The RCMP constables involved

The RCMP constables involved should be Fired and charged with manslaughter.

There was no need for what those 'thugs' and 'goons' did. The video was very sickening to watch.

Personally I would like to see them charged with murder but I really doubt anything will ever happen to them anyway.

Police investigating Police is wrong and I know how this is going to turn out.

Tasers should also be banned.

RCMP flak catcher

What I thought was most illuminating was the statement of the police media spokesman (Sgt Pierre Lemaitre) at the time of the incident:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/10/15/taser-death.html
and the subsequent querulous climb-down on TV (in French) last evening.

This is the same man who pooh-poohed the testimony at the Ian Bush Coroner's inquest.

Time once was when this was a welcoming, helpful and gentle place.

Time was when the police told the truth and acted with honour.

I hope the poor man's estate is preparing a very big law suit.

This makes a lovely introduction to YVR for the upcoming Olympics. Can we expect the Taser-tots to be in attendance when all those foreign athletes and journalists descend upon Richmond babbling like geese in strange and exotic tongues?

Not much wonder why the police didn't want the video released.

Camcorder Videos and the Police

I would like to find out what rights and responsibilities we have if we record something that the police wants. Perhaps The Tyee can offer advice.

Tasers don't go bang

I remember reading sometime back about the number of deaths involving tasers it was something like 60 but really can't give much more info but I remember thinking AMAZING the numbers and I didn't recall reading of any of the deaths. Well not like this one for sure as I remember thinking when an officer and a gun is used its all over the news. Aren't these tasers just supposed to be stun guns and with all the technology we have today they must be able to come up with something that doesn't end up possibly killing the person it is used on for both the sake of the officer and those they have to subdue?

It was manslaughter -- all

It was manslaughter -- all 4 policemen should be charged (and fired from the force).

The information booth personnel who obviously refused to accord respect to a lady who spoke poor English and was obviously not well-heeled and well-connected should also be fired, as well as whoever was responsible for monitoring security in the baggage hall.

It would be a mistake, however, to focus only on those whose direct performance was so lacking in a human dimension. Their attitudes and behaviour reflect that of their organisations and the leadership.

It was depressing to see the fat-cat head of Vancouver Airport who refused to admit there had been a massive failure. Several political leaders have shed crocodile tears, but refused to admit the possibility that there are systemic problems here which need to be addressed -- over and above issues of "staff training." (which is, of course, also important)

The authorities had this information for a month. But they are only expressing concerns now that the film has been made public.

Let's hope more ordinary people equip themselves with cameras like Mr. Pritchards so that there can be better monitoring by the public.

Sickening.

I teared up watching this video and reading

about in CanWest's Province.

The RCMP murdered this man.

These cops tasered him needlessly a few seconds after confronting him, then they tasered him again while they were suppressing his movement with their body weights, with him lying on the floor.

Four big cops standing within a few feet of this guy. They'd have done better to draw their guns and demand that he get on the ground, if they insist on being cowards.

I've personally been in more dangerous situations with violent men than that and managed to walk away without being injured, or injured anybody else.

A woman was successful in calming him down temporarily and he didn't make any violent moves toward her.

Maybe this will instigate the removal of the cops' right to investigate themselves.

Luckily this incident was caught on video. I wonder how many confrontations are handled as criminally as this away from video cameras.

at the very least

we should scrap the cute ad that claims, that 'diversity lives here', when the truth obviuously is, that it dies here. We should get to the rock-bottom of how this went so wrong. It looked as if the police officers turned into a mindless mob, rather than four individuals. It must be possible to effect training, which would prevent such a thing, even if we all encountered it in the school yard. But it also looked as if the collective indifference from everyone around must have played a role. Ten hours of waiting sounds horrendous. It is hard to believe someone being so little assertive. If there are so gross differences bewtwen cultures, we should not invite civilised and less than hard-as-nails people into our fair country without insisting on making it clear to them, that this is no gentle place. We hear this pretentious garbage, that in case of a disaster, we will 'be on our own' for 72 hours. It seems to me that this occurrence bears witness that none of us are ever anything else than 'on our own'.

How have we come to this?

Have we on this continent become so paranoid that anyone a little different scares us so much we have to taser them? Whatever happened to using a little commonsense and trying to communicate with a person? There were four of them including airport security and they could not handle one person who had been frustrated for nine hours without anyone thinking that maybe they should call for someone who could speak one of the slavic languages. Is the Airport staff so inept? Are the police so inept?

The tragedy is colossal and I can't help wondering if this is all part of the paranoia from the Bush administration slowly making its way into out society. Vancouver is suppose to be an international airport for heaven's sake.

Time

I heard twice on the video..."Theres 300 coming in here on Cathay and they`ll be coming through here!"..so its hurryup time?..no time for niceties?...get down to business?.. can`t have a bad impression for those incoming 300 on Cathay to the best place on earth..thru the Olympic Gateway?..heard it twice on the video...wonder if the horsemen were having that in their ear from the moment they arrived at the the Terminal..

