So now the progressively conservative and dissilusioned Liberal Green Party is at a crossroads.

Left or right?

Despite the soft environmental left perception many have of the Green Party, it has always been a party of the right on social and economic issues and I guess West Vancouver's Dennis Perry exemplifies that quite well.

He appears to be the typical new Green, former PCs lost in the woods or one-time Campbell Liberals who have given up on the convicted drunk driver.

All in all, I'd encourage more Perrys to step forward and acknowledge their pro-business agendas. Who knows, they might even attract a few fish farmers.

If nothing else it will bring clarity. Voters will realize the Greens are in fact soft Campbell Liberals with a centre-right flavour, but without the drunk driver's baggage.

Carole James ought to be happy.

The Green Party is having trouble getting its ducks in a row because its membership has this curious habit of actually believing in something other than getting in power. BC Liberals long ago abandoned policy as a unifying element, and that, along with a compliant, establishment-friendly media, got them into office. Let's face it: what do the Liberals represent, from a political point of view? Exactly.

I'd love to see the Greens acquire more power. But until the voting public tires of empty rhetoric, they are hamstrung by their own virtue.

For someone like me who voted for the Green Party last time, but is not a member, this article points to a disturbing trend.

When I think of the Green Party, I think of sustainability, and I don't like to think that corporations are sustainable. Creating and promoting an economic system where money and power are isolated in a small group of people (namely the shareholders) will prevent us (the people of this province) from solving our long term problems of poverty, crime, and quality living standards for all of us.

My inclination to vote for the Greens is based on the fact that I perceive them to be a more progressive thinking NDP party, but still maintaining the left leaning social values. Instead of supporting old labour thinking, Greens should be promoting innovative business opportunities that go beyond traditional union vs. mgmt (us vs. them, labour vs. corporation) mentality. To me that means co-ops, employee owned businesses, more equitable distribtion of resources, equal access to basics like health care and education.

Unfortunately, due to the length of the article, it doesn't entirely cover in detail a lot of the comments made by the party members here. Perhaps it's bit rash for myself or others to make sweeping assumptions about the Green Party based on a few quotes here and there.

Splinter groups always fail. Cripes, look at the Progressive Conservatives ...

Preston Manning (like the Greens) stomps off to form a pure new approach to government which he hopefully dubs Reform ... Reform behaves exactly like the old P.C.s and everybody is squabbling again ... so they morph as Alliance ... or was it the C.C.R.A.P. party then the Alliance ... and right now they are all (minus Presters & Deb Grey) back where they started, bruises, scars and all, as some sort of Conservative Party of Canada or, as they say, C.P.C.

Delightfully, C.P.C. was an acronym already taken, held for many years, by the Communist Party of Canada. The Communists objected strenuously, on the grounds that they didnèt want to be humiliated by having anyone confuse them with the Conservatives! The Communists took it to court, but the courts ... well, ref. B.C.T.F.

BCM' I hardly think the Conservative Party of Canada as a splinter group. Last I heard, they were the Official Opposition in Parliament. Hace you watched CPAC lately ? They are the ones trying to unseat the Liberal Party of Canada from power. This corrupt group has to go. The PC's are our best hope. The NDP cannot and never have been able to get over 20% of the vote.
I would like to see the Fedral NDP get more votes. Every extra vote they get comes at the expense of ths Liberals.
Go Jack go.

Tupper is correct. The Greens cannot be both a fringe party and a 'political force'.

Although longtime environmental activits McCrory cites a specific number of votes, in the 200,000 this isn't the primary starting point for the party.

From 2001 to 2005 the party's popular support has declined, and still no seats in the legislature. The Green's continue to use other explanations for a lack of performance.

If you want to compete as a bona fide party you must grow. This does not mean that principles go out the window.

Most voters do not fully understand the nuances of policy development. They most readily understand symbols.

Ms. Carr has done great things for the environment and for the Green Party, but in order to attract more support the Greens need a completely different symbol, that is a new leader who can support an environmental wing, and a corporate wing that supports global cost accounting. Ms. Carr may believe in and comprehend the latter however she cannot properly represent it to voters.

I had my eyes opened during the last campaign about the Greens. I have voted for them in the past, but anyone looking closely can see they already have become a right wing party with the exception of a few older members. Also, their behaviour rivaled the BC Libs, including Ms Carr's grand lie, looking right into the camera and saying that there isn't any difference between the Liberals and the NDP. I would never vote for them again.

redrivergirl-With all due respect, the Greens are not a right wing party by any stretch of the imagination. The Greens are not a middle of the road party by any stretch of the imagination.

It is quite possible that the Greens are right wing to some people who are very very left wing.

I would speculate that if we randomly asked British Columbians if it was their opinion that the Green Party "was a right wing party" not one per cent of any size sample would agree.

The federal Greens have been taken over by disillusioned members of the old PC Party long time ago, who didn't like Harper and their takeover by Reform. Or whatever they happen to be called today.

Therefore, the takeover of the provincial wings is a natural step to get away from under the shadows of Mulroney, Manning and Harper.

The same thing as when the Socred faithful bought the BC Liberal Party for Campbell, which, in reality is a branch of the pathetic Reform/Conservative gang.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Robbins, I agree with you that most think it is a left leaning party. I certainly thought so when I voted for them. During the last election I peered more closely, primarily because they were exhibiting behavour not unlike the BC Liberals in their discourse and found to my surprise that they are no longer a 'leftish' party. I think the Libertarians have taken over and in my view, Libertarians are right wing, just dressed up a little.

If one wants to advance a cause one has to be strategic and timely about it. The old tree huggers and Greenpeace types are basically the real conservatives of the Green party. They are the founding men and women who have brought (I won't call this a cause as much as it is an imperative) to the forefront of people's conciousness. There is no better environment in North America (perhaps Oregon) to advance a true understanding of sustainability (and appreciation and understanding) of the environment as a central element of everyone's life than in B.C.

The next leader of the Green Party has to have a pedigree of economic understanding. The precise prototype is Dennis Perry. This fellow doesn't have a few years picking up garbage off the higway on his environmental resume, he has 25 years. He is easily as Green as green grass as he is successful.

The Green Party needs a Dennis Perry as leader.
It needs a Board of Directors of a couple of Dennis Perry like people, an Adriane Carr, Andrea Reimer and a recruit from Hollywood.

You now have the beginnings of a political force. Now all that is required is a better evolved fundraising machine, less ideological public relations, some consultants (who actually concentrate on success and not ideology alone), and the Green-Conservationist Party is well on its way to 20%

Simple-like apple pie-

It is more than quite possible -- I believe that it is the truth!

I just looked over the Green's 2005 platform (http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/GreenBook2005.pdf) and was hard-pressed to find evidence that this was a right-wing party. The closest that I could come was finding that they have dropped support for abrogating NAFTA and other international trade agreements.

Sad, but true. For example, many well-meaning greens don't realize the unintended negative consequences of, for e.g., municipal tree cutting bylaws -- that charging people to remove trees provides a collossal disincentive to ever plant a new tree on your property. (Moral people may continue to plant trees, but good policy is about encouraging people who are not so moral to do moral things) Many reach for the symbol of tree protection without realizing that the bylaw they are supporting may, in fact, have the opposite effect.

I'm thrilled that the Greens are looking to become a more centrist party. If they are serious about sustainable development, they need to find a way to harness the dynamism of the market, rather than fight it every step of the way. Green policy, properly conceived, could be great for business because the transition to a green economy will require greener infrastructure, transportation, agricultural systems, etc. Although the current legislative context can encourage socially and environmentally malign behaviour among corporations, this does not need to be so: corporations could be a great way for people to work together on big projects, they are not an evil in themselves.

If the greens remain on the leftie fringe, they'll always be fighting it out with the NDP, rather than building their own constituency.

Another thing...

If the 'right wing' didn't promote them to split the left vote, they wouldn't exist right now. They an inordinate amount of media time for that reason. Another party with the same percentage of the vote would not get that coverage.

Anyway, I'm sure there are people with a lot of integrity who are Green Party voters and members. Personally the NDP aren't my natural ideological home. But, they are the only hope to stop this fascistic scourge on humanity, in our own back yard, if not elsewhere.
Without strong labour we do not have a democracy, no matter what one thinks about the merits of the labour movement. It is this basic tenet, (plus social justice issues and issues of human dignity) which motivate me in my support of labour.

Most of the people fighting this movement/pretend gov't right now are the people who will survive regardless, because they are the people who can think and are aware. They are mostly fighting for others and for justice and if necessary will land on their feet. Unlike some supporters of the Liberals who won't be able to withstand our new social structure that the very gov't on whose behalf they are fighting, are trying to create.

"The closest that I could come was finding that they have dropped support for abrogating NAFTA and other international trade agreements."

Steve, this in and of itself, will destroy the environment completely.

Anyway, I don't want to get into it with the Green Party. Been there, done that. They have a lot of fervent supporters and they're entitiled to their opinions.

redriver girl-I suspect (although the discourse may not reflect this) that we are probably more likely to be closer in agreement on this, we have simply decided to peer at the apple from slightly different perspectives.

I am careful to agree with you that Libertarians are right wing. I have such a difficult time making that connection (although this is manifest anecdotal), however I agree in the sense that Libertarians believe in less government, to the extreme no government.

However no government equals anarchy (in the true political sense,not in the bastardized context of that term), and without question the most important anarchists in history were more left leaning-many of them women.

I believe one has to mold the best that these different ideologies has to offer without diluting the strengths of the underlying resolve that those ideologies represent.

There is no doubt in my mind that modern conservative thinkers (and I mean conservatism in the classical theoretical and philisophical sense) can integrate with environmentalists to create an intellectually and practically sound party that would serve the needs of the BC public.

However to accomplish this all of the pretenses that accompany the robes of ideology would have to dropped ( ie defense mechanisms), in order to find all of the common fabric and thread. This can never be achieved if the context of the discussion begins at left right, liner type continuum(s).

