Sam, Sam, will that be humble green eggs and ham?

I salute the citizen volunteers who fought down this ideological purge and would recommend yet one more citizens' committee. This one charged with filtering the weekly council agenda of such kill all the babies of ...total domination processes as this.

In the work place it's often called a poisoned atmosphere and the instigators are usually considered bottom feeders or the next link above.

I hope council keeps working like this. I don't think its wrong for Sam or any councillors to put forward motions, but I like it when a good debate happens, and the right decision gets made. If only our federal representatives would listen to citizens before legislating.

Agreed. Ironically, I think it may be possible that Sam needs the citizens to reduce the chance of him getting into trouble. They probably are a blessing in disguise for him. As my Granny used to tell me, don't do anything you wouldn't want published on the front page of the New York Times. This is really wise advice for our politicians of today. (in essence only, TNYT's is really questionable lately!)

The "James Green" phenomenon, and Sullivan's links to it has still not been adequately investigated and explained.

S.S. may have come by his mayor's position dishonestly. This could be a cloud that continues to follow him, helping to diminish his credibility and influence with council and voters.

...Serves him right, I say.

This is nonsense. These committees are the anonymous instruments of special interests and organized professional bodies, with a few token 'citizens at large' and 'youths' tossed in. I've yet to see a credible argument that they are genuinely democratic.

Even so, why the steadfast resistance to having a review of their role & function?

Because BC has already been through a 'core review' remember? We get the lingo.

Democracy is messy. It isn't perfect. So, we should eliminate the citizen groups because some think they are 'special interest', and allow the developers and corporations who are in the business of running gov't services inadequately to run wild at city hall?

The Arnold calls nurses and teachers special interest. Oh yes, so does Campbell etal. Why? They fight for public services. Please. Anything that isn't for the corporatation of our communities is named special interest, while the real special interest is given a free hand on our affairs to our detriment. Enough. The guy won by cheating. If he makes it two years without getting himself in real trouble, I'll be very surprised.

Cry us a river bobbbbbb. There is no cloud over him more than any others of his breed, as 80% of voters think our politicians are corrupt anyways. As long as politicians don't steal our money and give it to themselves, most people are fine to let them stab themselves in the back. And really, should Sam care if Visioneers don't like him, hardly I say.

You are going to have no chance to revisit this issue until 3 years from now, as no election laws have been broken (even if it had been a plot, it wouldn't be against the election code) and as no proceedings have been filed, its dead in the water.

But again props to council for overturning this. It shows the wheels of democracy have not yet come to a halt.

This episode demonstrates beautifully what a colossal mistake Vancouverites made in electing Sam Sullivan. Up to now, Sullivan has skilfully passed himself off as a plain-talking man of the people. In fact, he is an unimaginative ideologue--a self-confessed devotee of Ayn Rand--and a slavish yes-man for the senior bureaucrats and developers who always run City Hall under the NPA. The people who thought they had elected as Mayor a gutsy fighter for the common man should now realize their mistake. If they haven't figured that out yet, they will soon enough. It's going to be a long three years till the next civic election.

I attended this meeting, and it was an amazing affirmation for the power of citizen voices. I waited for ten and a half hours to give a 5 minute comment. And it made a difference.

Without the 15 people who also waited until 1:30am, the decision would almost certainly have been a block vote along partisan lines.

The accumulation of voices on the issue built on each other through the evening. When I had my chance to speak at midnight, I almost sensed a tipping point happen. For the first time of the evening Sam Sullivan spoke and addressed the concerns I'd highlighted about the logic of his motion.

When the last speakers finished it was clear that something had shifted, and the dramatic break in ranks occured when councillor Capri said something to the effect of 'I campaigned on a promise to get the information I needed to make informed decisions, and I'm having trouble with this one. Why do we have to suspend the committees to performa a review?'. The decisive act was then from councillor Ladner who said that he hadn't come in to the meeting expecting this, but he was going to vote in favour of reinstating the committees. This had seemed an impossibility at the beginning of the evening, but it was the citizen voices coupled with relentless pressure from Louis, Cadman, Stevenson, and Deal that allowed reason to shine through.

The second positive outcome not mentioned in the article above is that the council made ammendments to the motion (in a split decision), which then allowed them to unanimously move forward with the general review process! Without reaching a comprise to move forward on the first major issue, the stage would have been set for acriomony and partisan lines into the next three years. It seems like a significant precedent to have reached a compromise.

This meeting was a powerful experience for me. I am reassured that we a have a council that can listen and am empowered to see citzens capable of reversing an 'innevitability'.

Cheers to democracy.

Yeah why bother takin input from actual citizens when you can get your marchin orders straight from some shaunessy b!tch who wants homeless people to burn to death.
Ah so this is the shape and color of the new era!!!

Dear Tyee Readers and Staff,

I second point directed to all of you.

My attendance at this meeting was directly BECAUSE of the The Tyee. I had chanced upon the Democarcy Unplugged article by Herb Barbolet and decided to change my schedule to go to city hall.

