We all have to make do with less (from 'stuff' to energy).

Nevermind the potential jobs, what about the potential provincial tax revenue? That is how the Governmnet views it, just as the view offshore oil and gas - a government revenue windfall.

Now if we all want more of everything government services wise, where will the revenue come from?

Especially if the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Visions are to continue growing.

So we must make do with less, or recognize that wanting more costs money and either the taxpayer or the individual will have to pay.

Great news --I applaud this action by the Chiefs and the non-indigenous community. But we (in the rural and urban parts of this province) must, ally together, and go beyond these actions. These are the times, and we are the people.

It is plain to see that democracy is faltering badly in this province, power to make decisions affecting the economy and ecolology of this province, on a region by region basis, are made primarily out of the Premier's office or by a small group of powerful Ministers. Much of our 'common property' has been privatized by the pirates in Victoria..who act on the behest of the large corporate community.

There are struggles going on over future resource use in the energy & mining sectors all over the province, and at this point, the activist communities have not yet come together in unity. It is not time for a "meeting" between the folks up in the Squamish area struggling against the IPP project on the Ashlu; between the folks in the Princeton area facing the prospects of coal-fired electrical generation, between the folks in the Smithers and other areas facing the prospects of coal-bed methane product, the folks in Kitimat staring down the Alcan debacle, and last the folks (indigenous and otherwise), facing the prospects of large pipeline project transiting to their territories, and eventually, to those folks on the coast, who may see oil tankers connecting with those pipelines - and hence more oil tanker traffic down the coast.

In the past the people of BC have put together the Tin-Wis Coalition, the Coalition to Stop Uranium Mining & Exploration in this Province, we have had at the Village of Hazelton, the agreement known as the "Framework for Watershed STewardship" --all of which have been community movements to confront the centralization of decision making power by Victoria and its alliance with corporate power. Now, more then ever, under the regieme of the Fiberals, we need a coming together, of urban and rural peoples, to non-violently OPPOSE the centralized decision making over our lives and lands, and to PROPOSE, a province-wide alliance (of indigenous and non-indigenous peoples, dedicated to decentralizing political and fiscal power to localities where people live, in their villages, regions, city-neighbourhoods, We need to reclaim the power of community, we need a draft constitution of localized power and soverignty. Global warming is facing us all...it will not be remedied by the same colluding forces that created it, namely, big centralized governments and big, centralized corporations, and centralized urban political parties. Region by region, territory by territory, from the ground-up, grass-roots, then a confederacy, similar to the Iroquois Confederacy. That is my take on it anyway. Peter Dimitrov,

Sounds like something in need of more clarity and better translation ie

WE WANT MORE $$$$$$$$$ BEFORE WE ( FIRST NATIONS SUPPORT ) THIS !!!!

Peter D. said "we need a coming together, of urban and rural peoples, to non-violently OPPOSE the centralized decision making over our lives and lands, and to PROPOSE, a province-wide alliance (of indigenous and non-indigenous peoples, dedicated to decentralizing political and fiscal power to localities where people live, in their villages, regions, city-neighbourhoods, We need to reclaim the power of community, we need a draft constitution of localized power and soverignty."

Absolutely! This is the way and also the future. Now if the orthodox left had any brains they would pick up on this, but I am not holding my breath waiting for them. Like in Oaxaca, where such a struggle has arisen, it is up to the ordinary person to make the changes. We can no longer rely upon those who are the intermediaries between us and the corporate gangsters.

Good points, Peter. THis may be a long shot but if we want a change in government, perhaps the people in these BC Liberal riding should recall their MLA's. If 70% of the people in the Bulkey valley do not want this CBM development, they have a good chance of sucess.

I applaud the hereditary chiefs from the Wet'suwet'en Nation, the Wet'suwet'en Nation and all residents of the Bulkley Valley. Right On! Stand up for your rights!

Coalbed Methane extraction has already been shown to be an environmental horror story in the USA, how could any sane individual promote such a monstrous wounding on this Beautiful Country? (thank-you to the first nations who kept it pristine for millenia)

I imagine Gordoccio and Co will try to spin this project as providing British Columbians with more choice, sort of like Fish Farming - shown to be disastrous in first Norway then Scotland then Ireland and now Canada.

Wet'suwet'en hereditary chief Alphonse Gagnon and We The People of British Columbia have GOT to Force This Criminal Gordon Campbell Liberals and his muzzeled MLAs to Answer to All the Dirty Backroom/Scandalous sellout of OUR Beautiful British Columbia that is going on now in every ministry?
As a British Columbian, I am very passionate/worried about our Democratic rights!

It seems like to many British Columbians would much rather just carry on as usual, but if WE don't get OUR heads out of the sand, WEare going to be buried.
Once WE have lost OUR Democratic Rights it will be too late!!!
WE should be organizing in every community in OUR British Columbia while WE still have OUR Democratic Rights to do so! These rights are slowly being eroded/taken away by OUR supposedly democratically elected f/liberals.

