I find myself in the unusual position of partially agreeing with Colin - in that it doesnt' seem to ring true that it is a form of institutionalized rascism of the Canadian law enforcement agencies that led to the fall-out of this case. I recently watched a W-5 story about the death of a Canadian-Indian (as in real Indian from India and not a Columbus error in geography) and the lack of attention or mobilization of the Canadian RCMP in getting to the heart of the matter of Indian brides that are either butchered or abondoned. There are definitely some barriers and difficulties in dealing with many of these cases where either cooperation from within the social community is not forthcoming, or the lifestyle of the missing individuals makes it impossible to track their whereabouts. It would be very challenging to allocate limited resources to such endeavours. There has to be greater vigilence within society to ensure that people are not left without resources and there is always an open door of trust and cooperation built with those we expect to protect our personal safety and that we don't jeopardize our own in turn. This is obviously easier said then done, and it may take a grizzly and heartbreaking situation such as this to convince everyone involved that such an initiative needs to be adopted to avoid any more scenarios of missing people - whatever their race, age, class, or creed.

I'm not trying to defend the irresponsible actions of the police in these cases, but the cold, hard fact is that they're overworked and understaffed.

35 years ago I had a custom furniture shop at 1835 Powell s\St. in Vancouver, when we had 3 breakins within 5 weeks, stealing tools and paintings. By the third time I was on first name basis with the old cop who came out to "investigate".

It was also the time of the rise of the top and bottomless dancer clubs in Vancouver, with the city prosecutor, by the name of Stuart McMorran, doing his best to close them down by sending our squads of police with Polaroid cameras, taking pictures of the dancers.

He also did his best to close down the Georgia Straight paper for alleged "obscene contents"

After the third break in, I showed some photos of the stolen paintings to the cop, who looked at them and then gave them back to me. I asked him whether he'd wanted to take them to the station for identification ?

He replied: "Ed, the only investigation your case will get is what I'm putting into my notebook now, then I'll copy it into the big book when I get back to the copshop. And that's the end of it. The only time you may see your paintings again is if the thief has pangs of conscience and walks into the station with them"

So, I asked him what is the meaning of McMorran sending out scads of cops to take pictures of nude dancers, if there's not enough manpower to investigate breakins ?

He replied: " Goddamned if I know! Maybe old Stu wants to get some girly photos but he's to bloody cheap to buy the mags".

Around that time I also had a hit and run, when an out of control Mustang smashed into my van at 12th and Main, then took off. When we phoned the police, they asked if there were any injuries, but then didn't even bother to come out to the scene. The corporal in charge told me they had 10 hit and runs every day to investigate with 3 cops. Even with the licence number, it took them 10 days to find the car, all smashed up, with the white paint of my van still on it, but they didn't lay any charges for "lack of evidence".

While the seriousness of these cases is nothing in comparison to the mass murder of these unfortunate women, it shows how the "justice system" really works.

By the way,one of our neighbours knows Picton very well and claims he can not possibly be guilty and the whole case is a coverup.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I agree with Fiat's last liner.

This is another example of the VPD trying to cover up for a colossal error that has now been brought to the public's attention.

The public is looking for someone to fry.

Has anyone considered that there could be someone else besides Pickton?

What if the serial killer is a cop (has motive, has opportunity, has cover)?

What if the real serial killer is still out there and currently dormant (like the Green River serial killer)?

I find it a little too convenient that Pickton has been singled out. I would like to hear what they found on that farm, in what state the bodies were, and why it was necessary to have a forensics team out there for almost a year and what bearing it has.

If Pickton is innocent, who will stand up for him? (And, does he even stand a chance at this point ...)

Ed, of course police are overworked and understaffed. You certainly can't blame individual officers, but someone sets the priorities.

My view is those priorities are reached by people who's view of the world is coloured by their sense of class, yes class as in class warfare or class consiousness.

And let's face it, as much as we Canadians love to think we are the most accepting of nations in the world, relishing proudly in our multiculturalism, our treatment of Aboriginals in this country is attrocious.

And by "our" I mean all of us, the media, the justice system, politicians, the whole damn lot of of us.

We view the aboriginal community as a problem, but a problem worth dealing with only when it inconveniences our resource driven, consumer focused culture.

Otherwise, it's an embarassment we would prefer to ignore.

Of course there were warnings long before police took action. Had those women been primarily of European or Asian background, there is little doubt attention would have been focussed much sooner.

Perhaps part of the blame can be placed on the fact these women came from a broken culture and broken homes, but even then you don't have to probe very deeply to realize our larger Canadian society had a hand in that and continues to even today.

I think most rational Canadians realize this, but just like any ongoing problem it is always easiest to blame those who have fallen into the pit than to ask why there is a pit or to demand an end to it.

