For Tories, Cities Aren't Sexy
Harcourt report too hot to handle, maybe for Grits, too.
Mike Harcourt: Devolve power
Back around the dawn of the new millennium, cities became a hot topic in federal politics.
The federal Liberals, under Jean Chrétien and then Paul Martin, brought forth a task force on urban issues, a new urban agenda and a new deal for cities.
Cities were sexy.
Then Stephen Harper's Conservatives formed a minority government without winning a single seat in any of Canada's three largest cities.
Suddenly, cities were not so sexy.
Harper didn't talk about urban agendas. The Conservatives were focused on their five priorities, only one of which -- getting tough on crime -- could be said to have anything to do with cities.
But some of the Liberal initiatives continued to putter along, sort of like a windup toy that keeps on going long after its owner has gone off to do other things.
Harcourt's ambitious report
There was, for example, the External Advisory Committee on Cities and Communities, chaired by former B.C. premier and Vancouver mayor Mike Harcourt.
Created by Martin in February 2004 as part of that new deal for cities, the committee was supposed to develop "a long-term vision on the role that cities should play in sustaining Canada's quality of life by looking at such issues as the environment, competitiveness and social cohesion."
As if that wasn't enough, the committee was also asked to "enrich the discussion of policy options by bringing regional and issue-specific expertise to the table."
The committee went out, talked to people from across the country, commissioned research and generally did a lot of vision developing and discussion enriching.
Then, five months after Harper's Conservatives took over from Martin's Liberals, the committee handed in its final report.
The report, From Restless Communities to Resilient Places: Building a Stronger Future for All Canadians, didn't get the big splash the Liberals had planned for it. It was quietly posted on the government's website, was mentioned in one or two media reports, and that was it.
It's been read by a small circle of policy wonks, many of whom think it deserves greater exposure.
"I think there are some things in there that probably should have been at least considered and debated," says Loleen Berdahl, senior researcher at the Canada West Foundation. "I certainly have never heard debate about it at all."
Power shift to local advised
The report looks at a lot of issues, including immigration, transit, urban sprawl, sustainability, aboriginal communities and urban aboriginals. Although many of its recommendations have to do with big cities -- 80 per cent of Canadians live in urban areas -- it also looks at smaller communities and at urban-rural links.
And it makes some politically difficult recommendations that might not be too welcome even to a government that likes to talk about urban agendas.
The report warns that Canada faces "an acute imbalance in resources and decision-making power" that hampers municipalities' ability to deal with the increasing pressures put upon them.
It calls for "a profound transformation in the federal government's role" from a controlling force to an "enabling, deft and integrated" presence.
It's certainly not the first time Ottawa's been asked to pass powers -- and the resources to deal with them -- down to the local level. But the problem is urgent: although municipalities provide some of the most fundamental government services, from road repair to garbage hauling, "the municipal level of government is also the level with the least degree of autonomy, both in the authority to make decisions and the resources to act on them."
More than 90 per cent of municipal revenues come from property taxes, which, the report says, "do not increase automatically as the economy grows, as is the case of income and sales taxes."
Massive infrastructure deficit
The result is "a growing infrastructure deficit" -- cities have been putting off needed improvements to water, sewage, roads and bridges. The report cites a Statistics Canada study that concluded that three-quarters of all "components of infrastructure" in the country were more than halfway through their expected lifespan. The average wastewater treatment facility has seen almost two-thirds of its life cycle.
Between $40 billion and $125 billion is needed to close this deficit, the report says.
Federal revenue-sharing deals that give municipalities GST relief and some gas tax revenues are a start, the report says, but what is needed is a "double devolution" of responsibilities -- and financial resources -- from the federal government to the provinces and then from the provinces to municipalities.
"We have spoken to leaders from many communities, of all sizes, from all parts of the country, and on one point there is complete unanimity: increased local responsibility without increased local resources is a recipe for disaster," the report says. "Communities must have the means as well as the authority to set their own priorities."
The report makes a number of other recommendations on the need for co-ordinated policies that emphasize sustainability, another buzzword that, until recently, was not heard much from the Conservatives.
Without an urban agenda, however, the report has turned into what Simon Fraser University political scientist Kennedy Stewart calls a "shelf-bender."
'Sank into oblivion'
Stewart says he admires the report's ideas, but doesn't think they have much chance of being implemented by a Harper government.
Cities are "about issue number 95 on the Conservative agenda since very few of their ridings are essentially urban," he said.
The idea of devolving powers and revenues to municipal governments comes up every decade, but doesn't go anywhere, Stewart said.
"The problem is, when the federal government devolves any powers to the municipalities, the provincial government just takes it back on the other end. So the federal government gives the municipality $1 million and then the provincial government decides to not transfer that much to the same municipality.
"In a way, the federal government is just giving extra money to the province."
Peter Oberlander, emeritus professor of regional planning at the University of B.C., said the report's strength is its emphasis on a cohesive, consistent approach to urban issues.
Oberlander, who served as federal deputy minister for urban affairs in the Trudeau era, has seen plenty of urban initiatives over the years.
"There's a difference between bits and pieces and a policy which makes sure that all these initiatives support each other," he said. "I would argue that what we need is something where the components as a coherent whole are more than the sum of the parts."
Still, Oberlander said, the report "kind of sank into oblivion because the government had changed."
Harcourt holds out hope
A spokesman for Infrastructure Canada, the federal department responsible for the report, said it has "served to inform consultations" on infrastructure funding, but said nothing about the report's broader recommendations.