Taser Time Zone

Unfortunately this needless and unfortunate death has served to wake the "masses" up.

I just heard on CTV Mike Duffy show one of the commentator say that "when the cops gun down a gangster and say it's self defence-people tend to look away".

Well even the media cannot look away on this one. Thanks goodness for that video....what would we be told without it?

Many of us have known for years that the police lie and cover up but never have they been caught so blantantly before.

It's not those four cops alone but the "cop culture" that allowed them to think they could do this and get away with it.

It took only 24 seconds between the time the cops approached Robert Dziekanski and then tasered him to death.

Next time a cop approaches you or your friends or family be aware that the clock has started 1 2 3 4 5 6.........

Sickened and saddened

One of the downsides of canceling our cable TV five years ago is one loses the protective layer of cynicism that is built up from years of watching TV violence. Thus, when I decided to go to YouTube and watch this event I was overwhelmed. Sickened and saddened, the video is a stark reminder of how our societal organs have withered. The police, large, eager fellows, appeared to want nothing more than to mix it up with some poor, deranged immigrant. As power has become more and more concentrated in Western society, it is being used more unilaterally and more viciously. This video reflects that movement. We're really not far from the behaviours seen in 1932 Germany, when a highly nationalistic regime (supported by German industry and commerce) began using a similar use of force. One can almost sense the contempt and anger bubbling just below the surface of our current "leaders", which is telegraphed directly to our enforcement sectors. This is a trend that has all the hallmarks of getting much, much worse. Great article Tyee.

soft jobs

Why in the world did the airport security personel not attempt to defuse the situation?
"Not my problem, man?"

My past experiences trying to get any information from any airport personel is that they deliberately hide in their little cubbyholes, so as to avoid having to face the public "out there"!

The place is filled with people, but try to find any official who will give you the time of the day; they have a soft job and do their best to make it even less stressful.

About the police: it also turns my stomach to see all the fanfare when on of them dies on duty; Their job is a risky one, so accept that occasionally that risk factor catches up with you!

Factory workers also have fatalities, but you do not see thousands of union people travelling the length of the country to show support, in other words give us a break !

About tazers: what happened to the nightstick?

Is the goal to be able to stand away 5 feet from any possible confrontation?

Will we next see a robot maneuvered into a situation and the officers hiding behind a bulletproof screen?

If scared of approaching people, then get another job fellows!

photographer rights in Canada

AmbientLight.ca offers a good overview of photography laws. Pritchard was wise to threaten to sue the police for keeping his recordings. Not that he'd really want to question a gang of officers that just Tasered a man to death, but the police had no right to cease his tapes in the first place.

taser

On a daily basis, children/teens in our schools exhibit behaviours like those displayed by Mr. Dziekanski. I think that Mr. Dziekanski's behaviour was not all that out of line considering he had been detained in a place where he did not understand the language and hadn't been fed for many hours at the end of an emotional journey to meet his mother.

The man was posing no immediate danger; there was no need to use violence. There was a need to establish communication. These officers showed no communication skills; they did not attempt to estabish communication. In an airport, a place where one could expect foreigners to be arriving, the police and airport officials have a duty to ascertain the language the person uses and to find a way to communicate. The first thing to be said should be smething like: "We are here to help you". Some of the first questions offered in a non-threatening manner would then be: "Would you like a glass of water, or something to eat?... Is there someone who is supposed to meet you?... What do you think we can do to help you right now?". Basic communication.

Just imagine if teachers tasered or night-sticked students who act-out in the schools.

Echoing most earlier comments

The police officers involved should be charged for assault causing death, perhaps manslaughter and at the very least fired!

What a joke of an airport! International, really! I agree with the airport personnel comment of hiding in their cubby holes-all too often that happens!

Without the video would the cops have gotten away with it?

Whatever happened to the skill of taliking and listening?

I also believe its an efficiency issue.

Instead of taking time to talk down the subject/person, its more efficient to zap him/her and get them out of the area (because 300 Cathay Paciifc passengers are coming through for example).

No wonder so many do not trust police, just as we do not trust politicians!

There is some evidence in the literature

I believe there is some evidence in the literature that indicates the police are more likely to use violence in situations where they are being watched by members of the public.

In circumstances where only the police and the 'target' are involved it seems the authorities are much more likely to be patient and gentle - using more compassionate means to address a problem like the one at YVR.

Somehow, it seems the training, testosterone and the idea that observers might judge them less than fully masculine seems to kick in.

Certainly, there is no reason why this incident had to end so badly. On the other hand, putting all the responsibility for this on the police is probably unfair. The real accountability has to come from YVR for appallingly bad management at the airport.

Ironically, by trying to make an embarrassment ‘go away’ they have exposed the pathetic state of training, staffing and decision-making in their operation.

