Soldiers on US Borders: What Could Go Wrong?
Start with the killing of Esequiel Hernandez Jr.
Hernandez, a Texas teenager, herded goats.
[Editor's note: U.S. President George W. Bush said on Monday night that he will order as many as 6,000 National Guard troops to help secure the U.S. border with Mexico. The last time the U.S. stationed troops along the Rio Grande, a Marine shot and killed a Texas teenager within sight of his home. When Esequiel Hernandez Jr. died in 1997, he became the first American killed at home by U.S. troops since the massacre at Kent State University in 1970. This is his story.]
On the day he died, Esequiel Hernandez Jr. took his goats to the river. He led them from their makeshift pens, past the ruins of a Spanish mission, through an abandoned U.S. Army post and down a stony bluff to the Rio Grande.
When he reached the crest of the bluff, Hernandez stopped. Behind him lay the mud-red adobe homes and melon-green alfalfa fields of Redford. Before him stretched the Chihuahuan desert, Texas' vast gravel backyard, speckled with squat greasewood bushes and whip-like ocotillo plants. Except for Hernandez, whose goats brought him here each afternoon, the residents of his little oasis rarely ventured into this no-man's land.
On this day, Hernandez spotted something shaggy moving in the desert. He'd lost a goat not long before. He suspected wild dogs had taken it. He couldn't afford to lose another goat. He raised his ancient .22-caliber rifle and aimed at the creature.
Twenty minutes later, Hernandez's 18-year-old body lay grotesquely twisted across a stone cistern. He died trying to protect his goats. He was killed by a 22-year-old Marine trying to protect America's youth from drugs.
On May 20, 1997, Esequiel Hernandez Jr. became the first civilian killed by U.S. troops since the student massacre at Kent State University in 1970. His death led to a temporary suspension of military patrols near the U.S.-Mexican border. And in August, the government paid his family $1.9 million to settle a wrongful death claim.
Cpl. Clemente Manuel Banuelos became the first U.S. Marine to kill a fellow citizen on U.S. soil. Four investigations and three grand juries probed the May 1997 shooting. Each concluded that because Banuelos followed orders, he was innocent of criminal wrongdoing. Those who issued the orders were never tried.
Both young men became casualties of the Pentagon's quixotic $1 billion-a-year war on drugs.
Unready Marines
The mission of Cpl. Banuelos' to Redford began with a request from the U.S. Border Patrol. In late 1996, the Border Patrol approached a little-known military unit called Joint Task Force Six (JTF-6) about conducting an "observation post" mission along the Rio Grande. The routine request was quickly approved. JTF-6 put out a call for military volunteers, and the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force signed on.
Marine Corps Capt. Lance McDaniel arrived at JTF-6's El Paso headquarters in February of 1997 to begin planning mission No. JT414-97A. Four observation posts -- or "holes," as the Marines called them -- were to be established overlooking the Rio Grande at places where illegal crossings were common. Four-man teams would take turns manning the holes. During the nights, they were to radio reports of any illegal activity to the Border Patrol. During the days, they were to conceal themselves in a "hide site" just down river.
McDaniel picked Banuelos to lead one of the teams. The assignment was a coup for Banuelos, who had been not much older than Hernandez when he joined the Corps. Banuelos matured noticeably during his three years in service, earning an achievement medal rarely awarded junior enlisted men. And in the spring of 1997, while still a corporal, he had been selected to lead an observation team at Redford. All the other team leaders were sergeants. If the mission went smoothly, Banuelos would soon be a sergeant, too.
But mission No. JT414-97A was not going smoothly. McDaniel's efforts to prepare his men were hamstrung by bureaucracy and 1st Division command's view of the mission as little more than a subsidized training exercise. That's the conclusion of an exhaustive Marine Corps report by retired Maj. Gen. John T. Coyne, from which many of the details of this story were drawn. In one striking example, McDaniel's men were pulled away from a training exercise in order to participate in a dress uniform review.
Friendly fire
As a result of this type of bureaucratic interference, Capt. McDaniel conducted only three days of training before his teams departed Camp Pendleton for Texas.
Banuelos' men -- known as "Team 7" -- were among the least prepared: Cpl. Roy Torrez Jr., Banuelos' second in command, hadn't received any field instruction since basic training; his main job in the Marine Corps was driving a tow truck. Lance Cpl. Ronald Wieler also had received no field training since basic; most of his preparation consisted of cutting rags and sewing his own camouflage "ghillie suit." And Lance Cpl. James Blood, the team's junior man, didn't even meet his teammates until they arrived in Texas.
Late one February afternoon while McDaniel and JTF-6 were planning the Redford mission, Border Patrol agents Johnny Urias and James DeMatteo were patrolling the Redford riverfront. Eight hours west of San Antonio and five hours east of El Paso, Redford is one of the most remote towns in the United States. The adobe-and-cinder-block village stands in the desert above the muddy red soil along the river, every inch of which is planted in alfalfa, melons, pumpkins and other crops. Culturally, the village of 100 souls is more Mexican than American. Spanish is the language of choice. The nearest shopping center is across the river in Ojinaga, Mexico.
While walking among the cottonwood trees by the river, agents Urias and DeMatteo heard gunshots. They climbed back into their truck and drove up the dusty lane to the two-lane blacktop that winds through Redford.
Before they reached the village, a beat-up truck approached them from behind. It flashed its headlights. The agents stopped. So did the white pickup. A boy hopped out and ran up to the Border Patrol vehicle.
"I'm sorry that I was shooting," the agents recalled the boy telling them. "I thought someone was doing something to my goats. I didn't know you were back there."
The tall, lanky teenager was Esequiel Hernandez Jr. Known as "Skeetch" or "Zeke" to his friends -- and simply as "Junior" to the adults in the village -- he was a popular kid who loved riding horses and dancing. A high school sophomore at age 18, the only visible indication of personal ambition was a large Marine Corps recruiting poster on the wall above his bed.
When he wasn't on horseback, Zeke helped tend the family's 43 goats. It was his chore to walk them to the river each afternoon. He usually took with him a World War I-era .22-caliber rifle his grandfather had given him. The old gun was mechanically unreliable, but straight shooting. This, too, he hung on the wall above his bed.
As the February sun crept behind the high, hard mountains, border agents Urias and DeMatteo studied the boy. No harm intended, they figured. No harm done.
Urias left the boy with a friendly warning. "Use more discretion when shooting your weapon," he later recalled telling Esequiel. "Especially at night."
Three days in the desert
Banuelos and his team were dropped off east of town late Saturday night, May 17. The Marines wore camouflage face paint and shaggy burlap "ghillie suits." They carried two five-gallon water cans, two radios and assorted gear. Each carried his own M-16A2 rifle.
Team 7 walked half a mile to the observation post. The team they were replacing was dehydrated and nauseous after its three-day tour. Banuelos, Torrez, Wieler and Blood settled into the stony bluff above the river. They saw two vehicles cross the river that night, and radioed the Border Patrol both times. As dawn came Sunday, Banuelos moved his men to the daytime hide site. The day passed slowly, punctuated by fitful naps.
The Marines had been warned to expect hostile drug smugglers. They were told that "the enemy" would employ armed lookouts. They were told that previous teams had taken fire. But no one told them about the goats -- or the boy who herded them.
The goats arrived in the afternoon. Dozens of them, scrabbling through the hide site, foraging among the greasewood bushes, hungrily eyeing the leaf-like ghillie suits.
