If Mayencourt were an NDP'er you guys would love him and be spouting how good it is to have a politician that's actually involved and active in his community, a la Svend Robinson.

Yeah 'cause Svend's involvement in his community has translated into street fights with poor constituents. Not even the Libs like Mayencourte, he's a liability. Speaking of which, its a good thing Mayencourte was elected. He was one of the biggest reasons people in the Lower Mainland had for voting NDP, Green, anything but Liberal. I bet the reason the NDP didn't pursue the legal challenge is because they're looking forward to having that fool disgrace his party again, thereby helping the NDP take more seats in 2009.

How much sense does that make Apollyon? Someone's going to vote for the NDP in Burnaby because Mayencourt is running in Burrard? By the way, if he is hated so much in the Lower Mainland why did the Libs carry the Lower Mainland and Mayencourt win his riding? As for your remark about street fights with poor constituents, this guy was abusive, threatening and intimidating, by all witness accounts. Does being a street person rationalize such behaviour in your books?

Because my comments really were made to sound like Lorne Mayencourte was the sole reason not to vote Liberals so if the Liberals won seats it must be because Lorne Mayencourte was a great guy. Don't be such a partisan fool. Obviously many people support the Liberals and good on them. But there are many Liberal-supporters who dislike Mayencourte because every time he makes news its bad news (for the party). Having him onboard for another term is more of a liability for the party than losing him. If he makes a few more headlines through the next four years he will really turn centrist and moderate Liberals off the party because he paints it socially rightwing while Campbell attempts to make it appear socially-centered.

And I agree with you, all the witness accounts I heard did paint him as abusive, threatening and intimidating... Mayencourte that is.

nemesis posted:

"If Mayencourt were an NDP'er you guys would love him and be spouting how good it is to have a politician that's actually involved and active in his community, a la Svend Robinson."

Well, that's probably right. And it probably works the other way around, too. Doesn't it, nemesis?

Mayencourt IS the BC Liberals - his hateful spite, his arrogant swagger, his refusal to ever blame himself for anything...it's all there and contained so compactly ...to remind us of the last four years and the arrogant, cruel policies of this government as they try try to re-construct their image to a kinder, gentler middle-of-the road party that really meant no harm, gosh darn folks...

No, like apollyon, I think he serves a valuable purpose - as a reminder to the people of this province... of what the BC Liberals really are.... without PR and without the phony shine of those glossy taxpayer-subsidized ads...he IS the BC Liberals stripped bare and like all good fools in Shakespearean-sized tragedies he serves his purpose.

Aggressive panhandling and shabby window cleaning... isn't that what governments do?

Personally I think it's kind of unfortunate that the NDP didn't continue to contest this election result regardless of what Tim Stevenson's personal plans might be.

The issue is simple. A number of ballots greater than the margin of victory weren't counted, and apparently cannot be becuase of administrative error. That means to me that the results should be thrown out and a new election held. It depends, though, on whether or not one of the candidates or parties wishes to contest that matter, and that may be a gap in the system. Perhaps there should be a provision for voiding election results where the margin is thin and there are questionable ballots regardless of an active complaint from a candidate or party.

Personally, I think it would have been highly educational to have a byelection next year, with control of the government a non-issue, and Lorne Maynecourt's image as an uncompromising ironman against petty crime, sort of the Dirty Harry of the Panhandler and Addict world, very much an issue.

"Personally I think it's kind of unfortunate that the NDP didn't continue to contest this election result regardless of what Tim Stevenson's personal plans might be. "

I feel the same way.

By not pursuing this matter in the courts, Stevenson and the NDP have abandoned those voters who supported them in the riding. At least my ballot was counted. If I was one of the 60 who weren't I'd be even more p**** off. I wonder if those voters have any legal recourse. I know it's just pie in the sky, but it's an interesting thought.

Both Lorne Mayencourt and Tim Stevenson are dreadful, one issue, politicians. Stevenson is not really a COPE member but a civic NDPer and one of the worst type. His defection to Green's new 'Vision' party will, I hope, be his and Green's political death knell.