Harcourt, however, is optimistic that the recommendations may someday turn into policy.
"They're looking at it," he said.
He said he doesn't think the change in government has necessarily doomed the report.
After all, Harcourt argued, the idea of decentralized decision-making fits with Harper's political philosophy.
The report, he said, contains "strong arguments that would appeal to a Tory soul."
There's the appeal to get decision-making out of Ottawa.
There's the argument that if communities and cities aren't sustainable, they aren't going to be competitive internationally.
And there's the report's discussion of the interdependence between Canada's cities and its small and rural communities. Despite the increasing population shift to cities and the pressure on urban areas, the report isn't just about big cities. It talks about all sizes of communities and what it calls "the importance of place."
"We'll see how it's taken up," Harcourt said. "I'm going to continue to push the recommendations."
Where are Liberals?
Loleen Berdahl, the researcher from the Canada West Foundation, said she's happy to hear that, but she still thinks that taking action on the report -- specially the "double devolution" recommendation -- is going to be a huge political job.
"The Harper government's had such trouble dealing with the provinces just to sort out the quote-unquote fiscal imbalance that if you were to try to address another fiscal imbalance and tie it to money to the municipalities, politically it could just be such a struggle," she said.
"I don't blame anyone for not picking up that ball and running with it. The work involved would be tremendous."
Nor do the federal Liberals appear to have rediscovered their love of cities. Berdahl noted that she hasn't seen any comment from the official Opposition on the Harcourt report.
"If urban issues were still a key issue to them, wouldn't someone have raised it?"
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RickW
5 years ago
98%
of Canadians are said to live in urban settings.
Rather than focus on gaining more revenues for the cities, the focus should be on some sort of diaspora. The structure of cities has plainly shown that there is no "economy of scale".
Grumpy
5 years ago
Harcourt - you got to be kidding!
Harcourt is a waste of time and he hasn't a clue what he is talking about. He's a lawyer not a planner and his support of the Millennium Line and RAV point to his political instincts!
Here is a guy, not smart enough to build a fence or railing on his sun deck when its perched on a steep cliff! This is not a cheap shot, but insight on a man who is supposed to be some kind of 'guru' on city planning.
Mike got a political plum and public sympathy keeps him in the limelight, really, hasn't a clue, nor is he willing to listen to reason.
Anything concerning cities, penned by Mikey should be treated with great caution.
Fiat lux
5 years ago
While the neocons may not
While the neocons may not find cities "sexy", they're doing their utmost to wreck genuine private enterprise and the family farm system and force all possible numbers into cities, where they have to buy everything for survival and jack up the fraudulent GDP numbers.
This was one of the main reasons and results of millions of Mexicans forced off their lands by NAFTA and into obscene megacities, like Mexico City, and more, all over the world.
If the GATS and NAU become realities, the plan is for the importation of "cheap labour", to replace local Canadian workers, stripping them of their life support systems and forcing them into cities.
We're just waiting for the time, when our low bidder road maintenance contractors start importing Mexicans for snow removal.
Sometimes, looking at the conditions of our roads, it seems, they already have.
This forced depopulation is well proven in the withdrawal of services from rural areas, resulting in the large drop of school children, etc. so they can close more schools every year and force children, as young as 5-6 years old, onto long bus trips, intolerable for the children and parents.
Which shows the intellect behind their warped economic theories.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.
Jeffrey J.
5 years ago
Harcourt accomplished leader
Thank you again Tyee and Mr. Barrett for letting us know about this report. The failure of our mainstream media monopoly to provide Canadians with balanced news is astounding. Surely this report, chaired by well known and well loved Mike Harcourt, was newsworthy. Funded by Canadian taxpayers, why wouldn't we be told about this matter, espeically since its about cities, where 80% of Canadians live. Great article.
Grumpy
5 years ago
Into the quicksand of hell
Ed, I think you are dead right and I think the day of reckoning is coming sooner than any neocon thinks. Our pyramid of poncie schemes masquerading as tax revenue to fund dubious political projects, instead of in your face taxation to fund the social network (even the Greeks and Romans taxed the wealthy to fund food for the poor).
This is the end, my friend, the end!
ubiquitous
5 years ago
you're right Grumpy...
...that's not a cheap shot, that was down right classless.
Grumpy
5 years ago
You see a Harcourt supporter
Here we have a man without the foresight to plan for the future, yet somehow he has the foresight to plan for better cities in the future. Once a pig in the trough, always a pig in a trough.
Harcourt was vastly overrated as a politician, as all former Vancouver mayors seem to be, yet we are stuck with him like a barnacle on a keel.
Ed is on the right path, as we destroy the small towns and force everyone to come to the big cities, the big cities consume themselves. Best we bring great tax advantages for those who wish to live in the smaller regional cities to try to restart their economies!
Fiat lux
5 years ago
Well, Grumpy, with millions
Well, Grumpy, with millions of others, I fought the Soviets for 45 years, but nobody could foresee that they would collapse with a whimper.
All dictatorships and empires, and all systems based on "competition" must and will self destruct through their own corruption, as their ever increasing energy demands to maintain their powers force them to burn out.
The question is,in what way the collapse will take place? Like the nazis, or the Soviets?
Instead of giving up, we should concentrate on how to pick up the pieces after the inevitable collapse, and trying to prevent mass destruction.
