- Ms Kaye is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Mary Carlisle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Prem Gill is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nancy Flight is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Justin Everett is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- John Westover is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Nora Etches is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Edward Henderson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Bharadwaj Chandramouli is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Dean Chatterson is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Marius Scurtescu is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Robert Parkes is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- James Murton is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Susan Doyle is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Vincent Strgar is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Helen Spiegelman is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Subir Guin is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Kimball Finigan is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- Joanne Manley is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
- David Leach is a Tyee Builder. You can be, too.
Power Struggle Over BC's First Coal-Fired Plant
Critics say projects will pollute, fuel global warming.
Similkameen Valley: Proposed site
Brad Hope believes his plan to leave his picturesque Similkameen Valley ranch to his grandchildren has been soiled by B.C. Hydro's plan to erect the province's first coal-energy generation plant near his home.
Hope is the chair of Save Our Similkameen, a committee of concerned citizens that joins the B.C. Teachers' Federation, the Union of B.C. Municipalities, Princeton-area doctors and nine environmental organizations in calling on the province to re-think its support for coal-fired power generation.
The committee will use funds it has collected through bake sales and donation jars to deliver hundreds of letters contesting the $200 million Princeton Power Project to Victoria on Nov. 23.
Princeton's mayor, Randy McLean, is leading the grassroots effort to pressure the government into toughening its stance on coal. He believes the estimated 40 long-term jobs and electricity for 40,000 homes generated by the project will not offset the cost of pollution to real estate and tourism in the region.
BC rich in coal
McLean says he was not consulted during negotiations between B.C. Hydro and Compliance Energy Corporation to construct a 56-megawatt coal and wood residue burning plant at the Copper Mountain site near Princeton.
In September, B.C. Hydro awarded the 30-year contract to Compliance Power Corporation, a subsidiary of Compliance Energy Corporation, as part of its 2006 Open Call for Power in the private sector. It also awarded a 30-year contract to AESWapiti Energy Corporation for a 184-megawatt plant northeast of Tumbler Ridge.
The Princeton Power Project and Wapiti Power Development Project constitute the province's first experiments with coal energy. Both projects are expected to be operational by 2010, the same year Ontario has promised to phase out its use of coal- fired power generation.
B.C.'s growing energy demands and the abundance of coal in the province are behind the government's pursuit of coal-energy generation.
The Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources estimates that the 23 billion tonnes of coal in B.C. could generate about 100 times more energy than is required to meet the province's energy needs for the next 120 years. Until now, it has been excavated only for export.
In 2002, Richard Neufeld, minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, announced "the potential is huge to increase coal production for both domestic and export markets. The new energy plan is designed to facilitate that."
The government's philosophy on coal power was reiterated in its 2002 Energy for Our Future: A Plan for B.C. The plan determines "(because of) the role of coal-fired generation in B.C.'s electricity future, the province will adopt emissions guidelines for coal-fired power plants that will allow B.C. to compete for investment with neighbouring jurisdictions."
Coal firms: big Lib donors
Environmental groups say they are concerned that flexible emissions guidelines would allow the two coal-fired power plants to emit more pollution than the Sumas II power project that the Liberals opposed during the 2005 election campaign because of air quality concerns.
Wildsight's Energy and Mining Program manager, Casey Brennan, says he is not surprised that the government is "pro coal" because coal companies are top contributors to the Liberals.
"The government would love for this to go through without any trouble because they're friends of the coal industry and want to allow their friends to start burning coal," says Brennan. "They seem resentful that we're engaging the public in this kind of discussion."
Princeton's mayor is skeptical about the province's ability to balance the economic benefits of coal power with environmental and health effects. "The government owes a huge debt to the coal industry because it was the biggest contributor to the Liberal's election campaign," he says.
"There has been absolutely no public debate," the mayor says. "The government is hoping the coal-power proposals will slip in under the wire by putting plants in remote areas like a small valley where not many people live and in a place where people already make their money from coal."
However, Premier Gordon Campbell assures that "the government has fostered conversation in terms of the environmental assessments the projects go through. But it's like any conversation, you can come and sit at the table and be quiet or you can come and sit at the table and talk about it."
'Standards way too low'
Last week, Compliance Energy Corporation's CEO John Tapics was invited to engage in dialogue with a gathering of about 200 people in Princeton, where "there is very little support for the project," according to Hope.
Tapics believes "there won't be any effect on land, air or water because the company will be meeting all the provincial emissions standards." But, he adds, "it's up to the Environmental Assessment Office to take into account what the public has raised. It's not really our place."
Hope does not expect the public concern to resonate with Compliance, because "they're just trying to make as much money as they can. Our problem is not with Compliance, it's that the government has set their standards way too low."
Provincial responsibility for determining the environmental and health impacts of coal emissions is one of the few premises that critics and the corporation agree on.
"It's hard to blame the company because they're only expected to meet the standards the government sets out," says McLean. "It is the responsibility of the provincial government to raise the bar on environmental and emissions standards. I hope they raise the standards to require that zero emission coal-fired generation is enforced."
Critics of coal power say current provincial guidelines are ineffectual because they rely on self-regulation from corporations and emphasize a market-driven imperative.
The efficacy of the environmental assessment is questionable because it allows corporations to submit their own samples and conduct their own air emissions studies, says McLean.
Wood as fuel, too
Save Our Similkameen is skeptical that Compliance will be forthcoming about promises it makes during the environmental assessment, partly because requests to review assays and samples have been ignored.
Although the mine near Princeton produces export-quality coal, critics believe the plant will burn the waste coal it needs to dispose of even though low-grade waste coal emits more toxins into the air than higher-grade coal.
The terms of reference for the Princeton Power Project state that the plant will burn "up to 70 per cent wood residue," but critics question the meaning of the vague clause.
"If I was a betting man I would give really good odds that we're going to get the dirtiest coal burned in that plant," says Hope. "I know from the wood experts in town that it takes about two to four loads of wood to produce the same amount of energy as one load of coal. Are they really going to burn wood? Is that economically feasible?"
The Princeton project is in the pre-application phase of the environmental assessment, but Tapics hopes Compliance will submit its certification application by the end of the year. A 180-day review period, including 30 to 75 days for public comment, will follow.
Charges of rubber-stamping
The invitation for public comment does not consider form letters, petitions, or letters stating a position either for or against a project. The point is to identify the project's potential effects, says Brian Murphy, the environmental assessment director for the Princeton Power Project.
If a corporation complies with what is set out in the environmental assessment's terms of reference and works within current government policies, "then it gets approved by the EA office," says Murphy. "Stopping a project is not part of the Environmental Assessment Office's process. We look at the project's effects and try to prevent, minimize, or avoid those adverse effects."
B.C.'s environmental assessment has been designed to allow corporations to quickly push their projects through without the public's approval, according to Brennan.
"The EAO always issues an approval. There's never been a situation in British Columbia where a review has resulted in rejection of a project," he says.
Under the Environmental Assessment Act, a provision allows for a full public hearing on a project. However, such a hearing is unprecedented, according to Karen Campbell, legal counsel for the Pembina Institute.
Neither Campbell nor Brennan has much faith that the environmental assessment process will take Brad Hope's concerns for his grandchildren into consideration.
'Now is time to decide'
British Columbians opposed to coal are looking at how to proceed both within and outside the current government process. They want to slow down the approval process to create the opportunity for province-wide discussion on whether B.C. should burn coal.
"Now is the time to decide where we stand on coal-generated power as a province because right now we don't use any," says McLean.
In September, nine environmental organizations released a letter calling on the provincial government to include full public hearings in the environmental assessments of the province's first two coal-fired power plants.
According to the letter, the coal plants would release pollutants into the air and increase greenhouse gas emissions by as much as 1.7 million tons, or almost three per cent each year.
"I don't think the discussion should be started with these plants; we need to discuss as a province if we are going to have coal-generated power in B.C. and what it's going to look like if we do," says Karen Campbell. "The government is not calling for zero emissions or better standards on coal. In this day and age, that's completely unacceptable."
"Government regulations on mercury require a corporation to capture 75 to 85 percent of emissions. But there is no safe amount of mercury," she says.
The proposed circulating fluidized bed technology will significantly lower emissions over traditional coal-burning technology, according to Sierra Rayne, a postdoctoral researcher in chemistry, earth and environmental sciences at the University of British Columbia.
"In this type of boiler, there is optimized air flow over the coal or wood being burned, with much higher combustion efficiency, which results in more complete combustion of the material, generally lower pollutant levels in the emissions, and higher power generation overall."
Even with CFB technology, carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gasses, sulphur and nitrogen oxides and mercury emissions would still seep into the province's air and water causing harm to human health, according to a statement released by Princeton-area doctors.
Alternative energy?
Some critics are calling for a moratorium on coal in B.C. and propose exploring alternative energy like wind and solar power before turning to coal.
Others say provincial dialogue should focus on exploring clean coal technologies that capture carbon and produce zero emissions, such as gasification and sequestration, and enforcing them though rigorous government standards.
Although proposals to change the course of coal in B.C. are wide-ranging, a coalition of teachers, doctors, B.C. municipalities and citizens agree in their call for an expanded opportunity for public discussion on coal.
"If the project goes ahead, it should be subject to a full, province-wide public hearing," says Karen Campbell, who spoke at Save Our Similkameen's meeting in Princeton. "I don't think the consideration should be left to the Environmental Assessment Office because their duty is to comply with insufficient provincial standards."
Related Tyee stories:
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
- Death in Remand: a Tyee Inquiry
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- 'A Gut Feeling'
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- Why Blackberry's Embrace of HTML5 Is Good Karma
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
- Sexism Tinges Criticism of Teachers' Job Action
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- Bill C-38: the Environmental Destruction Act
- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
- Does BC Stand for Ban Clotheslines?
- BC biotech company seeks approval for GM apple
- Bias in BC's Pesticide Decision? Follow the Bouncing Verbs
- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- Does BC Stand for Ban Clotheslines?
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- Tyee Builders Tally: Amazing!
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- 'Storage Wars'
- How Our Immune Systems Exaggerate Fear
- Does Simon Fraser University Need a Men's Centre?
- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
- Why Blackberry's Embrace of HTML5 Is Good Karma
155
Login or register to post comments
Grumpy
5 years ago
Comments on "Power Struggle Over BC's First Coal-Fired Plan
other than the environmental issues, how are they going to get the coal to the plant? By train, by replacing the now torn up railway or by truck, tearing up our highways?
Grumpy
5 years ago
just a mention on my last posting, studies have shown that commercial vehicles do up to 90% of the damage on our public highways, now is Campbell& Co. going to subsidise the coal plant (not to mention the trucking industry) by allowing coal carrying trucks to use the public highways 365/24/7, in turn tearing them up, by transporting the coals?
PWB
5 years ago
Coal mining releases radon gas. We would be better off using nuclear reactors where nuclear waste can be controlled. Radioactivity released by coal mining, is not controlled!
Gary
5 years ago
Grumpy
I don't think we need to worry about the cost of highways. They still have a toll on the coca cola highway which has long since been paid foe. They could use that money. lol
Grumpy
5 years ago
Gary, grades and such will make almost impossible to keep up the supply unless 100's of tandem trucks will be used, anyways the 'Coke' is far too away from the Princeton to be of much use.
If one includes debt servicing charges on the full Coquihalla & Connector project, the cost has not been paid off yet. The provincial government play the same game with SkyTrain.
pure
5 years ago
BC HYDRO should stay with desiel and natural gas fired generators like the ones in Fort Nelson. Much cleaner then coal and the suppy is on hand at anytime.
alive
5 years ago
coal may well be a good energy source, but wind arrives by itself, no need for 100's of trucks to transport air!
alynner
5 years ago
Anyone know if there is a petition I can sign against this?
Where do I send a letter?
Peter Dimitrov
5 years ago
this is a crazy policy to promote coal-fired power generation, absolutely nuts. Is there a connection between the fact that the coal industry sector were big time contributors to the Fiberals - most would say yes. By forbidding BC HYdro from building more energy generation...and going with coal-generation power, and IPP's hydro project...we are losing, lost our ability to control our energy future. Indeed radon gas is a by-product of this process. As to the effectiveness of petitions, while they serve to educate the public, do you really think that petitions, letters are going to stop this. Check it out -the tens of thousands that signed the various petitions to stop the privatization of BC Hydro, BC Rail, ...no effect at all.