After the council meeting, a number of councillors from both sides approached me directly and thanked me for my input and said it played a role in their decision. I can't imagine a better example of The Tyee having a direct and positive impact on our city.

I have felt strongly about the importance of diverse, local media but this really hit home to me that the benefit can be real. Media is not a passive force.

In recognition of the value that I and the rest of the city just received from the The Tyee I just made a contribution to their journalism fund.

Thank to all of your for supporting independant media and democracy in every way that you do. By reading, by contributing, by taking action on things that you read!

Bobb999, pay little mind to dangrice. He has been quite defensive of the James Green/Sam Sullivan coincidences ever since that corporately financed bus started delivering James Green to his media events.

My take on it is that it's simply another of the dirty tricks that are almost expected in BC politics, whether it's to elect a premier or the dog catcher.

Regardless, Sullivan's nice-guy veneer has been rubbed clean quickly revealing the petite Gordo underneath.

I doubt the people Sullivan was acting for, however, have given up their plans for a purging, so it might to wise to keep a very close ear to the ground around city hall in the months to come.

Yes, allan, well, danGrease [sic] apparently is of the school of thought that says "win at any cost", "cheat to win", "all's fair in love, war (and politics)"...a most disreputable school attended by those who've deservedly lost reputations.

I'm sure Sullivan's backers, as you say, will be prodding him to make them happy, and give them their money's worth for contributing to his campaign.

It is encouraging though that other NPAers on council appear to be self actualizing, voting their consciences.

...Who knows, Sullivan may end his term like Tim Louis: discredited, with his welcome from voters completely worn out.

Tim Louis isn't discredited. Surely, you don't mean his Che tee. He wore it on his chair for years and he's always fought for the poor in our society. Just because he didn't get in doesn't mean he was discredited. Not discredited at all!

Chris, congratulations! You engaged in some real participatory democracy! Good for you and for all of us who live in Vancouver.

Together we can make a difference.

Many blessings...

Bobb999,

And you are of the anonymous school-yard bully ilk. At least have the guts to post your name if you are going to start throwing insults around.

My Name? - Robert John Beatty (Vancouver).

Changing "grice" to "grease" hardly qualifies as a class A (or B or C) insult...or "bullying" for that matter.

And anyway, Mr. Grice mischaracterized ME as "crying a river" over James Green.

He was correct that I was metaphorically excreting liquids, but the tone of my post clearly revealed me not to be crying.....I was P*ssed!
************************
As for Tim Louis, I believe voters turfed him
and other COPE Classics for their apparent intransigence and inability or refusal to come to amicable agreements with the COPE Lights.

Voters blamed them as the main culprits in the COPE split. Louis often came across as the shrillest, most uncooperative of all of them.
(An example of small man syndrome gone wild.
This is not an insult. I believe s.m.s. exists among some s.m., which would help explain Louis' ugly attitude).

I voted for David Cadman, the only Classic re-elected, 'cause I respect him as one Classic who happens to be class act.

I voted for David Cadman and for all of other COPE Classics, all of whom were a "class act" in the crucial sense that they remained faithful to the membership who had nominated them, to the programme on which they had run, and to the electorate who had voted for them in 2002. None of those points can be said of Larry Campbell and his acolytes. The COPE Lites bear full responsibility for the return of the NPA. Even so, I held my nose and voted for them. Like many left-leaning voters, I was demoralized by the self-indulgent behaviour of Jim Green and his followers. Compared to the "Visionaries" (or should I say the "reVisionists")the COPE Classics were paragons of political virtue.

Sullivan figured since he somehow ended up as mayor he wields a big hammer. Gordo when he made mayor didn't like all those taxpayers cluttering up the place either. Both had certain powers but not absolute power that they really believe they have.

But the people we should really scratch our heads about, arn't the really far right supporters or even the middle right supporters. It's the short span thinkers who go to elections to get even with folks who in their view didn't do exactly what they wanted and and right now, no matter what.

Years ago the hatchets were out for the folks trying to set up needle exhanges or even earlier, insisting on basic fire protection in some sleezy hotels. Or the right for long term hotel residents to vote. Dangerous ideas for sure.
But Sam and friends will overturn bylaws that were there to help protect the middle of the road and slightly left folks who turned on COPE, Visions, and of course Jim Green. People don't vote for people, they vote against people

Any more news on James Green and his 12,000 a day campaign bus, a guy who had an office in the same building as Sammy, is Jim Green going to appeal the election or not, maybe some NPA councilors are a bit to progressive, so sad. Sammy was hoping for more George Puil clones. What sticker does Sam have on the
back of his chair Ronald Reagan, Thatcher or BUSH how about Gordo

Good question Stuart.

It does begin to puzzle me that this man who would be mayor if only everyone else didn't get more votes is too shy to come to his own defence.

All he'd really have to do is explain a few issues like who paid for the bus and with who's money.

The great thing about not winning though is you can always say "thank dog they don't have me to kick around any longer."