We can survive for long periods, out here in the boondocks, but what worries me, are the possible armed gangs of city people, stripped of their daily needs by the collapse, roaming the countryside, looking for food, etc.
We should, and can, have systems in place to prevent total disaster and lifeboats to save what we can.
Ed Deak.
ubiquitous
5 years ago
Not really Grumpy
I wouldn't consider myself a Harcourt supporter even though I think that he unfairly took the fall for bingogate. That said, I think that you have a lot to add to the transit debate Grumpy but when you mock a man for a near death experience, it says more about your character that about any knowledge that you may have on a subject. I remember a while back you went on about how "they" don't listen to you as meetings or on radio call in shows. I wonder if it's because you go in guns and insults blazing.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Okay
Not a terrible article from the Tyee. I somewhat agree with what they have to say.
There is no doubt, that if you are concerned primarily with urban-centric issues, the Conservatives are not the party for you. They place their priorities on tax cuts, lean governments, fewer social programs and broad economic issues.
These policies tend to benefit middle to upper class workers and businesspeople, who live in the suburbs, and do not work in the social services industry.
The Tories have generally done well in the Suburbs and rural areas - not as well in the urban areas. However, in order to capture their majority, they will need to win over a bunch of the 905/604 area code minorities - or pull in the urban vote. This in addition to keeping their foothold in the suburbs (outside of Quebec).
It is pretty clear they have chosen the former strategy.
We'll see - but related to the article - it is not up to Harper to address the imbalance with the cities. He must first work with the provinces, and the provinces must then work with the cities.....
The Federal Governments role should be limited to foreign policy, ensuring some balance between the province, borders, security and the environment.....
Capitalism
5 years ago
Harcourt
He took the fall, but it was more of a mutany internally. Mr. Harcourt was like Larry Campbell to COPE. He was less ideological and wanted to build consensus. He undertook leadership of the NDP without really knowing how left wing they actually were. He clashed with many of its Sr. members, who used Bingo gate - to get their man, Glen Clark in!!
While the Harcourt era started off good, due to the benefits of the economic policies it inherited from the Socreds, it ended bad as the economy haulted. However, it was just bad. The Clark government was possibly the worst government Canada has ever seen.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Harcourt
He took the fall, but it was more of a mutany internally. Mr. Harcourt was like Larry Campbell to COPE. He was less ideological and wanted to build consensus. He undertook leadership of the NDP without really knowing how left wing they actually were. He clashed with many of its Sr. members, who used Bingo gate - to get their man, Glen Clark in!!
While the Harcourt era started off good, due to the benefits of the economic policies it inherited from the Socreds, it ended bad as the economy haulted. However, it was just bad. The Clark government was possibly the worst government Canada has ever seen.
Booker
5 years ago
booker
Grumpy wrote:
Harcourt has been involved in city-planning issues since the 1960's, long before he even ran for office. He has more knowledge about in his little finger than most of the people sitting on city council today. He's also able to work with people who don't necessarily agree with him -- not a bad trait.
Booker
5 years ago
oye
sorry, I absent-mindedly put my user name in the subject line. Sleep deprivation.
Grumpy
5 years ago
Not mocking him guys.
If I were to build a house on a cliff edge (I do live on one), I build a fence. If my sun-deck abuts against a cliff edge, I build a railing! Common sense OK.
He survived a nasty fall, but with fright, if he installed a fence, the accident would not have happened.
With planning, the same is true, you must have foresight, to plan ahead, to solve future problems. Harcourt just repeats the politically correct mantra that is expected of him. He personally insulted me when I question him oh his support on RAV. The question I ask was merely, "Why do you support a subway style metro when a much cheaper light rail line would achieve the same results, while giving the option of affordable extending the line in the future.
His answer was basically "F*** Off, I'm sick and tired of your trolley jolly types!" He never answered the question. In my book he has no foresight and lacks any credentials in the planning process.
So I'm rough on Mikey, well boys, are you just as rough on our DUI Premier?
If Harcourt retired and kept out of public affairs, then I would not mention it. But he is not and I must call into question ability to do this 'good old boys' type of job.
Grumpy
5 years ago
Cappy, we are not in the 1960's
We have had a revolution in planning in the past 20 years, yet in Canada, we know little about it.
Harcourt was one of the key players in the 'freeways' debate in the 60's, but the failure was promoting an alternative. Like Herbert, Price, and the rest, they are stuck in the 60's. it isn't going to work in the 21st century.
Vancouver is not a livable city, far from it, yet the organ grinder grinds on that it is. Livable regions is a failure, yet no one will admit it. Our regional transit planning is an utter failure - $5 billion so far spent on metro, yet there is no evidence of a modal shift!; and they want to build more?
Most politicians are wearing rose coloured glasses when it comes to planning and I have to yet meet a politician who did not fancy himself a transit expert, save one, Halsey Brandt of Richmond (and he is an engineer).
To say that Harcourt is an expert because he was a city politician is stretching thing too much. He is no more expert than I. The only difference, he gets paid a huge sum traveling the world pretending he knows lots!
Cappy, I think the Campbell government is the worst government we ever had, the NDP were just incompetent boobs.
As for planning, if we still continue to pretend we are different than the world and plan for accordingly, we will continue to be a world class laughingstock.
DPL
5 years ago
Well I guess we now know why
Well I guess we now know why Grumpy is so down on Mike Harcourt. Mild mannered Mike insulted Grumpy who spends a lot of time insulting everyone within reach. Harcourt was instramental in stopping a freeway down the main drag in Vancouver and through Stanley Park. I find it odd after watching him at city hall meetings as mayor. It wasn't his habit to insult people. When he formed government he told all the visitors. This is your house. He opened up the treaty process to anyone who botherd to go watch the proceedings. His record of public service is pretyty hard to beat.
