Uh-huh. This from the city that refuses to crack down on owners of 24/7 chained "yard dogs", like the ones who attacked Shenica White and others, or unlicensed backyard puppy mills that produce substandard pups with behavioral issues. No, it's easier just to "ban the pitbulls!!!" and avoid taking any responsibility for enforcing laws that might actually help solve the root problem. Banning a single breed is just going to get the drug dealers and idiots out there to turn to another "vicious" breed, which they will abuse until it has the same bad rap as the pit bulls do now. I work with a rescue that's placed lots of pits over the years, and we have never had any issues. I have, on the other hand, been nipped by many poorly trained small dogs in the dog parks - are they going to ban chihuahuas or Jack Russells? Well socialized and properly handled dogs do not attack humans (unless they or their owners are being attacked or under extreme cricumstances). Vancouver city council have their heads up their collective asses.

Uh-huh. This from the city that refuses to crack down on owners of 24/7 chained "yard dogs", like the ones who attacked Shenica White and others, or unlicensed backyard puppy mills that produce substandard pups with behavioral issues. No, it's easier just to "ban the pitbulls!!!" and avoid taking any responsibility for enforcing laws that might actually help solve the root problem. Banning a single breed is just going to get the drug dealers and idiots out there to turn to another "vicious" breed, which they will abuse until it has the same bad rap as the pit bulls do now. I work with a rescue that's placed lots of pits over the years, and we have never had any issues. I have, on the other hand, been nipped by many poorly trained small dogs in the dog parks - are they going to ban chihuahuas or Jack Russells? Well socialized and properly handled dogs do not attack humans (unless they or their owners are being attacked or under extreme cricumstances). Vancouver city council have their heads up their collective asses.

Damn, double post - moderator, can you please remove the no-name one? Ron, I have been proposing the same solution for years to get rid of the excess Canada geese in this city! The tourists fatten them up for free, why don't we make use of this waddling food source and feed the hungry people on our streets?

I just came back from a walk. Appearing on the sidewalk before me was this dude, with his lady, pushing a baby buggy, and his pit-bull, large and agressive barrelling down the sidewalk. I crossed the street fast...not wanting to encounter a pit-bull with perhaps an overzealous protective urge over the family and the baby. When I crossed over I called over...to the fellow...and told him 'his pit bull was the reason I crossed the street to the opposing sidewalk'. I said I had been bitten twice. To this he reply, oh, she is fine, she hasn't bite anyone...and then he hauled out the lease which was in the baby buggy. He just didn't get it all...and it is because of stupid, irresponsible owners such as this, who due to their ways cause their pit-bulls to be aggressive ....'sorrowful events' about to happen...I am all for banning pit bulls, Rotoweilers, and a couple of other fighting breeds from Vancouver, BC. If it was possible to enforce the lease/muzzle law 100%...so 'accidents' don't happen it would be a different...but because of ignorant owners such as the one I described, which are replicated by the hundreds across this province...no way. One child's death is one too many...and we have had several children and adults either killed or severely injured. ...and the owners, charged with criminal negligence, being regretful and sorry...will not undo the situation, will not bring back a child to life, or heal the trauma caused. Strong views - yes....but this incident...plus the historical track record of pit bulls speaks for itself....

Yes, ban a creature that can provide protection in a city with a soaring crime rate. It makes as much sense as anything else Vancouver's loony council does. Give away free needles to junkies and give them a nice medically supervised shooting gallery and oh, by the way, ban pit bulls. These awful dogs may hamper these sweet caring junkies in their pursuit of funds. Pit Bulls can be a noble creature and are capable of providing protection in a city that has proven unable to protect its citizens.

I agree with the ban. Perhaps those who disagree with banning certain breeds should think about the genetic history of dogs. 99.9% of current breeds of dogs do not exist in nature, but are, rather, invented by human beings. Pit Bulls were invented by breeding dogs with the most aggresive dispositions and greatest strength, for dog fighting, and bear and bull baiting. They also have a very strong jaw, which they refuse to release once it is clamped, until suitable damage is done to its victim. I'm sure there are some Pit Bulls which are harmless, and very loving and safe, even around infants. Many responsible owners have undoubtedly overcome the genetic predispositions of their dogs, but I think certain breeds are just too aggressive and powerful to be legal. Perhaps googling "pitbull attacks" might be instructive. I was bitten by a Collie, but it just nipped me and took off. Pitbulls like to leave a somewhat more memorable calling card. They also seem to have no fear, which tends to make them quite difficult to discourage, once they lock on to a target. I think Dr. Coren, an apparent dog expert, has presented a misinformed view--a mistaken evaulation of canine genetics. Perhaps Pitbulls can be socialized with knowledge and loving care, but the normal, intended phenomic manifestation of their breeding is for them to be extremely aggressive and threatening--and unstoppable--once they have decided to attack. His rationalization, that other breeds will be used in place of Pit Bulls seems a strange observation. (A classical non sequitur) If another breed is used, and becomes a problem, it too should be banned. I don't think identifying Pit Bulls is going to be as much of a problem as Dr. Coren suggests. Certainly his comment that originally all dogs which were used in dog fighting contests were called "Pit Bulls" is a meaningless observation. Language changes with usage. Noone today would call a Newfoundlander a Pit Bull if it was used in a fighting ring. Tim Stevenson has it correct: Dogs tend to react to threats, real or imagined, according to their breeding. (Pit Bulls occasionally react viciously when there is no threat) While there is an ongoing "nurture versus nature" controversy regarding human beings, the case has been pretty well settled with dogs. As Tim Stevenson would concur :sled dogs pull sleds and Greyhounds run races. Nature may have specialized Beavers for cutting down trees, but humans specialized Pit Bulls to be damn scary. A Pit Bull is an idea--a concept animal. I think it's a mistake. On tv last night I heard a woman say that banning Pit Bulls would be like "ethnic cleansing." Not. Is there a certain ethnicity, the members of which like to bite people a lot? Luckily, I haven't met them on the sidewalk lately.

"ban a creature with a soaring crime rate". First, it is not true, violent crimes in the city have decreased. Secondly, many pit-bull owners are not little ole ladies, or women in fear of their life, but men, some of whom likely need a pit-bull to guard their grow operation---which is the lower mainlands #1 underground cash economy. "Bulls can be a noble creature..."..why even pigs can find acorns in the shit pile too every once in awhile...and then we have "the owners" ...a class on-to-themselves, a law unto themselves --"oh, no, the lease law doesn't apply to my pit bull,he is such a noble, kind-hearted creature" . Give me a f@#king break. My mottoo is: Not one child's death or injury is worth have pit bulls - ban them!...

The popularity of "fighting" breeds like Pit Bulls, especially in highly populated urban areas, is one of those sad proofs, that anti-people, anti-social behaviours are on the rise, along with, at least, a good many folks getting dumber and dumber out there. These folks are living evidence that not all evolution is forward, onward and upwards.

And regrettably, too many of these breeds fall into exactly the pathologically wrong kind of hands to own them-, along with a good many others of the too friggin' many dogs out there, to be sure. And I'm a dog lover actually-, but recognize that some breeds have no place in particular environments, especially but not exclusively urban ones.

There's too much human incompetence out there, and typically, they are bot the best judges of themselves or the kinds of dogs that are appropriate for their or our circumstances. The rest of us have a right and responsibility to prevent these assholes choosing to bring some of the breeds they do amongst us, and the Pit Bull is at the top of the list. And I care a rats ass about the rationalization of where we draw the line. Clearly Pit Bulls, but I'm damned sure others, are on the "put 'em down", don't take the risk side of the line.

Don't ban pit bulls!

Instead, ban people from owning them!

Those of you with your heads in the sand thinking banning pit bulls will stop dog bites should just stay in the sand. You might as well ban all dogs over 40 pounds, because do people seriously think banning a specific breed is going to stop irresponsible people from getting another dog of a different breed? I'd love to hear what these pro-banners are gonna say when suddenly it's a Shepherd attack, a Mastiff attack, or whatever attack on the front page. They're all be shrugging their shoulders going "oh, that breed ban didn't really work did it? Oops, our mistake, sorry to you person who just got bit." Look at Calgary - no breed bans whatsoever and very few dog attacks because their bylaws focus on what owners have to comply with and ensures responsible ownership. Problem solved. You've covered every yahoo who thinks it's cool to own a dog that acts aggressively, regardless of what it looks like. People need to get realistic, and start cracking down on the human on the other end of the leash. I know lots of bull breed dogs, who are well trained lovely dogs. There is no scientific proof or study ANYWHERE that these dogs are more genetically "predisposed" to aggressive behavior other than your local politician spouting this just trying to get more media air time to get re-elected. People need to get educated on dog facts and they would soon discover there are good and bad temperaments in every breed, period. The onus has to be ensuring that every dog owner acts responsibly in the care of their dog, regardless of breed. That's the ONLY thing that stops bites.

Let's be just like Italy and have a breed ban list that includes over 40 breeds now on it -that would be just SUPER and certainly solve all this city's dog problems - not. My dog is a titled obedience dog and more highly trained than most ankle biters in this city. A lot of people stop to pet her, find out she's a pit bull or Am Staff, or whatever you want to label them, and walk away with a different impression about the breeds that are so apparently "dangerous." The only thing she's gonna do is maybe lick ya to death! So I'm supposed to just sit back and let fear mongering and sensationalized media ban my pet? Think again - there are a lot of responsible bull breed owners that will want their voices heard. These are smart, loyal dogs who have an affection for people that is undeniable for anyone who truly knows what a good bull breed dog is about. 90% of these dogs will never land on the front page anywhere and are our beloved pets.

It's interesting to note that Stone's co-worker was on TV the other day saying that Animal Advocates is in desperate need of fosters to take care of dogs with behavioural problems. She also stated that some of these dogs take up to 10 years to become well behaved. I think animal advocates is supporting the ban to take the heat off the poorly behaved dogs that they prevent from being euthanized. I don't understand why a so-called "dog expert" would advocate euthanizing a non-breed, while at the same time, prevent known agressive dogs (individual dogs, not breeds) from being put down. Totally hypocritical if you ask me.

Hey, how do we know that the Stanley Park dog was a pit bull? The dog was removed from the scene, before its breed was verified. Besides, that woman was on TV jumping around describing the so-called attack. She looked unscathed to me. Could this be another instance of the media creating news where none exists?

Shenica White was not bitten by a pit bull. The dogs were Mastiff Rotti crosses. The border collie in the Maple Ridge incident had bitten before and had been deemed a vicious dog. The Winnipeg bylaw against pit bulls actually didn't change anything. It wasn't until they started cracking down on various aspects of responsible dog ownership that they began to see fewer bites in Winnipeg. They still get bites. Shepherds top the list. A breed ban did work in Wpg's favour financially, though. They sold dogs to the U of M for research, a practice that they didn't end until quite recently. Ottawa's proposed legislation also has a clause stating the use of confiscated dogs for research purposes. People have to stop thinking with their emotions and actually do a bit of research. The bottom line is that there a very few fatal or serious dog attacks in Canada, and those that occur are caused by various breeds. The number one cause of injury in Canada is falls. Next is car accidents, followed by being hit by a person, object, or falling object. Following that is cycling accidents. Dog attacks don't even warrant a separate category. Here's the link http://www.ottawasafecommunities.org/statistics.htm Don't get me wrong, if a dog seriously harms or kills someone unprovoked (I have little sympathy for a burglar) it should be destroyed. But to descriminate against responsible dog owners is just not right.

joe quimby will send clancy wiggum out to round up all the pit bulls. first question, what's a pit bull mayor? how can you ban a non existent breed? will there be grandfather protection for current owners of dogs that look like they might be a pit bull? first they came for the pit bulls and i did not speak out...

One more thing. Check out the link in Jessica's story (Rottweilers and Akitas). It links to Winnipeg's dog stats. Note that even in the year they banned "pit bulls," German Shepherds were the top biters. Now, consider that "pit bull" is not a breed, but a catch-all term for several breeds, and it changes things. German Shepherds attack more frequently than the five or so "pit bull" types. Wpg's legislation was flawed from the start. They obviously had no intention of banning the top biting dog. Maybe the mayor at the time (Norrie) had a Shepherd, not a pit bull. Hmm, I wonder.

So many scared puppies, to live in fear is not to live, your already dead. It's amazing to me that we can only get safer when we lose liberties, lets have the state ban anything that scares us and may cause a threat. The dog owners disposition and care is what shapes the dog, its kind of a catch 22 also as dogs sense fear and usually nip people who are nervous around them. I was bitten by a dog as a kid(a beagle) it drew blood and I had to go the hospital. Investigators found that the dog was in severe neglect, I felt sorry for the dog and did not want to ban it. Dog's like humans can have unpredictable behavior based on their temperaments or environment, maybe all youth in East Van should be kept inside because of a few bad apples. LOL

As long as people have dogs, you will have the occasional dog bite. The key to preventing dog bites is preventing the conditions that create vicious dogs - it's been proven that chained yard dogs, unsocialized dogs, and dogs are far more likely to attack. Crack down on these issues instead of a specific breed and you minimize the chances of ANY breed becoming a danger to people. I'd also like to see the laws on vicious dogs changed to penalize the owners much more heavily - your dog attacks somebody, you get hit with a full on assault charge; your dog kills somebody, you get charged with either manslaughter or murder. And FTR, I totally believe that dogs who *do* attack anyone unprovoked (the burglars/rapists/thugs deserve exactly what they get) should be put down - no excuses.

I agree with Ron- let's set up a public display at say, the art gallery, hang dogs alive, torch them, and while they squeal and suffer in pain, hell- even bring your own pet to watch to deter any bad behaviour haha- line up the homeless for dinner. Because THAT is how they are "prepared" as boshintang (dog meat)in Korea.

Rhea and John have my respect on this thread; Shenica White was quoted as saying she was upset by the treatment of the dogs (by their owners) that would lead them to attack her the way they did. I, too, have been bitten by a dog as a child. I was petrified. He tore my socks and I walked home shaking as the owner called out "sorry- you ok?" from his front door. I also had a knife pulled on me at a nearby park at night when I first moved to this city and it was my dog who alerted me to the man's presence and eventually scared him away. When I see pits I get a bit nervous because for some reason my dog doesn't like them, and I fear he may lose that fight. But all in all, I do not support the ban.

Unfortunately alot of the people that are attracted to owning this type of dog couldnt care less what people think. Case in point I was riding my bike one morning on the Galloping Goose trail near the Saanich police Station. A guy has an unleashed pit bull running around agressively snarling at everybody, the dog almost ended up under my bike. I told the guy he should have his dog on a lease, his answer "shut your fucking mouth". There were kids and people on bikes and this was this guys attitude less than 200 metres from the Saanich Police. My point -if this is a regular pit bull owner, who has sh*t for brains then why give characters like this loaded guns either ban these breeds or make the owners take take out $500 liability licenses or bonds which they lose when the dog bites somebody. Its fine stating its the owners etc. not the dogs fault but why is it whenever there is a horrendous attack its almost always a pit bull. As for these dogs being noble and show dogs give me a break the dogs have one purpose only -to destroy.

I do not support the "taking" or "ownership" of "pets". Is nature, as presented itself - not enough for people?

I happen to feel that pet taking is an act of induced co-dependency - induced by humans. I do not buy for one moment the idea that dogs (or cats ..etc..) are "naturally predisposed" to being "domesticated". Who gave anyone (any human) that "authority"?

People, by and large, appear to treat "their animals" as extentions of themselves - and that to me is a violation of nature, an assumption of nature as "property".

If one makes a claim of "loving nature" - then I firmly believe people would not "own" - but instead create habitat for a more free reality - and not conjure endless rationales of needing to "save" animals from SPCA's and the like from "harm" - under the condition of personal property, for all the "loving" sounding talk of loving the animal beings. It's peoples needs being mis-fulfilled, mostly.

People who "take pets", often presume that as a "right", and often make loud noises about seeing themselves as "second class" citizens when their "rights" are not being met - like "dog parks", for instance, seldom questioning - what gives me the right to presume that this act of pet taking is morally right at all?

It is noteworthy that dog "keepers" in particular, display a similar kind of righteous indignancy, and presume a similar "right of ownership" (and presume extended "rights") that people who believe in the "right" of bearing weapons tend to display. Dog lobbies in particualar can be fierce and highly "militant" in a political fashion. There are a lot of screwed up people (with pets...and without) - and a vast array of "pet owners" own problems are bundled - and mentally transfered (including aggressive behaviours) onto their four legged offshoots. When dogs act up it is no "accident" - ever.

It seems futile to attempt to define a genotype without a clear standardized indicator to show which dogs you mean. You'd have to do something to the owners in order to control this problem.

How about this...establish a requirement to insure dogs specifically against any damage they might cause. All dogs over say 15 kilos must be insured, all dogs over 25 kilos must be insured for a million bucks for liability against injuries. Statistics will provide risk assessments for given bloodlines, setting premiums. If you want to own a Rottie or a Staffordshire or a Doberman, you just have to pay the grand a year. See if that doesn't make a difference in owner behaviour.