Team 7 moved up to the observation post before sunset the next evening. The Marines reported several vehicles driving across the shallow river that night. But the Border Patrol only stopped one or two.
On Monday the desert became very hot. At mid-day, the surface temperature can reach 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Snakes stay in their burrows to avoid being cooked. The Marines had no burrows. They lay on hot stones, wrapped in their burlap suits. Each man had only three quarts of water per day. All they had to eat were fibrous goo bars called Meals Ready to Eat -- like Slim-Fast shakes without the liquid.
The goats returned in the afternoon. They stuffed their mouths with desert weeds. They gurgled as they drank deeply from the river.
By the second night, Team 7 had begun to realize that Redford was a heavily trafficked crossing, and that most of what was smuggled across wasn't drugs. Vehicles of every description arrived laden with tires, cement, furniture, produce and other contraband. Torrez and Blood griped about how rarely the Border Patrol responded to their calls.
"If they don't care," Blood recalled asking, "why do we need to be out here?"
Wrong place, wrong time
They didn't need to be there -- at least not in May.
A previous decade's worth of federal statistics proved it: More than 85 percent of all illegal drugs entering the United States arrived via official Ports of Entry monitored by the Customs Service. Most came concealed within legitimate cargo. Nearly all of the heroin, cocaine and methamphetamine shipped to the United States the year before Hernandez was killed flowed through official ports, according to federal estimates.
Marijuana was the exception. Half the weed consumed in the United States is grown domestically. Half of the rest comes across the Rio Grande at places like Redford. The Border Patrol was catching large loads crossing the river every fall. Marijuana is a seasonal crop; most of it gets harvested and shipped in the fall and winter -- not in May.
JTF-6 would have stopped more drugs from entering the country if its troops had been put to work searching the 3.5 million trucks rolling through the 39 customs checkpoints annually along the U.S.-Mexico border. But truckers were already complaining about the wait at customs. The corporations that hired them complained to Congress that more searches would undermine the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
Washington wants to stop the flow of drugs and immigrants, while increasing the flow of goods and services. The two objectives conflict. Putting troops in places such as Redford was a compromise. It allowed Congress to appear tough on drugs, while not hindering trade.
'Fire back'
Banuelos led his men out of the hide site early on the afternoon of May 20th, a departure from the mission plan. The Marines were hot, tired, hungry, dehydrated and still dressed like shrubs.
As they crept toward the evening post, Banuelos spotted a man on a horse on the Mexican side. The corporal put his team in a halt. Just then, Esequiel and his goats crested a small bluff. As usual, he was carrying the old rifle.
Banuelos whispered into his radio: "We have an armed individual, about 200 meters from us." A time-stamped recording of the radio traffic showed it was 6:05 p.m. "He's headed toward us. He's armed with a rifle. He appears to be in, uh, herding goats or something."
Hernandez saw something move in the brush at the bottom of the far ravine. He had bragged to friends and family members of what he would do if he ever spotted the wild dog he believed had taken his goat.
The goatherd may have fired once, as Banuelos and Blood claimed. (One spent shell was later found in the rifle.) Or he may have fired twice, as Torrez and Wieler recalled. Or he may not have fired at all, as the lack of gunpowder residue on his hands later suggested.
What is certain is that the four Marines believed they had been fired at by a drug smuggler.
Banuelos ordered his men face down on the hot gravel, then told them to "lock and load."
Hernandez stood on his toes. He peered across the desert. Torrez recalled the goatherd was "bobbing and weaving ... like when you look at something in the distance, you stand on your tippy-toes and try to move your head around to see."
At the operations center located 90 miles away in Marfa, Capt. McDaniel and his fellow officers immediately began debating what actions were authorized under the JTF-6 rules of engagement. But Banuelos knew nothing of this debate. At 6:11 p.m., he radioed: "As soon as he readies that rifle back down range, we are taking him."
Lance Cpl. James Steen, was manning the radio in Marfa. He replied: "Roger, fire back."
The command center exploded. McDaniel and the other officers believed Steen's authorization to "fire back" was wrong, according to written statements. Steen was pulled off the radio. A senior sergeant took the chair. But "fire back" was neither corrected nor withdrawn.
By this time, Banuelos and his team were atop a plateau about two football fields away from Hernandez. The Border Patrol had been dispatched, and Banuelos knew it. But for some reason, Banuelos kept moving his team closer.
The men slipped on the steep, loose gravel. Wieler didn't understand what Banuelos was doing. He said later that he "would have stayed and let the Border Patrol handle the situation." But he followed orders. The camouflaged Marines scurried forward one by one, crouching among the waist-high bushes.
At 6:27 p.m., Banuelos believed he saw the boy raise his old .22 and aim toward Blood. The corporal, an expert marksman, did not hesitate. He squeezed the trigger of his M-16A2. His bullet entered Esequiel Hernandez Jr. beneath his right arm. It fragmented and cut two trails through his chest, destroying every organ in its path.
Following orders
The Border Patrol arrived minutes later. Team 7 was driven back to Marfa, put in a motel room, given a six-pack of beer, and told to write statements. The story that emerged was that Banuelos was not "pursuing" Hernandez -- as specifically prohibited by the rules of engagement -- but was "paralleling" the goatherd out of fear that the boy was running a "flanking maneuver."
The Texas Rangers investigated the shooting. The Justice Department investigated the shooting. JTF-6 investigated the shooting. And the Marines investigated the shooting. All concluded that Banuelos followed orders.
A county grand jury refused to indict Banuelos on criminal charges. A federal grand jury refused to indict. And a second county grand jury, given substantially more evidence than the first, also refused to indict. All concluded the corporal had committed no crime.
Banuelos was under investigation for more than a year. But the orders that sent him to Redford in May, the orders that put him in the field with an under-prepared team, and the authorization to "fire back" -- these were never put on trial. By agreeing to pay the Hernandez family $1.9 million, the Navy and the Justice Department effectively closed the most viable legal route through which those decisions could have been questioned.
Human rights activists fear the settlement will clear a political path for JTF-6 to resume armed border patrols, which could lead to more deaths. In a response to the scathing Marine Corps report, Gen. C.W. Fulford Jr. lamented Team 7's lack of training, but noted that even the best trained Marines would have shot back.
"Indeed," Fulford wrote, "it is probable that a superbly trained team of infantrymen would have immediately returned fire."
Clemente Manuel Banuelos is no longer a member of the Marine Corps. His promising military career died the same day Hernandez did. The 23-year-old now struggles to support his young wife, Luz Contreras, in their modest Southern California home. He is looking for work.
Rounding up the goats
On the day Esequiel Hernandez Jr. died, his father brought the goats back from the river.
Hernandez Sr. was chopping wood when he saw the crowd of Border Patrol agents, sheriff deputies and other authorities gather on the hill across from his adobe home. He drove the old pickup over to see what was happening.
Not knowing who he was, a deputy sheriff asked whether Hernandez Sr. might be able to identify the victim. The old man stared curiously at the Marines, still dressed in their ghillie suits. The leather-faced father was then shown the lifeless body of his son. He wept, and wailed, in Spanish.
The sixth of eight children of Maria de la Luz and Esequiel Hernandez Sr. had been 18 years old for six days.
The Hernandez family was kept away from the scene that night. Pushed back by sheriff's deputies, sobbing family members shared their grief and anger within the privacy of the Hernandez rancheria.
Later, the old man went down to the river to round up the goats. Ten-year-old Noel went with him. After the goats were put away, Noel marched into Esequiel's bedroom and tore the recruiting poster from his dead brother's wall.
