One wonders about the decline of children for the schools. Victoria and surrounding area seems to have no shortage of the under six set. I was killing time in a coffee shop yesterday and started counting baby strollers,young mothers and some soon to be mothers. Maybe the government knows something we don't know. They don't want to pay more teachers , or keep the schools up to date. So if they can convince us all to ship kids to private schools or educate on line, heck look at all the money they can save. My wife and I have gotten into the habit of speaking to the parents of those small children then admiring the young citizen. Our ending line is always. "How come we are closing schools before your child gets old enough to get into one. You have elected officials, go ask them about the new population spurt, we all can see."

DPL wonders about the "decline of children". Women are delaying marriage, then delaying starting a family while they develop their careers, then if they do have children, limit to one or two. Then there's the "A" word that nobody wants to talk about--Canadian women abort 105,000 babies per year, mostly because they are socially or economically inconvenient. Frankly, our society deserves all the problems that will ensue from the devaluation of motherhood, and the resulting population loss.

well Grumpy, you certainly seem able to pontificate about the 'pac-man' edutainment system, using the very tools that such a system would be using.

The bricks and mortar stupidity factories are a throw-back to an earlier era. Pursuit of knowledge is a life-long activity, like love or enlightenment. When the mind is ready, or the desire to know or do something is great enough, the solution or seeking of the answer will come.

It only takes 100 hours to teach someone to read, not the 5-6 years (or not at all) that some schools seem to take. This is due to the cramming of age 'cohorts' together, where some are ready and have the desire to know, others do not - get labelled "something", pumped full of drugs, and shoved in a corner - all because these 'lost' students are a difficulty for the teacher.

Socrates was a teacher, he taught for free, because it was his passion.

The other 'teachers' have more in common with the other oldest profession because they 'do it' for money, than they do with Socrates.

The 'virtual school' will be no better than the digital equivalent of the oldest profession, found all over the net.

What's next on the Campbell agenda performing surgery in the comfort of your own home reading the instructions on the internet? He'll do anything to lower taxes.
I cannot see how learning online will be beneficial mentally or physically for the average student. Certainly the highly motivated will excel, but for the vast majority online learning will be a giant disaster. Hopefully parents will elect a Premier who has their children's best interest in mind.

Damn women eh dolphin! If they'd only just quit their jobs, shaddup, and git back to birthin' babies...

Murdock, quit using people's professionalism against them. Do you really expect someone to pay $50,000 to get the credentials needed to be a teacher and then do it for free because they have a passion for it? Be real. Maybe if tutition for teachers was free...

the major problems with on-line learning is that people do not learn as well in a non-social atmosphere. They need the instant and constant exchange of ideas with ohters to reinforce what they've learned. Alos, you assume that the students' parent is able to help them learn. that is not necessarily the case. And Canada still has a high illiteracy rate (about 30%) so that means that 30% of kids don't have someone at home to teach them how to read in the first place.

On-line learning is an aid not the way to go. I took a University level on line course last year and spent the most of my time looking for the info in the websites I was directed to use. Each site is different and changes to URL's are fairly frequently. The instructors couldn't keep up. so my learning was hampered simply because I couldn't navigate the sites as I needed to. And I can read and am fairly computer literate.

There's nothing inherently wrong with studying online. It doesn't sound to me as though online learning is meant to replace the classroom, although I suppose some students (or parents) might approach it that way.

While a school setting is important for certain kinds of development, it isn't necessarily the perfect way to learn for all kids. I for one, found the pace of classroom learning a bit slow, so I would have benefited from additional online courses I could do at my own pace. As long as virtual classrooms are an enhancement and not a replacement, I think it's a good idea. If a kid has the discipline and the drive to do it, why deny them the technology?

In fact, in an ideal world, the fact that a few students are taking Physics 12 online SHOULD mean that those left in the classroom would receive better instruction as the class size is smaller. Too bad it doesn't actually work that way in BC. If the class is too small it gets cancelled.

Sounds like you've been drinking too much of your handle Moosesbeer. Thousands of kids are successfully home-schooled in BC. Because you can't see a benefit doesn't mean one doesn't exist. And, lastly, what's wrong with lower taxes?

DenisB responded;

so I shall do the same:

Yes I am 'being real' the only reason the
$50,000 to get the credentials needed to be a teacher is even needed is because the SYSTEM SAYS SO.

the 'social' element of online learning is just as easy to re-create using 'virtual reality' elements in the learning, with voice and video elements. Not as good as 'in person' to be true, but then that is why it is called 'virtual' and not just plain ole reality.

makes no difference, the 100 hours can come at any place in a lifetime, whether 6 or 66.

Sounds like your system was poorly designed and going thru transition. Some thing like what many students on a new or renovating University campus face, with classes moving around without notice or power suddenly out in the labs etc...

This sort of system can work, sadly tons of $$$ will be wasted on it, rather than the basics being better managed for a majority.

We just started our eldest son on homeschool today. He arrived reading so there are 100 hours in hand.

The entire notion of "socialization" and getting on with others has to be balanced against the joys of hiphop culture and the prevalence of bullying in public and private schools. Not to mention the delights of age compression and a consumer mentality which brands kids at six.

The use of online resources is a huge plus for homeschooling families and the Ministry deserves credit. At the same time, the Ministry faces a lot of hard core competition. The BBC offers online units which are brillant: http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/websites/4_11/

Critically, actually educating children is moving past the industrial era, bricks and mortar, one size fits all, world into a deeply interconnected world. The web is part of that. After all, when it comes to socialization, parents will tell you that by the time their kids are seven or eight they are playing on MSN and are wired up to kids all over the world.

The beauty of the Ministry program is that for those of us for whom Physics 12 was a challenge and whose only memory of it is that F=ma and you can't push on a rope, we'll have the resources to teach our own children.

Does this new delivery system finally prevent school districts from playing the funding game of waiting until just after Sept 30, when they've been able to collect the per-student funding on top of the special ed funding, then forcing the special needs kids out of the brick and mortar schools and downloading their responsibility onto unsuspecting parents, citing the kids are too difficult to handle, but never acknowledging competency on staff's part, but able to keep all the $$$?"

If not, why not?

Nothing wrong with lower taxes no-left-nut. SO long as corporations and the wealthy start paying taxes on every dollar they earn and give up the dodges, holidays and corporate welfare that are crippling the system today.

Murdock, you've obviously been out of school a long time. My child gets grouped by his teachers with other intermediate students at the same reading level, etc for math and Language Arts, so nobody's keeping anybody else back. There are all sorts of innovations going on to address the tremendous challenges, not least of which is the education and social integration of very high ratios of ESL students--the inevitable price of a society currently being transformed (and kept alive) by immigration.

Online learning can expand the options and will work well in some situations for some students. But it can also easily be abused. If you've ever taken a correspondence course you'll know that more self-discpline is required for self-directed study than most of us have to offer. Also, having taught myself high school physics (not by choice, our small school just didn't have a teacher and I needed it), I never felt I'd fully appreciated what lay behind the memorized concepts and formulae, as I had in other courses where one could discuss and question and really explore the ideas with a teacher and classmates.

Online learning is like computers themselves--great tools, unless you're foolish enough to expect one to babysit your toddler for an afternoon.

Trouble with Mr. Dosdall and Mr. Campbell is we all know where they're coming from. The ideology behind all their grand plans comes down to a single, simple objective--cutting government, and thereby reducing taxes.

So we can be pretty certain that what could be a very useful addition to the education toolbox will be abused and mishandled to inflict damage on the very system it's meant to support.

As the old saying goes: "Young children and fools should not play with sharp-edged tools."

I am a student who can confirm that the coming generation are very definately socially challenged as their use of computers, Ipods, cell phones and other electronic gadgets has left them lacking in social skills. I have seen many classes interupted by young people who refuse to turn off their cell phones because, "I need to talk to my girlfriend". I paid to hear the teacher or prof, not the obnoxious ring of a spoiled or inconsiderate kid. When confronted they refuse to acknowledge their responsibility to other people in the room. We are also seeing the loss of the ability to communicate through writen word without the use of internet slang such as lol. As human beings we need to be socially conditioned and the trend towards impersonal communication has stinted their ability to interact with others, (perhaps this is how the neocons of this world have been created, monsters are never born they are always created!). This computer schooling kills that aspect of socialization.
Also, schools also act as a forn of daycare for parents who both work. Who will pay for this new expense, especially with the huge increase in working poor the neoliberal/neocons of this world have created. I suppose that we will now hear capitalist say it's not the governments place to provide daycare along with education. This is the exact type of shortsightedness that is getting us in trouble today.

My youngest daughter is currently in grade 9, and enrolled in an online program instead of attending a mortar-and-bricks school. This is her second year, and she's been looking forward to it.

My oldest daughter also did a combination of school at a school, and schooling from home. She just got her B.A. in English at the top of her class, and is on to another University taking her masters.

My other two children never could have done without going to school in a classroom environment.

Anyone who says that the online option doesn't work, hasn't work with kids. It's an option for some, but not for others.

Distributed learning/distance learning, whjat-ever you call it has a place - and a very important one (or two, or three).

First, it helps to provide a broader selection of courses to those children in isolate and rural areas of BC. Distributed learning may even allow some small rural schools to stay open. Too bad the majority of students are no longer coming from these areas....

Secondly, this delivery method of content provides choice to those children who are not having a positive experience in a 'brick and mortar' school. Witness the comment earlier on bullying. Add in to that those children with specific needs or behaviours who can not cope in the traditional model of learning - now they can experience success.

Thirdly, this new additional model of content delivery will help keep some children and families in the public school sphere. Fairness for all.

A fear though would be when it is used to replace face-to-face 'brick and mortar' groupings of children simply to save money.

AliCiabatta - The rich pay the highest share of taxes already. And, when corporations are required to pay more taxes, where do you think the money comes from? The system's not crippled by lack of tax revenue but by too many stupid expenditures.......federal expenditures are now $70 billion per year higher than in 98/99 and who can say that all that extra taxation has improved their life?

Jay, have you considered what happens to your kids after Grade 12, when you've protected them from the evils of bullying, consumerism and hip-hop culture while instilling in them your sense of superiority, and they now have to rejoin their peers in the real world to find mates, work and social lives (that is, if they haven't totally rebelled against your obvious need for control and are already parading around with full gangsta rap gear & attitude).

When you offer that "actually educating children is moving past the industrial era, bricks and mortar, one size fits all, world into a deeply interconnected world", you sound like you'd never think of questioning whether this is an entirely good thing. In a school, your kids would get to debate that, hear all sorts of competing views, practise refining their thinking and arguments and expand their horizons beyond that of their parents.

