job is better than none.

A Place Rich in Cheap Labor

The apparel business is a very tough dollar, with profit margins figured to the fraction of a penny. The actual sewing of a shirt is but a tiny part of the final pricing, which must account for cloth, cutting, dyes, packaging, freight, duties, warehousing, advertising, floor space and salespeople.

Consumers want bargains. So retailers try to wrench lower prices from suppliers, who in turn want the clothes stitched at the lowest possible cost. For a poor nation, rich only in cheap labor, the garment industry is a well-trod pathway into the global marketplace.

Bangladesh has a population of 131 million -- about half that of the United States -- all packed into a country slightly smaller than Iowa.

Its garment workers take home an average monthly wage of $35 for women and $40 for men, according to Rita Afsar, of the Bangladesh Institute for Development Studies. Those earnings are about 25 percent higher than the nation's per capita income.

In the Narsingdi area, with a population of about 3 million, Chowdhury Knitwears is one of the few major factories. Virtually all employees returned to the whitewashed four-story building after the fire. Orders for polo shirts were still unfilled. Fabric in colors with fancy names -- rust, midnight, shadow green, putty, orange peel, brilliant blue -- was piled on tables.

The building looked much as always, but important changes had been made. Smoke alarms were installed. Thin pipes ran along the ceiling. Excessive heat, detected by a temperature gauge, would automatically trigger a defending spray of water.

This new safety equipment cost nearly $20,000, complained Tanveer Chowdhury, known as Sagar, the managing director of his family's business. A heavy-set man, he was seated in a first-floor office, nervously fingering the gold chain around his neck. He expressed no regret about the loss of life. But he did have more complaints to make.

''This fire has cost me $586,373,'' he said. ''And that doesn't include $70,000 for machinery and around $20,000 for furniture. I had made commitments to meet deadlines, and I still have those deadlines. I am now paying for air freight at $10 a dozen when I should be shipping by sea at 87 cents a dozen. That means I am paying . . .'' He pecked at a calculator with his right index finger. ''. . . 12 times the shipping price.''

Mr. Chowdhury was not there the day of the inferno, but his brother Shamim had not only been present, he also tried to fight the flames. The fire had begun with a spark from an electrical spot gun, used to spray stain remover on soiled merchandise. The blaze then spread to a can of flammable liquid, and a fireball took off.

A try was made at smothering the flames with shirts. Then a fire extinguisher was unlatched, but it malfunctioned, painfully discharging its contents into Shamim's face.

Sagar Chowdhury, 34, described the scene, then woefully shook his head. ''When everything is O.K., this business is very good,'' he said. ''Now it is not good.''

The family also owns a towel factory, which exports exclusively to America, he said. Three years ago, they expanded into knitwear because ''the money is better.''

Mr. Chowdhury boastfully returned to his world of numbers, saying that in a good year the business netted $1 million. Less happily, he disputed what his employees had reported about their wages. He said while some did earn as little as the equivalent of $22 a month, others made as much as $74. He said he paid double for overtime. Then, with closer questioning, he grew huffy and distracted.

But he did confide the gist of his ample experience. ''Knitwear is a headache business,'' he said, flicking one hand as if to slap something away. ''Headaches with quality, size, color, everything.''

A beleaguered businessman, Mr. Chowdhury rubbed his forehead as if this might make the aching go away.

'Good Order' to 'No Order'

Bangladesh's garment factories run the gamut. Some seem models of progressive management, with health clinics, day care centers and brightly lighted lunch rooms. Workers wear surgical masks to screen out fibers in the air, and shiny red fire extinguishers hug the walls at regular intervals. Other factories are bleak, stuffy places with cramped aisles that dead-end into haphazard knolls of fabric. Guards are stationed at locked gates, and fire prevention largely consists of empty red water pails.

To export, a factory owner must be a member of one of the nation's three textile associations. These groups then have great power. And from time to time, their leaders discuss whether they have some duty to use this clout to improve working conditions.

''Inhuman things do go on, and it's horrible, horrible,'' said Kutubuddin Ahmed, the newly elected president of the Bangladesh Garment Manufacturers and Exporters Association, the biggest of the three. ''That Chowdhury fire business, this was horrible.''

Mr. Ahmed said that perhaps the time had come for rigorous inspections, to find out what factories were in ''good order, semi-order and no order,'' and that the worst of the lot might face a suspension of their export privileges. ''But we don't want to threaten our members or create a panic,'' he added in afterthought, cautiously moderating his zeal.

Do-gooders here are suspected of shallow thinking. Panic -- as well as American naïveté -- is widely blamed for a misguided rescue of working children. In 1993, after news media exposés about Bangladesh's garment factories, Senator Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa, introduced a bill to ban products made with child labor.

Frightened employers impulsively fired tens of thousands of children under the age of 14. By and large, this was not any great setback to the bosses. Very often, they had hired the children as a favor to woebegone parents. Within the next few years, as the Harkin bill became law, about 10,000 of the children ended up in special schools created by Unicef. But most others simply found more dangerous and less lucrative work -- breaking rocks, rolling cigarettes, pulling rickshaws.

''There's no such thing as an unmixed blessing,'' said Roushan Jahan, an author of a book about garment workers. ''Progress leaves loopholes. A lot is left to the factory owner's good will, and there is a great deal of curdling in the milk of human kindness.''

So what can be done? If manufacturing groups are hesitant to act, if government inspectors are easily bribed, if labor unions are yet to find a foothold, if human consciences are easily held in abeyance, what can make an owner improve conditions?

Recently, the biggest force for reform has come from big retailers worried about the bottom line. Some, like Gap and Wal-Mart, were embarrassingly linked to third world sweatshops and are now rehabilitating their image. Others fear similar scandals that might make softhearted customers feel guiltily attired.

Some major companies now issue codes of conduct and send inspectors into their suppliers' factories to enforce the rules, counting fire exits and auditing overtime records.

These controls are imperfect and a few critics even deride them as farce. And they do not greatly inflate the pay. At Shanta Apparel Ltd. in Dhaka, which has manufactured goods for Tommy Hilfiger, J. C. Penney and Gap, an average employee earns $42 a month, the manager said. But the factory supplies its workers with purified water, clean bathrooms and a doctor on the premises. Doors stay unlocked. There are fire exits.

''That's the wave of the future, buyers who order you to put in two more toilets and place more space between the machines,'' said Monjural Hoq, president of one of the other manufacturing associations. ''That's all fine, as long as they pay us more to get it.''

An Uncertain Future

Most factories do not work with the major stores, however. And in Bangladesh there is motivation for owners to gobble up maximum profits before it is too late.

For all the garment industry's success, its future hangs by a thread. Nearly half the exports go to America, where a quota system on imported clothes has favored Bangladesh, limiting some of its biggest competitors to a smaller share of the United States market.

But those quotas expire on Jan. 1, 2005.

After that, the lure of cheap labor may not be enough. Other circumstances make Bangladesh a less practical supplier. Power outages are epidemic. Floods wash away roads. The port is overwhelmed. More important, raw materials for manufacturing need to be brought in at added expense.

Without quota restrictions, China and India, which grow their own cotton, are likely to capture far more of the business from the United States.

And many poor Bangladeshis -- suddenly jobless -- will find themselves poorer still.

Two-thirds of the garment workers are women. With Bangladesh being a conservative Muslim country, a factory job is one of the few socially acceptable ways for a woman to earn a living. In Dhaka, most of them live in mammoth slums that while deplorable for their squalor are notable for being less squalid than others.

Around Narsingdi, workers are more likely to live in villages with the open air, ripening jackfruit and the moist green of rice paddies. Four months after the fire, the area still seems contaminated by despair. Families have yet to adjust fully to rearrangements, with newly orphaned children handed back and forth.

Most any villager can lead a sorrowful tour. One stop was a bamboo hut, where a 14-year-old named Parina was sitting outside on a stool. Her brother Alauddin, who was 12, had died in the fire, she said. The family badly misses the $11 he earned each month, but they have nevertheless kept another son, 13-year-old Jalaluddin, from returning to Chowdhury Knitwears. ''He switched to a brick kiln,'' Parina said.

Khodeza Begum has three surviving children, but none yet old enough to replace her son Zakir, 15, who had been the family's only breadwinner. ''After the fire, all the bodies were laid out in a row,'' she said, cupping a small photograph of the boy. ''When I saw his face I fainted.''

Rashida Begum, 18, a fragile-looking woman who has returned to the factory though an injured right hip prevents her from walking easily, was living nearby. She was trampled as she attempted to escape the fire and remembers a rampage of feet on her before she lost consciousness. ''My mistake was that I fell,'' she said glumly.

Abdul Qader Mullah, a skilled mechanic, is a muscular young man. People think he is important to meet because of the awful twist to his story. He bravely stayed behind to fight the fire, finally lowering himself from the roof with a cable. But by the time he escaped, his younger brother had been killed, re-entering the building to look for him.

''His body was so terribly burned up I only recognized him from his belt buckle,'' Mr. Mullah said. ''One of our friends, Liton, he also died after going back into the fire. He had been paid that day and left his money in his other pants.''

The surviving families are separated by a peculiar financial distinction. Only 39 of the 52 victims are officially confirmed dead, with their bodies having undergone an autopsy. Other families either refused to allow the post-mortem, thinking it an indignity, or buried their loved ones too hastily. They have been denied the $1,945 compensation.

''Thirty-nine confirmed dead, that's the official figure,'' said Dr. Atiqul Sarwar, head of a nearby hospital and a member of the government-appointed committee that investigated the fire.

''The blame,'' he continued, ''was actually due to management. There was a minimum of fire extinguishers. Workers were locked in. The emergency exit was itself a danger. It was too steep, sloping almost straight down.''

Oddly, and inappropriately, the doctor cracked a smile. He knew this made him appear unfeeling and he apologized. But he was recalling a friendly disagreement with the committee's chairman -- and enough time had now passed to prove him right.

In Bangladesh, life, like labor, is cheap, Dr. Sarwar explained. He had insisted their investigation would be a waste of time; the other man said no. ''I told the chairman we'd accomplish nothing. I told him, 'Relax, relax, just relax. The hue and cry lasts only awhile. And then it means nothing.' ''

Made in Squalor

Garth

Don't do that - you just ruined a perfectly good board. Nobody is going to scroll through that. Next time just give a link to an article. I'm not going to read it anyway.

Maybe they'll actually read it

And learn something. I know you won't. Instead of listening to your cheerleading for the joys and rewards of corporate capitalism.

By the way, it's from the New York Times - originally published April 15, 2001.

Not the product of some left-wing socialist journal...just so you couldn't pull out your usual disclaimer.

It is a good thread now!

Grumpy:

Good, you got my point...

Let's focus on the bigger issues...versus this stock portfolio pablum. I have gone on record as saying the RAV Line is a scam...regardless of the Gov't in power.

I have also said The Olympics is a scam, regardless of the Gov't in power.

Did ex -PM Paul Martin sell his Shipping Holdings or any others while in office? ...Lord knows his LIEBERAL Gov't made decisions affecting things like WATER (both fresh and Salt water) and FUEL prices...and TAXES... and Employment standards ?

Is that why he got his ass kicked ?

Now, back to our regular programming.

PS G 'ster ...you should get a sh!te -load of Canadian Tire money for your cathartic venting above...OY VEY !!!!

another joke of an article

another joke of an article from the tyee. typical blather, as usual. i guess if you're a lefty these days desperate times call for desperate measures.

Oil & Gas Shares

People who can afford to buy stock, generally do. It is no surprise to me that the Premier has Oil & Gas industry stocks.

Many people do.

And that is why it will be very hard to turn away from oil & gas stocks, oil use and profit taking while there is still oil somewhere in the ground.

That is why recent events and reports will only result in mostly 'greenspeak' and 'greenwash'. Oil and gas companies have been doing it for years!!!!!!!!!!

I knew an environmentalist once who had stocks in what is now Encana (oil * gas company used to be Alberta Energy). He said by owning stock he had the right to speak at shareholders meeting to try and influence business decisions.

David Suzuki owns or has more than one home so .............................

How quick to brush off

It makes my heart warm to see how quickly the Campbell fans brush off any hypocrisy shown by these sanctimonious folks in Victoria. Now if any other party did anything like that they would howl and probably drag in visions of Russia or North Korea.

It is almost laughable how gullible the electorate is with Campbell's suddenly going green. Everything is OK as long as it is in the interests of improving you investment and let everyone else bear the brunt (extra cost) of greening BC. If you don't have an oil stocks you must grow your own vegies...such a pathetic response.

I guess the only people fit to govern are the biggest rich scam artists we can find.

Oil and Gas Shares

No support for Campbell and most of his policies in my corner, but I do think this rooting around for a story in his investment portfolio is pretty shallow journalism. If you can find a definite link to legislation he brings in and some insider trading, then expose it. But musing about what might be and could be serves no useful purpose. It's on a par with the well-thought out and probing questions Billy Buffoon asks over at 'NW (i.e. "what kind of car do you drive, Mr. Premier?")

No doubt if Campbell had switched his investments to green technology, there would be braying that he did it because he knew he was going to bring in legislation mandating green technology in BC.

Capitalism

FYI I scrolled thru GW's story. It was a good read. I feel sorry for you, for you seem to lack the compassion and empathy required to act in a humane manner.
How unfortunate that you apparently have no conscience. Eventually it will bite you in the a**. What goes around comes around.

In my opinion, all Campbell and Harper are capable of is 'greenwash'. Their abrupt turn around has less to do with actual concern about global warming and the environment and everything to do with concern for their ratings in the polls. They are doing a fine show of making it look like they are concerned, but actually putting OUR money where their mouth is is an entirely different thing. We'll know it when we see it, but I highly doubt we'll see any real action from either of them.

They. like Capitalism, are far more concerned with their own pocketbooks than the welfare of their constituents.

Who's an apologist ? I just

Who's an apologist ?

I just heard that the CURRENT , I repeat CURRENT, (one more time C-U-R-R-E-N-T) BC Provincial Gov't wants to expand gambling elsewhere by allowing more destination Casino Resorts on par with Richmond's RiverRock.