To poke fun at someone who had an accident at his cabin , which was built according to code, is below contempt. His recovery happended because he was strong willed enough to get back on his feet.
I'll sit back and see if Grumpy spews some bile my way. But get it quite clear , I can handle any crap you push my way.Maybe it's time you found somehting else to do with your time. MAybe run for politics
Capitalism
5 years ago
Grumpy
I never said I agreed with Harcourt. I didn't agree with much about Larry Campbell. All I said is that they were less ideological than their parties.
I respected Mr. Harcourt as a person, much like I do respect Ms. James. I don't agree with any of their politics or philosophies. However, I find them to be refreshing and for the most part, respectful.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Grumpy
I never said I agreed with Harcourt. I didn't agree with much about Larry Campbell. All I said is that they were less ideological than their parties.
I respected Mr. Harcourt as a person, much like I do respect Ms. James. I don't agree with any of their politics or philosophies. However, I find them to be refreshing and for the most part, respectful.
Grumpy
5 years ago
You guys don't get it
It is so sad, you guys don't get it, but it is the sad story of Vancouver and the region, no one gets it; maybe that's why our Cnadian brethern in the East laugh at us so.
You guys put Mike on a pedestal and oh my god, do not criticize. So his cabin was built to code. I find that a man who doesn't put a railing on a porch or sun-deck when it directly on a cliff edge is stupid, code or no code. Tragically, that he fell off is directly a result of his lack of serious attention to the matter. Hindsight is 20/20 but it is foresight that is important.
As to being insulted, I've been insulted by better, but his complete unwillingness to discuss the question speaks volumes.
DPL, the downtown freeway wasn't going done the main drag, nor was it going into Stanley Park. I believe it was to go down in the vicinity of 1st Ave and continue along False Creek, through Chinatown, then along the waterfront to a future bridge or tunnel to the North Shore.
What the anti-freeway crowd lacked was the foresight to plan for a viable transit alternative, they didn't and the problem festered with politically inspired metro, including SkyTrain & RAV. SkyTrain has failed to show a modal shift and as auto congestion increased, was born the Gateway project. Again a lack of foresight, though stopping a freeway, gave birth to bad public transit and a major highways building program 30 years later!
On another note: Cappy, you find Ms, James refreshing? is that because she is going to hand Campbell's 3rd election win on a silver platter.
Stump
5 years ago
Quote:These policies tend to
Well, it's about time. I understand some of these folks don't have summer cabins... and others are forced to drive the same vehicle for years on end just to afford their Whistler season pass.
In all seriousness, is this demographic (I'd place myself in that cohort as well) the one most in need of a leg-up from government? I don't think so.
freebc
5 years ago
Jeffrey J.
Jeffrey, you think Harcourt is a great leader????
You must be kidding???
When your great leader was premier, he squandered an opportunity wrest absolute power from political parties and give it to where it should have been all the way along. The People. But no, instead he saddled us with ineffective recall legislation and unless initiative legislation which turns out to be nothing more than an expensive opinion poll because he made it so that the governing party of the day will announce it in the house and then can tinker with it until it no longer resembles what the citizens demanded in the first place or they can reject the initiative outright.
Harcourt by doing this ensured that political parties will lie cheat and steal from you and I and our kids until such time as there is a successful movement to again get the opportunity to wrest power from those parties who lust for the absolute dominance of parliment.
Thus we continue to live in Harcourt's dictatorship. And just before you think that you have entrenched rights under the charter, look again. The provinces can opt out from any part at any time using the notwithstanding clause.
No, Harcourt is a trator to those that the NDP pretends to stand up for, the 'people'.
I have zero respect for Harcourt whatsoever.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Grumpy
You tell me what Ms. James has to complain about, since the last election. Campbell has brokered deals with all public sector unions, has decreased taxes, provided surpluses, overseen rapid economic expansion, garnered great respect from first nations, increased health spending conserably, earmarked tons of money for transportation improvements, attracted all sorts of foreign investment and increased overall tax revenues. The fact is that tax revenues are higher now than they were when the NDP was in power.
You can point to (falling) commodity prices and (rising) interest rates all you want. BC is showing that it is making a good transition from these times - to new times.
As a NDP supporter, you can only point to the poverty issues so many times....most of the homelessness is due to migrants - and really falls under the responsibility of the city of Vancouver - and other municipalities.....
So - this is not the Liberals 1st term - when they could point to cuts, an economy which had bottomed, poor tourism, huge deficits......etc....
Capitalism
5 years ago
Capitalism to Grumpy
The funny part about the hypocritical left - is that the same anti-freeway (holier than thou) socialists also vehemently opposed the Canada line.
These people are against progress. In part, because they are Campbell initiatives, so they automatically hate it. Part because they don't like to see other people succeed. Part because they are miserable people that like to complain.
freebc
5 years ago
Gordo
And we must not forget the generous favours our current most beloved premier gave a few of his friends.
Specifically I cite the sale of the BCR to his benefacotors, CN Rail, who lest we forget slid a cool $107,000 into his election fund prior to the actual sale of our publicly owned asset, the BCR.
And lest anyone tell us it was a money losing proposition, I might remind those folks that the BCR was also a cash cow for many governments.
