Give your head a shake sdgreen. I'm a government employee (an IT professional for a Health Authority) and a union member - and damn proud of it! Just remember - if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. How is a wage increase that keeps pace with inflation greedy in any way shape or form? In fact my wage is now behind the private sector thanks to a 15% wage rollback because I was "overpaid" - and guess what - now we can't recruit the skilled IT employees we need to implement the very improvements to healthcare systems that the government wants. That's brains for you on the part of the free market yahoos!

So much for the law of supply and demand, when there is demand and no spply wages rise, but the neo cons etc. want to bring in slave lbour to build their monuments.

One law for the rich and one law for the poor, a hell of a way to run a country.

To claim that labour costs will be rising by 50% is utterly ridiculous. Is the average construction guy going to get a 50% raise?? I don't think so. Ask any now if they are making more than even 5 years ago and the answer would be a small nominal amount. Maybe .50cents or a buck an hour. Management is probabley lining their pockets and blaming the bottom.

This is simply a fabrication so they can bring in lower paid workers from Mexico and try and save their skin.

The whole thing is a political/ideological spiel and preparation for the GATS, which will permit the unlimited importation of foreign slave labour into any industry and the sellout of the country to multinationals.

Hochstein is a PR hack for ideology and not for reality, as his frequent TV appearances show, foaming at the mouth against the '90s.

The brutal fact is that Canada and BC have always been lagging behind the training of skilled workers. This has improved somewhat in the '60s to '90s, but then fell back again, especially, since this screwball BCLib gang destroyed the apprenticeship training system to please their corporate owners.

As a foreign born, but BC trained tradesman, I have worked on jobs where the concrete guys were Italians, the carpenters Norwegians, the cabinetmakers/finishers Hungarians, the painters Germans and Austrians, the electricians British, the landscapers Japanese. I could still show houses in the British Properties, where not a single Canadian born worker was employed, because there weren't any.

I trained a number of apprentices, all Canadian born, and they became fine tradesmen, but were destroyed by the market system, especially of this crime wave of "free trade", where people are nothing but dirt. You can not expect people to spend years in training, when the political system can not guarantee their employment.

Yes, what we need is "protectionism" and the more the better it is, and the more I like it.
And to hell with the free traders.

Note to the ideological nutcase above: How is it that you people are contantly screaming all this propaganda against unions, on how they destroy the economy with their insatiable demands, but never a word on how the insatiable demands for profits by the stockmarkets destroy
not only the economy, but endanger the ecology and the human race ?

Why aren't there complaints against insatiable jerks like Pattison, always on the go to screw his employees and the public, or any other of his ilk, blackmailing and bilking the economy for billions, while children starve? Why are the prices in the supermarkets rising constantly, while the net incomes of the producers and store clerks are sinking?

Why is CN Rail having constant accidents, where there weren't any before, and why they do now demand $500. a year from home owners for crossing BC public owned tracks, while firing maintenace workers and chalking up record profits?

Do you ever ask these questions in your hysterical outbursts against one sector, while glorifying the worst criminals?

By the way, I've never been a member of any union and never owned a union shop.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I think Ed D. said it all. I remeber while living in the Nederlands, in 1980, having Dutch friends show me ads and posters about the dire need for tradespersons in Canada, yet flabbergasted that there were hardly any schools to train them.

In Europe, at one time, most people leaving school had a trade or went to university. In Canada, for many the end of grade 12 is the start of a downhill slide to drugs and depravation and alike because the government refuses to pay for proper education and training and rely, instead, on cheap foreign trained labour.

In the past there was plenty of jobs for unskilled and untrained people, to day there is not.

A history proffessor once told me when about 33% of the population of a country becomes disinchanted with the administration, historically a revolution happens.

I think we are becoming ever closer to this number.

you don't know how to grow food...you buy from others or watch them eat...

don't train workers in the skills needed to build your country...you bear the blame if you control the economy...

can't see past your nose cause your to busy counting money...take a break and look around

there are enough workers here...

THAT PRICES ARE GOING UP FOR CONCRETE AND STEEL MEAN THAT YOUR PROFITS ARE DIMINISHING !!!

SO YOU MAKE THE EXCUSE FOR CHEAP/SLAVE LABOUR

YOU SHOULD BE WONDERING WHAT MAKES CONCRETE AND STEEL SO MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE ??? AND MAYBE WHEN YOU FIND OUT IT'S YOUR FELLOW GREEDMONGERS INFLATING PRICES FOR NATURAL RESOURCES WE OWN !

WELL THEN CYNICS LIKE ME CAN REST EASY AND KNOW WITH CONFIDENCE...IT'S ONLY THE FREE MARKET ECONOMY AT WORK SCREWING THE MANY...SO A FEW CAN PROFIT...

Labour shortage is it?
Or is it one more ploy to get cheap help?

The captains of industry and their ilk, have shown us that they prefer to hire Nannies from the Philipines, instead of Nannies from England. They bemoan that the english Nannies are so expensive, but agree that it would be preferable to get one who has been trained properly.
Do you see the similarity?

It is not cost-effective to have an apprentice, and heavens forbid he might quit when he gets his diploma!

So it is the almigthy buck syndrome at play here!
Of course they blame the unions the socialists and anyone else for their own shortsight.

As an aside, this increased cost happens because of the Olympics! your next house will cost you more, and that is an indirect cost of that ambition to get tourist here to fill our streets and block our highways.

And there is sdgreen carrying the Neocon corporatist line again above. No surprise here.

But here it is again and obvious to every person dependant on their own labour for a living. They are out to undermine worker wages and conditions with cheap, minimum wage and no rights offshore labour again, only now brought directly into the country, to further intimidate our own workers organized into unions and put them on the defensive. It's the same old, same old race to the bottom we have been living with, undermining wages, working conditions and worker-consumer purchasing power, throughout the Neocon period since the early 1980s.

These Neocon fuchs doing this to us, our society, and to these poor and desparate folks they are now going to play off against us, all in the name of some fanciful GATT style corporate "globalization" and continental "harmonization", need to be put down-, and folks need to begin to organize for this next phase of the class war now. But for that, we really need to see this move, like NAFTA and the other global corporate variant plans to entrench themselves and their power, for what it really is: An attack by ruling class privilege on working class folks, their right to organize ( no less as effectively as the ruling class and their business organizations organize themselves against us) and bargain collectively for wages, working conditions, and social, political and economic policy democracy.

And there at the end, in the preceding paragraph, is the real indicator of what needs to occur here as this struggle evolves, I think. Democracy itself, where and how it too needs to evolve and be applied, likewise needs to change. We need to come to see that simple and severly limited capitalist political democracy, as an X on a ballot every four or five years, for a tweedle-dee and tweedledum ruling class party system, is not good enough anymore. Hasn't been for awhile.

A fight for a new model of democracy needs to be developed and engaged, that makes makes "democracy" a part of our everyday working lives, and gives us control over the great institutions of the economy and so-called wealth and power creation. This current formal but shallow version of democracy controlled by the ruling class wealth and influence systems is no longer good enough to secure and ensure the quality of our lives. It needs to be challenged and their control over the management, direction and receipt of majority "ownership benefit" share circumscribed and brought under democratic worker and broader community control. Otherwise, this continues and gets only worse from here. This is not just suddenly going to up and go away. They are no less determined than we need to be.

The current capitalist dominant arrangement of the economy and politics has come to the end of its social usefulness, like our relationship with the US Empire, and needs to finally be put down and further evolved in a new direction. And it is such is this article deals with that points to this overwhelming need-, for new thinking, new approaches, and new boldness on our parts, we the working class and other progressive citizenry of this country.

Always good to read you, Fait Lux. Spot on.

The brains behind the Olympic budgeting sort of reminds me of Expo 86. ( Give us a blank cheque and watch things happen)They were about to make a holy mess of the thing as friends of friends were on boards, or clamouring to get o0n baord, and property connected to make mega bucks.

The premier of the day called in a guy noted for making things work or else.

His name was Jimmy Patterson.He worked for free, and the first thing he did was remove the teams of experts and hangers on.
I guess he didn't like the looks of the bottom line looming down the road aways.
Patterson isn't in the same politcal world I live in but by gosh the guy saved BC's bacon. Wonder if Jimmy has the time to sort out this boondoggle. I do notice his stores Save on Foods is unionized , and one of his senior guys is ex premier, NDP Glen Clark, exUnion organizer for steel workers.

So maybe Jimmy P. knows something about good hard working labour folks. Certainly more than sdgreen or for that matter the guy who shills for the Independent Contractors and Businesses Association's Philip Hochstein.

I worked in the Forest Industry from early 60`s to 2005...the tradesmen were European..the labourers
were Canadian. The job that could compare wage wise with the tradesmen was as faller. I remember a friend showing me his faller dads highschool graduation picture..a large number of the young guys went on to falling...and the large number who were now dead..(his dad was eventually killed)..it might as well have been a picture of kids before heading off to the trenches. The post War Economy in Europe and the standard of living improved to where the colonies no longer had the same attraction to European tradespeople. My Dutch Father-in-law was trained as an Auto Mechanic, a machinist and Welder. There were FOUR large quality Trade Schools in Rotterdam alone. BCIT started up on a fairly small level when..was it early 60`s?
They kept the Canadian Working Class kids as workers for the woods and mines and fisheries and imported skilled trades (preferably white) as they needed them. We have not come very far from this Colonial thinking. Hochstein..you come see me..I`d like to set you straight.
Eric Pawlett
Squamish

bob the cat:
To take things further, to become a mechanical engineer in Europe, you first had to have a complete apprenticeship in the appropriate trade, and only then were you allowed to study for your engineers degree!
"Our" engineers have hardly ever set foot inside a workplace, they have little idea of how things are done in actual situations!
I have worked with Architects, who think their job is done once the blueprints come out of the machine; they do not make inspections to see if the work is done correctly, and they resent being called on to explain their gaffes.
What is happening is that on every level industry tries to shortcut on education.
It all happened because in "the good ole days" anyone with a saw could bs his way into being a carpenter!
Many independent contractors do not have a trades certificate themselves!
If you can't get a job in construction,hey just start a construction company!
Brave new world indeed

And that's the world I recall, for damned sure. Interesting piece, Eric Pawlett.

Too much "Colonial thinking" going on in this country yet, and not just amongst the Neocons either-, though them especially. We need to give our collective heads a shake, and get rid of these cobwebs in the attic.

I am a member in a construction union and for some stupid reason in this time of unprededented demand our union negotiated away our long standing provision of double time for overtime work and replaced it with time and a half. So rather than seeing the unions as being greedy and forcing up construction costs I see them as tools of the bosses.

The reason that there is a shortage of skilled workers is that young people and their parents don't want to do the dirty, dangerous work involved in construction. This problem was recognized by the NDP government in the '90s and they brought out John Walsh, a professor from the University of Guelph to educate guidance consellors and others about stressing the importance and atttraction of a career in the trades.

The trouble today is that the images that kids grow up with are of business people making the big bucks and living a glamorous life. What positive images of construction workers are shown in the mass media.

Bringing in foreign workers is a stupid idea. We have to start relying on our own resources and building our own communities.

I'm with Fiat Lux on this one as well. Importing labour is not the answer. Robbing our Canadians of valuable construction experience and revenue, regardless of their backgrounds are not the answer. Righties cry a river when Canadians end up on "the dole", yet support this crap?

And the apprenticeship programs cut by this provinces Libs were somewhat insane.

This whole story, the whole issue is a PR game. "Our cost overruns are caused by unions. We need affordable labour to meet our estimates." What they really mean to say is "Our cost overruns are caused by contractor greed and rising commodities. We were always union busters anyways and never liked them, because we don't like to be told what to do or how to do it. We reserve the right to build mega projects cheap and watch them fall apart 30 years from now with the use of inept labour, which we won't have to be accountable for when we've heart diseased ourselves into an early grave."

I'm a protectionist as well. Fug Free trade and its traitor ideological idiots. When will we ever get it? "Free Trade should not be confused with Fair trade." Its not Canada that isn't following the rules. And regardless, these rules were never good for Canada. "Keep the goods flowing south... or else" happens to be in the fine print.

We can mention Mulroney's destruction of FIRA and sellout of Canadian resources with Free Trade and it just goes over peoples heads.
Duh, what's FIRA? And duh, anything with Free in front of it, must be good right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Investment_Review_Agency

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/mergers/

Anyone who wade's through this last site should be reminded that programs like FIRA and large in Canada mergers cannot exist for Con governments to sell us out to the States. Thats what's happening. U.S. takeovers of Canadian comanies, at a rapid rate. Currently, the U.S. is buying us out 2 to our 1 in comparision to our own international activities, and its accelerating.

You know, Free trade and Free dumb. Its a brainwash for anyone who is remotely interested in taking a look. Just another U.S. sellout. "Freedom fighters and America First." I've seen enough Freedom sold in the disguise of slavery to last me 10 lifetimes. Check out Harpers NCC presidential PR. The website name should suggest something all on its own.

morefreedom.org

Who benefits from wild suggestions that we don't have enough Canadians to pull of the labour requirements to fill the pockets of these projects to begin with? Or Capitol? Just ask the question, "who benefits?" and it should become crystal clear to anyone who has an ounce of common sense.

Love the Pumpkinhead moniker. 8-D

But there is is the sense of it and the conclusion we all finally need to reach-, and the essence of what the majority of us are saying here, from Fait through Brain and to myself and others.

Without that sense of it, we will forever be the pathetic "victim" watching our resources and the future of our families and communities being shipped south, into that great bottomless pit maw of The Empire.

We need to quickly learn what they have not, that in fact we need to match our population growth with the long term carrying capacity of our land base and its resources, "husbanding" them for the benefit of our own national development, and securing maximum benefit from them for ourselves and our future generations, and their needs. This endless GDP growth and "wealth creation", plug into the cheap labour Greed Machine of the Corporate "Free Trade" World scenario is the road to national, ecological and economic Armageddon.

Rather than this endless export dependant "colonial" model economy the Neocons would lock us into forever and a day, at the behest of their Empire Master's Voice, which has us locked into our own self-destructive "addiction" behaviours, we need to proceed in fact, in quite the opposite direction. That being husbanding our resources closely, rather than just selling them off in endless train lines bound for Amerika, Japan, and the industrial development of others. Instead, such as we actually need and can realistically sustain, to maintain "decent" lifestyles and services, developing, processing and feeding these raw resources into our own value-added manufacturing/industrial development that firstly meets our own needs, and encourages and develops the labour skills of our own peoples.

Self sufficiency over this state of induced "export" and off-shore dependancy is in fact the route we need to proceed down, and likely all peoples of other nations likewise, assuming responsibility for themselves and their own land and resources similarly. The Neocon, Friedman School of Economics doesn't just get it wrong a little bit, but completely and dangerously so-, save for the ruling class alone, if that's the assumed object of national and international economies and all politics.

We have a long history of importing cheap labour to Canada, and a long history of importing surplus people from other provinces over to this side of the Rockies. Half of our teachers are from BC, while the other half were educated elsewhere in Canada, and a few are from other countries.

In BC, we have never had to educate our own people, because immigration - inter-provincial or otherwise - would inevitably solve the problem. I suspect that we are witnessing a significant shift in this area, and that we will have difficulty in the next few decades if we believe that this approach will continue to work.

There is a side to this issue that no one has mentioned:

Is it morally acceptable for a first world country to poach the talented and trained folks from a third world country? Think about it. Mexican or Pakistani taxpayers subsidise some guy's trades education, and then watch him board a ship or plane for some first world country that is too damn cheap to train their own people.

We've all heard the clamour when some BC educated physician heads south five minutes after graduation. And that's migration from one first world place to another. The theft of human resources from a struggling third world country has an undeniably more pungent aroma.

Note to gloomy.

If you ever worked in the construction industry, you know that Canadian trained architects are the biggest jokes on a site. "What the hell does that ass... want now ? .....yes sir, right away sir.... just get the hell out of here" I had long arguments with architects, when I knew that their demands were stupid, but lost in each case, until the things fell apart and then I had to rebuild them properly. They could never understand, among other things that long mitre joints in wood will dry out and open up. Especially in Vancouver.

Back in '88 I was called to a restaurant construction to build some showcases etc. The architect was German trained. It was a cost plus job on account of the timing. He gave me the drawings and when I brought them home I saw a number of technical features that would have inflated the labour and material costs. So I called him up and expected an order to follow his drawings , or else. Instead, he asked "What's your recommendation, Ed ?" I just about fainted over such heresy coming from an architect.

From there on, he gave me the outside views he wanted to achieve and left the rest to me. Even so that it was cost plus, I saved the owners a bundle and it was one of the happiest experiences of my professional career.

If any of you ever comes to Williams Lake, look into the Laughing Loon Pub and at my work, now claimed by the new owners as having been imported from England, or Vancouver. Depending on the direction of the wind on the day.

My son apprenticed with me and got his papers as a journeyman cabinetmaker in '86. Having seen the struggles we went through to survive, he managed to get a mill job, pushing a broom for twice what he could get as a trade and craftsman and never looked back, while we destroyed the furniture industry, import woodwork and furniture because it is "cheaper".

Of the apprentices I trained I know of only one who's still in the trade.

In any case, the present construction boom has nothing to do with the Campbell govt. It is the result of the Olympic madness that will backfire in a big way and the artificial money creation powers of the banks that could dry up with the collapse of the US economy, which could happen next week, or 5 years from now.

It will happen allright, but nobody can predict when. So, what will happen to our glorious market economy and imported labour then ?

Ed Deak. Big Lake.

For my comments on unions see
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2006/02/21/GenderFair/

Except for cases of life endangerment, how about halting immigration, until everyone who is currently a BC resident has a job or is cared for in a stable environment. For saying this I will probably be called a racist.

I look at the conditions in this province, places where government funding should rightly be going and it isn't because the priorities are to bring in more people to join this mass of underpaid, underfed people. Some will succeed, many won't and will live on the poverty line, women deserted by their husbands left to social services.

Then there is the drug trade which everyone ignores, which completely skews any discussion we could have here on the economy. Until drugs are legalized and taxed we will have no control over the billions of dollars run through our economy by multinational cartels. Some of these local organizations are so big they make Jimmy look like a stock boy. Thats right, our poster boy.

If this truly is an "NDP think tank" then what are we thinking? As Ed so aptly pointed out, their is no room left for pride in our work as a craft, it's all about mass production. It's been replaced with a desire for higher pay, just to survive in a world consumed by consumerism. I remember when the NDP was a family party, fundraisers would consist of dances where the whole family would go. That is long gone now.

There has to be a substantial change in the way that unions and the NDP do things. You want the support of the people? Well get out there on the sidewalk between the elections. Get rid of your car and your new truck and take the bus. You will find out what a piss poor transit system we have and find out what it is like to be poor. You will see the misery on the street. I so tired of all your theory.

I know this is hard for you to comprehend but you have to stop saying things like "ideological nut case" or "hysterical outbursts" that is the language of the right. If they truly are a nut case or hysterical then treat them civilly as you would a sick person. Invite their comments, they seem to generate more discussion such as Ed' s response.

We have more than enough people in BC to bring this 2010 thingy about, bring the apprenticeship schools back to where they were before gordo, & just get the pigs away from the trough. oink, oink
OH CANADA WE STAND ON GUARD FOR THEE!
MARCH will be a very rude awakening for the gordo clan & his yes men?
I believe that we have been pushed into a corner and it's time to bring back true Democracy.
The only reason the unemployed is down is 80% are in service sector jobs (minimum wage 6-8 bucks an hour part time casual in other words no benefits) serving the self serving well off

Janet 666,

I don't know, but I certainly don't read anything that sounds "racist" in your comments above. Mostly just sound "common sense", I'd say.

"Is it morally acceptable for a first world country to poach the talented and trained folks from a third world country?"- asks Davey boy...
Not to mention, is it morally acceptable for a first world country to poach its own talented and trained folks, as well?? The Straight has a good feature this week about minimum wage jobs, and it doesn't even touch on the amount of Canadian-born students working $8/hr jobs while sinking under $25,000 student loan debt, Canadian-born, educated, skilled people working at video stores, in cafes, and big box companies for that little bit of extra cash to stay afloat. People in their 30s and 40s, with families to support!
Our society is a massive joke; if everyone's LOC was cut off tomorrow, 3/4 of the country would wake up to the shocking realization that we actually have NO money and that sustaining our current lifestyle is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!
My first job (in 1987, in Ontario) paid me $5.75/hr- minimum wage. That was nearly 20 yrs ago, and minimum wage is what, now????
HOW DOES THAT WORK????!!!!!

I've thought about your question, Ed. The only answer I can come up with will be protectionism. And some neo-con dummie will go on about how protectionism is the cause to crumbling empires instead of acknowledging that it is the counter or the effect needed to survive greed, stupidity, exploitation and waste. Us Canadians are a little to slow to grasp the concept of protectionism just yet...

But when U.S. currency collapes and they have lost their ability to fund wars and buy other nations businesses and resources, and foreign ownership of the U.S. dollar exceeds 50% - 60% (its 49% right now), the only choice that will be logical for them at that point will be to become more protectionist themselves. Heck, with oil being traded in U.S. dollars for example, they always were. When trade actually does become free...

After a crumbled nations finances... if they are ever to hope to rise again... A bottoms up revolt from voters to congress to senators, beginning wars with the very corporations that sewered them through legislation, rebuilding their entire manufacturing base, going to war with the religious cults in their country along with the same ideological drivers that cultish corporations, cult unions (there are some) cult organizations (some), and cult minded political parties, if they are ever to hope to become an almost entirely self sufficient economy again when their money becomes worthless. You know, everything we should be doing now, here at home. Prepare for self sufficiency.

The U.S. is very very dependent now, despite their rhetoric. And because they are still the worlds largest customer, their economic collapse will spell a global recession and the only thing that will spin us out of it is the horniness of humanity. Greater populations. Greater consumption. Until we reach a Rapa Nui (probably mis-spelled) scenerio where there are too many of us and not enough resources to sustain it.

Enter Darwins theories on population controls. And if that doesn't happen soon enough, global warming and all of its nasties from everything to our Artic caps being gone within 20 years and accelerated Greenland melts flooding the coasts within 50, to earthquakes in diver places arising from the shifts in weight displacements, to the pestilence and diseases spawned by heated up nano life and so on...

Regardless of anyones belief's, Revelations is worth a second look. Son of Perdition = corporations, the name or identity without a soul that's destroying this planet... barter and trade... the fates of Christianities churches and the big religions... Environmental changes... there was the odd one who wrote in languages that couldn't be understood with writings signifigantly changed from its origins to suit an empires needs, that an eagle from the East in flight can interpret.

And while I'm completely off topic, Ed, Coyote, you both along with a few others, have articulated views on this site that I would like to borrow in a fight against this mindless machine south of us with some of their puppet plants pretending to represent our interests in Ottawa. Mind if I borrow a few rants?
BC Dude: So true.
Coyote and Ed, right as usual.
Davey-Boy: Good points.
Gloomy: Likewise, good points.
Grumpy, crh, pumpkinhead, pretty much everyone except for the wingding up top, good posts.

Supply and demand will always create problems like this. The fact is that BC doesn't have enough skilled workers to take care of our demand -- so they have to come from *some* where.

The real question is, are workers sourced to do the job brought from elsewhere treated equally and fairly with those "already here". There will always be a difference of opinion around whether that bar has been met.

Also, it's a balancing act between letting costs skyrocket (because costs always go up when there's high demand), and bringing in more supply (and angering those who would benefit from a lower supply.

Oh, how I WANT to believe this, but god bless the people of BC's short memory. Helloooo, remember who destroyed the integrity of the NDP in this province? Glen boy, that's right, business as usual making union deals with the corporation behind the people's back.

You know why these guys are in bed together, because Jimmy Pattison (no dummy in spite of his freckles) knows how big those big boys are and he is keeping the unions close to his chest. He knows the power of shut down. They both know it.

But we do have enough unemployed to fill any labour demands for the forseeable future.

Why not train the unemployed and the under-employed and the semi-employed already here to be "skilled"?

The article points out that this isn't some problem that fell from the sky. Everyone saw it coming from its right-wing ideology origins.

And janet666, stopping immigration until our own people have decent jobs is just waaay too scary a philosophy for the sdgreens and Phil Hochsteins of the world. Next thing you know people will be calling for the putting of Canada and Canadians first. Can't have that.

"Except for cases of life endangerment, how about halting immigration, until everyone who is currently a BC resident has a job or is cared for in a stable environment. For saying this I will probably be called a racist."

If the freedom to move where one pleases isn't the most basic of human rights then we're screwed. Howzabout we let people live where they want to live? I really get ticked when people think borders are a solution to our problems.

There is no freedom to move where one pleases. Never has been.

If the Olympics can't be held without bringing stealing tens of thousands of workers from other parts of the world then maybe the Olympics should be held in those other parts of the world.

Non union construction wages are crap. Union construction wages are decent. I have seen it first hand as an apprentice electrician here in Vancouver.

Labour costs in most sectors, including construction, have not kept pace with inflation. That is why the gap between the rich and poor in Canada continues to grow and why the middle class is shrinking.

How could imported workers mentor younger apprentices if they have no experience installing and building under the Canadian Building Code? What if they don't speak English? In Europe, they operate on 240V systems, not 120V. There are many descpancies between how we build things in Canada and how others build things.

Imported labour is a smoke screen for reducing Canadian labour standards.

I agree with you stump, we should have the freedom to move, but we are no longer nomadic tribal people living in harmony with our environment. We live in an unforgiving structure that runs on a capitalist economy. Until we have the strength and means to support the flood of people who would choose to live in Canada, BC especially, we have to look after the people who are already here.

We have no solution to our problems. Anywhere, not even here in these discussions.

The planet will hit 6.5 billion this Saturday according to Yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060224/sc_space/planetspopulationtohit65billionsaturday

As the story points out populations are growing fastest where it can be afforded the least.

If Canada opened its borders completely there would be about a billion people here by next Friday.

The best thing Canada and other western countries can do to support the people in poor countries is to quit robbing them of their skilled workers, quit taking their resources, help build and staff educational structures and actually encourage real democracy instead of propping up people that we can bend to do our bidding for a few bucks in a Swiss bank account.

I happen to know of a physician - graduated from UBC in 2001, who is just about to finish a 5 year specialization in radiology - both Canada and US board certified. This person has been offered positions in Alberta where compensation after year 1 will approach $250k per annum with guaranteed 22 weeks annual leave. You think union trades are overpaid? I don't think so.

Good piece, Brain.

Once we've finally broken "free" of this Neocon restricted world of "socialism for the great corporations and ruling class" and "laissez faire capitalism for everyone else", all countries are going to have to revisit the earlier virtues of "self-sufficiency' and "protection" of one's own national economic house, in my view. It is only in such a way each of us, in fact, will be able to sort out those economic and trade arrangements which actually serve our own "national" collective interests, over merely those which serve the great global corps. Whose latter real objective of it all is to simply be able to play one part of the world and set of workers off against another-, in their self-serving, bottomline version of "free trade".

In the real world we all live in, each of us has to protect ourselves, and we all know it instinctively. So too in larger national and even regional units, it is necessary to protect ourselves from potentially harmful trading and other economic arrangements. That's a simple fact of life the great corporations would have us forget, with their global ability to be here and there around the world at the stroke of a computer key, in order to enhance your/our national vulnerabilities to their manipulations of both the national and global markets and other geo-economic arrangerments within and between peoples.

So I think you should feel quite bold even in advancing this "protectionist" position of yours, entirely unapologetically.

Certainly The Empire would not and does not when and where they decide it serves their "national interest". Check out how it is playing out even in this business of the Arab owned corporation, from the UAE I believe it is, which has just bought the British company that runs a major US port managementy authority. They are near beside themselves in their determination to prevent this, which has opened up deep divisions even amongst the ruling Neocon Repugnants, no less than they have stolen billions from this country around their concerns re soft wood lumber etc,, despite frequent global trade body and NAFTA rulings against them. They simply thumb their nose at whatever "free trade" agreements and arrangements which do not serve their national interest.

And by the by. I steal ideas from other people all the time, such that I can no longer be sure what is original to me, and what I have simply just taken as my own. Feel free. (I have even stolen a few from persons here, quite possibly even yourself, and simply not acknowledged it.)

As yet, there are no intellectual property patent rights than can be claimed on the free exchange of ideas-, at least that I know of. :-(

"There is no freedom to move where one pleases. Never has been."

the time has come.