Monte Paulsen is a contributing editor to The Tyee.
This report was originally published in San Antonio Current in 1998 and was drawn from two months of interviews in Texas and Washington, D.C. Those interviewed included the Hernandez family and their Redford neighbors, as well as officials of Joint Task Force Six, the U.S. Marine Corps, the U.S. Border Patrol, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, congressional aides, drug policy experts, military policy experts, lawyers and reporters. Clemente Manuel Banuelos declined to be interviewed.
Many of the details described in this account come from official documents. These include statements and testimony collected by the Texas Rangers, the Justice Department and the Marine Corps. The facts presented in this story were either agreed upon by first-hand observers or were independently verified. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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hannibal
5 years ago
Comments on "Soldiers on US Borders: What Could Go Wrong?&q
How terribly sad.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Interesting.
The U.S. has a major problem with illegal immigration. I travel to Texas, Florida, Lousiana and Georgia often. The problem is pervasive and very, very noticeable.
My concern lies with wage suppression. There are millions of Americans who live near or below the poverty line, and as a result of this illegal immigration, wages for un-skilled workers is being supressed.
I hear the phrase "jobs Americans won't do" - they will do it, but not for $5/hour. If you remove all of the illegal immigration, wages for low-end jobs would see an immediate 50% increase.
The only people that benefit from illegal immigration are the wealthy business owners and the illegal immigrants themselves.
They estimate that there are over 4M illegal immigrants living in Texas AND California. That comprises over 10% of the workforce. These people are not entitled to live in America because they are honest and work hard.
There are countless numbers of societal issues that must be considered. I am very pro-immigration and would love to see our quotas increased. However, it must be controlled.
Currently, the illegal workers don't pay taxes and utlize countless numbers of social programs.
As for the article, very interesting. However, I would argue that the American military is as well trained as it has ever been. These guardsmen will have had several duties in Iraq already.
Something needs to be done, and I guarantee you Canadians would be outraged if our borders were breached.
BC Mary
5 years ago
Our borders have been breached. From within.
Just heard (May 18) that Bill 30 has been passed and is only awaiting royal assent to become law.
RickW
5 years ago
Maybe the troops Bush wants to post along the Mexican border would be better posted to Washington DC, where (with any luck) some of the useless people who will never find themselves exposed to the results of their follies might end up in the sights of some Marine "grunt".
As to your nonsensical comments, Captitalism, why do you want to chastise the people who would only be providing a service or a product? Why not chatise those who demand such products and services in the first place, if we find them so odious? So let's hang the Johns if we don't like protitution, and the users if we don't like the trade in drugs, and how about all those business people who would hire illegal immigrants merely because they have no choice but to work more cheaply?
In the best spirit of the free market, if we remove demand, supply would simply dry up. But as long a demand remains, SOMEONE will attempt to supply that demand. And, because we prefer bandaid "solutions", that give the appearance of doing something, the Esequiel Hernandez' of the world will continue to get shot...........
grub
5 years ago
Capitalism:
One of those rare times that I've read Capitalism and found myself nodding in agreement... occasionally.
hunter
5 years ago
Capitalism- So wages would rise by 50% if all illegal immigration ceased? Try telling that to the lieberals re their "training" wage. I also don't see Wally's World leading the way.
grub
5 years ago
RickW:
True. But the American problem starts from the fact that these laborers are "illegal". I'm in favor of opening up the borders completely if we're going to pretend that NAFTA constitutes "free trade". If so, let's do what Europe does; essentially (I know there are some minor deviations), if you have a Euro passport, you cross borders and work or go to school where you please. A great system!
But North America has not adopted such an enlightened approach, so "illegals" pose all sorts of problems. Who collects taxes? Who supplies the healthcare and education? etc.
James Burns
5 years ago
maybell aka Capitalism wrote:
That is exactly why people living along the US - Mexico border should be terrified. The shoot first, shoot second, and shoot some more attitude of US troops, particularly after tours in Iraq, will make life a lot more dangerous.
In addition, the US military has a long history of taking aggressive unsanctioned actions within Mexican territory. If leftist candidate Lopez Obrador looks set to win the Mexican national election in October (he currently trails slightly according to Mexican corporate media polls) we could see some more ominous behaviour on the part of the Bush Administration along that border (although that could very easily backfire).
Currently there is a huge corporate media propaganda push to defame Obrador, very much akin to the unsuccessful methods used by the media elite in Venezuela against Hugo Chavez. The propaganda appears to be working where the opinions of Mexican elites and the relatively small middle class are concerned. However, if Mexico does turn left, then all the largest nations of latin america will have leftist governments. Only Columbia (which is quite small in comparison to Mexico and Brazil) will be the remaining major base of American military power and economic policy in the region. If Mexico turns left, it will be very hard for the US to use its standard tactics of terrorism and CIA supported military coups to turn back the democratic tide in latin america, as the leftist governments appear to be increasingly inclined to help each other.
Interesting times...
Colin
5 years ago
If this was 500,000-1,000,000 illegal workers, this would be a controllable problem, but with over 12 million illegal aliens they really screwed. They also have a backlog of around 4 million legal immigrants applying to come in. If you declare an amnesty for the Illegals you are screwing they people that went through the hassle of applying.
They are going to have to grant some sort of amnesty at the same time tighten up the border, set up a proper guest worker program, build up the border patrol, hire more immigration staff and prosecute unscrupulous employers. The amnesty will happen, the border will be tightened up a bit, the rest will fall by the wayside and they will have same problem in a decade.
One issue about the amnesty is that many of the people that win the right to stay and apply for citizenship, will then apply to bring their family in, so if 3 million of them have family that they want to bring in, then you are looking at least another 5-12 million people immigrating (family being from 2-4 extra people) That will have significant effects on both the US and Mexico.
I read some the details of this deployment, it’s clear they don’t want a repeat of the incident above and most of the jobs will be mundane and the plan is to stay there till more border guards can be trained. It’s also clear that the “minuteman†protesters have embarrassed the US federal government into some sort of action into a area that they have been avoiding like the plague (likely not to anger the “Hispanic voteâ€)
BC Mary
5 years ago
Capitalism wrote: ... Something needs to be done, and I guarantee you Canadians would be outraged if our borders were breached.
Then I wrote:
Our borders have been breached. From within.
Just heard (May 18) that Bill 30 has been passed and is only awaiting royal assent to become law.
I dunno. Do[B ]you [/B]see any outrage?
Pssst. Wanna buy a river? Cheap?
Frank
5 years ago
I hear the phrase "jobs Americans won't do" - they will do it, but not for $5/hour. If you remove all of the illegal immigration, wages for low-end jobs would see an immediate 50% increase.
Geez Mabel Lake, we agree.
grub
5 years ago
Colin:
I think you're right; the current scenario cannot really continue. Notwithstanding the protestations of our right-wing friends, some levels of bureaucracy do actually help us maintain a civil society. A guest worker program might just work.
Bureaucracy and regulation ought to ensure workers' health and safety, the collection of taxes, and the provision of government services (health and education come immediately to mind). The employment of foreign workers ought not to be left to the hurly-burly of laissez-faire market economics; Mexican workers ought not to be traded and treated like so many sacks of beans. Any employer circumventing regulations regarding the employment of "illegals" ought to be severely punished.