And I don't think there's any truth in the rumour that Sam Sullivan's haste to turf all those citizens' committee members was so he could reward the sacrificial lambs who sort of fell for good of the NPA

http://www.vancourier.com/issues05/123205/news/123205nn2.html

How could the federal Liberal candidate for East Richmond-Delta consider having James Green as her campaign manager? I would have thought that Cummins would have had a bit more of a challenge in this election.

I read somewhere that there is a second council meeting on Tuesday, to cover some of the remaining issues? Can anyone clarify? I'd like to fit it into my schedule.

Cheers!

Good link, Sue Clark

Funny how the rotten milk always runs to the top, James Green is a pro con artist and it is not surprising he is showing up all over the place, Marrisen is also a high level scum bag and Liberal insider. Funny how Larry Campbell is still acting out and being a ego maniac, he finds himself around like minded folks,
he just haven't realized yet he has more in common than he knows. Larry and James Green are on the same team.

Can anyone comment on how the citizen advisory groups are selected? Apparently, they seem to have quite a bit of sway in City decisions. Are they elected? Are there term limits?

- Kirk.

"Any more news on James Green and his 12,000 a day campaign bus, ".. Stuart...You can buy one of those buses for 50K. And rent them for next to nothing in the off season. It had Green ducktaped lettering for heavens sakes. I'd say 4-5K max for the whole run. Which is squat in any electoral race.

The follow-up meeting to cancel (or not) the Burrard Street bike lane trial and affordable housing for South East False Creek is Tuesday December 20, 9:30 am in Council chambers. The meeting may last a while so you might not have to get there at the start. Get down there if you have an opinion!

As far as I understand it, members of citizen advisory committees are
volunteer positions with one year terms. The city advertises the positions and then council selects from the applicants. (some info here http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/ctyclerk/civicagencies/civicindex.htm)

Thanks for the link ChrisM.

To be clear, I have no background knowledge on these commisions. But, having council pick volunteers seems like a bad idea to me. A majority on council could just pick their supporters and appoint them to lobby in a certain direction. From the comments in the story that a lot of VCPC votes are unanimous just seems to reinforce my fear that these groups are chosen to advocate specific views.

Maybe it just me that doesn't trust government appointments? Kind of reminds me of federal Senators.

- Kirk.

Council has voted to go ahead with the $15m sidewalk widening instead of the lane closure.

$15 million was the original estimate. Many people are saying it will now be closer to $25 million.

And remember the lane closure was just a TRIAL. So we are wasting $25 million instead of simply doing a TRIAL?

Everyone, except one, spoke in favor of the trial instead of wasting $25 million.

And then the NPA council voted not to spend $50 on affordable housing in SE False Creek.

So, $15 million on a sidewalk that no one wants and not $50 on affordable housing which is desperately needed.

Is the NPA council insane? Or just evil?

rob, maybe both.

i hate platforms. Why does everyone think that as soon as they're elected they need to change something. Its almost as bad as spending in the final months. I think government should be limited to listening in the first and the last year of their term. Almost like a good government buffer.

oh, sorry dangrice, but for a moment there I thought you were talking about the BC Liberals' track record.

Anyway, I think the answer to your question is ideology.

I see council voted along party lines to cancel the plan approved by the previous council for False Creek South.

The original plan called for one third subsidized housing for low incomes, one third for middle income folks, and one third for the rolling in dough class.

...Now, the sky's the limit. The well off only, need apply to live in new False Ck. developments.

Supposedly, 20% is still potentially subsidizable, but even that now appears threatened.

Dear Santa...would you please give Sam Sullivan a nice hair brush and a comb for Christmas. Oh, and maybe some grown in BC bud to make him sound a bit
more un-boring...
Thanx

"Well, I've been awfully quiet tonight, and a lot of the reason that I've been quiet is I've really been trying to get a handle on what's happening here.

I've been really impressed by the presenters, and I'm not surprised by that. To me, you are our members. My background is in the nonprofit sector. Our members are our voice. You are our members, and so I thank you very much for your voice and I thank you for your hard work.

When I vote, my vote is not going to be about getting rid of committees. To me, this is about process. The questions that I have, though, are questions that haven't been answered tonight, and i need answers to those questions in order to allow me to make a sound vote here.

And the biggest question that is on my mind, and it's been raised a couple of times tonight, and I'm not sure why we're not getting an answer to that, and that question is: what is the harm of re-instating the committees at this point? And if down the road there is a problem with those committees, is there not a process whereby they can then be disbanded or there can be corrective measures taken or adjustments made or some kind of process so that the committee can become effective? And so for me, to be able to support the amendment or the amended amendment or whatever, I need to understand that question, and I haven't heard that. So I'm hoping that someone can help me with that.

When I campaigned, people said "Don't make promises." I made two promises, and the two promises that I made were that I would get the information that I needed to make good decisions, and that I would vote according to my conscience. And right now, I'm really feeling tormented, and I feel your pain because this is such a personal issue for you, and I understand that, having been passionate about subjects myself, so I'm hoping that there will be an opportunity to get some answers. I need some help with this one."

Councillor Kim Capri

December 15, 2005
Vancouver City Council, Planning and Environment Committee