We are all too damned busy shopping and enjoying our entitlements to even lift our heads and look around.

Sadly, as we box ourselves even more tightly into our culturally isolated, police-protected walled retreats, even if most did look up occassionally chances are we would look right past our troubled citizens.

It's a bit reminiscent of the Mindy Tran murder in Kelowna, and the trial of Shannon Murrin. There were rumours then that the RCMP were desperate to find someone, and pinned the blame prematurely on a likely candidate. Of course, Murrin didn't exactly help his cause by telling a couple of 'friends' that he had done it.....

Remember, though, that Murrin was acquitted. Hopefully, if the evidence against Pickton is similarly inadequate, justice will be done in his case as well.

I do agree with Ed that the police have been overworked and underfunded and that was a contributing factor. I also believe that only a portion of the victims were native, although I am not 100% of the breakdown of the ethnic backgrounds. I also don’t remember them finding bodies, but possible portion thereof, shreds of DNA evidence and personal items of the missing women.

I remember being in the army and we were asked to support a running race through Stanley park, driving our army truck we came across a woman staggering out of the bushes, bleeding. We stopped and gave her first aid, it was clear she was a sex worker, we flagged down a passing police car, I was shocked by the indifference that this officer showed the woman and pulled him aside. He looked at me and said it just another hooker being beaten up by her pimp. I gave him sh*t and we bundled her into the truck and took her St Pauls, as the cop would have left her there. I filed a report through my CO, but I doubt anything happened.

I used to work (briefly) as a hotel security for the old Ritz hotel (long gone) the people using the hotel were from up North and used to hire the girls on Georgia, I got to know quite a few of them and found that they responded well to anyone that treated them fairly.

What about the police inspector who using a profiling technique determined that a serial killer was a real possibility? Not only was he continually ignored by his department but he was demoted because of his outspokenness and he eventually resigned. His lawsuit against the VPD also dismissed, I think.

I just found his name... and both he and his worthy investigation into the disappearance of so many women deserve to be mentioned... Inspector Kim Rossmo was his name.

It seems he lost a lot for speaking up.

Tonesia here is a site that can help answer many of your questions.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/robert_pickton/6.html

Det. Rossmo was the first to recognize ongoing murders of tens of missing Vancouver's women to be work of a serial killer. In Nov 2001, the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General awarded with Meritorious Service [an exemplary performance that enhances the image of police officers in British Columbia. It is awarded to police officers who clearly demonstrated that they acted in a manner significantly beyond the standard normally expected.] a high school graduate Chief Constable Blythe. Blythe and his sycophants got rid of the Canada's first police officer to graduate with a doctorate degree in criminology. Terry Blythe retired not long after a B.C. Supreme Court judge found that a now-deceased inspector, Ken Doern, had given “truthful” testimony in a wrongful dismissal suit filed by a former officer, Kim Rossmo. Nowhere is the Rule No.1 (Government officials are above laws; every public servant decides what, if any, right of second class citizens he/she respects and what, if any, law and rule he/she obeys when providing services for second class citizens) obeyed so firmly than in Canadian Courts of Law. Lying is as natural and easy for testilying policemen, crown counsels and judges, as natural and easy is to count ONE TWO THREE.

Thanks for the above, POCO4746160.

On October 29, 2005 the brilliant policeman-criminologist, Dr. Kim
Rossmo accepted the 2005 Sterling Prize in Support of Controversy and
gave a speech entitled, "Loyalty to the Truth".

From that speech:

"Loyalties often conflict, and loyalty to the truth can clash with loyalty to our organization. Complicating this conflict is the reality that organizational loyalty is multidimensional. Do we mean loyalty to our leaders, to our colleagues, to the community or the customer? Maybe, in the end, we just have to be loyal to ourselves."

http://www.sfu.ca/sterlingprize/

Astonishing information. Each day, I read the so-called "news" and had never heard of Inspector Kim Rossmo before, which is a pity. That Rossmo isn't well known in British Columbia points again to the abject failure of the mainstream media.

Whatever the problems of society, we rely upon the MSM for our information. The media should see it as an honour as well as a duty, to serve the public interest by supplying the information. How else can we behave responsibly ourselves?

Today I was talking to a retired newspaper owner and editor, asking how he thought the trial of Basi and Virk could be covered. He said it would be impossibly expensive for a small weekly newspaper to pay a full-time reporter's expenses in Vancouver and Victoria for 3 or 4 months. As for the big MSMs, he said they might not want to ruffle big feathers by doing the usual backgrounders leading up to the trials. (We've noticed this.) And that it would be uncertain how deeply they'd want to get into the details of the trials either. (We've noticed this, too.)