I am certainly not suggesting this of you, I am hoping to take this early discussion with you to point out that you and I could probably find a lot more common ground than might on the surface seem apparent in the early going here.

I agree, Robbins. And, I understand that not all conservatives are 'dumb'. Many understand that pollution will kill them too. And, in fact, many believe in conserving the environment as part of their 'conservatism' as well.

Many Conservatives are not Neo-Cons and we may be watching this play out in the US right now.

There are some conservatives like David Frum, and for old schoolers William Buckley, who underscore the bias of some observers who would argue the best intellectual minds are in fact conservatives.

I think (and I am desperately trying not to be an apologist here), that it is sometimes easier to make activist arguments, and thus appear more intellectual (a good emotional argument makes an intellectual argument more seductive).

However I do not think it is fair to move on any stereotypes such as Conservatives are dumb, Liberals are phoney, and Socialists are lazy, because at best circular reasoning prevails upon the arguments.

I am conservative yet when I speak about different more progressive taxes on estates, most conservatives I know go crazy. These may be some of the 'dumb' conservatives you speak of. When I speak of society (particularly some men) who are not ready for same sex, and that this is still very problematic-and a liberal tells me this is homophobic but refuses to comment on the plethora of murders and beatings to gay people than I think of 'dumb' phoney liberals.

When I ask proponents of equality, economically and otherwise what the solution is and they tell me bigger government, I ask myself is an argument which suggests the potential corruption is better legislated with rifles in hand, than in faceless unaccountable corporations,or is this a sign that the noble socialist model is in fact stereotypically poorly thought out or to coin your determination dumb?

You are quite right that not all conservatives are dumb, but in fairness it is probably best said that subscribers of any ideological generalities best watch out for the Village Hamelin.

Good point, Redrivergirl -- I think our common dependence upon the environment (clean air, water, food, etc) is the Green's best hope for building a broader coalition. Anecdotally, I know & work with many "right wing" people, who are unabashedly pro-business, who also care deeply about the environment and the community. "Our Common Future" has become a cliche, but it still symbolizes an important political truth.

I agree Steve, that not all Conservatives are right wing reactionaries, or Neo-Cons's (like Frum - brilliant? I don't think so, Robbins)

Most of my family are Conservatives.
My brother supports the BC Liberals! ARG
They're not traitors, though.

redrivergirl-thanks for the subsequent platform.

Yes Frum and here is the reason. It is far more difficult in my opinion to properly articulate political realism, than political idealism. (I admit however, it is far more difficult to achieve the goals of politica idealism). The two best historical contrasts I can think of in U.S. terms would be Nixon for the former, and Carter the latter.

David Frum's work regarding France's strategic interest in the Middle East particularly as this relates to Iraq, and the U.S. invasion of that country, amidst the easier discourse (retail) of weapons of mass destruction arguments, was a difficult discussion to have.

I would have like to see that particular discussion with (yes thats right) Noam Chomsky, but it never came to past.

So based on the criteria that I have provided myself (self-serving) or not, I can reasonably say 'brilliant' without feeling compromised.

Do you care to dilute?

I think Frum is a spoiled brat. He grew up benefiting from his mother's position at the CBC. He grew up with every advantage the 'nanny' state could give him and every advantage his privileged position within that nanny state gave him as well. Yet, he turned to a psuedo-intellectual, morally bankrupt, poor excuse for a philosophy, rather than come to terms with his own demons.

I'm sorry, Robbins. I don't mean to be disrespectful to you. I respect your right to your beliefs and the way you choose to live your life as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's well-being. It is just that I have so much contempt for that sophmoric excuse for an unbelievable sophmoric belief system, Neo-Conservatism, mixed with Ayn Rand's sophistic philosopy that I find it difficult to attribute brilliance to anyone who ascribes to it, with the exception perhaps of those who may have flirted with it in their first year at university, had lots of fun discussing it on line etc and moved on!

These philosophies may be entirely enjoyable to discuss late into the night, to feel fired up about over expresso across from some fellow student poets and anarchists scrunched into their chairs smoking Gitans. It isn't for the real world of people and babies and pets and sunsets and falling in love and hoping for your child's future and taking your grandmother out to lunch. It isn't for those in the highest levels in the White House, nor is it for those in our government charged with the awesome RESPONSIBILITY of other people's very lives!

"All politicians who seek to justify repressive legislation claim that they are responding to an unprecedented threat to public order. And all politicians who cite such a threat draft measures in response which can just as easily be used against democratic protest. No act has been passed over the last 20 years with the aim of preventing anti-social behaviour, disorderly conduct, trespass, harrassment and terrorism which has not also been deployed to criminalise a peaceful public engagement in politics."

George Monbiot, The Guardian, 4th October, 2005.

Excuse me, but if Robbins is a research group, what the heck is he or she doing on this thread repeatedly beating the drum for the conservative CanWest point of view? or any point of view? As in Greens good, these others bad. How neutral is that? Just asking.

(Not that The Strategic Counsel doesnt hold a similar rightwing conservative point of view ... but Allan Gregg doesnt flame off with pointedly political argument, either.)

In fact, polling groups are IMHO increasingly suspect for manipulating the votes one way or another, then bawling from the rooftops, via a compliant press, that everybody (ha ha) thinks thus or so. Humbug.

Good point BC Mary.

Our seemingly new resident polster came to Tyee tossing tidbits of pollling data into various commentaries and offering somewhat puzzling comments that often seemed difficult to link to the issue being discussed.

Robbins appears to have recently dropped that vague demeanor and has launched into specific polling questions along with commentary you might expect if he were a politician rather than a scientist of public opinion research.

Rather odd, it seems. It's almost as if another person has taken up the Robbins pen name.

Murray Dobbin wrote an interesting article on the Green Party in a recent Walrus. There was some lively response to the article in the subsequent letters column.

I do confess that I am curious as to why Jim Harris was chosen as national leader, and even more perplexed as to why green voters would choose to support Jim over an NDP leader whose environmental achievements are much more impressive.

(I am troubled by reports that Honeywell, a defense contractor, was among Harris's motivational speech clients.)

redrivergirl-I think you are personalizing the Frum thing. I don't think the fact that he is spoiled is so relevant to my assertion why I thought his conservatism, or at least his position at the time his book came out was brilliant.

BC Mary-There is no one who is aware of my or my group's work that would dare say we are with CanWest. We spent weeks and months on the air with our polling, and were quite happy to remove ourself from the mainstream press, including CanWest who we have characterized on many occasions as corrupt. (Please see Vote for Pedro) under our BC polls. Other than the Tyee, there has been no group more critical of the mainstream press and pollig than we are.

allan-polling is one half art and one half science. We are convinced and we have sufficiently proven that we are able to prognosticate with amazing accuracy, particularly definitive future political events. My group, and my financial partners have long since stopped being concerned about that. We feel no inclination to model the mainstream polling groups particularly one like the Strategic Counsel, whose numbers regarding BC politics you undoubtedly have not seen. Remember, no-one expected Rock'N'Roll to evolve the way it did, and things change. People construct different and sometimes better mousetraps.

With over 40,000 email contacts in this province and across the country, and significantly more in the United States, we continue to manifest a great deal of influence on matters relating to political, social and economic life. We are not concerned with individual characterizations of our polls or our polling, and we absolutely are not interested in conforming to the essence of academic standards, which we have come to believe is all too often simply tantamount to CV hitchhooking for a government grant (and we have plenty of good Phds') and if the Tyee doesn't my polling they can edit them out. (You can take their survey and simply ask them to get rid of the polls-maybe some others have done so already).

We have many readers to our polling from around the world-

We like the blogging idea at Tyee, because the Tyee is 'off' the mainstream, so this is consistent with where are business model is evolving from. The polls are relevant if you can read between the lines (Kennedy said to understand politics you need to understand poetry-that's the art).

Most of the blogs are my own personal opinion based on over 20,000 interviews I have personally conducted over the past three years, however some of the blogs are a direct result of conversations about issues that I have had with my advisors, and are only my rendition of those converations.

You folks particularly under this piece have given me alot of information which is what I was hoping to gleen by coming here.

One thing is for certain though, and this comes from the entire group. Adriane Carr has no more chance of getting 5% in the next provincial election than Christy Clark has of winning Vancouver Mayor.

I thank you in advance.

No, Robbins, but it is relevant to my assessment about his intelligence.

That is interesting about Carr and 5%. Maybe others had the same impression as I, during the last election.

ROBBINS Sce Research said: "I am careful to agree with you that Libertarians are right wing. I have such a difficult time making that connection"

I believe in North America (unlike Europe, where I'm told Libertarian means Libertarian Socialist or Anarchist) a Libertarian is generally considered to be someone who believes in the virtues of an unfettered free market. From my perspective that makes it about as far to the right as one can get, economically speaking. I suppose one could reasonably disagree, since the definitions of "left" and "right" are usually vague and personal. Still...

ROBBINS Sce Research also said: "no government equals anarchy (in the true political sense,not in the bastardized context of that term)"

I'm not sure your definition of anarchism is one an actual anarchist would agree with. Most of the anarchist thought I've been exposed to favours a highly organized society. No "government" as we understand it today, but certainly many highly structured institutions, councils, etc.

Have you ever attempted even a cursory examination of either Libertarianism or Anarchism? Talking about the "true political sense" of a word when you don't appear to actually know what it means kind of looks bad.

-Travis

P.S. Saying, "without question the most important anarchists in history were more left leaning" is sort of like saying "many of the most important fascists in history have tended to lean to the right."

I think that this entire discussion misses the point. (And excuse me, but how did anarchism vs. libertarianism and David Frum get into this?)

The Green Party of BC ran an incompetent campaign in 2005, and I agree with the prediction made here that unless some drastic changes are made, the GP will get 5% or less in 2009.

Why do I use the word "incompetent"? Take a look at the "news archive" on greenparty.bc.ca. Most of the articles there from the election campaign have titles like "LEADER'S TOUR Day 25". Of the few that address issues, there's on May 4 critical of the RAV Line.

