We are definitely overtaxed!!! There have been very comprehensive TV documentaries on European Healthcare by the CBC and Global in the last few years. I'm sure those shows can be had from the networks. He could also learn a lot by simply surfing the Net - or simply calling the various countries from his BC office. This trip is definitely a waste of taxpayers' money and I wonder what the final tab will be. Nice paid vacation for the premier.

I agree with relayer - and wonder if anyone who writes to this blog ever writes to a newspaper or directly to the government. The email address for the premier is very simple - like the premier.

Waste of time and energy. See Relayer above.

"The script has been written, and no re-writes will be allowed."

It's going to take a whole bunch more than finely crafted or even angry letters, even if they arrive at the Premier's office by the train load, to turn this Neocon period around. Too much wasting time with diplomatic niceties with these people already.

It's the classic NDP "social democratic" and "liberal" approach I know, but of another relatively simpler and more naive time and period. The naivety is still there of course, but there is also more justified cynicism.

When it all gets to the level of widespread social/class rage, then maybe we can scare the piss out of the Premier's office enough. That's what it is really going to take.

My view.

We're definitely overtaxed by so called "free enterprise" demanding ever increasing profits to satisfy the insatiable demands of the stockmarkets.

When people are free to complain about government taxation, where are the complaints against obscene profits, also a form of unilateral taxation, like by the oil industry. Why is one condemned, the other praised, when it all comes out of the same pockets ?

BCTV, especially their Coxford, is a propaganda machine for privatization, which means loss of public control. Like Deb Hope says "YOUR tax dollars...." We can complain against government and kick them out, but how do we kick out Exxon, Shell, and Weyerheauser et al, when they strip and steal us to the bone ?

In any case, the Campbell agenda is to bring in US health providers, who then, under NAFTA rules can sue the public health system for loss of profits, and destroy it. As UPS is suing against Canada Post delivering parcels, planning take over the postal service, with Fraser Institute propaganda backing. They can't sue US Mail at home, but can in Canada and Mexico.

Privatization of services has been an unmitigated disaster all over the world and now our governments want to expand it over everything with the now negotiated GATS. It has nothing to do with the efficient delivery of services, but a brutal plan to take away the decision making powers of all levels of elected governments and replace them with the mercenaries of the multinational corporate Mafia, so they can colonize everything.

By the way, I'm a dedicated private enterpriser, in business in BC since 1957, so let's go easy on the anti union rhetoric, because I have seen 10 private businesses destroyed by big multinationals for every one by governments. But there's a great big difference between genuine private businesses and the multinational corporate gangs stripping our resources and our human rights.

By the way, how much of our monies does the multinational Mafia take out of BC every day, while our services are being cut down for the lack of funds?

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

JACK'S ! I have emailed my concerns with the health system every chance i have gotten.pointing out ill trained incompetent doctors ,from gp's to specialist's,burnt out nurses and tecnicians,and basically the whole overburdened health system itself.and i lay the blame for most of that at the feet of his party,because it was bad when he inherited it and because of the approach he and his big business buddies took,they made it a black hole in which they can shovel all the money they want now,it aint going to help.

i have yet to get a reply.i have been doing this for the last two years.

i guess he's been outta town.

a lot!

we need to actually enforce a one tier system, we actually have never had one. . no more queue jumping, especially by the thousands of BC Fed members who have let the WCB seduce them to the front of the line.

It is disgusting that a any member of a labour organization would take advantage of this loophole in order to get faster medical service. Any union memner who jumps the line should be banished for life form teh BC Fed. We cannot risk getting infected with such anti-socialist behaviour like this example of me-first, before the rest.

There should be no special interest groups of any sort - Aboriginal, prisoners, police, military etc that can jump to the head of the line before ordinary people. This is completely against the principals of socialism.

One waiting line for everyone, we are all equal.

We are all equal or we are not scoialists.

If we condone queue jumping for our special members, especially union leaders ( Buzz Hargrove did this for his knee surgery) we will look really stupid and weaken our argument against wealth being a factor in getting hospital care. The idea that its ok to queue jump if you are in a union and have WCB "insurance" we will not have a leg to stand on trying to deny the right of ordinary Canadians to buy supplemental insurance.

I watched a segment on 60 minutes last night about us style healthcare i.e. profit driven
HOLY SH!T!!!
One dude, just a regular joe six-pack, fell off a roof while working and then spent 18 days in a private hospital. He couldn't afford health insurance like about 50 million other americans. His bill was 246,ooo dollars!!
Hmmm if some misfortune befell me I wonder what my bill would be? Yes I wonder.
Also, if the first part's not bad enough, it turns out that an insured person would have accumulated a bill of about $50,000 for the exact same treatments!!
I guess US law allows private hospitals to discriminate against people who can least afford it. Sound familiar non-benefactors of the supposed "great guns" bc economy of the "golden era"?
Hey gordo go ahead and try to change our system to that and see what happens.
Really I dare you.
Then, later that evening, the movie Soylent Green came on the TCM channel.(they havent shown it anywhere else in 20 years)
Pretty scary stuff. Hey neufeld and lunn, you might consider watching it with your grandchildren and explaining to them why you did the things you did. Good luck.

Ed Deak: I'll tell you where the rage is! Every munchkin assumes that he will be, if not in this life, then reincarnated as a filthy rich capitalist, just as so many buy lottery tickets. A sober look at the odds would convince any rational human that they had no chance of winning... I'm not sure just where the "greed" gene lies, but I think it has to to with optimism being required for long term survival in those days of 'nasty, brutal, and short' life spans. In the days of Gaglardii's highway robbery, it went (in the words of his supporters) "Well, someone is going to steal, it might as well be him!" (An actual quote)

We have to promise that any multi-national corporation that agrees to step into health care in B.C. during the Liberal tenure is going right back out with the re-election of the NDP, and will do so as many times as it takes them, at a loss, to learn that they aren't wanted.

R. Smiley

A private hospital in the U.S. kept my grandmother's corpse warm for some twenty seven days until Social Security was exhausted. At which point she promptly "expired" as she was being transferred out to a state hospital.

Since all North America is suffering a shortage in trained nurses, and here in B.C. operating rooms stand empty because of this shortage, what we need to invest in is more training facilities. Private and two tier medicine will not train so much as one extra medical professional.

R. Smiley

Good point ripponfalls. That operating rooms stand empty because of lack of trained personnel should be the issue but instead its simply ignored and the consequences are used as a club to bash the system and open the way for its removal.

Nice piece, I wondered if someone would do something on this topic. Some missing points worth mentioning which I'd like to offer as a journalist who covered this subject in London for five years:

1. The current Labour party incumbents have a mania for devolution which they have applied to the NHS. Most, if not all, hospitals are now part of a competitive system of "trusts" which pits one against the other for "clients" and government "cash". Those seen to be succeeding get additional funds, those seen to be failing... well, you can imagine.

And perhaps unsurprisingly the medical centres in the poorer parts of the UK are frequently seen to be failing... I could see that especially happening in rural BC with services being further concentrated away from the people who need them.

This is happening to the UK school system also.

2. The UK's Hospital Trust mentality has created a spectacularly inefficient and costly bureaucratic Manager class, which has drained resources from patient care.

There's more, but I'm afraid I've bogged down with work. I recommend trawling around society.guardian.co.uk/health/ for a fuller picture.

how about we do absolutely nothing about the health care system, much like the ndp did during the 90's? oh, wait a minute, they hired elizabeth cull to screw things up, then they hired her back to fix them. and of course everything was okay after that.

Oh, and I believe the system is somewhat different in Scotland and Northern Ireland as their devolved parliament (thanks, Tony!) have managed to buffer themselves from the worst of these trends.

The fact that these things now differ throughout the UK may seem familiar to Canadians used to the provincial differences. It is something new to the Brits though.

I wrote the following on Feb.17 in my columnn in the Gold River Record:
======================================
Like most things called free, “free trade” is a dirty racket, with the Alberta government of Ralph Klein already well on their way to ruin Medicare and replace it with a private insurance system, always in the name of “savings” and “cost cuttings”, so that people will have to pay $300. or $1,000 a month and then get kicked out of the hospital when their insurance runs out.

