Did you even read the article jwstewart? It's a for profit "urgent care" clinic not another surgical centre.

I have worked in Healthcare as a Registered Nurse across Canada, and in the United States. I must admit, this debate is getting old.

I must ask the author what he means by "full-blown American Style Health Care"? Having worked there, I encourage you to do some research on your own. I think what you will find will surprise you. Free healthcare and Medicare is widely available in the US. In all the years I worked down there, nobody died at the door of the ER because they didn't have cash. In fact under COBRA legislation passed by the Clinton administration, it is a felony to refuse care to anyone who requires it, regardless if you are a for profit hospital, or publically funded. Stop the propoganda. Don't kid yourself, healthcare is not free in Canada, it is simply paid by other methods, such as taxes and monthly fee's for your Care Card.

Anyhow, enough of my ranting. Here are some facts:

First and foremost, those who don't realize that multiple tiers of accessibility to health care exist is Canada, are either naive or uninformed.

There are regular Canadians, like you and I, who wait our turn in line.

Then there are the professional athletes or societal elite who jump the line, and access the publically funded healthcare system ahead of you and I.

Next we have the wealthy. They simply take their Platinum American Express, and (assuming they live in Vancouver) travel to Seattle, where they drop said card on the counter and get immediate treatment. Thus effectively taking funds out of the Canadian economy.

Oh yes, and let's not forget the political and military elite who go to National Defence Hospital in Ottawa. This Billion dollar, state of the art facility serves only those in the elite levels of federal service. Ask yourself? Do you really think the Prime Minister, the Commissioner of the RCMP, or General Hillier will wait 18 months for a hip replacement?

Effectively ladies and gentlemen, we currently have 4 levels of healthcare. The debate is past, it's here to stay. The only question that remains, is whether or not to allow the False Creek Urgent Care Clinic to stay open.

I for one say yes. If someone has the funds to pay "X" number of dollars for stitches, and is prepared to pay those funds to get it done faster than by waiting 7 hours at VGH or St. Pauls, does that not effectively reduce the wait time at VGH, thus improving healthcare for those that either don't have the funds or unprepared to pay?

Using Vancouver City Hall for 'inspection' closure of the potential facility is foolish and would set a dangerous precedent, especially in light of the Quebec ruling regarding access to care.

If the City had gone thru with the 'closure' on its own then a different set of rules would suddenly apply to all businesses looking to open in Vancouver (medical or not) and if the Federal Government gets cornered again regarding care access then Vancouver would end up at the back of the pack in the rush to change-over. This could see such a silly thing as Burnaby or Surrey having better care than the Vancouver citizens.

Listen to them? Sure.

Act on the small group's demands? No.

Actually it tends not to reduce wait times. Rather what happens is that it changed the conditions of resource allocation from one based on need to one based on ability to pay. To make my point, if a person will pay a large amount to get a low priority procedure done then potentially the person who has the skill will move toward this treatment instead of dealing with something really urgent in the public system. This is particularly true if the same person works in both the poublic and private system. The public system provides a certain income (wage or salary for most professionals, guarantted fee for service for physicians) and therefore the service providers can essentially push up their services in the private sector which is essentally gravy for them. While I commend Clinton and state govenors for improvements in the US, while no one dropd dead at the door I encourage you to look at aggregate public health figures which put Canada far ahead of the US at a much lower cost. There are systems in the world that are better than Canada's however we are not moving toward them, we are moving toward a system that has one of the worst outcomes at the highest cost in the developed world.

good thing we have Tyee!
this subject should really be discussed at the legislature, but, read this: we have no business to discuss!

"The reason we do this motion is because it signals that the business of government and the business of this House has been completed. After this motion passes, there would be another motion, and that is that the House do now adjourn. But this motion is debatable, and it's debatable for a reason: because the government believes that the business of the House is finished. But the opposition may have a different view."
Mike Farnworth, Opposition House Leader, Hansard, November 27, 2006

Verso:
It is being opened by the False Creek Surgical Centre.

So, they are directly part of a surgical center.

Phone number please ?

jw, you can't use google?

False Creek Surgical centre :
604-739-9695

took me like 30 seconds

the thing called the phone book might have it too

obuchmann

why did a law have to be passed? Surely to god a private health system as wonderful and as expensive as that of America's didn't need a law to be passed to stop people without insurance from dying.

What I can't understand is what Abbott has been doing for the past several months.

THis outfit is in clear violation of the province's heath legislation and the Canada Health Act.

Is it possible that the Premier told him to do nothing while these lawbreakers got their vehicle into gear?

That's exactly what I have been thinking, Alcibiades. This center didn't just suddenly materialize out of thin air...where has the oversight been during this whole process? How did they hire staff? Under what premises? Isn't hiring under false premises a kind of fraud?

What if I left a good position to hire on here and then the clinic is closed because it contravenes the Canada Health Act?