Mayencourt hopefully will be rejected by Liberals as a "twit" and ignored. Certainly the West End can produe better candidates.

Apollyon; Calling Mayencourt 'socially rightwing' is ridiculous. Are you serious? And claiming that it was Mayencourt who was abusive proves that you really don't know much about this case. Budd; you're right about a byelection. The NDP would win it for sure, but only because they'd truck in union activists from all over the province to do so.

This mishandling of our democratic process makes Elections BC seem incompetent. They should be spearheading efforts to correct it. It is irrelevant who was running. When is it okay to accept an error such as this? One ballot? 100? or 1000? Always?

I'm pissed at Stevenson through this whole thing. I'm not a big NDP fan, but I wanted him to win that riding, becuase Mayencourt is the most annoying, incompetent, bungling piece of garbage to come down the political pipe in a while.
Then Stevenson just gives up... it was wrong and I'll never forgive him for that.

A friend (she's married to a failed NDP candidate) has the theory that it was better not to contest the result because she figured there might be a backlash from voters resentful of being hauled back to the polls so soon, and because voters might feel it was better to have someone on the gov't benches rather than the opposition side.

I am very disappointed , I was hoping more than anyone that Mayencourt would lose. He is like the poster boy
for the party, he is really a symbol of the nastiness of the entire party. BC is the only place in Canada that has
made begging a crime, even the VPD said the safe streets act is unenforceable. The criminal code also covers
harassing behavior, this was just a cheap way to rally the right wing social conservative support for the party. Nothing
rallies the right more than their fear and hatred of the poor.

I am also very disappointed in Tim S, more of an opportunist than someone who cares, I don't give 2 cents about your future career goals in council , you ran and had people work very hard to get you elected and now you just drop the fight. I hate weak people who always put themselves first and foremost.

nemesis says
"only because they'd truck in union activists from all over the province to do so."

you don't have to go very far to find Gordo haters, lets back your cheap shot up with some truth.

The Fiberals lost the popular vote, with all the Media good news stories, with truck loads of corporate and tax payer funded
Liberal campaigns , they lost the popular vote. Gordo even lost the popular vote in his riding. But the media did manage to play it like a 3 party horse race with the Greens, Gordo hung on by his teeth

So nemesis, you are a minority my little neo con friend, like the other old white guys who enjoy CKNW(redneck radio)

anyone want to set up a tent city outside
Mayencourt's office.

Just looking at him makes me mad.. doesn't he resemble that kid who used to break stuff then blame other people?

Despite my feeling that Mayencourt is representative of what the BC Liberals really "are" as opposed to what they would like us to "BELIEVE" they are...I feel much like Stuart and verso, that Stevenson and the NDP should have fought for this one.

As crh states - what's at issue here is the integrity of Elections BC... as well as the democratic process that keeps telling us that our one vote counts. In this case it didn't.

I'm sure that there are problems in a number of ridings with Elections BC - we just don't hear about them. Remember when you have to sign in before you vote (just to get your ballot)? Our Elections BC official forgot to get our signatures. I pointed it out to him (and I have no training - I just looked at the damn form) and he was able to get my signature and that of the woman who voted in front of me. Thankfully, we were the first two voters. He seemed pretty clueless. How many of us would have had our ballots discounted if it was, say, 3:00 pm when the error was noticed?

Partisan types - like nemesis - have a favourite tactic, which is to eliminate truth from discussion and to engage in a sort of "he said she said" mess of uncited or unsourced bull to prove their points.

Let's discuss Mayencourte, how about these quotes from the CBC (http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_mayencourt2005)

In fact, Mayencourte as the article tells, was the subject of a criminal investigation which was dropped for lack of conclusive evidence. Regardless, its made explicitly clear that Mayencourte acted aggressively.