Now, the RAV Line may well be a boondoggle, but why was the GP addressing this particular issue two weeks before the election? Instead of issues like salmon farming, the Port Mann Bridge widening, or marijuana legalization?

The answer is, the GP hired Don Toffaletto as their "Communications Director" for the election campaign. One of Toffaletto's previous efforts was the Re-think RAV Coalition.

Thanks for your insight and information about the Greens, Karl Rover.

The reason why other topics are on the boards is that it is a discussion and one idea gives birth to others.

Hey Travis, and Robbins, Libertarianism and Anarchism are really wonderful subjects to look into. They are also very interesting ideologies on which I wish more politicians based their principles.

Anarchy, means "without government", but anarchism has very little to do with that notion with the exception of the black anarchists, who aren't really anarchists, but are nihilists. Anarchism, is a move to systems of government without power structures, and within that there is a broad movement. From the classical Anarchists, such as Bakunin, who pushed for the end of European nation states, to feminist Anarchists such as Emma Goldman, who looked to overthrow classical male dominated power structures.

But anarchism, is mainly the reduction of a central government into other forms. Their is anarchal syndicalism, which is basically a move to worker owned companies, to capital-anarchism which is closer to what many refer to as classical libertarianism. Libertarianism is not a system of government, but it is more the role of the individual within society. (Often referred to as Individualistic anarchism) It is a view that personal freedom is ultimate, and should not be taken away. Some take this to the extreme, and claim that taxes and other items are infringements of their personal freedoms, but this is in error, as many of us realize that taxes and safety net are in fact protections of freedoms. I would be one of the later, and but a consequentialist one at that.

As for which way the green party is shifting, the notion of left and right has always been too simplistic. But it is true, the Green party does attract libertarians and social anarachists (but not syndical anarchists who are fairly locked up with the NDP or Economic Libertarians, who go solely for the party that promises less taxes). Instead, its supporters are people who like neither big government, big unions, or big corporations. Some are people who are sick and tired of both of the major parties, and want to see alternatives in place. I think you'll see more "right wingers" in the Green Party now who have rejected the provincial Liberals, where as 2001, the Green Party had more "left wingers" rejecting the NDP. But again, these people are not the traditional left or right. Some are rejectionist, others are tradional "tree huggers and hippies", others are new age capitalists, while others are economically minded but see sustainability as a form of investment.

I would personally hope the green part would move towards a more positive step. They opposed the Olympics, RAV, and other development projects, but have seemed to be without a real positive policy since the free your vote campaign. I'm still not sure why they opposed RAV (except as Karl mentioned above), when above or below ground transit is the most ecologically friendly, as it causes the least traffic congestion (light rail would not work on a north to south route in Vancouver).

I think that much of the confision about Green politics stems from attempts to squeeze them into the old right-left business-labour humancentric* paradigm.

(* yes I just made a word up, anthromoporphic is a rediculous word that I probably can't spell correctly anyways)

Green politics operates on the totally different human-biosphere paradigm that recognizes and appreciates the fact that the world is not simply there for us to plunder and that our very existance is closely tied to the land and its health.

That is why Carr said that the NDP and Liberals were exactly the same. They both have a vested interest in unfettered consumerism and reckless extraction of natural resourses. They both buy into the language of destruction as well**.

[** there is nothing 'disposable' about my income; the world is not developed or developing , it is sustainable or unsustainable (exploited or exploiter too for that matter), and the entire conception that we should do all of this frenetic making, selling, buying then disposing in the name of increasing some phantom 'standard of living' is nothing more than clever economists from Chicago mascarading as bad marketers... but I digress]

On this matter a large proportion of industry, commerce and labour are consistantly in a shocking state of denial. It is vital that all parties in this issue be at the table if real change has any chance at all. Partisan views within the party that Greens should lean left or right only serve to alienate much needed future partners.

The pressure for Green Parties to 'pick a side' and buy into a paradigm that thier politics clearly rejects is a constant threat. What is vital to the survival of our species, is that society shift to the Green paradigm, not that Greens start navel gazing over 'the state of health-care' or whether or not they are seen as being 'pro-business' or 'pro-labour' enough for a few overinflated pundits and pollsters.

But what good are values if you are unable to gain enough power to put them into action? Well, that is an eternal political question. In response I would have to say that if the Greens get into a game of trying to reshape themselves to fit the electorate as it is now they risk becoming irrelevant when they are needed the most.

One way or another, through disaster, nessesity or(hopefully)a dramatic shift in awareness the electorate will catch up to Green values, hopefully this party will still have enough credability to be taken seriously.

Thanks for the illumination,dan and deja.

However, the Greens seem to have asked your question, "But what good are values if you are unable to gain enough power to put them into action?", by abandoning their values. Also, deja, Ms Carr, was trying to get NDP votes when she looked into the camera and lied. It seems as if the Greens have lost their way and will do anything to try to get elected. While I understand their frustration, their actions lost my vote.

Oops, I don't mean to mitigate the thank you with however...

Also, "...Greens seem to answered the question...", not asked.

red river girl, its a tough story, but believe it STV for BC 2008, will be in full force. "How to keep your values and still get elected," is a story rarely told under pluralities.

Dan, respectfully, you and I have been here before. I know you like stv. I see it as riddled with big problems, such as the potential for fraud. And, lord knows with the bunch running things right now, we don't need to move to diabolt at this time. We need an easily checked system where we can easily follow our vote. We have this right now. Also, it doesn't do anything at all to address the crisis we ARE having, (all of us, not just the Greens) which is the corporate take-over, and corporate lobbying with huge amounts of money. We need campaign finance reform for that.
Nor, does it address the kickbacks that surely are happening with our Liberal MLA's - if their behaviour is any indication. Only our RCMP can do anything about that at this time.

And, finally it really isn't accessible to the average voter and will turn voters off. With our voting turn outs we don't need that.

Now if the Greens stuck to their original plan for parlimentary reform, they may have garnered my interest. Instead they changed mid-stream and endorsed a bogus system so they can get a few seats. Regardless of what is right and what is necessary at this time to save our province and to save our democracy. So, in my view, they sold out to gain some future power.

I know you feel differently. I have heard every argument for STV there is, including Preston Mannings great one he gave the day of the election and that is that the EAST thinks you're too dumb to understand it. There's a reason the Fraser Institute loves it.

Sorry. I'll be voting no and I bet most others will as well because they'll have had time to examine it.

I don't think that would be true for other forms and the Greens should have stuck to their guns about it. And, would have had a much better chance at change. (just my view - please don't sic the STV squad on me, I know it's supporters absolutely love it, but my eyes glaze over :-))

I do hear your eloquent comment that "...it is a story rarely told..." I agree.

You know, Dan, the Greens and the NDP should have gotten together last election. I read they were talking. But, I don't know the details of that talk. IMO the NDP should have given the Greens ONE riding and the Greens should have put all their resourses into getting that riding.

I really believe the Greens do need to win a seat. They need to get some experience in gov't. From what I was reading on different boards it seemed as if the Greens wanted more. They haven't earned it yet. If the NDP didnt' offer the greens one riding then they were fools and I would be upset top hear that. But, if the Greens held out for an unrealistic goal, then in my view, they are hurting the environment and hurting us all by their behaviour. Having said that, they have every right to be Green and not compromise, but I don't think it's admirable to try and change our whole system to something even worse just to get some power.

I'm very tired and hope this makes sense. Please ignore the tone if it seems harsh. I don't mean it that way. Just tired.

resources, not resourses.

To clarify, I feel the same way about the NDP if it was they who wouldn't give one seat. But, I recognize the Greens aren't 'leftish' anymore.

Night.

Under Harcourt, redrivergirl, the chance for a rapprochement with the NDP's "green rump" was very real, as was the chance to let some light into BC's arcane forest policies.

When, under the prompting of the unions they panicked (bingogate)and booted him out, installing the IWA's favourite, Glen Clark - and later the anti-environmental Dan Miller!!- any hopes to bring Greens on-side went out the window.

Until it can demonstrate otherwise, any chance of attracting genuinely green votes is nil.

But, they faced something different with the Campbell gov't and needed to get together. But, the Greens appear to be no longer progressive except is SOME environmental issues. I did read they were talking before the last election, but couldn't come to an agreement.

Anyway, probably under the rhetoric, we all, with the exception of the neo-fascists have more in common than not.

Peace.

More green party bashing by NDPers

Green Party bashers indeed. But what's new for Tyee!!
Just for the record, the election of 2001 saw many disgruntled NDP supporters vote Green, swelling the Green vote to 12%. Those folks went home in 2005 in an effort to boot Campbell from office. The BC Green party still received 9%, despite the best efforts of NDP to be "green" and to scare voters with the old split the vote scenario.(gee, wasn't it Jack Leighton that was telling his supporters not to buy into the split the vote scare in the Federal election) Nine percent happens to be close to the largest percentage of Green party voters in the world (Germany 8%, New Zealand 5%). That 9% is rock solid and will not dissipate despite the fantasies of NDP dreamers. In fact, Greens will continue to hold the balance of power in the next election and deprive the NDP of government. You better get used to it.

I wasn't Green bashing. I was posting my observations. Thank you for confirming them.

Carr wins 100% approval as leader

No surprise here at the results..Greens in BC are terminally myopic.
Endorsing A Carr to continue running the party guarantees numerous breakdowns along the road to the unattainable goal of electoral relevance, culminating in a fiery crash into the tinder dry forest of BC politics..burning everything in it's path into ashes only to be quickly forgotten as a self centered exercise in narcissism.

Of course as a fundraiser they could always bottle their bathwater and sell it to gullible supporters.

signed: an NDP supporter who tried to reason with the Greens and was met with the blank stares of the terminally vain and capricious who indulge in masturbatory fantasies of electoral grandeur.

Hello everyone !
A former very active BC Green here.