Or has this been a completely sure thing from the start...that no one would ask any revealing questions that would expose the subterfuge.... and this would all just slide by?

And then the next one would slide by.... and then the next one... and then the next one....

It wouldn't be beyond our Dear Leader's imagination lynn, I think that's exactly what he's up to.

You think Gordon and his brother in law don't talk?

There was a law Prof (wish I could remember her name) on the noon show on CBC radio who spelled out the legal aspects very clearly. These guys are crooks - the ones behind the operation - and they have a get-out-of-jail-free card.

Even the little dog and pony show they held with reporters was informative - all the right words: 'access', 'choice', 'convenience' - but not a word about 'cost', ‘equal access’, ‘affordability’ or ‘fairness’.

They've been practicing. No doubt.

Just like monopoly - the game.

So, they are directly part of a surgical center.

Phone number please ?

Yeah I READ the article... the surgical centre has been around for a long time... which leads me to believe the only reason you posted the question was to troll... you want a private surgery, we get it, now go make your call.

Just heard Mayor Sam as he was asked some questions around this new health unit.Mike smythe was doing the asking. Sam was dancing , claimed his staff will do the right thing, and he won't micromanage the decision of staff. a lot of weasel words in my view.
They jumped over to the bil water issue and again it wasn't Sam who should make the point one way or another. Sam finally had to admit he could have done better. Wishy washy on this one .

Oh man...poor ol' Tommy Douglas must be spinning in the hereafter.

Perhaps this topic best be boiled - down to some pragmatic bone without the ideological dogma window dressing.

Medicine has advanced, and the population has grown. So has queue- jumping...for certain eligible facets of society.

The mini- Private health care system exists. A broader version is being challenged. Huh?

What is the argument...isn't it, ultimately, quality of life in whatever years remain in this mortal coil ? If some 68 years old person needs heart surgery...or hip replacement...etc. and the meter is running....and the Public System says " take a number " ...why shouldn't there be another " option" ?

Why not, as a consequence, reduce the Public System's waitng line by the number of those willing to pursue these options ? Why would anyone deny these people these options AND within their own country ?

Criminal ?...Yeah right ! who dreamed that up ?...ideologues again...let's try splitting some other legal hairs.

Seems to me that peoples lives and ultimate well - being is placed on the altar of bogus ideology, and damn the consequences. Medicare when it originated never envisioned the universality as it has evolved into...and unfortunately raised everyone's expectations.

As a counter -measure, Gov'ts have simply restricted access to the Public system, and thus also restricted the Private option which would simply expose this increasingly blatant reality re: the Public System......thus E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E loses.

I guess that's relativity - based "equality".

So, a previous poster says nobody dies at the door of a ER from a lack of money ...they do it at home in front of their families instead because they are afraid of putting themselves/families into bankruptcy. The US leads the developed world in preventable deaths from birth to old age -this is better?

Some one else says that universal care is not what Tommy Douglas envisioned when he started this off in Canada. Maybe, maybe not. BUT it is what the people of Canada have guided and pushed for for the the following decades.
Oh, by the way folks, the Vancouver Sun is reporting that the new "Urgent Care Clinic" has agreed to not bill the patient directly according to Health Minister Abbott however they couldn't get confirmation from said clinic.

George Abbott is either gutless, or he supports the clinic's opening and is feigning concern. Bit by bit our public healthcare system is being eroded under the provincial Liberals. The privateers are winning, and the Americanization of Canada is accelerating.

Abbott is just doing the pantomime - Gordon Campbell, as in everything else in this province - is pushing the buttons.

He's running a cult, not a democratic institution. Have you watched the inflation in the ranks of communications experts of late?

So..the way I understand the overall system , and the mini- private Health Care system that also currently exists, I'll cite a theoretical strategy.

Start a company... begin paying into WorkSafe(ex WCB) premiums...create a medical situation that one can " claim " is work - related,( which may actually help designate a medical condition which is in a rather gray area as to origin/pre-existing )...then access Health Care far faster ...(which is my understanding as to how " the system " currently works).

The problem with ideology is that it is not a cure for what ails us.
Solutions that roll with the times are.

Health Care and Education take up the lion's share of our tax dollars. The ideological solution is usually collect and spend more tax dollars. This compromises other tax dollar directions and directives.

People live longer, and there is a huge bubble of people coming forward, and many of them also having the means to pay for services, and reduce the line -ups. Medicare was created in a time when this was not the case. Things have since changed.

There is only one taxpayer, hence the solution is to EITHER (i) tax people MORE to make universal medical care more expensive individually ,..or (ii) the "softer-subtler" tax, which is to allow people to pay for their own services via a private option if they so chose. I see the latter as the best pragmatic solution to reduce line-ups which is THE overall objective in the most expeditous delivery of medical services.

As many are predicting, there will be less people in the future to pay the taxes to fund these ever-increasingly demanded( ie I wanted it yesterday !!!) medical services.