Wet'suwet'en Nation and ALL Nations and People of this Great Province of OUR's British Columbia
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. When you give up that force, you are ruined.”
— Patrick Henry
"Corruption and hypocrisy ought not to be inevitable products of democracy, as they undoubtedly are today" : Mahatma Gandhi

Bang on Maestro

"consultation with First nations" translates as "which band gets how much and whose family gets the most"

We taught 'em well- I'll believe a lot more of this tripe when I see one of the "chiefs" living on the land, eschweing a pickup for transport and leading by example. Must have been a long walk to Calgary- Oh wait, you mean they took a plane trip on one of those polluting tin cans?
Who paid for the travel?

Please-I call bul##%T
I live here too.

Ah yes, cynicism. The Bart Simpson approach to politics. (ie any 9 year old can learn to sneer) No one has any values, no one has any principles, no one has any traditions, everyone is in it for the money, everyone models themselves on corporate sociopaths. Speak for yourself, steveoverthere.

Peter said:

So true Peter, I too believe we need to come together on these issues mentioned, and I am convinced we will be called to demonstrate more in the coming months and years in order to establish a healthy, functioning democratic system once again...

The corporate insanity leading to invasion and damage of FN cultures as well as the destruction of the homes and lives of many species, is the result of the "tail wagging the dog". Where is democracy in all this?? The voices of the people, indiginous and non-indigunous, and the actions to support those, needs to happen...

I commend the strength of the Wet'suwet'en Nation who traveled to Calgary to hand-deliver a message to Norwest Corporation and Outrider Energy Ltd., as this is the type of action and commitment we need to support in order to conduct change…

In the end when living things are all gone and Nations are destroyed, the blame will not be on the neocons, but on all of us, as we failed to stop them... I believe that actions such as that demonstrated recently by the FN's, can curb the "greedhead plague", and give the Voice back to the People...
Peace,

Bear

steveoverhere:

Well, the inpiration for much of what I said is actually what I have heard before.

I vividly recall a First Nations leader discussing the traditional ways ...but then seguaying into "if you think I don't like central heating and think I want to go back living in a teepee....think again etc etc." aka the BEST of both worlds.

I truly believe we are ALL EQUAL ...and consistent with that belief is the good, the bad and the ugly has NO monopoly within any given group.

My own concern is the " future shock " I see coming...our political leaders seem to be placing themselves into a vulnerable position to create the latest hip/fashionable political legacy, and cut deals with First Nations groups and create a litany of compounding precedents which may end up "de facto" giving the province back to First Nations...to the exclusion of all/most others, and unfortuantely many can't seem to grasp this.

This could be far WORSE than any/all alleged neo-con sell out many TYEE poster continually claim. In fact, many deals in the future may simply be joint First Nations /"Neo-con" ventures..where ONE side masks the OTHER "partner". I'd bet most Lefties would back off any criticism of any deal if it involved First Nations.

PS I am NOT talking in theory...I have court documents to show it via a very specific case.

"and cut deals with First Nations groups and create a litany of compounding precedents which may end up "de facto" giving the province back to First Nations"

Which would be the only just thing to do since the land was stolen in the first place. But this is a straw man since the FN don't want "the province" they just want justice and a share that is suitable for their needs. What people who trash the FN don't see also is that the ideas involved in the land claims - self government combined with control of development - are the very ones that Settler communities should adopt. As Peter and I have been pointing out here what we need is local control of development and resources combined with decentralized democracy. Rather than working against the FN peoples we should work with them in a common struggle against the corporate state.

the arguement for granting resource extraction licenses appears to be based on an interptretation of something called "Greater Good". In this case I guess it means more supply of cheap energy notwithstanding a few short term jobs, profits for a corporation or two and some tax revenue.

Somehow in the current incarnation of "law" these considerations trump any objection from other interested parties such as First Nations (could it be that the land claims would finally be settled once the gas, timber or minerals have been messily extracted?) or local citizens whether they own property or not.

We all all used to the fact that various government ministries, Highways and Energy for example, can simply establish a "Right of way" through what you imagine is your property (or your living room for that matter) and build a road, pipeline or electrical transmission tower just there. To date some local protests have had bits of short term success in delaying a project deemed for "GG" - mainly consisting of news coverage of protestors chatting with police while heavy equipment stands idle.

Soon it's back to "business as usual":
the rest of us cruise the new highway or "smartswitch" our dwelling to whichever (usually temporarily cheap) energy system now available. We collect the "cash back incentive" and forget the early objectors.

Until someone dreams up a way to harness the energy in the Radon gas in my Strata High rise basement I can sympathize all I wish with the rancher or native villager (or West Vancouver Yup) somewhere in the hinterland who takes the changes personally.

I have to go. A couple of surveyors are trampling about in my balcony window boxes.......

I agree entirely with Peter Dimitrov above. And it certainly is time for the building of a broad based "democracy movement" within this province and country, rooted in the various community "issue" groups, such as around this coal bed methane production, poverty, opposition to fish farming the ocean shoreline, for a more democratic and equal electoral system, education access and student rights, for the rights of rank and file labour, which includes minimum wage workers and the poor, public transit development, issues around the alienation of public resources and institutions, the betrayal of the country to a North Amerikan Union, and the gathering destruction of our natural environments in land, air and water, for the "nation" rights of both urban and reserve Natives, and all the other groupings of folks around the local, regional and provincial issues of growing concern to them.

