Perhaps the government will use it's new 'Apology Act' to good effect.

tcahill took the thoughts right out of my head, but if I recall correctly, the Campbell gov't sold those at bankruptcy rates - in a likely immature attempt to further spite the NDP. It seems the gods are angry at ferrying people this year - either I've become more sensitive to the news, or there have been a more than usual ferry sinking incidences recently.
The one thing I'm sure many may disagree with me with - is the sour taste in my mouth of the couple who has launched a class-action law suit against the ferry operators for losing their memorabilia. Considering all, I think the fact that they were fortunate enough to have a crew competent enough to save their lives, and that crap happens, it just seems ridiculously small minded and opportunistic. But, heh, that is what capitalism is all about...

tcahill,

The fat-cats would not have been useable on the northern routes as what is needed is 'open-water' capable vessels.

The fat-cats were designed to allow them to use the terminals in Horseshoe Bay and elsewhere in the system. This made their lower deck too low to handle the rough open water that vessels face in the ocean between the Charlottes and Rupert. Many marine engineers also commented, at the time of the design announcements, that these design specs were not in keeping with sound Marine Engineering practices and that the top rated speed would be lower since the inter-hull wake would have nowhere to go under the lower center hull space.

Clark & Co ignored these warnings and Admiral Glenn got his navy.

When dealing with naval construction projects the timelines need to be in 20-30 years and planning over that timeframe must continue. This has never happened in BC Ferries as it has always been mucked about by the political masters of the day.

For Avennica I am not surprised at all with the lawsuit as the announcement by Hahn and the TSB that the 'investigation' would take 2 or more years = they are trying to 'run out' the clock of statute of limitations so that they would not have to face these sorts of charges. Good on the passengers for having the intestinal fortitude to challenge the system into getting answers quickly and stop the messing around with meaningless delays. Delays that allow witnesses to 'forget' (or die), allow evidence to decay (or get lost), allow public awareness to fade (or just get lost in the news detritus of the day).

Campbell & Co. sold the FastCats below their scrap value, they would have done better on ebay.

Take away the heavy and problematic bow doors, convert the upper car deck to staterooms and presto, boats for the inside passage!

What is probably needed is a Spirit class sized vessel, with many staterooms, that would make several stops at local villages along the way. Able to carry truck and container traffic,the service would be a winner in maintaining good intercoastal communications and a tourist draw.

Avicenna
Assume you've seen bob the cat's post to Rafe's 'cruise' story. There may be more to this than meets the eye if there's anything that.
Nothing the Campbells do would surprise me - certainly expect them to find some way to try and shift the blame though.
Apparently a criminal investigation has begun.
Cheers

should be 'to' that in 2nd sentence above - it's early - sigh! sorry

The RCMP have started a criminal investigation.

Ed.

Murdock

There was an expert( can`t remember his name) on C.B.C. yesterday who contradicted everything you have just said about the fastcats. The interviewer jokingly proposed borrowing back a fast ferry to fill the gap on that run ..and the expert/author replied that actually they had been considered originally for that particular run...they are well suited for those waters..Grenville and Douglas Channels are hardly "open-water"..though the fastcat has no problem with "openwater". They would require modifications to the loading doors.
He added that there would be no way politically that the boats would be allowed to prove their worth. Don`t know where you`re getting your ferry facts but I`d check `em out .

One of the 'real' problem of the FastCats were those huge and extremely heavy bow doors (the Black Ball Line Coho has no bow doors unlike her sister ships the Queen of Sydney and the Queen of Tsawwassen); get rid of those and add staterooms to the upper car deck and viola, a ferry for the inside passage. Not perfect but they could be up and running in a few months. Politcally it will never happen.

Even if not usable on the Northern route, the FastCats would have allowed juggling of vessels to help fill the void.

It's widely reported, today, that the RCMP have started a criminal investigation into the sinking.

I suggest that WHILE THEY'RE AT IT, or at the immediate conclusion, a look at the disposal of three near-new vessels at fire-sale prices, to a company that worked on the vessels, by a government appearing to have a too-cozy attachment to that company would, in my opinion, also be worthy of investigation.

once again you lefties are living in denial. no one wanted the fastcats. NO ONE! they're practically obsolete. face the truth: the fastcats were quite simply a gift to the shipbuilding unions by glennocchio. when the original board of trustees first showed skepticism of the project clark fired them all and replaced them with ndp hacks who bleated blindly until the end of the project. quit revising history.

Thats small comfort Ed..the journalist who first exposed the Mulroney/German airbus scandal was on radio recently saying she had no faith in the R.C.M.P. investigating new evidence with the scandal as they don`t have the chops anymore for real investigative work...they`re a political organization now.

bob

Elliot...the fastcats are coming baaaack

then we`re going to expropriate your house...

In my neighborhood, there is a guy who is completely useless. He couldn't get a job to save his soul. The only job he has had was as a welder of aluminum on the fast cat's ferry construction.
To think this guy had anything to do with their construction is frightening. It was obviously a welfare project.
Thank God we are now building the new ferries offshore. This Province is incapable, because of the influence of the left, of doing anything efficiently.
Now, I know that Germany is a socialist country, but they do know how to build things.
The best thing the BC Liberals did was to semi privatise the BC Ferry Corp. or we would be subject to the the mindless wining displayed above.

Elliot,

The high speed catamaran is far from untried technology and is used all over the world.

On my last trip to Jersey C.I. I took the conventional vessel from Weymouth. The trip was punishment. I was most happy to pay a little more for the return trip on a large aluminum, high speed catamaran. That trip was pleasurable.

B.C.'s FastCat project was, in my opinion, sabotaged. In the eyes of its opponents, its success would have been too much of a positive legacy for the NDP.

This sabotage was, I believe, aided by a compliant media that, in this case, appeared to hold the taxpayer in contempt - the same media that was gung-ho for the assault on Iraq.

bring it on bob.

I agree skeptikool, part of the failure of the fastcats has to be attributed to the media - if only the Canada Line, the Olympics, etc., would be held to such scrutiny. The success of this "doomed to fail" campaign is totally typified by IAMC and his simplistic addition of the great socialist conspiracy manifesto. Your neighbour is completely useless eh? Kind of like your string of logic (or lack thereof)!

This discussion is proof positive that the Left still hasn't matured from their ruinous 10 years running this province, so they're still arguing that the fast-cats were the right choice.

How ironic that diverting the funds required to build them were the main reasons why the northern ferries were not replaced in the 1990's. (Of course a Leftie will never admit that -- they think all you need to do is print more money).

But all this talk of replacing old ferries probably is moot anyway. When you have a captain not on the bridge, and two incompetent crew members at the helm who drive the ship at 19 knots into an island, any vessel would sink regardless of its age.

Yesterday on CKNW, Bill Good had someone on (I forget his name but, it would be in their audio vaults, he was on around 9 am) , who spoke to the construction of the Fast Cats.

He was quite knowledgeable about the industry, he claimed in terms of construction and performance, the ships were world class vessels -- despite the cost over-runs and tacky interior.

He was not associated with the making of the Fast Cats so there was no a bias there (at least on the surface). I think we need to put all the baggage around these ships aside, and if they can be of some use to the Northern routes.

ooops, last line should read "and see if they can be of some use..."

Our fast cat are to my knowledge not rated for “green water” impacts on the centre deck structure. The Incats use a completely different design that does not allow the use of a bow door and the car deck is in a horseshoe shape, comparing them to the fastcat is like apples and oranges.

Each design choice on a vessel comes with a price, you gain one thing (fast cats can unload and reload faster than any other fast ferry) and you lose another (limited sea-keeping)

The fastcat program as I stated before was a gamble to create a niche in the globally competitive ship building market, it was a gamble, it should have been marketed as such, but the whole program was mucked up by politics and both the NDP and the Liberals can share the blame for that.

Using the fast Cats on other routes to free up another ferry might work, but the only ships that come close would be the Spirit class and I think they would have to avoid sailing in anything less than 35kts of wind. Hecate Straits is shallow and nasty also.

Anyone who has been around Cape Caution in 60kts breeze that’s been blowing for a few days will tell you what a nasty place it can be. The North Coast is a hard place for vessels.

One of my big concerns about building the new ferries offshore is that our marine ship building/repairing industry here needs the influx in new builds to be able to invest in large capital acquisitions in order to remain competitive in the global market. Our yards have an excellent reputation for doing ship repairs on time and on budget with quality work. But unless they can get big enough contract to enable the purchase or upgrade of their infrastructure they are doomed. The Liberals have very little stake in the ship building and marine industry, and have paid little attention to the issues.

One possibility is the BC Ferries could possibly put on the M.V. Aurora a small pocket cruise ship that was rebuilt at Allied not so long ago to maintain the non-vehicular tourist traffic and carry commercial by barge and tug.

Martin
It is normally for the Mate to take the late night watch and the Captain to do the daylight and situations where weather, traffic or visibility was an issue.

Question. How does a ship hit an island and sink in 400 metres of water?

Those damm islands wer moving it's a plot by Bush/Harper gang!!!! Likely it was sunk by one of the Subs leaving the Super secert sub based located under Gill Island.

Think of the inside passage as a mountain range with flooded valleys. The channels in many areas are narrow and deep valleys: there isn't a gradual slope into the water. My dad has a number of charts showing the inside passage in detail, including notes on known wrecks since the arrival of Europeans on the West Coast.

I like Colin's answer! I sail in Indian Arm and understand topograpghy as it applies underwater. I just don't see an island with the same profile of a long passage or channel. You will find some slope and more often than not reefs. What I'd really like is some details of the ships course. Was it a glancing blow that ripped a hole as it went by? Or is this just more media crap, sounds better if they can say the ship ran into an island. More likely it ran over a reef. Why must the media torture us so?

Colin: So much for the super secret sub base now, blabbermouth.

Gerhardius

It would appear that where they hit was almost a straight beeline from the south end of Grenville Channel to the North side of Gill Island. From what I hear they was two “clangs. Crunches” when she hit. I heard also the sub reporting the Starboard wheel and shaft is gone, which if true would lead me to believe (pure speculation at this point) that the propeller hit first, tearing it off and pulling the shaft out, then the ship would veer to starboard onto more rocks, possibly slicing open several compartments, in which case it is unlikely that even a modern ship would stay afloat with a open shaft hole, and several compartment open to the sea. It would be a sort of worst case scenario. The fact that the ship remained afloat as long as it did could be attributed to the sizes of the openings, whether the shaft tunnel was watertight, etc. she might have even been perched on the rock that gutted her and then slide off as she worked or as compartments filled. I remind you that this is all pure speculation based on rumour and media reports, it is difficult to determine which is more accurate.

Club
Sorry about the sub base, I promise not talk about Coyote’s secret distillery making Scotch inside of Britanna Mines, Arrgh, Duh!!!!

Speaking of Coyote I haven’t seen any posts from him lately, must be making a new batch.

Coyote is down in the big smoke for three or four days - no doubt he'll be watching this space so if there's anything missing from the cache when he gets back he'll be onto you Colin. Cheers.

Hmmmm as far as the north coast go's this is about as big of disaster as you could imagine,going from 6 sailings to the Haida Gwaii to only 2 will only cover local island needs never mind the other 4 boat loads of tourists that will be missed.Theres lots of options in the world for the short term till proper boats are built http://www.maritimesales.com/RYA13.htm
but I get the sense the powers that be, will waste a lot of time and money trying to save money and save their own butts, and the only people who suffer are the coastal communities.Seems par for the course looking at recent BC history

The link above seemed pretty old after another look but their is still a heck of a lot of boats out there for sale for the short term will work fine http://www.ship-sales-int.com/

That show on CBC radio yesterday afternoon was a DISGRACE!!!
It was so lame that I jotted down notes to write an editorial letter including:
-sick to my stomach
-listened to cynically orchestrated line-up of gordon campbell apologists
-deflecting blame for the queen of the north to thge NDP fastcats
-a transparent attempt to mitigate fall-out/blame/legal liability and public perception
-a prevebtable accident in which two people needlessly died
-retired ferry executive had warned provincial liberals just weeks before the accident

I tell you what gordo...why don't you use my notes and write the letter yourself!!

p.s.- law means never having to pay when you're sorry

Incompetence, plain and simple!
Just like anywhere else in this part of the world, the shit floats to the top!
The master of any vessel is ultimately responsible!
If he allowed stupid people on the bridge he should be shot!
There was a time that the captain would go down with his ship, to be sure that everything possible was done!
Here, i guess he is looking for his pension and a golden handshake?

