You're empirical answer is high fees Cappy?

Let me get this straight. UBC was crumbling by you're standards... YOUR standards back in '92, and you believe that instead of government taxes being poured into "crumbling UBC", they should go private and milk Canadians for post secondary, make it a prestige institution affordable only to well off parents, is this what you are saying?

UBC teachers are for shit Cap, is that about the size of it in your view?

There is no such thing as "equal opportunity" for you, is there... if I can extrapolate, your religion is "you're either born into it, or you're born into it. Smart or dumb, you should be doctor or dig ditches... just like your father."

Capitalism... you're just to much.

agreed

I've got to echo the Brain's post here cappy. First you state that people can start working right out of high school. I think that no one would argue that point. Then you state that to take it further then one must invest in a university degree.

First, a high school diploma and even a BA for that matter doesn't get you very far today. What you're effectively saying is that if you cannot afford university then you must resign yourself to the shite jobs one gets without an advanced degree (I'm purposely leaving out trade tickets here). Time and again you've promoted the capitalist notion that everyone has the same opportunities and that one's life is of one's own making. However, you'd like to see a system that promotes inequality by making access to university harder for a large segment of the population. What will it be cappy?

Furthermore, an undergraduate degree does not pay off in 5 years dude. If tuition were to rise with inflation, it would require students to take on loans that would be virtually impossible to pay off in a reasonable time frame (certainly not 5 years).

I got to say, after over a year of posting on the tyee, your analysis of things isn't getting any smarter.

ubi/brain

well brain/ubi:

either way, we pay. we pay in the form of higher taxes. however, why should people who don't invest in a University education foot the bill for those that do? University grads, unless the really up, never live in poverty. In fact, the wealthiest have degrees, the poorest don't.

most students need to take out loans. 5K x 4 years = $20,000. Add living expenses of $15,000 (for single 20 years olds)/year. we are talking about an 80K investment over 4 years. 20K/year! I used to tend bar in the school year (2 nights a week) and I had a job that would pay me 6-10K over the summer. I pretty much came out flat, though my dad supported my some.

It is doable, but it requires sacrifices. It is a good life lesson. If you want to have your cake and eat it too, provided you subsidize yourself to some degree, you'll come out with 20-30K in debt - MAX. This is the most I've really ever heard of.

Well, that is the price of a car! What investment do you think is more valuable???

You are talking to a guy who went through this. In 1992, tuition wasn't frozen, I think it was 1,800 or something. Adjusted for today, that is nearly 3-4K.

I am not some guy here that woke up one day with a million bucks and a university degree. C'mon guys, if you have the ability to get into University and get through your classes, do you really need handouts???

Pull up your socks and work! This is typical leftie blabber. Resources are going to those who need it least...

Post secondary ed

Our whole post secondary education system is falling apart, not just our universities. This bunch of bandits in Victoria should have their feet held to the fire but I won't hold my breath in seeing that. In the last 2 years 280 out of 500 or so post secondary colleges and institutions in BC have had their doors closed or operations suspended. What a great legacy for our bandits in Victoria. Then we have our big construction companies screaming for an educated work force and going off-shore to find them. Right now there is estimated to be between 38,000 and 42,000 quest workers in BC; and they really don't have an an accurate number, and they want to bring in another 20,000 by 2010. The Federal Government just relaxed the laws a couple of weeks ago to make it easier to bring in more workers. Our Governments are more concerned in bringing in guest workers than educating our own young people. If you're not outraged the it's obvious that you haven't been paying attention.

anecdotal

I knew that you would come back with anecdotal evidence to support your arguments. This is typical righty blabber. I too went through the university system with student loans and if not for a drunk driver who rear ended me a few years back, I'd probably still be paying them off. I can guaranf**kentee that I didn’t work any less hard than you cappy so you can put your own sock in it.

Furthermore, you assert yourself by stating “why should people who don't invest in a University education foot the bill for those that do?” Do you really want to go down this weak line of reasoning? You do? Ok then. Why should people who don’t care for the olympics or who don’t spend weekends at Whistler foot the bill for those red herrings? Isn’t a public investment in post-secondary education benefitial for the economy cappy? You’d think that individuals such as yourself would support universality: The rich have university degrees – your claim by the way. If such is the case, then lets support subsidized university education. Man, are you ever full of contradictions.

The problem of universities

The problem with universities in BC is that they want:

1) to be all things to all people.
2) to corner the market on higher education.

For many a degree is a prestige thing. One wonders with nurses now having to have degrees in Nursing, do we get better nursing than 30 years ago?

Universities once were the halloed halls of higher learning in the abstract arts, not now. Now it's a gotcha, no university, no good job; what a perfect way to discriminate.

I have been always appalled at the lack of knowledge of transit planners and engineers about 'rail' transit. not many know what a track gauge is nor what interlocking signaling is. Yet they go on an plan for grant public transit schemes based more on whim, than need.

cappy as usual - you haven't got a clue

Here is the actual comparative data:
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060901/d060901a.htm
And, if you think that a professional degree - which is what you need for the kind of golden future you're talking about - is going to set a student back only 30k in debt - you really are from another planet. You can't even get an arts degree for that and, if you have a family....well, the normally intelligent person (among whom I count most p/secondary students) would straighten you out very quickly.

Try 100k for a professional ticket – doctor, lawyer, masters in engineering, dentist etc.

Universities

Tuition is already highly subsidized Ubi. Yes, society benefits from an educated workforce.

However, unlike a road system, where everybody benefits equally, receipients of degrees benefit the most. Isn't fair that they share the cost?

Like I said, unlike G West, I came from a middle class family and went to public school in Burnaby. G went to one of those swanky private schools on the Island. I paid my way through University, and really didn't even struggle too much. I had 15 hrs a week of class, maybe another 10 of studying and a couple of part time jobs.

I wasn't trying to raise a family, and I lived in a student dump! It was great!! If only life were as easy now, as it was back then. $5-$7K per year, for an investment which will last a lifetime, and access to world class facilities - is hardly unfair.

Sorry Ubi - you are off the mark on this one my friend.

G

That is what I was saying - undergrad is 30K at most.

You are right there. Though, they get paid back in full. Dentists are the highest paid professionals, Accountants are 2nd. That 100K is a real investment though.

PS - G

I know plenty of lawyers and dr's - none of them seem to be in debt in their 30's. In fact, most of them live quite comfortably. Don't you worry about them Mr. West.

Further, most don't seem to ever complain about the fees they once had to pay. In fact, I'm willing to bet most support the tuition law/med school students have to pay! Why? Because they had to pay the fees too - ended up ay okay, and have the same mentality as me as it pertains to this matter....

cappy

I don't think that I'm off the mark at all. I'll give you my own story. I graduated UBC a few years after you did. If i remember correctly, I paid $2400 my last year. I also paid $400/month for rent (that's $3200 for the 8 months of school). Plus, a monthly bus pass set me back about $450 dollars (no upass at the time unfortunately). Plus my share of the utilities where I lived probably set me back another $50/month. So in fixed costs, that's $6450 for the school year. Subtract that from the $8000 that I got in loans, that's not a lot left over. So I too had to get a part time job: waiting tables 3 nights a weeks. Anyway, I’m not really making a point here, I’m just saying that your story is similar to mine – except I had no help from parents. Anyway, I agree, it was doable at the time and I busted my ass and did it. However, by the time I was done, I had about $30000 in student loans (I had to do a summer term) and I had a BA and I was 23. I landed a job that paid marginally more that minimum wage from which I had to make my monthly loan payments and at the end of the day, I was piss poor.

So there, I too have a story to tell from which I could draw the conclusion that if university was a bit more affordable, perhaps I would have had as much as a student loan to pay back. Perhaps with that money, I could have been re-investing (your favourite pastime no?) My point is I guess, is that if you place so much importance in the economy and in economic growth then does it not stand to reason that, as a society, we should not invest in the future? I believe that part of that investment includes education and that it should not stop at high school. I think that that my comparison was fair (and you misrepresented it). The gov’t is using tax dollars for a benefit that doesn’t reach all of society (i.e. the Olympics – I lump in the road to whistler). The olymipics are not really a benefit despite all the talk about Olympic legacies (this debate has had its place here before). Education, by making it more expensive, quickly moves beyond the reach of those who may wish to further their academic pursuits. You state that people who choose not to go to university should not help pay for it. But if we could agree that post-secondary education benefits society as a whole, can we not classify university as a public good? The Olympics, on the other hand, are a private celebration, but they are treated as a public good. So, does this really seem fair?