As an aside, I can't figure out why average Americans are not furious with employers who use foreign, illegal labor, (1) because of the the way they exploit desperate workers with no legal option for recourse and (2) because they ought to be providing those jobs to the citizens of that community. There ought to be protests and pickets in front of these businesses every day until they stop these hiring practices.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Colin:
It sound like you are supporting Bush's plan. The one thing that really annoys me is that the illegal immigrants are slamming Bush.....WHEN HE IS ON THEIR SIDE!!!
Most Democrats and Republicans want them out entirely. He is trying to let most stay.
There are two groups that are sympathetic. The elitist left and the business right. You honestly have to be exposed to it, to recognize the problems.
I am all for supply and demand - however society's interest must come first! I have always believe that a controlled capitalistic society works best. Everybody should have a chance to participate in the economy and make an honest living, but also rewards those who take risks.
This is not happening in America, as the lower class is being left out. The rift between the rich and the poor is growing at an alarming rate and it is a direct result of illegal immigrants supressing wages.
As our countires grow economically, there is a need for immigrants. However, Canada does a very good job of managing the process. Immigrants come in, fill the necessary jobs and are ultimately given a chance to participate in our economy.
RickW - I chastise the businesses - I never chastised the people. God knows that if I were a Mexican, I would try and come to the USA too. First and foremost, they HAVE to start punishing the employers that allow this to happen.
James Burns - The Americans have a very well-trained army, and contrary to popular belief have been doing an excellent job in Iraq. Their military execution has been fine - the problems lie within trying to socially engineer the Iraqi people who are not used to democracy and have tribal differences.
These problems will not exist along the border.
James & RickW - what do you suggest the Americans do??? It is very evident that illegals will continue to cross their border without significant enforcement....
Should they just accept this??
grub
5 years ago
Frank:
Spooky, ain't it Frank? I was just as astounded as you about finding some common ground with Capitalism.
Capitalism
5 years ago
Grub:
They are - it is the useless politicians in America - why they need an third party.
The Republicans are pandering to business, the Democrats are pandering to their New England/San Francisco elitist base - while both are trying to woo the hispanic vote.
Like I said, I am in America several times a month. This is front page news every single day. They are furious and furious with their elected representatives for not acting.
grub
5 years ago
Capitalism:
You are right [the lower class is being left out. The rift between the rich and the poor is growing at an alarming rate] and partially wrong [a direct result of illegal immigrants suppressing wages].
The suppression of wages likely has more to do with anti-labor attitudes and legislation.
Your comment:
is about as enlightened as anything I've seen from you. You're absolutely correct. And part of that "control" ought to be a healthy labor movement. Unions are one sure way to control the excesses of capitalism with no reins on it.
On this topic: facilitate the certification of workplaces. You'll soon find the suppression of wages by illegal workers is no longer an issue. ALL workers will soon be getting decent wages and benefits.
grub
5 years ago
Capitalism on American protesting the use of illegal labor:
First, I'm truly spooked by all the common ground we're finding.
However, being furious at their elected reps doesn't cut it. Where's the direct action?
Where's the refusal to but X-brand oranges if you know they've been harvested by illegals?
Where's the pickets in front of Z-brand hotels for using illegals?
I'd be more impressed, and more likely to believe that Americans truly felt this was a problem, if they acted on their beliefs as opposed to responding to whatever was advantageous to their wallet (like buying X-brand oranges).
Capitalism
5 years ago
Grub:
With all due respect - your definition of control and mine are slightly different. I still think Canada can be less controlled.
Unions aren't a bad thing and employees are the crux of an organization. Corporations need to evolve their labour practices:
(1) Executives are getting paid too much now. It has gotten out of hand. As a result, there is a disconnect with the workers.
(2) Labour NEEDS to see itself as a partner of management, not an enemy. Your labour bosses are pig-headed, arrogant and confrontational. I would prefer to see a profit sharing arranagement, like the NEW NHL!!
So, when business is doing well - employees are rewarded for their hard work. When businesses come accross hard time - employees give back.
In our business, there are three owners and we have 16 employees. It is a very simple structure, but 40% of pay is through bonuses. The better we do, the more we pay.
In fact, they do such a great job that I have plenty of free time to write meaningless posts on this forum.
grub
5 years ago
Capitalism:
Oddly, I'm still finding little to disagree with you over.
Your characterization of labor leaders, however, verges on hyperbole I fear. And if, on occasion, you might be right, could it be that labor leaders adopt such behaviors to mirror what they see from corporate leaders? Instead of profit-sharing, allow me to propose German-style co-determination (let's have workers sit on corporate boards).
Capitalism
5 years ago
Grub - there is that one guy who isn't that bad....
I think his name is Barry O'Neill. I hear him on the radio the odd time, and he seems a little more pragmatic and solution-driven.
The rest of them led by General Sinclair are very counter-productive.
steerpike
5 years ago
Illegal immigrants in the states PAY TAXES.
They do not recieve any government services for the taxes they pay. Its taxation without representation.
The US economy has always been based on slavery, and this is just a slightly more palpable continuation of that.
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
This is a chilling article...
They shouldn't stick Marines on the border. The border should be for National Guardsmen.
But if the US can arm their border, its their choice, not ours. They have the right to protect their borders from people illegally entering. I used to live in Alameda, California. So many Mexicans working under the table jobs. If they wanna come, they should apply like everyone else.
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
) Executives are getting paid too much now. It has gotten out of hand. As a result, there is a disconnect with the workers.
Depends. If the shareholders are ok with the performance, who cares?
hannibal
5 years ago
I hear the phrase "jobs Americans won't do" - they will do it, but not for $5/hour. If you remove all of the illegal immigration, wages for low-end jobs would see an immediate 50% increase.
Great crackpot theory you have there Capitalism.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, and a hamburger would cost $12.00 and an order of fries $6.00 .
The prices of goods and services would quadruple in order to pay for this huge raise .
Yea, well thought out Capitalism.
All it would mean is that the illegals would be higher paid .
We have had guest workers in Canada forever and it works really well .
All the fruit erc. gets picked the Mexicans and others make good money during the season and then they return home for the winter .
Some farms have had the same crews for upwards of ten years .
It isn't only America that faces this dilemma but we are much more humane about dealing with it .
Capitalism
5 years ago
Hannibal:
What the U.S. has is not guest workers. We are not talking about a handful of workers picking grapes. We are talking about 10-15% of the workforce. This hannibal, you moron, is the working class.
Firstly, yes - I agree that the cost of goods would increase. Wine would be more expensive, hotel rooms would increase slightly, packaged meat would increase slightly.
However, this would force us to better our technology as opposed to relying on cheap labour. Secondly, the increase in the price of consumer goods would have more to do with the inflation caused by increased purchasing power of the lower class.
Even your left-wing loonies are agreeing with me here.
Hannibal - the Mexicans aren't returning home. I guess you haven't been to Texas or Los Angeles lately.
I agree - a controlled guest worker program is a good idea. That is what everybody is pushing for...
Give it up....you socialist whacko..
Capitalism
5 years ago
Tax Cutter:
Our small business can't be compared to the likes of Telus, and I agree that the purpose of commerce is to create shareholder value.
However, in our business, our employees are the key to us making money. We are a family, and as a result everybody wins.
Nobody wins when management and labour fight - there are inefficiencies everywhere and decreased productivity.
As for Executive Compensation - While I agree that Darren Entwistle has done a fabulous job of late with Telus - I personally bought shares at $8 - he is cashing out tens of millions of options.
billy pilgrim
5 years ago
most mexicans are more indigenous to north amercian than the bloated overweight pink skinned republicans who seem to resent anyone who needs to work for a living.
hannibal
5 years ago
Okay, Capitalist so now you are talking about re-tooling business's to fit this insane paradigm.