Campbell & Hahn had the ship scuttled, in order to discredit and weaken the unions, so Washington Marine Group could bring their $20 million bargain privatized fast ferries to the rescue, proving once and for all that PPP's work in this province (with a little help from their friends....)!

Gloomy intones:

What? You mean like the Canadian Navy?

Colin,

Thank you for the clairification of why the fat-cats cannot be used in these waters.

The 'original' design was openwater rated, but it was the direction from the, then NDP, Provincial Government that the design be changed to allow the cats to use the current berths (as this was cheaper than building a specific berth that only the fat-cats could use). The modified design meant that the ships would be of little or NO VALUE to other fast-ferry using companies, thus the scrap value of the ships since BC Ferries did not use them.

Stop thinking about resurecting the fat-cats. Better would be to look to the horizon now and start a real construction program, then use barges to 'fill' the gaps in cargo and encourage as many small operators as possible to carry passengers whenever possible (maybe even 'subsidizing' these passenger runs).

The Mediterranean cruise industry has been going to bigger vessels and I am willing to bet that an older (15-18 years) vessel can be found to fill the gap in the meantime.

Oh and for the information of those not noticing these things 'E' Division of RCMP are investigating the missing persons.

The RCMP are not, criminally, investigating the sinking other than it was the reason for the persons to 'go missing'.

Maybe the queens cowboys are to busy concentrating on to how get Betty Krawczyk back behind jail bars, much simpler to track down a 71-year-old grandmother, than find out why a ship running full tilt, runs into an island that’s probably as large or larger than Lulu Island (Richmond),has left 2 dead, persons cherished belongings or otherwise on the bottom of the sea, some survivors their emotions forever damaged. Remember though the Mounties always get their man,err woman.

Survivor spearheads fund to provide rescue boat for Hartley Bay

Maurice Bridge, CanWest News Service
Published: Friday, March 31, 2006

VANCOUVER -- One of 99 survivors of last week's sinking of the B.C. ferry Queen of the North has established a trust fund to provide a rescue boat for the community of Hartley Bay.

Graham Clarke said he was deeply impressed by the rescue efforts that followed the disaster, particularly the help from Hartley Bay, a First Nations community that assisted survivors of the sinking. Two people are missing and presumed dead in the disaster, which took place in Wright Sound south of Prince Rupert.

As a way of expressing his gratitude, Clarke announced Thursday the creation of the Hartley Bay Rescue Trust with CanWest Global, publisher of the Vancouver Sun and the Times Colonist. His contribution to the fund will be any money he makes from the photographs he took during the disaster.

Proceeds from the fund will go to the Hartley Bay Coast Guard Auxiliary, likely for a fully equipped rescue boat, equipment and training.

Clarke said he was struck by the way people in the lifeboats, on board the coast guard ship Sir Wilfrid Laurier and on the dock at Hartley Bay helped each other, giving whatever was needed in the frightening hours after the ferry sank. The actions of the Hartley Bay residents in particular impressed him.

Donations to the fund can be made to the Hartley Bay Rescue Trust at any HSBC Bank Canada branch in British Columbia.

what a lot of speculative drivel...suggest all you posters with your usual obvious agendas crawl back into your political holes where your ignorance of this subject matter is not so glaring.

I was out of the country for most of the Fast Cat fiasco, but despite paying attention to the issue since my return, I'm no closer to the 'truth' of these ships. The rhetoric and heat, and the conflicting testimony of experts have ensured that the truth has been deep sixed. For me, the controversy has just confirmed why polarized politics are not in the public interest.

There are few places in the world with the geographic challenges we face, and I'd like to think that would dispose us toward a competitive advantage in Maritime Industry.

My father worked on the refit of the Love Boat some time ago, and still talks about how the local shipyards were able to turn that ship around ahead of time and under budget.

As a veteran of the Free Trade Wars, I remain convinced of the need for a national strategy, such as MITI used to such great effect in Japan. Locally, I am sure that a government that got behind the best engineering and skills available could resurrect and maintain a profitable, high value added specialized shipbuilding industry here in this province. The example I'd cite is Bombardier's.

'Campbell & Hahn had the ship scuttled, in order to discredit and weaken the unions, so Washington Marine Group could bring their $20 million bargain privatized fast ferries to the rescue, proving once and for all that PPP's work in this province (with a little help from their friends....)!'
very good rick; the sad thing is that some of these lefty freaks will believe it. is nana still here?

Rick, you are right on the mark with your comments. But you forgot George Bush had the ship sunk so the Washington State Ferries could take over the route, and do so without The BC Ferries Union. Privatized finally, totally.
What insight you have.

"Graham Clarke was aboard the Queen of the North the night she sank near Hartley Bay. Clarke, a Vancouver businessman who is also chairman of the Vancouver Airport Authority, was on an inspection visit aboard the Queen of the North on behalf of a company looking at taking over the route from BC Ferries.

He was visiting the area on behalf of his company Western Pacific Marine, having been invited by B.C. Ferries as part of the Alternate Service Providers requirements of the Coastal Ferries Act. Clarke is a proponent for the bidding process to supply and operate routes 10, 11, 26 and 40. The Queen of the North sailed routes 10 and 11. Clarke is the chairman of Vancouver Airport Authority and a governor of the Vancouver Board of Trade".

Again, the rescue boat may be a good idea but watch out for intended distractions from the real issues here in order to avoid the costs, both human and monetary, of having to address those issues.... which are environmental damage to the coastline and to the livelihood of First Nations because of the oil spill, increasing privatization of our ferry system, and safety and maintenance concerns on BC Ferries because there is little freedom of information surrounding this corporation that is made accessible to the public anymore.

In BC we now have trains going off the track, their hazardous material seriously putting the life of our streams at risk, a tragic ferry sinking, lives lost and jeopardized... leaving behind a deadly and ugly oil spill, and the safety conditions for loggers in our woods deteriorating badly...

A distressing picture of what was once "beautiful BC" is now being painted over by the reckless brush strokes of de-regulation, privatization, and foreign ownership.

the sky is falling, the sky is falling. Lynn, relax an enjoy the scenery, and remember, if it moves, privatize it.

The left simply can't grasp the reality that Glen Clark shot the NDP in the head with the fast ferries. Some are so deluded as to think a right wing media conspiracy sunk them while the fact is Clark and his cronies had plenty of time to plan and build and run them properly. Instead, Clark built ships unsuitable for BC waters; ask enough marine engineers and the flaws and shortcomings are evident. Instead, I read a parade of left wing, blind Glen Clark supporters who refuse to lay any blame at this despotic and incompetent man's doorstep. Glen Clark hurt many lives in this province with his economic disaster forcing many to move to Alberta just fo find decent work in the 90s. I know many NDP and union members who despised his thuggish, bully tactics. I'm only surprised his union cronies didn't give him a job, but there really aren't many friends in that business I suppose.

Clark used the fast ferries as a banquet for his union friends. He, not the Liberals or the media, went way over budget and spent $450 mio and squandered shipbuilding resources that could have been used on building better ferries to replace the Queen of the North. That's why the NDP doesn't castigate the Liberals too hard in the legislature- there's plenty of blame to go around for both parties and the ignorant and sanctimonious will quickly be reminded of their sins.

And the left has the temerity to attack the Liberals for selling the fast cats at a $20 mio? BC Ferries isn't in the ship broking business and it was a waste of taxpayers money to keep them around. Legally and from an accounting point of view, the fast cats had no place in the fleet or if it did more money needed to be spent- that is the definition of scrap value. Not that they were scrap, but they were economically useless for BC Ferries. That there was a buyer for them at $60 mio is irrelevant. Instead of wondering what happened to a notional $40 mio, the left should attack the guy that wasted $450 mio in the first place. Not only is the fool and his money soon parted, but the fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place.

The NDP and BC's ardently hopeful left have alot to learn before they can be trusted by the people. They need to ensure that no more Glen Clarks can happen any more. Because it was his moronic vision and vicious abuse of authority that led us to this problem.

I heard the captain was not on the bridge. A 4th class first mate and a woman transferred in from catering where in charge of the ship. Both inexperienced. The catering woman is now in a psych ward because of the horror of the accident. Have not had this confirmed by media but my soure is pretty good. If true, then BC Ferry will have a lot to answer for. I am grateful the crew did an excellent job in saving the passengers and themselves. And much sympathy for the man and woman who died.

I share your feelings aalborg. The crew should be commended. Over the years, there has been many a dark stormy night that we have arrived safely home because of them.

The conspiracy theorists are lining up already are they ?

The ferry systems have worked very well for a long time,when i lived on the island there was never a problem with the service that could not be rectified.I also remember the peoblems that were manufactured with the fastcats and they could have been RECTIFIED,but there was no will by the government of the day.(liberals)

THE BLAME is on all who let the service decline and small wonder the bridge was badly staffed,i sure as hell wouldn't want to work on those old tubs and i moved over to the mainland out of safety concerns over the vessels/ferries.

BobbyPeru ... you write a steady stream of abuse against the B.C. Opposition ... and you offer nothing, not a thing, that is constructive or helpful.

Partisan political opinion shows up at its ugliest, in a discussion about a lost ferry, environmental damage, and what it all means for the future. So, what's your suggestion for BC Ferries?

I agree with the person who said that partisan politics do not serve the public interest. There are too many times (and this is one of them) when all of us should pull together to resolve the problem of the Queen of the North slowly emitting 200,000 litres of diesel fuel into Wright Sound.

tcahill cites this example:

Bad example, that company has had its collective hands into Canadian federal coffers with 'donation' kickbacks to political parties since the 1960's.

This situation of graft, or business welfare to some peoples eyes, is not what I would call an ideal.

for thomas49;

No conspiracy theories, just a notion that the BC Ferries were used to take money in the 1970's and early 80's. Then it was finally given some money and permission to put together some new boats thru the mid-80's to the early 90's. These long-term plans were scuttled by the new NDP government of Harcourt. The planners at BC Ferries were told to start again. More contracts were tendered and now some big union shipyards started to pull their political clout and the 'aluminum' specialty construction plan was put into action. The idea was sound, the execution was nuts. Moreover the older ferries were pushed down on the list so that funds for the new projects could be made available. Needed C-Class replacements were cancelled, northern route boats and small run berths on the central coast and Vancouver Island suddenly had to find their own sources of funding. At the time, these decisions would not make any problem. This is because shipbuilding and fleet maintennace has a 20-30 year planning timeline. Now we are getting into that timeline.

Ships like the Queen of the North were on the replacement drawing boards of the mid 80's, had the planners at BC Ferries been left to their own devices and not forced to divert money to other projects, like the useless and highly experimental fat-cats, then the Queen of the North would have been replaced 5 years ago and the C-Class ferries would be rolling out (probably from BC shipyards) even now.

As it is the BC shipbuilding industry has some bad reputation to live down (not deserved but that is the reality), BC Ferries is in a desperate cash crunch (due to foolishly spent $$$ in the 90's), and the safety of all passengers starts to be called into doubt.

None of this was envisioned by the Clark Government, for sure. However a large number of safety minded BC Ferries employees had left the company in the late 90's because of what they saw. The lack of parts going into the 2001 season saw the Ferries engineers ready to go wildcatting all summer long. WCB concerns about the exhaust leaks into lower spaces on a number of vessels was the only reason the engineers suddenly started getting what was needed. All of these problems, delays, tactics of evasion of answers are brought about by one reason and one reason only = NO MONEY.