In a recent article just this past week a PROVINCE columnist listed various jurisdictions and their police (ie either their own City Police vs RCMP ) "case closure" data. Richmond police , ie RCMP was apparently THE worst ,approx. only a 12 % success rate in solving many crimes .

Crime at the RiverRock casino(murder, robbery, loan sharking..money laundering etc etc. )....predicted YEARS ago...

Richmond now cries for 10 more police.

Huh?

The real OVERALL success rate is probably much LOWER if one includes UNreported crime, itself encouraged by an often useless and dysfunctional "law and order" Justice system. ( It also oozed out Re: current Pickton Trail the the Vancouver gendarme' had a bad computer system which may have resulted in more Pickton victims).

Now given Expanded Gambling in the form of "domestic mini - Vegas's" ala local Gambling destination resorts, what are the NEW odds they will locate these casinos next to RAV / Canada /SkyTrain line...the die was cast at the RiverRock model .

Perhaps this will add grease to any all currently resistant skids for each Local Gov't to accept the RAV white elephant.

" Look at the peripheral benefits of RAV expanded into YOUR City...aka Ca$$$ino!!! "

The literal and figurative minute RiverRock opened , Richmond Council obligated its taxpayers ie put them on the hook for a $200 Million dollar Olympic Oval...and instantly dedicated $50 MILLION of its share of casino revenue for the next 10 years towards this Olympic white elephant. What a bloody coincidence eh?

ie Richmond obtains approx. $10 MILLION per year of IT'S share of local Casino revenue, and gives HALF ($5 MILLION per year of Casino funds towards the Olympic Oval ).

Things like a SOCIAL HOUSING fund could have been established , and subsequently social housing built,... or any other far more necessary need,...instead of this glorified skating rink .

As the plot thickens...it's these types of issues the public should focus on(...not nickle and dime BS...), but the Bigger picture and connecting the dots. This "RAV and Casino" issue is just one example of this , and how it may affect each of our communities.

However the currently cackling BC NDP have a lot to answer for on this gambling issue too, how soon THEY forget.

Watch this one unfold...

Cappy and facts

“Taking obvious information and forming an opinion on that. It is the loonies that are oblivious to facts, refuse to recognize that there is economic growth - that tax cuts do indeed stimulate the economy - that really bother me.”

Interesting statement cappy. I don’t remember you ever acknowledging fact*. Also, no one here has ever denied that in B.C., we’re experiencing ‘economic growth’. It’s just that most people who post here question the so-called benefits of economic growth. Ed’s posts have certainly made me question the merits of economic growth – I’m starting to see the stats behind this growth as a bit of a sham. Also, it’s not that we don’t recognize that “tax cuts do indeed stimulate the economy”. It’s just that most here believe that’s a lie. I’ll grant you that tax cuts to the rich may stimulate investment but the benefits of tax cuts are rarely felt by the majority of society – just because the Vancouver Sun says so, doesn’t make it true.

“We have fiscally responsible leadership at all levels, we are paying down debt and have decent commodity reserves.”

Last I heard, the debt in B.C. is set to grow….again!

“I'd engage in a deeper discussion about this.”

No you wouldn’t, because once people start blasting you regarding your ‘facts’ and countering your arguments with logic, you seem to do a disappearing act – see the BC Health Spending thread.

*Do you ever intend on acknowledging negative externalities in your economic analyses? Or perhaps acknowledge skyrocketing personal debt when you go on about how everyone is benefiting from your so-call economic growth?

Response

"FYI I scrolled thru GW's story. It was a good read. I feel sorry for you, for you seem to lack the compassion and empathy required to act in a humane manner."

I am not heartless. It is ugly. I've already seen all sorts of stuff on this topic. I don't need to read one of Gavin's articles.

It is terrible. All I am saying is that terrible is relative. It doesn't make it right, but as ugly as this is - the third world is uglier. I encourage you to travel to India or Africa. You'll be blown away.

There is a reason why you actually need connections to work at these "sweat shops". They are the best jobs in town.

It is all part of human evolution. You take away these sweat shops, and you are condemining millions to a life of extreme poverty - as opposed to poverty. On this flip side, if you impose north american working standards - you lose the economies of scale. Nike brings the manufacturing closer to home - the factory goes Poof!

You people need to start dealing in realities, not ideologies.

Relativity, ala Einstein.....

Objective question is...

" What kind of work were they engaged in PRIOR to the existence of sweatshops ? "

We are now entering the relativity arguments.

PS Go for it, I have a lot of expanded discussion at the ready.

That's no response at all Capitalism

And you know it. If you actually did know anything about the situation in countries like Bangladesh and in many parts of Africa, you'd be aware that the folks who are the slaves of global commerce in sweatshops once were very successful farmers before agricultural subsidies in Europe and America (including Canada) and country of origin Aid rules made their situation as farmers impossible. Why do you think there are tortilla riots taking place in Mexico over the price of corn?

To pretend, after a frenzied race to the bottom for industry in the First world, compounded by a mad search for shareholder value by transferring manufacturing to countries already reeling from our inability to compete with those economies as producers of agriculture, textiles and other basic commodities is a solution to anything is just nonsense.

This is a race to the bottom and the richest 10% of the slaveholders are getting richer. And that’s what international globalized corporations are. This is not a case of a rising tide lifting all boats. It's simply a case of the 90% of the world's population treading water until they finally realize who the real criminals are.

Even Bill Gates doesn't really get it. And his facile little announcement with Harper yesterday was no different than Paul Martin's empty promises to Bono at St Andrew's.

You, and your system are both marked men Cappy. Change, or be over-run by forces you can't seem to comprehend. I don't know if it will be global warming or an alcoholic burnout one day in Vegas, but one way or the other, you and this system are creatures of the past. The only question now is whether or not you'll take the rest of us down with you.

No one is fooled by Gordon Campbell, any more than they are by you....

Excellent G. West

At the risk of being branded a leftie by Cappy and his ilk who will never really get it, Well said G West!

Oil & Gas Shares

To those who argue that Oil & Gas shares are legal, that others own them, that Gordo only made a few bucks, that Gordo holds them in a blind trust, blah, blah, blah:

Q: If Gordo held some shares to an internet porn company, or some shares in the False Creek Medical Centre, or if his "blind portfolio manager" donated money to the Army of God (who produce manuals on how to murder MDs who perform abortions) as part of his tax shelter, would you defend his actions so vociferously?

Would you say: "It's only a few bucks"? "He doesn't know!" "Others do it, anyways..."

Probably not, because I will hypothesize that you will make ethical judgments on one or more of the above.

You see, many people find the current investment in the fossil fuel industry ethically and intellectually wrong, as it can only lead to more greenhouse gases and further global warming. It is planning for a grey future, and those of us who see such investments from this perspective find those who profit off of destroying our children's futures obscene at best, and criminally negligent at worst. If it is true what you say that Gordo takes a "see no evil" approach to his "small" investments, then his "Green" speeches, are "small" proof that he does not really know or care about much beyond his smug self-satisfaction, which probably explains that little smirk he always wears.

If he did care, he would be planning wind farms and tide-generated power, and investing heavily in them personally. He would be expanding hydro power instead of coal-fired plants. He would be providing generous tax incentives to firms who will do the work. Heck, he even might change labour and capital mobility laws to make it happen more quickly. However, "TILMA" belies Campbell's Green facade; he is actively promoting Oil & Gas.

Good thing Gordo's only making a few bucks. Nothing worth making a stink over.

Premier Campbell invests in B.C.? What a surprise!

So Premier Campbell has been able to invest heavily in British Columbia industry now that so much more of it is privatized.

With foreign ownership, capital investment and employee benefits aren't a huge concern any longer. Sweetens up the dividends, eh.

I wonder if he invests in CostCo, Walmart, Starbucks, KFC and all those minimum wage "industries" ...

Sorry, I know that sounds cranky ... and it is cranky, what with TILMA and SPPI and NAU and P3s, hospitals and schools closing, rivers being given away and overloaded trains that can't stay on the tracks and privatized ALR lands and waking up to find more treaties have been signed that give away the nation's sovereignty ... I know it's good to smile and carry on. But sometimes you just feel like kicking the wall and yelling.

By Gad, green means privatization

Well let me think: since in Ontario, Ontario Hydro (one of the main CO2 emitters) is PUBLICLY OWNED, all of us righteous citizens--who theorietically "own" shares in it-- should be asking government to dump such ownership, right? Which means it should be privatized, right?

But that would be too logical...

Quote:The Campbells also

It make me think of "THE GRADUATE" every time I hear about some KKKlown like KKKampbell investing in...PLASTIC

YES,GORDO,GET YER WOMAN TO BUY PLASTICS FER YER PORTFOLIO...

perferably while she is laying newxt to you in bed with her laptop...

YOU GO KKKAMPBEL....................

Me too BC Mary

"But sometimes you just feel like kicking the wall and yelling."

I feel that way too! Kicking and screaming with Joy! I've never been happier with BC.....

We've done it haven't we. Prosperous once again!!

OTPF vs. Sierra Club

Geez:

Can't stand these damn neo- con groups...check these out.

http://www.sierraclub.ca/national/media/item.shtml?x=569

Almost $100 BILLION in assets, yet screwing up the world , bloody right-istas .

Green means privatization????

Whether or not whomever has shares in whatever oil/energy company is moot...as someone with an RRSP I am not entirely sure I don't own any shares. However, as the premier of our province, Mr. Campbell has a fiduciary duty to us. He should be doing his best at all times, even when on vacation and, yes, even in his stock portfolio, to make us feel confident in his ability to lead this province. This is something he is entirely crappy at and this tidbit just furthers the notion that he gives not one wit for anyone in this province except his corporate interests.

Once again, cappy, you plainly show what IS important to you and yes, you ARE heartless, sweatshops are NOT a necessary evil. That arguement is crap. The industrial revolution does NOT have to be replayed out in every 3rd world country and rich corps do NOT have to build their factories there, rich always at the expense of the poor.....know what you can do with your so-called economies of scale....Economists care about numbers only and consider humans 'resources to be utilized' and if not being utilized to full potential they are resources that have been wasted...that in my opinion, is heartless.

BC might be prosperous but it is the working poor and rural BC who have beared the brunt of Mr. Campbells policies. I would like to see you answer maestro's question...what were they doing BEFORE? Are they REALLY better off?

I personally would like to see things localized, factories working here, an end to box stores, like Walmart. I would bet there are a whole lot of unemployed and small business owners across North America who feel the same way. Is it really necessary for me to talk to someone in INDIA about my Dell for chrissakes! In my opinion, a whole lot suffers in the name of globalization. But I guess as long as the most important 10% of the world population gets theres....I'm with Gwest and can't wait till the bottom falls out of the current 'freemarket' system.

apathysux

Good post. Thanks for your insight. There is a painting on the wall - some see the witch, some see the beautiful woman.

I agree you pointed out some of capitism's annoyances. I once spent 2 hours on the phone, with a woman in India, trying to get my flight changed. It was terribly annoying. We couldn't communicate.

There is the old saying - if it weren't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all. The off-shore factories aren't great - but they are better than nothing.

Before there were sweatshops

This bears repeating.

Just because colonialism, imperialism, and the "White Man's Burden" precluded actually doing business with other people and other countries, in favour of resource theft and wage enslavement at the end of a gun... with the collusion of tribal royalty and tin-pot dictators doesn't mean how history has turned out was by any means necessary or a foregone conclusion. The long view puts our forebear's arrogance into sharp relief. A few hundred years from now historians (if there's any people left alive) will look with an equally critical eye upon capitalism (the system, not the man) and its too high price of cultural and environmental destruction.

Or to put it more simply...

"History shows again and again, how nature points up the folly of men."

"Godzilla" - Blue Oyster Cult.

Well put, Stump

I keep hoping that we, the human race, will eventually get to the point where we will actually put to use what we have learned from history for the good of ALL mankind. Wishful thinking...maybe.
But I still have faith in human nature and our ability to figure it out.

Re: Bangladesh.... Deja Vu?

Some interesting info:

http://www.discoverybangladesh.com/meetbangladesh/agriculture.html

Reading into it and between the lines , the irony is apparently Bangladesh's agrarian sector is becoming more modernized, and as a consequence increasingly self -sufficient , which also implies displacement of workers who would otherwise be employed in agriculture.

Hence another " Industrial Revolution(I.R.)" albeit a delayed one compared to the rest of the world. This "I.R." will inevitably translate into other sectors of the Bangladesh economy.

Have we seen this story before,the world over, aka deja vu ?

Here's another little something for you all to chew on:

Again from the business pages of the incredibly socialist New York Times:

February 18, 2007
The Nation
Nafta Should Have Stopped Illegal Immigration, Right?
By LOUIS UCHITELLE

THE North American Free Trade Agreement, enacted by Congress 14 years ago, held out an alluring promise: the agreement would reduce illegal immigration from Mexico. Mexicans, the argument went, would enjoy the prosperity and employment that the trade agreement would undoubtedly generate — and not feel the need to cross the border into the United States.

But today the number of illegal migrants has only continued to rise. Why didn’t Nafta curb this immigration? The answer is complicated, of course. But a major factor lies in the assumptions made in drafting the trade agreement, assumptions about the way governments would behave (that is, rationally) and the way markets would respond (rationally, as well).

Neither happened, yet Nafta remains the model for trade agreements with developing Latin countries, including the Central American Free Trade Agreement, passed by Congress in 2005. Three more Nafta-like agreements are now pending in Congress — with Panama, Columbia and Peru.

When Nafta finally became a reality, on Jan. 1, 1994, American investment flooded into Mexico, mostly to finance factories that manufacture automobiles, appliances, TV sets, apparel and the like. The expectation was that the Mexican government would do its part by investing billions of dollars in roads, schooling, sanitation, housing and other needs to accommodate the new factories as they spread through the country.

It was more than an expectation. Many Mexican officials in the government of President Carlos Salinas de Gortari assured the Clinton administration that the investment would take place, and believed it themselves, said Gary Hufbauer, a senior fellow at the Peter G. Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington who campaigned for Nafta in the early 1990s.

“It just did not happen,” he said.

Absent that investment, foreign factories congregated in the north, within 300 miles of the American border, where some infrastructure already existed. “Monterrey is quite good,” Mr. Hufbauer said, “but in a lot of other cities the infrastructure is terrible, not even enough running water or electricity in poor neighborhoods. People get temporary jobs, but that is all.”

