Christopher Hitchens really slagged "Fahrenheit" commenting that Moore prefered "leaden sarcasm to irony"(I'm paraphrasing)In the same article C.H. criticizes the school room scene where Bush sits around looking stupid after being informed his country is formally at war by asking (sarcastically)if Bush should have instead leaped out of his chair action hero style,(or some such nonsense)apparently the "irony" of THAT particular crack eluding Mr. Hitchens... I'm certain ANY action whatsoever would have satisfied most observers,other than the breathlessly vacant non-decision Bush opted out on.How annoying to think of Bush capitalizing on 9/11 standing there at ground zero with the bullhorn scooping all those great photo-ops while the dead still lay crushed under the smoking wreckage.I truely hope Mike's masterpiece has a meaningful impact on the coming American election.

This film kicked my ass. I was a bit skeptical after all of the hype and ready to take the piss out of it. Instead I left with my eyes smarting and my heart very troubled, and hands balled into fists. Frankly the right wing SHOULD be terrified of this movie.

Hitchens' review is just more acid reflux brought on by eating his own words. He should stop reading saturated fatheads like Niall Ferguson, and start re-reading a little more William Goldman -- not just 'Lord of the Flies', but this choice offering from a certain Sicilian: "NEVER get involved in a land-war in Asia!"

Yam, yes we should all be afraid, very afraid that this person could very well get re-elected in November.

The thing to watch for is if Moore gets hit with any lawsuits. That will be the only real indicator that someone has proof of his mis-statements of fact. The rest is smoke and mud.

I don't think even the Supreme Court wants Bush to be re-appointed at this point.

First, let me say that i loved the film and admire Moore's courage. That being said, i have some contentions. It seems that the pattern of aggressive american imperial intervention that goes as far back as its inauguration and its subsequent war against the pirates of the barbary coast; the war against the native aboriginals; themanifest destiny wars against the spanish-mexicans; Canada, Hawaii, and Phillipines; the war against themselves; the noble effort in the two world wars; the cold war arms race and subsequent juntas and contras in South and Central America all will be cured by the election of one John Kerry. However, i do realise the value in keeping the issue simple for american audiences. After all, they are probably hearing a lot of this stuff for the first time. Nevertheless, there is a vital coneection that is lacking between corporate driven policy and cultural consumption patterns. I mean, how many people drove home from the theatre, perhaps stopping for a gallon of Ice cream? I hope that they don't feel off the hook just for watching the movie, or feel that Michael Moore and John Kerry will take of everything.

Loved the movie: and it could make the difference! Let's hope so. Now, who the heck is '"Harper"? (I'm an old B.C.'er living in Florida...) The Supreme Court went against him today, too! And that is one conservative court. This could be the week the tide turns.

Sean, how much power do you think a movie, any movie, has?

Bob, Harper is just another of the Marx brothers, along with Groucher and Zepper and Chicker.

Sean, I agree that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that Kerry and the Democrats will fix all those problems, but getting rid of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Powell, Perle, et. al., might be a tiny start. Jeez, even without Moore's film, the incompetence and adventurism of the current US administration even scares the hell out of Israeli hawks. I wouldn't be surprised if the establishment hawks, the US pro-Israeli lobby, the substantial pro-business lobby, etc. turned on Bush, etc., full force because of the damage he has done to brand-name USA.

DANA: how can you measure the value of a piece of art, really? i mean, No Logo sparked a movement. Silent Spring too. The music and manifestos of the sixties. Just because its in film format doesn't reduce its ability to mobilize and influence a population. BOB: Harper is the conservative candidate, who is anti choice, anti immigration, pro-star wars. pro iraq war, pro privatisation etc. STEWART: Oh yes, don't get me wrong. its a necessary step. The Bush admin. must go. Just thought the movie could have used more practical options for citizens. like "when you ride alone, you ride with Osama.

Sean, the USA is what it is, has the history and ethos that it has and is not another thing. Like water is wet and rocks are hard. The thing is what it is.