More excellent points, Janet666:
But solutions have been given at least, in terms of what to address with this article. Find Canadians from other provinces and unions. Restore apprentice programs that the Libs destroyed when they assumed power. Restore funding in trades education (there have been major cutbacks there as well). Restore the truth telling within failing biased media again. Shift ideologically failing economical paradigms.

And Yah! I definitely like the last post on your provided web link. It is the put up or shut up answer to unions and their integrity, as well as the NDP's for that matter. You put the focus on where it needs to be and I can certainly say that there are enough people in this province and country that are well aware of the NDP/union marrage perception. They don't have to keep bribing each other into power and if I'm wrong in this in opinion or principle, it certainly isn't wrong in the way its publicly percieved.

The NDP and unions both, to restore their integrity, can shift their efforts back to the people where it all began. Back to communities. Back to social causes that are slipping through the cracks of existing governments with efforts that go beyond the media political spotlight and back into peoples lives where it makes the difference beyond the rhetoric and hype, the lives of people who are truly dependent on our help.

I might have come up with this NDP/union solution on my own in time and then again, I might not have. Either way, Janet is far ahead of us with this. Unions are "profitable" with their take on dues but spend it internally, spending some excess as well, contributing major sums to the NDP. What ever happened to directly funding local charitable causes, and to target money to non profit organizations facing local social challenges, that would go far in restoring their own sagging perception? Doesn't the NDP and unions also know full well what the rewards of this shift in thinking will give birth to? And for those who think this is not so, and can give "proof" to counter this perception other than rhetoric or insults, by all means, do so. Provide some links! Don't be shy.

Janet's ideology is brilliant, as well as her assessment on the identification of ill logic and ill mental health connections in terms of how commentators on this site treat each other with vicious put downs and insulting anyone else with ideologies that aren't precisely like their own. I cannot help but be impressed by her free thinking.

G West: I know welders who make the same.
And they didn't go to school for 8 years to do it. :-). I'm not saying union workers are overpaid, myself. I'm saying they are too rigid under certain economical conditions, and too unprincipled in donating to political parties to achieve their own self interests. If unions cleaned up their act in terms of how to pursue success, I probably wouldn't have anything bad to say about them at all, other than to complain about the odd union member or rep who has a cult mentality mantra that proclaims "our way is the only way, or our way is better than all the rest." Show me ideology that works and is indefinitely sustainable to current and future conditions. Some union ideology works and some does not.

The world of limitless space and endless resources is gone, in my view of it. And every nation, especially in the future, is going to have the right, even as they do now, to decide who they want and do not want, who and how many they can care and provide for, and those numbers and persons they cannot.

I think that we really do need to get over this silly notion that we can just up and impose ourselves in other peoples space without right of restriction, no less than in our own homes. And that does not mean that we should not resist attempts to do that needlessly, or for mere reasons of race, creed and colour.

But short of that, again in my view, I get to decide who comes into my home, and no less do we so into our national home space. There is no special "outsider" right to assume or intrude.

The most basic right...? I don't think so. Save within one's home national turf. It doesn't exist currently globally, though folks do try, and I understand that, and is at least as unlikely in the future. My view. You're screwed. :-) There always have been, are and will be limits to all real and meaningful freedoms, especially in collective social realities where space and resources are limited-, save only in our fantasies. :-)

Even today at best, it is only the extremely wealthy who are "nearly" free to be wherever they want. But then they are above the limitations of mere mortals such as we. 8-D

Who was it said, the only absolute is that there are no absolutes?

Maybe one day on a higher plane of reality, but not this one I think.

Coyote:
Quite right yourself. The neo-cons will spin protectionism as the downfall to their own polluted thinking, of course, never taking credit for the fact that protectionism is the only alternative to their own failures. This stinking thinking has gone on far enough. Quite right. I should be far bolder (just don't want to be labelled as a pure extremist by those sore losers when the time comes. They'll be looking for someone to hang, don't yah know). ;-)

You know how it is. An idiot never admits it when they are wrong, when a true thinker not only admits it when they are wrong, or at least proven to be wrong, but doesn't often take credit for it when they are right. But then... what is simplistic and obvious to some are entirely oblivious to others. Thus, blind deaf and dumb fit the descriptions of the dunce to a tee! 8-D

I'm gonna have to be careful here. I keep raising the stakes to my own dialogue... And your own! :-)

The perception is not the reality. If you listen to the MSM you'd believe that unions support 90% of the NDP's spending and that corporations only cover maybe 10% of the Libs and Cons. The opposite is true.

Unions do support other causes, which isn't their job. Their job is to support their own members. Yet they do seem to see the bigger picture and put money into websaites like this as well as social causes.

But they do not have the funds nor the responsibility to catch the baby the Liberals let fall. When Libs and Cons make messes they should not demand unions bail them out.

Quite right again, Coyote. Freedom has its limits. And its price. Good analysis.

While you are absolutely right about reality not being properly percieved, Frank, due to our corrupt media, it is still the public perception nevertheless, and I was going with 11% numbers on the last campaign myself, which I thought was enough.

Such as? If you know some things I don't, then by all means, bring it to light. I'm willing to have my mind changed with facts. Thing is, no one has bothered to show me those facts. Awareness is the key to enlightenment, Frank!
And, I'll also note that some corporations give to charities and its not their job either. But it's nice to see, and perception truly is everything in politics. Your post did well to establish that.

What exactly do you thing that Glenn Clark was doing?
His idea was that the ill-fated ferries was a good way to train skilled shipbuilders!
He got bad advice on the concept of those boats but that is another story.
The inland-Island highway also got some workers a break and still it came in on budget.
There have been initiatives, but not from the private sector!
Hate the NDP all you , but they have shown foresight!
Dave Barrets agricultural land idea has kept farmland from being paved over!

I just came back from WELFARE/SOCIAL SERVICES because they wanted my nephew who was DISABLED while on the job(CONSTRUCTION) and injured(...non union...WCB sez he was not covered cause it was his first day...we gotta sue the driver that hit him(drunk driver) ...ICBC sez WCB...WCB sez ICBC... )to prove he was DISABLED...TYPICAL CIVIL SERVANTS...KID IS TOTALY DISABLED...NEEDS OTHERS TO CARE FOR HIM...YET THEY WANT THINGS HE CANNOT PROVIDE...AND WHEN I ASKED FOR THE CORRESPONDENCE BACK THEY WOULD NOT GIVE IT TO ME...SAID IT WAS PRIVATE...YET...I AM HIS LEGAL GUARDIAN...

so those that think this is OFF TOPIC !!!

tell me what you would do if a foreign worker

was injured ??? and have you seen what we do to our own ???

LIKE EVERY THIRD WORLD COUNTRY....FORGET ABOUT THEM...YOU DO IT ALREADY ...WITH YOUR OWN !

FU$$ING SCUM !

Hey Gloomy, I voted for Clark and I certainly don't hate the NDP. I supported and still support the fast ferries and the island highway.

brain,

As I said, this website for one was started with the help of some union bucks was it not? I realize its not a union organ or anything like that but it is alternative media and the BC Fed thought that would be a good thing to contribute towards.

I'm not in a union so don't have at my fingertips a newsletter to refer to but don't unions also contribute to scholarships, eastside groups, women's groups etc? Not a lot, a few bucks here and there where they think it can do some good?

Additionally, the Tides Canada Foundation is the major contributer to this site. I'm not aware of any union contributions coming here, but if you know of sites like this this one that aren't union run and at the same time union supported, by all means, feel free to list them and I'll be glad to take a peek.

In other words, my mind is open. I've just yet to have anyone post facts on union contributions to causes that don't support their own self interests. And, since a connection was made to supporting their workers, some workers have the same social conditions and interests as the rest of us.

If anyone can list union budgets that are publicly available along with their lists in terms who they contribute to, and their amounts, by all means! Do so! It would go a long way in changing the general publics perception, right?

I can see the leap for say financing a political party that strongly supports social causes, but not contributing to a party that will form a government, only to negotiate favorable wage settlements with the same entity. To me, its a conflict of interest.

I'm just not one to buy my employer a box of scotch to get that promotion. I'd rather earn it with merit. And this separation of principle in terms of how other political parties do it, like the Cons taking U.S. corporate money and church cheques to promote their contributers agenda's, along with Liberal contributions that are more Can corp orientated, albeit a 2:1 underdog ratio with the Cons, cannot be overlooked either! To me, I don't see sacrificed principles all way round as a good and fair arrangement. I see it as crooked all way round, lending way to the mistrusting public perception towards all political parties and governments as a whole. With good reason!

Now if the NDP went their own way with 1.75 a vote federally, as well as with contributions by individuals that didn't directly benefit from their programs and budgets, I would not only likely vote for them throughout my lifetime, I would likely contribute if I could and become a member! And, I'm quite certain that I would not be the only one feeling this way. But as long as we have otherwise, with an NDP leader that exaggerates claims and distorts truths of his own, I'm totally forced to look at every candidate from my riding regardless of the flag they fly in the hopes that their own individual integrity will be enough to represent my principled interests. Lets just say that leadership and party behaviors aren't enough for me on all sides. Yet. I'm hopeful... but.

Just to add, my principled self interests concerning how I vote are indefinitely sustainable to the whole, so I don't see a conflict of interest there. The public isn't going to scatch that X for me, after all.

And, Frank, I'll take a peak later to see what I can find on my own, but from what I know, Unions target their resources for their own self interests as any corporation does and I'm not saying most of their spending beyond what they contribute to the NDP is necessarily a bad thing, but I would like to see them contribute to the public sector in other ways, social ways, or at least make us more aware of it if it exists, so that my opinion of them as well as others doesn't worsen, especially with every dingbat commentator who religiously worships them as the best organization since time began without offering better wages, benefits and working conditions as the sole reason. You know... work and money. These are good reasons, of course, but even some for profit corporations out there recognize that there is more to life than this. I'm hoping a union member or rep will provide links and hard facts that will surprise and please me!

Gloomy: I don't hate the NDP either! Hate... such a strong word. For me, the NDP is NI on my report card. Needs impovement. And they can stand in line for that one. The rest of the parties need impoving moreso. Lets just say I've got good faith in the system. Just not the majority of its participants, lol.

brain, the Tyee is not union supported as far as I know. I was just saying that I believe there was a BC Fed donation to help set it up.

The major unions like CUPE, the CAW etc do have websites where they mention causes they support financially.

And there's lots of non-union leftists that feel the same way. I don't happen to see unions as a problem at all but I support the NDP doing what looks best politically.

I like Jack Layton but I was cheering for Bill Blaikie. Jack tries to be like Bill and Ed but he doesn't have the same presence. He'd be a good minister.

Well, here I go, putting my foot in my mouth again. Until recently, I did the treasurers job for a local Labour Council, so I know how unions at this level spend their money. My complaint was that I spent to much issuing cheques to Amnesty International, the Red Cross, Aids, Breast Cancer charity, Latin American workers justice campaigns, a donation to this or that small "progressive" magazine, yes NDP electoral campaigns (in surprisingly small sums), which I personally didn't agree with but..., and the list is near inexhaustible, keeping our bank account balance at nearly zero all the time.

Now what is wrong with this good work, you ask?

Nothing. Save I thought and think labour funds needed to be more effectively targeted at people, causes and movements, like a larger investment in Food Banks, and other similar grass movements of women and the poor etc., that assisted not only their immediate needs but the possibilities of actually helping these people to organize and build a structured power base for themselves. Why? As a way to building that great movement of ordinary people that I think is going to have to be built, as part of effecting serious economic and political change within the system.

The labour movement in many regards is overly and too randomly generous in fact, to the degree that is actually a criticism. In my view, their charity cash needs to be more effectively targeted in larger sums, towards a few good causes, not "politically partisan" ones, that actually offer some possibility of organizing people on the home front, who are currently powerless and outside the protection and power potential that only something akin to labour organization can give them.

The best charity work is that which is actually effective at organizing and empowering people, not just financing "charity" bureaucracies and ongoing states of dependancy, in my view. And especially, as some have made the point here, charity needs to begin at home.

I'm presently surprised! 8-D

And your own criticisms are noted. I would think the same in your shoes.

Coyote, you old dog, you... holding out on me this whole time. Can you provide any links or union names and organizations that I can research to familiarize myself with so that I can junk some previously ill founded assumptions (you know, some)?

And here, I was thinking that unions were, for the most part, after the dough just like any other for profit corp. Any links you could provide for names and numbers would go a long ways into shining the tarnish off of their media soiled reputation.

Already scheming... what a good story it would make in the media, if it could ever get past an editor into print! It would definitely make for a good investigative journalist story that the Tyee is offering in the way of fellowship funds... I'm somewhat inclined to make a bid for it just for the fun! (and yes, the money, always the money, lol)

Frank: CUPE, CAW, I'll look into it. Thanks buddy. Just out of curiosity, what do you think of Bob Rae on the NDP Federal scene, in a leadership role? Haven't thought about it much, but...

well.. brain is right on in many ways and I think I know where he`s coming from but...as a former member of the Executive(1st Vice Pres.) of P.P.W.C. (Pulp, Paper and Woodworkers of Canada) (Woodfibre Local 3..the one they just closed down when they decided to move capital elsewhere..where bigger profits could be made...plus removing the eyesore of the smokey old pile of pipes on the sea to sky route to 2010.)
I can attest to some of the many contributions we would make with our Union Funds. First a few words about PPWC...to escape American domination, corruption and heavyhanded top down control the founders of the Union fought (early sixties) for Canadian and local Autonomy. After a hard fought battle against the corrupt(convicted in 1979) American Parent union AND the Canadian Labour Congress we were formed in 1963 by five B.C. locals. We are not affiliated with the C.L.C. or the B.C. Federation of Labour.
We were constantly solicited for donations from many and various charities and local minor sports teams which we tried to donate to as our financial situation would allow. Myself personally I was more in favour of giving funds to local anti-poverty groups, foodbanks etc. than the status quo charities such as United Way ,Lung Association, etc. We always gave funds to them all..the Salvation Army, sponsering local minor teams etc.
Recently a lot of our finances were directed to assisting those members of Locals whose Mills have been shut down. (1500.00 a month from our local..each local donates as per their choice or not at all if they so choose) At our Convention we donated $5000.00 to the N.D.P. (by vote)prior to the last B.C. election where we felt we desperately needed rid of the neo-libs or at least form an opposition.
We have helped to maintain the local Labour Committee financially tho it is affiliated with the Fed and CLC..however they do good work..Womens centres..Worker National Day of Mourning..and many other contributions. We have supported movements in Cental America and elsewhere where there are struggles for workers rights.
I could go on and on here (I already have) but I could perhaps(I`m retired now)send you a copy of our Constitution and I could try and get you financial statements and data.
I know what you mean about the big business unions..one sides as corrupt as the other.
As Bob Dylan said in his song "Union Sundown"
"Sure was a good idea..til greed got in the way"

Try the BCFed web site (BC Federation of Labour), the BC Teachers Federation, and of course, an old union of mine before CAW, the HEU or Hospital Employees Union. All of these will list officers and pr people that I'm sure you could contact for info. (Unions do not typically advertise the "charity" causes they support. Frankly, there are just too damned many. Just about any "serious" group that sends in a donation request gets something in fact. (Again, back to my criticism of this aspect of their work.)

Unions are not organizations of saints. They reflect the very real people who make them up, their good qualities, their warts and all.

I do not think unions are are the problem here.When making a product or building somthing union means quality the product was made buy a skilled worker.I on the otherhand dont work for a union but will when the time comes.I work with 95% foriners some only been here for 2 months.Thier skills and now how are not as good as a bc trade school taught skilled worker.So i would not blame the unions i would blame the government for 1.Taking on a project like the olyimpics when it should have known we dont have the skilled labour to build it.thats simple buisness i would not try to build a bridge without a shop or employees.2nd thing i would blame the government for causing this problem I am 24 years old i gaduated in 2000 when i was in high school there was never any mention of a carrier in trades.Only things i remember was teachers saying you better get A"s or you will not get in to collage or university also causing this problem of a skilled worker shortage.

For some progressive thinkers I'm surprised by the fatalism and resignation to letting nations decide where individuals get to live. Funny how we can see closed borders as a desirable thing when we've already got all we need. So much for we're all brothers and sisters under one sky.

Stump, I see it along the lines of how I don't make enough money to make sure every poor kid in Canada gets every opportunity the richer kids get. If I could afford it I would.

But right now there's either no work or not enough work for 20+% of the existing population so bringing in more workers makes no sense.

Also, we have to realize that stripping poor countries of their few skilled workers is not helping those countries. Not at all. Training those people in those countries costs money. The strength of any country is its people and if we keep skimming the best from poor countries they will never move forward.

The brain

You want links to unions. Try the BC Federation of Labour, or the Canadian Labour Congress web sites. CAW, BCGEU and so on. As many as you might want.

In passing I might add, I was a union person for about half my working life, the rest of it being Military. The two national unions I was a member of, had right in their constitution that they would not give any money to any political party. and of course the Constitution was approved by the general membership vote.all offciers were democratically voted into and out of their positions. Sure some of us tried to convince our brothers and sisters to vote for a party that we figured were taking the interest of working families to heart. Did they all vote that way? of course not, we live in a democracy. Union people have families and mortgages, need health care, good schools, just like everyone else. It's in their own interest to understand who is shafting whom.

People are happiest when they have a chance to stay at "home", with their families and friends.

I never wanted to leave my "home", but was forced to flee for my life for political reasons and have been at first a refugee, living in camps and barracks for 6 years and then an emigrant for a total of 62 years in 4 countries, with 3 citizenships.

Canada has been my home for 51 years now and I still pinch myself to be so lucky to live here. I've never gone back to any of my former "homes" and never want to, even for a visit, as I'm very happy here.

But I didn't ask for being forced out of my birthplace, just made the best of it.

Which is far more than most emigrants can say, when they keep on wearing their traditional costumes, wave their flags, vote in the elections of their old countries, keep speaking their languages and demand their children to speak it, keep going back every year and so on and on.

These are signs of not being happy, not considering their new "homes" as their own, so why force it on people for "economic reasons" ?
There are no such real economic reasons, except in the warped minds of ideologues.

This idea of people moving freely, anywhere they want to is silly and counterproductive. It is nothing but so called "conservative" propaganda to make people always keep moving to "where the jobs are". The Reform Party of Harper was great for this, trying to depopulate the Maritimes.

It is far more efficient to take the jobs to the people.

Very few people, who never experienced it, realize that many emigree communities are virtual snake pits of violence, gang warfare, self appointed leaders pushing people around,
forced marriages, children kidnapped into forced religious teachings and disciplines etc. etc.

I could say a lot more about things I have experienced and seen, but that would bring on the cries of "racism" by misguided do gooders.

The answer is the greatest degree of self sufficiency for everybody, anywhere on Earth, so they can enjoy their own "homes". It can be done, but not under the present economic nightmare theories forced on us.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

My local msm has been reporting, for about 2 years, a lack of students going into the trades programs. They say it's because graduates all head off for university. My 18 year old applied for the welding program at our local technical college and was accepted - he's on a waitlist with a start date in 2 1/2 years (that is only an estimate and they cautioned him not to make definite plans to begin then).

A friend works for the SK Apprenticeship Trades Commission, she says that businesses don't really want to participate in apprenticeship programs. She's not sure why.

Governments need to ensure that educational programs are in place and business needs to pick up their share of responsibility for training our youth too.

About the Olympics, isn't David Emmerson going to look after things there? Not to worry!!

Coyote & Bob the Cat:

Thanks for your efforts guys. I am probably the most to blame for my own shortcomings with a lack of knowledge when it comes to unions. Am glad sites like this exist to expand my own horizons of awareness and thought...

I'm going to do some digging here. I'll take your suggestions to heart and give it a good long look, Coyote. And if I decide to do any articles down the road with unions, Bob the Cat, I'll definitely appreciate what you can give me. However, I believe I should be able to find most, if not all of what I'm looking for online. Again, I must confess, I'm behind the 8 ball here because I haven't yet looked, but I will.

Unions are an obvious and needed component to society. Unions have not only raised the standards of living in this country and beyond, but they have raised the standards of working and there is much opposition against them from a CEO point of view, because many (but not all) CEO's look at it from an annual basis, if not a quarterly one. As such, profits overtake the primary goal we should all share, and that goal is life. And yet, as Coyote points out, "unions reflect the people who make them up, their good qualities, warts and all." Its just not black and white.

Its about the quality and longevity of life, all life never mind our own, and when we lose site of this, usually to self interests, then we've lost our integrity and our morality.

Some of us are still working hard, keeping it all going, because for some of us, its what we know. Its what we do.

I've learned so much from sweat. From effort, whether it was from design and production, to marketing and consumption. And its what we are missing. How many CEO's know it? How many CEO's have walked and filled the shoes of the roles of their employee's, from design and production to marketing and consumption? Cause that's what's missing. Not seeing it from all angles.

I believe it all comes down to the thinking inside the box, the "back yard effect", the world being only as large as the one we've travelled and really, I'm not so sure we can truly see the big picture without knowing the views of others to fill in the blanks and for that, we have to look. Thanks for your perspectives, gentlemen.

DPL, Ed, Frank and the rest, thanks.

- the idea of people moving freely is silly and counterproductive
- better to move the jobs to the people.

But, if you're saying it's OK for capital aka jobs to be trans-national, why not people... whose capital is their labour? I don't understand why we allow money this freedom but not people.

It is simple. In the past, colonizations were accomplished with the power of arms and religion, today with the perceived power of imaginary, fiat capital, which is a religion in itself.

The free movement of capital is a crime wave and should never be allowed, because it does force people to move with it. I've never said that this was OK and have been fighting against it since the US Canada FTA first raised its ugly head 20 years ago.

The main purpose of the free movement of capital is to imbalance people and make them totally reliant on the controllers of capital, destroy all forms and degrees of self sufficiency. This is also the purpose of the forced depopulation of the rural areas, going on here in Canada and all over the world right now, because urban people have to buy everything for survival and this jacks up corporate profits and the GDP, while "moving to where the jobs are".

Ed Deak.

Brain, I guess I should be amazed at how low you will go to court allies to back your anti-union views.

But shallow attempts to ingratiate oneself with others for ulterior motives is really quite amusing to watch.

It's almost street theatre, I'd say.

Snidely, I think is the word that best describes your manner. It's good that you have now joined in agreement with that poster who sees stalkers in each rebuttal or question.

Actually, I think you two are book ends, almost like one mind. Eerie, sort of.

Look, Brain if you think you can argue and make real points in a debate thread, why do you leap into another thread and then make cheap and insulting comments about someone you ran from in the last thread?

As I've told you several times, read some labour history before blathering off without a fact to back you up.

Oh, by the way, you can call me a "dingbat commenter" if you like Brain, but why are you waiting for a union member or rep to step forward to fill you in on union issues?

Didn't you have all the facts about unions back in the last debate you bailed on.

Now, you are quite new here so I am not going to call you an idiot, perhaps just a loudmouth, but not an idiot. Anyway, the Tyee got its initial seed funding from the BC Federation of Labour.

When you quit choking Brain, listen to me this time and go and read a little labour history. You know nothing and it shows. Take your friend too.

And one more thing. I don't give a damn about your perceptions or what you think the "public's perceptions are.

Your views, since the day you arrived at
Tyee, have been anti-union, whether you are aware of that, is another issue entirely.

gordon campbell is a traitor, plain and simple.

intervening in markets (when that intervention protects british columbia's people) is a blasphemy to his ideology.

intervening in markets (when that intervention attacks british columbia's people) is yet another holy move.

SDGreen while you have your head so firmly spinning in your fundamental orifice check and see if cheap foreign workers can do your job.

There are 20,000 plus people in this wonderful province who could be available to do all sorts of skilled work if the government had invested in their education and training.

Note the recent 2.3% for the public school system and 20% for the rich private system!

Who is Gordo investing in ... only his rich buddies.

Wake up B.C.

You're right I didn't need to be quite so 'gloomy'. I do get discouraged when I know there are so many creative and innovative 'brains' outside our political structure, unable to fully contribute to the governance of a just (ie. understandme's nephew) and stable economy that is not hostage to the vagaries of governing political parties. The NDP are so afraid of being labeled reds or commies that they have lost the courage that Tommy's leadership provided.

Until Carol James, recent provincial leaders have been fueled by arrogance, not the deeper understanding that is required to achieve stability. I hope she has the support she needs to take a moral stand and withstand the pressures of "special interest groups" and I'm not talking about the poor or environmental advocates who also usually suffer from lack of sustenance.

There seems to be some misconception that government should be run like a corporation, which is why there is so much corporate thinking on the part of the left. It takes a lot of time and trouble to get input from constituents, which is why most politicians don't bother, the other reason is that they don't want the 'little people' telling them what to do. What they don't realize is that people don't trust politicians anymore because they don't consult with the people. They listen to the representatives of powerful lobby groups.

Take Chuck Cadman, his constituents loved him because he took the time to talk to them. He built a legacy of trust in that community.

There is someone on this thread who is in serious need of an anger management course, whose practised and unrelenting use of abusive language leads me to think that there are people in his family that must hate his guts. No one could live with you and withstand the kind of venomous barrage you seem to revel in. No one "runs away" from you, people just get tired of being a scapegoat for your misery. If you don't like what someone says, refute it or shut up. As for your anti union accusations (not that I care), you can read the following:

Ginger danced at the end of a rope for ideals that are a far cry from the union management of Jack Munroe and Glen Clark. He did it for the working poor, their widows and children. He would have been appalled at what has been done in the name of the union. At the same time, there are still brave women and men in the unions with as much integrity as Ginger. But they too are trapped.

I would like to see the unions become LOUD vocal advocates for trades education and apprentice programs (there are so many young people going into media and electronics that there is a lack of applicants for the trades, the unions need to rebuild) as well as an end to legislated poverty.

There are way more of us than there are of them. We don't need a government to get things done, we need to build coalitions that don't fall apart when someone gets offered a bribe and decides to screw everyone else. Once we are strong, we can support a government that in turn supports a truly just society.

This post has been removed because it contained insulting material.

Tyee Site Manager

"I would like to see the unions become LOUD vocal advocates for trades education and apprenticeship programs," offers janet666.

Earth to
Janet, who do you think was advocating for apprentices for the past 100 years until Gordon Campbell's Liberals gutted apprenticeship programs for idealogical reasons?

In one posting you are calling unions scum of the earth and in the next one you are telling them what they ought to do even when they've beenb doing it from day one.

Janet666, you should join Brain in a little labour history studies.

"Unrelenting abusive language." Please explain Jane666, becasue that sounds like something Brain would write in an effort to avoid discussion on aspects of his previous rant when he is called to back up his comments with a fact or two.

Seems to me though, that you play that game as well, don't you.

Are you the sister Brain claims told him so much ant-union stuff but now won't return his calls and help him prove he's right?

Sorry lady, if you are, but I am increasingly convinced that you and Brain are one and the same.

You are both flashers, neither of you have presented one varifiable fact since you started spewing your hate and trash here.

I see once again you have another hate. This time you think it's members of my family who hate me.

Such a narrow and childish term, isn't it. I hate, I hate I hate. Did that work for you as a child Janet666?

sd green how can the trade unions in B.C. be wrecking the ecomony when they have less then 20% of the market. Most of the projects being built in B.C. are non-union and hochstein and his pals are the ones killing you not the unions. MORON!

Most union workers are working out of Province or Country so they can make some quick bucks and get the hell out before the sh!t hits the fan. I work out of Province because it is worth it for me to work at home, can make more money in six months out of Province then in a year in lotus land. I don't support local business like I used to, prefer to shop where there are no C.F.I.B stickers when I do and will drive miles to avoid them.

God help you if you get hurt on a job in B.C. now with the changes el gordo and cronies made to W.C.B., you may be paying for it but you won't get it before you lose everything you own. I have been in the trades for 30 years now and when young people ask me about getting into a trade I tell them they are better off working in a bank or flipping burgers these days.

We used to be proud and strong now we don't even tell people we are union trades people because of the stigma attached to what should be a respected industry. One of those hated union workers killing the economy of Canada, many many generations Canadian with a lot of dead buried in Europe fighting for this Country. My father fought from Sicily to Holland and Belgium yet I had a person who has only been here for three years telling me that us union workers were killing this country!

