Mr. Gutstein, this is not a well-thought out article. The connections you are trying to make with 'western alienation' and the neo-con movement are not connected at all.

You state:

If this is true then Straussian mentality has been around since the 1920's and the foundation of the CCF. The sense of separation of 'western canada' has been in place since Louis Riel tried to get a separate homeland for the Metis. The connection that some other group such as the calgary one you mention is trying to use this to leverage themselves into power has got to be the least bit connected to the sense of disconnection that many who were born, and live west of Kenora feel.

Your whole argument falls to pieces when compared to the historical fact that Helmcken, wrote his commisioner's minority report saying that, among other things, Ottawa would ever 'drink of the western draught' and that BC's bountiful raw materials would be exchanged for worthless promises.

In 1870 Helmcken said, in effect, that 'manifest destiny' was a lie concocted in Ottawa to pressure the British Columbia Crown Colony into joining confederation. This puts the whole Straussian plot into the dumpster and Strauss would have been a child at best in 1870, certainly not whispering into Helmcken's ear.

Whether Harper and the so-called neo-con movement are connected remains to be proven, but the misinformation you present here regarding where much of the current 'western alienation' came from is complete hogwash.

Impressive. While there may be a few overly connected dots, I got to give Donald Gutstein for creating a compelling article. I think the idea of a neocon is overly exagerated, but it is still interesting to see how political science and economic movements may have spread.

That being said, I think a good regime change is in order, just please not let it be a majority. Its too bad Harper cannot free himself from social conservatism, as his economic ideas are useful and could fly. The challenge with all of the leaders, is that they have too many strings attached.

I also think there is a disconnect between the Western political ideas and the American Southern Republicanism. Western politicians of all stripes have taken on an adversarial role towards central politics, with perhaps the current BC Liberals serving as an exception due to their connection with many federal counterparts.

Good response from Murdoch as well.

This is all 'pie in the sky'

This is all 'pie in the sky' assumptions which have absolutely nothing to do with the current Conservative Party of Canada and it's leader Stephen Harper.

It is also incredibly stupid to parallel Conservative thinking to that of the Republicans, as both that US party and that of the US Democrats have conservative elements.

The issue in Canada is one of trust. Here we have a Federal Liberal party that has demonstrated nothing more than arrogance and selfishness in it's very core. Liberal policies seem not to follow any philosophy other than to establish poorly thought out programs in response to special interest groups. Chretien apparently overlooked their problems by ignoring graft and corruption.Martin as a senior member of the Chretien tribe either is stupid or is outright lying, since he must have known. Failing that, incompetent.

What we need is a new government to clean up the mess. We should not allow the 'fox' to mind the chicken koop, there fore the Liberals must be removed.

I think now after the revelations of recent and past Liberal contraventions, no new government would dare do the same thing. What we need is a closeto centre government to reclaim the Canadian government for the people.

Certainly the radical Jack Layton NDP could never do it.

What we needed was an opposition that was serious about making parliment work with the tools we voters had presented them with. Seventeen months of bickering and now they want us to elect a majority so they do not have to learn to get along. The real question nobody wants to ask is; "Why did the opposition parties fail to bring forward a bill on their opposition day that would end the corruption?".
They all spoke eloquently of what they would do in once in power to solve the sense of entitlement, and the corruption. They had the power to defeat the government. Why did they fail to use that same power to clean up prior to asking the electorate for (blind faith) support.
After the opposition blowing the opportunity to actually do something constructive about the Gomery debaucle when they could, voter's need to remember an old saying; "better the devil you know than the devil you don't". This election is now only going to determine who gets to feed at the trough of the taxpayer.

To my mind, Mr. Martin follows an equally controversial teaching - he's a devout Catholic. The Roman Catholic religion has a history of church authorized violence and exclusion, and continues to do so.

But it's funny that no one ever writes about that.

Harper is not the devil that the Liberal Party of Canada and members of its press corp are trying to paint him as. The Liberal Party of Canada has, however, been identified as engaging in criminal activity.

The Liberals will form the next government; of this I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that if the Liberals decide to plunge into a starkly negative campaign, the Liberals will suffer for it. Those NDP votes will stay NDP, instead of voting Liberal.

Now that the election race is on, I suggest the Liberals (no, I'm not a fan, but I'm afraid of Harper), dust off whatever audio and video clips they have of Harper voicing his support of Bush in the Iraq debacle.

And play those clips over... and over... and over...

That'll give us the measure of the man.

dangrice:

You are SO right!

Social conservatism just does not fly in Canada (with odd exceptions like southern Alberta and the Fraser Valley), and that's a good thing.

As to his economic ideas: "some" are useful. However, I'd worry about all sorts of programs that make up the fabric of Canadian society; programs that were fought for by generations of working people. I fear Harper has no appreciation for the lives of working people.

I can't believe the number of people that have lost the basic concept of governing. Governments are ELECTED by the people. They shouldn't be bought by big business or special interest groups. I too firmly believe that the conservative party has a special agenda. One of their biggest cover lies is that they will scrap the gun laws. Right.
So far in the last 17 months I have only seen one party do anything for the people who elect them. They had the leverage and they used it. There is nothing Radical about the NDP. This is the only party in Canada who still realize that the people elect them.
I sincerely hope that the majority of the people in this country have figured that out.
And while I'm at it I personally think that the Bloc are the worst offenders. All they want to do is form a new country for self glorification. And in the meantime they want to keep all the percs that Ottawa has given them.
Now I'm sure I will hear from a couple of people here that the NDP are losers and are affiliated with unions. Before they spew off they should check out what is happening within the party.Both federally and provincially.
It's time to wake up and start voting for what counts. The conservatives and liberals have had their chance for over a hundred and fifty years. Let's move on.

This election will definitely determine who gets to feed at the trough of the taxpayer.

The main question is whether it will be the public in the form of improved services, or the major corporations, especially the multinational carpetbagger mafia, with their insatiable profit demands. Another form of taxation that's never mentioned, because that wouldn't be "business friendly".

Both the major parties are on this, "business friendly" bandwagon. The only difference between them is the speed they're trying to accomplish this task with. Martin wants to do it slowly, Harper tomorrow.

Having grown up and been educated in an ultra conservative, fascist society and family, I can recognize the smell of the Straussian fascist, neocon plan in Harper's eyes, face and actions. The same hysterical ideological madness I grew up with and listened to for 18 years of my early life. It used to be called in Hungarian "tekintelytisztelet", translated "honouring authority".

In those days the "authority" meant a military/church based aristocracy, now it is the power elite put there by imaginary capital created by the banks for the purpose, while transferring the responsibilites on the public, or the "taxpayers" if you like, in the forms of daily increasing living costs and shrinking incomes to "become competitive". Which means constantly increasing profits to satisfy the stock and money markets, while millions starve to death every year around the world.

Our "globally competitive market" system is just another form of warfare, because wealth can not be created, only taken. The good old, "My god is more powerful than your god" syndrome used by every past empire and colonization scheme.

The deregulated money creation powers of our banks are nothing less than the creation of another artificial deity, and the neoclassical theory that maintains it, jus another pseudo religion. With deregulationm money ceased to exist as a tool of trade and became "A licence to control resources and energy, issued by a special interest sector for its own benefit" (My definition)

What this power elite never mentions in their mad quest for "competition" is that the concept is a fascistic/nazi ideal.

As Hitler wrote: "Mankind has grown strong in eternal struggles; and will only perish through eternal peace"

We can see this in the actions of the neocon gang, supported and kept in power with the theories of the von Hayek, Friedmanite, Chicago School neoclassical economic theory, now used to brainwash students with in all our, and the world's universities.

I never took economics in my post war Cambridge years, but having known the student body, full of hope and energy to build a better world, if a professor had tried to teach the neoclassical theory, he'd been laughed out of the classroom. Now those who don't teach it are hunted down and exiled, from what I've been reading.

Harper is the product of this fascist theory and if he gets his hands on power, we can kiss Canada goodbye.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

The Strussian politics and philosohies you described were very intriguing. This the first I've heard of it...and you did present some good evidence... I dont have time to research on the internet, so im gonna believe everything you fed me.
I enjoyed it very much, now I have to go to history class and answer questions on the defeat of the Wiemer Republic.

from, Your Future Student

The Straussian school of thought and its pernicious influence in American policy over the last few years has been widely written about in various American journals. Good to finally see this slimy underbelly being revealed in Canada.

Donald Gutstein gets the tenets of this fascist philosopher, and his followers, exactly right. A number of the commentators, however, seem to miss Gutstein's points.

murdoch: Gutstein does not claim that Straussians (neocons) are the source of "western alienation"; he is saying that they are USING the (as you point out) long-established core of Western disenchantment to further a deeper, and more sinister social agenda. Just as Wolfowitz, et al, used the (generally) decent impulse of patriotic feeling in the U.S. to hide a sweeping agenda (an unreasonable and illogical war; curtailment of social liberties; attacks on the Constitution, etc. etc). Gustein's argument doesn't fall apart at all.

dangrice and sdgreen:

the point is that Harper is NOT a Conservative (or conservative); though he may share some basic notions with true concervatives, he has a radical political agenda that will see MORE -- not less -- government control over social issues and personal freedoms, in the most insidious way (or "incrementally" to quote Harper); not unlike the agenda that has already become a reality in the U.S. under the guise of "fighting terrorism".

Harper is not Joe Clark; he's not even Preston Manning.

And the Republican Party, by the way, has not been "conservative" in its policies since Ronald Reagan. I would have thought we'd got past that misconception over the last few years.

As long as Canadians can be mezmerized by the relatively minor scandal of a few mis-spent dollars (minor compared to joining the 'coalition of the willing', and being deeply embroiled in a war being fought for oil companies, which action Harper had proposed) then we are being successfully misled by the Straussian tactic of "bait and switch".

We may need a new government (what country doesn't?), but the Alliance/Reform interests that conjoined under the banner of the old Conservative party (after Peter Mckay sold it out), now allied with the Bloc (which wants to dismember Canada), are not going to help with "western alienation", or any of the pressing social issues Canadians currently face.

Such as: are we going to remain an independant country (if in fact we still are), or officially declare ourselves a satellite state of the U.S.? Are corporate interests (most based in the U.S.) going to dictate the rules and regulations and freedoms by which we have constructed Canadian Society until now?

Our political, economic and sociual independence may have slowly hemmorraghed uner the Liberals, but it may still be salvageable; under Harper's "Conservatives" we will inexorably bleed to death.

Oh boy, am I ever scared. This tactic of demonizing Harper won't work this time. Nice try though.

Spot on grub. While I can only imagine what those families in the US are going thru after losing a son or daughter to this illegal war, the worst part of me says better their son than mine. I make no apologies for saying so. Harper would have had our troops in Iraq and we should be asking if he would still do it. Lord knows no one in the Canadian media has the cajones to ask at every campaign stop. Now that the pigeons are coming home to roost as more and more Americans finally voice concern and doubt about this debacle, I will not and never buy into the silly crap about those south of the 49th "protecting" the rest of us because we were too cowardly to. Protect us from what?

A well thought out and researched article. Names are named, dots are connected. Stevie Cameron hasn't been sued on the contents of her book, "On the take," and its doubtful that Gutstien need worry. His suppositions make sense and the Theocons will ignore them, for reacting will give them credence.

"Power corrupts, but the lack of power corrupts absolutely."
Adlai Stevenson

here we go! 8 weeks of spewage from the tyee. i wonder how many union members know their dues are being spent to preach to the converted on this site every day? what a waste.

Gary Writes:

This original author, Mr. Gutstein, in my view represents one of these 'special interest groups'. Ask him where he generates his income. If it comes from a federal government source, in any way. Then you can bet that he wants the 'status quo' to continue. Therefore this sort of article writing will continue.

I shall not waste more time on this issue.

Thanks for this great overview of new-con philosophy and possible allegiances, but I think what you are saying is that the neocons- American and Canadian-are willing to partake in "dirty tricks" to get into power. This hardly seems like anything new, but I'm going to do some due diligence on Straus before I decide on the connectibility of your dots. (Thanks to dangrice for this great little phrase) I think a huge story in our Canadian politics is that Harper doesn't seem to be able to beat the Libs in spite of the fact that just about every single Canadian is at least a bit choked about the sponsorship scandal. I mean, you'd think Diefenbaker's 1957 "it's time for a change" mantra would come into play here. I think we'll be working with the "devil you know" sentiment come election day and Martin will win again--probably with a small majority. Canada is still pretty liberal-minded, eh. I just can't wait to find out who the Conservatives are going to come up with for their new leader after Harper fails again.

Oops, "new-con" was a typo, but I kinda like it.

Ron, the demonic Harper is still around from the last election. It hasn't and won't go away. You right wingnuts should have ousted him and roasted him on a spit long ago...

elliot- So why are you here? That's right- Unions are vewwy vewwy bad.

Close advisors schooled in 'the noble lie' and 'regime change' is the most significant article ever published in The Tyee. Thank you, Donald Gutstein. A few may chip away at the edges of your statement but it doesn't change the validity of the theme. It's a tragedy that so many who must rely upon CanWest Global just don't get it.

Coincidentally, today I was contacted by a CBC producer for The National. Now me, I'd die fighting to protect and support the CBC. But nevertheless ... it was almost a Straussian moment. The purpose of the interview was to determine my political status, which is absolutely OK by me, and then: "How do you feel about the way Quebec will vote in the federal election?"

I'm still thunderstruck that a News-Gathering Person could imagine that Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc Quebecois is the foremost question in the minds of British Columbians right now.

"I don't have an opinion about that," I said, which is not true, but I couldn't think of anything useful to say. Honest to God, what with Nov. 17 in the B.C. Leg., Basi & Virk and all, I hadn't been worrying about Quebec. So I fell back upon that old ruse of answering a difficult question by asking another question.

"So you're trying to find out how Western Canada feels about Quebec in this election?" I asked.

"Well, some of the Bloc policies are much the same as the NDPès party platform, so we're wondering if that means that some Bloc votes will be switched to the NDP."

I said, "So what are you hearing from Western Canada?"