The administration of justice is in disrepute.
Since when do common criminals enjoy a special prosecutor, simply because of the infamy created by their own behaviour? I have watched the crown proceed in other cases with far less evidence than in Lord Brayencourt's case. It is up to a judge to decide, in open court, not a "special" prosecutor behind closed doors, where shady deals get made. There is no point in having open courts when justice is perceived to be doled out at the back door.
Why was the legislature raided? The public would like to know.

re Stevenson: I believe it's called political expediency and it ain't pretty.

Camgra, I share your wonder, a year and a half after the event.

What is going on here? Being elected to office is far from sufficient circumstances to be excused from the abuses of justice.

You guys are hilarious with all your crying over spilled milk. Stuart; please.... the Liberals did NOT lose the popular vote, as a party does not need to get more than 50% of the popular vote to win it, just more than the second place party.

Holy Sh** Professor PoliSci 101 is here. Unfortunately the reality is he never graduated high school. Its common knowledge the the "popular vote" is 50% no matter what the it takes to win the election. You can't tell me you haven't heard of people winning the election and losing the popular vote (George Bush v. Al Gore circa 2000)???? If you win an election but do not grab more than 50% of the votes you are considered to have lost the popular vote.

Now I know you're going to kick and scream about this and pretend its some anti-Liberal scheme, yadda yadda but thats just basic politics my friend. I think if you poked your head out from the sand and tried to have a common sense argument (with a head full of real political science) you might find yourself a little more moderate and a little less crazy.

A party does not require 50% of the pop vote to form government. It does not require a higher percentage than the party that forms the opposition. A party requires more than 50% of the seats to form a majority government.
Legitimacy is a different issue.

I'm with Jamez on this one. I'm angry at Stevenson for running a lackluster (at best) campaign. The riding should have been a slam dunk for the NDP with Mayencourt running.

I've never been a big fan of Tim Stevenson, but this abandonment goes too far. As I suspected when he ran for city council the first time, he just another opportunist. He won't get my vote or my time or my money again.

nemes:

"Budd; you're right about a byelection. The NDP would win it for sure, but only because they'd truck in union activists from all over the province to do so."

I doubt that union activists would agree to be transported by truck. They would likely insist upon an air conditioned bus.

As to how many labour union staffers and activists would show up to help fight a byelection in Vancouver-Burrard, I really don't know. Probably a few dozen, maybe a few hundered if the candidate were from labour roots, or had a key relationship with unions, for example, a lawyer who has acted for unions in litigation and arbitration matters.

Since it's pretty clear that you support the BC Liberals, I have a couple of questions for you. First, who do you think would be brought in to help out on Lorne Meinkampf's behalf if a byelection had been required? Would there be a lot of middle management and junior executive types sent in by the companies to help keep BC's business climate healthy? What would the real cost of their time be?

Second, do you also support the Federal Liberals and Hedy Fry, or do you think it's time she moved on? Do you think David Emerson will run in the East End Kingsway riding again, or demand a safer seat?

excerpted:

"What’s funny is that while Mayencourt is defending Elections BC, they aren’t defending themselves. Eleven of the 71 uncounted ballots could potentially have been fouled by the voter. But Elections BC readily admits that the other 60 were invalidated because of a mistake by a single official at a single poll, according to spokesperson Jennifer Porayko."

In the vernacular of the young, Elections BC sucks!

In this case voters were disenfranchised, but the same Elections BC overseeing the process also monitored the flawed STV vote that should have been invalidated and held again following the rules, or given to the Yes-side. The infractions were many and noted in the media.

I love the smug right wingers with their union shots. At least the NDP did not chicken out and have by appointment only
stump speeches. But a sobering thought is the fact that the Fiberals got 46% of the vote, the NDP got 42% and the Greens
got 8%, in short more people voted against Gordo and his pack than for them. Even in Gordo's own riding.

Even with tax payer funded ads, and a huge cash advantage by special interest and a whore media with all the good
news stories and playing it like a 3 party horse race . Even with all this advantage most people who voted did not vote Fiberal, so my point is folks like Budd and others are the minority.