And finally, don’t say that I’m off the mark cappy. Your first post discusses the decrepit state of the university when you attended but then you claim that you had access to “world class facilities”. Again, which is it?

IF you can get in

Some of the above arguments/ comments may be moot to an extent as there may be an underlying assumption that the "average Joe" can even get into UBC in the first place.

Mr. Campbell pledged the creation of 25,000 new university spaces in BC. One only has to visit the web sites of several offshore schools that are accredited to award the BC high school diploma (Dogwood) to figure out who is/ will be taking the majority of those seats. I believe foreign students pay twelve thousand or so dollars a year to UBC. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but it is significantly higher than what a domestic student pays.

Considering that universities have become more of a "business" than a learning institution, hard work and the desire to advance oneself, per se, are not sufficient to even procure a seat. BC is open for business and money talks. Very sad, really.

Ubi

Have you been to UBC recently?? A much different place than it was in 1995 - or whenever you graduated. That's because students are starting to pay their own bill!!

Today it is a world class facility - it wasn't 15 years ago....

this is your analysis?

Pretty poor analysis for someone who prides himself on his economics background. The contribution of student fees to revenues in the last 10 years has risen only 9% - not that significant. There are other factors at play cappy, or what someone with a background in research would call alternative hypotheses. While UBC has invested more in capital assets, they're also drawing a lot more money from their endowment funds (in fact, 10 years ago UBC was contributing to the endownment, now they are drawing from it). I know that you shy away from specifics but be very careful in your generalizations.

Nice backpeddling by the way!

Cappy and ubi

Cap, on the basis of your own point, ubi's right.

If education does not benefit the public and people have to "pay their own way" unlike when you and ubi went to school then ubi's counter-argument that the Olympics and a nice new road to the Whistler playground also shouldn't be borne by the taxpayer. Only those who want or need them should be ponying up the dollars.

Personally I think public universities and subsidized education are of far greater benefit to our society than the Olympics and the Sea-to-Sky but your opinion may differ.

cappy - you can't read.

cappy - your figures - especially the adjusted to constant dollars claim - were just laughable. Have a look at the inflation factor for fees and compare that with, say, the increase in the size of the minimum wage over the same period.

As usual you think you only think know what you're talking about and you can't read. I said, quite plainly, that your 30K figure was wrong. Read what I posted again.

What you posted then was almost as funny as this:

and it really is funny! Martha piper turned UBC into a commercial crap factory - I'm surprised if there's a building out there built in the last 10 years that isn't a pander to some hidebound commercial interest.

World class advertising is all. And you might want to check the quality of intellect that Campbell has been appointing to the Boards of the public universities since 2001. Quite a rogues’ gallery; wonderful intellectual avatars – have a look sometime!

Education is an exceptional investment

The cost of education should be indexed to an individual's (including family support) ability to pay. That way people from poor backgrounds can afford even the most gold plated forms of higher education, should they so choose, along with being able to demonstrate the intellectual capacity to handle it. It is criminal that only those from wealthy backgrounds can afford a professional education, particularly in the area of medicine or the law. It encourages class stratification and elitism, and introduces a shortage of labor in an area that is of vital public need.

Education is of immense economic benefit to a society. Neglecting it, or worse, making it the domain of the rich will erode the ability of that society to progress in practically every area.

James - give it up

Stop being ridiculous. Should a house in West Vancouver cost 300K for a family making $60K - versus $1.5 million for a family making $1 million.

You are 18 years old (or an adult) when it is time to go to University or College. You want to be treated like an adult - act like one. Pay your bills and take care of yourself.

University is not an entitlement, it is a priveledge and a responsibility. Not everybody can get into UBC or SFU - because it is not an entitlement. You have to EARN your way in....

Again, this is coming from a guy that paid his own way through school - with minimal assistance from my dad. I'm not some guy like G West, who had it handed to me, and sits here telling people to carry their weight...

People can't afford to go to school - I don't believe it. I knew plenty of kids, starting off at Andersen, from East Vancouver. Their parents had little, yet they made it through. There is a can't do attitute which people like you, James Burnes, sport in this province - and it bothers us, in society, that bust our balls, have overcome obstacles and been very successful in this world. Especially, when I hear guys like Ubi and G grilling me for being selfish.

Take a loan, invest in your future, be responsible and pay it back. PUT YOUR HAND BACK IN YOUR POCKET. If you are able to go to school, you are able to take care of yourself....

I'M sorry, but the culture of entitlement amoung you lefties is intolerable. You really make me sick sometimes.

I'll second that, James

Its high time we agreed on something.

Prestigious universities reek of one thing. Large tuition fee's and PRESTIGE!!! And guess what... these same "prestigious" institutions aren't much better than others when you shop and compare.

If I want to major in phyc, its U of Cal. If I want business, its Yale. Law, its Harvard. Trades, pick 'em. Medicine, again, pick 'em. Communications, education, engineering, trades, you name it, some universities (and colleges) simply outclass others and its not about the money the way cappy thinks. Its about the reputation of their administration and the programs they run.

What cappy doesn't realize is that each province has a duty, a government duty to the public to secure its own tax base. This is why investment into education is so important. Its not just 1 to 8 years of spinoff revenue these colleges and universities generate to the surrounding communities. Its the reality that trades and post secondary encourages natives of provinces to stay within their own provinces! And if they work elsewhere and pay their taxes at home, where do they pay their taxes? In the tax coffers of the provinces they come from!!! Unless they move of course, because they have to, to get a degree, or find that girl or boy from the "province over", or permanent job that just "landed on their doorstep" and then its goodbye born native to the province and hello, shrinking tax base.

Guys like cappy talk about private investment, foreign students... what he doesn't realize, is that foriegn students aren't subsidized. They've chosen to be there because of the programs and administration of those programs have to offer.

Do people like Cappy believe that the average middle class income family can put their kids through this kind of post secondary?

Without public subsidies, alot of smart individuals simply wouldn't be able to afford to go, its really like that. Who is interested in going into debt 25 grand a year for a 4 year degree in social working that pays you $35 G's when you get out? Who wants to rack up 125 grand of student loan debt to begin professional union salaries that start in their 40's like teaching? People like that will never get ahead. Poli Sci, BA's, what is Cappy thinking to say that universities in this province should be pay as you go?

Sure the government would save money... for a few years. And then the worm turns and its a big drain. The people of this province would become less educated, earn less, pay less in taxes, need to source out more jobs, and guess what... its already happening under Campbell in a big way. Its happening large in trades, and the colleges and secondary isn't encouraging considering Campbells budgetary numbers.

I'm having a hard time trying to find myself being nice to a guy like Cappy who over and over again, says things that make no sense whatsoever. Can't think past the present, everything is in the now.

Cappy's too much sometimes. He reminds me of someone in government who will end road maintenance spending to watch the highways go to hell in 2 terms, only to blame the condition of the highways on leftist governments who can't manage assets and because they are run into the ground, the solution is privatized highways and tolls wherever you go... and that makes no sense to those living here... except foreign investors like Bush and Co and governments like Campbells who are on the take. Its getting drull to have to repeat myself to someone who continually doesn't get it like Capitalism.

Education or Endoctrination

If you want an education you can get one for free at the library. If you want to be credentialized so that you can get a high paying job in the priesthood of aristocracy then you have to shell out the money. The degree isn't so much to indicate that you have competent knowledge, since the half life is getting so short that most of that will be obsolete within a few years of graduation, but rather to simplify the hiring process and to provide some ensurance to the employer that you can endure at least four years of bullshit without quitting.

Backing off a bit from that extreme position I will acknowledge that there are minimum requirements for most professions. However, it isn't intelligence, competence or knowledge that is the limiting factor, but rather maintaining a scarcity so as to keep the wages high, particularly in the professions of law and medicine. Ask yourself how come a tiny country like Cuba can educate tens of thousands of competent doctors, and yet North America is plagued with malpractice suits. Or how come almost every lawyer that is admitted to law school graduates.

Personally I think that if you want to go through the McJob Factory you should have to pay full cost since you are buying an investment, however if you are taking a liberal arts program for the betterment of society then that should be like a job, with free tuition and a "salary" of ten grand a year, and if you can't maintain a B average you're fired. Required courses would include critical thinking, history, and how to do independent research. Also, that any knowledge produced in a university should belong to the public domain, and that corporations shouldn't be allowed to have patents on this knowledge; which is how it used to be just a few decades ago before the learning institutions were usurped by big business.