CBC: "Some people don't like seeing a large group of M.P.s in the House of Commons who don't support national policies, a group they can't control. But you seem to be OK with that ... ?"

Sensing the trap, I said "Heck, I want Quebec to be happy, to join hands with us as we all dance around the Maypole ... but they'll decide."

End of interview. I'm still not sure what I ought to have said. I do care about Quebec. I care a lot. In my salad days, there was a venerable rallying cry: "Raise hell and sell newspapers!" We understood that. Bad news sells.

But I think in this case, what I ought to care most about is whether the National Public Broadcaster should be looking for supporters of a divisive issue. It's all just a bit too Straussian.

Thanks again, Donald Gutstein.

Donald Gutstein paints a very interesting picture of these characters.

Not surprisingly our own Working Man and the whiner Elliot both fit the description to a tee, especially the tendency to avoid talking about the obvious.

BC has the highest rate of child poverty in Canada thanks to our provincial Liberals. If we let Steven Harpers'similarly far-right leaning Conservatives into power child poverty no doubt will only increase.

Do you want more corporate profits or more children suceeding in this country?

The neo-con code is often transmitted through purposeful ommission. Just listen to any speech by harper and you will see. Moments ago, on conservative nemesis CBC, I heard the dark one say that: "Canada will be a place where one can obtain medical attention when one needs it". Fair enough but what he ommitted to say, ofcourse, is that under the conservative system that statement will be ammended to include: "if one can afford it." at the end.
It's almost entertaining, in a macabre way, to reconstruct statements made by these moorlocks. You must not only learn to read between the lines but to fill in lines aswell.
That he and his big-business fraser institute cronies support the most corrupt, incompetent and morally bankrupt regime in American history should be enough to warn Canadians of the conservative party and what a dire threat they are to almost all of us. (corporate elite and themselves aside)
p.s. - I cant't wait for the all-candidates meeting in Squamish. Mr. Reynolds, did you enjoy the comic book on 9/11 I left for you?
I hope they enjoyed it at the republican national convention.

Right on, Porthos, when you ask if Canada will remain an independent country. If we still are.

If harper wins a majority, we will become, effectively, another Puerto Rico.

The Bloc will certainly be in favour of a Steven Harper, PM. Almost a guarantee that Quebec will vote to seperate when the next referendum comes along.

Since we can't seem to get enough people to see the light and vote in an NDP majority, I guess the the best we can hope for is another Liberal minority. Only with more NDP MPs this time.

It's a mystery to me why people can't see that harper has his own agenda. Must be willful blindness.

From the National Post in the year 2000, Steven Harper said, "Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its ...social services to mask its second-rate status."

He hasn't changed his mind. He doesn't just want to change the government. He wants to change the country.

murdock:

I'm as baffled by your last comment, speculating as to where Mr. Gutstein "generates his income" from, as I was by Elliot's total non-sequiter about union dues....

I don't know how Gutstein obtains his income, nor do I (or should you) care. The elevance and accuracy of his recearch is all that matters, and whether or not you agree with Gutstein's conclusions, his information about Strauss, Bloom, Morton, Knopff etc. is correct.

As for "demonizing" Harper, if you agree with the father of neo-con philosophy, then Gutstein's 'connecting the dots' to link Harper with this philosophical school should please you. If you disagree with Strauss's ideas, then you may wish to do more research of your own.

Opinion aside, Gutstein has provided well-researched and verifiable historical facts that should cause people to examine Harper (as they should all potential political leaders) more closely and critically.

Re: this constant whining about how union dues are spent ?

Of course, unionists have the right to demand accountability from their leaders, so do taxpayers from governments on how taxes are spent. This is what this whole election is about.

But unionists and the taxpayers also should have the right of accountability from corporations on how they spend the obscene profits they steal out of the public's pockets with ever increasing prices and lower wages.

Profits are necessary for businesses, but at what point do they become outright crime, theft, robbery and con job ?

What right do corporations have to demand unlimited profits? And why shouldn't they be accountable on how they spend it ? After all, they all come out of the public's pockets and I bet, when we go for our month's end shopping trip we'll find many prices that have been jacked up by up to a dollar, without any explanations or excuses, only to please the stockmarket gamblers who buy their stocks, hoping for and demanding more for nothing.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

The Staussian conspiracy theory is old, old.

It finally hit mainstream with the publication of "The Rise of the Vulcans" (about the Cheney-Wolfowitz-Rice et. al. cabal). Prozac-sodden journalists at NYT & Atlantic Monthly then regurgitated variations on the theme. It resurfaced in the press again with the election of Pope Benedict in the spring. This article is so derivative it hurts.

I don't care about the rest, but Allan Bloom simply must be rescued from this ignominy.

He almost became Camille Paglia's PhD thesis supervisor. I guess that almost makes her a Straussian too.

The 3 part BBC series the Power of Nightmares did a lot on Strauss and the Muslim Brotherhood (showing their similar roots).

Good viewing and obtainable by download.

Oh no! You guys are scaring me! I'm in the final stages of LEAVING the US, due to all the stuff Gutstein cites -- and you're saying it's coming to Canada? Will I have to move to Sweden instead to find a country that cares for its people more than it cares for their money?

This is one area where I, believe it or not, agree with the writer. Harper is a nasty piece of work. Just look at his record while he was the head of the National Citizens Coalition. That crap was a carbon copy of the Bush agenda and I for one want no part of it.

The problems is the kind of simple message that such dogma carries is on fact very well received by the lunch-bucket brigade. It is easy to understand and carries a simple message. This accounts for the levels of support Harper receives in Western Canada. Ontario is now more a service based economy of educated people, hence the lack of success of the Reform-Conservatives.

At the end of the day, politics is about voting for the least bad person. I am old enough to realise that idealism and poltics do not mix anywhere. When I am confronted with the choices I am, I will vote Liberal again in the Federal Election. In a similar sort of situation I, as young man, voted for Lyin' Brian. Learned my lesson well on that one.

what a nutjob article idiot should get back on his meds, his paranoid factor is off the scale.

Nightbloom: what is your point? The duplicity connected with the destruction of buildings on Sept. 11 is old. George W. Bush stole one, probably two elections, and that story is old, old. Are you suggesting that this invalidates the thesis?

Wow, now that's what I call alarmist. Frankly I don't think the Conservatives are smart enough to come up with such a plot.

nice spin fiat. do you think the green-chain worker in pg knows that his hard-earned union dues are paying for this lefty spewage site? give me a break. your self-righteousness makes anne roberts look humble.

jamex, you are correct. With the likes of Randy White, the Reform-Conservatives would be hard pressed to even spell "conspiracy," but really, they are not much different from the lefties here, equallly grey, white and afraid.

However, the lefties have a lot of free time on their hands while they wait for handouts so hence the conspiracy theories they so love. The right fanatics have plenty, too. Look up "new world order" on google. It is almost a direct duplication to the Left's Chicken Little Blithering. Heck, I have been hearing how the sky is falling since my first year of university all those years ago. Hasn't happened yet, either.

Not surprisingly our own Working Man and the whiner Elliot both fit the description to a tee, especially the tendency to avoid talking about the obvious.

Really? So, allan, have you figured out what a "straw man" is yet?

You should get your cheque on the 21st this month if I can remember such things. Don't waste the extra $50 you'll get, ok?

WM, you just jumped about 15 points in my estimation of you.

Now all you have to do is stop thinking everyone who disagrees with you is on welfare, although it does make it easy to not deal with arguments.

I see you are also quite familiar with the date. I have a weather imposed break. The regualars here are here ALL the time. Why is that?

BC Mary - I think there can be a confluence of incidents, people, thought and interests without there necessarily being a nomenclature as perfect & symmetrical as the conspiracy theorists like to believe. You can spin nearly identical theories of causal relationships from either end of the political spectrum.

Harper will self-destruct, but what he's doing is a standard attempt to create a constituency (or patchwork of constituencies) based on the issues & discontents of the day, using the tools at his disposal. That doesn't make him any more or less Machiavellian than operatives of the other political parties. In fact, his own worst enemy is some of his own people - that's the conspiracy.

Sure, there are politicized cadres of academics and politicians of various stripes everywhere...But it seems that the criteria being used to determine whether a "conspiracy" actually exists seems to be whether we happen to agree with them or not, and that's no criteria at all.

Conspiracy theories seem to have a great deal of currency out here on the West Coast. It must have something to do with the disproportionately high rate of daily pot consumption. The whole Lower Mainland swings from reverie to anxiety to paranoia based on the relative density of the massive cloud of fragrant smoke that is perpectually present out here.

Sorry Working Man, but you are wrong once again.

How are your apprentices making out these days?

Busy or on the dole again?

That aside, I must say I'm with Frank on your sudden slide away from the far right, although I'll only give you a 1.5 point improvement.

That's because your method of communications still leaves a lot to be answered and why do I get this suspicion you're probably linked to the federal Liberals in BC who got in bed with their provincial Liberal pals.

Of course the issue there are those nice Liberal organizers who got jobs in the legislature, but had to leave after the place
was raided by RCMP.

Tell me Working Man, are you and Paul Martin going to distance yourself from that ugly crew or will it be up to Gordon Campbell to sort of hide until the election's over?

I hope Gordo will be out supporting his national leaders, Paul Martin or Steven Harper.

WM, if you're referring to me I'm on a computer almost every waking hour.

Somehow I doubt you, Elliot and Ron Erwin are coding in C++

If you had any initiative you'd find work when the weather puts you off the job. Seems kind of lazy to just shrug and say I can't work cuz its snowing.

I have power backup so that even if the power goes out I can keep working.

But it is funny to hear guys who are here 24/7 like you Ron and Elliot spout off about the "knowledge sector" say you can't work because of snow.

At least this blog and others like it expose liberal government teat suckers. Old shiny mansbridge started things off for the sleaze B sleaze very nicely yesterday, now watch the curb worms surface.

It must snow a lot where you three live because I'm gone for 12 hours, sometimes even a month at a time yet when I come back you guys have been posting constantly.

Not being Canadian, I'm not as up-to-date as I should be regarding the people mentioned in the discussions. I do want to implore you to do all you can to resist this corruption of Democracy by the neocons.

Before Reagan and his wrecking crew took over the US, our entire national debt was about $850 billion. Reagan ran on the promise to balance the budget and pay off the debt. Instead, after eight years of self-righteous corruption, it was in the trillions. Just one of his scandals alone, the Savings & Loan swindles, cost us that $850 billion by itself.

But even worse was the legacy of "dumbing down" our schools, the start of free rides for millionaires and crooked corporations, and the elevation of superstitution to divine heights.

Since then, we have been in a free-fall, economically, morally, and spiritually. Our present owners, the Bush clan, have been involved in every major scam and swindle of our time, including the S&L money-maker, the BCCI affair (called the greatest banking fraud of all time), and the Iran/Contra/cocaine collection of crimes almost beyond imagination, where guns were supplied to Middle East terrorists and Central American Death Squads, with cocaine for the poor blacks in Los Angeles.

I have to admit, it's not just that we're being run by what I call the Bush Crime Family, but that right now our CEO is their Fredo.

The thing to remember, teen, is that Neo-Conservatism is also a cult.

It is ironic that a cult that says its followers are in fact superior to others attracts people who are so very inferior. (using their own world view of better than/less than which is not how I normally think)

Jester, you are correct and many of us can decode their 'speak' right away. I think quite a lot of the public can even if they may not be able to articulate just what the code is and have never heard of Strauss etal.

Martin is also a 'market fundamentalist with a twist' (that corporations rule) which goes along with this cult dogma as well, nevertheless as the prime-minister he will do a lot less damage because he is experienced and understands he has to listen to his whole party, even if he has frozen out the liberal liberals. He also may have some respect for some Canadian traditions because of his father. But, one never knows.

I think we already had our regime change and that was the bloodless coup which put Martin in power. It wouldn't surprise me if it was in fact originated from the B admin.

Fortunately for we here in BC it is safe to vote for Layton without putting the country into the hands of Harper.

Have you all noticed what heavy drinkers these types are? Harris, Harper, Campbell and Klein? I think it's because the whole 'cult' 'market fundamentalism' is also an addiction and these people stay out of their feelings and vulnerablitity at all costs. We know the absolute persuit of making money and workaholism is not a virtue, but a flaw.

Ed, yes that weird awe for authority is a weird, icky thing .

Exceptionally good article, Donald Gutstein.

Harper doesn't like people. He doesn't like the social contract embodied in the idea of true governance...and he doesn't like Canada....largely because it has been a country that has honoured the social contract.

So this soulmate of Bush America is perfect in Straussian terms...and the neo-con interests that back him know it. So now he's up to bat once again for them in a scenario that no doubt has been well choreographed as Gutstein reveals....one step closer this time for this dead wood, awkward quisling that could so easily destroy this country if he wins.

How much Canadians value the social contract and the idea of freedom and democracy inherent in it as opposed to the "social family values" of the Straussian neo-cons, (values that are based on adherence to rigid religious belief and authoritarianism...and thus necessarily anti-democratic at base)...how much we value the freedom embodied in our uniquely Canadian social system... and how much we are paying attention will determine whether scary-as-ever Harper sneaks in... in this step-by-step Straussian idea of regime change that Gutstein alludes to.

The difference in these two definitions of social values also marks the difference between the United States and Canada. So far... at least, it has been Canada's saving grace.

And, also according to Strauss/Plato to prevent the citizens from becoming enraged at their exploitation and rising up and murdering these so called "elites". lol

A good article Mr Gutstein. There are so many tenticles to this belief system that it isn't easy to reduce it into a small article.

http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.05.23/oped4.html

This is an excellent article as well. I love the line about them thinking they can beat the house...

Re Western alienation - it is anything that divides. They are destroyers. They tear down what others build.

I think many will leave now that some, Black, Libby etc have lost their savings at the table.

tentacles etc...

If you think the picture above is SCARY, have you seen the one with Svend Robinson necking with Yasar Arafat ?
Now that's scary !

this article's a crock. nothing but lefty propaganda and fear-mongering. no constructive ideas from the left = lots of spewage at campaign time. hopefully some of you are embarrassed about the bleating.