Eloquently stated

Most people here have so eloquently stated what I'm thinking that I don't have much to add, except to say to Olympics athletes and spectators:

"Welcome to Vancouver in 2010.

We can't wait for you to arrive."

Video Surveilling the Police

Those four policemen murdered that unarmed man (surely a stapler doesn't count) and they will get away with it just like all the other police who have murdered, assaulted, and otherwise abused their authority.

The Police are always in favor of video surveillance of the citizenry. Perhaps it's the Police themselves who need to be under constant video surveillance by citizens.

Perry

Good point Perry, after all, if they aren't doing anything wrong why would they object to video surveillance while on the job?

Demonstration Nov 24 @Art Gallery, 12PM

Protest against RCMP using excessive force on Robert!
Host: Facebook Group - "Petition against RCMP officers involved in YVR Tazer Death"

Date: Saturday, November 24, 2007
Time: 12:00pm - 3:00pm
Location: Downtown Vancouver, Art Gallery (Georgia Street side)
City/Town: Vancouver, BC

Description:A protest against the brutality shown in the video, which resulted in the death of new immigrant Robert Dziekanski, 40. Please express your interest by showing up next Saturday November 24th, downtown at the Vancouver Art Gallery, Georgia Street side. Rally will commence 12pm. Please try to wear the red/white colors of the deceased's Polish heritage, in his memory. Remember, this is about awareness of the tragedy and a protest against the excessive use of tasers, _NOT_ an anti-police rally. THIS WILL BE A PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION!

It's systemic

You're right realisticman. It's more than an isolated tragedy. It's systemic and representative of the way we have allowed ourselves to be treated and to become.

When you ignore the small stuff it starts to fester, and one day ... it pops.

Can good come of this?

Here's what happened to me 20 minutes ago ....

I was walking up Main near Broadway, and I saw a woman about fifty approaching people on the street. They rushed past her and she eventually came to me. I'm thinking panhandler, but as she got closer I could see she was nicely dressed, and probably of Latin heritage.

When she spoke she was impossible to understand. But sprinkled in her conversation was the phrase "lawyer's office".

I hastily thought, "How would I know where the lawyers office was on Main?" It's a big busy street full of lawyer-type walks ups, but I politely said, no sorry, and kept walking, just like everyone else did.

In about three steps I thought about the Polish immigrant, Robert Dziekanski, who was also ignored, and I thought of his mother and his family.

In about five seconds I started to eyeball the neighborhood and I walked up the block a bit and studied the ID signs in front of each doorway until I found one that said Barristers & Solicitors.

I walked back down the block looking for the woman, and couldn't see her on the street so I walked into a shop and looked around. I found her waiting in line at a customer service desk and caught her eye and motioned her to follow me.

Because she didn't speak English I just kept repeating lawyer, lawyer as we walked back up the street.

When we came to the lawyer's office she tried to go through the front door, but had to be buzzed in. So I did it for her and waited for the receptionist to let her in. She thanked me in at least two languages as she walked through the door.

It took less than five minutes total to help her.

I probably would not have taken the time if it wasn't for this incident at the airport.

24

How do you assess any situation in 24 seconds? Call it 30 seconds. Apparently the man was in the area for 8 hours or more, waiting for somone or something, perhaps assistance. His mother was supposed to pick him up. What information did the police have in advance to warrant these actions? Who called them and what were they told? This has to be a factor, otherwise there is no justification, period for what the video clip shows happening in the first 30 seconds. Is there any audio transcript of what was recorded on this video? BTC above notes they seemed to be hurried with a pending arrival. This obviously doesn't tell the whole story, as we don't know the context. The only defence possible will be to explain that they had prior information that deemed this man a threat. The video doesn't appear to support that version. The eyewitness accounts don't appear to support it either. How long will it take the RCMP to get their story straight on this one?

Candlelight Vigil Tomorrow

My heart goes out to his family. This is an absolute tragedy.

For those who would like to come out to the candlelight vigil at Vancouver International Airport tomorrow - here is more information:
http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=7259450372&ref=share

transcript

Yes, there is.

Dziekanski basically complains about the way he's not getting any help and says he's going to sue someone. When the police show up he says something to the effect of "Finally" as though he's expecting the police to assist him.

Obviously, I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it.

The police spokesman

When the police spokesman tried to explain that the video would only be one small part of the evidence and we should all wait till all the evidence was in before passing judgment, my thought was, "Is he really that naive." This was not a small part of the evidence this was a video of the whole episode. He would have been more credible if he had acknowledged that it was a pretty large part of the evidence and was pretty damaging and that they had a duty to do an complete and impartial review

Leadership...lacking

frank2 wrote:

Absolutely, all 4 of those constables were young men, under the age of 22 by my estimation, therefore no way could any one of them be a 'supervisor'.