Meanwhile, Mexican manufacturers, once protected by tariffs on a host of products, were driven out of business as less expensive, higher quality merchandise flowed into the country. Later, China, with its even-cheaper labor, added to the pressure, luring away manufacturers and jobs.

Indeed, despite the influx of foreign-owned factories, total manufacturing employment in Mexico declined to 3.5 million by 2004 from a high of 4.1 million in 2000, according to a calculation of Robert A. Blecker, an American University economist.

As relatively well-paying jobs disappeared, Mexico’s average wage for production workers, already low, fell further behind the average hourly pay of production workers in the United States, and Mexicans responded by migrating.

“The main thing that would have stemmed the flow of people across the border was a rapid increase in wages in Mexico,” said Dani Rodrik, an economist and trade specialist at Harvard’s John F. Kennedy School of Government. “And that certainly has not happened.”

Something similar occurred in agriculture. The assumption was that tens of thousands of farmers who cultivated corn would act “rationally” and continue farming, even as less expensive corn imported from the United States flooded the market. The farmers, it was assumed, would switch to growing strawberries and vegetables — with some help from foreign investment — and then export these crops to the United States. Instead, the farmers exported themselves, partly because the Mexican government decided to reduce tariffs on corn even faster than Nafta required, according to Philip Martin, an agricultural economist at the University of California, Davis.

“We understood that the transition from corn to strawberries would not be smooth,” Professor Martin said. “But we did not think there would be almost no transition.”

A financial crisis also dashed expectations. One expectation was that the Mexican economy, driven by Nafta, would grow rapidly, generating jobs and keeping Mexicans home. The peso crisis of 1994-95, however, provoked a steep recession, and while there was some big growth later, the average annual growth rate over Nafta’s lifetime has been less than 3 percent.

The financial crisis struck just months after Nafta came into existence, undermining, early on, the Mexican government’s ability to spend money on roads, education and other necessary government functions.

“We underestimated Mexico’s deficits in physical and human infrastructure,” said J. Bradford DeLong, an economist at the University of California, Berkeley, and a Treasury official in the Clinton administration.

But, he says, without Nafta the migration would have been even greater. For instance, he says, there would not have been as much investment in the north of the country.

Finally, the steady flow of Mexicans to the United States has produced a momentum of its own — what Jeffrey Passel, a demographer at the Pew Hispanic Institute, calls a “network effect,” in which young Mexicans travel to the United States in growing numbers to join the growing number of family members already here.

The upshot is that Mexican migration to the United States has risen to 500,000 a year from less than 400,000 in the early 1990s, before Nafta, Mr. Passel estimates. Roughly 80 percent to 85 percent of immigrants are here illegally, he says.

The peso crisis, recession, the network effect — their impact may have been beyond anyone’s control, but not the assumptions about how the market and the government would act.

“We have indeed had one disappointment after another on this score,” Mr. Rodrik said, noting that the same assumption about government spending is part and parcel of the agreements, now before Congress, with Columbia, Peru and Panama.

While there is opposition to these proposals, it is mainly from Democrats who want a better safety net for American workers who might be hurt.

The European Union, in contrast, assumes little about government spending on the part of economically weaker nations joining it. The union itself has hugely subsidized the improved services needed by entering countries like Portugal, Spain, Greece and Poland, rather than leave financing to the relatively meager resources of entering countries.

The money is used not only for public investment, Mr. Rodrik noted, but also to subsidize companies setting up operations in the new countries and to support government budgets.

“I am not saying Nafta was a bad agreement,” Mr. Rodrik said. “But more than a trade agreement is required for countries to converge economically. And Nafta has been viewed as a shortcut to convergence without having to do all the other stuff.”

Nafta complete next

Garf what’s next on your dossier, the whole Nafta agreement posted here? Gee whiz,I can hardly contain myself.

Thanks wood

Nice to be appreciated. How's that electric car coming - or did you decide on the Yaris instead?

Can't give them something to read.

Some folks object if you give them something to read to make a point. I guess ad homenum attacks are easier to understand and don't tax the brain. They would much rather hear themselves anyway.

Ben Stein had an interesting piece in the New York times recently about the disparity in taxation between the rich and the lower income folks. And he's pretty well off himself.

shake n drive

Garf you gave me a sh!t hot idea. You have seen those flashlights that you shake for one minute , which in turn gives light for 5 minutes, Now, why not apply that same theory to a small car, you shake it for 15 minutes in return you get 1 hour running time. Or better yet, 30 minutes of humping in the back seat yields 2 hours running time. Good idea eh, Garf, Sh!t, am I green or what!

Investing & Futility

Isn't the Canadian Pension Plan invested in the Candian Stock Market? Yes, it is. This means that, much as some idealists pretend to own no shares, ALL Canadians are probably invested in CN & Alcan.

Read Neil Reynolds' piece in yesterday's Globe, he's the ex NDPer who now writes of the real world. He tells us that even if Canada were to cut emmisions by 10%, China would make that up with their present rate of growth, in 60 days.

As I've written before, a new coal-fired power station comes on line in China weekly! The diversions of the Yellow River frequently cause it to run dry. I can attest to that because I've been driven across it in a Toyota SUV.

Canadians really have to stop feeling so important, panicking and running out to buy energy efficient light bulbs, re-cycling cow-poop and buying expensive hybrid cars. Imagine the ethanol frenzy. If it really takes off vast tracts of agricultural land will be seeded with high-yeild crops for auto fuel. Come some famine somewhere the choice of the developed world will be to divert and convert perhaps unsuitable crops , (remember the surplus cows milk shipped off to Africa-only to find that the people there had a lactose intollerance) to famine relief or keep on truckin'. Relax, unless you want to invade China, and India, and shut them down.

Our Mexican neighbours: Ya

Our Mexican neighbours:

Ya gotta love some of the political parties etc. down there.

" Alliance for the Good of All " party

" Party of the Democratic Revolution "

" Institutional Revolutionary Party "

" People's Revolutionary Army "

I guess the NDP musta taken advantage of NAFTA and franchised .

Yes realisticman... You are

Yes realisticman...

You are right.

People seem to think Greenhouse Gases are like homing pigeons and will stay within a certain locale and hover directly above the country of origin.

They seem to forget basic laws of Thermodynamics...ie maximum disorder = maximum dispersion.

Yep !

People complain about people's jobs going offshore , and YET further support compromising the viability situation here by adding cost etc. , and with measures that will end up doing squat given the aforementioned.

Somewhat illogical and inconsistent, and shooting themselves in the foot prior to putting the foot into their mouths.

Thus, typical Leftie.

Oh Oh:

Just heard a Trudeau is going to run for a Federal Riding..

ONE was E-N-O-U-G=H......

Oh No!!!

eight - good point

I agree - regardless of whether you like his positions on public policy, or not, his personal stock portfolio is a red herring.

Many people, including those who have union pension fund entitlements, whether they know it or not, or like it or not, own many of the same stocks as him.

Campbell is not wealthy. He is driven by his beliefs, not his portfolio. Why waste time looking for conspiracy. There isn't any. Campbell just sees life as being different from some of the people on this blog.

Great Point

This is one point I've said on here, but nobody really seems to pay attention to it. We can't have Kyoto without the US, India and China at the table. End of Story.

Canada makes up such an insignificant portion of greenhouse gas emissions - yet G West et. all can't comprehend this fact.

Again, you have to realize, these people think in ideologies, not realities. This is why they are where they are in life!

I've been to both India and China. New Dehli in particular has such poor air quality, your white t-shirt literally turns brown by the end of the day. Your lungs itch the entire day.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything. Nothing is not an option. However, we must think and act with the right perspectives. This is why Harper was right when he called this a socialist scheme. This is their new boogie man!

You guys still aren't living in the real world

Moreover, what is behind the greenhouse gases coming from China? The coal-fired generation of electricity in China being used to produce products for North American markets and to support and finance the American public debt - as well as its standard of living. Just like Alberta gas produces CO2 emissions in America when it’s burned in factories and furnaces in the USA not just in Canada. We live in a global economy and breathe air that's part of a global environment. Isn’t that the whole neocon market driven ethos. Have you all forgotten your credo?

Ignore the fact that Canada's ecological footprint is far greater than all but a handful of countries in the world if you like...but that's where the rubber hits the road.

This is not going to be a question of ideologies and profits - it is going to be a question of survival.

It is nice though to see all the dinosaurs gathering here with Premier Campbell under the same rotten tree, beside the same polluted Athabaska water hole. I’m surprised ex-premier Klein hasn’t dropped in for a beer or two. We haven’t has a big a collection of purblind jokers in one place for quite some time. Grasshoppers. I’m just surprised Ron Erwin isn’t here making the case for a return to massive DDT spraying in Africa.

Lead, follow or get out of the way

How can we call China, India, America, et al to account if we do nothing?

We can be world leaders, or we can be hypocrites.

I Agree Stump!

I never said we shouldn't do anything. However, we need these parties involved if we want to see real change.

Truthfully, you and I both know that nobody cares about Canada. Under 10 - 12 years of Liberal rule, we made ourselves so incredibly insignificant to the rest of the world. We have zero influence and no respect. We are not disrespected, it is like we don't even exist!

Canada needs to develop a better foreign policy and environment is one plank of the bigger picture.

All I'm saying is lets not deal in ideologies! Let's deal in realities.

Lefties blowing green house gases up one anothers hoop.

Stump says,

Illogical question, how? Particularly when these countries own and or control the resources here, Where in Hell have you people been for the last 25 years , in a Liberal- NDP induced altered state of mind. Oh, I remember seeing you guys now, running around singing folk songs and tying little ribbons in one another hair. In fact, a throw back born from that era announced yesterday, he will run for Liberals- NDP , time for you guys to get out those ribbons and mandolins again.

Real Change

None of those other countries (esp. developing nations) are going to do a thing as long as they see us refusing to practice what we preach.

Appearances and actions count. Good intentions don't. That's the reality if you ask me.

Woody

Twenty-five years ago it was the fashion to wear black and say "Smash the state".

The folk songs and flowers in the hair are four decades gone my friend.

Where have you been? You might want to bring yourself up to date.

Exactly my Point!!

Gavin - you and I are interpreting the same facts differently. Let's try and have a discussion here - without you resorting to pot-shots....

EXACTLY!!! So, what is Kyoto accomplishing? We live in a global society and the first world is merely shifting its greenhouse gas emissions to China!! All the chest-thumping Kyoto participants are merely outsourcing our greenhouse gases to CHINA!!! You are robbing Peter to go pay Paul!!

I've said for years that we need China in the USA involved otherwise it is a moot point. China is experiencing 10% GDP growth. The G8 and other developed countries have to get together and impose sanctions on China and the other textile producing nations. We start it off small, but increase it over time.

Goods will still be far cheaper to produce in China. We charge them a 2% environmental levy and pay it back to complying companies....gives companies incentive to become greener.

So many left wing ideologues spouting off here. Kyoto isn't going to do anything to GLOBAL warming. It is called GLOBAL warming because the reach extends beyond the 49th parrallel.

This is why Kyoto is nothing short of a socialist sheme. Global warming is real - Kyoto was dreamt up by a bunch of commies like you, Gavin, to increase taxes and hault economic development.

Garf, you can do your part and buy a Yaris. It ain't gonna do sh*t but make you feel better about yourself. The problem lies outside of Canada, and until we can stop the rhetoric, we'll never see change.

Stump - You're Wrong!

None of these countries are going to do a damn thing as long as they can continue to make a boat-load of cash by producing cheap goods without regard for the environment.

You've clearly never been to these countries. You should go - because you'll see the world a lot differently. These people could care less about global warming. These countries are full of corruption. This is not a mooshy-gooshy scenario, where if Canada steps up - everybody will follow!!!

The only way they'll change is if it hits their pocket-books. Again Stump, get off your ideological high-horse and start joining the world!

The crap you preach looks great in a novel or an essay, but it does not translate to the real world.

Capitalism

So would that reality you deal in 'not' include the ideological point of view that you 'hate' the French?

For you to say that you deal with reality and not ideology is only the latest stupid think you've posted here.

But it is one of the funniest. And that foreign policy makeover you're touting, who would be your model for that little project - seems like pee wee's already picked one...the side that's more than anything responsible for the mess the international situation is in today - the USA.

I was never a Liberal fan, not one of Martin's either - he was a much a dissembler as pee wee is - and his foreign policy promises were all made tongue in cheek. But really, in this day and age, I'd rather we just looked after own affairs and solved our own problems...we certainly have nothing to teach the world in a time when our duly elected minority government won't even recognize that this country has ratified an international agreement that we are continuing to violate and ignore. I can’t even accuse the US of that – and their record on responding to climate change is moving in the right direction. We have nothing to teach anyone; we should be ashamed.

Some example for the rest of the world.

Some realism.

Me resort to pot shots!

Now that's the second funny thing you've said this morning.

I'm outta here. I never did enjoy shooting fish in a barrel. Work to do.

nice try g. anyone with

nice try g. anyone with 'work to do' doesn't spend as much time here as you do.

more reality

An excellent point. Which is why it's surprising (if you are serious about dealing with evironmental degradation) to hear you tout capitalism and consumption so often.

When Westerners stop buying Made in China crap, it will affect their bottom line and help the environment.

All things are connected.

Stump says

Stump says

No their not Stump,Particularly the Liberal-NDP mentality, that's what I was alluding to in my previous post.

Stump

Firstly, I never said global warming was my biggest priority. The economy is. So, whether I agree with it or not, if we want to combat global warming, that is how you'd do it.

I'm not oblivious to things. I don't turn my head and call people names like Gavin. I acknowledge solutions and decide whether it is worth it or not.

Personally, I love the outdoors. I want to leave something of it for my kids. I believe we should act, but move in moderation. Phase this in, much like the Income Trust decision....

Garf, you really disappoint me. I try to engage you in a serious debate and you have nothing. Mostly, I only engage you because you humour me. You are a daily source of entertainment. You're an empty follow Garf, I'm now mixed on whether I feel sorry for you or whether I still find you funny. Regardless, I still get my kicks!

I try not to pawn my opinions off as facts Stump. I believe Kyoto is useless and after reading my dialogue, you must tend to agree...

