Erasing emails

"A former senior deputy minister to the premier who admits publicly that when it comes to his own emails: "I delete the stuff all the time as fast as I can."

I was always under the impression that as long as a computer's hard drive was intact it didn't really matter whether you erased something or not. Can't the average hacker access all those "lost" emails?

@orchardist

I am not sure whether or not that is the case, but perhaps that is what the defence should ask for, an independent assessment of whether or not the emails are retrievable, and an independent archivist to document all current emails for examination of possible collusion...

I mean it would seem that if instantly, now - today at this moment - all deletions were frozen and an independent investigator was allowed to search for probable evidence through a phrase search - I would imagine the truth would be known...

because if there was a conspiracy to delete those emails, I would be willing to bet that the conspirators, at this moment have compromising evidence on their machines.

Of course such an investigation will likely not happen, and will for sure not happen instantly. We live in a place where the police investigate themselves, and men like Ian Bush are shot in the back of the head because of 'self-defence'.

May I remind folks of Nathan Cullen's comments about the RCMP:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060514/layton_mp_060514?s_name=Autos&no_ads=

He was made to apologize because the optics of questioning the cops were not seen to have political value by the federal ndp...

Remember what the rcmp said before the taser video was released? Yeah, I am sure the officer shot Ian Bush in the back of the head because of self defence.

I am also sure that the police are doing everything in their power to expose the corruption of the B.C. Liberals.

;)

In fairyland of course. Where the finance minister sprinkles fairy dust, rather than snorting it.

"Last week Campbell broke

"Last week Campbell broke from his usual pattern of not commenting on the corruption charges case against former ministerial aides David Basi and Bob Virk and former communications aide Aneal Basi to comment on the disclosure that emails from 2001 to 2005 between cabinet ministers, MLAs and staff regarding B.C. Rail had either been erased or just disappeared."

"I will not comment, it's before the courts." Unless that is, to save his political ass.

Wake up BC this guy is giving it to you big time. It's time to demand a public enquiry into all the dealings of this government.

In my 53 years as a BC

In my 53 years as a BC voter, this definitely is the most corrupt government, out to sell off the province to foreign buyers, at any price, where the NAFTA and WTO rules prevent any reclaims by future governments. In short, permanent indebtedness and screw.

This is not surprising, and has been obvious since the first week Campbell took over and started on his wrecking campaign, giving away incredible benefits to the multinational corporate mafia, while cutting back services to the public.

The most incomprehensible part is that they can not only get away with the mass destruction of the province and the lives of millions, but keep on getting voted back into power by the suckers who have the most to lose.

Which shows that human ignorance and gullibility have no limits.

Ed Deak.

PAB(lum)

should be mentioned as well. 230 + staff, paid for by you and I, to the tune of $29 million a year, to massage the messaging - including phoning in to radio talk shows. Obama has 45 staff doing the same thing at the White House. And no one in the MSM blinks at this.

Of course

the interesting part is all those quiestions that could not be answered because 'the matter was before the courts', which clearly shows that people inside the governemtn were quite aware of which 'matters' were being dealt with in court. No accidental erasing there...

Also recommended ...

The key to the BC Rail sale lies in Premier Gordon Campbells beginnings in real estate and land development.

Posted on June 29, 2009 by Laila
One must never forget that first and foremost, Gordon Campbell is a real estate man – his past and beginnings were as a developer, and at no time when dealing with him and his administration should that be forgotten.

Not when it comes to forest land deals the province had been criticized for ( Weyerhaeuser /Brookfield Asset Management deals) , nor when it comes to highway construction and road work deals( South Fraser Perimeter Road and Sea to Sky) . But especially not if one begins mulling about the ramifications of the $1.00 transfer of land clause written into the dubious privatization of BC Rail, which is about to occur on or before July 15th 2009 ...

The full column is here: http://lailayuile.wordpress.com/

My Two Cents

I firmly believe this is the year the "chickens come to roost" on a number of files. There are many examples of the current Liberals being less than forthright with facts when controversy or differences of opinion on their pet projects surface. It is my opinion that we will see at least three areas where voters have been significantly misled. They are:
1. BC Rail and its sale.
2. Fish farms.
3. River power projects.

I have an IDEA!!

why don't Canadians wean themselves off of comparing every freaking scandal to AMERICAN POLITICS?

are we that stupid & incapable of political debate without kneejerk comparisons to "whaddevah"-Gate?
really?

come on, show some originality.