That leaves only a passionate freelancer or a few stubborn citizens willing to get to Vancouver now and then, and to push their way into the gallery for a chance to hear the evidence which will be presented at the trial of Basi, Virk and Basi. It's information the province desperately needs to hear. So, suppose some inside dope (excuse the pun) does get written up ready for publication ... then what? Where would it be published? Damned if I know.

It shouldn't have to be this way. We don't have a free country unless we have a free press willing to tell the whole truth in the public interest. No wonder the police give up and crooks feel emboldened.

I hope that Tyee's first investigative project is the trial of Basi and Virk.

Pggy's palace was well known to the police, and I have friends who partied there. Even hardcore bikers say it was a scary place, and weird shit was happening there. Ronimal, a 101 Knight, claims Willy Pickton was semi-retarded, and played a caretaker-type role around the place. The cops had crime scene vehicles towed to the 'pig farm' (hardly a real pig farm - at most a couple dozen pigs). Many of these cars arrived with forensic evidence still on board, articles of clothing, blood, etc. Years of accumulated cars and detritus made for a handy pile of 'evidence' for the police to 'uncover' in their 'investigation'.
Dave , the brother who was known to invite crackwhores to the palace for after-hours partying, has escaped any scrutiny, which is downright strange, and my opinion is that a woman found wandering handcuffed and bleeding near the Pickton place in 1997 had been delivered there by the police, and had escaped.
I believe the police were complicit and even orchestrated many of the 'missing' women. The downtown east side was riddled with aids-infected crackwhores, and the cops wanted to deal with them with finality, rather than arrest, re-arrest, and re-arrest them.

tommy; are you implying that the vancouver police were responsible for the murder of these women?

After being privy to some conversations by "insiders" of the law, tommymoore's comments may be only scratching the surface

The police and justice system take their collective cue from society in the end, and this society has not much use for victims. We "rehabilitate" criminals, we do not requite victims..........go figure.......

These previous remarks made in regards to the police are not only incredulous,they are absurd.
The problem is it that when things go wrong that so many people point their finger at everybody else for their faults, when in actuality they should be pointing it at themselves, responsibly starts at home, not the police station, I know first hand how tough it is to raise a family in to days world.

from my mailbox by someonein-the-know

"{I was told a few weeks ago that Willy is innocent and the murderer was an officer with the RCMP who is not doing time on some other murders.

It would not surprise me.

It is a well known phenomenon that police forces attract killers"

would be interesting to know who the attendees where at the "Piggy Palce"

"These previous remarks made in regards to the police are not only incredulous,they are absurd."
How little you know, Woody!

Ironic that its always someone with second-hand knowledge about the conspiracy.

My brother's wife's friend of a friend of a friend knows some-guy who is a friend of these two dudes and they said that bla bla bla

I call bullsh*t on these "stories".

Michael Clift
in that case Amigo
cancel your subscriptions to ALL print and other media
Sheesh!

Diogenes says[from my mailbox by someonein-the-know
"I was told a few weeks ago that Willy is innocent and the murderer was an officer with the RCMP who is not doing time on some other murders.]
I you have such information, why not name this killer, and help Willy regain his freedom. Put his name on the screen.

oooowh, Good retort!

do you honestly believe the judiciary would act any differently?

Wander around in the following site http://www.rwnicholson.com/
Click on this link
FORMER B.C. PROVINCIAL COURT JUDGE - DAVID RAMSEY - SENTENCED TO SEVEN YEARS FOR SEX CRIMES AGAINST TEENS - JUNE 01, 2004

AntakeNote isaid I receivedan email Ididnot receive a name, so you are making your request of the wrong person.

Diogenes:

Turn off the x-files reruns. David Ramsey broke the law and it wasn't covered up by the VPD/RCMP/Crown Prosecutor.

The what? Never heard of them.LOL

The Vancouver Police force, as the Toronto police, have a long history of beating up people. Sure, some of them may have "deserved" it, but they--and their victims-- were entitled to a trial, to make sure these were the right guys for the crime and that they get jailed. There is, also, a long history in ALL police forces of blaming the victims of domestic violence or rape as "she asked for it". In the States, a study discovered that 37-39% of the wives of policemen were beaten by their police husbands. And police forces anywhere are mostly male and inherently dismissive of women'concerns. Mostly, they think prostitutes are subhumans and their disappearances as unworthy of investigation. No such consideration of "johns", as oppportunist "perps" in their minds. The police in Edmonton are the same as the Vancouver police years ago, when the 'Pigton' murders first started. The Edmonton police have allowed 60 or more murders/disappearances of prostitutes to go uninvestigated. Anyone else would naturally assume most of these murders have to be the work of a single serial killer--or two serial killers working in concert. Everyone who who reads or watches anything other than the Bell-Black-Asper media knew about Det. Rossmo's geographic profiling YEARS ago. But then, in those days, RCMP Sgt. Peter Montague was pretty powerful and influential over police action anywhere(you'll recall he was the guy behind the specious and unwarranted attack on Premier Glen Clark on behalf of his party, the Liberals. He inherited a whole whack of money and retired.). Probabably in his and other policemen's minds in those times, the deaths of prostitutes constituted "street-cleaning". The really scary thing is, those poor women were probably tortured long and hard before they died. Most are addicts (OCD, maybe), had endured unbelievably abusive childhoods, and/or suffered mental illnesses. The Vancouver Polce also missed Clifford Olson, even though a rookie figured it out long before. Often, these guys/killers have been "known to police" for avery long time.