KKKapitalism

Put the bedsheets back on the bed my friend. Your prejudice shines through.

That quote could apply to Canada, America, nearly anywhere.

All things are connected Woody. Wishing it weren't so may make life easier, but you're living an illusion.

Do you know about the salmon, bear, forest equation? A perfect example.

No jobs on a dead planet

If you haven't made the connection between long-term economic health and sustainability yet, there's no point in engaging you in dialogue.

Moderation and incremental change might have worked fifty years ago, but now, we've frittered away any room for error long ago.

Further, if you're waiting for unanimity amongst scientists before accepting the urgency of the situation, you'll never take action. If the vast majority of scientific opinion isn't enough for you, then clearly you're more interested in excuses for the status quo than real action.

Gee, who was the guy bitching that the Left doesn't offer up solutions in some other thread and just complains, complains, complains?

Pot, meet kettle.

I only have a minute on a colleagues' comput

Cappy:
Would you call the following serious debate?

All quoted are from your posts, and I didn't look beyond the budget thread. I am busy today.

wouldn't expect anything good outta Garth.

He, much like most lefties likes to point out everything (they perceive) that is wrong, yet can never offer any solutions.

Garth doesn't know what he's talking about.
He spends his time "finishing" these mysterious contracts.
He's probably a leasing agent at a rental car company.
Don't hold your breath.

There wouldn't be civilization in BC if it weren't for industrial use of the Fraser River.

We need to put more money in the hands of the wealthy

I looked back over G West's posts and couldn't find a single example of him calling you a name - other than Cappy - so I'm afraid, once again, you don't know what you're talking about. If I had more time I could have filled this thread with the kinds of ad hominem attacks you've made on me over the months. By the way, I didn’t undertake to correct your spelling or your grammar.

That too is reality.

You might want to try growing up and, if you're looking for an avatar of your point of view you could check some of realisticman's comments. I don't agree with him either, but he and I can actually have a discussion and I don't feel I've returned to the playground in elementary school.

Bye - I have another of those mysterious contracts to finish. One of the joys of being self employed - I can't ask anyone else to do it for me.

Who's getting whacked today ? TGIF

Contract?

Whose getting whacked today with ideological " cement shoes"

.... or is it "shooting" oneself in the foot first before the same bullet enters the intended targets ass ?

Or car bomb on the Hummer?
BTW that explosion will add to Global Warming.

Donate generously to P.I.S.B. discussed previously

all alone, am I?

Stump says to the woody

Yeah so, like Im alone or some thing, have you ever gave thought to, maybe it’s your world that’s an illusion.

Well Im out of here for

Well Im out of here for awhile, gotta get back to my next green project , Im developing a Solar powered Vibrator.

One wonders where the

One wonders where the fellow" Capitalist" gets all his stuff? If he is out there making tons of money as a big time capitalist, why does he spend so much time reading The Tyee and telling us all how we are lefties. Owns companies, travels a lot and has an answer for any article that isn't right to the right. Wonder if he is the official apologist for Gordon who in his mind can do no wrong. Or maybe someone whpo wishes he was big time.
I cetainly am not big time, just someone with a few minutes to spare to read articles in free on line papers. One would think he would have his time spent in reading the business news. But he is sort of amusing in his right wing slant once in awhile. Not too busy, let's attack the poor, the street folks and the rest of those folks who arn't contributing to the provicne as he would like them to be doing

gordo's stocks

I really don't have a problem with gordo's stock investments. What I do have is a problem with his continual lies. His drunkenness’ is Hawaii (more then booze), attempted selling of the Coquihalla (he tried so hard), selling off of BC Hydro, lying about gambling, no increases (huge lie), selling off of BC Rail (huge lie), Reducing legally earned contracts with the hospital workers, BVB, and his involvement (If it ever gets to trial), his big time investment in green power (Just an attempt to get votes), promising to help the needy (he will stop helping them, they don't vote for most part), the degradation of our medical system, hospitals (Cutting operating rooms time). I could go on, but why? The only thing left is to remove him from power. As my lawyer said to me recently, “If you had a partner like this, you would be out of business. Cause that partner would rob you blind” Yes I trust him, NOT!

Re: solutions from "lefties"

We so-called lefties have oodles of solutions, ones that would work, too. Just ask Ed Deak, Coyote, GWest, and others.

There are solutions and have been for global warming, polution, greenhouse gases, etc. for fifty odd years. The problem with implementing them has always been capitalism and the almighty bottom dollar. "We can't do this, we can' t do that it will take too high a percentage of the shareholder's profits."

The development of technology for 'green' transportation was 'killed' by the oil and gas industry, ON PURPOSE. Cause money is more important than humanity. There are plenty of companies who have successfully developed green technology, recyle as much waste as possible into new products and are making money...they had growing pains and initial high start up or change over costs but once the returns start coming in it is taking no time at all to reap the rewards of making the investment.

The problem is not that there are no solutions, it is that there are no solutions that large corps and the oil and gas industry can be satisfied with because implementing them will cut into profits and slowdown production.

We could turn consumption into conservation, production into reduce, reuse and recycle, globalization into localization. Sounds like a plan to me.

Re: solutions from "lefties"

We so-called lefties have oodles of solutions, ones that would work, too. Just ask Ed Deak, Coyote, GWest, and others.

There are solutions and have been for global warming, polution, greenhouse gases, etc. for fifty odd years. The problem with implementing them has always been capitalism and the almighty bottom dollar. "We can't do this, we can' t do that it will take too high a percentage of the shareholder's profits."

The development of technology for 'green' transportation was 'killed' by the oil and gas industry, ON PURPOSE. Cause money is more important than humanity. There are plenty of companies who have successfully developed green technology, recyle as much waste as possible into new products and are making money...they had growing pains and initial high start up or change over costs but once the returns start coming in it is taking no time at all to reap the rewards of making the investment.

The problem is not that there are no solutions, it is that there are no solutions that large corps and the oil and gas industry can be satisfied with because implementing them will cut into profits and slowdown production.

We could turn consumption into conservation, production into reduce, reuse and recycle, globalization into localization. Sounds like a plan to me.

That would work....for Greenhouse Gases in Canada

People simply do not care enough about the environment to revert to state sponsored socialism.

What you are proposing would quell global greenhouses gases in this nation. What you are proposing is also called communism.

You are right, it is the capitalistic society that is creating pollution. There is no doubt. However, let's face facts. Big business is not going away, period. Globalization and industrialization of the emerging markets is not going away.

What you are proposing would simply turn Canada into a colder version of Cuba. No thanks!

I just wish you'd go away

If the alternatives were as dire as you paint them then we would truly be in trouble.

Thankfully they aren't. And thankfully, as always, you don’t know what you’re on about.

The really worrying thing is the uncomfortable conclusion that very many of the folks into whose hands a minority of Canadian and British Columbia voters have delivered the responsibility of determining the future of this province and this country (among others) seem to be as incapable of rational thought and discussion as you are Cappy.

You simply can't stop calling people names and behaving like a school yard bully, can you? 'I hate this. I resent that. You’re a leftie socialist. Na na na na.' Did you read the stuff I collected for you? You really should – and it ought to shock you and embarrass you. Even ubiqutious remarked the other day about it.

It's your way or the highway isn't it?

Well, thankfully, it's not. There are a whole range of other options...many of which will result in a much fairer, cleaner and more egalitarian society for everyone – both here and all around the world – a society that can get along just fine without you and your failure of imagination and the kind of irresponsible globalism you seem to think is the sine qua none of international relations and commerce.

We try to point out what some of these options are; some of the other ways of approaching the future. And to this, you respond with the kind of thing you've just posted above.

Grow up man - or spend your spare time somewhere where you'll be appreciated. All you do here is make yourself look ridiculous.

Sad

But not surprising that someone with such obvious prejudices would write-off his fellow humans so easily.

Annoying, but business as usual when you make statements as though they are foregone conclusions, and fail to provide the proofs.

Unfortunate, but obvious that you'd prefer to traffick in the lies you've bought rather than accept the truths that make a mockery of your opinions and world-view.

Too bad, but necessary that your posts now be ignored as unworthy of further debate.

Don't suffer the same fate Maestro. You show glimmerings of common sense too often to end up consigned to the ignore pile for failing to let your philosophy change with the times and the evidence.

Stump

You show me what "evidence" there is to suggest that Kyoto would have any impact on global warming. In fact, read the quote above where some former NDP minister said that China's increase in greenhouse gas emissions would make the world's decreases irrelevant.

I've never disputed the science behind global warming. I even discussed an alternative - trade restrictions with develop nations that do not comply with international standards.

Yet, I have ole' Garfy here going on and on about my principles. Garf - get lost. If you have such a problem we me and me views, don't respond. You are as predictable as the sunrise. You gotta chill out. Somebody needs to take you out drinking. You're a lonely fellow aren't you?

Still calling people names I see

How soon you forget what you posted this morning, remember?

Still think you can sustain that position?

Like me to post a little more evidence?

And, about solutions, Cappy

Why not chew on this for a while? Free of charge from behind the New York Times firewall today - just for you: (I should be charging you, I have to pay for these things, understand?)

Colorless Green Ideas
By PAUL KRUGMAN
The factual debate about whether global warming is real is, or at least should be, over. The question now is what to do about it.

Aside from a few dead-enders on the political right, climate change skeptics seem to be making a seamless transition from denial to fatalism. In the past, they rejected the science. Now, with the scientific evidence pretty much irrefutable, they insist that it doesn’t matter because any serious attempt to curb greenhouse gas emissions is politically and economically impossible.

Behind this claim lies the assumption, explicit or implicit, that any substantial cut in energy use would require a drastic change in the way we live. To be fair, some people in the conservation movement seem to share that assumption.

But the assumption is false. Let me tell you about a real-world counterexample: an advanced economy that has managed to combine rising living standards with a substantial decline in per capita energy consumption, and managed to keep total carbon dioxide emissions more or less flat for two decades, even as both its economy and its population grew rapidly. And it achieved all this without fundamentally changing a lifestyle centered on automobiles and single-family houses.

The name of the economy? California.

There’s nothing heroic about California’s energy policy — but that’s precisely the point. Over the years the state has adopted a series of conservation measures that are anything but splashy. They’re the kind of drab, colorless stuff that excites only real policy wonks. Yet the cumulative effect has been impressive, if still well short of what we really need to do.

The energy divergence between California and the rest of the United States dates from the 1970s. Both the nation and the state initially engaged in significant energy conservation after that decade’s energy crisis. But conservation in most of America soon stalled: after a decade of rapid progress, improvements in auto mileage came to an end, while electricity consumption continued to rise rapidly, driven by the growing size of houses, the increasing use of air-conditioning and the proliferation of appliances.

In California, by contrast, the state continued to push policies designed to encourage conservation, especially of electricity. And these policies worked.

People in California have always used a bit less energy than other Americans because of the mild climate. But the difference has grown much larger since the 1970s. Today, the average Californian uses about a third less total energy than the average American, uses less than 60 percent as much electricity, and is responsible for emitting only about 55 percent as much carbon dioxide.

How did the state do it? In some cases conservation was mandated directly, through energy efficiency standards for appliances and rules governing new construction. Also, regulated power companies were given new incentives to promote conservation, via rule changes that “decoupled” their profits from the amount of electricity they sold.

And yes, a variety of state actions had the effect of raising energy prices. In the early 1970s, the price of electricity in California was close to the national average. Today, it’s about 50 percent higher.

Incidentally, since someone is bound to mention it: the California energy crisis of 2000-2001 has nothing to do with this story. That crisis was caused by market manipulation — we’ve got it on tape — made possible by ill-conceived deregulation, not conservation.

Back to California’s success. As the higher price of power indicates, conservation didn’t come free. Still, it’s striking how invisible California’s energy policy remains. It’s easy to see why New York has much lower per capita energy consumption than, say, Georgia: it’s a matter of high-rises versus sprawl, mass transit versus driving alone. It’s less obvious that Los Angeles is a much greener city than Atlanta. But it is.

So is California a role model for climate policy? No and yes. Even if America as a whole had matched California’s conservation efforts, we’d still be emitting about as much carbon dioxide now as we were in 1990. That’s too much.

But California’s experience shows that serious conservation is a lot less disruptive, imposes much less of a burden, than the skeptics would have it. And the fact that a state government, with far more limited powers than those at Washington’s disposal, has been able to achieve so much is a good omen for our ability to do a lot to limit climate change, if and when we find the political will.

And, just for verisimilitude

You might want to look at this, from a right-wing American group whose knickers are in a twist because Al Gore might win an Academy Award this weekend:
(I've taken the liberty of removing the email links)
This is the way your allies do business my friend. I had another fancy pants message from David Horowitz making many of the same points and also urging ACTION.

That's the kind of thing you seem to be into Cappy, and it shows.

Fellow Patriots,

I urge you to sign this petition now, please. We already have over
30,000 electronic signatures. We want to deliver 100,000 signatures to
the Senate by the time Al Gore reaches the podium at this Sunday's
Academy Awards.

It takes only 20 seconds to sign online, link to:

To sign by e-mail, send a blank e-mail to:

Thank you!

Semper Vigilo, Fortis, Paratus et Fidelis!

Mark Alexander
Publisher, PatriotPost.US

Nice people!

Woody:

Hey Woody:

Wouldn't those "green" things you are working on generally be used in the dark ?

PS Maybe ask the Lefties to test them.

The Vigilante

The Vigilante head honcho says,

Whew that was close, I thought that posse was going to string me up from a solar powered street light pole, sure glad that Cappy fellow has a slower horse. I know there has been more than one feller who’s been strung up by these guys.

Leftie Solutions (?!):

Leftie solution/s ?:

"Tax" and "Fine" ....very original.

When the SMART CAR came out, gee, gas prices where at an all -time high or were, shortly thereafter.

I thought there would be a boom in SMART CAR sales.

However, in my observation, they are as few and far between as NDP'ers.

Climate change is a H-U-G-E issue, but this " New Age religion " has prostelyitzed all political stripes along the lines of " when did you stop screwing up the environment ", a loaded question regardless of which way you answer.