I've always wanted to (especially since 2001) get an electoral coalition between the Greens and NDP. I think the promise of one seat (Sunshine Coast)and maybe stepping aside in a couple of more ridings (West Vancouver and Gordo's seat) by the NDP would be a reasonable offer...however in political parties it's winner take all or nothing ! North America is especially bad for this mindset...no compromise/no coalition making (except at the municipal level sometimes).

At the local level in Richmond I worked very hard to build bridges with other progressives. I was able to work with city councillors Harold Steves and Linda Barnes on many issues from 2001 onwards. In the 1999 municipal election the Richmond Greens build a coalition with a centre-left group (Team Richmond).

However, at the provincial and federal levels I don't see much willingness by the Greens to build coalitions. Not that the NDP has always been welcoming either. Too many egos and personalities on both sides that prevent the forging of links. Therefore, the local level is where there is the most support for coalition building.

Furthermore, in my opinion the Greens need new leadership as they seem to be spinning their wheels right now. Adrianne Carr has done some good things for the party but we are going backwards right now so someone with fresh ideas is needed urgently before the next election.

As for me: I think I will join the Work Less Party when I return to Canada. I like to have fun and to raise important issues that are neglected. The Work Less Party seems the best avenue for this now.

Kevan Hudson
Green Candidate in Richmond
Federal - 1993,1997, 2001
Provincial - 1996, 2001
Municipal - 1999, 2002

I think that the Green Party is losing its focus and in desperation is trying to attract the unsustainable Right vote.

I agree with an earlier posted who was concerned that by trying to be business friendly and attractive to corporations and their shareholders the party is abandoning sustainability at least sustainability that is more broad than ensuring that future generations will be able to degrade the planet at the same level we are currently, all with continued economic growth (5%)!

I wonder what all the Parties position or respone is to Peak Oil (yes bringing it up again! - I guess for every future hurricane we will see a specultaive jump in oil price!).

Yes there are egos involved-even ENGOs play office politics and I personally have experience with regards to egos when it comes to Adrian Carr (Western Canada Wilderness Committee days).

Good luck Greens, if you continue to try and attract the blindered economic vote you will not get mine!

I like the idea of being a voice for real, positive, sustainable change rather than focussing on being elected and all the behind the scenes subterfuge and wheeling and dealing!

Deja, you are a real gem.

Sure, the Green Party is something different all right.

So can I expect you to lead the renewed Green charge to oust the capitalist pigs who are currently exploiting everything from underaged child workers to homeless seniors in BC?

I doubt it VFM pal, because the very people you do your political camp with are the same ones who live off the backs of those children and elders, even though they likely use euphanisms such as "free-enterprise" to perfume the air a bit when they want to sound high-minded and humane.

At best, your party is one of a bunch of coupon-clippers who occassionally feel twinges of guilt when they cash in their corporate investment profit cheques.

Tell me Deja, where has your fearless leader and where has your fearlesss party been for the past month as this present government of Greens In A Hurry have been developing its final solution for a real teachers' union?

Your "Liberal Light" party didn't get any seats last election because it really wasn't meant to gain seats, but rather to negate as much as it could, the growing opposition to the dictatorship now running the show.

allan

Very pithy..and unfortunately, for all of us who can see the future unfold, too true.

I had dealings with Paul and Joe and Ms. Carr 15-17 years ago and was struck speechless by the juvenile antics they displayed in their quest for power. Instead of trying to work with other established environmental groups they went out of their way to alienate those groups. I also saw an ugly lust for power that I'm sure, to this day, has not abated.

Hi Cortez:

I had similar experince working for WC2 in Alberta with Paul and Adrian as overseerers!

How are NDP policys any different anyways? Take off the orange tinted glasses for a sec buddy and take a closer look! Lets see... arresting peaceful protestors at Clayquot, recklessly cutting welfare rates (to quote your esteemed Joy McFail when asked where the jobs were going to come from "They'll get jobs." That was the day that I quit supporting the NDP btw) How about spending the money that should have been going to aleviating poverty but instead went into creating an industy of 'job-shops' and make work programs? Remember Clark and Dosanjh launching a millitary campaign against First Nations for defending traditional rights and lands that were being denied them by, of all people, a millionaire absenetee American Rancher? Perhaps you could name a few NDP policys that they put into place to fight child labour or help those homeless seniors to help me out.

And really, who are NDPers to talk about the dangers of lurching to the right! Look at your party, it is hardly the vanguard of socialism that it was during CCF days. Instead we have a party that spent 10 years trashing the poor, homeless and sick in this province in a rather pathetic, and losing bid to woo "the middle" and demonstrate how "responsable" and "buisness friendly" they were. It is very telling that provincial NDPers like former party leader Dosanjh suddenly morph into federal Liberals.

Right, is this an attempt to prove my point? It truly does serve to illistrate how both labour and buisness have so much disrespect and contempt for each other that they can't even sit down and make a deal.

So we choose to remain respectfully silent on your labour dispute, just as silent as you all are on the immenent extinction of Pacific Salmon. There are Greens that are passionatly in support the teachers, there are others that aren't, just as there are NDPers and Liberals that are passionate about the environment, and others that couldn't give a rats ass. Is it so hard to believe that there are people out there who are more concerned about the earth than they are about what share of the spoils of an unsustainable exploitative economy they get?

There are already lots of parties to speak for workers and the bosses, it's time that the earth and its non-human creatures had one to speak for them. If you need a reminder why look into the roots and causes of the pine-beetle epidemic and why no-one wants to do anything about it...

freebear

Have you ever in your life witnessed such hunger for power as those two exhibit? I'll bet you had to scrub yourself with steel wool to escape the invisible yet pervasive grime of those encounters.

deja

The same media that has been kind to you ( a gift from gordo) also worked unstintingly to destroy the NDP while they were in power. This caused many problems within the ranks of the party. This unprecedented and relentless media attack was very demoralizing and devisive...and yes there was bad policy and more than a few mistakes as a result of this.

Concentrated media ownership is the biggest threat to democracy in the western world and the BC Greens owe a lot of their support to a media campaign designed to keep the ultra right wing, Republican Party connected BC Liberals in power and you think the Green Party,who has been co-opted by these US interests, are somehow going to SAVE the environment when the current US administration is hell bent on destroying it?

Your're either very gullible or just so consumed with being part of a movement that you can't connect the dots.

The BC Green Party, ostensibly formed to save the environment, are blindly and stupidly allowing it to be destroyed by splitting the left of center vote. Oh sure..you've also got right wingers on board..and they are laughing their asses off in private at the flaky tree hugger types in the party who don't have a clue what is going on.

I personally love hugging trees and spent over a year full time working in the movement in the '80s. In 1972 I was a core member of one of Polution Probe's first branches..I used to do the pickups from our recycle dropoff points in my 356B. I'm sympathetic to your cause but am appalled at how your leadership has failed you and the province.

From last elections Green Book:

"The Green Party of BC believes in the equal treatment of all workers, organized or non-organized, and their right to fair wages, equal pay for equal work, fair and healthy work conditions, and hours compatible with maintaining a good quality of life. The Liberals' cancellation of contracts and anti-labour legislation has turned BC into an international embarrassment, being cited by the United Nations' International Labour Organization as having labour practices that are sub-standard under international law. Good labour practices attract ethical investment and are necessary for BC to receive designation as a province that produces "fair trade" goods."

What a bunch of crazed Fascists eh!

I have a hard time taking anything that you might have to say seriously when you start off with more of this baseless conspiracy theory that you are all so fond of. Now the Greens are 'controlled' by US Republicans?

This theory is a non-starter.

The Green Party cost the socialist NDP Party the election by 'splitting' naturally socialist votes from them. That makes them all a bunch of neo-fascist that are in cahoots with the Liberals and thier Republican 'masters'.

non sequitur

n 1: a reply that has no relevance to what preceded it 2: (logic) a conclusion that does not follow from the premises

You lost the election. It is no-ones fault but your own. We call that personal responsability, which is just one of the values that we hold that most NDP apparatchiks just don't seem to get.

Its the Greens fault, its the medias fault, the people are too stupid to know whats best for them (see Lenin, follow up with the environmental record of the USSR)...

Policys are not mistakes. The policys of the NDP and organized labour have alienated environmentalists and now we're gone, deal with it.

And to continue...

What I really find astounding is that the Greens are the only ones putting forward the kind of policys that should actually be the bread and butter of a true labour party.

Where has the NDP been? Its been nearly 100 years since labour fought for the 8 hour work week and better working conditions. If only organized labour was half the force for social justice that it once was! I actually had a Union man say that giving money to the United Way demonstrated thier commitment to social justice! Since when is charity work going to do anything other than enable the perpetuation of inequity? Leave the charity to bored guilty upperclass diletants and get your asses in the streets and fight for structural change! Do you really expect to live off 100 year old exploits forever?

It's amazing to see the teachers finally putting some honor and balls back into the labour movement, but where were you for the poor when the Liberals attacked us, what about the disabled, was the $6 training wage not worth a fight? That hit me and other marginal service workers hard, all I heard were empty words 'six bucks sucks' but it was obvious they weren't going to do anything meaningful about it. 100 years ago Hayman would have been expected to go to jail over a slap in the face like that, instead he just dithers.

Was it a 'mistake' not to do this during the 10 years you had the power to do it, or do part time workers not matter because they don't have union cards?

I could go on and on... try actually reading the policys and actaully think about the distain that your party and movement has shown for the poor and marginalized of this province over the last 20 years. We're not so expendable now are we?

When I returned from europe after being a member of the German Green party and have had the opportunity to work on the USA Green party helping Ralph Nader campaign, I was thrilled to become a member of the 'green Party in BC.
Boy was I disappointed. The click, the racism, the right wing heavy handedness was too much. As Reimer told me: If you are not satisfied with the Green Party way of doing things there are other party out there."
The Green party has a right wing economic agenda and the difference between the Conservatives and the Green party is the environmental agenda. Social agenda is just not in the Green party radar. Privatization is not just a must is a reality for the "upper managemnt" members of the party.
Consumerism and economic growth goes hand in hand with the party politics.
After spending time with Green party members in the USA, coming to Canada to deal with the right wing take over of the green party it was an eye opener.
Green party Canada is another political disaster brought to you by disilusioned right wing pretending to have a gren streak in their "costumes".
The green party is in the throws of self destruction.
The changes needed in politics to avert destruction of babylony is not part of the green party.
The Canadian Green party doesn't exist. What exist is a figment of some clowns imagination.
The green party is dead. Let's place a wreath of flower at their buriel place in Vancouver.
Her address any one?