Unions have the ability to organize and take the power away form the employer, every positive gain that has been made has
come form the labour movement, the more folks poke at them just shows their fear or ignorance . Got to go , switching my telephone provider( I will make sure I tie up the lines for at least 30 min) did you see the BC Fed is not on the picket lines, LOL, I wonder how telus will feel losing say 150,000 customers.

sorry now on the picket lines

They have lost me as a customer. I paid my last bill with the maximum amount of coin, rolled and loose. It didn't hurt that this seemed to really annoy the person who took my money. I suggest that dissatisfied customers pay with coins.

Apollyon; So quick to insult. Perhaps that should be discouraged on these threads. Here's your lesson for the day: The 'popular vote' is simply a measurement of the percentage of votes a party receives.
'Winning' the popular vote simply means that you received more votes than the second place finisher. It has nothing to do with a 50% threshold, and it has no bearing on whether or not a party forms government, as witnessed in the 1996 fiasco, where the NDP, led by Glenocchio, received only 38% of the vote while the Libs received 41%. In the first-past-the-post system this translated to the Negative Destructive Pessismistic Liars party winning 39 seats to the Liberals 36 seats, which resulted in the worst five years of government in the history of British Columbia.

I just spend 45 min on the phone with some manager, made him describe every program, change stuff around on my account and then change it back, ask as many questions as I could and then call him a **** and cancel my service, tomorrow I will reconnect and them leave it a few days and go threw the process again. I am really pissed, I can see a company being this way if they are just making it, but they are making profits hand over fist like crazy over the last few years,

The fact is a company is always trying to chip away at the bottom line to return more and more to its shareholders and never the actual folks who make the money for them. The % of the population that is active in trading stock is very small, this tiny concentrated group has so much power over the messages we see and the communities we live in. I guess some of the posters here do not want good paying jobs in the community but would prefer some rich **** in the US funneling money out of the province.

LOL, hey Nemesis , either you have been out of town or your on some nice BC Budd,

some facts to ponder , open the link

http://www.members.shaw.ca/bcliberals-badforbc/

Gordo, drunk with power with his crowd,

HOWE STREET — Premier Gordon Campbell’s newly-minted budget is receiving praise and support from a broad cross-section of BC society, from multinational branch-plant executives to home-grown business superstars.

“It’s refreshing to see a government get its priorities right and stop wasting money on unproductive seniors, ivory-tower-idealist students, and the economically-irrelevant poor in order to reward those who actually deserve it, like me,” commented BC Business Summit executive, Stoch Opshuns.

Dismantling the decrepit Soviet-era government monopolies in medical, social service and education delivery is the most successful policy of the BC Liberals’ first nine months in office.

“Everyone is pleased with the elimination of totalitarian collectivising agreements that gave even the lowliest cleaning woman tyrannical power over my bottom line,” said Health Management International CEO Rich Geyesferst.

“This exciting new era will attract BC’s— and the world’s— brightest entrepreneurs to innovate new models of profit maximation and wage minimization in privatized services,” Geyesferst enthused.

“Stock market valuations and executive compensation for social service delivery companies will go through the roof, which benefits everyone,” he added.

“I’m just relieved the Liberals have brought in such a balanced budget,” said BC’s own world-class billionaire, Jimmy Prettysums. “They delicately balanced my six-figure tax cut on one side with comprehensive social program cuts on the other.”

The BC Progress Board, a blue-ribbon citizen panel drawn from all social levels of the corporate boardroom, has given the plans a tentative two-thumbs up. “We recommended the more progressive approach of eliminating the wasteful welfare and medicare systems all together, but this is the next best thing,” said Board spokesperson Maura Foramee.

“Everybody knows that the private sector can deliver services more profitably than lazy, overpaid civil servants, so it’s high time the BC government let us get on with the business of privatization,” she added.

One problem area identified by business leaders is the increased fees for everything from medicare to public parks. “Everybody whines about the poor seniors’ Pharmacare increases, but, you know, we wealthy people have to pay these fees too, which means I’m might be buying less Dom Perignon and caviar,” lamented Greide Fahtcaat, CEO of RawLoggers.