Al Gore(?) " Rock Star "? ..." Oscar nomination" ?....how's about do something useful besides the lecture circuit BS to hide you own poli- ineptness...How about " Habitat -for -Humanity' like ol ex-President Jimmy Carter , at least he won an election.

Otherwise....Lefties go back the Leftie -Land , do the homework THEN the research,....quit the conspiracy BS,.. and call us when you have something useful besides just the usual Tax, Fine and Spend ideological rhetoric.

PS " Kyoto" is some obscure irrelevant politicians dog, nothing more..woof -woof

phew

Maestro asked

I did that, the dam thing crapped out, now it runs like crap.In fact it looks like crap, yikes it is crap!

Just Checking.

I stayed out of this one, but I see our resident right-whiners are as illogical as ever. I have tried numerous times to explain to that moron Cappy what socialism and communism are, and aren't, but he won't listen. And I suggest people like Maestro who sneer at the possibility of global warming put their money where their mouth is. If you are so sure that scientists are wrong, gamble on it.

Comrade anarcho: "AIDS from Toilet Seats"

When we discuss these TYEE topics, often they are re-hashes of ones discussed many times before. Global warming is one of them.

However there is often something new added in each discussion.

Someone made note of the Global C-O-O-L-I-N-G " fear - fad " years ago...perhaps 20 years ago? I don't seem to recall many contrarian views saying oh no, we have a Global W-A-R-M-I-N-G trend.

So, in essence there is all this data, for 100's of years, and yet in about 20 years we have done a 180 degree turn from Global Cooling to Global Warming.

I have vivid recollections of weather patterns over time ... hot dry summers in various decades, colder winters...and mild winters...In MAY a few years back temp up to 30 Celsius, snow in JULY...

I talked to a tradesmen earlier this year, and without going into details , he talked about his earlier entrepeneurial career while in his early 20's when AIDS started to become a societal concern in the early 1980's .

A major US company published " a study " that one could get AIDS from toilet seats in the early 1980's . This company produces many health and personal hygiene products. This person told me he had been inspired by all this AIDS fear and designed a simple device to alleviate the concerns of touching a toilet seat. He said he was offered $1 MILLION up front by a major company to sign over his design, but he hedged for various reasons.

Later , he got scammed while not " minding the farm " and it all went down the toilet, literally and figuratively. Also the AIDS from toilet seats "fad-fear-scare" diminished as M-O-R-E S-C-I-E-N-T-I-F-I-C D-A-T-A and M-O-R-E R-E-S-E-A-R-C-H became available.

Yes, we can all get a wee -bit into heated discussions on these issues, but I have seen these FADS happen before and they will inevitably happen again.

We hear stories of quasi-bullying in the scientific community when some parties swim against the Ivory Tower Tide and engage in various forms of debate with the current intellectual " fad " zeitgeist.

Why? Isn't that what it's all about? The infinite search for " Truth " involves checks and balances, PhD quality control ?

Or is it simply a Grant $$$ -seeking cult of Brainiacs,...ride the latest "Fear and Loathing " Wave and have nervous and gutless politicians cut cheques " no questions asked ".

A bit of a side bar " conflict of interest " to create " fear and loathing of X " and then study X further. Perish the thought?

It's getting nauseatingly formulaic.

Regardless of the issue/s, the unfortunate thing is when " the sky is supposedly falling ", Gov't tends to engage in policy and legislation that gives the impression of a fix ..often the TAX and FINE mode...vs elbow grease and pragmatic Pro-Activeness.

Unfortunately, there are often problems that arise that have collateral effects, and often an audit of the Gov't initiative shows it did sweet-bugger all to fix the problem simply created others..." to be studied ....if not in fact also litigated . "

People by and large are reasonable,( even Lefties), if they are given ALL the FACTS and feel they have some say. However, if one doesn't have all the facts...and sees that the "Buckwheat is still NOT separated from the Bullsh!te", it is not UNreasonable to not only ignore what are often Junk Science fads etc, but in fact it is ones' right to challenge it.

I see our leadership as often failing us at the best of times...and even moreso on this issue. Policy and Legislation in fear mode is in no -one's best interests.

Scientists are like Lawyers..even when they are wrong...often " NO REFUNDS " nor BLAME, nor accept RESPONSIBILTY.

"NEXT" !!!

Put yer money where your mouth is

As I said before, Maestro, if you are so sure that scientists are wrong, gamble on it. By that I don't mean money necessarily. Just go on record in some public manner along others who believe as you do and declare that should this non-existent global warming occur, you will not seek assistance or aid in any manner, governmental or private, and be held publicly accountable for attempting to hold back any action to counter global warming.

anarcho

last time i checked, mr. maestro is not a public figure. global warming will not seriously impact us in BC for several years. I think maestro will be just fine.

Our biggest problem is that a frigid winter is needed to kill-off the pine beetle!

Sea levels just aren't rising fast enough to sink Vanouver....in our lifetime. Perhaps Maestro should engrave something on his tombstone???

anaracho - i see right through you and your people! work less, more wage equality, more wealth redistribution, more regulation, more government protection, etc. etc. etc.

Maestro is the type of guy we need NOT worry about. He knows how to take care of himself and what it takes to survive. It is many of the people on this board that I worry about. Ask not what your government can do for you, ask it to get lost!!

No you don't - worry about people

You just call them names and post utter foolishness in an insane subconscious desire to make yourself appear foolish and ignorant in public.

And it's working.

anarcho, prove that scientist are correct

maestro is "right" , awhile back it was a new ice age that we being cautioned about, now its going to be global warming. I goggled this subject ,(global cooling)any one who wants to read can get informed, if unable to do this I will supply one sight address. Where I live its focking cold here, matter of fact, Im looking foreword to a little global warming.
anarcho your no different than these guys that maestro alluded to,( Scientists are like Lawyers..even when they are wrong...often " NO REFUNDS " nor BLAME, nor accept RESPONSIBILITY.)

PS Im still going to buy a Yaris or something like.

Dimming the Sun
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/dimm-nf.html

Comrade anarcho;

Simply review basic Laws of Thermodynamics, the(3) basic States of Matter(G,L,S) , and my homing pigeon analogy posted earlier...and that historically, we tend to respect borders, (give or take) and the Laws of the Land within each of those borders.

It would be nice if we all had the same homogenized " hymn books ", but fortunately or unfortunately , we don't.

" Kyoto" was an off -key Hymn book....now immortalized by Federal LIEberal leader Stephan DingDong's dog by the same name.

Now if Stephans dog "Kyoto" gets hit by a Hybrid Car ,..or Ignatieff's solar powered Harley, ..or Rae's nuclear powered roller blades,....or a person using the cycling lane, or G West's HUMMER,(aka we call that irony),....then after the State funeral...drastic action MUST be taken.

Stephan must by a new dog and call it..." Climate Change " or perhaps " Anna Nicole" , whatever gets the most votes.

Or .....as Redd Foxx once said

QUESTION : " Why do farts smell..." ?

ANSWER: so Deaf (ooops PC version = " sound wave interpretation challenged" ) People can enjoy them too.

Farts begin with a concentrated gaseous aroma...but the (Tax-Free)novelty is unfortunately lost due the Laws of Thermodynamics. Agreed?

Perhaps farts are more environmentally friendly tracers than radioactive isotopes re: the same arguments.

These fart molecules disperse...and we never see them again, till "re-load" time. BTW do Organic foods contribute more to farts than non -Organic?

Are vegetarians the worst farters...all that damn FIBRE ?. Are farts inevitable? It's simply equilibrium arguments at various points in the food chain?. Meat eaters have less farts...which is thus done more by the cows they eat, whereas Vegetarians make up the "fart deficit" that otherwise would be made by cows because vegetarians don't eat meat, and are more like human bovines.

Thus, are Vegetarians MORE guilty using the Global Warming "Fart -Salem witch trial" logic?

Hmmm worth a study(= $$$$)?

Farting cows are an actual oft- quoted example...and how long is one down(laterally directed )wind from ol Bessy? Bessy is global ain't she? Let er rip and up she goes into the atmosphere.

Use the aforementioned , and in one's own modelling process , which of course has a hymn book facet, ....a junk science fad facet ,.... and MORE importantly,..a Joker -in- the- deck jurisdictional differentiation - demarcation facet from country -to -country and border- to -border.

I rest my case, and with all the current evidence , perhaps one of the L-E-S-S guilty of the perceived charges, if this is some sort of trial...which often ends up in idealisitic /ideological Kangaroo court anyway.

G'day.

Worry

That's not true Alci, I worry about my fellow man! However, from time to time, each individual has to take responsibility and step up to the plate.

I even worry about you Alci.

Deja vu all over again.

Remember that classic " Twilight Zone " episode when the Aliens landed and initially ingratiated themselves with the Earthlings?

A large number of earthlings felt like it was like the "Quasi- 2nd Coming" and literally were into worship -mode of these same Aliens.

QUESTION : Remember the " Title " of the "bible" - book the Aliens used ?

ANSWER: Title = " To Serve Man "

ANYONE Remember the ending ?

Were NDP?

Were NDP?

Garf the Hypocrite

The funny thing is, I don't even know that Garf realizes how convulted his thinking is:

When discussion "Global Warming", he writes above, "But really, in this day and age, I'd rather we just looked after own affairs and solved our own problems..."

What a disgusting act of hypocricy. It is painfully obvious that he doesn't care about seeing real results. He doesn't care about what China, the US etc. does as it pertains to greenhouse gas emissions.

I've got news for you Garfy, it is not Canada contributing to global warming. It is China, the emerging markets and the US. None of whom are participating in Kyoto!!

Yet Garf, like most lefties, has jumped all over this global warming issue and the need to meet the Kyoto protocol.

I just wish Garf wouldn't exploit this issue. Just admit it Garf, this is just a ploy for you people. I'm sure you care about climate change, I do too. However, your alterior motive is to slow economic growth, increase taxes and regulations and reduce corporate profits!!

If you actually cared as much about "global warming" - you wouldn't say "But really, in this day and age, I'd rather we just looked after own affairs and solved our own problems..."

I'm not even insulting, I am speaking the truth - when I call you a joke.

You cannot cherry pick

You cannot cherry pick science. You either have to accept a scientific world view or not. This is one of those few areas where "either-or" does exist. With the proviso of course, that science is always open to revision with new evidence. Thus, you cannot simply with a toss of the shoulders dismiss what climate scientists have to say. If you do, then to be consistant and therefore honest you must also reject other areas of science. You must not go to a doctor when you are seriously ill, for example, but resort to prayers or the laying on of hands.

Willful ignorance!

Cappy you are showing your willful ignorance once more. I do not favor "more government", instead favoring empowerment of the population, which means direct democracy and the decentralization of power. I have only been writing about this in Tyee for the past 3 years. Of course, if a choice is given between the law of the jungle barbarism that you seem to admire, and social democracy (ie moderate government social and environmental reforms) I as any decent human being, will put human need before ideology.

anarcho

my definition of empowerment of the population is less regulatoins. Empowering people to make their own decisions, including where to spend their own hard earned money. In fact, many blasted Carole Taylor's "Do it yourself budget". Do it yourself means to me, providing the tools necessary to accomplish things - doesn't this mean empowerment.

I quite reading your posts. I think, for a leftie, you have some pretty pragmatic and realistic points of view. However, in this instance, I believe you are diluting yourself by saying you support a system of empowerment.

You support a system of government intervention and control - if you've crafted a way to define that as "empowerment", please let me know...

Home Sweet Home

Geez you Rightees are good for a few chuckles today.

I'm starting to wonder why you even have your own political party when all you do is criticize the Left, then adopt our ideas and call them your own and then deny you ever thought differently :-)

Nice to see you're all wanting on the global warming bandwagon now. Don't worry, I saved you guys each a seat since I knew you'd want on after a few years of denial.

Have a good day guys

Oh please

Cappy, you're the biggest pro-government interventionist on the Tyee.

Why? You and I, Ron, NLN and WM went over this issue long ago. My point was that no one benefits more from government than the Right yet because many of us on the Left also benefit, which bugs those on the Right, no one whines more about government either.

Many of us on the Left would happily reply to a suggestion to dismantle government with "Bring It On".

We have a system that supports lazy people by allowing them to use their money to make money instead of their labour. And although I see you now claim to have "done it all" by saving the fact is back in your "mabel lake bc" days you admitted you were the recipient of a large inheritance which you invested. Nothing wrong with that but its dishonest to say you never had any breaks.

Add up the money this country has spent on the poor and then add up what it gives to the rich. Police, roads, land grants, cutting rights, mining rights etc etc aren't chicken feed yet all that is only possible if you have a government.

Take away government and overnight you'll get the wealth redistribution you're seemingly so against.

Solar-powered light posts

Perhaps you jest Woody. Perhaps not.

Anyway, they're on the market if you're looking.

http://www.siliconsolar.com/solar-post-lights.php

Regarding Kyoto... I'm surprised that the vociferous barrackers for capitalism and free markets apparently think their preferred system of 'economics' isn't robust enough to survive five years under Kyoto (the 2012 deadline) or that the usual, 'let the market and technological innovation respond to the challenges' mantra isn't trotted out as a reason not to worry about Kyoto crippling the economy. As a friend has noted... road removal creates jobs too.

Economic growth

Don't worry Stump, nothing helps the economy more than a good ice storm or a war. GDP is the only measurement the Right loves so now they've come to realize climate change could be a great thing for the bottom line and are embracing it in droves.

There's no money in curing the problem though as they will tell you. The money is in treating the problem. A problem they won't want to fix. So fire up some new coal plants and buy a hybrid.

Wayta go Frank

"so now they've come to realize climate change could be a great thing for the bottom line and are embracing it in droves."

I love it, its true! Is this a bad thing - i've always said the only way to save the environment is to profit off of it! Being eco-friendly must be eco-nomic!

Let's face facts here. We can talk until we're blue in the fact about what "ideally" would happen. None of that is going to happen! We must continue to re-invest and provide incentives to be "green".

Frank - I'm actually in and out of meetings today and I'd love to chat further about whether I am a government interventionist or not (by the way, I'm not). I simply don't have the time right now, but let's try and get into that conversation later.

Yes you are

Cap, really think about whether you're pro-gov't or not. I think you are. Or at least more than I am.