Something has got to give.
One can't get expect more and more blood out of ever fewer and fewer stones.

You obviously don't know much about the way the tax system works maestro...or how the banks, the corporations and the wealthy have manipulated it so they get most of the benefits and pay very little of the cost.

Maestro, how about the corporate world starts to pay more? In the US it is getting increasingly harder and harder to find a job that includes medical coverage. Corporations that are cross border employers have begun to use this(medical coverage) as financial reasoning on why to maintain their canadain operations open over their US ones. Statistically Canadians are healthier than our US counterparts, and this is directly linked to our healthcare system.

You've brought up an area that has urked me for a long time now the term "Free Medical" nothing frickin' free about it.

Then there is how we pay for it and that is ambigious taxation. This where I believe we should follow the European model and we as individuals pay a percentage of our income directly for medicare. In the top European countries(Medically speaking) it ranges from 14- 20 percent. what do you think about exploring these options?

Give up on maestro, Blonde Pitbull, he doesn't actually think at all.

You're probably right Alci, but hope runs enternal....

Hmmm.

Seems to remind me of one of those Li'l Abner cartoons whereby ad -infinitum BAND AIDS to an OLD Model seems to work the best in the minds of many....err ....I should say minds of " some " .

If a quasi Private level of care ALREADY exists ie WorkSafe clients...the barn door is already open and will not close. Preach all you want...dogma flattened by the pragmatism is not and never will be MSP covered.

Nothing is free, it's how the tax dollars are efficiently repatriated into services that benfit the clientele, ie all of us. If the current system is quantifiably NOT working to the benefit of the general public ...increased taxes put us on a slippery slope. Anyone rant on into ideology warfare, but this is HEALTH CARE and I ,personally speaking, don't enjoy seeing people suffer. Public Health Service or Private Health Service is still Health SERVICE. Remember your doctor is still a self -employed private contractor.

Isn't there an immunization one can get from straw man ideology that attempts to ignore current and continued failure of the status -quo? (Oh yeah aka be pro-active, tune out.... and yawn)

PS Remember: Try organic blueberries ALCi...those anti-oxidants etc. will cure whatever(?) ails YA.

Can't believe anything you post Maestro - that's the problem with folks who don't tell the truth.

Hmmm, seems he doesn't wanna talk to me,-was it something I said? Musta be a little too "pro active"....

He's busy trying to get his land out of the ALR - that's maestro's thing!

Oh he's one of those....

Times have changed for some!
More people than ever are too poor to consider using such a service!
Those who have the means may soon learn that one little illness cost them more than paying the taxes needed to keep the present system working!
Do the math: if every taxpayer actually paid what he should, there would be no problem!
But, an entire class of people exchange "favours" as a way of life!
another class manage to avoid retail prices! and a lot of people simply cheat on the taxes!
If government would work on those suckers of society, many problems would be solved!

No question alive.

And when the folks with the extra jingle in their jeans - from years of taxation boondoggles and easy credit rip-offs - pay their way into the lineup for scarce medical resources the line for the folks with holes in their pockets will get longer, not shorter.

We've been there before.
It was rotten and it didn't work.
These idiots Campbell is manipulating to do his will must know it too. Apart from a couple of Liberals who walked on him after 2001; Elaine Brenzinger and Paul Nettleton, the rest of the automatons in the cabinet might has well have big keys in their backs, they are so mechanical. Do you have any idea how many communications people Campbell has hired to spin the news?

Campbell has turned the liberal party and the Provincial Government into a cult and it's long past time someone snapped the zombies out of their waking sleep. Before the whole province suffers a night of the living dead.

I hope that the whole province never has to feel nights of the living dead but I can tell you that in the hospital I work in and in SMH where I've had the misfortune to have to take loved ones its almost every night...shite almost every day for that fact.

With Maestro I agree on one thing, for sure, I don't like to see people suffer either(my job is in the front line worker category); where we disagree is on whats causing the suffering. He(?) thinks its an faulty system; I see an under funded one in some crucial areas, causing a ripple effect in the rest. But he, like most here, just doesn't really want to help they just wanna bash each other, so....

Yesterdays News. Clinic opens and Abbott is alert.

Today everything has changed. Now the clinic isn't going to charge the patients directly. So what happened, for this change of direction. Nothing much. Those guys didn't put that sort of money up just hoping the government would buy into allowing them to charge directly. With the big change, now it seems they will be getting the money from the province, and all that because they had a meeting. BS. It was part of the plan all along. And the weird thing was the patient had to sign a statement they wouldn't tell the government what they paid or what they had done to themselves.If they showed up in an amulance they wouod be sent away. They were about to cherry pick customers. They said they would simply get people ready to go to the ER. seems to me the patients should simply go to the ER and the two faced government should light a fire under the Hospital authorities to put up the cash to keep the ER's running properly. The bit about patient files being on the computer is certainly not new. And of course the hospitals when asked will provide CD's with x rays, CAT scans and MRI's for free as their records and many doctors offices records are on line as well. They used to charge for the CD's but don't anymore.How do I know? well I do have a CD showing xrays, another for CAT and MRI scans. And copies of the radiologists reports and a few other ones as well.And a few copies of specialist reports as well. It's us they write stuff about so we get copies. I was between doctors so asked for and got all the stuff. And the clinic gives copies of blood work if one asks. These guys are doing nothing new. If George and Gordo funded the hospitals correctly there would be no need to go elsewhere.

