Thanks for this report. George Weber is my uncle. He died almost 4 years ago in January 2003.

CPT does some great work throughout the world. Maybe Canada should take a lesson from these people and send more CPT teams to places like Haiti and fewer military personnel. Like the saying goes, " you can be part of the problem or part of the solution" Pointing guns at people proves to be a poor solution to peace, especially when those holding the guns are children indoctrinated to hate and to kill.

Ever see one of those police shows where the cops point there guns at someone who is threatening to commit suicide with a gun? What are they going to do? Shoot them?!!

George would sometimes see the humour of a situation like that and sometimes be irate with the utter stupidity of people. Me too.

I just read another report by Dair Jamail on Znet this morning.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=9225
For anyone who still thinks that teh u.s is trying to bring peace to the mid east they should read the article. What a sham. Like our troops in Haiti bringing democracy by shooting people in peaceful demonstrations, kicking down the doors of peoples homes and abducting people whos only crime is in being the member of a political party. We can't have democracy until the opposition is in jail. Christ on a crutch!

I wish all the families of those kidnapped all the best. May you gain the spiritual strength you need to sustain you in love and hope.

After laboring 20 minutes on message, Tyee could not post comment. Went to "Back" and was returned to thread and lost message. Most annoying!

These are courageous people who, judging by the rising death toll of reporters and journalists in ares of conflict, are as likely to become victims of "friendly fire"

In this time of the rampaging US Empire in the Middle East, with most western States including Canada, in the Gulf and Afghanistan, playing an enabling and facilitating role for the imperialist invasion of Iraq, anybody with half a brain would know that this is not a time for any dubious players from the West to be interfering there. With many such groups as this in the past having played the role of "information providers" to the CIA and the US War Machine, including amongst the UNs own so-called WMD inspectors, to have gone there at this time even if one's intentions were entirely innocent, the stupidity of this at best naive "Christian" group far outweighs any bravery of which they may be possessed.

The Iraqis and their organizations resisting foreign/outsider invasion from the Greater US Empire and its coalition of the bribed, are locked in a deadly struggle to drive this, enemy from their midst. And the warnings of outsider interference have been many and deadly, regardless of whoevers "do-gooder" intentions, especially perceived Crusader Christians. They ignored the warnings at their peril and are likely now to reap their own martyr complex outcome.

Iraq is locked in a struggle for its national survival and the defence of its oil resources against new Corporate Crusader interests, and the Empire that serves them. Only the most brainless of the brainless, especially again from the West, would attempt to play the mugs game these lunatic Christians took upon themselves.

One wants to help the Iraqis?

Join the struggle HERE to force the Empire to return its troops home and halt its invasion. And demand that Canada stop playing its traditional bootlick role, freeing up US troops in Afghanistan with our own participation there, so that the Empire is better able to carry out its crime against the people of Iraq. This would be really useful, and a whole lot less foolish and likely to end in some kind of fanciful martyrdom.

In this time of the rampaging jihad in the Middle East, with the anti-war right and left in the western States including Canada playing an enabling and facilitating role for the theocratic conquest of the world, anybody with half a brain would know that this is the time for all serious players from the West to be interfering there.

One wants to help the Iraqis?

Join the struggle HERE to return the troops home after facilitiating a transition Iraq's to democracy. And demand that Canada increase its traditional peacemaker role, freeing up US troops in Afghanistan with our own participation there, so that there are two new nations organized according to human rights principles, so that theocrats and fascists do not extend the crimes against the people of Iraq. This would be really useful, and a whole lot less foolish and likely to end in some kind of fanciful martyrdom.

Who clearly has difficulty speaking in his own words, with his limited grasp of the language, and so must mimic. Which is okay. Mimicry is a kind of compliment, which I accept. :-)

Other than that, what we have here is clearly another pathetic wingnut Canadian who is a Yankee Wannabe. And even want this country to have a US Wannabe military and military role, listening to and obeying "His Masah's Voice."

Yammer is as pathetic an intellect as ever, incapable of functioning independently, so he would have the nation be as he. He says it not, of course, but fairly safe assumptions could be made and money placed on his vote next election.

So, Coyote, do we just leave it for the military to decide what's fit to be handed to a slavish media?

Certainly, under cover of religious and other groups, agents have worked for fascist regimes where popular social movements have been judged to have been counter to U.S./corporate interests.

I did not get this from the mainstream media, but it was reported that, in Iraq on seperate occasions U.K. and U.S. soldiers were detained by Iraqi police and locals but were whisked away by Allied military police before others could ask questions. These soldiers were reportedly dressed in Arab garb and were placing carbombs.

It is a story such as this that might be confirmed or refuted, first hand, by peace-workers such as these.

Your mentioning of a possible yearning for martyrdom was a smear. They want the slaughter of this criminal war to stop - not their own deaths.

Deborah,

Have you heard anything on this carbomb story? I believe those who perpetrated "shock and awe" are quite capable of such vile intrigue.

Coyote,

I was showing up the emptiness of mere anger by recycling your format and replacing key words.

I have supported my pro-invasion opinion with facts (compare annual death count in Iraq before and after invasion) and respected on-the-ground opinion (compare Amnesty, HRW, UNHCR human rights reports before and after invasion).

You drivel.

I win.