I know numbers of us elsewhere, coming out of Tyee, are already discussing this need to how we can more effectively proceed with this building of a powerful grassroots, issue oriented Democracy Movement, to strengthen the increasingly ignored voice of our street level citizenry. A spring meeting date is already getting some early discussion, to explore the suitability for the timing of such a Popular Assembly, in a location not yet decided, and interested folks here should discuss the idea amongst themselves and perhaps let us know what they think of the idea.

Nothing is firmed up yet, by any means. These are just very early exploratory discussions. Though do not hesitate to contact the below email address, or to pass it on to folks and local groupings that might be interested.

It is time for things to start to move here, in more serious and activist directions.

anarcho;

If we go to this "stolen land" premise in TRUE global retroactive fashion, we'll all end up in the Middle East or Africa starting over from the creation/evolution of man.

We need to move on and perhaps accept the reality that borders and jurisdictions are not set in stone, continually evolve, thus historically somewhat fluid.

Your decentralized /settler premise is a fair comment...good in theory,..however, many other factors come into play. Mechanization/ technology one can't really stop, it results in displacement ,and perhaps more the fact people are not drawn to the "pioneering /settlement" premise any more.

A colleague of mine, now 60, and who grew up on a Saskatchewan farm, tells me the farmers there are bailing, and the Gov't is purchasing these lands, NOT farming it and instead putting the land BACK into it's natural state. This has many implications, one of which is to cut any/all obligations to the farmer . Or perhaps the farmer was a transient use in the bigger scheme of things...

I don't make the rules, simply take note and keep for future reference.

maestro
..What case are you talking about?

As far as there being backroom deals between the Campbell government and certain elements of Native Government (and not necessarily the native people themselves) I'm certain that's what's in the winds and, you might be surprised, it's been noted often and severally by regulars at this site. Greed and opportunism knows no bounds and I think the Campbell government's new colouration as being the best friends of First Nations stinks to high heaven.

In short, I think it's about as believable as every other promise we've heard from the gang that hangs out in James Bay for days at a time...when it's raining in Hawaii and Pt Grey.

Alci:

First things first..if you or any other TYEE posters feel so adamant, and you "technically" own title to property, your guilty consciences should have YOU first surrendering title to the First Nations group which " claims " your currently deeded turf was in their traditional lands.

However, that surrender would then allow the given First Nations to basically do whatever they choose, given their simple Band ownership can allow them to bypass Local Gov't bylaws. This was cited as an example on CBC radio a few years back.

"Cases?"

Do a " Courts " search on any First Nations Band. More specifically, Vancouver - based First Nations Bands.

Further to the discussion:

Given the understanding that any piece of land in BC is, for all intents and purposes, basically divided into (i) surface rights and (ii) subsurface (mineral/mining)rights, ....one wonders if First Nations claims are ultimately trumping the aforementioned two categorizations and instead claiming they are one and the same .

Hence, does anyone know if the First Nations claims , in legal theory and reality , extend down to the earth's core. One would presume that it would also be based/rooted on their "traditional beliefs ".

So you really don't have a specific case in mind where private interests are taking advantage of First Nations treaty settlements because they're in the Campbell Liberals' back pocket?

Maestro, you are taking this idea to an absurd level. This is a falacious method of argument. We are not talking about thousands of years, we are talking, as in the case of BC about 100 years. The aboriginal Britons, for example no longer exist, culturally, linguistically or genetically. The "Old European" (ie pre-Celtic) Britons no longer exist to claim any rights. However, in Canada the aboriginal peoples still do exist, genetically, culturally and to some extent linguistically. They are here to claim their rights. Secondly, for the vast majority of land in BC there has never been any treaty negociation.

First things first..if you or any other TYEE posters feel so adamant, and you "technically" own title to property, your guilty consciences should have YOU first surrendering title to the First Nations group which " claims " your currently deeded turf was in their traditional lands.

More falacious argumentation. Individual working people and our tiny bits of property are not the problem. The problem lies with the governments and corporations. There is plenty of land and resources for all the people both FN and Settler, if the government and the corporations would let go of it. As for guilt I have none. I support the FN not out of guilt but because their fight is my fight. If they can get justice and communal liberty maybe the rest of us can too. Please go back to what Peter and I have written earlier to see what I mean.

any piece of land in BC is, for all intents and purposes, basically divided into (i) surface rights and (ii) subsurface (mineral/mining)rights, .

The dividing of property between surface rights and subsurface rights is a fraud perpetuated by governments to cream off the minerals for themselves and their buddies. This division does not exist in Natural Law, as with traditional (peasant, fishing, hunting-gathering) societies and should not exist in ours either.The only way such a divsion has existed is by the state making this claim and administering it through coercion. I would abolish it along with other scams like the corporation as "fictitious individual", limited liability, patent laws, and eminent domain.

Maestro, my identification with the FN struggle is more than a utilitarian interest. You, like most people, are probably unaware that a much deeper link lies between the European-origin working classes and the FN. Our ancestors were free peasants who lived and viewed the world very much like the FN peoples. Bands of barbarian nomads conquered our ancestors, stole our lands and made us into slaves and serfs. Thus arose both the state, class division and authoritarian religion. (the true “Axis of Evil”) The European peasantry are in essence “the First Indians”. Much later the English ruling class got itself in shape to pillage the FN by practicing on the Irish and Welsh. Thus working people of European origin should see themselves in the FN peoples and work together to restore our common rights and liberties stripped from us by the state and a class-based system. If you want to read more on our ancestors, a good place to start is Riane Eisler's “Chalice And The Blade”.