People in favour of these dogs should have to wear a T-shirt with a picture of the terribly wounded and scared people they have attacked. Why would you want an animal you couldn't trust? and you can't . 5 saw my heighbour's pitbull take off down their driveway and vicously attack another neighbour 's old dog out for a walk on a leash - if you had heard that old dogs screams of pain you would never forget it . The pitbull was well treated and there was no provocation for the attack so its just in the genes i guess and I wouldnt trust one any further than I could throw it.

meant to say scarred not scared

I agree, Dave, that the guy you met was a jerk, and I hope to God he's not a typical pit bull owner. But in all honesty, I don't think he is. The media has taken its own slant on things. The Stanley Park incident is a perfect example. I don't even think any blood was drawn. The dog was never identified by an authority, but "looked like a pit bull." A lot of people don't really know what a pit bull looks like, including Michael Bryant who is spearheading the Ontario ban. He incorrectly identified a dog on CTV when the TV crew switched around the photos without his knowledge. Off-hand I can't think of a serious pit bull attack. The Langley incident a while ago was bull mastiffs (did you notice how quickly the story was dropped when they realized it wasn't a pit bull?). The little girl in Ontario who died several years ago was attacked by a bull mastiff. A lot of good the proposed legislation would have done her. Shenica White -- mastiff/rottweiler. Cody Fontaine/Anger (not quite sure what his official last name is, but it's the Maple Ridge attack)-- Rottweilers/border collie. Heck, a pomeranian killed a baby in California six or so years ago. Pit bull reports? Lately we've had a woman nipped in the butt or wherever while jogging around Stanley Park. Was she hospitalized? Was blood drawn? A dog snapping at air and clothing can't really be considered an attack. The little boy skating in Ontario...he had a few scratches. That's not an attack, and how did they determine the breed of the dogs involved? Don't get me wrong. Whatever the breed of dog that attacks unprovoked should be put down. Whatever the breed. Banning certain types of dogs won't solve the problem. Mandatory spaying and neutering might. What the media neglects to mention are the stats that attribute the majority of dog attacks to unneutered males and unspayed females. It would be far easier to legislate mandatory fixing of intact animals than it would to prove that a dog is of a certain breed. Did you know that all dogs' DNA is so similar that you cannot determine breed by DNA? How would we determine for sure what breed a dog is? Often the press reports an 150-pound pit bull. Sorry, no such thing. I would even advocate all dogs being muzzled in public before I would advocate a ban specifying certain types of dogs. Banning pit bulls won't stop guys like the one you encountered, unfortunately. He's an idiot and a disgrace to all dog owners. Now if we could license owners rather than dogs, perhaps we could come to a workable solution.

Leo, while I don't advocate dog aggression, dogs do get into scraps. Dog aggression and human aggression are two different things. Just because a dog growls or snaps at another dog doesn't mean it's aggressive towards humans. And you don't know that there was no provocation. Someone told me a story the other day that his dog got snapped at by a German Shepherd. He thought the Shepherd was unprovoked, but then actually admitted that his dog growled when the Shepherd sniffed him. He said "The Shepherd was in my dog's face, and my dog doesn't like that." Well, the Shepherd probably didn't like being growled at and took exception to that. Every one has to be in control of their own dog, no matter what the size, breed, etc. If each individual dog owner was responsible, there'd be far fewer problems.

PDQ Bach wrote a cantata on this issue entitled 'Wachet Arf'. (Subtitled 'Let Sleeping Dogs Lie') Shows how long the problem has been around.

Both nature(genetics) and nurture(experience) affect the behaviour of all species. Geneticists have been able to triple the lifespan of worms by selecting for that specific-trait. Pitbulls are dogs that have been bred by humans for the violence/aggressiveness trait. A "Pitbull" by definition is genetically bred(artificial-evolution) to be violent/aggressive, hence the behaviour will exhibit such tendencies. I agree with Kit, "species-ownership" is not healthy for the animals, animals have evolved to live in their respective eco-systems not in apartments, houses, zoos or any other human-created enclosures. Psychologically these animals are unhealthy. It is especially cruel that our MPs and MLAs allow companies to use chimpanzees(genetically 99% same as humans) for advertising, lab experiments, and so forth.

Those who argue against the ban and think they are dog lovers are beyond my understanding. There will never be enough homes for those poor dogs, bred poorly and mistreated from the beginning. The female is bred too often and for too long, among other mistreatment. And, we all know how badly a whole lot of them are treated. By making them illegal it will save some suffering. Of course some will still be bred, but with the market drying out it will be few. What a life people are so willing to condemn these poor animals to with no hope. For every dog rescued how many languish and have to be put down after months and years of pain? A dog left alone for long periods of time is in terrible pain. Meanwhile all the financial resourses at the SPCA are spent on this problem leaving some other animals in the lurch via not investigating all cases etc. All fighting dog breeds should be banned and existing dogs fixed and muzzled when out and allowed to die of old age. Not that muzzling is 100%. At Kits point a few years ago a muzzled pit bull took after a senior with her two old dogs killing one of them after knocking it's muzzle off. It killed that dog in spite of the many bystanders trying to intervene. Those are stories not in the papers. I often see a women past middle age walking two HUGE Bull Mastiffs, bigger than I am! There is no way she could control them even though they have choke chains. Thankfully, she has started walking them with muzzles. Did they have an incident or she is being considerate of other city residents - who knows. The right to own a breed does not over-ride the public's right to be safe and to FEEL safe on their public streets and this feeling of having the right to own a Pit Bull etal, or belief in their inherent docile temperment, does not make up for the endless suffering of those abused, unwanted, unsocialized animals. I have met some lovely pit bulls. Two are the dogs the homeless fellow on forth owns. I am never afraid of them and he is totally respectful of other people's fear of them. If all owners were like he appears to be with them, there would be fewer attacks. But, they're not and something tells me he wouldn't tolerate an animal who was hostile, unlike some owners who encourage their animals to be that way. Maybe one day, we'll have a society again which cares about it's people and animals. But, when there is huge debate over the most common sense things, I confess, I am not that hopeful.

How many free spay and neuter programs could the SPCA run which in turn would reduce suffering with a fraction of the money spent on 'fighting dogs' Maybe they could have a travelling van which gives vet care to homeless people's animals. Many cities have free vet clinics at their shelters for poor people. Our SPCA doesn't. Reduced fees which are more than some vets. Let's take away the market for these dogs.

I didn't read all the comments, so I may be repeating something here. Anyway...regardless of what approach we take in the short run (banning, etc.), I might also suggest the government impose a law prohibiting the breeding of various breeds of dogs (and maybe also the humans that take great pleasure parading pitbulls around in public areas). There is no societal need for individuals to `own' fighting bred dogs. ANYWHERE! Unless they wish to jumpstart the underground economic spinoffs (i.e. gambling, puppy mills, and dog collar stores) from dogs fighting in pits. And why do we have dogs bred for racing strutting around on a leash downtown?

I would prefer people be able to own any breed of dog they so wish as long as they accept all responsibility for its actions. What is required perhaps is some form of insurance all owners would (mandatory), take out when paying for the dog licence. Why is it I cannot drive my small little car around the block without liability insurance, yet others can amble down the street with an animal bred to fight and kill (just as dead as cars can)? The insurance would be based on breeds, all of whom could easily be rated according to potential threat to others. Of course this all rests on the premise of tougher enforcement at the local level and zero tolerance for dogs that injure by police and courts. Owners must be held fully responsible and be punished if their four-legged gun wasn't properly secured and an attack occurs causing injury. If someone drives a car carelessly, has an accident and seriously harms another, the driver can be charged criminally, if it can be shown the driver was reckless.

I have known many dogs of this breed some good some not so good. Avantage of a dog of this breed is they will protect you and your household to the death if need be but mostly to death is not nessesary. I know a cross breed of friend of mine and it would lick you to death if you broke in to the house. These dogs were breed to fight other dogs not people. I would have one for a pet because of their loyalty and affection. If you spoil these dogs from the start they become big over sized saps that want to lick you all the time if you encourage their inherent instinct to fight then they will be high maintainance, its the same thing with a border collie if you don't get em out to run they're going to start to chase cars because of the strong instinct to heard. I trust a pitbull more than I trust a Shepard and ya that was the mean dog of the day when I was growing up the media had tons of stories of shepard attacks just like we have pitbull attacks today. banning the breed does not solve the problem the dirt bags will still have mean dogs.

Yes, you can also breed fascism by spreading hate filled lies to the public. You can also spread syphilis, flus, and AIDS. We don't say `Well, a few flu viruses are alright, as long as they are in the right hands and don't spread too much' do we. The virus is BAD! As simple as that. A dog bred solely for the purpose of attacking other living things for the entertainment of others is a poor bred dog, unless your a lucky gambler, and we live in a Dickensian time. It's silly. Yes, punish the owners, the doughheads who walk around in wife beaters with these gun-substitutes, the most severely (not death - like the dogs); but we should de-breed the aggressiveness out of these animals. WHY NOT?

There is a rather simple solution. Make the owners of dogs criminally responsible for their pet's actions. If your dog attacks someone then you should be criminally reponsible the same way as if you assualted them. We have had too many vicious dog attacks to not make owners responsible for their pet's behaviour.

A ban on pit bulls would not have saved the few who have been killed or seriously injured by a dog. Attacks happen from all breeds.The rotten dog of the day used to be the Doberman. Public perception changes. The media often report any dog attack as by what "appeared to be a pit bull." Often that's not the case. Trouble is, it's hard to make a retraction. The skating rink incident (no blood drawn, and the kid looked quite happy on the news after the alleged attack) referred to in a previous post is an example. The original report said "pit bulls." Now that they've actually talked to the owner, the media reports say "dog." There's a bias in the media, and we can all see its effect in the responses. Several of the posters comment that the dogs are bred to kill. No, they're not. They were -- like many, many other breeds -- encouraged to fight, not kill. And owners (like the article at the top of this page states) were supposed to go in and break up the fight, without risking harm. Any dog that demonstrated human agression was killed. How many other breeds can you say that for? People think that all owners of pit bulls are thugs and abuse their dogs. Wrong again. If anything, the bad rap of the pit bull leads to a lot of ultra-responsible people owning the dogs. Every step out the door is a public relations campaign. Sure there are a few bad ones, but can you paint everyone with the same brush? To those dog owners in favour of the ban: Is there a reason you don't want to see ALL dog owners have to go through mandatory testing, licensing and insuring of dogs? Why are you scapegoating the pit bull? That makes me suspicious.

Yes, Chris! Dog responsibility across the board. A fair approach is definitely the best approach. But, don't we have such a provision in the law already? It's unfortunate that rather than enforce legislation already in place, we have to bring about more legislation. Of course, it does give politicians more air time.

An easier solution: No person allowed to own a dog unless the dog is registered and insured (against attacks on the public etc.). Failure to register and insure an offence. Registration and insurance to be displayed openly on dog collar. This is neat and simple, and treats dog ownership just like car ownership.

I have a pit bull, and he is very friendly and loves people. I think dogs are like people,if we made him mean he'd be dangerous. BUT he lives inside with us, loves to be groomed and petted. knows not to do certain things and just wants to make us happy. I'm not saying that I'd let him roam, I know he would scare people that don't know him. and i wouldn't want that, especially if it were a kid If the people that own these dogs love them and treat them good and take the time to teach them there wouldn't be so much bad talk on them. any type of dog can be made dangerous the same goes for good dogs.the only valid complaint I can make against pit bulls is that they cost a lot to own and go through $5 chew toys in no time.

Lisa, if you read my post, I think I specifically stated that we need to crack down on all the factors that contribute to vicious dogs...INCLUDING backyard breeders and puppy mills who abuse their animals and fail to carefully breed for obedience/responsiveness. A lot of the "bad" dogs are bought by people who go to a shady backyard breeder, get a poorly bred dog (be it a pitbull, mastiff, boxer, rottie or doberman), and abuse it to make it vicious. Responsible breeders require that pets be spayed/neutered and many also do home inspections and require that the owners take dog obedience classes to make sure they can handle the animal properly. The free spay and neuter is a great idea - I would like to see spaying and neutering required by law unless you pay a whopping big fee to run a breeding operation. Plus, any licensed breeding operation should be inspected on a regular basis to ensure that they comply with all rules and regulations on the humane treatment of their animals. An example: I have friends who own a Rhodesian Ridgeback, another so-called "vicious" breed. This dog came from a reputable breeder who is licensed and regulated. The sale contract stated that he was to be neutered at the appropriate age and proof of the operation returned to the breeder. Failure to do so meant that the sale was void and the breeder would take the dog back. The owners were also required to attend a minimum number of obedience classes with him and several home inspections were made. Their dog is well mannered, obedient and has never shown any aggression, dog or human, with the single exception of when my friend's wife was threatened by a stranger and the dog growled at him. Contrast this to an acquaintance who bought a retriever (a so-called "safe" breed by many people) from a backyard breeder, never bothered to neuter him or take him through obedience classes, and left the dog tied all day every day. They put him down for aggression last month because he was starting to snap. Banning a breed is not the solution. Banning irresponsible owners and breeders is.

Was in the park yesterday with my SHiba, and this lovely dog came up to play. This dog was loving kind and friendly. He was equiped with a 2 year old in tow and a young mum. Otis is a 12 year old Pt Bull--my first encounter with one. He is a loving kind animal with a great family. Why ban the dog? Why not instead ban the owners who abuse them and make them aggressive

Chris H has an alluring point about liability but I would question the probability of actually being able to extract meaningful financial penalties out of the Vietnamese refugee whose dogs are guarding the grow-show, or the Hell's Angel associate who set him up in business. Rhea makes a good point about being bitten by other breeds. I have in fact known two pitties and they were very nice, and have been chomped by a Pekinese and a multi-poo thing, both of whom were little jerks. The problem is that if the pitties had done the biting, I would be typing my blithe remarks using a prosthesis. As for Canada geese, why not eat them? Because who's going to want to catch them? Individually useless, they are arrogant and brave in large numbers, kind of like going to Metrotown.

the only breeds that seem to want to attack me and viciously rip my ass off, is chihuahuas, and all those minuature sized dogs with owners with their heads up their asses who couldnt care less because to them their dogs arent vicious, just "protective"/ so is pitt bulls are banned what does it say about city council? wasting our tax money and peoples time to listen to bs about the single breed being vicious and not the breeders who enforce the anger into the poor animals through abuse and torture. only people who know and love and who choose to understand the breed behind the hype will oppose the ban for sure. ive had a pitt for one year now and shes been raised since a pup to be obedient and friendly, i havent met a single person who didnt fall in love with my dog and her personality. banning the breed will just justify more retarded dog breeders to create aggressive breeds. maybe the city council should think about what they recall as vicious dogs, such as dobermans, mastiffs pitts and so on, the pattern seems to be in the breeds which have an intimidating look on the outside, but in my experience in having half those dogs, seems to be the opposite on the inside becuase it all depends on the owner's devotion to the dog and helping build its personality skills with other people. dog owners and non dog owners should really learn about the breed more before you give me a nasty look for having such an amazing breed for a dog and look at themselves for what their being disgusted by, a well raised, lovable dog. people shouldnt believe everything they hear about this ban and think about what the city council is smoking to even think about the ban.

anyone who is all for drug addicts to be given free needles with our taxes really dont deserve to be taken seroisuly at all, or given the position of any authority unto whether or not i can keep my dog becuase of her breed background, screw the history of my dog's breed, why not look aroudn at the crime and other things i need my dog to protect me from, i mean i know for sure a little chihuahua isnt going to run after some punk who steals my purse or brekas into my house, its actually the other way around, i have to protect her. screw the ban.

to the person who seems to have suc a strong opinion and such a big mouth about blaming the owner for not putting their dog on a leash and saying the protect "grow operations?" F**K you! you obviously dont know anything straight about who owns what kind of breed of dog for sure so dont be calling me a little old lady or some freaking pot head, i own a pitt, and they arent called "bulls", this obviously shows your lack of knowledge on the breed at all. you just talk like a person who aint got a dog or even a fish, you sound like you cant even take care of yourself, so dont go dissing me for having a certain breed of dog.

As a gay male, Councillor Stevenson of all people should be well aware of issues such as intolerance and descrimination. Seems ironic that he is taking the stand that he is. If we were all so narrow-minded, he wouldn't be in his current position on city council.

well, to anyone who thinks banning the breed of a certain dog will help bring down the level of violence, i have to say that they need to watch way more news and study how their tax money is being spent..if your willing to let the government spend your tax money on banning a breed of dogs which are 99 percent of times harmelss and yet allow criminals to go back on the streets, you need to get your story straight.. How does everyone want to reach ultimate safty and happiness...banning everything that seems dengerous to certain people would mean that the majority of population has to sacrifice its freedom of speech and the democracy of this country to satisfy a small manirity...and for one I am not willing to do that

Scarphace, it gets even worse than that. Ontario's proposed legislation gives bylaw enforcers the ability to enter a home if they have reason to believe there MAY be a pit bull inside. WITHOUT A WARRANT. People in favour of the ban should really be concerned about what they're agreeing to. It's pretty scary stuff, from a human rights point of view.