And we shouldn't foget the etreme generosity of the folks away from the GVRD who are funding that cute little extravagance called 2010 Olympic Games.
Oh my how I love being hosed by Vancouver AGAIN!
Oh yes, Gordo the magnificant....
I would be looking for help to get these shmoes out! All of them. It's time for democratic rule to come to BC/Canada. Help?
Grumpy
5 years ago
Cappy, are you business
Cappy, are you business type? Do you like high taxes? Well you must if you like the Canada line. It is bad transit ten fold. Here are the problems:
1) Subways deter ridership, as customers do not like the claustrophobic atmosphere.
2) Subways are expensive to maintain.
3) One can lose up-wards of 70% per transfer and with RAV anyone living south of the river must transfer at least once. This is especially irksome for those who used to have direct bus service to Vancouver, who now must transfer at least once.
4) The majority of ridership for any transit system comes from about 300 metres from each side of a transit line or more precisely about 300 metres around every station. RAV used inflated figures for their ridership base from about 1 km. each side of the line. This includes both Oak and Main streets. Really who is going to walk from Oak or main to catch RAV on Cambie.
5) Only a small percentage of people using airports use public transit. (RAV) Officials used the 28,000 daily workers at the airport for their ridership figures, but only about 5% live anywhere near the RAV Line.
6) Banks refused to ante up money for RAV, forcing Campbell to raid the public sector pension plans to finance RAV.
7) Automated or driver-less transit systems cost a lot to maintain, just the Expo Line costs about 60% more to maintain than Calgary's LRT line, yet Calgary's LRT carries more passengers daily.
Cappy, why do you think no one builds with SkyTrain and very few cities (unless they have the ridership, in excess of 400,000 passenger per day) build with metro. RAV's best ridership projections are 1/4 of this. RAV is nothing more than a shoddy Poncie scheme to direct tax payer monies and zoning for his political supporters!
And you call yourself a business man, how many Bre-X shares did you buy?
Capitalism
5 years ago
Grump:
Ok - you don't like RAV
I don't know this for fact, but I'll assume it is. Of course! Banks wouldn't go near this project! Why would they? It will undoubtedly be unprofitable for years. This does not make good business sense - and likely would break even - let alone be able to re-pay loans for several years.....
Does this mean we shouldn't do it? All of these welfare payments and social housing programs simply disappear. What bank would underwrite those investments....
While I believe in a more limited role of gov't than many of the commies on this site - a government, nonetheless is necessary. They build the roads, transit systems and provide the necessary services that businesses won't - because they do not generate tidy profits!!
Remember, this is an investment. Though, the profits will not be measured by profits. We will be developing the infrastructure in this great city. In fact, by involving SNC Lavalin, our costs were lessened significantly.
Stump
5 years ago
More of the same isn't
More of the same isn't progress Capitalism. We need a massive re-think of what constitutes 'progress'.
Only a fool or a worshipper of neo-con principles would think it's more concrete, more roads, less public ownership of public resources, better sweetheart deals for cronies, less accountability from government, and a focus on debatable economic markers to the exclusion of other factors.
Look at the road we're on and extrapolate where it will take us in two hundred years and tell me that's a place we want to be. Ask yourself "And then what" once in a while.
Grumpy
5 years ago
Cappy, why do banks fund LRT
Both the Irish LUAS and Nottingham LRT schemes are running at a profit, both are true P-s's and a quarter shareholder are banks.
If banks would not fund RAV, then RAV is not a P-3, they why the hell are we building it. Ah yes, I see the light, it's a Gordon Campbell project and it must be good. NOT!
DPL
5 years ago
It's simply fasinating.
It's simply fasinating. Somebody who calls himselfGrumpy, lives on a hill somewhere and seems to know more about Transit than most everyone else.
By the way, the freeway throught Vancouver was going to go throught Chinatown but so do all the main drags. And it was going to dump the traffic at the causeway to Stanly Park. The tunnel talk across to the north shore has been going on for years but nobody on the north shore seems to want it to end up there. The cost would be pretty steep as well. When the so called rapid transit overhead line was put in place, Harcourt was the mayor of Vancouver. And as the socreds didn't like him he was excluded from the event. Grace had a nasty habit of calling him Mickie. He was standing on the street with the locals watching the event. Turns out as she got bounced and he ended up as Premier the expression Mickie liked it became quite popular.
Portland has a great surface line called MAX. It has a driver and usually a conductor, it's free in the downtown core and goes like the dickens outside of the city core.The local bisinesses like it as folks get off and on to shop . Not flashy enough for the Liberals or socreds of course. A lot of folks didn't like the elevated line so when Gordo became mayor a lot of buses ended up connecting to the line. It was use it or walk. None of that mess can be directed at Harcourt. Since I no longer live in Vancouver I know little about the new system, but then again it seems a number of posters here have opinions but to be against something or someone because they didn't agree with you is rather strange. Harcourt is not in politics but does do a lot of work on different programs. One is as a Commissioner in the BC Treaty Process. The so called lefties didn't put him there. He will not accept an extension to that job.Too bad as he is liked by all parties involved
freebc
5 years ago
Harcourt's legacy
None of all that will take away from the fact that as leader of the New Bemocratic Party of BC, he proved that the politicians of this country are anything but democratic.
Shame on you Mike Harcourt!