And Skeptikool, can you imagine either the United States or this country allowing Iraqi "Muslim" organizations into this country even, to work and organize to end the US involvement in Iraq, and that even were that so, that they would not have to be prepared to deal with threat of death from US paramilitary and other organizations?

Such "Muslim" individual counterparts of these types could certainly equally be characterized as naive "interfering" fools, even though they assuredly have greater justification, in that it is their country being occupied by the US Empire, with this country running an enabling interference for them.

It's a strange thing about folks from the west, like their States, they seem to think they should have a special right to wander in and interfere in the affairs of other people's lands, and decide what's best for them, and take what they wish-, whereas Syrians and others from, for example, their common region and Arab ethnicity , are intruding "foreigners" for going to the assistance of the Iraqi Resistance, their neighbours.

Iraq, to some intellectuals and religious "believers", may be some kind of academic religious exercise and presumed right, but to very many Iraqis, it is a life and death struggle for them, in which they are engaged with the Empire and The West-, and what the Hell are these western Christians doing here, and whose interests are they really serving?

We might even have the luxury of giving such naivete the benefit of the doubt, from our relative comfort and security, but they most certainly do not. If even one of these well meaning but however naive

religious do-gooders are gathering information and connections for the CIA, as does the country they come from, it could well cost very many of them their lives, their nation, and their national wealth.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. But regardless, even assuming the good intentions of these "Christians", the slavish media as you describe, will decide what's fit to disseminate from them anyway. Nothing will change in that regard.

Besides, there are on the internet many Iraqi "nationalist" resource being put out by Iraqis themselves, from many points of view. We can choose to believe them or not, the same as others will these Christians.

They are serving no real purpose for us, being as news resource rich as we are in any case. And the Iraqi street and/or its Resistance has an understandable right and prudence to wonder what role "not declared" might be being served by these folks wandering over and interfering in their country and struggle with the invader. They are from the land of the invader afterall.

Change the scenario some. Put the US Empire invasion in Canada, and there is a similar life and death struggle to drive it from our territory. What attitude might our Resistance Fighters have, presuming there is such balls and national will in this country, towards groups of Christian US Citizens wandering this country, asking questions, meeting with persons and groups, maybe handing out cash and taking pictures?

Now, they MIGHT be entirely innocent persons, BUT also, they might bloody well not. They and the information the pickup, gather, or otherwise absorb might well become to be a serious threat if they are allowed to turn home.

That's the reality of the kinds of situations in which these folks have decided to poke their noses.

And I note by the by, that they had just concluded a meeting with a group of Sunni religious clerics in a mosque, shortly after which they were picked up. The suspicion is that somebody in attendance at that meeting called in the insurgents.

It would be interesting to know what discussion went on there.

They will escape with their lives only if these insurgents conclude that they are mere harmless fools, posing no threat. But you can bet, the insurgents will give themselves the benefit of the doubt, if there is even the slightest, being the only wise course for them to follow. In which case, these folks are already walking dead.

Coyote.

Re: Exactly what I mean. It bears repeating: Truth is the first casualty.

You may recall the lashing the mainstream media took in the first Allied assault on Iraq. Wasn't it Peter Jennings who acquired some sort of fame by bringing us some truth after seperating himself from the embedded butt-kissers - little more than shills for the military?

We're talking about a contrived, illegal war based on lies in which, if the truth were known, the combined dead probably exceed 300,000.

Fixing things from here may be an answer, but if response to this article is any indication, seeking alternative methods becomes understandable.

I think you fail to understand Coyote. My uncle George who was in Iraq and died there would more likely have supplied information to Iraqis' than to u.s. troops. He had no taste for the u.s. and it's military regime, he despised capitalism and unfettered multi national corporations.

There is a point to be made that missionaries through time have been used as the vanguard for foregin incursion. They would have had little luck using George Weber for their vanguard.

The purpose of the CPT is to try to prevent abuses of power so if they were in a position to film and record u.s. troops they might have some moderating effect.

Well you've taken a position and you'll probably stick with it. That's fine but I disagree.

I'm not sure why you use the term "christians" but not all christians are bad:-) I'm not one but some of my best friends are;-)

Warpengi,

I have no reason to doubt you at all. In fact, I am inclined to believe you.

It is not me your uncle and his friends have to convince however, and I suspect they will not be so quick to give him the benefit of the doubt. It is not a situation that allows that luxury to the insurgents-, nor would many of us in their place-, that is what you must understand... if the outcome of this is not what you and your family might hope. And the odds are likely better than 50/50, I would guess, that he is soon going to be taken up to heaven on the sword of Allah rather than a cloud.

But then, anyone of us take up a cause, you better already have it in your mind that you may have to live with the consequences. Important to be real about that.

Again, we can be naive. The Iraqi Resistance most assuredly cannot afford to be.

Christians, only because there are Christians and there are Christians, like every other "ism". Many I despise, true enough. But likewise, many of them are also my friends-, though unknown to most of them, for a goodly number of them are less likely to be so understanding, I am an athiest. But eh, I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household. I have a pretty good understanding of most of these folks. Still know the Bible as well as a good number of them. :-D Salt of the earth, some of them, but... Woo, woo. And I'm talking a brother and sister here. Other than that, I love them.