The empty coffers can be laid at the lap of the Socreds (in the 70's using BC Ferries as a cash cow), the NDP (in the 90's trying to use BC Ferries to kick-start a new industry - rather than simply providing new money for the experiment and leaving BC Ferries to work on conventional boats that were needed) and now the Liberals (in the 2K's breaking up the planning and operational elements of the corporation and pushing for 'efficiency').

For those of us living in coastal or Island communities it is time to realize that the 'privatization' move is inevitable. The only question will be how will the change come about? Suddenly, as I think the Northern Route will be, now that the ferry is at the bottom of the ocean. Or more gradually due to smaller routes switching from BC Ferries corporation hands to private operators.

Ultimately expect the cost of crossing to go up and go up really fast in some cases.

BobbyPeru,

And what exactly do you believe was in it for Glen Clark to build, allegedly, unusable passenger vessels? He was spooked into taking them out of service but had no hand in the sale of them.

Much of the design change that, reportedly, made the vessels unsuitable was incorporated by the buyers of those vessels, it has been stated.

Perhaps those marine engineers you speak of, who in this case drew up the plans,
were in fact bricklayers. The only other alternatives that occur, in what turned into a sweetheart of a deal for the buyer, are incredible incompetence or criminal conspiracy.

Hold it. This is all very nice, but - Isn't the main problem here that a ferry, new, old, whatever, sailing on a route with which its crew were (or at least should have been) very familiar, suddenly and for undetermined reasons had its bottom torn out and sank?

All of this other stuff is old news: Fighting old battles that don't have much to do with the current incident. Even if the fast cats hadn't been a failure, even if some of the northern routes had had more attention paid to them, I fail to see how that changes the fundamental question at issue. Why did this ferry sink?

It seems to me that indulging in alternate history is diverting, but not very edifying under the circumstances. David Hahn's obvious discomfiture and the Premier’s reflexive fall back on the old mantra of 'blame the NDP' are, in my opinion, indications that something else about the management and operation of the 'privatized' corporation is involved (perhaps in addition to human error or equipment anomalies). Perhaps there's something else there, which might provide some answers - certainly, that's the area where the hard questions need to be asked, in my opinion.

G West,
The point you raised on being diverted in our history discussion is well taken. Nonetheless, going to the subject title, a big part of the tollreferred to is being suddenly, for many B.C.ers, without the vessel that regularly serviced their needs.

It seems most natural that thought should be given to returning those FastCats to service in this emergency situation - if the new owners would be agreeable.

Such use would be an embarrassment to this government that sold them, true. "Safeguards" against such use may even have been attached to the deal.

I must admit that I am amazed that so many of the usual trolls are (or act like) marine architects, marine engineers, shipbuilders and mariners. Partly I'm surprised that they haven't all moved to Germany, so that they could ply their trade. But I guess they are like the 101st One-handed Keyboarders Battalion in the US who strongly support the war in Iraq, as long as they don't have to be personally involved.

I'm no expert on ship design, but have done a lot of sailing, kayaking and traveling on vessels on the North Coast. I crossed the Hecate Strait more than once, before B.C. Ferries even serviced the Charlottes, on the old Northland Prince, a ship under Norwegian flag with a Norse crew that served the Port Hardy, Prince Rupert and Haida Gwaii triangle on a weekly basis at the time. Since it was a ship, not a ferry, if you were taking your car, you handed it over to a longhoreman who drove it into a cage which a crane then loaded onto the boat.

I now reside in the Kootenays and like the North Coast, it is an area that the government, especially this one, prefers to treat with non-benign neglect, except for sharing in the booty from our resources be they timber,minerals, hydro-power or fish.

At least WAC Bennett realized, unlike the current scoundrels, that the wealth of this province was created in the "hurtland" and not on Howe Street. He believed in creating infrastructure which both improved the lives of the locals and access to the wealth creating resources.

I know one of the biggest problems of the Fast Cats was the wakes they produced, which then damaged real estate almost invariably owned by the elite, Gordo's true base. Thus they couldn't really operate at their designed speed on such populated routes as Nanaimo-Horseshore Bay. Obviously this wouldn't be a problem on the Inside Passage, North Vancouver Island or the Hecate Strait. But like some posters pointed out above, even if they were the best solution in the universe it would never happen due to politics. Gordo's gang would never allow one of their biggest clubs to beat the NDP with become useful.

Most people, perhaps due to too much of a diet of Can-West canned messages from the Lieberals and the Fraser Institue, seem to ignore the fact that however much the Fast Cats cost, most of the money stayed in BC. Even such a rabid free-enterpriser as Willy Wooden Shoes can grasp that simple fact. Only a bunch of radical neo-con greed mongers as Gordo's cabal could bring Vander Zalm to the point of marching in protest with a (shudder) Union.
.....cont

elliot replied to feline bob with:

elliot must be the only person alive who would quote the (P)resident non-savant seriously, proving that even the brain dead are technically alive.

.
I agree tcahill, one would certainly think so. Does anyone find it somewhat ironic that the Queen of the North was the only (or one of the only) vessel in the BC Ferries fleet not built in BC? I'm not saying that it sank because it was built in Germany, but I can't help but find it somewhat ironic.
lynn said:

Unfortunately IAMC, all the stuff lynn mentioned is true (factual, if you know that word). Don't you find it somewhat disheartening that as many or more men are dying in the woods annually as 3 decades ago with only a third or less of the number of men actually working in the woods. But to free enterprisers that is balanced out by an increase in productivity.
BoobyPeru said (among other things):

Glen Clark must not be as useless as you think, Jimmy Pattison isn't known for making bad business decisions, and it's not like Glen gives him any access to government.

On the other hand the $450 million (what the hell is a mio?) wasn't wasted, the bulk of it was spent and taxed in BC, (see Vander Zalm etc. above). On the other hand if someone offered me $60 million for my guitar, I don't think I would be a good business man if I said, no thanks, this guy over here wants to give me $20 million. That's especially true if the guitar was bought with someone else's money and the proceeds from the sale were going into their bank account.

The free enterprisers creed:
"Privatize Profits, Socialize Costs"

I join with lynn, aalborg and all the others who expressed their sympathy for the couple who were apparently lost with the ship and my heartfelt gratitude and admiration to the crew
and residents of Hartley Bay who kept the loss of life as low as it was.

Murdock,your points are valid.As i said ,when the fastcats were fabricated,politics also fabricated more problems.

That is why a half dozen families i know ,moved off the island.The fear of being held hostage every time we wanted to use the ferries.It all started with assured sailings,letting those with the cash bribe the system into letting them on first ,even when they came last.THE FERRY SYSTEM IS PART OF THE HIGHWAY SYSTEM.Playing favourites with them that have cash to burn is the typical sell our rights out the window formula.Now look at the recent cossing hikes and as you said,it is only the beginning.And we haven't even started on the safety issues,yet we must pay to roll the dice and see if we get to the other side.
No way will i be held hostage on Vancouver Island and have to pay El Gordos friends to get on and off.Then again nothing ever comes out of the politicians pockets when they get on those ferries.

THE ONLY WAY THE KAMPBELL KLAN KNOWS HOW TO RECTIFY THE PROBLEM IS BY SELLING IT,ALONG WITH OUR RIGHTS.

I was wondering about 'mio' too. All good points
rkewen.

I still think there's something 'off' about this sinking. Whether it was inexperienced personnel, experimental navigational equipment, the involvment of 'marketing' geniuses or management misbehviour is difficult to tell. Something, in my opinion, is clearly being covered up. David Hahn's unusual solicitousness for his employees is only one indications among others. Attention should be focused on the incident while avoiding the diversionary tactics of the Premier and others.

G West:

I'm with you on what you've said as well. Somethings not right. Human error, but why? Lynn's facts lead to some possibly ugly conspiracies beyond the usual sellout policies of Campbell without public consultation. Knowing that Campbell was privatizing BC Ferries without telling the province to begin with, at least, that's my take on it, is a head shaker to begin with. Its not a surprize, but there's no public consultation here, with a public service going private and along with it, so do toll price controls. As usual. Like Teresen.

Everyone is going to lose on this one, and I couldn't agree more with Lynn's conclusions, once again. Hats off as well to the residents of Hartley Bay for minimizing what could have been a much greater tragedy than it was.

Well I'm getting flac over in the Nanny story for my reference to bombardier above, and I responded there http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/03/28/GlobalNanny/?tyee_message=Comment+added%21#post61798
when I should have responded here.

Murdock and Alcibiades have both tasked me for ignoring Bombardier's record of corporate behavior. Fair enough. I'm not an expert on Bombardier's behavior, but I am a fan of their products. That doesn't excuse corruption (such as has been alleged or proven to have occured), and I won't make excuses for it. Corruption must be dealt with, but I'd would much rather be proud of a Canadian success story than lament another of our industries shut down, stillborn, or captured by foreign ownership.

I believe (taking faith here, not fact) that Canadian industry can compete without corruption. I do insist that our nation and industry can benefit fairly from a close partnership with our government. All of our foreign competition benefits from partnership with their host governments. It seems sometimes that our BC government would rather partner with foreign corporations than our own.

Whew!

Did I write that? Hum, the unreformed Canadian Nationalist still lurks inside me. I'm suprised because I have been thinking more like a Global Federalist than the nationalist of any one nation for more than a decade now.

Right at the beginning of this disaster David Hahn kept repeating that the ferry was staffed to MOT standards. He kept saying this because he knows this is a minimum standard. Now two people on the bridge of a fast boat in these coastal waters is ludicrous. I wonder how many people are on the bridge of a cruise ship? The union has always fought the low staffing levels on the ferries and now it has come home to roost. But I am sure it was a calculated risk, and now I hope those that made the calculated risk sleep soundly.

It is mentioned that there was new navigation equipment installed. How much training was given? If it is anything like the outfit I work for, next to no training on new equipment.

Now here is how all this ferry fiasco, I believe relates to the Camplympics. There is 600 million being spent on a highway to nowhere and one billion on a skytrain extension that is not needed, wrong location. The northern ferry replacement program got put on the backburner so that new shiny ferries could be built for the Camplympics and no money left. I say ditch the plan for the new southern ferries for now, put the fastcats into service, at reduced speed where needed, and build the northern seagoing ferries.

For you people that believe free enterprise is the answer to all, since the ferries have a toll, put a toll on all highways especially the highway to nowwhere.

I guess if FOI should apply to BC Ferry Corp., it should also apply to Air Canada, Greyhound, Westjet and all other entities that transport people, and we should be able to access their safety records as well ?
tcahill says that everything Lynn said was right so I guess we should.
Lynn also is fretting about the effect the oil slick will have on the livelihood of the local native population. Which of course will be nothing.
The sky is not falling, it's just life, that's all.

IAMC
Once again you type two paragraphs without making a single relevant point of your own.

I did? Was I sleepwalking?

Sorry tcahill, I was eferring to rkewen. I get confused by all these weird names.

follow up to Alcibiades post in the Nanny story:
Alcibiades wrote:

Bombardier doesn't work as any kind of positive example for you. Fine. It works for me.

You don't see a positive role for government in the private sector, excluding, surely, regulation and law enforcement. I assume you do see a positive role for government in the public sector. I further assume that is because you see more potential benefit and less potential abuse where the profit motive is absent. Again, Fine. We disagree.

Still have sand in my ears.... what's FOI? (he says hoping he's not asking a really silly question)

Tcahill

Bombardier is certainly not my favorite company, they got the contract to build the Iltis and the 2 ½ ton for the army. They took two proven designs and mucked them both up badly.

Although they have sold their skytrain system to Japan and Malaysia, it still is not a great design for the money, to be fair, neither are the contenders as most governments seem to heavily subsidize these types of sales. Their jets do have a decent reputation, but I sure wouldn’t buy a car from them again.

A car? Really. They made cars? Wouldn't that be a collector's item, or do you mean they OEM'ed for a car brand?

tcahill
Examples please? Where the profit motive, and corruption hasn't more than wiped out the potential benefit.