I think another alternative that should be investigated is reinstating the guild system upgraded to our modern requirements.

Steve Jobs' Commencement address (2005) given at Stanford where he extols the virtues of being a university drop-out is a contrary opinion to the norm.

Cappy ... what a shock!

Sorry to bring the conversation down to a Reality Show ... but I just had a shock.

I did the math. Cappy says he got his B.A. in 1992.

Let's say he graduated at age 25.

So that was 15 years ago.

Therefore 15 + 25 = Good grief! ... these mean speeches haven't been coming from a mean, narrow, embittered old man after all.

It's shocking that a 40-year-old man in the prime of his comfortable life, can have so little sympathy or understanding of the other people in his world.

Ireland

Tuition for university in Ireland was discontinued in the 90's. Now Ireland has an educated work force, one of the most vibrant economies and major industrial expansion because they have an educated work force. There are also a large number of patents being granted in that country due to the educated work force.

And transfer payments

And let's remember that it was money transfers from the EU that also helped Ireland. Something the Irish themselves corrected Michael Campbell on a decade or so ago. (One of Mike's many rants that sound good when there's no one there to challenge him)

Perhaps the Maritimes should have used equalization money for things like free tuition instead of handouts to companies like Irving and fish canneries.

Nothing Occurs in Isolation

Cappy is doing the typical thing that these apologists for the corporate state always do. By this I mean viewing everything in isolation. "How does someone else's education benefit me?" he asks so naively. If he can't figure that one out, I am not going to explain it to him.

Silly us

And add to North of Hope's comment the same applies for the scandinavian countries too. The 5 scandinavian countries are in the top 10 in the world to do buisness, Last I heard about Canada it's #16 and falling. Right now we are doing quite well economically because china is buying up our raw resourses but when that ends we're in deep ca-ca. The only way we can offset that day is to educate our work force and now while it's good. Canada is known as a crummy place to do business. The Europeans giggle at us because we have all this natural wealth and we give it away.

thanks for that....

To ov:

Thanks for that link to Steve Jobs Commencement Address(2005). It is absolutely one of the best things I have read for a long time.

The "less sure about everything" periods of one's life, in retrospect, are often such a real gift.

I think another alternative that should be investigated is reinstating the guild system upgraded to our modern requirements.

Your insightful thoughts quoted above are right on as well.

Education at the Library

I agree that you can get a good education at the library. In fact, university temporarily destroyed my love of reading. Too many readings were assigned, and I could not keep up, so really, I read just enough to get me through the courses with the marks that I wanted. You gotta love the profs who assigned tons of work, and then complain that the class is not keeping up to the readings.

However, education is and should be a social process that encourages face-to-face interaction. Although we like to criticize the idealism of youth, it is nice to have institutions where young people can get together and explore ideas. It sure beats having them take up arms against each other, or spending their lives in villages worrying about violence.

Libraries simply cannot provide the face-to-face interaction and social part of learning. Post-secondary education is not for everyone, but everyone should have the opportunity to attend if they are willing to make some sacrifices in personal time and finances. However, the financial barriers cannot be too much so that those who are not born into or with financial means may be the only ones who may not attend.

Capitalism: Quote:In 1992,

Capitalism:

I assume you mean 1800$ per year, right? Tuition for science and engineering programs at UBC nowadays is over 5500$ per year. The cost of living (at least off-campus) has also gone up faster than inflation in the lower mainland since 1992. The typical student bears far more of the cost of their post-secondary education now than you did.

Looks like you got an easy ride compared to today's students. And not everyone can ask daddy for money, either.

Why go there then?

"I went to UBC in the days of cheap tuition. Back then, and it wasn't that long ago (graduated in 1992), they were giving an education away. Though, you could see signs the University was crumbling."

Why go there then? If UBC was really that bad, crappy buildings and bad profs, there are lots of other universities and colleges in North America. I went to SFU from 89 to 93 and found it a pretty good university. The Americans that I met who went to school at SFU told me they decided to go there because of the high academic standards; very different than many American institutions I was told. Later, when I attended UBC, I didn't think it was as bad as Capitalism contends.

If you really think that there are no benefits to providing a highly subsidized education to the population, then you should be calling for tuition rates of $20,000 or more. It would certainly make it much more difficult for UBC to fill all their spaces. But in a truly capitalist, machiavellian sense, why should my taxes help someone else's kid go to school? I would guess that is what Capitalism's message is really all about.

Cappy cracks me up..

How is it possible we've allowed tuition fees to rise in the information age of all times in history? This is typical of Canada eating its own young. It's almost satirical how we sabotage our own success..Consider the following:

We produce fewer PHD's than the average in the OECD and near the bottom of producing graduates in science and engineering. And among the lowest in R&d spending.

Other countries have surpassed us in international competetivness and of course, they have lower tuition fees that we do.

Cappy says that an education benefits only the holder of the diploma. This is wrong! An educated person participates in politics more often, more likely to volunteer in the community, is less likely to break the law[some thing for all you reformatories] and earn up to $1 million dollars more over a life time.

I suspect this is why Prime Minister Da'quino and his lackeys in the conservoliberal party of canada wanted to assult post secondary education: less political activism to oppose the deep intergration and more lawbreakers to build more jails.

Futhermore, an education is more than getting a job. Its about education oneself about the world around you and gaining an understanding about yourself at the same time. Thomas Jefferson never gave out diplomas at the University of Virgina because he thought them to be frivilous and unecessary BTW.

Free tuition for all!

cappy

I left this conversation yesterday when you posted this little nugget above here Cap.

I see you've been well and truly handed your ass since then so I'll just add one more small but important point.

I'll acknowledge that lefties believe in a culture of entitlement (even thought I'd tend to put it a little differently - that is, in terms of true equality of opportunity, but I digress) the same day you give up the special tax breaks for corporate earnings, a 50% tax holiday for capital gains, deferments, travel and entertainment deductibility and accelerated depreciation of capital assets along with the many other entitlements too numerous to mention but not, of course excluding: interest-free loans, property tax giveaways and royalty rates which amount to theft – all of which are keeping the share of the economic pie in the hands of the truly entitled growing while the rest of our society squabbles over the leavings.

Game, set and match old buddy! You definitely should feel sick about the program you’re a part of. World-class – nope. Classy – not at all. Crooked and dishonest – you better believe it.

More for your list, G. West,

I would add to that, limited liability, the corporation as fictitious person, patent law, eminent domain, state-sponsored R and D, banking laws that create a monopoly, plus the resulting government debt scam, and the billions of dollars and millions of acres of land given freely or at extremely reduced cost to the corporations. Then I could add the laws which restrict the rights of workers to organize and the use of the courts and police through injunctions as a goon squad for the corporations. All of these are state-granted "entitlements" for the corporate system. Take these out of the picture and you would have a very egalitarian society and most of the entitlements that Cappy and his Corporate Statist pals whine about would be unnecessary. Two things to remember 1. Corporate capitalism is a creature of government 2. Social democracy was the compromise reached in order to keep corporate capitalism at a time when workers and farmers movements were serious about abolishing it.

excellent coda anarcho

Sometimes it's too bad Capitalism doesn't stick around till the end of these little bun tosses isn't it?

But it's no surprise - these guys never have been willing to use a broom and shovel have they?

It isn't about logic or evidence, it seems

I must have repeated this about 20 times in the last 3 years and given references and books to read as well. It's not like what I am saying is really radical or that I dreamed it up. The analysis of corporate capitalism as state-created and social democracy as a compromise with the the corporate system has an abundance of evidence going for it and with the Intenet there is absolutely no excuse not to be aware of it. But Cappy and his pals repeat the same foolish mantras to the system for which they have some irrational impulse to worship.

what a screwed up province.

what a screwed up province. everybody wants something for nothing. this is what happens when all the teachers and professors are ardent lefties and, in quebec's case, also separatists. maybe all you left coast commies should move to la belle province and set up a little marxist paradise. that's what the flq were fighting for wasn't it? at least until they were sent to cuba to discover what castro's revolution really looked like. maybe we should just let 'em go and move on. how much less united could the country be without them anyway?

Elliot

Since there are obviously fewer of you (the folks who believe in capitalist corporate kleptocracy - say 5 - 7 percent of the population) and more of us (the folks who'd like a decent but not lavish lifestyle and standard of living for all - including you) wouldn't it be more DEMOCRATIC for you to move to the States where you'd really find yourself much happier anyway?

And take your crooked, criminal rules and dyspeptic attitudes toward your fellow man with you.