I mean, there was no age of the dinosaurs and the earth is only... What is it? ...6000 years old, or something like that. And Jesus was born to a virgin! Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs, they had two sons, and one of them went off into a foreign land to begat himself a wife. Where the phuck did she come from? A little incest happening here? (And eh, it wasn't long ago, in my lifetime, that virtually ALL Christians believed these stories literally. I grew to adulthood being told and believing that all men have one less rib than women, because of the one Adam gave for Eve. No end to the sacrifice of we males for these ladies is there? :-)

C'mon. Credibility out the window. :-)

LOL Coyote.

Can't argue with some of those observations.

I have to say however you have not read the article or my posts thoroughly, my uncle died in Iraq before the official start of this latest war so he is gone already.

I don't think the people who enter this are fools and my uncle certainly was not one. So most of them (you can always find a fool or 2 in any crowd) know damn well that they have to accept the consequences of their actions. I think if CPT'ers die for their beliefs it is a much better death than the military personnel in a foreign country could ever hope for.

Your damn right I wouldn't trust a 'murican peace keeping team if they came into an occupied Canada.

The CPT'ers are probably much more aware of what they are in for than you give them credit for. They have organisation behind them that is not trying to get them killed and that believes there is a non-violent way to protest. They are honourable, courageous and heroic. Not foolish as you seem to think. These are the kinds of people we should look up to and respect for their commitment to their beliefs. After all they are only saying they would like to have fewer people killed and they are not willing to kill to bring that about.

They are not trying to make anyone believe anything other than that they should not kill.

The CPT may be well intentioned, but their approach has done little to help the Iraqi people, if that be their aim. Coyote is right on many counts. This hostage taking by insurgents may escalate the villification and justification, in the minds of both Americans and the British, of their initial bombardment of Iraq for its natural resources. If people from this side of the fence first suspect the CPT to have a "missionary Christian agenda" in Iraq (whether they do or not), one would hardly expect those wanting to wreck havoc in a precocious state of stability to exercise empathy for the CPT's cause. Hope, re-establishment of schools, and peace is the only thing that will help all those who have been victims of war (that have been on-going longer than I've been alive). Working with organizations which have connections with the people within the affected community is the most beneficial and progressive approach. I have worked with FOCUS Humanitarian Assistance - and they were the first on the scene with aid after the earthquakes hit central Asia and Pakistan because they supply helicopters, first-aid, and food that is distributed by trained people from those regions. Iraqis are highly educated people, but the western media has a desire to portray them as incompetent to justify their intrusion. There is a fine line between heroic and foolish - and one has to contemplate how to best apply our good intentions.

Warpengi,

Which, again, is going to be a mesage that the Iraqi insurgents are going to have little sympathy for, or likely want popularized around the country right now-, which would only leave the US military standing there with force of arms, were it taken up.

And again, I don't dispute the goodness of heart or even the courage of these folks, just their wisdom. And indeed, though hopefully I'm wrong about their fate here, a much more honourable death they may go to than that of any US Empire trooper. No doubt, they are the real and most pathetic dupes, cannon fodder here-, the poorest and working class kids fighting for the interests of the most wealthy citizens of Amerika.

Sad all around. Though frankly, for none more than the Iraqis, who frankly, I hope suceed in driving Empire troops into the Gulf. To which this well meaning folks are little more than a distraction, in the big picture, again however well intended.

And it is important for us as well that the arrogance of the US Empire suffers another severe defeat here in Iraq AND Afghanistan, that leaves them bloodied and bowed for a long time. It may make them easier for us ALL to live with-, for awhile.

Peace and love is a nice sentiment, coming from a mythical "Saviour" or our own efforts, and no doubt is a worthy ideal and practical objective. It's just that in specific situations, such as in the case of a foreign military occupation like the Iraqis are having to endure, to have a bunch of Christian "goodniks" from the invaders part of the world running around preaching their message of pacifism, may come across a little galling to the victim here, and impractical. It may even, to hard pressed people, seem to serve the interests of The Invader more-, for I'm sure the Bushies would like nothing better right now than to have the Iraqi Resistance lay down their arms and pray for peace instead.

Sorry to rattle on, but while I can sympathize with these folks on one level, I can't help but consider them naive, even harmful fools on another.

Avicenna,

I think you make two really important points here, one is this above, on which we agree of course. But no less, nay even more cutting, is your observation about the intelligence and sophistication of Iraqi citizens generally. This is an ancient civilization, indeed reputedly the very cradle of modern human civilization, which over its long history has worked its own way with and defeated tyrants and foreign invaders many, many times. And prior to the US inspired embargoe on their trade and subsequent invasion , in large part to secure their oil riches, they were possible the most materially wealthy country in the Middle East, the most highly educated certainly, and with women near fully integrated into all walks of life, or at least enjoying an equality level unequalled as well throughout the region. And it was a secular state, which it is unlikely to be after this invasion-, as there is near universal agreement.

We, ourselves and the US, on the other hand are relatively new and culturally primitive states, with a great wealth secured by wresting a resource rich continent from its original Native inhabitants. (Whom we continue to leave virtually destitute, while doing good works elsewhere.)