I hope your anti-democratic acts bite your own butt.
cmcl14
5 years ago
Inaccurate
It is not true that the Tories didn't win any seats in Canada's three largest cities. Vancouver is something like Canada's 7th largest city. If you want Vancouver to be Canada's 3rd largest city, you need to include lots of Tory seats in the GVRD. Canada's third largest city is Calgary, which has nothing but Tory seats, including the Prime Minister's. Interestingly, Calgary's city councils are always decidedly liberal in their policies. Same story for Canada's fourth-largest city, Edmonton, where the local politics are decidedly left wing. Let's not assume the Tories are all country bumpkins.
darcy.mcgee
5 years ago
Tories need to win Urban; Harcourt's a joke
The Tories need very badly to win a riding in Toronto and Montreal. Inheriting one in a floor crossing doesn't count...they need to win one.
Harcourt was a disgrace and a forgotten man prior to taking a tumble of off his deck. I'm not sure why we're taking him seriously now.
darcy.mcgee
5 years ago
Vancouver doesn't count...
Tories seats in the GVRD don't count. We're just freaks out here who shoot guns, don't eat farmed salmon and vote conservative.
Perception in the east counts. That will only change with a win in Toronto or Montreal.
Grumpy
5 years ago
Well I'm no expert, but.......
DPL, if I seem to know more about modern transit than the experts, it is because I read about modern public transport. Have you ever heard of Professor of Public Transport Carmen Hass-Klau, no ~ well don't worry, neither has TransLink's planners. Yet I was told by several transit experts in the UK and England that she is a 'must' read if one wants to be current with the issues. Her four international studies set me back $500 but they are worth it. Unlike BC planners, European and UK planners are very forth coming with their opinions.
As for Portland's MAX, it is a fine system that every extension has been approved by voters! Not so here! There are no conductors on MAX, but like SkyTrain, I am sure there are fare protection people.
Harcourt could have stopped the Millennium Line if he could (he still had influence with in the NDP) but he climbed on the SkyTrain bandwagon and never got off.
Just as aside, I have made an offer, since the mid 1990's to any politician to debate the merits of SkyTrain and light rail, to date no one has accepted my offer.
During the Millennium Line debate, when I arrived at a prearranged meeting with a community group to debate SkyTrain, the then BC Transit experts walked.
We have never had nor been allowed to have a SkyTrain/metro and light rail debate, why is that? What is the SkyTrain/metro lobby afraid of? What is Campbell and Falcon afraid of? What was Clark and Harcourt afraid of?
It seems lil old me and LRT!
A very sad comment on our current sate of planning in Vancouver!
G West
5 years ago
Inaccurate
The largest Metropolitan areas in Canada, 2001 Census are:
Toronto - 4,682,900;
Montreal - 3,426,400;
Vancouver - 1,987,000;
Ottawa/Gatineau - 1,063,700;
Calgary - 951,400;
Edmonton - 937,800;
Halifax - 359,200
DPL
5 years ago
WE might wonder why no
WE might wonder why no polician wants to argue with you( Grumpy) about public transport. Maybe it's because you say that people don't like to travel in tunnels. Tell that to the folks who numbers are huge why they use the underground systems in so many cities of the world. And last time I looked MAX still had a guy in the car, and of course a diver. A lot of folks don't like the skytrain but there is little option for the riders. It has no driver because the socreds under VanDerZam got awed about something tha didn't use some nasty union drivers. The test track was still sitting there in Toronto as they decided it wasn't a go0d system.
Personally I like surface transport, trains or streetcars or trams but since we don't have them, well we use what the thinkers got us. Harcourt was not involved in the decision to build the elevated line which always reminds me of the old overhead system in the US of A. He was mayor of vancouver at the time. The opposition party, right now is working with the folks who own the E&N trying to get a system of trains to bring folks into Victoria. The tressels along the Galloping Goose trail are strong enought to support LRail,and it was the previous NDP government that made sure it was available for the future. We could go on and on bashing Harcourt and Clark and you of course would like that but it would solve nothing. we are off to England,Spain and Portugal shortly, probrably spend some time on the underground in London,, one of the places Grunpy says folks wouldn't like to travel in. Maybe by the tine we return grumpy will have found another hobby horse to flog
alive
5 years ago
Why are we bashing
Why are we bashing Harcourt?
Was it he, who received a bag of money from a realtor (with a penchant for funny hats)?
Was it he who told the unemployed to get a shovel?
Think not!
Harcourt was the Mayor and Premier who listened and made compromises to get consencus.
Maybe Grumpy prefers dictators?
Oh yeah, Harcourt stepped on his toes by refusing to discuss, for the umpteenth time, the topic that Grumpy is not prepared to compromise on.
Sorry Grump, that is in fact democracy even if your pet idea gets ignored!
When so many people are crammed into a valley and delta, compromises need to be made.
Maybe the old cities in Europe got a break by being bombed out, at least they got the opportunity to re-plan the streets and traffic system; we are stuck with the old horsetrails that later became streets.
Grumpy
5 years ago
Just the fact please
The problem why politicos do not like to debate me is that I deal in facts. They do not. Simple chum.
If you like SkyTrain and RAV, you must like high taxes. Why? Because they cost a whole lot more to operate than LRT.
Simple.
Harcourt was a fence sitter, no more and blew to the winds of the politically correct. A good premier, he was not, but we haven't had a good premier in BC for generations.
I hate to say it but the Zalm, for all his faults was superior to any that have held the office since him.
As for city planning, as major cities are planning for light rail, not mini-metros, it seems the no is listening to wee Mikey.