But what I am for...is more localization of political power. It seems the folks around Princetion and those with the coal -methane gas productions problems in the North and the Okanagan --ought to consider talking to each other, forming an alliance.
jwstewart
5 years ago
The Manitoba government just announced constructon of a 5 billion dollar hydro damn, Conawapa, mainly for export of electricity. It is somewhat controversial since they don't have firm contracts to sell the power.
I'm curious if Manitoba Hydro offered any of these 1250 megawatts to BC Hydro's open call for juice.
Of course, expecting two crown corps to cooperate to their own mutual benefit may be overly optimistic, but I'm curious.
Skookum1
5 years ago
Would that be the same table that CN sat at when it had dinner with the government over BC Rail? Or the same table that MacBlo sat at when it agreed to pay for Bill Bennett's election campaign in 1975, resulting in the Forests Act of 1976 which handed over most of the Government Reserve to the same company?
Hmmm......
maestro
5 years ago
RE: Wind power
Ironically, the actual working examples of the aforementioned seem to be built in the middle of NO-where...with maybe the odd gopher .....or coyote chasing the gopher.
BC doesn't really have a " NO where " ....always someone's Nimby -Ox who will be gored. Maybe a Kennedy can venture North and bless us with their presence and advise us.
Maybe hook them up around where and when Adrian Dix is speaking. Lad is shaping up to be the next potential NDP leader...right.....dare I say Premier ??? with Corky as perhaps 2nd choice.
Step easy
5 years ago
I think we all take the continued delivery of cheap power for granted. I wonder what the thousands of residents who have gone without power for several days now think regarding this issue?
coal derived power is terrible on the environment and in my view will be a step backwards for BC if this plant gets built. However, it is cheap, abundant, and creates the structure for steady, continuous voltage. which is more than can be said for most other alternatives. I'm all for the organic forms (wind, tidal, solar, rain??) even if it means paying more.
As Peter D says, as the citizenry we should unite our voices to ensure current environmental restrictions are revised.
maestro
5 years ago
Re Solar:
Solar works, or should one say more feasible, in places like Israel. Coastal BC too unpredictable, re clouds and farther North of the equator...shorter "sunlight" days et al at peak useage times(fall and winter). One needs predictability and assured supply.
Tidal...one always sees these " Popular Mechanics " types of prototypes ideas,... again tidal is synonymous with Ocean....ie $$$$ waterfront...again someone with the NIMBY-NIMFY Ox -goring who will be pissed - off with the intrusion on THEIR natural aesthetics.
(We're not even talking the Feds. the Dept. of Fisheries, and more bureacrats chasing fewer fish, not that that has ever stopped them).
Again, shave down the short list of viable practical predictable options.
BC Dude
5 years ago
So (Poster child for MADD) Gordon Campbell's Master's have come to collect their ill gotten treasures, the People/Citizens/Taxpayers of British Columbia's future God-given right to Clean Air and Our Rights to a Real Democratic Justice System!
This on top of the whole dirty conspiracy to cover up the 2003 B.C. Legislature Raids scandal!
This creature (Gordon Campbell) should be in jail and not making decisions for OUR future!
WE right now are the Guardians of OUR Children's Future!
DON'T LET OUR BC HYDRO GO!
BC Dude
5 years ago
Remembrance Day just passed, WE Remembered why these brave souls died, to make sure that Canada would always have OUR Democratic Rights and Freedom of Speech! These are slowly being denied US thanks to the "not so news" CanWest and Global television one and the same! Where is OUR watchdog the CRTC don't they have a law that states something about Consummer Protection against this Beast cantwest?
This same CanWest media should be brought up on conspiracy charges for the cover-up of 2003 Legislature Scandal! For the People of British Columbia and Canada as they have been silent on this Scandal of the Century That Goes All The Way up to the Federal Liberal Party?
We the people of British Columbia should show OUR disgust at this dictatorship/ government by gathering at the Court House in Vancouver on 24 November 2006 @9:45 a.m. almost three years after the Raids, WHY?
Methinks many big names and corporations are involved in all of this giveaway/Grand Theft of OUR Publicly Owned Corporations
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
http://houseofinfamy.blogspot.com/
BC Dude
5 years ago
Tyee search
Jan 28 05 Senate Comes to Scrutinize Big Media in B.C.
DPL
5 years ago
Speaking of coal, maybe Gordo is trying to sell a bunch to China or somebody else who wants power to do things. But no matter what we the tax payers want, we will get what Gordo wants. The way to stop this sort of thing is to drop Gordo out of government and take the ex socred minister Neufelt with him. Environment studies, no problem the present government won't read them. If there is a buck to be made by friends, hell Gordo will push to help them get richer. Maybe he can get CN to run a railway over that way. Big amounts of money never bothers Gordo. Hey he could go for the 3P's arrangement. we are heading back wards in sources of power in BC. next he will be talking nuclear as a clean safe power source.
pure
5 years ago
This coal business is a crazy idea. Gordon Campbell had stated when he was in power that he would not sell off BC HYDRO. I don't like the idea of IPP's. Once upon a time we had the lowest electrical rates in North America. We could wind up paying the most in North America at the rate Godo is travelling.
Gordo is basing so much aroung 2010 I can't believe the decision making that is going on in our Gov't with tax payers money......
pure
5 years ago
We give gordo the power to use tax payers money in good faith.
Where is the good faith?
pure
5 years ago
Gordon Campbell is responsable to keep his own back yard clean as a person. He has failed to keep it clean in Hawaii. So what makes me think his own back yard is clean as I type.
VOTE GORDON OUT NEXT ROUND AS HE HAS PROVEN UNFAITHFULL.
pure
5 years ago
When I vote, I like to make sure that the party I vote for has both wings attached, the left and the right on a 747 cannot fly with a right or left wing only.
NEXT ROUND VOTE FOR A PARTY THAT HAS THE LEFT AND RIGHT WING ATTACHED AND IS INSPECTED BY QUALIFIED PEOPLE.
To be honest with you I would like to kick his ass.
pure
5 years ago
Right this minute I should be watching HOCKEY and this is also GREYC CUP weekend.
GODO SHOULD STEP DOWN AS HE IS OVER HIS HEAD AS A PREM.
maestro
5 years ago
Who's Godo?
Is that an obscure Lord of the Rings character ?
Has Glenocchio's VISA got a $500 Millon limit ?
Speaking of planes and wings....the Left Wing-owes tend to maintain an anti-gravity holding pattern...fly in circles...then when the VISA is maxed out, the ol' death spiral. BC s' home grown version of Flight 93...and take us all down with them.
PS no "in -flight meals" except their own ilk at the same trough they accuse others of.
woody
5 years ago
Godo-thats something haraldkann likes to do in his pants.
Ya gota laugh at this one hardly-kann!!
sierra
5 years ago
To alynner, who asked about sending a letter about this issue. Check out the Sierra Club - BC Chapter website (sierraclub.bc.ca) for more info on the coal issue, and an action function to send letters to the Premier and Minister of Energy Richard Neufeld. And watch the site for more tools soon.
Kudos to the author of this article, Sunny Freeman. I'm really hoping the interest it's generating results in people like alynner and others letting their elected officials know that this is not acceptable. As long as they don't hear direct push back, they think they're doing a good job.
Yes, major party donors can have influence over party policies, but the first job of a politician is still to get re-elected. If enough people let them know they jeopardize that re-election by making dirty decisions like this one, they eventually have to listen. So letters and calls to your MLA, the Premier, Neufeld and Minister of Environment Barry Penner are all worthwhile.
So are letters to the editor - as you see more of these stories in other papers, write letters to make sure your opinions appear in those publications as well as the Tyee. Politicians monitor letters to the editor closely, in local papers as well as provincial publications. Use them to amplify your voice.
Umslopogaas
5 years ago
What we need is a power plant that burns sea lice. We seem to have lots of those.
TimL
5 years ago
Keep the Hydro in BC Hydro.
According to Rhodes and Beller"
"Among sources for electric power generation, coal is the worst environmental offender. Recent studies at the Harvard School of Public Health indicate that particulates from coal burning are responsible for about 15,000 premature deaths annually in the U.S. alone. [Wilson and Spengler (1996), p. 212.] To generate about a quarter of world primary energy, coal burning liberates a burden of toxic wastes too immense to bury in secure repositories. Such waste is either dispersed directly into the air or solidified and dumped or even mixed into construction materials. Besides noxious particulates, sulfur and nitrogen oxides (components of acid rain and smog), arsenic, mercury, cadmium, selenium, lead, boron, chromium, copper, fluorine, molybdenum, nickel, vanadium, zinc [Swaine (1990).], carbon monoxide and dioxide and other greenhouse gases, coal-fired power plants are also the major world source of radioactive releases to the environment. Uranium and thorium, mildly radioactive elements ubiquitous in the crust of the earth, are both released when coal is burned. Radioactive radon gas, a decay product of crustal uranium normally confined underground, is also released when coal is mined. A 1,000 megawatt-electric (MWe) coal-fired power plant releases into the environment about one hundred times as much radioactivity as a comparable nuclear plant. [Gabbard (1993), p. 7.] The U.S. Atomic Energy Commission actually investigated using coal as a source of uranium for nuclear weapons in the early 1950s when richer ores were believed to be in short supply; burning the coal, the AEC concluded, would concentrate the mineral, which could then be extracted from the resulting coal ash. [Lehman (1996), p. 20, citing Bisselle and Brown (1984).] Worldwide releases of uranium and thorium from coal burning total about 37,300 tonnes (metric tons) annually (the annual U.S. share of those releases is about 7,300 tonnes). [Alex Gabbard, personal communication.] More radioactive heavy metal is released into the environment every two years by coal burning than the total spent fuel waiting to be buried from all U.S. nuclear power production and most U.S. nuclear weapons production. [Calculated from Lehman (1996), p. 141.] Since uranium and thorium are potent nuclear fuels, burning coal also wastes more potential energy than it produces. [Gabbard (1993), p. 8.]
"One potential and overlooked consequence of the concentration of fissionable and fertile [3] minerals by coal burning is nuclear proliferation. The uranium liberated by one 1,000 MWe coal plant in one year includes about 74 pounds of uranium-235 (U-235), enough for two or more atomic bombs. [74 pounds: Gabbard (1993), p. 6. Critical mass for a U235 sphere surrounded by a thick uranium tamper, 15 kg: King (1979), p. 7.] The uranium would have to be enriched, which can be complicated and expensive; an easier course to proliferation would be breeding plutonium (Pu) from coal-derived uranium or fissile U-233 from thorium. Because electric utilities are not high-profile facilities, writes Oak Ridge National Laboratory physicist Alex Gabbard, collection and processing of coal ash for recovery of mineralscan proceed without attracting outside attention, concern or intervention. Any country with coal-fired plants could collect combustion byproducts and amass sufficient nuclear weapons materials to build up a very powerful arsenal. [Gabbard (1993), p. 10.]
pure
5 years ago
Fort Nelson has the largest DGS in BC. That would be the answer to more electricity as and when required. Yes, desiel and natural gas for the GEN SETS would be much more cleaner.
COAL IS A BAD MOVE....
pure
5 years ago
Are you a right winger? then don't vote.
pure
5 years ago
You voted for Gordon Campbell in office, so live it.
pure
5 years ago
We can't do anything about the 30 year contract now so just carry on with the new coal driven plants.
rosetti
5 years ago
Bonjour all
I am from the princeton area and have went to several of the meetings regarding this proposed coal fired electrical plant. The coal will be trucked from coalmont about 50 kms away and the road from coalmont to princeton is not a high volume road. Apparently, Compliance coal is stockpiling footwall and hangingwall coal and is running out of space to put it and needs to use it for something. The coal in the middle is being used to supply carbon needs to LaFarges. During the forest fire in Manning park we in princeton experience some horrific smoke problems. Many residents are afraid that the smoke and sulfur will pollute our pristine atmosphere. In addition, the mercury emissions from the stack is also a scarry prospect. My daughter is asthmatic and if this plant comes in I will leave. If I want to smell shit, I will go to chilliwack or castlegar and at least be closer to services. ( most of the services have been shut down or reduced to an intolerable level by Gordo etc).
tx Rosetti
RickW
5 years ago
jwstewart:
You think Manitoba's Conawapa is related to Nawapa?
http://www.committeerepubliccanada.ca/spip/article.php3?id_article=46
See if you can find this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Canadas-Water-Richard-C-Bocking/dp/0888620284
Written in 1975 (or thereabouts). Excellent read, and nothing has changed.