Do gooders from here have relatively little to offer Iraqis, especially outside the material aid sphere. And to the degree they can use our help in this very particular situation, we would be better to focus on influencing the imperialist policies of our own State regimes and as you say, Avicenna, "Working with organizations which have connections with the people within the affected community is the most beneficial and progressive approach."

I agree entirely.

It was a bunch of "goodniks" the Human Rights Watch, that have just revealed the names of 26 detainees (not a complete list) held by the U.S. in offshore prisons, incommunicado and possibly subjected to torture. This, reported by HRW today.

I wonder if any of this U.S.-based "leading human rights group" left the safety and warmth of their home-based personal computer keyboards to collate this information.

The particular details of each instance are important here. Human Rights Watch gathering its info from here, or indeed throughout the West and even under particular circumstances, into any "peaceful" region of the world is one thing. These Christian pacifists presumptuously interfering within and into the "internal affairs" of Iraqi citizens, in a state of war against foreign invasion, is quite another.

Apples can only be compared to oranges by analyzing and taking into account the particular differences that also make them different, one to the other.

Good intentions are not always good enough, in real life politics, where our own subtle arrogances and presumptions of right can get us in deep shitt with other peoples' perceptions and presumptions of right. It is important to consider whether it is really prudent and necessary for one to go there, especially into another's home, and presume to tell them how to live.

lol....these do-gooders are more ignorant than brave. their good intentions would be more useful elsewhere in the world. he's a little hint for them in their future endeavours. leave your religion at home when you want to do good abroad. if you can't do good without religious overtones you may have your own issues to deal with.

I wouldn't dismiss the Quaker peace movement as 'do gooders'. They appear to be truly humanitarian. A while back I posted a link here to their organization and their tenets etc, unfortunately I can't find it. They don't 'convert'.

I don't doubt that in addition to some who submit to a religion, there are many atheists and agnostics who feel strong revulsion at what is happening in Iraq and toward the warmongering perpetrators.

This is not about religious conversion. It is about shining a light on those that would commit their heinous acts under cover of darkness.

I do understand where you are coming from primarily, Skeptikool. And fundamentally, we are both opposed to this US launched invasion on the territory of the people of Iraq, largely as part of an Empire plan to steal their oil resources and secure US control over the entire Middle East. It is a criminal "imperialist" war which violates all the accepted international norms on warfare-, starting from fabricated premises and ongoing lies.

We are essentially on the same side of the Iraq war, I know that, as well, I have great respect for yourself. There will, however, always be tactical differences amongst even people who otherwise agree on major objectives, such as we have here. Religion is not the real issue for me, be you whatever, or I of another philosphical view. (Religion versus the athiest view of life and the universe is something I am more typically inclined to get into arguments about, in relatively more private moments, say around the kitchen table over a whiskey or two. I have otherwise never had a problem working with folks of whatever religion. Not from my part. :-)

.

The western media's attitude: paternalistic , patronizing, conveniently blurring the borders of resistance..where Iraqi freedom fighters often become defined as insurgents...and Iraq is seen as a weak victim caught in its own chaos... in need of saving from itself.

As Arundhati Roy, Indian writer and chair of the WTI has written:

"Iraq has shown spectacular courage and has even managed to put up what actually amounts to a defense: a defense which the Bush/Blair pair has immediately denounced as deceitful and cowardly. (But then deceit is an old tradition with us natives. When we're invaded/colonized/occupied and stripped of all dignity we turn to guile and opportunism). writes Roy.

"Clearly for the 'Allies ', the only morally acceptable strategy the Iraqi army can pursue is to march out into the desert and be bombed by B-52s or be mowed down by machine-gun fire.

"Anything short of that is cheating. "

In a wonderful article by her, the name escapes me (but I have the link below) she writes how this same idea of victimhood, can be created by many NGO's (not all) with even the best of intentions, such as the CPT (a Christian one) mentioned in this article.

"NGOs give the impression that they are filling the vacuum created by a retreating state. And they are, but in a materially inconsequential way. Their real contribution is that they defuse political anger and dole out as aid or benevolence what people ought to have by right.

They alter the public psyche. They turn people into dependent victims and blunt the edges of political resistance. NGOs form a sort of buffer between the sarkar and public. Between Empire and its subjects. They have become the arbitrators, the interpreters, the facilitators...

Apolitical (and therefore, actually, extremely political) distress reports from poor countries and war zones eventually make the (dark) people of those (dark) countries seem like pathological victims. Another malnourished Indian, another starving Ethiopian, another Afghan refugee camp, another maimed Sudanese . . . in need of the white man's help. They unwittingly reinforce racist stereotypes and re-affirm the achievements, the comforts, and the compassion (the tough love) of Western civilization."

Here's the link:
http://www.democracy now.org/static/Arundhati_Trans.shtml

Sorry, "Public Power in the Age Of Empire":

democracynow.org/static/Arundhati_Trans.shtml

I remember the role internationalistas played in Sandinista Nicaragua, including some who were killed by the contras. For years the US waged its "low itensity conflict" there, primarily against civilian targets. A pattern repeated in many places. The solidarity workers didn't stop Reagan, but they were an important part of the solidarity movement.

During this time I heard about groups like the CPT and others who would place themselves in risky situations around the world in an effort to protect human rights. Some accompanied refugees returning to Guatemala. Although I I never took part in those kinds of direct action to work for peace, I do respect those who do.