Ban them, people get these dogs because they have the reputation as being four legged weapons. The dogs are used to intimidate people, plain and simple.

Nice try, Lawrence, but the people I know who have them did tons of research on the breeds and searched them out for their good nature and lack of agression towards humans. Check the American Kennel Association site for a description of the dogs lumped into the "pit bull" category, if you don't believe me. Do you think Helen Keller got hers to because it was a "four-legged weapon?" Do some research from reputable sources and then do some posting. Besides, if a the "pit bull" is not a breed, how do you propose going about banning it? Do you really want your tax dollars tied up in court battles when people refute legislation filled with such a loophole? Put tax money into something effective (responsible ownership for all -- similar to Calgary's legislation).

BK Lawrence is correct.You may want consider changing your moniker from BK to BS.

And you base your opinion on what, C-gull?

perspec tive

Rhea, I hear you. I wish it were that way. You're right the problem would be eliminated. I think with irresponsible breeding, the Pit Bull may not even be the same animal it was 40 years ago. Anyway, I wish all animals were loved and treated well and no matter what side of the ban we are on, it looks like we all agree on that. :)

bk tons of research, come on BK thats a bit of a stretch isn't,as to what lawrence stated I fully agree,and I love dogs.

Any sources you'd like to share, C-Gull? Books? Statistics? Researched reports? Lawrence just made a gross generalization. Those are pretty easy to make, but a lot harder to back up. I'd be interested in hearing your argument. Maybe you can convince me :-)

About the research, C-Gull. 2 years for one, 8 months for another, and several months, if not longer, for the third. It's quite common. One partner in a relationship likes the dogs; the other believes the "pit bull" hysteria. Hence a substantial amount of time is devoted to research. So, not literally tons, of course, but several months' worth. There are a lot of good books out there for those who like to research before making up their minds. Once you ask questions, you'll find that vets have no problems with the dogs, either.

I propose we ban large trucks/SUV's/the most moronic vehicle of all- the Hummer (ugh!!); those too are used to intimidate people- and can kill. Not to mention the idiocy of even trying to park one of those ridiculous vehicles...

On todays news mentally challenged person attacked by pit bull what does tons of research do for that person I know a girl who took her half pit bull lab to vet he ordered her out of building and not to return with that dog there all killers

Yikes. Come up for air, Liz.

Fi, a large truck/SUV/WON'T attack people on its own and does not need a leash. Can't distinguish between an animal and a machine? I don't want to punish the owner and kill the dog after it moled someone. I just want to prevent it from happening as much as possible. Lying in your couch and say, "...banning is not the answer..." certainly improves nothing. It is not surprising to see owners say, "My dog causes no trouble. It never bites." Of course, it is your dog and it knows you. But you can't just conclude that your dog is ok with everyone. When a pit bull bites, it can be too late. I hate to see owner allow their dogs unleashed in leash area. You just can't deny the fact that Pit Bull appears on the news much more often and the injury it causes can be so huge. The fact that it bites and does not release is the critical point. Spaniel also bites, but the harm is much less. Hey, remember, owning Pit Bull is not a must. Why put other people at risk?

Fill those SUV's with pit bulls and lawyers and banish them to Alberta.

Who knows for sure the dog was a pit bull? It's still at large. I agree with Fi in that MVAs cause more deaths and injuries than dog attacks. Why not ban cars of all types? Did you check the link that's posted earlier on in this discussion? It leads to some interesting info.

In the article it is said that no other dog comes as close in devotion... that appears to be part of the problem. If the dog senses danger -- rightly or wrongly -- to its family it will defend them to the death. It is like going for a walk with a loaded gun.

This is, for the most part, a really balanced and thoughtful debate. I am leaning toward the argument that irresponsible owners and breeders should be controlled, not dog breeds. However, I have noticed that dog breeds do what they are bred to do in many cases (for example, I met a collie once who tried to "herd" a group of people). This makes me uneasy about dogs who are bred to attack. I'd like to hear more solid documentation on this before I'd support a breed-based ban, however. BK, I don't think you read what Leo said. He wasn't talking about dogs growling or snapping. He was talking about a pit bull roaring down a driveway to attack an elderly dog on a leash! If I, metaphorically, "growl" at someone who's "in my face" does that give him the right to beat me up? As for "Kit" and "taking" animals as pets. Rightly or wrongly cats and dogs have been bred for millenia to be dependent on humans. How does Kit know that a dog who is bonded with its human companions is going to be happy in the "environment" created for it without human companionship. Dogs can become very attached to humans and will grieve when separated from them. In a "natural" environment elderly pets would be preyed upon by the young and strong. (My parents' old cat was killed by a stray cat who wandered into their yard.) It isn't "natural" for humans to be wage slaves and live in an urban environment either, but not everyone would be happy being dumped into nature to fend for themselves. Get a grip animal rights fundamentalists! You know, deep down, that "liberating" pets will never work.

This is, for the most part, a really balanced and thoughtful debate. I am leaning toward the argument that irresponsible owners and breeders should be controlled, not dog breeds. However, I have noticed that dog breeds do what they are bred to do in many cases (for example, I met a collie once who tried to "herd" a group of people). This makes me uneasy about dogs who are bred to attack. I'd like to hear more solid documentation on this before I'd support a breed-based ban, however. BK, I don't think you read what Leo said. He wasn't talking about dogs growling or snapping. He was talking about a pit bull roaring down a driveway to attack an elderly dog on a leash! If I, metaphorically, "growl" at someone who's "in my face" does that give him the right to beat me up? As for "Kit" and "taking" animals as pets. Rightly or wrongly cats and dogs have been bred for millenia to be dependent on humans. How does Kit know that a dog who is bonded with its human companions is going to be happy in the "environment" created for it without human companionship. Dogs can become very attached to humans and will grieve when separated from them. In a "natural" environment elderly pets would be preyed upon by the young and strong. (My parents' old cat was killed by a stray cat who wandered into their yard.) It isn't "natural" for humans to be wage slaves and live in an urban environment either, but not everyone would be happy being dumped into nature to fend for themselves. Get a grip animal rights fundamentalists! You know, deep down, that "liberating" pets will never work.

This is, for the most part, a really balanced and thoughtful debate. I am leaning toward the argument that irresponsible owners and breeders should be controlled, not dog breeds. However, I have noticed that dog breeds do what they are bred to do in many cases (for example, I met a collie once who tried to "herd" a group of people). This makes me uneasy about dogs who are bred to attack. I'd like to hear more solid documentation on this before I'd support a breed-based ban, however. BK, I don't think you read what Leo said. He wasn't talking about dogs growling or snapping. He was talking about a pit bull roaring down a driveway to attack an elderly dog on a leash! If I, metaphorically, "growl" at someone who's "in my face" does that give him the right to beat me up? As for "Kit" and "taking" animals as pets. Rightly or wrongly cats and dogs have been bred for millenia to be dependent on humans. How does Kit know that a dog who is bonded with its human companions is going to be happy in the "environment" created for it without human companionship. Dogs can become very attached to humans and will grieve when separated from them. In a "natural" environment elderly pets would be preyed upon by the young and strong. (My parents' old cat was killed by a stray cat who wandered into their yard.) It isn't "natural" for humans to be wage slaves and live in an urban environment either, but not everyone would be happy being dumped into nature to fend for themselves. Get a grip animal rights fundamentalists! You know, deep down, that "liberating" pets will never work.

Thanks, Anne. My point is that dog dynamics in general are unpredictable. The problem in the scenario Leo describes is not the breed of the dog, but the dog being off leash to begin with. It bothers me when people assume their dog will behave a certain way. I have neighbours who let their dogs just run around free. That's not acceptable. Maybe the dogs are not aggressive, but they could approach another dog that growls (some leashed dogs feel threatened when approached by off-leash animals)and respond to the challenge. Even worse, the dog could jut out into traffic after a squirrel or something and potentially cause an accident. I would just like all owners to be responsible, whether their dog is big or small. Rather than waste time and money banning breeds, municipalities should crack down on the non-spaying and neutering of dogs (unless of course they are registered for breeding purposes). The majority of dog attacks are caused by intact animals. Why isn't this reported in the news, rather than guessing at breeds and creating a discriminating and oppressive environment? I am totally opposed to breed bans, 100% in favour of responsibility and accountability. Make stricter regulations for owners of dogs of all types, and I'm all for it. Blaming a breed is just a smokescreen. It won't solve anything and creates a false sense of security. Anyways, back to regular life, everyone. Thanks for the discussion :-)

Do your research people. Bully breeds have a bad name, but have you all considered the possibility that the owners are to blame for out of control dogs? Did it ever occur to you that any dog who is abused and mistreated wil be more likely to be aggressive? What about the child who was attacked in his own home by a golden retriever? How many of you own golden labs and retrievers huh? Read up , study up, and you will realize that you have the wrong perception of our bully breed

Unable to own a dog due to a suppressive Landlord/Tenancy act, I'm a volunteer dog walker for the SPCA. Some of the friendliest, most intelligent and obedient dogs I've walked have been Pit Bulls. They're also the biggest sucks. Nothing like a belly rub to subdue the "savage beast"! And then there's the Gangsta mentalility. Nothing like a mental midget to create an extension of it's empty cranium. These nimrods are the lowest common denominator. Too bad we can't ban them! But we do have the tools to deal with issues such as this. We just don't have Politicos with the common sense or guts to do it. It's much easier to jump on the bandwagon when there is a upset captive audience than it is to work behind the scenes trying to create a society where these incidents would be rare or non-existant. Banning particular breeds will not solve this problem. Education and strict enforcement of common sense rules and regulations would accomplish much more. I have never owned a Pit Bull, but if I'm ever in a position where I can have a dog, a Pit Bull will be at the top of my list of preferances. And I'll be getting it at the SPCA.

Unable to own a dog due to a suppressive Landlord/Tenancy act, I'm a volunteer dog walker for the SPCA. Some of the friendliest, most intelligent and obedient dogs I've walked have been Pit Bulls. They're also the biggest sucks. Nothing like a belly rub to subdue the "savage beast"! And then there's the Gangsta mentalility. Nothing like a mental midget to create an extension of it's empty cranium. These nimrods are the lowest common denominator. Too bad we can't ban them! But we do have the tools to deal with issues such as this. We just don't have Politicos with the common sense or guts to do it. It's much easier to jump on the bandwagon when there is a upset captive audience than it is to work behind the scenes trying to create a society where these incidents would be rare or non-existant. Banning particular breeds will not solve this problem. Education and strict enforcement of common sense rules and regulations would accomplish much more. I have never owned a Pit Bull, but if I'm ever in a position where I can have a dog, a Pit Bull will be at the top of my list of preferances. And I'll be getting it at the SPCA.

Animals do not have rights because they cannot fulfill the responsibilities that go with those rights. Go after the owners. In my opinion, it's irresponsible to have a dog in an urban area. Too many people, too much traffic. And urban dog owners don't all clean up after their dogs. Owning a dog should be a priviledge, and owners should have to get a license themselves. Make them shoulder the full costs to society that their dog ownership incurs, such as the damage caused to public property by dog pee (posts, plants, park benches). One day, when I live in the country, I'd like to have a beagle.

Education won't work, a lot of people who have these dogs are not fond of that education stuff. I research animals and write about it from time to time. All I need to know about pit bulls is when one of them rips up somebodys face the owners universally say '' he was such a sweet dog, we can't believe he would do such a thing ''

If you research them Lawrence, do you verify the breeds or do you just take somebody's version? Sometimes (The Langley couple this month and Ontario skating rink and paper boy stories come to mind)the initial report says "witnesses think it looked like a pit bull type," (How scientific) Then we find out a few days later that it wasn't a pit bull after all. Of course that information you have to search for. I don't believe you do research Lawrence. If you do, you only research one side of things -- the side you want to believe in. Besides a lot of "attacks" aren't really attacks. The boy who was "attacked" by the bull mastiffs in Ontario recently (the dogs were initially called pit bulls in error)had scratches on his legs. Scratches? Maybe they were caused by a pit-cat!

Calgary has an impressive record for minimizing problems with dogs and owners. Their legislation is non-breed specific (http://www.calgary.ca/docgallery/bu/cityclerks/23m89.pdf -- direc t link)and they have an active education program. Why don't we give this a try in the Lower Mainland? It will cut down on bad owners and problem dogs of any breed.

pit bull- definition......... killer dog pit bull owner- definition.........idiot

= morris definition

Okay, maybe I should've fleshed out my solution and saved you all time. I said "don't ban pit bulls! Instead, ban people from owning them!" Let's look at another menace on the street: the vehicle. The vehicle isn't banned, but people are banned from owning them... unless they have 1) an operating license where they must prove competency to obtain it; 2) adequate insurance to cover some people's inevitable negligence in the operation of the vehicle; and 3) periodic check-ups (in the lower mainland) to ensure its health and subsequently that of others. Alas, more expensive bureaucracy should be foisted upon us as a result of some people's inevitable shortcomings... like gun control laws, where guns aren't banned, but people are banned from owning them, unless....

How about a license for shooting pit bulls and other violent breeds and better yet a license for shooting their owners. Now that would work wonders!

Having owned a pit bull since it was a pup my son's best friend had the most frightening experience of her young life recently. She had befriended a stray kitten that they found freezing to death in their Prince George neighbourhood. The dog and the kitten got along famously, even sleeping together and licking each other. One day, as he cuddled the kitten and did her laundry in the basement, the pit bull, for no obvious reason began to act strange and suddenly, with no warning leapt up and grabbed the kitten from her arms and in front of her disbelieving eyes tore the kitten to shreds . . . . God only knows why. The pit bull was immediately euathanized by her husband and a 30:06 caliber bullet . . . . Up to this point my son had been a staunch defender of the breed. I told him that his son who was about to be born would never be near that breed of dog, only over my dead body. Fortunately this incident occured before my grandson was born and my son now is in total agreement with me, ban them and any other breed these testosterone challenged cowards come up with!

See one- sorry my point went RIGHT over your head- at least some people got it :) And OK- as far as this nonsense about "some dog owners don't pick up after their dogs"... as one who walks her dog 3x a day (and have, consistently, for 6.5 yrs on two continents), let me tell YOU- I see a heck of a lot more coffee cups, cigarette packages, tissue, garbage, hell- used condoms, McD etc. paper bags, and so on, littering the streets of this fair city than I have EVER seen doggie doo. To the point where I unconsciously pick up other people's litter on my way to the garbage bin (since I'm heading there with a baggie anyway) EVERY day. (well, cups mostly). My friend pointed this out to me the other day, "What are you doing?" she said. I don't even notice I do it anymore. People see what they want to see. Be glad this isn't most of the planet where thousands of strays would be wandering free sh**ing everywhere- then you'd have something to complain about.

Steven B- you sound like a very nice person :) Those dogs love you! And Kit- that last bit you wrote about people's problems being bundled and transferred to their pets- I was just thinking the same thing about people and their kids...

Fi can I have some of what ever it is that your smoking

So am I to conclude that all the women chopped and torn to shreds at a particular farm were hacked up by Pit Bulls? Are all the missing Downtown Eastside Women the victims of pit bull attack? Are pit bulls mugging the seniors and stealing their pension checques?

Most violent crime is committed by heterosexual males over the age of thirty. I propose a special license fee, leash laws, muzzles and probably handcuffs...anyone who wants to keep one of them as a house pet will have to fill out a form, explain WHY they want so dangerous an animal, and be totally legally responsible for it's tacky behaviour in public places. Permission would only be granted when proof of neutering was presented. Hi, Fi...I have three dogs, a poodly mutt, a boxer and a walking Canadian question I hauled off a beach because she was starving to death. But my daughter had a "pit bull". We called her "Angel". She was very hard to train, very stubborn, but once trained was totally trustworthy and at least my daughter was safe in your crime-riddled city. The dog was a great deterrent to those other dangerous and violent perpetrators, the above mentioned over-thirty heterosexual males, the ones who drop daterape drugs into women's drinks, the ones who rape, mug, assault....look at the statistics...

When I was seven, the dog that I had grown up with shredded my face. Seventeen stitches in total. I startled it when I came home and woke him up. That dog was a German Shepherd. My current dog is a resued pit bull. Any dog can bite, or act irrationally. We can sit here and swap stories of horrors that dogs can inflict 'til the cows come home. You know what? It's irrelevant. We as a society want to keep dogs. We are willing (the majority of us, not the lunatic fringe) to take the risks in light of the benefits that dog companionship provides. What we want to do is minimize the risks. I repeat dogs will attack humans so long as we keep dogs as pets, and it is an acceptable risk in my opinion. So the real question is how best to minimize the problems. Breed Specific Legislation is not the best way. Attacking the problems of abusive owners and puppy mills/backyard breeders is.