Blonde:

No problem discussing...simply a LINE UP to use this PRIVATE SECTOR built device. LINE UP is shorter now

BLONDE PIT:

Before moving further, I though it might be appropriate that you be informed of the following:

Someone who posts as G WEST is simply a neo con who is on 24/7 call from the Fraser Institute in case of emergency. G WEST is also a (comedy)writer in their free time, and has Michael Richards as one of his clients, but is currently wondering why his last check bounced and why Mr. Richards is not returning calls. G WEST tends to use the word " RON " a lot which is coded language for his un-named associate "A" to buy certain stock. If G WEST writes "IAMC" it is coded language to sell the given stock.

This un-named associate Alciabides (or ALCi )is an ancient Greek whose longevity can be attributed to non organic foods and queue jumping throughout history. He still hasn't paid his bill to Dr. Kervorkian. ALCi often tries to sell themselves on E-Bay as a living antique.

These two often travel like a pack in cyber space. BE WARNED !!!!: If either or both are on THE TYEE on a Saturday night it usually means they are looking for dates...apparently G WEST prefers to go Dutch....and ALCi is allegedly a notorious cheap tipper...They tend to regale people with their tales of victory...don't worry...you can't get bored becuase its a 1 second speech when commercials are on.

G WEST and ALCi, as they traipse through cyber space, tend to chase their tails in their attempt to move forward. They , rumour has it, wish to contact a Mr. G. Campbell with a venture to harness this wasted energy and connect to the power grid.

If you find them harassing or annoying...it appears that if you say the magic word " sustainability " G WEST heads for the hills. With ALCi simply say "BOO" ! Or....Say ALR and ALCi tends to stomp like a troll.

Hence be careful when engaging in intelligent dialogue with these two...its the equivalent of getting stood up. They make us left of center types look R-E-A-L bad in their hypocrisy and self serving agenda while claiming to be one of us. Again.... be warned!!!

Thanks for your opinion on those who disagree with you, Maestro, just because you don't read my opinions here much lately doesn't mean I don't keep up on this site. So you want to explain the shot about "private sector"? If you have a line up at home for computer time maybe you should break out your mattress stash and buy the family another computer.Remember the capitolist system only works if you spend, spend and spend some more!

Blonde Pitbull;

Good:

Now we have established the degree of the open mind you have...it was a wee bit ambiguous.

Not sure re: your point ... "...you don't read my opinions lately ..." To be honest, its the first time I have ever read you post on a topic.

Remember, you thought I was avoiding you...let's NOW 100% clear up that "possible" ambiguity.

You seem to be easily influenced by others views prior to moving forward ie your quote to ALCi..." Oh,he's one of those ."

Please explain what "ONE OF THOSE" means .

ALCi and G West tend to troll topics and critique sans solutions....(though G WEST is becoming a bit more conservative, maybe avoiding association with ALCi)... there is a HUGE surplus of those types on the market, hence the actual value approaches zero.

PS Maybe I'll lay out my own pre-conceived notions...are ya up to it ?

Look me up in the archives ... they still have that here, right?
As for you being "one of those" I was interpreting his comment that you are in favour of trying to pull as much land out of the ALR for the great god of todays' society - money.

Yep...they still have the archives.

I've used it a few times...but tend not to bother other than follow a basic story/topic and NOT the posted comments.

Unfortunately , I see some TYEE types tend to dig up these old posts and then post them as so-called quasi-evidence against others, which is often taken out of context, and used as a quasi- Salem Witch trial, which I guess is OK if they have (i) the evidence and (ii) again in context.

There was real bad one on a TYEE topic a few weeks back and one of the posters involved I haven't seen post a comment since. I myself didn't agree with a lot of what they had previously posted on many topics but I had complimented them on their "intelligence" because they thought that I thought they were a " flake" THEIR words, not mine , which I then clarified to the contrary.

Thats' too bad...and some never quite get it...and especially when others "respond and react in kind ".

The TYEE should be a forum for us to discuss /debate / dialogue/enlighten....etc. etc. .... but its ending up as soap box rants of the same- old same - old...much like the non - cyber world.

