This is not about snap judgements but about platonic friendships. The reason women want gay men as friends is so they don't have to deal with seduction attempts. It's not that gay men have certain stereotypical strengths, but because women do not have to endure the bull**** of straight dudes.

Proved my point nicely, thanks. :-)

I have to agree with Foley on this one.

I live in Asia and have many women friends, and NO they are not friends with benefits.

I find that more often Asian women tend to not judge men as quickly as North American women.
They are willing to accept you as a friend and they don't think you are being nice just to get into their pants.

There are nice straight men too, but as Foley points out you create the reality you envision.
So if you think straight men only offer you bullcrap then that is what you will get and/or see.

I'm with Foley on this one.

For an article that is supposedly sensitive about not promoting stereotypes, this assumption stuck out at me. Maybe there is something wrong with the socialization of straight women who can't accept straight men? Yes, some men are pigs, but I think when there is a problem with a relationship, it usually cuts both ways.

I think many men are having a tough time with identity these days: how to be a masculine man without being a chump? Clearly there is a problem with the stereotyped traditional male gender role, but how do we change this without throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

I think we see this problem in the labour force. Many women are leaving traditional "female" professions and entering traditional "male" professions. But many men are less willing to enter traditional "female" professions. How can men expand their view without feeling like their are losing their masculinity?

The women I met seem only attracted to gay men that display the classical gay sterotype. Within the community there is a diverse cross section that mirrors the Hetro-sexual society, complete with all the problems.

I have to agree with both Moderate man and Foley. Rupp's article betrays the kind of sexist hypocrisy that so often characterizes old-style feminist discourse. The issue here is not only about how men are socialized, but how women such as Rupp have been socialized to accept their own sexist double standards as being somehow acceptable. Imagine a man writing about women "dragging their knuckles across the floor" or making the sexist generalization that "there's something wrong with the way in which men (women) have been socialized." Oh please. From these kinds of remarks, it seems clear that some women, such as Rupp, have been socialized to see themselves as somehow superior to men.
Take, for example, Rupp's assumption that men and women can be friends "only if straight men can perceive women as something more than lockboxes full of goodies." Like many women, Rupp seems to have bought into the stereotype of women as being passive and men as being aggressive players on the sexual playing field. But almost any man who has had experience with women will attest to the fact that women have their own sexual agendas.They play a different game, but it is a game with the same end in mind. Navigating that playing field can be difficult for both genders, but the naive and sexist assumption that it is only men who enter the field with a desire for sexual contact is not only a sexist stereotype, but just plain silly. If men have to learn not to see women as "lockboxes full of goodies," women need to see men as fully developed human beings, not as walking penises with wallets who will fulfill their sexual and material desires. Or is that just "classic straight guy thinking," as Rupp so patronizingly puts it?
I'm sorry, Shannon, if all of this seems unduly harsh. But until we start taking notions of gender equality seriously,and applying them to men and women equally, we will never make any real progress in creating a world free of the limiting notions of gender that your article so egregiously exploits.

Just a quick question to the man writing from "Asia" -- what part of Asia are you in? Is it where there are still bride burnings? Perhaps you're in a part of Asia where girl infanticide and/or abortion is common? Is it a part of Asia where gang raping a boy's sister is considered justice for the boy's crime? Or a place where families commonly sell their daughters into sex slavery? Maybe it's Japan where women are famously subservient to men?

One wonders what conditions are necessary to create the straight-male-Nirvana you describe?

I find it interesting that Shannon feels the need to attack the poster from Asia-- I think his point was not that he lived in a "straight-male nirvana," only that many Asian women seem less sexist in their attitudes towards men than North American women. An interesting counterpoint to Shannon's article might be one examining why so many straight men in North America are now preferring women from other cultures to those from Canada or the U.S. Obviously some of them want subservient women because they can't deal with an equal here in North America. But I suspect than many of them find women here to be too angry, too aggressive, to sexist and obnoxious in their views to be life partners. The fellow from Asia was making a point, gently, I think, that women in other cultures are perhaps less antagonistic and more willing to treat men as equals. A sore point for women here, perhaps, but one that needs addressing. What's wrong, one might ask (tongue firmly in cheek, not wishing to make the same sexist assumptions that Shannon has), with the way women are socialized here in North America that makes them so insecure that they need to attack men at every opportunity from a sense of somehow being slighted?