Here's another thought:

if Jack Layton hadn't jumped on board to crucify the federal Liberals THE CONSERVATIVE BUSH-LITE NEOCON HARPER WOULDN'T BE IN OFFICE.

beware for what you wish!

Maybe it should be discussed that a bit of Liberal corruption should be prevented & punished...

but if you actually think the CONSERVATIVES will do you better, you're on crack.

Can the Green Party or NDP help us? I'd LOVE to see the NDP or Green Party in a position of power. Hell yeah! but the fact remains that if you show a small-L liberal Canadian a choice between NeoCons & NeoLiberals... we remain fucked.

... the tragedy that we're stuck between 2 useless corporatized parties

Be very careful for what you complain about when you don't offer any alternatives but the Uglier Devil You Know.

The mass-media has been

The mass-media has been covering up for Gordon Campbell since day 1 when he was the mayor of Vancouver. When Vander Zalm was playing the buffoon and giving away the Expo lands Campbell was doing the same thing with the City of Vancouver property. Amazing wasn't it that nothing was said by the Vancouver establishment but sure didn't hesitate in going after the Zalm. It wouldn't take much to figure who's pushing Campbell's buttons; just check out Peter Brown. Yes that's right, the very same bloke who use to push the Socred buttons and he's a part of the reason why the Vancouver Stock Exchange is no more.

The political difference between Basi-virk and Watergate

The political difference is that during Watergate, the legislature was controlled by the other party. They put together hearings, chaired by the largely forgotten but calmly heroic Southern politician, Sam Ervin. The hearings were relentless and made for TV. They came up with new shocks weekly.

How I wish we had hearings like that here! As it is, the Liberals have an excellent chance of burying the whole thing. Our watchdog press is owned by the Liberals, and TV news is a wasteland. So yes, they'll bury it, just you watch.

offended's point

ThisCanadian, 2 hours ago, said:
"why don't Canadians wean themselves off of comparing every freaking scandal to AMERICAN POLITICS?"

I submit:

Offended's point about the US government equivalent to BC government's PAB is a very valid one.

Bill Tieleman's comparing this Gordon Campbel/BC Rail/deleted emails scandal to Watergate is very valid.

Though both (offended's and Tieleman's) make comparisons to the US, the comparisons are valid. Canadians often maintain a holier than though attitude toward Americans and their politicians.

Offended has a perfect right to be offended when one considers BC has 1/60th of the US polulation yet it employs more than 5 times as many PAB-type stafe to monitor and manipulate public opinion. On a percapita basis, that works out to 300 times more PAB-type staff than Obama. When one considers that CTV, CBC, and Global TV seem to be supportive as are all of the CanWest newspapers, the average citizen has no hope of getting the truth.

Tieleman comparing the erasing of but 18 minutes of tape in Nixon's office with 4 years worth of the BC government emails is also quite valid. This action shows that the BC Liberals are many times more secretive than the Richard - "I am not a crook" - Nixon government was. It had to take a dilligent effort and agreement between several higher ups in the BC Liberal Party to make this happen. Someone, (if not several people) had to be told to do it. It is not the sort of thing a teckie would take on his own to do. Does not this government use laptops as well? were the hard-drives on the laptops sanitized as well? If this wasn't done with his permission, and he is innocent, why isn't Campbell demanding the head of the person who erased his emails without his permission? Isn't he famous for micromanaging everything? I have always heard that nobody does anything without going through either Campbell or Dauphinee. Certainly they would be up to speed on this. Is it not a sin to delete the word of the almighty Lord Campbell?

The Problem is Endemic

To me this remains a marginally interesting but not exceptional story. I would like to know more about the alleded loss of these emails.

A precedent everyone should know about is the Carrier Lumber Case, which the government lost in a scathing Supreme Court judgment in July 1999. In February 2001 they abandoned the appeal just before it was to be heard. A CBC article, "Government drops Carrier Lumber appeal", suggested that the BC public might be on the hook for as much as $150M.

In the case I started working on years ago there's a collection of documents dating back to 1992 that I want to see. In 2007 the BC Supreme Court denied me discovery by granting the A.G. its motion for dismissal on summary judgment (claiming among other absurdities that the defendants all enjoyed absolute immunity).