“Corporate executives already carry more than their fair share of society’s burden by working tirelessly to increase profits and quarterly dividends, so we should be exempt from any fee increases,” Fahtcaat explained.

Hey Nemesis , Budd and Ron Irwin, got a hard on yet. Reading thats like porn to you guys.

Nemesis you are right about the insults not being kosher. My problem with people like yourself is that your blind partisanship comes across as an insult to people trying to have a decent conversation. I understand you hate the NDP and love the Liberals, that's fine, you haven't seen me bash them or praise the NDP yet you still feel its incumbent to zealously argue as if you were underseige. You gotta relax and realize that saying something might possibly be a mistake by the Liberals doesn't mean the NDP is better, and so on and so on. I have conversations with friends ranging from marxists to bc libs and fed libs to tories. What keeps us all together is we can admit faults and make educated criticisms.

Anyway, you're definitely right that the NDP under Clark did not win the popular vote.

The first definition of popular vote is generally tied to democracy to the point where one can almost be substituted for the other. The second definition of popular vote, however, is tied to a more advanced tenet of political science known as legitmacy which someone mentioned above. You are generally considered to be a legitimate government if you have the majority of the people supporing you (50%+).

Clearly as you pointed out today Glen Clark did not.
The only point being made by others in this thread is that Gordon, in his own riding and perhaps in the rest of the provine, also suffered a similar moral defeat.

As for your comment, I think it was already made pretty clear that it has no bearing on forming government nor is it related to the first-past-the-post system, so I guess we're all in agreement there.

Lord Brayencourt enjoys a tainted, asterisked victory.
If I see the guy on the street I will ask him for some change and follow him around. I would love to see what he looks like foaming at the mouth and from what I hear, it requires little provocation. If he touches me I will ask the police to file charges.

I say we all start calling 911 everytime someone asks for change , flood the lines until the police make the Fiberals recind the law.

Please make sure that the person asking for change does not get hurt by the police. But that is an excellent idea. Bear in mind that the police will charge people with mischief if they think the 911 lines are being abused.

Apollyon; You're right and wrong. I dislike the NDP because I believe that Glen Clark's behaviour from Jan.96 to his departure were bordering on criminal in many facets. They need more time in the penalty box and need to disassociate somewhat from Jim Sinclair and his gang. I don't love the Liberals, and am not a party member, but will support them because they are, in my opinion, the only alternative at this time. I must disagree, however, that there is a second definition to 'popular vote'. It just isn't so. In fact in multi-party systems it is extremely rare for any gov't to receive more than 50% of the vote, therefore the whole notion of using that term to analyze elections is irrelevant.

We believe the biggest disappointment in Mr. Stevenson's actions is to the fast eroding concept of true democracy. Mr. Stevenson chose his own interests over the interests of his constituents in Vancouver Burrard, particularly those who voted for him.

By doing so, Mr. Stevenson undoubtedly ingratitated himself to the 'establishment' and provided yet another opportunity to raise monies through a campaign with the likely residuals going to the me, myself, and I account.

Mr. Stevenson ought to have reflected a proper sense of conviction in democratic ideals pursueing the court challenge to the end.

Instead he has prostituted his own integrity and hurt the what might have been the betterment of the overall system.

These political actors fight like heck to get into the public eye, and once in the club, none of them, not one of them, think to make the proper sacrifices necessary to improve democracy in this province.

Mr. Stevenson just added himself to the pile of garbage which constitutes the democratic deficit in this province (and the country).

Justice would ultimately dictate that he lose his bid for city councillor.

Perhaps he would have pursued the seat if the NDP had won the election.
The decision to hold the bye-election should not be discretionary and should be automatic in these kinds of cases. Elections BC should have forced Stevenson's hand.

Ah, alas, is my riding official.

One talking head conceeded to the other talking head. Why should the most populous riding in the province matter anyways?

Ah, I'm still glad I voted for neither, and almost hope they lost my vote.

"I dislike the NDP because I believe that Glen Clark's behaviour from Jan. '96 to his departure were bordering on the criminal in many facets,'' offers nemesis as wisdom from the farside.