Its really simple. Dont have chldren.Dogs fill the emotional void. Then u get to buy stuff, lots of stuff. The two most amazing denials involve dog owners(he's only playing/harmless etc) and SUV's that djont pollute or bully smaller cars. A plague on both your houses

Its really simple. Dont have chldren.Dogs fill the emotional void. Then u get to buy stuff, lots of stuff. The two most amazing denials involve dog owners(he's only playing/harmless etc) and SUV's that djont pollute or bully smaller cars. A plague on both your houses

Deeley says “I’ll go to my grave with one." She's welcome to choose how she dies. I just don't want to see another child go to their grave, killed by a vicious dog. Bring on the ban!

Harvey, how many children in Canada have gone to their graves because of a pit bull? Quoting from Rick Smith, Toronto Star: "Since 1983, 23 people have died across this country as a result of dog attacks, 23 people over 21 years. 55 dogs were involved in those attacks. Only one – only one of those 55 dogs would be banned under Ontario Attorney-General Michael Bryant’s proposed so-called “pit bull” legislation – one dog in the last 23 years." How would a ban on pit bulls work?

There is absolutely no defence, no argument, no excuse what so ever for owning or wanting to own a pit bull period.

Tell that to the Little Rascals, Bruce.

my comment is how many canadians are killed by pitbulls?

tell me i need to know plz

booger, check the post by logic a few postings above yours.

As a non-dog-lover last year I would have agreed with the ban. I was knocked over by a well meaning dog as a child and haven't liked them since then...particularly large dogs. This summer a good friend of mine got a pit bull and, as usual I was very wary and didn't want to hang out with him when he had the dog along. Finally one day we took the dog for a walk on the beach and I realized how incorrect my views had been. This pit bull is the quietest, most well behaved dog I have ever met. A week later I had two golden retrievers practically attack me...should I want to ban them? Or maybe since black cats are "bad luck" we should ban them? This is discrimination and we must fight against that in all cases where decisions are being made based on visual markers.

I am fearful every time I step out of the house with my two small kids - will the next attack be my child?. Or perhaps my elderly mother whose knees are too bad to run. It has gotten so that I carry bear spray and big sticks to have something to fend off the dogs while using the city parks. Pit bulls, Rottweilers, and other menacing dogs are allowed to run loose, unleashed and unmuzzled, and we are all expected to put up with the risk. I see it as akin to letting people walk the streets with a loaded assault weapon. The debate is the same - do guns kill people or people kill people? Well having lots of guns around makes it easier for people to kill people, the same with dangerous dogs. Vancouver dog owners have a sickening culture of entitlement - their dogs' right to roam freely overides everyone else's right to walk the streets and use the parks in safety. Owners routinely get indignant or enraged when they are asked to control their dogs. Wake up Vancouver - how many more deaths and injuries are necessary before the right to public safety is put first. A ban may not solve all the problems but its a start! Combined with steep fines for off leash dogs and jail time for irresponsible owners whose dogs cause harm, it could help make our streets and parks safe again.

Hanna, We've had 23 dog-related deaths in all of Canada, over a period of 21 years! That's about one death per year. You should be more afraid of being hit by a car at a crosswalk. You might want to consider treatment/counseling for your severe anxiety. I feel sorry for your children who are being raised in a environment filled with paranoia.

? - I AM afraid of being hit at a crosswalk, which is why I DON'T spend a lot of time there. I do expect to be able to spend time in public parks - that is what they are for. Your stats point to more than one completely outrageous, unnecessary, and horrific death of a child or adult every year. A death that happens because of someone's selfish desire to have a vicious dog. Those are 23 deaths too many, and are accompanied by hundreds more injuries and near deaths that leave people scarred forever. Your dismissal of real concerns with pithy sarcasm shows exactly the perverse sense of entitlement and lack of concern for others common among many dog owners that I mentioned. So we should accept as the natural order of things that we may just be killed by vicious dogs on city streets and be thankful the rates are so modest? Denying a problem exists is stupid, not helpful.

Someone many postings back mentioned Calgary's legislation and enforcement as an effective tool. I live in Calgary, but used to be in Vancouver. I am AMAZED at the difference here. I NEVER see off leash dogs in parks or walking on the street, and the off-leash areas are packed all day. I don't know what kind of tough enforcement they have here, but it works, so Vancouver should get on it. I hear Hanna though, I felt exactly the same way when I lived in Vancouver with my kids. It was terrible, I couldn't let my kids walk to the car by themselves because a neighbour would routinely walk his off-leash Rottweiler past my house. Any protest of mine was met with the 'my dog is a sweetheart' line. I had to call animal enforcement on him a few times. My son is terrified of big dogs having been rolled as a kid in the park, and who knows what kind of reaction he would provoke in the dog. Now life is so much less stressful not having to worry about off-leash dogs (and their often aggressive owners).

When you consider the millions of dogs and Canadians out there, yes the problem is very small. Plus, we don't know how many of these attacked were unprovoked. Stay in your home, Hanna, but be careful not to breathe in too many toxic fumes from household cleansers--or perhaps it's too late for that.

Now I see why your moniker is a "?" Is there anyone home? Love to hear your definition of a "provoked" dog attack. This is a new height in vicious dog denial. So the humans involved were often to blame for "provoking" the attack in these cases of death and injury. Screw your head on right, you're talking nonsense.

Interesting to hear about the Calgary situation from someone who lives there. I live in New West, and I've never been afraid of dogs around here, nor have my kids. I can't imagine why Vancouver would be any different, except I hear that their off-leash parks aren't enclosed, which is rather silly if you ask me. But, Hanna, ? is right in that if a dog kills a rapist who enters your home, don't you think the dog was provoked? And justified? I certainly do. What's more, those 23 fatalities, if you read the quote above, are from 55 different breeds. What were those breeds? Why single out one breed when 54 others have killed as well? A breed ban doesn't solve problems. I want to know more about Calgary's solution. No breed bans and no dog problems. Sounds pretty good to me!

I honestly thought Hannah's first post was a joke. By the third I realized she is serious. Yikes... My first thought when that little Chinese girl in Toronto was kidnapped OUT OF HER BEDROOM while her parents slept?? "Damn- if only they had had a dog". (Or correct me- was it a dog that did it?) You had better start researching the amount of pedophiles living next door to you (you too, Cheryl- don't let your guard down just because you are in the land of 'dog parks') because you're going to be so busy fearing rarities (and buying the media hype by the spoonfull) you won't even notice when that psycho plucks your child off the street- s/he'll probably be on parole or something- and walks off with your child. Get a grip. My dog was sitting in front of a restaurant today waiting while my friend and I had lunch and he was swarmed by a group of children. He turned his back on them, then backed up against the door in fear (I keep him away from kids because he has been PROVOKED too many times in the past) and one child insisted on petting him. I started to head outside to ask them to leave him alone (he's medium-sized and puppyish looking) and yet he allowed the child to pet him a few times and then they all walked away. I was impressed- by my dog's good behaviour; and quite unimpressed by the teacher (or whoever was with the children) following two blocks behind.

Bruce- I may be smoking something but I can still spell- it's "you're" :)

Teaching Kids About Dogs Whether or not they own one, parents need to ensure their children know how to behave around dogs. Even a friendly dog may bite if threatened, angry, afraid or hurt. Dogs protect things they care about, including their food, puppies, favourite toy or owner. They also protect spaces - their own and their owner's. Children need to understand that dogs are protective by nature, and to recognize situations that may frighten or anger a dog. Never leave babies or young children alone with a dog. It is essential to teach children not to play fight with, tease, yell at, or chase dogs or other animals. Kids and their parents should visit the site to learn more about safety around dogs. (teaching fear is not fair to them)

The person who says there is more litter than dog shit lying around should consider the fact that stepping in dog shit is a lot more distressing than stepping in litter. As for Anne Cameron (are you the Anne Cameron who is the lesbian author? If so, I thought you had sympathetic male characters in your books so why are you stereotyping human males over 30 as predators?) Anyhow, I thought it was males between the ages of 18 and 30 who had the biggest testostorone problems. Gee, I'm looking forward to your idea of utopia where I'll have to license my gentle, pushing 60 male partner because he's over 30. He's always had people consider him a threat because he's 6 foot 3 and 250 pounds, but we recently read an account by a black woman about her also black (gentle, large) husband and the kinds of things he's suspected of that made my mate feel a little better about how he's been treated! Grow up Anne C.! The sexual torturers at Abu Ghraib weren't all male! Were you kidding with your posting? If so, it wasn't funny.

It's not the size of the dog that matters, it's the size of the victim

Fi- your yor you'r you're, gee golly Im stoned and I still can spelt, can't make sence of what I wrote, but it's spelt write.

Bruce- good stuff, isn't it?? :)

Bruce- good stuff, isn't it?? :)

Fi, shit! Im starting to fall for you.

If I've learned one thing over the years from my own dogs and as a volunteer at BCSPCA shelters it is: "In most cases it is bad owners and breeders - not bad dogs". I have interacted with numerous pit bulls and pit bull mixes in the shelters -- dogs with tragic backgrounds. They were some of the most intelligent, loving dogs I encountered. It is sad what people have done to the breed; the negative, public perception is also a huge obstacle; but banning them is a mistake. Enforce existing laws. Go after bad owners and irresponsible breeders. Don't just go for the quick, easy fix.

If Judith Stone of Animal Advocates is so dead-set against rescuing pit bulls, she should say so on her website on both the main page, and on the page where she requests money. Instead she implies that she helps rescue all animals (note the quote on the donation page: "Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace." Albert Schweitzer 1875 - 1965), then tells the press that she is pro pit-bull ban. She is lying to the public about her role as an advocate for animals. In reality, Animal Advocates seeks to rehabilitate problem animals(even those that are human-aggressive) regardless of how long it takes to rehabilitate them. It's rather ironic that they would rescue a dog with known agression towards humans, then promote a breed ban against ALL pit bulls, friendly or not. I don't get it, but I certainly won't be giving them a donation.

Down, boy.

Anne C, I agree that a woman needs protection. But dogs are not good city dwellers. They are forest rangers. Mostly they are friendly, but an unknown proportion mysteriously and uncharacteristically chomp a kid. I was chomped. Lots of us are. There has to be a better way to protect our kin and selves. But, maybe not. We're not allowed to have shotguns, and we don't want to live in a Panopticon.

well, at least Stephen Hume agrees with me. I thought of it first, Stephen!

Yes, most people who owns large breeds are responsible, and most large breed dogs will not attack people, left unprovoked. Likewise, most people who indulge in marijuana and cocaine, etc., do not become crazed killers and rapists, and do not cause havoc on our streets and highways. Yet, the latter are illegal, and the fornmer are not. Why is this? Cities (for goodness' sake) are made for people. Dogs (and any "pet" over 20 kg.) belong in the country, where they can work off their energies. If we asre going to insist that large breed dogs live along side us in cities, then let's disperse the cities. Barring that, then outlaw all pets over 20 kg., and licence the rest.

No one who "indulges in marijuana" becomes a crazed killer, you fool.

How come nobody blamed the Liberals for this? :)

This is starting to resemble Same Sex Marriage. Perhaps this could be Steven Harper's Next Hot Button Issue, wot?

She asks what city will have a million dollars to enforce responsible ownership, well what the hell does she think it's gonna cost to euthenize all the pit bulls, not to mention what it would cost to enforce this ignorant bylaw. It will cost staff to go around hunting for the pit bulls cause I garantee you that if I had one I would not just hand it over. I would sue the city which a lot of owners would do, and that will cost way over a million. I promise. To be honest, even though I don't own one, i would contribute money to fight this BSL (as in Bull Sh*t Law)

I wonder, has anyone in favour of banning pit bulls ever heard of the damage that other dogs can do? Or how there are other breeds even more Human agrresive, and stronger, bigger and mor edeadly then the pit bull? There are small dogs that have killed children, chiuaua(sp) and the cutesy wutesy little jack russels among MANY MANY others. Cat's have killed infants because the parent/owner left unattended, let's ban cat's, and stupid prents, and let's ban kids, since we know that there have been kids who have tortured and killed animals, and other kids. Lets ban SUV's because they do damage worse then and austin mini would do. What else, lets ban coyotes, they are in my neighnorhood, loose, and they prey on small animals and children. Try looking up pit bull hero, or positive press, see what you find, but I am sure lots of people wouldn't because they might learn something that would show the pit bull in a positive light, and they might be too scared of that posibilty. Maybe if the city had laws they enforced so the "Hero" dog thief Judy Stone would have nothing to do, maybe this problem could be avoided.

People like Judy Stone will always find something to do...jump on the next bandwagon.

Looks like the city is going to sic the bureaucracy on owners of the knee-high terrorists. But for how long? Usually, not long at all.

you need to put less stuff so we can read it

"Anne": what are we discussing here? My sexual preferences? They have nothing to do with dogs or with heterosexual males. It makes as much sense to ban a particular breed of dog as it makes to ban a particular type of person. IF what we are going to allow is banning of perceived threat, well, I stand by my post, the adult hetero male is more of a threat to everyone's well being than any breed of dog. The last stat's I saw indicate that 95-99% of all violent crime is perpetrated by hetero males. As for dogs, I bring my grandchildren up knowing ANY dog will bite. After all, they have teeth! Yes, even Grandma's dogs will bite if they are frightened, threatened, or hurt. I also teach them to start talking as they are approached by a dog and I try to teach them not to do the approaching. I have been bitten twice in my life, once by my own dog. she is still alive. She got her foot caught, she was in pain, I was trying to release her, she snapped at the pain and got me a good one on the hand. I yelled, she yelped, foot came free and we are still pals. Ron, I have a dog, Skinny Minnie Ambereyes who didn't do well in the woodlands. She was dropped off as a pup, with her two litter mates, and left to the mercies of nature. When I got her she could barely stand, her legs trembled when she did, every bone in her body showed under her dull hide and she knew she was dying. She did not snarl, growl, or bite, I picked her up and carried her back to the boat, brought her home with the idea I'd feed her up a bit so she'd be strong enough to survive the trip out from Tahsis, then I'd turn her (and some money) over to the SPCA to find an adoptive home for her. That was about eight months ago. She's still here. She doesn't know there is anything unnatural in her situation, my friends say she thinks she died and went to heaven. She's here because she gets VERY upset when she's not here. Handing her over for adoption would further traumatize her and could well result in a badly socialized animal instead of a gentle and loving one. I knew when I picked her up and put her in the boat that I was risking the possibility of assuming a lifetime commitment. She comes when called, knows what "sit" means, what "down" means and what "off" means. I've never managed to convince any dog I've ever had what "stay" means! Minnie has a very big dog yard, all three go in the dog yard when not in the house. When we go for walks they are on leash until we get to the "wasteland" where they can run free and behave like fools. When my infant granddaughter is here Min wants to be near her, will lie with her head where Lilli can grab on to an ear and tug. The boxer is glue'd to the three year old. The poodly mutt is so disgusted she could puke and finds her way under my bed and ignores the kids as much as she possibly can. She has had a couple of bad experiences with other people's kids (haven't we all!). The whole ban-the-breed thing is ridiculous. We have laws, they should be enforced, people who have dangerous animals should be fined. People who abuse animals should not be allowed to have them.

Interesting how emotions run high when the subject under discussion touches on dogs!! Also interesting to me how my sexual preferences are so interesting to other people.

Anne Cameron, I don't give a hoot about your sexual preferences, but thanks for your wonderful rant against a breed ban. I wish more people felt that way, sigh.

Breed specific legislation will in no way solve the vicious dog problem. I believe that I have a proposition that would be much more successful. In addition to laws holding irresponsible owners accountable there should also be a law requiring all pet owners that are not registered breeders to spay or neuter their pets. This would cut out unethical breeding and would also help the unwanted pet population. Also temperment testing should be made mandatory for pet owners periodically as the animals are maturing. By the way for all of those making comments on the dreaded "pitbull" of all dog breeds temperment tested approx. 81% pass depending on where you get your information(some is no doubt outdated)compared to 84% of all American Pit Bull Terriers passing the temperment tests. This is above average for all breeds. As I said depending on where you get your informatin these numbers will change but in every case I have seen American Pit Bull Terriers have one of the highest passing percentages of any breed(usually in the top four). I don't expect anyone to take my word for this but instead do the research yourself. If you choose not to then please do everyone a favor and keep your mislead unfounded hearsay to yourselves until you have the ambition to get a clue. Also though it is true that APBT were bred for pitfighting pit dogs were never bred to be human agressive or vicious. They were instead bred to be extremely docile with humans, intellegent, obiedient, have a high tolerance for pain, an eagerness to please, and the most desirable quality gameness. For those that do not know gameness when refering to an animal is akin to refering to having heart in humans. Or otherwise put unfailling courage and a willingness to succeed against all odds. As I previously stated I do not expect anyone to take my word for any of this. On the flip side I also do not expect someone who has not done their own research to dispute what I have said. If in fact any doubters out there do take the time to actually educate themselves I am very confident that any posts further comments made will be against breed specific legislation!

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html By the way for all of you that think that you can trust the media reports on the breed of dogs responsible for attacks go to the site above and see for yourself how hard it is to properly indentify a true American Pit Bull Terrier. The breeds shown are just a fraction of the breeds commonly refered to generically as "pitbulls".