Likewise, you sound absolutely convinced about having "the resources to teach (your) own children. it's your choice to make and ours to respect, but I wonder...

(My kid's a classic target for bullies by the way, but such awareness has prompted extra vigilance and effort, creating an extraordinarily positive school atmosphere for all the kids. Collectively, our parents & teachers can take pride in knowing that not only are our children safe, but that we're making their future world a little bit safer as well instead of turning our backs and labelling it someone else's problem.)

thank you no left nutter (sorry to hear about your loss)for proving my point that neocons like monsters are created and not born.

Realist - if trying to have a sane discussion about tax revenues and expenditures causes you to see me as a monster then you have to lay off the crack pipe, my friend.....

The courses which are currently being cut are ones like Physics 12: low enrollment and very difficult courses.
I cannot see Physics or Chemistry or Calculus being effectively taught through distributed learning. Distance classes are also notoriously expensive and have high attrition rates.

No bias there, eh?

Chudnovsoky said that he would not be statisfied until there was one teacher per student. He later retracted the statement saying it was only "in an ideal world." He of course, would be the Education Minister should the NDP ever become electable, which fortunately, they won't.

But he and Jinny can dream together. It was rather interesting how quiet the was during the contract negoiations. The Liberal government managed to do what the NPD never did: sign a deal with the teachers.

And I might add, unions and their NDP lap-puppies are known for supporting the status quo in all cases.

NLN
That's not the point. They should be paying a hell of a lot more. Tax every dollar, no matter how earned, and we could probably move pretty close to a flat tax with an earned income tax credit for the poor.
The idea that dividend tax credits, flow through shares and 50% capital gains write offs is far from equitable. And I haven't even started. How about Business investment losses - your good friends in government have provided for a way to share capital losses from shares of
"small business corporations." Like capital losses, only 50% of the actual loss is deductible. (The deductible portion is referred to as an "Allowable Business Investment Loss," or the
acronym “ABIL”.) However, unlike business losses, this portion of the loss is
deductible against all types of income, not just capital gains. And you don't even have to own or run the business. You can 'invest' in a basket of small business corporations that do nothing but generate losses and then write off 50% of your investment for 3 years back and even further forward against any other types of income.

Again, a dodge for the rich and the powerful but useless for the average wage earner.

Cry me a river. It's time you started pulling your weight too.

name, I've no doubt that there will be a transition for my kids. (Though it is not as if they are being issolated from the society at large or kids in particular - sports, art classes, friends down the street are all part of their lives.) But they will have the advantage of being able to read really well, will have written something everyday, have read books rather than textbooks, had a field trip a week and will have been encouraged to think for themselves without having to "study for the test".

It is not about control so much as it is about recognizing that the industrial school is pretty much over. For all the chat about socialization and even simple manners (it is simply rude to have a cellphone on in class and in a well ordered school it would happen exactly once. The next one which rang would be confiscated and returned at the end of the year.) the fact is that schools have become more adept at their custodial than their educational function.

This is a tragedy but also an opportunity to build something better.

The big problem with online learning of science courses is the total lack of hands-on practical lab experience. Chemistry, Physics, Geology and Biology are not paper and pencil exercises. Would you hire a chemist who has only seen pictures of test tubes, or a geologist who has never climbed a mountain?

Andesite is right on...

Imagine, Working Man, you are at a worksite, and the first-aider who is there has done his first aid training through online education. Let's say this first-aider even took some online human biology course at the university as well.

Now, would you have confidence that this first-aider could work at a remote jobsite? Operate the oxygen tanks? Strap a person properly onto a spine board? Effectively seal a chest wound?

It is not as easy in an environment that is less controlled.

Some classroom experience with a teacher is needed.

This does not mean that I do not agree with Jay Currie. Homwschool is an excellent option if one is able to provide the resources and experiences for their children. However, I really do not think homeschool should be confused with online education.

Owell, virtual schools can offer courses on reading body language, public speaking, and conflict resolution I suppose. Virtual teachers will have little classroom management issues to worry about, and marking could be done by programs that pick out word patterns.

Then we can have the best SimEarth players on the "the best place on earth".

If this is about choice, there is another angle to consider.

Quality of programming aside, the issue I have with distributed learning is that it has the potential to lessen the choices of students in mostly rural areas who choose to attend "brick and mortar" schools.

There are students in many small, rural schools who are "pushed" towards distributed learning for courses which do not traditionally appeal to a wide range of students, such as English Literature and Western Civilization. When those with the ability to succeed electronically have been siphoned away, there are not enough students left to form classes locally, further disadvantaging students without the skills (or money for a computer, or parents who support their independent learning) necessary for distributed learning.

One person's choice is another person's disenfranchisement.

Man ,.....how Rip Van Winkle-esque.

Recall my own years in the BC Public school system. Other than my parents warning me of the biggest kept secret..ie " teachers are a bunch of NDPers....".

I do, however look back fondly at what was a good school sytem...The Private schools tended to be an option for the well off or kids who were trouble in the public system. I found a lot of good focus, structure and discipline in the Public system.

When one has one's own kids...and looks back... I see that Public Schools now tend to be more uber social engineering factories...BCTF/NDP style... and less focus on the 3 R's to the point if we could do it over again we'd enroll ours in a Private school or home school.

Jinny Sims is BC's biggest con artist...I cringe as her nose grows through the TV set with her and her unions' "Its all about the students". She looks and acts like Hedy Fry's twin.

We lost 2 weeks of school last year...never made up...and instead the saving were re-imbursed back into the same bogus public system.Crock !!! Every parent should have been cut a pro-rata re-imburesment check. Or else cut back the school year two weeks ... it looks multi- featherbedded otherwise.

If this on-line intitiative does nothing else but keep a radical BCTF union in check I am all for it. Some courses are not available at every school and this may bridge the busing to access them issue.

Touche to some comments ...ie the system makes it cost 50 G to be a teacher...I find the teachers are often off on personal philisophical tangents and their is a lack of integration with each other as they pass the kids on.

Too many are getting a Master degree...probably using the class as their lab rats...mostly to buff up their final pension via their contracts perks for getting a Masters.

Too many kids misdiagnosed with the old A.D.D.....or this ...or that..passed along to learning assistants....never failed...no accountability.

People need toi break this edu- monopoly...this on line learning looks like a viable option..hopefully more options forthcoming .

meastro

How about a little evidence for this:

Lewis Perelman, author of "School's Out", discusses the technological obsolesence of school:

"... even those who work within the system are beginning to see the light: that it has no future. School, university, academia, is a technology. It is an invention largely of the 19th century. It is obsolete; it's time has passed. It is falling apart."

Basically, several current and former public school teachers and other school officials will tell you why public schools are harming children and why the government should not operate schools.

Classroom Social Myths:
Myth 1: Classroom Socialization is good
Myth 2: Classroom Socialization is natural
Myth 3: Classroom Socialization is normal
Myth 4: Classroom Socialization prepares children for the real world
Myth 5: Classroom Socialization will help my child get along with others
Myth 6: Classroom Socialization doesn't really affect my child because I'm still in charge.
Myth 7: Classroom Socialization will help develop my child's self-image.
Myth 8: Classroom Socialization is the same as when I went to school
Myth 9: Classroom Socialization is carefully designed
Myth 10: Classroom Socialization is controlled by professionals so I can hand my child over to them

Nothing wrong with "saying no to drugs", right? WRONG! This talk, given at SepCon 97, saved us from making a horrible mistake. Listen to find out what exactly is wrong with the DARE program, from one of the people who helped to create it.

source:
http://www.homeschoolmedia.com/audio/index.phtml

for G West,

is nothing new...

the argument goes both ways, just proving that the entire classroom social experiment is wrong.

for more detail see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_curriculum

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_institution

Finally, (this should steam things up fast) the BCTF is going to pooh-pooh this initiative since it would threaten its (the BCTF's) monopoly of the BC education system, the only way out is to go it alone.

for inspiration read:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm

murdock
You know what I think on this subject. I expected you'd be weighing in and I wasn't disappointed. You're going to have to post something more definitive than two bare as bones wikipedia articles that haven't even got complete citations.

I'd suggest you read Richard Hofstadter's Anti-Intellectualism in American Life.
Cheers though, I admire your enthusiasm as much as I distrust your motives and disagree with your direction.

You see, unlike the neocons who post here I’m not interested in slapping anyone down. Those kinds of responses tell a lot more about the poster than they do about their target.
Something like American air support in Afghanistan.

The online world will never replace the tangible aspects of classroom learning that are so necessary for a well-rounded education.

However, for those who would learn physics on the computer-go for it!! It's an added tool that can help many achieve their education goals.

Population aging. More and more people moving from smaller towns to bigger cities. Only makes sense that the K-12 population is in decline.

Just for interests sake, i'll mention this-although i'm talking post-secondary, in all four of my college classes today their were much more than sufficient numbers of students to justify a class and a teacher. And in my algebra class there was not one single empty seat in the entire room, in fact we had to another to retrieve more chairs. Yes, yes, this is not public school, but i'd estimate that about 95 % of the students i saw today are just out of grade twelve.

sadly G West,

no I do not KNOW, nor do many others starting out here.

as for neocon, I am not, and of that I am certain as I have you calling me that and others whom take the conservative approach clearly calling me a liberal or even a socialist.

The point is to present an argument, but then again, I have not seen your do that ever.

Only more exercises in Ad Hominem, the usual.

maestro, I'm interested:

how many children thru the system and how long ago?

just asking as I have three and the first has done some 'pre-school', had a blast and made some friends, but the channeling going into K was nuts and we decided to home-school, looking at unschooling as an option now. I am curious about how long ago your experiences were and possibly more details about the events?

cheers

You misaprehend me - I don't think you're a neocon at all. I've presented, if you'll recall, many arguments - many of them in opposition to your 'Libertarian' point of view, if you can recall. And certainly nothing ad hominem, as I said above, "I admire your enthusiasm as much as I distrust your motives and disagree with your direction."

I distrust your motives because I see them as too personal and not much concerned with either the general good nor the specific needs of a student population for which you seem to care little once your own needs are met and I disagree with your 'direction' because your views about schooling, taxes, government, the civil service and the 'nature' of the country are inimical to everything I value and believe in. So, no, I don't think that's ad hominem at all. I think it's frank criticism and plain talking. Period.

As for the others, I wonder if they appreciate your pedagogical approach as much as you seem ready to present it and its dubious merits. But then, they can speak for themselves.