The government has a well defined regulatory role, on that we have no argument. But, historically, the potential for business and corporate interests to use the public trough for their own interests before any considerations for the public are addressed is phenomenal and the bad habits of a government playing to the advantages of their friends in the private sector (beginning with the CPR) are legion in this country’s history.

Occasionally, I think a government-operated company competing in the private sector, like Petro Canada, for example, could be a useful device to control the tendency toward monopolistic behavior in the private market. It's notable that when such a company - despite its generally well-run record - starts to interfere with private entitlements to monopolistic sectoral profit returns (or is perceived to have the potential to do so) - that demands for its privatization are never far behind.

Governments also have, in my opinion, a valid role in operating companies in the area of public good – cases where the service provided is a necessary precondition to the kind of equity and equality of opportunity that I think all Canadians, thankfully, believe in – but never for a profit.

Furthermore, much of the bad effect of focusing always on profits and returns to investors could be ameliorated if the federal government had the intestinal fortitude to codify changes to the tax laws of this country that were suggested, but never adopted during the Trudeau years: I think it was called the Benson report.

But that, as they say, is another subject.

Anyway, (In his most obtuse voice) I'm picking up a very subtle hint of discouragement. If Bombardier doesn't (ugh!) float your boat, are there any examples of Canadian Manufacturers that other's might agree would support my argument that we ought to encourage and stimulate local manufacturing -- of Ferry boats? Or should we all just resume hewing wood and drawing water?

Alcibiades:

I admit right off the top that government/corporate partnerships have a HUGE potential/history for/of corruption, but, we do agree on regulation.

My examples are from other times and places. The Japanese MITI/conglamorates example is most powerful, followed by the Korean Chaebols. The US Military Industrial Complex and it's civilian offshoots. The tight links between the PRC's bureacracy and it's nacent industrial might. You might detect some residue of excess? in my suggestions, but I see a link between economic development, international competitiveness, and the interlinkage of Public/Private affairs.

No body said it was easy.

Murdock
I think the “original design” you are quoting is the design used by Incat for their open water fast cats. The problem with those boats is the length of time it takes to load and unload. They are designed for routes much longer than ours, where loading and unloading is less of a factor. I haven’t read up on them for awhile, but I remember that they have to strap down all of the vehicles in them, very time consuming also.

As I said before, the Fastcat were an attempt to break into a niche market that looked like it could be worth a lot of money to anyone that could produce these vessels. It was clear that we cannot compete in the bulker/tanker market so we had to specialize. I think the gamble was worth it, as it made use of our strengths. I criticize both the NDP and Liberals for screwing with the program. I also think that BC Ferries should have been allowed to continue on it’s normal build program at the same time.

When you look at the history of fast ferries around the world, you will see that most designs have had major problems and only Incat has been successful in selling theirs. Although our designs were meant for this coast, if the ferries had been a success it would have opened up a big market for us. Frankly I don’t think they ever got the chance to prove whether they were a failure or a success.

Aalborg
You suggest that the Captain stays on the bridge for the entire trip, the Captain will be a zombie ¾ the way through. It is the Captains responsibility to ensure his deck officers are competent to run the ship and that correct bridge watch procedures are followed. It is the first mates responsibility to see that the crew is responsible to run the ship and to arrange the watch. Not sure what setup they use, my ships were 6 on, 6 off and 12 on, 12 off.

Willy
Raises a good point. Training is the key to the safe operation of the vessel. This is where the management of BC ferries gets drawn in. did they provide adequate training to the ships crew? Did they provide or allow for adequate training for the deck officers to use the equipment provided. For years management of shipping companies hid behind the Captain’s ultimate responsibility. The admiralty courts have now begun to make the directors responsible for factors directly affecting the safety of the ship and leading to the incident.

As for people thinking that this was done on purpose, you need medication.

People that bring up WAC Bennett decision to buy up Blackball and create BC Ferries make a good point, he certainly was a raving communist and did it at a time when doing such things was considered “Red”

Also talking about using Coastal freighter again. Personally I love them, but with the reduced population on the coast, the economics don’t really work. I think the last two left are the Lady Rose and the Uchuck on the Island and a couple of self propelled barges working the coast. The last “freighter working the Central coast was the Tyee Princess” I don’t think anyone else doing it anymore. Used to watch it unload at Namu.

Ode for a edit button: WACky was not a communist, just in case people didn't already know, sorry

tcahill
I take it you noticed in the press yesterday that China has managed to place dead last on the international register of how well countries deliver health care to their citizens. Analyzing China's economic development and competitiveness without addressing the command structure that reigns over the relative rates of currency exchange between that country and the United States is a mugs game. I'll accept China as an example of almost nothing except cronyism and greed and utter disregard for the welfare of its citizens.

Tcahill
I am all in favour of having the ferries built here even if it cost a bit more. Also would like to see some specility vehicle being built here.

Another horror story, the 5/4 ton replacements built for the army in Kelowna (I believe) took another proven design and mucked them up again. I wish the government would drag some of the contractors over the coals, but then how the government tenders a contract can be half the problem. The army is forced to do tactical moves with trucks that have brakes that squeal so bad they can be heard for miles.

Alcibiades: Didn't catch that news item, but I'm no fan of the PRC government.

(Doing Captain Kirk) Must! -- Limit! -- Discussion! -- To! -- Relevant! -- Aspects! Beam! -- Me! -- Up!

Whoosh. I'm talking about local industrial economic strategy. You can find the whole world in a tea cup, but that is a different conversation.

No disrespect intended, but it is Saturday.

Alcibiades: Not to dismiss your reaction to the PRC. So, yes, all of my examples have baggage. If you could assist, I'd like to get off this ride for a second, and ask, because I'm sure you must have one, what would your industrial economic strategy look like.

Fix the tax system. A dollar earned is a dollar available to tax, no matter how you make it. If dividend income and capital gains weren't subject to special deals there'd be a real change in this country tomorrow...I suggest you know that in the back of your mind. But for some reason you think one class of citizens has a god given right to hang on to the decision-making power that money and access to political clout gives them forever. I disagree. In fact, under a better tax regimen I’d wager lower and middle class taxpayers would have a lot more cash in their pockets to spend and businesses would thrive – that’s what I’d call positive economics, not the shell game that neo-cons call their program of so called ‘stimulating investment’. Put the damn money to work. That’s my program.

Clamp down on the ability of corporate and family money to pass its inheritance down through the generations and put that money back to work too. Then we can talk about industrial strategies. Otherwise, capital is just finding new ways to feather its nest. The funny thing is that Trudeau knew that but he didn’t have the chutzpah to put it into effect – I guess he kind of appreciated being the son of a millionaire too.

That's my industrial economic strategy for the moment.

" A dollar earned is a dollar available to tax "

Boy that says it all doesn't it ?
Oh yes, and of course tax divided income, capital gains and inheritances. If fact lets route out every person who has made good decisions for himself and his family and redistribute their wealth to those that have made bad decisions or no decisions at all.

This is socialism or better yet communism, whatever ism it is we all now it doesn't work.

Capitalism fosters a climate that results in efficiency and innovation. Money is the reward for this. Money for nothing will bankrupt any society.

"Fix the tax system." Fine. Great. I'd like a flat tax.

As Quick draw would say, "Hold on thar', Baba Looey, I'll do all the thinnin' around here!"

Well, maybe not. But I don't defend any one class, because I do not believe in class or god given rights. (or god, for that matter) I do believe in social mobility and a balance of the rights/obligations of the individual and the community.

I've written previously that the National Brokerage Party's principle function was to arbitrage the diverse and ever changing interests accross the nation. If the Liberal Party were to disapear today, (muted cheering in the background) we'd still need a viable means to allow the ever-changing allocation of power in Canada to neutralize the centrifugal forces that are constantly at play.

IAMC:

I don't think it says as much as you fear. Disregarding any interpretation of Alcibiades's political/economic leanings, He's right that simplifying the tax code would retain more cash in the system. It would be revenue neutral if done right.

IAMC

I take it you agree with the divine right of kings then. Furthermore, if entitlement is such a great thing I guess you'd have no problem with giving the continent back to the natives it was stolen from .

Dammit you people! Lets get back on topic! All this BS is exactly why things end up like they do in the real world. There were many good points in the beginning of this blog - why did it sink? Why we can't use the FAT cats. Semi privitization, the pushing out of unions to result in such tragic crew shortages and all the rest of it. I live in the QCI's, life has been yet another struggle for us with every decision made in the Vancouver area affecting us the worst, even though our logs funded more of it than we'll ever know. But thats another topic.

What happened? Even if the ship had been fitted with new nav equipment, every boat over 14 feet has a compass & RADAR. If anyone has ever seen a RADAR screen, they are shades of green, water is dark, land is bright. Had anyone been paying attention (for what I see as as much as up to 20 min+)they would have seen the radar screen was the wrong color as the land mass was taking up the space where there should have been water. As for a solution? I suggest the same as some one said, buy/lease a used vessel.

LPqci: Sorry!

LPqci

Sounds fine to me. Problem is, it has mostly been said. Without some more information about what happened and why, it's hard to keep on topic. Earliest estimate for Q of PR to be back in service that I've heard is mid April. How are you managing in the interim?

We have barge service Teusdays to bring in new refrigerated trailers for grocerys & freight. BC Ferries has generously provided chartered air flights 2 - 4 days per week for anyone travelling for medical or stuck off Island. (Most families having babies prefer waiting out the last month of pregnancy in Prince Rupert, for example). However, they aren't letting cars onto the barges (as there were too many salt water damage claims last June when the QPR's starboard engine blew and the late 'North was in refit), so we can't drive to Vancouver, (airfare is $800.00 return for 1 person vs 15 hr drive) so we have to wait until the QPR is back. They say April 15, however it was scheduled for refit until mid-June, and now they are converting upper deck staterooms for crew, that could be longer. By the way, from QCI - Prince Rupert is an 8 hour journey, we always got a stateroom overnight and there wern't enough to go around then. There were 42, now there will only be 11 - 17 rooms available!

So now we get to the tourist season. Bus tours of 24 making seniors sleep on the floor in the lounge? People being told reservations may mean nothing and good luck if you've got a motorhome. 9/11 and SARS cut our tourism down give or take 50 percent. 3 ferries a week instead of 6 won't help either. But, that's life & the semi isolation is why we love to live here. I just hope the lawsuits leave enough money for BC Ferries to even survive.

LPqci
That sucks. I'm glad you're posting. Too many people down here, me included, haven't a clue about what life is like outside the Lower Island and the Lower Mainland.

Obviously someone in Victoria hasn't been doing his/her job for a lot longer than the last week. Seems to me you folks pay taxes too and deserve more than 17 staterooms - especially in high tourist season. Down here we bitch when there's a one ferry sailing wait.

What's the solution? More ferries, smaller ferries, more sailings, a different route? There must be something attractive about the service or there wouldn't have been anyone sniffing around about buying it would there? Or would they only be interested in cashing in on the tourist trade and do nothing (except increase costs) for the residents?

Lots of questions, no answers from me. I have to leave it to you for now though. Best of luck. Maybe others have something positive to add.

tcahill,

FOI = Freedom of Information.

willy says

Good comments willy, in other words if MOT standards are inefficient then the MOT should shoulder the blame, safety levels should not be set at such low minimum levels, after hearing about the plane crash at Port Alberni and the MOTS prior involvement with that plane I sure as hell won't put much confidence in their final out come, they after all are just like the Parole boards, what ever they rule is final, and like the Parole board, their not accountable to no one, and are never faulted. What a traffic occupation to have, when your right your correct, when your wrong your still correct.

Alcibiades

Yes, I will agree to returning the continent to the natives it was stolen from.
That is if they agree to return it to the natives they stole it from.
Exactly who was anywhere first ? The Brit's give England back to the Normans ?

Was there not a single first person to find our continent ? Were they entitled to the entire land mass ? What about the second person ? Did they not deserve at least half ?
Isn't it all one world ? Please explain what you are asking me.
Ever heard of Keneweth Man ?
South America was conquered by Spain. Why aren't you picking on them ? This is silly talk.