"pitbull" is just an euphemism for a vicious fucking canine, which is the real problem here. So categorize and sub-categorize them so that the 'canine bureaucracy' is properly justified when approaching an idiot owner who exposes the public to harm or potential harm from these knee-high terrorists.

I agree with you 100%, Roger, (because I, too, have done research.) Here's an interesting article from the Toronto Star: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/L ayout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1108163413629&call_pageid=970599119419

Thank You. That was an interesting article.

You people who post in fear, why not educate yourself outside of TV and newspapers.....get some real education about animals, dogs, breeds of dogs. Band aid resolutions are not resolutions, they chain react to new issues. You rather have bigger more vicious dogs walking around? Look at what the winnipeg ban has caused? Those bad owners now get other breeds who are now up on number of bites. Deal with those indivuduals. Pits are not naturally vicious to people and if you learn more about this 'nanny' breed who takes CARE OF KIDS you would see the ones you hear about are a small fraction of those out there and the ones you hear about are the small fraction of bad ones, the large fraction left are good canine citizens, they are therapy dogs, heros, baby sitters............research unbiasedly and you will see. These dogs were used in the later 1800s to fight each other but if you research that, you see htey had to be good with handlers, humans, or they were disqualified from fighting, which is all gambling anyway, and a human choice, not the dogs choice. These dogs were originally farm helpers. Have you ever owned a dog? A pitbull? you can't know unless and until you do. for these dogs who attacked people to be this way, you cannot imagine the punishment and abuse they endured to become this way. Also know many media stories are not even calling the breed right, many or not pits and they just call htem pits. When was the last time the news could sell a story of another breed biting? That won't sell papers as it is not the 'trend'. IF I beat you daily and burn you and pour acid on you and all that will you not become protective your self? Maybe even crazy? Humans are vicous, unpredictabole and kill for fun....now there is breed to ban! Does that sound sensible? Well of course not, just as a dog breed ban is silly. Make the owners pay dearly not the responsible owners who you don't hear about because thier pits don't do anything wrong. See some true facts here! http://www3.telus.net/public/a6a24762/Ecosite/pitbullpage.htm

Thank you, "get real". In Britain the "pit bull" is "the pram dog". All these people who got dumped on their duffs as kids and now fear all dogs...how many times were you knocked over by other kids without now trembling each time you see a kid..how many times did you fall off your bike? Are you now afraid of spokes? Of pedals. Guardian Angel was never a threat to any child, or any civilized human, either. The things done to pits to make them fight could only be done by humans, no animal would treat another that way. Fighting pits have their ears sliced off at the head, without anaesthetic...they are "hardened" by excersize until they collapse, any cut or bite is cleaned with turpentine to cause tough scar tissue...and other things too disgusting for public forum...most dog bites come from good old Rin Tin Tin and Lassie types...the amount of $$ needed to enforce a pit ban would be better spent enforcing already-existing laws and regulations. "Get real", you obviously know your breeds. Your defence of the pram dogs is passionate, and I bet when it comes to any kind of dog , you're a real softie.

Here is a post from this forum, which some of you pit supporters may want to visit to post yourself, I posted - I am Italianangel, and this post was also included which I am pasting now because it rocks!!!
http://www.ehmac.ca/showthread.php?p=191974#post191974

T aken from a post at the above forum, by Nicki69:
I will try to explain this in concise verbiage. Grab a dictionary, if need be:

1. Pit Bulls, in particular, are used and trained to fight by gangmembers. Their use is well documented. Gangbangers and dealers use these animals for fighting and protection. It is quite a sport and a money maker as well. Please see links below.

2. If you ban Pit Bulls, the gangbangers will other dogs for fighting. It's a moneymaker, you know. Plus they enjoy making them "tough" and abusing them. Do you think if you take away the pits they won't have them and/or find other dogs to bait and train?

3. If you are concerned about the aggression of any animals, you need contain the cause not destroy the effect. Control your gang and drug population.

4. Banning one breed is not logical. For all your statisticians, my challenge to you is to run the numbers of all unprovoked assaults in Canada. I'll need the percentage caused by Pit Bulls, dogs in general,.as well as those committed by human males. If human males commit a majority of unprovoked assaults, rapes, murders, etc., then I'll need to know what steps will be taken to ban them from society? Ridiculous? No more than blaming every dog for what a small minority of dogs have done.

5. Since I work in insurance I can tell you the breed that has been documented to bite the most. This would be Retrievers. Why? Because there are more of them kept as pets than any other dogs and the fact is they are approachable. Thus, more dog bites.

I work in Chicago and live in Joliet. I do know that our officers are trained to find gangbangers who keep fighting dogs. You know they steal other pets to bait the fighters. Chicago has officers specifically assigned to dog fighting. Illinois has enacted legislation that BANS all breed discrimination. Again, you need to get rid of your major cause of crime, gangs and drugs. We have 14 year olds carrying guns. It is not logical to blame the dogs that are tortured and made to fight. You know they are beaten until they perform.

Educate yourselves by the following links.

http://www.anticruelty.org/dog_fighting.html
http://www.chicagoa nimalcare.org/fight.htm
http://www.chicagolandtails.com/ind...nd_dog_fighting
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/pet...brownstein.html

dogs jaws do not lock, there are 1000's of each breed and only 30 bites in north america, and how come u just dont shut down kennels that produce mean tempered dogs and check up on the owners of the dogs to make sure that the dogs are being treated well, if not take the dog and dont let them have another.

My friend has a pit bull and it is the most loveing dog that i have ever met in my life, its not the pitters falt,its people who made them a sporting dog, it only took those people back in the day that started this whole fighting game to screw things up for everyone who has one, and for the people that dont have a pit bull want them they cant have one cuz your baning i say kill the deed not the breed, its really stupid if your gonna baned the pit bulls you might as well baned all breed becuse the bad owners will just go and found another breed,like the rottie for exsample, so im whats the point

It is the owners fault not the dogs, I agree with ?, 23 dog related deaths in 21 years and only one is from a pitbull

I agree with ?, "When is the last time a car got trialed for killing a pedestrian? Never the car is not responsible the driver is!"This is the same with dogs.

I agree with ?, "When is the last time a car got trialed for killing a pedestrian? Never the car is not responsible the driver is!"This is the same with dogs.

No breed ban for Vancouver--it's official.

Animal Advocates of B.C. has long been opposed on general principle to any dog over 40 lbs, & had some pretty unkind things to say in the past about Rottis...until the 'rescued' one from death row at a humane society shelter. At that point, their views on Rotti's seemed to change 180 degrees. IMHO, their views on dogs are often The Bad Flavour of the month kind of thing. (One month they don't like this breed, next month they don't like another breed, & in general they seem to want to save large dog breeds from abuse by eliminating the large breeds-?!? Which to me makes no sense at all.

Many/the Majority of Pit Bulls are fine family pets. Dogs that are bred & raised to guard crack house are not being raised to be family pets. Neither are dogs raised to fight in competition.
Which begs the ?, if dog fighting exists, & most of us will concede that it does exist & is increasing, why is there no thought to enforcing the laws against it? Illegal gambling, racketeering, tax evasion, & illegal blood sports (frequently under cover of darkness in public parks) by definition are clearly right in the job description of Ontario Att. Gen. Michael Bryant. So, "Let's get the Dogs!", instead of the people who will continue this disgusting but lucrative activity with or without Pit Bulls. This also makes Absolutely No Sense!!

Animal Advocates change their tune with the wind. They'll say anything for media coverage.

I have a pitt bull his name is Nemo and he is the best dog i ever had i believe it is on how you raise the dog any dog can attack you my dog think he is hurman.

I have a pitt bull his name is Nemo and he is the best dog i ever had i believe it is on how you raise the dog any dog can attack you my dog think he is human. Not all dogs are tempered like other dogs. If you train the dog with out abuse they are very gentile

Funny thing that AAS, or is it ASS??? They paid $500 to the SPCA to have pit bulls returned to a breeder/fight trainer in Derouche(sp), near Mission.

some people need to wake the fuck up.Im tired of people saying that their pit bull is nice and would'nt hurt anyone. Some pit bulls wouldnt hurt a fly, but how can you risk having pit bulls not baned when most pit bulls are aggressive towards people and other animals. Its not worth having another child or adult seriously injured or killed by these dogs that were bred to kill, and yes they were bred to kill! You cant just blame their owners 100% most pit bulls are born aggressive, its bred into them! I have seen pit bull puppies at 8 weeks act very aggressive, and no they werent just acting dominant. I had a pug just last year that was attacked by a 8 week old pit! I was so surprised. my pug was just sitting in my lap when this cute little pit puppy came up and attacked her. I knew pit bulls were aggressive but I had no idea how mean they can actualy be. I take my rottweiler to the dog park every weekend for the past three weeks and there has been four dog fights caused by pit bulls, I know its just aggresion towards other dogs, but it still shows their aggressive tendensies. Its bull shit that people keep bringing up how aggressive bull mastiffs, boxers, dobermans, german shepherds, and rottweilers are, how many killings are caused by these breeds? Just a couple in I dont know how many years. These breeds were bred to help people not kill them! Breeds that are meent to kill (pit bulls are not alone) are fila brasileiro, dogo argentino, canary dog, tosa inu, and the american bull dog. So dont talk until you know what the fuck your talking about, and not just because you met a nice loving pit bull! bring on the ban to large cities!

Such aggression, ct. You should be ashamed of yourself. Keep it up and people might request that you be banned -- or at the very least, muzzled.

there has to be some kind of aggression with this topic to get people like you (tsk tsk) to stop being so shallow and listen to the fucking facts! Why in the hell would I be ashamed of my self? Its all for the better cause.

there has to be some kind of aggression with this topic to get stupid fucks like you (tsk tsk) to listen to the facts. Why would I be ashamed? Its all for the better cause.

OK CT, a toaster MIGHT short out and cause a fire, should we ban them too??

What about SUVs, they cause more damage then an Austin Mini....Ban them too.

In fact, why don't we just ban everything that "MIGHT" hurt someone....TVs, cell phones, all electrical appliances, vehichles. I am sure you get the point.

kristy, see its people like you who are so ignorant children are being killed or seriously injured by their pit bulls because they think their pit wouldnt do such thing. House hold items will only hurt you if you abuse them and use them in a way that could inflict bodily harm. Unlike most pit bulls who attack for no reason what so ever. Its sad I have to explain this to people like you! Its common sence!

Im going to make another point, KRISTY. Im sure labradors can kill little chilldren or attack inocent people, but how many killings caused by labs do you hear about? Or any other breed for that matter. None! Cant you see the pattern, or are you just blind? Open your eyes KRISTY!

ct, name one child in canada who was killed by a pit bull. Oh, yeah, and please define pit bull becuase it's not a breed.
one incident in canada. prove to us you know what you're talking about.

Ok tsk tsk, there is such thing as a pit bull. Here is the definition...DURING THE 19TH CENTURY, DOG FANCIERS IN ENGLAND, IRELAND AND SCOTTLAND BEGAN TO EXPERIMENT WITH CROSSES BETWEEN BULLDOGS AND TERRIERS. IMIGRANTS BROUGHT THESE DOGS TO TH U.S. WHERE IT WAS USED FOR DOG FIGHTING. AMERICANS BRED THESE DOGS FOR THEIR AGGRESSIVENESS. SOON THESE DOGS WERE KNOWN AS PIT BULLS. If you look at any dog book it will tell you the difference between a pit bull, an am staff, and a staffordshire bull terrier which are all noticably smaller than the pit. Do your research tsk tsk before you open your mouth!

Many children are killed in the U.S. by pits. You dont hear about all of the injuries caused by pit bull bites or attacks. Did I say, canada, even once? No! How long are you going to wait before a child becames dog food(THAT WAS MY POINT). This subject would not even be an issue with the government, if pits were safe. Give it up tsk tsk! What else can you throw at me, Mr. Fucking Oblivious! It seems, now days, people care about their pets more than ther own children.

i dont think they should ban pitbulls i think that the owners is the problem i have 11 yr old american pitbull terrier and she is the biggest suck, my home got robbed and the big bad pitbull did nothing she was in the bath tub scared. 1 year ago in toronto.ont police were in pursuit of a perp in mid day k9 unit was chasing him on the street mother child walking the child got spooked and started too scream and run and panic the german shepred then chased the child you never hear about that kind of stuff because it is a police dog and that is not the first time that has happened.pitbulls are a great bestfriend .

i dont think they should ban pitbulls i think that the owners is the problem i have 11 yr old american pitbull terrier and she is the biggest suck, my home got robbed and the big bad pitbull did nothing she was in the bath tub scared. 1 year ago in toronto.ont police were in pursuit of a perp in mid day k9 unit was chasing him on the street mother child walking the child got spooked and started too scream and run and panic the german shepred then chased the child you never hear about that kind of stuff because it is a police dog and that is not the first time that has happened.pitbulls are a great bestfriend .

i dont think they should ban pitbulls i think that the owners is the problem i have 11 yr old american pitbull terrier and she is the biggest suck, my home got robbed and the big bad pitbull did nothing she was in the bath tub scared. 1 year ago in toronto.ont police were in pursuit of a perp in mid day k9 unit was chasing him on the street mother child walking the child got spooked and started too scream and run and panic the german shepred then chased the child you never hear about that kind of stuff because it is a police dog and that is not the first time that has happened.pitbulls are a great bestfriend .

i dont think they should ban pitbulls i think that the owners is the problem i have 11 yr old american pitbull terrier and she is the biggest suck, my home got robbed and the big bad pitbull did nothing she was in the bath tub scared. 1 year ago in toronto.ont police were in pursuit of a perp in mid day k9 unit was chasing him on the street mother child walking the child got spooked and started too scream and run and panic the german shepred then chased the child you never hear about that kind of stuff because it is a police dog and that is not the first time that has happened.pitbulls are a great bestfriend .

well then ct. Experimental crosses that were known as a pitbull does not qualify as a breed.

look at the legislation. it includes all the dogs you state are different from "pit bulls." politicians and reporters can't tell the difference. don't you understand what the fuss is about? the laws say that anyone's dog who looks like it might be a pit bull will be banned. that's like saying any person who looks like he might be a pedophile be jailed. and what does a pedophile look like?
Why should we ban pit bulls in canada because there are dog bites in the states? I want canadian stats, not us news flashes a la Jerry Springer.
Let's see you make it through a post without swearing and calling names. What's with all this anger?
Anyway, thanks for answering. You've confirmed my suspicions.

well then ct. Experimental crosses that were known as a pitbull does not qualify as a breed.

look at the legislation. it includes all the dogs you state are different from "pit bulls." politicians and reporters can't tell the difference. don't you understand what the fuss is about? the laws say that anyone's dog who looks like it might be a pit bull will be banned. that's like saying any person who looks like he might be a pedophile be jailed. and what does a pedophile look like?
Why should we ban pit bulls in canada because there are dog bites in the states? I want canadian stats, not us news flashes a la Jerry Springer.
Let's see you make it through a post without swearing and calling names. What's with all this anger?
Anyway, thanks for answering. You've confirmed my suspicions.

agressive cat shot by police http://www.intelligencer.ca/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=98 953&catname=Local+News

CT, most pit bulls who attack ARE abused, or mistreated. And you can gaurantee that we hear about EVERY single attack by pit bulls. The media loves it, they even claim attacks were pit bulls that turn out to be other breeds, then the story drops from the news. I think you are a little blind, I can say I am not, because I too, used to be scared of pit bulls, then I actually did some research, and spent some time meeting with true professional, as well as some pit bulls. So I have done my homework. I have researched the statistics, and unfortunately for you, they tend to lean towards showing this breed in a positive light. That is why, in the media, and by fanatics like yourself, we only hear false claims, and generalizations, because there are FEW NUMBERS to back up your claims.
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In the past 23 years, 21 people have been killed by dogs.............ONLY ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED BY THIS BAN!!!! Do some research, open your mind.

The above comment was mine by the way.

There are plenty of other things in this world that do more damage, more frequently then ANY pit bull in the world.

Perhaps if the city could enforce the laws already in place, then they wouldn't feel the need to waste so much time and money on this.

If they enforced the current leash (for all breeds), and muzzle (for pit bulls), and laws pertaining to dogs that spend their entire life tied to a tree with no human contact whatsoever....then I would guess 99.9% of these problems would not be occuring.

But why should all pit bulls be muzzled in the first place? Are you aware that there was no reason for this discriminatory language to be written into the current Vancouver bylaws? Any vicious dog should be muzzled, but to muzzle a non-vicious dog based on looks is ludicrous. I think licenses should be on a scale depending on whether the dog has been fixed, has passed a certified training program, has an adequate yard to play in (not be chained up in), has passed temperament testing, etc. The license fees will help fund the monitoring of the system.

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I have been to the local dog park many times and there hase been pit bulls there with good owners that say there pit bull is so aggressive and they dont know why.Most of these dogs are just naturaly that way

not a very scientific analysis, ct, but at least you're not swearing.