Step easy,

I agree that the online world will never replace the 'real' world, but what are the tangible aspects of classroom learning that are so necessary for a well-rounded education?

Much of 'classroom learning' in the K-10 system is material that can be learned in about 2 years. Yet it is spread over 11 years because ... ?

name these tangible aspects of classroom learning please?

so maybe G West, you can skip calling out any neocon, or other titles in the postings and stick to the argument?

fine you have the opinion that the general motivation of 'self-interest' is wrong, however it is the motive that makes the world go round. The motive that is real, for each and every individual.

I think it is wrong-headed for an 'education' system to ignore the individual and treat everyone as some sort of clone.

Regarding the 'country' interests (taxes, government, the civil service and the 'nature' of the country) that you postulate, I really dislike the special platform that 'teachers' in the BC system have to pontificate about what is a good or bad citizen. The nature of which is changing all the time, yet the BCTF 'approved' version is stuck in a time-warp about 50 years ago.

Something like a 'distributed learning' system mentioned here would be a disaster even larger than the mess in the classroom now regarding such items as taxes, government, the civil service and the 'nature' of the country; since now these would be vetted and sanitized on a moment-by moment basis as decided by some think tank advising the government in power!

Talk about an Orwellian vision coming true!

From this observer the entire concept is whacked, about as demented as the current brick and mortar stupidity factories.

finally for G West:

And you have posted what about this subject here ... ?

any supporting arguments ... ?

name wrote:

why is this a problem?

For those having trouble with the school system and the BCTF, it sure seems to do well compared to other countries doesn't it?

I didn't see a lot of kids yesterday on the news being sent to West Africa or Asia to go to school to escape the BCTF.

Online education can be good for some things like learning how to program a website and its able to provide a list of books to read as well as a university prof but generally I'd be afraid to experiment with my kid's life just because I wanted to fight the teacher-man and his union.

So do I.

And so does the BCTF and the British Columbia curriculum, check them out.

Murdock, are you suggesting that these issues haven't been hashed out on these pages before - and ad nauseum? Last time I posted all kinds of information about the failures of charter schools in the US and especially in California - among other things. I have no problem with home schooling. To suggest that it is a viable alternative for most families with more than one child and two parents working outside the home is nonsense. Most young families are struggling desperately just to keep up.

Why belabour the issue? I respect many of your views - which I'm not afraid to write - especially about history and hegemonic power. The fact that I don't agree with your efforts to deconstruct both democracy and the school system doesn't mean I'm afraid to acknowledge what common ground there is between us. From your posts yesterday it seems that you’re much more interested in throwing brickbats than I am, so be it.

Equally, it doesn't mean I'm afraid to leave an issue alone when it's been more than adequately covered in these pages. Over time, I see the same posters, and the same ideas being rehashed here dozens of times.

It's actually quite boring.

People need to come in out of the cold and get more involved with their children's education. That's been the case for a very long time.

FYI

G West and Murdock

We have 3 children still in the public education system.

Without getting into a Gordo slag...I used to cringe at the start of the school year.

Why???

When the NDP were in Gov't the teachers contract had class size limits. The school's classes were "tentatively" set up prior to school starting, based on the info at the time.

However. any extra kids that show up later at the start of the new school year created a huge domino effect...if the class sizes went over the old limit ...then the old "pencilled in" classes were torn up and many times they had to go try and hire other teachers...and the pickings this late were slim as School Districts would also scramble. The teachers hired were not usually motivated...usually one year contracts. It would take 2 -3 weeks before the classes were finalized...maybe bounce amongst 2-3 teachers. Uggglllyyy!

Gordo came in..upped the class size...peace then reigned, at least, finally,for the childrens' interest. Ironically, the BCTF Big Lie mill still barfed out the class size PR......even if at our school many classes are under the size limits...I recall only one or two classes are at the new class size limit....yet the BCTF implied it was it epidemic.

This was all about BCTF members jobs.I get tired of the BCTF self - serving rant....can't most of us remember large classrooms?????. I think its no different than a university lecture hall...its the "F" word FOCUS...and the "S" word ie structure. Class size is a red herring to cover bad teaching or bad teaching methods. I loved the Chudnovsky quote earlier of a one teacher to one student ratio. That is that ever -scary socialist mindset.

" HI.... We're your ONLY teacher David (or Jinny)...let ME prepare YOU for the REAL world...NDP goosestep NDP goosestep....Non NDP = Bad...Gordo = bad = bite the hand that gave you a $4000 bonus and %16 raise oh is recess time...."

Yeppp!!! Whee do I sign up...elsewhere.

The text books they use look like comic books...the touchy- feely mind- candy oozes out of them...and many are poorly written. Huge voids of continuity,mostly leaps , especially Math. Photocopying notes, texts, questions ....is another pox...again no continuity or re -refernce ability ...this must be due to some agenda...can't say its due to shitty textbooks, because they are copying from shitty textbooks...

Catch-22 by design ???

Those are my real life/in the system observations as an 11 year consumer of the BCTF LTD. ..err the BC Public Education System(1990's -2000's version ),in comparison when I attended.

PS I think the Gov't is doing a slow end around the BCTF...as the agenda...given what the future seems to hold, and the on - line is part of this. The poli- graph shows more militancy, given the declining enrollment ...less teachers needed...less BCTF members less dues...less power..and I think the Public has had enough of this UNelected BCTF Gov't.

How many of you feel , at times, like your kids are political hostages when you drop them off to a BC Public School ???

G West ...how's it going(any kids in the system).... I will talk about uber social engineering later. Murdock ...how's it going ...commented a bit about it already aka "old news" ...

thanks maestro,

I ask only because I think it is important to get the personal observations and impressions from other parents.

cheers

University professors teach adults, not kids. Comparing grade-school to a university lecture hall is a red herring. There is a difference between hearing a lecture and being taught.

My daughter is in a class with 30 other little grade 4's. The other class in the school also has 30 kids. Gordo can't afford an extra teacher so we could have 3 clases of 20 I guess.

If upping the class size was a good thing and adopting the university lecture hall was the way to go then why not have no teachers and we'll put all the kids in separate classrooms and let them watch a tv running with their lesson for the day. Just think, that way we'd only have to pay for one teacher per grade for the entire country and we could probably get Rogers or Shaw to spring for that cost too. Or to make it all buzzwordy and cutting-edge-like we could have them download their own QuickTime or Mpeg video and watch the same video on their gov't provided laptop. No more clones, just little individuals watching their digital videos at their own pace. What a Brave New World that would be.

Re: BCTF and the supposed high calibre Public Education system.

Anyone recall THE SIMPSONS episode when Principal Skinner mentioned something to the effect of "Thank-God for all the Asian students ....they keep the overall GPA up for the education system"

I almost fell off the couch laughing....

Its TRUE..and kudos to the Asian-Canadians their children ....and also kudos to the SIMPSON writers.

Skinners' comment isn't at all racist its simply the less advertised truth. Moreso in the last 20+ years due to all the immigration.

There is a disconnect from what one sees in school versus this "BC = We're the top Education System".

This really hit home years ago in the French Immersion(FI) program(in hnidsight = over-rated). I asked a fellow parent why they drive 3-4 miles to our school...and they said that their catchment school had a huge ESL facet...they wished to avoid ....thus enrol in the French Immersion. Others say the same basic thing...FI to avoid ESL..... We chose FI for different reasons.

Anyone that is familiar with the Asia culture realizes the high importance they place on education. The kids study and work hard. Many of them will also access the TUTOR industry(whose ever growing presence is another indictment of the Public Education system)...even if these same students are doing well already. A family member noted their Asian neighbours child is an whiz at math...but a revolving door of tutors at the house.

I am appalled at the # of other parents I know who have to pay to have their children Tutored...what does that tell you...???

Look at the names on any published honour roll.

Again...kudos to the Asian - Canadians... and of course many others who focus their kids in similar ways. Kudos again to THE SIMPSONS Writers...

However.....NO KUDOS to the public system that takes credit where likely no credit is due, but again takes the stats, doesn't see "the devil is always in the details" and still has the gall to pat themselves on the back...

Much of THE SIMPSONS is popular because it is the more sarcastic version of the UNvarnshed truth.

Its like the Ringers episode: Mr Burns hire Major League Ball players to win a house game...Now sub in Ringers for the tutors.

One tutor(ex teacher) for a major tutoring firm stated why they are so busy...and stated the way things like MATH are taught is wrong...they have strayed from the way MATH was always taught successfully ..

Why fix it if it ain't broke???..and WAS successful...which is why the Public Education System is broken...a disorganized religion....it's a " fix it anyway " in social - engineering mode.

maestro, so what you're saying now is you don't want university lecture type classrooms? Instead you want what Chudnovsky would like to see, one student with one tutor/teacher? So every little Alexander the Great gets his own Aristotle?

Jay Currie, you appear to have a very skewed idea of what our schools offer today.

Our local elementary school offers sports (regular gym, after-school sports run by teacher-volunteers & special events, e.g. Sports Day & Terry Fox charity run next Friday); art, with individual & group projects proudly covering every wall & corridor; music, band & choir; kids' performances & visits from professional performing arts groups. Our library offers far more for kids than the local VPL Branch; a home reading program challenges kids to read (books, not textbooks) at least 30 minutes a day (that's on top of individual & buddy reading programs at school, the latter to support younger & struggling readers).

Field trips are a challenge, but parents get together to fundraise for exciting group trips--e.g. "outdoor school" on Keats Island. Most teachers are great, some so-so and the odd one sucks, but that's life. Our kids still learn far more than they would from you or I alone. And then playing with "out-of-school" friends adds even more dimensions. That's what "education" is about--exploring the whole world, warts & all, not just the little corner that our parents feel comfortable inhabiting.

Budget cuts have brought great challenges--special ed cuts, librarians' time, etc--and declining enrolment doesn't help, but our public schools are still the envy of much of the world, certainly far above the average US standard. Time to stop buying into the stereotypes and to look for yourself.

(...Oh, and cellphones aren't permitted in class in any school I know. Some kids--like their parents--will push the limits, but peers & teachers make sure they quickly learn that's not OK. Just another way we're creating a better world...)

G West - The top 10% of wages earners pay roughly 50% of all income taxes. The bottom 50% of wage earners pay roughly 10% of all income taxes. Regardless of what system is used to arrive at those ratios it seems reasonable to me. If it's not reasonable to you, what would be?

Time for you to follow your own advice and stop buying the "budget cuts" stereotype. Overall funding and funding per student are at all time highs.