Coyote, Great Idea whose time has come Democracy Movement
Those Gordon Campbell television ads which are BS, and how much are they costing the BC taxpayers?
All I know is that they are a blatant gross lie to the citizens/taxpayers of OUR British Columbia.
I wonder who is pulling his strings?

It just isn't BC folks. Dig Daniel Martinez of Radio APPO (Oaxaca)

" Of old we are used to talking with the whole village about important things and making decisions together. And what about nature? All the mountains you see are
in danger. With the Plan Puebla Panama (freetradeagreementzone in
Latin-Amerika) the current gouvernment will give big multinationals
permission to cut trees, sell our plants as medicine and plunder the
earth. Do you think we can accept that?"

http://www.ainfos.ca/en/ainfos18834.html

Coyote
Where do I sign up?

One tiny item bothers me: The word "Democracy" and all it's forms has been purloined and poisened lately and when I hear or read them I have a negative reaction, ie: I expect to hear a string of BS shortly. The dictionary definition of this word has little to do with how it is used and over used today.

Can we not create a new word (or series of words) to describe what we hope to acheive and retire that poor noble casualty of modern language abuse?

Hint: "Freedom" is just as sickly lately.
Maybe we will need to borrow a word from another language as we have often done. Latin roots? Names?

Ken means "to know" to some Scots
Lynne means "Brook or Stream" to some English
No one knows what anything means to the Welsh or Irish
I'm searching now I know
The language is part of the problem

Alci:

Wassamatta...don't want to do a search on your own and reveal some ugly truths?

One particular case is on hold. However, if you dig into it and possibly others, some interesting revelations come forward. One may recall that the Land claims total over 100 % of BC. However, it appears the Crown has designated what the traditional land boundaries are in some cases..ie FN band "X " claims' boundaries are designated by the Crown in a pie -slcing exercise. This may be a means to keep it simple vs. actual merit.

One negotiated agreements "MOU" wording had an alliance between the Feds, the Local Gov't and the FN in the event any OTHER FN group came forward to make a claim.

Now, I now read in the local paper...a neighbouring FN Band is in fact making its clear that it had some roots in this same area, which implies the Crown FN boundaries are out the window. One may have presumed that the FN's may have had agreements amongst themselves to not overlap claims so as the expedite their own land claim negotiations.

It appears neither side in the land claims issue wants to see these issues go to court...however, the Crowns or any level of Gov'ts piecemeal out -of -court settlements will still establish precedents and benchmarks, and continue to make this land claim issue a drawn out mess.

Anarcho:

Re FN Land Claims.

Again, the basic point I am asking is given FN's "traditional ways" as a point of reference, can they lay claim to subsurface rights seemlessly ,( ie BOTH surface rights and subsurface rights are one and the same),...as opposed to the OTHER laws as they apply to non- FN which separate out the (i)surface rights from (ii) the subsurface rights?

In other words , if a given piece of land has coal, gas, copper, gold deposits,...and the FN's make a claim on this same land,...do their Land Claims , if valid, also allow them to acquire full ownership of the these valuable sub surface deposits...as opposed to other non FN parties having to stake a claim for the subsurface rights, given that law would apply to them and yet perhaps not apply to the FN's ?

I am fully aware that the Gov't has separated these rights out for most of us,which is my point,...BUT does it apply to FN's for various reasons, one of which is their traditional ways ie "own laws" have been here long before we non FN's establshed surface rights vs. subsurface rights.

Good questions Maestro. When the BC treaty process started each group were asked to identify what they thought was their land. 110 percent was the result.
It was called overlap .A process was put in place to deal with overlaps. The parties involved are supposed to work it out. Neither the fed or the province would be involved. The BC Treaty Commission would give assistance if asked. No treaty would occur till that overlap was done. Mineral rights as far as I can remember will go to the Band involved, as they eventually become a self government. The "bundle of right" so far undefined will each be addressed and everyone will know who owns what.
Any law developed by a group must equal or better the laws of the Fed and the province.
Certain things will remain as present as international treaties control certain things ie migratory birds, and others. Unfortunately the policy papers set out by the previous government went into some archives as the present government came into power. Some policies still are being applied. A example of the difficulties of land claims.A court case has been running now for 15 years, estimated final costs will be around 30 millions. The court days numbers are horrendous. A columnist in the T/C did a good overview of that one case a couple of days ago. It was pretty accurate. For years the Supreme Court of Canada told bands there are two ways to claim title. Prove it, which is a massive problem as found out by the columnist I just mentioned. The other way is negotiations, the preferred way says the courts. Court cases take a long time, burn up lots of money and a group ends up with a 50/50 chance of losing or winning. Then the route is usually to the Supreme Court of Canada. The court says that title can exist but again says prove it, or negotiate it. This is getting a bit long but a very few of us actually attended a lot of treaty negotiating tables, went on Committees as third party interest groups, attended and spoke at open public meetings on how we saw things shaping up. A number of us attended the Standing Committee meetings on the Nisga Treaty Agreement In Principal, which most of us supported. The then leader of the opposition most certainly did not support the idea. It's all in Hansard. Met a lot of hard workers for the three major parties involved. Land claims can break anyone. In many cases the court costs are paid by the Federal and provincial governments as the other party is too broke to pay their side. In Modern treaties, money is borrowed by the bands. the longer it takes, the higher the cost. It is to be paid back over time when a treaty exists.One small addition. Unlike the USA, who went to war with the abroginal,after a war the winner gets to pretty well decide who has what. Canada did not go to war with the aboriginal groups so it sin't that simple a deal. Origional treaties wer struck and often very one sided. The modern ones simply arn't that way