And, we have to remember too, how convenient this cult is for those who have no conscience and are stealing other people's money and assets.

Elliot seems to like the term

, since he uses it, instead of ideas and discussion. And the charge of no ideas from the left sounds like the charges from Republicans that liberals in the US don't have a magic way of getting out of the terrible mess in Iraq, brought to us by the neocons.

They also assert the Iraq debacle is the fault of the Democrats, because they let Dubya and the neocons do it.

Well, I'm sure we will all be punished severely when Dubya coronates his new neocon Justice of the Supreme Court.

Play close attention when you hear "conspiracy theory" . The psychopathic right-wingers will use every trick in the book to win a few votes.

Before I sign off, there is one more point to make. Like all extremists, the neocons do not play by the rules. Winning is all that counts.

Our government in the United States has been corrupted and perverted, taken over by corporate power, religious kooks, and the politicians in their pockets.

Their sophisticated manipulation of the media (much of which they own), resulted in the demonization of a genuine war hero, and the aggrandizement of the cowardly draft-dodger in office.

It was done by the clever association of emotionally-laden labels, which overcome any rational thought. No matter the logic or argument of an opposition candidate, the neocons would continually associate his name with something that would evoke a visceral negative response. Such a response trumps any rational thought, so the very mention produces a bad feeling.

It's more than that, of course, it also includes the corruption of our representatives, and the packing of government with ideologues.

We now have the military spying on civilians, citizens kidnapped off the street and held unconstitutionally without representation, secret prisons, and secret government operations which used be in the open.

Oppose all this at every turn, lest you, too, lose the very freedoms taken away for which our government supposedly stands, taken in the name of liberty and security.

gkam, I will forward your comments to the Iraq insurgents. I am sure they will be bolstered by your words. Maybe I will send a copy to Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore as well.
I don't think you respect freedom at all.
You probably work for Iran.

But gkam, the putative Straussian Allan Bloom was one of the first to call attention to the "dumbing down" of the American curriculum [The Closing of the American Mind, 1987] Moreover, his idiosyncratic relationships with other alleged Straussians (like Wolfowitz, whom he made fun of) is described by his good friend Saul Bellow in the crypto-biography Ravelstein.

I'm sorry, my friends, but this article is last year's fashion trend. It's a Canadianized précis of Anne Norton's mediochre Leo Strauss & the Politics of American Empire.

Besides, the bona fide neo-cons in Canada have always been tepid about Reform/Alliance (Bay Street never opened its purse strings for either incarnation), and I sense they're still waiting to see if this newest pig will fly.

I want to thank Ron Erwin for reinforcing my prejudice against right-wingers.

For the book, Ron, I volunteered for service in Vietnam in 1967, thinking I was supporting "freedom". Instead, I saw the truth and gave up my conservatism and self-rightous selfishness for liberalism and honesty.

It ain't easy, Ron, but it's worth it. By the way, if you love "freedom" for the Iraqis, why aren't you over there killing for it?

"hopefully some of you are embarrassed about the bleating."

Personally, yes, I am embarrassed by your bleatings. One usually only hears the mine, mine, mine, gimme, gimme, gimme tirade from the pre-school set.

Hi. I'm back. I was just out shovelling the foot of snow in my driveway then working in my shop. OOPS!I wasn't really working you see. Because I can't. I'm a pensioner. And holy jesus I live on a union pensione. And if I didn't have that I wouldn't be able to survive because the money I dumped into OAP and CPP wouldn't cover the cost of my fuel. Why, you ask? Because the fuel companies keep spewing all these lies about how they don't have enough fuel because of wind or hurricanes or whatever. Crap. We just went through the fuel thing and guess what. Diesel (which is cheaper to refine) is now about $.10/L more expensive than gas. Why? Because the sleeze bag oil companies tied it into the price of home heating oil.Then they said that we were going to have a cold winter and there would be a shortage. With global warming the way it is? At the lake where I live it used to freeze over in mid november. Now it's after the first week of december.

Now if you over paid right wing spin doctors who can't work because of the weather (Your reasons)or you have lead tied to your ass can't see what's going on with this one small example of the BS being slung by big business and their government cronies and newspapers, you will never get it.

I don't really give a rat's ass if Gutstein is paid by Castro or Martin he has written a very informative article. Period.

And Ron there is no need to reply. The only reason I read your posts anymore is because they give me a good chuckle. I can't beleive anyone can post the things you do and still breath.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10666

lol Gary, and when you think how we citizens paid the hospital bill for these wankers to be sprung from the hospital after they were born, well...

Forgive me for being crass. I wish I could think of a more apt word for the proponents of this movement. But, it seems to be just the right one. It describes their maturity and their thinking so well. I'd prefer another word, but until then...

Good points gkam. I'd say welcome to Canada, but I'm not quite sure what I would be welcoming you to any more.

The world now sees what George W. Bush has done for his countrymen.

Three months after Hurricane Katrina, the first public school has opened in New Orleans, quite a sad record, isn't it, of the priorities that are now out there for the world to see in what we always thought was the most wealthy country on earth.

I'll just note that Ron E is an outspoken proponent of private schools so he might miss the relevance of a public school opening.

But other readers will no doubt see the potential of Steven Harper bringing those priorities to Canada should the Conservatives pull off a victory.

pardon me for interjecting....

http://www.republic-news.org/archive/127-repub/127_potvin_sam.htm

...what's Harper's standing in Ontario public opinion right now - anyone know? I count just under 2 dozen seats in ON and zero in Quebec. The whole "regime change" point is moot if he can't radically alter that situation. I think things are as good as they're going to get for him in the Western provinces, and his image in the maritimes has never fully recovered since he made those disparaging remarks a while back.

"gkam, I will forward your comments to the Iraq insurgents. I am sure they will be bolstered by your words. Maybe I will send a copy to Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore as well.
I don't think you respect freedom at all.
You probably work for Iran."

F**k, are you dumb.

I guess we have 2 months of propaganda and rhetoric from thetyee and it's posters ahead of us, must be Christmas for you posters. The rhetoric reaches a comical level when elections are upon us. I guess now’s the time you bring out the heavy hitting comments.

My favourites so far; conservatives are a cult, unions aren’t a special interest group, Harper hates people, Harper hates Canada, business shouldn’t make a profit, Canada will lose it’s sovereignty if you vote Conservative and everybody that isn’t falling of the left side of the political spectrum is stupid. The funniest part is that no one on this site is going to vote for a party that's actually going to win the election.

Oh elections.

I will be waiting for a critical piece about Layton from this bastion of objective journalism.

Last spring Ford and GM issued a press release praising medicare (socialised medicine)as a huge business advantage for Canada because they do not have to supply expensive health insurance for their employees. GM spends more on health care in the U.S. than they do on steel.

So why is the Conservatives federally and provicially trying to dismantle it. It is a social program that really does work and is cheaper than private care so it has to be destroyed because the ideology says the government can't do anything. The right-wing have never been able to explain why private health would be cheaper and are reduced to arguing for "choice". Only the rich will have choice the rest of us will just have to choose the cheaper diseases.

...okay, this just hit the wires: Harper has just reintroduced the 'Same-sex' headache on the very first day after the vote kicking off the election countdown.

Straussian Mastermind indeed!

Like I said, they're their own worst enemies. I don't know a single educated conservative who's interested in revisiting this issue.

They're hopeless. The Liberals are going to have fun with this one.

Grub (7 hours ago)

Three Martin quotes on Iraq that YOU mightlike to have played over and over and over again:
"I really think Canada should get over to Iraq as quickly as possible" Paul Martin, North Bay Nugget Apr. 30/03

"I don`t think there is any doubt, if there ever was.....that Saddam Hussein does have weapons of mass destruction.....that he had lied and that he is continuing to lie." Paul Martin - Calgary Herald Mar. 7/03

"The problem is......we know well that there is a proliferation of nuclear weapons and that many of the weapons that Suddam Hussein had, for example, we do not know where they are, so that means terrorists have access to all that." Paul Martin - Globe and Mail, May 11/04

"Once the war in Iraq began, Canada was far from neutral." Paul Martin - CTV News, May 21/04

Do you doubt for even one minute that if Martin had had a majority that we would be on the Bush team with the Brits, Australians, etc???

How quickly we forget!!

aaahhh jeez. There's JIm. Good to sse you again JIm. Just to let you know why so many of us are here. You see the big business newspapers don't let us give our opinions. Now the Tyee on the other hand even lets you give yours. We may differ JIm but we respect your right to free speech. Have a nice two months.

By educated conservative do you mean the "new" barely right of center image they are trying to portray. Sounds like Harper forgot to get elected before spilling the truth.

I had to come back and apologize to all for getting snippish with Ron. But my conversion from selfish conservative to liberal was both difficult and painful, and to have my integrity challenged by others ignorant of the process is often more than I can withstand without nasty comment.

But I learned in the war of my generation to distrust whose who appeal to my prejudice, who tell me the things I want to believe, who would use my good intentions against me. Those are the tools of the demagogue, the divider, the destroyer. Those are the tools used by the neocons to take over my country.

By the way, I read the "interjection" by canuck cougar with interest, because that's been happening here in the US since Barry Goldwater. The hardliners began by subverting local groups, creating and funding national politically-active organizations, and infiltrating school boards, local offices, and the like.

Now, they control all three parts of our government, the military, and the mass media.

The parallels to the likes of Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Hideki Tojo are scary.

I am beginnig to wonder if the government "of the people, by the people and for the people" is lost forever.

Just added!!!!!!!

Conservatives will destroy health care.

nightbloom, it's nice that you're aware of some of the history of Straussian thought as it's leveraged its way into Canadian politics. However, there are many readers of this forum who don't have this background, and for whom Gutstein's article is therefore useful.

To paraphrase an old Rabbi I know, 'the holocaust was certainly a conspiracy, but boychik, that doesn't mean it didn't happen."

Information is never "last year's fashion trend", and even if it were, that does not make it any less true or relevant.

And just because Harper seems largely inept at conveying (or hiding) his agenda in a pre-election period, doesn't negate Gutstein's allegations: no one claimed Harper was a mastermind; no one, I think, even suggested he was clever; just that his connections with the Straussians were evident. He may quite likely screw this one up too.

Also, since you claim to know who the bona-fide neocons of canadian politics are, perhaps you might list them in this forum for our mutual benefit? Just a thought....

Actually Gary Canwest (Canada.com, ironic considering conservatives hate Canada) now has a forum section so you can speak your opinion of the corporate slave masters out to destroy Canada.

Also added!!!!!

Conservatives are now equal to leaders and regimes that commit genocide.

'The parallels to the likes of Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Hideki Tojo are scary.'
that's all i need to know about you gkam. if you believe that crap you're an idiot.

"if you believe that crap you're an idiot"

I guess that's what passes for intelligent discussion by the neocons. I doubt Elliot even knows who Hideki Tojo was, let alone his techniques, his crimes.

Since the new Conservative Party was created they have had 1 week-end policy conference. This is supposed to make them qualified to run the country? We still do not know what they will do once in power except plunge the government into more expensive court cases fighting gay people.

Whatever Stephen Harper says now is to soften his party's image to get elected. How else do you explain his standing ovation from the Fraser Institute when he supported and defended the Canada Health Act. They know it is just words.

Thanks JIm. I wasn't aware of that because I had not been reading them for quite some time.
And gkam, don't let anybody here get you upset. We all have opinions and you will be able to pick out the constructive ones as time goes on.
For the rest a good read on what's going on can be found here: ratical.org/ratville/JFK/STchp1.html
It sure speaks volumes for the lies that have been told by the U.S. administration. It's quite long ao reading in your spare time off line would be good.

We better back up a bit here....Mel are you implying that GM actually uses steel in their automotive manufacturing process?

sorry folks. it looks like a broken link. Try googling "The secret team" If it still can't be found I'll try hunting it down.
One thing disturbs me though. This is not the first time I have tried to return to a very informative website and found the link broken.
Conspiracy? maybe.

Mao killed 70 million of his own citizens. This is gkam's hero. This is all we need a Michael Moore wannabe on our midst. People like gkam are dangerous to our way of life. If he gets his way we will all be living under a Muslim distatorship where he will have no freedoms period. ( That is if he isn't personally in charge )

The views of fundamentalist christians regarding the role of government controlling peoples personal lives are not much different than the views of fundamentalist Muslims.

The article never established the Straussian credentials of the Canadians it mentioned. That was upheld by nothing more than innuendo (the mere fact that they studied under Allan Bloom - a giant by any standard - and Berns at U of T). Luckily for me, no one has judged me by some of the characters I've studied under (yet).

The only thing we know is that these Canadians are neo-conservative (because of their public record). I'm not aware of any endorsements on their part of the tenets of Strauss' philosophy mentioned in the article (noble lie, etc.). Predictable response: "It wouldn't be much of a conspiracy if they came out & said it would it." Really.

So it's not fact - it's conspiracy theory. The Straussian connection is hardly "evident", to use your word.

After looking over the article a second time, I think Gutstein has presented us with a fun intellectual bauble to toss back & forth, but whose basic argument shouldn't be taken nearly as seriously as some on this thread appear to be doing.

That's fine if you want to credit the neo-conservatives so lavishly - I've just never observed the kind of co-ordinated and profound cleverness in the Canadian specimen that such a conspiracy would require.

Ron it's jokers like you that don't respect freedom. Guy's like you are responsible for the patriot act, communist headhunting in the 50s, oppresion of native people etc...

so just zip it you hypocritical palooka

maxwell informs us:

Do you doubt for even one minute that if Martin had had a majority that we would be on the Bush team with the Brits, Australians, etc???

How quickly we forget!!

You're right, I had forgotten. Thanks for reminding us.

But, yes, I doubt that a Liberal majority gov't would have had Canada involved in Iraq. There may be a significant number of corrupt weasels in the Liberal Party, but they're not war mongering nutbars.