Our American friends are telling us what really goes on down there with some 46 million people without any medical insurance, and children in their own families allowed to rot and die without any, or too late help. So much for the free enterprise health deliveries by the glorious system of market economics, where people's lives are the first commodities to be bought and sold by those “who can afford it”.

I'll never forget an interview Peter Gzowsky had on CBC radio, good many years ago, with a Canadian doctor who was taking some advanced kidney specialist training in Baltimore. He was telling the most unbelievable stories on the paperwork he was forced to do with the dozens of different insurance companies, the times when he had to beg some insurance jerk to permit the use of an ambulance for a patient and then the cases of desperation when the money ran out.

He told of the case of a young woman with kidney failure, whose family had $1.5 million insurance and when it ran out, the company told the hospital to pull the plug on her. The doctors refused to let her die, and the administration of the hospital was forced to have an emergency conference over how they could “afford” to keep her hooked up to the machine without upsetting their own “investors”?

Ed Deak.

Even in a socialist system they had hospitals reserved for party members who where “more equal” than others. I personally believe that our system has been “managed” into this crisis. It’s not like we didn’t know that there would be a bulge of older people going through the system and getting sick, and with the increase in life expectancy also being a known they could have planned to ensure that hospitals, equipment and staff were in place for it and would have life cycles to match the population cycles. As I get old, there will be ample oversupply of facilities and services as they are only now starting to react to something they knew was coming 50 years ago.

Logjam
The military has (sort of) it’s own medical/dental system, but it is underfunded and has a hard time attracting doctors and nurses.

Frank
In some areas they have dedicated some rooms to certain types of surgeries, so they don’t have to reconfigure the room everytime, this saves time and manpower. I would like to see a program that allows people with medical degrees immigrate in and serve up North for 5 years and receive support or other incentives during that time. Also scholarships for local students that graduate and pay off the government by serving in the North.

Ed
You are correct about the paperwork, when you talk to anyone connected with the healthcare system in the US and the first thing they say is that the doing the paperwork and dealing with all the healthcare providers requirements is a huge pain and drives up the admin costs of the system. In fact the private healthcare system down there is also crumbling under the weight of the baby boomers and the administrative boondoggle.

British National Health Service seemed to be a standard for a socialistic medical insurance. For the last few years British Unions are demanding in their contract extended Health Plans covering much more through private clinics. That proves that single tier, which did not even work in Soviet Union and does not work in Cuba or North Korea is not good for Canada either. Even in Canada we have billionaires keeping doctors on staff as a domestic servants, millionaires flying to Mayo Clinic or Paris, well to do getting their surgeries in India or Poland, WCB and ICBC clients getting ito private facilities and the rest of us waiting in line for service. Egalité did not even work during French Revolution, after killing blood aristoctacy and Catholic clergy, new, even more brutal ruling class emerged, bankers and merchants. Give democracy a chance. Do not let doctors decide who is going to live and who must die. There are probably honest politicians who should make those decisions not on a basis of utopian ideology but facts of life.

While the story discusses the UK strategy of P3s "to finance and run hospitals." the objective in BC has been to use P3s for the purpose of building them only. It seems simple to me, if a P3 can deliver a better facility for less money than use it, if not then don't use it.

Doctor and nurse shortage?

How about we build lots of new medical and nursing schools, give 100% grants to those who want to enter those professions, but stipulate that they must work in Canada. If they ever choose to go and work in the US or elsewhere, then their complete training costs, at US foreign student rates, must be paid back in full with interest, to allow some other Canadian to be trained in their place.

Those who don't want to make this deal can pay for their own education.

I agree, I just don't want ideology tipping the balance or going with the lowest bid and paying for it later.

As for running the thing, hospitals should be in the public sector. Ideological stance I know but that's just me.

I don't mind doctors running their private sector offices as part of the public system and I'm fine with lots of other private side guys doing this or that, such as tests, within the overall public system.

But the Cambie Surgical Centres of the country are, in my opinion, out of bounds because they aren't getting their personnel from Venus. Those people are coming from the public side and doing for-profit work only for those with the ability to pay.

Seems fair to me rouge

It's easy to have a health care debate in here.

For the question of privatization.

America is bad. Done.

As for fixing our system.

Throw more money at it. Done

That was easy. Health Care System fixed. Maybe you all should run for office so you innovative solutions can be brought to fruition.

You can complain about extreme profits by not buying that good. If I don't pay extreme taxes, the complaint lands you in jail. Slight difference. One is choice, one is required.

Just look at our disappearing and not so clean hospitals now. Great job. More administrators lees workers at ground level. Close rural and small town hospitals till just the 6 biggest cities have full service.My brother-in-law had a heart attack he got great treatment but had to pay 30,000 up front before operation. Then he got Leukemia 8 months later. Had to pay 35,000 before treatment started. And he has good health insurance for his 1200 a month. When Sister-in-laws 94 year old Dad died a US veteran. He was shipped out three days before he died at home because his benefits had run out.

JIm whether we go like the "European" private/public or American or stay universal we as individuals are going to pay more. Lots more. My question is why you'd want to give the "more" to profit but not the your fellow citzens?

JIm, Canada is not a good if you stay in it. Once you're here you can't pick and choose, you pay your taxes like the rest of us.

On the other hand, Canada is a good if you're outside it. You can always select some other country to live in.

As for innovative solutions do you have any that don't begin and end with the ideology that privatization is good?

Here's another reason why right-wing Canadians should be against private healthcare. While it is good for the insurance industry, it eventually becomes a major burden on employers. Employers in Canada are better off without the high cost and inefficiency that results when major employer insurance schemes become a necessity for all employees.

how's this for a conspiracy theory....

The two drunks, (Klein and Gordo) deliberately go forward and allow doctors private billing. Not putting a stop to any private clinics etc. They start to preach how good private/public is in many parts of the world. The public start fuming at the large bills coming in the mail from their family MD's. Stephen Harper steps in, and puts a stop to it all. Major brownie points for Harper, and next election...majority.

Once con majority rears its' ugly head, then the private health care plan can go full ahead, leaving the middle and poor in the dust wondering what the hell happened.

Throw more money at it. Done" Jim

Yea, I'd say that is basically true.

First, restore the tax cuts that were given to the wealthy, back into the public treasury. Then restore the money that was thieved from the public health care system to provide the tax cut wiggle room for the well heeled in the first place, and the sums that have since gone to provide "profit" to the blood sucking private sector that has created the crisis, along with its Neocon State Stooges, in the first place, in order to create the crisis that was needed to make these private sector ghouls even look half like a solution.

At least in here we're onto you Wingnut goofs and your haywire trickle down, and rob Peter to pay Paul, "Kiss The Ass of The Private Sector" economic theories.

Go somewhere there is more gullibility for these ruling class system fantasies and hyperbole, which you always peddle Jim Boy.

Jim, or whatever ......

It is an old, worn out song that we have a choice under so called market economy.

The purpose of economic competition is to increase profits. Period. Every time we go shopping the prices are up in every store. The gas prices are basically the same at every station, etc. etc. So, where is the choice?

Businesses now send around spies to see who's raising prices and then either follow, or leapfrog, as we can see at Safeway and Save on Foods. When something costs $1.45 at one, and $1.55 at the other whe can bet that by next time the first one will charge $1.65. and so on and on.

So please cut the neolib propaganda. Not everybody was born yeaterday or is brainwashed to believe their "betters". I've been in business for 49 years now and have seen and know all the tricks. Also how we, the producers are being shafted by the conspiracy of the buyers. Have you seen any "cheap meat" in the stores, when I got $29. for a perfectly healthy
1000 lbs cow ?

Goddamn bloodsucking crooks, using their powers to steal from all sides. Especially the insurance companies.