With four young men, probably all of them inexperienced (as it shows clearly they do not how to get into that area without 'jumping over the barrier'), then they would likely call on one-another to 'back-up' each other. They all have loads of calls to deal with in any one night. I'd be interested to know what any one of them had done in the 2 hours previously (if any one of them had been in a fight or had to separate someone else from one another or in a physical confrontation), as those constables would be in a heightened state of aggression with adrenalin still pumping, still likely angry?

Ultimately I totally agree with frank2 in posing the question:

"Where the *bleep* are the supervisors? Where was the watch commander - letting four officers respond without supervision? Where was the Corporal?"

Royal Citizen Murdering Police

A friend of mine said there are bad apples in all groups of people. That may be true but if the group as a whole allows these so called bad apples to murder the people they are supposed to protect then as I see it the whole group can be painted with the same brush. I would if I was an RCMP be ashamed to show myself in public in uniform as long as they let these lowlife swine continue on in their ranks. They no longer deserve any respect from the citizenry, they deserve to be disrespected and ignored until they are capable of purging their ranks of the lowlife murdering swine that seems to have infiltrated their membership

Coming to Canada

How easily this could have all been so different. This was simply a man, a man with a very kind face by the way, upset and alone in a new country....just trying to find out where his mother was.

Now it is a tragic revelation of the times and the kind of country we are now living in....and if tasers and the kind of mind-set that created them are not banned it is also a foreboding of things to come.

Amnesty International's recent report (2007) on the inappropriate and excessive use of tasers in Canada is a real eye-opener. It contains a long list of case histories of those (some of them children)who have fallen victim to what is really the cruel depravity of its users:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/document.php?lang=e&id=ENGAMR200022007

A few sample case histories:

A few sample case histories:

16 September 2006, New Brunswick RCMP: A 17-year-old was tasered at least 13 times by RCMP officers. According to the officers, the boy was "combative and resistant" and "to effectively and safely arrest him, [they] had to use a directed energy weapon to get him under control". According to reports, the teenager's back and stomach were covered in burns from the weapon; seven marks on his lower back and approximately six more on his front, including his groin. A witness to the incident claimed that the use of the taser was not necessary as the boy was not resisting arrest. She added, the incident "went on for twenty minutes. They kept telling him to get on his back but every time he tried to turn, they'd keep tasering him. It was just horrible."

12 April 2006, Waterloo Regional Police: A 36-year-old psychiatric patient was shot with a taser as police officers attempted to subdue him. After he was shot, the patient was handcuffed and given a sedative and secured onto a gurney. Moments later he went into cardiac arrest and was resuscitated at the scene. The patient remained in hospital for six days following the incident.

The Ontario Special Investigations Unit cleared the officer involved of wrongdoing and concluded that the officer's use of the taser represented a reasonable and justified use of force. The report did not examine whether the taser caused the cardiac arrest.

Ten Algerians were acquitted in February 2006 of charges of mischief in connection with an incident in May 2003 in which they initiated a sit-in in the immigration minister's office. After refusing to leave the office, several members of the group were shocked with tasers as they were forcibly arrested. In her ruling, Ontario Court Judge Anne Alder did not address the demonstrators' complaints of police brutality, but did recognize the sit-in had been conducted calmly and non-violently and had not disrupted the activities of the immigration minister's employees.

No officers were disciplined in the case.

Paul Smith: In November 2005 an Ottawa police officer was found guilty of misconduct by the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services which ruled that he had committed an "unnecessary exercise of authority" when he used a taser on Paul Smith -- who was handcuffed at the time -- during a protest outside a citizenship and immigration office on 29 May 2003.

Taser Weapons

I believe that the Americans classified tasers as firearms until the mid-nineties. Only when gunpowder charges were removed, were they used widely.

No trainer would EVER instruct use of tasers to the ends of an arrest, when other means were available.

A Special Prosecutor needs to direct the investigation. Proving Assault (and there are several forms) requires proof of an application of force, without justification. Self Defence is a Criminal Code defence. As I write, cops will be attempting to concoct an ersatz exhoneration on a specious acceptance that the cop conduct was both reasonable and necessary, to effect an arrest.

Didn't RCMP members get away with unlawful use of toxic chemicals against the APEC protesters. Judge Hughes did NOT find said use to be unlawful. And damn him for that finding.

indifference

It is not too difficult to imagine the frustration and exhaustion of
the Polish immigrant arriving at the Vancouver airport and being unable to ask for help. However, it is beyond my comprehension that Mr. Dziekanski's
mother who spoke English hadn't received assistance while begging for help
trying to locate her son. Although the police are directly responsible
for the death of Mr. Dziekanski, YVR should also feel responsible for what had happened that night because this tragic situation could have been
avoided if any of the airport employees showed some care.

Global Impact

Youtube reports almost 400.000 views of the video, and that is before a weekend, and without global word of mouth. East Europeans will boycott the Olympics if we don't do the sane thing and charge those RCMP gangsters.