Uh, the war was well underway when Martin had a majority

"Mao killed 70 million of his own citizens. This is gkam's hero. This is all we need a Michael Moore wannabe on our midst. People like gkam are dangerous to our way of life. If he gets his way we will all be living under a Muslim distatorship where he will have no freedoms period. ( That is if he isn't personally in charge )"

Ron Erwin has something wrong with his head. I send reasoned notes, and he hallucinates something he really must want to believe. Okay Ron, here it is:

I fought the Commies in Southeast Asia. I oppose fundamentalism, whether religious or political. And you have nothing but abusive comment going for you - no facts, no reasoned dialogue, and apparently, no ability to defend yourself without character assassination.

If you can't act like a grownup, get off the discussion boards set up for grownups.

Maxwell, geez man, check a calendar. You remember the little guy from Shawinigan? Remember how the US right went after him?

Iraq happened before Martin was leader of the Libs.

Chretien kept us out because he thought Bush was a moron, he didn't want to spend money on the military and because with Germany and France, among others, refusing to go he was in good company.

"sorry folks. it looks like a broken link"

Gary, go back one slash in the URL, and it will work.

JIm, "I will be waiting for a critical piece about Layton from this bastion of objective journalism."

Will this come after a pro-Layton piece that will be published in a Can-West paper in this province?

That'll be the day.

I don't know if I accept the idea that Stephen Harper is like George W. Bush.

The kind of parallels your asking us to agree to insofar as the U.S. and Canadian experiences are concerned are a little tough to swallow.

Canada is not a country that would accept Mr. Strauss's concepts in the way that a U.S. 'regime' might, even in the remote no-impossible chance that Mr. Harper received a majority government.

Canadians as far as I can see if they voted in the U.S. would be around 60+ Democrat. You cannot pull off the kind of things Mr. Gutstein is suggesting in Canada even if you wanted to.

I figure Canadians are more concerned with what the heck happens with their money, and who they are going to entrust with it in 2006.

I don't think they are even considering regime change, but having said that the U.S. is getting alot of our good stuff under Liberals.

I am a little more wary of this distraction

gkam, "I had to come back and apologize to all for getting snippish with Ron."

This has to be the funniest thing I read today :)

Imagine, apologizing for being snippy with Ron Erwin. I think I'm going to die laughing

Jim said "Canada.com, ironic considering conservatives hate Canada"

What's more ironic is the guy that bought that dot com renounced his Cdn citizenship and now wants it back

Robbins again ... drawn like a bluebottle fly to the stench of a dirty election campaign ... back for a little free advertising ... grrrrrrrrr.

My reports out of Afghanistan indicate that the French and U.S. military are hanging out together in more a military sense than anything more passive.

With all due respect to that young Canadian we just lost, and to his injured buddies, Canada's role in Afghanistan IS very passive.

So despite the rhetoric of the past as between the French and Americans, apparently on the ground they are working together. In reality there is some apparent cooperation between these two countries, and our guys are not part of what the other two military's are doing there.

It may be nice for us, but from what I understand the men and women wearing the Canadian uniform are feeling a little left out.

Ron Erwin : "People like gkam are dangerous to our way of life. If he gets his way we will all be living under a Muslim distatorship where he will have no freedoms period"

Oh please stop Ron, in another thread you claim you worry about the third world, which includes Moslems, all day long and are happy Canadians are losing their jobs to them because you're really an airy-fairy citizen of the world who just wants to stamp out poverty globally but not here.

Of course you also claimed you wanted to nuke Iraq but consistency has never been your strong suit.

Not to mention CSIS probably gave him accurate intelligence.

"...profound cleverness...", Bloom? As if it takes profound cleverness to abuse the principle of 'good faith' and the public trust to an unsuspecting citizenry. No, it takes profound sociopathy and profound stupidity to align oneself with such a bankrupt ideology.

Robbins, Canada has been duped for the last two decades over precisely this and unfortunately our assets and belongings that are being stolen and have been stolen, the ridiculous taxcuts and the mainstream acceptance of such radical pressure groups such as the Fraser Institute and The 'Taxpayers' Federation, reflect this.

"Imagine, apologizing for being snippy with Ron Erwin. I think I'm going to die laughing"

Point well taken.

"Imagine, apologizing for being snippy with Ron Erwin. I think I'm going to die laughing"

My mother taught me to never pick on someone who couldn't defend himself.

BC Mary- I forgot to thank you for that RSR monikor I have used it in a couple of radio interviews. Its like CCR or something like that. I kept the long name as a type of code thing for marketing the information later. So in that sense it kind of works against me, unless people are really interested in politics.

I admit my website hits are going through the roof but I don't think it relates much to the Tyee right now, however I admit we got a lot of hits from the Tyee over the municipal election.

It makes me wonder about your comment about how much influence these blogs have on elections. I have been reading numerous articles about this from all points. It is definitely a phenomenon of sorts. I think blogging is becoming a little like bunjy jumping people are learning more about it, and are interested but I suppose it can be a little scary for new people. On a bad day I don't even want to look sometimes-other times I can't wait-I suppose that's the fun of it.

My idea wasn't so much to claim for advertising, having been a publisher in a past life I can think of better ways to manage public relations, however in terms of where I wanted to go with this public opinion polling (and believe me I was working off the seat of my pants) I thought putting a person on the end of some discussion (good or bad) would not hurt considering it was change I was hoping to instigate.

You are right, in a way it has been both a blessing and a curse, because unlike regular advertising formats for goodwill-the blogging will bless you and bleed you.

Many bloggers are quite ideological and their opinions are in absolute contrast to any you hear over the telephone where most respondents don't want to be overstated and many are understated. It is actually the cumulative effect of more passive respondents who provide the best outline of public opinion-the ideologues you contact are normally predictable at least to the limit of the scope of questions in a poll.

However, I find sites like the Tyee more of an educational tool, because it provides me with a deeper insight into the ideology even if it is sometimes inflammatory.

So in a sense you are right BC Mary, but I think participating here helps in a number of other ways to give me a better balance of all perspectives.

The blogs are also more tiring.

CIRE Coalition to Ignore Ron Erwin - Membership is free and the benefits are immediate, the guy is a clown and he
is only here to antagonize anyone at any expense, although it is very temping to point out what a dork he is just ignore him as his only goal is to direct the conversation in non productive directions. The fact that folks like him exist show just how important these forums are, lets have action based forums and not explain ourselves to clown's
like Ron

"If I had my way I would have nuked the entire country"

Ron's quote of the Iraq war, the guy is a nut job just here to play games, don't play with him.

What gets me is that all people who support this including the professors will eventually lose. Nevermind in the ways that hurt the feelings of progressives, and social justice issues, but in real and tangible ways that will effect you too.

Once the plunder is complete, do you think you'll still be working at a university when there are are so many fewer? And, what will your wages be? Surely, you don't think with labour broken and so many competing for your work, you will be paid enough to live on? You don't think you'll be working in a gov't that no longer has to hide that its a front for only a few? You don't think there will be public subsidies for private schools and hospitals do you? It won't be possible. There won't be any money to do that. The 'few' don't care.

Perhaps you think your holdings and real estate are secure and it won't matter. Look again at 'new' eminent domain in the US, deregulating companies and stock markets and that will only be the beginning.

No, there will be 'enforcement'military jobs and domestic servant jobs and that will be it. And, that's all there will be whether one is a university prof, or a senior gov't worker, or one on contract. You see, you are considered one of the vulgar masses, as well. You too are being duped and tricked.

Sad, but true.

Isn't Ron breathing yet. Imagine that.

"The right wing claims that people are hostile to government. Period. But they're wrong. What people object to is government that isn't working for them, doesn't listen and isn't on their side." Jack Layton

Of course in the world of conspiracy theories, any "connection" is sinister. I suppose anyone whole drives a Volkswagen "shares roots" with Hitler. One could (more "convincingly") argue that the NDP "shares roots" with the mass murder regimes of the 20th century, because they were influenced by Marx. Or that Jack Layton "shares roots" with the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" because it advocates building subways. I prefer reading party platforms to understand what leaders think, rather than engaging in flights of fantasy, thank you!

So if Hitler's son ran for the Cons we would just read his platform and not dredge up family history?

This just in, history began 45 minutes ago...

Platforms are a good start but you need to know background. Otherwise the federal Libs could wave a red book and proclaim every election that they're going to get rid of the GST, eliminate child poverty and strengthen health care. Hmm, they do claim that...

I and many of my colleagues have increasingly been dealing with various ministries a lot for the past couple years. Done a little lobbying of all the political parties in the House and the Senate.

What I have learned over the past couple years? Its the bureaucrats that freak me out.
We can change governments, but I don't think much will really change.

Those policy advisors and Assistant Deputy Ministers seem to have Ottawa by the tail. I wish someone from academia could do a study to see who the Wizard of Oz is and how they took control of the real agenda and the levers of power dispite the sometimes protestations of elected officials.

In case this unwieldly (below) link doesn't work this is a column by Thomas Walkom from The Star.

In my view that civil liberties should biggest election issue for Canadians. Above gkam correctly illustrated how the good old U.S of A was taken over.

And we think it can't happen here?

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1132354211818&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907626796

"They claim the charter is the result of a conspiracy foisted on the Canadian people by "special interests." These nasty people are feminists, gays and lesbians, the poor, prisoners and refugee-rights groups who are advancing their own interests through the courts at the expense of the general public, these Straussians allege."

Man, I can only hope that the Conservatives actually use that as part of their campaign. It is unbelievable the the Conservatives haven't figured it out yet. If they want to win they have to shut up about the Charter and social values. The problem is that their supporters still have a love-in with the glory days of the Reform Party where members got up and booed homosexuals. Without a doubt, some Conservative will make some outrageous comment in the media and Harper will not be able to distance himself or the party from the statement in fear of angering his base. LOL. It's so funny. Harper only wishes they could be like the author claims the party is. We are on our way to another Liberal minority government.

The belief that people, generally, i.e a majority view, was the best policy decision maker is not of course an idea unique to Straus or to neo-cons. Plato thought deciding questions by asking everyone what they thought was a poor subsitute for reason, as did his student Aristotle. Not sure what the point of this article is... that Harper is a neo-con? Didn't we already knwo that? That Harper is like Bush? This is a very superficial insult...

Very good link, PeteL. Thanks.

Somehow I doubt you, Elliot and Ron Erwin are coding in C++

I would never have to. I would pay people like you to do it.

Cool, just like I pay people to pour cement for me

So, John, is harper a plato?
We do not need to allow those elites to use reason, they are too thick. They are supposed to do what we tell them with our votes.
You are basically condoning the lieing that gives politicians such a bad name in the first place. They dont seem to get it. Tell the truth or we vote u out. There is a lot of reason there.
commentor: John
posted: 2 Hours Ago
The belief that people, generally, i.e a majority view, was the best policy decision maker is not of course an idea unique to Straus or to neo-cons. Plato thought deciding questions by asking everyone what they thought was a poor subsitute for reason,

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051129.wgaymarriage1129/BNStory/specialDecision2006/

Harper's suggesting another free vote on redefining marriage. Talk about kicking your campaign off with a bad start. Who's a civil libertarian like myself suppose to trust nowadays? Martin and his money shovelling munchkins.

Tell me, do any of you long for the wonderful days of ancient greece when they had ostracism. I have a few names I can picture myself scratching into a shard.

dangrice

Hats off to Harper. You have applaud any and all politicians who will honestly disclose their values and platforms.

Here's hoping we get more such candor from him! LOL

Nice to see the Staussian connections finally getting some air. That particular stench has long been on the radar of poli sci wonks like myself, but because the underpinning if the "philosophy" is to control thought through the use of narrowly defined icons, the free press was the first to be fettered.

The apogee of press control is on display in Washington DC, where a compliant press core revels in the 'Senior Washington Correspondent' role to the point where journalism has been reduced to regurgitation. The selling of the Iraq war is seen by Straussians as a text book example of how to lie to reach desired ends. The current bush campaign to re-write history is now well underway.

There is no surprise in Harper raising the fag/dyke legal humping spectre again, as this execrable smoke screen will attract knee-jerk voters who will either ignore or be blissfully unaware of the real Harper agenda.

This article is pure unsubstantive bunk. Talk about a conspiracy theorist gone bizerk - you're reading too much fiction Mr. Gutstein...you should invest in a better library or update your periodical subscriptions.

Hey Big Ed...what planet do you live on? Do you work for a living or contribute to society in some neoclassical meaningful way? Wealth creation is not a zero-sum game. I buy a lot for 200 grand, build a house that costs another 300, sell to someone for 600 - who have I stolen from? If there is no opportunity for profit (incentive) no enterprise will ever get off the ground. You owe your standard of living to capitalism...get over it. Otherwise give your property to the government and go live in a cave somewhere. One more thing - your arguments are more than tainted aside from being wrong - your words are actually dangerous. Get a clue to how the world (capital markets) works before shooting your neoclassical mouth off.

Big Ed, I think you've smoked Working Man's big brother out into the open.

"Your words are actually dangerous," warns pekes.

To what or whom?

Profiteers, perhaps?

allan, you have not replied to my question:

"What is a straw man?"

You only have two more Wednesdays before payday. Hope the donuts are not too stale today.

What makes me sick is this entire election, I am sick of people like Harper telling me what Canadians want. Hey buddy, what we wanted was what we voted for 18 months ago, Canadians voted for a minority government
and gave the Liberals power put not absolute power. I guess the political elite will keep at it until one takes their prized dictatorship.

What scares me is that the fact Harper has no platform, no clear , open commitments to anything. Saying that their going to clean up the Liberal mess is not a platform . What he is saying with this rhetoric is that if elected he will do as he wishes for his masters at the Fraser Pimpstitute and say that hard choices has to make to clean up the
mess etc, Kind of like Mike Harris on Steroids.

When BUSH was in Ottawa , Harper requested a private meeting with him, he also wrote a letter to the Washington Post apologizing to Americans over our non participation in Iraq.

In short those who are vague or have no platform get to have us the public assume the worst. Get ready for a roll back
in 30 yrs of social values and progressive gains made in this county. I recently seen a signed letter by Harper in my church, we need to challenge this perverse notion that the conservatives are the holy party. Jesus was a socialist and did not want to live in Abbotsford.