Ed Deak.

like the ethics commissioner, looking into Harpers bribe for Emmerson.
Campbell is a dictator for the Corporate greedy by privatizing health care, next ICBC, etc.
Is there no way we the people can get rid of gordo garbage like this especially the crooked way he got in which is no secret?
He got in w/backing from Canwest media & BIG bucks corporations which are probably tax deductible
Check out IWTnews.com

Fiat - you must be off your meds today.

Expalin how monopoly competition drives prices down, Period. Prices on most consumer goods move all the time. Besides you have a choice....don't buy it.

You may have seen and know all the tricks but why do you keep falling victim to them?

CRH - about 75% of our health care expenditures currently go to "private business" I am surprized that the left hasn't marshalled the arguement that the reason our Health Care system is in trouble is becasue we already spend too much money on the private side. Hell, let's nationalize it all, every company, service or indivdual that remotely touches the Health Care system has to be nationalized. GM can hardly wait....

Actually I did, a few months ago on the Tyee. I said if costs keep increasing as privatization in the system keeps increasing maybe we should look at that. For example, one of the biggest costs is drugs. Their costs are increasing faster than other parts of the system. Yet they're private corporations. So why do we think more privatization would help?

I got a better one. Let's privatize everything. Even countries. No more governments at all. Everyone can have all the military, police, fire, roads, health care etc that they are willing to purchase.

Good point Frank, it opens the door to the discussion about what the Canada Health Act is actually supposed to cover. And how do we manage those costs in a universal system?

My comment about nationalization reflects what appears to be the belief of many posters that privatization is evil and only exists in a small way in the Health Care system. You know well enough that I'm not idealogically stuck on this issue. I'm open minded about cost effective solutions and meaningful discussion.

First, in my view of things, we need a viable small business sector that acts as the incubator for new economic projects and ideas, (and some by the nature of their limited "mom and pop" potential will ever be small), and getting such public assistance as this small business sector reasonably requires. (And all do.) But at some point, assuming the enterprise proves through the test of the marketplace that it is capable of and suitable to growth and expansion, and as the current "business welfare system" provides to this much vaunted "great man free enterprise system", continue the public nurturing of such enterprises, as need again, with tax concessions, development loan assistance, low interest bank loans, marketing, research and development assistance etc. and the list goes on, society needs to begin to look at these major growth potential businesses/enterprises differently. (In other words, business assistance continues as more or less currently usual, even in Great Man Capitalism.)

BUT, unlike the current "Big Capitalist System" that arises out of that small business base, there needs to be a point at which "the public" has a right to expect to begin recovering some "return" from the investments it makes, in a multitude of forms, from developing Big Enterprise. (And an environmentally and "national interest" rationalized system may see a scaling down go on here, at this heretofore "corporate" level.) And in my view this is where the social character of public and private investment needs to begin to similarly be realized, in the form of increasing trade union/labour, community, user/consumer group, and other stake holder (environmental) participation in the direction, management, and profit recovery from the "new social business model system". In short, the public investment that is constantly being made in "the business sector", again in a multitude of forms, often including reduced wage and income expectations in the early going as well, needs to have a "time-out" limit attached to it, where "new PUBLIC democratic model" concepts and principles need to begin to be applied to the economy, plant by plant and enterprise.

What exists currently with effective "monopoly private corporate control" over the commanding heights of the economy, whereby with the various forms of price, supply and marketing collusion that goes on formally and informally, is already an effective monopoly system that controls all these elements, inputs and outcomes. And this is so-called "free market enterprise". Which is utter and complete balderdash.

Continued next post...

when pharmacompanies charge you $100.oo for a $00.02 pill that doesn't work.when incompetent doctors cannot diagnose squat.when every hospital has dozens of accountants.

maybe someone will wake up.but as there are so many interests at stake.we will carry on killing innocent people and paying through the nose for medications that have absolutely no use but have to be paid for because of morons like Mulroney giving the pharmacompanies the farm.

incompetence,greed and sheer stupidity have put us between a rock and a hard place.

From previous post...

And not only does this go on at the simple level of the economy, but because the economy is what underpins the entire edifice/superstructure of the rest of society, including its politics, political institutions, and what passes for "democracy", those persons/corporate mandarins and nabobs who have secured effective control of that economy and its enterprises, are able by various means and manipulations as a consequence of their control over the purse strings of society, to control the outcomes that occur in these places as well. Proving that, in the engagement between economics and politics, it is economics that rules. It is the "not so velvet glove" manifestations of their effective tyranny over all of us and the whole of society, and how they can effectively over-rule the public will. It is the source of public cynicism and apathy itself.

It is why, regardless of what political party or "formal ideology" that takes up "formal/ritual power" in the structures of the state, the outcome is always "near" the same regardless of which; Liberal, Conservative or NDP. In the end, as I've raised here before, they all bend the knee to the same set of masters-, those who control the purse strings of the state and nation.

This is fundamentally why we say to all ye rightwingnutters, take your whining and crying somewhere there is greater gullibility, and there are many out there, and less understanding of how the economy and especially current capitalism really works. Here, your simplistic almost childish understanding of the nature of things political and economic is quickly seen through and becomes as quickly boring.

Rightnutter,

I always find it amusing when people suggest to me that I should take my pills, or medications, when they can not offer any logical argument.

It shows that they can't imagine life without them, just as they can't without their daily dose of ideological propaganda. Unlike you guys, I don't need, or take any of either.

Now let me tell a little story to you brainwashed ideologues:

There was a gas price war in this area about 20 + years ago, with prices under .10 cents per litre. I was in town with a couple of barrels on my truck to get some gas from the local Esso wholesaler, who was still selling it at the current wholesale prices, much higher than the gas stations.

As I was talking to the lady at the counter, I could hear somebody talking on the phone in the office. The door opened and the owner of the agency came out with a big grin. He knew me and told me that the district Esso rep was having a conference call with the other companies and they all agreed to end the price war at 12 noon.

I jumped into my truck and drove to the nearest Petrocan station and barely got onto the platform, with perhaps 2-3 cars behind me, when the attendants set up barricades and stopped all the waiting vehicles. It was 12 noon. On my way home all the prices at all the stations were back to the original. So much for price competition.

I've been working with and in the offices, conference rooms and homes of the captains of industries for 22 years and have heard them talking to each other on the phone, or in person, or to me, from 1957 to 79 and I could write a book on the corruption I have witnessed, still swallowed by brainwashed fools as "free enterprise".

I've designed and built furniture for their tax deductible corporate whorehouses, called hospitality suites, worked hundreds of hours with employees who were doing work on company time, billed furniture for their houses as office furniture and so on and on.

I was having tea with the CEO VIP of a multinational paper company, who later became the Lt. Governor of BC. They bought up a small fine hardwood plywood maker and ran it into the ground, so I complained that we lost the best plywood money can buy. The VIP started laughing and said: "Oh Ed, you just don't understand these things"

So we were left with only two makers, Weldwood and Sauder, both produciong junk, but in corporate circles it was good free enterprise.

Another big, well known wheel came into my shop once, walking around and reminiscing about a beautiful, fine woodworking factory he used to have, but had to put into bankruptcy. So I asked him, if it was such a good business, why he broke it? He also laughed and said:" I was making too much money with my other businesses and had to write off something!" 60 tradesmen out of jobs.

I was just a small guy who had to make a living and to make it I had to go along with their orders, or go hungry, but I hated every minute of it and that was why I quit. And then, the good conservative capitalist who bought my business, fraudulently never paid for it, but it was perfectly legal under free enterprise under business laws.

So, get some factual experience kids, before trying to lecture me on the joys of capitalism, or communism. All the bloody same crime waves for ordinary people trying to make a living.

Ed Deak.

Capital punishment is when government is taxing you on your capital, for the money stolen from you, goes into competition with you, has deficit and taxes you even more to cover it. Could anyone give me Canadian example of the thing or activity which government (Federal of Provincial) does well? Please save your computer if you can only think of CBCTV or Post Office. There is no worst monopoly than government monopoly or government supported monopoly like Marketing Boards (little Soviet Unions). It is apparently against the federal law to start private letter delivery unless you charge at least three times as much as Canada Post; you can not start dairy farm in British Columbia, because most of the quotas and permits are given only to Quebec. Now I know why in Quebec, even rich people can send children to $5 a day daycare and most High Schools there have swimming pools, it is called equalization payments. Another Sodom and Gomery affair but at the much larger scale.