I'd like to join in this silly talk if and when the Tyee ever has an article on land title.

May I repeat myself:
The captain it ultimately responsible!
no matter what equipment or which stupid people he is burdened with!
Yes anyone with a $400 GPS could have seen the disaster coming, but that is not the point!
Like an airplane a captain can refuse to depart if things are not right!
And again if anyone should have drowned, that too is the captains lot in life!
We are a society of excuses, why face your chores if you can get away with slacking off?

I don' give a rats arse what any body thinks, how with all the technology that was on that ship, even failing that, sh!t by simply looking to the starboard one could have seen how close they were to land,such was the case with one of the passengers, when she went out for a smoke on the starboard side, the sight of the trees and rocks being so close caused her enough concern,she went back into the ferry and moved her family to other side of the ferry. Why then if this lady could see that they were this close to land why those at the controls did not,some thing really wrong with this picture.

IAMC:

Obviously not practical. However, RENT is entirely practical. We should be paying the previous tenants rent, on a kind of sub-let basis, said rent to reflect the GDP over these last 500 or so years. That's only fair.

LPqci queried:

Dammit you people! Lets get back on topic! All this BS is exactly why things end up like they do in the real world. ...

Why we can't use the FAT cats. Semi privitization, the pushing out of unions to result in such tragic crew shortages and all the rest of it.

Lack of answers brings this sort of speculation, this is the lifeblood of blogs. Correct to re-focus on subject, but like a pub conversation you shall have to accept the distractions.

Ok in general, what happened:

my take:

The bridge crew, possibly crew in general, on the northern routes is very experienced. It is considered a plum position that many watch crew vie for. Many can only get positions after the others retire from the run.

Enter new nav equipments with the refit and bridge upgrade.

Part of the new equipment include navigation screens that 'overlay' current position (derived from GPS or gyro navigation systems) onto a travelling map of the area. The displays are in full color, contain the full map data and are very appealing and convincing to users of their accuracy. The US Military gave warnings that GPS systems were going to have problems over the weeks of March 10-April 22 due to high sun-spot activty. The 'solar wind' causes a number of problems to all communications systems all over the world, but especially to any that are exposed to high-altitude layers of the atmosphere, obviously the signals coming from satellites would have to go thru these regions of the atmosphere.

Use of the 'travelling map' equipment, with position data based on GPS could place the user in extreme hazard with the GPS data so much in error. Combine this with a 'watch' that may not have been so experienced with the use of this equipment and its errors and a lethal combination can be found.

Your comment regarding radar is true only if using very old displays. More common is a modern display that 'fades' the deep strong signals to prevent the 'burn thru' of the monitors, again something that newer equipments use. Possibly the radar output could have been placed 'over' the travelling map, but again this is speculation and unknown.

In the end ALL of these items are listed as AIDS to NAVIGATION and do not excuse the captain and watch for any errors in their position data.

Again the 'radar screen' is a very old term. Unknown if the Queen of the North had such an old screen or if newer plasma displays were in use.

I am aware of a F-18 that crashed into the brooks peninsula, the pilot was flying upside down in cloud. The truth could never be known but his gyro nav system and GPS showed the aircraft to be 5 NM north of the peninsula, were the pilot to by using the 'travelling map' to navigate (something commonly done with these full color very convincing systems) then the error would not be known or noted until it was too late.

From what I understand the watch crew called in after the impact that their position was other than it correctly was. This would indicate some major error in navigation, given the speed of the vessel and lack of reaction from the watch, I suggest that they were in error regarding their correct position, something that is lethal in the close waters of the coast.

Yes,certainly something smells fishy !

Watching trees fly by while on a ferry ?

That is absolutely insane,but i guess Colin would still be sailing with AUTOPILOT like the bridge occupants(whoever they may have been?)Can you say the Ministry of Transport is filled with incompetents.GOOD THING GARY FERET COLINS LEFT WHEN HE DID...then again he left behind his incompetent mentality.
Next time you roll/step onto a ferry,roll the dice,see if you are really as lucky as you think you are.

murdock this accident just doesn't pass the smell test.

LPqci continues:

Sadly counting on BC Ferries to shoulder the entire load is not credible thinking.

Better would be to look into alternate operators and see what value can be found there. If the tourist trade is as valued as you say that it is, then a private operator, or local corporation may be found or founded to service the route the way that it is wanted.

let us see what the poker faced graham clarke has to offer on this route when we tell him to provide his own vessel for this run if he really wants it...

woody,

I am less inclined to suspect some conspiracy here.

Human error does happen. Equipment does fail.

Some very experienced people can and have, in the past, make the mistake of complacancy or lack the continued exercise of due diligence.

What I have heard from other mariners that ply those waters, that a common course correction should happen on the exit from a channel that leads directly towards Gill Island, this did not happen.

Why will be the $64 question until an answer is given.

In the mean time, I still maintain that a suitable vessel should be leased/bought, possibly from the Med cruising industry and the route, for passengers at least, be better served than emergency only airlift.

Deleted for insulting content. Elliot, Thomas49 and others who use Tyee threads simply to hurl epathets and insults at one another, please refrain. We value the information and insights you can bring to bear on the topic of the story or related issues. Slamming each other personally adds nothing to the thread. -- Tyee editor

Deleted for insulting content.

murdock, Im not implying any conspiracy,but what I am saying though, is that some one screwed up, and because of this, two innocent people lost their lives, as well I don't believe there was, is, or will be any excuse for allowing this tragic event to occour.

excellent comeback thomas49. you sure are quick.

hate to be a sychophant ,woody...but you are right on the money!

and murdock,how deep is the ocean ? can you really bury anything there ? like a governments INCOMPETENCE ? ask gordon campbell,these deaths are on his shoulders ,like every childs(716)death,
deaths of disabled,etcetra.he is CULPABLE for every decision leading to this TRAGIC ACCIDENT.

thanx ellyot,been praktising...he...he...he...

thomas49 becomes hysterical:

deep as it needs to be, as the creator meant for it to be.

government(s) (SOCRED, NDP and LIBERAL) incompetence in the naval planning field and interference with professionals in these operations has brought BC Ferries and the coastal communities to this present situation.

blaming any one of them is silly, there is more than enough to go round.

as for the other blame you are trying to spread, perhaps you could post it in a better place?

LPqci pointed out quite correctly that the thread is supposed to be about the ferry sinking and the toll on the North Coast.

Murdock
A good post and to add to the GPS issue, when we first got DGPS, we were testing it in daylight and watched our “position” and track jump sideways by 400m!!!

It’s a great tool, but only that. The nav systems with electronic chart and radar overlays are very nice, but can overwhelm a new officer with to much information and to many switches and menus.

There will be a time lag to hire a new ship as it will have to be inspected and then retro-fitted to Canadian standards. Hopefully they have started looking already.

Thomas
Gee, if the Captain of the Coast Guard Icebreaker/buoytender uses the auto-pilot, I will be sure to tell him he is stupid.

LPqci
I suppose they could use of the covered barges that they have for paper products?

woody,

screw-up? yes I think human error is to blame here.

pay the price? emotionally I think one person already is paying that price.

excuses? without an accounting of what went wrong, there can be no way to make sure it does not happen again. Any direct dereliction of duty or intentional action (such as if someone actually steered the ship towards land) should be deservedly punished.

in my experience, it is possible to make an 'honest' error. Such as the misreading of an altimeter in -50C temperatures during an extreme high pressure system in the high arctic. An entire aircrew of a C-130 Hercules did just that in the 1990's. They then became confused when the lights of the landing strip 'dissapeared' behind a hill (not marked on the simple high arctic maps), they misread the 'j-scope' altimeter since the aircraft was slightly banking to the starboard. The C-130 dragged the right wingtip then the pilot suddenly saw the airfield and turned to port, too low he struck the hill, then the aircraft was torn into 3 pieces and the crew had to survive huddled in the cold until a rescue crew could get out to them. I knew the rescuers and came to know the flight deck crew.

A similar 'mistake' happened less than 2 months later when again an altimeter was misread in -50C cold in Alaska and this time the aircraft hit the runway too fast and in too steep a decent, snapping it in two. It was the middle of three aircraft all landing in order, the third aircraft hit the back end of the second and this started a fire on the third aircraft.
I knew 5 of the dead in this incident, all of the aircrew were cleared of any major wrongdoing.

Why?

The older C-130's were found to have faulty altimeter service modules, that mis-read the altitude in high pressure and very low temperature combinations (the chamber meant to measure the pressure cannot flex enough to correctly measure this).

I tell this only to say that many lives were spent in learning this strange combination created a dangerous situation.

I admit to not knowing all the details of the ferry accident, I am willing to understand the errors in navigation and wish that those lessons get learned and shared so that others may learn from them and more lives are not lost.

Negligence is punisible, ignorance is punishable, honest errors need to be learned from and used to stop future errors.

This post has been deleted for containing nothing but vitriolic insults.

sorry everyone I awoke the troll, for that I apologize

This post has been deleted for containing nothing but vitriolic insults.

funny how the campbell govt. line can be soft sold on this site ,but the truth is DELETED...

READ THESE PAGES CAREFULLY,DAVID BEERS IS NOT A LEFTY,HE IS THE FARTHEST THING FROM IT...AND THE SITE MANAGER IS A RIGHT WINGED ASS KISSER,LOOK AT WHAT SHE DELETES...IT IS ALL FROM THE BIBLE OF SOCIAL CONSCIENCE,TO WHICH THE LIARS HAVE NO ADMITTANCE.

hmmmm... do i smell a rat? or is that the offspring of sleepswithangels/deep forbidden lake? didn't think he could contain himself for long.

actually elliot,it's just the TRUTH finally leaking out.

this is not a FREE SPEECH SITE...

and why would mr. beers and his editors be afraid of the truth sleeps?

I don't know if you really are a person called elliot.
Since i have been on this site,YOU have been one of the few staples,of a RIGHT WINGED DIET.YOu are one of the soft sell Campbell acolytes and you stay within the boundaries of being the ultimate pimp for the FRASER INSTITUTE,you sell your STUPIDITY WITH HUMOUR.

David Beers was a pimp for the GLOBE AND MAIL,that say's it all for anyone with intelligence.

Deleted for insulting content.

And to respond to the claim Thomas49 made in this post claiming that The Tyee is not a free speech web site; in essence he is right. Commenters are not invited or allowed to post ANY speech they want. The understanding presented when commenters sign up is that speech will not be racist, sexist, defamatory or gratuitously insulting. -- Tyee editor

ellioto said:

Thank you!

I know if you actually could say something that made any sense you would. But I won't hold my breath.

More to the point and topic at hand. When I lived on Haida Gwaii, back in the early 70's the service, as I mentioned above, was provided by a Norwegian ship, the Northland Prince. I can't remember the fare for vehicle and driver, but it was a lot more expensive at the time to get one's self and truck to Rupert and back than to fly to the Big Smoke and back.

Eventually, to give the residents a bit of a break, the government started subsidizing their fares by paying half (or one way of the return) for residents. It was pretty simple to decide who qualified for the subsidy, if you showed up at Queen Charlotte City or Masset with your truck to buy a round trip, you were a resident. If you embarked from the mainland, you weren't. This way residents (who supported the highways with their taxes, when there were only about 70 miles of paved road on the Islands) got a break without subsidizing tourists.

Thomas, free speech only exists on the Tyee as long at is fits the party line. Opposing views are not welcome.

The real issue here is securing a suitable vessel to service the northern route. Fast cats are simply not viable due to their performance in rough weather and their high fuel consumption. Neither would a Spirit boat be viable as it would be too large to run economically in the off peak months. Note the sticken ferry had only a total of 100 or so people on it. A Spirit boat can take 2000 foot passengers. I would wager BC ferries is looking hard for an interm replacement to cope with the summer peak season.