No Logo sparked a movement that has had little or no impact on the prevalence of logos and the environment is in worse shape now than at the time of Silent Spring by huge orders of magnititude. Music and manifestoes of the sixties (and I was there in the thick of it) led to the Me Generation, NIMBYism, the rise of the religious right and the collapse of American liberalsim.

Sorry for the pessimism but it's true.

I forgot to mention the corporatization and control of the music industry and radio. That too.

For those of us with our eyes and ears open for the last few years - we already knew what to expect from Moores film. Let us hope that many of those that attend the film are those that have not been paying attention or have been spending too much time lapping at the propoganda alter. Moore could very well change the election in the US. He should rework the film and include the images of the torture - that cannot be excused by even the most die-hard Bushie. Well it is being denied or lessoned but the point is still there.

I detest Bush as much as anyone but this movie is crayonish pandering to the converted, uninformative (it doesn't answer any of the good questions it asks) and generally insulting by suggesting the Dems will fix it all. I was very disappointed, especially after he did such a good job with Columbine.

A guy in the New York Press has blasted Christopher Hitchens's attack on Michael Moore. Very entertaining invective, with a worthwhile thought about the general cowardice of the media: http://nypress.com/17/26/news&columns/MattTaibbi.cfm

Thanks for the link Crawford. Scathing credibility check, of Journalism and journalists, author included. Quite an affirmation of real work. I remember hearing a comment by Judy Rebik on the role of media: "to afflict the comfortable, and comfort the afflicted". That might be the "goal" but my how far from the mark so often. I think a challenge faced by journalists is the ideas of "binary" news reporting (which I believe is the term). The notion of representing the "opposing sides" of an idea or argument. It's also a lovely and clever way to invent a fence - work creation for many journalists - and just sit there, waxing poetic about "the issues", and "report" abstract representations of "others" opinions. That's a tricky dance - since it is impossible to a actually be "objective". The reporter is also creating that which they view - no matter how hard they try to antisepticaly escape that fact. People have a core role in creating what they view.

The NDP (or any party) will be effective where they have grassroot idea support - and translate that into empowerment for their constuency. The idea of PR is fundamentally about local, personal power - not about percentage accounting. If the NDP gets in touch with a broad local constituency, in terms of benevolent idea creation, including wealth creation, that is of and for, as compared to falsely perceived to be against, "it" will become ,as a political constituency. In terms of media, that also speaks to image change. It's not that the NDP needs to change, it needs to demonstrate difference from other parties style and substance, in the grassroots manner of policy making efforts. and this has to happen regularly - and be celebrated. That inherently is its greatest probable strength - it is a group of social individuals in terms of values. The last is really key - the individual must be celebrated, and what creates a happy individual. If the NDP can learn to say and be a party of individuals that support the poosiblities of the individual, and of an individual amongst the many, then its strength will naturally become greater - and possibly quite quickly, regardless of pollsters might say and other bean counters might wish.

Appologies on the second part (paragraph) of my post being mis-posted here on this thread. I'd composed it in my text editor, on the same continuing page as this post's response, and inadvertantly copied and pasted the entire text page, as compared to just the separate paragraph segment. Sorry.

Last night my wife and I went to see Fahrenheit 911 and to my surprise I found myself glued to the movie. It was obviously one filmmaker’s outlook on events and the Bush family. As we all know conspiracy theories, gossip and dirt seem to always sell papers, magazines, and books and make for a good entertainment at the expense of others. I must however applaud Mr. Moore for waking Americans (CDNs inc.) up out of our daze for a moment to question. Republican, Democrat, Liberal or NDP, whatever your poison, (I meant to say position) it is our right, privilege and responsibly to question and make accountable our leaders & government. The movie made me even more determined to fight for a VOICE for British Columbians in the affairs of America and the World. When the President makes a decision or America sneezes it affects BC, but right now there's sweet-piss-all BCers can do about it. Forget Ottawa they can’t hear us, we need a VOICE in Washington! BCers need to be voting for Bush or Kerry, not Martin or Harper if we expect to exact any serious change for BC and our future generations.

Consider Marcus Gee's take on Fahrenheit 9/11 in this morning's Globe: http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC /20040630/COGEE30/Comment/Idx As a longtime student of propaganda, I find the response to the film at least as interesting as the film itself.