Frank:

No..you are extrapolating it too far out...re: class size

Its the "F" word ie focus. It trumps class size...and no..I am not implying Grade 4's should be in 300 seat lecture halls....This is again (like our enviros blog discussion) an outside the box look at the bigger picture versus BCTF propoganda.

I assume you have one child...via your last comment.

HOWEVER...Have you ever "taught" a bunch of kids in any capacity.....??
I have...in a Volunteer capacity for 13 + years. Same principles apply .

I find we all have limited time...and also X number of people involved who are not clones .... they are each unique individuals.

Teach??? Basically... What's today's Hymn book (lesson)....lets start on the same page and hopefully at the end of the session we UNDERSTAND the same page. "Focus" bridges that...." students..don't distract the others... lets make sure we get the basics...(the old can't run if don't know how to walk...). etc etc.

Old prof: Summed up teaching as follows:

(i) I will tell you what I will be teaching you today (start of focus)
(ii) I will then teach it.(ie the lesson)
(iii) I will then tell you what I just taught you (review/discussion/questions )

BRILLIANT.....yet how many actually do this??

Its the BCTF that is stating the class is X...now we start the cloning aka assumption that every teacher is the same and every student is the same. Bullshit...How do you pick the golden class size #??? especially in this ever diverse climate.

Will the BCTF golden class size # be ratcheted down...if so ..why...? See if correlation with BCTF membership decline....

You work with the cards you are dealt...
that makes you a good teacher..adapting to the individuals...but the #1 is set the tone early.

Back to sports...the BCTF reminds me of Yankees owner George Steinbrenner...success = throw a lot of money at it...I love the lower budget teams winning the World Series kicking their NYY ass out.

Its all about focus and structure and hard work...not featherbedding , airy fairy edu -theories...and waiting for an early pension at 55.

If any teacher can't, over a 30+ year career handle a class of 30, they can't be a very good teacher. A good teacher would pay their BCTF dues ...(to keep their professional college eligibility) but turn of the TV when Jinny comes on...and come up with a plan that deal with the cards they are dealt with each year...

Like I said in the enviro blog, Frank...the organization affects the image of the individual members. And yes...there are good teachers out there....but not as many as when I was in the system...but their militant colleagues tend to have them turtle and not become even better teachers..or they burn out carrying to much of the load..ie extracurriculars.

I doubt a good teachers game plan would change much from year to year...most GOOD ones don't change why -fix -it plan given the 100's of different UNcloned kids they will deal with ...but take these cards and turn them into aces ready to take on the world a stronger productive individual...not an NDP clone.

HOMEWORK:
Watch the 1970's movie BOYS FROM BRAZIL: sub Jinny and crew for the Gregory Peck character...

NLN,

Do you have kids actually in the system now?

Maestro, at my child's school we also see the cultural differences you describe--Asian parents placing more emphasis on high grades, with tutors & summer school even for top kids.

But you seem to take this as evidence that our public system is not what it's cut out to be and I'd challenge that. Outside the Lower Mainland, Asian students are hard to find, yet we don't see obvious discrepancies in scores along such geographic lines lines. And don't forget that, with the whole world to choose from, our public education system is a key attraction for many Asian immigrants.

More importantly, our standardised test results reflect just one dimension of the far broader "education" that our public system offers. We may still lack the sophistication to accurately measure and compare these broader benefits, but once we start to appreciate the multidimensional nature of a good education, we can see them sprouting in our own kids and in the broader patterns reflected in the society at large.

When they leave the geometry tutor, our Asian students are also learning far more important lessons about leadership, dialogue, using their imaginations, citizenship, community involvement, etc--lessons that will ultimately take them much further in life than just how to use pie-R-squared!

Frank aka Grasshopper

Kung Fu master here...

Re Chudnovsky and the one teacher to one student ratio.

My text is clear that I would LOL (Laugh Out Loud) at the very idea...My blog even says I'd sign up my kids ELSEWHERE.....

Also I said right after talkin about Chud-sky QUOTE: " That is the ever scary socialist mindset" .

Pretty clear ....N'est pa???

However, Your Alexander the Great and Aristotle analogy is bang on....simply the BCTF is the Aristotle...all other students are the Alexander the Great...just the multiplier effect.

Dudes like Chudnovsky make it all a MONTY PYTHON parody. A reducto ad absurdum argument for any socialist would be a one -to -one ratio...Top pay and total control...Life is good for Socialism Ltd. (now on the Soviet stock exchange ...IPO ) He ,Chud-sky , shouldn't say such things....it exposes more of the obvious down deep in their pseudo intellectual minds at the BCTF top.

Here is a bonus anecdote.

Family member was on a BCTF delegation at their convention when Chudnovsky was running for the BCTF presidency versus the incumbent(Krieger???). Chudnovsky was campaigning...and came over to their table...schmoozing,....asking how he could get them to vote for him.

They said " SHAVE OFF THAT BEARD !!! "

Didya notice the clean cut look shortly after...??? Rememeber ..he WON.

I guess even BCTF members are image conscious...versus having the Wild - eyed Rasputin look.

Thus....LESSONS learned: Pretty obvious !!!

One is : Beards and your childrens interests go hand in hand .

No, I have one still in school.

The golden class size is a 1:1 ratio. Tutoring on a 1:1 basis helps kids, period. Its not because public or private school teachers are bad its because they don't get to teach on 1:1 level like tutors do. You said yourself tutors make a difference, I agree.

You're claiming only one side has an interest in the issue. Parents also want lower class sizes. I have yet to see a parent group protesting for bigger class sizes. Gov'ts want bigger class sizes so they have more money for Olympics and other circuses they think will get more votes. Saying teachers protesting the cutting of a librarian or another teacher is just politics ignores why the gov't made the cut.

You're kidding right? When I see tutors say 1:1 instruction isn't important and they're happy to teach 29 other kids for the same price and same results I'll believe you.

Your evidence is? You may want to look at what was said here back during the teacher's strike. We had lots of teachers join the discussion back then.

International testing shows our teachers are doing a better job now than when you or I was in school.

NoLeftNutter,

I've put in the time required to intimately understand this problem, both re the numbers and economics and the on-the-ground impacts. Have you? I'd explain it, but it takes a fair bit of time and your handle suggests it would be a waste of my time.

Here are a couple concepts to get you thinking, however:
- economies of scale (and their reverse) in the context of large rural populations and declining enrolment
- inflation-adjusted dollars and real buying power
- spending relative to GDP
- the influence of policy on spending priorities (choice & flexibility agenda)
- accountability: as you shift to performance-based management, remember that what's not measured doesn't get done (Where's the accountability in Special Ed? Sports? Arts?)

Perhaps the most objective assessment of what really happened in education funding in BC in the early 2000s was from the provincial accountants' association a couple years back. StatsCan also has very useful data (and cross-country comparisons). BC has undeniably boosted funding and alleviated the worst of the 2002-04 cuts in the past two years, but inflation--capital building costs, another hefty salary increase--will quickly eat that up if it's not funded--the way they didn't fund the 2002 teachers' pay raise.

And if you have a long memory, you'll remember the task force appointed in the late 1990s to look into the "crisis" in special education in BC (which certainly didn't disappear while we were busy closing schools, laying off teachers, etc in 2002-05).

I already told you NLN. You're not paying attention. Every dollar earned, no matter how, is available for taxation. No more holidays. If all the corporate tax holidays and special deals for so-called 'investors' were ended - along with the reach-arounds to businesses to intice them to set up their 'plant' (ususally a call centre these days) in district A as opposed to district B then your figures might mean something. As it is, they don't. One of the first steps, I'm beginning to think, would be an elimination of Provincial Governments altogether. Great Britain has about 2 1/2 times more people than Canada does and seems to manage just fine without the extra level of government and the added entitlements that go along with it.

I said:
"- economies of scale (and their reverse) in the context of large rural populations and declining enrolment."

That wasn't very clear--I meant a high proportion of rural populations to serve. (For example, if you want to see an apparently "overfunded" system, check out StatsCan's figures for funding per student in the Yukon, etc. and you begin to understand the point...)

A further point is BC's unique combination of high ESL ratios in urban areas & high Aboriginal ratios in others, which means more kids with unique needs who require extra attention.

Hello NAME:

Good comments.

We all have our epiphanies...and our perceptions. Given the often large gap in time between leaving the system as an ex- student and then one's own children now entering the system..it is fair to say we go in likley thinking things didn't change much .

The eye openers was that "virginal" first few years as NOW parents of students . I wish I was making it up.

Your points are well taken...but also remember most of BC population and hence the students is actually located in the Lower Mainland call it one big inner city....versus the rest of BC. Hence, most teachers will be in the Lower Mainland . Hence,...this has the major skewing of the issue and sets the MAIN tone.

Re outside the Lower Mainland Statistically speaking , you are probably right....and other areas with less Asian student also do well. Maybe those reasons should be explored...compare Non Asians in Lower mainland vs. Non Asians outside the Lower Mainland.

Maybe , elsewhere, the ESL factor is gone...old time schooling is the norm. Again, in my epiphany as a parent ,... many avoid ESL...their kids speak English...yet feel the teacher will spend too much time with the ESL students . That IS one reason French Immersion is SO popular.

FYI Also note..the schools love ESL...they get extra funding per ESL student . Anecdote: 3rd generation Asian -Canadian parent tells me she was insulted when the Principal assumed they were new immigrants...but then the Principal was disappointed cause they weren't...due to the non eligible for extra ESL funding.

Re the attraction for Asian students to our BC system....you might want to look at this through different lenses. It is apparently very difficult to get into Universities in their own countries of origin...Their goal is to get the DOGWOOD...ie the Grade 12 diploma.

My understanding of the system (talked to Ministry of Education offical about this)is that if they come in here with all the credentials ie Grade 12 from elsewhere...they are now in the FOREIGN STUDENT Loop. Different rules and limits.

If however, they come here in say Grade 10 etc....as an immigrant etc...and get their Grade 12 DOGWOOD Diploma here....they qualify to enter University no different than say a child that has been in the BC system since K. Thats my understanding of how it works...

Of course...once in University ( THE Goal ) it is a whole new set of no BS higher standards..(though some parents do talk about what they percieve as laxer standards and easier degree factories...but I can't comment on that YET...

(FYI I do recall in my Grad year the Universities were pissed about the English skills...and forced the high schools to clean up their act...we had to write an exam and pass or refused admission. I recall our Valedictorian and next brightest failed these and had to re-write them).

Of course,throw in all the studying focus ....tutoring...and the fact many go to summer school to say move a B+ in MATH to an A ( legal to do)..you see the picture...and how this all gets skewed

Again..due to good teaching ???? OR.......again the devil is in the details.