Curious: some of you see an attack where there's only a question.

Are a lot of North American men preferring women from other cultures? Sez who?

Come to think of it, while were on the subject of authorities why is it so many people who like to air their opinions online don't want to do so under their own names?

Oh, gosh: was that too aggressive? Did it offend your sense of your own masculinity by implying you should grow a pair?

Well, shame on me.

You authored an article, we're just the masses in the pits. As such, we can opt for anonymity. If it makes you feel better, I'm Foley Lynn, pleased to meet you. :-)

Well, shame on me.

Where did that come from? Seems to me that you wrote an article, people commented on it, and a discussion broke out. I'd be thrilled to hear your response to my comments, particularly since quite a few posters agreed with me.

Hopefully we can learn a bit about each others point of view.

I don't have stats on this, but anecdotally there are many non-caucasian women with caucasian men (perhaps I'm unfairly assuming they are non-Canadians dating Canadians, but that's what it looks like) on the streets of Vancouver. This may not represent all of North America, but it is clear there is a phenomenon here.

Foley said it nicely above.

My silly moniker dates back to the last provincial election, wherein I argued on this forum that the NDP should be more moderate and centrist to get more votes. It also refers to my belief in the importance of meaningful dialogue as a precondition for democratic politics and civil society -- I believe that open and sincere dialogue tends to moderate extreme views over time.

But since you (sort of) asked, my name is Steve Petersson. Hello everybody! =^)

I'm no relation to Foley Lynn but I like what he has to say. Shannon, those preconceived notions of straight men just involve you in a silly war that is a waste of time.

Men and women bullshit equally, can be equally harsh, equally tender, and equally loving..though we may sometimes express those emotions in differing ways.

Equal but different. Isn't that what it's all about?

(In many ways I think men are much more vulnerable than women because often they don't have all that support through tough times that women's friendships are famous for.)

Anyway, deep down doesn't everyone on this planet just want to be loved by someone? Why make it unnecessarily harder to cross this minefield of intimacy and desire than it already is?

Hello Everyone !

Good comments overall.

Hi Shannon. My name is Kevan Hudson (originally from Richmond, BC). Until I moved to Korea in March 2003 to become a university teacher I was quite active in politics and the communtiy in the Lower Mainland. Do a google on me.
You will see that I was involved in the Green Party, Amnesty International, the Council of Canadians, the Ogoni issue, etc.

You will also be happy to know that things are changing for women very rapidly in Asia.
Yes, there are problems. The sex trade in South Asia for starters.
However, I have met many women (through friends, politics, work, etc.) in Japan, Korea, Vietnam and China who do not adhere to the stereotype. The younger women (and men too) are slowly asserting their rights within their cultures. For example, many of my women friends don't want to get married until after 30 and some I think may stay single. I also see it everyday in the young people of Korea. They are learning that a drunk old man must earn respect, not get it automatically because he is older than them.
And please don't get me started on drunk older men in Asia culture ! Very annoying to say the least !

I encourage you to visit Asia (if you haven't already). Much of the beauty of the old culture exists. Plus, being an English speaker makes it easy to travel everywhere.

Lastly, I must say that where I live (Suncheon, South Korea) the people are wonderful ! I admire their traditional culture, but I'm happy that some things are changing (roles of men and women, etc.)

I'm off for a vigorous hike now...so have a good weekend everyone !

Sorry not to join in your "you show me yours and I'll show you mine", folks, but I ain't gonna do it - nossir....