The one we built so he could come here and enjoy his non-union job! I had to walk away, didn't have a non-violent response, don't have much love for what this country has become either! My kids won't be fighting for Canada, not if I have anything to do with it!

here are a bunch of really good, bright people. They understand what needs to be done. They won't see it done, because in a democracy, the brightest people don't get to decide, because they're a minority. They will invariably be outvoted by the stupider mob, who runs to the shiny new sign of "you, too can become millionaire", and who have not the wits to query what they would want to be one for, and what the flip side is.
Solution: We must figure out how we can sell what's right to the stupider mobs in spite of themselves. How do we make that kind of wealth where 'few have too much and even fewer too little', attractive to the average Joe, when he thinks that running with the greed-oriented pack and doing their ordained dumping on some other perceived parasites will someday, somehow, give him that BMW that will miraculously transform his life? We must become as Machiavellian as the semi-clever guys in Victoria. I would recommend we study together, and discuss, 'the 48 rules of power' and find out how we can use them politically. Or even - how many remember 'Rules for Radicals'? They have their merit, too. We forget our early lessons at our peril. We will not gain headway unless we get inventive and beat these sluggers at their own game. reiterating our evangelium to ourselves will not do a darn thing. We must work to find out how we can tip the balance!

Amen.

And that's it in a nutshell, Fait. That rather than the current global corporatist attempt to lock us all into a cut-throat competition with each other, to the benefit of themselves. And when and as we get a handle on this, and we will eventually, 'cause folks are going to have to or resign themselves to a permanent state of victimhood, our charity to those parts of the world which have been so beaten down by the imperialist history of the last two hundred years, such that they cannot get up on their own anymore, has to take a quite different form than the way "the system" has dealt with it-, by creating permanent states of charity dependancy.

And that means fundamentally, rather than mere food and cash, which often winds up in the hands of ruling thugs, though there may be some need of that over the shorter haul, alternatively providing the making available of tools/technology (of many kinds) to facilitate the building up of their own self-sufficiency in health delivery, availability of water and energy sources, population control technologies, which does much to liberate the special load carried by third world women, and independant self-sufficiency in food production and husbanding of the natural environment etc.

To get to there however, in our relationship with the rest of the world, we first have to deal with our own state of dependancy in this quasi-colonial relationship we have with the US Empire, and a corporate ruling class at home that is plugged into that colonialism, and secure our own economic, social and political self-sufficiency as a people. For until this is secured by ourselves, all the rest of it remains a pipe dream, towards which the negative side of it we will continue to slide ourselves, in the global competition scenario that the "Fat Cats" are attempting to lock us into, and successfully to here.

There are a diametrically opposed set of interests turned loose in the world here. They want to lock us into this state of dependancy on "global markets" which they control. Our objective interest is and has to be in working and fighting for the exact opposite-, our own national economic, social and political self-sufficiency, wherein we have cut ourselves loose from this ruling class nightmare, be it however much the fulfillment of their wet dreams.

As a tradesman ( electrician) with 35 years in the trade, I think a few comments would be appropriate. Where I currently am employed, there are NO apprenticeships, and none planned. Where I did my apprenticeship in the 70`s there were always 7 electrical apprentices- when 1 finished, another would start. In the past 6 years the Campbell gov`t eliminated what was a first class apprenticeship system (ITAC), and doesn`t need to wonder why we are in a bit of a mess - they created it. And it doesn`t help to have individuals like Phil Hochstein and his ilk involved in decisions regarding trades training as he is really only interested in the bottom line. Apprenticeship training must return to what it should be- a long term educational investment.

A good article in the Victoria Times Colonist this morning talked about the number of aging tradespersons down at the shipyards. metnioned wages and the fact that a 19 year old apprentice loves the challenges of the job and the wages arn't bad either. DND is sponsoring his training. They do valuable work for the country.

The BC Government messed up apprentaship programs as soon as they could. so now we are short of lots of trades.

I noticed a article a couple of evenings ago about a big construction job , the Bay bridge down in the US of A. seems it was a massive job and needed highly skilled folks to build it.The workers, supervisors and managers all seemed to come from Canada. Guess their origional trade training was of value.

I was running a small custom furniture, woodworking, interior contracting business in Vancouver and Richmond, between 1957-79. The largest number of tradesmen I had was about 12, but mostly around 6. Originally it was called Magic Hand Mfg. later Magic Hand Custom Furniture Ltd., may still be in existence.

During all those years we always had at least 1 apprentice, sometimes 2, because I considered my duty as a tradesman and human being to train successors.

Today, businesses are set up and organized for the biggest profits on the short term and consider this the purpose of their existence.

This is being taught in universities as good economics and there has been some court ruling somewhere to the effect that "the purpose of a business is the maximization of the value to shareholders".

Unless this criminal theory is broken there's no solution. What I always find amusing is , when people who foam the hardest at the mouth against unions, never raise a beep against multinationals stripping the country, or the obscene profits of some corporations and executives.

Ed Deak.

The trick indeed is, to get moved beyond the mere talking here into the next stage of action, no doubt. On that we are agreed, dorothy. (Though I don't quite share your conviction of the real depth of our "democracy". Still, I am further prepared to join in testing that. :-)

And I'm convinced this here is part of beginning that process, 'cause first folks have to arrive at a place where they are at least on the same page-, more or less. :-) (The possibility of 100% agreement probably never exists.) And no doubt, even the limited "formal" electoral democracy processes available to us will be part of it. On the other hand it has to have a broader and more in depth and imaginative sweep, I think, than just that. Folks need to organize around the work, no work, poverty, child care, education and other issues of their daily lives that have the potential to lead to an eventual challenging and testing of the system, and development of alternatives to their state of ongoing "victimhood". And that has to occur on a number of different levels, in all likelihood; in the formal "democratic" processes and on the streets etc, wherever the system and its direction , and however it can be challenged. And I do not circumscribe the action people should feel they need to take in any way-, though they do need to really think about it, and not put themselves at "needless" risk to further harm. Period.

But we do need to get to there, and "the movement", if you will, definitely needs folks prepared to assume leadership and take initiative in their various mileau and communities, to get this up and flying. And as that is more and less succesfully achieved over time, then the various columns of it coming from different community directions do need to seek out each other, common cause and ways of coming together, to create a counterposing "power" to that arrayed on the side of ruling class privilege against us.

There is no magic or mystery to it really, I don't think. And it is needed yesterday. Most of it is obvious enough. The trick is securing first "the will", and then the leadership forces capable of getting it up and off the ground.

hey brain where are the welders you know making 240,000.00 a year working? The only welders I know and I have been one since 74 who make this kind of money own rigs work pipeline and this is before expenses, then they might not work for a year or more, I also know many who have sold their rigs.

Pipeliners work 12-16 hours a day driving long distances on bad roads, freeze their asses off in the winter and get cooked in the summer, feeding a lot of bugs at the same time, once the job starts they are not home for months, it is stressful, can be dangerous and very bad for the health, no comparison to what the doctor does.

Their is absolutely no job security, one cut out and you are gone, how many doctors lose their job when they make a mistake or have a bad rod or bad day?

To make 240k a year here in fort mcmoney you have to put the time in and it takes a lot of overtime, seven days a week, 10-12 hours a day for 52 weeks and you might get close!

A few of the Supervisors might make that but they negotiate and have to put up with a lot of crap, not worth it in my opinion!

240000 / 50 weeks = 4800

4800 / 40 hours a week = 120 an hour

4800 / 60 hours a week = 80 an hour, and this guy is just starting out, no wonder we can't afford our public healthcare! Question is who will be able to support their private version if we give all the decent paying jobs to foreign shipyards and kill the rest with foreign labour. Klein and his masters want to do the same thing here in alberta, cnrl might be awarding a major contract to a chinese company who wants to bring in their own labour! This while the industry is making record profits!

These salories for MDs really piss me off when my taxes pay for the facilities this guy got educated in and now he is going to reap the rewards while my medical premiums go up for a reduced service with longer lineups, and they wonder why we are getting pissed off!!!

Only in Canader you say!

Actually people are thinking of ways to train workers in Vancouver, at least.

I work for a big steel and drywall company and we just started to find out how to create some apprenticeship programs. We will see if ITACB is BS or not as well as getting hold of some of that new skills development money. Its what it will take as its pretty costly to invest in instructors/training materials etc.. and the business needs some incentive to make the expenditure.

I can find a dozen guys a day that would want to learn the trade and start at about $15.00 an hour. In a year or two they will be making 20.00 and more if they are good and fast. Top wages in steel frame these days is $25-30.00; not chump change. But they have to be able to read plans and communicate well with other workers, not something we expect a foreign construction worker to be able to do.. In fact we have had guys that do speak english but because they were scotsmen were impossible to understand... so being white/anglo isn't the issue. We need training money and fast if the situation is going to change. I don't mind if it doesn't as my wages can only accelerate exponentially as the 2010 Olympics loom at the close of the todays games... But I'll get on board and do my best to build Canada, just give me the tools.

When I had apprentices, from 1957 until 1986, the governments contributed up to 40% of their wages for the first year, if I remember well ? Ican't recall the exact figures now, but there was always such help and when they went to BCIT for a month every year, they automatically received UI.

Is there still such program,or has Campbell killed it in his "wisdom" ?

Ed Deak.

Conspiracy #1

the brain of janet666

Ursus:
Thats who I was thinking of, B pressure welders. I've met and worked with a couple as a welder's helper on some non union jobs (and I'm a C ticket myself, but haven't made an income from it yet). A 240,000 salary is streching it, but welding on big inch could do it, with enough projects going, or rounding out payrolls on shutdowns elsewhere.

There are some industrious welders out there. Its true, that one cut out and your gone, but standards have to be met and good welders know beforehand if they've left something questionable behind. Uphand or downhand, go for or against the grain (as in steel deposit grain flows with gravity). Welding is one of the highest paying and you are dead right about the risks to welders. The lungs and the eyes take the brunt.

And some doctors make a ton of dough, don't they? 8 years of school, (and brainwashing for some of them) what gets them is the prestige, the status, the money and success. I've met some good doctors and welders in my time. And I've met some true blue A holes. It the same old same old. Doesn't matter what you do, or what group or organization or church or party, or nation or race, or gender or age you belong to or come from... there's good and bad out there. What we are seeing in the overall, is that certain groups that hold the most power and wealth are the most corrupted by it. Mainly, because it was their primary goal.

Its like Allan, coming here on this thread, taking his angst from a previous one, without actually reading this one, without actually understanding that people have the ability to change their minds, be flexible, "evolve", without realizing that names have to be dropped for someone like myself to research the facts, instead of trusting the words of a deep seeded angry man.

And, as I've said in previous posts, it's the back yard effect, being unable to step outside of the box, step in another mans shoes... being unable to appreciate the evolution of growth, that keeps guys like Allan so angry... But in this mans defence (although its impossible to defend his conduct, with this, Allan is still in the crib) we won't be able to see otherwise without the exchange of views and ideas from others, without that connection.

Just had a conversation with my dad the other day, and while I was lucky to have him as a father, I in kind, past reflected that failures have to be incorporated into any kind of successful plan. Success isn't built on failure, its built on success. But there is such a thing as "evolving". Watch any toddler do a few thousand face plants before they walk, and, well, you get the picture.

It's our steriotypes, our "labels" that sewer us. And unions have them in a big way, long before I got here and posted. In reality, unions weren't really on my radar. It was where to go for better money, probably the reason why I never went. Money corrupts unless... unless your primary goal was never the money to begin with.

Dorothy has it right. "Solution: We must figure out how we can sell what's right to the stupider mobs in spite of themselves." Its a PR game and the sooner the truth is told through the media, the better off we'll all be. And I know how. These words won't be wasted.

Toptaper, there used to be all kinds of incentives and government assistance available for apprenticeships training in BC.

In fact, on any larger jobs it was a given that a good number of workers would be apprentices.

The BC Liberal government gutted the apprenticeship trades training primarily on the behest of industry, that's right the trades industry.

Apparently the bosses felt it all to expensive to fully train young people when they could get partially trained people to do the job.

That's what you get now. Apprenticeship programs that teach only what the employer feels the worker will have to know to do the job, rather than training the tradesman to meet all challenges in his or her trade.

Who do we blame?

The Phil Hochsteins are to blame. They are the one who lobbied to gut apprenticeship standards and they are the one now who are demanding the right to bring in foreign trained workers.

Why, because it doesn't cost he or his crones a penny and saving pennies is what it is all about with his outfit.

We have more than enough bright young people who could more than fill the need coming as older trades people retire.

We don't have enough employers willing to invest beyond the next fiscal quarter to ever train those young workers.

So, just as we have sat back and let others take our raw resources and turn them into secondary products for sale in Canada, we are tossing our youth to save a buck or two, knowing immigratns can fill the void.

Does that make sense? I guess it might if you simply write off your young and then try to hire foreign labour for less than standard rates.

By the way and as others have alluded to, the soaring costs of the 2010 Olympics projects have nothing to do with wage levels, which aren't climbing.

The high costs are simply greed by the developers and contractors who know they can squeeze because teh people who ought to be screeeming blue murder over costs are as wrapped up in the chicanery as all the others.

A whole bunch of really good discussion going on here by virtually everybody, union, non-union, working men and women, and just folks. Makes a great and inspiring read.

It does make clear that we are all in deep shitt though, doesn't it? Unless one doesn't mind always sucking on the dry hind tit. 8-D

What a breath of fresh air it is when we can overwhelm and shutdown these goddamned Neocons who hover about and invade here whenever they can, at any lull we take.

Allan:
Just some future constructive criticism (if you've ever learned how to take it). It would do you well to thoroughly read this thread. If you did, you would see in discussions where others have succeeded where you have failed in terms of informing someone such as myself into making better decisions than I have in the past.

Firstly, as you will find out if you take the time to read, is that gentlemen like Frank, Bob the Cat, Coyote and others, took the time to give me names of organizations that I can search on line to "better educate" myself on the issues surrounding unions.

Secondly, they did it in a polite, dignified, gentlemanly fashion. This is important in terms of establishing a harmonious exchange, as often the tyrant or control freak is a barky, loud, rude, obnoxious d**k (not to be confused with dork) such as certain commentators who sometimes ungraciously stain this site with negative dribble. In other words, I trust their guidiance and balanced view that any organization is made up of humans, of which are made up of the good, the bad and the ugly, its just how it is.

Thirdly, these gentlemen understand the need for "apprentices" and ground up education that begins with certain pieces of the information puzzle that can't come from rhetoric and "blather" as you call it, of self formulated opinion. (and trust me, its all you have ever offered yourself. You have provided no names, sites or links, leaving me nothing to go on other than your angry words)

And finally, Ed Deak has gotten to the heart of it. I'll borrow a line from our 21st PM and former CEO. "If governments are expected to actually "govern", they need to do more than distribute taxes and pay off bills." They need to administrate programs that go beyond the pale, and this current provincial government of Campbell and Co. falls far short of this mark, slashing such programs with a creation of brain drains and/or trained skill replacement as a result of the erosion of standards and funding in labour and trades.

While the main battles are fought with conflicting ideologies, the real battles are with public perception that is the largest battle ground of all in this war for human rights (of which labour is a big part of).

For whatever reason, Allan, (at least in my own opinion) you completely dismiss or are disconnected to what forums like this one are here to do. Exchange opposing ideologies so that the truth can be seen with the clear examination of the contrast of these same polarized ideologies arguing on the related themes to the articles.

For as much as people didn't like the Ron Irwins and the Elliots and you likewise with me, for example, these discussions and polarized ideologies have a way of flushing out the truth! Its unfortunate that you have not only not figured this out, but have behaved with such a negative conduct, as your past discussions, however knowlegable you thought they were, were buried by sheer angry, negativity and putdowns, along with having quoted no support links to go by with what you have previously said or claimed.

If you do believe in evolution as stated, perhaps you can practice some of your own with the way you communicate and come across in the future. Unless of course, you, like others in this world, rebel at anyone coming up with views that aren't entirely like your own. It would be understandable if we were diety's, but...

Coyote:
There was once a school of students that were known for "seeking the truth in all places, left and right (with and without the political label), popular or not". The expression was known as wayfaring, including the whole spectrum in the search for knowledge. Eventually specializations branched off into a variety of schools whose interest ultimately turned into separate systems of thought and practice, each referring to its foundation of ideas as the Way. Among them, the schools of learning that retained the most comprehensive range of interest generally came to be known as ordinary (and not so ordinary) wayfarers to distinguish them from more narrow specialists, such as Legalists and philosophers.

The wayfarers were heirs to several sources of most ancient knowledge: Shamans who knew how to alter consciousness; curers who studied the properties of plants and minerals; diviners who studied the weather, the stars, the animals, and the balance of the environment as a whole; spontaneously evolved chieftains and courts of high antiquity who laid the groundwork of civilization; court scribes and historians, whose work confronted them daily with the moral and political lessons of the ages; so-called lost people, descendants of refugee colonies founded by people of vision fleeing ancient wars, taking extended families, even whole villages, along with them; individualists, special people who were known to others but lived independently outside conventional society; and so-called sublimated or spiritualized people, who were believed to be generally unknown to ordinary humanity yet able to exert a mysterious influence under certain conditions.

Sometimes wayfarer individualists, who were looked upon with awe and reverence, would participate in society, even in government, as people who could bring an extra dimension of insight to bear on the problems of the time. Sometimes families or communities of forgotten people were discovered by seekers of the Way, becoming seeds for tales of timeless immortal realms. Extraordinary stories also undoubtedly developed from encounters with other hidden people and glimpses of their unusual characters.

In all of our stages, from infancy to elder, we are the wayfarers, the "seers" of the way. We'll emerge from our winter cocoons far more aware of the issues than we ever were, with tongue and wit honed "in writing" to lead those to the truth in the troubled times ahead. Some to shame... others to redemption, but above all, to what Ed Deak has quoted:

It doesn't come without a collective effort. And it certainly won't come with self interests unless our collective self interests are for the greater good of the whole and all of its parts.

Calvin: The worm does turn, does it not? excellent point.

Agreed.

You see coyote, this is what I don't understand. I have witnessed almost 50 years of community efforts, forming of farmers coops, food coops, housing coops, communes, artist and craft unions, organic food growers, environmental coalitions etc and the big picture never comes into focus because everyone is always waiting for "leadership forces". You get a good leader and they are beaten down by the forces of greed and lust for power. We always end up with these evil bastards for leaders. Operation Solidarity was not the only coalition to be destroyed by it's leader.

The "leaders" take power by dividing us, we keep fighting each other instead of joining together to fight the common enemy. What do you think we could have done if we took all the energy in the battle for the old growth forest and turned it against the government together to secure both the forest for future generations and retraining and well paid safe jobs for forestry workers in the value added secondary industries or any of the other trades which are crying out for new skilled workers.

As common workers for a living wage, we can't see how one affects the other, or the benefits of understanding the deeper relationships between resources and the people.

We need advisors like dorothy, representatives from the lowly subsistence farmer to mothers on assistance. Consensus building instead of arguing, compassion rather than arrogance.

I say we make a list and start crossing it off one by one. Its no good throwing money at things, in spite of thr unions generosity to needy causes, money doesn't always work. You have to organize a work party to solve a problem, find out the root causes.

It is in the corporations best interest for us not to organize in this way however.

I can see a whole new front of people who will bash me for this,for my naivete, for sucking up a burgeois notion, etc., etc., but faint heart never won fair maiden, so here goes:

There once was an instituion that took upon itself to educate young people in leadership. It did so at a very low price, being an advocate of self-reliance in all things. It was a voluteer organization, built on trust and on giving a damn, as well as on the idea of two or three generations having good clean fun together while learning to appreciate the outdoors. People will have gathered now, that I am talking of the Scout movement. It was then laid under siege from opportunists, who saw a way of making a living on it, so now it is being run by 'executive directors', 'field officers', and other kinds of briefcase animals. It has, consequently, become buried in bureauracy, become far too expensive, other than for those who are constantly looking around for 'programs' and 'activities' for their offspring, too busy to bring them up due to their efforts at scraping up the ready to pay someone else for all the things they are too busy to do (talk about chasing one's own tail!)
So, most of the material the scout masters - those who are left, get to work with, are those kids who have already gotten the stuffing and sense of self-worth beaten out of them from having to struggle for every second of parental attention. This further defeats the program. These kids cannot develop into caring leaders, but more often become control-freaks, finally having gained a bit of consequence. Bleak? yes. I have seen it happen right in front of my eyes. My kids were scouts from 5 and up, and I worked as a volunteer, until it got taken over by 'professionals', some of whom had never been scouts. I did not enjoy seeing that particular ship sink.
Now this is a good illustration of how our society collectively shies away from those ways of doing things, which could turn our kids into good leaders. It is also pointing the way back to sanity and redemption. What we broke down, we can build up again. If we want a steady supply of leaders who, as someone said, can do more that collecting taxes and paying bills, this is the end we must start with. Ideas, anyone?

Hmmm, OK coyote, if you say so.

dorothy, I think you are thinking along the same lines as bcmary

I've read about the early years of the old CCF when workshops and lectures and evening card games or cribbage games were held, all social events, with plenty of politics talked, to bond those old socialists together. Circles of friends.
-bcmary

Janet666:
Coyote is right for the most part. A few bad apples, but overall, the barrel is worth a read.

In this I know. With all questions concerning life, there are twelve general questions that must be asked. It will always come down to these 12. Origins. Timelines. Purpose. Potential. Who. What. Where. Why. When. And finally, the 3 questions that deal with success and failure. Will. Goal. Plan.

As you have pointed out, with one of Coyote's quotes, It originates with will. The goals must always accomodate the four abilities within all Canadians. Accountability, responsibility, susceptability, and sustainability. As we soon see, Not everyone can be held accountable or responsible.

We have dependents in this country. Infants, children, some womens groups, the disabled, the elderly. There isn't one neocon that originated or will end up dependent, I don't care how rich or poor. The whole idea of doing away with systems that look after dependents or educate and train the young to become independent are ideologies that will fail. The neocon agenda is disfunctional. Its about as good as one profitable quarter, mabye two.

Even the richest Canadians need to realize that our money is worthless if currency falls due to debt and inept Canadian sellouts of resources and Canadian Corps to the americans. So the goals here will not change.

Goals must address the four abilities and whats best for the whole, and protect human rights, life rights and the ideals of equality regardless of the selfish self interests that want to create the wide disparancies of classes and wealth for the sole aim of status, pride and prestige, or success at everyone elses expense. For ultimately, this same success comes at our own expense always, expense to our morality, our very happiness.

Our goal should not be to lower standards as the rich want to do with labour standards and wages or the standards of human rights and life rights. It should be to raise them to the point where there is no poverty. There is no such thing as "pay as you go" for dependents who can't. And until these goals are solidified, whether it is driven by the pursuit of redemption or shame, they must be achieved, be it with government or organizations.

Finally, and most importantly, we need the plans that work to get it done. With the best wills and goals, we are three quarters home, but the plans must be there to succeed. Above all, once that plan is drafted, it must be made public for support. It is, after all, a PR game. Are we ready to start drawing some further conclusions? I am. Lets here it from the rest of you.

Until economic efficiency is defined in strict physical terms there's no way out of the present mess.

Monetary figures can not express, or define any economic law, or efficiency, because they do not represent realities, but temporary, often violence induced, artificial perceptions.

It too me over 40 years to figure this out, it has been approved by world class scientists, used in PhD dissertations and passed with flying colours, has been used in worldwide economic forums and remains unbroken, so better think a bit before trying to knock it down.

The only criticism that may have been valid was that if use this principle, our present economic system will collapse. Which is true and it will anyway.

Ed Deak.

Fiat lux

Sounds like classical Marxist economic theory to me. It's an interesting analysis and it is essential to understanding the way capitalism works but its historical associations make it difficult to apply it anywhere but in academia.

Uhh, I say so.

That said and all shit aside, I do hear what janet 666 and dorothy are saying. Which is an annoyance. buying me some time good women, and I will reply.

It's on the leadership issue. And how that plugs into or does not, the godamned issue of action and how that all has to all come togerther.

Mercy. Mercy, Lord! They want to draw and quarter me!

I'm a man.

Seriously, I'm saying,yah! This conversation is "interesting" You ladies are intresting.

But what makes you think you are special?

Give me some fucking breathing room.

.

Okay. Then "academe" has got to change-, and adapt to reality.

Janet666:
Uh, Yah, Janet, you did use one of Allan's abrasive quotes intended for the both of us on your post and then attached "old Yeller's" tag to it. It might be conscrewed as "piling on" or a "Froidian slip". It's kind of, well, er, grey at best...

Coyote:
LMAO! I'd best keep it short from here, Coyote, don't wanna get on the worst side of women scorned and all, good luck with all that, dude. :-)

G West:
Or common sense. I'll stick to Capitalism leading inward to eventual protectionism and isolated economies on that one. I hope. And beyond that, Ed's theory is sound. Its past Hypothesis. The alternative is "Two loaves of bread for a fish!" and all that other bib lick all...

Suddenly thirsty. Even the great solvers of the worlds problems... geeze, I wonder if we can push our planet out a few million Kilometers from the sun... oughta work... for a while. Solar systems... just like one big gyroscope anyways. Gotta stop this brain from thinking and start some drinking. Must have a cold sweaty one somewhere's.

Coyote
Just meant that Marxist economic analysis is only used in academic circles. Its historical associations make it pretty nearly out of bounds in the real world. The minute one starts suggesting that a realistic appraisal of the problems of the capitalistic state economy starts with looking at things from a Marxist point of view you and I both know what the result is. Bang! You're a communist! No one has to answer the fundamental questions that Marxism poses because all you have to do to demonize such questions is call them names. Just look at what the right wing has done with the word 'liberal' in the US - they've made it into a new kind of blasphemy! Orwellian I know, but something progressives have to deal with.

I strongly reject any Marxist association with my work, as Marx was a hopeless bungler and bum in his own life and his theories have been used to kill tens of millions, many his own followers.

I have seen the practical application of Marxism and lost some of my family and a number of my friends to them, barely escaping with my own life.

I have no idols and don't follow any ideologies as, within my personal experience with all, I consider them dead end, academic pipedreams and had enough of that kind of crap.

My principle is based on strict physical laws, which are cold, measurable realities. What I'm saying is that economic efficiency is the supply of the needs of the largest number of sectors with the least resource/energy inputs. Nothing academic about this, neither does it fit any ideology.

Ed Deak.

G West:
So noted. I'd pass you a cold one, buddy, and buy the works a round for that matter (good thread it is, I agree), but we don't have computers with Star Trek drink dispensers (yet). That's it, I'm going social, taking the night off. Time to mingle. C U later, cheers.

Ed Deak:
Can you quote sources that I can find online, any web links of scientists or economic forums that have the discussions and their guidelines in writing? I'm definitely interested in taking a peak at it. You might have another 40 years in you for all I know, but I could have 50. Wouldn't mind checking out the handle of that torch of yours, if you don't mind.

Beats the Hermits lantern I use, "you know, on those paths that are narrow, windy, and sometimes steep. Why without a bright light, without knowing the way, and should a wind come along and blow my lantern out cause I didn't have a blazing torch to cling onto, I might step past the edge and fall... fall... fall... down... down... town! I think its time to go down town for one... er two. ;-) Later, ladies and gentlemen.

Oh yea sure Brain, keep me hung out here to dry on my own. :-)

I have made an not infrequent mistake, I set reality aside and got into a cheap bottle of Grants. ( I prefer a single malt, but damn, it does cost. And it pisses the Mrs. off.)

Anyway, Janet and Dorothy, I am worried -, because you are starting to make sense to me, as much like women, you are initially annoying me.

I'm sorry.

Catch you upon the 'morrow.

And I'm not shitting you. It would be nice if folks all led themselves, but they simply do not. There seems to endure, a need for leadership. How e're regrettably.

So, if that is true, and I wish I was not, then you can whine and cry all you want about the failure of leadership, their corruption and being beaten down, but it matters for squat. We still need leadership.

The mistake we make too often though, is we think that means "special" people. Nah. It means folks just like you and I. We just need to get off our asses, like the rest of them.

Hey! I want a toke on that joint!

Brain..

Look up the popular, highschool definitions of the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics and Newton's Laws on Reaction and Speed.

That's all you have to know to figure out why no philosphy based economic system has ever worked and never will. Of course, first you'll need a totally objective brain, not tied to ideologies.

Both the words of "ecology" and "economy" originate with the classic Greek word "oikos" meaning the "household"

"Ecology" means the workings, or physical laws governing and "economy" the human management of the household. Which means that the two can not be at odds, or contradicting each other.

Every economy theory in history has been based on opposing, or contradicticting the ecology, therefore they all failed, as communism and its twin brother capitalism, both based on forced collectivization and ecological destruction, have and are failing as we watch.

Ed Deak.

Gloomy
There is nothing wrong with hiring a Filipina maid, I have known lots of them and oversea’s employment is an important part of their economy. Many stay and become good citizens of this country.

Canadians are well regarded overseas in the mining business and as Marine deck officers.