Its easy to make conclusions based on surface evidence...ever here the parable about the blind men crawling over the elephant??? One thought the leg was a tree trunk....the ear a leaf....

NAME...for me its Epiphany ad infinitum ad infinitum ....a total different world than when I left the system.

Frank:

Again..sorry....misconstrued.

Also: Have you ever taught a bunch of kids.... ????

I did not actually say " Tutors make a difference" in black and white context...

They(Tutors) are more " the canary in the mine".... the point is why is there so many kids being tutored....why is there almost as many Tutoring companies as Starbucks...

Honest to God,.... I can't go into a commercial complex without seeing a KUMON....SYLVAN ...or other Tutor company . Tutoring when I was in school was the odd student tutoring a younger person...or the odd University grad hanging flyers on billboards...

No.... I DO stand by that 30 student per class comment... I picked that number on reflection, and I am being VERY generous...vividly recalling classes of 30 + ...40 in some years...when I was in school...
No-one from my peer groups seems to have stated this common phenomenon handicapped them.

30 students is basically what most teachers have now as limits....except the lower grades. In fact I saw my own schools class size breakdown..room by room...most classes are below the limits...and ours is what may be deemed an inner city school ..... Do we pay these teachers with less than 30 students any less....NO !!! Jinny and crew aren't even in the same room.

In addition...let's not forget the added learning assistants(LA) as a factor ...I think our school has one LA per every 4-5 teachers. Sorry...too many stories of the teacher giving up on the kids ...send the kid to the LA....the LA so-called "tries"....sends the kid back...repeat...and no one fails??? One of our own LA's takes a student...sits them down..shows them how to do the problem...then asks them "do you understand" the kid says yes...yet not having to do it themselves...yeah right!!!!

It seems to me the system is geared to look at your child as the problem...or has problems...vs the system look in the mirror.
One rookie teacher claimed a friends child was dumb and maybe A.D.D. (common kneejerk excuse)...It took a High School teacher to correctly suspect Epilepsy. Mother gave up and Home Schooled. Actually did it for her other 2 kids as well..School system lost approx. $18,000 in Gov't funding(ie $5600 + per student X 3 ).

Is the teacher doing there job...or the job featherbedding and hiding quality of education. Accountability ???

Can a tradesmen be paid his rate and the boss says here's an extra guy/gal to help you do the same job we only used one guy/gal to do 30 years ago...Yeah right....morseo have to work harder NOW than 30 years ago.

Perhaps the Asian students use tutoring to excel but the Non Asian students use them to tread water...or fill in gaping holes...

Gutless Gordo was simply "whipped" by the BCTF...in the short term at least...he didn't want to challenge them very much....2010 was looming. They are simply an organized group...of any other in the Organized Labour's Private or Public sector...that have this unique bargaining chip called "our children".

Hey..the BCTF is now voting on their contract(16% raise and $4000 bonus...what are(i) the odds they will turn it down and (ii)our kids will get 16 % better education...or we save the equivalent of $4000 in tutoring costs???.

When they say its not about the money..its always about the money.... but the BCTF at least stated it was ALWAYS ABOUT THE $$$$$...(but somehow for your childrens' sake...and too many buy into this and wonder why Johnny can't read and needs an LA,...a tutor and mom and dad up at night???? ).

Saddle up..another school year beckons...

Like math? No. Soccer? yes. Lot easier to get 10 kids on the same page than 20.

Because of increasing student to teacher ratios? Especially when more and more people believe in a good education. perhaps more and more people think 1:1 is a good idea, for their kid at least.

As for LA's, that wasn't my daughter's experience. She received help that she needed.

On the subject of ADD, the more kids you have in the class the harder it is to deal with those that don't want to pay attention. I myself don't believe in failing kids however. Failing a child is taking the easy way out, blame the victim etc.

You seem to be on an anti-union tirade. When gov't says its not about the money, its about the money. Private school teachers have the same issues as public ones. Same with private learning companies. You can't blame Jinny Sims for private schools wanting to have low class sizes or tutors wanting 1:1 ratios.

Maestro:

-- IMHO, parents choosing French Immersion because they want to raise bilingual kids is a great thing. Those doing it to avoid ESL classes are doing their kids a big disservice. We're at a very mixed school (20+ different birth-countries & five major language groups. It's been a terrific learning opportunity--and not just for the kids. The understanding and comfort I'm gaining about Canada's new multicultural realities makes me a minority in my generation, I suspect.

So teachers need to have a medical degree too!

That's interesting.

G West:

Re Social engineering

FYI: I came across an interesting set of articles a while back from an interesting NY native...now an NY education critic ( Sorry....Name escapes me ....a Mr. STEIN ??? )

He talked about the NY school system he entered after WW II....his Hippy years...his later maturing,... and settling down and having his OWN family.

When he brought his first child to school ,...the first day into the same NY system he graduated from.......he seems to imply his mouth hit his toes...

He has ultimately switched from very liberal views to very conservative....I guess it happens often when it hits closer to home...

(G West...You may agree that NY and Chicago and parts of California are hotbeds for many movements that resonate change elsewhere...and especially in public education...
That is my experience upon reading up on this topic...) Also: A family member is a NY teacher....fascinating how what happens there has come to pass HERE...

This NY person recalled from his own youth a very focussed structure...and yet a very healthy learning environment. "old school" , and looks back with fond memories .

However..fast forward...He found his own child in a very subjective learning environment...as well as many other issues....and had serious questions about his child's edu- future.

He also made an interesting observation of something many of us overlook...the basic way desks are laid out....the grouped patterns versus the old desks in a row many of us recall. His view is that this new seating arrangement in classes is simply not conducive to learning,....very distracting... and seems to have some touchy - feely social engineering agenda...in his view...

Of course, many lapdog supporters of the BCTF " Social Justice" agenda...(whatever that quantifiably is...amonsgt other we- know -better agendas) think this is great...global village ....we are family etc. etc. Sorry, but that's why God invented Recess, Lunch Hour etc. . Socialize then .... or before and after school.

Group -think later...after the 3 R's are down pat....

He also looked deeply into the rise of the Teachers Unions...and how they evolved into a very powerful political force...one most politicians will often capitulate to. It seems they would rather take on the Mafia than the Teachers unions.

He talked about what he thought was a homeless person...stumbling along the playground....then found out this was a teacher they had bounced around the system ..couldn't fire or retire...

Ultimately, he wasn't very happy,..had an " it - hit - home " epiphany, and now is an active critic. I saw much of what he wrote being paralleled up here.

Also: we continually hear about the separation of Church and State. I think the past interpretation was Church should not become involved in STATE business / politics etc..

However, more recently...someone said..no...the converse is true...the intent was to keep them separate so that the STATE can't influence the Church.

Interesting re-evaluated perspective...in sync with my social engineering premise views and subsequent concerns re: the education system....

Teach...and don't Preach.....yet call it teaching.

For cancer one goes to the Principal I guess! You seem to have a pretty decent sense of humour Maestro and since we're moving into areas of diagnosis using the internet I was wondering about A.D.D. when I was reading a couple of your posts!

G West:

Re epilepsy:

No...missed the point...

The other(first) rookie teacher played doctor...then misdiagnosed...

Told the parent the kid should be pulled out of the FI program aka dumb.(In Grade 5 at this point)

The parent then feels the person(first parent) is an infallible expert.

Nothing is fixed...

Frustrated parent moves on to different school ... other teacher notices something...probably via experience...ends up with proper diagnosis by actual M.D.

LESSON:

You're correct G West.

Don't Hang a MD shingle with only a B Ed. degree.

Question: Any G. West Jr's in school ???

G West:

The Principal can be THE cancer...that's a whole nuther topic.

PS G'ster Your sense of humour ain't bad...(its usually how I diagnose hard core socialists...Too F'n serious with THE CAUSE )....maybe needs a bit of P....Po....Pol...Poli...Polis......whats the F'n word????? ....oh yeah POLISH ....sorry ....A.D.D. ..where's the ADD pills my kids teacher prescribed for Rkewen ???.

Name:

Too many on this blog think I either make the rules...or make this all up(except like- minded twin G West).

I wish I had that kind of power...maybe in a week or so.

FYI our school stats are over 40 different languages/origins .

We personally went FI for the same basic reasons you did. I am commenting on other reasons for FI enrollment...Ie the parent who lives 500 ft from a school , yet drives 3-4 miles to go to another...to avoid ESL.. interesting phenomenon. How many do this???....this isn't the first time I have heard this.

I don't at all consider this racism...but parents concerns about there childrens education and choosing an end around Plan B. By definition , most FI students almost all have English. FI can be equated as all on the same page...at the start...

Also at our school FI is also very visually multi cultural...many Asians, East Indians...Jewish...in the FI program .....but mostly by parents who have grown up in Canada.

Controlled experiment..IF no ESL students..THEN how many FI students??? Be interesting.

Again,the devil is always in the details. We actually had a Human Rights case filed against a local teacher /columnist who stated in the paper that parents do this FI for the reason I outlined.

Multiculturalism is great....expands outside the school and into our families' friends...a literal domestic version of the UN....(especially the food).

More food for thought.

Frank

At least you qualified with the word "seems"

I "seem" to be anti - union.
Answer: NO

Therefore, rebuttal is You "seem" to be either anti- Gov't or Pro - Union. However , via our discussion I didn't actually say you are.

Realistically ,....I simply don't like to be bullied by leadership group(BCTF) who represent an ORGANIZATION of supposed professionals. Remember our past blog re: organizations..same dynamics apply..leadership tars the individual members ???

However, if the teachers allow this bunch to represent them, what am I supposed to think...that they do actually speak for them???.

You, Me,.... all of us pay our taxes....we expect to receive what we pay for...not some group on the extended Public teat taking full advantage of a motherhood issue. Are you, me, anyone else cheating the teachers....any cheques ever bounce...better Job security...and we are not even talking about the benefit package .

The simple message = solution is " throw more money at the problem ". They haven't even identified what the ACTUAL problem is...but they sure as hell got the money..right??? Fixed ???

Gordo and Co. at least had them cornered, strategically timed , when their bonus deadline approached...statistics rebutting the BCTF teacher shortage...I think Jinny and Co. would have been lynched if that $4000 bonus "for the kids" had gone up in smoke.

C'mon Frank....its human nature on all sides of the political spectrum. There is no HOLY side. Otherwise....have the BCTF and its members start another religion besides just the BCTF PR ...open a quasi-parochial school and live on tithing, and shun the world and all its evil capitalist materialism. NOTE: Jinny...and Chud-sky: Call me first ....I have a Pick Up...