Peter Dimitrov
5 years ago
upon reading the various comments posted by folx, I find it hard to believe that there are folx that still believe that letters to the editor, and petitions to sign are going to change things. That sort of naievity will get us no -where fast. Remember, when the French government tried to stuff some stupid employment law onto young people...remember what happened..a grand alliance was formed ...hundreds of thousands took to the street...there was several days of general strike..and the government withdrew the legislation...that my friend is how to do it. But that is France, and this is BC,...and we are so distracted by hockey, the Grey Cup, the new sony playstation ....X_Mas, etc etc. If we want to win this battle over 'coal' ...focus, focus, and there is a dire need to form 'un grand alliance' of people power. Will it happen...very, very dubious. ..and thus the Fiberals can keep doing the stupid 'dictatorial' stuff ad nauseum...and we'll write about it, bitch about it, cry about it, but ultimately do nothing except put up with it.
pure
5 years ago
Rosetti, Chilliwack is a great place with lots of services.
RickW
5 years ago
The bulk of the power to be generated is destined for the lower mainland, so why not put the generator IN the lower mainland? Coal can readily be pulverized and transported via pipeline. No planes, trains, and automobiles required!
By building the generator close to the area where consumption is most likely, there would be minimal loss through transmission. AND, the people of the lower mainland could enjoy the fallout as well as the power itself.........
alive
5 years ago
Now you are talking!
We need people who can and will speak up!
BC Dude
5 years ago
I think this coal fired thing is a ruse to take the HEAT off the real issue,
CORRUPTION AND ORGANIZED CRIME ARE IN THE BC LIBERAL PARTY
When Gordon Campbell and his cartel is finally brought to justice by a real court for real justice for the PEOPLE!
I believe that all the contracts that the Gordon Campbell government has signed should be null and void!
I classify this as a war against the PEOPLE of BC by a treasonous Gordon Campbell and his chicken, cowardly MLA’s.
Come on you liberal MLA's are you scared of ruining your reputations?
I'll guarantee you one thing, that when Campbell is kicked out of power and he will be, your reputations and future in politics will be very bleak!
He's nothing but a traitor by selling off and giving away OUR Public Utilities and OUR Corporations.
Moosebeer
5 years ago
A coal-fired power plant is not the way to go. Too many environmental issues that must be considered.
BC Dude
5 years ago
And where are these so-called Investigative reporters from CanWest?
If this was the NDP's scandal it would be all over the media for the last three years as headlines!
I rest my case
Once more let me remind you what fascism is. It need not wear a brown shirt or a green shirt - it may even wear a dress shirt. Fascism begins the moment a ruling class, fearing that people may use their political democracy to gain economic democracy, begins to destroy political democracy in order to retain its power of exploitation and special privilege.
T.C.Douglas
Name goes here
5 years ago
I have a modest proposal that will solve our energy needs and our environmental problems. Let's burn the environmentalists, and harness the energy they release. This will simutaneously satisfy our energy needs, and we will no longer have an environmental problem.
Skookum1
5 years ago
They're too skinny, what with all those vegetarian and eco-friendly diets. Besides, it's pretty obvious fat cats would give off more heat...gasbags, too.
Name goes here
5 years ago
Of course, my proposal is only a joke. I am tired of the economy vs the environmental debate. The environmentalists will always lose to those with the money and power.
What adds more to the economy:
(1) 50 cars or one bus and 50 passengers?
(2) 50 inefficient houses or one "green" apartment block?
(3) urban sprawl or wilderness?
(4) war or peace?
(5) a logged tree or a spotted owl?
(6) a drug bust or after school programs.
(7) coal fired power plants or efficient houses?
Skookum1
5 years ago
better to ask which COSTS more to the economy.
The answers are:
1) 50 cars, who need a huge carbon footprint (incl. energy used to mine, smelt and fabricate metal etc) that will create immense costs to the immediate world, as well as coming generaitons
2) 50 inefficient houses, whose development will add to the need for more roadways and other infrastructure, which taxpayers are expected to pay for rather than the developers who made the money-now economic benefits
3) urban sprawl costs huge (see above)
4) war
5) a logged tree, especially if it hasn't been made into anything before it's sold to China or Japan
6) a drug bust, which doesn't solve anything but sure makes criminals happy (other than the ones who got busted) because it jacks up prices in the drug market; the more busts, the higher the profits
7) a coal-fired power plant, which not only leaves a bad ecological aftertaste but also requires public money, resources and bureacratic and political backing all of which would have been better applied elsewhere.
It would help if people stopped defining "good for the economy" on a quarterly basis....
Or is that what you meant?
TimL
5 years ago
Skookum1, if you're ever taken an economics class, you know there are no costs (except from an arbitrary perspective for certain projects), and that within the general macroeconomic framework they are a good thing, on par with benefits. Oil spills, inefficient housing starts, and retail sales of cigarettes are all the same and all good.
Even still, one bus and 50 passengers might add more to the BC economy. The reason is that buying cars is the surest way to send money flying out of the BC economy with very little of a multiplier effect. True, it is money spent quickly, keeping the economy humming, but if 50 people took the bus instead of buying 50 cars they could still spend the money, but on other stuff, say entertainment, restructuring the economy and the labour market. If you look through David Baxter's summary of BC's economic base (exports), it's a little sad driving through places like Williams lake or Cranbrook, seeing the countless parking lots filled with expensive gas-guzzling vehicles, indicating how quickly there hard-earned dollars will go far away.
Ever concerned with economic growth, and status-quo industrial/labour interests, few are prepared to work whole-heartedly on much needed structural changes in the economy towards sustainability.
Nobody has got the guts, which explains the move to coal power. It's hard to imagine how either of the two main political parties in BC could be up to the challenge, given the strong tendency to compromise with status-quo interests in order to rise to power. The only hope would appear to be with independant-minded MLA's, the Greens, and civil society, although if we burn environmentalists for energy, even that force for structural changes to the economy may be lost.
rosetti
5 years ago
To Pure et al
Sorry about any sensibilities I insulted
with my Castlegar/chilliwack comment. Both communities have a lot going for them. I was alluding to the smell of cow manure in Chilliwack and the smell of the pulpmill or smelter (depending on the wind direction) in Castlegar.
Name goes here
5 years ago
Skookum
Thanks for replying.
Costs, adds. It's really all the same thing when measuring the GDP. You are correct of course.
I find it exasperating also when watching the news, we can see an item about global warming (the loss of polar bear habitat, forest fires etc) and then the announcer will carry on, "Now here are today's market numbers".
pure
5 years ago
It makes a person think of a 30 year contract. I would really like to review the 30 year contract and all of the other RFP's before the award was made. Just curious on how I would have evaluated the RFP's and made my recommendation.
Skookum1
5 years ago
Well, I think it's high time that our legal system should start calculating and calling to account the costs to the public caused by toally venal decisions made by politicians and bureaucrats. The immediate example that comes to mind is the costs to business and individuals of the contamination of our water supply because of logging in the watersheds.
Those of us old enough remember when the GVRD and the logging companies claimed that logging the watersheds was going to somehow IMPROVE water quality. Who were those officials who called those shots and made that rationalization, and which companies was it that got the trees and how much money did they make? Those profits should be recoverable, as the forest companies either LIED or they didn't "log properly", and IMO the public officials who made the decision should also be liable, either to forfeit property and pensions or to actually have to DO TIME. A letter in the Sun today pointed out that there's going to have to be $300 million spent on a filtration plant (or has it been spent already?) and it looks like there's going to have to be slope remediation to prevent future landslides; if the damage isn't in fact irreversible, as it probably is.
Why should the public have to pay for the collusion between stupid/bought officials and companies who took advantage of the gullibility/cooperativeness of friendly officials? A class action suit against the companies and the by-now-retired public officials who OK'd this seems a propos; it's not the GVRD (i.e. the taxpayers) who should be sued, but the guilty parties, and those who profited from obviously misleading and patently false "science".
Ditto with the huge infrastructure costs created by urban sprawl, which are never fully reckoned into realtors/developers' profit margins, or into house prices, with the public expected to pick up the tab a few years, or many years, down the line. If the populations of Maple Ridge, Langley and the prosaically-named "Northeast Sector" had been laid out with some thought to infrastructure costs, or better yet had been concentrated in the core urban areas, we wouldn't have to have spent as much on roadways, bridges, and the ridiculous costs of SkyTrain in order to keep them liveable (more or less) parts of the metropolis.
It's time for cost accounting to deal with all this. And for economics professors to cut it with the guff and start dealing with 100-year and 500-year timespans, instead of just quarterly reports.
Skookum1
5 years ago
sorry, I forgot to add to that: "and for the criminal justice system to deal with officials, either for negligence or corruption or BOTH". If that means putting forest company execs and retired deputy ministers and cabint ministers and GVRD board members in jail, or at least the poorhouse, that's only fair, considering the damage done to everybody else by their own short-sightedness/lies/greed.
Global reports the Health Authority as saying there have been no reports of gastroenteritis since the water advisory. No reports doesn't mean no illness; my best friend has been sick since brushing his teeth the other night, without knowing of the advisory; fever, headaches, diarrhea, and knows from asking the pharmacist that all he can do for it is drink lots of water. Maybe the Health Authority or GVRD or whomever makes this kind of stupid statement shouldn't be considering hospital admissions or doctor visits and ask around the pharmacies instead, huh? Because they're the front-line in crises like this; nobody who's got diarrhea, fever and headaches is going to want to wait four or five hours in emergency, or one-two hours in a doctors' waiting room; especially when as it turns out all they can do is hydrate themselves to try to flush the bug out.
Liars, thieves, miscreants, apologists all. Pretty disgusting that excuses and denials are already in circulation, and potentially fatal given the types of infection water contamination can incur.
Skookum1
5 years ago
Downwind from Princeton is the 'fourth pillar' of the province's tourism industry (after Vancouver, Whistler and Victoria), and it already has a smog problem of its own; I guess the coal-fired plant at Princeton is meant to "improve" Okanagan air quality the same way logging the watersheds was supposed to improve the water, huh? And hell, the trees are already all dead from pine beetle anyway, so who cares about a little bit of acid rain?
Could all turn out to be amusing when Washington State turns the tables on BC and blocks the Princeton coal plant; because the leachate from the mine and associated industrial facilities is going to have an affect on the Similkameen and Okanogan Rivers (note the American spelling) and so is subject to IJC regulation. And downwind from Princeton includes the Interior of Washington as well as of BC. Hmmm....should be amusing to watch Washington environmentalists and government team up to block this.
How many more P3's is Campbell going to foist on us before we kick him and his cronies out anyway? What won't they have sold off between now and the "fixed election date"?
RickW
5 years ago
NIMBY at work, S! The biggest bitch Vancouverites had this week was finding coffee for the morning commute when the rain washed mud into the reservoirs. And that was somehow the GVRD's fault for not having filters in place in anticipation.....even though many climate modellers had predicted just this scenario years ago.
If Vancouver (note the BC Hydro ads on the tube) wants power, then the generators should be close to the consumption areas. Then either the people would turf the bums who want to put in old technologies, or go for something much more efficient, or (gasp!) maybe even cut down on what they use so unthinkingly.
http://www.re-energy.ca/t_biomassenergy.shtml
pure
5 years ago
One thing is water and the other is excellent, clean, clear and fresh drinking water. If we had lots of pure good water we could solve a lot of problems. BC HYDRO
pure
5 years ago
BC HYDRO could use lots of water and I mean lots of water for dam sites to produce enough electrical power for BC for years and years.
pure
5 years ago
The demand for electricity will be 1000 times more 100 years from now. Why? imigration and living space coupled with road ways, walk ways, parks, parking and you name it in this province.
pure
5 years ago
The provnice of BC is buying electrical power from the USA now. Why? as we have not got enough electricity in BC at present the time to be self supporting.
woody
5 years ago
More good shit from the lower main land.