Back from the trenches , I'm not sure if this was mentioned in any posts but it certainly gets lost in translation. This entire trip to Europe is pure theatre, a nice break for Gordo and crew.

We do now have a free trade agreement with the UK or Sweden, we have one with the US

Called NAFTA, when NAFTA was formed heath care (big business in the US) was kept out of the
agreement due to our universal care etc, BUT the clause in NAFTA states that if we reopen the agreement by our actions or laws the US will have first dibs, do you honestly think that the giant US insurance companies and profiteers will sit and watch while the UK and others set up shot.

This trip has one purpose, to pacify and make the transition less scary for Canadians.

Get really for high heath premiums, more expensive care, and sweet profits on the backs of the ill.

Oh and Latarnik

BC liquor stores, BC Rail before privatized, ICBC (record profits) BC Hydro, BC Gas (before privatized)Canadian Public heath care(shows better results in every category for lower cost) should I go on or am
I interrupting FOX news or CKNW .

Military, health care until it was deliberately shafted and put into crisis mode for "free" enterprise, and is still more cost effective than the US model, fire and other community services, highway maintenance and management (worse since privatized), education (being put in crisis as per health care-, same story), community policing (though also being cash starved to provide tax cuts to the wealthy), food safety (though also now being understaffed and financed for ditto ruling class serving interests. In general all things that underpin and provide security and infrastructure for the rest of the social and economic system.

Indeed, though I despise much of capitalism, it actually performs better subject to public regulation, and with public assistance and control on a number of important fronts.

Rightwingnutters really do have to think before opening their yaps and speaking to quickly and without forethought, Latarnik. Especially in a leftie forum where they are outclassed.

This is a leftie forum? Thought it was public

The long and short of it is that when people get into power they get corrupted. No matter who, or what kind of power over others, it will be sooner, or later misused.

But when the power of special interests is supported by laws, as it is under communist and capitalist regimes, basically the same collectivizing ruling classes, then really look out.

Unbridled power is corrupting and there's no point in waving different coloured flags as the saviours. All ideologies stink.

The main point is that there must always be a strong public examination, accountability and control over power, whether it is in the hands of governments, or private enterpreneurs.

I never have been a member of any marketing board and have never received any government subsidies in any of my businesses, apart from minor tax breaks on land and fuel.

I don't particularly like Marketing Boards, but without them the wheat, milk, egg, etc industries would be in the hands of 2-3 multinationals, as the beef industry is being controlled now through price fixing at the end of the suppliers and sales. There still are thousands of ranchers and farmers growing beef, but we're under the thumbs of a few multinational corporations, who control prices.

It has cost us about $4,000 per year from our OAPs to keep our cattle through the BSE years. Now, we may break even. In other words, we're not doing it for money, but as a matter of conscience for food production and to keep ourselves in good health.

Has anybody reading this ever been through long periods of starvation, down to the bone, when all they could think and dream about was food ?

If not, you wouldn't understand what it means to produce healthy food and see people enjoy it.

The same, as it means to doctors and other health workers to help people without some profiteering monster whipping them from behind.

I have worked in a hospital with health providers when their and my only payment was some thin soup with a small piece of bread and a bed to sleep on. But we did our job and saved lives. Try to explain this to doctors who think that quarter of a million per year is not enough, or to "investors", who sit at home on their asses and expect society to heap profits at them.

Ed Deak.

Good point. The "health" care monster that wee have in Canada is the last bastion of a pure ideaology that has proven itself to not work called socialism.

There is no way pumping more money into that monster is going to make it work any better. We have tried that over and over. No government in Canada, be in NDP or Raving Monster Loonie, has successfully shored up the system by shovelling more public money at it. The present system does not work. Just anyone working in it and they will tell you that as well that sending more money to it is akin to sending it down a black hole.

So what is the left solution? Well, the only solution that they have in their dogmatic, conservative little minds: pump more money into it. Where to get that money? Anybody but themselves.

The reason the left is so wild about introducing any kind of accountability to the health sector (the biggest business in Canada, by the way) is that reform would further detract from their desire for the left to own, regulate and decide what is "best" for us in every aspect of our daily lives, from the time we wake up to the time we go to bed. They only reason socialism has been such a failure is that it has never been complete enough, right?

"This is a leftie forum? Thought it was public"

We're just tolerant folks. :-) On the other hand, wingnut forums shut you out if you spend too much time disagreeing with them. They have this notion of democracy that stands on its head, you see.

"Where to get that money? Anybody but themselves."

The private banks just print paper money as they please, to finance capitalisms "enterprises", and their own profits and that of their wealthy friends.

The WW2 wartime Finance Minister, a Mr. Abbot it was I believe, when asked how a small country like Canada was going to come up with all the cash needed to finance the huge war effort it was being asked to make, said in words to the effect, " All that is really needed are raw material resources and labour. When there is something that absolutely has to be done, like a war fought, it is simply up to government to create the money to facilitate the bringing of the two together."

And indeed, that is what the Government of Canada did. With a successful result.

Now, even a rightwingnutter should be able to get the sense of what is being said, and how that operates here. Paper is just paper afterall. The world hasn't been on the gold standard for a long time-, so it doesn't even have to be backed up with gold anymore.

The only reason "capitalist controls" are placed on it otherwise, is to maintain the control over money in the hands of the corporate wealthy, and to control the amounts in the hands of the working class, so that they have to work for Capital in order to feed, clothe and house themselves.

Like I say, you nutters really do get consistently outclassed here, because largely you simply buy into "the systems" propaganda machine and don't really think about these issues very much for yourselves. You just "believe", spout off, cut and paste.

Wrong again, honey! That was CD Howe I referred to above, not Abbot.

C.D. Howe was a cabinet minister for 22 years, first in the government of Mackenzie King, and then in the government of Louis St. Laurent. Nicknamed the "Minister of Everything," C.D. Howe was forthright and forceful, and more interested in getting things done than in policy. He mobilized Canada for World War II, turning the Canadian economy from one based primarily on agriculture to one based on industry, and after the war turned it into a consumer economy spurred by veterans.

WM, if you think that you won't be "pumping more money into it" without our socialist universal system you're dreaming. Look into what the good to best insurance plans of the US cost ...then calculate the 14 - 20% of your income that the top three of the European examples pay. You sound like so many spoiled, ignorant Canadains who think that healthcare is/should be cheap.

Now, as to the actual topic of the GC tour, if I thought they'd gone there to really look for improvements, I lost this thought when I heard that they weren't taking anyone from the levels of our system who'd know(with the intimancy necessary) how we do it here.
I'm with Frank that to look for improvements from various options is only sensible...but that, I'm willing to bet my best paycheck of the year on, is not what is going to come of it. So like it/me or not my advice to you is get ready to start and continue to dig deep in your bank account 'cause you ain't seen/paid nothin' yet.

WM, what would be your solution that doesn't cost any money? And go easy on the rhetoric will ya, the Russians aren't coming.

Coyote, geez buddy you're on a roll. Good posts. Especially the above one.

Latarnik, for god's sake man, when you were a youngster did your mom lock you in a motel room with nothing to read except Ted Byfield's "Reports"?

NLN,

I think we need managers and not somebody's campaign manager for the north-east keeping the books. We need more trained people and that should be the first priority for the budget otherwise we'll quickly burn out those we have.

Ya I know that, I was just being "internet-ty".

Coyote,

If you look at taxation and government spending as a percentage of GDP in 1945 to now, you will find Canada spen less thereof 1945 than it does now. Significantly so, actually. Further, private consumption was severely curtailed during the war, keeping inflation fairly low.

It was during WW2 that governments learned that they could spend and tax in sums that were previously thought of as impossible. Even in 1944 Canada never exceeded 25%. Now it is over 50%.