When I look at the faces of the CPT members who've been kidnapped and might be executed, I see the faces of people who care enough to risk their lives. I can't imagine saying some of the self-righteous, cynical and judgmental things that have been posted here, especially knowing that these people may not be alive next month.

If you don't agree with the CPT activists, why not talk about what *you* are prepared to *do* to bring about change, instead of slagging them from the safety of your computer station? As the graffitti used to say on a stucco'd Vancouver wall, "talk minus action = zero".

An excellent piece our friend Biscotti could get something from with his own particular kind of self-righteousness, which invariably somehow involves "the whiteman's burden".

Well, I do not agree with CPT activists. My view is, unless Iraqis specifically call for an international presence on the front lines over there, we should leave them to the business THEY feel they have to do. These are not idiots. They have dealt with many invaders like the US Empire.

Indeed, The Empire is already looking increasingly on the ropes, over there and internally.

What we can most usefully do is impact our own societies and governments, in our case, to stop being such a bootlick facilitator for the US Empire. That's the REALLY BIG problem this society has yet to address, even regarding our own problems with The Empire. And secondly, if we do that, we are also ideally positioned to have an effect on the Empire heartland itself-, for they could not function nearly so well and effectively as they do without our raw materiale or our arms production which we ship to them, everything from uniform components to arms equipment. (But wahhhh, that might involve some economic suffering for our poor wee selves and our market driven morality.)

So clearly, there is a great work that has to be and can be done from here, of far greater use to Iraqis, than our sanctimoniously going over there to demonstrate and preach pacifism or whatever.

They will look after that end. We need to better look after this end of things. WE HAVE NO MORAL SUPERIORITY TO OFFER THEM. (Where's all that virtuous Christian humility we hear so much about?)

And best as I can from my position and with my physical limitations, that is what I am doing. So phuck you, Biscotti.

One of the great problems with Christians and Christianity is its sanctimonious need to preach to and convert unbelievers. What is your problem that such as you pack around this moral superiority and mission, that is the real Whiteman's Burden, that would make you even think you have something morally superior to teach Muslim or secular Iraqis.

There are lots of ways, much more deeply imbued with real Solidarity that we can do from here, positioned where we are next to US imperialism, than directly interfering into and with Iraqis and their affairs. They're doing quite well without us, with their fellow Arabs in the region, in wrestling their US Empire enemy to the ground.

The real problem is that we are not doing all we can from where we are ideally situated to really demonstrate our solidarity with Iraqis.

What are you doing?

Phuck, we as a people even have a problem demonstrating effective solidarity with and amongst ourselves! We are way more pathetic than Iraqis-, and we're a phucking Democracy, so called!

Like, aren't you all kinda missing the point here? No, actually TWO points:

1. Say I go to a beach, and I put up a sign there that says "DANGER! SHARK-INFESTED WATERS! SWIM AT YOUR OWN RISK!" Now, say some moron sees that sign and reads it, and says to him/herself "Golly. How neat-o! Now where's my surfboard? Off I go!!" And then, he comes back ashore, minus an arm, a leg and his testicles. See my point? The stupid plank deserved and asked for what he got, and that's just too-bad-so-sad. These CPT folks have really got to get their collective heads out of their anal gashes, and smarten up. What, now people back home are supposed to feel sorry for them?? Bunch of stupid, misguided zealots. What, they think they can just toddle off to any shithole in the world, and start spouting off about "Jesus-this-and Jesus-that-and-lawd-here-comes-the-Rapture!!" Yeah? Well, I'd like to see Jesus airlift their sorry asses outta there now!!! Dolts. The two Canadians should have stayed at home, and watched the phuckin' hockey game.

2. How does what is going on in a backward mudheap like Iraq have anything to do with Canada or any Canadian?? Unless it's our troops there, I really don't see what the big friggin' deal is. It's none of our business. Pure and simple. They could turn Baghdad into a sand dune tomorrow to piss on, for all I care.

Thanks, but I think I'll support/encourage OUR troops currently in in Afghanistan, rather than worry about a couple of Jesus-nutjobs who didn't have enough common sense to stay at home, and instead stupidly decided to go swimming with sharks.

Canuck1

Oh, and Coyote?

I never gave a shit about your Iraqi buddies before the war, and I certainly don't give a shit about them now. If they kick George Bush's ass, hey--bully for them! And if they don't, so phuckin' what?? And besides, did you know that there is NOT ONE SINGLE nation on the planet that has an Islamic government that operates or lives like they're in the 21st century?? They're ALL living as if it's New Years Day.....1000 A.D.!!!

Shit Coyote, I'd have more respect for ya, if you decided to give that homeless derelict up the street from you a couple of bucks for a coffee and sandwhich, instead of sputing off and fretting about some dust-baked, third-world savages, who wouldn't know what to do with a peaceful, non-violent democracy even if it bit them on the ass (Iran-Iraq War...went on for EIGHT years...HELLLOOO????)

Canuck1

Biscotti.....

Those "faces" you look at, and see those "poor, caring people" who are so "brave"....

I've seen those same faces, and you know what I see?

The look of utter, total, incomprehending STUPIDITY. You know, the look that says "Maybe I should have used a big, black magic marker to help connect the dots for me".