Here's the correct link to Marcus Gee's article http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/ 20040630/COGEE30/Columnists/Columnist?author=Marcus+Gee

I just read Marcus Gee's column and also found it very interesting. I think that most reasonable people do not take for granted everything presented in Farenheit 911. I have not seen the film but I know that Mr. Moore is in the business of entertainment and I would take most of what he presents with a grain of salt. Marcus Gee seems to think that most people are not capable of watching this movie and seperating truth from fiction or from making intelligent decisions about the material presented. Many people are apathetic and don't do things like vote because nearly all media is corrupt and full of propaganda. We may not know the exact truth but we know when to call bullshit.

Marcus Gee, the token Neo-Con appointed to the Globe and Mail in order to pacify the "Mail" readership base (if they still have one or two), is running scared. So's Hitchens. They can't help seeing how many people realize that Bush & Cronies have made the world so safe for Al Quaeda, it can practically sell girl-guide cookies door to door. Hence the operatic warbling of their writing. Funny how these repressed Hemingway-types turn into Faulkners of adjectives when someone like Moore pushes their panic trigger. Here's another link if anyone actually needs to confirm what should be self-evident by now: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0426/goldstein.php

---Erm, that's "Al Qaeda". (No edit or spell-check feature on this forum).

Still waiting for one of the allegers of Moore's lies to sue him for it. They'd be frothing at the mouth to do it to him if they could. Still waiting...maybe we should get Marcus GeeWhiz to sue Moore since GeeWhiz has the lies all sussed out so thoroughly.

Christopher Hitchens -who once had the courage and integrity to rake bill clinton over the coals for selling out progressive ideals with his "thirdway liberalism," ie. talk as progressively as possible while turning whitehouse access into cash-and-carry one stop shopping for the wealthy elite- has been an enormous disappointment ever since 9-11. After 9-11 hitchens morphed into an apologist for expansion of the american empire and his credibility now depends on continuing to support american hegemony...a rather pathetic end of a once courageous and respected journalist. The fact that america's economy under bush risks collapse if america exits a war time economy is of very grave concern... wars declared, and undeclared, by the u.s. are all that keeps its economy moving after the grevious damage done by bush's trillion dollar taxcuts...we can only hope that moore's message combined with the gutted american home economy will finally wake the american mainstream up to the folly of a neo-liberal agenda, under any party....

Lewis, I am sorry to report that the american mainstream will never awaken. I was lulled to sleep with their self-righteous, we are the greatest, we are the king of the castle mentality and the whole world owes us and should grovel at our feet mentality. It shocks me the number of americans that I meet daily that really believe that the world owes them a debt of gratitude and that they live in the greatest country in the world. I then tell them of the great country to the north that IS the greatest country in the world.

I fear you are right elly ess; only a disaster of the most profound magnitude will awake the american people. However, with both an over-extended war machine and an economy dependent -like the war machine- on rapidly dwindling fossil fuels, that disaster may not be long in the offing....

Sadly, it took a disaster of the most profound magnitude to allow the American people to be bamboozled into this disastrous Iraq quagmire. Another may simply send them yet deeper into others. Only now is the slumbering giant beginning to awaken, ever so tremulously, to the realization that they have been had. And even at that, even with a huge majority now saying that the administration misled them into war, George W. Bush's re-election numbers are on a par with John Kerry's.

I've been reading the coverage of F9/11. If the US mainstream press had given a quarter of the critical attention they're giving to this movie to Bush's pre-war claims Bush wouldn't have been able to bully pulpit them into it.