You are the only person I know of who never says anything good about his fellow human beings.

How do you manage to live with yourself when you're so steeped in purblind bitterness and ennui?

Who would ever possibly want to unite with someone as bitter and angry as you are?

'How do you manage to live

'How do you manage to live with yourself when you're so steeped in purblind bitterness and ennui?' sounds like a pretty good description of a b.c. lefty to me. this entire website consists of people complaining about the gov't while looking for someone to blame for all their problems.

Not at all El

I say positive and encouraging things all the time. It's you who holds the patent on this sort of thing my friend:

You have a pretty short memory along with that one-track mind, don't you?

To add a little more philosophy

Is the glass half empty, or half full?

Its a trick question. Its both. Which governments have been known for violence, capitalist or socialist? Democracy or communism? Trick questions. Its jall of them.

Which governments are the hardest on the environment? The left or right? Trick question... its both.

The moment anyone puts a monetary value on something, there is an automatic will born to create a demand for it to increase that value. This is how money is made, and its doesn't matter what government it is... capitalist, socialist, communist, anarchist, theocratic, fasist, monarchist... everybody wants to make money. And how is money made? By driving up the value through supply and demand.

We build our houses with wood. We don't have to, there are plenty of other products we can use. We can use iron and steel and glass and concrete and cement and brick and fibre composites. But since there is a monetary value placed on wood, there is a sacrificial lamb for that value, however greed spawned or artificial and that that sacrifical lamb is our forests... world wide. And its like that with everything else that we do.

So until our value is appropriately placed and we have a "demand" for thinkers and educated people... who know what the true wills, goals and plans fit the scale and timelines of what this earth can substain...

Truly... until governments wake up and realize that when a value is placed on eating tigers in china there will soon be no more tigers... or that when a value is placed on education that isn't corrupted or subverted by the lust for money will enlighten a society to the point of seeing the light, that substainability and self control is ultimate to survival... until governments put the appropriate value on education and equal opportunity... then education and equal opportunity will not come. Enlightenment will not come.

Do we need population controls? Variables... size, scale, substainability, its all environmental. What do you think? Of course!

Do we need to explore all of the other alternatives in generating power or transport or communication or food supply? What do you think... of course!!!

Do we need to grasp the notion that the ideals of marriage, of higher learning, of equal opportunity, of human and life rights is goood and worth pursuing? You tell me... what else is there? ??

Do we need to recognize that talking up high standards and principals, although not yet walked, begin with this talk, begin with a deep appreciation for what we have yet achieved?

Do we mock our own beginnings? How can we when history has already shown us through the sacrifices of those who took the time to put it on record to teach us what does and does not work...

Cont.

For those than, do. And those that can't, teach. Those that can, are in the land of the living. And those who can't, left the torch to light the way for us to succeed.

Why do leaders such as Campbell want to snuff out light... if not to profit for today at the expense of tomarrow... at everyone elses expense. And we so love to blame.

Did you vote? Did you voice your own concerns... not just the concerns for yourself, but the concerns for others, cause in case you all haven't yet noticed, we're all in it together. That's right, we all breathe the same air, drink the same water, stand on the same earth... the dirty coal plants and love affair with PCP's and plastics will find its home on your plate and in our mouths soon enough, whether we chose it or not and guess what.

We're all kind of special (and not just for the special olymipics,lol). Its just that some of the mothers and fathers of the world either don't know enough or are to selfish to remind their own children of this very important fact. (we hear their voices bleat often on the tyee)

Who who isn't related to another human being? Who here would make war with their own family? Who here can judge those without knowing the shoes someone else has worn. For we must make assessments in this world. The big picture, thinking outside of the box, it helps huge. And even then... for judgement is either reward and sanction. What do men like Harper and Campbell know, when they know very little, if anything of what I've just said.

Does anyone here considering this think they are still fit to govern when their entire lives are built around prestige and money?

Someone out there in NDP or Green land offer me a chance to lead. Give me a shot at being an MLA. At least, I can tell you this much, I know what it takes to follow and lead. It sure isn't the stuff Cambpell and Harper are made of.

Lorne Mccuaig
Revelstoke

Excellent posts, by the way

This thread does have excellent posts. I have to agree with Lynn on her assessment (have I ever disagreed with her on anything? Can't recall it. Anyways... :-)

Ov's link really is worth reading and as well as his/her post. Thanks for that as well.

In hindsight, that's exactly what it is. Thanks for reminding me, Lynn.

nice comeback

nice comeback gwest/alcibiades/?/?/?. i noticed you ignored the fact that it's all true. have a nice day blathering to all the other lefty commies on your little site. hope you manage to pull yourself away from the computer for a couple of hours anyway. bye.

Interesting regarding link - get to the core of it.

I am having some difficulty interpreting Steven Jobs’ remarks. In one moment, he appears to be an open and candid defender of education and technology. But then his attack on teachers and their unions got my attention a little. Teachers unions need bashing from time to time, but his remarks were a little out of context. He has also attacked the textbook industry as well. While I have no problem with this, as I remember paying $80 for books that I used for about 20 minutes. However, I am starting to question his motivation.

If you really examine his ads, they are about creating divisions between people. Mac vs. PC is humorous in one sense, but when you really look at it, it rather strikes you divisive. Although he wants information and technology to be shared, are his computers that affordable? Does iPod contribute to making a society stronger?

As well, are Apple computers accessible to people? How many people do you know that can take apart and reassemble an iMac? I know dozens that can build PCs, but few who can really have fun customizing Mac technology. To me, it sounds like Apple tightly guards it technology. This is not a Mac. Vs. PC debate – as we can simply look at Bill Gate’s Windows Vista and have a chuckle about the clumsiness of its introduction and outright silliness.

Apple has had several years to contribute to the education system. Students in the early 90s were being pushed to choose Apple technology. Some teachers and schools were given pretty sweet deals for choosing Apple, now some schools I suspect are choosing Dell. I am also suspecting it is about market share for Apple, not “sharing” technology and information.

While Jobs’ comments regarding formal education are valid, and he is successful, the world is full of “successful and influential” people. Are his words on education more valuable than those of Donald Trump, David Suzuki, or Margaret Thatcher?

It appears that Steve Jobs wants the idea of “education” to change, but only if he and his brand is leading it.

Careful what you wish for.

Hypocrite!

Elliot, you are a hypocrite. You believe in your set of entitlements as G. West and I have listed above - and want to take other people's away from them. There is one true way to get rid of entitlements - eliminate the ones which favor corporate capitalism. You will then have a highly egalitarian society and won't need to spend vast sums on the social services you hate. The welfare state is a result of inequality created by the corporate state. Try to understand this, please.

thanks el

Too bad you couldn't come back with something substantive yourself.

That fact of the matter is that what is actually true is that virtually all of the people I know: doctors, lawyers, garbage men, architects, teachers, secretaries, civil servants, business men and women, professors and students - all think and believe in the exact same thing I do.

That what they are mostly interested in is a reasonably comfortable life that they can afford without working 60 - 80 hours a week, a house that's modestly comfortable, a holiday maybe every three years or so, a chance for a decent and affordable education for their children, some assurance they have a secure position even if their health should fail...basic stuff.

Most of them aren't too concerned about what kind of fancy-dan car they drive but they'd usually like to drive it a lot less; not too enamored by trying to get a leg up on their neighbours and friends with the latest bidet and marble foyer cladding and, they couldn't much care whether their neighbour gets his or her pay with a union check off each month or not.

Those are the folks I meet on the soccer pitch and at the rink Elliot. In addition, all of them pretty much agree, there is something terribly wrong with the way their lives have turned out.

I thought you were a pretty average guy too - I guess not. You seem to see the world through the wrong end of the telescope - at least that's my analysis.

Oh, by the way, I make my living on this computer about 80% if the time - stopping to spend a little free time with you isn't costing me a cent – in fact it’s kind of pleasant diversion from the work I do on the weekends as well.

YOU?

I take it you’re part of the landed aristocracy.

The Canadian Action Party

The Canadian Action Party for truth We need to act NOW!

http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?zine=show&aid=69&_id=27

Is this what we want for our future?
Not me these are treasonous acts against US all CANADIANS.
As such WE should as Canadians bring a Class Action Suite against the traitors in OUR Federal and Provincial Buildings
This is very close to becoming real with TILMA
Action NOW!

in support of G West, anarcho

G West:

That what they are mostly interested in is a reasonably comfortable life that they can afford without working 60 - 80 hours a week, a house that's modestly comfortable, a holiday maybe every three years or so, a chance for a decent and affordable education for their children, some assurance they have a secure position even if their health should fail...basic stuff.