DPL:

Good comments and info;

In one of those often obscure items many of us inevitably come across from time to time, , one that I read claimed that , early in Canada's history, the First Nations groups within Canada were to be dealt with on par with NON First Nation immigrants...in other words...EQUALS and the current FN model ie Bands and reservations etc.was not the original vision. Or,put another way full. integration vs the current segregation. Perhaps the FN bands "autonomy" and reservations model had more insidious intent than so-called cultural preservation, etc, etc.

As you state, the U.S. chose a bit different path,going to war with some aboriginal groups, but to my understanding are also in the same boat with so-called treaties. A trip down I-5 seems to indicate casino licenses are the modern trade "wampum".

Yes , DPL, there are all sort of so-called dispute resolution mechanisms as you have so generously outlined, but the court ....and court cost ....and the court delays show this matter may never be resolved following these mechanism - models.

However, as I mentioned earlier re: pending cases, , one will see the word "Consultation" used more and more, which is nouveau synonymous with Injunction...which further extrapolates into out -of- court settlements, and the quasi- precedents they may inevitably establish.

In my view, the FN's prefer this out of court mode...one over -zealous "wrong righting" Gov't is all it takes...damn the consequences.

Without the same pages and the same rule book, it will end up an " Fn' " mess.

Hi Maestro
I spent a whole day in a conference covering two words. Accountability:Consultation.

The courts have defined consultation pretty well. But even with the one word , there are often problems. What is considered sufficient consultation?
Did the other side bother to respond in a reasonable time, and what is a reasonable time? And on it goes, usually back to a higher court. I don't necessarily agree that most bands want to settle outside the court system. For quite awhile, the governments wouldn't negotiate with bands who were heading to courts. With this new government I'm no way up to speed on the latest.

Locally two bands picked up 35 millions to remove a claim on the legislative precinct. The band had willingly moved from the original Songhess one reserve to where they are today, Songhees two. The Songhees and a number of other bands are in treaty negotiations, have been for a large number of years, their group is called Temex. Now and again they actually get to the table. Folks can't use the same pages as others but certainly do use the previous treaties resolved in the Yukon and Nisga as proven paragraphs. This happens as they are saying, the other treaty is not a template. Both governments agree they aren't templates either. The present rules if I can call it that is the Indian act and it's really got some large shortages in it. It is there to , in my view protect the pieces of land set aside for Indians, more than to protect the Indian . I use the word Indian as that's the legal name, not to appear insulting. Time to spare. Go read Jack Woodwards large book called' Native Law.
The Hulquiminum a small bad near Nanaimo, but not the same as the band at Nanaimo, raised the issue of a sacred hill a number of years ago. It was set aside till completion of the treaty. Now it seems there are literally hundreds on sites in the territory. Some federal land at nanaimo was set aside for a number of years as negotiations went on there. Only quick way to sort it out is treaty. They have been in the process for a number of years as well. Some day go to Courts, records of decisions and type in the word Indian and tell me again the bands prefer not to go the court route. I once counted 18 lawyers at a treaty meeting.

The "rules" were not written until "Whitey" (we) came over and brought a bunch of baggage - handily including a number of (generally Made in England) regulations.
Since whitey was so much more sophisticated than the dwindling native population and had trouble understanding "Chilcoot" he went ahead with the drawing up of "Agreements" in English and finding someone to sign them. Then, though most were mentioning the Queen of England, whitey went about doing whatever he chose and justifying it by waving some copy of whatever paper document came to hand.
I am not "FN" as we seem to be refering to B.C. Indians just now.

I am ashamed to be justifiably seen as "Whitey".

No one - no matter what paper they wave - has the right to do what we are, as we speak, doing to the planet in general nor to the areas in question.

To avoid expletives I gonna sign off

Could be it is because I just talked to Dan, son of hereditary cheifs of the Haida. He is not an hereditary cheif because the succession is "matralinial".

That might help us "whitey"s if our succession was also "matralinial"

Actually our sucession was matrilinial originally. Then the donkeyholes (my way of getting around the censorship) who are the spirtual ancestors of our present ruling class invaded and replaced it with patriarchy, sexual repression and authoritarianism. See
http://www.geocities.com/vcmtalk/primalwound.html or The Chalice And The Blade" by Riane Eilser

Don't be fooled by this courts BS. The rulers have a hundred way of delaying or stopping change whether it is Native land claim, or sane policies for dealing with homelessness or drug addiction. One of the most common methods of delay is the use of law and the courts. But of course if its something THEY want that's another matter. Or as I often say " If its something WE want they will drag it out for a lifetime. If its something THEY want they will shove it through in an hour."

That's the reason they need to be such big --- holes. So when they shove things through the hole can adapt to size -one size fits all!