BLONDE, we have the only system like it in the world and it simply does not work. I am 100% for universal free health care but the status quo is not working. If a private company can deliver a better service at the same price, what is to fear? Shovelling money into the status quo have proven time and time again not to solve anything.

Oh, the competion would make the unions accountable to somebody. Can't have that.

WM, you and JIm have both accused us on the left of not having a bag of really cool whiz-bang new ideas for health-care.

I agree, we don't. We instead want to get back to a model that worked pretty well and don't think there is some cool new whiz-bang idea to save us.

However, since you and JIm seem to believe he right has one, please tell us what it is. Don't be so coy, just say it. Even a link to it (not to a discussion attacking the pinkos please) would do.

I'd love to read it, really truly I would. Why all the secrecy? Either of you, please just tell us for the love of god.

that's "the right" and not "he right" of course.

Typos left in on purpose...

How about making the CEOs and executives making accountable for somebody, except for more and more profits by the shareholders? Or are they the untouchable aristocracies of our age?

I had a good laugh when a CEO by the name of Roth, I believe, ran Nortel into the ground a few years back, so the company made him accountable and fired him.

His departure was made accompanied with a $70. million welfare cheque, while thousands of the company's fired workers were lining up at the foodbanks.

Of course, aristocracies and religions have always been tax free, and unaccountable, so there's nothing new under the sun.

Can't you brainwashed ideologues come up with something more original than always complaining about unions ? Of course, many of the leaders are bums, but why this one sided refrain ?

Ed Deak.

i know. let's throw more money into the system. that always fixes things. just ask glennie.

So Elliot, you have a plan that won't cost anything?

Perhaps taking money out of the system is the answer??

It gives me countless headaches listening to private system cheerleaders chant that innovation and efficiency can only come from dismantling the public system. We have just seen, in Alberta of all places, a pilot project that reduced the wait time for hip and knee replacement surgery from 47 weeks to 4.7 and reduced the length of hospital stay post-op from 6.2 to 4.3 days. Anyone who knows how expensive it is to stay in a comfy hospital bed and eat all that yummy food will know the savings of cutting 2 days off a stay. This is an example of working within the publically funded system to solve a problem of wait times and patient outcomes (which were great in the streamlined project). I'm sure that the government of Alberat in its ramming through of the thirdway would like to forget that this project exists.

The idea that introducing private, for-profit health care will save the system (the government, or just its citizens) money is ludacris. Private companies exist to make money. They keep or increase their margins by either increasing revenues, by increasing the cost to the payee, or by cutting costs (just like Campbell did when he tore up hospital cleaners contracts and hired cheap labor). There is no proof that this will translate into better quality care for patients, which is the ultimate goal of any health care provider.

I have not heard one explaination yet as to how introducing private insurance will solve the ills of our health care system. Remember that most doctors are private professionals already, so private delivery of health care has been around for decades. The current issue is whether or not to allow the wealthy to buy private insurance and get faster access to higher quality care (should everyone have access to the highest quality care?).

We are seeing innovation and efficiency coming from within the public system. But, the idealogues in power (just as I am an idealogue in writing this) disagree with how resources should be distributed. If we agree (and maybe some of us don't) that health is universal right, and if we agree that government should be an expression of public will and good, then is not universal health a public will and a public good? Why is it so bad if then the government (which is supposed to be our collective expression) pays for it so that access is equal?

That's my ramblings.

Leifsok, I couldn't agree with you more. Your ramblings should be the doctrine of any government/soceity.

As I've been reading these postings/comments and trying to be innovative like the private companies are when they approach governments for P3s - I thought they should pitch the real name:

P3 does not accurately reflect what they are. P4s is what they really are, never-ending Problematic Public-Private Partnerships.

P3, or PPP, means "Plundering the Public Purse"

Ed Deak.

Frank, you are right. You have actually answered your own question, and don't even know it.

And the outcome of that "sudden realization", which coincidentally occurred along with the system's rising fear of "Communism" and the return of thousands of veterans from war, who were disinclined to listen to more "private enterprise" bullshite, and the resulting increase in public spending and money creation by government was... the modern "consumer" driven capitalism. Which, though it has resulted in many environmental and other "waste" problems, actually worked very well until... catch this on the way by... the rising rightwingnutter Neocons that arrive with the new Neo-liberal economic theories of Raygun and the Iron Lady think tanks decide, it all has to be undone, more favouring to shoring up the wealth and control over society of the ruling class.

Which leads directly to where we are today of course, a growing social and economic crisis within society that is a consequence of the haywire economic and political theories of the neoconservatives. Though they would if they could, actually blame it on the left, such as yourself consistently attempts to do in here so-called WM (not).

It is yourselves, perversely enough, who have undone what had become a more or less effective working model of capitalism, rightwingnutters.

(And, as an aside, we all have our ideologies, even if they are more or less "privately held and evolved" ones. They being, in my view, mere systems of ideas, or an more or less organized view of the world, of varying degrees of "objectivity". Even my friend Deak has a unique ideology of his own, in this context. And a rather effective and rational "ideolody" it is. I would say. :-)

That is obviously not Frank referred to in the opening of my piece above, but the so-called "Working Man".

This piece is long on taking shots and shooting arrows, and short on alternatives. It's clear the current system isn't sustainable by throwing more and more money at it. The premier should be applauded at the very least for taking a first-hand role in seeking out solutions. Whether he gets spoon-fed the wrong information is certainly another issue; however, I would rather see balanced reporting include alternatives, instead of a campaign to find all the nay-sayers of other countries' systems, which is easy enough.

Hey, I'll be happy if he's able to get through Stockholm, Oslo, Paris and London without getting pulled over and taking a breathalyzser. Hopefully he's got his driver over there.

Secondly, our much adored premier is no health expert. I thought we're supposed to hire people who know what they're doing and then they tell our elected leadership what their options are?

The idea that the premier is sitting in a meeting in London with his brother-in-law and designing our new health care system on the back of a hotel napkin makes me want to buy property near Hank's Beach and live in ignorant bliss.

Is that actually clear? We lack trained people in the system. I agree that throwing a million dollars at an operating room with no one to staff it isn't going to work but isn't the solution to train more people which costs money?

The only solution I've seen from the right, they're still hiding the really cool ideas I guess, is to remove more people from the public system. Do you think this will work?

Big Pharma has been a primary recipient of 'more and more money' in the most recent decade. Better technology at higher costs are also one reason for higher costs. Are you suggesting that we limit these two costs? Whenever a decision is made to not cover a particular drug, it is met with a lot of anger from the public. Really, we can't have it two ways. Either we shut out some of these new fangled drugs (which kill a lot of Canadians with side effects), or we keep spending more money. Same with the technology. This 'more and more money' has not been wasted then has it?

And ylareina, you really are naive if you think Gordo is on a journey for the greater good.

The best part part of this whole deal is how I will pay thousands that I can't afford, where my taxes had paid before, to keep gordo's bother in law's teenage m!str@sses in baubles and trinkets!!!

Good Morning, WM, you say

"We have the only system like in the world"

So you have a problem with standing out in a crowd? Thats okay, I can relate.

"...It simply doesn't work"

With that I disagree. Large parts of our system work well. We, however, have some severe stresses on the structure.

"I'm 100% for free universal healthcare"

Good, I'm glad to hear it.

"If a private company can provide a better service for the same price, whats to fear?"

Please name an example of another system that does so? The European countries who are at the top of the list cost significantly more than what we spend. The Americans even more for radically less.

"Oh, that would make the unions accountable to someone. Can't have that."

Is that a shot at me? Didn't we once go over the red tape and grinding you/us for pennies the gov't does to those who work for it? Either way you're pretty naive if you think that any of the unions can't organize the staff with private clinics. The only way to keep the unions out is to treat and reward the staff so well they have no need.

Anyways, I'm not against any changes at all like Leifsok says the people in the system (Alberta) are capable of knowing and suppling creative repairs. The gov't and righties and union haters just have to get off their high horses and acknowledge us as a valuable resource and treat us accordingly.