Canada also is getting a bad rep for trained people coming from overseas, they are told that their degrees are worth something over here and then find out the opposite is true. I was recently helping a guy from Bangladesh who had a British Master Mariners Certificate and it was no use here, we have lots of trained people here, they just happen to be working in coffee shops, taxi-cabs and pushing brooms.

In regards to unions, many are stuck in the past and need to change or get wiped out, however they are important, have done a lot of good and still do a lot of good work. You only hear about the unions on strike and never the ones that settle an agreement without fuss. If there are problems then it can usual be traced to bad blood on both sides of the table. My sister used to adjudicate for labour law and is a labour lawyer. She says that unions can have some of the bitterest fights amongst themselves and will even lock out unionized staff working for them.

People warned the government about the removal of the apprentice program a long time ago, it will only get worse as more people retire. I was just up North and they are scrambling to find trained workers. You also need to watch the trucks as many of the drivers now have little experience. As was mentioned part of the problem is that many Canadians don’t want to do “blue collar work” or go up North where there is work.

Ed
Furniture work seems to be alive and well, lots of small companies and a few big ones are going strong. Particle board is just plain in the ass! I have two pieces here made by my friend and want to get my cousin up there to make us a corner piece. I will have to check out your work next time I am up in the Caribou.

Ed
I'm talking about Marxist economic analysis, not Marxism per se. The point is simply that that kind of economic analysis requires a lot of hard work but in the end it allocates the inputs and outputs of any economy: labour, capital and profits, according to some kind of responsible and practical functional relationship. That's not communism, in my humble opinion. As for your distaste for Marx's personal idiosyncrasies and your dislike for the variety of state capitalism that historic Communist states themselves created, I have no disagreement with your distaste for them or their record. The point is, that one can't talk about modern economics without seriously considering that way of analyzing its workings.

brain you say,

It's our steriotypes, our "labels" that sewer us. And unions have them in a big way, long before I got here and posted. In reality, unions weren't really on my radar. It was where to go for better money, probably the reason why I never went. Money corrupts unless... unless your primary goal was never the money to begin with.

Sleepless in......and counting snowflakes so here's an old quote that still relates, I think at least, in regard to the ideas of self-sufficiency and change expressed above:

"To speak of certain government and establishment institutions as "the system" is to speak correctly, since these organizations are founded upon the same structural conceptual relationships as a motorcycle. They are sustained by structural relationships even when they have lost all other meaning and purpose. People arrive at a factory and perform a totally meaningless task from eight to five without question because the structure demands that it be that way....the system demands it and no one is willing to take on the formidable task of changing the structure because it is meaningless.

But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government or avoid repair of a motorcycle because it is a system is to attack effects rather than causes; and as long as the attack is upon effects only, no change is possible. The true system, the real system, is our present construction of systematic thought itself, rationality itself, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality which produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce another factory. If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the systematic pattern of thought that produced that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves in the succeeding government". (Robert Pirsig)

The following are a number of bumper stickers sent to one of my lists by an American friend. The funny thing about life is that that the ruling classes never understand it and so we go up and down until the final breakdown, time after time. History always repeats itself on account of faith based human stupidity.

Cheers, Ed Deak.
==========================================

"I’m already against the next war."

"Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes."

"Everyone does better when everyone does better."

"Support your local revolution."

"The problems we face will not be solved by the minds that created them."

"How can it be a free country if everything is for sale?"

"We are creating enemies faster than we can kill them."

"Support faith-based missile defense systems!"

"Bring them home now!"

"A patriot must be ready to defend his country against his president."

"Freedom of speech means freedom to disagree."

"If conservatives are so patriotic, why are they sending our jobs overseas?"

"What wisdom is greater than kindness?"

"Those who abandon their dreams will discourage yours."

"Our National Health Plan: Don’t Get Sick."

"Draft Young Republicans!"

“Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Ghandi

"Fascism will wrap itself in a flag and carry a cross."

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."

The above were composed on MS Word, 48 pt. bold Times New Roman font, landscape format, and printed on white "bumper sticker" sheets available from Office Max or other office supply stores.

Anyway, I had to quickly check and make sure I wasn't too, too incoherent last night, in my comment to Janet 666 and dorothy, Upon review, it was far from great for sure, but better than it might have been. (Not good practice to hypothesize with a bottle in hand, at least here.)

On this point of "leadership" though, because I think it is an important one; if folks are sitting around waiting for the BC Fed, the NDP, or any other quasi-official "vanguard" structure to lead us into a new Workers Paradise, and I think many still are, certainly I will be dead and gone before it happens and the completed Neocon Project of New World Order global capitalism is a greater likelihood. My own view is, regrettably, these groups and parties all are more co-opted and integrated into it than they are likely to lead any significant or meaningful opposition to it, let alone dismantling and/or serious re-organization of society.

So clearly, in my mind, and I think from the evidence of previous times of "radical" social change, I at least am talking about the need for a whole different kind, form, structure and level of leadership-, which is going to have to be thrown up out of the grassroots of society, and rooted there, or it just isn't going to happen. The NDP and the "official" trade union structures may have their place and role in the scheme of things, even though I am increasingly dubious about the value of that, but clearly they are preoccupied with frying other fish, I think.

So, I think we need to dispell any illusions we may have about "serious", let alone "society altering" movements coming out of those quarters. It is more likely just not on, and they are of a greater likelihood to "wither away" themselves, indeed much are already.

And if, sooner or later, large enough groups of people and individuals can get their heads around that one, and I don't really pretend to know how near or not we are to that, then I think, worthwhile things are more likely to start to happen. And different rooted and motivated leadership a greater likelihood and possibility.

But I think it really is like Lynn gives us above, that a different rationality, way of thinking and seeing things and society needs to occur and begin to manifest itself here, that stops relying on these "another time and place" rooted leaderships and ideological explanations. (Though I will say, regardless of what Marx's personal life was like or who he slept with and shagged on the carpet, or what brand of whiskey he drank, that his major analysis of the capitalism of his time was useful, and continues to provide me with useful analytical tools. That's me. And I have no desire to force feed Marx down anybody's craw. Nor do I really consider myself a "Marxist" per se.)

Having said though that I agree, a major shift in public consciousness, awareness and willingness to "lead" themselves and push forward a whole new generation of leadership is required, I don't put a whole lot of stock in the value of "touchy-feely", get in touch with our feelings and consciousness raising groups. But again, that's me. It may be something that works for some of the ladies, I don't know. That's for them to address.

Which provides much of the explanation I think, for the failure of the "old radicalisms" out of which my generation of radicals emerged. Whether my "consciousness" is capable of enough change again or not, or even has the time within which to do so, I don't know. We shall see.

I'm not really waiting upon the sudden performance of any divine or worldly miracle however. "The change" occurs or it simply does not. Meanwhile, I do what I can and have fun with my life.

If I could just get rid of this anger at the status quo way of things. :-)

Of course, Marx was right on many points, so were Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Adam Smith, David Ricardo, Attila the Hun and everybody else.

There's an old Hungarian proverb that says: "Even a blind hen can find the odd kernel"

The point is that the theories of all have been twisted and distorted out of context and recognition and ended up as mass murder systems. Whether they're called nazism communism, or capitalism, makes no difference. As far I'm concerned, all 'isms can go to hell.

Also, all former economic theories have been developed and operated under gold standards, which is basically a barter system, while our present neoclassical, globalized market economy
sytem is based on the free creation of imaginary fiat capital to be used as the licence and weapon of colonization.

"With the deregulation of the banks, money ceased to exist as an instrument of trade and became a licence for the control of energy, issued by a special interest sector for its own benefit"

This means that all past theories and prophets are passe, outdated and in the garbage can. The old prophets are only quoted, or rather misquoted to mislead people to believe that the new theory and system has the blessings of well known past greats.

I'm sorry if I get a bit testy when the Marx name is mentioned, but it brings back so many horrible memories that the only Marx name I ever want to hear about are the Marx brothers, who, at least have produced some useful memories for the human race.

Ed Deak.

So, Do I read the situation right: we are 'between philosophies of life'?

Here is, for what it's worth, a thought that may be useful to some: We always get in a tangle about the good-evil, productive-counterproductive, win-lose, because these concepts are understood differently by different cultures and people. There is one concept which can really only be understood in one way, and that is that of integrity, taken in the strictest sense of the word, how 'whole' one is. This means how good is the agreement between what I want to be and do ,and what am I really being/doing; how I would like to see myself, and what's actually grinning at me, or sulking, in the inner mirror. It is never 100%, for that would mean we were totally self-satisfied, that all striving had ceased in us. That more we want to be/do than we wanted yesterday, makes it less that 100%. Coyote's residual anger towards the status quo is a good example.
Now, in any encounter between two people, or groups, or systems of people, or whatever human entity, everyone can walk away from the exchange with more or less integrity than they had before. Depends on what 'was in it' for each of them. One party can gain tremendously in integrity at the other one's expense, and since loss counts bigger than gain, that is an overall negative. They can help each other gain, that is a big positive, synergy can be at play. Now we could use that, since it is possible to ascertain for each of the parties in no uncertain terms, as a measure of good or bad. Overall gain in integrity is good, overall loss is bad. We only see a gain, if there is gain on both sides.
This boils down to a more elaborate explanation of the win-win thinking, but also explains why it works. All that we ever do, beyond the most basic life functions, are attempts at gaining in personal integrity. What we are striving towards can be considered our Gods. What we are discussing in these pages always boils down to discussions about integrity - yours, mine, everyone's, and against those forces that would prey on the integrity of others to gain the illusion of an increase in their own, which we have just seen is always an illusion. This is where we all have this famous line in the sand, that we will not suffer anyone to cross, where it would cost us too much in integrity to keep the peace. If there is any learning that is worth doing in the political sense, it is about that. We will find that all abuse of power is cleverly directed towards taking the underlings down with respect to integrity. That is seen as making them 'manageable'. We differ individually in how patient we are, and how good our defenses are against loss of integrity. Also in how awake we are towards threats to it. But we do not differ in our need to mainain it. That is a universal human quest, and the most solid common ground we have.

If not entirely, certainly I think this observation about current socio-economic reality is largely true. And though we have our different read and experiences with "marxism", is why I can agree yet with so much of what you say about current society. (Marxism is not a "religion" with me, but something I have picked and chosen from, along with many other Schools of ideas and social analyses, as has struck me useful, balanced and appropriate to the real evolving world I experience And eh, I have been noted for my "prickliness", so I have no choice but to extend you the same "privilege". :-)

Certainly, as I have experienced it, at least in part driven by what has occurred at the level of "money capital" itself within "the system", and which you describe very well I think, Fait, I agree that we are in a whole different level and stage of capitalist, more particularly "corporate capitalist" development. And that this is true, is part of the explanation for why not only so many "ordinary" folks are having difficulty getting their heads around what is happening to them and their society, but also many ostensibly "learned" people within the trade union movement, other social movements, and no less the "social sciences" of academe. It occurred so suddenly and has evolved so quickly out of the ruling class circles and management levels of the system, that everyone is still basically in a kind of state of shell shock, and maybe, maybe just beginning to awake from now. (I'm not really terribly sure about the current state of awareness, but one would think the message should be beginning to get through by now.)

And, like you say, much of what we have previously learned and understood about "the system" having been bypassed by real development, and rendered passe, I think we really are at an intellectual place where we need to re-work and develop new social and economic theories and models to (a) give us useful explanations of what is occurring within the ruling class system, and (b) provide a guide for citizen action on where and how to deal with it. And which needs as part of that, to prepare and evolve a useful alternative social and economic model that better serves the real needs of real people, than does this status quo "privilege" serving model that is being rolled out for us to cope with or die.

Some here seem to still think there should be a wave of the hand, by some "vanguard" or other, and it be done. Uh, uh. Not bloody likely And it is important we get our heads around the implications of that one too. Unless one wants to follow the resurrected mistakes of the past into the future-, which I for one do not.

While I think one can use the past as a guide, somewhat, and cherry pick from it what mayhave been useful, I think the greater reality we need to accept is more or less the one you advance. If there is "a plan" out there, it is yet to be articulated, created and put into motion.

Everything needs to be rethunk, pretty much. And even then, ideas in and of themselves don't change squat. People in motion do.

Yeah, I guess one could summarize it that way. Also, the old certainties and "articles of faith" seem to need some revisiting and overhauling. :-) Which seems to need to be done every once in awhile to keep ones head up to date and more or less current, like spring cleaning. 8-D

Right! we agree, OK?
The point was that captains of industry,living in multi-million dollar mansions and sending their older offsprings to private schools, simply are too cheap to hire a professionally trained Nanny!
Sure they agree that early childhood training is important, and would love it if their kids learned "European Manners".
But when they learn it will cost more, and that they will need to provide decent quarters, then they do what they alwasy do: they go for cheaper labour!
And that my friend was the parrallel!
These bandits will create a shortage right now, to get permission to import cheaper tradespeople.
They admit that most olympic venues will be up 2 years ahead of time.
So if they were to stretch those jobs to fit the timeschedule, there would not be any shortage!
And i too have met filipina Nannies they do a good job, and often have to live in sub-standard converted closets, having no real benefits.
They are exploited!

Good writing, Ursus.

That's the real twisted history of the time since the late 70s and the Kerkhoff and Richmond Steel disputes, and the betrayal of Operation Solidarity, brother. And we are still in it, with the same betrayals going on. We need to remember them all and keep the anger alive.

There really does have to be a time for vengeance out there. I keep hoping.

You know what, I apologize.

I just get tired of the abuse so reminiscent of the threats and verbal abuse gauntlet of loggers families the old growth defenders went through on a daily basis.

I break my own promise to myself to ignore these pointless insults because it is like poking a stick through the fence at an enraged german shepard, which is cruel when you know this person is obviously struggling with anger managment problems.

) Thanks for that, Lyn. Nice to see more women joining the discussion.

How do we manifest this? Take it from this dialogue to the "real world" without becoming immersed in political parties or a powerful lobby group.

I wish I had more time, but I have been neglecting my own work to come here, thoroughly read all the great postings and talk with y'all. deadlines, deadlines, deadlines and all that represents.

some things never change. 100 years ago the unions did their best to restrict immigration to protect their member's jobs. clifford sifton and his 'open-door policy' was replaced by frank oliver, who enacted the head-tax and continuous passage legislation to keep asians out. it's okay to discriminate in the name of unionism though, as they do hold the moral high ground you know.

its easy to hold the high ground when the government you are fighting is fraught with traitors.

this whole problem is one created by the campbell government in the process of systematically excluding the people of bc from participating in the economic benefits of resource extraction.

rather than represent our interests in getting us a larger piece of the pie, they are betraying us in order to allow the largest possible wealth extraction.

let us remember that many of the resources of this planet are finite in nature. we dont have to compete to develope them, in fact the demand and subsequent price will increase with time.

campbell and his traitorous cronies are doing everything they can to give it all away before anybody catches on to the reality of what its worth.

and in that feeding frenzy they are not even willing to allow us to share in some of that wealth in the form of decent wages.

steal my overtime to line the pockets of some fat foreigner, or import scabs from some third world country just to line the pockets of gw's friends, and I'll call you a traitor too.

tks,
rjm

'steal my overtime to line the pockets of some fat foreigner, or import scabs from some third world country just to line the pockets of gw's friends, and I'll call you a traitor too.'
racism thrives on this thread.

"it's okay to discriminate in the name of unionism though, as they do hold the moral high ground you know."

yeah, well, actully, they do - because they were right, you know. Their attempts to keep 'surplus' labor out did not work, and the distance between rich and poor is increasing in Canada as we speak. Real income for people on the factory floor is less than it was thirty years ago, when my hubby and I , both on minimum wage for a while, could actually save up money every week.

The discusiion is not about being petty and greedy. It is about how we view the working class. In the old days, when you could still get 'good help', it was accepted that those who did the nitty gritty would not really have a full life. They would sort of stay in a 'junior' position all their life, never marry and have family, for they could never hope to do that on their wage.

The discusion we have now is: should part of the population, those in 'unskilled' jobs, accept those terms on which to live? should they accept a life-long membership in a servant class, or should they be paid well enough to 'assert themselves' in terms of having home and family and so on?

In some cultures, extended family beats those dsitinctions by pooling some of their resources and supporting each other, and thus enabling members to live better than they otherwise could based on their individual incomes. Part of the price for that can be, that some family members accept a somewhat subservient role within the family unit, which might not have been acceptable to people of another cultural background

This is thus a discussion that strikes to the heart of who we are, how we live, to what extent we will become full-fledged members of society, and how we perceive our own status. It cannot be taken lightly and not just seen in terms of more or less moolah to buy the icing on the cake.

More bald-faced lies, hypocrisy and Nazi-style revisions of history from the apologists for the corporate dictatorship:

>some things never change. 100 years ago the unions did their best to restrict >immigration to protect their member's jobs.

The truth is other than a reactionary campaign by the Knight of Labour in the 1880s, which was later changed to support rights for immigrants, the labour movement has often been the only public interest force to stand up for immigration and immigrants rights.

The IWW (The Wobblies) who organized the forest industry and railroads at the turn of the century (before being absorbed by the IWA and CBRT) organized very successfully among immigrants, and the unions that followed did the same.

Since then, the Canadian Labour Congress has constantly called for an open immigration policy. However, this has always been based on providing immigrants with equal rights--including wages, benefits, and the right to vote and form unions.

Hitler Hochstein and his clique for profit-sucking parasites want foreign workers, not as equals to Canadian workers, but as slaves forced to work for less. He pushes this factless assertion that "labour costs" are to blame for Olympics overruns rather than the fact his clique won't train, pay or respect the right of workers to organize that is lowering productivity.

Here's a real peach:

>clifford sifton and his 'open-door policy' was replaced by frank oliver, who enacted the >head-tax and continuous passage legislation to keep asians

The truth is the head tax was introduced and supported by anti-union corporate controlled Liberal and Conservative politicians. Who has always opposed it? The CCF/NDP and the Socialist Party before it, along with most of the labour movement, opposed it and since then have repeatedly asked for redress, just like for Aboriginals and interned Japanese.

>it's okay to discriminate in the name of unionism though

Not it isn't, since racial discrimination runs contrary to the very concept of unionism, and it's an historic fact that anti-union forces are the ones most fiercely promoting racism.

>as they do hold the moral high ground you know.

They do, at least in comparison to the profiteering dictators and their slimy little apologists and political puppets who clearly have nothing but lies on which to base their worthless irrelevant existence. Historically, unions across the globe have fought for equal rights and mutual respect—consistently opposed by the slave-traders, feudal landlords, capitalists and colonialists and dictators, like Hochstein, Campbell, Asper, etc.

>racism thrives on this thread

No, it thrives among the corporate elitist cliques and anti-union sweatshop racketeers who want to bring in foreign workers only so they can pay them squat and deny them basic rights and freedoms and then boot them out and send them back home when they're done exploiting them.

You serious about fighting racism? Then fight Hitler Hochstein and his slave labour agenda.

I'm not sure if you posed this question, and then immediately attempted to answer it thereafter, or whether you intended that as a second question. I suspect the latter.

In any case, my intention is not to dismiss entirely what people do in political parties and lobby groups. People will do what people do, and in that, all enter the causal chain somewhere. I assume? :-) The "vanguardists" exist. I just don't think they are the most important thing going on right now, and are "not likely" to be sources of leadership for people, in any really significant way. They are doing only what and insofar as they have to, in defence of their larger organizational "career interests". No more. All of them. The same applies to trade unions, in my read of them, since Operation Solidarity's untimely demise.

But more important to me is what occurs or not amongst the great mass of ordinary, dependant on their labour for survival, working folks. My class milieu, and that of my family. And there is no doubt, as the new neocon system rolls out, their lives and security are being increasingly negatively impacted. And as the strength and influence of the trade union movement diminishes, and it sure as hell is, their incomes/purchasing power, security, and capacity to influence "power" in society, are all going deeper into the tank.

Where the tipping point is out there, I've given up trying to guess anymore, because folks are bending over to take it up the old hoo-haw, way more and deeper than I ever thought, but a tipping point does exist. Now, it may only occur when say the US economy slides into the toilet, say around the consequences of their Endless War, and they're already the major debtor nation in the world, with some of their worst potential enemies sitting on piles of their paper, such that if they ever turn it out onto the money markets of the world, the US as a viable state is burnt toast. (China comes immediately to mind.) In which case, "the bubble" of the current Neocon period, and its disconnect from all economic reality, is going to send a major economic tsunami through our unrealities as well.

How they will move, what forms it will take, I don't think one can possibly know entirely in advance. Save that unravel suddenly and dramatically worse their lives will in such a scenario, and along with that, their illusions about the essential beneficence of the ruling class system. And there is nothing like losing your illusions about a thing, especially involving such critical elements of one's life, to set one up straight, clear one's head of cobwebs and send one into motion.

So, we shall have to see. And most working class folks are already aware that the quality of their lives is suffering serious slippage, regardless of all the assurances of the ruling propaganda system. And many have indeed already and are falling over the edge-, though still a minority that can be ignored, more or less. Though folks, as the system intends, as a disciplining tool, do know that these "fallen folks" and danger are out there, and closer than they might wish. But there is still just enough of a fingernail hold left in the system, for enough folks, and the system "manages" it as best they can, 'cause they know the risks for themselves too if it slides south "unmanaged", that one's illusions of "a better day comin'" can still be clung to just about that much as well.

So, we are not only "between philosophies of life" :-), but between the proverbial devil and the deep blues sea, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Another Braunshirt bites the dust. Good shot, Tyee Fan. :-)

Another Braunshirt bites the dust

TYPICAL RABID UNION RHETORIC !!!

no dialog from tyee fan other than dragging out UNION RHETORIC ! everybody that don't agree is against us ! if you don't look ,smell,talk, think,walk,whatever,the same as us...you are shit!

SMALL WONDER THE RIGHT WING HAS NO PROBLEMS GETTING THE VOTE AND MORE PEOPLE IN THEIR CAMPS,WHEN YOU HAVE RABID MORONS SPEWING...JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE THAN THE BROWNSHIRTS !!!

and if you look at who the BRAUNSHIRTS were...
they were the same DEMOGRAPHIC you come from ,but i know you won't let FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF YOUR RANTS...

like i said...SMALL WONDER THE NORMAL CITIZEN GETS SCARED SHITLESS LISTENING TO MORONS LIKE BUZZ AND HIS BOYS...

even though my mother helped bring in UNIONS to the Grocers in Northern Ontario back in the sixties and my father picketed INCO...more than a few times....they both used COMMON SENSE when dealing with others in the community...kindness and consideration always opened doors for them...while the hard core was left behind to look on....

then again....THEY REALLY SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF THE BRAUNSHIRTS...something you will never know in your little world of lies !

there already is a temp workers program and it's called a working visa. there is no end to the hate and greed expressed against citizens right now by ingrates like Hockstein, Campbell, Bush and all the other oportunistic lowlifes.

Sam Sullivan, the prime example of good social programs - the hospitals that cared for him so his parents didn't have to go bankrupt, the rehabs staffed appropriately with the best programs, BC Housing and welfare that gave him independence, the public sector union employees that cared compassionately 4 him... Great thanks you and we are getting now. it is the same for the others too. biting the hands that fed them.

I find it amusing that when we oppose the crime wave of colonization, in the name of "globalization", we're called "racists".

Nobody in Canada is opposing employment, or union membership of visible minorities.

I speak with an accent nobody ever complained about, and used to run a small shop, but I've "created" more net jobs in BC than 10 carpetbagger multinationals, whose demand is more profits with less employment.

The forest industry, owned and controlled from abroad is now running TV ads praising itself for employing 40,000, when 10 or 15 years ago it was 90,000 and before that probably the double, looking at the forest employment figures in our area.

The export of jobs to Asia is the worst form racism and slave labour.

I wish our neocon friends could come up with a better lie.

Ed Deak.

yyyyyesssssss

again. what needs to be changed? working visas are already in place. could it be the so called free marketers want to exploit foreign workers? drive down wages? create a class of slaves who were formally their next door neighbours. ie us?

Spot on Zoe. Good to read ya. :-) Yyyyyyessssss!

Marketeers want to EXPLOIT the market!!!

that means us...them...everybody !

we get caught up in this US/THEM quagmire and it hurts everyone of us .people have to remember that there is a finite life to their dreams and most people will never realize their dreams unless someone else is denied their dreams...US/THEM !

job sharing and a healthy mindset might give more than a few their dreams of comfort and leisure...only problem there ,is, man's/our greed and need for power.

SO IT'S NOT ONLY THEM !

they get sucked into buying beemers...

we get sucked into buying chevys...

they buy guccis...

we buy daytons

and as far as SLAVES go...WE ARE ALL SLAVES OF THE SYSTEM.

time for a change of MINDSET I'd say !

Read the contents of the now negotiated GATS if you want to read a horror story.

Under GATS there won't be any need for working visas as companies will be able to buy any public service, health, education, water, sewer, and 160 more sectors and import their slave labour to run them.

Now, that will make our neocon friends smile with joy. The Liberals were ready to sign it at any time and Harper is drooling to do it, because, as his great Reform Party used to say: "Canadians priced themselves out of the markets". The slave markets.

The funny thing is we weren't priced out of the markets in the 50s and 60s, with ever rising living standards, because we were the markets, we produced things for ourselves. Now, with so called globalization and fraudulent economic accounting, we can't make anything, but have to export our resources so we can buy them back.

According to World Bank figures 20 or 25 years ago, only 13% of Canada's exports were resources, the latest I've read, some years ago, it was 65%, so now we're more "efficient".

What our crooked economists and politicians fail to mention is that the export of resources is not an "income", but the sale of capital. At least in every business accounting system I know of, which is not only stupidity, but a crime.

Ed Deak.

UNDERSTANDME

And so, as you've said before, echoing the immortal Walt Kelly, 'We have met the enemy and he is us'. Are you suggesting we've moved too far up the river of individuality?
Where in the damn Okefenokee do we look for salvation? Adam bombs certainly aren't the answer.

HEY ED DEAK !

you are so right about the politicians !

they have no need to fear selling out because they will be taken care of...THAT IS UNTIL THEY ARE NO LONGER NECESARY!

that people cannot read the writting on the wall is a real disturbing fact.

SIX BILLION ON THIS PLANET...GIVE OR TAKE A FEW EVERY DAY...

NOW IF THAT IS NOT A MARKETEERS DELIGHT...I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS...

we no longer have the powers we had back in the last century...the new horizon belongs to the eastern and asian cultures...

with a market like that,we are dispensable...WHAT GOES AROUND ...COMES AROUND!

BETTER START THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX !!!

we have to think outside the box !!!

JOBSHARING...LOWER HOUR WORKWEEK..CHEAPER GOODS..HERES A KILLER...LOWER WAGES...

oh! oh! oh! that's not new thinking...we heard that BS before...

yeah! and now we better think about implementing stuff like this or turn ourselves into slaves...

Yep! That minority's got us outnumbered!

Fiat Lux: this is it in a nutshell

I see the stooges are desperately trying to maintain misleading control of this, as any other debate.

the attempt to turn this into a union/non-union debate is truly the work of traitors. wages of both sectors are being threatened by gordo's latest act of treason.

I have worked in both union and non-union sectors, neither group will have any patience for further moves to assault their earning power.

campbell's latest betrayal represents an attempt to artificially impose downward pressure on wages, after years of artificially imposing upward pressure on (mainly foreign) corporate profits.

people have not forgotten that the expense for favours he did the corporate sector came directly out of the pockets of ALL the working people of this province.

this may be the opportunity that organized labour has been waiting for... the opportunity to break down the wall, intended to divide the working people of this province, that the thieves and traitors who have expended such great propaganda effort to create, depend on.

every labour leader in this province needs to work toward a general strike in the spring. this issue will garner support from both sides of the building trades that would not otherwise be available. executives of clac are definitely in for a very rough ride.

I would also expect a very rough ride for labour leaders in this province who are so incompetent or unmotivated as to fail to take advantage of this opportunity.
after all, we are capitalists... right?

tks,
rjm

another forlorn idealogue spouting the mantra !

then ask's the most ridiculous of all questions!

after all,WE ARE CAPITALISTS....RIGHT ?

I don't see you putting up the CAPITAL for a BIG BUSINESS....WHICH IS THE DEFINITION OF A CAPITALIST !!!

misinformation ,by a SELF APPOINTED SPOKESPERSON....HOW appropriate!

no wonder the RIGHT WING KEEPS SCREWING US UP THE ASS...and i mean WE/US/YOU/ME...

I had a executive of an oil company tell me that Ecanna spent more money in the NE of BC in 2004 than all of the forest Companies in BC put together. Also ask any small logger how hard it is to get access to good wood in small quantities for value added products.