ALR ? my comments and where I come from are also in the TYEE archives. I would politely submit that you would retract your "assumption" if you read them in the proper context. However, all-too-predictable ALCi will likely knee -jerk respond,.."yawn"... and soapbox rant some more..." Y-A-W-N "...which I both expect and encourage, it simply reduces his already near - zero credibility. Or... more pertinent to this topic, ALCi has "flatlined" as far as usefulness to this and many other TYEE topics and debates......time to " pull the plug " .

alive:

Please define whome these 'suckers of society' are in your mind.

As for me I see the top earners paying far more than the bottom into a 'progressive' tax system that then pays out those monies into a bloated bureaucracy that has nothing at all to do with the provision of the services demanded by the population.

More Federal government pink slips are needed (in reams).

Better yet, get the Federal government out of the business altogether! Confederation left the health and welfare systems to the Province's responsibility until the Canada Health Act got into muck everything up!

BLONDE PITBULL posted:

The difficulty in 'really helping' lies in getting past the Federal Government, as health is a Provincial responsibility, yet some of the funding and all of the demands complications are coming from the federal Canada Heath Act.

This is a nasty pickle, where the standard is set very high, yet the funding to achieve this standard is under the control of a 'lower level' of taxation and represents the ultimate 'downloading' since the cutting of federal funding - following the Cretien/Martin plan of Provinces taking care of thier own responsibilities.

The only real solution lies in either changing the level of responsibility for health from Provincial to Federal, or in getting the feds out of Health altogether, but since we are letting Ottawa collect so much (insane amounts in my opinion) in taxes then there will be no way for some Provinces (PEI comes to mind) to ever be able to afford anything even close to reasonable health care.

The entire health care debate is just another symptom of what is really the failure of Confederation, better to end the experiment sooner, while the costs will be small; compared to later when the cost may seem too much to bear...

Murdock:
OK, do you like the term "parasites" better?
If you read the post in question you may note that i did define !
I am talking about the scum who never pay retail because they have a network of friends who swap merchandize and services around to avoid paying taxes!
But you of course are completely unaware of any underground economy, right?
I agree that top-earners, meaning people who actually are employed and receiving a paycheque as compared to those who supposedly are "in business", often seem to pay a lot in taxes!
Then again the problem could be improved if cheaters were caught and punished.
I also agree that far too many managers sit on their fat asses and do nothing, in and out of government services

And then of course, there is the odd commenter around here who never likes to be called on his or her past pronouncements.

Not too big a surprise really. Such folks often prefer just sitting on the sidelines throwing stones because they like the sound of them splashing in the river.

I think you, blonde pitbull, know the type I'm referring to.

Yeah, I've "met" more than a few on here, Alci.
Maestro, if you can't be bothered to look me up then I won't you. I remember enough of the comments you've written...

ok alive,

so some of the 'parasites' you are mentioning are the MP's whom have access to the military facilities (that I have not heard of many in DND actually using, yet the NDHQ Medical Center in Ottawa is always well staffed)?

so you are referring as 'parasites' those whom have owned businesses, working in them, yet since they are the 'owner' they cannot use WCB? Nor are they allowed to purchase private health care, so if injured on the job, they are stuck?

these 'parasites' must be the union workers that have extended health benefits, like the UAW or CUPE?

All of these groups 'trade' their services in special status organizations and by-pass the normal line-up for health care services.

The cock-up in our 'system' is that we still are trumpeting it as the best model ever!

Blond Pitbull:

Not sure your poin"T".

FTR My past post re: yourself was in the context of a passing comment that I am not familiar with your posts, nothing more nor otherwise was implied.

I may check archives, I may not...the basic poin"T " was your pre-conceived view.

Given your responses you seem to willingly be assuaged and taken cues from certain TYEE types whose 1/2 assed glib comments = the same old tired fill-in-the-topic -blank (_______)rhetoric.

...OR am I simply talking to someone who has already alluded to...or dare I say confessed, to having a vested personal interest in the status -quo,and considers any/all options a threat to their current monopoly.

Let's call a spade a spade..if one is paid...you belong to a PUBLIC or PRIVATE corporation...let's cut this Public Service holier than thou label.

I am sure there are lots of UNION (and non-Union) parties who say, started out with nothing,...worked hard ,have lived a good life...but in their golden years their quality of life is compromised by their access to PUBLIC Health Care, and who would gladly pay for PRIVATE health care, and P-L-E-A-S-E don't tell me these types of situations don't exist.

People can and will go the the U.S. for gambling and medical services. They have repatriated gambling here...why not have the same re: medical services ?

Letting people suffer, if not also die, for the sake of old ideology, is pretty " sick ".

The idealogy here is stunning. In a perfect world? Absolutely. But then again, in a perfect world we would be equal in other respects.

Let's take the wealthy as an example. They live in better homes. Drive better cars. If they are accused of a crime, they get better representation, and are more likely to be exonerated (regardless of whether or not they actually committed said crime. The fact is, the wealthy get better things.

And if we are truly honest witrh ourselves, we will realize that they get better healthcare. It's just another service.