Working Man, the sunken ferry only had 100 people aboard because it was off-season - it can hold 700-800 people crew and passengers and 120 or more cars. The crew alone was over 40 people, fortunately in this case, a high crew to passenger ratio, as well as the superb effort of the fishermen from Hartley Bay undoubtably minimized the loss of life.

rkewen, that you my point exactly.

Working man
Your observations about free speech are nonsense in the context of this website. The only things I've ever seen removed had nothing to do with the relative philosophies or politics of the posters - they were scurrilous personal slights and arguments between two, and sometimes more, individuals - as you of all people should know. Take heart though, similar disagreements with right-wing points of view, posted and expressed with the utmost in delicacy and politeness, on several (if not most) conservative boards of my acquaintance, will definitely get one banned. To suggest that anything similar goes on here is, as observed above, utter nonsense.

As for your observations about the useful size of craft for the northern coastal run and to serve the Queen Charlottes; on that subject you do seem to know what you're talking about.

Tyee editor, you in fact allowed a racist remark on the article regarding care-givers. The fact the racist poster is a died the wool socialist seems to indicate that such remarks are tolerated when they come from your supporters.

Irrespective of what you may think, working man, that remark was not, according to any definition of the term racist. If you look at it again, it implied stupidity and had nothing to do with race.
Cheers

In fact, readers might be more interested in what 'you' wrote in subsequent exchanges that were, in fact, deleted by the editors. Were all those posts still extant, I have no doubt as to what they (the readers)would conclude.

I consider this remark very racist. It implies that all women who marry men from developed countries are doing so on a purely economic basis.

The entire thread was quite racist, actually. The gist was "since my neighbour in Pookeepsie was black, I know all about blacks."

murdock says woody,

pay the price? emotionally I think one person already is paying that price

This may be so, but what of the two souls that are laying on the bottom of the sea in The Queen Of The North, it is they who deserve the emotions,not the dork or dorks that caused this loss, sh!t their alive.

working man,i guess cause i rode the ferry,i am an expert,like so many on this site.
your example of what is allowed and what is expected are to be commended.

and as woody so rightly say's...them that made the MISTAKES are still around,willing to make more.

Hardly. In my opinion, the fact that some young women from the Philippines find it necessary to come to North America for a variety of reasons: family, education, access to hard currency and the like was both implicit and explicit in the original article. Among the things those women do included providing domestic and other services; about which it is not necessary to refer – sometimes this includes ‘relationships’ of various personal kinds. If you had read the article, it would have been obvious that the affiliation of the parties in such relationships was being described as not always fair, equitable or necessarily sincere and loving from either point of view.

I can understand why you might be upset when someone called you 'stupid', but the particularity of the remark could in no way be extended to refer to all members of a class of people which it would have to do if it were to qualify as nominally racist. There was no implication in the statement to which you object so strongly that all women from the Philippines come here to marry ‘stupid’ white men. Your own remark (and it is still posted on the site) in response to the statement you've objected to is, however, on the borderline of being gratuitously insulting. However, I'm satisfied the reason your subsequent writings (some of which were directed at me) were removed had nothing to do with your politics.

G West, since you are a white male living in a white male dominated society, you have little or no experience of being a victim of racism.

I found that remark insulting and racist to New Canadians no matter how hard you try to defend it. I have no doubt it was allowed due the fact the poster shared a similiar political agenda to the editor.

Thomas
As to your remarks about something that obviously took place on this site last night, I don't know anything about it so I won't comment. You do know my general position about free speech and I'm sure you understand that, as far as I'm concerned nothing that 'working man' said gave me a moment's pause. Sometimes having one throw such comments around says a lot more about the hurler than the target.

Had the remarks been left for others to read I would have had no problem. My only involvement in the discussion was to question 'working man's' assertion that there was anything political about the deletion.
Cheers.

Working man
Apparently, I'm unable to disabuse you of your evident prejudices about the attitudes of the people who run this website. I can do, and write, nothing more than I have already written.

I think the issue is one of such apparent simplicity and transparency that it should not have needed the clarification I have now attempted several times to provide. The only interest I had in the matter stemmed from the fact that I was peripherally involved in the original commentary.

If you feel your politics is so disrespected by the managers of this site then I can only suggest that spending another minute here would entail some serious harm to your self-esteem. In any case, as for me, the issue is closed quite satisfactorily.

No hard feelings, I will not hold the nasty things you said about me against you.
Cheers.

g west you know at times i will stand on my head to make a point and even if i don't make it and it surfaces from another,i will rally round that voice.

WOODY,SAID IT BEST,TWO FOLKS DOWN THERE IN DAVEY JONES LOCKER AND THE BOZOS RESPONSIBLE WILL BE SPENDING THEIR PAYCHEQUE THIS WEEKEND LIKE NOTHING HAPPENED...and i am not talking of the crew !

Yo! Thomas.
We all have ways and means of getting the point across, no sweat dude - I have seen the enemy and it is still us.
I am, for the near future - out of here – take care - the weather is just too good and there are other fields to wander.

I don't know what it is with you irrational wing nuts:

I'm glad I don't have to diagram that sentence, and frankly I'm not sures I understand it. But I'll take a guess you meant that because the Spirit of the North wasn't full at the end of March, it was too large of a vessel. But then you act as if the only other option is a vessel almost three times as large.

All year round whoever provides passenger and car service also provides freight service which could mean trucks and does definitely mean volume. The only other access to food not locally grown, hunted or gathered is by air, a pricey proposition. And then summer comes, and if the boat is full we're not talking about a few hour wait - try a few days or a week. Do you actually try to understand what you read or what you write?

In the old Northern Prince days the ship might miss a tide or two, leading to a half or full day wait from the scheduled sailing right there.

Colin
I did not mean to suggest the captain stay on the bridge 24/7. I know they have to rest/sleep/eat. I ride ferries every day so am aware that, even in an 10 hour shift, the captain needs a break.

Privitizing the ferries is just not viable for many of us who really do see our ferry as a highway. Please don't respond with, you chose to live on an island, so you can't complain, argument. Unless you live on an island without a lot of services and those services are a ferry ride away, then you don't really understand. I'm talking schools, dentists, hospitals, rec centres, jobs, shopping etc. The basics that are taken for granted in the cities and towns on the mainland. Our ferry and it's workers are part of this community. If they were posted to other ships and a private firm came in to run our service, it would be impossible for many of us. We pay over $20. now for a return trip of 30 minutes. The same problems as those in the QCI's face. It must be very hard for them now having to depend on barges for basic supplies. I know how it would affect us if something were to happen to our ferry. I also feel safe with our crew and captains. I know the level of education they have in regards to safety. I don't know that I would feel as safe with a private company who are only wanting profits. We have a very large tax base and we all pay taxes. Ferries are a fact of life in BC and should be run by the government and subsidized if they must be. We on the islands subsidize a lot of things in the rest of BC and you don't see us complaining about it.

woody expands:

What do you suggest we do to make things better for the dead?

I say that learning from the mistake or mistakes that cost the lives is the best way to honor them.

aalborg,

I also live on Vancouver Island, I have lived on a very small island with only a store which was stocked every 3 days via truck from the ferry. For two weeks the ferry was out of service and everything ran out, I mean everything perishable was gone, none, nadda nil.

The island trust was complained to many times during the first week when the problems were building, they had no answer. We moved away three months after the ferry came back on and considered ourselves lucky, especially once the ferry went to a private operator with foot only (or bike) traffic.

The barges continue to serve the cargo needs and some barges still support all of Vancovuer Island cargo (check into how Van-Kam or how your groceries arrive on van isle). Once the primary services drop below a certain level (in some ways the BC Ferries services to Victoria and Nanaimo are reaching this tipping point) then the traffic will either seek another means (if it is worth it) or they will go elsewhere - common for the tourist trade.

Watch for the Ferries to try to capture the tourist driving market with wayyy more reservations (like 80% of the other than bus or truck traffic) and damn to the locals that pay the subsidization of the routes. Get ready to pay more to just cross and even more to 'reserve' space for any sort of private vehicle.

The black ball ferries will appear very attractive soon after that.

Murdock, to hear you bleating about the potential loss of a public service for which we all pay taxes is soooo refreshing.

And why can't you get some private sector ferry out of the Philippines to step in and serve you better?

I don't know about you, but I'm sure happy Ottawa, and not Victoria, still sets the rules on marine safety or you'd have the service that fits your right-wing take on life.

Hey, don't forget to pack your own life jacket.

murdock you said,

This question is a diversion on your part to deflect from your previous comment of,

To carry on in this direction is a deviation of from the topic.

Remember the infamous 2003 "Coastal Ferry Act" oh-so-sneakily engineered by the Campbell Liberals: hello privatization...good-bye Crown Corporation...and good-bye access to information.

The Ministry of Transportation used to refer to coastal ferry services as one of the "Core Business Areas." Their plan used to clearly state:

"Public transit and coastal ferry services are vital to the economic and social health of many communities. Coastal ferry services are an extension of the highway system, connecting islands on the B.C. coast with other islands and the mainland."

In the "2006-2009 Service Plan, however, coastal ferry services have disappeared completely from the core business area list...instead their service plan's prime focus now is:

"to key transportation infrastructure for the 2010 Olympic Winter Games and to help showcase British Columbia and meet the needs of the Games."

And what voracious needs they are...

:(

that's the american spelling of okanagan.

Our island is the only industrialized one and the tax base is huge. We can't use barges. There is daily delivery service here from all areas and with so much industry there is no time to sit around waiting for a barge. It would be absolutely impossible to not have vehicles on ferries. We have already started our campaign against the liars who showed up from BC Ferry and showed us charts and projected growth figures and reassured us that we would not go private. The frigging audacity of these people is staggering. But we know the tricks they play and this island will undertake civil disobediance if they try to implement what they have already decided. The streets are the safety valve for democracy. We've demonstrated before when everyone on the island stood up and protested against things we would not accept and we won. This will not happen without a fight on our behalf. The ferries are now saying they are not in the medical evacution business and are planning to not have our ferry used to take people to the hospital during the night. The precedent has been set. They cannot renage on the deal now. They are still setting that precedent by arranging altenate medivacs from the areas affected by the sinking of the ferry. I am so sick of liars and cheats in every level of government and big business. The sheer greed, gross stupidity and incompetance boggles my mind. Nothing ever has to be as complicated as they make it. Common sense and a sense of decency would go along way to restoring so many areas of this province that are reeling from the greed and manipulation of every level of govt. and business. It has gotten so dumb and dumber out there, the govt passes a law the other day that will make people say they are sorry. Basic decency has to be legislated? I am looking forward to hearing BC Ferry say sorry to our island though. It will happen.

The finances of Bc Ferries is in such sorry shape, that replacement of the Queen of the North is impossible unless taxpayer funded. As with most of this so-called private corporation, money has come and will come from the taxpayer. All new things on board, shiny and happy, merely create an illusion that all is well under Mr. Hahn.

If anyone out there really believes that this is a private corporation, well more fool you.

.

Really good pieces, aalborg and crh.

We are experiencing the same sense of outrage over the threats of privatization to our ferries here as well.

The privatization of our ferries means the private company gets most of the profits and BC citizens assume all the risks.

I'd like to quote Nelle Maxey here...he has been a great advocate in the fight to save our ferries: (hope you don't mind, Nelle).

Regulatory controls are minimal. The commissioner is answerable to no one, except perhaps BCFS which pays his salary. He cannot be removed by government according to the Act. Extradinary Price Caps can be applied for as soon as new ships hit the water or if fuel costs go up or if ridership drops among other reasons (Act, Part 4, Sec 41-43) the number one priority for the Commissioner to consider when setting fares is the solvency of the private company running the service. "

And how's this for "frigging audacity"?

"friggin audacity"[B] No,that's not a misprint....that's twenty bucks!