No way it'll never,ever happen .
The bosses know exactly where their labor comes from and calculate their bottom line thusly .
If they can get two or three illegals for the price of one Americano who are they going to hire?
Working class! are you even phuquing kidding me?Working class makes more than minimum wage oh geat economist .
They,the illegals, proved their point quite eloquently by shutiing down America for a day.
The US is too dependent upon their labor to remove them .
And you sir are a class'A' goon .
Thank God the neo-cons days are numbered in this country .
grub
5 years ago
Capitalism:
However, this would force us to better our technology as opposed to relying on cheap labour.
STOP! I can't stand agreeing with you this much!
And I'll add to your note: paying slightly more for hotel rooms or hamburgers is a small price to pay to ensure "living wages" for the people to work in these institutions.
hannibal
5 years ago
Don't make me laugh. The price of all commodities would rise substantially .Not just hotel rooms ?
Panakaged meat and hamburgers but everything .
All utilities,gasoline,groceries .
Name a product and the price would go up exponetntially .
Get a phuquing clue !
grub
5 years ago
hannibal:
Exponentially???!!!! Really??!!!!!
Well, how is it that prices in highly unionized (and highly taxed) Europe are not "exponentially" higher. A Big Mac will cost you more, but it won't bankrupt you. Cars might be more expensive; but not that much.
Bottom line, Europeans seem to be able to cope with paying most people -- even their guest workers -- living wages.
Who needs to get a clue?
Capitalism
5 years ago
I didn't mean by strict definition they are the working class. However, in the southwest states - they do a large portion of the un-skilled work.
As for shutting America down - ironically I was in Houston that week. They didn't shut-down a single thing that anybody really noticed. There were a few restaurants that were shut, and the odd store - which middle America don't shop at anyway. Wall Street was A-OK.
I agree that getting business to change is difficult - why do you think they are resisting it so much. They tried to start-up plants in Mexico as a result of NAFTA, but unlike Canada the product quality was crap - because their manufacturing skills were weak.
I also believe the economy functions best with a strong middle class.
And I'll add to your note: paying slightly more for hotel rooms or hamburgers is a small price to pay to ensure "living wages" for the people to work in these institutions.
I agree - I have nothing against the poor. I am willing to pay more in many circumstances. I simply don't believe the government is capable of running a popsicle stand - and I don't like politicians - they do things for votes and waste money.
I think we are all better off as a society if we reward risk and innovation, and leave our dollars in our own hands.
I would gladly pay the gas tax if I knew it was going to improving roads and/or public transportation - instead it is wasted on general programs.
Capitalism
5 years ago
hannibal -
Canada seems to be going fine without illegal immigration - I am sure the USA will be fine too..
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, and gas is $4.00 a litre .
So you raise the bottom wage to $8.00,now you have to pay your middle workers $10.00 to $12.00, and your upper earners up to $18.00 .
It is called "what the market will bear"
So now everyone is ,really,happy except that their rent doubled the price of a car went up to $50,000 on average and a house cost a half million on average and a bag of groceries is over $40.00
You still need to get a clue .
Minimum wage is considered a training wage not a living wage that is why most being paid the minimum are young people and students .
Been to Europe lately ?
Thought not .
They are in steep,steep difficulty .
hannibal
5 years ago
Okay , Capitalism we shall agree to disagree .
Agree about politicians 100% .
realist2
5 years ago
Please check of the Jon Stewart clip in the newsheadlines on the main page. More bush bashing at its finest. Once again the Americans are showing their distrust in their leadership. Maybe they are waking up to the realization that their precious unregulated capitalistic ideology is in fact destroying their country. Now if only Canadians would hear the same wake up call and act instead of hitting the snooze button.
grub
5 years ago
hannibal:
Hannibal, you'll need to explain to me how the Danes and the Finns, for example, do it then.
Your economic analysis holds only if wages constitute a significant portion of the cost of items. Do you really think it would matter much to the profitability of a mine whether miners were paid $18/hr or $36/hr? I know little to nothing about mining, but I'm guessing that difference would amount to dick-all at the end of the year compared to equipment, energy, etc. Hey all you loggers out there, how much of the price of a log reflects the labor that went into it? I'm guessing, not much. Again, showing my lack of knowledge, would it matter much if the logger made $50 or $75?
BTW, hannibal, $8 as a minimum wage is nuts! You can't live on $8/hr.
grub
5 years ago
hannibal:
Already you're operating from a faulty framework. I have no problem with a training wage; for perhaps 6 months for a retail clerk, up to 4-5 years for someone on an apprenticeship. However, once past the training period, jobs ought to pay a living wage. Where is it written that only young people and students should work as retail clerks or at MacDonalds?
It's that kind of stupid mindset that gets us retail outlets where the clerks -- generally hired out of high school -- haven't a clue about what they're selling. On the other hand, at places like Mountain Equipment Coop, where employees are valued, one gets valuable service and advice. MEC is a perfect example of what can be done with an enlightened view of employees and employment.
Coyote
5 years ago
Go here to cast your vote on the extension of Canada's Afghanistan Mission.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/
hannibal
5 years ago
It was only an example Grub .
I agree with the training.
I beleive apprentices start at two thirds of the journeyman wage untilt they graduate.
By the way minimum wage in Alberta is $6.90 .
Yea, and Mountian Coop of which I am a member pays a lot better than minimum wage they also receive a commision on items sold .
RickW
5 years ago
Capitalism:
That would mean stepping on both the Republicans and Democrats financial contributors.......
If there is a market for this labour, then let it be filled.
Last time I heard, there was a few tens of thousands of "illegals" in Toronto alone.........
mikev
5 years ago
Corporations have been/are being granted the rights of people by the courts. When it comes to "free" trade corporations have been granted vastly superior rights. A corporation can move it's operation to wherever labour is cheapest. Labour has no right to move to wherever labour is most valuable. Labour can "apply for the privelage". That's bass ackwards as far as I'm concerned. Every time I see jurisdictions furiously trying to outbid each other with tax breaks and incentives to lure a corporate operation I get sick to my stomach. And then when jurisdictions furiously try to outdo each other in the appearance of doing something about the "problem" of illegal immigration I get even sicker. Give me a break, as if the politicians want to screw their corporate buddies out of all that slave labour. Obviously Bush isn't going to eliminate illegal immigration. Why are so many people stupid enough to be happily surprised that he won't? Like all of a sudden he seems to be a nice guy?
What we need is for actual living breathing people to be treated better than these figments of our imaginations, these abstract organizational constructs, these far too powerful corporations. We need the difference between the two, and the balance between them, codified in law. It needs to be a crime to put the interests of an arbitrary measurement - monetary profit - above the the possibility of a decent life for all human beings. How's that for idealistic and naive?
hannibal
5 years ago
Think Nike or Converse or any of the other multi nationals that moved all their labor over seas .
Cheap,cheap labor with no local control laws.
They pay what they want .
I don't happen to beleive it is naieve at all .
grub
5 years ago
RickW:
Sure. but let's fill it the way jobs are normally filled. SIN, Workers Comp protection, EI, OAS, etc, etc.....
All these regulations are in place to protect workers, the workplace, employers, and the public. In the long-run, a free market in labor benefits no-one.
grub
5 years ago
hannibal: .
Jeez, can't be much in the way of commissions; there's never anyone breathing down my neck and I don't see sales people running to the till with me to assure that they get credit for their sale.