By the way, if you want to download Youtube videos, this link is best. Some Flashviewer vids can be opened with Mediaplayer (flv can't be paused; MP can).

http://www.viloader.net/

I mentioned this in another

I mentioned this in another thread, but did anyone attempt CPR? Not that I've heard/seen.

Exactly Andrea

People screw up all the time. I still remember running my first Code Red (fire emergency) in the hospital I was operating, and I screwed up just about everything, and with no backup (long weekend). But I survived, cleaned up the mess, and learned.

So the thing that jumps out at me here is that the ambulance took ten minutes to show, and in all that time, the cops just stood around looking at each other? No CPR?

You wouldn't get away with that in a hospital. I know the cops are trained in BCLS (basic cardiac life support), so what happened?

It's OK to screw up. It's not OK not to learn from it, or not to try to fix what you broke.

Why no CPR? What happened...

Wrote Zalm.

Yes they are given that very basic training, then they are rigourously trained in take-downs and hold and physical confrontation techniques...they practice them almost every day for 6 weeks on each other. They get to know that it is hard work and painful to boot.

Then they get out from depot and get to use more fun field toys...like the tazer. They then want to practice with these new tools, just as much and with as much intensity as they did with hand-to-hand combat and their primary firearm.

What is totally forgotten after such repeated exposures to these 'tools': guns, pepper spray (Prime Ministers Choice - of course) and the tazer; is the progression in the use of force in a confrontation situation. First is a smile, and attempt at communication. After having two rookies point their guns at me in Burnaby 9 years ago, then seeing the total lack of proper negotiation anything going on in Surrey 8 years ago, I was pleased to leave the big smoke and its loads of rookies.

Only two years ago I ended up confronted again, while seated in my car waiting outside the library. The constable did not even say hello...it was straight to give me your licence and why are you here. Not phrased as a question at all, just feed me the data and I get to decide your fate.

This is what comes from no accountability, as there is no way that a provincial anything will get to trump federal jurisdiction. This is why the video in this case is so important, the RCMP are finally going to have to survive the really hard court, the court of public opinion.

We must not let them off the hook for this action, keep the heat on!

Hey, no issue....

...with the inappropriateness of their actions. I've had a run-in with the Vancouver cops one time on behalf first of people I didn't even know, and then on behalf of friends that tried to help, that forever changed my mind about how discriminating they are about who it is they're protecting when they've got their badges on. It's not for no reason they're called the biggest gang in the city.

But that still doesn't answer my question. I'm not expecting them to act like they were in a hospital. After all, I got 'five minutes training' in takedowns of psychiatric patients too once a year for a few years. I probably screwed up on those as well (none come to mind but...)

I simply find it hard to believe that four officers, never mind junior or whatever, four HUMAN BEINGS could sit around watching a man die and not take basic steps to extend what remained of his life, or ask for help from the civilians. That's the part that really interests me.

Or is this just fallout from the video-game generation - so used to roleplaying on the screen that when it goes down differently in real life, they look to reboot the system and sit around scratching their arses when they can't find the button?

Thoughts welcome....

Remember APEC?

After reports showed an RCMP Sgt giving 2 seconds of warning before spraying toxic chemicals on reporters and protesters, the consenus held that Hugh Stewart would go to jail for Assault. In fact, at the Hughes Commission whitewash, use of pepper spray was condoned, based on orders Stewart received from Inspector Bill Dingwall. Dingwall was found to have violated 2 Charter rights, but was allowed to have acted based on "necessity." Hughes abridged consideration of the fact that on Sept. 11, 1999, Dingwall admitted during Commission hearings - under the cross examination of Joseph Arvay - to having falsified a report, as to the pepper spray order. Dingwall told the Commission that he falsely wrote that protesters were blocking a roadway (videorecords revealed that to be a lie). In fact, when Arvay asked him if he "lied," Dingwall replied, "yes."

Far from being punished, the APEC lawsuit against Dingwall et al sits unprocessed in the Supreme Court Registry. After the hearings, Dingwall was appointed as Commander of the Maple Ridge RCMP detachment. He left there in 2002, to - and this is ironic - run RCMP complaint service out of E-Division. Having been both the cause and subject of a mega million dollar Public Complaints Commission complaint, he was put in charge of handling complaints reviewed by the Commission. He is now an Brigadier, and one of the highest ranking RCMP officials in BC. I believe he is number 3. Frankly, I believe he is guilty of scores of Assaults, Common Assault, Aggravated Assault, Obstruction of Justice (falsifying a statutory declaration), Breach of Trust, etc.

The airport cops know well that APEC complaints were sandbagged. They expect the same. Oppal is sufficiently arrogant to ignore the fact that Youtube view of the video atrocity will probably top a million this weekend. And every language group in Europe has its own Youtube. If we want to hold the Olympics, then our fascist leadership had better start respecting rights.

re Cops

My early teens were spent in the days of Walter Mulligan as police chief, bottle clubs, street gangs, hired "corespondents" in divorce cases, and so on. Vancouver police were considered no more corrupt than those of any other large city. I do not think that in those days, the ordinary person would have even considered displaying the hostility and disrespect to the police that I've seen on this thread, as well as personally in various incidents I've witnessed in recent years.