Even NDP leader Carol James and the NDP party seems to be distancing themselves from "Planet BCTF".
Remember ol Jim Sinclair and the BC Fed backed off quickly last year after they realized who they had jumped into bed with. Ouuchhh!!!

Don't matter much to me...my kids inherited their Mom's brains...

Its the other ones I have concerns over...given what I see....I like everyone to have wings...not BCTF Trust us or else cement shoes.

Me.....Pretty socialist eh ????

--------------------------------------

PS Frank.....this Tutor and 1:1 you talk about.

My point is everyone wants a PRIVATE Tutor to student ratio of 1:1.....and pays extra for it. Like a Doctor to patient ratio at the given moment to be 1:1.

However that is after and if the teacher doesn't do their job....The tutor is the emergency 1:1 plan B

No Public system can afford a one teacher to one student ratio...we pick a ratio????....

My suggestion is 30 -to -1 ratio...but in the future it will be less...and the BCTF can at least do THAT math ????

Re LA's ....glad it worked out for you and yours ....

Frank - yes I have a child in the public education system.

G West - sorry my figures don't make sense to your way of thinking but they are the actual proportions of taxes paid according to statscan. If the ratios don't work for you which ones do?

I'll answer that, the ratio may look pretty one sided but its not based on the actual wealth of each side. The lowest 10% are pretty much in the negatives as far as wealth go. Shouldn't your chart showing the top 10% pay X amount of tax be based on the number of dollars they have?

Hypothetically, if 10% of the population owns 75% of the country shouldn't their taxes be up around 75%?

If you have a basic exemption where only people who are making higher than the poverty cut off pay taxes anyway that would mean the wealthy 10% would be paying even higher taxes, like say 90%.

G's point is simple. That every dollar in Canada is not taxed at the same rates. I can understand for those at the bottom end but I have trouble with it forthose at the top end.

maestro, its because you seem to be talking about the union and not so much about the education system.

Supposedly there's more money and less kids, so why should class sizes be getting bigger? Bad management of public dollars by the gov't?

I don't think 30:1 is a good number. I'd prefer something closer to 1:1, let's say 20:1 like in my daughter's grade 1 to 3. But bascially I look to teachers to tell me what would be a good class size for a particular grade and situation.

The thing is, if a doctor tells me I have cancer I don't call the ministry and ask for a 2nd opinion. The education system on the other hand attracts a lot of "expert" opinion simply because we went to school ourselves.

I understand that that some dollars are taxed differently than others. Your suggesting that tax rates should vary according to wealth, rather than income. Most of the wealthy do pay hihger taxes through higher consumption. Agian, my question to G West was - If you don't like the current ratios for income tax collected what ratios are acceptable. And, why?

Most of my posts are framed in the position that increased taxation and government spending don't improve the average Canadian's life. Federal government spending has increased by about $70 billion per year since 98/99. That translates to about $5,000 more per year per individual Canadian taxpayer. I know that my life would be better off if my family had the extra $10,000 per year.

The sad reality is that the increased re-distribution hasn't measurably improved the life of most Canadans, if any. How do you feel about losing the $5,000 per year for no tangible benefit?

Frank
actually, I'm still a big supporter of progressive taxes - it's not so much the rates that are the problem but the fact that folks at the top end (at least partly because of the 'way' they earn their money) get all sorts of sweetheart deals that working folks and the working poor can never ever hope to take advantage of.: Dividend tax credits; capital gains treatment; Small Business investment losses; accelerated business write offs and the like are just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure you can add others such as trusts and the like. Even the transfer of tuition fees and the education expense deduction favours those with higher incomes because of the fact that the transferred portion of fees (to either a parent or a grandparent btw) is much more valuable as the marginal rate of tax goes higher.

I've seen demonstrations (actually I think John Tierney used Estonia as an example in the NYTimes on the weekend) where a broader and fairer tax 'base' would generate as much, or more, income with a flat tax and much larger exemptions for the poor (working and otherwise) but I'm not convinced. I still think the wealthy ought to pay more. I'm not a supporter of the flat tax.

Just look at payroll taxes - CPP and EI. These checkoffs make a significant impact on lower wage earners' take home pay but become a miniscule portion of total pay for anyone who makes more than 100G a year. That's not pulling your weight, in my view. [Not to suggest that the Feds are not playing fast and loose with the kitty when it comes to EI - but that's another question]

Not to mention, of course, that wealth can quite easily be transferred from one generation to another, within the same family, by a variety of means with minimal tax impact - perpetuating the inequities of a system with little or no 'real' upward mobility.

It's not hard to understand the reasons why that's the case if you know who created the tax system and who has a stake in keeping it the way it is.

I don't know enough about the situation in Estonia to determine if Tierney has a point or not. On the other hand, what he's written seems at least interesting - especially when he quotes a French businessman. Here's the kernel of the column:

It took him less than two weeks last year to start his company, Aruzza. Now he has employees from five countries working on deals like importing Spanish ham, exporting Estonian sofas to France and finding programmers in Tallinn to write software for a California company.

He is not a free-market purist — he likes the health care and social services provided by countries like France. But to pay for their safety nets, he figures they need to cut regulations and taxes so they can have robust economies like Estonia’s, which grew about 10 percent last year.

The growth over the past decade has produced so much unanticipated revenue that the tax rate is being gradually reduced to 20 percent. Laar’s political rivals still complain that his flat tax unfairly helps the rich, but as he notes, the level of income inequality in Estonia actually declined during the past decade.

“People think a progressive tax system is fairer,” Laar says. “But in the real world rich people find a way to avoid high taxes. With a flat tax, they stop worrying about sheltering their income or working in the gray economy. There is less corruption because it’s easier to pay the tax.”

Since Laar started the revolution, the flat tax has been adopted by its Baltic neighbors and a half-dozen other countries, including Russia, Ukraine and Romania. Such radical reform is still taboo in Western European countries like France, but they can’t seal their borders against this threat. If they don’t go to Estonia for a lesson in economics, their enterprising citizens will make the trip on their own.

I know, wasn't trying to imply you were a Peter Pocklington acolyte.

Basically, the old flat-tax argument on the Right is you tax all income the same, no special treatment.

You are saying yes to that but with progressive taxation on the final amount. Correct?

Exactly! No matter how you make a dollar - prostitution, gambling, 'legitimate' business, wage slave, investor, capitalist, rich daddy - who cares. Every buck is given equal treatment and is all considered income for tax purposes. You add it all up and apply progressive rates of tax to the whole bundle every year with much larger exemptions at the bottom end and/or an earned income tax credit (paid on a monthly basis) to those standing in a hole or waiting to take the first step up the fiscal ladder.

Petty much what was recommended by the Carter commission in the 60s and promptly nixxed by the banks and the lawyers. Those guys all make the same lame arguments about motivation and reward that should have been retired after FDR's time.

Frank:

Recall the plot of "An Officer and a Gentlemen". Multi -Layered.

You don't weaken people... or claim they are weak and deficient...and avoid the issue ....you empower them. Thats' the focus.

BCTF taking on the Lou Gossett role would have about 10 people in touchy feely "where is my Sigmund Freud couch" and pop edu -theories... barf barf.

Re Expert Opinion:

I can't think of any product that can speak towards Quality Control as well THAN as an Ex student of the system /new parent of a student. Aren't we if anybody,capable of gauging the quality of education..if not isn't THAT in itself an illogical problem.

If we can't who can????. The Educators will tell me???...seems to be a bit of a conflict of interest.

Someone writes a test....get a D...a problem..what do we do..fix it or pass them anyway???

Get an A , is someone doing their job...probably.

Often you should be your own 2nd opinion... in anything....most people don't take the time....

Actually....I am making their (teachers)lives easy...I will worry about the NON teaching stuff.....all I ask is 3R's , well - grounded in the basics....why is that so much to ask ????

BCTF and Co. insult many of our intelligences..is that good coming from the Teachers???

What did they(BCTF) learn in school, or when did they learn it...did I miss a class ??? Maybe its the same old cult dynamics system.

PS I am active on our school PAC ..... great insight on what goes on that many don't see.....plus candid discussions with other parents.

How about you??

Prove to me one is a REAL Expert....Sheepskins don't impress me..old school approach to school in any era.

Jinny is pushing something...I don't want to get addicted to it...

maestro, no, I'm not a member of PAC.

My point is, we all use the health care system, we've all either been in the military or watched Saving Private Ryan, we've all been to church or watched L.A. Law etc. But we don't tell those professionals how the system is going to work the way we do with teachers.

The education system is supposed to be the ones reading all the papers on education. What works and what doesn't. Doesn't mean we don't have a stake in the system and that our opinion should be ignored yet that is in fact what many want to happen to the teachers. As the other article points out, Campbell didn't so much as consult with them. murdock says he doesn't need to, he knows their opinion. Seems to me its an unprofessional stance to take that teachers aren't worth discussing education with.

As for Jinny, private school teachers and private tutors want smaller classes too. Its not simply a "union thing".

Hey everyone - enjoying the slagging of all those teachers eh? Easy way to lay the blame - but be careful, to paraphrase, ...everyone has their good teacher..... So, how many of you are teachers? How many of you chose to go to university to train as a teacher? How many have 'stood in the shoes?' How many wouldn't do it 'for any price'? And if you say you'd do it for free, than go right ahead. I challenge you - do it - for 1 full year. Then report back. I respect the job those teachers do - tried it. Didn't like the atmosphere. Everyone's an expert just 'cause they went to school. Yeah, well just 'cause I've had teeth extracted doesn't make =me a dentist. just 'cause I've cut trees down - and own a chain saw doesn't make me a logger.

I have two children in the public school system. And they are both doing well. Granted, home is stable, we are middle classs, we model reading and learning, we monitor TV, don't own a video game system, spend time with our children - qquality time, not quantity, we have expectations and chores, we are involed with our children's learning (and their schools and thier teachers).

I want my children in small classes, where they are less likely to have to cope with behaviours and distractions, classes where we can expect the teacher to have the time to do the one-on-one, to see our children as individuals, to have the time to allow more than multiple choice tests...I want schools that are inclusive of those with differences, and support for those who need it. I want a school system that is not about funding formulas or limited funding for Special needs, arts, music, band...or science experiments....And I am sick of seeing more and more put into the curriculum (portfolios, career prep, etc.) at the expense of physical education, Math, English - classics should still be read...