Well, the New Era Document is one example of how a policy book means nothing.

I'm sure there are some good people who belong to the party. But, they aren't the party they are pretending to be.

I really feel you need to win a seat so you can get your feet wet in gov't and be held to some accountability by a real constituency.

The pressure of the business lobby while the NDP gov't was in power, the pressure of the business lobby - threats and all, including phony credit rating manipulations - combined with a complacent and compliant media (thank you Helen Thomas) would have been too much for almost anyone.

They had to actually RUN a gov't unlike the BC Liberals who are carving up our resources, making "I'm such a big man" deals with other people's money and running a propaganda campaign. Or, the greens who can promise anything.

The Greens couldn't respond to the emergency our province was in the last election. Couldn't. Or wouldn't.

Just my observations as an outsider.

Deja, you obviously like to cherry pick your points, and good for you, but whistful passages such as 'treating everyone, union and non-union equally', don't even slow the rain.

Grow up buddy, your purity pimples are just too much.

You and your pals have been flitting around for about 20 years or so in BC telling we unwashed to get in line.

In the meantime, profits are up substantially for your high-end members(hey, think of the fundraiding potential), and a bunch of you are heading out for a hike this weekend so the environment must be in great shape, eh?

Frankly, I think the BC Green Party ought to be called for impersonating the European Green Party and feeding off the heart and guts of GreenPeace, the real environmentalists in BC, through name similarity.

BTW DEja, I don't wear orange coloured
glasses except when arguing with bitter lemons.

You people have no shame, you just lie...

wiefenbolgenm, or whatever your name is:

The German Greens are the furthest right Green Party in the world! The formed coalitions with the fresking Christian Democrats FCS. You are lying. Nader was not the Green candidate in 2004, why? Oh yeah, thats right, because he is not representative of green policy, he is... wait for it... TOO FAR RIGHT! That is why David Cobb was the Green candidate. And aren't we talking about the provincial greens anyways? Most true Greens think that the concept of a Federal Green Party for a country as big as Canada is ludicrous and fully agree that they have been co-opted. If you had ever sat down with even one Green in BC to talk about this you would have found that out almiost immediatley. The provincial party is what it is, a political party.

Oh, but Carol James (eyes glaze over in a dreamy trance) she's not in it for power, she's in it for the good of mankind. Such a pure and pious one I'm sure.

This site really is just so partizan and narrow minded. For a moment I once again thought that it was possible to have an intelligent debate here, instead its just bullying, insults and flat out lies.

Allen, you don't even make sense.. do you realize that?

Deja, you sound rather pathetic.

Well, respond to what I say. Or do you have no intelligent response other than insults and meaningless catch phrases you've obviously been practicing on Liberals?

Deja, to the best of my memory the Greens in the US recognized the threat and didn't run a presidential candidate to go against Kerry. That is why Nader didn't run for them.

No, they ran Cobb. I guess you two know each other. Still, my observation is the the BC Greens aren't a 'left' party any longer and also, they would be in obscurity if they were not being promoted by the Socreds to split the vote.

It's the duplicity I don't like otherwise, you have the right to your own party and its platform - obviously.

Deja, you have offered little to respond to.

Your grasp of labour relations in BC is beyond the pale.

Your suggestion that labour or the NDP had a responsibility to lift you, who is trying to kick them between the thighs, out of poverty is comical.

As I said earlier fellow, grow up.

You obviously benefited from an education so try to pressure those right-wingers posing as caring environmentalist in your party to stop depending on slave-wage employees in their real life to spin out profits for them.

That'll lift you bro.

So, what's wrong with pursuing something like this:
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Commentary/09...92105bohne.html

deja

Your quoting from the Green election platform slagging the Liberals does not negate the fact that the BC Liberals have been using the Greens... and in your leader's naked hunger for power at all costs she has allowed the party to be used. She would have a lot more credibility if she had vociferously slammed the Sun/Province for their blind support of the Liberals..but no, she wallowed in their hollow praise of her.

No one can dispute that powerful Republican Party interests are pulling our Premier's strings and Republican party strategists have been assisting Socreds and BC LIbs since at least the mid 1980's. Now you tell me how that doesn't add up to the GOP using the Greens to manipulate our political process. Your leadership knows the truth but the membership are totally naive and gullible.

Where were you when the NDP organized a 40,000 strong demonstration on the lawn of the leg? I was there with teachers, students and firefighters chanting 'six bucks sucks' in support of those whose lack of education or youth was being exploited by the Libs?

You were probably at a Green Party circle jerk getting loaded on Party bathwater.

Cortez:

Evey ENGO I worked for or volunteered for had some power hungry or big ego persons involved.

I would argue that any environmental group should be practicing what it preaches. Why should an ENGO have one leader/chair/director (whatever the title is) for 30 years? Would it not be more organic to essentially have new ideas and new effort at the helm? Their salaries are garnered from volunteers canvassing donations.

Deja:

I am not belittling the Greens, and please I do not have respect for the other political parties either. But as long as any prty, including the Greens, premise their platform on continued economic growth without recognizing limits, and an utter addiction and dependency on fossil fuels, it will not make a hill of beans difference (even if you can get methane gas from those said beans!).

It will take a crisis before any real change happens and I suspect it will be too late for most of us.

The appeal of the Green Party for the average person (at least federally) is that it is a new party that could potentially lift us out of the never ending left vs right debates. We already have parties for those views. Greens - don't pick an ideological "side". Just keep seeing the world through your interesting green-coloured glasses and you might come up with some new solutions and some seats in the Commons.

I find it amazing that half the NDP supporters here call the Green Party of BC right wing and the other half call the Greens on splitting the vote.

Which one is it ?

It's both because the Greens don't clarify that they are no longer a granola party and thus get the 'left' granola vote.

Other than direct questions like: "Perhaps you could name a few NDP policys that they put into place to fight child labour or help those homeless seniors to help me out."

The reason that you won't respond is because you simply can't, just admit it.

I have said virtually nothing about labour relations so its little suprise that you would think that.

Where did I suggest that? I am fully able to do that myself. What I said, rather clearly was that the NDP spent 10 years kicking the poor in the groin to appease the 'middle'. Is it an obssession with you to personalize the debate rather than respond to the arguments? What I said was that one of core the principals of the Green Party worldwide is Personal Responsability.

See above, and again below.

Actaully I am self educated, as my spelling clearly demonstrates. My 'credentials' amount to Grade 11 and two years of Art College. I can see why you are intimidated to debate me on the facts and have to resort to personalizing the debate and spent your time attempting to denude the character of your opponents rather than just arguing the facts.

See, non-sequitor...

And this is a rough summary of the NDP argument to Greens: vote for us, we are the lesser of two evils.

10% of voter decided that you weren't, just looking at this thread its little wonder too. I am more convinced than ever that there is something seriously wrong with the political culture of the NDP.

For the record:

Green Party Leader Carr Attends Kelowna Rally in Support of Teachers
http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/news/2005/10/156.php

Green Party Endorses Carr, Backs Teachers

The membership voted 80% in favor of retaining long-term
party leader, Adriane Carr

Emergency Resolution

The membership voted on an emergency resolution from the floor to support teachers in their job action against the draconian measures the provincial government has imposed with Bill 12. The Green Party of BC asks the provincial government to repeal Bill 12 and restore local collective bargaining including the rights of teachers to negotiate classroom and learning conditions.

http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/news/2005/10/154.php

Green Party Leader Urges Public to Support Teachers and Condemns Government

Thursday October 06, 2005

Gibsons "The BC Green Party stands on the side of teachers in their current dispute with the BC Government," says party leader Adriane Carr.

"We believe that when government has a healthy budget surplus, as it does now, teachers deserve at minimum a cost-of-living wage increase, especially given the widening wage gap between teachers in BC and those in Alberta and Ontario. More importantly, we believe that teachers should be able to negotiate their working conditions and that includes class size and support for special needs students," states Carr.

http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/news/2005/10/153.php

Not clever enough Deja

If you had the guts to admit the Greens have been used by the BC Libs and, by extention, the Republicans, your POV might garner some respect.

Instead you avoided that nugget and choose to repeatedly point to the Green's level of support. Few people with any intellectual honesty would argue the fact that up to half that support is due to efforts by right wing media to boost the Greens in order for the BC Libs to prevail.

You've been used and y'all are too pig headed or high on yourselves to admit it. I've heard Rockerbiff bragg about BC Green numbers being the best in the world. That bit of delusional hubris reminds me so much of the juvenile attitudes I encountered at WCWC so many years ago.

Your leadership is like a tumor whose malignancy continues to rot the party to the point it has become a joke. Your numbers are bolstered by right wing elitists whose typical main contribution to the environment is opting for the colour green when they buy their Yukons or X-5's.

Carr's racist and ungracious comments after losing the byelection will guarantee that the party will always flounder as a fringe party punchline to some obscure joke...even long after she's gone. The Greens are stalled and it can't be fixed. The die is cast. Your bubble was due to the work of a right wing propaganda machine...the Greens were suckered and everybody knows it.

You were probably at a Green Party circle jerk getting loaded on Party bathwater.

Actually, I was there too. While you were all having your little do-nothing pep-rally I was questioning the police riot squad about why they didn't have any visible identification and trying to get them to stop harrasing a bunch of kids for wearing black. Thank you for chanting 6 bucks sucks, I'm sure that you felt very rightous.

Where were you when the Kimberly Rogers Brigade occupied Jeff Brays office? Combing your damn hair. I was organizing support through vic indymedia, collecting video, photos, audio and taking some nasty whiffs of pepper-spray for the effort.