Pamela George, a woman from the Ojibway nation, worked as a prostitute and was brutally murdered in Regina, Saskatchewan by two young, middle-class white men who had solicited her services.
[She was solicited by "one man" the other was hid in the trunk unknown to her.]

The defense team argued that George was complicit in her own murder by virtue of her risky profession. The judge asked the jury to consider this "fact" in their deliberation.

This last paragraph speaks volumes, this is why the police are continually being frustrated, charges are brought foreword against a suspect (criminal) the prosecutor and defense cut a deal chances are the suspect will walk or receive minimal punishment,the next hurdle in the gong show is the Judge who will either,let the case go because of a technicality e.g. the cop made a spelling error or inadvertly wrote am instead of pm, or in many cases the judge invokes low or conditional sentences or as in the Pamela George case the Judge made an irresponsible remark to the jury, who in turn let these two criminals off with very light sentences.
Im of the opinion that because of the ineptness of the judiciary it has had a profound effect on the moral on the Police, in addition this has caused a back lash by some police officers to act irresponsible and beyond their mandate and out side of the law.

Start throwing around a lot of rumour about this case and you'll end up screwing the Tyee due to the publication ban on details of the case, and maybe even get Pickton a mistrial to boot which won't serve justice either way. Wise up folks.

Stump what color are the clouds in your world?

"Stump what color are the clouds in your world?"

a thin blue line?

Interesting thread. The VPD are almost as corrupt as the Sureté de Québec. Except the VPD are smaller and have more enemies in provincial and civic politics. It really is unfortunate that the RCMP were prevented from opening up the VPD from stem to stern. It would have been a healthy process. It's the incidental things that come to light during the course of those kinds of investigations that are really at the crux of the matter. Blatant and public police abuses are just an external symptom. If I were Attorney General the first thing I'd do is give the RCMP carte blanche to sniff around the VPD. Then I'd have them quietly scrutinize the senior bureaucracy at Vancouver City Hall.

I still find it astonishing that Pickton killed all the women himself. I don't put it past him - But how possible is it that Pickton was paid to dispose of the bodies of prostitutes killed by organized criminal elements over an extended period of time? Is he fronting for others?

Also, isn't it true that there was a lot more discovered at this farm than has been revealed in the media? I don't want to be a rumour monger but I've heard some pretty alarming things (albeit second-hand) from people who purportedly came into contact with this investigation.

Before everyone thinks that only the judiciary, cops, lawyers, and media are responsible for the glaring and tragic events at Pickton's farm I would suggest they read the court transcripts in the trial of Pamela George's murderers. In addition, the Razack article. One of the murderer's mothers, and I have to paraphrase, was of the opinion when told her son was being charged with murder, "what's all the fuss, she was an Indian, and a hooker."

She didn't even deny the possibility of the charge, she denied the very humanity of the woman murdered.

Prior to the investigation of the pig farm a woman escaped one of the "parties". She had been stabbed more than once. she made it to a neighbour's house, phoned for help and was willing to testify. Picton was charged with attempted murder. The charges were dropped and I believe they were dropped the day they were to go to trial.

Mere months ago the police asked anyone who had bought and still had in their freezer meat or sausages from Picton to please contact the police so they could take the meat or sausages and test them for DNA.

The story was dropped quickly, supposedly to spare the families of the missing any more horror or anguish.

Obviously even the cops believe some of these missing people wound up butchered, sold as pork, and, doubtless, eaten.

Hannibal the Cannibal alive and well and living in the houses of people who bought farm fresh pork?

We will never know "the truth". We seldom get a chance to even glimpse "the truth". I think Tommymoore is on to something. For crying in the night THINK...look at Willy Picton..how strong does he look, how bright does he seem... you want me to believe this little dweeb did all this ON HIS OWN and was smart enough to get away with it for twenty years?

The body count is up to more than sixty. How many others haven't been found because they were put through the stump muncher and the slurry fed to the pigs? How many others had their meat stripped from their bones, sold as pork and eaten and the bones broken and then sent to the reduction plant with pig bones and turned into bone meal fertilizer?