Yes,we all know about those sweetheart deals that never seem to hit the MEDIA,except when they are meant to,like Jimmy Pattison's dollar deal for expo 86 you ever wonder how much Jimmy made on that little contract ?[B]

Allborg
Understood

Murdock
Thanks for the posts about the Herc, bad weather landings and takeoffs are truly sphincter testing moments. Sorry to hear about your friends it never good to lose them in this way.

allan opines:

Yes and I cannot count on Ottawa's take either, since they (the Ottawa bureaucracy) were the ones that 'forced' Air Canada to 'go private' then 'subsidized' the airfares (possibly still are thru some back room deal that we do not fully understand) allowing the 'mother' airline to crush all and or any competitors, allowing Air Canada along the way to become a defacto 'monopoly', now we face monopoly pricing from Air Canada, thankfully our cousins to the south still understand the value of competition for driving better business practices.

I fully expect the Ferry system to have private elements in it. The problem is the attitude that says the Ferries are an 'extension' of the highways. Ottawa does not agree with that view, else they; in Ottawa; would PAY for the Boat from Vancouver to Nanaimo along the Trans-Canada Highway route. Alternately,Victoria should be PAYING for the run along the Highway 17 route from Victoria to Tsawassen.

Neither of them do, I do not jump up and down and stamp my feet and hold my breath if they do not. I do get upset when the 'public' or 'crown' corporation was being mucked about by all the variety of governments of the day; SOCRED, NDP and LIBERAL. All of them have done it, all of them are to blame in the situation we find ourselves in now.

If the argument to be decided is 'are the Ferries an extension of the highway?' then please let us answer it FINALLY, one way or the other. This would go a long way to solutions for these problems into the future.

If yes, then we decide a subsidy amount, and either pay it thru a crown corp or private operator (no different than the way we pay for the upkeep and maintennance of the PAVED roads).

If no, then it is time for the public purse and the holders (our elected officials) to get out of the way and allow the private operators into the marketplace.

The public purse could then be directed to the enforcement of the many and varied marine regulations.

Colin,

Thanks for the thoughts.

The weather was actually clear (though dark and really really COLD!).

When you pay your taxes,the politicians of the day are SUPPOSED to distribute those monies into the maintenance of the infrastructures we have developed in building our country.

WATER SUPPLY,TRANSPORTATION/ROADS,COMMUNICATIONS are the top three the military take care of in battle and as i learned,when you lose control of these,YOU LOSE YOUR BATTLES.

go ahead and sell your resources,see who you chain yourself to.
Who owns the roads ?
Who owns the rail systems ?
Who owns the air space
Who owns the water supply ?
Who owns the power supply ?
How long can you make this list ?
ASK YOURSELF,WHO OWNS,WHO IS SELLING ? AND WHY ?

The capital of British Columbia is in Victoria on Vancouver Island,that makes the FERRIES part of the road system,OTHERWISE YOU DENY CITIZENS THEIR RIGHT TO ENGAGE IN POLITICS BY DENYING ACCESS TO THE LEGISLATURE AND POLITICIANS.

Ever go to a PROTEST in Victoria...THAT IS A RIGHT DENIED MANY...

Move the capitol to the mainland and let the island fend for itself is the only Neo Con thing i can think of.But,then there are all those rich politicians and retired folk with real expensive property over there...AND MAYBE THAT'S WHAT THEY REALLY WANT.

Hey, don't forget to pack your own life jacket.

Said Allan. Not to be too critcal of this notion, but Transport Canada is pretty much out of the regulator business. Oh they have regulations, in fact plent of them. But these are twisted menupulated and bent so badly one could be excused for mistaking them for a bowl of pretzels. You only has to look at various TSB reports to find that TC is increasingly under criticism as not enforcing the regulations. Take a look at the TSB report on the Queen of Surrey fire.

Transport Canada is letting vessel operators hire more and more of their own inspectors. This is sometimes known as Delegation to Class. Class is short for Classification Societies. These are marine inspection companies for hire who inspect vessel for the purpose of providing a risk analyses for marine insurers such as Lloyds of London.

The maritime community is small, your next job or promotion may depend on what kind of inspection reports you might make. Or to be very direct, professional mariner's and their advocates have by and large lost a great deal of respect for Ottawa and Transport Canada and we're not at the bottom of the barrel yet.

Pete L

well said, mariners and aviators.

googled bcpolitics.ca ferries

oooooopppsssss !

bcpolitics.ca/left_ferriesdown.htm

search on site gives a real good indication as to who the people are advocating BC Ferries Privatization and who will benefit...

Info on the basi/virk warrant just came out. Tie is alleged to be through 30G payoff from Eric Bourneman(sp) and also connections through Bob Bourke(sp)to unsuccessful bidder for BCRail (in Boulder Colorado - Omni track) through another individual. Tried to catch the details from the radio - no guarantee as to accuracy.
4 new fraud and breach of trust charges against Basi over land reserve fiddle in Sooke.
Big hoo haw in the Leg. in Victoria. Ties to Liberal campaign donations as well
THe AG says he can't talk - perhaps he'll use the new 'apology act' to say he's sorry!

Best I can do on short notice.

Enough, already, eh?
When do we find out anything "real" from BCF?
Say, just where is that BCF Summer "Discover Inside Passage" ship (Q of Chilliwack) sitting, when obviously needed now, for interim, emergency, sailings to/from the Charlottes, for public use, rather than their vehicles just "Sittin' at the dock O' the Bay" watching barges full of commercial products, come in and go away.
luv dO wAH (loved that Easter ride, '05)

"The best thing the BC Liberals did was to semi privatise the BC Ferry Corp. or we would be subject to the the mindless wining displayed above."[I] So said IAMC several days ago. Well, if you think the ferry service has been privatised, guess again. The provincial government is the shareholder, the provincial government pays the ferry corp. an amount in excess of $100 million per year to operate the system, treasury board just approved another $350 million for BC Ferries, and on and on. The corporate structure is nothing more than a smokescreen to prevent the public gaining access to the books and to prevent embarassing questions being asked of the minister of transport in the legislature. Gordon Campbell is the master of fairy dust and his grasp on public service non-existent.

The Kelowna fires in 2003 were front page news for days on end.

The ramifications of the sinking of the Queen of the North, with no viable replacement available, have slid, not only off the front pages of the papers in the lower mainland, but right out of the papers completely. Goes to show that no one basking in the myopic glories and riches of The Golden Decade really give a damn about the rest of BC.........

So....What IS the progress being made in restoring transport for our north coast?

RickW,The link i provided above shows that even though they saw problems in the future BC Ferries did nothing to avert this kind of problem.

It's called DENIAL and DAVID HAHN is who you should be questioning,after all it was written on the wall,long ago and now...it is the future.

and as usual,some lost their lives because of burecratic indifference...before anything will be done.

what a bunch of crap. this is one of the safest fleets in the world. bar none. a crew screws up on a midnight run and all you lefty opportunists jump on the bandwagon for political purposes because you have absolutely nothing else to complain about since the province is running so smoothly and your beloved ndp is floundering in opposition. as usual whining and bitching about nothing is your strong suit so you may as well keep it up, since it will be a very long time indeed before the left runs this wonderful province.

Who's jumping on a bandwagon, Elliot? How can a sunken ferry and two dead people be all about the NDP not getting back into power? You say a crew screws up on a midnight run. Well, there should be NO screw ups. Accidents, maybe, but not screw ups. I thought this discussion was more about keeping BC Ferry up to the standards it has always maintained and not privitizing it, so it can have a chance to remain safe. When people worship at the altar of the dollar bill then standards slip.

And, no, I am not and have never been an NDPer.

Elliot ! This link is for a site that will enlighten you and your kind as to the situation before the tragedy.READ and you may understand why the $h!t has hit the fan...FINALLY.

bcpolitics.ca/left_ferriesdown.htm

even though we disagree a lot Elliot,i would not want you on a ferry nowadays,it is getting too dangerous for all,crew or tavellers...

nonsense. this incident is just another excuse for the lefties to criticize the gov't. the standards have been maintained. the difference since this gov't took power is that the board can't play politics with the ferry corporation like glennie and the goons did. jack munro on the board of trustees? give me a break. and he was one of the more credible appointees considering all the other union hacks who were appointed to cover the fast-ferry fiasco.

Incident? One of the largest ferries on the coast sinks in dark and extremely cold seas. One that can take over 700 passengers and 115 cars. One that if it had not sunk so near to the community of Hartley Bay could have resulted in a much greater loss of life.

We have such fine crews on our ferries because of the high standards set by BC Ferries being a Crown Corporation for many years. The question is - are those standards now deteriorating, out of no fault of the crew but because of the effects of privatization? Are our ferries being maintained properly? Is safety still the main priority?

Haraldkann:

I rather think it's called indifference. The majority of BC'ers live in the lower mainland, and few will take any ferry anywhere. Ergo, no impact on their pathetic little lives. The David Hahns of this world can only act with impunity because no one really cares. The rich are above it, the poor are below it, and the middle class are hunkered down in front of their TV sets, praying that the real estate bubble doesn't burst until they can sell their house........

But again I ask, whre is the press, keeping it in our faces............?

elliot:

As does a locomotive, until it runs off the tracks, which will happen to this economy BEFORE 2010...........

lynn opines:

First question : are those standards now deteriorating, out of no fault of the crew but because of the effects of privatization?

No, federal regulations require that all the crew pass the same standards as thier counterparts on the east coast or great lakes.

Second question : Are our ferries being maintained properly?

Fair question as my insider sources say that until the Richmond fire there had been concerns about engineering spaces having dangerous levels of CO (carbon monoxide = exhaust). It took the incident and WCB investigation to push for better venting systems and more than minimal protections. As far as the skill levels, I think that the crew are all just as skilled as before, $$$ may have limited the parts supply and this will bring some more ferry delays as the crew are not suicidal and they will just not sail if the conditions are that dangerous. Watch for this to happen in the summertime....

Third question : Is safety still the main priority?

For the survival of the crew? Yes. Has to be, they want to come home also.

I still maintain that this is a mistake of position, which led to the impact on an island, well marked on the charts, but of no use if you do not know where you are.

Navigation errors happen, mistakes happen. Better to learn what happened so that we do not see this same mistake happen again.

you may be right rick. stranger things have happened. we shall see.

In the meantime, it IS fun second-guessing.....

I agree Murdoch navigation errors happen but considering what little information the public has access to surrounding the "privatized-when[/I[I]]-it suits-our-corporate-agenda" version of BC Ferries and a press as RickW says above that has allowed this story to slip conveniently off the radar, I suggest we keep asking questions until we get some real answers and keep the focus on an issue that affects many of us in this province.

Not to mention that a private buyer was aboard that ship looking it over in part of the relentless "Let's Make a Deal" privatization of our ferry services...and just about every other resource in this province. Funny how this was all kept so secretly under wraps. Maybe you could tell us when and where the public got to voice an opinion on the sale of this ferry to a private company?

As to federal standards, read PeteL's piece above.

As someone who is two ferry rides away from home, I have said many times on the Tyee how the well-trained and very fine crews of our ferries have guided us safely home on many a stormy night. They deserve to be commended. That does not mean that the effects of privatization, do not cause conditions, that lead to a deterioration in standards on ferries that is beyond the control of the crew and that in the end compromises their fine training due to no fault of their own.

As far as our ferries being maintained properly ? Well, how would we know. There is so little real information that the public is now able to access. FOI has become a nightmare ...and very expensive in some cases. The ferry commissioner is answerable to no one.

As far as safety being a priority. You sure are quick to answer "yes". Not so fast, say many ferry workers. At public meetings I have attended there have been real concerns surrounding safety:

Article: Privatized BC Ferries are a Disaster Waiting to Happen:

nupge.ca/news_2004/n08ma04c.htm - 23k

Here in the Kootenays we are also dependent on ferries, though not usually to the degree of someone on Haida Gwaii. Some communities are only accesible by ferry and others have an alternative access that requires lots of time and mileage. In many cases the need for a ferry, or bigger ferry is man made, as in dams disrupting previous modes of transport. In others like the Kootenay Lake Ferry the lake was always there but driving around it to the other side, from Balfour to Kootenay Bay via Kootenay Pass is something like a six hour drive in summer (it's been awhile since I've traveled those parts). In winter sometimes the pass is closed due to avalanches and the normal pass traffic has to be diverted to the ferry or towards Spokane.