I then sought access via the FOI process, which I anticipated would also ultimately be frustrated. After sitting on the case for well over a year the OIPC finally committed to conduct an inquiry. Nominally this was to commence on June 12, but nothing has happened so far. However, the A.G.'s substantial submission arguing against access (on the basis of solicitor client privilege) has revealed a great deal. Now I know that the documents were retained and that there is a very substantial collection that has been inventoried in response to my FOI request.

Also, the A.G.'s submission is based on an assertion that is patently unreasonable - an artfully constructed, deliberate lie. I said so in my reply submission of June 10, and the following day the A.G. sent the OIPC a letter "vigorously" protesting that I had defamed a "distinguished" lawyer and demanding that my allegations be struck from the record.

This FOI inquiry is litigation, just as much as a process before the courts. It will (sooner or later) go ahead and the result will be on the public record. We may then end up back in court. In my view this already warrants a criminal proceeding, but I'd be satisfied with an impartially conducted civil trial - a virtual impossibility in this province, in my view.

I applaud "This Canadian"

Interesting. When I read the comment (quote):

why don't Canadians wean themselves off of comparing every freaking scandal to AMERICAN POLITICS? (end of quote)

I was thinking of a wider context, and something within me shouted "Yes! Yes!!" Because time after time after time in everyday Canadian life, it seems that my beloved countrymen can't draw a Canadian analogy ... they seem most often to reach for a U.S. personality.

Like when Canadians call for the impeachment of Campbell. Huh?

Or when they demand that the Senate take charge of the BC Rail affair. Huh?

The U.S. context renders the thoughts meaningless.

And besides, one of the best comparisons to the Basi Virk affair is the Robert Sommers affair is the one that almost took down the W.A.C. Bennett government right here in B.C. WAC holds the gold medal in stonewalling before he (after 5 years) gave in and allowed the wheels of justice to chew up Sommers. Tossed ol' Sommers aside like a stinky old tennis shoe.

I think this is the kind of thing "This Canadian" was referring to and I say "Right on" especially because tomorrow is Canada Day. You know: Canada Day. The Firsta July. Our day.

My thanks to This Canadian.

BC Rail Day - July 14, 2009

ChrisB,

The Carrier Lumber v. Prov. of BC impasse is well worth knowing about ... it's the reality of stewardship of resources and where the human bureaucracies can't seem to fit.

But of course, they can ... be managed ... the basis of the problem being that for some reason British Columbians aren't well informed or motivated to follow our own social history.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a marginally interesting but not exceptional story" ... the missing e.mails? or the loss of a major railway?

Sure wish you'd lend a hand with the missing railway, as in seeking the injunction needed to suspend all further sales, deals, or giveaways triggered by the 5th anniversary of the BCRail Agreement until we know what's involved ... is it really a king's ransom in prime lands to be given away for one lousy dollar?. Surely it's an outrage that the people of B.C. don't know, because we still haven't seen the agreement. The list of lands is over at my place.

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

Seems the Judge had a few

Seems the Judge had a few choice words in court today about Gordo and freinds emails. Go check Tieleman's blog to get the story

Why Surprise?

Really. "The System" is just looking after one of its own more important "functionaries".

I mean, it's disgusting, of course. But a surprise?

Not in the least.

Depending upon events, they may be forced to deal with him in the end, for afterall, it is the interests of the whole ruling class that are primary, as opposed to a however valued functionary, which is really all Campbell is in the greater class scheme of things. (As they were finally forced by events in the long running ponzi scheme of Bernard Madoff, in the collapse mode of the US financial system.) It is clear though, to any "objective" watchers of events around the entire Basi-Virk affair, that "the system", which has to include ownership of the Sun for example, "in my view" of their coverage, or lack thereof until they are finally dragged to it with little choice, has their heels dug in, in serious defence/resistance mode.

When "the people" somnambulate and allow the foxes to guard the hen house, they should not be surprised to discover their chickens missing.

And here the foxes are fair grinning back at us with fluffy white down feathers stuck to their teeth.

"C'mon in, dear sweet dahlin's, and let us rub your back."

sun finally prints an article

but it is not easy to find. Futher, they did not mention the premier in the headline. CanWest is still dragging its heals on this and every story that is trufully negative about Campbell and his government.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Basi+Virk+Judge+orders+mails+MLAs+disclosed+defence/1747984/story.html

@Orchidist

>>I was always under the impression that as long as a computer's hard drive was intact it didn't really matter whether you erased something or not. Can't the average hacker access all those "lost" emails?