Grumpy
5 years ago
should read.......
Last sentence should read ....it seems no one is listening to wee Mikey.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Gavin
Gavin - you are right and wrong. The population in the GVRD is actually closer to 3 million now than 2. However, the population of Vancouver is only about 650,000 - 800,000.
If you use that measure you made reference to, the Tories won a fair number of seats in Delta, Maple Ridge, Surrey, Langley and a couple of others. I think they won about 5-6 in the GVRD.
Vancouver counts as the 5 Vancouver seats. The tories were shut out of Vancouver - not the Greater Vancouver.
I agree with the point that the Tories need to make inroads in Ontario/Quebec. They don't even acknowledge our existence out here - worse, they don't understand our viewpoint. They look at Western Canadians at large as gun-toting rednecks - and Vancouverites as a bunch of lotus-land living hippies!
I travel a bunch to Toronto for work, and I hear the same questions. (1) All you guys in Vancouver do is ski, don't you? (2) There are a lot of Chinese people out there, aren't there? (3) The weather is warm, but it rains a lot? it is very annoying... - then people will discuss the beauty and the drug problems they hear of...
We truly are insignificant! Chretien realized this and didn't even try. Martin tried to acknowledge us, but failed. Our voice, simply is not loud enough!
Quebec has more seats than BC/Alberta - yet, we have a bigger population....
Coyote
5 years ago
Neocon fools 'n worshippers...
I'm with you, Stump.
The mindless, immediate self-interest driven capitalism of endless growth in cheap labour, market demand, and production, which is now begun to seriously translate into over population, bloated urban centres, over farming of the land and sea, and resource waste and depletion, is the main problem of our time. It's these insane appetites of a system wedded to the pursuit of eternal self-interest and delusions of wealth grandeur which drive the world from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, to the melting of the great icecaps, and the decline of the ocean fisheries.
And though increasingly obvious in crises decline, there is just enough whoomph left in it yet to cause folks, especially in the still advanced capitalist countries where there is still good shopping, not to see or feel the imperative to act, and to encourage tolerance of the growing inequalities within the status quo arrangement. It's the continued presence of "bling" that still dazzles and produces the widespread blunting effect.
Pavlovian theory, which for all that "bourgeois officialdom" derides it, there is still near, if unspoken universal agreement of its reflection of unvarnished reality, says that has to change, There is need for more squeezing of working class level "pleasure" from out of the system yet, which is the work the Neoconazis are about, their role in the piece, along with the commensurate introduction of more working class level "pain" into the system-, which our same Neoconazis are about as well.
It is their usefulness to the period-, at least in the eyes of those of us as would seek to utilize the work they do, in pursuit of their greed driven ambitions, and as we can do nothing about right now anyway.
Bring it on. Turn it into a parking lot, you fuks. :-) Cram them in there. Increase the density until their ears pop and their eyes bug out. Turn the streams, rivers and oceans into intestinal shitt arteries. :-)
And nuke Iran, you mofus.
More cars. There's not enough fuggin' cars.
freebc
5 years ago
Capitalism... your comments
Capitalism, you noted that we in the west are really insignificant back east.
Does that mean you can live without hearing about how confederation as we know it must dissolve before something a wee bit more democratic can come about?
I am a fan of direct democracy because I like the idea of all politicians (no matter their political stripe) being placed on really short leashes, and where no legislation shall be beyond the voters grasp to repeal, if they want to. And where each vote in the house is a free vote.
How 'bout you?
Frank
5 years ago
Wrong as usual
Actually economic growth under the NDP outperformed the 80's Socreds. I've looked it up in the past at BC Stats, you can too.
So if Grumpy thinks Zalm is god's gift to politicos and Capitalism thinks the NDP were riding a Socred gravy train... well, you might want to check the record.
As for the NDP, most of their years in gov't were good years, except of course the two following the Asian Crisis. If they were as bad as BC business claims then why was the economy doing so well in the last 2 years before they left power?
Anyway Cap, you mentioned that Campbell was responsible for BC's surpluses. Unfortunately BC Stats shows that Campbell's entire surplus was delivered to BC by the Feds due to increases in transfer payments. If the NDP had received the same level of federal transfers they would have run massive surpluses every single year they were in gov't too.
Also, you said that he has increased healthcare spending. Yes, the dollars spent have increased. However, you didn't mention that the number of people employed in actual health care positions (not counting Campbell's bloated managment) has declined. Nor would you or anyone else like to claim healthcare outcomes are better now than they were under the NDP.
G West
5 years ago
Cappy can't you read?
The largest Metropolitan areas in Canada, 2001 Census are:
Toronto - 4,682,900;
Montreal - 3,426,400;
Vancouver - 1,987,000;
Ottawa/Gatineau - 1,063,700;
Calgary - 951,400;
Edmonton - 937,800;
Halifax - 359,200
Grumpy
5 years ago
Nope
Well, with the Zalm, you knew where he stood on an issue, the rest since have been a dead loss. Our Premiers since the 80's have been a provincial embarrassment, Zalm included.
In BC we have very few decent politicians, very few indeed.
alive
5 years ago
grump, grump, grump
No kidding !
If you are part of the religious right, you would feel at home with that regime.
Grumpy, you make it a virtue for a politician to not be flexible and listen to the people!
Gordo can be pretty pigheaded as well, so I guess you love him as well?
Coyote
5 years ago
Cities...
Cities aren't sexy.