And you want me to believe Willy Picton figured out how to do that on his own?

Don't be so insulting. Of course Willy had help, and of course he wasn't alone and of course there was collusion and of course the cops could have done more and didn't because the women were hookers, druggies, one of the missing is a transvestite, and many were First Nations.

And I'll bet twentyfive cents NOTHING comes of the investigation into the "why" of things because it's just another case of cops investigating cops.

Bravo, anne cameron
Society’s marginalized are far to easy to write off.

I agree totally with Ms. Cameron that the most important thing to remember here is that those women were real people with real lives and real families. If there was a coverup, I'm sure it will out, as the truth always does. I don't think unsubstantiated rumour-mongering is the way to respect those families or get closer to the truth. I hope you'll understand my position.

Pigs soaring over the frozen wastes of hell saw Willie Robert Pickton receive a fair trial today. The Vancouver police force entered the court room through the eye of a needle. Two dozen bikers dressed in nuns habits watched the proceedings. Slobodan Milosevic, Saddam Hussein, and George W. Bush jointly confessed to the atrocities and a statement from their pro bono lawyer - Johnnie Cochran - was read.

I am an old man now and all my thinking life I have wondered why it is that we are so re-active.
Vancouver's skidrow pre-dates my 60 plus years and in all those years there has been no successful movemnt to Eradicate those circumstances that leadupto The Firsdt Nations women being on the street.

THe sexual abuse of both genders of First nations children is well known and I know members of those religious congregation that are still in denial about what went on.
Thep[oint is Don't be so quick to disreguard what I and others here have brought to the fore

Diogenes I looked that site over, yes, lots of bad people out there.
http://www.rwnicholson.com/

"{I was told a few weeks ago that Willy is innocent and the murderer was an officer with the RCMP who is not doing time on some other murders'
and the american gov't planned 911.
what a bunch of shite!
get a life dio.

elliot
you may be able to read and write
But you cannot comprehend
Neither of the lawyers here are my source for the picton case
I will not name the source
Instead I will give you and the readers
url’s to do your own investigating
All is not as your hallucinations
I appreciate the opportunity to show the readership who and what you are
Thank you for affording me that
Dio

http://british-columbia.ca.human-rights.org/eisbrenner.htm

http://www3.telus.net/tho765/JudgesPage.html#eisbrennerjudge

http://mujca.com/brave2.htm

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050702102955619/print

http://www.law.syr.edu/academics/centers/clbe/Ancient%20Law%20and%20Sacred%20Texts.asp

http://radicalpress.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=947&ARCHIVE=

There is more on Karl on the net

Now google the Jack Cram story

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/clark/cram.html

http://www.preferrednetwork.com/Pedophilia_In_Vancouver.htm

http://www.radicalpress.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=126&ARCHIVE=

Have your Mommy or Daddy explain this one to you Elliot
http://www.radicalpress.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=182&ARCHIVE=

I think people should not ridicule those who question the Establishment views on the Pig Farm.(Or anything else for that matter) Skepticism is a necessary part of one's mental tool kit. The authorities have proven to be liars and cover-up artists over and over again. Who is more foolish? Someone who believes what our rulers say or someone who is suspicious of them? I would, through experience, put my money on the suspicious folks.

Let’s try another approach to the Pig Farm and police neglect-racism-collusion etc. Think of an alternate reality where Picton is not a murderer, but a pot grower. The Piggery is a huge pot farm. Now this alternate reality Picton is a generous fun-loving guy so, he invites scores of hookers and bikers to party on his farm and toke up his high grade hooter. Soon rumors of the farm circulate all over the Lower East Side. I bet the farm is busted within a week of the cops hearing those rumors.

dio; you live in a very strange little world. good luck.

Tommymoore:

LOL. You've confused truth and justice. We all know GWB is war criminal as much as any other.

Funnily enough, I had a meeting at work today to discuss publication bans generally and Pickton specifically.

According to the media lawyer speaking at this meeting, anyone posting banned material, or pointing people towards websites that contain banned material could be held liable. That includes both the poster, and the controller of the forum in which the information is published.

I also invite you to consider the case of the Courtenay woman who was found guilty after libelling (or slandering, I forget which) teachers on her website during the strike.

Now, all you armchair experts can tell me how I'm wrong.

But before I go, I'd like to know how you're any different from the corporate thugs who flout the law when you choose to ignore due process?

You have a point Stump and it may be worthy, yhere are however moderators on this site and They would have deleted harmful substanse would they not?

Elliot,
Oddly enough we inhabit the same world and our views differ. Mine may be broader than yours and that is no reason for personal attacks.