And maestro, if you're reading this do the same. Because I recall you being very against my idea (and Coyote's) of scrapping provincial governments because we don't need them. I think provinces are a waste of money yet I was interested to see you defending their existence.

What's your view on the existence of provincial governments Cap?

Does anyone here know of societies without governments that were individualistic (ie not tribal etc) without being incredibly violent? I can't think of one.

Because my view is that if we have to have governments then they should be positive forces within the society to at least balance their negative effects. The Right seems to be against progressive government but very much in favour of government itself.

Environmental capitalists

"Is this a bad thing"

Yes. Because as I said, there's no money in curing the problem. Any idiot knows a lot of pseudo-wealth could be generated if we are somehow able to mitigate the effects of our own pollution. Then the investor class could reap the benefits of both creating pollution and reducing pollution.

But it would be bad for the economy to get rid of pollution.

Cappy, I thought you didn't call people names?

How soon you forget what you posted yesteday morning, remember?

Quote:

The fact is cappy, you're so into hypocrisy and name calling I don't even think you realize it any more. Do you ever read anything I post?

Just keep it up. Everyone's watching and most of the people out there know exactly who's telling the truth.

How was the trip?

says Capitalism

As in, presumably a $56.00 dollar tax refund on a taxable income of $15,000 per annum.

THAT really is doing it yourself. Need a new toaster or iron? Go right out and buy - cash on the barrel head. or maybe a one person tent to solve your housing problems.

Welcome back Frank. Stump and yours truly have been lonely.

You are a very dishonest interlocutor

What I actually said was nothing like what you accuse me of saying.

Just for the record, here's the whole quote you pulled that deceptive little redaction from:

Puts it in rather a different light doesn't it? You are liar and not even a very good one at that. Not only do you have no ideas and aren't capable of sustaining an intelligent thought for more than a micro-second you are dishonest, rude, greedy, incapable of making your point without being offensive and, when you claim to be interested in actually discussing things your behavior points out just exactly what you are into: Name calling, misrepresentation and character assassination.

If you make one more vulgar, rude or disingenuous remark to me or misrepresent what I write in any way, I will immediately report you for violating the rules here at Tyee. Someone who contributed more in one post to real dialogue than you have in the cumulative total of the things you’ve posted here is sitting on the sidelines for violating those rules while you continue to behave in a far less responsible way as a matter of course than anything Coyote ever did on anything but an occasional basis.

I'd take you on anytime in a fair fight but I won't stoop to the kind of thing you seem to think is fun.

This is not a threat. It’s a promise.

I am not an ideologue, Cappy

My definition of empowerment also involves less regulations. But this is the last thing corporate apologists want. They only want to get rid of those regulations that help the ordinary person such as UI or the 40 hour week or environmental protection. But they sure want to keep all those corporate regulations, like corporate law, patent law, banking law, etc. Social democracy is necessary as long as power rests with the corporations. As I have stated before, several times, social democratic reforms were the compromise extracted in exchange for keeping the corporate system. Human need has to come before greed or creed. Get rid of the regulations that create the corporate system then you can get rid of most of the the other regulations. See http://www.mutualist.org/ for more information along this line...

Anarcho

Good Point. I'll give you that. Sometimes we can be a little hypocritical. I wasn't with you until you brought up the patents! We don't want the laws that impede business, but we sure want the laws that protect business!

I like that. I guess it comes down to choosing between two evils. I hate government, everybody knows that. The Tories give business the most flexibility and that is why I park my vote with them.

Gavin

You meant what I said to a tee. I mentioned how it didn't matter what Canada did because we were "outsourcing" our emissions to China.

You replied with that verbage about how you only care about happens within Canada.

Give it up Gav.

Can you not read?

The US has never signed KYOTO. We have. They are doing something and have done something about their greenhouse gas emissions. We haven't. That's why were hypocrites and ought to tend to our own business before we go off criticizing anything else. Context and the whole thought is everything.

Understand.

Not only are you rude and vulgar, can't seem to get my name right, but you are also, apparently, stupid. Either that or drunk. And you're still incapable of having a civil discussion with.

This started out with the

This started out with the guy writing about Gordon Campbell and wife having a lot of shares and now is a discusssion on most other things. Same two or three attacking each other. I'm right! No your not! Maybe a couple of guys should start their own blog or something so the rest of us can actually read the articles, and possibly make comments ON the subject.

Graf all for shutting BC down.

Here is a little snip from Market Watch in the states,for their complete story, the site address is on the bottom of this post. Garf , Separate to this story, the states are going to build 40-60 ethanol plants, approximately 40 of these plants are going to be powered by coal, and here in BC we were going to build 2 rinky dink little power plants, big bloody deal. This whole bull sh!t thing is reminding me of the Avro Arrow sham.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/california-moves-quickly-block-new/story.aspx?guid=%7BF5E4FC79-220C-41D1-84EC-CEFD87139FD5%7D

DPL

There's not too much of a story behind the shares Gordon and his wife happen to have is there? H.A.D. Oliver has already seen to that. Now perhaps, if Ted Hughes was still conflict on interest commissioner we might have something to talk about; but he's not.

I posted two or three articles about which there could have been a reasonable discussion and have been dumped on continually by someone whose idea of contributing amounts to chewing up my name and spitting it out in several pieces, misrepresenting what I've posted and acting like an idiot when he's called on it. I've tried really hard to respond to it by doing nothing more than point out exactly what he's up to. After a while it gets tiresome. But to be lumped in with that kind of behaviour really does get my goat.

What would you like to discuss? Personally I think the Premier of this province couldn't care less what you and think of his stock holdings. You might like to discuss how lands that were once part of the property that belonged to BCRail is being split off and transferred to other forms of ownership in this province. These tranfers are not been done by public tender and sale. They are being done by Order in Council, classified as 'excess to the needs of BC Rail' - you can find the details at
http://www.qplegaleze.ca/default.htm

But you have to pay for a subscription to search the OIC database.

What did you have in mind?

Woody

I think you need to read that article again - especially the last section:

If we're going to get to 1990 levels by 2020 we'll have to get moving, right now.

Bring on the $3/litre gas.

Slap em again their Canadian,they like it.

Alcibiades says, Bring on the $3/litre gas.
You just watch , how we get short changed.

Alright Garf

Again, my friend, you are diluting yourself. I made the first post (as always) about the Premier. You're first post was an attack on me.....

Then I made a comment on my opinion on "sweat-shops". Nowhere did I insult you.

You went ahead and posted two incredibly long articles on Sweatshops, which don't belong on this board. I said at that point, you killed the thread. I was right, the only people that remained were 3-4 of us.

The discussion switched to Global Warming and I tried to have a discussion with you. I don't throw insults. I merely stated an opinion...whether you like it or not. In fact, the only time I referenced you was:

This is how you responded:

I admit that I said a couple things for my own amusement. However, you picked the fight and were the first to throw the mud.

DPL - you are right. I'll try and avoid doing this in the future. If you look at the vast majority of boards. My first point is always about the artice. Then I get attacked by a number of people includng Mr. West. Last thing I want to do is ruining your reading experience!!

Still no long term memory

You don't remember these?

wouldn't expect anything good outta Garth.

He, much like most lefties likes to point out everything (they perceive) that is wrong, yet can never offer any solutions.

Garth doesn't know what he's talking about.
He spends his time "finishing" these mysterious contracts.
He's probably a leasing agent at a rental car company.
Don't hold your breath.

Look back over your own posts

And check out the actual facts on the premier's disclosure statement. The statements he signed clearly lists his stock holdings. I don't believe Gordon Campbell ever signs anything without reading it. If he does, he's a fool.

But, be that as it may, H.A.D. Oliver has ruled that the Premier is not in violation of the current rules on conflict of interest - as he interprets them.

There is no story here.

And, How many times do I have to point out the kind of thing, from you, that I've copied and pasted above here?

Ignore what you've written if you like. It fits your MO.

I don't think the thread was killed at all, and neither does anyone else - except you.

Garf

You're right. You and I have had a long history of squabbles on this sight. In that time, I've thrown mud in your direction.

However, in my view, you've been every bit the player in our little "beef".

As it pertained to this thread, you talked as if though you were the victim. I merely said you started it.

As far as this topic goes. I find it ironic that Campbell is given grief over not holding any "green" energy shares. Wouldn't it be insider information if he did? He knows better than anybody about his eco-energy plan.....

Garf backs Ugo

G west said

Correct

Correct again

Capitalism said

Wrong, Cappy, the woody is the one advocating the Yaris, or Yaris type of vehicle. Garf I believe was more incline to back the Ugo vehicle, which incidently now comes in a station wagon model. Does any one know the name of this model.

You're still doing it -

When I call you a hypocrite it is fair comment, not name calling.

You aren't even conscious of it most of the time. Even the thing with garf/gavin etc. has been pointed out to you by several people - including ubiquitous the other day.

As I said, keep it up and I'll collect every instance of it until I have a big pile - just like the one I posted above here yesterday.

I have no problem defending my beliefs and ideas and I post all kinds of solutions that differ at least 180 degrees from the ones that you and the people in power in this province have been trying - and failing - in their facile attempts to make things better.

Like Carole Taylor and Gordon Campbell's budget as a way to address housing problems.

I believe in tolls instead of new roads and bridges; affordable housing instead of spectacles like the olympics. I'd immediately end the deductibility of corporate travel. I'd tax gasoline until it cost $3 / litre and institute a fair tax system. I could go on all day.

One deal I would do though. I'd trade you to have Coyote back here any day.

Alright...

I wasn't being literal. I had no idea you were backing the Yaris. It is the new energy efficient car. I was only using it as an example.

That's beside the point. Even if every Canadian switched to hybrids, etc. - it wouldn't dent the greenhouse gas emissions. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do our part, all I'm saying is that I actually care about the environment and most lefties do. I don't believe you can have an active plan on greenhouse gases, when those most responsible are not taking part!

I think that we need to impose sanctions on countries like China - that's not very capitalistic, is it????

As far as the board, I've posted on this forum more than any other forum at the Tyee. I usually drop in, post a couple of topics and never return to the thread. I've enjoyed some of the discussions.

DPL commented that he was mad about how the topic moved from Campbell's shares to wht it had become. Garf then blamed me. I pointed out the fact, that he killed the thread as it related to Campbell's shares, where is right, there is NO story.

I guess "killed" wasn't the right word. Though, perhaps the change of topic came too early into the article....

Garf

You bludgeoned by name first - Mayebelle???

Beyond that, I know what you believe in. I have no problems with that. I've had very pleasant exchanges with many "lefties" on the board with exception for you, Ubiquitous and Alci.

I applaud you for your beliefs. What I disrespect and have a problem with is you incapacity to see the other side of the coin.

Guys like Frank (above) may be bothered by me. However, these guys recognize the benefits of Capitalism - but then recognize the drawbacks. Most of them form a conclusion that they don't like the other side......

You on the other hand - refuse to accept any benefits of tax cuts or right-wing economic policies. Instead, you call right-wingers greedy, corrupt, selfish, blah blah blah!

I'm not backing anything

Except the truth, facts, fair treatment and equity If you want a war with China then go ahead and impose sanctions on them.

Even George Bush isn't that foolish although he apparently had to ask his Dad what 'Neocon' means.

To imply that I haven't discussed and suggested a wide range of practical and do-able solutions while you've been ranting about the fact that I'm a lefty, or a socialist or a commie or a name caller is just plain stupid.

And I'm tired of it. And if it starts again I'm going to complain to the editorial staff.

And you're still doing it:

You don't even know how to admit when you're wrong.

Just one more small item to chew on

http://www.thestar.com/article/185224

Reprinted yesterday in the Toronto Star from its original publication by the Edmonton Journal - in that bastion of free enterprise - Alberta.

It's not long - I'll post it all for you so you'll be saved the trouble of clicking on the link:

American children in districts with the lowest taxes tend to be sicker, more often sexually abused, and more likely to run afoul of the law, according to a major study conducted by the U.S.-based Every Child Matters Education Fund. Such children are also likely to be less employable as adults, the researchers found.

Conducted by Michael Petit, author of Homeland Insecurity: American Children at Risk and a former commissioner of human services in Maine, the study shows that low taxes and corresponding low spending by governments on prenatal and postnatal care, and on preschool and public education, correlate directly with poorer health, education and delinquency rates.

It would be easy for Canadians to dismiss the study, since a major component of the poor outcomes can be traced to the lack of public health care.

The number of people living in the U.S. without health insurance has risen dramatically since 2000, from 39.8 million to 46.6 million. That leads to poor pre- and postnatal care for uninsured mothers and children.

Births to unwed teen mothers also occur at a rate nearly three times that of Canada, 4.9 per cent to 1.9 per cent. And, not surprisingly, it is within this population that the worst developmental problems are concentrated.

But Petit said it's not just a question of health insurance. Other forms of social spending also tend to get cut when governments buy into the "gospel of wealth" and begin slashing taxes, the very kinds of programs that were targeted in Alberta budgets during the Klein era.

Petit said child care, foster care, social workers, preschool programs and physical activity for young children are also critical in creating healthy, productive children. And where these programs have been cut by government, the private and not-for-profit sectors have not been able to fill the gap.

"(The study) dispels ideologically driven myths that government-supported programs are ineffectual and that taxes are evil," Petit said. "It shows that some states do much better for children than others."

Petit's book is aimed at injecting children's issues into the 2008 U.S. presidential debate.

But there are important lessons for Canadians as well.

First, despite steady conservative assertions that our single-payer public health system is inefficient and in some ways deficient to that of our neighbour, the benefits to our youngest and most vulnerable are undeniable.

And second, jurisdictions that offer the lowest taxes, even if those cuts are directed to lower-income families, have a correspondingly higher incidence of health and behavioural problems, and significantly lower lifetime employment prospects.

This is an edited version of an editorial that appeared Thursday in the Edmonton Journal.

What if:

Earlier on , GLOBAL " X " was discussed ( X = either (i) COOLING or (ii) WARMING

Now, what if it was actually found to be the exact opposite to todays Junk Science Fad..ie found to be "GLOBAL COOLING"...This means our Humanoid Lifestyles were cooling the Earth's climate.

If our so -called increased greenhouse gases were doing this, what do we do ?