Welcome to the real world.

obuchmann
If these characters want to take their sorry asses to the US and pay their own freight for their so-called number 1 service - so be it. I won't tell them where to holiday either but our tax money shouldn't pay for their foolishness.
Letting the rich jump line for scare services in Canada makes the lot of the rest of us worse so it can't be allowed, period.

It's the price you pay to be a citizen of a decent country and not just a subscriber to a ponzi scheme.

Yep...

Real world...which one ?
Actually, I don't personally know of one person who has jumped the medicare line.

OUR tax money ??? hmm... so these people haven't ever paid a thin dime themselves in their entire lives...say 35 + years in the work force...stayed health by and large...and may one day be in need ? Also, many pay out of pocket for these services...what's with this OUR Money ?

Of course the fact 2 tier levels of medical services already exist ie Work Safe clients etc. is "ignored".

Interesting ideology in a democracy, usually we allow the individual to make their own decisions as they see fit ...except in this case...which involves one of the most important facets of their lives...their health.

Others feel it is their right to deny others options they may choose, and effectively put them on the idelogy altar. To support this ideology is the promotion of the bogus fear that Medicare will collapse, which is pure BS as the politicians would never do that as they know the political consequences if they even came near that non starter.

Pretty " sick " ideology ...worse than I thought.
Hopefully, no actually very likely, a minority.

Maestro, do you have a problem with stuff you've said here previously? Or is it with me remembering what you've said? I never commented on your opinions negatively or positively, just that I can remember some.
This public /private debate is really quite ...old,childish... I spent a decade in the private sector before I put the last 17+ years in my current place of employment. I saw just as many if not more lazy, unsuitable employees there as I have in the public side the exception is they usually got alot further because they could by butt kissing than by actually working for it.
As for having a vested interested in healthcare, yeah I do, so does/should everyone.
My point is that whether we stay universal, go fully private(US model) or do the European version we are going to pay more, lots more. Why shouldn't we try funding our system the same level the best of the europeans do? Or at the levels that the private insurers charge in the US before we go and dismantle what we have?

Blonde PitBull;

The debate evolves with all debate participants.

Please note I have not denigrated the Public Sector. I am also not talking about dismantling the Public System... I basically stated that in my last post...I can't ever see that ever happening, and much of that is for political reasons.

European models on many things are often brought into these types of debates. Those are "devil is in the details" types of discussions. One of those is that Canada is a huge country with a relatively small population.

Also, the system has its gatekeepers so as not to open the floodgates to clientele, perhaps the message is that the gatekeepers adjust their role.

What IS that "magic funding number" of (i)funding meets (ii) the bell curve of basic needs ? Are we close...or is it increasing beyond our capacity to fund it?

Again, the 2 Tier exists, ie Work Safe clients, so what then makes them different than you or me or anyone?

Finally , it has been mentioned in this Health Care discussion that the last 1-2 years of a given persons' life use up most ie 80-90% of the per person medicare funding. Given we live longer, how does this play into the big picture ?

My point is simply if Plan A is not working, have and allow a Plan B...or why wouldn't it be allowed? To me the answer to that is simply ideology and someones right to options and choices being surgically removed if not bypassed.

Oh, hon, I don't believe for a minute that there isn't a thousand devils the details and you are right Canada is a young, huge, country with needs that the europeans have mostly dealt with by virtue of age of their existance. And I don't concretely know any magical numbers for funding just that the gov't spends about $3000 a year that divided into average income of 30,000 is about 10% of said average income which is short by european standards a minimum of 4%. I think we can agree that minumum 4% on billions is alot and directed to the right areas could/would make a huge difference. I also think that canadians wouldn't be so resentful of paying this way instead of the way it is now - hand in wallet (as taxes) more while getting less.

What the heck does that mean maestro? You should read Tom Wolfe’s book ‘The Bonfire of the Vanities.’

It's not the 'debate' that is important.

It's the actual conditions on the ground. It’s clear that you're allergic to 'facts' and prefer some kind of esoteric 'dialogue' or dance of the dialectic and that indicates to me that you'd have been right at home in some of the Trotskyite bun-tosses I witnessed in my youth.

Stop trying to conduct. This is not your orchestra.

Such attitudes just play into Gordon's hands - just as he 'conducted' Abbott's handling of the current situation. All part of the 'evolving' debate.

Look ALCi

Let's just agree to DISagree...

Otherwise you are becoming a parody = stereotype of the left. You are becoming exactly what you accuse others of. So...we have establshed it is YOUR orchestra ?, not that it was ever mine.

Also re: FACTS? sorry, but your ad nauseum lack thereof cannot have, as a cheap substitute, " rhetoric = facts" in your own personal thesuarus.

I don't know of ANYONE that has accessed this so -called private system. Most can and will choose the Public System . This so-called private system is simply being used as pawn to foster some old ideology for myriad reasons. The system cannot stop people from the current 2 Tier(ie WorkSafe) system ....or accessing it elsewhere...so the ideology wins???...whooppee!!!!... versus at least the pragmatic repatriating of the funds and the expertise etc. back home in Canada. Work with the inevitable, not piss into the wind.