Please, please nemesis, enlighten booney types such as myself on this "near" criminal
activity?

He left two blanaced budgets in the last two years and did it without giving his friends $2 Billion in personnal income tax cuts and then pleading to Ottawa for have-not status.

Did he get caught drunk driving?

I realize he got too involved in the fast ferries mess, an error I suspect he would accept now.

But you know what?

There wasn't very much wrong with those ferries. I have to wonder why they languished tied to a backwater dock on a Fraser River tributary for years, before being put for sale as scrap.

I tend to think that action was a crime of vandalism soaked up in partesan bile.

It was certainly malice.

Pigs soaring over the frozen wastes of hell witnessed Vancouver's mayor, Bjorn Lyencourt, receiving the Nobel peace prize for his selfless and humanitarian work helping the less fortunate of Vancouver.
"It is an incredible honour to be awarded this prize, and I would like to announce that I have chosen to donate the money to social housing and drug treatment programs" said the Vancouver mayor from his float in the Gay Pride parade, just before it wound its way through the eye of a needle.

Some eye.

Some needle.

Indeed... when pigs fly.

Dear Mr. Beers;

I realize it's a long weekend, and the likelihood is that you're out in the sun someplace, but I, and I think some others would appreciate some confirmation that the rather odd and somewhat amomolous posts that have shown up on this site recently under the names "Beers" and "redparty" in fact originate with you.

The language and attitude displayed there seem unlike what you have shown in the past. When you have expounded your perfectly reasonable policy of requiring posters to adhere at least to the laws of Canada as regards slander, libel and fraud, you have usually seemed more temperate.

For these reasons, there's been some speculation the posts I mentioned might be a hoax. So I thought I'd just ask. Did you write that? Or is it some long weekend prank by somebody else?

Hmm, did not take long to censor my post here.

Freedom of speech is only for lefties who hold the same views, I suppose.

I love tyee , I guess it was hoax. You must be making head way when folks start pulling crap like that.

Sorry , was not a hoax.

We seem to have our very own "Stupid White Men":
http://www.thinkingpeace.com/Lib/lib052.html

Does anyone remember OFF THE RADAR from the Paul Myers Show which got pulled from the airwaves just as it was getting interesting? OTR sniffed out things that make you go hmmmm? and sometimes things that make you go should I cut my wrists now or later?

One thing that struck me was how "governments" put in place seemingly innocuous legislation OFF THE RADAR that comes in handy later.

While the BC Elections Act wasn't put in place for this past election I wonder if not challenging the result - where the actions of one election official may have thwarted the will of the electorate - builds a platform for future elections where "the law says" that 600 or 6000 votes can be discounted.

Why can't someone other than Stevenson challenge the result?

Yep, I recall that show. Used to make a point of tuning in. Didn't surprise me at all that it got killed.

I think that Stevenson is wrong here.

(Not so wrong that I feel any kind of need to insult him, just that I think he was wrong).

Candidates often see political contests as personal. A contest between themselves and the rival candidates. But there's more going on in an election than restrained gladitorial combat - there are voters who are seeking representation, as they would choose it. For a valid recount to be dropped for personal considerations, let alone one of those rare recounts that actually had a statistical hope of overturning the result, is, I think, an abandonment of the candidate's duty to represent the voters. It's not about what I want to do today. It's about the voters right to choose, and to have that choice enforced by the process when it proves to be close.

I live in a neighborhood with a very high turnover, a number of transients, a number of people who vote who are not neccessarily on the voters list. I saw in this case the potential for the court to tighten the right of every voter to have their vote counted. I've administered several recounts, including three judicial recounts. The courts have tended to lean towards the right of the individual to have that vote counted over the technicalities of process.

At the end of the day, those absentee voters - and what may have well been the majority that agreed with them - may well have been left without the representation that they chose. It shouldn't be up to one person, candidate or not, to make that choice based on their own personal considerations. Nor should the law allow the recount process to rely solely on the whims or resources of the candidates.

Jaimie McEvoy
New Westminster, BC