Reduce them in the assumption we will be " less " cool, thus "warmer" IS the norm otherwise ?

Also, if the weather is in fact cooler,and globally , what will we do ?

Answer = TURN UP THE HEAT !!! and all else that allegedly goes with it...ie more greenhouse gases.

Global Warming? Perhaps of the two choices(ie Global Cooling OR Global Warming ) the public mindset in the ad nauseum Junk Science propoganda wars lead us into envision the we simply need to " turn down the thermostat" ...ie gee we don't need any E-X-T-R-A heat...thus Junk Science creates a cause- and -effect scenario.

Then provide a so-called simple solution ie Kyoto, the old bromide of "invest in new technologies" , conspiracy theories ie who killed the 100 MPG carburetor...Al Gore LIVE ! et al

In my view and experience...Been pretty dam COLD out this PAST Fall and Winter.

Again the propogandized lean to the so called "fact" of Global "Warming" (vs Global Cooling ) serves the interests of the Junk Science cult.

That way the Junk Science-istas can more easily demonize the status - quo , inevitably resort to the "new green technology" of TAX, FINE and sign blank cheques for Gov't GRANTS...and oh yeah....let the bidding start at $ 3 /liter for greenhouse gas producing fuels.

I say quit pussy -footing....make it $5 liter tonite at midnite... and THEN we can equally expeditiously clean house faster when the reality sh!te hits the rhetoric fan.

Same old, same old.

THE COW EATS IN THE EAST , SH!TS ON THE WEST

Capitalism
My reason for buying a fuel efficient vehicle is simply due to the fact that, I also believe the price of gas is going to hit 3 bucks a liter in the near future.
Suggesting that we impose sanctions on countries like China, is simply not logical or doable. e.g. why should I pay $150 for single lever kitchen tap control made in Quebec or Ontario, when for $50 I can buy the same tap from China. Two points I want to make here first I can afford the $50. Tap , I can’t afford that eastern $150 tap. My second point how many times has it been said or written, that the East is continually screwing the west. The Chinese have never screwed me, their products are reasonably good and improving, Im going with whomever treats me the fairest and cheapest , this being the Chinese. I couldn’t give two dogs turds in Dions front yard if all the cookie, candy, auto makers, paper mills ,airplane manufactures , back east shut down tomorrow. I’ll wager the majority of people out west feel as I do.

Woody

I agree, higher fuel prices are coming! I couldn't care less who buys what car for what reason....this is a free country!

Believe it or not, I'm actually a pretty busy guy. I write these posts in a matter of seconds when I need a quick sanity break...so, I may be misleading in some of my posts.

I suggested that we impose a very marginal sanction immediately and slowly escalate the sanction as time goes by. This would a) ensure imported goods still remain cheap, b) give the developing nations time to clean up their act without impeding their growth. This would be slow and measured.

Woody, i've looked at studies and my OPINION, which this former NDP member agreed with (quoted somewhere above) - is that Kyoto isn't going to accomplish anything.

I agree that something needs to be done. If we all agree that Kyoto isn't going to work because of the emerging economies (nobody seems to disagree with me yet on that fact), why are we implementing it.

In any problem solving equation, you must consider the root of the problem. Policians are jumping to the answer for votes. The root of the problem is China (and when I say China, I mean the whole developing world).

Whether the Chinese are screwing us or not is a different matter. We are talking about global warming and they are a chief contributor.

We have two options (A) Slowly restrict trade with polluters and (B) Continue to purge China for cheap goods at the environment's expense.

We (being the western world) can't control what pollution China emits. What we can control is what we buy from them, and what we buy from them is creating explosive growth.

eastern canada not far east

Capitalism, the east that is screwing us is eastern Canada ,not the far east.

What bothers me is the

What bothers me is the 'right wing' business folks wanting to 'privatize' any Government run business. Take the Liquor Distribution Branch for example. The cry is to move it to the private sector. Yeah but only to the select few who stand to make the most money. If liquor distribution was downloaded to EVERYONE it would make sense. But here the Liberals use the LDB to garner campaign contributions from the very select few and these folks are 'rewarded' with a further discount. It is exactly the same issue with Alcan and Kemano power. BC GAS, etc. etc. He who has the gold rules and the Liberals are making sure to cross the right palms to keep ruling.

shhhhhhhh...EINSTIENS at

shhhhhhhh...EINSTIENS at work

Are you purposely trying to be funny?

Says Capitalism

The Developing world it the root of what problem?

Please, enlighten us?

Let's have a little discussion about that proposition.

errata

should be:
The Developing world is the root of what problem?

I really would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

According to Cappy

Anything that makes a buck is acceptable, no matter how much stink comes off it. He likely would have invested in human skin lampshades out of Buchenwald, if only the nazis had won......

Like he says: "Its ugly, though its reality."

According to Cappy

Anything that makes a buck is acceptable, no matter how much stink comes off it. He likely would have invested in human skin lampshades out of Buchenwald, if only the nazis had won......

Like he says: "Its ugly, though its reality."

Mr. West / Rick

Garf, i'll get to that topic on a later forum. I don't have the time right now to discuss, but would like to elaborate.

RickW - i've always been unable to comprehend these KKKampbell and KKKapitalism references - and references to the nazi's.

The more capitalistic regimes in the UK, Canada, USA, Hong Kong, etc. etc. are very multicultural and by and large accepting of different cultures, religions, races, etc.

don't be offended by the

don't be offended by the hateful remarks that these morons post. they have absolutely nothing else to say. hannibal is the worst offender, but coyote was almost as bad. they're desperate.

Oh Yeah!

Maybe we could ask a few million Mexican illegal aliens about that. The same ones who're scorned when the sing the Star Spangled Banner in Spanish.

Don't get me started.

Look who's calling folks names, El.

Coyote never once said anything remotely like the 'whole developing world is the source of all these problems' - so who's desperate Elliot?

I think when you're defending Capitalism for that kind of a statement - in the light of evidence even you can't ignore - that the real seat of desperation is a lot closer to your own locale than the Coyote's.

In fact, Frank and I were comparing notes the other day and we came to the conclusion that you were probably the single most desperate person we’d ever encountered. Moreover, the one who showed the least evidence of ever having posted a single rational comment here at Tyee. In our opinion. Even Capitalism isn't that bad. You hold the patent on hateful my friend.

This baby's got legs

An Inconvenient Truth just won. The awesome power of PR is going to cost us now. They should be looking at two-stroke engines that power millions of motorcycles and tuk-tuks but it will probably mean three bucks a litre, the economy will slow and it might last a while.

On the horizon is hope. Keep the home fires burning:

Russian Scientists Forecast Global Cooling in 6-9 Years

MosNews

Global cooling could develop on Earth in 50 years and have serious consequences before it is replaced by a period of warming in the early 22nd century, a Russian Academy of Sciences’ astronomical observatory’s report says, the RIA Novosti news agency reported Friday.

Environmentalists and scientists warn not about the dangers of global warming provoked by man’s detrimental effect on the planet’s climate, but global cooling. Though never widely supported, it is a theory postulating an overwhelming cooling of the Earth which could involve glaciation.

“On the basis of our [solar emission] research, we developed a scenario of a global cooling of the Earth’s climate by the middle of this century and the beginning of a regular 200-year-long cycle of the climate’s global warming at the start of the 22nd century,” said the head of the space research sector.

Khabibullo Abdusamatov said he and his colleagues had concluded that a period of global cooling similar to one seen in the late 17th century — when canals froze in the Netherlands and people had to leave their dwellings in Greenland — could start in 2012-2015 and reach its peak in 2055-2060.

He said he believed the future climate change would have very serious consequences and that authorities should start preparing for them today because “climate cooling is connected with changing temperatures, especially for northern countries.”

“The Kyoto initiatives to save the planet from the greenhouse effect should be put off until better times,” he said, referring to an international treaty on climate change targeting greenhouse gas emissions.

“The global temperature maximum has been reached on Earth, and Earth’s global temperature will decline to a climatic minimum even without the Kyoto protocol,” Abdusamatov said.

By the way; was the BC budget surplus due to the lower taxes and increased economic activity or was it just higher royalties?

Those Russian scientists

They wouldn't be the same ones that Putin is alleged to have directed to supply the
radioactive polonium-210 that was used to murder Alexander Litvinenko.

And would that be the same Russia whose government is, like Canada, a signatory to the Kyoto agreement?

Al Gore to the contrary my friend, I think you're clutching at straws on this file.

On the budget surplus question - neither

It was primarily due to the high current value of exported commodities and a last time lump sum payment from the Federal treasury. You already know that though, don't you?

In any case, don't worry, the Olympics will take care of whatever part of the surplus is left by 2010.

I have to ask a giant "SO

I have to ask a giant "SO WHAT?" if your premier owns a few shares in some companies. Many people do. I own some in some of the same companies myself.

Oh, and just for the record and for the bedwetting tree huggers, what the article refers to as "TransAlta...the marketing energy giant..." is also providing most of the money for wind power research in this country right now. Who do you think owns the wind farms in the Crowsnest Pass? I know these things as I used to work for them until I retired.

T-man

nice try alcy. coyote

nice try alcy. coyote called anyone who disagreed with him a brownshirt, nazi or fascist. hannibal's comments are even more pathetic. and anytime you lefties run out of cliche-ridden diatribes you resort to calling others neo-cons. it makes you all look very ridiculous and desperate, which i would be to if i were third in all the polls and destined to stay in opposition forever.

Desperate

oooo we're so desperate. Gee whiz, whatever will I do if Jack Layton doesn't become prime minister???

Keep thinking about those great days back in the 1980s when the Cons won, it was only 20 years ago. Sure seems to take a long time for the 2nd party in a 2 party state to win doesn't it?

How long you been at it? 139 years? I'm sure you'll be #1 in another 200 years or so.

Cappy, still hoping you're going to start that dismantling government party. I give capitalism about 3 hours upon completion...

If I weren't so busy

I'd take some time to collect a few of your precious gems for comparison El. But, given the fact I am, I'll just say that you and hannibal make lovely bookends - one for the right, the other for the left.

One small difference, when I've pointed out his diatribes, hannibal has always backed down and apologized.

You - never.

By the way El, I'm not in favour of censorship - just equal treatment for all with respect to the rules.

In any case, every time you come in off the wing with your head down I'm gonna point it out until we have some equity and a lot more real discussion.

Frank

C'mon - I am for small government. Not no government. I believe I was compared to Tommy Douglas once because of my views on US healthcare - after I discussed my experience in New Orleans.

I believe in government - just not to the degree you guys do. Like I've said - to protect basic civil liberties, safety and foreign policy.

Throw in some patent and trademark protectionism, while you are at it.....

whatever g. you get more

whatever g. you get more boring daily.

And Who compared you to Tommy Douglas

This is going to be good, capitalism.

Who made that comparison and where?

go to bed garth. you've got

go to bed garth. you've got a full day of blathering on the tyee tomorrow.

And what do you call anyone who disagrees with you?

Bit of a hypocrite I'd say Elliot. Why not just once pretend you have real thoughts and ideas and stop spouting slogans?

You might actually convince me you're not just a joke.

Tommy Douglas

That was me. I told Cap he sounded like Tommy Douglas once after he got his hospital bill from New Orleans.

Anyway Cap, the thing is you're for small government because you want government to only be strong enough to enforce the rules a capitalist system requires. Everything else to you is a waste.

Well, I'm for small government too then, just that my small government would have different priorities than yours.

Actually I wouldn't fight against your small government at all. Capitalism without all the government intervention needed to buy off the populace would have a very short lifespan.

I had a feeling about that

Sounded a bit tongue in cheek to me - and pretty funny. Thanks Frank.

The big problem with global capitalism is exactly what you're pointing out Frank. Right now the parallels with the golden age of the late 19th century are uncanny - along with a big dose of the irrational exuberance of the Twenties.

Essentially the fundamentals of the American-run world economy have been turned on their heads. We now have a system wherein, instead of a healthy economy driving asset values, asset values are propping up a hollow economy.

It simply Will not last. The only questions now are:

(1) What will bring the whole thing crashing down? and,
(2) How badly will the vast majority (to use nightbloom's favourite phrase) of the people who will be victimized by the crash, when it comes, be hurt? and,

(3) Given the mess we have made of the natural ecology into the bargain, is a recovery, on the other side of the crack-up, possible at all?

I think I'd vote yes on question 3. Unless your trip back to the prairies has changed your perspective Frank, I'd have put your answer to question 3 as a No.

Correct?

why would i bother alcy?

why would i bother alcy? you clowns label everyone that disagrees with you a neo-con fascist no matter what they say. i prefer to point out how pathetic and naive you people are.

Workers uniting under a small government

Just imagine the CN workers unted under a small government without having the RCMP to enforce the capitalist agenda. Imagine that for any employee group that has had enough from an unscrupulous employer. You know Frank I think you might be right. Let's go with capitalism for true democracy for everyone.

Pathetic and naive

Same here Elliot, no matter what anyone says you label them with a one-liner and never actually engage in anything resembling a discussion. So why bother.

G, Correct.

Elliot - That simply is not true

And if you think it is, you're actually dumber than your posts indicate.

Skywalker

The point is that I bet most people think there are parts of the whole government-societal structure they could do without. I'd be quite happy to remove the RCMP from labour-management relationships for example.

Government is often just the strong arm of capitalism. I'm all for that being weakened or dismantled altogether. Ergo, I believe in small government more than the guys on the Right whose idea of smaller government means lower taxes and less social programs.

Why I show up here less and less

HI Tyee Editor:

Just wanted to say the back and forth jabs above is the reason I am coming to this site less and less.

I like sharing ideas (good and bad ones), but not name calling. Then its my job and everyone else's to decide to evaluate the ideas.

Thankfully it is easy to skip the taunts and misdirection!

Cheers,

Gavin

For the first time in recent memory, I agree with you. We are heading for disaster. I've prepared myself for it.

The American juggeraut has continue to expand on credit. For every dollar deposited, the bank turns around and lends it 8 different ways.

I spend a fair bit of time in the US and it is easy to spot running ads for absolutely bizarre personal financing schemes. Americans keep finding new ways to borrow. Meanwhile, both personal and government debt continues to rise!

Well - guess what?? At some point, they'll be unable to find new and creative ways of re-financing and this debt is going to have to be paid back.