"It's clear the current system isn't sustainable by throwing more and more money at it."

Frank has already made the point in responding to this I think. No, it is not clear that throwing money at this problem of health care and the other social services, will not resolve it. Indeed, I think it is clear money/social resources are precisely what has been taken out of it, in order to provide tax cuts to the already wealthy, and need to be put back into these systems.

Neocon ideologues hope of course, as part of their service to the ruling class, that by repeating this "big lie" often enough, that the "belief" will take hold in the public mind-, and indeed has to a large degree unfortunately.
It is a choice neoconservatives have made, in all parties, including the Liberals and NDP, to remove public monies/resources from the public benefitting systems, and transfer that wealth into ruling class pockets instead.

It was a mistaken notion and needs to be revisited.

If the object of the exercise was to strengthen ruling class control over society, and their coffers, it has worked. If the object was to improve these public systems and society for the greater benefit and strenfthening of "egalite" for alll, it has been an abyssmal failure.

Throw Money at The Public Service and Levelling Systems, and [I]Not The Nefarious, Bloodsucking Schemes of The Ruling Class Wealthy[/I]!

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, rightwingnutter darlin's. :-)

i like how the "give us the answer crowd" never listens.

they are usually the ones milking the system.when you have a CASH COW like the Medical System,EVERYBODY wants a teat.

look at the people lined up with all their pails.

i'm alright jack! i got mine.

sound familiar

It might interest people involved in this fascinating dialogue and the journalist who wrote the original piece above that the head of the National Health Service in Britain has resigned today (Tuesday March 7).

From the UK Press Association (like CP):

(First three paragraphs)
The national health service chief executive, Sir Nigel Crisp, today expressed his sadness at quitting his job after five years, as he acknowledged responsibility for the financial disarray facing the NHS.

Sir Nigel, 54, who is also permanent secretary at the Department of Health, has decided to take early retirement, it was announced today.

He acknowledged "not everything has gone well" during his tenure as head of the NHS and that he was "particularly saddened" by the recent financial problems facing the NHS.

For the rest of the story read: http://society.guardian.co.uk/publicfinances/story/0,,1725581,00.html

Sir Nigel has been granted a peerage by Tony Blair, so that should soften the blow of his quitting. He'll be Lord Nigel now...

sir nigel? isn't their a song about "taking care of Nigel" ?

see,they do take care of their own,REGARDLESS.

and screw the little people !

Sorry Coyote, your comments are too irrational to be believable. If you want greater collective control of the goods and services that we use then form a collective. As far as I can tell the current system works as well for as many people as anything you've suggested.

Jim, acutally it's "making plans for Nigel" sorta like this forum.

making...taking...

whoop...de ...dooo

still a GOLDEN PARACHUTE !

Jim - you want a golden parachute? Put yourself in an circumstance that gives you an opportunity to get one........

i'll keep jumpin with nylon ,thanx...

like the rest of those that know how to do things the right way!

The logical conclusion to today's accelerated health research and development is that one day everything will be treatable, but it will cost more than the entire GDP of the economy to pay for it, because the money is going to investors in the end, anyway.

Private health care has already been here for a long time, because the drug companies are for-profit.

For-profit health care facilities are certainly dangerous for the same reason. Look what's driving them.

The only answer in the long run is a completely different model, where the driving factors behind the system are humanitarian rather than "profit" or even "efficiency". "Pharmaceuticals Without Borders" and "Medical Supplies without Borders", together with a properly funded public service delivery system, seems like the only reasonable possibility.

ylareina...BINGO !

humanitarian health care..a totaly new model.

see,there are answers...but it's just gonna waste money on our slaves...oh! sorry people,not slaves,i mispoke there.

oh my! i iz sech a putz sometimes..

Thanks for bringing that up Jim Beam!! I thought everyone had forgotten about Mulroney and his kicking-Canada-in-the-ass free trade agreement which kissed the asses of the U.S. pharma companies...

oops - pardon me...

The additional charges for drugs was a result of the U.S. companies crying that they weren't getting a proper amount of money for their drug research. And we all know about the drug research scam?

Private and for-profit aren't necessarily the same thing. Besides, there are hundreds of industries that come in contact with the Health system that are profit driven. It's what makes them competitve, provides return for their shareholders and jobs for their employees. Not sure how that's a bad thing.....

One thing I'm really disappointed about is the surplus magnetic tape drives that were sold in Surrey by Crown Assets Disposal. According to the Vancouver Sun the whole lot went for less than half a grand. You'd have thought the personal health data on those tapes could have been shopped around some and brought in a bit more cash. Across the border I bet a real handsome profit could have been had!

Have to agree with you there; it's when somehow the health-care system ends up paying what seems like way beyond normal market price (for surgical gloves, hospital beds etc.), and there's not enough competition in the system, that make me feel gouged for my tax dollar (of which I, like you I'm sure, pay plenty).

i can't remember how many tapes or their size but i do remember saying ya gotta be kidding ...$300.oo

10 1/2 inch tape ,good quality one pass,usually 5 to 10 bucks AMERICAN on ebay(i'm an old reel to reel fan)

don't hold me to this,but i think it was somewhere around 500 tapes and those are usually the pro sized 10 1/2 inch, goverments use,and probably more cause i wasn't listening til i heard the PRICE...i was wondering more if my files were in there ?

Beamer:
Can't say about your files. Minister is very red-faced in the Legislature though!

Speaking of savings. In the US, up to 50 Medicare patients on dialysis frequently get to use the same diffusion diaphragm before it's discarded. They like to reuse surgical tubing, catheters and other appliances too.

Oh, almost forgot: spare parts - human bone, skin etc, is being burgled from cadavers in New York (Alistair Cooke was a prominent example recently) and sold. Recipients of this foul stuff frequently end up with a variety of noxious diseases. What a surprise! This is the world we're headed for if Stevie and Gordo have their way with us.

It's this pathetic idealogical crap that makes the Tyee better reading for comic relief than intelligent discussion.

one o my fave writers edgar allan poe prepared me for this world.

my mom used to say ,why don't you read your hesse or some goethe...and i would say...ma!...they are so boring...poe is the man

well, i was right...poe is/was the man...cause after reading him , nothing people do...surprises me...

not JEFFERY DAHLMER...not GEORGE BUSH,ET AL

nevermore,quoth the raven...still raise the hair on the back of my neck...

NoLeftNutter

How is that ideological? That's what private, for-profit health care is all about: finding lots of new and innovative (as well as old and sloppy) ways to return value to the shareholder.

The US is the avatar of that kind of medical care and that's where these guys want to take us. How is that ideological? That’s just common sense. Our medical system has been starved badly enough as it is, surely we know enough not to go any further into a real hell-hole. Maybe you’re not old enough to know what health care in this country was like before Medicare in 1965 – believe me, it wasn’t pretty. Some things are worth fighting for.

But, if you want to use someone else's catheter when they operate on your prostate, don't let me stop you.

Don't believe me? Start reading, last weekend's NYTimes would be a good place to start. Let me know if you can't find the Alistair Cooke cadaver story.

# 1 cause of bankruptcies in the US, private heath costs.

44 million US citizens have zero heath care.

# 1 cost to all employers in the US, heath care insurance for employees.

Many studies have shown private care is up to 5 times more expensive and medical results are worse.

We have a free trade agreement with the US not the UK or any other country, If we go private the US will have dibs via NAFTA,

Greatest Canadian, Tommy Douglas, see him on CBC tonight,

When Ralf Kline, Mike Harris or Gordo become the greatest Canadian come talk to me, maybe the greatest
dorks

G West - it's idealogical because none of the actual partiicipants you name are planning to take us the direction that you state. It's idealogical becasue you wrongly state that the only interest the persons named have is in private for-profit Health Care. It's idealogical because the only inforamtion you've brought to this discussion is how bad the US system might be for some people. Although it is apparently better than our system for others. It's idealogical because you say things like - "Our medical system has been starved badly enough as it is, surely we know enough not to go any further into a real hell-hole." when in BC we're spending about 4 Billion, with a B, more dollars a year than we were 5 years ago on Health Care. Lastly, it's idealogical because, by defending the status quo, it raises the question of which special interest group currently feasting off the Health Care system you represent? It's OK to be idealogically driven but it largely semms like a waste of bandwidth.