Aggression towards animals, and aggression towards people are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT issues.....BARB, you are right about the muzzle law being stupid, but unlike a ban, a muzzle law is already in place, and it was when the woman on false creek was bitten by an OFF LEASH UN-MUZZLED pit bull. That's the bottom line, had that owner followed the laws, well, one less bullet for the bsl supporters.

If they don't know why their pit bull is aggressive, FIRST it shoudln't be at the friggin' dog park, and SECONDLY, if they don't know about the breed, they SHOULD NOT OWN ONE!!!!

I hear you Kristy, but I disagree about the Stanley Park incident. The dog was never found (therefore never identified as a "pit bull") and the woman wasn't injured. I don't even think skin was broken. The whole thing was an example of everybody over-reacting, but especially the media.

kristy

kristy, the reason why owners take their pit bulls to the park is because they are trying to socialize them. It is true that they shouldnt have their aggressive pit bull at the park any way! A pit bull does not have to be abused to be overly aggressive. My aunt had a pit bull that was very aggressive, and she never abused or neglected the dog. Its just in their jenes to act that way, after all, that is exactly what they were bred for!

Here are some statistics I have found on dog bites in 2001 22% were caused by pit bulls, 13% by rotts, 9% by german shepherds, and only 3% by dobermans. The rest of the bites were caused by mutts, huskies, chows, wolf hybrids, st. bernards, and great danes. IF you read the stories behind the bites, the ones by the pit bulls were more vicious.

You'll find that most stats that have figures for "pit bulls" combine at least three breeds in that category. If you combined three other breeds and called them a generic name, the results would be just as skewed. Besides that, look at the total number of dogs, and the total number of people and you'll find that bites aren't anywhere near the top of injury lists. In fact, falls are. Perhaps we should look at banning gravity.

So we ban pit bulls and take care of 22% of bites. That makes no sense at all. Why don't we destroy human-aggressive dogs of any breed and go for 100%?

check this out!nice site, puts every thing. www.city-journal.org/html/9_2_scared_of_pit.html

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the percentage is growing every year! How long are ya going to wait, until the percentage grows to 50%? The only reason why people get a pit bulls is for its aggressive nature. men try to be macho by getting a macho breed. Pit bulls are popular for all the wrong reasons!

well kristy, of course you hear about the deaths caused by dogs but you dont hear about all of injuries caused by pit bulls, like broken and crushed bones. Look at how much money is going into fixing these wounds. You shouldnt claim that the media "loves it" they really could care less about what breed did the damage. facts are facts, stop ignoring them KRISTY! Oh yeah, just because you met a couple nice pits, it doesnt mean a damb thing!

DAMB! I just went to some web site that has all of killings caused by dogs in the states in 2005. There has been 20 killings so far and 16 of them were caused by pit bulls. In california state, a 23 day old baby was torn apart by its mothers pit bull. In kansas state, four pit bulls ripped of the limbs and killed a three year old child. Most of these killings were caused by pits that showed no aggression before. Its horrific how vicious these dogs are. Who knew!

the site is... www.dogexpert.com/fataldogattacks/fataldogattacks.html/

Why do you insist on US stories? They ban gay marriages in the US, too.

I use alot of stories from the U.S. because it just goes to show how aggressive these dogs can be. problems with pit bulls are world wide. just because its a different country doesnt mean that the breed changes. A pit bull is a pit bull, just like a lab is a lab.

I have one pittbulls my self and he is very friendly with other people.he plays with little kids in the naborhood. I think that any dog can be mean not just pittbulls it is the way they are raised.but that is my comment.

Ryan,Its true that any dog can be aggressive but pit bulls are more aggressive than any other breed, because it is in their genes. Why do you think alot of pit bull breeders only breed the most aggressive dogs? Because the trait is passed to their offspring, just like their coat color or other characteristics. It is sad and unfair to the many good tempered pit bulls, but the bad ones out weigh the good ones. Too many people are breeding pit bulls only for their bad qualities and not their good ones. Until breeders stop, and start breeding pits that are good natured to what a real guard dog should act like(not a vicious killer). they should be banned until then! To Some Point, aggressiveness is caused by the way their owners raise them.

what garbage!

Perhaps I need to explain a bit more to the ignorant out there. A pit bull type dog is a dog, the same as a german shepherd, Belgian Malinois, doberman, poodle or retreiver. Saying they are different genetically is like saying blacks are genetically better basketball players, white men can't jump and have a small penis...ever hear of eugenics? Are you so lacking in education that actually believe that the spectacle of one animal fighting another is only a north american delight? And only "pit bulls" are fighters? And aggression is a product of inherited genetics?Would genetics be so simple Hitler might have been on the right track after all... By this genetic logic, all black men are like tyson and have a penchant for rape and ears (Kobe?) or white men like eating little boys (Dahlmer?) The lack of basic intelligence always surfaces in arguments of the bogeyman..lets stop breeding rapists and murders and child molesters, the answer is right in front of us no? We hereby ban all criminals, all children of accussed criminals will be killed to remove pre-crime risk(hollywood?) and utopia will be achieved, pass the milk and honey please...no more racial penis envy, world peace is here... Not sure if many reading this actually have the intellect to follow this. So let's get rid of pit bulls cause I want to get a real killer dog...a german shepherd just like the police have..a nice thinking killer..or how about a few rottweilers? they are real good at killing kids, great for babysittting no? Or how about bull mastiffs? a hit at any backyard party ..Or how about a nice Neopolitan Mastiff bred for centuries to be able to physically hunt and kill men..or an English mastiff or American bulldog or a Canary dog or a Cane corso or a Maremma or a Kuvasz or a dogue de bordeaux or a large mutt or a small mutt or a wee Bedlington terrier or an airedale or sharpei, chow,(stop now?) - centuries of fighting and aggression there..or how about a nice wolf-hybred which has no controllable conditioning and quite a few human kills on record...yes please ban the pit bull so I can start selling other dogs or maybe just sell guns and knives and plastic bags to pig farmers...
Have a nice day
PS - when do we start banning cougars and bears? From what I understand they kill us quite well and I need to be safe, but not from you...

CT....Responsible Pit owners know that there are more appropriate ways to socialize pits then at a dog park. Personally I wouldn't take my Dad's beagle to a dog park. Was your Aunt's dog dog-aggro or human-agro? There is a HUGE difference. As for the 23 day old baby attacked by a pit bull......WHEN PEOPLE HAVE BABIES, THEY SHOULD NOT LEAVE THEM ALONE PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVEN WITH CATS........I learned that when I was pregnant, every book I read said that, but I guess we could generalize that since that occurred in California, maybe the mother was out doing a DRIVE-BY SHOOTING, or out smokin' crack (which you might be to leave a baby alone with ANY DOG).

BTW, breeding has alot to do with aggression, poor breeding creates problems, consider the comparison with humans, in-breeding would cause mental retardation if a child were born, when people bredd their dogs, they take very little consideration into health matters. We hear of EVERY injusry, be it "crushed" bones, bites or simply the dog jumping up if it was a pit bull, don't give me that BULL SH!T.......I am not willing to lay down and have my rights taken away by some jackass, therefore I would NEVER support a BYB (back yard breeder), I will not watch someone break the rules already set out without saying or doing something. I don't support the ignorant people who put the public at risk, because I don't want them to wreck things for me, so you can call me a bleeding heart, or claim that I am a "risk" to society, but the bottom line is we are on the same side, I just might be a little more rational and open minded about it.

Hey Kristy
I think you need to learn a tad more on genetics before you preach. Poor breeding and inbreeding results in pronounced expression of recessive traits but even then that is no way to guarantee the outcome but just make a prediction. With inbreeding you can in fact get mental instability or a "retarded" dog(Check with the royal family) but that is no indication of aggression or aggressive tendencies.
And while we are at it what exactly is aggression? From the dog's point of view or our's? Dogs can only respond in a very limited way to it's environment or situation and for a dog using its mouth is normal. Is a lion aggressive because it kills other animals for food? How about a lion killing a human? Is that now aggression? And is aggression a bad thing or a natural response to stimuli or conditioning? And again what is aggression by whose definition? I like to play rough with my dogs and in schutzhund our dogs were supposed to bit hard and not let go at all, my dogs growl and mouth when they play, or will correct another dog hard. Is that aggression? People who are afraid of dogs will say yes. Hell I know so called animal behavourists who will drop a load in their pants if a large dog growls or even snarls at them. Is that aggression? How about a dog protecting the owner by biting the attacker or intruder? Is that aggression? By the way who teaches the dog the difference between an intruder and family friend? Genetics can not determine the "aggressive" response of a dog. It can determine whether a dog may have tendencies towards fear or dominance or other instinctive responses inherent within all dogs but the outward expression will vary. In fact in several studies with so called aggressive dogs, descendants from fighting lines and actively fought, it was found that they were NOT aggressive by nature but by training and conditioning. A son of a killer is a killer?
By the way I would prefer the backyard breeder as many that I have meant have a deep love for their dogs.Their dogs are part of their family. Not like your typical show or purebred dog breeder who will have kennels full of breeding stock as they inbreed and line breed galore to establish a line for a "look" without a fig for stability and health. Show dogs at Westminster and Crufts are judged solely and exclusively on type or look...not health, form or function from a canines point of view, otherwise they would be judging 12yr. old dogs.Surely you must be aware of the litany of inherited diseases, deformation and health issues that plague show or pure breed dogs. I have yet to meet a commercial or professional dog breeder who will keep all their dogs for the love of it. They will sell "poor" or "weak" stock and inbreed or tightly line breed to get their defining look for the kennel.In fact you rightly point out the results of inbreeding with respect to humans which in the doggie world is called purebred - but there is no scientific indication of "aggressive" with retardation. Whenever someone calls themselves a breeder or makes their living from breeding than I would be extremely critical, so be careful on passing judgement on "backyard" breeders. Anyone who has so many dogs that they must be kept outside in row after row of kennels or staked on chains in barrels (like sled dogs) are not interested in creating the same relationship with the dogs as you or I might.
I am very interested in hearing more about your open mind and rational. Please enlighten me because I think we are on the same side but lacking in some fundamentals. I don't think you're a risk to society but ignorance is

I recently was given a dog that had been left at someones house for a week,and after a month was still not picked up.The person who gave me the dog had no idea what breed of dog she was.He simply wanted her to go to a good home.I have four children and due to stories.
The following morning my 4 year old daughter woke me up to inform me that somebody had writen in the dogs ear.It didn't take me long to realise the dog had a tatoo.Right away I got on the phone with dog control in my area to insure that someone wasn't looking for this dog.She seemed a little depressed as though she was greatly missing someone.It turned out that she was simply abandoned and was from the vancouver area.She is 5 years old.However the dog control officer neglected to ask what breed she was.I have has her for a while now and now all of a sudden the person who gave me the dog has informed me that dog control is looking for this dog because she is a pitbull.Apparently in this area there is a 1000.00 manditory registration fee for any pitbull.I don't have that kind of money.
never in my life would i have gone out and bought a pitbull.Mostly because of all the horror stories I have heard over the years,and because I love the 4 children I have too much to put them in any danger.But I can tell you that this dog is the most loving gentle dog i have ever owned and there is no doubt in my mind that my children are completely safe.This sweet dog lives inside is never tied up and get plenty of exersize.I will do whatever I can to keep her even if it means I have to come up with the 1000.00.

What city has a mandatory registration fee for pit bulls? How discriminatory. You might not have the correct info and I hope you don't, because that's a lot of money. I think there's a huge fee in certain Lower Mainland cities if your pit bull is picked up by the pound, but that's not what's happening here. Good for you for keeping the dog.

KRISTY, the baby was not alone with the pit. She was sleeping in her mothers arms in her mothers room when the dog came in and grabed the little baby.

Dave you need to do your research before you open your big mouth! Its poeple loke you who breed pit blls and dont know what the hell your doing. Thats we have this very problem. If you look in any dog book it will tell you a different temperment with every breed. Every breed are not the same like you claim. Ask a good breeder and they will tell you that they breed for temperment. Stop trying to get the spot light off of pits and on to other breeds. What a moron

Hey ct
Really? Pray tell ct, what is the temperament of a pit bull please? And how exactly is it unique from other breeds? And what exactly is behaviour ct? And what is the difference between the two? And how many pit bulls or any other working breed are you familiar with or own?
By the way are you getting all your incredibly vast knowledge only from books?
And can you me exactly how a good breeder can guarantee temperament? Or behaviour? If so then why is the lovely and gentle retriever is the number one biter according to all stats? Surely they have the best temperament according to their breeders and breed standards no? Or are you talking fatalities? Then again all the recent deaths in Canada that were in the media were by breeds other than pit bulls. I don't believe you can get a more serious or deadly or viscious or savage dog attack than one that is fatal, unless of course you feel that is taking the spotlight off pit bulls eh ct?

No worries ct,I find it very interesting that there are so many canine experts with an incredible base of knowledge and experience.

I find you amusing, you feel I'm taking the spot light off the grand ole breed and putting it on other breeds.
Would it be due to the truth and reality that other breeds and owners are more of a problem? Or is that too much reality for you? Or that there is a witch hunt against the breed?
And by the way, I'd be most interested in your understanding of the "problem" because from my view I see no problem whatsoever with pit bulls or the vast majority of their owners including myself who care for their dogs.

ct it is the uneducated, gullible and ignorant majority such as yourself that are the real problem with pits. Perhaps you should get to know one, you may like it. And seriously dude, read some good books

keep rambling dave! I have personaly known some pit bulls most of them are aggressive and some of them are very nice. By the way, I dont get all of my information from books. I have read alot of good books. They all say the same thing. I am very familiar with many breeds like dobermans, german shepherds, labs, chows, pointers, rottweilers, shar peis, pit bulls, pugs, and bull mastiffs, just to name a few. How many are you familiar with huh? I am not igorant, gullible, and uneducated. I dont open my mouth until I know damb well im right! You dont know any thing about breeding, you just keep making shit up. I cant beleive that you honestly think that there is no temperment for a pit bull. Give up, your loosing the battle, pits are going to be banned one way or another. Other breeds are not a problem. pits are mans fucking worst enemy not their best friend. what else can you throw at me, huh. So worthless.

oh yeah, im not a dude! your allready asuming things

ct, if you were really educated you'd have realized a long time ago that "damb" is not a word. Dave you're wasting your time with ct. just let her ramble.

? ...sigh...I know but comic relief does help and ct is so adept at typifying the response from the proponents of the pitbull ban. This individual is in fact a fascinating study of the effects of hysteria on the masses and understanding ct could help shed some light on the irrationality of such convictions despite logic.

Im not rambling, im speaking the truth. The government is on my side, so you might as well give up now. Its so funny how I can piss some people off and keep them going on all the fictional bull shit they claim. You keep on saying that I am uneducated, take a good look in the mirror Dave. You obviously havent done any research what so ever. Why are you even speaking anyway? You should be emberrased about the things you said and claim. Your claims are so unbeleivable. WOW. By the way, how could you juge some one just because they spelled one word wrong? This is'nt even about english, give me a break! Its so pathetic that its as good as you can do! It just goes to show that your juging abillities are horrible. No wonder you're on the pit bulls side. What is this world coming to?

oops, I miss spelled judge and judged I better hurry and change it or these imature bastards are going to pick at it. This is'nt third grade people!

Now ct, ? is not Dave, and you've spelled several words wrong--damb was just the most humourous. Which government is on your side? They Ontario liberals? Anyone else? Stop panicking ct and read carefully. I hope you're not a dog owner because somebody so high-strung really shouldn't be taking any responsibility for the health and welfare of animals.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/02/27/944149-sun.h tml

I think they should go after the"bad" pitbull owners,and not the breed

It is frightening that those with the mental astuteness of ct are allowed to breed and vote...I guess that explains the ease with which politicians and media can obfuscate the truth.

It still comes down to one thing, pits are vicious. they will be banned wheather you like it or not.

Well, they won't be banned in Vancouver -- it's been decided :-)

i dont under stand how it is in there genes becaus there is aression in all dog they just dont show it.pitt bulls are not the most agressive i looked it up an pitt bulls are like 7th or 8th on the most agressive.i think yall should stop worring about the dog and focus on the owner cause there the one makeing them mean its not in there genes to be mean.the german shepard is one of the top five dogs that are agressive and then the gray hound my cusin Donnie Lamar Cambel jr was attck by a grey hound.a nd he breeds pitt bulls and hes never been bitin by them.but check out about the grey hounds why dont you try to band them.

i dont under stand how it is in there genes becaus there is aression in all dog they just dont show it.pitt bulls are not the most agressive i looked it up an pitt bulls are like 7th or 8th on the most agressive.i think yall should stop worring about the dog and focus on the owner cause there the one makeing them mean its not in there genes to be mean.the german shepard is one of the top five dogs that are agressive and then the gray hound my cusin Donnie Lamar Cambel jr was attck by a grey hound.a nd he breeds pitt bulls and hes never been bitin by them.but check out about the grey hounds why dont you try to band them.

i dont under stand how it is in there genes becaus there is aression in all dog they just dont show it.pitt bulls are not the most agressive i looked it up an pitt bulls are like 7th or 8th on the most agressive.i think yall should stop worring about the dog and focus on the owner cause there the one makeing them mean its not in there genes to be mean.the german shepard is one of the top five dogs that are agressive and then the gray hound my cusin Donnie Lamar Cambel jr was attck by a grey hound.a nd he breeds pitt bulls and hes never been bitin by them.but check out about the grey hounds why dont you try to band them.

they wont be banned

they wont be banned

I have a pit bull my self my wife she loves um her names tatterslade.