Since we each have (are sometimes are) one I can not be too hard on "them" - except when they beaver away fiddling with the legislation their own ancestors cooked up. That forces the offended parties to hire another think tank full of "them" and on it goes.

This condition is, T'anks God, only temporary. Right and wrong exist beyond the reach of legislation or manufactured "public opinion".

Every Budgy Knows

DPL:

Re Going to court:

It all depends on the strength of the case. The Songhees case was interesting. Also, If treaties are on paper that is one thing...if not ___?

After that, it gets even more interesting. If not mistaken , the Courts have acknowledged that private lands are not part of the FN settlement equation. The term Consultation has been used in such things as the dispensation of Crown Land deemed surplus.

Gov'ts tend to avoid cutting cheques if that is an option...so instead try the equivalent values "in lieu of cash"....though cash may ultimately be the better way to go. Instead , by the "in lieu of cash " route, land, resources etc become the new commodities for negotiation.

In Tsawassen , large tracts of Land in the ALR are on the table for the Tsawassen band. the Value added is to give it away cheap = no cost to Gov't, they wave their magic wand and presto...10 + times the value in a split second when the ink is dry. However, what makes this even more interesting is a prior expropriation of much of this same land in Tsawassen by the Gov't decades ago. Many of the original owners whose land was previously expropriated are now wanting that land back. It appears the Crown is bypassing the original rationale for these expropriation, which have their own criteria and is its own sub plot.

Throw in the fact the ALC is now making it tougher for large amounts of Land to come out of the ALR , and that the Gov't apparently no longer bypasses the ALC decisions with Orders in Council,...the plot thickens even more.

In addition, a colleague tells me the Tsawassen band is very small, and much of that is due to their locale and historical attacks from nomadic U.S FN Bands from the South and also from attacks from neighbouring Canadian FN bands. Hence, my previous comments of what are the true FN boundaries for each Band, if any.

I knew you'd bring it back to the ALR eventually maestro. It was just a matter of time.
Self Interest trumps all, eh, and you're a one-trick pony.

Hi Maestro
I did mention that overlaps between bands are to be sorted by the bands. Some are doing that. ALR land was not , if connected to treaties, to be treated differently that for any other owner. The intent seemed to be to keep it in the Land Reserve. Not to be flipped into condos'. Recently the Provincial government seems to have a different approach. Some reserves are small but many have huge numbers of non Indians on the land set aside. In many areas the occupiers population far exceeds the numbers of band members. And for that reason the occupiers accept a vote on issues directly affecting them. Other wise they would be chief and council if allowed to vote on such issues and the band tried to ignore them, as has happened a lot in the past. They are small because there isn't much crown land around. as private land is not to be taken, it's willing seller willing buyer, to get land connected to the present reserves. The rules are different for acquired lands into the land that eventually will belong to the band as reserves will cease to exist. Many of the occupiers have leases with individual Indians and of course not recognized by the federal government. section 28 Indian act) Some do have federal leases and some go on for up to 99 years. all such things make treaty settlement take longer. and as additional lands are acquired in settlement the laws on that land are still to be decided. As for cashe. the deal is, the fed use money due to shortage of federal crwon land her, and the provicne is supposed to be putting up the land. But urban treaties are sort of difficlt land wise, not like in the interior where there is lot os it around. Consider the Musquiem . which part of UBC or the West side of Vancouver would be used? The federal houses in the West side have been shown to be of interest to that band.

Alci:

Lay it out to what you are referring...or quit hiding behind G West...

Others,... I'm sure... are dying to hear it.

Alci...oh Alci....where are you ?
C,mon Alci....how much does the G 'ster pay ya ???

maestro
Just because others don't recall when you decided to become engaged here at Tyee doesn't mean everyone has forgotten.

I read your posts.

Alci:

So...I know G West is retiring soon and passing the torch to either you (or maybe one UNnamed other), whether he likes it or not....but you yourself made the post to a party in the quasi- first person. Please explain...just like your grammar lesson in another blog.

As an example...if one says sh*t(noun) in a past post...what is the context....it could be a noun....a perhaps a verb...or ...??? in a subsequent post.

I'm sure ..(or then again am I also guilty of thinking for you ???) you have heard the classic Ebonics lesson re the multi -context "F" word which one can still download).

To quote you " I knew you'd bring it back......." ".....self interest...." So thus if YOU knew.... you should also follow through and explain with the rest of what ELSE one is thinking.

Actually, it's cheating, isn't it , if I ACTUALLY tell you what I was thinking...before YOU tell me what I was thinking...or else you'll have to tell me if I was wrong re: what I was thinking...correct? Let's start there.

Otherwise, no cigar, Cuban or otherwise.
When's G Wests' retirement party ???

What are you two prattling on about?
I see no connection with land claims, CBM, Indians or Calgary Business.

doggone;

fuggedaboudit...

Alci seems to like throwing boomerangs...and often forgetting to duck.

I had a post on topic that cyber space ate up....I'll go to Plan B and try again.

To the arguement that FNs did not mine traditionally therefore they should not be able to claim sub surface rights....

I say, OK then historical treaties like Treaty # 8 should also recognize that the 'Queen' never mentioned OSB Plants, and Oil & Gas development.... 'she only mentioned farming and lumbering so technically .........

Come on admit it... FNs were swindled and I too am ashamed of how Canada has dealt with First Nations.