Kind of like the same look you'd see on someones face if they were born and raised in B.C.

Like I've always said.....

STUPIDITY = INCOMPETENCE = DEATH.

Study math or take a common sense pill.

You'll live longer.

Canuck1

Nice to see we have an expert on savage stupidity on board....

Unfounded assumptions, innuendoes and false syllogisms take up an inordinate amount of space here. The main one appears to be an assumption that the CPTers are evangelizing, which I doubt very much. But if the word "Christian" in CPT presses too many buttons for you, check out the Peace Brigades International at http://www.peacebrigades.org/

Can someone pls explain how Harmeet Singh Sooden suffers from the white man's burden :-o

The bottom line for me is that dissing other people for their beliefs or actions always looks like a complete waste of time and space.
Dissing someone who isn't part of the conversation, or able to respond, seems unfair.
Dissing a person who may be executed any day is simply repugnant.

Whatever happened to left wing values of solidarity, tolerance, respect and love for our fellow humans, regardless of their creeds? It's not the first time I've seen name-calling and insults divert or turn off a discussion in these spaces.

I agree that the primary role of western activists is to influence our own governments'
actions. Chomsky makes that point clearly and regularly. But this role needn't preclude action on other fronts. And surely we ought to be free to choose where to focus our own efforts.

Mine go into a variety of organizing, letter-writing, graphics, agit-prop, articles, and other projects. Sometimes I bake things for people involved in a strike or campaign that I want to such support ;-)

I enjoyed Arundhati Roy's "Ivory Snow or Tide" speech - thanks for the link, Lynn. And thanks for the article here, Deborah. I hope your book sells well.

Has anyone read "Who Killed Daniel Pearl?" by Bernard Henri Levy? The kidnapping of James Loney and Harmeet Singh Sooden has some interesting parallels to that case.

Meanwhile, Andy Goodman, Michael Schwerner, Charles Horman, Conrado de la Cruz, Walter Voordekers, Raoul Leger, Jean Donovan, Ita Ford, Maura Clarke, Dorothy Kazel, Ben Linder, Rachel Corrie ... and so many others, with and without names ... ¡presente!

And thanks to everyone for representing all the competing parts of my consciousness in this discussion (except Canuck 1, of course)--lynn, baily, coyote, biscotti, et al. I'm tempted by all of these points of view, including those that call attention to the intellectual imperialism of christian carpetbaggers, but also by those who counsel a bit of empathetic decorum for people who did what they thought was right and who might be dead within a few hours.

Canuck1 represents a certain point of view: "screw em."

The question I have is whether the antiwar movement stands for anything more than this.

I wish the US government were led by someone better intentioned, or at least not visibly brain damaged.

I totally share the reflexive disgust at Bush and his government. But in the narrow issue of the war, deposing SH by force and imposing constitutional and institutional reform has clearly been a net gain for the Iraqi people.

What's left is the discussion of why alternate means didn't achieve this.

Golly.

I just get a kick out of some long-winded posts here, that go on and on and on, ad nauseum....yet still manage to say nothing. Just a lot of nonsensical drivel that misses the whole point. People like Biscotti seem to feel that if they make a show of somehow being "intellectual" or knowing how to spell makes them somehow ...refined? Knowledgeable? Meanwhile, all I see is someone using that age-old formula: If you can't dazzle them with science, then baffle them with bullshit. And in the middle of this maelstrom, the REAL formula gets lost in the shuffle: the formula of ACCOUNTABILITY; the premise REAPING WHAT YOU SOW; the idea of TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR ONES OWN ACTIONS.

Look, I DO hope these folks somehow make it home in one piece, even in spite of their moronic decision to go in the first place. At the very least, they may very well have learned a valueable lesson, and thus make them wiser people for it. However, isn't it ironic that in ALL of these posts, no one....but NO ONE....has cast ANY blame or disgust or any negative comments at...the sick, twisted animals who TOOK THEM HOSTAGE TO BEGIN WITH?? Oh sure, we can all blame the U.S. for going there in the first place, and having them be the cause of it (as many have); and we can blame various ideological factions who are slitting each others throats for a chance to have a seat within the "NEW AND IMPROVED IRAQI GOVERNMENT".....yet NO ONE is blaming the homicidal fruitcakes holding the swords at these defenceless peoples' necks. Why is THAT, I wonder?

Mr. Yammer....so you think deposing Saddam has been a "net gain" for the Iraqi people, huh? You mean those same Iraqi people who now have widespread corruption at every level, complete lawlessness in the streets, an electrical grid still not up to snuff, no clean water, no decent medical attention, starvation, disease, and an overall crummy outlook on life? Oh yeah, right...THOSE Iraqi people. Yes, I'm sure they're thankful each and every single day of their current lives.

History lesson for all of you "educated" types out there:

In the early 1900's, the British government overthrew and deposed the Iraqi government at that time; the Brits painstakingly built up a new government, new army, and once this new Iraqi army was up and running, the left. Then, a few years later....the New Iraqi Army turned on this "democratic" government.....and slaughtered them all. Presto! Another tyrannical ruler is born. This continues up until the outbreak of World War II, whereupon the brave Iraqi people try to do what? JOIN FORCES WITH NAZI GERMANY!! Hoorayyy!!! The British come BACK, and say "Oh dear me! You can't join THEM. Here, let us build up a NEW government for you, with a NEW army!!" So they do. This lasts up until WWII concludes, and would ANYONE like to guess what happens? Huh? Yup. The Iraqi's turn around, and their NEW Army wipes out the "democratic" government.