Where to get some Quality Dirt?
by ..... ....... on Tue, 09/05/2006 - 14:01.
I have been on a mission lately to find healthy dirt for my garden.
Does anyone know of any quality dirt sources that deliver?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nutrifor for the home
Submitted by ..... ...... on Fri, 12/05/2006 - 15:08.
Depends on what you mean by "clean". I would strongly suggest investigating the GVRD's Nutrifor program. Nutrifor is essentially bio-solids: or more frankly, what comes out of the business end of a sewage treatment plant. The volume of bio-solids generated in the GVRD is not something that will diminish any time soon and the GVRD is working to find environmentally responsible means to dispose of or reuse it.
With the technology available (esp. at Annacis Island treatment facility) the GVRD is able to do advanced testing on the "product", enabling bio-solids to be ear-marked for a variety of uses.
Gardeners will be interested to know that there is a pilot program in effect to test a Nutrifor landscape growing medium. The GVRD will deliver to your home for free. The mix includes 20% bio-solids, 40% sand and 40% composted muncipal garden waste. It meets or exceeds local organic farming standards (though for more details visit the website).
Having used it myself, it is amazing stuff: 15ft sunflowers, a 7ft high bay tree, etc. Everything I have tried to grow has flourished. When we think about issues around re-using waste, Nutrifor offers an interesting alternative. However, if we are serious about re-using our waste, we need to start thinking very carefully about what we put into our waste water stream. The GVRD is constantly dealing with heavy metals (titanium, mercury, molybdenum, etc), not to mention medicines, hormones, etc. As a result, only a very small proportion of the bio-solids leaving Annacis are suitable for residential garden use.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following link shows where this good shit ends up at.
http://www.bearspage.info/h/ar/sh.html
loverofalllife
5 years ago
Eh what? Change the provincial government? Crazy or what? We had the opportunity just a few short years ago and guess what? After all Gordo's antics: drunk, selling BCH, ferries, BC Rail, etc. and we still voted in Gordo (albiet NDP did win quite a few ridings but somehow hasn't managed to hold GORDO's party feet to the fire), hospitals and P3's (downgraded wages), overruns, and yet he still was elected?? I really don't have any hope any longer for my Province to come to its senses and vote out this most awful political party.
Skookum1
5 years ago
You seem to be moving the chinaware, RickW, in trying to change the conversation. It's the GVRD's fault for us needing to filter reservoir water in the first place. How old are you? When did you move to BC? DON'T YOU GET IT??
During the 1980s, the clearcut-happy Social Credit regime (the illegitimate parent of today's bastardized Liberals) and their buddies on the GVRD board alllowed their friends to make a little bit of boodle by clearcutting the watersheds FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER. Promising that it wasn't going to impact water quality.
The trees that were taken out were the "filter" that we no longer have and now need; either you don't understand that, or know that it happened, or you are just another detractor/disinformationist who wants to say "waaah, Vancovuerites are whiners, grow up" as a way of saying that big money and corrupt government can do anything they want. And that any excuse will do. The point is that somebody made a lot of money by screwing with the city's natural filtration system and f&&king aroundwith public health risks.
The filtration plant should be paid for by the logging companies who hornswoggled the GVRD into the logging, and by the officials who approved this stupidity. And if it's found that reports on degradation of water quality that would result from the then-proposed logging were suppressed, criminal charges should be pending, as well as civil suits.
The connection between Princeton and the reservoirs isn't NIMBYism, it's corrupt and stupid politicians; and "environmental denialism".
What Hydro's ads aren't saying in those ads is that if "we" hadn't sold off the downstream benefits of the Columbia River Treaty, there'd still be lots of power. And THAT's the NDP's fault, but it's not like the Liberals would have done it differently. But you're right about having the generators in areas where the consumers who use the power are the ones who should have the dirty air and the flooded valleys; same idea as there's no reason why the fragile desert country Ashcroft-Cache Creek should have to swallow all Vancouver's diapers and other disposables; as if the province were only an oubliette for the Vancouver - which is certainly the attitude of Vancovuerites towards the rest of the province, even the rest of the Lower Mainland; just somewhere else, out of sight, out of mind. Wasn't always like that, as at one time most Vancouverites had connections, family or otherwise, outside their own ethnic/commercial enclaves here. And many new Vancouverites come from countries where environmental degradation is accepted as the norm, and largely don't care.
And yeah, one other interesting tidbit is that because of resistance in powerlines, less than 10% of Peace River hydro power reaches the border, even less reaches the destination markets in the US (most large projects in BC were built not for BC consumers, but for US ones; this includes pre-Columbia Treaty projects like Bridge River and some of the Kootenay ones).
So here's an alterante idea: decentralize the economy. Rather than bringing power to a burgeoning and ill-planned Vancouver, it's time to let people live where the power is. Hudson's Hope may be cold, but if you're playing Nintendo and zapping your food in microwaves and all that other power-chewing stuff, who cares about what's outside? OK, OK, you can't just decentralize cities like that. But you can decentralize generation, house by house, building by building.
Kam Lee
5 years ago
I think this coal fired thing is a ruse to take the HEAT off the real issue,
CORRUPTION AND ORGANIZED CRIME ARE IN THE BC LIBERAL PARTY
When Gordon Campbell and his cartel is finally brought to justice by a real court for real justice for the PEOPLE!
I believe that all the contracts that the Gordon Campbell government has signed should be null and void!
I classify this as a war against the PEOPLE of BC by a treasonous Gordon Campbell and his chicken, cowardly MLA’s.
Come on you liberal MLA's are you scared of ruining your reputations?
I'll guarantee you one thing, that when Campbell is kicked out of power and he will be, your reputations and future in politics will be very bleak!
He's nothing but a traitor by selling off and giving away OUR Public Utilities and OUR Corporations.
How many more P3's is Campbell going to foist on us before we kick him and his cronies out anyway? What won't they have sold off between now and the "fixed election date"?
Both writers were bang on. Gordo is a dangerous person. Driven by booze, drugs, and corporate slime. I want my province back. Lets get him out before he spills another drink,has another line, and sell off more of our BC.
maestro
5 years ago
Hey Woody:
Good stuff...(and I can still eat my breakfast !).
FYI. .......The GVRD IONA ISLAND treatment plant had, and may still have, a pile of processed sewage aka a dirt pile outside its gates anyone was free to take. However, the concerns, valid or otherwise, are the Heavy Metals etc, that may remain once the sewage treatment process has finished with it. If this issue is solved, the soil would likely be prime.
Otherwise, an ex farmer who went into the greenhouse business told me once that the Soil Biz is often a scam....Check out the yards that produce it and see how much sawdust and peat etc is next to the screen which often pulls out all sorts of other crap. Apparently there is no "standard"...and one may get polluted crap by someone who(i) removed it froma site and (ii) then re -processed it as "top soil" to double dip $$$ on dumping fees.
Bagged soil is getting as expensive as bottled water....and last time I looked a load of so-called "Top Soil" cost way over $200 delivered. Try composting and adding it...I seem to recall reading the Chinese peasants used to "have a dump" in the fields at night...called it " Night Soil" ...and helped fertilize their own fields.
Otherwise...maybe bring a rechargeable flashlight LOL .....and good luck.
Skookum1
5 years ago
Powerex/Hydro is pushing P3 power development because it wants to sell more money, er, power, into the continental grid, not because British Columbians really need it. THEY created the need. For example, Hydro spent a big chunk of its first decade hyping people on electrical appliances, esp. electric baseboard heaters which as everyone knows are a lot more expensive than central heating....
The model should be buildings like that one where Caper's is on West 4th; no grid is necessary when a building generates its own power. Sure, that doesn't work for most heavy industry, but it does work for most commercial/residential development
Now, if only we could find a way to generate power from the hot air coming out of the mainstream media and various politicians.
maestro
5 years ago
Skookum 1:
Re the water quality...et al
Question :
Have you ....(or any other TYEE commentator) actually been on a watershed tour...and specifically the Capilano reservoir .
Specifically,..I am talking about tours which are offered by the GVRD to the public ...(or used to be), which allowed one guided access behind the normally "restricted access" locked gates.
They are very enlightening.
PS Let me know, I'll comment later.
Skookum1
5 years ago
No, I've never been into the reservoirs, even if yokels like you are willing to contaminate them because the hypesters at the GVRD say it's safe. My Dad was with Hydro and had to take a month's worth of piss-tests - about three or four - prior to going past the Cleveland Dam.
I could give a shit if the GVRD is offering tours; that's just p.r. to back up their shoddy policies, and you're a willing tool.
The watersheds were sacrosanct for over a hundred years and should have remained that way. I don't need a tour of what should be pristine landscape (but isn't any more) to try and persuade me otherwise.
"Enlightening"? You should learn more about what "enlightenment" means, other than the uses it's put to be p.r. and marketing people.
maestro
5 years ago
Gee Skookum 1...
Can you please, at the very least, freely speak your mind???....You are far TOO ambiguous , at least for me.
I humbly apologize from my previous comment...it was obviously (???)far too loaded with propogandized and subjective party-line comments and inferences...wasn't it ???
(Unlike yours..which I will print off and frame above my solar powered beer fridge and use for future reference).
Skookum1
5 years ago
Who can be a wheedler all you want, Maestro. Suits you.
IAMC
5 years ago
If we need more power then we should raise the rates that BC Hydro charges per KWH. We pay about 5 cents per kilowatt hour. That's about the cheapest rate in the world. Most places pay about 20 cents per KWH.
Now of course this cheap power is a competitive edge for BC, so if you want that to continue, just sit back and enjoy the status quo.
Raising the price of power would encourage conservation and negate the need to build more generation sources.
Of course coal is more dangerous than nuclear power plants or dams.
I would raise the price slightly, and either build Sight Sea dam or a nuclear power plant in Princeton.
Skookum1
5 years ago
"Who" should have been "you"......time for more coffee....but you're still a wheedler, Maestro.
G West
5 years ago
Ron, DO you EVER read the essays at the start of these little bun tosses?
You might want to roll back through the archives on the hydro issue fella, your threadbare underwear are showing.
TimL
5 years ago
I forget the stats from the old 2001 BC Energy Plan, but I recall a relatively small number of companies consumed something close to 2/3rds the electricity in BC. Cheap energy really is a subsidy, or comparative advantage, for BC, if attracting energy consumptive industries is our aim, relieving the burden from countries actually meeting their climate change obligations. Even china, faced with massive brown-outs, is starting to use its discretion about the utility of things like aluminum smelters. They're saying, nah, let places like Canada make aluminum, we've got better priorities. I haven't seen any sign whatsoever that the BC Liberals have changed their outlook of trying to make BC good for investment, any investment, particularly investment from campaign donors - quid pro quo. Smart politics, but that's all. I'm sure even the NDP too would drill holes through mounains, or move mountains, just too prop up a polluting industry in, say, Kitimat. Such places places have far more potential than that.
IAMC
5 years ago
G, what part of my statement do you disagree with, or do you simply disagree with anything I say?
I am on subject here and my thoughts are original on this thread. I was the first to encourage conservation, rather than building a coal fired power plant. Now if we are not interested in conservation, then a dam or nuclear power plant is the way to go. In Princeton.
G West
5 years ago
You make a point about current BC Rates for power. But you appear to be completely ignorant about how the Campbell government has changed the rules for all future generation from hydro sources in the province...and the rates BC's citizens will have to pay for it. This coal-fired plant is just a very small part of the sell out of this province's energy potential and resources to entities, which have nothing to do with the best interests of the PEOPLE of this province.
You need to do some more reading Ron - your thoughts aren't even up to the level of thoughts if you haven't understood the whole of the Hydro issue. You are never the 'first' to do anything Ron, sorry. You're always too late and too light.
pure
5 years ago
What happens to the PCB's from BC HYDRO.