I actually think now the Feds and Province want to sign off on treaty and then watch how many FNs fail, knowing how the Feds and Prov are negotiating or non-negotiating depending on the issue.

For example, at this point any 'Own Source Revenue' that the FN manages to bring in, will result in an equivalent deduction in Fed/Prov transfer payments.

In other words, successful FNs would be penalized.

What will happen if a Treaty FN fails (e.g. bankrupt)?

Will they no longer be a FN?

doggone.
Way up this comments thread, a creature calling him or herself, maestro implied he had a specific FN court case in mind when he said this:

emphasis his

All I asked for, and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer, was what case he was referring to.

If you count the total number of times I've posted anything on this thread, I think you'll find that's hardly 'prattling on', at least on my part.

Hi there Freebear

The deal is that if any section of a treaty fails, the remanded stays in place.It's right in the modern treaties as they are signed. All parties then would have to agree to rework the failed portion, that's written as well. A lot of , people were waiting for the Nisga to self destruct. hasn't happened yet. The Yukon groups seem to be doing OK. Nunavut is having problems.
Mineral rights would go to the band on the property now called reserves. the land is presently land set aside for Indians but owned by the federal government. Check the Indian act, it's quite clear on that point. Locatees can hold the land but don't own it.The band administers the land but don't own it either

doggone, mastro-bato is only here, I think on retainer or to show his troubled lil brain is mty!
First they (Corporations) came for the FN then they came for Us etc!

Alci:

Really,...No sense talking to ya...your blatantly obvious "mind made up" modus -operandi is simply to poke sticks and cry when one is bent into a boomerang before you grab -n'- toss the next one . Sorry dude, seen this act way too many times.

Why should I do any more than direct you into the right direction ? If you are into an issue, the info is accessible (excluding of course regurgitating ad- nauseum " the party line ").

If you think I am BS-ing you or pulling your leg...at least put it on TYEE record.

Because Xmas is coming,(and yes ..I know you shouldn't start a sentence with "because" )... I'll give you ONE tiny little hint...a Vancouver band whose 2nd letter in the name is " U" ....its all on -line.

Unlike you....someone like DPL (ie such as on this topic)engages in good constructive discussion , and whether we agree or disagree is often moot...Some TYEE commentators have obviously looked into their own forte'/ "pet" issues with much due - diligence, and benefit the rest of us by sharing it with us. Answers beget questions, questions beget answers...anything changed?

If you want to add something, go ahead..but, however, if you want to subtract something...consider going away and find the appropriate cyber-site.

PS BC Dude...same goes to you...and the Farrelly brothers may need you in their next blockbuster.

via 'must-row'

hahahahaha! fluid. good one. no whining then when the posse shows up armed to the teeth to test the 'fluidity' of your property line then!
I don't know why maestro you've got so much inclination to argue.
FN folks got fooked over when whites showed up here, and have been fooked around by legislation ever since. And, like it or not, whites and others are getting a lot of direct and indirect benefit from the spoils of colonization up to present day. A history of lies, that as the article illustrates, seems to continue and continue... it makes little sense to forget the past in this case.

maestro
Therefore, you lied, maestro; and you don't have a specific case to refer to.

Thanks for coming clean. I hope everyone else around here noticed too; more than your grammar and syntax are problematic.

Not only are you an agent, you're a prevaricator.

I'll let Stump know>

Again I had to scroll back to top to find out which thread we are currently worrying. Maybe Tyee should lable the comments section so I know what the original article was concerned about.
CBM and FN Chiefs agoing to Calgary. I got it.
I went to Calgary once to work for Imp. Oil (Minerals) - interesting town: IN SUMMER THE CENTRE WITH ALL THE HIGH RISE OFFICES THROWS OUT AN HEAVY DUTY 60 hERTZ HUM FROM ALL THE AIRCOS WORKING SO HARD. In the winter the heat pumps and furnaces are slightly quieter but still noticable. No sentient being should be expected to think clearly in such an environment

Did you notice the smell of roasting beef fat in some areas of Calgary? I found there were whole neighbourhoods where I couldn't avoid it.

Alcibiades:
No, but it reminds me of the last Canadian winner of the "Darwin" Award.

Now soma them Albertans are my best friends - in fact some are my sisters and brothers in law and nefews and such.
But I do not claim to understand what exactly they are focussed upon and I have tried to communicate.

Maestro your song "Another one bites the dust" bye, bye

me too doggone, me too. In some ways I've always seen living in Calgary as punishment enough. The year I was there my only thought was how the hell to fix it so I wouldn't have to stay for any longer.

They don't call it "Hughston North" for nothing.
(dang I know that's not how to spell Heuston - I simply can not spell)
There was a place where I had some trouble with the smell of fried fat: R. South Africa.
Since I was a whitey the people from Blomfontein thought I was one of them: they also loved the "Brie" (barbique) and my wife and I were invited to many. To bring this back on track I heard that the defunct "Aparthaid" government there sussed out Canadian Indian Reservation System before they put in place the weirdness of the "homelands".

Dunno if that's a fact or apocryphal but I heard (read?) it too - about the precedent for apartheid.