And now the Americans are there.

See where this is going?

These people for some reason CANNOT, or WILL NOT, or otherwise REFUSE....to have anything to do with "democracy". They WANT a strong leader lording over them, even if it is a tyrant. You think a majority of Iraqis right now hate Saddam?? Cripes, most of them still ADMIRE the bastard. Even MISS him, no less.

So Yammer, it's not a case of "screw 'em". Far from it. It's a case of history already having been written, established and soon-to-be repeated for the umpteenth time.

And no matter how many people like Biscotti spew their sophomoric, pseudo-high school garbage.....this pattern will continue to repeat until everyone from George I'm-a-complete-phuckin'-moron Bush to the average putz on the street and EVERYONE in between......simply learns from it.

Once you know the pattern, AND the signs AND you READ them (kinda like a shark-infested water sign)....BUT...you still IGNORE them....

you (meaning anyone who displays blissful, wanton ignorance) are now....stupid.

I don't know if anyone is still tracking these comments but I read an interesting article that pertains.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=9289

Here are 2 quotes:

“We reject the use of violent force to save our lives in the event we are kidnapped, held hostage or caught in the middle of a violent conflict situation. We also reject violence to punish anyone who has harmed us.”

True to CPT’s principles, the catchphrase, “Love your Enemies; End the Occupation; Release the Peacemakers,”

What some of the commentators have failed to realize, I think, is that the CPTers feel that is is OK to die for a just cause. It is not necessarily THE answer to peace on earth but at least they are trying something that is not perpetuating the societies that continue to visit these horrors on others.

Are you going to work today? Then count yourself as one who allows these horrors to continue while you lend tacit support to the perpetrators. We all buy u.s. made goods and tell our leaders by our actions that, "hey, it's OK that people are dying over there from our guns and ammunition. It's not happening here so we're not gonna bust a gut."

Okay, warp.

I'm gonna throw a hypothetical at you:

I'm taking a walk in the neighbourhood, right? And as I'm walking--horror-of-horrors!!--I happen to notice through the curtains of my good buddy Warpengi's house, that him, his wife, and his kids are all bound and gagged, kneeling on the living room floor. They're all surrounded by what looks like these armed, homicidal thugs brandishing weapons. Who they are, and why they're there is a moot point. Time is critical and of the utmost essence. The local constabulary is at least 20 minutes away. After sizing up the situation, I conclude that the only way I'm gonna save Warpengi and his defenceless family, is to bust in, and clip everyone of their captors. Period. That's the only option I have.

Now then:

Warpengi....what do you want me to do?

You KNOW what groups like CPT stand for (you just quoted them--"we reject the use of violent force to save our lives, even in the middle of a violent conflict situation"), but what do YOU say to this scenario?

Yes, you think long and hard about that philosophy and whether you want to adhere to it. And then maybe you can talk about "busting a gut" for others. Spare me, ok?

See, I have a surprise for you: In answer to your question, I DID go to work today, just like all the other days for the last 20 years. By virtue of what I do, I take pride in the fact that I assist in doing my bit to make my community safer, often times while I'm in harms way. I do not "lend tacit support" to any "perpetrators". My priority is the safety, security and well-being of the citizenry in my own goddamn backyard. If you want to take on all of the worlds ills like some of the misguided zealots on this thread, who sit in their parents' basements spouting gobble-dee-gook on a computer, while having seen precious little of the real world around them and have even fewer PRACTICAL notions of how to make it better (like CPT).....then be my guest.

Either way...go back and read my last post.

CAREFULLY.

Canuck1

Oh, and Mr. Truman Green?

As far as the "competing parts of your conciousness" goes?

My suggestion to you (as a cure to this fragmentation of your psyche) to make you whole and complete again......

Is for you to drink heavily, and light up a doobie.

Only then will you have a chance at being a Jedi.

Amen.

canuck1

All I can say is I would never, under ANY circumstances, want you in my house or around my wife and children.

Canuck 1 says: "Look I DO hope these folks somehow make it home in one piece, even in spite of their moronic decision to go in the first place." To which I say, "Why didnja say that before." Also, your own goddamned back yard is shared by all the other 6 billion or so on this planet, Canuck 1. For some reason, you don't seem to realize this. I wonder if your belief that "these people" aren't really interested in democracy begs the question: So why bother invading their country, killing 30,000 or so of them and pretending that it's all for their own good? Canuck 1, I know you gotta use force sometimes. I'm a big fan of Solomon in Ecclesiastes where he claims there's a time for everything. But Jeez, brute force should maybe be the last resort eh. I congratulated everybody but you after I read your post because, although I tried hard, I just couldn't find any empathy in your comment.

And, oh yeah, Canuck 1 I just read where you say, "And they could turn Baghdad into a sand dune to piss on for all I care." Now Mr. Canuck, when you write stuff like that how do you expect people to react?--especially in a forum full of people whom you would gladly term "bleeding heart liberals" anyway. I think you need to be a bit more reflective about your own intentions. I really hated your first post. It just seemed lacking in insight, and I doubt that it's really you, anyway.