In my late teens we moved to a small town in the interior, and I was immediately shocked to find RCMP officers being friendly and joking with with eveyone, from kids to adults. With the exception of the occasional power-tripping jerk, almost all the RCMP I have known or observed (for some 60 years) have been fair-minded, and liked and likeable when found in the small town milieu, although in the case of aboriginal militancy, in some places that seems to be changing.

It seems to me that if we expect an officer to risk his/her life to protect ours, we should be more willing to offer her/him some respect. How come we're so ready to lynch the four officers above, who, given their age, may have erred through inexperience, yet we'll go to any extremes to protect some proven worthless piece-of-shit criminal?? Why should we wish an authoritarian intepretation of the law upon the officers, yet the most liberal possible for the criminal?

It seems to me that the more disrespectful of the law and the peace officer we become, the more unlawful our society becomes. We have to remember that the man on the beat did not make the laws, and did not put the corrupt politicians in place - we did. In the end, we cannot do without the cop. It's time we recognised that.

Respect is

deserved when earned. As long as the RCMP allows their members to murder the very people they are supposed to protect they deserve no respect. They allow the cop that executed Ian Bush to continue on as an ooficer even after it was shown in the inquest that there was no way their story held up. The blood spatter expert basically said the cop executed him from behind. They all are a guilty of harboring a murderer in that case. Until they can bring their own gang to justice they are no better than anyother criminal organization

nationality

There is another thing which really bothers me about the whole thing; it is that the citizens of Eastern Europe are still treated with less respect than the citizens of Western Europe. If Mr. Dziekanski was German not Polish I don't think he would have been treated the same way.

It isn't just taser use needs a review

The concept of the police as a paramilitary, or quasi-military force is an anachronism in the modern state.

Not only do the police need to be brought immediately under independent civilian oversight, the fundamental organization of the justice system must be analyzed and brought up to date with modern realities.

This case will fall under federal jurisdiction and be run off the side of Stockwell Day's desk; had the incident occurred in downtown Vancouver the city would be responsible for oversight and eventually Dirk Ryneveld's Office would have come into play; in other parts of the province the RCMP would again have been involved.

This is absurd.

The police ought, all of them, to be answerable to the same authority and that authority ought to be separated from the political realm entirely.

There is simply no excuse for continuing as we have been. It is unfair to citizens in general, it makes for costly inefficiencies, and it is unfair to the police themselves.

One other thing: I believe it is long past time that the police stopped making public PR statements. Their response should be written and anonymous.

How can anyone now respect anything that Officer Lemaitre says from this time forward? He did precisely the same thing in his public statements in conjunction with the Bush inquiry.

This is not what justice and the law ought to be all about. Get the PR officers back out in the field - they all seem to be much more experienced than the recruits who are getting themselves and others killed across this country on an almost weekly basis.

Instead of polishing their image - these guys should be out doing real police work.

Otherwise, they should retire and go into real estate or advertising.

Their hearts clearly aren't in the policing business any more.

That’s my view, and I think respect is a two way street – when (and where) the police show respect for the community in which they work (that’s right ‘work’ not serve) there is plenty of ‘respect’ for them.

Keep the Heat on...

G West wisely said:

Here-here G. These are HUMAN BEINGS being
responsible to HUMAN BEINGS. These cops cannot be exempt from the universal moral and ethical laws we are ALL responsible to. They murdered, (albeit 2nd degree), this man, and that is a fact. Like Bush, this should not be covered up by the Ol' Boyz in Blue Club, but indeed exposed for the heart wrenching sadness, and deep National embarrassment that it has caused... Keep the heat ON!!!!

Peace,

Bear

G West, I have a question for you.

G West you said,

Basically, this same topic, I was discussing last evening. I felt the same as you. This tragic event occurred in a Federal jurisdiction. The following comment was made to me. This problem may also fall onto Richmond, as Sea Island is a part of Richmond. Additionally, those RCMP, at The Vancouver International Airport, are based at the Richmond detachment. In other words, their Richmond cops. What I'm asking, you stated (in other parts of the province the RCMP would again have been involved.)If, these were Richmond cops, isn't it incumbent upon Richmond to get directly involved in this case?

woody

I think the Richmond detachment handles the policing of YVR but since YVR is a Federal jurisdiction - as an international airport - I don't think Richmond municipality has any authority over operational matters.

My reference to other parts of the province (where provincial or municipal jurisdictions have seconded their policing to the RCMP) was just meant to further illustrate how complicated the administration of justice actually is in this province. I could have added a further complication because the RCMP acts as the 'federal' police force in other matters under the 'federal' authority like the APEC cock-up for example and in any area where the Federal Crown is involved.