Your beliefs, whatever they may be do not alter fact.
My post that started this exchange is admittedly third hand at best and was meant to call the minds attention things not being as they appear.

this is how you play it
"I don't believe you. therefore you are at fault!"
personal beliefs have little to do with realities beyond your narrow belief system(s).

Of all the search phrases that are typed into our site-17% over the last year and one half month in and month out feature the name, or some form of the name of Willie Pickton.

The American media desperately wants to Hostelize this go awful made in Vancouver horror show. The establishments fear of the negative attention on Vancouver with the Olympics and such created the desperation of first attempting to deal with this murder in Port Coquitlam.

A Robbins poll conducted in Port Coquitlam revealed that much of the population thought there was more people involved in the murder. Many of the older inhabitants of that city had at one time or another partied at the pig farm.
There are many many secrets about the pig farm which go far beyond Willie Pickton-

This trial has been moved to New Westminster.
My contacts tell me that the U.S. and International media are far far far more interested in Willie Pickton and the Pig Farm-than they are in the Vancouver 2010 Olympics-

No information is permitted to be broadcast from the courtroom into the news or otherwise-
but unlike many journalists in Canada-those abroad see Polling as news.

With the information in this trial expected to drag out-journalists abroad have already begun to see the delay as an attempt to keep the ill will of one of the most shocking murders anywhere in the free world in the last 100 years from interfering with more 'positive' news stories like the Olympics-and they are itchy to do something about it. One need only to see the key dates in this saga from Feb 5, 2002 until the Voir dire commencement to understand that there is a discernable slowing of the trial tempo.

What than is really happening as this relates to the investigation and the trial-including the worst parts of this?

When $100,000 will buy a prince sharing a kiss, or fat Hollywood starlet caught strolling (rolling) on the beach in screw up your life magazine, and European media willing to cause a riot over 'free speech',
..what becomes of the market for news in the Pickton Pig Farm story when the news is kept from an ever demanding international news media?

Who is responsible for this demand?

Stumpy did you happen to mention or ask the talking head,that you were also on this particular site, and that you may have alluded to the topic, therefore is it not possible that you may have implicated yourself into potential wrong doing.

I believe the ban relates to information provided in the court room only.

A Judge's ban only has jurisdiction of the information which originates in the court room.

Anyone can speculate.

The concern of course might be because of the horrific nature of these crimes, can Pickton receive a 'fair trial' by a jury particularly in little New Westminster-or should the trial really be held in Vancouver?

ROBBINS Sce Research A question that maybe you can answer, has the defense stated for a fact, that they will have a trail by Judge and Jury.

I haven't heard anything about this. We have had people lurking around Douglas College-where folks from the Courthouse go from time to time-but I haven't zeroed in on this.

Information available to the public has been charged with 27 counts (May 2005), missing women is at 68, BC Judge disallows application from Pickton for Special Order to prevent people from discussing what they hear at pre-trial and now Voir dire.

We are a ways away from determination of trial by Judge or Judge and Jury.

Bear in mind in December 2003 Pickton told he will face 22 counts of murder. About one and one half years later he faces 27. There are apparently 68 missing women. If all 68 go to Pickton at this rate charges will continue to be handed down until 2016.

When are the Olympics being held again?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Is it possible that Pickton's trial will have to be heard in Fort St. John or even Medicine Hat?

Woody:

I haven't posted anything that would fall under the publication ban.

stumpy you state it in your thread, here it is.

I had a meeting at work today to discuss publication bans generally and Pickton specifically.

Woody:

And that would fall under the publication ban in what way?

Mr Robbins:

One is certainly free to speculate, but as I mentioned upthread, a recent court decision found a woman who had posted defamatory comments on a website guilty because the argument was made and upheld that she had the same obligations as a journalist. My understanding is that in essence, we are 'self-publishing'. As I also mentioned earlier, just today I asked a lawyer if bloggers and posters to a forum are also held to that standard and his answer was yes.*

*the above in no way represents actual legal advice from a real live attorney-type, you should get your own opinion, your mileage may vary, this may not represent typical weight loss results, yadda yadda yadda

I found this on the BCTF website. All the keywords one should need to do further research if so inclined.

-----------

Teachers win defamation case

Nine teachers, a former school trustee, and a parent have won a resounding Supreme Court victory over a Comox Valley woman who defamed them on Internet sites, in chat rooms, and on e-mail.

In reasons for judgment released January 11, 2006, Madam Justice Jacqueline Dorgan states that parent activist Sue Halstead "published the defamatory statements in the context of a prolonged and sustained campaign of character assassination against each of the plaintiffs."

Judge Dorgan wrote: "Ms. Halstead’s shockingly vicious attack upon, and her manifestly fictitious account of, each of the plaintiff’s character and conduct is deserving of rebuke... Her actions are malicious and cruel."