And I don't blame the teachers - they don't make policy, they just react to it. At least they don't blindly follow the social planning of the government - NDP and Liberal, both can be, and have made bad decisions, and both ignore the underlying layers of lifer public servants who sit in their ivory and limestone towers making policy decisions with no life experience in recent memory to back it up.

Stop blaming the political retoric of the BCTF/teachers and NDP/Liberal - the people doing the real damage stay in the ministry year after year.....

And sure, there are (accoding to the press) 38,000 or so BCTF members - I bet there are a few bad ones. But I'll wager a lot more that there are a lot of really excellent ones.

Broad brushes are not very accurate.

Good night.

Murdoch,

I didn't intend to make any grand statements back there. All i aim to say, based on my own experiences, is that a computer program or online site cannot replace the physical and verbal aspects experienced with a teacher in a classroom.

Lets face it, we're social creatures, or at least we're supposed to be, and most of us excel, stay motivated, and are better able to adhere to discipline while working within a like-minded group. Of course there are always exceptions.

The way i see it, the more that technoloy is used to substitute for human interaction the more isolated and anti-social we become as a society.

Sooner or later all children will have to work with others as co-workers, and they will have bosses and perhaps their own employees. It's no secret that kids learn best early on. Learning good group dynamics while still young is a good thing in my opinion.

When i said tangible, what i meant was, the experience of actually putting pencil, yes pencil! to paper. Or physically disscecting an earthworm on a tray of wax in biology class. These are very direct ways of learning that are reinforced by the physical act of doing them. They cannot be replicated
online.

Also, nothing can replace a positive word of encouragement from a teacher. Some of the most valuable knowledge i gained during K-12 were a few select things that different teachers said to me over the years. (I'm sure you've had similar experiences too-or maybe you have chosen to forget them). I'm talking simply valuable tidbits of advice or insight that will not be garnered from a website.

And while we're on the subject, computers should not be viewed as some kind of revolutionary replacement tool for learning. Yes, they have their advantages, no one is denying that. But to say that a virtual school can compare with a traditional one is bull. Each has its place.

For instance, although you may find all of the requisite information required to carry out the following tasks, you will never actually learn them without rolling up your sleeves and physically doing them. I'm talking about things like learning to change the oil in your car, milk a cow, speak in public, learn another language (this requires interaction with others), etc.

That's all i meant to say.

Last spring semester there was no Math 12 class. Three students were forced to take it in summerschool (out of town) in order to enroll in university.
The Principal and School Board all lined up with poker faces and stated flatly that 3 students didn't warrant the expenditure for a class.
A) The entire School Board should be fired if only THREE STUDENTS were going to take Math 12. That's a total failure of the entire educational system.
B) The beancounters have one. The majority of parents disagree with me and accept the financial argument even for core classes. Thay dun juss fine without Math 12.

EDIT: I meant the beancounters have won. Okay I skipped a lot of English 12. So listen to the voice of experience!

This whole topic originated around on -line learning.

A few years back, our school district had a meeting for parents and showed the enrollment projections for our district. They apparently use a StatsCan model, fairly accurate.

Suffice it to say, they showed declining enrollment projections for a 10 - 15 year period.

5 schools are closed...more likely. Never seen this before in our city.

Herbies point is well taken... (However..I wonder what the background is...only 3 students for a Math 12 class ??? )
His school board felt it not worth it to pay for the class...but I can see where they are coming from...it starts a slippery slope for other low enrollment classes.

Many (High)schools have moved into some niche' boutique program offering..ie provide courses not offered elsewhere. Inherently , some of these cost more per pupil than another course. One school offers some aeronautical program...but this sucks funds from other classes given the schools limited budget. Apparently one aeronautical class of 10 could fund an English class of 30. Who wins...who loses???

Declining enrollment creates a bizarre domino effect. Schools close, the districts hope to fill the next nearest school with the closed school students...doesn't always happen. Many students disperse all over the district.

There really is no real fixed catchment area anymore ...everyone is or can be mobile and choose whatever school they like, subject to room in the school. With declining enrollment...even an ex Supt. said that kids have a number attached to their heads...ie approx $5800...schools are out trying to attract kids " customers " with thier $5800 funding allocation ...now even with brochures.

Talked to a parent yesterday...had 3 kids in 3 separate high schools...due to DIFFERENT programs...now one child is going to the same one as another outside the normal catchment.

Is this good....??? Do people run to different schools for bad hair days...perception vs. reality ....sounds like divorce -mode practice...Also the schools are effectively cannabalizing each other for students .

The system used to be predictable...offer the same core courses...in the Academic Track and the Non - Academic (ie Trades) Track. Now its a dog's breakfast...public schools are more like boutiques....catering to a certain "perceived" clientele...Courses are cancelled all the time... been there.

In addition...if each school is different...how do you gauge them re: quality education delivery ..what's the reference point...??? Sexy architecture ???

These clashing forces of enrollment decline...lack of predictability within and amongst schools...shop and compare between boutique public schools ...is not healthy nor productive, nor what one would expect from a public school.

On line learning may be a " bad " solution...but it may be the better one given all the other options. There are way too many variables floating around out there. Like Herbie's example...if Grade 12 Math was offered on -line...problem (possibly)solved for those in that situation, because there is then an option in sync with the normal school year...and not having to attend summer school.

On line learning is simply foreseeing a problem...indicative of a problem...its not the problem. I don't think there will be a huge demand for it...it will simply provide solutions for those caught in the middle with class cancellations, etc. Most( parents and students) will likely prefer the schools valuable social interaction aspects.

Only time will tell.

Frank:

Re: PAC's

Under the " the best things in life are free " category .

There is probably no greater " education " one can get about life and politics than being on a PAC.

Perception meets reality...one gets a handle of how society works, group dynamics(Organizations)...truly fascinating. Its like a microcosm of society....the spectrum of Voter /Citizen all the way to Bureaucracy /Gov't and everything in between.

If an alien landed....or a recent immigrant came and asked me for the best way to understand our society...I'd say join a PAC/attend PAC Meetings.

When I was younger, pre -Voting age...recall my Mom's friend saying why she wouldn't vote for a certain Prime Minister candidate...answer was "he Looks like a funeral director."

I laughed but thought Huhhh ??? what's the connection ???

Well, its not unheard of that PAC's spawn School Trustee's ....spawn City Councillors ....spawn MLA's and MP's .

Check political resumes to see this .

From my own random sampling on my PAC ...it's pretty scary in the seminal political breeding ground called PAC's. Who needs SURVIVOR???...you live it on a PAC.

Useless discussions, frivolous agendas, fawning ass-kissing , denials of the obvious, misused funds , 110% deference to the so-called professionals...I can see how Rev. Jim Jones got started...but I also see this as if these are the people(PAC) that actually get involved (versus the apathetic majority ),....and act like this in a responsible PAC capacity....no wonder I see what I see at higher levels of authority ie Gov't. Petty, irresposible and dysfunctional etc. Voters and the Elected.

Regardless..... they call the shots via they are there voting on issues... and not enough parties challenge them....they have a mini - clique majority...the rest too gutless ... fear of the " hurt feelings ".
Sound Familiar ???

One of ours ran for a School Trustee position last civic election ...lost..thank God ....a single agenda type...closed mind...apparently on anti-depressants...very moody...unpredictable yet politically ambitious...Yepppp !!!!

School Trustees are often " whipped into shape " by the employees...not molded by the students and parents who elect them .

There is a published academic paper out their called " AMBUSHED BY THE PRINCIPAL" by DAWN BENSON PhD. ( A BC Superintendent ). It is a very candid peer reviewed paper of what really goes on in many schools...how PAC parents and students are manipulated and controlled...why things get done or don't get done. The case studies are very interesting...some very amusing.

Try to access a copy...it may open your eyes the size of saucers...
After I read it. I almost thought it was case studied at our own school...but unfortunately not. It's almost formulaic.

Read it and think about it when you drop off your child at school each day.
Again it's a potent microcosm explanation of how and why society in general is the way it is.

maestro, if there's only 3 kids wanting to take music I can see cancelling the class. But Math 12? A requirement for university? In that case the school board better hire a teacher for those 3.

As for declining enrollment, only Campbell could be so bad at management that he could spend more money on less students and still have to cut LA's and librarians and increase class sizes.

As for PAC, I'll pass thanks. I'm not even sure why they're necessary.

When you live in a small town like I do, courses that are required for university are cancelled all the time due to insufficient numbers. Sometimes the courses are offered every other year to accomodate, other times the students / parents have to figure out how to get the course on their own. School boards can't afford to hire a teacher for just 3 students. There isn't the money to do that.

In my small town we have 2 elementary schools both of which are filled to the brim. Ideally, it would be good to have at least one additional teacher at each school so that we could have another division, therefore, available space for students moving in. That won't happen though so we know that we will end up with some over-sized classes sometime during this school year. That means we will either have to re-organize the entire school or make accomodations some other way (personally, I hope it's the latter).

As far as declining enrollment and funding goes ... it's easy to declare that you've increased funding when you announce additional funds going into education more than once :-) The additional funding also doesn't take into account the increased costs (heating, transportation, shipping, etc.) nor does it take into account the need for new textbooks / materials due to changing curriculums. Principals have to find the money to pay for these somehow so librarians, spec. ed. teachers, teacher assistants, etc. are cut. The govt. also neglects to tell the public that they have changed criteria for some of the spec. ed. categories meaning that fewer students are targetted for special funding. They have to get help somehow so the school foots the bill.

Someone on one of these threads was making comments about LA teachers. I'm sorry that they had such a negative experience. I suggest that, instead of bashing the teachers who are honestly doing the best we can do with limitted funds, why don't you lobby your MLA for more support for the gray area students? The Learning Assistance program was originally designed to help students who needed a little boost to keep them on grade level. Our role has changed dramatically as fewer students receive targetted funding. The students with moderate - severe learning disabilities (and that number grows every year) eat up all the LA time and that means little, if any, time for those students who just need that extra bit of help.

There are some of you who blame teachers for things that we have absolutely no control over. I just shake my head when I read those posts. We do NOT have control over curriculum, funding levels, etc. We would love to take all the parenting responsibilities and give them back to parents but, unfortunately, not everyone who has a child in the public school system does their job as well as all of you so someone has to pick up the slack, don't they? Teachers also do NOT diagnose medical conditions. We can suspect that a child has ADHD (for example) but all we (usually the school psychologist) can do is recommend that the child be seen by a pediatrician.

Personally, I use computer-assisted instruction as part of my program all the time. There are too many students who wouldn't get any help (because there is only one of me when there were two of us pre-2001) without it.