It is a jurisdictional dog's breakfast and it's hopelessly complicated and convoluted and costly when anything goes wrong.

That's one of the reasons so many mayors and councils are pushing the province to rationalize the system in all sorts of areas where problems arise - from jurisdictional overlaps to communications failures to drug trafficking and organized crime investigations.

BC Police in Turmoil Over 2010

Considering that law enforcement has been turned upside down in BC as a result of 2010, it's not surprising incidents like this occur.

As soon as we won the bid police went into overdrive to clean up the province. One of the first steps was to shut down Da Kine, and then grow-ops, which directly affected gangs and lead to more violence in our streets.

When you poke a sharp stick into a hornet's nest it riles the hive.

It's not a coincidence that Chief Jamie Graham quit as 2010 approaches. He saw this chaos coming.

Here's an excerpt about policing in an Olympics region from my book, Leverage Olympic Momentum;

"I can guarantee that the millisecond the Bid is won every police chief in his or her respective Olympic region has a mini stroke.

Policing an Olympic spectacle will shorten anyone’s life. Considering the terrorist threat, and that a police chief will have to relinquish power to outside military and federal forces, the strain on a human is incomprehensible.

Police chiefs of large cities are characteristically power mongers. They have to be in order to survive. Control is power, and power to a police chief translates into peace within their community.

Every leader knows that in order to perform properly a person has to take ownership of a situation. This same edict applies to police chiefs. They also have to take ownership, and to take ownership means it is their territory and they call the shots. Sharing the responsibility means opening the community up to other policing leaders who might not agree with how the local chief wants to run things. (hjl25)"

You can read more here if you like;

It was only last August, and under mysterious circumstances that VANOC terminated their relationship with their RCMP security chief. It adds another level of complexity to the scene in Vancouver:

Just imagine the tension right now between local law enforcement, Canadian military leaders, and VANOC. A few weeks ago they went on record to assure us that there was not a problem and that all forces concerned were cooperating with each other. We'll see ...

Thanks G West, my next question.

In regards to those Mounties who are implicated in this tragic event. They are assigned and under contract to the City of Richmond, correct? Are these RCMP, if not directly, but indirectly, employees of Richmond? By this association, could this not put Richmond in line, to being Sued by Robert Dziekanskis mother, for the loss of her son?
Further to your comments in regards to the RCMP PR officer. I doubt we will see any more of them, they have pretty well lost all their credibility, this time around.

Good question

If I were advising the family, I'd suggest that everyone with an iron in this fire ought to be named.

However, on balance, I think the RCMP, corporately, and YVR are the most likely targets for a successful civil suit.

I think it will be awfully hard for YVR to avoid a finding of negligence and that they will be held responsible for damages. In the end, you can be sure that any such finding will eventully entail that the public (as taxpayers) will finally pay the price for these peoples' mistakes and negligence.

That's probably as it should be. The question, as Mrs Dziekanski's lawyer pointed out, is really, in the end, will anything change.

I think it is long past time for the PUBLIC to demand that it does.

And, this doesn't require the appointment of another elite commission of inquiry either. That's Mr Harper's preferred method of putting off the hard decisions that he was elected to make.

It's a cop-out if that's what he has Stockwell Day do; in my opinion Harper doesn't really understand the principles and the operation of representative democracy. To great and increasing cost for the Canadian people and the future.

BC/Canada's Olympian-sized International Hall of Shame

You cannot isolate this tragic incident from what is happening in this province and in this country.

It's a symptom of the ruthless turning "upside down " of things that Working Memory alludes to. The loss of all meaningful humanity. The old poetic "the center cannot hold" - less poetically, we are in deep, deep doo-doo.

Under corporatism/fascism human beings become merely obstacles to be moved out of the way. An upset man in an airport, the homeless on our streets, the dire level of child poverty that is constantly ignored in this province.

Instead we hear the mad brooms of corporatism whisking away (talk about excitable delirium), attempting to make "all that disturbs" invisible: "Clean it up, sweep it under the rug like annoying dirt on a floor" ....then deny, deny, stall, stall, ignore, ignore, hide it in a small item on page 24 of one of our lamestream newspapers.

But make it look good. From the outside at least. Ya know, package, PR appeal.

Just "Bring in the cleaners" (in old but apt mafiosa terminology) that will will help mask/bury corporate government's real agenda - whether they, the cleaners, the facilitators.... be law enforcement, our media, our courts....basically all those who willingly.... and without much moral or independent thought carry out orders made specifically to betray our human rights. Made to prevent access to vital information. Made, in the end, to silence all opposition.

The taser is a lethal weapon. It can kill under a number of conditions and as we see through our tears for Mr. Dziekanski, it cruelly and heartlessly does. But I don't think it was ever really brought into being to subdue the real dangerous criminals. It was brought into being to subdue us.... when we protest a little too much, when we question authority, when we challenge the new reality of these new governments.

It should be banned.