Hey working man , imagine if you spent your life being useful . It's okay , angry people die young. Hey pekes , stop
being afraid of new ideas, not everyone that disagrees with you is evil, pretend FOX news never existed , this I feel is your problem, you have the full cable package.

gkam, earlier you claimed you volunteered for Viet Nam in 1967 but gave up for some reason I don't quite understand.
I understand, that the North Vietnamese at one point were about to surrender to the US, until suddenly the anti-war movement in the US took off. This bouted the nasty commies, and eventually the US pulled out.
The US were defeated by their own people. And it's people like you that are harming the useful effort the US is engaged in the War on Terrorism.
I find your view of the US to be wrong. They are aa force for good, not evil. I know who the enemy is, and it's not the USA.
It' you and your buddies on the extreme left. ( Democratic Party ) .

I agree with Stuart, please resist any urge to respond to such drivel. Time and time again, you will kick yourself for playing silly bugger with him.....C.I.R.E.

pekes = right wing FUD.
Must be a big Stockwell Day fan to say something like,

Having swallowed the neocon bait, hook, line and sinker, he is the perfect example of the dumbed down voter. Lacking any independant thought, as Allan says he attacks a theory as "dangerous." This is the perfect attitude they look for at Marine recruitment centres. So easy to train and then whip up into a frenzy. His first posting, Gitmo, prisoner interogation....

What does all this have to do with an election? I can't believe we're still falling for the same old story. If Canadians really wanted change, they'd vote NDP. If it's truly the civil servants driving the bus, who cares what flavour the MP is? It's painfully obvious isn't it? If you don't trust Harper, and the Liberal Entitlement Party makes you sick..... That means you vote NDP, which by the way I've never done before. But until the Dolphin Party merges with the Greens to form something credible.... it's all we've got. Send a real message, I dare you...

Hey folks Harper hanging out with the inn crowd

http://www.thunderbay.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/7014.php?theme=default

Nobody's responded to the fact that the article never demonstrated an actual connection between Strauss, his teachings, and the Canadian conservatives that were mentioned.

It basically amounts to rumour-mongering (albeit amusing rumour-mongering).

It's surprising that so many intelligent people can take it at face value & swallow it hook, line & sinker.

nightbloom, like people who still believe the NDP is bad for an economy? Yep, I know.

But as far as the Calgary School goes, they don't need to be associated with anyone else, they're scary based on their own writings.

Oh, and I thought we had lost you Working man.

Working today are we?

Hey, I've been asking you questions for weeks but you haven't responded. Avoidance appears to be a large factor in your efforts here. At least as much as the distorted.

Hey, how are all those apprentices holding up?

Allan, I don't know if you've read much from Tom Walkom, but in my view he is one of Canada's better columnists. He was just out here for the Private Clinic conference in Vancouver on Rememberance Day weekend and has written a fantastic piece that still on the Star website.

I have his columns page bookmarked. Shirley Douglas was at a Fed Convention about three years ago and mentioned Walkom by name in her speech to the convention.

Anybody interested in Federal issues should bookmark him during the campaign. Well not anybody, his stuff will give jerkingman and his ilk heartburn.

Cheers

Well I know I will NOT put my support behind Harper, the conservative party has sold out Canada everytime they get into power it seems, not that the Liberals are not selling us out.

I wonder what Harper's responce to the Downing Street Memo would be? whenever I see sign that has the Conservative logo on it I keep remembering Mulroney and I think that maybe they should put a American flag over the maple leaf in the center of the "C" in their logo, he also said he didn't know all the facts on Iraq. Tell me, Would you want someone to send you to war over something that all the facts weren't known about the reason for going? I agree that Saddam is pure evil and should have been taken out the first time but Iraq was not a threat to it's neighbours since the first gulf war and this was widley known, the sanction and the oil for food program only gave saddam more strength making Iraq people rely on him and made a few people rich at the sametime and killed a reported 500,000 people from a varity of disease and lack of medical sevices and starvation etc. don't forget the depleted Uranium in armor-piercing rounds that is also making soldiers ill.

This time I am putting my support behind the Canadian Action Party because they to me are the only ones that seem to think that real democracy can exsist so that makes me think atleast for now that they might be trust worthy. I also think that they have been around long enough to get a couple seats in the house and get the chance to prove them self.
they get ignored by the media all the time just the same way the other so called "fringe partys" do.
this next election should be interesting lets hope the outcome is really in the best interest of Canadian people and not banks.

allan, how do you live on $535 a month? That would not over my family's groceries. I guess the soup must be delicious.

let's see $8.00 per hour X 40 hours per week = $320.00 per week or appox. $1,408.00 per month.
Why would anyone , who can work, try to live on $535.00 per month ?

Snowed out again, Working Man?

Pretty much as you would. But's that's if I were and likely half as well as $1,070
would see me do.

Interesting that you make light of what some people through misfortune, must make do with.

Does it make you feel superior to those who are in need? Some insecurity perhaps?

Do you have a large family or are you just self-indulged?

Excuse me if I'm so bold as to guess the latter.

PeteL, I've read a bit from Walkom, but haven't for a while so I appreciated being redirected and refreshed.
Thank you.

Can you imagine him in a Canwest rag?

Oh, and btw, I think heartburn is the perfect cure.

Having been around the net since long before there was a world wide web (Compuserve, GEnie and Usenet) I am often amused by the numbers of people over the years that try to pass themselves off as something better than they are in the hopes their opinion will be taken more seriously.

This invariably means declaring yourself a millionaire or having a long glorious history with the fairer sex etc. And of course it means hiding behind a nom de plume while declaring everyone else to be your social and financial inferior in the hopes your own tortured writing style, usually but not always married to an inability to spell, will be given a second look by those who now skim you.

Hate to break it to you guys but if you want your opinion to be taken more seriously try writing with a little more eloquence and use some facts now and again to support your arguments. Night school offers courses on improving your writing, both grammar and style.

Declaring everyone who disagrees with you is a layabout or even a virgin has never worked on the net yet so try a new tact.

Because when the so-called layabouts write better than the self-declared "successes" it puts the lie to their claim and its pretty easy to spot.

Snowed out again, Working Man?

We need at least 5'C to get reliable pours in the kind of thigs we do. For example, a customer can being a child's art work to us and we can recreate it onto a prefabricated retaining wall, transport it onto site and assemble it. It can look really neat, too.

I have two litte boys who eat like horses. If you look at the Canada food guide you will see this is quite in line with what a family of four needs. The Guide quotes $529.00 per month for a family of four, incidently.

Did spend the afternoong at city hall. Not far from here, fortunately.

Why would anyone , who can work, try to live on $535.00 per month ?

Because it is easier than washing and ironing your clothes, showering and shaving and getting up at 6:30 am. It is much easier whine and play "poor me" that to take control of your life away from a beaurocrat.

Working Man, I'm afaid you missed my main question, but that's certainly not a new problem, is it?

I'm encouraged you have two little boys. There may be hope you will someday learn what compassion (not for me) is all about fellow.

I hope misfortune never puts your children in the way of callous, hard-assed jerks who can't get beyond "I".

Actually I got up at 5:30 am today. and likely will tomorrow as I have things to do. Oh, and I get paid pretty good money for what I will do and encourage you to declare and pay all your taxes this years so that you too contribute according to what you earn even if you don't like sharing with those in need.

Now that you know there is a Canada food guide, perhaps you might think how difficult it is for those who can't support their families to feed kids on the pittance they get.

But then I guess those unworthies could always toss away the crutches, jump in and swim upstream just like you, right?

I'll just bet all you employees think you're a nice guy. They probably say that every time you ask them, however, over a beer or two the talk is perhaps more frank.

No offence Frank.

Hey Working Man, get a heart and offer some tips to barryjo to get his tale of success back on track.

All we layabouts are peeing our pants laughing at yet another "successful capitalist" lecturing the brute masses on their lot in life.

Allan , Frank and others, don't waste time on Trolls, just my advise, your time is much to valuable to waste on Trolls, New idea’s bring them on, entrenched hatred and name calling, it just devalues the forum. Cheers .

a Troll is a person who posts messages that create controversy or an angry response without adding content to the discussion, often intentionally. Though technically different from flaming, which is an unmistakable direct personal attack, trolls often resort to innuendo or misdirection in the pursuit of their objective, which is to create controversy for its own sake, discredit those with whom they disagree, or sabotage discussion by creating an intimidating atmosphere.

Remember nothing and I mean nothing motivates the right more than their fear and hatred of the poor. Typical Church goers

stuart; you are definitely a complete moron. and a bigot. but most of all you're a fool. blather on idiot.

Stuart, not all "church goers" will vote Conservative. The church vote can go to the NDP as well. Same-sex marriage is a non-issue. Theft from the poor to give to the rich is an issue that is important to many "church goers". Tommy Douglas was a protestant minister.

Actually I got up at 5:30 am today. and likely will tomorrow as I have things to do.

Yes, the bottle picking is much better when you get up early.

I really do not know if the writer is being fair to Allan Bloom, but I doubt it. I actually attended University of Toronto when Bloom was there, but I was not enrolled in any of his courses.

Allan Bloom was a powerful writer and teacher, but I did not get any sense of his being a neo-conservative from reading his book "Love and Friendship". I would have read more of Bloom's books if they were more readily available in this backwater berg, Vancouver.

Since he was a homosexual, I really doubt that Allan Bloom would be happy with the Conservative Party of Canada.

Sue, I agree. And not only was he gay, but I believe he's an archetype of pre-Stonewall exceptionalism that needs to be revived in order to counter the toxic bath of drugged-out nihilism that now awaits queer youth when they come out.

Bloom's Jewish roots are a subtext of the Straussian conspiracy theory, and one of the principle reasons (I believe) he's been tarred in this manner. Most of the leading members of the putative Straussian cabal are, in fact, Jewish - this is one of the more unsettling undercurrents of the whole myth. This is why it's surprising the Left in the U.S. has taken to trotting it out so blatantly during election season, and now the Canadian Left is following suit. When you trace it to its roots, the Straussian conspiracy theory is profoundly anti-
Semitic (deeply anti-Israel) and anti-intellectual. It's the latest release of that old bugbear: the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (with a Left-wing twist).

LOL, what's wrong Elliot, did I force you to look in the mirror. Did you like what you see, a hard nasty angry self entitled white guy who gets pissed at anyone getting a hand up. You want proof of my comments go read over some of your buddies posts above. Ronnie why hates gays and immigrants and women, then theirs you and working man, the most vile characters we have ever seen. Just read the posts, their is
working man mocking those who depend on food bands or social assistance. (1 in 4 who rely on food banks are kids)

Typical right winger , I quote working man

"You only have two more Wednesdays before payday. Hope the donuts are not too stale today."

Funny stuff eh,

You and Working Man and Ronnie are typical right wingers, nasty , insulting closed minded and good Church goes, Lets face it when it comes to being a relevant force the Church has been hijacked by the right, look across the Praiers and in the US, its all about abortion and gay rights issues. Kind of like a pervert morality.

It never is about human rights, social justice, equality and war. Its about making angry discontented white guys in the suburbs feel less quality. How many church ministers stood up to call the government to task over the carpet bombing and killing of innocents in Iraq, how many Church's made a stand against brutal government attacks against the poor. Yes when it comes to being obedient most Churches know the game, Jesus would puke if he seen what the institution has become.

When it comes to not upsetting a deep pocked congregation the church knows its place, kind of like a pimp on the corner , upsetting clients reduces income.

I know Sue Clarke, the conservative party is not even close to Christian values, Jesus was a socialist but you would not know that by voter blocks, check out how the Midwest US votes and the Fraser Valley, how about our Prairies, people's eyes gloss over with hate when you mention gays etc, their is a reason they call them sheep.

Some Churches live in the real world but most don't, the congregation can step over 10 homeless people to get to church on time and get the latest gay rant. The Church has always been cutting edge when it comes to holding women , gays and minorities down while staying quiet on real issues.

Check over the most hateful posts and see what political direction they lean. Very scary, the Stevie Harper crowd.

Both Harper and baby BUSH both consider themselves good evangelical Christians and both support the mindless killing and suffering of 1000's , in fact most christians I know only consider a sin a sin it its against another rich white Christian. For the Church to not engage the public on important issues is the Church condoning them ,

That's totally off-topic, Stuart.

That kind of counter-factual revisionism is what has provided the American religious right with such an effective foil with which to galvanize their constituency. Nothwithstanding a few high-profile hucksters (media-fodder, all of them) The vast majority of traditional faith-based organizations do very helpful work for no remuneration whatsoever (and very quietly, at that).

You've made one good point about the hijacking of the West's faith tradition (i.e. Christianity) by reactionary political interests. What we probably disagree on is the fact that I see the Left as largely responsible for that. Even the incurable Jesuit-hater Voltaire had a healthy respect for the power and place of religious structures in society. But the anarchist Left of the 19th century declared all-out war against that faith tradition (not just against the structures supporting it). The Left ceded that ground, and it's fascinating to watch people like Jimmy Carter finally being heard in their efforts to reassert a moderate & conscientious voice. Even Hillary Clinton has come around (!?!).

Which brings us back to Allan Bloom - a secular, atheistic, gay, Jewish scholar with a great respect for history, culture & learning, and who abjured the more extremist forms of cultural erasure and nihilism that were expressed during the Culture Wars.

point taken nightbloom

I feel the left is responsible for ignoring the political potential of the Church unlike the right. Bush , Harper , Manning and of course Stockwell all know the benefits of the religious right, most so called lefties are so disgusted with the values of the church and have kept a healthy distance from the church which I feel is a mistake. The church has been busy and organized when it comes to focusing on certain so called moral issues over others.

The latest election in the US had a referendum question on the ballot, do you support same sex marriage. It just happened to be on the ballot in the 11 swing states, it drove voter turnout way up and got out the
religious right's vote.