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/ has some good discussion on the film and http://www.whatreallyhappened.com links all kinds of reviews and happenings around it. I haven't seen it and nothing I've heard makes me want to run to see it. Bowling for Columbine was a big let down and I suspect the same of Moore's latest. I'll save my dollars to support a Canadian film on a Canadian screen. Certainly nothing Moore seems to offer is anything I don't already know and his research on 9/11 and the Saudis is either disinformation or sloppy. As for art changing society, it obviously has impacts but a single work won't solve everything anymore than a new leader of a political party. Remember all those great books George Orwell wrote and here we are in the midst of what he wrote of. My understanding is Uncle Tom's Cabin is documented as one of the most influential works of art ever as it mobilized a white abolitionist movement. Interestingly it is not by current standards a great work of art and it left our culture with some very damaging stereotypes. Although an abolitionist catalyst, the novel and subsequent stage adaptations were also racist. From what I hear Moore's film is also racist and no more a great work of art than Uncle Tom's Cabin is great novel. I do wonder what Cannes is up to with their choices of films -- last year Elephant was a bigger winner (not a pick for a great or complex film) and this Moore (not a pick for a complex intellect or politic.) Finally I wouldn't be able to vote for Bush or Kerry. Maybe I'd write in Kucinich.

F9/11 may not change minds in Riverside, California but it intensified the committment of the Democratic base to defeat Bush. The noon showing sold out , people vocalized their anger and applauded the film--this in the most conservative area of Southern California---George Bush is gone in November!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1242561,00.html. It's a bit premature to calculate how outraged Americans are over Bush.

Who would have thought we'd be lining up at box offices to watch documentaries on Corporations, MacDonalds and George Bush. Not surprising when you think back to the impact of NFB films lf You Love This Planet and Not a Love Story

I saw 'SuperSize Me' yesterday (I like the tune that plays while the credits roll) and it was hilarious and sad. Nothing I didn't really know; the bit about the crap kids are fed in schools made me angry and astounded that parents aren't aware or are accepting this. The school for "difficult" kids which now serves organic lunches and has seen a huge increase in their improvement is enough for a spin-off documentary itself.

It did propel me home faster than usual on my bike and cause me to enjoy more than ever my standard Mon-Fri rice bowl with piles of greens. I almost skipped the ice-cream; almost. Haven't seen F9/11 yet but am looking forward to it. I think these movies are a fantastic thing- after all, McD's ditched its super size after the film aired at the Sundance Fest. Perhaps I'm an eternal optimist, but I think these films have great impact.

I just got back from the movie and couldn't help being disgusted by the hypocrisy. Moore goes to great lengths to paint Bush with the brush of a racketeer and opportunist while at the same time his movie grosses over 21m dollars offering his account of historical events. Moore, donate the profits of the movie to the wounded soldiers or dead soldiers families and then I will be impressed with your noble effort to expose the "truth" about George W. Bush and the American system. generating profit while illustrating the suffering of others in an effort to undermine a leader, merely reflects your own character as a journalist.

Larry, apparently sixty percent of the profits from "Fahrenheit" will go to charities. (See http://money.cnn.com/2004/07/02/news/newsmakers/fahrenheit_charities/ ) However it's up to Disney to decide whether the money is donated to wounded soldiers or Jeb Bush's re-election campaign.

Ross, that's going to be a tough choice for Mickey and Minnie. Compassion or Commercials.

Disney plans to put out a mockumentary called "America's Heart and Soul" instead. It wants y'all to feel upbeat and perky about the Iraqis the US murdered and tortured. I wish I had my friend's collection of photographs of bodies dumped in the ditches El Salvador during the height of Duarte's death-squads. Nine-year-old girls raped and murdered. Old men and women. Babies! Entire villages of families. People so badly beaten, they had no faces left. Some major regions of America's REAL Heart and Soul could be more aptly described by Joseph Conrad than the fairy-tale fantasylanders.

I thought Disney didn't release the movie? And Larry- Moore is hardly a picture of rampant consumerism. Has he even bought a new hat yet? He puts the money back into the next bigger and better film. I'd much rather go and see movies made by him than the often one-dimensional view of the top Hollywood directors. (duh car crash duh guns bam bam duh half dressed woman duh guy saves the world duh same ol' formula over and over again). Real life- nice writing skills, buddy.... that sentence I just wrote in brackets sounds like how you probably talk.

Moore continues his frontal attack on the Bush establishment, and rightly so. HOwever if he had only refrained from telling Candains how they should vote.....Must be me, but any american doing so seems to get my dander up...So keep up the good work Michael. but focus on George W. We took care of Harper all on our own.