But on the issue of "a lot better than minimum wage" I rest my case.
Not only do you get excellent, knowledgeable service, you get above-average (nay, exemplary) quality products that are ethically manufactured with due consideration to environmental concerns. MEC shows that it's doable. No other retailer has an excuse for not doing it that way!
Gloomy
5 years ago
OK capitalism, finally you said something i can agree with.
It is amazing how you have an opinion on everything! do you ever stop to listen?
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, I know the new bio bags are a a great idea .
Trust me they are paid a commision on sales .
mikev
5 years ago
People here within BC are looked down on if they don't move to where there is work. Why the double standard?
There should be no free movement of capital without free movement of labour! No corporation should have any right that a human being doesn't have.
hannibal
5 years ago
Weird.Due to Halifax's municipal law MEC cannot use theri bio-bags .Go figure .
hannibal
5 years ago
should be their bio-bags .
grub
5 years ago
What's with Halifax?
hannibal
5 years ago
Don't know Grub. I'll look into it .
robj
5 years ago
Wrong. MEC floor staff are not paid commissions on sales. I worked at MEC head office for 7 years
rotlin
5 years ago
There's an interesting blog entry on the current crackdown on illegal immigration connecting the dots with a worsening economy:
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2006/05/why-now.html
Colin
5 years ago
RickW wrote:
To compare the magnitude of the problem, if we had the same problem it would be about 1 million illegals living and working in Canada. Every day thousands more make it in and less are tossed out or leave. With the way things are going in Mexico, it is likely the numbers will grow and they won’t want to go back.
Can’t remember what are immigration wait list is like right now, but I guess that ours would have to be 400,000 backlog to be similar to their 4 million backlogged.
IAMC
5 years ago
As a listener to both Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, the two most popular radio hosts in the US by far ( Air America not ) I have been listening to the debate on ILLEGAL immigrants for the last month. It's a hugely divisive issue. Liberals fighting Liberals and Conservative fighting Conservatives. It's not a left vs. right issue by any means.
Either side wants to make the first move.
Except President Bush, who bravely tried to open up a dialogue with his Address from the Oval Office last Monday.
The one common theme, both sides seem to be agreeing on is to seal the border and stop the bleeding.
It's against the law in the US to use the military to police their citizens. So I don't know about the above story.
I remember in Waco the Govt. ( Janet Reno, Bill Clinton ) had to go through great, yet unsuccessful, attempts to lie that they didn't use the military to slaughter The Branch Davidian members in that camp.
So it's not the first time this kind of Govt. heavy handed methods have been used.
It's a very interesting country that USA.
G West
5 years ago
I AM Clueless
So that's what happened to your brain. You lost it to Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Why am I not surprised.
Are you into drugs too?
IAMC
5 years ago
Who needs drugs to be tripping on the everyday events that we all experience.
Now are you going to follow me to the bathroom G East ?
immigrant
5 years ago
Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes truth. Works well enough for the Bushies.
Capitalism:
That's a complete lie. I know what i'm talking about. I spent over twenty years working with what you call "illegals" in California and Oregon. They use false social security numbers to work. Their taxes are withheld from their paychecks. At the end of the year, they can't get a refund like most Americans can (tax system works by withholding slightly more than necessary, thereby encouraging people to file for their refunds), since their social security numbers arent' real.
Illegal immigrants are completely ineligible for any kind of public social programs. Period.
Therefore they're putting in -- aside from their labour -- far more into the system than they're getting out. A proportion skewed far more radically than with "legal" Americans.
But politicians have learned to parrot the lies Capitalism does, and most of America -- and perhaps Canada -- believes it to be true.
Do you know that the second largest group of "illegal immigrants" in San Francisco -- right behind Latinos -- is.... the Irish? Gee, do you ever hear anyone complain about them? Does that have anything to do with the fact that they're white?
Scratch the surface of most anti-immigrant groups ("oh, we're only against illegal immigration") and you'll find funding by white supremists.
As to the quote by Tax Cutter 99:
Do you realize that the vast majority of Mexicans, and those from other poor countries, can't simply "apply like everyone else"?
That's right. U.S. immigration laws are skewed to favour the well-off. As are Canada's. I worked with hundreds of Mexicans who would have loved nothing more than to "apply like everyone else."
Let's say you're a poor farmer in Mexico, barely eking out a living with subsistence farming, even worse now that NAFTA has pulled the bottom out on your corn crop. Your kids have no hope of getting beyond sixth grade before they're forced to work in the fields just to feed the family. There's a rich country to the north, and you sacrifice everything to work your ass off, so your kids have a chance at an education. This makes you "illegal." Only because of the laws making your farming skills irrelevant to getting in legally, while giving rich investors
the red carpet treatment.
As to the fallacious comments about undocumented workers driving down wages, i think others here have responded eloquently.
hannibal
5 years ago
Okay,so they don't get a commision they are still paid higher than minimum wage which was the original arguement .
hannibal
5 years ago
Well robj maybe you can tell us the answer ss to why MCE is not allowed to use their bio-bags in Halifax ?
hannibal
5 years ago
I would be interested to know how many Latinos live outside the cash economy .Subsistance
Very interesting statistics Illegal .
The 'Irish' who would have ever thought that ?
Not having a common border and all .Fascinating.
And you are so right about the inherent racism in the system .
So the so-called illegals pay all that tax for a zero return.
No medical or anything? That sucks .
They have only one thing to offer and that is their labor for the most part .
The dream is El Norte (The north)and for many it becomes an ongoing nightmare .
It is a fluke of geography that the worlds richest nation is beside one of its poorest .
How can you blame these people for wanting a better life for them and their children ?
hannibal
5 years ago
Above was meant for Immigrant not Illegal.Sorry 'bout that.
G West
5 years ago
IAMC
posted: 7 Hours Ago
Rush Limbaugh apparently!
hannibal
5 years ago
ROTFLMAO . Too funny G. What a hypocrite that moron is . Kinda like the male version of Rachel Marsden(the night stalker)
Colin
5 years ago
Immigrant
You have only captured part of the illegal population in your statement, many also work only for cash either doing day work or for unscrupulous employers that don’t require any paperwork. This group does not pay anything to the government.
Any link to this Irish problem? The best figure I can find is a estimate of 250,000 and shrinking as the economy in Ireland improves. Also it appears that most entered the country legally and then stayed.
I guess they leave empty Guinness’s cans everywhere and babble poetically when drunk?
A vaguely similar thing happens here, one RCMP member I know told me of attending the roll over of a van full of East Indian farm workers, luckily no one had been seriously hurt, but they all had the same SIN number.
grub
5 years ago
immigrant:
Your entire post was interesting. In sum, all the more reason to put the onus on employers (subject to very severe penalties) to ensure complete documentation of every employee to ensure they have access to all the system's safeguards (workers compensation, employment insurance, pensions etc) that they clearly also ought to be paying into via taxes.
grub
5 years ago
Colin:
All I want to know is: Why is the farmer who hired these people still in business? Shut one or two of these farms down (and I do mean completely) for an entire season, for such breaches of employment standards regulations, and I think you'll solve the problem.
robj
5 years ago
This is true. MEC floor staff start at around $10 an hour.
I never knew that. I found on the mec.ca site that it's because of "municipal regulations" in Halifax.