But things are changing, now many Churches are performing gay marriages and are starting to address publicly some social issues of equality. I feel as a society we must address and confront the church and make to more difficult to only focus on some issues over others. We must have the stomach to get as dirty as the right. Call a spade a spade, why is Harper calling himself a Christian when actions speak otherwise. We are what we do,

you're a bigot stuey-boy. and your attempts at stereotyping posters here prove that you're not very bright either. just one small example: i'm not white, a have voted for the socialists in the past, and i haven't been into a church (except for weddings) for about 30 years. blather on idiot.

And many of the prominent fighters against this fascist movement are also Jewish, Bloom.

You have just revealed how entrenched you are in the dogma of this low-life cult.

To say that anti-neo-conservatism is anti-semitic is a neo-conservative tactic used to shut decent people up, knowing that they are uncomfortable with anti-semitism and racism. It is vile and disgusting and totally untrue as shown by the many Jewish people who recognize neo-conservatism for its fascism and sociopathy and fight every day against it.

Anyone can google Jewish papers and find a stong dislike to this movement. In fact, I posted in an earlier post one article that speaks against it.

The Kleins, Jon Stewart, Al Franklin, Bette Middler, Barbara Streisand - too many to even attempt to mention - are against these criminals. The fact many of these original creeps are Jewish is incidental.

And, another thing, many of these cult converts became so after many of their writings. And, they are liars in any event and can't be trusted. We are in a terrible time in our history. And, I am totally disgusted.

Who knew Canada could produce so many traitors, so ungrateful and so full of folly?

Who knew a gang of little boys, the kind who like to pull the wings off flys and their insipid female groupies, could garner so much influence and wreak so much suffering for others.

Grow up before the lot of you get yourself and by default the rest of us, into a problem that can not be remedied.

Oh sorry Elliot, how could I misjudge you as a ignorant , angry name calling man. You seem so open and accepting of different points of view. I must be crazy, I must be taking Working man and Ron Erwin and Jim and others the wrong way. Their so nice, just caring and sharing for the good of the forum, like when Ron advocates a Ronald Reagan style government , nuking Iraq and then getting upset over a women's right to choose. Yea I find Christians the most open minded and non bigoted people in the world. The hard on crime crowd, the anti gay crowd, the anti native, anti women's rights crowd and well you know the list. Where could we find these folks, maybe around the Fraser Valley, just maybe, lucky guess.

So do we think that right wingers have exploited the sheep, I mean church, how else can you elect a war criminal like BUSH, he needs sheep. Okay, I'll get ready for more name calling.

In North America, up until recently, the Religious Right was not a huge problem until they took up politics and invaded the mass media. Religious Right leaders such as Pat Robertson ran for President and Religious Right candidates took over school boards. Evangelistic preachers developed their own radio and television networks and broadcasted their message to millions of viewers and listeners. Recently, they have also bought full-page ads in newspapers and magazines to further their agenda. Religious Right infected schoolboards have censored books and rewritten the curriculum to include "creationism" and remove ""evolution". For some bizarre reason they do not believe in overpopulation, pollution, environmentalism, the Holocaust, extinction of species or global warming, but support a strong military and even assasination of foreign leaders. Some believe in perpetual motion (lately called cold fusion) or that opera opposes religion. Some of the more conservative Religious Right have it in for Roman Catholics, Jews, and the Talmud, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. They have gone so far as to attempt to pass legislation requring the American people to "humble themselves before God". Many also believe that the Rapture (end of the world, Armageddon) is near and want to prepare the way. Many are terrified of the concept of "One/New World Order". When questioned about their own sins, they claim "the Devil made me do it".

I have found it next to impossible to pin down the exact definition of "family values", but it appears to run something like:

promotion of the traditional "family"
conservative dress women and children to know and occupy "their place - total control over their behaviour, dress, friendships - they are total prisoners men will be men and women will be women and you can tell the difference
"spare the rod and spoil the child" and other "Biblical" justice
preoccupation with (often insincere) "manners"
adoration of "the flag"
reliance upon the Bible and the church as absolute authority (even when grossly misquoted) in all matters
dualism (believing in contradictory ideas simultaneously without conflict)
black-and-white thinking
homophobia and belief in myths about gays

And not last but not least, Gods political soldiers

Religious Right organizations include:

American Family Association
Christian Family Network
The Christian Coalition - Pat Robertson (check Walter Chronkite's comments)
Focus on the Family - Dr. James Dobson
Southern Baptist Convention
National Reform Association - reconstructionists
Concerned Women of America
Westboro Baptist Church - these are the people who picket gay funerals and created godhatesfags.com

See

http://www.cath4choice.org/lowbandwidth/indexconscience.htm

for a variety of articles on the moderate liberal Catholic view (not the conservative Catholic view). The conservative Catholics like to say that liberal Catholics are not RC at all, but I think it is just as valid to say that the conservative Catholics are not Christians.

Almost all of the Canadian Prime ministers have been Roman Catholics and all of the American Presidents have been Protestants, except JFK. Has it made any difference? This is part of the reason that the USA and Canada are so different.

If you really want to understand Stephan Harper
your gonna get a lot better understanding of him
by comparing him to Alan Greenspan.

Don't get me wrong, their are allot of good active Churches, The Salvation Army Church, Union Gospel Mission and Catholic Church all feed the poor and do good work oversees, and I am talking about feeding people not counting up the converts, its the right wing evangelical fundamentalist ones that scare me. More of a cult than a church, the glossy
eyed hateful masses talking in tongues, the kind of Churches where most Reformers or Republicans go to, very closed mined and not able to accept any truth but their own, very easy to manipulate. Outside Saudi Arabia probably the US is the Most fundamentalist county on the globe . Remember the last US election, we had BUSH and Kerry talking about God's will on the TV debate, could you imagine that in Canada. (it would be the kiss of death)

I bet allot of Reformers aka conservatives and I have heard them on radio call in shows, just pry we become more like the
US, just a little more closed minded and fundamentalist, I'm talking outside of Alberta now.

We need to send paint to the Vatican so they can cover the Sistine Chapel by that gay artist Michelangelo.

hey stuey-boy; you've posted five long soliloguays in the last hour and you still haven't really said anything. fools like you are the reason the left isn't taken seriously anymore. even the federal liberals are learning to shun you guys, and carole james is doing her best to minimize your influence. maybe you should move to france.

LOL, watch what happends when this election heats up , the kooks will come out to roast like last time aka Randy White, Martin just has to start talking about gay issues and womens rights, you will also see Harper put on the hot seat regarding the military, the best way to defeat any right winger is just hold up a mirror so the public can have a good look at them. LOL,

What in your opinion is wrong with what I posted Elliott, are you saying these groups are not arms of the right wing.

Good one move France, ha ha, your letting your American stripes show, how about some Freedom Fries, Freedom toast, you the perfect example of what I was showing, thanks for your participation.

LOL. ,move to France, being a racist because the French don't like behaving like War criminals, sorry good Christians, the majority of the world's countries said no to BUSH and Iraq, but who cares right Elliott, not when God's on your side.
How about those Freedom Fries

Hey Stuart, even the senator who coined 'freedom fries' has recanted and whether it's because of 06 or a true change of heart has come out against the war, says he was horribly mistaken and now writes a personal letter to each and every US military family who loses a child in Iraq.

I know I was just poking fun at Elliott's response, asking me to move to France because he cannot accept the truth.

Harper wants to lower taxes and increase military spending.

Sounds like big time deficit spending. Just like his boss George W. Bush.

Oh, for cryin' out loud...

redrivergirl - I can't make sense of your response to my post.

I wasn't saying that *I* believed that Jews were genuinely part of this bizarre conspiracy theory....I was saying that the Straussian conspiracy theory has fingered a smattering of Jewish intellectuals in particular (in addition to several other respected intellectuals), and that this (in my opinion) is the latest incarnation of a much older conspiracy theory, and is also complimentary to the tangible rise in anti-Semitism on the political Left both in North America and Europe. The polarized Left has become fairly bald in its rhetoric in this regard. 'Le Monde Diplomatique' is a great example of this.

I'm not 'entrenched' in any 'cult'. That's silly. You're allowing yourself to get caught up in the paranoia of the article (see what you've done, Gutstein?). If anything, I'm a committed admirer of Allan Bloom's criticism of culture in general and the U.S. university system in particular. I don't like seeing him made into a staw man for something he never represented.

And I'm not a neo-conservative, but it's silly & total hyperbole to call neo-cons 'fascist'. Let's maintain some semblance of clarity and commonly-accepted meaning in our language usage.

Good grief.

Love the deletions. Lenin was all in favour of cenosorship. Looks good on you.

You're not fooling anyone, Nightbloom.
I knew exactly what you meant. It is an old argument put forth by Frum etal. It is specious and really not very nice.

If you're not entrenched in the cult of Neo-Conservatism, you render a good imitation.

In this case, I would use the word 'respected', even 'intellectual' advisedly. Just because someone can spout forth in the language of academia, does not an intellectual make. And, respected by whom? Only by their followers.

In other words, Nightbloom, if these are the elites, goodness gracious indeed.

redrivergirl - Then I would have to say you need to re-examine your criteria for determining what a neo-conservative is. You're painting with an extremely broad brush. It's important to make relevant distinctions even among those you disagree with. I make no assumptions about your political outlook based on a few blog postings.

The relative merit of the intellectuals isn't the issue - It's the fact that the article never demonstrated a tangible link between them, the elements of Straussian thought that were mentioned ('noble lie' etc.), and the alleged neo-con political cabal putatively about to enact 'regime change' in Canada.

Like the Da Vinci Code and other conspiracy theories, the Staussian plot is amusing, relatively harmless HYPE....except when people take it seriously.

Anyway, I sense I'm hardly going to convince you. But just so you no longer think I'm trying to 'fool' anyone, I strongly recommend you read some of Bloom's material yourself and then make an informed judgment of the issue.

Okay, just to lighten things up - If you want to see a popular application of Allan Bloom's style of cultural critique, check out Camille Paglia's devastating review of Madonna's CD in Salon.com - The prose is scintillating. Her take on the disco phenomenon is authentic (warning: you have to set thru a 20 sec. Infinity add to access it, but it's worth the read).

[Context: As I mentioned, Bloom was to supervise Paglia's PhD thesis at Yale University, but a teaching fellowship in the UK prevented it. Paglia - who is sometimes credited with single-handedly blasting the odious p.c. era into history - based her critique of the American Ivy League universities largely on Bloom's own writings on the subject].

You see, here there is a bona fide & documented connection between the two scholars....And Straussian nor neo-con she ain't.

Bloom, I am aware that I am painting with a wide brush. However, I know that this cult, this 'scourge of civil society', is a loosely bound bunch of self-congratulatory developmentally paralized adolescents who share the same world view and the same deadly hubris. And, then we have the truly evil inner core.

Please, after all is said and done, Palagia is just another a libertarian. The nuances are of their own delusion.

Bloom you keep giving yourself away.

...albeit a libertarian with a knack for self-promotion in the same vein and for the same underlying reasons, as the less, sophisticated and less intelligent, Ann Coulter.

You keep saying I'm giving myself away, and that I'm not fooling anyone as though you've put me in the witness stand of some sort of mind-reading ideological McCarthy-esque tribunal. I've laid my opinions out for you in plain sight.

The paranoia of the article under discussion is affecting the discussion itself. That's the problem with conspiracy theories...you've made anyone with a differing interpretation into a player in the original conspiracy fantasy (which is the purpose of these kinds of articles - i.e. to help galvanize a consituency by appealing to latent pre-rational impulses such as paranoia - I'm afraid The Tyee is preaching to the choir on this one).

You don't know me, so let's stay on topic please.

As for Paglia, do you see a Straussian neo-con conspiracy in her writings? Did you even read the short review before pronouncing judgment? No?!? - but she's a disciple of that "paralyzed adolescent" Allan Bloom, who is infected with the same "deadly hubris" that leads to their "truly evil inner core".

Have you read anything written by Leo Strauss, Camille Paglia or Allan Bloom? How can you be so knowledgeable of their respective worldviews (and of mine, more surprisingly)? What is this astonishing clairvoyance of yours derived from - a Ouija Board?

You're posting ideology, not informed opinion. You're hearby sentenced to several years hard time at the nearest university library.

Nice try, Bloom.

I am posting in response to your comments. You attempt to disparage the article, (and me) yet obviously my comments are more generic.

You're right, I didn't read the article. I read Palagia's first book years ago. I am posting my opinions based on what I've read and what I've observed. I can recognize a con and a bankrupt belief system when I see it.

Anyone with an undergrad degree in philosophy can, at least initially, 'sound' like an intellectual. This does not make their opinons informed, nor even completely rational. Very few people in the world in are true intellectuals. And, that includes the 'gods' of Strauss etal. (certainly, I would not ever consider myself one, in spite of the fact that I am an unusual and creative thinker and not to mention tend to give due to 'Eastern' ways of 'knowing')

Memorizing and regurgitating one's text book does not make one intelligent, nor an intellectual. Because I view this philosophy so very wanting in the 'real world', I tend to think those who adopt it are rather thick. (perhaps only as a Platonian mind game, I would have more respect for it, although maybe not)

You must agree that most of our public Neo-Cons are so absolutely ridiculous. Mean, spoiled, little children.

Anyway, I'm pushing against a deadline and may not be able to return for a few days. I concede you are able to espouse your view. If I've hurt your feelings, I am sorry. You're right. I don't know you. Perhaps, I have misjudged your opinons. Perhaps, you are a young person. I have a great deal more sympathy for those who embrace it while young and then let it go as they mature. And, my opionions about the character and abilities of a young person would be mitigated by the understanding that when young one often has yet to obtain wisdom.

I admit I have a lot of derision for this nasty tide. However, Bloom, I am posting informed opinon. It isn't an Ouiji Board, nor 'astonishing clairvoyance' that allows your world view to be so evident. It is in your choice of language, just as it is the actions (and words) of self-proclaimed Neo-Conservatives and also Libertarians that allows them to be evaluated.

This was a complete aside, just ignore.

You know, Bloom, collectively, nihilism is only true if we agree it is so. In that way it is like a cancer taking over healthy cells.
I think it's better be part of the solution. It is our obligation.