Also you have to be careful about how you use the term “Asia” As many of the same complaints are happening their, Malaysia is concerned about being undercut by China and Indonesia. They also depend heavily on Indonesia for workers, everything from maids to road construction.

Canada can survive nicely with a properly setup guest worker program, that gives the guest workers certain rights and protections while at the same time give protection to local workers. Perhaps a job sharing agreement with other unions in other countries?

Ed I do believe that many small Canadian companies have brought their own demise on themselves. I have met so many that just don’t give a damm about the customer or treated me so badly that I just walked out. When I do find one I like to promote it.

Understandme

So where you also at Dien Bien Phu?

I still don’t understand why you needed to chew C4, since electrical conductivity is not required, as it relies on a sympathetic detonation by a blasting cap.

By the way which units were you in?

http://www.encana.com/investor/financial_info/annual2004/resourceplays/

clicking on link #1 will take you to the details page for the bc investment.

it does show 475 million investment in 2004, approximately the equivalent of 3 new sawmills. it also shows decreasing investment planned for 2005.

I think the reason why there isnt as much investment in the sawmill industry is because mike de jong has paved the way for raw log exports to benefit foreign corporations. the bug kill panic helps to offset things a little bit, but that is short term at best.

I disagree with the importation of trades on the basis that it is completely unnecessary. it is much more logical to re-establish our trades training programs. doctors may be one thing, but it doesnt take 7 years of school time to train a welder.

first, campbell betrayed union workers, now he is betraying non-union workers... de jong has betrayed us too.

they are both traitors.

tks,
rjm

rjm; nice revisionist history bit earlier. you should go to work for chretien and glennie clark. they're trying to create a legacy.

HEY COLIN !

well defined points ! the kind of DIALOG all should be looking at and EXTRAPOLATING other ideas from...

the point on ASIA , defining their problems was not my goal...but to state the MASSIVE LABOUR POOLS !
INDIA, in itself, is one of the GROWING GIANTS OF INTELLECTUAL AND LABOUR OUTPUT .CHINA is FLUSH WITH INTELECTS AND POWER AS WELL...THESE ARE TWO OF THE WORLDS LARGEST POPULATIONS WHICH ARE FAST BECOMING THE BIGGEST CONSUMER ENTITIES KNOWN IN HISTORY...

this is something many here do not realize as the DEATH KNELL to their own RICH society...
ARROGANCE is something we in the west are not short of...the HUMILITY of the eastern cultures
enables them to do things we in the west would never think of...LIKE TAKE A JOB THAT PAYS SHIT WAGES AND IS NON UNION AND HAS A HIGH DANGER FACTOR ...WHICH IS JUST ABOUT ANY FACTORY JOB IN CHINA NOWADAYS !!!

the have nots ...want...and they got the desire to get .....and at last count....they are 2/3 of six billion people...

my service info is personal for SECURITY reasons

you are right about the C4 ...in a large enough chunk...when it's a tiny piece in a BOOBY TRAP it can be blown off the cap...something documented on training films. HELL ! when i was trained in its use, the instructors used to throw it in the fire while we we having beers ...just to watch the rookies wet their pants jumping for cover !!! so i am well aware of how it works...and back in the late sixties this was NEW STUFF...

This is an excellent discussion. I appreciate
the fact we can still have this discussion. I think that there are certain people who relate unions to laziness. There are stories that come out from back east where the car factories are where union guys show up and read a magazine all day and management can't do anything to make them work because the work is being done by some other guy but because of some union agreement on the number of people on a shift. I don't believe that this happens a lot but there are a lot of union people that take advantage of their union position and milk it for their own things. I believe that in order for us to progress, I think we need to take a step back, go back in time. Craftsmen came from guilds. I think instead of having unions, we should have guilds. The guild would guide apprenticeships and foster a healthy work environment. At the same time, we should get rid of a third of managers. I think manager is just another word for slave labour and contract worker. They don't necessarily have skills but some are good at leadership but those are few and far in between. If a woodworker's guild existed, from there the guild would offer guidance in carpentry, cabinet making, finishing, wood construction. Apprentice curriculums would not be established by some dumb bureaucrat but by craftspeople, involved in the craft. An metalworker's guild would supervise welders, sheet metal fabricators, and so on.
It would not be a political thing and the guild would oversee upgrading and recruitment.
Laborers would be the up and comers in the field. I think a re-organization of labor is needed and the political affiliations need to be pulled. I believe that in a Japanese car factory in Japan, a japanese squad of workers are given a task and ordered to properly organize and complete it. Here, you have the CEO coming down to a director which reports to a manager which directs his/hers lead hands or foremen which in turn directs the workers. Let the workers figure out how it needs to work. Get rid of the two or three middle people and there is your budget for developing skilled labour. Let the results speak for themselves. Treat people with respect and when presented with a challenge to use their own ideas, most will rise to the challenge. I believe that offering direction dumbs down the system which furthers the cause for management to keep the costs of labour down. I could keep going but I think Fiat Lux touched on mostly everything else. I think he has done a good job on talking about this subject. I hope you guys like my ideas too. Please offer feedback.

Thanks for mentioning guilds. I'm all for them as I grew up with them in Europe and saw their benefit and to my friends who were apprentices.

The campaign against guilds in North America was on the basis of so called "free enterprise" bs which doesn't exist and never has, any more than communism. The charge was that they "fix prices", which is true to a small extent, but their best benefit is that they fix quality and business conduct and training levels.

Nobody could start a trade related business without proper training, while here anybody can and screw customers and the reputation of the trades. I could get a cabinetmaker's licence for one of my dogs tomorrow.

The price fixing charge came about because guilds didn't allow anybody to start cutthroat price competition.

When I was in business in Vancouver, we had some untrained idiots come up every year who would cut prices, in some cases below material costs, then go bust in a few months, while ruining everybody else's business. I knew one guy who started and went bankrupt 3 times in a row, within 1 year each time, while putting good people out of business.

Guilds wouldn't have allowed anything like this, but neither would they allow the cheating of customers, obscene profits, the mistreating of workers and apprentices.

Unfortunately, big business and brainwashed economists and politicians would never allow proper business practices, where they couldn't
cheat, while calling it "freedom"

Ed Deak.

GUILDS...CRAFTSMANSHIP...OLD WORLD WORDS

left behind for ...cheap labour...cheap products !

Ursus:
I apprieciated your post and feedback. I'll look into those book recommendations of yours as well as the link. Thanks, man.

Tyee fan:
Excellent rebuttals.

Fiat Lux:
You've left some real gems on this thread alone, Ed. Nice job.

Colin: Hey, dude. :-)

Lynn: Your post shedding light on causal effects of illogical ideologies, especially in relation to applying methodologies on flawed systems, economic or othewise on a macro level, never mind a micro level remind me of all of the rest of your posts. Of excellent caliber as per usual.

Janet666: There's something sexy about a woman who apologizes. :-) There's no shortage of passion within your posts. It's hip, sister, but the time thing... duly noted.

Hey, Coyote:
Your last post was a good summation of whats coming down the pipe in the future. A big fat reality check. Its most definitely a bubble were in, and you are definitely right about current global realities. A devaluation of U.S. currency means a devaluation of currency to its indebtors, so its a house of cards except to those powers that aren't in deep.

And China, with an artificially low currency, could jack up their own currency to high artificial levels as it is in the U.S. and then, well... everything changes. They become the next major "buyer" and with it, along with their labor, they become the next world power.

World currency is like the markets. I believe the fallout will parellel what happens to those who get out "just in time" compared to those who don't, but the rises and falls are much slower than markets and as such, the sutleties are over the heads of most.

Just coming back to an old theme of mine with a major mistake in it, so its worth revisiting. I meant to say "There isn't one neocon that "didn't originate or will not end up as a dependent at some point, be they rich or poor. (We make type O's, brain fart on messages sometime's, you all know how it is.)

The theme is simple. We have dependents! There isn't one of us standing that didn't originate this way, or will end up this way. Even in death, the vaste majority of us are cared for. In fact, for as independent as the rich or the rich "ideal" is thought to be, we are more far more "dependent" than we would
all like to admit.

Who can see it coming from all angles? Who's looking or capable to look at it from 360 degree's two dimensionally, never mind above or below? Last I checked, our eyes are full front, not off to the side. Were predators, vulnerable... we need to get along so that our brothers and sisters in arms can watch each others backs. Its just how it is...

The neo-con label aptly describes this major disconnect to the very reasons why individuals shirk the responsibilities of paying taxes so that dependents can be cared for, to evolve from youth towards becoming independent, with schools, apprenticships and GUILDS, social programs that supply the resources needed such as daycare, healthcare, transit, social services that assist the individual in every way to become once again more independent... and why?

Because neo-cons think that they are fully independent! And its a very selfish and dimwitted view of how interconnected and dependent we truly are, regardless of how independent we "think" we are. How many of us can survive if money is worthless... how many of us can make a meal from scratch that doesn't come from a box? Some of us full grown "independents" can't even feed ourselves well enough to make it to 50.

Its our goals that fail us. What is the goal of the neo-con along with the average CEO and contractor her, and especially abroad? To make money for power and prestige. What is the goal of the average Joe? To make enough bucks to get noticed, get laid, look after the children that follow, yes, their own "dependants"... at every level it seems, our world is only large enough for us to see the problems that immediately effect us, turning a complete blind eye to the problems that are on the horizon because they aren't on anyone's radar, because they just aren't looking at challenges facing us at the macro level, challenges that will effect us all.

What are the goals of the Campbell government? Its not to assume the responsibilites that are demanded by true governments, you know, the ones that govern. Its cut and slice, stroke a few checks and download the responsibilities they were elected to fulfill on everything else.

Apprenticships are all but gone under their tenure, thanks to them. Recently, there is a push with Campbell to download as many responsibilities as they have to municipalities. Its Martin economics at the Provincial/municipal level. Whats next?

And what's next with the NDP? More casinos? If the NDP is to hope to challenge the Libs the next time round, they'll need to do better than this, and be ready for the failings of this current government. And if they aren't ready to do it, someone should be talking to the Greens, or shore up leadership there.

I've obviously been looking for love in all the wrong places.

You've all heard it before. If at first you don't suceed, try and try again. Its a big part of who some of us are. Its what we do!

There is a common denominator that should be pointed out among those who've contributed to this thread as well. We're macro minded. And just so you all know, readers or otherwise, its not as common as you all think. Most people don't spend endless hours thinking about whats wrong with the system as a whole. Its often we so often fail to address own own individual concerns, and its entirely understandable. We get buried by the stuff that gets thrown our way living our individual lives, get buried in the effects of macro breakdowns... our jobs...

As well, a good deal of us have been drawn to this story because we have either belonged to organized labor, or skilled labor, or appreciate perhaps what is the greatest resource of all in the human paradigm. Us!

But the problems with the macro aren't simple or easily solved. The plans that will succeed will require organized labor from all levels, from leadership and management on down, and the labor movement needs to be more integrated ideologically, and yet separate from goverment on more levels than it has always been led to believe, mainly because governments like Gordon Campbells can exist in the future to eliminate programs like apprenticships and educational funding in trades that negatively impact labor in a major way over a long term basis.

Financing political parties in the hopes to restore sanity doesn't cut it in principle. Unions negotiate with governments over salaries, so the PR spins and public perception is a negative one regardless of "how good" this party or that party sounds. Unions have to try ways other than financial support in elections.

And past failures with PR battles against biased media and ideologically bankrupt governments... it has always come down to who pays for it. I say, give them a taste of their own medicine. Make it become one of the top three election issues of the next provincial election in the media. There is still press that is free. Editorials that speak of issues with the politics removed can still see print.

Who's responsibility is it to fund and train? Take this message to the people, and its easy enough to see that this responsibility is shared in part by governments to finance and set legal guidelines to follow, with the consent and support of unions in terms of what these guidelines should be, and whats best for the worker. In effect, go back to what's worked for us in the past with some new tweaks, and in these respects, Chevy has offered some wonderful suggestions that should be followed up on.

Can unions or organized labor pay for what the government is saying is no longer their responsibility? Nope. Can any labor organization, guild or other wise, afford to pay for and organize apprenticships without government assistence financially? I, for one, believe that it is to a large degree, the responsibilities of governments to pay for and regulate to some degree, these programs, and the responsibility of labor groups, to respond to the needed intelligence and organization that it takes to run apprenticship programs successfully. Like we did in the past.

If at first we dont' succeed, try and try again. Its who we are. Heck, its what we do.

Understandme wrote:

you are right about the C4 ...in a large enough chunk...when it's a tiny piece in a BOOBY TRAP it can be blown off the cap...something documented on training films. HELL ! when i was trained in its use, the instructors used to throw it in the fire while we we having beers ...just to watch the rookies wet their pants jumping for cover !!! so i am well aware of how it works...and back in the late sixties this was NEW STUFF...

Well I took my training which includes boobytraps and I can’t think of any useful device that would require so little C4 that it would be blown off the detonator, even so a small tube or tape would solve that problem. It still does not explain why you needed electrical conductivity in the C4, in order to generate an explosion without a cap, a immense amount of electricity would be required and the result spark would likely vaporize the tiny amount of explosive.

I am sure that your service in Vietnam would no longer be subject to any security restrictions, as many veterans are busy writing books on the subject and many of the battlefields are now tourist attractions. One of my friends was in charge of the withdrawal of the last contingents of US troops after the signing of the peace treaty.

You mentioned that you were in country in 74 didn’t you say? Perhaps he would know you, as there was few US troops left at that time.

The first and foremost duty of any government is the protection of people under its jurisdiction.

This is how and why societies have evolved and developed into overlapping systems, right up to the national state.

I support the UN as an instrument of cooperation and protector of peace, but not as some kind of "Flat Earth Government"

The present propaganda for phoney "globalization" is a fraud to deprive societies of their protection, democratic rights for self determinatin and expose them to the criminal, exploitative demands of certain sectors. Free trade has nothing to do with freedom, but the enslavement of peoples under dictatorships.

I look at the national state not as a jingoistic, sentimental hysteria, but as an administrative unit for the protection and enhancement of all forms of life within its borders. When economic units are designed to be part of an ovelapping system, like road systems, the national state becomes an absolute
must for the smooth operation, maintenance, building and rebuilding of the system for the benefit of all.

The national state is the most logical form of government, as it gives people a sense of belonging, a feeling of safety and protection.

A national state, or even civilization, can not survive, when some elements within are demanding more military, ostensibly for protection against invaders, yet, at the same time open the doors for the sale of the infrastructure and the lives and rights of its citizens.

I have many times used the example of a road system for good economics, because our roads are the most democratic form of government, based on logic and impartiality for the protection and benefit of the users. There are no ideologies offering any "free" action on the roads.

Any and everybody is welcome to use a road system provided they subscribe and follow strict laws for the their own and the protection of others. These laws are enforced by an independent, publicly funded police force and an independent, publicly funded justice system. Although accidents will happen, the system is designed to keep the numbers down as much as possible and to deal with the offenders.

I don't know of any road system in any civilized society, where certain users may be permitted to make their own laws of use, while forcing society to submit to their demands.

We don't allow the trucking industry to use their own police force to permit and encourage large trucks to force, or crash, smaller vehicles and each other off the roads.

At the same time, we live under economic systems that not only permit, but encourage the destruction of the vehicles, properties and lives of others, to freely force anybody off the road, regardless of damage to property and lives and call this crime wave "efficiency".

Where in hell is the logic in this insane contradiction, which causes incredible damage to people and the environment ?

I have always and still support economic nationalism and protection.

By the way, there are no "cheap goods" in this world. The real costs are always the same, and economic theories are designed to transfer those real costs on others, while glorifying the thieves.

Ed Deak

HEY COLIN !

apparently you have problems understanding the english language...

my SERVICE INFO IS.....PERSONAL ! ( NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS )

FOR SECURITY REASONS ( MY BUSINESS IS SECURITY AND THE LESS I HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT...THE MORE SECURE...ME AND MINE ARE )

1975 WAS THE WITHDRAWL TIMELINE FOR TROOPS...GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT !

and at that time i was painting PINTOS and MAVERICKS at FORD .....gonna tell me what kinda paint i used...you an EXPERT there as well !

and a few months later i was contracted as a mercenary to AFRICA....AND I BET YOU KNOW...WHO !WHEN!WHERE!AND WHY! DON'T YOU ?

I've got a busy day today, but had to take a quick read of this thread. It's an important one-, I think.

But before I get back to my bread making, breakfast having taken the last two slices, I just had to acknowledge that mighty fine piece just posted by Fait Lux, in defence of the nation state, protection of the national economy, and his placing, in my view, of the UN in a more correct context than what it usually is. The great "new colonial" powers of the neocon capitalist world are attempting to mold and reshape the UN currently, into a tool for their re-colonization of much of the world, including this country. (Though we play a more contradictory and pathetic role even, assisting The Empire colonization in Haiti and Afghanistan, while we ourselves are being effectively colonized and stripped of our resources, which are the very basis of all so called wealth creation, at home. It's a measure of the degree to which we and our, what passes for national political leadership and "captains of industry" have fallen into playing the fools for Amerika's straight man.)

Good writing all-, save for the obvious bats in the belfry. 8-D.

Understandme

The reason I am asking, is because you brought it up. To have someone (likely Canadian by your grammar) make statements that they have served in Vietnam as a Ranger and Africa as a mercenary is very unusual.

According to my sources: All 12,049 US Army personnel were out of Vietnam by 29 Mar 1973

You have claimed to be a Ranger/paratrooper there between 72-74
So it would not hurt to tell me which Ranger unit you belonged to, as it would not give away any personal information

I also known people who served in the Foreign Legion, Rhodesia, South Africa, in fact one of them was until recently a Senior NCO in the Westies.

So did you fight in Chad, Angola, Ivory coast?

As a mercenary you can substantiate your claim by telling me what was the cause of much grief and annoyance for ex-soldiers leaving Rhodesia at the end of their service, which I am sure you would know.

And, totally off topic, since that appears to be where this is headed:
"Troops have also become intoxicated during field operations from exposure to composition C4 plastic explosive, which contains 91% RDX. These field exposures occurred because C4 was either chewed as an intoxicant or used as a fuel for cooking. Thus, the route of exposure was ingestion or inhalation. At least 40 American soldiers experienced convulsions due to RDX ingestion during the Vietnam War."
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/explosives-nitramines.htm

HEY COLIN!

unusual to whom ???

SEEMS YOU DO KNOW IT ALL !!!

EXCEPT FOR G WEST's posting.....DAMN ! YOU CERTAINLY MAKE MY POINT FOR GUARDING A PERSONS OWN SECURITY ON THE INTERNET !!!

now i could GOOGLE and find the EXACT dates the CHINOOKS(i beleive they were)landed on the embassy rooftop...and that was summer ??? 1975.

THE FINAL BETRAYAL...

now your curiousity is ANNOYING...YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS NEED TO KNOW ATTITUDE OF MY PERSONAL SPACE ...IS FRANKLY A LITTLE MORE THAN PSYCHOTIC AND YOU ARE SHOWING YOURSELF TO BE THE KIND OF PERSON THAT NEEDS SERIOUS HELP IN YOUR MENTAL HEATH ISSUES...OBSESSIVE/PSYCHOTIC...

YES INDEED..YOU ARE A TRUE SECURITY RISK !

IF I WANTED MORONS AT MY DOOR...I WOULD HAND OUT INFO....

end of discussion...

Well if you were a true Vet you would know why I am asking and would not mind. Going by your posts I suspect that you are a poser and a liar. Pretending to be a Vietnam veteran is an insult to all of those that served over there and I posted your comments on a website so real vets can look at them, and they are pissed.

If you are a real Vet, you could have given me a unit name that could have confirmed your service.

You know that there are Veterans out there that will hunt down and exposes phonies?

But I do believe that you know more about painting Pinto's than I do.

HEY COLIN !

EXPOSING POSUERS IS PART OF MY BUSINESS !!!

NOW TAKE YOUE MEDS ! GOOGLE SOMETHING YOU CAN QUIZ SOMEONE ELSE ON ...AND YANK THEIR CHAIN...

WITH YOUR KIND OF SPIN...YOU SHOULD BE WORKING FOR EL GORDO...OR A UNION...

DON'T WASTE YOUR TALENT FOR BULLSHIT...GOD ...ALL THE CONTACTS YOU PURPORT TO HAVE...SHIT ...YOU COULD RULE THE WORLD...

and search engines on VETRANS SITES can give you the ROLL CALL of every person in that unit !!!

SO COLIN...YOU ARE AN INTELLIGENT WHACKJOB TO BOOT...

I LIKE THAT...IT MAKES THINGS INTERESTING !!!

Gwest

I to saw that study when I was checking this out, I was also informed by someone that works for the DND that a new substance has been added to allow for the tracing of explosive that is quite toxic to the body. You can also get some nasty shakes from handling old dynamite.

Another site for RDX poisoning http://cira.ornl.gov/documents/RDX.pdf

I apologize to everyone else for taking this off topic, but I really get bent by people who claim to be war heroes when they are not. The real ones rarely seem to take any credit for what they have done.

Ed
Your road analogue is quite intriguing

Colin
Are you familiar with Walter Crawford Kelly?

These are ‘written’ dialogues and people express themselves as they do for a variety of reasons – and not because they're dissembling.

Style affects the reader far more than it does the writer; usually you have to look behind it to appreciate the content.

Technically, after all, we’re discussing labour shortages and Olympic cost overruns … but you’d never know it.

Hey Colin !

You Do Have Problems Reading !!!

I Never Claimed To Be A War Hero !!!

Just A Participant In A Dirty Little War...

Another Misguided Fool Looking For Action ...

So Save Your Righteous Indignation For The Fools That Cannot Read...between The Lines Of Your Diversionary Bullshit...

Back to topic:

The one advantage to bringing in foreign workers is that they can return to their home country when the boom runs out, or busts.

That way all those BCers who would have been encouraged to train in the trades to fill the void will not then be left to wonder why they chose a profession that now has them unemployed or underemployed.

The industry should have been training replacements for retirrees a long time ago!

I remember reding an article that pinted out that indutsry in Europe and Japan spent up to 300 hours on each employees training. While in Canada the average was 7 hours!

I wonder if this is still the case (sounds like it is).

I suppose it is the same for the teaching profession and nursing and all those other jobs and professions facing increasing retirement of their employees. So there is a drive to recruit teachers, but at the same time their is a political drive to support teachers less, blame them for strikes (rather than the other side of the table!), not regulate class sizes, etc.

Why on earth would someone want to invest in their education to become a teacher when the reality is every time a clloective agreement needs to be negotiated teachers are villified by the provincial government and many citizens!

Colin,

I've been using the road analogue for 20 years, without anybody taking notice. Which is OK by me, as I'm in a situation, both in age and infrastructure, where I can say: "You hang on Jack, I am in the lifeboat". We won't go hungry when the crash comes.

Some people go nuts when their ideas are ignored, I don't give a hoot. Just write things down, based on 60 years of studies and personal experience, and from there on they are no longer my problem.

Cheers, Ed.

One obvious problem with Hochstein's solution - importing foreign temporary workers - is the problem he himself acknowledges in the article. He claims that there is a "lack of older journeymen to mentor and train" new construction workers. At least the journeymen working in the industry now can communicate most of the time with (most of) the workers they supervise. Where is the non-union sector going to find the older experienced journeymen who can communicate with, say, a cohort of young workers whose only language is, for the sake of argument, Spanish?

Even if bringing in foreign workers were the only solution to this problem, and I doubt that it is since most of the proponents of the solution are approaching this from a political point of view, I wonder how efficiently and well projects staffed primarily by workers new to this industry in Canada and unable to converse effectively in English (I don't know of anyone who's suggested there are significant numbers of potential migrant workers in Leeds) are going to be run.

Seems to me I can recall a major project on the lower island recently that got into some real deadline and completion headaches (not to mention overrun costs) subsequent to bringing in a number of foreign workers. May not be strict cause and effect, but I’ll wager there is some connection.

Speaking about the education difference, Carl Sagen mentioned in a lecture about teaching in Japan in the 70’s that the students there learned everything perfectly as taught, but could not transfer this knowledge to the real world. However Japan did realize the problem and now they are one of the leaders in robotics. Malaysia also changed it’s course, going from a agrarian and resource base to industrial from the 50’s to the 90’s and focused on their education system to provide their citizens with one of the most stable and best social services in the region.

At the end of WWII there was a proposal to replant BC forests, it would have cost 2,000,000 back then and was considered to much money, sigh.

Just got a call from the wife, her sister and family in Malaysia just got flooded out of their house and it appears that they lost the electric wheel chair for her niece who has CF. One of the neighbours had their baby swept away, I think I had just met the baby 2 months ago, this sucks

GUEST WORKERS GOING HOME AFTER BOOM ???

ask any EUROPEAN country today what their main problem is with GUEST WORKERS !

the DANISH with their cartoons...found out how many GUESTS were in the country...TO STAY !

the GERMANS ...the FRENCH...always have problems with their young nationals (the unemployed) turning to RACIST GROUPS to solve the GUEST WORKER PROBLEM...

THE EDUCATION SYSTEMS ARE BEING MILKED DRY BY FOREIGNERS !!!SO THEY SAY...

so here in CANADA ,we have the EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM being used by students from all over the world...APPARENTLY...WE HAVE A GOOD SYSTEM !
AND STUDENTS OFTEN STAY....my DOCTOR ... my DENTIST...THESE PEOPLE WE DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT.

but people from labour pools...THAT'S ANOTHER STORY !

we have our own !!! labour pool...just can't seem to get them working...

then there's the TRADES...unions...price themselves out of work ...gotta keep up with the jones'

SMALL WONDER CAPITALISTS GROW FAT WHEN THE PIGS SLAUGHTER THEMSELVES...

TIME TO CHANGE THE MINDSET.........

COLIN.....NICE TOUCH TRYING TO GARNER A LITTLE KINSHIP IN THE SYMPATHY PLOY.....OH..YOU ARE SUCH A SHALLOW WEASEL...USING A CHILDS DEATH TO BUILD YOUR STATURE IN THE EYES OF OTHERS...

there was no need for that info ! yet you use it
for personal gain...GOT YOUR NUMBER !

there was no need for that info ! yet you use it
for personal gain...GOT YOUR NUMBER !

Angry are we?

I had gotten the phone call while typing the other stuff, so I needed to say something, I certainly don’t need sympathy from you.

Ed Deak:
Liked your road analogy as well (sucker for analogies, myself).

Freebear:
The arguement that we don't need experienced labor in skilled trades is moot, and we all know it. The argument that workers will be sitting for the rest of their lives after this project is done is moot. There will be others. The population is continuing to grow. And, there is labor from other provinces to draw from. We don't need to look elsewhere internationally just yet. Self sufficiency, in country revenue, jobs and last but not least, EXCEEDED CONSTRUCTION STANDARDS have to be met. We aren't building malls in Russia, here.

There are things that aren't coming to surface on this thread. What are the other provinces doing? Can Guilds be used effectively as a non-government non-profit entity funded by the provincial government to set standards that both Government and Union & non-unions alike must adhere to so that the Campbell governments of the future don't destroy the skilled trade drain this province is experiencing? Thirdly. What are Europeans doing? Germany. Austria. England. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy, Spain, Portugal, what are they doing? These models have to be looked at, along with the old one that Campbell scrapped in the name of "efficiency".

It is one of regulation. With teachers, its entirely about work load. Class hours, homework and seats. Its the same with apprenticships as well. And there are parellel's here. Standards have to be set at some point as to the required labour needs to provide services including training and education, standards that have to be met and followed by all governments from whatever ideologies...

The big question is, who decides what these standards should be, and once they are written in stone even in flexible terms, will we be comfortable with living with mistakes or unforseen advances as they occur? And this is why I like GUILDS (at least the name and history). I liked the idea as soon as I heard it, because GUILD's have the potential to set standards that both the governments AND unions have to follow.

But again, the question remains. Who pays for it? And its the same old can of worms again. Who is responsible? And if its government, shouldn't government simply run these programs? Well no, because governments come and go, and our current government believes it isn't their responsiblity, and now the very construction companies that called for these union busting cut backs are being hammered by a lack of qualified labor. And who loses? Everyone.

Its an election issue, folks, or needs to be and its joining a growing list. There isn't a government that can go two terms without revealing its own failed ideologies, and Campbell has several surfacing around labor alone.

?