I spent four years in Asia (South Korea and Taiwan) and I think the postings toward Shannon are getting a little off topic. Both she and Kevan make good points. Kevan, I have many female Asian friends (born in Asia) and many of them admire the STRENGTH of North American women, and the advances we have made. Rjay's comments about "women here feeling slighted" is ridiculous. Slighted? Who is slighting who? Perhaps we grew up in a culture that taught us we don't need to rely on a man; I know I certainly have always felt that, and that my partner would be a friend above all.

I also happen to know several young Asian men who would LOVE to date North American but are shy or feel the language gap is too great. There is a really twisted view out there that "a lot of North American men are preferring women from other cultures" and like Shannon, I don't entirely know how accurate that is. I think one is always attracted to someone different, from a different place. I have been attracted to Asian men while living overseas, and I always found that due to the great language barrier and the fact that Asian women are FAR MORE outgoing when it comes to learning English, there is definitely currently an advantage in the American man/Asian woman match than the other way around.

The assumption that all N.American woman are "aggressive, sexist and angry" is so tiring... I mean, really.

Holy crap Shannon. Journalists who write articles and then expect everybody who comments on them to agree are certainly not ready for the post-Way New Journalism era we're currently in.

Pete Wilson from the Vancouver Sun went off his rocker on my in email once - before I lived here - because I disagreed with an entire premise of his article. I haven't read him since.

I hope the aggression evident in your posts isn't typical of your response to comments on your stories. Perhaps journalists need thicker skins in the modern era.

Well I am married to an Asian (Maly-Indian mix) and so far I haven’t found a submissive bone in her body. Having dated people from many cultures including my own. I would say that Western women in a very, very general way, have not yet figured out what they want. They seem to be caught between the career, independent drive and the freedoms that they have gained and the older mothering, caregiving stay at home, that they experienced from their mothers and were taught by society . I expect that by another generation things will have settled more and new cultural morals will have evolved that help guide their choices.

I find it interesting that when I spoke of North American men preferring women of other cultures, everyone assumed that I meant Asian. Isn't anyone aware of the huge business in foreign brides taking place, particularly brides from Russia, as well, of course, from Asia? I think much of this is exploitative, the men being used by gold-digging women of other cultures looking for a way to obtain Canadian or American citizenship.But the exploitation goes both ways, I suppose.
As for women here being sexist in their attitudes, Shannon's responses and her article speak for themselves.If a man had written similar things about women, he'd be called a "pig" (a grossly offensive term, by the way, and about as sexist as one can imagine.) Of course Shannon doesn't represent all women, and many have a more balanced view of men, but among my friends, there is an increasing (and somewhat disturbing) trend to write off North American women as simply not worth the effort. Interestingly, many women here in B.C. seem to have picked up on that vibe, complaining about men here not paying much attention to them anymore. That's kind of sad, but understandable, I think.

I'm just wondering where the accolades are for straight men who like to hang around with lesbians because they appear to reject the unflattering stereotypes of hetero women?
Point made, I guess....

Colin, I was told a long time ago that women won't be truly free until men are. Hopefully, we're in a genuine paradigm shift re relations between the sexes.

But it it's a tough row to hoe for those enduring the present uncertainties, which no doubt explains the preference of some men for a more "traditional" woman.

It's beena while since Shannon yelled at anyone here. I'm wondering if she was told to stop, or realized the futility?

Rjay
Actually BC has a long history of importing woman for marriage. BC being a Frontier area, there was a huge imbalance in the Male to female ratio and if you look at the history books, it often quotes when the first white woman showed up in any particular area. The settling and starting of families was seen as a shift from the survival mode to the start of a successful settlement. A businessman seeing that there was a lack of woman in an area, would advertise in a town or city in Europe that there were wealthy man from the goldfields looking for brides in a place where land was cheap and opportunities abounded. Many of the woman who felt they had no future in wherever they were, would pay a fee and be taken by ship to the new world. Of course the men and the land were never quite as advertised. The Yukon was famous for these “imported woman” In fact I believe this is how “Yukon Kate” came to the area.