Fiona: I just checked that site out on F ahrenheit 9/11 charities - apparently it was originally financed by Disney's unit Miramax, but in declining to release it they sold the distribution rights to the Weinstein brothers, who will get 40% of the profits and Disney will get the other 60% ( I guess this is profits from distribution alone, not sure ) I actually thought Lion's Gate films had something to do with it but I guess I'm completely off base on that one. Real Barking Mad Fox Channel, great comment, heart of darkness, indeed.

Cheers, Lynn. I see we have a Limbaugh calling the Moore fat. Not only does Bush divert America's war effort off on that wild-goose chase through Iraq, he's an Al Qaeda recruiter's wet dream.

Just been on michael moore's website, www.michaelmoore.com and was amazed to learn farenheit 9-11 outgrossed Return of the Jedi's first weekend on its first weekend. Repeated anecdotal evidence has republican bushites turning into democrats before the film's end. This movie is happily, far, far, worse news for the bush regime than I thought....now, if we can just get a documentary made about about gordon liar, perhaps something along the lines of a confessional: "I ran as a moderate, then crawled up the fraser institute's butt..." strikes me as a apt and accurate title, although other appellations may be even more suitable... maybe, "Ethics? Me???" or perhaps, "I was a middle aged prostitute for the fraser institute...." but you get the idea....

I just saw it. I just got home from seeing it. I'd thought it was going to be funny.

What I meant (though I don't think it came out right above) was that it was intense and painful, and left me almost speechless. I can't remember the last time, if there were any times, when I was in a theatre and people clapped at the end of the show. And, no, not because it was over, but because we all wanted Bush to be over.

This movie was very informative and its style and the politics of Michael Moore are less important then the impact it has on popular culture. It has us talking again about the movies and politics and opening our eyes again to events that should have been covered by the popular press. The problem is that the popular press has its roots tied into advertising and back room politics. Those politics involve selling papers that sell products. Or it involves employees of the papers being more concerned about career agendas then the importance of the press in getting the truth out to the public. Governments have allowed this to happen by not controlling the number of newspapers owned by one individual or company. In fact companies, as explained in The Corporation by Joel Bakan, are placing there own economic self interests into the minds of their readers so that they can achieve the economic agendas of their neo-conservative owners. The empires of companies like Global make it so that we only get what business wants us to see or they will pull the ads. Hats off to Michael Moore for providing us with information and understanding that we have enough common sense to determine bias. Also the movie demonstates that the press has been unsucessful in telling us the truth because movies like this wouldn't have been so successful if the public had felt they knew the information already. The success of this movie is based in the fact that society as whole have felt disenfranchised from being heard and we celebrate that someone finally has the guts to speak the opinions we have kept quietly to ourselves.

Dana, you sound as cynical as I feel about the USA... the history of aggression runs too deeply for me to feel there is much chance of anything except more of the same...go to fromthewilderness for some more exposure of the link between GoldOilDrugs (GOD). Jesus, they gave Kissinger the Nobel Peace Prize...and that did it for me as far as THAT award!! Of course Michael Moore is biased. Politics is personal. Any documentary is biased. As soon as someone turns on a camera "real" disappears and "the medium is the message"...........

In a recent interview on Charlie Rose (PBS), Michael Moore mentioned that he has challenged the GOP, and the 527 groups in particular, to find any factual errors in his film. He will pay $10,000 for each factual error found. No one has taken him up on it yet.

i hope bush is out of office a.s.a.p

I am an open minded person and had to see this movie for myself. I will not tell you who to vote for or what to believe. But I urge you to not go away after watching this movie and take everything it has to say for fact, until you have researched the statements it has made and prove them to be true. On the same note, watch movies such as Farenhype 9/11 and research their statements as well. Just because people are political figures with a strong voice does not make what they say true or untrue, just heard. Please research any polictical statements you feel strongly about (in movies, media, and from canidates themselves), and base your decision off of facts not others opinions. Make sure and go out and vote for whoever you decide is the best canidate.

boycott brand america