Interesting feedback.

I'll start with Warpengi:

Not the point. But I think you saw MY point. Otherwise, you would have had the testicular and intellectual fortitude to simply answer the freakin' question. The fact that you didn't....speaks volumes. And I think we both know that.

Truman:

Look at most of the posts around here, will ya? 98% of them try to assume this pseudo-quasi-intellectual personae, and hey---that's no big woop. But they lack ANY....oh, what the hell's the word I'm looking for.....a certain tongue-in-cheekness? A sense of humour? Caustic or not? Or how about just something really INTERESTING or CAPTIVATING to say? Instead, it's this dry, boring "I've-read-this-book-and-think-this-author-is-peachy-keen-and-I'll-find-all-the-answers-in-Vol.I" kinda mentality.

I disagree with you: my backyard encompasses THIS nation, and its citizens. It's a very noble vision to believe in this "we are the world and we are one" belief, but until we focus our efforts in our OWN homes (because charity does begin THERE, you know), then yes, there will be nations who invade other nations for spurious reasons.....all because their OWN houses are not in order; for if they were, then they wouldn't have had the where-with-all to pull off that crap. See the pattern? So before we start fretting about things on a global scale, lets fix our own problems first, then go from there. The rest WILL follow suit. Guaranteed.

And yes, the Iraqi's do NOT want, nor appreciate, nor expect or know what to DO with democracy. How many times would you like history to prove this? Read my post again. I think history's on my side on this one (and against the Americans). And why they invaded Iraq? I dunno, but whatever the reason, it was bogus. So now what? Are we supposed to threaten the Yanks with our pine trees? C'mon.

And no, I wouldn't use the term "bleeding heart liberals" to describe the folks around here. Hell, I even have a smidgeon of a liberal slant myself. No, I'd say most of the types around here are......clueless. They talk a lot, but say nothing; they might be intelligent, but not very smart; they look, but still can't see, and worse yet....when someone (like me) comes along, and calls them on it, they commit an even greater faux pas: they listen.....but do not hear.

Have a SWELL day.

Canuck1

"The demands of internal growth are incomparably more important to us...than the need for any external expansion of our power."

---Alexander Solzhenitsyn

There now. You see, Truman? I've given something to our blithely ignorant eggheaded friends in these parts something to digest (not to mention something that illustrates what I've been saying all along).

Now THERE'S gratitude for ya.

Sheesh.

Canuck1

See what I mean, eh, Canuck. You DO have a lot more to say than, "turn Baghdad into a sand dune." You're coming along very nicely. And thanks for the Solzhenitsyn.

But I did answer your question despite your abuse and hopelessy naivety. Just because you could not understand the answer doesn't negate my response.

Perhaps one day when you have lived a few years and gained a little wisdom you will have some sympathy for others.

Don't think we don't know your a troll. I think pretty much everyone here does. Sometimes it is fun to poke the troll with a stick and watch it rant and rave. It does get boring pretty quickly though. How long before everyone is bored with you? I guess that's what your trying to find out.

Hey Warp:

Just because I get on here, and point out the nonsensical stupidity of folks like yerself doesen't mean I "rant and rave". I just tell it like it is. You're free to take potshots at the messenger as much as you like, but it still doesen't change a blessed thing. Boy, you is STILL a misguided, spineless jellyfish, who has a yellow streak a mile wide running up his back (cripes, if ya can't answer a simple question, I pity a family in your care you may have to one day defend with decisive action).

Just to make it easier on a "troll" like myself, could ya please cut-and-paste your so-called "answer"?

'Cuz it just ain't there.

And as far as the "wisdom" sermon goes, I've usually found that those who claim to espouse on it....actually have NONE of it. And if I choose not to express "sympathy" for others who do stupid things when they should know better, I'd say my empathetic standards are very healthy.

"Boring"??? Me????

Uh, no.

Well Slick, judging by the posts here of late, here are the top five offenders who have done nothing but contribute incessently BORING, hackneyed, and pointless drivel (without even so much as a wiff of a colorful or fresh edge to it):

1. Biscotti

2. Coyote

3. Warpengi

4. Clubnut

5. Anyone else who doesen't have enough guts to face up to some common sense, or to even challenge me on a single, salient point with a solid counter-argument.

Glad I could oblige ya, Mr. Truman. It's nice to know that in this day and age, that that Masters Degree in Political Science came in handy for SOMETHING, besides waving it around pretending that it actually is WORTH something. It's like so many things in any university: they teach a whole lotta things.....except how to actually earn a decent living, and abide by common sense.

Have GREAT day (and that includes YOU, Warpengi, ya cowardly swine. HA!)

Canuck1

Earlier in this thread Lynn quoted Arundhati Roy. Her name is attached this appeal for the release of the hostages:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1202-15.htm

The text of the appeal ought to dispel some of the misconceptions about the CPT.

Also noteworthy that Palestinian activists have called for their release:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/12/01/iraq-hostages051201.html

thanks for the links Biscotti. I have been saying it all along and the appeal says more clearly than I, the CPTer's knew what they were getting themselves into, had no illusions about the dangers and were witnessing the crimes of occupation rather than that of the resistance.