Apparently better for whom?
Not the 41 - 44 million people who have no health insurance in the states- not for the retired people who can't afford drugs and come to Canada to get them every few months - not for the people with chronic illness who live 8 - 10% shorter lives than comparable individuals in this country. Not for the children and mothers in the US that have a significantly lower survival rate than we do here in Canada. I could go on.
That is not ideology, it's common sense!

Where have you been while the government in Victoria has been doing everything it can to subvert the delivery of health care to the people of this province. Try finding a long-term care bed in the interior. Try waiting 18 months for a hip transplant. All while the government is delivering tax reductions to its friends - we need to put more money into health care, not shuffle it off to the private sector. If we spent as much per person on health care as the US does, kept the system we have now and made the necessary improvements to reflect better training and technology, the problems could be dealt with easily.
How is that ideological? Give me a break - you don't know what you're talking about.
I'm not defending the status quo for God's sake; I'm attacking it. The status quo is for starving the system and then selling it off to your friends. What garbage!
You’re the one that’s spouting conservative ideology.

when the health system parts a couple of sixty years and the wife/mother/woman dies alone and a week later the husband/father/man dies of heartbreak.

SOMETHING IS GROSSLY WRONG.

put yourself in the sons and daughters seat...

think of your mother dying alone because of some civil servant sending out an order without any thought to do something so disgusting,because of MONEY.

HOW MUCH MONEY DID THEY SAVE DOING THAT ?

Never enough, Thomas49, never enough.

I agree the system is broken but I sure don't see the symptom you describe above. We have never spent more on Health Care yet the outocmes aren't improving. Seems to me like the system needs an overhaul. As for idealogical, every time someone suggests changes to our existing system the idealogues go off ranting about a "US style" system I can't think of one public figure in this country supporting a "US style" system. What I think most people want is an efficient, universally accessable, single payer system and it would be nice if people received an incentive for not needlessly burdening the system. I don't car how it's delivered. That means having some dialogue about alternatives. What's wrong with that?

apparently the right wing figures the taxes we pay for infrastructure,policing and medical care should go for their guccis,beemers and europen holidays...like the one GORDO and his buddies are on...

spend the money CORRECTLY,we all can live comfortably and in good health...

then again the right wing has a short memory span...try to remember your buddy BRIAN MULRONEY giving away the farm to the PHARMACOMPANIES...

try to remember every drug made will be used...even if it doesn't work...then remember the CLASS ACTION SUITS against those pharmacompanies that kill your family members for a few dollars profit.

try to remember not every doctor is COMPETENT and that more INCOMPETENTS are out there than can be caught...because they POLICE THEMSELVES.

monies fly out the doors of hospitals with DOZENS OF ADMINISTRATORS...

there is so much waste it is unbelievable,but the medical system is a CASH COW to the RIGHT WINGED SOCIOPATHS...they care nothing but how much money they can milk from the system...

we need a system that takes care of sick people and when that happens...then pay the doctors !

til then ,DOCTORS ,are nothing more than miners digging for gold when they look for what ails you...

NoLeftNutter
Dialogue all you want.

The problems with the system have been pretty well covered in the Romanow Report. The real problem is the fact that the dollars aren't there to keep the system running the way it should. Building in a 10 - 15 % minimum profit for many services that are now non-profit (however badly managed) is just going to make the system more costly and less universally available. Medical care will become more exclusive and subject to dollar as well as shortage pressures.

The corporate structure in this country has taken full advantage of universal health care to increase productivity, competitiveness and profitability - if you need any evidence look at the difference in the financial well-being of car manufacturing in Canada as opposed to the US.

So, we have corporate Canada using the advantages of universal health care to cut its costs and increase its profitability in real terms at the same time that the sycophants in Ottawa and the provincial capitals are tripping over themselves to reduce the share of budgetary revenues that come from corporate tax. You wonder why health care is starving - because the corporate structure in this country is massively overweight.

In the long run everybody, rich and poor, starts out and ends up in a hospital and they often spend a lot of time getting some other kind of medical services in the interim too. That unites us all as citizens and the provision of good medical services is the single most important domestic requirement of a decent fair society. Without it, we're just a bunch of pretenders and we’re headed back to the Depression when both my grandparents suffered for years and died in their homes, one of them from gangrene, because they couldn’t afford better medical care.

Corporate Canada has been doing very well, thank you, and it is doing it, in a very real way, on the backs of the health care of all the citizens in this country. It's time it stepped up and paid its share. Two-tier health care, for profit health care, choice in health care – call it what you like, it’s all the same – a disaster.

Tax policy in this country needs to change. If you make income (subject to certain deductions and allowable expenses that ought to be determined according to certain social policy objectives) you should pay tax on that income at the same rate. Whether it's corporate income, personal income, interest income or capital gains income shouldn’t make a damn bit of difference.

That's not the case now - and that's the problem. That’s not ideology, that’s common sense. Your politicians aren’t telling you the truth and you’re afraid to ask the real questions.

Did anyone watch the 3hr documentry "Corporation" last night on Knowlege tv?
That's the real truth

BC Dude
Naw, I missed it. THink it was made in Vancouver, wasn't it?

This is a flat out fallicy most companies in competitive environments earn 3-5% of the gross sales as profit. And, if they are able to provide the service effectivley for less money and earn a profit, how is that a bad thing?

Everyone beneifts from our universal Health Care, not just coprorations. When corporations pay more tax where do you think the money comes from? Either employees, shareholders or customers. In any case, that means you and me.

How can the corporate structure in this country be "massively overweight" and still competitive internationally?

There's very little evidence that you can't have choice or for profit delivery and still be cost effective. Brian Day's clinic apparently can perform surgeries at 60% of the cost of the public system, and make a profit. Again, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Frankly, most people especially those here, would disagree with that thinking and are more in favour of a progressive rather than a flat tax system.

I have no problem sorting out the truth from the BS and I can tell which side of the line your comments fall on.

I never said a flat tax. Tax rates should be graduated - they just ought to be blind about where the money comes from, period. I don't care if you want to put all corporate earnings through an income trust and tax it in the hands of the unit holders - just treat every dollar earned as a dollar earned and no special breaks for anybody. And for god's sake don't go with Harper's administrative nightmare of allowing capital gains to pass from pillar to post as long as they're reinvested within a certain time period. The wealthy get way too many tax breaks now - you may not want to admit it - but that's the truth.

You might want to check the profit figures in a lot of HMO's and medical delivery corporations in the states by the way.

And, have you looked at corporate profits and executive remuneration lately? Especially when compared to the average industrial wage.

Brian Day is piggy backing on the public system. He's a pirate, not a hero.

Two tier health care is a social and moral trainwreck, period. I notice you didn't take up Romanow's challenge either.

Furthermore, if you can't debate a question without resorting to remarks like your last sentence I have no more time for you - you're not really interested in debate.

G West
"Corporation" is available on DVD @ your local library, it's well worth the time as it answers pretty well all these blogs about our lives health care and why the big rush to privatize all publicly funded utilities etc

Let's see, where to begin? My impression of the Romanow report is that he had a pre-determined conclusion in mind and then reported the information that supported that conclusion. I didn't respond to your comment earlier becasue I see his report as defense of the status quo in contradiction of your statement - "I'm not defending the status quo for God's sake; I'm attacking it."

I accused you of BS after this comment -

And like many of the lefty idealogues you make irrational statements like the following that set off my BS meter -

I'm not surpised that further discussion is beyond you, apparently seeing past your idealogical bent is beyond you as well.

BC Dude
Thanks, dude!

NoLeftNutter

If you ‘have the impression’ the Romanow report just defended the status quo you obviously haven't read it - why am I not surprised?

I have. Maybe we'll talk again when you have.