Halstead, a long-time volunteer and self-described president of Parents Against Violence Everywhere and the Comox Valley Learning Disability Association, was active at the local and provincial levels with the BC Confederation of Parent Advisory Councils (BCCPAC). She twice ran unsuccessfully for school board.

"Ms. Halstead’s use of the Internet in the publication of defamatory statements was incessant and the reach was broad." Evidence showed that these allegations were defamatory and fictitious.

Judge Dorgan awarded the individual plaintiffs over $600,000 in compensatory damages, a further $50,000 in punitive damages to be shared amongst the eleven, and costs to the BCTF.

Judge Dorgan concluded by praising the plaintiffs and expressing the hope that with the end of the litigation they would be able to move forward in their personal and professional lives. She wrote: "Each of these remarkable people has displayed strength of character and professionalism throughout; each has exhibited a passion for and a commitment to the education and well being of young people in their communities. Not only students, but the community as a whole, suffers when those involved in education are unfairly and unnecessarily publicly maligned."

The court decision can be found at:

http://www.bcsta.org/pub/e-Alert/J%20_Dorgan_Newman_v%20_Halstead2.pdf

Pages and pages of delicious legalese, but page 10 para 27 deals specifically with the Internet. Again, my understanding is that one can argue a publication ban would fall under the same area.

Flame away, but don't shoot the messenger OK?

I don't understand how anything to do with a publication ban relates in any way to libel?

The publication ban would relate to material presented in court, argued about in court etc. which if published may impact on someone's ability 'to get a fair trial'.

The teacher's legal case involves defamatory material posted on a website. The essence of this legal case has to do with culpability in cyberspace.

To breach the publication ban I would expressly have to print material on this site, or my own site for that matter which is embargoed by the ban, from the court.

I have been threatened many times with legal action, and usually send the folks some of my legal handy work-it goes away quickly-

I would not however ever place the Tyee in a situation where it were implicated in any way.

Speculation can be construed as opinion. I might have an opinion that someone or so and so is crooked, but if I state that someone is in fact crooked when they are not, and they are 'damaged' as a consequence than this is different. Also if that opinion is about a public person than I am permitted my opinion. If that person who is the object of the opinion is just a regular person, and the context of the opinion could be construed as defamatory by a reasonable right thinking individual than the court may permit the suit.

I think intent is a large part of that.

I think Stump has only 'flagged' himself as someone who might have information which could be considered 'banned material' under the Order, but he hasn't published the material per se. Having more proximate opportunity of access to banned material doesn't satisfy the requirement of publication of the material which would constitute the breach.

One flows from a criminal court Order, and the teacher's defamation follow tort law.

I have had bloggers post 'actionable' comments about my polling. I got pissed once and threatened to sue, but have put aside that thought for the moment.

The blogger (and the proprietor of the website) and everyone associated with the website are potential defendants. I would need to prove their postings were wrong, and they would have to prove themselves correct.

It has been awhile since I have researched the law on libel, but if memory serves me there is an element of reverse onus in there.

Polling is pretty much protected by law. If we conducted a poll of say 1,000 people and someone said it was a fraud-I could sue the whole shooting match for libel. I would file an affidavit with a sample of the poll which reflected the outcome of the entire amount with some of the numbers of each telephone number blackened out for privacy.

If the Judge Ordered it I would provide the telephone numbers, but would not breach the privacy of the respondents without the Order.

I would demand to see the defendant's Poll over relatively the same news period--that refutes my findings.

Without that there is no defence.

A pollster can ask the public any question he or she chooses so that as within the content of the question (as in the Pickton case), there is not material information which only could have been obtained from the court hearing the matter, to be in breach.

If I asked the public if they thought OJ killed his wife, while that trial was under a ban (for example) and 90% answered 'Yes", I am not in breach of any court Order as the Court is there to facillitate a fair trial, not to have oversight on the public's opinion.

That question could have some obvious ramifications for legal counsel in terms of whether or not they selected a trial by judge or judge/jury, or whether or not they argued that a fair hearing could be had relative to the scope of the public being polled.

Another thing. I believe that if a blogger or website-where the proprietor is situated in Winnipeg for example libels me-and I am located in Vancouver, BC or Seattle Washington-than I can attempt to have the jurisdiction for hearing the matter in Vancouver or Seattle if I believe that there were people in either of those two jurisdictions who could have read the blog-or defamatory material.

Service would be affected as per usual for persons outside the province or the country.
I could if I saw fit, file a lawsuit in Los Angeles California against a Canadian blogger if I believed they defamed or libelled me and claim the LA court jurisdiction (for example) where the damages (as in NY) or particular high, if the case is won. I believe both California and British Columbian have a reciprocal agreement when it comes to Judgements from one jurisdiction or another.