Yeah, let's all shed a tear for those poor guys mail-ordering brides and getting taken advantage of. (shakes head)

You think?

Shannon probably just has better things to do, unlike the rest of us, haha... but anyway, I agree with Colin's comments but I would have to say many Westerners- women and men (in a very general way of course)- don't know what they want. I'm not sure why this is. You must meet a few of my male friends, Colin, if you think this phenomenon is strictly a woman-thing! I have many male friends who are sesitive, care-giving type men yet still feel that pull toward being the "provider, protector". Did anyone read the article about the survey done in which Canada ranked #1 as the country to agree with the statement that sex is overrated? How sad... I mean, what do we EXPECT? Are our expectations just way overblown? Are we all looking for some ideal that doesn't exist? The article was interesting because it went on to point out that the foggy line of gender roles is confusing many young people- like Colin said, women are torn between being independent, career-types and nurturing care-givers, but so are men! Men nowadays are torn between revealing their sensitive sides and yet still playing the role of protector and provider.

Rjay, your comments are a bit skewed again. I don't know who these women you know are, of course, the "many women here in BC" you speak of, but did it ever occur to you that many of us couldn't care less either way? There are continents full of men- Geez, I have to get myself to South America- where men show flattering interest in women that I sometimes think, sadly, Canadian men are scared to do for fear of being labelled a perv or an assaulter. Which again, is an interesting thing. Is it our over-the-top political correctness which has pushed us to the point of being so... cold, for lack of another word, toward one another? One could say women, too, find few men in BC (I've been here four yrs) who are "worth the effort". It works both ways, ya know... The last two guys I found worth the effort 1) didn't know what he wanted and self-destructed our relationship 2) the second one, who had become a good friend, died tragically in June.

It's going to be some time before I put myself out there again. Hope not all men out there are like your friends, or I'd better hustle to South America as fast as I can, aye? Although I don't think people who "write off" an entire regional group of women without knowing each of them individually are really worth getting to know... Things aren't always as simple as they seem.

Fii

You are right, that men in this society are also struggling with both which role to adopt and how to approach woman in this new era of political correctness. Certainly the later was an unintended byproduct.

An example: In one of my harassment classes at work (talk about a growth industry) the instructor said : before congratulating a woman with a pat on the back you should say, “Can I touch you?” At which point all the women (much to their credit) in the class told the instructor they were nuts and full of it.

Foley: Yes, I do think it goes both ways. You seem to have misundestood my point, which was simply that many men here in North America are looking elsewhere for female companionship. Your comment, however, betrays a kind of politcal correctness around the idea that women can't actually exploit men. After years of feminist propaganda, that's hard to accept, I guess. I only offered this piece of information as a counterpoint to Shannon's argument about straight women and gay men, that's all, my point being that men are also feeling that women here are not worth the effort.Fii seems to take me to task for this,claiming that my views are "skewed", then ends by actually agreeing that political correctness has made men and women cold to each other. Exactly right.
Colin is correct in his claim that mail order brides are an old tradition -- in the States, as well. Actually people often corresponded for quite some time before the woman would come out West to be married to the man. This occurred because the men had left for the West, leaving the eastern cities somewhat lacking in male population, so the women were as eager as the men to find a mate. Now, however, it is a question of Western men looking outside of North America for women. Women are not doing the same thing, as far as I know, so if Fii wants to find a man in South America, she's quite entitled to. But she'll be one of the few doing it.

When terms like 'Fag Hag' become common usage, no wonder there's confusion about gender attitudes! Whether it's called 'reclaimed' or 'deconstructed' or hip, it's an ugly term and I HATE it. Same goes for the word 'cougar'.
A single woman, I completely enjoy the company of gay, straight, married, single, young and old men. I have all sorts of conversations with them and different sorts of friendships. It enriches my life. I gracefully accept compliments from them, and from women, including about my looks. Lighten up, some of you out there, a sense of humour greatly enhances all sorts of human relationships, including intimate ones.
I think they used to call it 'flirtation' or 'coquettishness,' and they still do it, for instance, in Europe, right across age and sex without being knuckle-rapped for it. It makes you feel good as it's part of being fully human.