Capitalism
5 years ago
G West:
I too am a Hannity fan!! Like Bush or not - he is trying here. He is trying to find a middle ground, but can't. The conservatives will only move if they get their border crackdown.
immigrant:
firstly - you are wrong - i know because many of our business partners in the South hire illegal workers. Some - who work as labourers for the large multi-nationals may be taxes. However, the vast majority are employed by small business under the table.
In America - they have birth-right citizenship. In Texas, over 50% of births are to illegal immigrants. They come to America, have a child (who is by default a citizen) and are entitled to free education. The school systems in the Southwest are overloaded with these people. Secondly, American hospitals cannot refuse patients - they have to treat a patient and need not show identification. They may not collect welfare, but we all know that health and education is expensive.
Secondly - even if they do work hard and want to make a better life - they are not entitled to live in America. We have worked very hard to maintain the fabric of our societies and the injusticies caused by illegal immigration do not reflect our values.
We are an inclusive society and this is causing irregularities.
I am very pro-immigration and would love to see our quotas increased. You are an ignorant, warped person if you think that I am some white supremecist. Give it up.
Finally Immigrant - what don't you understand about this - BUSH IS ON YOUR SIDE!!!!!
Colin
5 years ago
Well you can guess that the employer is a respected member of the local East Indian community who has made significant contributions to the temple and local politicians, so you will hear lots of accusation of racism, etc, etc
Until recently the leaders of the Indo-Canadian have been studiously ignoring the subject of farm workers.
G West
5 years ago
Bush is simply trying to keep the stone that's gathering momentum from crushing his base in the elections this fall. If some small amount of good comes out of it for the slaves upon which much of the good life in the US is based that's not a bad thing.
I'm not surprised you'd like Hannity.
Colin
5 years ago
Here is a link that discusses those "related costs"
http://soapbox22.blogspot.com/2006/05/spin-cycle-polaris-and-cp-news.html
Colin
5 years ago
Sorry, wrong thread, please ignore
grub
5 years ago
Colin:
It's a sad, strange, old story: successive waves of immigrants (legal and illegal) consistently screw their own. East Indians. Chinese. Irish. Italian. Portuguese. And on and on...
Given what we know of this history, it always tends to rub me the wrong way (an immigrant myself) when the finger for such behaviors is most often pointed first at "whites" or the established elite (of whom I'm also no great fan).
hannibal
5 years ago
Grub: I think you are misiing the point .
Employers love so-called 'Illegals' precisely because they have no documents .
There was a huge raid in Ohio yesterday on a construction business and they had eighty or so undocumented workers .
What is the answer ?
Capitalism
5 years ago
G West:
I agree that Bush is obviously concerned about his approval rating - which Canadians believe is tied to Iraq - however, I believe it is tied to his failure to deal with this issue.
Colin
5 years ago
I think this issue has been a failure of every US administration for a long time, but Bush looks bad for promoting Homeland security, while ignoring this issue in public. Even if they started to today to secure the border, document people already in the country, amnesty etc. It will still take a decade to bring the problem to manageable levels.
immigrant
5 years ago
Capitalism,
I'm not sure if you're saying your business partners are unscrupulous, or if they only fall into the "large multinationals" category. I've worked with thousands of immigrants, probably over half of them undocumented, for over twenty years in California and Oregon, and have many close associates all over the country, including the South and Southwest. I can assure you that a tiny fraction -- maybe two or three in a hundred -- work under the table. Why should they, when there's a thriving black market in phony green cards in every corner of the US? These workers navigated the treacherous journey into the US, and they're not stupid; they'll be exploited only to the extent they must be, and not more.
Are you suggesting that restuarant owners, construction contractors, factory owners, farm labour contractors pay the bulk of their employees under the table? If so, you have no first-hand experience of the reality in the US.
There's a tiny fraction of workers who temporarily do the "day labour" you describe. Usually it's to save up money for that false green card.
Where do you get your 50% statistic regarding Texas births? Probably from an anti-immigrant website. If you notice, I never implied you were racist. But follow the money funding these groups, and you'll find some pretty scary people.
If the school systems in the Southwest are "overloaded" with "these people," why are enrollments decreasing all over the US, including the Southwest?
More propaganda, with no basis in fact.
You have a rather generous delusion about American health care. Hospitals turn away thousands for no insurance and inability to pay. It is only in life-threatening emergencies that they're obligated to provide care.
So I suppose undocumented workers might occasionally use public services, if their lives are in grave danger. Must be quite a draw. In any case, it's a very small bite compared with the vast amount they contribute to the public trough. Even former Fed chair Alan Greenspan has commented favourably on numerous occasions about how immigrants, even undocumented ones, are propping up public funding and especially -- considering their relative youth -- the social security system.
When you talk about threats to "our values" and "the fabric of our societies," where is the threat? Someone who violates a civil law to work hard, pay taxes and support a family? Go to one of those websites and you'll often hear about threats -- to the gene pool.
Please don't for a moment suggest that dubya is on my side, or that of immmigrants. His handlers know that the Latino vote was the key which got him elected, and they're pragmatic. Yes, Bush isn't Tom Tancredo, and that's good. Tancredo leads the group of idealogical Republicans who -- reflecting the sentiments in those websites again -- don't care about the political realities that Bushco does. I'm avidly watching the legislative events around immigration going on right now in Washington, but despite all the rhetoric it looks very bad for immigration there. We'll see.
Finally, getting back to the original theme of this article, here are two links to see just how competent are the guys from Border Patrol, never mind the National Guard:
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/14613584.htm
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA051906.1B.migrantdeath.21d53321.html
grub
5 years ago
hannibal:
No. I totally get the point.
That's why it is incumbent upon the gov't to impose huge (I mean really HUGE) fine on any employer caught with so much as one undocumented employee on the premises.
What does it take to get documentation, upon hiring? Not much.
hannibal
5 years ago
High robj:
Thanks for that.Yea, I was on the website but there was no explanation other than it was a Halifax bylaw .
Seems awful foolish to me .
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
G West, you seem like a pretty bright guy, is there any reason for your backhanded, condescending comments to those who think differently or disagree with you (ie: i'm not surprisd you like Hannity, etc)?
I think immigration is so important, in fact, we can learn a lot from many South and East Asian families in BC. The way they take care of their elderly, the way they assist their children, and the way the entire family stays together is something I admire. I also admire the hard working attitude and the entrepreneurial spirit exhibited by many Mexicans when I was in Cali. They work cheap...but man do they work hard. I say bring 'em and let 'em work. Its good for business. But you need a mechanism where these people who come in, do so legally, not in trunks of cars or running across the border. The border must be secure. Perhaps a mechanism for allowing workers to defect after a certain amount of time is in order.
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
Hannibal for many the dream ain't "El Norte" its "Reconquista."
58 percent of the Mexicans surveyed—agree with the statement, "The territory of the United States' Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico." Only 28 percent disagree and 14 percent aren't sure.
IN parts of the Southwest only Spanish is spoken. In others, federal enforcement of immigration laws is not allowed. In all of them, Mexicans remain Mexicans while Americans are pushed out.
Plus the Mexican govt. doesn't care. They view mass emigration to El Norte as a good way to get rid of people for whom their own economy and society can't provide as well as the advance team of what can only be called colonization. Put more precisely, the Mexican government isn't worried about mass emigration because in its eyes, the Mexicans aren't really leaving Mexico anyway. They're just establishing new provinces.
hannibal
5 years ago
Yea, and for people further south like Nicaragua it is El Norte .
Don't forget it is not only Mexicans entering the US .