I can't make much sense of your last three posts. I sense I've been tried & convicted in absentia. No worries tho. But just the be clear:

I've criticized the article, not "disparaged" it. I only mentioned Paglia to demonstrate that an academic association with Allan Bloom does not a neo-con Straussian conspiracy make...which is what Gutstein's argument boils down to (guilt by association). There are other famous scholars with a similar association to Bloom whose track-records also undercut Gutstein's theory (not his theory, actually). Bloom is being demonized posthumously.

I understand The Tyee's motivations for reviving this particular conspiracy theory (i.e. to galvanize its readership as we enter a rapid-fire election campaign in which, from its perspective, the #1 'enemy' is a neo-conservative party).

I've only been trying to rescue Allan Bloom from vandalism.

He's been the subject of some nasty revisionism since his death of AIDS-related complications in 1992. He made a massive contibution to society & culture during his lifetime, and I'd like to see his ideas & writing continue to make an impact into the future. I'd love to see queer kids put down their bumpers of 'k' and crystal meth and pick up Bloom's Love & Friendship for a change. Or his brilliant resurrection of heterosexual romantic love in his posthumously-published Shakespeare on Love & Friendship (how ironic that a gay man should should be the one to lead the cultural rescue of hetero romantic love from its postmodern death-trance).

What's revealing about all this conspiracy-mongering is how easily one is styled a neo-con just by showing up in his defence. I couldn't care less about the fate of neo-cons - Frum is uncouth & Coulter is laughable. Yet there I was "giving myself away" and trying to "fool" everyone.

Like I said: no worries. But really just cool it with the conspiracies, already.

I'll vote for slimeball who promises to abolish that damned GST, that bloodsucking piece of morbid taxation and the gruesome annual ritual that accompanies it, a burden that unfairly targets any poor sod independant tradesman with a gross over $30k, a pretty low ceiling when trying to run a socially responsible small business. Meanwhile, those who make "only" $29k can offer a big discount.. I think Bush the Slasher would support me on that one, eh?

Here, 'The Tyee', instead of exhuming gay intellectuals and vandalising their legacy for short-sighted political purposes, make yourself useful:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051203/ts_nm/life_ecstasy_dc

If Yahoo can do it, for pete's sake, so can you.

Oh, never mind all the damn politics - just look at these guys! Not in a hundred years would I vote for a guy of Harper's age with nary a wrinkle. Something's fishy, either he spends too much time and effort on facials, or he has evil connections...
Nor do I buy Jack Layton's vague reminiscence of Father Christmas. I know you want more of my money, Jack! You ain't fooling me.
No, Give me a craggy, weatherbeaten, worried face like Paul's every time. I know you are thinking about matters of state like I pay you to do, nothing else could produce that harried look!

LOL - Good one. Dorian Grey, Father Christmas, or Treebeard. What a choice...you just *know* Harper has a peculiar-looking self-portrait sitting in his attic.

Something's gone wrong with Harper. He was such a crackerjack as a rookie reform MP. I don't think his heart is in it anymore, and hasn't been in a while - although whether that's him or the party he's stuck with isn't my call.

Elected office is bad for the health. Check out the before-&-after pix of Clinton, Blair, Martin....Has anyone actually left office looking better than when they entered--? Why *do* people run, anyway? I still don't get the appeal....

It is all about that horrible catch-22 public life presents us with: there are those who want power, for which reason, according to Confucius, they should never have it given to them, and there are those who don't give a jot, whom we all would stampede to elect, if they were running, but unfortunately, they're not. So, we try to pick the lesser of the available evils, well knowing, that the best and most decent among us will never be on that list.

Politics seems to attract either "Steady Eddies" who are looking for a hiatus from their productive careers in order to accomplish a specific programme....Or it attracts compulsive attention-seekers in search of a platform upon which to work out their own deep-seated dramas. More of the latter than the former, it seems. What a dismal lineup Vancouver Centre now has to choose from.

You know, 'The Tyee', a far more tenable "conspiracy" theory (though with less useful application to the current round of elections) is the ongoing influence of the Halford Mackinder and Karl Haushofer school of Geopolitics on American policymakers. It has had a profound affect on America's foreign policy elite throughout the 20th century and into the present, and whose tenets are more readily evident on the conservative side of the political spectrum (though not exclusively).

This particular Geopolitik deeply influenced America's approach to every major question of the day - from the equivocation over Germany's bid to overthrow the European balance of power, the timing and manner of America's entry into WWII, the terms of the post-war settlement, the hardline reinterpretation of Kennan's proposed Containment Policy towards the Soviet Union (which fueled America's Cold War misadventures), the rearmament and deliberately delayed reunification of Germany, America's Israel policy, as well as the latest round of American adventures in the Middle East.

When you examine it in this light, a clear intellectual lineage emerges linking the demigods of U.S. foreign policy: Root-Kellogg-Hull-Stimson-Acheson-Dulles-Rusk-Kissinger-Rice.

Of course, this is necessarily painting with a broad & unnuanced brush, but there's a clear and consistent thread of themes going all the way back to Mackinder's influential 1904 article in National Geographic titled "The Geographical Pivot of History" and his 1905 follow-up "Man-power as a Measure of National and Imperial Strength."

In any case, this particular school of Geopolitical thought presents far richer fodder for a conspiracy theory - all the more so because this one is actually true. I did quite a bit of work on Hausofer's influence on strategic planning in Europe in grad school.

The old faithful greenie, elliot, darcy and of course good old ronny all prove Mr Gutstein's point by their letters of denial. They are the people Straus detested. Zeig Heil! "The people are mud".

the Tyee must have really struck a nerve somewhere if the number and immediate response of various self important, ultra right wing resposes is any indication. One could almost believe that all things in this world are planned and controlled by some supernatural power with a bad sense of humour.

LOL - it's not the "ultra right wing" that's taking the Straussian debate too seriously on this thread (was there an ultra right winger on this thread? Where??) For my part, I said all along that Gutstein's article was only meant to be taken in a light vein.

Then some posters started cranking out a Heart of Darkness routine over this thing. Just scan some of the posts. Allan Bloom is described as an "arrested adolescent" with an "evil inner core". That's when some remedial corrective intervention was called for.

Oops - there I go giving myself away again. Did I fool you with all my nice tries at Staussian Deception (which I learned from reading Allan Bloom's machiavellian reflections on hippy culture, high art, university education and sex). I guess I'm one of the putative ultra right wingers then.

The Tyee has tapped into a provocative subject that is almost irresistable to kick around back & forth. I learned a thing or two - why don't you cut the sarcasm & give it a shot?

I love these posts! Working Man can't spell, Ron Erwin can't punctuate, and the other neocons can't compose a coherent sentence... someone once said that not all stupid people are conservatives, but all conservatives are stupid people. The proof of that remark is in these postings.

What amazes me is that nobody seems able to look close to home: We already HAVE the neocons in power in B.C. Look at Gordo! Look at his ministers! Falsehoods uttered with aforethought if not malice, some of them howlers that a six year old can see through.

Example: The Minister of Mines announced that the approval of a coal mine in an ecologically sensitive portion of North Eastern B.C. was necessary because Eskay Creek was closing down in two years and the first nations population working there needed alternative employement.

Analysis: I wasn't surprised that the newsperson interviewing him for television didn't catch that; the reporters seem to be chosen for their ability to shmooze and look presentable before the camera rather than for their nose for a story, and the editors know on which side their bread is buttered. Additionally, the "first nations" card is always a good one to shut up liberals, at least until the lie is forgotten.

It wouldn't even surprise me if the intellectual lights of this forum such as Jim or Working Man didn't. However, to believe that the Minister of Mines didn't know that Eskay Creek is a hard rock underground gold silver mine that uses concrete backfill, and/ or that hard rock miners and open pit coal miners don't fill the same job slots, and / or that there is a screaming shortage of hard rock miners in Canada and hence no problem finding alternative work, and / or that Pinnacle will be coming onstream within a similar time frame in the same area is really stretching one's credulity.

Conclusion: The Minister of Mines is an expletive deleted fabulist.

Observation: This is not a one off affair in the B.C. cabinet. Every second news conference seems to involve a similar blatant falsehood.

Fortunately, Canadians are just a bit more intelligent on average than Americans and distrusted Bush even without a three year war. Similarily, they see through enough of SHarper's lies to suspect his (for lack of a better phrase) hidden agenda. However, when pitted against the fear of an NDP majority government in B.C., enough of them lose their ability to think to make it very much a 'some time thing'.

Does that make it all part of a conspiracy? I don't think so; these folks have an agenda, and the first step is to get elected at all costs, and the second is to open the public purse to their friends who contributed to their campaign. We have Socialism for the Rich, and Free Enterprise for the poor. They'd be running for the far left or right with equal enthusiasm if that was what gave them access to the trough.

Dorothy: Paulje's face is not "craggy and weatherbeaten" and certainly isn't worried. Multi millionaires don't worry. It is rather softened with good living and padded with expense account luncheons and cigar smoke (possibly not his own). My grandfather homesteaded near Edmonton. Now that was a weatherbeaten face.

R. Smiley

The correct phrasing of the above is:

Not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives!

They seem much more able to see through the neo-con scam in Latin America these days - maybe because they've (the neo-cons) been so extreme there in their exploitation of people and their environment, beginning with the Conquistadors.

"Strauss, who died in 1973, believed in the inherent inequality of humanity. Most people, he famously taught, are too stupid to make informed decisions about their political affairs. Elite philosophers must decide on affairs of state for us."

That is called Utilitarianism, and many people believe in it. "The greatest good for the greatest number" might well be the motto of utilitarianism, because that movement doesn't give a damn about individual rights.......

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

Nightbloom, I've quoted my own writing for your convenience. Where does it say Bloom had an evil core? I am talking about the evil core of the fascists. When I identify those as developmentally stuck in adolescence, I am talking about those attracted to the cult of neo-conservatism.

Please. Read somewhat more carefully. I know it's easy to misread postings. I know sometimes I've read a posting and felt quite offended only to go back the next day and find the actual posting ws in fact less so. Easy does it.

Oops!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

To be clear the evil core within the fascist group. A select number. Those who are actually calling the shots.

And, we must never forget, philosophy aside, it is about the money. They are nothing but crooks really. The 'great philosophy debate', the 'culture wars' etc are all meant to obfuscate while they steal our money and get away with murder through deregulation and military might. That's all.

"Most people, he famously taught, are too stupid to make informed decisions about their political affairs. Elite philosophers must decide on affairs of state for us."

If only it WAS an elite that hopped up on that podium, but alas,...

To rkewen: It goes like this: if you're not a socialist, when you're twenty, you're showing you have no heart; if you're still a socialist when you're 40, you're demonstrating you have no brains.

Dorothy:
That one is a bit overdone. Not everyone goes through the same idealist-to-materialist cycle the same direction. Try this one instead. It was true in Yorkshire, where I grew up in the 1960's. It was very simple; funny but true.

"If you have a carpet, you vote conservative".

The problem with today's political spectrum is that the prism, which splits the light into the political rainbow, is dirty. There is no left, and there is no right. The Liberals are really conservatives, and the Conservatives are more liberal than anything else. They are both political cross-dressers.

Between the Free Trade agreement and G.S.T. both political parties played their "indignant opposition" card, then flip-flopped when they got into office.

Re. the NDP, Bob Rae was the M.P. who brought down the Joe Clark minority government, sentencing Canada to more of John Turner, Pierre Trudeau and Jean Chretien, culminating in Paul Martin. John Crosbie's budget - the one which was overturned - was the last honest attempt at balancing the economy. If that bill had gone through, Canada would have been saved trillions in cumulative deficit budgets.

So I trust neither the Liberals, nor the Conservatives, nor the NDP. Who is left? No one. Canada's political landscape is totally bankrupt. There hasn't been one original idea in the last 30 years.

Every party is trying to buy votes, with blue-sky programs and already-broken, too-often recycled promises. They are playing the public opinion polls as if they were conducting an orchestra. Who still buys it?

I have lived here for 30 years, and much as I love this country, Canada is just too big to govern as a single country. The PQ will ultimately win their referendum and we will split into the five regions which we really are: BC, the Prairies, Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes.

The time is upon us, now, to plan what those five regions will look like, and what their relationships to each other, and to the USA will be.

Truth told, aren't we all sickened at the thought of another Quebec separation referendum? What more can be said on the subject that hasn't been said a thousand times over?

Aren't we all sick of the Western Alienation debate?

Aren't we all sick of the Equalisation Payment argument?

Isn't it time we stopped treating the toothache ands pulled the tooth?

The argument for me, is not whether Steven Harper wears the same pyjamas as George Bush; we know he does, and so what? The question should be "How much more Liberal corruption can we endure, and continue to hold on to the few illusions we still believe in?"

Canada needs a change of bed lininen at 22 Sussex Drive. It doesn't matter how, who, or why; we just need to do it.

First off, I am no neo-conservative. To be honest, I hold them in general disdain so the fact that what I'm about to say is positive at first is even shocking to my own ears. But, here goes, nonetheless! At the end of my submission I will pose a list of questions which is where we need to go in light of some of these discussions.

Well, in general, I am pretty sympathetic to the bulk of Nightbloom's submissions. When it comes to "School's of thought," we ought to be very careful indeed. It becomes easy to speak of a group sharing a set of generalized doctrines and platitudes that many inside the school would be very surprised to find they hold. Was Bloom a neo-conservative? In my mind yes, but not necessarily in the highly stylized version we see today.

Wittgenstein is right. We need to think of neo-conservatism as a family. No two members look alike. Some share red hair, others pointy noses (sorry couldn't resist, if you've read the commentaries thus far you will understand the very poor humour of this), others yet square chins. All look different, yet paradoxically we can all tell they are brothers and sisters.