I agree with the above (though I have my doubts about the bulk of middle and big business leaders (CEOs and such) and the few "professionals" (including politicians) they have found/enticed to have sold their souls for pieces of gold.

Elliot says:
"...what a screwed up province. everybody wants something for nothing. this is what happens when all the teachers and
professors are ardent lefties..."

Elliot, I have a difficult time understanding how anyone who works for the public could ethically perform his/her service if he/she did not believe that everyone deserved fair treatment and equal opportunities. Teachers/professors would be highly unethical if they believed that they should not help every one of their students achieve their maximum individual potential. This includes an understanding that creating art and acts of altruism are considered pinnacles of human endeavour. Further, professional bodies/schools include this belief in their goals, oaths, creeds, codes, canons, rules of governance, etc. I found readiliy available statements to that effect for every professional body/school I researched, save One: Business!

Perhaps the universities need to look at business to help these faculties and their departments rewrite their mission statements and goals to reflect an understanding of the highest standards of the state of being human. It has been proven that it is difficult to help people maximise their potentials if they are abused or neglected. People need to be fed, clothed, sheltered and loved. Most need to "feel" they are valued in order to function in a way that has them acting as capably as they can.

Following are a few of those oaths etc.:

Doctors:
From the THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH:
"...In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional

ill-doing and all seduction... If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men
and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot."

(Cont...)

continued from last post, in support...

Lawyers:
From the Role of the Law Society
"...The primary responsibility of the Law Society under the provincial Legal Profession Act is to protect the public interest in the administration of justice.

The Law Society of BC works to ensure that the public is well served by a legal profession that is honourable, competent and independent. The Law Society sets and enforces standards of professional conduct for lawyers in BC. The Society also brings a voice to issues affecting the justice system and the delivery of legal services."
http://www.lawsociety.bc.ca/about/overview.html

From CHAPTER 1 of the "CANONS OF LEGAL ETHICS"
[In force January 1, 1992]

# "5. To oneself

(1) A lawyer should assist in maintaining the honour and integrity of the legal profession, should expose without fear or
favour before the proper tribunals, unprofessional or dishonest conduct by any other lawyer and should accept without
hesitation a retainer against any lawyer who is alleged to have wronged the client.

(2) It is the duty of every lawyer to guard the Bar against the admission to the profession of any candidate whose moral
character or education renders that person unfit for admission.

(3) A lawyer should make legal services available to the public in an efficient and convenient manner that will command
respect and confidence. A lawyer's best advertisement is the establishment of a well-merited reputation for competence and
trustworthiness.

(4) No client is entitled to receive, nor should any lawyer render any service or advice involving disloyalty to the state,
or disrespect for the judicial office, or the corruption of any persons exercising a public or private trust, or deception or
betrayal of the public.

(5) A lawyer should recognize that the oaths taken upon admission to the Bar are solemn undertakings to be strictly observed.

(6) All lawyers should bear in mind that they can maintain the high traditions of the profession by steadfastly adhering to
the time-honoured virtues of probity, integrity, honesty and dignity."

http://www.lawsociety.bc.ca/publications_forms/handbook/chapter-01.html

(cont...)

further to my above...

From the "Mission Statement of the Faculty of Arts", UBC:

"OUR Mission
The Faculty of Arts aims to create and disseminate knowledge through the teaching, learning, research, professional practice, artistic production and performances of its faculty and of its students. We aim to educate within a context of freedom of inquiry and intellectual curiosity.

To be human is to wonder, to seek meaning, to discover. Our mission is to nurture this humanness--to educate our students in
this humanness. We study nature so that we can understand, use, and preserve the physical world in responsible ways. We
reflect on societies, past and present, so that we can create free-thinking and responsible citizens for tomorrow. We seek
knowledge that solves practical problems, but also knowledge for its own sake. We teach our students how to identify problems and their interdependencies and how to solve problems, how to think analytically and critically and how to reason convincingly, how to write and how to speak coherently and logically. We educate dreamers and thinkers, politicians and political activists, scientists and artists, entrepreneurs and workers - the leaders and the doers who will shape the markets and societies of tomorrow.

We undertake our work in a world in which societies are engaged in an active dialogue between their needs to understand and appreciate one another and their needs to maintain distinctive social and cultural identities...

We educate citizens for an international world at a time when technological change and global economic integration have generated great uncertainty.... We take it as our duty to educate students to be lifelong learners, to question conventional wisdom, to seek out facts, to analyze, to synthesize, to communicate, to be open to criticism, and to have an understanding of social and cultural diversity.

Technological change ... gives rise to special problems: the widening gulf between the rich and the poor, environmental damage, stresses in the family structure, the tensions caused by increased interaction among different cultures. These are problems which benefit from interdisciplinary approaches. Arts brings to them scholars from the social sciences, the humanities, the creative and performing arts, the professional schools and its interdisciplinary programmes.

The challenges posed by internationalism, by technological change, by environmental damage, by cultural diversity: these are largely challenges posed by the interaction of people with the world and the circumstances in which they live. Because they are about people, these challenges cannot be addressed without education and research about people and their societies...."
http://www.arts.ubc.ca/About_Us.48.0.html

...finally, to the above

UBC: Faculty of Science: Synergy - Words from Our New Dean Synergy - JOURNAL OF UBC SCIENCE

"...I believe one of the biggest challenges facing our society is sustainability—meeting the needs of the present without

compromising the ability of future generations to meet their needs. Over the past several decades, we have learned that the

complex biogeochemical cycles that connect the Earth’s major “spheres” (atmosphere, biosphere, hydrosphere, and lithosphere)

are increasingly disturbed by, and in some cases dominated by, human activities. It is no longer possible to study many

planetary-scale processes, such as atmospheric chemistry, without understanding and incorporating into our models the impact

of humans on these processes. Indeed, the largest uncertainties with respect to global warming are not scientific

uncertainties, but human uncertainties. Will our society continue to burn fossil fuels at an increasing rate? Or will our

society react to the threat of global warming by significantly reducing carbon dioxide emissions?"
http://www.science.ubc.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21

UVIC: Faculty of Education: The World of Learning: A strategic plan and vision for the Faculty of Education:
"The strength of the Faculty of Education lies in its people: students, faculty, staff, alumni, partners and
friends. Our goal is to recruit and retain a diverse group of exceptional students, faculty and staff by
providing an environment supportive of learning, teaching, collegiality and research.
Objective 1: To ensure that principles of fairness and equity are incorporated within all procedures and activities within
the Faculty of Education.
Objective 3: To respond to the changing educational needs of students and society.
Objective 4: To implement and monitor an equity plan.
http://www.educ.uvic.ca/index.php"

UBC: Sauder School of Business:

I could find no statement of moral or ethical behaviour within general info for this faculty, comments from the dean or any of its departments. This omission is a statement in and of itself!

Remember, Sharing Is Good!

SIG

You're likely right about businessmen and women - the professionals – commerce-faculty educated and (or) MBA trained among them. Such activity, based as it is upon the generation of profit above all else does tend to have a corrosive effect upon the soul. I think what I had in mind was the average small businessman of my acquaintance. Their trials and tribulations, long hours and frustrations of one kind or another, seem not out of keeping with those of the rest of us. Often they are tradesmen and the like.

The employees of the larger commercial enterprises, while they are of course encouraged to share in the behaviors judged to be in the best interests of the firm, are, sadly, among the poorest-treated of the individuals I know. I suspect the lack of any ethical principles over the door, so to speak, of the Sauder School (among others) is no accident.

I doubt if you have disabused Elliot of his prejudices, but it was a noble effort all the same.

thanks, G West

I enjoyed the research as Ellie had already piqued my interest before I read your reply about the beliefs of people (and made changes to my reply accordingly). SIG

'I take it you’re part of

'I take it you’re part of the landed aristocracy.' that's the problem with you lefties; you always assume these things when people disagree with you. just so you know gwest/alcibiades/?/?/?, i've never been wealthy in my life and i sincerely doubt if i ever will be. as for sharingisgoods ridiculous diatribe; why would i read any further than the following ridiculous nonsensical statement: "Elliot, I have a difficult time understanding how anyone who works for the public could ethically perform his/her service if he/she did not believe that everyone deserved fair treatment and equal opportunities. Teachers/professors would be highly unethical if they believed that they should not help every one of their students achieve their maximum individual potential. This includes an understanding that creating art and acts of altruism are considered pinnacles of human endeavour. Further, professional bodies/schools include this belief in their goals, oaths, creeds, codes, canons, rules of governance, etc. I found readiliy available statements to that effect for every professional body/school I researched, save One: Business!" now that's some leftista smack!!!! it might even win the blather of the YEAR award.