No original thought is crossing his mind. it's a common tenet for all so called free marketers who incidently don't believe in the so called free market for workers. It's happening all over the first world, fast becoming the third. It is part of the crooked scheme to rob us by a bunch of malignant narcissists. The US public is now awake. Their politicians can't have it both ways. Be afraid, be very afraid and open borders doesn't compute. The question is, will society allow itself to become a reflection of the malignant narcissists now in temporary control of it? I doubt it.

Brain
Hang on, that 'was' the election issue. At least it was part of it. You're the fella who's been posting all the material about what Harper and his ideological compatriots are all about.

I don't think for a moment that the corporate and real estate interests behind the Vancouver Olympic Committee won't use their connections with Gordon Campbell, channeled through that great public servant Davie Emerson, to get whatever changes they need from HRSDC and Service Canada in order to get the low cost workers they 'need' to keep the profits rolling in for their friends.

This isn't really a training issue now, it's way too late for that. Whether it is an issue in the next federal election is quite another matter.

Just look at what Hochstien says in his comments - he's making political statements and asking for action from the guys that he and his mates just got elected – this is no mystery, it’s business as usual.

Have a look around you Zoe. Society HAS become a narcissistic, masturbatory, greed-saturated, debt-addicted, tv-programmed, sedentary, illiterate and morally bankrupt seething mass of maggotry. And it's even worse in the states. Many wax eloquent here on the travails and ills of today's society while gobbling resources, generating waste, and saturating themselves willingly in the ubiquitous propaganda and poisonous hatred known as Gordo's golden decade. Importing cheap labour is but the tip of the iceberg; blathering on about how unions are such an impediment to the common good typifies those who have swallowed the party line hook, line, and sinker. Democracy has been sundered, and we discuss setting up guilds? What's next? Perhaps lords, vassals and serfs? Feudalism hath arrived, in the guise of "free enterprise" or "globalization", "efficiency", "flexibility" - all buzz words used by Gordo and his kith to pave the way toward our future third world status.

doesn't sound like much has changed on the dancefloor..except for the dancers ! and of course the price of admission...

our wood is sent ...STRAIGHT OUT OF THE FOREST.
no value added anywhere means...no jobs..no money...our metals , are now being processed in mills ...elsewhere...the prices are BARGAIN BASEMENT ! OUR WHEAT...OTHER GRAINS ???

i look at all the PROBLEMS we have in our country ...and i think ! we should close the doors...AND DO A LITTLE HOUSECLEANING !!!

i know it may sound silly...but we have to change the mindset...we gotta stop the clock/game and take a timeout...REVISE THE GAMEPLAN...WE ARE GONNA LOSE THIS GAME IF WE DON'T CHANGE OUR APPROACH/TACTICS !!!

and NOBODY likes losing..........

so...TIME TO HUNKER DOWN...OR WHAT ?

AND LOOK AT HARPER ET AL....WHEN YOU THINK OF...OR WHAT ?

PEOPLE TALK OF GENERAL STRIKES...HELL,LET A SKELETON CREW RUN THE COUNTRY...AND LET THE REST BRAINSTORM.....

THAT IS WHAT I WOULD CALL TRUE DEMOCRACY !

AND IT'S REALLY THINKING OUT OF THE BOX...

nice ta see ya still reading me Colin....means you can be NASTY but still OPEN MINDED....OR SHOULD I SAY...JUST CURIOUS !

oh tommymoore !

u MISANTHROPE .....tommymoore !

welcome to the CLUB !!!

Bring in 20,000 unqualified laborers “humm” not smart they will be paid minimum wage (6 bucks sucks) "less bribe back for the "vultures" or Corporate numbered companies.
Where and how these poor souls will be warehoused?
Who gets the contracts for housing, catering, policing, transportation to and from such countries etc. just the costs of these basic things is astronomical?
As of now we have four years to get into full swing giving our youth and our many people on employment insurance & welfare who would have a great opportunity to get back their pride and a chance for the future!
Right now till 2010 we have four-years for apprenticeship programs for all trades including catering, this will give them a Trade Qualification Certificate at the end!
This will also give Canada and the people of British Columbia a real showpiece made for and by the people of this once great province!
It's about time that we the people realize we have the power to make these so-called leaders who are only there to fill their pockets, and have no compassion whatever for the people who elected them.
They Gordo’s Lie-brils who are in bed with the corporations & whose only objective is to their shareholders.
So far we’ve been quite about BC Rail, Terasan, BC Hydro, BC Ferries, and all the other evil that is going on behind closed doors, we are already a has been province.
My grandchildren's future is beginning to look very bleak.
Non-union = leaky condos, snow sheds falling apart and 10 times over budget etc.Kirkoff & son
They were laughing all the way to the bank.

G West:
You won't find me in disagreement with what you said, other than the fact that if it was "thee" election issue provincially, it was poorly represented. And Harper & Co.'s motives should have been "thee" election issue as well. The Libs federally, and the NDP provincially lost the PR game. You don't stop the mantra of common sense with silly distractions like Beer and Popcorn, or Campbell's so called successful growing numbers in platforms without factoring growing populations.

Fact is, it was the NDP's (and the Libs federally) to win or lose and they didn't handle it properly. Stick to the issues. Explain why. Back it up with numbers and ideology that people can understand. Both losing parties became continually sidetracked. Here in this province, the NDP losing was considered a victory, if it wasn't by much. When you compete, you don't go for the bronze. And you don't deserve gold unless you have all the answers needed to govern. Do you see what I'm saying?

Remember the media and provincial debates? Carol mentioned commodities without followup. She had Campbell stonewalled and didn't follow through. She could have gone on about why Campbells government is so ideologically flawed explaining currencies and commodity values and royalties and taxation influences that create deficits or surplus's without major cuts but didn't, explaining why government cutbacks to support the dependents of this province hurt the economoy in the long run, but she didn't and it sent a clear message to me that she either didn't really know "why" his ideology is this flawed beyond labor or didn't know how to explain it and when voters wonder if a political party knows the solutions, never mind the causes to a few no brainer problems, then it get hard to vote for them. I could be wrong, but thats what I saw.

Just noting that I was also referring to the next provincial election in this province several years from now, not the federal one coming much sooner, in my last post.

Disagree with you in some ways about some addressing apprentice issues or a look into Guilds or third party labor standards too late. The time to prepare for Campbells past, present and future failings along with any future governments that follow in their ideologically flawed footsteps is right now on all fronts, with government opposition or otherwise, not mere months before an election.

A simple change in government from the Libs to the NDP (or outside chance of a minority with the Greens holding the balance) won't cause any mystical change, either. These answers have to be there and campaigned with at all opposing levels starting anytime, its just that simple. And if the answers were already there, then its like I say, a PR game. Opposition has to get the facts out. Websites, media, radio and TV, any way they can to anyone who will listen and take it to the public. If the NDP had the facts, they failed in presenting them for whatever reasons.

Signifigant wage rollbacks, corporate tax cuts, major cuts across the board with provincial government workers, talk of healthcare privatization, union busting legislation, take your pick, its a growing list. And all during flush commodities and a rising dollar! Lumber is still an issue... But cutbacks in apprenticship programs and trade education funding should top the list.

Just look at it from a timeline perspective. We are now facing a shortage of skilled labor with only 4 years of one programs cutbacks. This has obviously impacted trade union labor, due to Campbells union busting ways. It has been from the get go to severly weaken, potentially even destroy them with Campbell's government and with Harper at the PMO, they've become loud about it and I feel that its a mistake for them to do so, unless their voices remain unchallenged. If it goes unchallenged, they win. The public brain becomes washed. If they are challenged with sound ideology, the government loses popularity in a hurry. Again, it comes back to PR.

Brain
Not that I don't agree with what you're saying. My point is that it's just talk...fighting yesterday's battles: The issue has moved on and the powers that be already have their ducks in order. That's why Hochstien doesn't bother to mount any kind of an argument - he's just bloviating to soften up the proles so they won't scream too loud when the migrant workers start to arrive. He has Campbell's ear and Campbell has his conduit to Ottawa thru little Davie Emerson who'll ensure the necessary changes get fast-tracked through the federal house if enabling legislation is needed. And the good burghers will be told it's the only way to prevent huge cost overruns and increased taxes.

What'll happen, despite all the noise anyone makes in the event, is that Hochstien and his buddies in the construction industry will laugh all the way to the bank; the Olympics will get built and we'll all have a helluva party in 2010.

Remind you of another scenario? Think back 10 or 12 years - there isn't much that's new under the sun.
That's why all the talk is pointless, the fix is in. There will be a hangover afterwards and of course we can keep talking, but it's just talk.

Tommymore:
While I appreciate your angst, we have a four year pause to look into anything and everything that we can do to either influence or replace the "majority" party now in control. That is, assuming we even know what the phone number is to our local MLA's and completely dismisses diplomacy and negotiations. Once we've gone that route (as I'm sure a "few" of us have), if we don't encounter the herd mentality, we at least have the extra bit of truth to put in there in ones favor, "we tried to tell 'em, but they wouldn't listen."

As for guilds, although the name "Guilds" is synonymous with the medial days of organized labour, Guilds represent a set of labour standards that both the governments in many nations in Europe and labour groups adhere to in our present day. This labour standard is set by third party "Guilds" in Europe to prevent precisely what has happened in BC.

In Canada, guild's have been largely ignored and the name has little value other than historically, due to unions and governments setting the standards of labour in this country. Since political parties and unions have become affiliated as in NDP, ideologies have become diometrically opposed or polarized and as a result, we have a government that is against apprenticship programs solely because they are connected to unions and to a lesser degree, the NDP and really, I can't remember when any government was opposed to apprenticship programs like this in Canada's history.

Some Europian nations have already gone through what we are going through now, a drain in skilled labour from politics, and so, their models need to be looked at much more closely to possibly mirror the same models we might adopt here, to prevent the Campbells of the future from sabotoging apprenticship programs and education in trades. The name GUILD is an apt choice in names for this purpose with anyone who knows their past and present history.

G West:
I see it differently again! lol. Firstly, if immigration does arrive, (and thats a big if)it will have its problems. Cost overruns and incompetence come to mind. As mentioned, they aren't building Russian strip malls. This issue isn't going to go away, because dingnut Hochstein has made a negligently gross error on his scheme to save money from cheap labor. This cheap labor won't deliver. You get what you pay for. Mind you I'm speculating at this point, it still remains to be seen.

And, yesterdays battles aren't as dated as you think. We are experiencing a skilled trade drain in this country and it silly as in slow to think its ok at any time, past present and future.

I should have said 'temporary workers' - migrant gives the impression they might have some rights!

As for 'strip mall' precedents in Russia or elsewhere, there's an interesting piece of architecture in Victoria that was built using a lot of temporary non-union labour - you might want to do a little research on that one and the black eye it is proving to be for the council in the Provincial Capital.

Brain
My post (back up 4 steps) should have read - "think back 20 or 22 years" fingers got out of synch with my head - sorry.

People have been referring to the Scandinavian countries a little here.

A quote from a Danish employer, entrepreneur, what you will:"I like dealing with organized labor, because the alternative is, that you deal with unorganized labor."

This makes you completely perplex? Then don't try to understand European mindset, or think we can make use of the ideas from overseas. People here like making special little deals on the side, just for them, by hook or by crook, they resent 'getting lumped in with the rest of them', when their case is 'special', and so on and so forth. I look wistfully at my red SOLIDARITY pin once in awhile, and think, if only most people even understood the concept...

Only when people have fallen down through all the layers of illusions of 'not being just anybody' to those 'above' them, and they hurt themselves hitting the concrete floor, only then do they remeber there is a union.

Another Danish quotation, or maybe not:"ye get the tyrants ye deserve".

Brain
I would not cast the Liberal’s problems during the election as a PR problem, it more to do with the train wreck they had as a Prime Minister, he out of control and making major policy on the fly, without telling any of his people. I think most long term Liberals just started hunkering down in the trenches and hoped they would get hit also.

Starting the apprentice program would not help the 2010 Olympics as the students would only be graduating in time to watch the games. Mind you it won’t hurt either, but there will likely be a slowdown right after as the bills start coming in.

Canada used to have 2 things over Asia and other places, good infrastructure and well-trained intelligent workers, now both are aging and breaking down with no replacements planned.

If the games were being held in the interior and the new infrastructure was being built there, I could support it, even if it cost more as it would have more long term benefits.

This shortage of skilled tradespeople sounds very much like the "shortage of IT professionals" constantly parroted a few years ago. Big corporations, government and myopic business people will only be happy when skilled trades are making the minimum wage along side over supplied professionals, finishing each phrase with, "would you like fries with that?"

As a tradesperson of 20yrs, in an occupation "so desperately in need" of skilled workers I can tell you first hand this propaganda is nothing but an attempt to increase supply and thus reduce wages. This is not a union or non-union issue, a provincial problem or an Olympic issue. It is about the elimination of the working middle class in this country. The factory and manufacturing jobs which sustained families in the past are virtually gone, now tradespeople are the next target.

hey chilled !

my nephew in PENTICTON has been trying for an apprenticeship in WELDING the past couple of years ...his employer is looking for a total of 3 welders...where are they ???

your field may be flush with trades people but there are always shortages ...in trades...in professions...SOME TRADES THAT PAY REALLY GOOD ARE USUALLY OVERSTOCKED....JUST LIKE AS PROFESSIONALS...EVERYBODY WANTS TO BE A LAWYER !

NO ONE wants the SHITTY trades...or PROFESSIONS.
so there are SHORTAGES...

and we cannot train people in the wrong areas and then have a GLUT in four years after the OLYMPICS...cause out of province/country trades people that come here are not going away...not until their bank accounts are empty...they will be flush and wanting the leisure VANCOUVER has to offer ...

Hey Understandme

A contractor in Penticton can't attract 3 welders?
Let me see here, from my experience living in Kamloops I believe I may have something to add.

I'll let you pick the reason for the elusive welders;

A) Welders don't want to live in "God's country" with all the outdoor activities, pristine lakes and air, but would rather remain in traffic jams in the big cities?

B) The contractor is an ******* to work for?

C) The contractor CANNOT provide full time and consistent employment and those three welders will be pitted against each other when the big job ends? Forget about looking for another job in town, all the contractors in Penticton belong to the Moose Lodge?

Let me give you a hint; it isn't A)

My experience with the "shortage of trades" is that most contractors parroting this are A holes to work for, it's that simple. Have you ever met Phil Hochstein and his crew? Trust me on that one.

Finally a voice of sanity amid (Ed 'made light' nothwithstanding) much clucking and mutterings. Four more years sez headcheese..four more years ..quack, quack...guilds..cluck...lapping up the millstone of debt and corporate avarice that will be Vancouver's "man delivering a baby" come 2010, as if 2010 will be so bright and the containers for WalMart and TaiwanTire will keep coming and 3 dollar a litre oil hasn't rendered the four lanes of the sea-to-sky long long tennis courts and ionizing radiation from Bush's next petit mal act of Cheney/Rove-esque nastiness of biblical inspiration will further gnaw away at the spirit and fibre of decency left on this sorry planet. 1446 days left the Globular clone announces smiling whitely at the sheeple struck dumb in front of the tube planning their next foray to the mall. Misanthropy? Pity might be more apt. Put away the sunglasses. You won't need them in our dim future.

chilled

did not address the point of apprenticeship for nephew ?

kid says decent employer !

has all the hours he can work...employer willing to even pay some sort of incentive so nephew returns...also friend of family ...

so your evaluation seems to fall a little short...

you also missed out on the GLUT THAT IS SURE TO HAPPEN AFTER THE OLYMPICS ???

Something that nobody mentioned so far is the fact that "specialization creates incompetence".

The higher incomes of specialists are often needed to cover costs for services and products they can not do, or make for themselves.

Therefore, when we talk about trades and apprentice training, we have to add that it should cover a relatively wide field, even in specialized trades, so that when there's not enough work in a certain area, the worker can switch and be easily retrained into another.

As I was in custom manufacturing, myself and my apprentices had to know how to make just about anything within the trade, because very seldom when we had to do the same job again. In furniture we had to know how to make anything from Danish modern to Chinese and old English oak.

This means that small companies and businesses are the most efficient training places, as the workers can not be pigeonholed.

Besides, it is an economic fact never mentioned, although I have heard Mikey Campbell say it on BCTV once, that 90% of the jobs are created by businesses employing under 100.

Large corporations are dead end both for workers and their usefulness to the economy, apart from their shareholders.

Ed Deak.

Tommymore: Interesting piece, however derogatory. Have you ever put out a post that was positive about anything at all... Ever? You know, something other than bitter? If its any indication of what you are like off line, I'd much rather be me than you, buddy and that cluck cluck stuff. You don't want any part of me there, either.

Regardless of BC's failings with our current provincial government, other provinces are not quite as slow, and looking after their own. Getting back to this article one more time,

"There's a pattern here," said Holmes. "Hochstein and the BC Liberals worked to sabotage apprenticeship programs run by government and non-union companies do very little to train apprentices. Now they want to bring in offshore workers on a temporary basis to try to fix the problems they've created."

It is more than likely we have enough Canadians to do the job. Pity Campbell's buddies don't want to employ them here at home, and for what its worth, I'm questioning the need for all that iron and concrete to begin with to feed the consumption machine, same as you.

Great post Dorothy!

And you are correct, people here have not yet learned that they are not "equal" and never will be!
The only way to be treated decently is by organizing!
We do not need to change our unions or party, but to realize that we need to stand together, because we all have a common enemy!
The best description of our enemy is greed! corporate greed!

Of course business wants import labour,they support the present Lib/Cons/recycled Socreds/Fraser Valley Religious Right,anti-poor children Goverment in Victoria.
They took away funding for the apprentice trades.
So reapeth what they sewed.
I pray the Trades sock it to the businesses,cause when they have seved their purpose for the Circus
called the Olmpics,they will be back on the streets with their contracts gutted or cancelled.

Colin:
I agree for the most part what you've said. In Martin's defence, he inherited a "train wreck", but Paul tried to run this country like he was a CEO instead of a minority PM and that's where he failed. I look at the sale of Canada's resources to the states in the resource sector as an indicator of how good or bad Martin did in power. Some of it was beyond his control, led by Alta putting a for sale sign on their oilsands but the overall picture suggests bad news...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060227.wcrosbie0227/BNStory/Business

The higher the Canadian dollar, the harder it is for the U.S. to buy our resources. But they've got the money. Thats what most people just don't understand. We can't out spend them. We can't compete this way. So we need legislation that directly hinders M & A's from down south. We used to have it with FIRA, although the Libs never used it and Mulroney replaced it with for sale signs in his bid to run up massive debt. A strong government calls our resources Canada's. A weak government puts up for sale signs. But this is all off topic.

The topic is labor, and whether or not Canada has the ability to provide skilled trades from other provinces to shore up any shortages. The answer is yes. And what should be emphasized is the fact that this provincial government doesn't care about producing skilled trades people as a future tax base and naturally, anyone with any common sense can see the failed ideology, regardless of the appropriate "neo-con" label attached to it.

Chilled, Dorothy, G West, Ed and others such as yourself have all made excellent points concerning what needs to be done, here. Reorganize. Solidify goals. Prepare for a changing of the guards in the years to come with sound ideology and the PR to sell it to the masses. Boot the bums out on their failed records. Call them on their lies.

Colin:
Just to add to what Ed is saying, as well as what I was saying earlier with M & A's (clucks and all)...

Mergers may create 'economies of scale' but the actual cost is greater: the savings in lower product cost is offset by the loss of income earning in the middle class. As a result we have our current situation, where our products may be cheap (Walmart is the champion of this idea) but the middle class Canadian has a lower real wage than those 30 years ago (when this merger/export fest started). Where did the money go from 3 decades of economic growth? Look at the wealthiest 6% in the entire world. They own 50% (yeah, I said it, 50%) of the worlds wealth, and guess what.... that 6% is in the USA. A nation with a poverty rate hovering around 30% (a figure they down play by tinkering with the definition of 'poverty'). Heck, 10% don't even have a home.

Mergers are not about good business, rather it is the exact opposite. Instead of true capitalism (which actually has a lot of good aspects), mergers are simply buying out the market to gain profit through market control, not market competition. -Joel Elliot

1. if i was a 12 year old ...i wouldn't know lt.calley was the scapegoat for mai lei...

1. It’s My Lai, not mai lei.

2. C4 to . . . cut pilots out of downed jets in enemy territory..

2. Using C4 to “cut pilots out of downed jets” would most likely kill or injure the pilot (if he was still alive and in the cockpit - not likely), however the only reason a pilot would be in a "downed aircraft" would be if he were killed before he could eject. In addition, extraction of downed pilots “in enemy territory” was normally a very covert operation. Usually, the enemy already had a good idea where the aircraft went down, with or without smoke plumes. Setting off C4 would give away what might possibly be an unknown location to the enemy. Stealth and speed made extractions work – not needless explosions to give away your location.

3. . . .welfare cheque..

3. Obviously not an American – spells “cheque” instead of “check.”

4. . . . SPITTLE

4. Not a usual word used by Americans. An American would say either “spit” or “saliva.”

5. IT ALSO ENHANCES THE ELECTRICAL CONTINUITY....SO IT GOES BANG !

5. The C4 (or wet C4) had nothing to do with the detonating device (a simple blasting cap). The blast wire is insulated; the end of the wire is stripped of the insulation, then crimped into the blasting cap, and then inserted into the C4. When the electrical impulse arrives to detonate, no electric charge exits the wire or the blasting cap, as it is in a contained environment.

6. you are right about the C4 ...in a large enough chunk...when it's a tiny piece in a BOOBY TRAP it can be blown off the cap...something documented on training films.

6. Describe what type of booby trap would require such a small piece of C4 that the blasting cap would "blow it off." Let's have a detailed explanation - location of the trap (in a covered hole, attached to a tree, etc.), the triggering device, the killing or maiming device, the intended scenario for setting it off (i.e. "A guy walking down the trail trips off a trip wire, which sets off the . . .").

7. HELL ! when i was trained in its use, the instructors used to throw it in the fire while we were having beers ...just to watch the rookies wet their pants jumping for cover !!! so i am well aware of how it works...and back in the late sixties this was NEW STUFF...

7. I don't know that there was ever a time when I was a student that I sat around a fire having beer with my instructors.

8. my service info is personal for SECURITY reasons

8. Security reasons . . . right . . . Same old story used by thousands of liars, frauds and posers (of which you are just another one). I guess you could tell me, but then you’d have to kill me, right?

9. i saw WINTER SOLDIERS in hawaii...just before going to viet nam...(in 1972-74)

9. Winter Soldier happened in April 1971. In order to have deployed to Vietnam in 1972 and seen Winter Soldier in Hawaii (in APR 71), he would have had to have been assigned permanent party to the Infantry Division based in Hawaii (4ID, I believe) because Hawaii was used as a temporary stopover for various reasons and the time span from Winter soldier to January 1972 is more than one six month TDY tour. What stateside unit were you assigned to just before getting your orders for Vietnam? (AND IT IS NOT CLASSIFIED INFO AT ALL).

Winter Soldier:

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/index.php?topic=Testimony

10. . . . time frame is 1972/74

10. You say you performed combat ops in Vietnam in late 1973 and into 1974. If so, you would have been to be the only US combat soldier in Vietnam in 1974. Must've been REAL lonely for you, I’ll bet – with all of your buddies back stateside and you in the field by yourself. This is perhaps the most damning evidence that you are a liar, fraud and poser. March 1973 ended all direct US military involvement In Vietnam. The POWs were released in April. I graduated High School in May and went to Basic Training at Ft. Knox in June 73.

March 1973 marked the end of direct US military involvement in Vietnam, to include covert ops by Special Forces/Rangers. Direct military ops involving US troops was forbidden by the 1973 Paris Peace Accords.

Check the listing for 1973:

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/timeline.htm

In November 1972, a peace treaty signing was imminent. The HQ, USARV/MACV Supcom prepared a final drawdown plan OPLAN 215-OPERATION THUNDERBOLT on 19 Niv 1972 (written in five days by a very small staff) to get the remaining US Army strength of 15,457 out of Vietnam by 60 days after effective date of a peace treaty. At the time, USARV was undergoing the last of the "bird name" incremental withdrawal plans ordered by the Nixon administration, KEYSTONE PELICAN. During the workup of OPLAN 215, the staffers affectionately knew it as KEYSTONE BAB (Big-Ass Bird).

270400Z Jan 73 was the effective date of the ceasefire (X+0). The OPLAN was redesignated as OPORD 215-OPERATION COUNTDOWN. By freezing the replacement stream in Nov 72, assigned strength as of the effective date was 13,244 (of whom 352 were on CONUS leave/TDY and were not returned. 815 Army personnel were then assigned to the Four Party Military Commission to provide air and land transport and communications to the commission. An additional 28 Army personnel were assigned to the Defense Attaché’s Office (DAO). This left 12,049 personnel to be redeployed to CONUS (minus those who established a log coordination activity at NKP in Thailand and a small USARV rear detachment sent to Hawaii to wind up the official business and write the After-Action Report)

All 12,049 personnel were out of Vietnam by 29 Mar 1973 (X+60). Last ROK airplane and LST left on 23 Mar 73 (X+54).

In-country POW were released to USARV by the NVA/VC in Feb 73.

11. now i could GOOGLE and find the EXACT dates the CHINOOKS(i beleive they were)landed on the embassy rooftop...and that was summer ??? 1975.

I believe May 1975 marked the North Vietnamese takeover of Saigon and the influx of the "Boat People." The only remaining ground troops of any kind were the Marine Embassy guards. The personnel were evacuated from the US embassy via Hueys to US navy ships off shore in the South China Sea. This was nearly two years after the US ended all involvement in ground combat in Vietnam. In fact, the cutoff date for the Vietnam Defense Service Medal for that era was in March 1973:

http://www.gruntsmilitary.com/vsm.shtml

You are possibly (and I do say "possibly") some type of military veteran, but are not American and you never served in Vietnam – therefore, you are a poser (and a bad one at that).

Now, I don't know to what degree people here do not really know that "...they are not equal..." Clearly many do, while others not.

Otherwise, an entirely accurate statement, I would say, of what needs to occur.

Brain,

The Americans don't have the money, unless you consider worthless, imaginary money created out of the air by their banks. Or by our banks. At least we have some real capital to back our dollar up.

America is bankrupt to the tune of around $50. trillion and survives on the daily donation of $2. billion by capitalist Japan and communist China. If the stop, or the Iranian Oil Bourse succeeds in March, the US dollar will go down to .20 cents Canadian, or less.

The reason US corporations have been buying Canadian and other resources is to spend their worthless money while the suckers still accept it and build up some real resource capital. At our cost.

In short, the present misguided and misused, economy of the whole world, based on the US dollar is in big trouble and will collapse. When, nobody knows. In 4-5 weeks from now could easily happen, on the other hand, it may drag out for years.

This would be the time and the duty of Canadian politicians to start building lifeboats, so we could bail out of this neoclassical market economy mess.

Anybody who has US dollars, or stocks, better start getting rid of them, like right now.

Ed Deak.

So, UNDERSTANDME has been banned? Since when? This is only my first day here, so I'm not sure who is who here, etc.

Oh well, maybe if they'll ban a liar as quickly as that, they'll ban an idiot like you just as quickly!

:)

Ed Deak: That's precisely the money I'm talking about. You know, the money they created out of thin air, and the money they stole. I guess it depends on which reality you look at it with. The real one thats fake, or the fake one thats real, lol. :-) Thank God the U.S. couldn't steal our resouces in 10 short years, or they would have done it by now. Bastard theives. Back in the day, I woulda been an orange man, I know it, lol.

Getting out of the U.S... I've been singing that tune now, for two years. Looking at what the heavily weighted commodity driven TSE has done combined with currency and wow! Its close to 20% on currency alone. The CEO's dilute anything worth buying down there. The states? Why bother. You've gotten to the heart of it with the loonies recent surge despite another quarter point hike by the Feds south of us. Interest rates aren't going to help them any more, especially if Iran succeeds. And then its war?

.20 cents Canadian is a little steep. Mabye over 30 to 50 years (but I can see our dollar at par within 2) barring a pandemic. The reason why I say this is two fold. The U.S. through its "economics" or theft or whatever you want to call it, produces more oil than it consumes, albeit, only one fourth of its production at home. The rest, it steals and offers crumbs for politicians abroad to look the other way. Same old same O.

The second reason, perhaps the most important, is how and why value is established. For an example, the index's Nasdaq, if Corps traded at book value or true worth of assets, cash or otherwise after loans, would float around 600. The NYSE, around 2500 - 3000. Everything is inflated roughly times 4 on average, currently.