They have their place in probably any social system scheme of things, some of them, but largely, certainly at present, they are bloated, alienating, dogs' breakfasts spewed out across too much landscape.
But that monstrosity I see approaching the Port Mann is anything but friggin' sexy. It's only relation to sexy is in that it is more closely related to an abortion end product.
Which, having said, doesn't really need to be, I think, if the "never ending greed and growth" imperative attached to capitalism was ever brought under control and more focussed on "social equality and sustainability" instead. Their population level's footprint upon the land brought drastically down to long term sustainability levels, I think again, cities could be not only more attractive but useful places, to the whole of society everywhere, including the countryside.
It's the scale and intensity that capitalism imposes, arising out of its fundamental "greed drives" that fuks up cities and the land around them, and as the Maya eventually discovered in the course of their elite driven system, drives people to abandon them in the end, and let the jungle have them.
Cities may be many things, but sexy is definitely not one of them. There's more to sexy than impoverished prostitutes and sex trade children working the streets.
DPL
5 years ago
Willy the slammer sure was a
Willy the slammer sure was a piece of work.
Got caught over a real estate deal. Required any expenditure over 500 dollars to go through his office. Bought a windmill as part of an attraction then decided to have cabinet meetings on the site, might be good for business.Was quite proud of telling the poor he would give them shovels. Ran for Mayor of Vancouver and was soundly beaten by guess who Mike harcourt.The stary thing about bill was , that in his mind he could do no wrong. His really big acomplishment was he started dealing with the Indians for modern treaties, against the wishes of many of his team.
Bye bye, its almost time to get out of the country for afew weeks. In case Grumpy asks, we are paying for the trip ourselves
RickW
5 years ago
Coyote
....then it wouldn't be capitalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_to_Growth
Capitalism, if not born, was nurtured in the seemingly limitless expansionism represented by the "wild, wild west" of the US, and the zenith of the British Empire in the 19th century.
Capitalism cannot exist within walls.
Grumpy
5 years ago
True story
A very good friend of mine lives almost across from the Zalm estate. He was weeding his flowers when a chap in large bicycle helmet came beside him and started giving him advice for the sorry state of affairs of his garden. A few "givem this' and a few give 'em' that and lo and behold it was the Zalm. Gardener Bill, the flowers guardian angel ~ I wouldn't vote for him, but hey, a good, good old boy!
So he made a few $bucks$ on land development, so did some good old boy NDP types! No one is immune to the BC disease!
freebc
5 years ago
BC Premiers
Alive writes:
"No kidding !
If you are part of the religious right, you would feel at home with that regime.
Grumpy, you make it a virtue for a politician to not be flexible and listen to the people!
Gordo can be pretty pigheaded as well, so I guess you love him as well?"
Well alive, it still doesn't change the fact that the premier of a party whose middle name is supposed to be DEMOCRATIC isn't as democratic as you would think.
When the NDP under your illustrious leader Mike Harcourt had a chance to bring democracy to BC, he didn't.
Instead, we got that sham of democracy that we have now.
Recall legislation that NDP supporters would have killed to have workable. Anyone remember the 'RECALL THEM ALL' campaign. Nobody could because the recall legislation introduced and passed by Harcourt's anti-democratic government made it impossible.
Add to that the initiative legislation that is little more than a strongly worded suggestion to the legislature and you have the single worst bungle of any governing political party in Canada's history.
The acts of Mike Harcourt should be something that BCers can feel sad about forever.
clubofrome
5 years ago
I'm new...
Pretend I'm new here. Someone please explain to me how anything Harcourt, Campbell, Vanderzalm etc. did, could be anything like "Mr sell us down the river" Campbell? Please explain this too me, how we have bingo gate, Glen Clarks deck and whatever other POS story that should even compare to the present crime wave? Please explain this to me.
freebc
5 years ago
clubofrome
Apparently you aren't reading the posts so permit me one more time.
Mike Harcourt who was affiliated with a people's populist party whose middle name literally is DEMOCRATIC.
But is it really?
When the BC Social Credit Party went to a resounding defeat due in no small part to the 'Zalm, one of those little hangovers given to Mike Harcourt was a referendum which asked the people of BC if they were in favour of having Recall and Initiative legislation. The people of BC said yes to the tune of around 80% if I remember right.
So the ever diligent Harcourt, former Vancouver mayor, set about to honour that referendum result.
However, in the end, what we got was not exactly what was touted at the beginning before the referendum. If you read the Elections BC web site, you will notice that RECALL is very very hard to actually achieve because of the requirement of 40% of those listed on the list of electors of the previous election no less than 18 months earlier. If they weren't on THAT list, they cannot sign a recall form, even though they were citizens of BC, and moved into that constituency after the list was made.
INITIATIVE, the thing which could have stopped Gordo in his tracks was the greatest betrayal of BC's citizens because even if you do manage to get all of the signatures in the time alotted, and even if everything is deemed correct, and even if it does actually pass with the majority vote as required... Once it gets before the MLA's, they can legally tinker with it until THEY are satisfied, or simply defeat it and be done with it. There is NOTHING binding on MLA's to honour any initiative launched by the people.
So, you can complain about Gordo and his corrupt ways. But you really ought to consider tar and feathers for the one man in BC's history who COULD have changed politics here forever, but chose to have continuing graft and corrupt ways continue on.
So all this is really Mike Harcourt and the NDP's fault all the way.
Thank you NO DEMOCRACY PARTY and your leader MIKE HARCOURT dictator bastard.