Blonde PitBull seemed to simply be asking for some clarification...and is also furthering the dialogue.

All political parties have made Health Care a very politicized issue...which is too bad. There likely is a solution in there on par with a pony somewhere the manure - filled barn, but all I see is the Chicken Little rants meets the Gov't bandaiding the supposed fixes.

Ideologues who would deny anyone "choice"(which is what this is all about)and especially in this type of issue really show their true colors.

Otherwise, Dr. Maestro says chill out and have some more organic blueberries.

So should I withold my MSP payment in order to save some money for future private health care?

To the nurse that says no one is refused emergency care in the states-what happens when the bill come due? Sure the person is alive but now browk or bankrupt!

Moodyguy said earlier:

"Actually it tends not to reduce wait times. Rather what happens is that it changed the conditions of resource allocation from one based on need to one based on ability to pay. To make my point, if a person will pay a large amount to get a low priority procedure done then potentially the person who has the skill will move toward this treatment instead of dealing with something really urgent in the public system. This is particularly true if the same person works in both the poublic and private system. The public system provides a certain income (wage or salary for most professionals, guarantted fee for service for physicians) and therefore the service providers can essentially push up their services in the private sector which is essentally gravy for them."

I agree completely with his points. If a public hospital is only being used 16 hours a day, why not have the 'gravy' seeking doctor schedule more public service hours at the available public facility (overtime as in the urgency clinic)?

Soon public healthcare will still exist, but only from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., all other times the public will have to take their cash, debit card or credit card to visit the heavily staffed by gravy seekers urgency clinics and well being centres (or whatever name they call it to avoid contradicting the Canada Health Act!).

I wonder, will the urgency clinic accept recyclable containers as payment?!

Uhhh, what was I asking clarification of Maestro?

Hey, whats with the organic blueberry dissin'? I used to live on a piece of property in Richmond with a large untended field of blueberry bushes they would I believe qualify as organic and they were delicious both fresh off the bush or as jams/jellies/frozen all year long .Now its a parking lot - this is an improvement? Not in my eyes....

The gloodgstes have opened! It's now only a matter of time:
http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/RenAissance/Hospital/Surgery.html

er, "glood" is actually "flood"....(blush)

Blonde PitBull:

Clarification comment was more aimed at ALCi's comment (though I may have worded it better in hindsight).

The Blueberry comment is a side reference to another TYEE Topic post....otherwise not much bad one can say about blueberries.

maestro:
When you post something interesting or factual (remember that line about an 'actual' case) in the future - and I won't be holding my breath obviously - I'll respond to that. Thus far you've been a big disappointment as a conductor and I'm pretty tired of the tune you're playing.

A dud as a 'blogger', a flop as a standup comedian and a failure as a musician. Oh, and as Stump remarked, a mess as a wordsmith.

Maybe it's time for a new gig altogether...perhaps as a Richmond real estate agent or a log-house builder.

ALCi:

Thanks for the endorsement !

I guess I must be onto something if I got ya and some of yer posse' into hissy fit mode.

Re: "the case" I 'd rather you simply call me a liar, actually, I will spell it out for you "L" "I" "A" "R"...so I and others can see it...then when the type is ripe I can, perhaps, post "the case" and perhaps dig up your "LIAR" quote in the archives, put the two together, and THEN we can discuss credibility.

I mean really what benefit is there to post it , especially to you ? I read these TYEE topics and the comments, and as far as I am concerned many simply end up as ideological ranters trying to get their 15 minutes of fame. It often seems like preaching to the converted, some of who are still trying to convince themselves. Yeah, some have good research skills, dig up nice links, etc. etc. but then ???

" The case " has really got your knickers in a knot...eh ALCi ?

That's unfortunate.

One thing you have to realize, ALCi, that even TYEE unanimity ,or majority,either way means squat, its the "powers that be" that make the decisions when the facts and the errors of their ways are pointed out. That's where this is at.

However, the majority of TYEE commentators , if added up, tend to have a political slant in a certain direction, which is in contrast to that which exists at the more relevant Election day polls. The rather distinct TYEE posse' tends to gang up on views of certain others in kneejerk fashion...man, how many times have I seen THAT and WHO and what they ad- nauseum represent ? In the real world we also know where they hang out and with who, etc.

I gave you enough clues,ALCi, obviously you haven't tried, or you are simply playing "some other game". Unless you do a major epiphany(highly doubtful) I already know what you'd say. It would have been interesting to discuss, but after about 6 months on the TYEE, one gets handle on the level of discussion and depth of debate via the pre-existing "programming" amongst and within many .