Elliot

"i've never been wealthy in my life and i sincerely doubt if i ever will be."

Why not? Don't you work hard?

I have to laugh at all the capitalist worker bees that argue for an unrestricted, everyone for themselves, free market system when they seem incapable of exploiting it for themselves. It doesn't take a huge amount of intelligence to get wealthy, just few scruples and a some capital.

The problem Elliot

The problem, Elliot, with what you say about others - is its mean-spiritedness and lack of decency – even to such simple niceties as courtesy and good manners - not to mention its clear failure to recognize the common humanity we all share: rich and poor, boss and worker and that it leaves a very bad taste in everyone's mouth.

You may not be wealthy but you certainly have bought into the idea that criticizing those who aren’t and those who actually understand and want to change a greedy and selfish system are somehow the victimizers and not the victims. Your subversive view of the world and its moral dimension turns reality on its head in a way that Dean Swift would have celebrated with an essay like A Modest Proposal.

One might understand your selfishness if it were a consequence of that great motivator of the capitalist system - greed. Not agree with it, mind you, but at least understand the common origins of its motivation.

Instead, you appear to be a hopeless and thoughtless crank, practicing a philosophy that is at odds with collective morality, meaningful ethics and your own self-interest. Incapable of expressing a meaningful justification for your behavior you revert to the same nonsense even when you are ‘trying’ to be rational.

Someone who does that is at best, not just a curmudgeon, but also a fool. You are, quite clearly, not having taken this opportunity to provide any rational explanation for your uncouth behavior, just not worth the candle. Your habitual behavior here has an analogue in the behavior of a child whose maladjustment to the standards of common decency expresses itself as irrational bullying on the playground.

Elliot...

What's the "leftistas smack" in SIG's posting? The fact he/she has found codes of conduct for many except the business community? Or that he/she believes that it should be followed?

Codes of conduct...

There are two groups of people that regularly prove that they believe that as long as they somehow benefit from unbecoming (usually borderline, if not totally illegal) and immoral behaviour it's okay ... wanna guess who I mean ... naa, you'll never get it ... it's politicians and businesses.

G Alci West Iabides

Another G West sermon....24/7/365.

Quote/s:

....." your uncouth behaviour..."

....." your habitual behaviour... "

....." You appear to be a a hopeless and thoughtless crank"...

......"it is mean spirited and lack of decency... "

......"just not worth the candle..."

....." Someone who does that at best,(blah blah blah) but also a fool "

..."Incapable of expressing a meaningful justification for your behaviour ...."

etc. barf etc. barf... barf barf

Here come da judge...here come da judge...burnt -out and yet still burning candles at both ends.

And ALL this judging and preaching from a party who felt justified in deceiving us with their ALCIABIDES facade, shamelessly and unrepentant.

...".... a very bad taste in everyones' mouth " (???)

Everyone's mouth (???)

You don't speak for many of us G West don't , I repeat, DON'T make broad sweeping generalizations.

Talk about UBER garbage G Alci West iabides....talk about uber condescending GARBAGE. Keep pissing on your own powder... the wetter it gets the better off we'll all be.

Unions members:

Those that believe the "Union members" by and large are " Lefties" and support the Left Wing have more than likely NOT been union members. My own experience in Unions was most certainly an eye opener.

Of that, those that believe those in the Public Service are necessarily there to Serve the Public...well ....we'll leave it at that.

ALSO: Often... the radicals within the membership fight the Laws of Gravity and make it to the top..." and represent the membership and their best interests and the membership better STFU " .....LOL.

Are you posting for Elliot too this morning maestro

You are, however, as big a joke as he is and what I posted for him applies, mutatis mutandis, to you as well.

The interesting thing about people like you and Elliot is that, when challenged about your fallacious ideas about the world, you revert to the kind of childish name calling that I last experienced in an elementary school playground.

Absent the information and intellect to actually mount an argument in favour of the things you say you believe in, you become nothing more than a low-rent version of the bombastic Lord Black.

No better way to show what a complete fool you are than this kind of thing Maestro:

You're getting very close to violating the rules here, keep it up dude - just a bit more of that irrational anger and you'll be gone.

Mr. Lathered-up -sky aka G -Alci-west- iabides

QUOTE: from Mr. Free Speech. " Leftie style ".

"You are getting very close to violating the rules here -keep it up dude-just a little bit more of that irrational anger and you'll be gone". (Gee how much more is a little bit more, Alci please quantify )

" You are getting very close to violating the rules here, keep it up dude - just a bit more of that irrational anger and you'll be gone". (gee how much more is a little bit more , G West, please quantify )

" You are getting very close to violating the rules here, keep it up dude-just a bit more of that irrational anger and you'll be gone" . (gee are you ALSO the TYEE Editor or have you kidnapped him G West? Is Alci an accomplice? )

" You are getting very close to violating the rules here, keep it up dude-just a bit more of that irrational anger and you'll be gone" .
(BTW where/what is " gone " ?... as in " you'll be gone" is that a T-H-R-E-A-T ? ...what kind of " contract work " do you really do?...do you have a solar powered cement mixer ?

Have a good one...Mr. speak-sky for everybody-sky. Yer powder is not only soaking wet, it is quickly washing a-w-a-y.

Elliot, please enlighten with reason

What part of what I wrote had anything to do with left or right? I found myself curious about the ethics and the missions of the educating of educators and other professionals due to your assertion that they are "lefties", so I did some research. I reported my finding here. I found that there is a common thread in all the professions (save business) : part of one's education is gaining an understanding that one has a duty to use his or her learning to help society/humanity in general. After all, the learning that is achieved results from the work of those who existed before and during the life of the student. The student didn't get there alone, nor will he or she profit from his or her efforts except through the accepting of the fruits of others' labours.

Not only do I feel beholden to society, I feel a kinship with society (we are all related - you know). I wish you no harm, Elliot. I wish you a wonderful life. I wish you the joy of knowing that sharing wealth, kind acts and kind thoughts are good for the soul as well as for all the planet. It has been proven, time and again, that the healthiest among us think positive thoughts and want good things for others as well as ourselves. If we become better at sharing, then there is less war, less human suffering and less need to reduce the planet to polluted rubble. We look after our own interests by looking after everyone's interests. We are all on this ship together, and it has the greatest chance of stay afloat for you and your progeny if we work to maintain and improve it together - especially during stormy seas (natural disasters). Selfishness begets Disparity which leads to Desperate Actions - War. Sharing leads to Healthiness and Harmony - Peace.

Though the above be true, a small percentage of the population is sick, sociopathic. Those people believe that the world exisits for them to exploit to their own ends and that other people do not matter. My reading tells me that unusually high percentages of sociopaths are involved in criminal activities (of course). Also, there are high percentages who are middle and big business executives, and (LOL) pro football linebackers - particularly middle linebackers.

What type of person are you, Elliot - an exploiter (or wannabe) or a sharer? Best wishes to you and your kin. May you have peaceful days free from suffering and/or causing the suffering of others.

keep it up maestro

Those little circles are getting tighter and tighter all the time.

Figured it was about time for you to strap on the 'skis' again.

You've now become a caricature of a caricature. I didn't think that was possible.

Those little circles are getting tighter and tighter all the time.

Figured it was about time for you to strap on the 'skis' again.

You've now become a caricature of a caricature. I didn't think that was possible.

Incapable as you have proved to be of sustaining an argument or making a coherent case for a set of beliefs you don't even understand, you're actually sounding a lot more like the proprietor of 'ProudtobeCanadian' with every message.

Well done my friend.

Thanks for the positive feedback. Part 1

I was offline for most of yesterday, and probably today as well. A lot of these divergent threads have been coming together however and I'll try to sum up some thoughts, which I think qualify as syncronicities of the noosphere, or if that is too woo woo for you, indicators of an implicate order as described by the physicist David Bohm.