So a Judgement obtained in LA against a Vancouver defendant, I believe could be registered here if I am not mistaken.

I had a lawyer in Italy who practices International law tell me that a particular case of mine where I was libelled in cyberspace could be undertaken anywhere in the world where someone has access to a search engine like Google.

I don't want to be 'chilling' but you are going to have more and more websites edit material being placed on the site by bloggers, simply because the liklihood of material that is unlawful being posted by 'anonymous' bloggers is far greater than someone with a column in a regular paper or a talk show host etc.

The hosts could post up a no mea culpa on their site, but it doesn't do any good-because they are deemed to be as responsible as the poster/blogger.

I worry less because I conduct my own legal work and I am careful about how close I get to the line in my commentary-which I have always said isn't my opinion in the absolute sense.
My partners told me to permit even the negative comments-so long as it doesn't get too ridiculous because this is unregulated territory, and you don't want to gum it up particularly by giving someone unwanted attention, precisely what some are probably saying about me, and perhaps the Tyee etc.

Sooner or later though someone is going to blast off on bloggers. For now no one wants to recognize the power of cyberspace and blogging, but they should and they will after we elect or get rid of a few more politicians.

Stump are you aware of what you get when you cross a Lawyer with a Teacher,a Bureaucrat.
Now tell us, which of your parents were what.

Mr Robbins:
You said:
"I don't understand how anything to do with a publication ban relates in any way to libel?"

My point was that which you noted later:

"The blogger (and the proprietor of the website) and everyone associated with the website are potential defendants. I would need to prove their postings were wrong, and they would have to prove themselves correct."

The connection is that of posting in cyberspace, which is a whole new world legally speaking, as you've also noted.

regards,
Stump

As for you Woody... I'm just trying to share a little info, show some respect for the families that have been through hell and are bound to go through some more before this is all over... and you want to have a pissing contest.

Tell you what sport, let's consider me your little corporate mole, the info I passed along as your way to getting something for free from the "MSM" and you can have a little frisson of satisfaction for sticking it to the Man.

Stump- no problem dude-I was just letting it all hang out-its hard to measure tone and timber in cyberspace

Cyber-bullies, soul murderers and Willy Picton
Not to diminish the action that went on at the now notorious and nevermore pig farm it is curious to observe cyber-bullies make their appearance on internet forums.
Even to an untrained eye logical fallacies will leap off the screen in attacks meant to inflict harm.

When you feed a living thing, it grows; when you don’t feed it, it withers.

I find that this holds true for the emotional and cognitive processes within each of us as well.

I have heard several times a short "wise tale", often attributed to an
Un--named Native American elder, about a "two wolves" tale. A version
goes like this:

"Inside of me there are two wolves. One of the wolves is mean and evil.
The other wolf is good. The mean wolf fights the good wolf, all of the
time." When asked which wolf wins, he reflected for a moment and
replied "The one I feed."

Trolls are cyber-bullies and their only “power” comes from being “fed"

Stumpy your right, enough is enough lets let it slide, thanks for the frisson,it was quite pleasant.

dio; smoke another doobie.

Diogenes the following is what you should have posted

a tale of "two bulls".

"Inside of me there are two bulls. One of the bulls is mean and evil.
The other bull is good. The mean bull fights the good bull, all of the
time." When asked which bull wins, he reflected for a moment and
replied "The one that has the best line of bull."
The following from your post.

[from my mailbox by someonein-the-know

"{I was told a few weeks ago that Willy is innocent and the murderer was an officer with the RCMP who is not doing time on some other murders.]

Diogenes no need to reply,at least not to me.

What a bunch of hog wash!!!!!!!!!!!
I certainly don't think there is a cop involved
I do however believe it was a "pot farm" and
mabey a dumping ground, for a smart weirdo
who realized the large amount of traffic in
and out of the farm.the Pictons probably didn't have a clue who was there half the time!

patty, I don't think there was a cop involved either and think that you might be on the right track in the "pot farm" idea. My friend Sarah disappeared April 14, 1998 and approximately a month before, she had been talking about going into a grow op. She seemed to be serious about it. It was a way to get off the street and she said she had been offered this. She talked about it on more than one occasion. Since that time Pickton has been charged with her murder.

Before this site is archive, I want to offer my most sincere sympathies, to all the people that have been touched or affected by this most tragic, and heinous crime, my heart goes out to all of you.

Me TOO WOody!

I can't even imagine the true horrors this poor family has been going through.
{either one}too sad too think straight.

There is a remembrance walk tommorrow Tuesday Feb 14, starting at noon in front of the Carnegie Centre.