Any comments.
The brain
5 years ago
Geez, this whole article pisses me off, not because its not well done or anything, because it is... its just what the article is saying. Its disturbing that this nation, this country is about to exerience a major CO2 emissions crunch in terms of Kyoto, and BC's building coal fired power plants? Ontario's getting out, BC's getting in? Don't they know about the mercury? Don't BC residents know that there is already mercury that is airborne landing here from China from their coal plants for christ sakes, and we want to knowingly pollute our own backyards here too, with mercury of our own? Aren't the great lakes a testament? Didn't Ontario learn anything from their failed experiments? Can't we ever learn from bad examples of this extreme? Do British Columbians not have an idea in their heads as to where this coal plant plume will drift?
What are British Columbians thinking, to let the coal industry lobby own and run Campbell's corrupt bunch in office?
To this end, the solution's lie in an increase in electricity prices in BC to increase efficiency, but there is much more to be done. Out of every kilowatt we generate, the energy needed to produce and transport it before it gets utilized, is 9 X's that. We lose a full 2/3rd of the energy we use, wether its pressure from dams or pressure from heat, to generate electricity. Once the energy is produced at approx 33% efficiency, we lose a further 2/3rds of the power produced through delivery by powerlines. All in all, by the time power shows up at our door, we are 11% efficient.
My point? We need to be more efficient with our infrastructure besides looking at the environmental risks of new kinds of power generation. Locations are huge in considering power generation potential and to that end, future dam projects need to be looked at more seriously, along with the entire untapped industry of geothermal power.
British Columbians are sitting on a gold mine of geo thermal power generation potential all along the entire coast and some parts of the southern interior. This province could be a world leader in terms of how to further enhance the technology and location feisabilities for all practical scales of power generation from large to small. BC Hydro needs to allow British Columbians the right to generate their own sources of power and to become exporters of electricity through BC Hydro.
The BC government, when we finally get an honest one, needs to set residence standards of power generation (must be a BC resident taxpayer), and environmental standards that ban the use of coal fired plants (along with CBM) until safe power generation methods for the environment come along. So far, the technology is not here. In the meantime, we should be pursuing geothermal, tides and other forms of clean energy potential. This is where BC Hydro's future could be headed... instead of building a bunch of mercury polluting greenhouse gassers, improve infrastructure, raise the price to force energy conservation, and allow private power generation for personal use and to sell to BC Hydro upon the contingency that the seller is a BC resident taxpayer (keeps ownership at home).
The brain
5 years ago
pure:
PCB's are byproducts of manufacturing plastics or the breakdown of finished plastic products by fire, sunlight or heat. Most PCB's enter our systems from food packaging. From what I am aware of, Mercury and CO2 is the big danger with coal.
Dams, outside of expropriated valley bottoms to hold dam water, are considered to be clean energy along with geothermal, winds, tides, solar... outside of the energy and resources it takes to make up such startups of power generation. When considering nuclear power, the resources it takes to enrich uranium makes nuclear power a dirty proposition, not to mention risks of a nuclear plant leak and nuclear waste.
Out of a nuclear power plants power production, a full third of the energy the plant produces, is consumed by the oil and energy needed to mine the uranium and build the plant needed to generate the power. Nuclear power is anything but clean.
BC has the potential with its mountains and waters and coastline and faultlines to generate all of the green power it wants. There is absolutely no need for any provincial BC government now, or in the future, to go such a dirty route of power generation.
And, for what its worth, BC should seriously look at the non exploitation of certain resources, including coal and gold. Gold just isn't a precious metal in terms of human needs. Gold doesn't justify the need to damage the environment with atmospheric acid leaching and coal, well, it gets burned by our customers... BC needs to become a world leader in terms of setting specific environmental standards and goals, leaving a model for the world to follow.
There are ways to keep the coal industry from collapsing. What is needed is offers and guarantee's by BC Hyrdo to attract coal corp capital away from the development of coal resources and towards geothermal. This can be done through share investment by coal companies into geothermal projects.
And the federal government could do more. We are due for another home energy efficiency policy. The government should look into grants that targets efficiency of furnaces, looking more seriously at heat to water to air exchange conversions, along with grants for geothermal loops. There is much that can be done in this area.
The Canadian federal government could also look into increasing the mileage and emissions standards for all auto's manufactured in Canada. The Canadian government could also look into phasing out coal generation power plants all together with a major focus put on green power generation and conservation.
woody
5 years ago
IAMC said,
From what I could locate, your not far off the mark IAMC, someone else had the same idea, but it got killed by what I would guess was the government of the day.
SIMILKAMEEN RIVER HYDROELECTRIC PROJECT A hydro power dam is planned on the Similkameen River about 13 km south (upstream) of Princeton, B.C. (near Copper Mountain just south - upstream of the present mining activities). The dam should be about 500 ft. high and the reservoir will be 14 km long (the elevation of the crest will be 3,070 ft.). The dam should provide 22 Megawatts to the Tulameen, Princeton, Hedley, and associated regions. This area is at the extreme western end of the present supplier's (West Kootenay Power) distribution system and is subjected to many supply problems. The company proposing the project is Princeton Light & Power Co., Ltd., contact: John Hall, Box 908, Penticton, BC.C., V2A 7G1, Phone: (604) 492-3172, Fax: (604) 492-7323. Environmental etc. study is done by Environment & Socio-economic Consultants, contact: Tom Griffing, Ph.D., Griffing Consultants Inc., 4776 Cedar Tree Lane, Delta, B.C., V4K 4G6, phone: (604) 940-0424, fax: (604) 946-5344. (BEN # 24 21-January-1992)
woody
5 years ago
I can't remember if it was Pure or BC Dude who posted this site last week on a different story, it warrants looking at, Im curious as to what others here will think of this story, personally after reading this story I suspect all the projects such as the Princeton Power Project will have carte blanche to proceed.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/westview/story/3758460p-4345834c.html#top
BC Mary
5 years ago
Want to get a little closer to Premier Campbell so you can shout in his ear?
Join the rally on 22 November at 2:00 PM, on the steps of the B.C. Legislature.
Raging Grannies have written a new song (with a little help from their friends) as part of their protest about a 1-day session instead of a full Fall Session.
Singing and speechifying begins at the exact time all the M.L.A.s are sitting down to ... er, cough ... work. If we sing loudly enough, maybe the people's representatives will come out and join us ... even listen to us.
One song goes to the tune of "Billy Boy, Billy Boy" ...
Why don't you come down here in front,
Gordie boy, Gordie boy?
Where've you been the past six months,
Premier Gordie.
Did you have to run and hide?
Someone told us that you'd died,
And we really, really cried,
Premier Gordie.
Are you scared to face the poor,
Gordie boy, Gordie boy?
You've got lots to answer for,
Premier Gordie.
Don't forget that we're your boss
Though you couldn't give a toss.
There's no province without us,
Premier Gordie.
BC Province up for sale,
Gordie Boy, Gordie Boy?
Hydro, Gas and BC Rail
Premier Gordie.
While for the poor and homeless folks
Working people and their hopes
Just strings of promises and lies.
From Premier Gordie.
BC Ferries on the rocks,
Gordie Boy, Gordie Boy.
Check the value of your stocks,
Premier Gordie.
Clearcut valleys, washed out streams,
Backroom deals fill all his dreams,
So the check is in the mail
For Premier Gordie.
Virk and Basi going to trial,
Gordie Boy, Gordie Boy?
Will they tell who pulled the strings,
Premier Gordie.
If they say that you're the Man
Showed them how to scheme and plan
You may find you're in the can.
Poor Premier Gordie.
Rally: on the Legislature steps 2:00 PM, 22 Nov. 2006.
pure
5 years ago
THE BRAIN AND PCBs;
1974 --- A General Electric in-house memo reveals that both GE and Westinghouse were secretly aware of the possibility of transformer explosions ten years before the EPA issued warnings about it. "As you know," GE engineer T. L. Mayes cautioned his colleagues, "Westinghouse had a network transformer explosion recently, resulting in two fatalities." Mayes also mentioned that some grades of PCBs apparently create an explosive gas when transformers malfunction - a danger the company concealed from its customers. Neither were customers informed that when burned (as in an explosion), PCBs create dioxins and dibenzofurans - although the manufacturers knew this by 1970 at the latest. In fact, PCBs were aggressively marketed as safety products; the manufacturers even convinced insurance companies to require their customers to use PCB transformers. Monsanto, Westinghouse, and GE publicly denied explosion problems. [11]
2000 --- The United Nations Environment Program committee concluded a 3-years process of international treaty negotiations between 120 nations a global, legally-binding ban on 12 persistent organic pollutants (called POPs), including PCBs, Dioxins and Furans. The POPs Treaty will be signed in Stockholm on 22-23 May 2001. Ratification by at least 50 countries will be required before the treaty enters into force, a process likely to take 3-4 years. [43,44]
pure
5 years ago
THE BRAIN AND PCBs;
1980s --- Monsanto begins funding phony "public interest" groups, such as the American Council on Science and Health, run by Elizabeth Whelan, to defend Monsanto’s products, inlcuding PCBs, the cancer-causing herbicide 2,4,5-T, the artificial sweetener Nutrasweet, and the genetically engineered hormone rBGH, which is now being added to much of the world’s milk supply (by injection into dairy cows.) [24]
1997 --- Study links PCBs to cancer in electric utility workers. [37]
IAMC
5 years ago
GE is still in business. Westinghouse is not.
Actually I may have predicted wrong. I have heard the old Westinghouse is about to resurface. They are coming back, with light bulbs, followed by appliances. You gotta love it.
pure
5 years ago
PCBs do kill and it is all over the planet including the north and south pole.
Any comments?
pure
5 years ago
IAMC;
Westinghouse is called 'Wesco' for a long period of time.
IAMC
5 years ago
Pure; Wesco has nothing to do with Wesinghouse, exept with your perception.
pure
5 years ago
WOODY;
The word clean means 100% clean water to drink.
pure
5 years ago
IAMC;
Ask Wesco and they will advise you that it is related to Westinghouse, but the question is? what percentage?
pure
5 years ago
The 500 kv line from williston substation is really something. Has anyone taken a tour of this sub?
Skookum1
5 years ago
The Similkameen Dam, that is. Struck me when I saw the figure that that's a really high dam for such a small reservoir and output; the WAC Bennett Dam, one of BC's highest, is 625' from tailrace to crest. Hoover Dam is 726.4', Grand Coulee is 550'. All create HUGE reservoirs; the proposed Similkameen reservoir would be less than 10 miles long. Hoover generates 2080MW, Grand Coulee 6809MW, WAC Bennett 2730MW.
The Princeton project, requiring a similar scale of construction, would generate 22 megawatts only? Is a dam of those dimensions really cost-effective?
Another issue with a dam at that particular location is leachate from the coal and copper deposits and other mineralization in that area eventually contaminating the reservoir, and therefore also the Similkameen River. The water pressure beneath 500' of reservoir is enough to do a lot of snakey things to the local geochemistry....
maestro
5 years ago
Hey Skookum "UNE".....had your coffee yet???...does it have side effects with the other medication.
Leftie Ltd . ranters just don't seem to get it nor can they handle the pressure...aka "BOO" . Give em enough rope...
Now chant "Serenity now Serenity now" and watch the "Green" RED show.
Otherwise...We'll start again....
Rob_
5 years ago
Actually there are two wind projects scheduled to go ahead. And there are many other sites that have been suggested around BC with very little Nimby opposition. The problem is not with the lack of suitable sites in BC - it is with the way BC Hydro structures the contracts making it difficult for wind power producers.
Actually solar power can be predicted very accurately on an annual basis. And Vancouver actually has a better solar resource than most of Germany which has the largest installed base of solar PV in the world. Solar doesn't match peak demand well in BC but it does nicely compliment wind power and the ability of our dams to act as batteries.