Where was the union support when we occupied the Legislature lawn? Sitting on Joy McFails knee asking for a little red fire truck?

Are there no moderators on this board? These infantile character assasinations do nothing but further erode any credibility you might have.

Deja, please stop the flaming here. It's embarrassing to watch someone rip themselves apart as you have trying to justify your support for a sham.

Yes, a sham Deja and apparently you are about the last person in the world to have figured it out.

You and your true-green purists were bought and sold to disgruntled red-tories and the other usual pack of neo-con camp followers they (and now you), are stuck with.

I am certainly not afraid to debate you, but, as I stated, arguing specifics with you simply isn't worth it because you take everything as a personal attack.

Look, I'm not trying to knock your esteem. I know nothing about you other than what you have volunteered.

Whether you admit it or not your stated education is above the norm in B.C.

I may have made light of your party, your leader and even your grasp of things like labour relations, but if that's a personal attack in your eyes, what do you do when someone blows their car horn at you impatiently?

Now, as for labour relations, I believe you spouted some position the Green Party took on treatment of workers, which if correct as you wrote it, seems quite milquetoast and apple-pie sweet, but hardly the words one would expect from someone who really cares about workers' right.

As I said before, a great many of the new Green Party members, including your new president likely enjoy the benefits of having a lower minimum wage.

Cortez, I think has put it best :the Greens were suckered and everybody (but you[B]), knows it."

If I were you I'd send a late election expense bill to the Liberals, who won numerous seats in May thanks to Greens like yourself.

So can I expect you to lead the renewed Green charge to oust the capitalist pigs

I doubt it VFM pal, because the very people you do your political camp with are the same ones who live off the backs of those children and elders

Tell me Deja, where has your fearless leader and where has your fearlesss party been for the past month as this present government of Greens In A Hurry

Your "Liberal Light" party didn't get any seats last election because it really wasn't meant to gain seats, but rather to negate as much as it could,

Deja, you obviously like to cherry pick your points, and good for you

Grow up buddy, your purity pimples are just too much.

You and your pals have been flitting around for about 20 years or so in BC telling we unwashed to get in line.

a bunch of you are heading out for a hike this weekend so the environment must be in great shape, eh?

Deja, you sound rather pathetic.

As I said earlier fellow, grow up.

Deja, please stop the flaming here.

:lol:

All this in response to my saying that building a sustainable economy would require the support of both labour and business and that it was clear that niether the NDP or Liberals would be able to get both groups working together.

Scandalous flaming for sure... oh, wait... its just the truth. No wonder you all can't stand hearing it.

:lmfao:

If a softball statement like that is so provocative mabye I should use this thread as a resume for Rafe Mairs old job! Seems I have a touch for it...

I'm crying from laughing so hard...

I'm out.

Thank you for clueing me in to your activism Deja. I have a better appreciation for your passion now and will ease up a little on slamming the real grassroots Green supporters.
I worked in dangerous conditions as well in the Recall Bray campaign so now, unexpectedly, I have a different perspective of where you are coming from.

If I were in your shoes I probably wouldn't see what well informed NDP members see either.
It is clear to us that the vote split in May cost the citizens of BC big time. I also see that the NDP has alienated many hard core greens due to policies implemented in the 1990's. My son was arrested at Kennedy Lake and dragged away alongside Merv Wilkinson so I understand your frustrations.

Sometime between now and next election accomodations must be made so the Liberals can't extend their drive to sell us out to Uncle Sam.

Well Deja

I hope your're not one of those whining politically correct babies that infest rabble.ca and scream for a moderator every time their ultrasensitive feelings are hurt.

If so..you inhabit a dream world..the same dream world that informs you the Green Party could run this province.

Your leader was routed in a byelection and responded with thinly veiled racist remarks.
Yeah..great potential.

Lets try this again:

Building a sustainable economy would require the support of both labour and business and that it was clear that neither the NDP or Liberals would be able to get both groups working together.

Any takers on a civilized discussion of the issue?

I was brought up in a household that thought a Socred was a "parasite", looking back, they seem like boyscouts in comparison to Campbells crew, If there was one thing the Socreds seemed to understand is that both sides got a piece of the pie, not that they where union friendly, but I find it ironic as a unionised worker myself the Socreds treated us better than both the Libs and NDP.

Hello everyone !

I'm the former very active BC Green.

The only comment I have to add is please stop picking on "deja". To be quite frank, it is embarrasing.

As I said in a previous post I don't really support the BC Greens anymore. I have many critical comments for the BC Greens such as their failure to disavow corporate campaign contributions, etc.
However, as most of us seem progressive in nature the in-fighting shows why the right will these days eat progressives/leftists/anarchists, etc. for breakfast !

NO TO CAMPBELL IN 2009 !
I hope to be back from Korea by then.

Best,
Kevan Hudson

Infighting?
Really..how do you see this as infighting?
Deja may personally be progressive in his views but he has aligned himself with an organization which serves to support the extreme right wing agenda of the BC Libs.

Embarrassing?
For who? You or Deja?
I'm not embarrassed to be exposing the Green Party for the hypocrites they are...ostensibly formed to protect the environment, while in reality they are making it possible for Gordon Campbell to dismantle environmental protections.

In case you hadn't noticed, the left is on the rise in BC, no thanks to the Green Party, and the municipal elections will bear that out once again.

Former BC Boy, the flamer formally known as Deja is a victim of his own irrationality.

No one is picking on him, in fact, it appears this greenster has camped himself here spoiling for a dispute.

The sad, and yes embarrassing part, is that when ever someone responds to the overly reactive fellow, he bursts out in yet another round of schrill cries for a moderator to protect him from the verbage.

Sorta like el gordo running to the courts each time people stand up to his ever-changing laws.

Have a safe trip Kevan and make double sure your teaching credentials are up to date.

Lets try this again:

Building a sustainable economy would require the support of both labour and business and that it is clear that neither the NDP or Liberals are able to get both groups working together.

Once again, any takers on a civilized discussion of the issue?

Deja:

As a Green who has received much lambasting here via the NDP "our way or no way" please do not waste your time and energy with these people.

You cannot have a civilised discussion with them nor can you rationalise the Green point of view with them, no matter how polite or well written you are.

To this type of NDP supporter the Greens are merely a mosquito flying, biting and sucking.

Sadly, the tell us the NDP and Liberals need to be kept an eye on, we as Greens are in the best position to do that.

Cortezthekiller posts regularly on http://rabble.ca/babble

Hey Rocker:

But how can I resist?

I know that I will never convince THEM. I'm not writing for them.

They certainly aren't doing any favours for thier own cause when they come on here and respond to reasonable people with the kind of trash talk they've been throwing around are they?

I'm sure that kind of bellicose puffery plays well with the Don Cherry/ George Bush types, but they are never going to vote for the Greens OR the NDP are they!

I'm working on the quite rational assumtion that everytime one of them posts it creates one new Green voter somewhere :)

Damn guess the cats out of the bag now :lol:

Hmmm... never posted on babble before, could be fun.

Hello Everyone !

Hi Allan, thanks for the kind words.
Luckily, I've already been teaching in Korea for three years now (at a university) so I won't be on a plane home unless I choose to do so (I was a high school teacher in Richmond).

As I stated in my first post we need to find common goals that we share (NDPers, Greens, left-wing Liberals, Red Tories and Work Less Party types) so we can easily defeat the neoconservative Right-Wingers.
Yes, I agree that the Green Party is not a bastion of progressive politics anymore. When I first joined it had a much stronger social justice wing (which is why I joined in the first place) in the 1990s.
However, there are still many people in the Greens are who are very progressive on all issues. Are they the majority ? I don't know.
But please tar everyone in a party with the same stroke. Is everyone in the NDP a closet Glen Clark: ready, willing and able to do Jim Pattison's bidding ? No !!!
I have many friends in the NDP who agree with me on almost all issues.
As my first post pointed out I have been successful in working with NDPers, Red Tories and left-wing Liberals at the municipal level.

Only through unity will be achieve real change !
Nonetheless, criticisms of all political parties is helpful. The Greens are not perfect and neither is the NDP and please don't get me started on the provincial Lieberals (name change intended) and the federal money grubbing Liberals !

Enjoy the weekend !
Kevan Hudson

How very telling that there are no Greens trying to refute my assertion that they are tools of the BC Liberals . The young idealists who are waving the party flag here have nothing to show for their years of pointless narcissim.

All they have is a 9-10% result in the last election which was possible only due to the disgust that many right wingers felt for our criminal premier.

Now the party has been co-opted by those right wingers who have the funds and the know how to take over the party leaving the well intentioned but gullible granola wing to twist in the wind.

Oh well.

I guess I'm a guillible granola boy !!
Oh sorry, I forgot to mention that I'm narcisstic too ! Me, me, me, me.....

Are the Greens tools of the BC Liberals ?
No, but they have certainly (especially in the last election) helped the Liberals. However, there is no proof that all of the Green voters would have voted for the NDP. Some writers and polls have shown that maybe 50% of the Green votes may have gone NDP if they couldn't vote Green. But until this happens in reality (no Green candidates in many ridings) we will not know for sure.

Oh, cortezthekiller, by the way I'm not a young idealist. I've run in three federal elections, two provincial, and two municipal. Furthermore, I'm almost 40 years old (I shudder to think of it too much).
I've had the pleasure of knowing and working with many people on political campaigns and NGO campaigns. Such as...
*Harold Steves and Linda Barnes (Civic New Democrats and Richmond City Councillors - Richmond).
*Martin Stuible - one of my best friends who is active in the North Shore NDP.
*Ron Dickson - former NDP councillor in Richmond
*Fred Bass - COPE councillor in Vancouver.
*Andrea Reimer - Green school board trustee in Vancouver.
*Lyndsay Poaps - COPE Parks Board Commissioner in Vancouver.
*Sid Tan - a very active former Green, council candiadte and communtiy activist in Vancouver.
*Murray Dobbin
*Kevin Potvin - publisher of the Republic newspaper in Vancouver and independent candidate in this municipal election.
*Pedro Mora - Global Justice community TV show producer and another indepedent candidate for this municipal election.
....etc.