So ALCi what is YOUR agenda???... all you've shown me is a basic pattern of denial and party -line re-barf . Why give a denial addict another fix, that wouldn't be very kosher of me would it?Nor would another soap box re-barf opportunity.

Know when to hold them and know when to fold them ALCi , and its pretty clear I'm holding them , but thee and thou comrades have folded. Your last post(above ) pretty much lays out " all -you- need -to -know -about -ALCi " ...a foot stompin' pseudo -intellectual troll who thinks he should be paid the price of a hat when he shites on others heads...not to mention cyber stalkin.

PS Vurry Sowrry regardink my badz bloggink, commadee, muzak, wurdzmyth skillz. (I ussualee findink peeplz who critiques dat r' uzuallee losink and "LEFT" to graspink in desp'r'ayshun )

Dr. Maestro sez Go seek a private clinic to cure what ails you.

Otherwise..water off a ducks back dude, (and I think even you, Comrade ALCi , know that by now).

Understand that there are people in the US who go bankrupt or "browk" over medical bills. Understand this as well. The people in the US who suffer such a fate, or those who can afford healthcare, and choose not to buy it. For those that will say, "between the mortgage and the car payment, I can't afford healthcare insurance", I say get your priorities straight. Buy a smaller home, or a cheaper car. You insure that car don't you? Why would you not put a greater priority on your health, and the health of your family?

If anybody thinks that Abbott and Campbell werent aware of this Clinic from the get go, they might be interested in some swampland I have for sale. Let's face it, most intelligent people feel that the "Conversation" on Health Care has been skewed toward privatization from the get go. The government knows this sentiment exists. What to do? How about this:
Feign surprise about the clinic a week or so before it opens. Generate debate in the media about health care privatization which is skewed (surprise, surprise) toward privatization (have you read the editorials in the Pravduh and CanWest Goebbels lately?). Ride in on a white horse and champion public health by making the False Creek Clinic comply to the public health care model, creating a red herring and making the (uninformed) public beleive you actually care about defending public health care. When the (intentionally) skewed results of the "Conversation" point towards privatization, Campbell and Abbott offload responsibility for the decision to the public, akin to the way they offload responsibility and fiscal matters on to municipalities, school boards, etc. They can say, "It wasn't our decision, gee, we were even concerned about False Creek Urgent Care Centre, remember"?

I don't know whats sadder, the fact that I think/ feel this scenario is a possibility or the fact that given this government, it IS a possibility. The saddest thing of all is that Campbell, et. al. think the general public are stupid. For those that are borderline, the government has the aid of the media in this city. What a riot!

I wonder under what statute either the City of Vancouver or the Province of BC could have closed this facility - as so many leftie posters yearn for - and who would have excercised the warrant. I wish they had because it would have made a great law suit, being shut down by the police before any law had been broken.

I guess they could change it into a pet hospital, after all they're OK, they charge the competitive rate. Can't really expect Rover & Kitty to understand drafty corridors and six month wait times - nor socialist ideology.

I gues it's all OK now. Mark Godley says they're OK to do WCB jobs. So the unions will be happy. No wait times for the privileged.

Yesterday I had lunch with an interesting young woman who here on a work permit from Australia. She couldn't understand that here she can't pay out of her pocket for immediate health care. She likes the system in Australia that allows her to do this. When she's working she needs quick health care treatment so she can get back to work immediately. Her opinion is that there are more doctors and nurses working in Australia since the two-tiered system has encouraged more workers in the field. Coming to Canada she had to buy $2,000 of health insurance. That was expensive, particularly since she and her boyfriend are on a tight budget while they look for work. They are living in an East Vancouver suite that costs them $360.00 per month.

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=bc_home&articleID=2470116

"We've had no discussions on their business model," he said. "Their business model is an issue for the clinic, not for me and not for the ministry."

The ministry and the clinic have been meeting to decide which procedures will be considered basic and which are additional.

realisticman,
What exactly is your point? You want a visitor who's already paid $2G for coverage while she's here to also pay out of her pocket at a time when she can't afford more than $360/mo for a suite?

Is she living under someone else's bed?

I can't imagine anyone being so stupid as to make the remarks you've attributed to her.

Your observations about accessible care for minor complaints (the kind of thing you go back to work after) is nonsense.

G West, please read my post, you are jumping to the wrong conclusion! I never suggested that I want her to pay for anything. What I wrote, and what she said to me, is that she likes the systsem in Australia and is amazed that she cannot do the same here if she needs to;

And, West, these are NOT my observations, these are hers. An Australian woman in her 20's of modest means that is quite happy with the users of health-care services partially paying, as exists in her country.

The whole point is quick access to a doctor without taking many hours out of her working day. If the problem necessitates she wants to be able to go to a fast-track healthcare facility. and if that means paying a little then that's OK with her. She doesn't want to go to her family doctor, then obtain a referral, then wait for an appointment, etc. She just want's it ASAP.

She also considers this system relieving the state system thereby speeding up care for all.

Got it?