And we are still overlooking our cheapest source of clean power – conservation and efficiency. We could easily reduce our power consumption in half with some very simple conservation methods.
jnewcomb
5 years ago
This is not BC's first coal-fired power plant as there were urban-based electrical power plants in BC, burning coal and wood, more than a hundred years ago. By 1883, downtown Victoria had a 25-horsepower coal-fired steam engine churning out power for electrical street lighting and by 1887, Vancouver Electrical Illuminating Company had built a similar plant at the corner of Pender and Abbott Streets.
G West
5 years ago
jnewcomb
Unfortunate the steam plants weren't mothballed. Our current government could re-animate them and start pumping electrons down the line to where the energy is actually needed. With some coal smoke and pollution being dumped into the atmosphere in Vancouver and the provincial capital, perhaps the bright bulbs who think shipping pollution to the Similkameen so they can heat their hot tubs in West Van isn't such a great idea after all.
Skookum1
5 years ago
Maestro: I'm flattered by the incoherence of your attack. Not quite apoplexy, but far more amusing than your pal History1's attempts at playing attack dog. And no, I haven't had my coffee yet.
jwstewart
5 years ago
RickW;
No, I don't beleive there is a connection between Conawapa and Nawapa, bearing in mind that excess fresh water from the US is curently being diverted into Manitoba, rather than the other way around.
Conawapa is an attempt by the NDP in Manitoba to (continue to) develop hydro resources as a government monopoly that is income generating for govt coffers.
maestro
5 years ago
Skookum:
Then have your coffee FIRST , .....your self - incriminating logic is its own moeBiuS.
PS Do you all take the same correspondence course??? ...there is an oft repeated TYEE rumour many of ya are actually ONE person using different monikers. Just ask Truman.
maestro
5 years ago
Rob:
Re Wind Power...Perhaps identify the short list of B.C. sites...it would be interesting . A Physician neighbour of mine invested in an Alberta wind farm venture, and claimed that during one month there was no wind.
Re Solar...similarly it may be useful if you have links. I've seen some residential sytems, albeit older ones installed in homes...but they take up a lot of space and aesthetically not very appealling. Also, if possible,... a comparison on BEST vs WORST case scenario..ie a cloudy day at December solstice(shortest day) and a sunny day at June solstice(longest day).
Strongly Agree with you on the final comment, the need for greater conservation and efficiency.
poltourist
5 years ago
Could the solution be tidal power. i'm sure that it has been suggested before but the north of the strait of georgia is reknowned for its strong tidal flows. just take two of find two islands that are close enough to allow construction of some sort of structure that channels the tidal flow for generation. alternatively i'd imagine that the strait itself could be used, as in tidal generators aligned like mussle beds. bc ain't that windy and ain't that sunny either, but the tide comes and goes everyday, guaranteed. the technology is in its infancy, but with investment in education and research, and a start-up subsidiary of bchydro, maybe it could work. who knows it could provide the opportunity to export know-how. and of course conservation and efficiency. try this in wikipedia: the German passivhaus standard which requires no heating system. from
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/10/31/heres-the-plan/#more-1027
RickW
5 years ago
maestro:
Retrofits? What would it look like if they took the place of present roofing systems?
G West
5 years ago
maestro:
I thought the Alberta windfarms were in the Fort Macleod area; the first commercial wind farm was built in southern Alberta near the town of Cowley, in a region famous for its strong, steady winds.
I expect your doctor friend sent his money to the provincial legislature in Edmonton by mistake.
Fish-counter
5 years ago
This is a joke, right?
The best place for a coal-fired power plant in BC is next to the coal mine; Tumbler Ridge, for example. Shipping electrons is cheaper than shipping coal.
The next best place would be where the electricity is going to be consumed, so the consumers breathe the fumes.
maestro
5 years ago
Comrade G'ster...
Not sure your point, as I simply stated "Alberta", he didn't state the specific locale.
However the point is predictable supply of the raw energy resource which in this case is " wind " . Unlike water (for hydro electric)...or coal...or other energy sources, wind is reliant on many external variables . If the wind farm energy producers can't provide both consistent and predictable suppply...they won't survive...correct ???
PS However, if you ever require surgery, ( and especially at those NON MSP Private Clinics you most obviously prefer ) I'll generously show him a copy of your e-mail re: sending $$$ to the Alberta legislature as he finishes scrubbing up and is ready to begin.
haraldkann
5 years ago
There you go again MAESTRO,conducting a symphony of Right Winged Bombastic Bullsh!t...
God ,I thought you might tire yourself out with all that spastic struggle to communicate.
Then again,you are the MAESTRO...
Play on in that little sphere of your own delight.You know you kinda sound like that maestro poseur that was on those Seinfeld episodes,you ain't hanging around Elaine are you?
I can see why your so SPASTIC,if you are.
She can't dance ...and you can't conduct,typical right winger couple.
LIKE TOTALLY SPAZZED DUDE !!!
Any one with a BRAIN knows you don't need COAL...you need ALTERNATIVES,THE MORE THE MERRIER AND CLEANER AND BY GOLLY LOOK WE CAN BUILD INDUSTRIES RIGHT HERE TO SUPPLY THAT TECHNOLOGY.
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maestro
5 years ago
RickW:
If not mistaken, residential solar systems are mostly used for heating...not electrical power.
Most solar systems would likely be positioned on the South Facing roof.
Re replacing present roofing systems...I would doubt they would be able to....Most solar systems are attached to an existing roof. If the solar system is also acting as THE one and only roof system..., it had better be as good as any conventional roof as JOB 1...and I am not sure such a dual solar energy/roof system exists or is practical.
Saw a Knowledge Network special a while back on Wind Power...parties on some Gulf Islands had special generators attached to their windmills and produced power that was stored in batteries, which they used for lights and other residential uses. Start up costs are several thousand dollars.
The fact that the general consumer public by and large do not invest in these options inevitably keeps the costs high and thus the options serve only niche- interested parties, till they often go back to the same- old same -old options.
G West
5 years ago
Simple point was, Maestro, the wind farms in AB are located where the idea of 30 days w/out is not a likely limiting factor.
The hot air in Edmonton does stop once in a while - like Campbell's clones, Ralph's rangers don't work anywhere nearly 12 months of the year.
You're still not ready for prime time dude!
maestro
5 years ago
Now now HaraldKann't...
Us " Leftie's" say its nice to share....
....so please let the rest of us know which part of the "Home" from which you are e-mailing us from has " Happy Hour" scheduled from 6 AM. till closing.
PS Do they accept tips at your "home", you cheap commie $#* ! Also, FYI your keyboard is stuck in the HIGHER CASE LETTER mode.
haraldkann
5 years ago
Maestro!Dude!U gonna let the G'ster talk at ya like that ???
C'mon big boy,flail' those arms and make some MUZAK.
Was a great piece on the late news a couple nights ago about Californians,the ordinary type that bought solar panels and wind generators to offset their UTILITY BILLS(not the GREEN GONZOS).
THEY WUZ TALKIN REAL CHEEP MONTHLY BILLING AND EVEN SELLING BACK THEIR SOLAR/WIND ELECTRICITY TO THE GRID...
Can you say ,WOW !
maestro
5 years ago
G ster...
Oh ... I get it...equate politicians AND hot air.
LOL..LOL..LOL..LOL...ROTFLMAO...more ROTFLMAO...LOL ...LOL ...SOL
Man, YOU are ready from prime time.
woody
5 years ago
Hardylkann where you been man, I missed you,------------------------------about as much as my last dose of the sh!ts
woody
5 years ago
Sh!t, HARDLY-KANN I got see excited when I saw your post I misspelled your name.
maestro
5 years ago
HaraldKanned:
See...you ain't such a bad ___(???)
Now, if some Californians are actually able to do as you say...great, I'll be in the same line-up to buy these "Go-Green" items, assuming all other things being equal.
However, you said "normal" Californians...an oxymoron which leaves one suspicious.
Hence, what part of California did you come from Harald...and do you still have an autographed copy of " Helter Skelter", by C.Manson ???
PS when is " Happy Hour " so we can visit you ?
haraldkann
5 years ago
Look every one,don't the MAESTRO unt STIFFY make a nice COUPLE.
Seems they use the same LIMITED VOCABULARY.
From the same limited grey cells...
ROK ON DUDES ! DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I know you two just got a barnload of cheap thrills so I am gonna hit the coffee room see how the crew is doing.
Later...DUDES!!!!!!!!!!!
maestro
5 years ago
Due to the lack of any evidence to the contrary, I think HaraldKann is undoubtedly G (call me "prime time") Wests' mentor...much like Master - GrassHopper relationship in classic 1970's TV show "Kung Fu".
"If you can snatch this Leftie poo-bull from my hand..."
Skookum1
5 years ago
Yeah, I heard about what went down with Truman (his real name). But as for me playing footsie with different IDs, sorry, that's a no-go. Ever seen anyone else cop quips on the Chinook Jargon, or hold forth on early BC history? Don't think so. Nope, sorry to disappoint you; I'm only me, and just me. With or without coffee.
Is that the best you can do? i.e. make an allegation? I would have thought you, in your superiority over the rest of us, would have had some comment on my last REAL post, which had to do with the Similkameen power proposal. But nope, like History1, you're more interested in name-calling, and alleging things about people you don't like.
What's your claim to dubbing yourself "maestro", anyway? You don't appear to be a master of anything.....
Bailey
5 years ago
A small suggestion re: wind.
BC has literally thousands of miles of transmission lines through farms and over mountains, everywhere the wind blows. The wind generators are relatively cheap and low maintenance.
Why not place a windmill on top of every suitable transmission tower? They're already ugly enough to make it impossible to offend their environment any further. There would be no additional transmission costs, being right there like that.
There are tens of thousands of towers to choose from, and the power, after the initial instalation, would be practically free.
The advantages are obvious, the objections are not. Why not give it a try?
Oh, right. I forgot. Hydro isn't allowed to generate any power any more. By law, that's only for contributors to the Liberal party now, isn't it?
Rob_
5 years ago
Knob Hill
Shushartie South
Shushartie North
God's Pocket
Wolverine
Pemberton Hills
Hushamu
Windy Ridge
(All above between Holberg and Port Harty)
Nimpkish East
Franklin Range
Tanall Reefs
(South of Port McNeill)
Dokie Wind Project – Chetwynd 80 MW
Bear Mountain - Dawson Creek 120 MW
(These two were awarded contracts in August)
One offshore near Haida Gwaii
.... and more that I don't have time to look up right now
maestro
5 years ago
Actually Skookum 1...
As I recall, this little "hissy fit" of yours began after I simply asked YOU (or any other TYEE reader ) about actually viewing the proceedings in the GVRD watersheds via tours.....after you posted a comment about the watersheds and clearcut logging et al.
I simply added to the discussion by stating that the GVRD held open houses and guided tours of the Capilano watershed. Prior to that, I had the same " less objectively informed " views that all sorts of bad things are going on in the watersheds to explain why my water supply often has high turbidity levels in the fall "rainy" months.
I used the words they (tours)are "enlightening", which implies I have actually been on one GVRD watershed tour, and thus not viewed via some edited TV show or Hard Copy propoganda.
Then YOU make some strange pole -vault leap of logic(???)that yokels like "moi" are willing to contaminate them(watersheds)??? Please explain the logic to this conclusion of yours ....
Then you run off to further claim "moi" is a willing tool of PR...HUH??? Where did you even begin to see a whiff of that ? You admit you never were on such a tour, but then seem to admit you make up your mind incognito ???
You write some good comments Skookum...but look in the mirror first. However, unfortunately, it seems a lot of TYEE commentators are here to spout some subjective propoganda of their own, and intolerant of others if they don't knee-jerk and goose-step to the same party line.
If that is your modus operandi, at least attach a warning label ie " I, ____, am an intolerant assh*le. If not, then remember for next time SVP.
That's why many of us are turned -off and often tune -out," same old same old" and nothing gets accomplished, let alone fixed.
BC Dude
5 years ago
The best place for the coal-fired plants is in Gordon Campbell's backyard up in the Point Gray Gated Communities
poltourist
5 years ago
the German passivhaus standard?? is anyone familiar with it?
BC Dude
5 years ago
maestro who's paying you for your B.S. in these bogs?
It doesn't matter who writes in these blogs you are one of the most condescending idiots I've ever had the displeasure to read.