So a question for you cortezthekiller.

What is your solution ?
Should the Greens dissolve and join the NDP ?
Should we all drink the "KOOLAID"? lol
Is Gordon Campbell Grace McCarthy's love child ?

The Young Narcisstic Ideallist formerly from Richmond (I wish, eh?),
Kevan Hudson

Here's my suggestion. The Greens should be clear about who they really are. But, that would result in fewer votes and thus they won't.

And, I hope you're enjoying Korea, because BC is hell under a neo-fascist gov't.

Cortez, the brute, couldn't make it so his buddy, Jim Jones, has filled in with a message for all Greens in the compound:

We're all being rewarded for our service to Her Majesty..Queen Adriane. We're going to be allowed to bask in her munificence for an extra 10 minutes today..but not until you drink your coolaid. Today's flavour is Gullible Grape.

BCB

You may be right about the current ideologies of various Green voters today but you have to ask yourself if there were any right wingers in the party when it was formed or even 10 years ago. I don't think so. That there would be so many today was unthinkable back then because there is no way you can reconcile the original mission statement of the Green Party with typical right of center sentiments. If the BC NDP were up against a left of center or even centrist BC Liberal Party then I could see that the second choice of many greens would not be the NDP. So the argument that, if disbanded, half of greens would not vote NDP just underlines my point that the party has been co-opted by elitist right wingers who have no compunctions about allowing Gordon Campbell to destroy our environment.

Former BC Boy, my only regret is that you tossed out Glen Clark's name for ridicule.

Many people don't like Jim Patison or Glen Clark and I assume you are among them.

Frankly, what's the issue with Clark taking employment with Patison other than they appear in popular thought to reside on opposing sides of various issues or philosophies.

I once worked for a firm owned and controlled by Conrad Black and David Radler.

Despite those handicaps, I was quite proud of the work I churned out and the efforts other workers made to do the same.

In short I thought I worked on a good product. That didn't mean I wanted to snuggle up to either of my "owners" if you will. In fact, I managed to keep my distance even from my immediate supervisors as a means of self-preservation.

Had someone suggested I was a tool of the future Lord Cross Harbour and one of his major henchmen I would have laughed in their face.

Now, I also had a great collective agreement that meant I didn't have to toady up to people I don't respect.

Glen Clark didn't have a collective agreement to protect him when many of his former "friends and colleagues" turned their back on him.

He had a family to feed, several charges to defend himself against and not a whole lot of job prospects falling into his mailbox.

So he took a job with Pattison, who years before had stated quite openly he would hire Clark in a minute because he thought Clark would do an excellent jobs at anything he turned to.

I realize the media has continued to paint Clark as a failure, a crook and a whole lot of things.

But let's remember, all those charges against Clark were thrown out despite the media assurances he was guilty.

Of course Clark was guilty they claimed. Why else would police accompanied by BCTV reporters and camera crew show up at his door just on time for prime time?

Now, as for the Greens. Yes there are great people who are Green Party members and there are a-holes who are NDP members.

I would suggest however, the depth of political understanding is somewhat deeper among NDPers than among the average Green, especially the younger members who have yet to figure out that the primary colours in politics are black and white.

Cortez:

Deja:

Was that not a response?

Your premise is essetially un-democratic. I don't find that at all suprising coming from a party that hands out blocks of votes to its financial backers at the expense of its individual members. What you are suggesting is that people should leave thier values at the door to the polling station and vote for the 'lesser of two evils'. You are asking people to vote for a party that, when it was in office, refused to vote for them.

Why would we do that? So you can ignore us for another 5 years? Frankly, the NDP's environmental record is not that much better.

Thats why we formed our own party.

The way to 'bring us back' is that next time you have power, actaully do the things that you say your going to. We know that politics are black and white, and that you will always chose short term union jobs over sustaniable resource management. We've had plenty of time to evaluate it. The 'big tent' is simply not big enough for us and the Woodworkers. It is not encumbent on us to resolve your internal problem that created this mess, find a way.

Untill then...

Mabye instead of posting ludicrous accusations and further alienating us, you could walk into the IWW hall and get them on side with sustainable devleopment. Lord knows we have tried, but they won't listen to us 'granola munchers'. Mabye if you explain to them that the only way you can get the Liberals out of office is if the Unions come out publicly and say that sustainable development is a priority for them, that they intend to push for better, more labour intensive silviculture methods in thier next round of negotiations with management you might be getting somewhere.

I am using forestry as an example. Another could be sitting down with the ditrectors of Pov-Net and asking, "What did we do wrong, and how can we make it right"

To date the attitudes like those of Cortez and Allen are far to prevelant within the NDP membership. It implies that it is incumbent on us to 'come to our senses' and 'stop fooling ourselves' and all of the other divisive, arrogant attitudes that come from that kind of paternalistic thinking. You can't change other people, you can't legislate or bully, or intimidate them into believing you. What you can do is look in the mirror and focus on what you can to do bridge the divide.

And for the record:

The Green membership did not vote for a two-tiered health care, but at least we had the sense to see if that was what our membership wanted.

Deja

Whoever is helping you with your rhetoric should be commended. You have hit right at the heart of two NDP weaknesses while still denying that right wingers have co-opted the Green Party.

Despite your faulty logic around the co-opting you are correct in saying that pressure from the IWA lost the NDP alot of support. I was just as disappointed as you were with the NDP's record around forestry but their record of parkland preservation is world class.

And yes...union entitlement within the party's administration and ultimately the policy making is a sore spot within the ranks. I believe that unions should advocate as a third party..not be intitled to a guaranteed voice no matter what. Until that matter is settled the NDP runs the risk of alienating a broad base of voters. That is why Carole James is working dilligently to reshape the party.

Ultimately pragmatism has to prevail or we will continue to elect BC Liberal governments who will rape and plunder our resources and then retire enmasse to Hawaii to become full time piss tanks.

The best time for idealism and pretentious use of latin is in college. Out in the real world there is a socialist party with absolutely essential union backing trying to stop extreme neocon plundering.

Just ask a sensible young German environmentalist with an interest in BC what they think about the Greens here splitting the left vote and allowing Campbell to rape the province. After lamenting the lack of PR they would say..swallow your pride and help the NDP defeat the bastards.

Deja, all kinds of efforts have been made over the years to "bridge the divde" between the NDP and Green in BC.

The problem for the past decade has been the oversized ego inhabiting the undersized brain of your leader.

Adrianne Carr has been her and the Green Party's worst enemy since taking over. I would also suggest it was Carr and some of her coherts who lobbied and encouraged the red-tories into the party.

Simple reason. She was aware as many are that a political party needs funding (unless it consists entirely of young impressionable and naive members), if it is going to go anywhere.

Her choice was the disaffected former tories who can't camp with the likes of Steven Harper.

No doubt they lept at the opportunity and why not. The Green party represented a fixed entity with lots of young and gushing members who would welcome the new funds without one question about the room full of new carpetbaggers.

But once the formalities were through, they and their money were in charge. They, just like Campbell's Liberals, were more concerned about a possible NDP win than any other outcome.

That you can't see that or won't admit it suggests you haven't got past the star-crossed aspect of being near politicians.

How sad and you want to tell others what their problems are?

And to answer your inane statement about getting compromise between business and labour, neither sector is apt to trust a political party that doesn't even know who or what it is. So no, the Green Party is not capable of reaching concensus within it's own ranks and so has absolutely nothing to offer to non-members.

You have both waltzed right past my new main point, since I let you off answering my first main point.

Adrienne Carr and the 'backers' of the Green Party have nothing to do with anything. This is not a 'strong' party, don't be fooled. It is still generally a disorganized mess, with no money, structure or reliable leaders. In Victoria and Vancouver and a few scattered ridings they are a bit more together, but where I am we got 7-8% of the vote with no campaign signs, no e-day team, heck the campaign 'team' was pretty much the candidate and his financial agent.

What I am saying, with no help from anyone at all, is that the 'emergance' of the Green Party can be attributed to a couple of key issues.

Here is an abstracted timeline:

1. Green minded folks are happy members of the NDP, hoping that radical social and ecological stewardship do indeed go hand in hand.

2. They buy party cards and attempt to get thier issues on the agenda at party conventions.

3. They are helplessly out voted because for every vote they have, a unionized logger for example, has 1.5 or 2 votes to vote them down with (I am unsure of what the member to vote ratio is when the unions get thier 'bonus votes')

4. So they attempt to become candidates, hoping to get a strong voice as minister of environment. Once agian, the same formula as above applies and they cannot get past the nomination meetings. Not getting anywhere fast here.

5. The NDP is in office, by now we have formed all sorts of disperate lobby and action groups to make progress outside of the electoral circus. We make token gains, but we made token gains with the Socreds too... why are we voting for these people?

6. By now we have recognized that we are invisible and powerless within the NDP, they keep saying that we are 'natural allies', but keeps ignoring our issues and taking our support for granted. We give them several kicks at the can. Somehow they get worse.

7. We join the much maligned Green Party and kick out Parker, pretty much for being NDP culpable... which I personally think was a shame, I am not much of a Carr fan.

8. The NDP is routed and blames us. But now we know that we have some power, we aren't invisible anymore.

9. The NDP narrowly loses. The blame game heats up, we are now 'responsable' for the Liberal victory they say.

So who is to blame? And what can be done. Well, we hold the cards don't we. You can't win without us. We have visible power and the NDPers want things to just go back to the way they were. Not going to happen. What you all have to figure out is what it is going to take to get us to 'cash our power chips' in your favor.

So there is nothing star crossed here, you just aren't operating at a very high level of analysys, either of you.

touche deja

I get to use french because I'm half frog.

It might interest you to know that I used to go to meetings at Stuart Parker's house in the late 1980's. I was less than happy when Carr and her people jacked the party.