You think it's irrational to suggest that politicians don't tell the truth?
That statement doesn't ever deserve the time it takes to refute. You’re as bought and paid for as most of the politicians in this country.

I don't have the time to point you to where you can find the answers to questions about corporate income and the average industrial wage - or to the change in the proportion of total government revenue provided by aggregate corporate taxes over the past 25 years. If you are so incurious as to suggest that what I'm saying isn't based on verifiable information there is no point in my reading anything you post. As I said a couple of posts back, you're ideological, and now you've demonstrated that you're ignorant as well.

Come back when you know something and we'll talk. You're wasting my time.

G West

I never claimed that they did. You suggested that I was "afraid to ask the real questions."

Huh?

Frankly, I never indicated that I was looking for that informaton. I was looking for an answer to the question - who do you think pays the freight when corporations pay higher taxes? And, if you want a share of the corprate largesse then join the rat race....Oh sorry, you just want to share in the spoils, not take the risks or do the work.....

Yep, a lefty idealogue all over.

Nutter says
As for ideological, every time someone suggests changes to our existing system the idealogues go off ranting about a "US style" system I can't think of one public figure in this country supporting a "US style" system.

Oh course no public figure would suggest supporting a US style system, it would be political death as no Canadian
wants that system. That's what us in the know are fighting against , that kind of system because we know and its law. that's what we will have and you cannot go back. Now turn off CKNW and listen to some common sense. Stop the Bill Good , Davie Burner, That prick Adler rants, and listen to a basic fact

Under NAFA we agreed to remove heath care as we did not have the same system as the US and we wanted to protect our system. BUT their is the clause that if we open up our system the US will have first priority, get your
head straight , it will not be the UK it will be the monster to the south. Once the gates are open its over,

Stop saying theirs no more money, we are awash in money, we have some huge welfare bums in Canada

1972, when NDP leader David Lewis wrote his book about corporate welfare bums, corporations were paying 21% of government tax revenues. By 1992, they were paying 7%. In 1991, corporate tax breaks amounted to a staggering $90 billion dollars, more than the combined amount spent on Medicare, unemployment insurance, old age security, education, welfare and all other social programs.

Some folks are getting huge welfare checks, Bye the way 75 % of all Canadians work for small companies with less than 12 employees , companies who do not get government hand outs. The sky would not fall if TELUS and a few
others paid a higher tax rate, god I'm tired of the right wing chicken little's who bow to their masters.

I want tax cuts and better service, I pay to much tax already, who is not pulling thier load,

noleftnutter.
No it's a cinch you didn't come here to learn anything. What you did do is leave a pretty clear impression of what an idiot you are. There's a young lady called godsChild(sic) who hangs out in the thread beneath the fish farms story. You and she should get together - the results would be interesting.

Stuart - I never favoured corporate welfare. I dislike the CAW and Bombardier as much as anybody. Question still stands - who foots the bill when companies have to pay higher taxes? BTW, I work for one of those 75% companies....

G West - another pleasant element of the Tyee. Disagree and it's pretty easy to draw the ire of Fiat, or Coyote, or brain or you. Frankly, it makes for interesing sport......

NoLeftNutter
dude, I tried. You're the one who started this off by calling me names, remember?

I took that to mean that you wanted a discussion. But, you don't know anything. You haven't read the Romanow report. You don't know anything about the profit structure of health care in the US. You don't know anything about the changing relative tax burden of corporations or how universal health care already contributes to Canadian corporate competitiveness. You don't understand why cherry picking specific types of surgical services to offer in private clinics is profitable at the expense of the public system. You don't understand the relative levels of executive compensation and the average industrial wage.

I spent a good 30 minutes trying to establish a civil discourse with you. It was a waste of time. End of story - I wish I had the 30 minutes back, I could have taken the dog for a walk before it started to rain.

Good bye!

Okay nutter, I know you think the sky would fall but take note.

Who ultimately bears the burden for the billions of tax dollars corporations pay each year is difficult to determine. The subject has been debated by economists for decades. The tax bill might be paid by consumers through higher prices. Employees can have their salaries or benefits cut. Or shareholders may take the hit via reduced earnings and dividends.

Perhaps corporate taxes cost all these parties something.

The fading of corporate taxation helps stock prices. That largely benefits the upper-income Americans that own the bulk of corporate shares, and widens an already large income gap between rich and poor. It also means we must raise individual income taxes, including those on the less-than-rich.

You see nutter, The subject has been debated by economists for decades and they usually play the sky is falling scenario, jobs will be lost , benefits cut etc , higher prices ,

but we all know its the latter, it benefits the rich the most via shareholder value, and increased tax Burdon on the less than rich, companies are experiencing record profits while the average person is not much better of than 12 yrs ago.

That's why I mentioned its the little guys who pay for the record profits at TELUS and others, you and me are paying more because they are not paying anymore, do you think the media is a watch dog, they are also beneficiaries of this corp. tax policy . The message is not getting out, small to mid size companies are the public at large are pumping money into corp welfare more than ever before , CKNW and the media are not looking after your best interest. We should pay less and them more, they can afford it while we cannot,

Your statements would be more credible if you included your oirignal quote that I respdonded to by calling it idealgocial crap. I'm happy to have a discussion with but why is it that only the support material that you claim is relevant? I have enough understanding of each of the issues that you point out to carry my side of the conversation.

Your prespective is not about rationally discussing alternatives to improve our Health Care, it's about spouting the idealogically driven point of view, largely supported by the special interest groups that have too much at stake to go down without a fight.

Fair enough, if yo're not up to the task enjoy walking the dog.....

Thanks, Stuart your quote makes my point. It's folly to say that only rich Americans beneift from increases in share values. Checked your union pension funds lately?

Companies may be experinecing record profits but a recent TD analysis (you'll disgard it of course because the TD is an evil corporate empire)shows that Canada's GDP has risen 25% over the past 15 years, while governement spending has doubled and the quality of life of the average Canadian is stagnant. See any connection there?

NoLeftNutter
Here's the quote:

That's what 2 tier health care is all about, in my opinion. Not once did you deal with anything except my remarks about the guys who want to bring it to Canada. You may think it'll fatten your wallet - I personlly doubt it and, when I need a needle or a catheter I'd prefer to have some dedicated professionals make sure I get one and not be victimized by some crook with an MBA trying to increase shareholder value.

As for debate, any time. You go off and read the Romano report and the check out the other stuff I mentioned - including the Benson report on taxation - come back in a month's time and we'll talk.
Cheers.

Sorry about the spelling - Romanow - it should have been.
Here's a bit more reading:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1141904468636&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

G West - well, two-tier Health are already exisits in Canada and it's unlikely that the path to the solution is what most people would see as a step backwards, to the process prior to two-tier Healtch Care's existence.

To suggest that any changes in our Health Care system automatically results in the conditions you quote is folly. We trust our goevernments, whichever one is in power, to regualte and oversee the delivery of Health Care.

This off the rails scare mongering doesn't qualify or even address the changes that Klein, Campbell, Harper et all might be discussing. Our energy is better spent discussing the possible main stream effects rather than fringe horror stories.

Disagree, sorry, but keep reading!

Fair 'nuff.

I find it totally strange that with all the technology we have today. With all the new ways of teaching and healthier ways of eating we still can't come up with with a political leader who was a smart and as caring as Tommy Douglas himself. He had less than the polititians of the day and did more. The one and only reason Canada Health Care does not seem to Work anymore is the same reason the Doctors and Politicians didn't want it in the first place. "GREED"

They want out of Public Health Care before the baby boomers all get to the age of seniors when health will be huge money and that is what it is all about. It is staring now and Gordon Campbell, Ralph Klein, and Cherest do not want to miss out on a dime.

This idea that our health care doesn't work is a myth created by the boys and backed by Harper and the Right Wing. Most Provinces could not show where exactly all there health care money went when they were challenged as they did not keep proper records of it. This is specially true in BC.

We cannot go backwards to people dying in this country because they can't afford a doctor or medicare. This is Canada...

Amen, brother!