I got the Steve Jobs link from a website on spiritual inspiration that gets an average of three new links a day and it arrived the same day I posted it here. A couple of days ago on another site I found a link to this MadTV parody on Jobs. I'm not a Steve groupie, never owned a Mac, find the touch pads infuriating to use, and have a general aversion to how he caters to the cult of cool at an extreme cost premium. I give him begrudging respect for being a bona fide capitalist, unlike some of the poseurs on this site, whom I suspect confuse capital with money, and capitalism with managerialism; the terms described in John Ralston Saul's "The Collapse of Globalism: and the reinvention of the world", which I'm two thirds of the way through and which was overdue at the library as of yesterday. Not that I'm giving capitalism a free ride here, aligning more with anarcho and GWest, but capitalism is not the same animal as the cancerous consumerism combined with neo-liberal economics that has emerged over the last few decades, which more people would be aware of if we had been truly educated rather than indoctrinated.

Part 2

Both Lynn and The Brain commented on the significance of how The "less sure about everything" periods of one's life, in retrospect, are often such a real gift. About a week ago I syncronicitcly came across this graduate thesis from a Chicago Business school on Social Origins of Good Ideas which provided some sociological context to this thought. People that occupy positions in the overlap of two or more organizations are more likely to have creative ideas and have those ideas acted upon by the management. These are sometimes called "loose connections", or "structural holes" because they allow information to leak out of, and also into, what would otherwise be a homogeneous group. This source of creativity isn't based on deep intellectual ability, but rather on creativity as an import-export business, where the value is determined by the recipient rather than the source. Page 7 has some good quotes on the importance of contact with persons dissimilar to yourself, and how without le vide the emptiness of concept, there is no unexpected things and no creation. The more control the less creation. I think these were benifits that were recognized in the research done by SharingIsGood.

I think the true capitalists are also recognizing social capital as being the wellspring of the knowledge age, and that they will take a stand against the managerialists gorging on the seed corn to satisfy their addiction to total control. Capitalism has yet to be given a fair trial within a knowledge based economy because managerialism came to dominate around the same time that knowledge succeeded manufacturing. Maybe I'm a dreamer but I see hope here.

To conclude this post I'll address the point that Moat raised about the importance of face to face interaction in education, the going beyond the library, by linking to a couple of blog posts I wrote a few years ago. The first is on a Critique of Debate which along with its more civil cousin of "discussion" is behavior that spans the spectrum for online interaction. The second is on Dialogue and behaviors that support dialogue such as: suspension of judgement when listening and speaking, respect for differences, role and status suspension, balancing inquiry and advocacy, and to focus on learning. Extremely difficult and enough to try the patience of a saint. To come full circle David Bohm & Dialogue.

Fool's Game

Bohm's ideas on "thought" are really fascinating. One of my favourite "thoughts" from another physicist /iconoclast, Richard Feynman, fits in quite nicely with what Bohm is exploring:

ov

Thanks for that. Very nicely put.

Take back your copy of Saul - I'll lend you mine.

Half the battle is in whittling down and smoothing off the rough edges that keep causing all the bruises to the point where an approximation of civil discourse 'within' a diverse community (if our modern culture can actually still be concretized as such anymore) can actually take place.

I'd recommend Peter Singer's essay on billionarie 'philanthropy' but it's now behind the subscription wall at the Times.

We should do coffee some time

I'll finish Saul off today or tomorrow. I'm at the library now. Damn Shaw is causing me problems again so I won't be on the net again until at least tomorrow.

Yup, Feynman was a great critical thinker, to bad there wasn't more like him.

Lynn

To echo that note of Feynman's I was brushing up on Dracula last night and came across this from Leonard Wolf's introduction to my copy of Stoker's somewhat pedestrian prose:

"Finally, Stoker's achievement is this: he makes us understand in our own experience why the vampire is said to be invisible in the mirror. He is there, but we fail to recognize him since our own face gets in the way."

ov - coffee sounds like a good idea.

dialogical processes are good

What I like most about following a dialogical process is that people are encouraged to share in decision-making/poblem-solving/concensus-finding. Once again, sharing is good. It has been my experience that capitalism fosters a competitive (win-lose) atmosphere rather than a dialogical (how can we do what is best?) atmosphere. I say this as a former capitalist who was successful at amassing capital. Amassing capital did nothing to help me be a better person. Now, I just want to make a reasonable living and help others do the same. Daily, I learn to reduce my footprint so that a reasonable living is less invasive to the world around me.

tip of hat to ov

OV, thankyou for modelling behaviours (attempts to summarize and build upon the thoughts/words of others) that show that you give more than lipservice to placing value on dialogue. I have approached topics in similar ways on several instances, here, at the tyee. When I first came here, I was hot to dialogue, but have since falterred and have moved toward discussion, sometimes debate (though I find that distateful), when faced with bullies. Dialogical processes work, but only if all contributors buy in. Sometimes, when I have shown empathy for others thoughts and offering my beliefs as purely those: my beliefs, I hve been at the receiving end of some incredibly aggressive/bullisome behaviours, here, at the Tyee.

I have come to the belief that The Tyee plays host to a few sociopaths. They don't have empathy (except for themselves), and when other posters show comraderie or caring, these "sociopaths" attempt to manipulate it or discount it. Even now, I can think of a poster or two who may read these words and work to say negative things about me. They will not want to look inward as they may be incapable of it. They will want us to take pitty on them. Sociopaths like people who pitty them: they know how to abuse sympathetic well-wishers. These sociopaths will know themselves as people who have extremely few (if any) lasting friends, or even neighbours willing to talk to them. These sociopaths understand people as something they are meant to dominate and control. They create straw dogs and discount the heartfelt words of others as being unworthy to read. They use namecalling if they think it will hurt the writers with whom they disagree.

watch out maestro,

watch out maestro, gwest/alcibiades/?/?/? is threatening to have you banned. ooooooooohhhhhh, that's scary stuff. this from a guy who is about as dishonest and deceitful as can be. should make for a great chapter in his book though. i'd love to know what the editors really think about this clown. pretty hard for a site like this to be considered legitimate by the mainstream media when they allow a poster to pretend he's more than one person.

'I have come to the belief

'I have come to the belief that The Tyee plays host to a few sociopaths. They don't have empathy (except for themselves), and when other posters show comraderie or caring, these "sociopaths" attempt to manipulate it or discount it.' come now sharing, you shouldn't be so mean to gworst. or perhaps you were referring to one of his other nomenclatures.

213 - nil and another own goal for el

You really are showing yourself to be something special dude - Chris Simon hockey

All the time!

Elliot, Quote:'I have come

Elliot,

This is truly bizarre. Here is the upholder of the corporate state, the ultimate in sociopathology, accusing its critics of being sociopaths. You fail to realize as SIG, myself and several others have pointed out, that everything and every person is interconnected. Nothing can be treated in isolation, so in fact, we are our brothers - and sisters keepers, and it is this profound truth, and the ethical stance growing out of it, that separates us from you.

Elliot quoting me, anarcho

Hi Anarcho, thanks for the support and solidarity as a fellow brother or sister of our planet Earth. I believe Elliot was attempting to be cute by mocking me through manipulating my quote to his own ends: putting down G West, yet again. In that respect, the posting is truly bizarre.

G .....er Anarcho

I've already said an educated workforce benefits society - globally. However, when you break it down to its lowest common denominator, it benefits the individual the most. When you collectively look at tens of thousands of university degrees, that is when you start to say it is helping society.

So, no individual benefits from a degree more than the recipient him/herself. $5K/year for school?? This is nowhere near the cost of delivering such services. University/College is highly subsidized already.

The system covers the majority of the costs! I think things are hardly unfair!!

BC Mary - I got my B Com and I was 21.

ubc: b com - no ethics

I just reviewed the course offerings for the Sauder School of Business at UBC - I didn't see one single course in ethics or moral principles. Even when I looked through a few outlines of courses that I thought may include this content, I found nothing. This is not to say there no professors who include some coverage of ethics (or even of doing good things for the public/environment) as part of one of his or her courses.

http://www.sauder.ubc.ca/bcom/academic_program/course_resources/course_outlines.cfm

B Com - no ethics is right

That explains a lot.

Actually cappy, you could have done lot better with a Robert Kiyosaki seminar and a Tony Robbins weekend and used the rest of that money to buy some books and actually read them.

Your b com explains a lot, not least the fact that you have no in-depth knowledge about anything from accounting to economic theory.

Your investment in education was a bit of a waste if your performance here on any substantive issue (not to mention every ethical one) is any indication.

Too bad my friend. I hate to see people getting ripped off - even you.