You say the Greens hold the cards to the balance of power. That was certainly true last May...it may not be the case in 43 months.
Like 1991 the majority of voters may want to toss the libs out. With barely 50% of the vote the NDP could have a commanding majority. It wouldn't take that much of a drop in Liberal support to make that happen..probably 5-7%. At that point the Green leadership, if they're smart, will have already made overtures to the NDP in the form of a willingness to co-operate, otherwise the hardliners in the NDP will have nothing to do with you and that would be unfortunate. Your party has some people with serious environment credentials and we could all benefit from that expertise.

If I'm wrong about a drop in Liberal support then both parties will have to negotiate a big group hump..I mean hug.

Here is my answer to the theory that right wingers have co-opted the Green Party.

Not one of thier resolutions even came even close to passing this week. The membership and policys of the party remain progressive.

As for where the money comes from, there just isn't that much of it. How many GP commercials did you see this last election, how many signs?

When the NDP is done reforming its internal voting issues, just mabye they will get around to getting behind campaign finance reform like we have always supported from day one?

The Green Party of BC will:

* amend the BC Elections Act to extend the time covered by spending
limits on provincial elections to five months prior to the fixed date of
the provincial election
* ban all donations to political parties from corporations, unions
and societies, and limit individuals to donating a maximum of $1,000
per year to a political party. Tax rebates of 75 per cent for the first $400 and 33.3 per cent for the next $600 donated will be given
* introduce legislation that provides public funding of political parties
similar to that recently enacted federally

Get with the program people... we all know how bought and sold your party is.

Hello.
Good to see some agreement.

Cortezthekiller, I too was very active in the Greens during the Stuart Parker era so we have probably met before. I also wasn't very happy when he was kicked out though I must admit that Stuart made many enemies in the party.

Ultimately, as I said before I'm thinking of joining the Work Less Party when I return. I met some of them when I returned to Vancouver for a holiday this summer and I was impressed.

Also, to be spoiler. It is only when people act in large numbers that things change. Political parties of all stripes and ideologies have in-fighting and winner take all attitudes. For example, maybe the teacher's strike will be a catalyst for greater change in BC.
So often political parties sellout their core or do dumbass things appealing to the so-called middle. As Jim Hightower says, "The only things in the middle of the road are stripes and dead armadillos".

Oh, hi redrivergirl !
South Korea has a corrupt political system like everywhere else. The big chaebol (Hyundai, Daewoo, Samsung, LG, Lotte, etc.) control politics here. To be a member of the national assembly you need to be personally rich or get a load of cash from the business sector/chaebol. It is estimated that to be a National Assembly member you need about $3.5 million US. It is the same as the Senate in the USA (however the figure for the US Senate is around $10-12 million). And I should mention that it is all old people in politics here (no, not over 30...think over 50) plus the leader of the opposition is the daughter of the former dictator Park Chung Hee.In short, this isn't a nirvana...though the food is good and healthy !

Kevan Hudson

I'm really pleased to see such am insightful discussion of the of the essential differences between the Green Party and the NDP, both of which I'm strongly drawn towards.

It's clear both, because of their emphasis upon a social conscience, belong in the same camp. And while both strongly support unions, only the NDP'ers such as Allan are unable to see that giving unions too strong a say in Party/Gov't policy is what continues to destroy the NDP.

For a long time I wondered why union leadership had strayed so far from promoting Socialist principles, and while I had some clues, it wasn't until Coyote (on another Tyee thread) described "business unionism" - the idea of a mutualism between business and labour. While the idea is valid, it becomes corrosive when it means embracing the Fascist economics of Friedman et al.

For those interested in NDP history, in 1984, Grahm Lea challenged the unions with his leadership bid in 1984, lost, and in '86 (running for his failed Unity Party)lost his 12-yr-long seat to the rabidly anti-environmental unionist Dan Miller. So the issue is far from new.

But there is more to that story. With Glen Clark as Premier, Dan Miller served as Minister of Forests!!, and was elected Interim Premier for a year prior to Dosanjh. In 2004, he endorsed the IWA's Dave Haggard as a candidate for the Liberals. In 2005 the Liberals hired him as an advisor on Oil & Gas development, and also om Mines.

So, as you can see, "Business Unionism" within the NDP is going to be a tough nut for Carol James to crack, and she's got to be pretty transparent in doing it if she's going to attract the "Green" vote.

I spent some time in the gallery at the leg in 1996 and witnessed elementary school type antics. The 17 seat liberal caucus treated all NDP speakers with derision with the exception of Dan Miller. I always thought he would have been more comfortable sitting with the Liberals.

deja

With the little funding the Greens have, where would they be without their new right of center friends? If I stop trying to bust your nuts for a moment and be painfully honest I have to admit that all parties attract supporters who are potential liabilities or who will attempt to move a party away from it's core beliefs. It's a fact of life in politics.
What bothers me and other NDP supporters the most is the way an overwhelmingly egotistical, self absorbed person with mediocre talents like Adrianne Carr can remain leader of your party even after her performance in the byelection.

We can't help but think of the votes that went to the Green Party's Ralph Nader in 2000 allowing Bush to get in a position to steal the election. Without Nader in the race, Florida and the corrupt Supreme Court would not have been a factor and the world would be a different place today. Oh sure, the Democrats are only slightly less war hungry than the Republicans but anything is better than Bush.
In 2001, without a vote split, the NDP would have had several more seats and provided a stronger opposition. Last May we would have formed government and put an end to privatization and the gutting of environmental oversight.

Of course Karma and fate do factor into the equasion. If Al Gore had managed to win his own state with it's 5 lousy electoral votes, Nader and Florida etc. would not have been an issue. In BC the NDP needed to learn a lesson as well. The voters also need to learn that the major media's deliberate hatchet job on the NDP was pure manipulation of the democratic process. Voters should smarten up.

Lastly, the Greens should realise that they have, with their lust for power, created their own bad karma by allowing Gordon Campbell an extra term to finish the job he started....selling us out to Uncle Sam. Voters are not likely to forget that.

The die is cast....and your leader is oblivious to all but her personal aspirations.

Scylia, I'm afraid your eyes may have been dazzled by Coyote's theories on business unionism.

Coyote has a pretty good handle on parts of labour history, but if you will notice he lept back into the frey here at Tyee already swinging hard at his perceived business unions.

A union's first priority is to its own members, not the wishful thinking of retirees who no longer pay dues or really keep in touch with what is taking place.

You want business unions, then look at some of the rat unions, the CLACs of the world that can cut a deal on behalf of members who haven't even joined with companies that haven't even opened a door yet.

The term business union has historically been used for unions such as the traditional building trades and had more to do with the closer day-to-day operations of a union that dispatches its members to temporary jobs.

Coyote may have missed it but those unions dealt with hundreds if not thosuands of small businesses.

Think about that for a moment and note the teachers have one employer as do most public sector unions. There is a difference, a big difference.

Coyote is simply corrupting the term to attack what are essentially private sector unions.

He knows better than that and I will suggest he is simply playing silly-bugger on that point.

Scylia, I don't need a lesson from you as to the ties between the NDP and labour. There are many concerns and complaints about unions having a larger say than they might.

I believe that condition has or is being changed, but in the meantime, remember it was the unions whether you like them or not, that kept the NDP floating when many of its more independant minded members parked their votes and money elsewhere.

I have never tried to defend added votes for unions, but are you telling me you don't think corporations get special attention within the Liberal and other neo-con parties, or that
womens' caucuses in the NPD don't get to influence the party outside of the one person one vote philosophy?

If you are looking for real answers stay away from shallow reasoning.

Coyote is spinning a great tale, unfortunately it would appear to be primarily his own wishful thinking.

The Green Party's first priority is to the people who vote for it. Not to some cry babies from the NDP who can't win any votes except by scaring the supposedly ignorant masses with the boogey man of the Liberals. The NDP is not green enough for me, do you understand the words I am voting at you? If you did manage to somehow aquire the Green Party, then guess what - I would vote for the Marijuana Party. 1/2 would vote NDP? I'll bet the NDP wouldn't get any more than even 1/3 of Green Party voters. Another 1/3 to other fringe parties, and the other 1/3 would probably just stay home with the other 40% of eligable voters. Did that ever cross your mind? Take your Liberal boogey man and your neocon puppetmaster conspiracy theories and let them go already. Take some of that acidic nastiness and turn it into some positive work on your party's platform. If the neocons are trying to boost the Green Party then guess what - right on! What affect should that have on my principles? If you have a friend who actually benefited from Campbell's tax shifting (chances are statistically insignificant I know), would you never talk to him again no matter how like minded? Would that person be tainted somehow? Would you ridicule them about whatever they spent the extra money on? Why should I abandon the Green Party?

Oh my goddess maybe you do get it - you both stink! Did you hear Deja explaining how right wing motions did not pass at the Green Party AGM? Are you aware of any right leaning planks in the Green Party platform? Is it becoming more clear to you why I've voted for the Green Party for more than a decade now? Stuart Parker came to a friend of mine's house and talked to us. I was sad to see him go too. But the Green Party is more than any one person. Maybe Adrianne could be a better person, but she was elected so here we go. I'll keep voting Green for as long as society manages to keep itself together. I beleive it will help. It will give you NDP whiners something to yearn for - our votes. Maybe you'll improve yourselves to do something about it.

Yay you were there with 40,000 people on the lawn of the legislature. And then what? Did anyone else hear the phhht of the whoopee cushion going flat? Where was the BC Fed last Friday? Too chickenshit to shut down Vancouver. Decided to take whatever scraps were in the recommendation - sight unseen even. BCTF tucks their tail between their legs and goes back to their room. Do you think that's inspiring? WHERE IS THE GENERAL STRIKE? Maybe then your rhetoric about fighting for the workers would mean something to me.

grrr.

Best thread of the month! Green at heart, and anti Campbell in mind, I have to support STV. I see it as the way to elect voice of change.
...and Allan, Deja takes the nod, based on superior debating skills and sense of fair play. Take a hike son....