It seems to me that you've had many handles on these blog's! The Tyee is one of the better open to the public informative blog's.
So instead of being so condescending maybe try and help make this province livable for all people!
Have a Great Day!
Rob_
5 years ago
Well, not everyone agrees with your view on aesthetics.
And you can now get building-integrated panels or panels that look like shingles. With these most people don't even recognize them as solar panels.
Here is a photo of a house in North Van where we recently installed panels: http://www.flickr.com/photos/30261607@N00/187057115/
These panels meet all his electrical needs and take up less than half his roof.
Actually either or both can be installed. Solar thermal (heating) is more common here because it costs less and had a quicker payback.
Well actually there are several buildings in the Vancouver area where they have done just that - used solar PV panels as either roofing or as exterior walls.
Skookum1
5 years ago
It's pretty clear now that Maestro is an "info-thug", whose job it is to disseminate rhetoric on the one hand, and insults on the other. Why bother with a tour of the watersheds when they're conducted by the same people who commissioned all those nice reports that said "hey, logging the watersheds will be good for water quality - LET'S DO IT!!". Forestry in Lillooet used to give tours, too - always making sure that they never showed you the devastation and failed silviculture/replanting efforts in places like Van Horlick and Hell Creeks and more. Asking the fox for a tour of his den? What's the point in that? They're only going to tell you what they want you to think, and only going to show you things that don't challenge their shoddy forest-management record.
But apparently Maestro found the watershed tours "englightening".
But here's the facts: there was no logging in the watersheds before the 1980s (late 1970s maybe?). And there have been huge rainfalls before (bigger ones than these last storms, though not as windy maybe) in the century since the watersheds were established, (1880s-1890s), and during that time there were no landslides of any scale into the reservoirs, and no difficulties with water quality.
But disinformationists will always say "oh, you can't prove that. Here, let us give you a tour". Sorry, the GVRD's forest-management hacks may be OK with entering a watershed; I was raised to respect other people's digestive tracts, not to find reasons to violate them.
And Maestro, calling me a leftie for using the term "clearcut"?? You just played your redneck card. What's your old Socred membership number anyway?
G West
5 years ago
Rob
Looks interesting - and not on the palatial residence of a master of the universe either - which is even more positive.
What's the estimated payback at today's hydro rates? Are there any reliability/mainenance issues?
If more people started ordering suddenly, what about availability?
Lots of other questions. I did the see program on California users too maestro and these were not green eco-freaks who'd installed the system in their very upper middle class house. Dinks I'd say off hand.
G West
5 years ago
That's 'double income no kids' maestro.
woody
5 years ago
BC Dude said,
BC Dude, no, its Harldkann who uses different handles, he definitely has his own style, every couple of months a new name, but same style.
maestro
5 years ago
Skookum 1
Time's up...
After reading your last post...You really are one of the most pathetic TYEE posters ...talk about disinfo...foaming rhetoric...and like most Leftie -ish...in denial and deflecting the debate. You rant and rant and rant... and YOU are not only putting words in MY mouth....it sounds like the whole worn out Leftie bible.
At least don't make the other TYEE Lefties look so bad...unless you are all holding hands in "group - think" mode and in sync re - barfing the old RED-to -ric.
Again , the topic was the GVRD watershed...not Hell's Creek...or Van Horlick. I'm not going to comment on Hell's Creek of Van Horlick...CAUSE I HAVEN'T BEEN THERE ..... OK ! You haven't been on the Capilano watershed tour...correct? End of that discussion due to your closed mind and biased view.
I've travelled throughout much of BC and seen much of the terrain. Where the hell do you get off interpreting what I mean by " enlightening " is beyond me. Again, types like YOU are THE waste of time...a pathetic parody powered by knee-jerkism and other jerks...like BC Dude...BC Dud ....errr BC Bud...(or did you call em up to help defend you and your bogus BS you obviously confuse with debate).
maestro
5 years ago
Rob:
Interesting photo and info:
My "aesthetically pleasing" comment is based on areas which may have design requirements in the form of bylaws, whether it be the Local Gov't or the Developer.
Re using the solar system as THE roof, I'd be curius to see , if possible, photos or links re: any of the solar shingles that make up the roof. Kudos to any engineer that can design a durable shingle that can ALSO act as solar panel. I am looking at all roofing cases ie cottage roof with 4 separate sides, cap shingles at the joints etc. Also, how do they(shingles) connect to form an integrated circuit as well?
Does this system work on flat rooves ie also seal out the elements...and is the solar systems angle towards the sun critical?
Also Solar heating sytems...the ones I saw, albeit older models, had panels attached to the roof which circulated water that was heated via solar and the heated water circulated to a basement holding tank.
QUESTION: How do the more modern solar systems operate in order to heat a house ?
Finally, some fiscal numbers as to start up/installation cost and payback point are always useful..and of course the dreaded "warranty".
PS And just to piss off the TYEE Lefties... see, if Rob is onto something here, and given the example cited in North Van , one could potentially hook -up to the grid...sell any/all excess power to BC Hydro like any warm -hearted capitalist...and very likely with the assistance of a good accountant write - off the new home based "mini -power producing" business venture's capital and operating costs. ...and you don't even have to be a neo-con friend of Gordo like S'kook-um 1 and BC Dud.
Sky (and Sun) are the limit !!!
G West on line one...
Thanks Rob...very useful and fascinating...keep in touch and send more info if possible.
G West
5 years ago
Dangerous pitfalls in that tax treatment mon ami. Most people don't like to potentially dilute the tax free status of their home ownership capital gains
maestro
5 years ago
G West:
That's(as usual) why I "qualifed" it with getting a good accountant's advice, given ones' particular individual circumstances.
One of our now ex -Councillors bitched about the City upping his HOME business license fees when he wore his other hat as a businessman .... and I know an Engineer whose whole bottom basement in his own 2 story home is laid out as a working office.
Many people run some sort of business venture out of their principal residence...obviously the benefit /cost ratio is to the LEFT ( lol ) side of the decimal point.
PS Maybe we can have "illegal" solar powered "electron-opps " ventures and sell or barter power to neighbours for ca$h...because , in theory, how do you quantify how much power you have actually produced...does anyone have a sunlight meter to measure input, let alone an individuals' electrical output ?
Then , collectively, we can put Gordos' multi -headed (not to mention the horns) "private power producer" cronies out of businesss ...correct???...or pick em up cheap at the bankruptcy proceedings.
"Lefties" can make good businessmen... and actually contribute to society...its not 100 % impossible.
See... Life is GOOD.
G West
5 years ago
I'm still hoping for a revisit from rob for some feedback too.
Chrs.
maestro
5 years ago
Gee G'ster
We actually laid down the whoopins and agreed on somethin'.
Time to buy a Lotto ticket...(winnings are non-taxable)
Likewise ....cheers
jose
5 years ago
Hi there:
So little knowledge is out there about the coal to liquid conversion which through its process removes the CO2 and 99% of the sulfur. The processor in the US currently doing a ton of work on the process is Rentech...rentechinc.com. The process is to convert coal into gasoline, diesel and jet fuel. For the three fuels to be used requires no modifications to current gas stations or vehicles. Why is this so good...the greening up of the conversion is done at the plant of manufacture. Current oil refineries should also be mandated to convert or make pollution free fuels at the refining stage. This will catch ALL engines using this fuel instantly reducing pollutants by about 60%. The man at Rentech to talk to is Mark Koenig. We must get more out of coal than to just burn it in furnaces. Canada has 300 billion barrels of coal and the US has 811 years of coal...makes a little sense to go to this ultra clean fuel...liquid coal that is.
Barry Davis, atms/cl,
604-433-2211.
G West
5 years ago
jose
Is this the South African technology? The stuff borrowed/updated from the Nazis synthetic fuels process?
G West
5 years ago
Yep, that's it:
Fischer-Tropsch process , method for the synthesis of hydrocarbons and other aliphatic compounds. Synthesis gas, a mixture of hydrogen and carbon monoxide, is reacted in the presence of an iron or cobalt catalyst; much heat is evolved, and such products as methane, synthetic gasoline and waxes, and alcohols are made, with water or carbon dioxide produced as a byproduct. An important source of the hydrogen-carbon monoxide gas mixture is the gasification of coal (see water gas ). The process is named after F. Fischer and H. Tropsch, the German coal researchers who discovered it in 1923.
G West
5 years ago
This is from the NYTimes Oct 26 2005, by
Matthew Wald
The same is true of synthetic diesel, another alternative fuel that would not require a new distribution system. A Denver company, Rentech Inc., says it will break ground next year on a factory that will make 33,000 barrels a day of diesel fuel from coal, using a technology called Fischer-Tropsch, known as F-T, developed in Germany in 1923. Royal Dutch/Shell Group, a partner in Iogen, is also investing heavily in a plant in Qatar that also uses F-T to turn natural gas into diesel fuel. Others are using a different substitute for diesel, leftover vegetable oil from restaurant deep-fryers.
G West
5 years ago
And here's some more, from July 5 of this year, New York Times - Matt Wald again:
Mining for Diesel Fuel; The Search for New Oil Sources Leads to Processed Coal
By MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: July 5, 2006
The coal in the ground in Illinois alone has more energy than all the oil in Saudi Arabia. The technology to turn that coal into fuel for cars, homes and factories is proven. And at current prices, that process could be at the vanguard of a big, new industry.
Such promise has attracted entrepreneurs and government officials, including the Secretary of Energy, who want domestic substitutes for foreign oil.
But there is a big catch. Producing fuels from coal generates far more carbon dioxide, which contributes to global warming, than producing vehicle fuel from oil or using ordinary natural gas. And the projects now moving forward have no incentive to capture carbon dioxide beyond the limited amount that they can sell for industrial use.
Here in East Dubuque, Rentech Inc., a research-and-development company based in Denver, recently bought a plant that has been turning natural gas into fertilizer for forty years. Rentech sees a clear opportunity to do something different because natural gas prices have risen so high. In an important test case for those in the industry, it will take a plunge and revive a technology that exploits America's cheap, abundant coal and converts it to expensive truck fuel.
''Otherwise, I don't see us having a future,'' John H. Diesch, the manager of the plant, said.
With today's worries about the price and long-term availability of oil, experts like Bill Reinert, national manager for advanced technologies at Toyota, say that turning coal into transportation fuel could offer a bright future. ''It's a huge deal,'' he said.
There are drawbacks; the technology requires a large capital investment, and a plant could be rendered useless by a collapse in oil prices. But interest was high even before the rise in oil prices; three years ago, the Energy Department ran a seminar on synthetic hydrocarbon liquids, and scores of researchers and oil company executives showed up. The agency that runs municipal buses in Washington, D.C., and other consumers expressed interest.
But the enthusiasm was not enough to overcome the fear of a drop in oil prices. Lately, however, the price of diesel fuel, which determines the value of this coal-based fuel, also called synfuel, has soared, as has the price of natural gas, which made plants like the one at East Dubuque ripe for change.
Most of the interest is in making diesel using a technology known as Fischer-Tropsch, for the German chemists who demonstrated it in the 1920's. Daily consumption of diesel and heating oil, which is nearly identical, runs more than $400 million. The gasoline market is more than twice as large, but if companies like Rentech sated the demand for diesel, the process could be adapted to make gasoline.
The technology was used during World War II in Germany and then during the 1980's by South Africa when the world shunned the apartheid regime there. Now Rentech is preparing to use an updated version.
Sasol, the company that has used the technology for decades in South Africa, is exploring potential uses around the world and is conducting a feasibility study with a Chinese partner of two big coal-to-liquids projects in western China. Last August, Syntroleum, based in Tulsa, agreed with Linc Energy, of Brisbane, Australia, to develop a coal-to-liquids plant in Queensland.
note the catch - in italics.
Rob_
5 years ago
There were lots of questions. Here are a couple of places to get answers: bcsea.org vanrenewable.org cansia.ca
Also, stop by 2150 Maple Street in Vancouver and see both types of solar systems in action on both flat and sloped roofs. Or check out the systems at BCIT.
Payback?
For photovoltaic (PV) systems – a long time at current hydro rates. But people buy lots of things – cars, stereos, furniture - without worrying about payback.