Ryan, you are really uneducated. do some research before you say anything more. You say that there is aggression in all breeds but they dont show it like pit bulls do. Well is'nt that the problem? Its in their genes because that is what they are bred for. What do you expect from a breed that was made to kill? Give me a break!

what are u talking about pitbulls are just hated by you fagets u don't know anything.

Fuck you nick, what the hell do you know? I know damb well Im right, so dont even start. Aggression is bred into pit bulls just like the love of water was bred into labs or the need to hurd was bred into border collies. So dont open your mouth until you know what the hell your saying, dumb ass!

MINNII.....If you are in Vancouver you do not need liability insurance or to pay higher licensing fees. There are certain requirements regarding muzzles if you are out walking the dog (and always on a leash), I would NEVER take any pit to an off leash dog park, that's a recipe for trouble, and if the dog is ever out alone, even to pee, there are fencing/pen requirements. If you are in Richmond, and probably Surrey or Burnaby there are different requirements.

EVERYONE, CT is a dog expert so there is no sense debating, she knows your dog better then you do, not just a few breeds but ALL the big breeds.

If ANY dog's parents are aggresive then there is a good chance/higher risk that the pup will be aggresive, that is just a guideline though since you can have a litter of seven pups each turn out differently. The same goes for disease.....and you know what else contributes to disease in dogs? OVER BREEDING!!!!

ct you are a real work of art! Where in the world do you get your information? I would really like to know. I used to think about pits as killers until I started to do some research then I couldn't find one source that wasn't linked to the media that said anything about American Pit Bull Terriers(which is the proper breed name by the way) being human agressive. Quite the contrary actually every book or site I have ever gone to has described the APBT as a stable extremely human freindly breed prone to animal agression. So I am very interested in checking out your sources please share.

By the way speaking of agression you seem to have more than your fair share ct maybe we should ban you from breeding.

Thank you kristy you are absolutely right about over breeding and dog aggression. Roger, I know the proper name by the way. Not all pit bulls are human aggressive or even animal aggressive. Certain breeding lines are worse than others, due to uneducated breeders or breeders that only breed for dog fighting. I have been studying dog breeds for most of my life and I know what I am talking about. I have spoken with many dog breeders also. If you really want some sources look up at my other comments I listed two. I will get more. Oh yeah, You think that I am being aggressive my self? I treat people the way they treat me, for example...Nick. Read his comments, he deserved what he got.

ct if you agree that breeding is the problem here then why the ban on APBT's and not tougher legislation on unethical breeders and irresponsible owners. If you look at my first post here on 2/12 I already introduced this proposition.

Also I failed to find your references in your previous posts. I may have overlooked them because you have so many but I would appreciate it if you would list them again.

Roger, that is a pretty good idea. I am not sure that it would completely work, but it would help alot. here is a couple more really interesting sources, www.dogexpert.com/popular%20press/pitbullfriend.html and, www.dogexpert.com/photos%20(bite)/indexbitephotos.html if you look at the photos you can see that all the pit bull bites are alot worse than the others. people keep saying that other breeds are dangerous too but here is what I found, 1 in 16 pit bull bites are serious, 1 in 296 are by dobermans and 1 in 156 are by german shepherds. Once they attack they dont like to stop.

Thank you for the links ct. I do agree with you that an agressive APBT is probably one of the top, if not the #1 dangerous agressive dog. However this still does not justify banning the breed. Just because a dog or person has the potential to cause harm does not mean that it will. If that is justification then people with combat training like myself would be banned. While I have the potential for violence I myself actually abhore violence. I hate it. Now just because I am capable of it does not mean at all that I would resort to it. APBT's as a majority are the same. While they possess the capabilities most would not use them unless provoked. Of course I am refering to their actions regarding humans not other animals.

People just need to stop using this breed or any other breed for dog fighting. They need to properly socialize there pit bull at a young age, which is why this is such a big problem. They need to become more responsible for their pets. Pit bull owners are the biggest problem with their dogs aggression next to genetics.

Also while your first page above is interesting I also found this little disclaimer stating that the information was collect from media sources.

Disclaimer: The accuracy of the information posted on this site depends on the validity and accuracy of the newspaper reports from which information posted on this site has been collected. It is assumed that reports are valid concerning the fact that a dog-related fatality happened. Newspaper reporting may be inaccurate with respect to the breed of dog(s) involved in the fatality, however. THIS IS PARTICUARLY TRUE FOR THE PIT BULL TERRIER. Accordingly, since there is likely to be significant error in the identification of the breed of dog(s) involved in a fatal attack as reported in newspaper stories, IT WOULD BE INADVISABLE TO USE INFORMATION POSTED ON THIS SITE TO SUPPORT AGENDAS PROMOTING LEGISLATION BANNING,LIMITING OR CURTAILING THE OWNERSHIP OF CERTAIN BREEDS OF DOG. Dr. Polsky acknowledges this fact and therefore discourages and specifically requests that statistics on this site not be used for this purpose. NOTE THAT OTHER DATA COLLECTION TECHNIQUES (ANIMAL CONTROL REPORTS, POLICE REPORTS, WITNESS OBSERVATION)USED FOR BREED IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES IN FATAL DOG ATTACKS MAY ALSO BE FLAWED.

I havn't checked the second one out yet so I don't know if it is reputable yet.

ct I totally agree with your last statement. I in no way condone dog fighting. This is also why I don't believe in extermination of the breed but in the extermination of irresponsible breeders and owners.

I love pittbulls and if you ban them what do you think is going to happen to the population i think your all just expecting that the problem will just disapear when it dosent go to plan b kill them all I dont think so

I think that all dogs should have to be on a leash,and have a muzzle while walking off the owners propertie. all pitt bulls arnt mean!my best friend has a pitt bull and it has never hurt a fly!!!theres even stories of pitt bulls saving lives!in a recent temperment study pitt bulls got a hiigher ranking than golden retrivers! so ,with that said i think that these people who want to make pitt bulls extinct are doing the wrong thing!

It amazes me to see that when it comes to so called human beings who are serial killers, rapist, child molesters we take into consideration their upbringing and any type of abuse they may have been subjected to in order to minimize their punishment. We offer them compassion and with our tax dollars we try get them help!!!! But when it comes to a an animal who has been misused, mistreated, chained and provoked to fight the only solution we have is to take their life. Put them to sleep and that will take care of the problem.

Pitt bulls are not the problem, the two legged animals who own them are. For years people have banked on this breeds loyalty, strenght and intellegence. I want to put those people to sleep!!

Right now I am rescuing a pitt bull that was used for breeding and left behind when the family moved to another town. Animal control officer contacted them and they said they did not want him anymore, they had named him "profit" !!!! This poor guy wondered a neighberhood for six months, sometimes in freezing tempture never showed any aggression towards any dogs or human. I started to feed him once a day. He was timid and afraid of human beings. He had been chained his entire life and abused. He finally trusted me and one night he came to eat his food and after he ate he put his head on my arm and look straight into my eyes. Another kind lady who was concern about him offered him a ride to her house two weeks ago, we contacted the Best Friends (animal rescue and protection group) they agreed that if we fostered him they would send him to the vet, he was neutered yesterday and does not have heart worms, he is a lap dog and loves to ride. There is aggression from my dog a black lab towards him but none from this pitt bull, as matter of fact he went hiding in my little girl's closet when my dog was barking at him so hard. He will make a wonderful pet and companion for someone someday soon, we changed his name to Prophet. I do understand that you can not love the fighter out of him, but just like anyother dog he needs love and a good home and he will make a wonderful pet. I do not buy into all this bull shit about pitt bulls, this dog had a gash in his troat with blood and raw shkin and he sill was loving and just wanted to be loved. Wake up people. It is not the breed it is the breeder.

Well it has passed, ct you must be rejoicing. Well no worries, other breeds will quickly follow
Kristy, while I understand we may be on the same side I must point out that you really need to take some more courses in genetics. If both parents appear aggressive there is NO reason at all to believe the pups will. Find out why and what type of aggression the parents are exhibiting before making a conclusion.By the way , poor and unsanitary kennel conditions contribute to disease ,inbreeding contributes to genetic defects and inheritded abnormalities. Overbreeding a dam usually results in serious health issues to the dam due to lack of recovery from the litter and for the pups lack of proper nutrition from the dam's milk and as a result increase susceptability to disease from unsanitary kennel conditions.You need to clarify what you mean by overbreeding - multiple litters from the same dam or multiple litters from the same kennel. Overbreeding a dam usualy results in the dam with very poor health and possible death or shortened life. Brood bitches are another thing entirely.Inbreeding is not related to overbreeding but usually a combined practice. In my time I have known of respectable breeders overbreed a dam to pump out litter after litter. Overbreeding floods the market with actual numbers of dogs such as greyhounds or dalmations etc which can not be cared for and are wantonly destroyed. And of course you will have unscrupulous breeders that will breed mother to son repeatedly and create highly inbred dogs with higher probability of genetic defects. A problem due to the combination of inbreeding and overbreeding.However if you take a highly inbred dog and outcross to it you will have a more normalised expression of dominant traits but unable to make any real predictions as to which dominant traits!

Seriously Kristy with your views or logic you might as well be with ct.

There is interesting research being done by studying the amygdala and its connection to aggression or violent physical behaviour and humans. There is evidence indictating removal or lesioning the amygdala will remove aggression but the amygdala is pretty complex and while there is correlation to animals there is no indication of whether any breed of dogs have abnormal hypothalamus or amygdala function due solely to breed type (looks). Removing the amygdala is like getting a frontal lobotomy. Anyhow most of the studies have been done with humans and chimps to understand serial or violent killers. Testosterone is definitely a component in the chemical mix of aggression but not a sole contributor. That is why it is a good idea to castrate male dogs if there is indications towards overt aggresive behaviour. Interesting in female dogs aggression is actually increased when they are spayed
If you're interested in a trainer's personal experience with aggression (her lab) and the amygdala check her link
www.clickertraining.com/training/advanced_topics/?loaditem=0504 _benpaperabma&itemnumber=13

NC and NNB, thank you for restoring my hopes that there are intelligent people still out there
NC as you can easily see, pit bulls are like any other dog and when your lab expressed dominance and territorial behaviour, the pit bull submitted and hid away...so much for killer dogs
By the way there probably is no fighter in Prophet but fear and confusion. I am very glad you are taking care of him, keep us informed as to his status

Dave it seems that once I deemed ct's sources unreliable she wants nothing more to do with this debate. Lets just hope that rather than only silencing her we may have changed her views on a potentially wonderfull breed. I know for every person those of us that love the breed educate there are 10 more out there hating but at least it is a start. Let's keep up the good work!

I dont agree with a breed ban, because enery kind of dog can be vichious. You need to research the enviornment that the dog was raised in because many times Pit bulls are the ones who are being mauled. A Pit bull is not a dangerious weapon and our country shouldn't judge this breed of dog by the skin that they are in. A breed ban doesn't sove this problem. It just creates a larger problem.

Roger, I agree and am heartened to see more intelligent and rational views presented, but when dealing with a highly emotional issue it maybe more like 100 to 1. Education only works on those that wish to learn. Jay, I couldn't have put it better myself, Canadian Law should not judge based on the skin you're in.

HOW TRUE CANADIAN LAW SHOULD NOT JUDGE BASED ON THE SKIN YOUR IN!!!!!!! mORe rACiSm!! eXcEpT tHiS tIMe It'S nOt pEOpLE!!! iT'S pEtS tHE oNE aNd OnLy ThInG i CaRE aBoUt. pEoPLe lEtS fOcuS oN tHE gOod ThInGS aBOuT tHeM ! LIKE LAST SAT!! WHEN A 60 YEAR OLD WOMEN FELL ON HER WAY HOME FROM WORK IN QUEBEC. IT'S COMPLETLY SAD SHE'S STILL WORKING AT 60. IN ANY CASE SHE TRIED TO YELL FOR PEOPLE SHE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A SUBDIVISION! sOME ONE SHOULD HAVE HEARD HER. aND GUESS WHAT CAME TO HER AID! A PITBULL, YES A PITBULLL. IT LICKED HER AND DID NOT STOP BARKING UNTIL SOMEONE CAME OUT AND LOOKED! What's happeniong with pitbulls could happen with any dog! It's all about how there trained and brought up. I treat my dogs better than i would treat children if i wanted any. If your passing a negative judgement about Pitbulls. I have to ask you why?? The amount of dogs in canada. You'd think one was happening every week! Which isn't the case at all. We've had under 100 attacks a year. More people are killed in car accidents. Than are injured by dogs. People get into cars everyday.
I am sending a petition to the government on this if you'd care to sign it

send me a line.

Please Vancouver (and all the other regions involved in banning the breed), do get the facts. One thing I loathe more than prejudism is prejudiced ignorance.

If you believe that you can breed for behaviour characteristics then understand the following;

1. Pit bulls make very poor guard dogs as they are extremely "human friendly" breed. THEY WERE BRED FOR THAT TRAIT. As stated, they needed to be in order to respond to pit handlers.
2. Pit Bulls can carry dog aggression (which means aggression against other DOGS). THEY WERE BRED FOR THAT TRAIT.
3. Dobermans and Rotweillers were bred for protection so if the dog feels threatened, d'you think it will attack????

By the way, for those of you who just believed the part about Rottweilers.....guess what? Rots were primarily bred as SHEPHERD dogs. My point? Guess.

Now for more information;

1. Statistics show that most people really cannot positively identify a dog as a Pit Bull.

2. Statistic show that children are the most often bitten. Perhaps we should ban children???? As they obviously upset the dog or antagonized it? D'you see how ridiculous prejudism is NOW?

3. The majority of adults are GUILTY and CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT, in my mind, of not socializing their children to behave CORRECTLY around animals, especially dogs.

Ignorance and prejudism create all kinds of horrors. Vancouver, when you look in the mirror do you see Dachau?

It is bull that they are banning them cause I love them!!

heyy well i think this is a wonderful article. it gives the pros and cons of having pitbulls. im doing my project on the banning of pitbulls and this site has given me much information.

hiiii how are you?

it is stupid to bann pittbulls its the owners that make them what they are.

it's a shame that the law as to get involved in the problems with pitt bulls when it's the owners that should be to blame.....I recently got a mix pitt bull and siberian husky dog and you could ask for a better dog.....but i've thought him to kiss instead of bitting wich alot of people don't like cause this dog's tough is long and he kisses lots....but i'm not about to stop him cause that's the way i've trained him

Know one knows how it feels to have someone you love half eaten by a pitt bull. I have raised and trained dogs for years but never will i have anything to do with them so called animals. Animal may be right but as long as you say mad animal. I dont care how you raise them, train them or everything in between they are not a dog that needs to be on our earth to destory other animals and our children and adults.

I believe the protection of women and children are a priority in the city. thus, I propose a ban on men, as they cause more harm than pitt bulls could ever accomplish. Thus, all men should be banned. One might think this is a silly idea but many of the comments I have just read are just as silly. Note, however that most people for the banning of pittbulls have little or no knowledge of, or experience working with, different dog breeds. I personally don't care for pittbulls, they don't fit my lifestyle (I'm a rotti & GSD person), but I will listen to the dog behaviouralists on this one as they have the education and understanding that I lack on this breed. I refuse to act on uneducated impulse. (As for the person who dubbed the rotti as a fighting dog DO YOUR HOMEWORK! Rotti's come from herding and guarding dogs way back in roman times.) I have had the pleasure of working with many good pittbulls during my volunteer hours dog walking at the spca. I do not support racism of any kind, man or beast.

Right on Janneke!
I've been involved with rotties and other working breeds, especially in schutzhund so know where you are coming from. One word of caution, many so called dog behavourists aren't worth a poop bag; many that I have meet have never owned the breeds or ever seen dogs in a "pack' situation - more than 3 dogs for any length of time. Listen to your own knowledge of dogs particularly from the working perspective - a good schutzhund dog (GSD or other) will never make it if they aren't "bold" or have "sharpness" and the determination or "game" or "drive" to succeed over the agitator. Plus a good deep bite on the sleeve or other area(ringsport) If you know your dogs you know what I am referring to. Refreshing to hear from you, I applaud your insight.