Did anyone watch the

Did anyone watch the documentary last night "Why We Fight"?
A great reason for this OUR country CANADA to start a peaceful revolution as April 01, 07 It will be unlawful to organize or demonstrate against/for OUR Democratic Rights!
Has any one of the Elliot, Cappy, mastro, etal every really read TILMA with an ounce of unbiased intelligence?
As I've said before these Criminal libs Gordos and his chicken s--t mps and OUR MLAs are less than roaches all scuring around in darkened backroom treacherous acts against US the people of BC.
Population of OUR BC is around 4,000,000 against the few criminals in OUR LEGISLATURE Buildings

"Herein lies a riddle: How

"Herein lies a riddle: How can a people so gifted by God become so seduced by naked power, so greedy for money, so addicted to violence, so slavish before mediocre and treacherous leadership, so paranoid, deluded, lunatic?" : Philip Berrigan - Source: Hell, Healing and Resistance Veterans Speak

Good grief, Cappy ... you're only 36 years old?

I did the math again.

Cappy says that he was 21 when he graduated UBC 15 years ago in 1992 with a B.Comm. Zounds!

Cappy is only 36 years old! The lad is hardly even fully grown up yet.

Gosh, pal -- I wonder what has happened in your life.

I don't know if this is the best time to mention it, but at this precise moment, Coyote's story springs to mind.

Some Tyee readers will want to know that Coyote's eldest daughter died suddenly last week -- a young life cut short way, way too early. A few more details on Coyote's web-site at http://freespeechca.blogspot.com/

It's a moment to remember how precious life is, and to wish peace and healing to all.

From

From http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
"The public interest in having this case heard outweighs just about everything else," Madam Justice Elizabeth Bennett of the B.C. Supreme Court said after hearing another lengthy wrangle over the disclosure process, during which it was revealed that the defence may seek privileged cabinet documents.

Judge Bennett's statement was unprompted, but in the context of the testy legal sparring that preceded it, the comment was clearly meant to signal the oft-delayed
trial is still on track for pretrial motions to begin on April 16.

She set April 2 for the next court hearing.
“WAY TO GO YOUR HOUNOR JUDE BENNETT”

JUDGE

JUDGE

UVIC - (my alma mater) & SFU have ethics

I was impressed that this course is part of the core of third year courses found at UVIC:

COM 362
Decision Making for Responsible and Sustainable Global Business
Units: 1.5, Hours: 3-0
http://web.uvic.ca/calendar2006/CDs/COM/362.html

It was also nice to see that students are required to consider ethics at SFU:

Bus 303-3 - Business, Society and Ethics
http://www.sfubusiness.ca/bba/the-program/academic/program-requirements/requirements-major.php#4

I wonder if the students remember this part as so many of the other courses in 3rd and 4th years seem so heavy on pure capitalism, light on sustainability?

UVIC - (my alma mater) & SFU have ethics

I was impressed that this course is part of the core of third year courses found at UVIC:

COM 362
Decision Making for Responsible and Sustainable Global Business
Units: 1.5, Hours: 3-0
http://web.uvic.ca/calendar2006/CDs/COM/362.html

It was also nice to see that students are required to consider ethics at SFU:

Bus 303-3 - Business, Society and Ethics
http://www.sfubusiness.ca/bba/the-program/academic/program-requirements/requirements-major.php#4

I wonder if the students remember this part as so many of the other courses in 3rd and 4th years seem so heavy on pure capitalism, light on sustainability?

man those lefty professors

man those lefty professors sure do push a lot of crap at those 'institutions of higher learning'. and all of it at the good taxpayer's expense. nice gig if you can get it i guess.

it's all relative

Elliot said:

I wonder, Elliot, how much formal schooling have you had? What has been your experience with university?

thanks for asking

thanks for asking socialismisgood. i've attended ubc, bcit and sfu. would love to be more specific re; degrees and certificates, but prefer to be careful about personal information on this site. not that i don't trust anyone here but actually i don't trust anyone here.

did you gain anything?

I'm still curious, Elliot:
1. Did you find what you hoped to gain through attending any of your courses at UBC, BCIT or SFU?
2. Did you find any value in any of your courses?
3. Did you have any professors, readings, or research topics that inspired you?
4. What was your goal in attending university?
5. Also, did you complete a degree or diploma program?

I ask the above questions in an attempt to understand you, Elliot. You post here a great deal, so I am sure that others (as well as myself) are interested in how you arrive at your opinions. Thanks...SIG

your fifteen minutes of fame

looks like your getting yours Elliot:

university costs and stupid government

In Sweden and other Scandinavian countries, they spend less money in Education and get their population to University for free.
Either ignorance has become a currency of some the writers in this thread or the arguments are just emotional justling in order to push an ideology. Capitalism is in its death bed. With Bush gone and Harpo gone and hopefully Dion's party gone too, we can have a breather and helping people ( not TNC) will be the goal of the government.
The incredible amount of money Liberals and Conservatives have throon as grants to TNC is unreal.
So everybody get informed. Even the Taxpayer Federation exposed the disturbing trend of governments giving money to business and getting nothing back.

Gordon Cambpel and Cia cares about themselves and friends only.

I wrote the letter below to the Attorney general. [b]I left my identity anonymously to protect my privacy.

Hi:
I live in your constituency. My name is --------------(I placed my name here).
I called your office to make some inquiries and was treated by Keith, a office clerk, in a manner that is not conducive to a service provider (He is paid with taxpayer's money and he needs to be courteous, polite and friendly).
My questions are below after these preamble:

" Earlier this month, WorkSafe BC proposed a penalty of approximately $297,000 against Weyerhaeuser Canada as a result of a workplace death. In 2004 at a sawmill in New Westminster, 55-year-old Lyle Hewer was killed after agreeing to unblock a "hog" -- a machine used to crush waste-wood products. Hewer, who was known to be easy-going and obliging, was the second employee to be asked by management to enter the confined space and manually clear out the blockage, after another employee had refused on health and safety grounds. Subsequent investigation revealed that management had been aware of problems with the "hog," and repairs following Hewer's death cost the company approximately $30,000. Although Crown Counsel considered charging the company with criminal negligence causing death pursuant to the "Bill C-45" amendments to the Criminal Code, they ultimately declined to do so and referred the case to WorkSafe."
Then in Quebec:
In January of this year in Quebec, Transpave, a concrete block manufacturer, has been charged with criminal negligence causing death under the "Bill C-45" amendments to the Criminal Code as a result of a recent workplace death. In 2005, a 23-year-old employee of Transpave died while attempting to clear a jam in a machine. An investigation by Quebec health and safety officials revealed that the optic security system of the machine involved in the fatal accident had been disabled.
1 - Is 297,000 what a life of a worker is worth?
2 - Why have your office declined to take the case to trial in order to test and comply with Bill C-45?
3 - There have been many deaths since Bill C-45 was given royal assent, why haven't any of this deaths gone to trial?
The way things stand right now our human rights records on the "working front" is as good as China. In China workers' lives are at the mercy of the bosses. Here in Canada, a democratic country, it is the same. We are at the mercy of the bosses.
Can you please respond my queries?
Thank you!
---------------( I placed my name here

Wally Oppal's answer to above letter

Mr. Wally Oppal's answer:

"April 27, 2007
M --------------
My address
Vancouver - BC V

Dear M;

Thank you for your recent emailing expressing concerns over Worksafe BC and the Federal Bill C-45.

I assure you my Constituency Assitant meant no offence he wasn't in a position to answer your question over the phone and asked if you would send your email we would be pleased to look into your concerns.

My office spoke with a representative of Worksafe BC and been advised Worksafe BC recently carried out and investigation into the case you refer to.This investigation resulted in violations against the Workers Compensation Act and the Occupational Health and Safety Regulation being cited and an administrative penalty against the employer being recommended by Workforce BC. That process is in accordance with WCB law and policy.

I have included the website address for Workforce BC's news release about this case and the investigation report can be found on Worksafe BC website at
http://www.worksafebc.com/news_room_news_
releases/new_07_03_15.asp

Regarding Bill C-45 amendments to the Criminal Code Affecting the Criminal Liability of Organizations this is Federal Legislation. If you wish to bring your concerns to the Federal Minister responsible I suggest you contact either your local Member of Parliament Ujjal Dosanhj or The Honourable Robert Douglas Nicholson.
His emailing address is;

The honourable Robert Douglas Nicholson
Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
284 Wellington Street
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada K1A 0H8

You can also reach his office by email and I have included that address as well.

Email

Again; thank you for making me aware of your concerns.

Sincerely,

Wally Oppal, M.L.A.
Vancouver Fraserview "

The above tells us a lot about how much Cambpell and his pals on the government cares about the working class.