Here, is where nightbloom is offering us something of value. He is correcting our rather homogenous view of neo-conservatism. Unfortunately, many passionate neo-cons have failed to be as aware of these dividing lines as others. If they did, they may find that it is a neo-conservatism able to openly support a Bloom in their fold that would be more appealing to Canadians than this Harperian view that holds at the moment. A neo-conservatism that values education (although I suspect Bloom would argue the nature of that education needs to be debated), culture, and questions relativism? One that believes that some are better placed to know and act than others (yes, elitist). And in that case, the noble lie may be necessary although hopefully regrettable. Whether all of classical philosophy is a doctrine of secret code or not to be hidden from the masses, well I'll leave that up to you to decide.

So, this is the way I think it shakes down and where our debate could be better guided.

Question 1: What is neo-conservatism and what are its family resemblances in Canada?

Question 2: Do politicians need the noble lie? Or can the Kantian/Habermasian logic of the best rational argument seize the day? This notion of the noble lie is hardly new. Most diplomats have believed it for centuries. In fact, E.H. Carr (no neo-con) felt that he had nothing less than a 'Duty to Lie.'

Question 3: If politicians need the noble lie, under what conditions should it be used?

Question 4: Is there some sort of Da Vinci Code to Classical Philosophy that us mere mortals have no inking about? If so, does it lead to a pot of gold? Finally, any hints on how to get it?

Question 5: Who is nightbloom? Is he also part of some secret cabal to pervert the Tyee?

Don't you mean chopping the head off to remove the tooth ache?

Canada is not too disparate to be one country. She is vulnerable to divisive tactics for political gain, however, and this is partly why I have so much distain for todays politicians. Also, I do not buy that it is just inevitable and thus we must accept this new politik. As a seventh generation Canadian, I have more faith in us.

I will vote NDP. They've never been in power. They have a history of making life better for Canadians and they've never had a chance to govern federally. If they fail at least it will be trying to make our world a better place for us all, rather than the course for failure we are on now, which is to make things worse.

EWG, the real world is not a philosophy class. Nor, should it be. I don't know a lot about the Bloom style neo-conservative. But, I know enough about neo-conservatism to know that it would follow that the education he believes in is probably only to be available to a few. I happen to believe in a classical education as well. Many do. This does not reflect in any way on the value of neo-conservatism.

I have a very poor opinion of anyone who falls for neo-conservatism. In my view they are collectively the most immature bunch of intellectual loafers I've ever seen! In spite of their constant warbling. In fact, the debate ought to be the punishment of politicians who are elected and go on to abuse the public trust. The criminal prosecution of those receiving kick backs and involved in dirty deals and pay offs. It's beginning in the US, thank goodness. With that debate we need to take immediate action on the very real planetary crisis we are in.

What if the core group of neo-conservatists aren't only telling lies to the public? But, also to their followers? After all if the goals of neo-conservatism come to pass most of its followers will end up losing with the rest of us. If a terminator seed gets loose in the environment because Monsanto buys off our government, don't you think you'd suffer from the resulting famine? I doubt there are more than a handful of Canadians wealthy enough to survive that prospect. And, you won't get cancer from an unregulated industry spewing toxins in the air? All the work now generated from the dismantling of our social democratic economy will be gone. Where will you work? You don't think once this new society is done CEOs will continue to receive large pay packets? Why would they when it is no longer necessary to buy them off? Isn't that comedic? The noble lie (we know it's really the ignoble lie) that tells people dumb enough to follow them, 'you are the elite'. rofl

I don't have time to read this whole long debate, but those involved may find it interesting to read this article from Walrus Magazine about a year ago. It's about the American, Thomas Flanagan, Harper's campaign manager, "intellectual soul mate", and leading neo-con light in the "Calgary School". He's mentioned in the article above, but this one goes into great depth about his aims, methods and ambitions. I'm surprised the Libs and NDP haven't made this guy an election issue.

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/article.pl?sid=05/05/09/2119243

Flanagan wrote literally all of my undergrad poli sci textbooks dealing with Canadian politics & parties (I'm sure I'm not the only one). Only much later did I become acquainted with his revisionist leanings. He misreads events, issues and public sensitivities. A number of his predictions on significant issues have been way off the mark. I'm skeptical of the overall balance of thought that scholars who remain in one place, tied to one school, can bring to current issues. Moreover, most established academic conservatives (true conservatives) keep the Fraser Institute at arms length, if they even have anything to do with it at all. Flanagan's an exile of sorts.

I wouldn't be too worried. In fact, you may wish Flanagan to remain exactly where he is in the Harper camp.

redrivergirl, you most certainly are correct to say the world is not a philosophy class. That being said, it is amazing how people have been fighting over ideas for some time now. Trying to determine what those ideas are, why they are misguided, and being able to explain why that is the case is hardly trivial.

I hear you about classical education and Bloom. On the other hand, unless you want to face a monolithic neo-conservatism of the absolute worst kind then don't open up the debate about alternatives within their own camp. Personally, I would rather deal with a Bloom than a Harper. Of course, it would be a wonderful world if we didn't have to deal with either of them. But truth is, we do. I think forcing ourselves and neo-cons to reevaluate what they are is essential. Since these people seem to be moved by Strauss and some sort of bizarre philosophical lineage, then use that lineage against them or at least to open up internal debates.

You are right we do need to deal with the environment and so on, but you will have a hard time convincing me that your assessment of the problem and how to solve it has no set of coherent ideas shaping how you believe we ought to respond. Unless, gulp, you believe in some sort of common sense that we all seem to just get somehow! I'm a skeptic on that end.

A neocon will tell you that if Monsanto practices are not amenable to the market then they will be forced to adjust. Now, I happen to think that is nonsense, but it is an underlying belief that most of those people in that circle believe. Now, you have to come up with what will appear as a rational reason for why that might not occur and why this requires outside action (maybe government intervention, maybe direct action/protest, etc.). Unless, of course, you are just going to coerce them into changing. So, life is not a philosophy class, but there are sets of ideas that are quasi-coherent and organized prevalent in most groups. Figuring those out are highly worthwhile.

As for the ignoble lie, you apparently must be extremely charismatic to be able to convince so many people to do what they don't want! I'm not a proponent of lying to the public, but I definitely can see why there are occassions where it may be expedient. Hell, maybe you even have an obligation to lie as E.H. Carr put it. Say in an emergency. And what about half-lies since they are the most common? Or even white lies? I wish we lived in a world where they may not be necessary, but I doubt that is the case. That is hard for me to say as well because I'm usually one of the ones that are completely honest at great cost may I add.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, EWG.

Yes, but they won't really mean it. They are not interested in a truly 'free market' as I'm sure you know.

Yes, little white lies. But, we're not talking about those. We're talking about lies that kill people. Lies that treat humanity with comtempt. Lies that only a sociopath could embrace.

Thanks again for sharing your perspective.

Nightbloom, while not surprised, I am sorry to hear most of your text books were by one person, with one world view.

Smart post, EWG.

Historically, the Right has always been better at driving a wedge into the Left, rather than vice versa. I'm not sure of the reasons for this dynamic, but conservatives rise and fall according to their skill at exploiting it. Bismarck (the ultra-conservative reactionary and unsung grandfather of the modern welfare state) was the definitive master of this tactic (though his efforts to split the Left along its Lasallean fault line had unexpected consequences).

I think you hit it on the head regarding the nature of the 'noble lie' - Strauss was articulating a universal element in democratic politics. The entire political spectrum makes use of it.

I still think Bloom is getting short shrift. I don't want to overdo the issue, but (for example) his concept of 'Premature Ecstasy' to explain the role of drugs in modern society remains the most cogent reflection on the phenomenon I've ever read. His contribution can't be reduced to a two-dimensional ideological fad.

(correction: I should have said 'edited' rather than 'wrote' with regard to the Flanagan texts I referred to in my last post)

(Quote) 'Nightbloom, while not surprised, I am sorry to hear most of your text books were by one person, with one world view.'

redrivergirl - What I was trying to get at was that Thomas Flanagan used to be everywhere on the Canadian political science curriculum. That's not the case anymore. I think his career underwent a progression from mainstream to (somewhat) fringe....although that change could be more apparent than real - It's not for me to say.

I assumed you meant mostly edited. (which shapes the content of those texts obviously)

Nightbloom, if you want to quote, highlight the section in your screen and then click on the box at the left of your screen with the script on it.

Okay, I'm hugely generalizing here.
IMO the reason people who tend to be progressive are less adept at driving a wedge into the right is because they aren't trying. Generally speaking (and I really do mean generally) progressives tend to be reflective. They tend to attempt to figure out the reasons why people are doing what they are doing, what made them that way and how they are feeling. They generally have empathy for the feelings and circumstances of others. If you look at the patterns of discourse, you'll notice that progressives talk more about motivation, than blame. Although, the left is finding their anger. Their ethics have hitherto limited them from a really dirty fight. (not true for all) And, some people on the radical left seem to be having a reactive response to inner issues of authority rather than much of anything else, although I really don't think there are too many people who really are on the radical left. I know some very moderate and conservative people are labelled left in these days.

The left has the right's psyche figured out. The right thinks they have the left figured out, but in reality they have just figured out some superficial responses. The right attributes incorrect and pejorative motivations to them and are limited in really understanding the 'left'. While the right, at least thus far, has figured out how to hamstring the left for a variety of reasons. Chief among those reasons is that they had the element of surprise, which is rapidly evaporating. But, there are other reasons too.
Of course, left/right are just convenient terms for sake of discussion.

I think you're on to something.

The Left tends to expect a lot from its ideology. Whenever I speak to adherents I often find a complete worldview encapsulated in their ideological beliefs - one which encompasses not just policy & politics but also their lifestyle, domestic arrangements, diet and faith-system. They've internalized their politics, sometimes to an astonishing & eccentric degree (not all, of course).

A while back I mentioned how the Left in the 19th century thought it could replace the Western faith tradition altogether with its ideology. The Left tends to believe (sometimes without realizing it) that its ideology contains a complete blueprint to human progress that addresses everything from property rights to cosmology.

Of course, people situate themselves somewhere along this spectrum (moderate to radical). But it seems that generally the Left is far more rigid and susceptible to division precisely because of its doctrinaire tendencies.

Conservatives tend to accept that everything has a place & time - they never sought to completely replace the faith tradition with ideology in the manner the Left has repeated attempted to do since the French Revolution, or to self-consciously impose ideology into the other spheres of human endeavour (the arts, domestic & sexual relations, language, child-rearing, etc.).

This kind of approach makes the Right inherently more pragmatic & flexible.....except when they hit hard-core touchstones like the abortion issue (which the Left has had difficulty exploiting because of its own ideological rigidity on the question....which makes Hillary Clinton's recent metamorphasis all the more interesting - is she the future of liberal-Leftist pragmatism?)

Unfortunately, we live in an era when the moderates on both sides are almost never heard, and when they are they are quickly marginalized. As I mentioned a while ago, in the U.S. Jimmy Carter is engaged in a valiant (but probably ultimately unsuccessful) attempt to open up the political floor at the centre once again. Sadly, moderates just aren't useful anymore.

Just an addendum on the potential of the atheistic intellectual Left to create a new middle ground in the ongoing tension between faith & politics in North America. There's an untapped constituency there.

Umberto Eco points the way, interestingly enough:

http://www.arts.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=WIFVKH3A4A0YHQFIQMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/opinion/2005/11/27/do2701.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/11/27/ixportal.html

Scarey real truth doesn't make headlines too often, it seems so far out,it couldn't be true.
However, for a real thrill, go to the Canadian Council of Executives website. There you'll find the agenda for Canadas' future - and its on fasttrac.
Most of our banks, Canadian Tire, Telus, Yellow Pages and 150 Canadians business' are very busy integrating with the U.S./ Global economy today.
Biometric I.D., North American Passports, absolute sharing of all energy "Only two in ten Americans and fewer than three in ten Canadians even realize that Canada is the number one supplier of energy to the United States, providing 33 percent of its total energy imports, 94 percent of its natural gas imports, 100 percent of its electricity imports and more oil than Saudi Arabia"( quote CCoE)
Defense plans? Yes or No - The BMD investment is and has been happening for years! The news is Canadians are going to be investing millions more $ into the military, and its not for peacekeeping. It is for world domination. War and domination is good for business.
Our CPP retirement funds and our taxes are already responsible for killing Iraquis. Military components and technology are big business in Canada. The U.S. wouldn't be able to run its wars with out Good Old Dependable Canadas' participation.
If you read in McLeans, Globe and Mail,or any of the major newspapers that we are peacemakers, or that Canadians said "No" to BMD and Bush, you've been manipulated.
The news you read is old, mostly its role is to depressurize reality, so you won't get too upset, and will have something to distract you.
Media Corporations know most people are too busy to think for themselves...research takes time, and getting the news out is very difficult. Thanks Tyee!
Truth can be so gritty and scarey.
Heap Neo-con Staussian politics on top of the CCoE "Deep Integration" action plan, and you got the Conservative Government. Add Carlyle International group on top of CCoE, and you got the Liberals.
In any case,voting for these 2 parties is committing to the North American military based business/ philosopy madness.
NDP is still unblemished by corporate power. By forming another minority government to be a thorn in Big Brothers side, NDP will slow down the Deep Integration agenda.Alternative news journalists will have a little more time to wake up and educate the docile majority.
You think I'm exaggerating? I dare you, read the Canadian Council of Executives. Quote" . Its member chief executives head companies that administer more than C$2.3 trillion in assets, have annual revenues of close to C$600 billion and account for a significant majority of Canada's private sector investment, exports, training and research and development.The Council has played an influential role in shaping the direction of fiscal, taxation, trade, energy, environmental, competitiveness and corporate governance policies in Canada".
Read The Carlyle Group website. Check out Coat, and Polariswebsites.

Thankyou for your article Don,

In peace, Susan

This is a great article and an excellent site:too bad its lousy with wingnuts.To our rightwing "friends"I would submit,isn't it great to be able to troll this page,barking insulting nonsense with impunity?Too bad the same can't be said of most RIGHTWING forums wherein any and all "liberal" comment is "verboten".So Eliot,Fred/Ethel and Working(class hero)Man,enoy the freedom offered you here,and while you are at it-please take some time to meditate upon the idea of free speech.What a concept...