Hey I will bet money, that the same people who want to banish the breed also would like to get rid of certain races of people too... its this ignorant dumb ass attitude well if I cant fix it or have it the way i want it they all can die, shit lets start killing all the murders families, and the rapers families, because if one person in there family is a fucking nut then they all must be .. come on people its 2005 and we are still trying to wipe out races and breeds of things, history shows it doesent work, so please if you dont like the breed dont buy one, some of you pitt haters could really make a big difference in the world if you used all this energy on more important things,world peace, starving children in AMERICA.. get a life

Hey I will bet money, that the same people who want to banish the breed also would like to get rid of certain races of people too... its this ignorant dumb ass attitude well if I cant fix it or have it the way i want it they all can die, shit lets start killing all the murders families, and the rapers families, because if one person in there family is a fucking nut then they all must be .. come on people its 2005 and we are still trying to wipe out races and breeds of things, history shows it doesent work, so please if you dont like the breed dont buy one, some of you pitt haters could really make a big difference in the world if you used all this energy on more important things,world peace, starving children in AMERICA.. get a life

Hey I will bet money, that the same people who want to banish the breed also would like to get rid of certain races of people too... its this ignorant dumb ass attitude well if I cant fix it or have it the way i want it they all can die, shit lets start killing all the murders families, and the rapers families, because if one person in there family is a fucking nut then they all must be .. come on people its 2005 and we are still trying to wipe out races and breeds of things, history shows it doesent work, so please if you dont like the breed dont buy one, some of you pitt haters could really make a big difference in the world if you used all this energy on more important things,world peace, starving children in AMERICA.. get a life

C'mon people!! The only smart solution here is to BAN PEOPLE FROM BREEDING another generation of moronic, senseless, and ignorant humans. We are the only species that needs to be banned from this planet. Exactly as stated above, if you want to have breed specific bans....then let's go back to segregation...it's the same fucking thing. Get over yourselves.

You don't need to be on the planet, either, chicky......go away.

I don't think it appropriate to be rude or mean to people with views that oppose ours. Rather I believe you should use knowledge and facts to attempt to educate those that are ignorant on this subject. If you look back through these posts you will find an example of how I used education rather than insults to silence an opposing opinion. I believe that advocates for our breed that exibit this type of behavior are doing nothing to change the minds of those opposing pits. Rather the opposition uses the same stereotype they have for the breed on all pit owners as well. So for the sake of our breed lets try and keep it clean pit fans.

WHEN the deadly cottonmouth snake struck out at "her" children, Dixie never hesitated. The dog pushed the children aside, putting her 50-pound body between them and the snake. Dixie saved Frank Humphries, 9, and his 7-year-old twin siblings, Katie and Codi.

But the venomous snake inflicted two bites on the face of the 16-month-old dog. Valerie Humphries of Fayetteville, Ga., -- the children's mother and Dixie's co-owner -- killed the snake with an ax and rushed the dog to veterinarian Francoise Tyler. "Seeing Dixie's unconscious body in the arms of that doctor was one of the worst things I've ever been through," Humphries said.

"Dr. Tyler had to keep her for several days, hooked up to intravenous antibiotics." Then the vet nominated Dixie for the Hero Dog category in a contest sponsored by the Georgia Veterinary Medical Association. Dixie won over 300 nominated dogs and this month is being inducted into the Georgia Animal Hall of Fame. Now here comes one of the cheapest writing tricks in the book -- the "O'Henry ending":

Dixie is a pit bull.

The breed of a hero-dog shouldn't matter, really. But it does matter because this is a breed of dog that is feared, hated and reviled by so many people, including many who call themselves animal lovers. Many individuals and organizations, such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, are trying to outlaw this breed. For more articles like this go to pitbullpress.com

Yes, we need to get the hero stories out there more. Here's a very recent (and Canadian) one. http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2005/03/06/952043-sun. html.

In all honesty, I just don't think the other side knows what a "pit bull" is (because it's not a breed, no doubt). I just read a (totally non-scientific) study that has a statement about the high number of "pit bull" and rottweiler attacks. The same report says there were no incidents of attacks by dogs smaller than boxers. The breeds of dogs that come under the ban in Ontario under the umbrella category of "pit bull" are all smaller than boxers.
I think a lot of the problem comes from the fact that there is no consensus on what constitutes a pit bull. That's why the Ontario law is flawed.

YO PITTBULSS SHOULD STAY CUS I WANT 1 AS A MATTER OF FACT IM GOIN 2 BI WON RITE NOW IGGHT MY MAN SEE DAT AN BELIEVE DAT

Yo Pitbulls should stay cus I want one??!! Glad u posted your opinion, to bad that it means not a damn thing because a battle like this isn't won or lost on opinions but with facts!!!!! So for the rest of you opinionated ignorants out there on both sides please educate yourselves before you sound like the poster above.

That's fuckd up because Pit Bulls should stay and i'm going to by pne right now and ya'll aint gonna do SHIT about it bitces

You see folks, "Brandon" here is the prime example of what some people picture as a pit bull owner, but I think it might be fair to say that maybe "Brandon" shouldn't own ANY dog.

I couldn't have said it better myself Kristy. This is exactly the type of person I would rather not have on my side. Ignorance does not help our cause or our breed at all. Ecspecially when it comes coupled with rudeness and insults.

I certainly understand your sentiments here Roger. We have to accept that all types of individuals own dogs and our breed. The challenge is stay true to course and not isolate those who are at least positive. Possible redirection of their energy and encouragement towards responsible ownership and care for their chosen pet. Of course that is too idealistic. I'm currently involved in a situation here in Ottawa with respect to the breed and responsible ownership.

www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/OttawaSun/News/2005/03/16/962410 -sun.html

I certainly understand your sentiments here Roger. We have to accept that all types of individuals own dogs and our breed. The challenge is stay true to course and not isolate those who are at least positive. Possible redirection of their energy and encouragement towards responsible ownership and care for their chosen pet. Of course that is too idealistic. I'm currently involved in a situation here in Ottawa with respect to the breed and responsible ownership.

http://www.ottawasun.com/

It is a sad day when we must even consider banning any animal, dog or otherwise. But one does need to ask; why pitbulls? They are good pets to those who own them, until they turn ugly. If I am not mistaken, The pitbulls jaw locks when it attacks, this is the reason for the panic. Once these dogs latch on to it's prey no matter who or what, their bone crushing jaws lock and as has been clearly shown in too many cases (one child death is too many) you can beat them over the head with a bseball bat, shoot them many times and they still cannot release. This is not a pet it is a killing machine. I am sure there are many responsible owners, but it only takes one irresponsible owner's 'pet' to kill or mame and the answer seems clear. We must not let this happen again. Yes little dogs nip, labs do bite, rarely, but they do bite. The difference seems to be that they do not kill, and can be stopped easier. So I do not know if banning will work, but because some people are idiots, maybe that is the only way to stop these dogs from doing more damage. It is a sorry day when we must punish dogs for the stupidity of people. If ban we must then ban we will.

To bea at home: There's no such thing as a jaw that locks. If there were, then how could the dogs eat? As for the death of children, when has a "pit bull" -- which is not a breed, by the way, ever killed a child in Canada? As for people/children dying, there are about 3000 deaths a year in Canada due to car accidents, and falls are the leading cause of hospitalizations in Canada. And yes, labs bite. All dogs bite. The trouble is other dogs don't make the headlines. March 13 of this year a two year old was attacked in Winnipeg by a German Shepherd Husky cross , but it never made the news here in BC. don't base your opinions on what you hear in the press, Bea at home. Please do some research.

Here's the link for the recent dog attack in Winnipeg. http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/News/2005/03/14/960009-sun. html

To Bea,
sadly you are ignorant of dogs and unfortunately demonstrate exactly what this is all about: myths, misconceptions and lies.
By the way are you a racist? You have the perfect approach to be a vey good racist? Facts are sadly lacking in your post you certainly repeat the fallacies. Lab have caused severe damage.You are very mis-informed

Hey Dave. Make sure you clarify which Bea you're taking to...The original Bea is quite informed (and happens to be on the same side as you). "Bea at Home" is someone who came on and used my name. Of course, I know which one you're comments are addressed to. ;-)

You are absolutely right bea ! I am referring to the "Bea at home" I was not referring to you whatsoever. I agree with you completely and support you whole heartedy. More kids die in swimming pool or drowning related incidents than dog bites, the number one cause of death for children under 14 is homicide, by their own relatives or someone they know. This whole crisis on dog bites is completely manufactored and not grounded or supported by statistics for death and injury to children or people for that matter.
Even a tree killed a child in Ontario - a tree fell on a child in Hamiliton last year and viciously and umercifully crushed the life out of him, so trees have a higher kill rate last year than pit bulls!

Its not about death statistics in general, its about dog attacks. Pit bulls cause more deaths than any other dog breeds. Even dog bites caused by them are more gruesom than other breeds, because they dont let go. Its getting worse every year, just look at the U.S. they have a horrible pit bull problem. The statistics keep going up. Some kind of action has to be taken. Even if it meens banning the breed all to gether. If it is all lies then why do other countries have the same exact problem? The problem is every where, including canada. Face the facts instead of ignoring them and turning them into something they are not.Oh yeah the reason why alot of other attacks by other breeds are not reported is because they are not as vicious and life threatening. The american pit bull terrier is a breed, pick up any dog book and it will tell you. The pit bulls jaws dont really lock they just have one of the most powerfull jaws of any breed, so once they bite you cant get them off.

roger, there is only one reason why you would want to own a pit bull, its because you want to look macho because you think you have a macho dog. Your so pathetic get a life man. Your pretty fucking sick to protect these baby killers. Apparently you havent seen what a pit can do to a human body let alone a little kid. What a sick fuck.

bea, pit bulls are not smaller than boxers, they are thicker and they weigh more. Your getting the pit confused with the staffie. Get your facts straight before you open your mouth. You probably dont even know what a staffie is, so uneducated!

sorry rager but I am BACK. Nobody has changed my oppinion at all. Its amazing what people actualy beleive to be true. Brandon for example needs to shut the fuck up, he doesnt know a damn thing. I agree with the ban and I am far from being racist, i think its a bunch of bull shit.

roger not rager

Fuck this, bull shit that. Yeah, REAL mature, it makes what ever you represent look asinine.
I am relieved to see that most of that is coming from the OTHER side.

From Bea. I happen to own a staffie, and, surprise, it gets lumped into the "pit bull" category. Check the bylaws before you start criticizing people, Mr or Ms No Name. That's my whole point about the ban. Nobody agrees on a definition. How can you ban something when there's not one definition for it?

According to the Canadian Kennel Club, adult male Boxers are 22.5-25 inches at the withers, American Staffordshire Terriers, 18-19 inches, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, 14-16 inches. Since the CKC doesn't recognize the ABPT, they don't have measurements listed for them. So....boxers are the tallest. What do you base your "knowledge" on, No Name?

Lovingly, Bea.

Dear Mr/Ms Sick Shit. Roger happens to be the most articulate, level-headed, and respectful person participating in this discussion.

Also, to no name, you mention all these pit bull-caused deaths. Could you please provide us the details of one in Canada? I've missed it and would like to update my files.

I think there are a few people on this debate who are mature and articulate, and there has been ONE death from a pit in Canada in 23 YEARS!!!And for the people who say "look at the US and their problems" this is Canada, period, we don't have near the amount of problem based on dheer volume, so most of the stats in the US are MOOT.

Yup, you're right Kristy, only one death reported from pit bulls and the individual was drunk and abusing/beating his dogs. I say it was probably self defense on the dogs' part. There is however a disturbing number of child deaths in Canada attributed to larger breeds such as Bull Mastiffs, Rottweilers and Shepherds/Husky(mixes including hybrids). By the way to the ignoramus on sizes difference between pit bulls and boxes. Pit Bulls (APBT) typically weigh from 45 - 65 lbs. Height at the withers from 15-19". You would not know a Grand Champion Pit Bull if it licked you!. Top fighting champs back in the day were LESS than 48lbs. You average boxer weighs in from 65-90lbs. Sheesh what an idiot you are, but then again to be expected. By the way pit bulls have special blood that makes them stronger than all other dogs,it has an ethanol/methanol mix, their skins are like a rhino but have a special compound called "ArmorAll". Their teeth have traces of titanium and diamond, their muscles are super dense, have carbon fiber elements, they fart out mustard gas and their poop is radioactive, that's why all the poop you see is from pit bulls, no poop bag strong enough. Oh yeah, I'll share the most treasured secret, pit bulls turn into werewolves at nite but only after 2:13AM GMT...

First of all I would like to thank Bea for defending me in my absence!!! That was an extremely nice thing for you to do and I appreciate it! Next welcome back ct! I've missed you. I was hoping you could point me to more of the sources you base your argument on. For the record I never said that I changed your opinion only that I hoped that I had. Those hopes have been dashed....sigh. To sick shit I probably shouldn't even acknowledge you with a response because it seems you only hear what you want to but here it goes. I in no way think that owning an american pit bull terrier will make me look macho and I have no desire to look macho. In fact at this point I do not own a dog. The reason for this is that I presently do not have the time it would take to properly keep a dog. Oh sure I could walk it once a day for about 20 mins but really I wouldn't have any time after that to spend with a dog. Aside from that 20 mins any dog I had would pretty much be home alone. To me even though I would really like a dog it would not be fair to any dog. I am also fully aware of the damage an aggresive Pit Bull can cause just as I am aware of the damage any large agressive dog can cause. To clear things up an American Pit Bull Terrier does not have jaws that are any different from other dogs of comparable size. No dog has jaws that lock, period!!!! Also anyone quoting a bite presure for any breed is uneducated because these test are unreliable. It all depends on what is driving the dog to bite. Even the experts who run these test deem them unreliable. So why in the world would someone reading them do otherwise. I am dismayed when party's on both sides of this or any other debate resort to name calling and shaming. This type of behavior solves nothing. On the flip side I can respect those that are respectful (even if they disagree) and use facts to try and reach a solution. Case in point ct and I went back and forth keeping it very respectful and civil. I only wish more people were like that. Thank you to all of you that are on both sides of this debate. You are appreciated!

This is the official UKC charecteristics standard for the American Pit Bull Terrier.......
The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed's natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.

The American Pit Bull Terrier has always been capable of doing a wide variety of jobs so exaggerations or faults should be penalized in proportion to how much they interfere with the dog's versatility.

This is the UKC's official height and weight standard...........

HEIGHT AND WEIGHT

The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy.

This is what the UKC says about the Boxer........
Characteristics The Boxer is an active and courageous guardian with alert behavior. A firm hand may be required to modify its playful, robust behavior. Height
Males: 22½ to 25 inches. Females: 21 to 23½ inches. It is preferable that males not be under the minimum height or females be above the maximum height. Proper balance and individual quality are of primary importance.

This is the standard set by the AKC for the American Stafforshire Terrier. While a different breed it is still covered under the ban........

Size
Height and weight should be in proportion. A height of about 18 to 19 inches at shoulders for the male and 17 to 18 inches for the female is to be considered preferable.

This is the AKC's standard set for the Boxer. By the way the last post was mine I forgot to put my name sorry.......
Size, Proportion, Substance
Height--Adult males 22½ to 25 inches; females 21 to 23½ inches at the withers, preferably, males should not be under the minimum nor females over the maximum: however, proper balance and quality in the individual should be of primary importance since there is no size disqualification. Proportion--The body in profile is of square proportion in that a horizontal line from the front of the forechest to the rear projection of the upper thigh should equal the length of a vertical line dropped from the top of the withers to the ground. Substance--Sturdy with balanced musculature. Males larger boned than their female counterparts.

Couple of comments on Roger's pulled info. Many dogs exhibit aggression or animosity to strange dogs.This is particularly noted in the working and guarding breed. As well, not all pit bulls exhibit strong dominance or territorial behaviour which is the root of dog to dog aggression, this can be said of any breed or type. You would never put 2 unfamiliar adult male rotties together or shepherds or Jackies etc.
As well the registry which has the most papered APBT today is the ADBA which now surpasses the original register the UKC. Many dogs use to hold registrations with multiple Kennel Clubs. One of my dogs was registered with the ADBA, UKC, AKC and listed in the CKC.
One word of caution when reading through the characteristics of breed standards - they are heavily romanticised, mythical and down right erroneous in some cases. Most AKC and UKC dogs are well over 75lbs, my AKC Amstaff was in fact 80lbs, my UKC dogs was 95lbs (males Ruffian lines) and my ADBA pit bull was 45lbs (Boudreaux lines)
By the way, my Am Staff was the BEST controlled guarding dog I ever had, even over my rotties and he would defend as most dogs will. That doesn't equate to viciousness. The most savage dog I've ever encountered was a pure bred Boxer that would attack everyone including his owner when aroused.
DON"T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ.

Dave what you said is very true. The information I pulled is just the standard for those two breeds as written by the registries. By no means does it say that dogs of these breeds can not exceed the prefered weight. In fact both standards say that the actual height and weight are not as important as the dogs being proportionate in this sense. There are usually not height or weight disqualifications for the working or guarding breeds because ability to perform the desired task is much more important. Also I did not include the ADBA because I was comparing boxers and pits for those above that were arguing over sizes and as you and I know the ADBA only registers APBT's. To everyone else I completly agree with Dave's do not believe everything you read philosophy. These breed charecteristics are ideals and usually the norm. There are always exceptions!

I am not going to be respectful to people who are rude and like to call people names, like brandon. Sorry but its not happening

That is your perogative ct. Brandon aside however do you have anything for me? Maybe some more references?