Since Gordo's gang took over it has been a constant battle to maintain service levels, just like with our medical system out here. They were going to cut the hours of the Fauquier-Edgewood ferry, which is the only access to Nakusp for residents of Edgewood needing to have a baby or other medical attention. This is the main highway over the Monashee Pass to Vernon and has alway run 24/7. The Arrow Lakes are as wide as they are in these narrows, only because of the Keenlyside Dam at Castlegar. When they decided to cut the hours and shut down at night, government assured everyone that an operator would be given a cell phone and be on call for emergencies. This was dandy until someone pointed out to the government there is no cell coverage there. The government and those upstanding folks on Howe Street have no concept of conditions (I'm not complaining, I hate the city except to visit) on the North Coast, the Cariboo or the more remote parts of the Kootenays that aren't a suburb of Calgary. They sure don't mind pocketing the profits from the hydro, timber, minerals etc. though. In general people in these areas work hard and generate a lot of wealth for the province as a whole and are happy to do it with a minimum of infrastructure. We don't want all the fancy city lights and conveniences, but feel we deserve the basics of transportation, medical services and education. I don't think our kids should have to spend hours a week getting bussed to other towns or our elders have to move 2 or 3 hours away from their family and friends to have extended care. The Big Smoke gets a lot more from us than we get back.

rkewen says

So very true rkewen, what we in the fartland,hinterland,wetlands(coastal islands)hurtland, require is a rural only political party,which we should name, The Rural Party, then piss on the big centers that are sucking out our life blood.

rkewen

correct.

what to do about it?

woody, you would find the Rural party very soon bought out like the PDA was.

There was a shrimp boat owned by a Mr.Kelly that was on the scene early and he was saying the storm was ferocious and had there been more passengers they would have perished...
He was shaken because he had to leave PEOPLE IN THE WATER.

So,here is first hand news from someone that went back into the storm because there were no other vessels available.

Thanks to the people of Hartley Bay and others in the area...

HAD THERE BEEN MORE PASSENGERS,THERE WOULD BE MORE MOURNING.
11:05 pm news April 04 2006

Lynn ,good link...

Reminds us at the end of the article,of the Westray Accident and legislation that holds those responsible accountable regardless of the EXCUSES.

That is why ,Gordon Gecko/Kampbell,put David Hahn,between the ferries and the government.

Part of being a society involved a certain interdepence on one another. The infrastructure network in this province reinforces that in many cases, some of which are mentioned above.

This kind of infrastructure CANNOT BE PRIVATIZED, without offering those who are dependent on it some alternative. That is nothing less than extortion.

Campbell/Hahn simply have to let the northern run languish a bit, the put in some private operator, and say see how privatization works so much better? If the ferries (in whole or in part) are to be privatized, those who have come to depend on them must be given an alternative. Same goes with every public service in this province.

Rick W posts:

Something that the Basi/Virk boys were doing or did do with BC Rail?

Expect the extortion to continue and expand - especially since the current NDP are trying to court the same business interests.

I am somewhat disappointed in their lacklustre performance to date. Evidently oppostion MP's managed to get Emmerson's goat in Ottawa. Ther is surely enough material to do the same here in the lege. Why aren't the NDP keeping the northern run situation front and centre for instance? It could eaqsily be linked to what would likely happen if the ferry service were privatized....not necessaily a sinking, but anything from bankruptcy (Harbour Lynx) to mechanical problems as companies would try to keep maintenance costs slashed to the bone (that spate of plane crashes of late). And BC Ferry's apparent lacklustre response to the emergency in the north is appalling. No backup plan...............?

RickW observes:

Because the Fast Cats are still fresh in the collective public memory and the direct line that can be drawn between the NDP decision to spend money on the experimental ships and not on needed replacements can be drawn too easily.

This means political suicide were they to wade into this mess. Even though the current leader had no hand in it the NDP stickers are all over it and she is wisely 'steering clear'.

murdock
this is getting strange...we agree again. James can't change the past. She's much better to play this low key for the moment. Campbell already threw down the Fast Cats gauntlet in his first press statement after the sinking. James's position is much better served by being low-key and sympathetic to the isolated Islanders at this stage. Later, when and if the operational shortcomings which may have played a part in the sinking come to light there will be lots of opportunity to hang the dead albatross of the Queen of the North around Gordon Campbell's neck. James is learning fast.
If I were an NDPer I’d have some reason for optimism – at least in the short term Of course, the Basi/Virk thing could also morph into a real asset for the opposition as well. I suspect the research teams are busy on both files.

Murdock:

.But ont heother hand, there is enough conflicting information (speculation?) out there about the abilities of the Fast Cats, that the NDP could (I feel) work around the blemish, and show itself willing to seek an answer to the state of the northern run, instead of whatevr it is the Libs and Hahn are doing (or not doing). And, we are less than one year into the current government, which is "traditionally" the time when crappy things can be let out of the closet. Bring it out and examine it. The interview I heard last week on CBC Almanac, suggested that the Fast Cats COULD be used on this run, and the only question left to be answered was, would the Liberals bite the proverbial bullet and do so, for the good of the province.........

Rick W
The 'good' of the province...hard to think of that as anything but discontinous with the 'good fortune' of Campbell and his friends.

I'd say there's no chance the assets of Washington Marine Group will ever sail under the BCFerries flag again...as long as the Campbell liberals are in power anyway. These 'Liberals' aren't very good at biting bullets unless the gun's pointed at someone else.

Alcibiades:

I'm afeerd yer right......but I suppose I'm always hoping for a kinder, gentler government....

Still and all, regarding Murdock's point, the NDP should bit the bullet (speaking of bullets) on old news (Fast Cats), do the research, and provide some solutions if the Liberals are not prepared to do in short order. In wartime, solutions can be forthcoming in days, not years. There is no reason to look upon this as being somehow different.

Make them squirm.....something which harping on Basi, Virk, et al just isn't going to do

sadly the provision of solutions is not in the current vernacular of the NDP.

as I pointed out before, the NDP are curently courting many of the same business interests as the Liberals; therefore they, the NDP, cannot tread on those toes with some other solutions.

another good view is that of the patient man waiting for is enemy to show his weakness fully before striking. With this in mind, patience is the key right now as making popularity 'hay' now is a waste since the next polls are many years off...

...

just because I will never vote for the NDP does not mean I cannot understand thier actions.

As I said, what we in the fartland,hinterland,wetlands(coastal islands)hurtland, require is a rural only political party,which we should name, The Rural Party, then piss on the big centers that are sucking out our life blood.

Woody:
Haven't you heard that this is the Golden Decade? Don't you feel the wealth cascading into BC's coffers? Ask Carole Taylor......oh....she's in New York......telling th world how well off BC is....

Murdock:
Unfortunately, you are right.......and those with the least influence (real or imagined) in BC continue to get the shaft..........

'this is the Golden Decade? Don't you feel the wealth cascading into BC's coffers? Ask Carole Taylor......oh....she's in New York......telling th world how well off BC is....' you've never been more right-on rickw. can't remember the ndp treating the public sector unions as well as the libs just did.

Elliot:

You have to get your nose out of the lower mainland, and your vision beyond your nose.

Besides, the "bonus" still doesn't make up the loss through the 15% reduction.

And what does the NDP have to do with it? Like the esteemed Gordo Campbell, you are digging up old news. The conditions faced by the NDP, left by the Socreds, did not allow the largesse this present economy offers. So where is this largesse, as it applies to the general population? Like one carpenter I know said: "So where is my $10,000 a month if this is the Golden Decade? I don't care if there are now two carpenter jobs instead of one. It doesn't put money in MY bank account."

why would a carpenter expect $10k/month anyway rick? that's the problem: unrealistic expectations from labour unions. i'd say 11% plus a signing bonus is pretty reasonable, and this time the money's really there. glennie and the goons used special warrants to set up the unions and left the libs holding the bag. it was sabotage, pure and simple, and paul ramsey admitted it publicly. check your history rick. look it up. this is the golden decade, and we're fortunate enough to have a gov't that understands economics to manage our windfall. your beloved ndp should get used to sitting in opposition, b/c they're going to be there for a very long time indeed.

Why not? There's a shortage....
How come a house here is worth $600,000 and ther same structure in Regina is worth maybe a $100,000.....?

There's no rhyme or reason to this - except "demand". That a carpenter isn't making $10,000 a month, inspite of the fact that the house he is working on has virtualy doubled in price, doesn't make sense either. Except to show there is no real shortage of skilled labour.....

Also, elliot, $10K is not that much, considering that most carpenters are self-employed, and WHEN the bubble birsts, they have to have something set aside for downtime....

and of course that's the govt's responsibility isn't it rick?

Now why would you assume that, elliot? It's just being prudent that a self-employed small business person set aside something for the down times, for retirement, for injuries, for vacations, and for "contingencies". And as a tradesperson cannot rely on residuals to coast on, as the task (s)he performs is the only source of income (s)he has, and there is a maximum that can be performed, unlike sales-oriented small business (which in theory can have an unlimited income), (s)he must necessarily tack onto his/her quotes enough to cover such inevitabilities. And if you have ever devled into the marketplace as a self-employed trade, you will appreciate how difficult that can be at times.......

Whoa now! You can't expect a cut of the illegal take, er.. profits made by legitimate business ventures! Natural resources and land don't belong to everyone silly! They belong to the priveleged ruling class! They dole out some wealth to the working class every now and then, as sort of a hope lottery thing. A new market is created.....somehow.....and then some jobs are needed or something... Soon they raise the prices so you have to work two jobs in every family. When they take over the farm you can always move to the city! There it's easy to get two jobs and a place to live! Then just when you think despair is your only friend, an election comes along and you get to turf out the overlords! In with more childcare money, lower the GST by 1% and then in a few years 2%. You've really sent a message now haven't you! You're so clever! The system doesn't own you does it?

clubofrome:
http://www.saskndp.com/history/mouseland.html

But to get back to the topic at hand,namely lack of adequate ferry service on the northern run especailly, do you notice how it receives absolutely NO press coverage? Now is that the work of the black cats or the white cats......?

Ha! That's good stuff! Thanks!

I guess there are some events that both the cats and mice are complicit. The bits of cheese thrown our way keep the mice holding on to the dream of Cinderellas ball! Riches and wealth untold. The wheel of wealth creation spins and plenty of money falls off and lands in the hands of lawyers and business men who pick up on the rules of the game. They might even find themselves rubbing elbows with the power elite at the psyhcopaths club one day. The real wealth and power is in the large corporation and in the military and defence, their contractors and of course the energy sector. The average mouse is afraid of the truth. They know something smells but they're not ready to give up on the comfy home and lifestyle they are now accustom to. The stuff we all take for granted, driving to the grocery store, is based on a very fragile and increasingly complex but unsustainable infrastructure. Without constant growth in this economic model we have built the system will collapse. The sooner the better too! The longer we go without the correction the more it's gonna hurt! Time to put on your helmets... or in this case your life jacket!

The mice, too many of them, still believe the cats' propaganda and sometimes, unfortunately, they get too involved in dolphin pleasures for their own good...patricularly when they're young. By the time the real work needs doing, many of the mice are too busy trying to hang on to their own little piece of cheese.
There's another statement of Douglas's I always thought should be tatooed on most federal politicians hands:
"When a Yankee trader tells you that you are a tough negotiator, you know you have been taken to the cleaners."

Soon the skills required, the ones we are not teaching now, will include growing your own food. Maybe the rural area's still have 4H or similar programs but I don't see anything like it here in Gotham City. Schools should have gardens and livestock to tend to. Chores at 6am on a rotating basis. The competition shouldn't be in the sports arena but at the vegetable counter for the blue ribbon organic carrots! Maybe throw in a few fruit trees too... Fish hatchery? Anything that teaches food doesn't come from a super store! Not sure if that'll solve the Dolphin pleasure indulgence thing though...