Its the same with their currency. The U.S. buck is worth what you say it is, maybe less, but its the countries that are on the other end of the U.S. trade deficits that want this bubble. Its why Japan is in so deep supporting it, owning 18% of the U.S. buck. Saudi Arabia, 7%, with the UK, Canada and ever growing China & the rest making up the final 24%. No one wants to stop biting the hand that feeds them. A U.S. currency drop slows their trade. But there's a nasty correction due with currencies. All it takes is Japan selling their percentages, and it tumbles. China could do the same, but their gig is to internalize their economy first and then jack up currency to artificially high rates. They then become the next power through buying power and everything changes.

And Bush is out to lunch with his pro texan oil corp agenda fed by the Saudi's. Its hard to watch the blatant self interests at the expense of the entire nation, well, the world. Bush won't go down in the history books as a hero, but a warmonger who accelerated global warming and steamrolled the U.S. currency collapse.

G West: I was splashing women and soaking booze interprovincal back then, you'll have to help me out with that one.

G West: Early 80's are a little "fuzzy". Governmental policy wasn't on my radar at the time, lil' help! :-)

I'm talking about the run up to expo 86 and the vanderzalm govt. and the labour situation at the time. Check it out! Even had an appropriate multi millionaire leading the whole charge. Not much changes in the scenery - just the actors! You might want to look at the parallels.

Fiat Lux:

In the end, it will come down to what has true value. Life. Our environments. Knowledge, wisdom, good will. We don't have this reality based with a good chunk of the higher ups, they're out for themselves... at everyone elses expense. The thing these fat cats don't understand with their belief in inequality... its a belief and identity not worth remembering, other than to provide a bad example to make a case of what not to be... you know. Forgotten.

G West:
I can relate. Especially to that black eye you mentioned in Victoria as well. :-)

Brain
The thing is this whole campaign to try and bring in foreign temporary workers could easily be facilitated through connections between Campbell and Harper - if that was what it’s really all about.

However, odds on, that's not really the program. This is just the first salvo in a 'political' move to make tactical and strategic gains relative to potential and real cost increases in the construction industry (and especially roads and transit - not just the Olympic facilities). It's kind of a two-edged sword: one, put pressure on labour (by threatening to import cheap foreign labour) to keep their share of the pie from inflating too much (look for some public spirited hero to come along and negotiate a deal to cover this eventuality); and, two, make sure that profits don't get squeezed out by increased costs - this is really just a softening up measure to prepare the great unwashed (the taxpayers) for the shock that they're going to have to pay the bills (and provide the profits) in the end.

All the stuff about training and apprenticeship programs is valid and important, but, in my opinion, it’s not really the central point of this little drama.

Party on!

Calvin, dude, nice to meetcha! Good somebody else has a memory longer than last week.

Remember that old bobcat Simple J. Malarkey? Wonder when he'll turn up agin'.

Note on Pattison's $1. fee for managing Expo 86:

The Zalm government sold Beautiful BC to him for $500,000, when the magazine was making $500.000 yearly profit. There must have been more, but this is all I can recall right now. Which means Pattison must have collected at least 20 x $500.000, or something like $20 million in profits from his management that lasted a year or two.

Has anybody ever heard of a business sold for the price of one year's profits ? Unless we count the sale of BC Rail and the whole province by Campbell and of Canada to "deep integration" by the Libs and Reform, or whatever the Harper gang is called right now ?

Ed Deak.

Sorry about the typo error. Should have checked it. I meant $10. million in profits from Beautiful BC magazine.

Ed Deak.

And apropos of Internet resources as a source of 'truth' remember that volenti non fit injuria

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1141080629279&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907624636

Calvin, sigh…… I am sure you and Understandme share a coincidentally similar IP address.

If you make a claim on a Internet forum then people are allowed to refute it and challenge it’s authenticity.

Now regarding the spin for expo being the similar to the Olympic, now we are getting towards ground that we can agree on.

However the price of steel has more to do with the economy in China than construction here. However I noticed that the price of scrap is starting to drop again so likely the supply has begun to catch up to the demand. However I suspect the price of specialities metals will remain high for some time.

Calvin:

We've had writing analysis experts analyze the syntax and styles of your writings (today) to that of the supposedly "banned" UNDERSTANDME.

You are one in the same person.

Funny how liars and frauds on the internet "die untimely deaths," voluntarily drop off fora (out of embarrassment), or (as here) "get banned so quickly that the site administrators were the last ones to know."

Good try, but not good enough.

Funny - you supposedly hold liars and frauds in higher regards than Americans with nmore intelligence and honesty than you have (which is not hard to be, I might add).

Good day to you. I'm hoping that the rest of this forum will understand that anything you write will not be taken at face value, for you are a liar, a coward and a fraud.

Calvin
I can assure you that rocky and I are to different people. Among other things he like to fish far more than I do. He also served in the conflict (I was 12 at the time) we have been discussing and has shed his share of blood and lost friends there and takes exception to people claiming to have done so when that is not the case.

Whoa..simple j malarkey here..G.West you called?
wuz out choppin` wood ..shovellin` snow..makin` the kindlin`...whussup dude? HAVE THE CAPITAL LETTERS GUYS GONE?

bob the cat

Simple J Malarkey was Walt Kelly's cartoon representation for Senator Joe McCarthy; sure you want to be him?
You're a clever guy, you'll figure it out!

no no don`t want to be him..actually I`d missed that bit of thread regarding Walt Kelley.

Pogo..Churchy..Albert..and Simple J M.. was the Castro character represented by an animal? I`d like to see those Pogos again...know where there are reprints available?

I originaly logged on to see UNDERSTANDME/CALVIN self destruct but got intrested in the initial discussion.

When people talk about labour they seem to forget there are unions and trade unions which are two different entities I have belonged to the two different types CUPE is a union IBEW is a trade union. The IBEW does invest and activaly gets involved in the Apprentiship programs. CUPE has so many different workers they cannot activley encourage specific trade training.
The main reason I see for most of the union bashing and demanding of imported labour is money. Union labour is more expensive but not as much as people think only a sometimes not even a dollar an hour more in the private sector, but if you have problems with production one of the easiest way out is blame your work force or lack off.Share holders and costomers are more likley to belive that than faulty engenering, bad planning and bad management. Living next to a Province with higher demand for skilled labour, camp jobs and no PST doesn't help BC labour shortage any

UNDERSTANDME/CALVIN There is a button on your keyboard called Caps Lock learn to turn it off.
Also unlike you I did serve in a dirty little war. Bosnia with the UN (British Army) which makes me a veteran. I married a Canadian thats why I live here. Are you here for the medicinal herbs you seem to be smoking

bob
I expect they're all out of print - you often see the paper books in 2nd hand bookstores and occasionally at garage sales. Castro was a goat, as I recall and J Edgar Hoover was a bulldog; Spiro Agnew wore a uniform I think and he was a hyena - which seems appropriate. Didn’t Pogo come with the coloured funny papers every weekend as well?

I think Richard Nixon was called Indian Charlie when he was pictured with Malarkey (he was counsel to McCarthy's committee, remember?) and later I think he became a spider of some kind; and Nikita Khrushchev was a pig.

Kelly died far too young.

Wobbly
You’re correct about the distinction.

Many of the service unions, CUPE and the like, also have a relatively low wage structure (but frequently better job protection) and are often employed by public sector agencies, health districts, universities, colleges and the like. I don't think the shortages discussed in the article are that severe. Don't know how long you've been in Canada but the traditional procedure here pretty much follows a model first instituted by W.A.C. Bennett. Hook the province's prosperity to one or another set of major projects. Then use the fact that these programs need some kind of special financing, labour contract provisions, rules and regulations relaxation to get them finished as a lever to manipulate unions and favour capital of one kind or another. I guess you could call it the megaproject version of classical economics.

In my opinion that's what's really going on here and the temporary workers thing is just the wedge to get some kind of special deal or extra funding onto the table.

Great "road analogy", Ed Deak.

And Coyote, I agree, a new way of thinking is not going to happen in one of those "touchy-feely" consciousness-raising groups where the "soup du jour" is often just some kind of pretend epiphany. :-)

More likely it will emerge as always out of the deep feelings of personal pain and loss felt by individuals and their families as the result of the ruthless policies intentionally targeted to bring in privatization...as we see now in health care where becoming sick and the need to be hospitalized now carry more dangerous risks than the illness itself...as we see here in the comments on this article that express a growing fear of an ever increasing loss of autonomy over our own lives. The pain of these losses as people begin to speak up, and the weight of the heavy load now felt by growing numbers, is not quite so easily dislodged by vacuous political spin and questions, to some degree, at least, are being asked.

Though still far too much slumbering by far too many especially as the neo-cons travel at ever faster speeds dismantling our social safety net.

So, sometimes I gotta admit I wonder if time is still on our side, if there is still a race to be run here, between the dawdling and the slumbering... and the ever mounting rapture with the Olympics that is going to distract the focus yet again from crucial issues that already needed solving yesterday.

That's what I see here woven throughout the comments, to win this race seems vital..to defend our human rights and our autonomy, but how to go about it, how to organize around all this... is not so obvious, especially when we have a media largely entrenched in the enemy camp....and completely enamored itself with the divine right of Olympic Whistler to rule the years ahead.

...but who knows the law of unintended consequences may define this obstacle race in ways not quite foreseen right now. Though that's nothing to count on nor should it be...so somewhere, somehow, there's gotta be a plan and there's gotta be some courage shown.

That often quoted ancient Chinese proverb comes to mind:

"S/he who fears not the death of a thousand cuts will dare to unhorse the emperor".

Not an easy proverb to live up to... but it has been done before.

A great post lynn..

A lot of you folks must be writers, and good ones too...I`m not.. so forgive the little dots....
I tend to want to write in a personal way..which is easier of course than the discipline and craft of the fine pieces on this forum.

About organizing around all this:..I spent alot of time on the H.E.U. pickets back when Gordo was busting them. Things were building from the grass roots up..the loggers were coming out of the woods...the railroad guys were preparing to shut down..the teachers were going out.. the longshoremen were itchin` to go..a lot of this was spontaneous..and it was very exciting..we got a message from the Scottish Socialist Party offering solidarity and money if needed..the public would honk their support as they drove by...the East Indian Community showed up with food like you wouldn`t believe..and lots of it..this was our hospital...we were proud of our hospital..a lot of the equipment and accessories were privately funded and donated from fundraising...it was really exciting..unlike the solidarity movement(sold out by Munroe) of Art Kube which was more of a top down organized protest..this was the real deal building....and...the B.C. Fed shut it down..what was the NDPS involvement? I don`t know. They let the HEU executive carry the can......they(TUBS Trade Union Bureaucrats) don`t want anything that they don`t control...like whoa maybe Democracy might break out here.
My wife is a teacher. Along comes the teacher job action and....again the house of Labour shut it down...bailed out the Gordos..who didn`t know what the hell to do. The teachers will be coming up to convention and a vote to remain in the Fed. Its going to be a tough sell.

Maybe thats where it could start...The CLC and B.C. Fed HAVE to reform..to radicalize.

Again lynn a really great post.

G west I agree with you on the special projects they are trying the same thing for the oilsands. The company that tried that has anoyed every labour group in Alberta and has yet to get one union to sign onto their labour agreement and with the current projects comming on line they are going to be sevearly short staffed, because labourers are dime
a dozen but if you are looking for skilled personel who have qualifications recognized in Canada is completly different situation. They wouldn't even recognize the two trade tickets from the UK. I had to sit through a new apprentiship to get my journeymans ticket.
I would look out for the olympic projects to go way over budget as the usual responce when large projects go to the wall is throw money at it. For overtime and labour it does bring in labour but without leadership just leads to mass confusion.

UNDERSTANDME/CALVIN
I have nothing to prove.I am trying to contribute to the initial discusion but you can find all us RABID MORONS at http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=14928&st=40
you wouldn't even last one post there.

Thanks, bob the cat...couldn't agree more with your insightful piece above....especially in regard to valuble momentum lost... and in your words - the fear of "democracy breaking out".

luv the dots...use them all the time myself...

Cheers.

Great article Tom.

So this is why the government in BC is not increasing the number of appreticeship programs: they want to bring in foreign workers and weaken the unions. There is no labour shortage crisis, but they want to create one.

In Iraq, the Americans have brought in foreign workers from Kuwait and India to work at the Basra Oil Refinery. Not because there aren't enough Iraqis to work, it is just that they want to weaken the local community by giving away good jobs.

Same old management crap. Create a crisis and exploit it to weaken work standards.

Colin:

You are in error. I am not a Vietnam vet nor have I ever claimed to be one anywhere, at any time or at any place.

I went to Basic in June 1973 and it was a done deal then. I recently retired from the US Army effective 31 DEC 05.

Rocky
Sorry about that I got you confused with someone else.

Calvin
I do apologize for saying rocky was a Vietnam Vet, I was rushing to post during a break on course and confused him with a another poster I know. I should have checked before making that statement and waited till I had more time to compose my post, lesson learned.

I have 3,700 post? Sheesh! I need to get more of a life.

Brain, I simply love the way you can blather on post after post in complete ignorance of what you write about and think that you are informing or impressing anyone of anything.

I've been away for several days and have just now scanned the contributions to this specific post since then.

You are amazing. Found to be so lacking in even the basic understandings or principles of trade unionism, you first lash out at those who call you on your overly loud claims to wisdom.

Like the stubborn ox that simply refuses to get out of the mud wallow even though its feet are becoming infested, you rant and chortle to no end about the inequities of life in the workforce where the great unwashed and unorganized work force has been abandoned by unions that only look after their own.

Please tell me where you got the impression unions aren't interested in helping workers who aren't yet organized?

Actually, I don't expect you to answer other than in some snidely sort of way that will continue to express your expansive ignorance of a subject field.

Now, I am glad for you that a good number of gentlemen and gentlewomen (I'm certainly not talking about your Janett666), on this post have the patience to try to explain the the roll of unions and to direct you to various sites to further (start is more like it) your understanding of the union phenomena.

Now, I notice you poo-pooed me for not being as polite or offering you ways to learn. Once again you let your emotions get ahead of reality in that statement Brain.

If you would go back and read my posts you will see that in most I stressed the great need for you to get at least a primary understanding of unions before blathering. I believe I even mentioned an author or two you might begin with so as not to continuing embarrassing yourself in print.

But, it is obvious, that like the stuck ox, you simply were not prepared to unstick your feet from your own mire, which in your case is that opening between your chin and your nose. In other words you were suffering from foot in mouth disease, not the best of conditions, but a real danger for an overly wordy poster.

Now, in some vain effort to try to leave the impression you are learning, you have labelled yourself an "apprentice" in the art of understanding labour and or the working class.

Again, I am quite pleased for you there are gentle people on Tyee who will tolerate you and some who, despite your know-it-all attitude, who suggest links that might advance your knowledge.

The reality is Brain, I didn't come onto Tyee with some vague dream of educating some pompous ass with an obsession to overwrite on all issues, but rather, if possible, to toss whatever it takes at people like you so that perhaps a single ray of enlightenment might somehow allow you to see the real Brain looking back at you in a mirror rather than the legend that stands so tall in your eyes.

Let me sum up what I have seen on this posting: some quite good understanding of the problems facing a workforce that must continually whether the uncertainties of the economy, demographics, political interferences and the greed that drives the economic system forced upon them; some extremely bizarre understandings of the workplace and the players within it by people who obviously know next to nothing of what they speak.

Brain, the latter is you.

Being a newbie here on Tyee I can`t really comment on whats gone down with previous exchanges..however I do believe Brain is largely misunderstood a lot of the time..sure he waxes poetic from time to time...(I really liked wayfarers)
bob

bob the cat, I can't disagree that Brain is "largely misunderstood a lot of the time."

I too noted the wayfarers comments, but thought he must have been trying to write about itinerant tradesmen such as printers in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

But who knows, maybe there are still secret little covens of wayfarers lurking behind nom-des plume on website across the www.

Well, on second thought, maybe he was referring to seafarers.

Oh, Allan:
You once again prove a complete lack of manners and respect for any views that counter your own. What can I say? You're bitter. You are a rude, obnoxious, ignorant person in need of anger management and perhaps some phyc evaluations. Former union rep and organizer you say? You give them a bad name.

You have repeatedly gone on the majority of past threads I’ve been on only to attack me. You’re obsessed. You're funny in the head. Needing anger management or something. Janet666 just pointed it out on one of the threads. If anyone has the time to waste in seeing just how sick in the head you really are:

http://thetyee.ca/News/2006/02/17/LibsLeader/

Please elaborate because as tommymoore implies you sound like a recent turnip truck passenger with that line.
The Brain [dead] writes:
And braindead also writes:
When I encounter your rambling and lengthy examples of syntactically and grammatically challenged maunderings I find it to be like wading through mud.
It infuriates me that you use the handle "the brain" when it has become more and more obvious to all here that "lame brain" would be more apt.
It truly is unfortunate that you are about the only person who hasn't clued into the fact that you speak out of a tightly confined little box, where everything must be neat, tidy and follow a course of action that is predetermined according to your view of the world.
You have shown more ignorance in this past post than anyone since You spew misinformation with reckless disregard.
the more you type the more apparent your ignorance becomes.
While some on this site posting comments strive to put forward valid points, you seem to cram your own foot further and further into your mouth
Your never-ending diatribes are fraught with meandering illogic and irrational irrelevancies.
Go back to school You obviously were a truent( at least in mind), if you missed such basics

Again, you spew out your ignorance without an iota of reason, just simple Vancouver Board of Trade rhetoric.y
ou are interested only in seeing your words in print, regardless of how inaccurate or excessive they may be.
I cannot believe that someone in this day and age, who claims to be educated and who lives in Canada could write the drivel you put out above.your rhetoric now has a post-intestinal odour to it.
you made a dumb statement, which anyone can see by going back into your overly voluminous blather, which I now see as aimed at exhausting anyone who challenges your ill-thought points.
you sound like and ad man defending the slush fund.
Why don't you just admit you are a life-long ***?
Even the Boy Scouts are smart enough to BE PREPARED.
Grow up or at least try to write something truthful or accurate once in a while, because the bs fools few of us.
You have less credibility each day you avoid, deny and ignore Give us another 4,100 words without an accurate statement.
In fact, your daily output of blather has now reached encyclopedic levels on this topic and you have not proven one of the allegations you have tossed out.
Christ, even a sleezebag lawyer would choke trying to defend your imagination.

Talk about ad hominem.

Its not hard to see it, Allan.

Allan:

Apologies for being a little harsh, you're actually quite intelligent, but you've got this revenge thing. Anyways, I'm sure we can both do better on these threads than to make it personal for absolutely no one else benefit including, perhaps especially so, our own.

Well Brain, it's nice that you can so conveniently cut and paste Janet666's rant.

But why did you edit it first?

Hey, fellow, I'm not shy about the comments I make and I certainly have had good reason to make each one.

It has been to respond to a petty little fellow who calls himself the Brain, but who has shown repeatedly that if a brain is involved it was taking a smoke break or something.

Brain, I am not angry, I am not hostile, and I really don't think I'm the one with a few loose circuits either.

No, this time I was simply responding to your nasty little comment the other day in which you noted all those gentle people were bending over backwards to explain a few basics on the labour movement or history to you.

You'll remember the one in which you suggested I was just some mean-spirited guy out to harass you.

Oh and now I see you have taken up after Janet666 claiming I am stalking you across the Tyee board.

Brain, I don't have to stalk a fellow like you. I know you are going to stop and lift your leg at every story published on Tyee. So it isn't real hard to comment on a post you've already messed on.

Hey, I'm just a little bit like the guy who follows the circus parade through town.

I'm scraping up the little things some of the animals with less than stallar bladder control
proudly drop all the time thinking they have really impressed the crowd.

One of your big problems is a clear lack of understanding of people Brain. I don't have anger managememnt problems. In fact, I think I inject some good amount of humour in my posts, but then when you are the butt of the humour I appreciate why you might miss the intent.

Hey, I promise to stop making fun of you the day you stop writing long, boring and increasingly inaccurate comments that appear designed to leave the impression you know anything of which you speak.

Brain, just slip quietly in to the Tyee archives nad have a look at the wonders that have clunked down onto the board under the Brain byline.

Oh, and by the way Brain, quit quoting Janet666. Surely you can find someone with an iota of credibility.

At least Ron Erwin could keep his ramblings down to a paragraph or two, which suggests to me a lack of confidence in your inability to complete a thought.

Brain, I accept your apologies and will add my own for my latest contribution, (see above).

Well I worked for a construction company that had a terrible record on safety (WCB gave it 15 orders) and the profit on the project was double the cost of building. This same company used mostly labour unlimited, TLC and pro-active temp workers. The quality was beyond the pale. Laminated two by fours were used to hold joists and the plywood used was the the cheapest. They had a skilled labour that called himself carpenter, training the apprentices. The whole buziness is a joke... It took the city inspector almost a nerve breakdown to get this PM and superintendent to do what was needed to secure some compliance...
We are creating a lot of griff in 10 years time, when all the built shit of the last 5-10 years will fall apart. I have seen it. I would not want as a present, any one of the condos or houses presently built.
There will be massive despair... with or without foreign worker building anything.

one need only look at the leaky condos to see what happens with temporary workers.

every jobsite i passed during that time was chok a blok with out of province/alberta plates and construction/fly by night companies.

read the newspaper archives to remember the legacy the architects left behind because the morons never built in this province and did not account for the weather.

all the little things add up.training and knowledge have to be provided so our monies don't go to waste.

I think its Taoism and goes something like this.

The one who speaks does not know,

The one who knows does not speak.

Most of the Veterans I have known over the years, the ones that lived through battles like Ortona the Liri and the Gothic Line spoke little of the war, they just tried to forget and get on with life until they wake up in the middle of the night screaming, reliving another old battle!

November was/is a very difficult month for these people, I have been to a re-union and listened to their stories and it really is sad we have not done more to tell their tales.

Off topic I know but these frauds really piss me off!

Ursus

Very true, I recently had a long talk with my wife's Uncle as he showed me pictures and awards from his 15 years fighting in Malaysia. It took me awhile to realize just what he had gone through, you would never know it by the way he talks or his attitude and joy towards life.

Wayfarers ! those were the sunglasses that Don Henley was selling in the Boys Of Summer were they not ?
i hope i am not the only one sick of the military sickos on this site.please contact the administrator if you are as pissed as i am .and i suggest you go to the site that was provided to find out what these people think about us , it's not nice.

Military sicko's? So have you always been nice to people that you disagree with? People vent here, other vent elsewhere, welcome to the Internet.

the site that your friends recommended we visit?
well i visited it , and i can tell you ,that anyone calling themselves a Canadian , and flies another flag over their posts ,is either a liar or a traitor.
you sir ,have nothing but disgust for the people on this site.
So don't tell me about disagreements when you are not even ready to listen.
then again , you are a True Neocon.

anyone Disagees , look at his Sicko military Rantings .

Welcome to the internet Colin.

the site that your friends recommended we visit?
well i visited it , and i can tell you ,that anyone calling themselves a Canadian , and flies another flag over their posts ,is either a liar or a traitor.
you sir ,have nothing but disgust for the people on this site.
So don't tell me about disagreements when you are not even ready to listen.
then again , you are a True Neocon.

anyone Disagees , look at his Sicko military Rantings .

Thomas - many there fly the Danish flag as an avatar in a sarcastic symbol of solidarity with the Danish with regards to the recent violence against the Danish government and people because of Islamic outrage over cartoons published by a private Danish entity.

It's political humor not unlike you (or anybody else) probably finds funny if seen and heard on Saturday Night Live, Conan O'Brian, etc. and it's not treasonous at all. However, one can see that the differences between your political bent and Colin's have obviously led to the temporary loss of your sense of humor.

When the glue-sniffer runs out of glue to sniff, he turns to using spray paint or anything else he might find (no matter how ridiculous the item might be) that might satisfy his need. In a similar way, those that get their jollies insulting those on the opposite side of the political fence sometimes ridiculously use anything that is handy or easily available to supposedly pummel their intended target – even if it makes them look foolish doing so, for the self-satisfying feeling that follows such insult far outweighs, and therefore justifies (in the mind of the insulter) the use of said ridiculous item being used as a bludgeon.

So, now we have your supposed outrage over this Danish flag thing and Colin . . .

Cheers!

Thomas
Thank you for visiting the other site, I have nothing to hide. As a “token Muslim” I found the attack on the Danes extremely disturbing and I recently changed my avatar to their flag as a show of support, along with buying some of their products. The Islamic fundamentalist are determined to control what people say and do anywhere in the world, I have seen the effect they have had in my wife’s country and it is not a good thing at all. I have also listened to their speeches in mosques located in Vancouver and I personally believe that Canadian just do not understand the threat that these people (not all Muslims are extremist) represent. The other site I also post on has a large number of posters from all over the world and many differing viewpoints, they also go beyond your typical internet site and when you travel to a city or country where a regular poster lives they will go out of their way to help you and to make your visit enjoyable. Most are a bit rough around the edges but have good hearts.

Have I been showing disgust? I told people that wanted to visit this site, that the Tyee had a lot of “lefties” I think that is a fair comment as the Tyee and the people who generally post here are left wing and not shy to say so. The only people I showed disgust about was Understandme/Calvin.

As to other peoples comments. You think the descriptive language here to describe people with other views is not inflammatory and demeaning? It is time to be honest with yourself, if you insist on namecalling others, don’t pretend to be shocked and offended when they return the favour. Just look at your last post you called me a “Neocon” and a traitor. You really know nothing about me, yet waste no time in labelling me and placing me into a convenient box rather than treating me like a human being. The reason a number of them came here was to deal with someone pretending to be a war veteran, which is highly demeaning to those that did fight.

Looking at your posts In general I think you can be a reasonable person, I ask to sit back and reflect on my comments here, I don’t expect you to agree with everything I say, but I think you are capable of far more reasoned posts than you have been doing.

Take a breath.

The point of communication in general is to hear the voices of those who think other thoughts than your own.

Other people are allowed to have other thoughts. This is a good thing.

It's nice that different people come here and offer their thoughts, it means you get a chance to rebut and persuade them.

It doesn't mean that you get to treat them with disrespect. Whatever we think of each other's arguments, we might remember that why we like coming here has a lot to do with the fact that they come here too.

Sorry. I think I sometimes need to remind myself not to be mean to people just because they seem mean to me.

again you military sychophants take over this site with your right wing fantasies.

solidarity with the danish ? sounds to me like you just don't want any religious rights for muslims.

like typical neocons/rightwingers you people beleive your ideas should be heard and brought to fruition because military might means right.only those in the military know whats good for us .sounds like you two have been indoctrinated with the typical gung ho mentality john wayne used to portray before he went to that big battlefied in the sky.then again don't you still have chuck heston selling guns to kids as the american way of life ?

you two sound like Bushites.

anyone Disagees , look at his Sicko military Rantings .

What about ex PM Paul Martin reflaging the Canadian Steamships line does that make him a neocom traitor?
Canada is built up of diverse people who still have roots in different countries. I live in Edmonton and have seen Ukrainian, Polish ,Danish and flags from various countries but they still call themselfs Canadian.
The military makes countries politicians just take the credit. Even Canada was made and recognised by it's military look up Vimy ridge, Normandy, Korea and other peace actions.

Back to the topic at hand. In the comercial construction industry most of your work is done by apprentises because a first year cost 50% less than a journeyman so it makes sense if you can get away with it to have the majority of work done by apprentises with a journeyman overseeing the opperation. Thats where the provincial goverment has to enforce the building codes and safty codes without them being enforced the building's become unsafe after several years when the warrenty expires and we, the over taxed living in Canada are left with the bill. With the olympics it could be a large bill for the roads and buildings. Although I don't live in BC I still pay through transfer payments to BC.

Thomas,

Who are you to judge Colin and his "military sychophant" friends.

Disprove their ideals with reason and information rather than rhetoric.

When you write:

What religious rights do Muslims not have?

more Bushites to drown out the original thread subject.they come from Tanknet.com to roll over any dissention to their, might makes right views.

i still wonder how the politicians and labour are going to rectify the issues mentioned in the article ?

yet these military types keep yapping and all intelligent dialog has gone the way of the dodo.

so you figure i should give in to their obnoxious ranting about a subject they should be discussing on their forum , not this forum.

free speach is great , when it makes sense .

Thomas
You clearly did not read my post, I had to convert to Islam in order to marry my wife, I get to see the good and the bad about Islam from the inside, I don’t consider myself an expert, but I have deep concerns about Islam as it is been promoted.