For solar hot water – less than 20 years for sure and less than 10 years for some
Reliability?
PV systems that are 50 years old are still producing power.
Maintenance?
For PV systems - none except maybe cleaning the panels once in a while.
Availability?
Generally there is a shortage due to high demand in Germany and California. But a big plant in China as well as the one in Burnaby came online at about the same time so there is a bit of a surplus right now. We never have had a problem getting panels for our needs here.
Want to see solar shingles?
Go to Google.com. Click on “images†Type in “solar shinglesâ€
Costs?
PV $15,000 and up
Solar Hot Water $5,500 and up
Warranty?
25 years for solar PV panels
less for other components
Skookum1
5 years ago
Found this presentation by John Calvert of SFU on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gG-Kkq6gZY
Skookum1
5 years ago
Make sure your explore the related vids at right of the main window.
kenmacleod
5 years ago
During the early 1980s I was living in Salmon Arm, BC and was a member of the Hat Creek Coalition, a group that was opposed to the then-proposed Hat Creek Coal-fired Thermal-Electric Project. My role, as a former employee of the Federal Department of Fisheries and International Pacific Salmon Fisheries Commission, was to research the effect of the proposal on the environment and fish stocks in the area. I still have this information.
The Princeton project is similar to the now defunct Hat Creek proposal and the recently-scrapped Sumas 2 Energy project.
The problem with the Princeton proposal in a nutshell is:
The West Coast cordillera is made up of primarily granite rock formation and coniferous acid soils. These rock and soil formations have literally no ability to neutralize the acid rain that will be produced by such a project. The acid will return to the ground in the Princeton area and areas further east (ie. Penticton, Osoyoos, etc) of the project that will be affected when the prevailing winds carry the acid formations to these areas. The acid builds up in the snowpack during the winter, then is flushed into neighboring lakes, streams and rivulets during the "spring thaw," causing "acid shock" which raises the pH to a significant acidic level, thereby killing small organisms in these streams and eventually larger life forms which feed on the smaller organisms.
The second problem is that there will be a significant amount of air pollution that will also be carried east by prevailing winds to affect the "Sunny Okanagan." Resort areas in the Penticton and Osoyoos area will likely receive a negative impact from the Princeton Thermal-Electric Plant.
The main question is: what is the projected amount of emissions from the Princeton Project? If the estimated amount of emissions is known, we can have an idea about the detrimental impact of the project. Also, will industry be attracted to this area to utilize some of this power, and will some of this industry have a detrimental impact on the environment?
This project needs to be thoroughly analyzed by a public hearing. We need to put this information before the people who will be affected by the project as soon as possible.
G West
5 years ago
Thanks, rob, ken Macleod, and Skookum1
G West
5 years ago
rob, one or two more quick question, please.
Does the $15,000 figure relate to a specific number of square meters of floor space? Would the hot water figure be in addition to the PV array or is hw included in the $15,000 figure?
Assuming of course all other things being equal - south facing roof, clear sight lines etc.
Are retrofits much more costly than new construction?
maestro
5 years ago
Rob:
AWESOME....Thanks VERY much....mucho gracias.
PS Maybe THE TYEE could do a feature, or even better, a SERIES of features on this type of solar technology and other viable options to the status- quo (......hint hint hint hint hint hint hint hint hint hint hint hint hint hint TO THE TYEE EDITOR and rest of the TYEE STAFF ).
maestro
5 years ago
kenmacleod;
Good comments...very detailed but also easy to understand.
I still see the " Stop Hat Creek " signs along the Highway when we travel to the Interior.
If the environmental impacts you mention occur, I was wondering if this, as a consequence , negates the arguments against SUMAS II. The concern up the Fraser Valley was emissions from the Natural Gas fired power plant based in the U.S, was it not ???
However, if the Canadian side starts exporting acid rain etc. from a power plant built in Canada to areas south of the border(as well as surrounding areas within Canada), what is OUR defence to stop SUMAS II or any similar U.S proposal in a tit -for -tat ???
Skookum1
5 years ago
Hat Creek Gathering, huh? Were you there in '83? That was the only time I made it up there, but I still have strong memories of it. Especially the food '-) but also the debates under the parachute-tipi.
The Stop Hat Creek movement is an example of a low-key, small-personpower organization - if organization is the word - that managed to derail what was at the time a seemingly unstoppable industrial agenda. Mind you, they couldn't stop Cache Creek from being turned into Vancouver's oubliette, and there were other forces opposing Hat Creek, not the least of which was the local grazing lobby.....
The scope of the industrial complex that was planned for that region is a bit daunting even today, and makes me wonder where it fits into Liberal/Howe Street plans. A while ago there was some discussion, I think it was here in the Tyee, that the hidden agenda with the destruction of the salmon fishery was that once the salmon were all gone, there would be no more obstacles to damming the Fraser. And so the Lillooet Canyon, Glen Fraser, Moran Canyon and Soda Creek Canyon damsites would all be auctionable, as also the Homathko-Tatloyoko project to the west.
But Moran and Hat Creek were only cogs in a bigger local infrastructure. Related plans called for a chemical plant in the Hat Creek area and a related strip mine, as well as an expansion of the existing quarry that's eating into the flank of Marble Canyon (which is a provincial park ONLY around the campground and lake, not including the big cliffs, which apparently are already staked out). The limestone quarried is currently used for cement, but as I recall much larger quantities of it were to be used to process the low-grade lignite that is the Hat Creek "coal" deposit. Both lignite and limestone mines, and of course the chemical plant, would destroy the mineralization factors in Pavilion Lake (which NASA currently uses for xenobiological research due to its "freshwater coral" microbialites).
Across the Fraser, at the conjunction of the Shulaps and Camelsfoot Ranges at the apex of the Yalakom River valley about 60 miles NW of Lillooet the Red Mountain copper deposits were to be finally exploitable, as power from Hat Creek (and potentially Moran) would be on-site, and ample enough to run the copper smelter proposal that Ma Murray fought against years ago; in her time the smelter was to be built in Lillooet itself, about where those big ginseng fields are across the Fraser from town.
Socred pitchmen for all this also waxed poetic, if Socreds were ever poetic, on all the other heavy industry the power supplies from Hat Creek and Moran etc would bring to the area. The idea seemed to be create a new Ruhr or Midlands in the region between Kamloops and Whistler.
Well, this was part of the "sell" for the Bridge River Power Project, too; Bruce Hutchison in his book The Fraser goes on about how the cheap power from that project would help Lillooet become a major player in the wine and orcharding industry, as irrigation costs would drop. Well, as with the Columbia Treaty downstream benefits, very little of Bridge River power is actually used in the Lillooet Country, as those Cold War-era plants were built largely to supply Boeing's operations in Puget Sound and other US military-industrial facilites across the line. In fact communities of the Lillooet people on the lower Lillooet River (no longer the Lillooet Tribal Council but separately organized as the In-SHUCK-ch) don't have access to the power that runs over the heads, and are forced to rely on fossil-fuel generation systems.....
The huge powerlines from Peace River, and later from Mica, which are strung across the Fraser, Bridge and Seton valleys are not so much carrying power to Greater Vancouver as to the US grid; and as I think I mentioned the attrition rate in those lines due to resistance means something like only 10% of power generated at Peace River is in the lines when the grid crosses the border.
Skookum1
5 years ago
Didn't someone else here say something about locating consumption closer to production? That would have meant putting power-consuming industries adjacent to generation sites in the Columbia and Peace; much the same idea as Kitimat-Kemano. Well, we don't actually DO anything with that aluminum once we've smelted it, and the bauxite isn't even ours, but you get the idea....
But Hat Creek? Yeah, I've been thinking about it since all this push for power media that's been on the tube, and in the course of this article's forum. I wouldn't put anything past the Liberals right now; especially if they know that their political lifespan is limited - they'll do everything they can for their US mentors before they're thrown from power....
Skookum1
5 years ago
Further: I'm not sure of the size of the coal deposits around Princeton, but I seem to recall that the lignite beds at Hat Creek were some of the largest in the province outside the Rockies (even though it's pretty low-grade anthracite and nowhere near the quality of the coals in the Croswnest or Tumbler Ridge areas). If Princeton's being auctioned off, what's to stop Hat Creek from the same fate?
Colin
5 years ago
There are a couple of these plants proposed for up North, both would replace diesel powered generators if I recall correctly. As the coal is right beside the plants, they offer a benefit against the diesel plants as they must burn fuel to transport the fuel to the generators. For Atlin their plants takes 2 B trains a week to keep them running. The Atlin FN however have the right conditions to build a run of the river project on Pine Creek and will be able to replace their generators with hydro power.
Replacing Hydro power with coal is questionable, but replacing diesel with coal may be better in some areas. Also I don’t know how efficient solar power would be in places like Dease Lake. Quite a few of the natural gas beds are located close to coal deposits, I wonder if the exhaust gases can be used to pump the natural gas out?
Both the federal and Provincial Government need to make easier to build more efficient housing, using passive solar techniques and helping people to retro-fit both active and passive systems for heat/water/electricity.
Rob_
5 years ago
Solar PV (photovoltaic) -> electrical production
Solar hot water -> water heating
These are two completely different systems. Some people seem to be confusing the two.
The $15,000 (or maybe $14,000) was for the smallest PV systems. More specifically the smallest grid-tie PV system (since we are talking about the grid here). If you want to get technical it has to do with getting enough voltage to make a grid-tie inverter efficient and take advantage of maximum power point tracking along the IV curve (or something like that).
I am not sure what floor space has to do with electrical consumption since there is no direct correlation.
The North Van install I mentioned earlier cost about $17,000 and should supply all his energy needs. But for most people in BC who are huge energy hogs they would need a system that cost $60,000-$100,000 to meet their energy needs.
But you can always intall a system that just meets part of your needs and send a message that you don't want dirty power plants.
If you are serious about doing this click on the links above and get an assessment done.
Rob_
5 years ago
and yes angle of the panels and especially shading effect energy production
G West
5 years ago
Thanks again rob, at this point I'm shopping for information. One more quick question - I guess I didn't make myself clear relative to the hw question because I realized they were separate systems. What I was concerned about related to the share of a normal hydro bill (not including heat) that goes to heating water - the idea being that a $15,000 pv system might actually generate revenue if none of its output was devoted to that portion of electrical consumption. Is this accurate? Say if 40% of one’s hydro represented the cost of heating water, would the smaller pv system – when combined with a solar array to heat water – mean a recapture of that 40% in terms of sales to the grid?
Again, much appreciated.
Rob_
5 years ago
A solar hot water system provides supplemental heating. Usually 40-60%, maybe 70%, if you time your usage right. But you still need your regular hot water heater for cloudy days or early morning showers.
And if your hot water heater is electric? Heating uses a lot of electricity. So, even if you are smart and use a thankless electric hot water heater, the $15,000 system is probably not going to be enough for supplemental heating.
Plus you still have your other electrical needs which the $15,000 system is probably not going to cover.
You could get a bigger system. If you had a really super efficient household, a $18,000 system might provide enough power for you and give you some excess to sell to BC Hydro.
But they would only pay you $.054. So yes, you would have some revenue but not enough to cover your capital costs.
If you lived in more enlightened places like Germany, California, Washington State or Ontario you would be paid more for your solar electricity and you would be able to cover your capital costs and actually make money.
But here in BC you install PV systems to save a little money and make a big statement.
G West
5 years ago
Thanks again Rob. It all helps and it'll form part of the case we're trying to make against the current government's absolutely criminal plans for BC Hydro and hydro generation in this province.
The investors who make money out of Gordon Campbell's latest crooked scam won't be homeowners - that's clear..Maestro can stop salivating.
Rob_
5 years ago
yes if you are a citizen of BC generating clean power from your roof top BC Hydro pays you $.054 for that power.
But if you are a multi-national corporation that is going take the profits out of the province, and build roads and pipelines through wilderness or coal-fire power plants then BC Hydro pays you almost double for that power.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Thanks Rob_
Just more grist for the mill. Some of us are actually doing our best to do something about this.
If you want to be involved, drop me a line at
Make sure you put the underscore in, a dash won't cut it.