Like others here, I say thank god for this video....and as others have suggested as well - there is much that needs filming in this province. Film it and bring it to light.

The damage to Canada's reputation is insurmountable

On account of those four imbeciles. Canada reputation is at it lowest ebb. In the eyes of the world were goons. While searching out comments and opinions from different sites I came across a site, which I never knew existed, until a few minutes back.

http://www.notcanada.com/

The Police Act (BC) frames

The Police Act (BC) frames the powers and obligations of any cop working in BC. However, enforcement of conduct complaints where jurisdiction is federal, is through the RCMP-Public Complaints Commission. Conduct investigations are carried out by RCMP-E Division, Vancouver.

Any person employed in a federally regulated business, is - unlike provincial employees - protected from wrongful dismissal, and may be ordered reistated by the National Labour Relations Board. Bank employees are surprised to learn that they have a job for life, unless economics are unfavourable or they give valid cause for dismissal.

Origin of the Taser lynn

This description of the origin of the taser is from The Early History of “Non-Lethal” Weapons, by Neil Davison, December 2006, of the University of Bradford in the UK.

Page 11 excerpt

"Electrical-shock weapons have their roots not in policing or riot control but in farming and torture.

In Argentina the barbed cattle prod was replaced with an electrical version, the picana electrica, in the 1930’s. As Rejali observes, “the picana electrica combines portability, flexibility and low amperage.

It is also cheap. In this sense, it qualifies as the first electric stun technology…”103 It was soon adopted by the Argentinean police as a torture device for use during interrogation:

The device must deliver the “maximal amount of shock and pain” to stun the victim without killing and, in addition, the weapon should be portable.

His examination of the US patent record illustrates the close connection
between the development of electrical weapons for use against animals,
which had been patented from the early 1900’s onwards, and those for use against humans: ..."

Militarily & Historically speaking

In past recent Olympics regions, when local law enforcement agencies demonstrate poor judgement, or indicate they cannot handle a situation in a professional timely manner, the military steps in and governs under military/martial law.

There is no negotiation or discussion. It just happens when the federal government feels that local agencies might do something to embarrass the country.

excerpt from Leverage Olympic Momentum:

"When the Olympic Bid is won a chain reaction law enforcement strategy is automatically engaged. It affects everyone including politicians and the public. Decisions are made that will change how residents of a community regard the world.

As the Games draw near, your happy, laid-back community will slowly turn into a pseudo-military zone. You might not notice it at first, but shortly after winning the Bid, police forces will divide and separate the criminal hot zones in your community.

The first thing to change will be the most visible sore spots. Neighborhoods that have the greatest potential to catch the eye of unaccredited media will be cleansed and prepped for gentrification.

The first things to go are low-income hotels. It started as early as 2005 in Vancouver. Olympic organizations have been doing this for decades ...

... It’s oppressive, but most low and mid-level criminal activity grinds to a halt. You can guarantee that if you are in a downtown core and near any type of Olympic village, venue, or traffic route you will be under constant electronic surveillance.

A large group of protection and security organizations are patched together and expected to perform seamlessly. Many times it becomes a confusing egotistical quagmire of police chiefs, military leaders, and under-skilled private security companies fighting each other behind the scenes for control.

In a crisis, it is always the highly skilled military that controls the flag."

end of excerpt

Shortly after the bid is won the entire law enforcement network, locally and nationally, go into on-the-job Olympic training mode.

Everything they do is planned and studied respective of how their operations and skills will transpose to an Olympics scenario.

Police become hyper-sensitive.

Tin medals

Interesting stuff, Working Memory.

....it's all about taming the wild - whether it be poor beast or human animal who dares to challenge authority - control under the threat of torture.

I thought this was most interesting:

And thus the assumption is, "high level" criminal activity is allowed to grind on? 'Course it's being protected isn't it? And protected "at high levels"in "high places." After all, it runs the system....and thus a necessity.

That's where "the cattle prods"/tasers and their all-too-willing functionaries come in, right? Behave or else...all in the name of "prepping and cleansing for gentrification."

Where is the honour or humanity in any of this? It is simply insane.

Thank you madame zanzibar

Paul Pritchard does deserve credit; had he not photgraphed this incident and had the chutzpah to fight to get his property back in order to provide the public with the truth - rather than Officer Lemaitre's exculpatory 'version' of the truth - this incident would simply have been swept under the carpet.

Sadly, the other eye-witnesses who spoke out at the time were not able to provide the evidence that Mr Pritchard did about how far from reality the 'offical' version actually was. They deserve credit for speaking out as well.

I'm willing to acknowledge the fact that the individuals involved are suffering but I'll simply say - rightly so. That they still have jobs at all is a mystery to me.

Another real result of all this is a serious case of non-confidence in the actions of the RCMP and the subsequent statements from spokespersons for them.

We've been suspicious of the RCMP for years - this case provides a lot of evidence that those suspicions may have been well-founded.