The Danish cartoon thing was blown out of proportion and Muslims have for centuries being making pictures and statues of Muhammad. In fact the Danish Immans had to contrive cartoons and statements and then take them to the ME to stir up trouble in order to further their own agenda’s. Arab media was talking about how wild rumours were flying around by text message that Danes where burning thousands of copies of the Koran in the streets and all sort of other nonsense.

Most Muslims are moderate, but they have a long habit of remaining silent and not dealing with the radicals in the midst. The radicals and fundamentalist are determined to bring Islam to the rest of the world whether you like it or not, they go to great lengths to paralysis and intimidate moderate Muslims around the world. So by saying that “Muslims should have rights” do mean that sharia law should be implemented here, despite the fact that there is no single codified set of rules and that it fundamentally clashes with the values of our society?

You will also notice that I have not taken this issue elsewhere and am merely responding to your posts

your responses should have been stopped with understandme being banned ,your hunting posuers is so asinine , as to be childish.

i cannot find any thread on this site that you haven't commented on and reading the comments on tanknet.com i find the same necessity in your behaviour to be heard and heard and heard,etc.etc.

get a life , perhaps your followers like the drivel you espouse.

but give the rest of us a break.

i am out of here this guy is just to perfect in his own mind.you sychophants can keep this srindoctor all to yourselves.

free speach is great , when it makes sense .

Based on that logic, you should have yours rescinded. ;)

Cheers!

Thomas, Rocky, Wobbly, Colin et al

Perhaps I can clarify. A quick visit down the line to the site Thomas is exercised about revealed the following, from Colin:

and, a bit later, this:
from Wobbly (who also posts here from time to time):

and, further on:
again from Colin:

and, a little later:

http://thetyee.ca/

Most of our fight has been on the 20,000 temp workers thread.

Small world, one the regular posters lives near & knows my cousin up North, a bit of grump but lived under Nazi & Soviet rule, so he is forgiven.

I post there in a vain attempt to enlighten the world :P B)

plus it has a lot of local issues.

A few posts later, from a worthy called Pongo 7409:

I won't include what Colin said about Nightbloom but anyone who wants can hie themselves over to
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=14928&st=80
if they're curious.

Colin later added:

I was kind of hoping that what’s his name would have lasted a little longer here.

Anyway, enough of that. The above site is a fun place to spend a few minutes if you enjoy reading about folks discussing the caliber and firing mechanisms of bazookas. However, I think I can understand why Thomas was a little ticked with Colin and his friends, but then, that's just me.

rocky i take it you are just like colin and have nothing better to do than hang around the computer all day forcing your inanities on those you figure need your expert counciling.

watch out folks , here comes THE UGLY AMERICAN .

don't ask what it means rambo just read the book.

Thomas49 appears after understandme and calvin disappear and just happens to disagree with Colin et al. Thomas has nothing to say about the thread, but he sure has an itch in his jockstrap for Colin/Rocky/Wobblie.

Coincidence? Sure it is.

Michael Clift
C'mon man. You can do better than that! I suppose Thomas49 made Colin write the things he did as posted above. Give me a break, we can all read. Colin's as big a phoney as he said Understandme was and you know it.

@ Understandme: if you're not European, or have never been here and only get your info about Europe from third class TV shows and completely biased websites, please... shut up about it. One guy from the UK, who obviously used similar sources, told me just a few days ago, that there is a massive right-wing movement in Austria. I have yet to see this "movement".

The Danish had no problems with the guest workers and still don't have any, even after the cartoons. Problems are only caused by the fanatics of a certain religion, and luckily there are plenty of people who have a working brain and, thus, don't fall for low level religious propaganda.

Germany and France don't really have a problem either. Fact is, there are thousands of Germans who are guestworkers themselves, in Austria, since the Austrian economy is currently stronger than the German. Also, there aren't that many neonazis in Germany. There has been a problem, yes, but that has been dealt with by now.

As for the cartoons:

First of, the way I experience it in Europe is, that all religions have their rights. Even the most weird ones can move around freely without any problems. The rights of the Muslims were clearly not violated by these cartoons. Cartoons can be used to provoke (take any cartoon that shows politicians), that's one of the purposes. In a country with free press and freedom of speach this is common. Of course, a country like Iran doesn't understand this.

There has been the argument that making images of Mohammed, etc, is not allowed in Islam. First of, Denmark is not an Islamic country, so why would they care? And secondly, there are Islamic images of Mohammed, plenty of them. Thus, this argument, usually used by the most fanatic Muslims, is nothing but BS.

Also, if Islam is such a peaceful religion, as everyone seems to claim these days, why are European embassies burning (not just Danish)? Why have people been killed already over this issue?

Frankly, I'm glad that the ammount of Muslims in my homecountry is somewhere below 1% of the total number of inhabitants.

Now... I find it most interesting that this thomas49 posts a lot like Understandme...

Btw, what's "The Ugly American"? Sounds like a book, or an even worse movie.

i have posted on the shoddy work done by third rate workers/companies/architecs that were not trained properly and had limited knowledge of construction here on the WET Coast.we have to make sure that kind of nonsense does not happen again.

so what are labour and govt. going to do ?
that's my concern micheal clift.

apparently all you worry about is who's behind which id.

i don't see any positive input about the thread subject with you name on it.so point all you want there are a lot of other persons posting with suspect id's and i don't know who you are.

could you be one of those military trolls ?
or you just got an itchy jockstrap ?
or just someone that feels everybody owes you an explanation ?

AKM
Auf wiedersehen

AKM

i am an austrian immigrant and have been here for 50 years , still have family in vienna and talk frequently.also have family in england ,the united states,and australia

so i take it by your tone that anyone you designate as someone you hate ,you can flame.

i can see why you don't see any problems.

you are the problem.

Thomas49
Roll back up this thread about 7 steps or so. The truth will come to light.

Thomas I thought you said you were out of here and I also left to let this die a natural death.

You don’t like me, that’s fine, I tried to be civil, but you have a lot of anger that you like to vent at me. Frankly if Understandeme/Calvin had retracted his outlandish statements I would have been happy and I did not attack his posts on other subjects, despite him being extremely rude to people who disagreed with him, I also had nothing to do with his banning and only assumed it was so as I have no contact with the site administrators. Most site moderators take a dim view of banned individuals showing again under another name.

Alcibiades

So you don’t like what I said? Is this not a left-wing site and proud of it? I have been called far worse on this site than anything I have said, yes I vented a bit is this a crime?

Gwest
How so am I a phony? I have never lied about my service or career. I did become a Muslim to marry my wife, it was a choice I would rather not have made. Sometimes I get very frustrated on this site and some of the personal attacks that people feel is their right. I try not to respond in kind. Is it phony to be human and let off some steam around people that I consider friends and have helped not only over the net, but in real life.

Thomas,

No I'm not very interested in the military.

Actually I don't normally wear a cup.

Actually I think that people who are intellectually dishonest should be held accountable and you are dishonest(at best).

G West:
I don't know if phoney is the word I would use to describe Colin. He's never pretended to be left of center.

His words on the "other" site are probably an impression motivated function where he wants to make sure that he is making a good impression on his peer group(at tanknet). Had he known that one of the other members of tanknet would post back their url he might have chosen his words differently.

Colin, Michael Clift, Wobbly and anyone else who's read this stuff:

Guys, read those comments again.
If you have any intellectual honesty, you know what's gone on here. Colin decided it was his place to 'deal' with 'someone' on this site who made some comments he didn't agree with. He did this by going to another site he ‘inhabits’ and enticing 'individuals' to help him deal with the supposed problem and he did it with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink mentality about his superior contempt for lefties. Give me a break - the internet is a public place and people ought to be responsible for the pith and substance of what they post. Colin screwed up, if he's a man he'll admit it and apologize and anyone who makes excuses for him is just as bad as he is. Either that or they can go to any one of innumerable conservative websites I'm sure you're aware of where they can slag people they don't agree with in the most childish and ad hominem terms and if anybody steps in to call them on it they'll immediately be banned.

In addition, to make it worse, when Thomas49 stumbled into this and passed on his thoughts you started to attack him and accuse him of being a part of this bloody mess. You know exactly what you did – the question is, are you man enough to admit it.

You guys took extreme advantage of the forbearance of the people who come to this site to have a 'mostly-civil' discussion of issues that are important to them. Sometimes they're off topic, sometimes they're lame in the extreme and often they could use an efficient editor - but that's life. What Colin did was execrable and I think he's probably ashamed of it so I'll leave it with him and hope he has the jam to admit it. I think he actually has some interesting thoughts to contribute - but not in the way he behaved in this case.

Gwest

I did in fact apologize on this site for a factual screwup. I did not “entice” the guys to come here, one of them asked for a link. I was asking for the ex-Vietnam vets to give me advice in exposing the guy.

Had Understandme/Calvin said “I am a Vet or I was a Vietnam veteran” I would have taken that at face value. But the type of statements he made were more in the vein of a conman and this has become a major problem were people make these claims for gain.

As for my “Superior contempt for Lefties” have you every sat back and taken a look at the language on this site? Much of it is derogatory and contemptuous of anyone that dares to disagree. A few of them have been downright nasty. It is standard here to accuse anyone who disagrees as a “neocon or as a sicko” is that better than saying “leftie”?
My comment: ‘I post there in a vain attempt to enlighten the world :P B)”

Is meant to be humorous and that might be clearer if you could see the smileys

As I said before I am a human being and am not perfect. By the way I noticed that you did not include Thomas in your criticism for his constant use of the childish term “sicko’s” to describe myself and others. Gwest you tried to post a reasoned argument, but I do believe that you are to close to the issue to see it in a completely neutral light.

Colin:
'The factual screw up!' I could care less whether you falsely claimed your friend ‘Rocky’ as a Vietnam veteran. That was the least of it.

Look again at what you said, what you did, the way you said it and what it means. You're behaving like a child caught looking at porn on the internet. I thought you'd be man enough to admit your behavior sucked. You think it'd be okay if no one saw you? People have been sued for less: Go back and read all the comments you made. And remember the way you and your so-called friends collected the 'evidence' to use in lame attack: I just went back to check to refresh my memory. Give your head a shake!

As for Thomas, are you going to pretend that there wasn't an ugly attempt to slag him just because he called you on your behavior? You don't like his language. Look again at the language you used. You might even want to let Nightbloom know what you said about him, I’m sure he’d appreciate your damning him with faint praise. Leave Thomas out of it - you're the one who started this nonsense.

Don't own up to what you've done if you don't want to, I have no power over you, but don't pretend that others don't know what's been going on here!

Cheers.

oy vey ,what a site !

this is as lively and as open as i have ever encountered.i haven't been banned from any sites yet because i do not post on sites i recognise as lunatic fringe.like tank net !

these people stand around the old campfires talking about US and THEM .the discrimination is obvious and the thought processes are like prepubescents looking for some neighbours pet to torture and eventualy dispatch.their mentallity is frightening thing to try and understand .then again, i am not a trained killer nor have i ever killed anyone,nor do i wish to.
people can pick sides,i was invited in an open invitation to every one here ,to visit tanknet and i found it repugnant.adam geibel and a few others project such a foul odour with their offerings as to make a person wonder no longer where the military gets personnel for prisons like abu graib ,guantanamo and other torture hotspots.
listen to the ,we are right you are wrong going on here ,because of some percieved wrong doing.
look who picks which side.lefties versus righties.small wonder these people are in the military .
their discrimination is repugnant as is the way they deal with any problem they encounter.
beat it til it bleeds, then beat it some more.

just go and look at their comments on muslims.
there are some sickos on that site that need help with their mental health issues,but then you wouldn't have any good soldiers for your wars to support the industrial military complex and keep scum like bush and his buddies in riches for as long as the battle goes on.

these people are TRUE WAR ADVOCATES , as long as they are winning and it looks like they are in another viet nam.

only this time there is oil .

thomas49
sounds like a part of town its maybe best to stay away from.

Gwest
I am a little confused, from what I remember Nightbloom has happily admitted to being gay and I also believe that he mentioned that he had been an officer. I commented that he is well versed in history. Now if I got wrong I would apologize to him, because I have gained a lot of respect from the quality of his posts.

I have no doubt that you might find some of the posts over there distasteful and certainly not politically correct, but I doubt anyone has any grounds to sue me. If fact much of the behavior and name calling would not be tolerated in a workplace either.

Thomas if you spent time there you will also notice people defending Muslims there. Some of the posters just got back from Iraq and Afghanistan and might have different views on the subject than you. Have you actually spent any time around fundamentalist Muslims, it’s quite an eye opener.

I am referring to the Tyee with this comment

Colin
1. You took it upon yourself to interpret anonymous written remarks as being appropriate motivation to make deleterious comments on another website and encourage others to bring their prejudices to this website in order to take part in a self-important exercise of absolutely no intellectual worth and of no relevance whatsoever to the subjects being 'discussed' here. The last time I encountered behavior like that I was in public school.

2. You made critical and generally ad hominem remarks about the 'type' of people who 'inhabit' this website and the only effort you've ever made to apologize was to your 'friend' whom you mistakenly said had been in Vietnam.

3. You did all this privately under the pretence that no one would find out and then you went back to your friends on the other website so they could figuratively clap you on the back and tell you what a great fellow you are.

4. By all means, interpret what goes on with your military friends as worthwhile and enjoy your time there, I just don't agree and nothing you can say will convince me that you aren't being disingenuous now.

5. Forums like this ought to be devoted to the discussion of ideas, not personal vendettas.

6. You may notice if you've taken the time to read what I've been posting over the past several weeks, that I don't call people names.

7. As for your comments about Nightbloom, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Interestingly though, I have a feeling that your comments about him over there, as I said, had a mixed meaning.

8. You might be interested in the fact that comments on forums like this can be considered actionable for libel. If any of the principals in this discussion had been using their own identifiable name, it is quite possible that a legal case could result. You might want to check this out yourself.

9. That's why these discussions should stay with ideas and avoid the personal.

10. As for what you and your friends tried to do to Thomas49, that was unforgiveable.

coming to canada from austria back in the early fifties ,i spoke german/austrian.for this i was called a f#%king Nazi and regularily beat up.

colin and crew are not the first to show how discrimination works,the us and them thing.

you will never get instigators like him to admit anything , they sit back in their groups/gangs and gloat over their percieved victory.nothing they ever do is wrong ,it is always justified.

he/she deseved it ,because they just happened down the wrong street.

like bob the cat said ,it's a part of town you should stay away from .

from 'Richard Lindquist'

"I am a camera with its shutter open, quite passive, recording, not thinking. Recording the man shaving at the window opposite and the woman in the kimono washing her hair. Some day, all this will have to be developed, carefully printed, fixed." (Christopher Isherwood: Goodbye to Berlin, 1939)

thomas49,
i remember a German immigant kid arriving at our elementary school in the early `50`s. He was actually wearing lederhosen (sp?)
The (North) American bully schoolyard of course moved in on him but he was good with his fists this kid ..really good and he broke a couple of noses..no problems after that...
I asked him where he learned to speak English so well and he said it was from reading Tarzan comics back in Germany.

Thomas (et al):

I cannot believe the hypocrisy in the supposed "tolerant ones" that I read.

Colin sees lies and fraud. He knows nonone of you motherf**kers know how to distinguish a fraud from a fake Vietnam vet. He takes it to a place where th eknowledge is there. The lie is exposed - AND you all know it was a lie. And, you still choose to "kill the messenger" and be f**kinf BIGOTS in the process . . . anti-American bigots, anti-military bigots . . . yoU f**king name it.

You should all be ashamed - but I know it's beneath you.

http://stangoff.com/

Rocky..this thing with the poster(I`m still not sure whats gone down here..it has more twists than a La Carre novel) claiming to be a Vet..
this is obviously not taken lightly by those who have experienced combat.
Personally I`ve had friends who were Vietnam
Vets..the Vietnam and Iraqi Vets are very large in the Peace movement down south. I don`t know any of the people on this site personally but I`d venture there are more than a few Americans who frequent it. Have you heard of Stan Goff?
I`ve given you a link to his blog Feral Scholar
Hes a Vietnam special forces vet..his son is presently in Iraq I think.

Rocky
If Colin had taken the time to read some of the posts between Understandme and others he'd have realized that:
a) He wasn't the first person who'd called that individual, nor was he bringing any 'enlightenment' to this post from your board;and
b) His participation in your board is perfectly acceptable to everyone here, what wasn't appropriate, and what amounts to schoolyard bully tactics, was his not dealing with the situation itself, and;
c) Understandme never, not once, represented himself as a Vietnam Vet. He was obtuse and crude, but if you, and Colin, had taken the time to read what he'd written, you'd have recognized that too.
As I told Colin in a post last night, I value his contributions here but I don't think what he did was responsible or anything to be proud of. I'm sorry if you can't see it that way.
By the way, you won't be finding me making any posts on your forum!

Colin, Rocky et al
I'm sure you're going to read this so let's get a couple more things out in the open. I have absolutely no problem with you dealing with anyone who posts to your site whom you think is a phony or an imposter or a poseur - that's your prerogative. But what goes on here is the business of the people who post on this site. You can hardly expect we'd be overjoyed with someone else stepping in to tell us how we should deal with matters here. If Colin had stood toe to toe and dealt with Understandme on his own and on the issues I would have had no problem with that. I think he’d have come to the conclusion I did, that Understandme never actually claimed to be a Vietnam vet – but that’s another question he’ll have to decide for himself.

But he didn't do that. He decided, secretly and on his own, that he'd get busy and educate us poor 'lefties'. You thought we'd be happy about that? You thought we’d be pleased that you guys thought it was laudable that you crash in here and tell us what idiots we were? You must be joking!

Give me a break - I've read your posts, I know you'd be upset if the same thing had happened to you too. Even now, after all that’s gone on, you’ve still got a member on one of your forums suggesting that Thomas49 and Understandme are the same person. That’s nonsense, believe me – and the proof is available if you’ll just read the posts in the archives here. But, enough of that.

As for Colin, as I said yesterday, I have no hard feelings and I hope he'll want to return and contribute as I think he's done in the past. For that matter, if any of the rest of you wants to contribute constructively (or critically for that matter) I have no problem either - but let's stick to the issues and not bring the style and attitudes of your place over here. I'd call that mutual respect and I don't think it's too much to ask.

As for names and bigotry, I defy any of you to find I've written anything like that, ever.
Cheers.

i see rambo has been celebrating texas'birthday and as usual been glued to his computer.i guess that's better than running around pissed with a gun.

something like bush looking for osama bin laden!

small wonder I am a Pacifist with people like this around.

wow ! is this a weird thread or what?

1. But what goes on here is the business of the people who post on this site.

2. You can hardly expect we'd be overjoyed with someone else stepping in to tell us how we should deal with matters here.

3. If Colin had stood toe to toe and dealt with Understandme on his own and on the issues I would have had no problem with that. I think he’d have come to the conclusion I did, that Understandme never actually claimed to be a Vietnam vet – but that’s another question he’ll have to decide for himself.

4. But he didn't do that. He decided, secretly and on his own, that he'd get busy and educate us poor 'lefties'. You thought we'd be happy about that?

5. You thought we’d be pleased that you guys thought it was laudable that you crash in here and tell us what idiots we were? You must be joking!

6. Give me a break - I've read your posts, I know you'd be upset if the same thing had happened to you too.

7. Even now, after all that’s gone on, you’ve still got a member on one of your forums suggesting that Thomas49 and Understandme are the same person. That’s nonsense, believe me – and the proof is available if you’ll just read the posts in the archives here. But, enough of that.

8. As for Colin, as I said yesterday, I have no hard feelings and I hope he'll want to return and contribute as I think he's done in the past. For that matter, if any of the rest of you wants to contribute constructively (or critically for that matter) I have no problem either - but let's stick to the issues . . .

9. . . .and not bring the style and attitudes of your place over here. I'd call that mutual respect and I don't think it's too much to ask.

10. As for names and bigotry, I defy any of you to find I've written anything like that, ever.

1. Unless the Moderator bans me, I’m a member of this site now.

2. I dealt with the liar and fraud. I “dealt with” nobody else until I was attacked for outing the fraud. I’ve outed numerous frauds before – this one was easy.

3. He was not sure, so he came to people that could give him the advice he sought.

4. Those are Colin’s words – not mine.

5. I “crashed” in here to out a fraud. What happened after that is in response to the idiocy that followed.

6. I’d be upset at what? If one of you came to TN and outed a fraud? I’d applaud that!

7. I’m not responsible for the posts of others – good or bad.

8. Maybe, maybe not.

9. As if the “styles and attitudes” in here are worthy of emulation. I’ve heard of people that think their sh*t doesn’t stink, but not as of late (until that comment).

10. If you felt you were unfairly caught in the shotgun blast, my apologies are extended. Being hated simply for being American or for being a soldier IS bigotry every bit as much as any other baseless hatred you can name.

You sound like a level-headed sort. Hopefully some of the others can learn to do the same.

Cheers.

hey rocky, I have very little use for americans, (politicians and corporations) I am totally pissed about softwood lumber, and mad cow to mention a few!

This is the last I have to say to you as it is off topic!

hey colin any respect I had for you as a poster is gone, going to another board and recruiting an american to help you out against an imposter that would have self distructed on his own in time is pretty sad and I say that with you knowing I do not like people who pretend to be veterans but then I am also referring to those who fought for this country, who are Canadians!

Gwest

You were wrong on how you perceived my comments on Nightbloom, of all the people on the Tyee he is in the top 3 that I would like to meet and I would enjoy listening to him. I also expect to bump into Ed, as I travel to his part of the world quite frequently and have no doubt when I do that I will be in for a long lecture. But it will be worth it as he has had quite the life.

I do disagree with your position, but not in how you articulate yourself and if you felt that I wrongly accused you of name calling when you didn’t I will take your word for it and say that I am sorry for claiming such.

I come to the Tyee not because I find it a comfortable and nice place to hang out, but because it challenges my perceptions and causes me to evaluate my own positions. I expect to learn from some of the people that post here and I hope that I can cause other people to reconsider their positions as well. I have put up with significant name calling, insults and threats over the past while from posters here at the Tyee, it has gotten better as the moderators here learn how to balance the site content.

As for your comments about libel. The only person that might be in a position to go after me is Understandme as I did call him a lair and a poseur. I gave that statement a fair bit of thought before saying it and did not say it lightly. I would be happy if he took me to court (I married to a lawyer, so no costs there) his case would have not lasted 5 minutes.

The other forum is for me a combination: neighbourhood pub, travel network and a place to learn about a huge variety of subjects. As I have travelled the world I know that I can knock on the door of the majority of the posters there and be welcomed. The membership is quite international. The language of that site is different from the language here as is the culture.

I am happy to let this rest and go back to talking to the issues at hand. As for Thomas, despite the coincidence of timing, I don’t think he is the previously banned person, I find his post annoying, insulting and incorrect, but that is his choice.

Ursus
I did not entice or recruit anyone to come over here, and only posted the link to here after being directly asked to. Most of the guys there will find little of interest here, but there are 9 or so members from BC that might stick around for local discussions. If you and Gwest feel you have lost respect for me that is a shame as I think you are mistaken about my intent or my principles.

This is my last post in this thread

boy this is better than a soap opera !

please Colin,don't go.stay.this is just getting good.

now let me get this straight.rocky said bullwinkle was anti american.bullwinkle said rocky was a commie.and colin said everybody knows he is right and natasha is a lawyer and boris is a witness,but is over on tanknet spying right now so is unavailable for comment.some one has got calvin or understandme or whoever the hell he is into the witness protection program.and the tanknet sites official phony baloney busters are working full tilt to indict thomas49.and i just stumbled into this and see a movie of the week.wow!am i gonna make some bucks on this.

it's like right outta the TWILIGHT ZONE !

Colin, Rocky
This is as good a way to leave it, in my opinion, as we're likely to find. You haven't convinced me about the purity of your motives and I still resent the implication that it was somehow your 'duty' to try and 'straighten' anyone out or eliminate anybody from this site. On the other site, hey, go for it if that's what you're into.

Colin:
Part of the problem, in my opinion, is simply the consequence of the way people use the internet. A lot of individuals adopt a persona when they post and it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. As I said, I had my own disagreements with Understandme earlier, if you read back into the archives in February you'll find that too as well as my thoughts about the military – so don’t think this is anything reflexive on my part. I think you have to keep in mind that many people post anonymously and are, in reality, nothing more than fictional characters.

I always keep that in mind and I think everyone who uses the internet in this way ought to do the same. However, it is a good place to debate ideas and should be kept to that in forums like this.

Rocky, as for anti-Americanism, you probably find that as troublesome as I found what I took to be your high-handed interference. Let's forget it. That kind of ad hominem negativity is as offensive as some of the things that were said about leftists - lets call it a wash and move on.
Cheers.

rocky! you wrote all that nasty stuff on tanknet at 0530? boy that musta been really cathartic.did ya do it on the throne to double your pleasure?
crappin on us lefties all day must be hard work,but i notice ya gotta lotta help on tanknets board.though when ya look around at the other issues,there are some real lame ones dealing with weapons that have ten times the interest than your issue.then again on your site there are some really wierd subjects.i think you were talking about circle jerks and mastubation last i looked.

and i would watch T19 .he writes like understandme/calvin/whoever.yes that's right check it out.english,typed out,puntuation,on the internet,in this universe,wow!it's gotta be him rocky,let's string him up!let's get whoever he is and stomp the sh*t outta him in front of the lefties.

boy do i feel better.now i see why people come here .it's a gas!

Would that be these remarks?

Rocky:

Well, then they are not the "lefties" I know, for they will bash a person simply for his chosen vocation (military) where they possibly would not do it for other vocations (union worker, etc.). That would be bigotry, as would bashing a person simply because they hail from a nation that the person (the supposed “leftie”) dislikes the national and/or international politics of that nation. I don’t believe we do that here, nor would the Moderators tolerate such bigotry on this board.

I believe I saw the word “sycophants” used on the Tyee board a number of times – used in a derogatory way to describe the TN membership. If there was ever a lemming-like sycophancy, it would be there, for it seems each person thinks and writes exactly alike and dissenting opinions are heresy, with the heretic (in this case, Colin) immediately stoned to death. It's a classic case of coward-like "pack mentality."

It is very disturbing that they would be upset because Colin detected a possible fraud there and so he came here looking for expertise in finding out whether or not the person was a fraud. Seems to me, that is a good thing . . . similar to the way I ask questions of the employees in the nursery when I have questions relating to the plants, trees and lawn at my house. For that, he is stoned. I'm betting that if Colin shared their political views and had done the same thing (come here for expert advice regarding a possible liar and fraud), he would not be receiving this treatment by them in the outing of the fraud. Bottom line - Colin's politics is the root of this treatment, not outing a fraud or coming here for advice.

I've most likely made my final comments there. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.

I wouldn’t waste my time there anymore, Colin. Let them engage in their mutual masturbation circle-jerk without you.

or these:

T19:

Noble motives? Judge for yourselves.

Geez, I had no idea this thread went on for another week.

Colin, I like your rightie posts, hope you stay and keep at it. But don't worry about the name calling, I've been called lots of things here worse than "neocon" but Elliot seems to be avoiding the place lately or maybe he's forgot his password again and will soon resurface with his 4th identity.

And as I've said to you before, at least righties can disagree with us here. I can't do that on Cdn right-wing sites where if you don't agree that Martin's a socialist you're banned.

G West:
Just to set the record straight....
UNDERSTANDME did claim to be a vietnam vet:

http://thetyee.ca/Entertainment/2006/02/17/RealWar/

Michael
As I told Colin, people adopt a persona. All understand me wrote was that he 'saw' Winter Soldiers. He never said he was in Viet Nam. Three dots is an elipsis, it means there is material left out. Understand me has a degree in English Lit - check it out, he told us - and he told everyone who was reading his posts to read them closely. It fooled me at the start too, as you'll have noted if you've read all the posts.
You have to look at everything he said and wrote, and the style he affected, in my opinion.

Anyway, I've made my position clear. I really don't care what Understandme said - if Colin had a problem with him he should have dealt with it here. Period.

I'm more than willing to let it go but there's no doubt in my mind the bad behavior wasn't limited to this side of the chasm.
Cheers.

micheal clift,i am sure you have seen that episode of SIENFELD,you know...

yadda,yadda,yadda

yer sew smart mikey,whud dit dat meen ?

whatever i can do to make the RIGHTWING look as STUPID as they really are,i will use every device at my disposal.

and there is not one site that can stop me from posting.................EVER !

because everything i do is WITHIN the LAW...and i have to play with my MORAL VALUES because there are the lives of Canadian Personell at stake.

PEACEKEEPERS!YES PEACEMAKERS!YES

CANON FODDER!NO

what a suitable ending.

thomas49
Amen, my friend!