Ohhh and FYI: the Minister of Education (Shirley Bond) was a member of a PAC in Prince George. She then went on to become a School Trustee and Chairperson of the Prince George School Board. Funny .... but she fought the provincial government long and hard about inadequate funding, etc. when she was a member of our Board. I watched her at a Board meeting almost in tears as she announced budget cuts one year. It was the first year that the cuts had actually reached the school level and it was upsetting for us all. Strange how one's beliefs can be changed by a move to Victoria, isn't it?? There are at least two other MLAs in Prince George who are former Trustees and one currently on the board who (it's rumored) is aspiring to run in the next provincial election. So yes, PACs definitely can be the first step in a political career.

Frank:

Re PAC's

Read up on them..they are noted within the BC School Act.

OLD SAYING: If you are not part of the solution..you are part of the problem.

Here is you big chance to get involved in the entry level of life and politics .

Life is politics.

We can all preach on these blogs...if you took the time and attended PAC meetings...you and I would be speaking the same language in many of our on -line discussions.

You'd see where I am coming from (epiphany/inspiration)on a lot of issues...but you can still agree or disagree with me...

PAC's are your legal right to become an active part of the education system..you are an active shareholder with a say in your child's education.

"USE THE COUPON"

Unfortunately PACs have been either controlled by well meaning parents who think fundraisng is their lifes calling....or threats to be counteracted by the paid powers that be at your local school.

Again try and access AMBUSHED BY THE PRINCIPLE...it shows you the power structure and extrapolates to Gov't or any organization.

Just cause you don't see the blood doesn't mean it ain't there. You'll see things in a different light , maybe answer any lingering suspicions.

Knowledge is power.

maestro, I can only assume you're writing tongue in cheek when telling me I can only learn about life by becoming a member of a PAC?

I don't want to be part of the education system. If I did, I would have got a teaching degree. As for being the stepping stone to a political career where I could follow my heart and free the rich from the burden of taxation and reintroduce debtor prisons and public hangings, I'm simply not interested.

I send my kid to school to be taught by a qualified teacher, not by my neighbours in PAC.

I too could learn to sell hotdogs for a $1.25 in advance, cash on the barrelhead or your little princess can go hungry while watching every other kid chowing down?

spedteacher, I cannot for the life of me think of how a school can't supply a teacher for Math 12 even if there are only 3 kids. Its Math! Not Band or Drama or Woodworking, what could be more important than teaching math to kids that actually want to take it?

I stand by my point that Campbell must be the worst manager in history if kids can't take math in school at a time when he's got more money than ever in the system (he says).

In my college math class (albgebra), every single seat is taken. I mean, we cannot fit another person in this classroom it's so full. Plus, both the teacher and a TA have bent over backwards in just a few short hours to encourage and rencourage us to make use of the math lab (that we have already paid for they keep saying over and over again).

I don't know, maybe i'm asleep. Maybe i'm not seeing something. Is there a connection between budget cuts and real world demands that i'm missing here??

What about the future?

spedteacher

its the cool-aid

Frank:

I'm not sure who is the straight man or the comic in this discussion.

Rewind back to our organizations etc. discussions.

Its an old bit of wisdom that you make a serious mistake assuming those in charge know what they are doing. I revise that as blind trust = bad.

I have a problem with paying someone to teach yet claiming other expertise...yet engaged in left wing politics/class warfare...represented by often deceptive leadership...that is not my understanding of their role..given your comments of their expertise..they should stick to their expertise...I AGREE.

No..PAC or ther equivalent was created 100 years ago all over North America...based on popular demand...WHY?? Because parents want to see that their children education is meeting expectations etc. I doubt any Gov't has refused them this right..BC has entrenched it.

Don't assume the parents..products of the educations system are stupid...its their KIDS..not their car,..or dog...or

There is no blind trust maestro, we have administrators, school districts and the ministry too. Where do PAC's affect the curriculm?

Actually, I don't see the reason for school districts anymore either. The ministry decides everything.

Part of IFA can be done online but the practical knowledge cannot. Several of my people have done the theory for IFA online. This allows them to stay at work and earn for their families. The practicum is done hands on and I always pay for it. It is worth it and the more people you have on your site with their IFA tickets the lower your Work Safe premiums are.

Like I said, one size does not fit all.

Spedteacher:

I have been an active PAC member for over 10 years...and attended close to 100 meetings. It's been a great experience , and from which much can be gleaned and extrapolated.

I just wish more parents would attend...the PAC is, or should be, a great forum for two way communication between the Parents and the Staff...but unfortunately maybe 20 out of say 600-800 parents will ever get involved...

Schools have budgets...to teach a class of 3 is not feasible...or it starts a slippery slope and precedents start...especially in these enrollment uncertainty times. It is unfortunate that a Grade 12 Math class is cancelled...one wonders if this school had other classes impacted..Chem, Bio..Physics ??? .ie on the Academic track....Grade 12 is an important and often required course, must be more to this..

PAC's as pole -vaults to politics...
Its probably a good grooming ground...One of our newer trustees was unheard of...got elected and became the Trustee Chair within a year...is this good???

If not mistaken NDP leader Carol James was a School Trustee too.

Re Ms Bonds move from critic of Gov't School Trustee to MLA and Cabinet Minister....It could be due to noted/observed talent..or remove a thorn in the side...simply recruited or applied as a marketable candidate .
However, the original passion is often reigned in and the political party line towed.

However, my observations show our Local Trustees, once they "graduate" from PAC... tend to be absorbed aka leashed by the School District staff. They end up towing the line of the " We need more $$$ aka Funding " . Rarely see any of them challenge the School District internally. If one really delves into it...they know better than to challenge the internal status quo if they have any higher political aspirations...ie City Hall....MLA...MP ????

Also...THE true HEAD dudes...usually the District Secretary - Treasurer...all seems to go through them. Superintendents are usually figureheads.

Just some observations from practical experience. Sadly...Often check ones' altruitic side at the door once one enters these arenas...even at the seminal PAC level.....or get eaten alive...

PS Just so its clear..I am not against the teachers...I have many relatives in the Public system. I just like to avoid the propoganda..it is inconsistent with what I actually see via experience .

Re Politics...and roots

In our City we have 5 out of the 9 in our City Council who are/were employed in the Public Service....4 in the Public School System...one in another Public sector field.

Interesting stat.

I notice this type of Non Private Sector presence in elected Gov't in other jurisdictions.

A conflict-of interest???...and where DO they find the time ???

One of them claimed they worked 70 hours as an elected member...the retort by another party was how were there own students in their full time job served...????

$30,000 a year for a part time job on council...plus a secure Public Sector job??? .....not bad..

Shortsummer, could I please respond to your post. I understand your position, but I do wonder exactly how deep your experience goes in the 'goings-on' of a school district. Mine has been more in-depth than I ever wanted it to be. I never knew there was a side to public education that wasn't readily available to ALL the public. I'm a parent of a special needs student. He's brilliant with behaviour problems. Classify him however you want.

'Stood in the shoes' - yup, had to do that 3 times since the public school staff couldn't figure out how to work with my child. I even had to give up a nicely paying job that paid ME to provide my knowledge, the public school system did not have anyone to compare. I have even have had to train those that are paid to work with him, while I remained unpaid.

'Owning a chainsaw etc' - well, we live in semi-rural B.C. (and been in rural B.C.) and have grown up with having to take care of ourselves. A chainsaw is a tool of that, but considering my husband works in the bush, I will definitely acknowledge that there are many that should never even touch one. The results aren't pretty.

'Behaviours, academics etc' - well, gosh, that is a large topic. On one hand, I'd like my child to behave better, but perhaps if he had a classroom with kids on his par, then perhaps HE would not be deemed the behaviour problem. The problem is, the 'regular' ed kids just don't have the where-with-all to keep up with him, and they are holding him back from reaching his potential.

Distance ed has become a great parking place for kids that don't fit neatly into the 'average' group. The training of those working with the kids has to be the centre of the discussion before we discuss whom should be pushed out into distributed learning.

Rural education has to be prepared to accommodate its learners. Online is definitely a possibility. The problem I'm trying to raise for discussion is that in even larger centres, it's used as a catch-all for those whom staff do not have any competencies to accommodate.

a-rose

Been there.

Youngest child has a bit of a learning disability.

However, as a consumer of the Public Education system...I don't have blind faith in anything...

UNfortunately, many do, defer to the experts who are " intelligent" but not often "smart" if you get my meaning.

Often like economists...10 economists 11 different opinions.

A.D.D. seems to be the shoe-horning of many edu-professionals ....all of us have .A.D.D...or dysfunctioality ..or _____________....to some degree don't we?

This blind faith creates time delay and spiralling vortex's and the parent and more importantly the child loses.

I am old school...we are all different...but I think in our own way we can find the way to achieve the main objective aka a good education ....I think the experts often end up as crutches, rightly or wrongly.

I have seen too many bail on the Public System...so called Public system defined "slow - learners" enrolling in Private Schools NOW on the honour roll....or home schooling...Also Private Tutoring abounds...

Schools have far more " resources " than when I was in school ... maybe thats the problem...false hope...caught in ever tangential loops ??? Much diagnosis "attempts" ...but actual relevant cures ???.

The only resources we had when I was in school was the teacher only..one's parents...and often ONESELF, ie the student taking the bull by the horns. I don't think that's changed much. Creates focus and independence..even more useful when one becomes an adult.

Just some thoughts comparing then and now , what's changed , and what hasn't...and solutions versus simply diagnosing problems.

Working Man wrote:

I used to have my IFA (an A ticket in fact), but I did not have total confidence in my practical abilities. The book work came easy to me, but I still wondered what it would be like to work on a live, squirming human being. Thankfully, I worked at a site that had a fairly low accident rate. I was good a diagnosing and monitoring injuries, but not particularly strong at treating them.

As for online education, there is a place for it, but it needs to be balanced with practical work and varied working conditions.

However, both teachers and politicians (esp. conservative ones) will need to put politics aside if online education is going to work. At the moment, both have agendas that are at odds.

The liberals and their corporate media sponsors talk about the declining enrollment numbers. Those numbers are extremely questionable. With the attack on Rural BC ie. changing the forest practices code to allow logging companies to close mills and export logs, and the reduction of government services and the like, along with the promotion of private schools it is not suprising to see the student numbers drop in Rural BC. In addition, according to research done by BCGEU, the number of private school students have increased from 3% to 10% in the last 25 years. Around 280 million dollars are spent on these students. With increase funding for private schools by the Liberal government, we can see this number continue to grow and conversely, number of students in the public system decline.