On Calgary/Houston and BBQ:

There's a scene in Tom Wolfe's book about the first American astronauts - The Right Stuff that I always remember whenever I smell beef and fat on the barbeque. It describes the scene when the first 7 of these guys are introduced at the Houston Coliseum. They come up from the air conditioned bowels of the building to be met by the public -

That pretty much catches Calgary for me - the same maniacal faces chowing down to a big plate of bloody meat.

I'm back to normal now: I can log out and in.
Since we got my wife's parents moved west I have not been back to what some consider to be the "west" in Canada.
I bought a Stetson a few years ago - best hat in the world for hot days. People look at me funny when I wear it though, I imagine they think I'm "drugstore".
Wolf:
I am not sure if I read "The Right Stuff" but I was impressed with the movie. That scene was well depicted even though one could not smell the "Burnt Horse Flesh".

So did our contingent of Chiefs survive the ordeal of the "Petrolium Club"?

Disappeared without a trace - far as I can tell.

It's a very good book, but I liked The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streanline Baby too.

Enjoyed the movie as well - it did catch that Houston moment very well.

My brother says it's the boots, not the hat that give a guy away. He says any drugstore cowboy waddling around in boots with riding heels is not serious - usually even if he is on a horse.

Then there is his short story: "Jousting with SAM and Charlie"
and the "acid test".
Tom Wolf could be qualified to contribute to theTyee comments!

I have the boots as well. The few times I got on a horse were laughable: one attempted to scrub me off against a fence post and the other stared down at me after I slid off over his neck when he stopped on a slight slope. So I'll do the small motors and someone else can look after the horses.
Was it "Eatons" years ago at Granville and whatever that main street coming in from Stanley Park is? No I think it was the "Bay" and though it may still be there I have not for many years. At some point way back then I went shopping for a new set of jeans. The fashion at that time was "Bell Bottom" and I had a bad time trying to decide just what length the legs should be. After modeling a number of these in the change room I went out to the (old fart) supposed attendant and wearing my possible purchase asked him about how high or low the hem of the trouser should sit on your boot. He said: " I guess that depends on how big your horse is."
And walked away.
I took off the Bell bottoms, folded them up and walked out. Never attempted to buy fashion since.

what the hell is going on?
I was logged in and tried to post a comment on some other thread. I was informed I should press my "Back button" and confirm my "user Name" while my "user name" was plainly visable to me. So, knowing a bit about computers and such, I did go ahead and push my "Back button" while imagining what a "back Button" might be if we did not have internet.
Something is fishey here Rafe

doggone: doggoned if you didn't have me laughing ... was that horse named Flossie? Jeez, I remember that horse.

"She's a good horse," said the gentleman cowboy who led her up and handed me the reins, "she threw every rider at the Anahim Stampede last year.

"Thanks," I said in a very small voice, and climbed into the saddle to spend two of the most miserable days of my entire life, during which Flossie took my measure and tried to peel me off against innumerable pine trees, just like you said, doggone.

The end came when we (Flossie and I, following two other riders) had to run down a little hill, hop a small stream, and proceed on into the forest. The two riders out front were discussing the meaning of life and the fate of the western world, utterly oblivious to the little drama that was unfolding as Flossie started down the little hill, stopped dead, and simply wouldn't move.

I would've been smart to have slid right down her neck and have had her stare at me. But no, nothing so dignified.

I called for help. My ex- looked back, sized up the situation, called, "Just lay on the leather and keep coming!" Yeah, that's what I figured, too, only Flossie had taken charge of the situation.

I still remember the feel of her mane as I laid my head down on her neck and let the tears flow, crying my eyes out, all embarrassed and humiliated and scared.

God, how I hated that horse. Well, for a few minutes I hated her. She won ... but she was a good horse ... she didn't scoff or sneer. In fact, she looked a little sorry when a real rider got on her back and ... well, laid on a bit of leather. Then she trotted across that stream so nicely, let me back into the saddle, and we returned to the ranch as if to the manner born. But I haven't been on a horse since.

Oh yes, I remember that horse. You, too, doggone, eh?

Yup!
And I remember how the horse performs when a "real rider" gets on. They know exactly how experienced the rider is.

Watched an Orca toss a trainer about somewhere in L.A. just today. Guess that trainer was not a "rider".
These animals are big and strong (horse and Orca) and I really can not blame them if they throw their weight around once in a while. In fact I'm surprised they put up with us at all - could be because we have (and use) serious detriments to "freedom of expression".

Well I guess the folks got tired of the story angry Chiefs etc. What in Gods' name has horses you used to know have to do with the article?

I didn't think anyone else was paying attention so my mind wandered.

Cowboys and Indians used to ride 'em or was that only in the movies?

In the case considered above the Oil "Honcho" could be referred to as the "Cowboy" and the Indians could be called - well - "Indians" for want of a better word.
"Little Big Man" neither a cowboy nor an indian, advises General Custer, a real cowboy's cowboy:
"You go down there, General!"
"Down there" refers to the "Big Horn"

So with this new government comming down soon I am thinking I'm going to position myself: Environment; I can do this! My kinda stuff here.
Lookin' after all that other stuff (Health, wars,education Blah blah blah) we will see

I hope this new Liberal leader the next government Will be the best thing for Canada?

Here's a little bit of BC light to ease the gov bs I've been listening to this & it’s awesome great for a chuckle.

http://www.bcfiberals.com/audio/joey_only_bcfightback.mp3