You'd enjoy reading about the yen carry trade and China's currency fixing practices. You may have heard about both, but understanding the economics behind each is fascinating!

We are headed for disaster! Canada is doing it right. America is doing it wrong. You'll note i've NEVER been an apologist for GW Bush. Though, we are so levered to the American economy - if it goes down, we go down with it!

You may take me for a wreckless trader. I'm not. I trade 20% of my non-house wealth. 50% is tied up in long-term, dividend paying non-cyclical stocks - banks - and three of my favourites - Altria, Anheuseur Busch and General Dymanics. You can always count on people to drink and smoke - and governments to find ways to spend on "defense" - offense!

The remainder of my wealth is tied up in Gold. Like I said, we are heading for disaster. There is a very good chance our paper currency is going to be worth nothing. Gold can go up, gold can go down, but it can't go away!!

What is money anyway? All we do in this day in age is transfer credits around. We transfer "credits" to our employees' bank accounts, they transfer those "credits" to their mortgage provider, credit card company, etc. I barely hold more than $100 cash at a time!

We've come to rely on a system of fictitious numbers and electronic bank accounts. Think about that. My bank account has more numbers in it than yours! Meanwhile, those magical digits have been turned around and sent to 10 lenders - who inturn pay interest in the form of more credits....

It's going to collapse someday. Maybe not in my life time, but probably. I'll play the game while I can - but believe me when I say I am prepared for the worst.

If you keep making intelligent comments like that Gavin, I might grow a little respect for you. It is not out of Frank's capacity to make reasonable comments. It shouldn't be out of yours.

Great site..

Gavin - et. al. If you are interested in the foolish of capitalism - read the articles from this site. They send me an article every day. I start every morning on the "throne" with my blackberry - reading it. Very interesting site.

http://www.dailyreckoning.com/

Dear Freebear. I agree with you. I'll make an effort to slow down on the jabs. Part of the reaon why I love coming to this site is because of diversity. By trade, I'm really only surrounded by like-minded right wingers - some with too much money!

I come to this site to see different perspectives - many of which have inspired great investment decisions - whether you believe it or not...

But...but Cappy

I really hate to say this Capitalism but isn't all the gloom and doom you are so worried about just a product of the American free enterprise system and the Canadian's willing ness to hitch themselves to the same wagon. Are not we in BC headed in the same direction with a sell off of our resources for a quick gain and spending the money on stuff not related to "investing in people".

Who has controlled the direction of the U.S throughout its history but a succession of leaders who all subscribe to the same flawed ideology? The same could be said for Canada.

So before you start talking about Russia and China and North Korea saying that the other extreme is also a failure let me say that there are reasonable balances between the two. Are you possible beginning to see the light?

Freebear

In the words of the chief of the Nez Perce, "I will fight no more, forever"

I will try not to make any personal attacks on anyone

And yet you still don't get it about respect - do you?

The question here is your lack of respect for:
(a) me, since you still don't take the absolute minimum of trouble to address me properly - it's G West; G is fine too - your point about Maybelle was a non sequitur since we were in a time at Tyee in those days when there was no enforcement of the rules - nowadays, given whats happened to coyote, the rules are apparently important and I've been bending over backwards to play by them. Furthermore, it was very interesting to see how offended you were that someone might think you were a woman - that's actually the real reason - in my view, that you changed your name.

I'd like to think no one has a clue about my sex and that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference. It's just a handle - my ideas are what's important - along with my knowledge and my commitment to the truth.

I think you're improving - and for that I give you credit:
(b) but for the idea that what works for you as an elitist member of this culture will not, can not, work for the 90 - 95% of the population who deserve respect and fairness too…not so much. You still have work to do. What you're after is a chain-letter type of society. You and your blackberry culture depend, at bottom (and that wasn't meant as a pun) on the idea that you can enjoy a life of essential leisure while you top up your investments with nice streams of passive income. It won't work and that's why I keep trying to point out the disconnect between your passive aggressive style of life which denies the benefits of real humanity to the vast majority of the people on this earth. It's the only way you can continue on the throne (and this time it is meant as a pun) while little people labour in the forests, mines and sweatshops of the world to keep you there.

It's over, maybe not today, but it's coming.

G.

Freebear is right. I don't agree with you on very much, but I do owe you more respect than i've given you. I'm atleast partly responsible for his feelings - and I don't want to take away someone elses pleasure in coming to this site - to discuss topics which really aren't discussed in the mainstream, meetings, lunch, the coffee shop etc.

I can see how you've developed this impression. I have said time and time again that life keeps getting easier. However, I post here frequently because I am passionate about these issues. I also don't have standard work hours. I constantly shift between my business, personal investments and time here and other places!

You also don't realize how hard I worked during my 20s. I lived in 4 cities between the US and Canada - spent about 250 nights a year in a hotel - working an average of about 13 hours/day.

I loved doing it, but believe me when I say I didn't win a lottery. I've worked my way into this position. I received an decent little inheritance a long while back - enough for a down payment, nothing more.

So - I don't wake up at 5AM catch the opening of the market, sit at home in my underwear all day sit on a boat load of money. It is a 24/7 lifestyle - where work, personal time and investments all jive.

No!

No. It makes no difference who owns the assets. The mechanisms are in place to be successful in Canada. Take BC Rail for example. It is still operated - now more efficiently. This creates additional tax revenue and allows the government to focus on priorities - not running businesses which it is terrible at.

The economy is changing. Technology is replacing labour. Nationalizing things makes no sense. Let's not even move into the discussion about competing globally.

The world is just too complicated!

And for a minute there I saw a glimmer of reason

It's quite alright Capitalism. It was as I expected. Even you comment about BC Rail was as expected completely incorrect.

Capitalism a failure - not a success

And furthermore I don’t care. Just like I don’t care if you’re a man or a woman – it is your ideas and how cogently you defend them and the way you understand the world works and the value you put on human beings and not money and things and status and pleasure that matter to me.

You want to earn my respect then admit that capitalism, as it is presently constituted is a snowballing failure that is not changing. If you still want the stuff and don’t care about the consequences then just admit it. I’ve got no problem with that – but don’t masquerade as a public spirited individual and someone who pretends to care about his fellow man.

Alberta has a system in place where new oil sands producers only pay a 1% royalty to the province until all their costs are recovered. At the same time we have a welfare system where poor people who get an increase in funding from one branch of government are having it grabbed back dollar for dollar. You tell me which system is fair and equitable?

You tell me who is encouraged to be frugal and efficient and keep their costs under control?

And then tell me that capitalism has anything to do with helping people who really need assistance?

This is a meaningless anecdote Capitalism. I would probably best you and I know there are folks on a beach on the coast of Bangladesh tearing apart the hulks of bulk oil carriers with their bare hands who could teach either of us a big lesson about work. But they'll never get to because they won't live out of their 20s.

To tell me you work hard and in the same breath not acknowledge the humanity of the, what is it, 5.5 billion people on this earth who are nothing more than ciphers in a capitalistic shell game is not disrespecting me. It's disrespecting yourself and the system you pretend is working.

It's not working, it's failing big time. It's failing because one man, Bill Gates, has a more assets than many countries - and that's just one example.

So, I don't want to hear your justifications for your own selfish lifestyle. I want you to see why you cant' continue to live an believe the things you do and not be a moral criminal.

Sorry. By the way, I'd be happy to call you Cappy or C, just let me know. Capitalism - at 9 letters - seems a bit much to me.

You can call me anything you want...

* Look at unemployment rates in socialistic vs. capitalistic countries. There is taking care of those who need it.

* Look at poverty levels in France vs. USA

* Look at the opportunities for wealth creation within this country, the US, etc. Go and compare that to Sweden - where entrepreneurialsm doesn't exist.

* Look at the product innovation in Japan, USA and Hong Kong - the real capitalistic countries.

* Look at the pharmaceuticals, drugs, etc. that is achieved through public market financing.

Capitalism is beautfiul! Sure, there are one-off's. At least the youth aren't rioting in the streets! I admit, when I do things, its for my family. While the intentions may not always be whole, we employ a couple dozen very happy employees. Garth, I'd challenge you to find anywhere I've said that there are humanitarian intentions behind true capitalists. The most extreme capitalists (which believe me I'm not) look at humans as little more than commodities.

However, jobs are created, innovation is acheived and a system is created - where 99% of the people have the ability to thrive. We have to do better with the other 1% and we continue to do better.

Cappy is fine.

Quote:The most extreme

that's like saying ...I'M A LITTLE BIT PREGNANT

anyone calling themselves a Kapitalist knows that,someone must lose so that you can GAIN.

Kapitalists are so full of SH!TE !

Are you sure this is the way you want to go?

So, Cappy it is then.

Are you sure you want to get into this? Lawyers never, believe me, ask questions or bring up subjects if they don't know the answers first.

I will slowly and methodically take you apart if you start this conversation in the way you just have. You do not have a leg to stand on. It is not a one-off when Cuba’s health outcomes and literacy rates are better than those in the USA. The great avatar of market capitalism is a hollow man, Cappy, and we aren’t, sadly, far behind.
I'll start, just for the moment with these statistics from the World Health Organization - the link is here:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthy_life_table2.html

The data, briefly summarized to make the point is as follows:

Data set: Healthy Life expectancy (population)
1. Japan 74.5 years
2. Australia 73.2
3. France 73.1
4. Sweden 73.0
12. Canada 72.0
24. United States 70.0

Now, we can continue this little game but believe me, by the time we get to crime rates and infant mortality you are going to be crying uncle.

I'd rather you just deal with the anomaly between indecent royalty rates and welfare claw backs right here at home.

If you insist upon putting yourself out there for a public flogging, don’t say I didn’t warn you.

On Poverty

I can't summarize this in a few words. It's a Pdf and it's excellent. Have a close read and then reconsider your ideas about France and poverty, relative to the USA.

http://www.undp-povertycentre.org/pub/IPCPoverty_in_Focus009.pdf

Just another in what's going to be a big pile of evidence

B.C. Rail and missed opportunity

A great example of how privatization hurts citizens IMO.

For example B.C. Rail's run to Whistler was quickly snapped up by Rocky Mountain Railtours as soon as it became available. RMR is a smart, well-run company. Clearly they think there's a profit to be made there.

But our gov't, rather than keep the run, and find a way to make it work, sold it. Now any potential profits will go to RMR, instead of into the gov't coffers. Just another example of the false economy that hurts the people of B.C.

Further proof that Kevin Falcon should go back to the real estate biz before he completely screws up our transp. infrastructure.

interesting little story just in from Wall Street:

Stocks retreated sharply Tuesday after a sell-off in China rattled markets worldwide and data on durable goods orders came in well below expectations.

After reaching record highs on Monday, China’s stock markets reversed course drastically on Tuesday, plummeting in one of the biggest sell-offs in their history.

Analysts said there was no single reason for the plunge, but many have cautioned for months that the country’s volatile, roller-coaster market, which has been soaring almost nonstop for more than a year, appeared vulnerable.

The plunge in Chinese stocks had global reverberations. Stocks fell across Europe, with the major indexes in France, Germany and Britain all dropping more than 2 percent. In the United States, trading got off to a bad start and stayed that way. At midday, the Dow Jones industrial average was down more than 170 points, or about 1.4 percent. The broader Standard and Poor’s 500-stock index fell about 1.5 percent, and the Nasdaq composite was off more than 2 percent.

The benchmark Shanghai Composite index, which had passed the 3,000 milestone on Monday after the weeklong Chinese New Year holiday, shed 268 points, or 8.8 percent, to close at 2,771.79

The smaller Shenzhen Component index fell even further, dropping 797.87 points, or 9.3 percent, to 7,790.82.

Share prices also tumbled elsewhere in Asia, although not nearly as much. Hong Kong’s benchmark Hang Seng index dropped 412.94 points, or 1.8 percent, to 20,095.01. In Japan, the Nikkei fell 95.43 points, or 0.5 percent.

The wave of selling then spread to Europe, and later to the United States, where a government report showed that orders of durable goods — big-ticket items that include washing machines, airplanes and semiconductors — declined more than expected in January. That hastened the sell-off on Wall Street.

Chinese share prices have swung wildly in recent months, rising on huge interest from largely inexperienced retail investors in soaring stock prices, then falling on stern Chinese government warnings about “blind optimism” in the market.

The unmistakable trend, however, has been up. Share prices on the major Chinese indexes climbed more than 100 percent last year, ending a five-year stock slump.

It is too early to tell whether the decline today constitutes a healthy correction in China or the opening act of a broader collapse.

Some analysts said that rumors about new taxes on capital gains spooked some investors. Particularly hard hit were more liquid, big-cap stocks, which weigh heavily on stock indexes.

“It’s obvious that a large amount money was being pulled out of the market from big-cap stocks,” said Wu Jianxiong, an investment strategist at Guotai Junan Securities in Shanghai.

Stephen Green, a senior economist and stock market analyst working in Shanghai for Standard Chartered Bank, said the market fundamentals had not changed drastically in recent weeks, adding that the stock markets in China tended to be volatile, particularly after reaching all-time highs.

“People are just on edge,” he said. “It’s very possible in two weeks we’ll be right back up there.”

guess we'll have to see if that last paragraph is the truth - or just more corporate spin.

Is this really a surprise?

What do you expect? After all, in Canada as well as in America, corporations and gov't are merely quid-pro-quo whorehouses sold to the highest bidder. When the gov't needs illegal wire-taps, Verizon and Sprint allow them secret rooms to listen in on calls. When Haliburton (and KBR) need more revenue, the gov't hands out no-bid contracts. When the gov't dislikes literature, Wikipedia bans the book "America Deceived". We The People had our gov't sold out from beneath us.
Final link (before Google Books caves to pressure and drops the title):
America Deceived (sample chps)

For the author

I think the piece would have been stronger if you had mentioned how many shares Campbell holds and their value to put it in context for the reader. Also a comment from Campbell would have been interesting.

Avoiding the press

Unfortunately, politicians can't be compelled to answer legitimate questions from accredited press. A situation that only benefits politicians with things to hide or keep low-profile. Democracy needs a mechanism to ensure accountability more than once every four years. It would be uncomfortable for the elected, but a boon for the electorate.