Shannon, I love you for making that observation about people who write comments under phony names. I used to love the Tyee and heaven knows I made my share of comments, but all these fucking cowards actually almost make me heave up. Personally, I would rather be tortured to death than write a letter to the editor without disclosing my identity. I mean, what else do we have on this planet besides our own identity? I will say, however, that these cowards have explained a lot of human history to me in a way that nothing else could. I now know how the German populace could have watched all those trains going by filled with Jews--and not even come out to protest. Imagine being afraid of divulging our identity in probably the most stable society in the history of world! I still respect the Tyee, but I wish Beers and Co. would bar these people from writing anonymous letters to the editor. It's morally embarassing.

Interesting that the filters didn't catch your swearing.

Hmm... we got heated debate going on here, however, I find it no need for swearing as we are all entitled to our own views.

I am a chinese overseas, never really got to know my own chinese heritage, however I also grew up in Asia - southeast Asian region to be more percise, in Indonesia. Having grew up as a minority in a fairly high tension religious and racial tension country, I find that gender socialization both in the east and the west equally troubling, of course in different ways.

Former BC Boy, Asian women don't judge men as quick as North American women... I suppose they do judge them in different ways, maybe it doesn't come across as judging to you as the criterias & standards are different, and it is relative to where they are coming from... those who are westernized (usually of upper class standing) are quicker in judgment. As being able to have more platonic friendship with Asian women, I suppose it could be due to different social rules in dating. My experiences do not necessarily represent the rest of the Asian population. Besides, to be able to blend in or even have a place in a foreign land, one requires a more open mind compare to living in home land.

Fii... just to let you know that in the country that I am from at least, being able to date a caucasian male (or white men if you'd like to call it) would potentially mobilize the woman's social class and status in society. Perhaps gain face for some. I am not saying that love might not be present, however, that is the reality of interracial marriage. If a man were to venture to my country for example and the woman's family have a high social standing and still traditional setting, especially those ex-colonized countries, there can be tension due to a long standing history of imperialism and colonization. Aside from that barrier, in addition to language barrier, it is also a cultural barrier. Working on a relationship is hard enough without those two barriers. I am not sure what will happen in modern days like today, that you'll just have to find out by travelling. Indonesia is a little to westernized for me to the point that it's worse than in the western country.

What's a little odd of gender roles is that the gender messages are drilled into our heads early on in life and it kept dictating our behaviour. Who says that men can't cry and women can't have an opinion? So, when men feel the need to cry and have the courage to go beyond the stereotyping and what is accepted of the gender role, he has to be gay? And vice versa? It's the stereotypes and the socialization that we grow up with that needs to be examined closely. Personally, what the hell do women want, what the hell do men want, I think we just want them to be real. To have the maturity and wisdom to look beyond stereotypes and to be aware of it and not stuck by it but not have the need to constantly fight the stereotype.

And it is true that asian women do admire the western for their strength and independence. I would be guilty as charged in this matter. However, going about being opinionated all the time and somewhat agressive is not the way I'd like to be as I perceive it not coming from the place of empowerment but coming from the place of the constant need to regain power.

And Truman Green, I'm don't mind revealing my identity if you come and ask me, I just prefer not to post my identity widely in the net for privacy reasons. The print and the written medium are certainly different, which in this medium, comments are not entirely anonymous as one is required to register with thetyee.ca before one is allowed to comment in this space.

Excellent comments here.

Truman wrote re: those who use pseudonyms:

I didn't realize the startling correlation between complicity in genocide and using a pseudonym on an on-line chat board.

I've seen this pattern a lot on this site: lacking any real argument, one draws a comparison between a poster and the Nazi movement. It goes something like this:

1) Adolf Hitler breathed
2) I bet you breathe, too!
3) Therefore, you are complicit in genocide ...

What a load of crap.