And for them it is El Norte .
hannibal
5 years ago
Guatamala,Panama,Columbia,Nicaragua,Paraguay,Ecquador
Guyana,Bolivia to name a few all have people in search of a better life up North .
Not to mention Belize and others .
No, the problem is far from being limited to Mexico .
robj
5 years ago
Yeah, it certainly does. I'll email the store manager and ask her what the stupid bylaw is.
Here's a little background on how MEC decided on the bags. One of the MEC staff who works in the Order centre put all the info together, got the backing of the senior management and presented it at the AGM last year. Members voted on it (myself included) and it passed.
The look on Charlie's face when it happened was pretty cool. Here's a regular employee having a major impact on company policy and the enviroment.
One year later it was rolled out. As part of the bio bag program, if you decline a bag(s) for your transaction, MEC donates $.05 per to Enviro groups. Thousands per month are being raised because of this.
immigrant
5 years ago
Tax Cutter,
Just as the US has tried many times, even into the 20th century, to invade and colonize Canada, it did so as well to Mexico. Only it succeeded there. Most of the Southwest, from Texas stretching up into Northern California, was stolen from Mexico in the late 1800's. No treaties, no deals, simply theft. The land had been settled (yes, stolen from Aboriginals) by Mexicans centuries before whites moved in. As many are fond of saying, "we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us."
IAMC
5 years ago
The South American lean to the left is understandable. They haven't been able to figure out how we do it.
They will never be able to invent anything , as this is a an a American virtue.
Where would anyone be without American inventions ?
America is the Sun , and we all rotate around it.
These South American leftists will fade in the long run.
grub
5 years ago
tax cutter 99:
Man! Are you gullible!
I'm going to be very careful not to sound racist; this is simply my observations I'm reporting here. I've drawn my conclusions. You draw yours.
I've been at the airport on many occasions and have witnessed the arrival of planes from India. Often, a large percentage of the people deplaning are elderly East Indians. They come laden with possessions. So many possessions, it seems, that they're clearly not just coming for a visit. They're here to stay.
These elderly immigrants will, very soon, be a burden on our medical system. IMHO, we should only accept youthful immigrants. What value are these elderly immigrants to Canada?
So, please, spare me the "how they look after their elderly"! You mean how we look after their elderly!
hannibal
5 years ago
That's Kool Rob.
Thanks .I am going to have to pay more attention in the future .
Great idea ! Well executed .
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
From the experience of my neighbours and clinets, and my mother who is an administrator in a nursing home, these families have a terrible stigma in their culture in placing their elderly in nursing homes and such. And their elderly never "retire" in the sense that they will work in a family business or will take care of grandchildren so their kids can work. SO they'r not really a strain on society. They take of each other, and never rely on outside help...keep it in the family. How many east asian or oriental homeless people have you seen? Most of them look...well like me, caucasian and Canadian raised.
RickW
5 years ago
IAMC:
Great joke! Got more?
Of course, if you are being anywhere close to serious, then America is then a Black Hole, around which everything rotates..until it gets sucked in.
Alcibiades
5 years ago
Anyone considering engaging in a conversation with Tax Cutter 99 would be well advised, prior to doing so, to take a few moments and learn exactly what kind of a sociopath this individual actually is. The best way to do this, without exposing oneself to over much of the poison he spouts, is to take a few moments to look at his postings over the past few days on the Mommy's Helper thread.
For my part, I will ignore his venom and lack of basic humanity, he is both evil and dangerous.
RickW
5 years ago
Either that......or a few shots of tequila!! Then the most mordacious narcissism goes down smooooooooth........
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
I don't think America is the "Sun" We rotate around, but it sure is important in the world. I think that's why we're all so concerned with its policies, both on the left and the right. How America act is crucial.
grub
5 years ago
tax cutter 99 on Asian immigrant:
This terrible stigma: is it a good thing. Or is it a good thing that some Euro-cultures place value on community and having the community help each family take care of their elderly? Are nursing homes inherently bad? Isn't it quite civilized and humane that some Euro societies and cultures recognize that families cannot always provide the best care (in spite of the absolute best of intentions)?
Isn't fantastic that some societies value peoples' life contributions so much, that they allow them to retire and thus relieve them of having to work in the family business (like the majority of people even have a "family business" to work in!!).
I'll not be so quick to condemn what people have worked hard to establish in our society.
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
Grub, I think there is something to admire in the fact that these people keep their families together.
I agree with that, but that usually happens if the children don't intend on taking care of their parents. In some of these cultures (and i hope someone with an asian/south asian background can back this white boy up on this) the children know (or 1 child) that this is their responsibility...so when they're making decisions in life (career, where to live, etc) they do this not only in the context of taking care of their children and others but of their parents as well.
I don't think nursing homes are bad..they're important. My grandma was in one on the advice of a doctor. But I think many of our elderly are seen as an inconvenience in our society. We see caring for them as a "burden." Furthermore, we feel they have little to contribute to our busy home lives.
Sometimes they may want to stay with a child...why? First of all they get home cooked meals, and the interpersonal communication with their kin. They get to see their grandchildren, and thus their legacy. They get to feel like they're still a part of something. And the values they have are still good for our children. In other words...we're able to give them almost as much as they gave us.
Nursing homes should be there when its necessary. But i'd like to see our society take care of our elderly more. I'll stop now because this has nothing to do with this article...except that we can learn fom some of these immigrants.
G West
5 years ago
Well that's good TC, I'm glad you've decided to stop posting because one certainly can't learn anything from you but hatred and invective.
woody
5 years ago
G West talk about trailer trash,sh!t they wrote the book just for you.
Tax Cutter 99
5 years ago
I didn't stop posting...I stopped writing that paragraph. And G West, no one can learn anything from you they can't learn from readin the Communist Manifesto.
freebc
5 years ago
"Many of the details described in this account come from official documents"
For all that has been said on this issue, did anyone happen to nitoce this little tag at the end of the 'story'?
It's a disclaimer that says everything contained in it are either not documented, or not true.
Yes we all feel bad for the family of a young innocent shooting a gun near a border where illegals cross in droves. Who wouldn't?
However, perhaps they should put signs up in Spanish and English, facing both ways warning of impending death if you try to come across illegally. Sounds like war, smells like war, must be war.
If anyone has listened to the people who live near the border in the US, they are having a hell of a time trying to protect their stuff from these illegals.
One young fellow, regardless of devastation to the family was an accident. But where is all of the criers when a policeman in a city accidentally shoots a child that happens to be in the wrong spot at the wrong time? Same deal...
immigrant
5 years ago
Freebc,
Jeez, if you're going to make things up you might be a bit more careful. All anyone has to do is to scroll up, look at what you call a "disclaimer," and see that you've made up utter nonsense. It says nothing of the sort.
Sorry to disappoint you, but the vast majority of people living on the border -- in polls taken by major, neutral polling firms -- object to the militarization of the border. Many of these folks provide humanitarian assistance to people crossing illegally. Drives the border patrol crazy. I know. I've spent time on the border. I've never heard reports of theivery going on; people are intent on getting over the line, that's all.
I get just as upset when anyone is shot or killed needlessly, for any reason, by a cop, soldier, private person (smiling crazy person running over a family with kids today, for example). All senseless.
G West
5 years ago
immigrant
Well put!
immigrant
5 years ago
For an example of border dwellers' attitude toward militarization, check out the City of El Paso's response:
http://bibdaily.com/pdfs/060524%20EP%20resolution.pdf
hannibal
5 years ago
Bravo! El Paso . Finally a thinking mans city .