It depends on the available memory. If the memory is being continually filled and deleted then files are being overwritten. Original files no longer remain as new data has replaced them.

I'm not surprised by the loss of these emails at all. It may be up to users to determine which emails should be archived. Why would such a policy exist? Perhaps because the thousands of spam emails the government receives (just like the rest of us) would be a waste of resources to archive. And human users are still the best ones to determine what's spam and what isn't. Data warehousing is tricky business.

...

"Why would such a policy exist? "

It's obvious why, because government does business through email and we have a right to know what kinds of business they're up to. You may as well ask, "why take minutes during a meeting?"

"Perhaps because the thousands of spam emails the government receives (just like the rest of us) would be a waste of resources to archive."

Why would spam have to be archived? Those of us who work with email deal with spam all the time. There's nothing difficult about filling spam into the trash. As you say, yourself, "... human users are still the best ones to determine what's spam and what isn't."

Most spam is likely filtered out anyhow and it definitely does not need to be archived.

Data warehousing tricky - not the reason

Trent,

If you are a teckie, you know that what I say is true. Data warehousing and backing-up is not "tricky business". Intra-governmental emails and emails dealing with BC resources/assets belong to the shareholders - the people of BC. Yes, files that have been overwitten a number of time often become unreadable, but the person deleting the files had to delete them on purpose. A whole government's worth of files for four years do not disappear without a concerted effort to make it so. To lose everything, it had to have been done under someone's orders. A government computer system has built in redundancy, so that things can keep moving somoothly ahead if some part of a system crashes. I have many teckie friends with whom I work and correspond. They, to the last man and woman, say the same thing I just said.

I have been filtering spam and backing up my emails for 17 years. I rarely get any spam. I am on my 9th CPU chip and my 12th hard-drive on my personal home computer. I have some emails that I have saved for 17 years. In the last decade, data storage has become faster, faster, easier to deal with and much more inexpensive.

Your writing reminds me of the many PAB writers I have heard/read. They try to sound sincere and intelligent while carefully working to create a little doubt. It never works with me anymore. I have heard it too much. The now-departed Luke Skywalker employed those techniques here, perhaps you know him? He went out in a fit of rage - he finally cracked under the pressure of trying to support the lies and malfeasance of the Campbell government.

Convenient Deceptions

"Your writing reminds me of the many PAB writers I have heard/read. They try to sound sincere and intelligent while carefully working to create a little doubt. It never works with me anymore. I have heard it too much."

You can't keep fooling all of the people all of the time with the same story, it was said in a fine old movie called The Flim Flam Man, "So you just have to keep doing it differently."

Now, the human errors of past excuse, which computers, we were told in the day, were going to end, have become the new excuse themselves. Convenient deceptions get created ever anew as well. It's all part of the same spin creator's craft.

Which only works so long as folks are more given to distraction by Michael Jackson/ Farah Fawcett kind of "bright shiny bauble" events-, indicative of a childlike quality that continues to exist in the species.

We really need to know hogwash when we hear it though.

Policy is irrelevant

These files were identified as evidence in a corruption and money laundering case before the courts by being sought in disclosure by the defence and by Justice Bennett by hearing arguments and ordering disclosure in a very sweeping and inclusive way. There is absolutely no doubt this was known to be evidence.

The deletion of a block of files requires that somebody select the files to be deleted, and somebody push the button. Those people are guilty of obstruction of justice and contempt of court, and should be so charged, along with whoever ordered them to do that.

Take any one of those people into custody and charge and you will automatically have the links to the others, and through them to whoever they are acting for, the whole chain of conspiracy.

This of course would require a police officer or justice to do, and they only will if they really want this crime exposed and properly dealt with.

So that sort of leaves us all waiting and wondering what will happen. The destruction of evidence is an unequivocal crime, clear indication of guilty knowledge by whoever caused it. So now it all depends on whether there are any such police officers or justices left in our fair province.

If charges are laid, then we still have some hope. If not, then that tells us all a whole other story, doesn't it?

I feel little optimism

We Canadians like to beat up on ourselves for our complacency in the face of political and corporate corruption. But where, I wonder, is there a population anywhere in the Western world today that is any different than us?

Or posing it differently, where is there a government willing to oppose the Corporate corruption of our economic and political freedoms?

AFAIK the only Western country which in recent years hasn't seen a continuous decline in voter turnout is Australia, where voting is now mandatory.

Clearly, our Democracies are in peril, for the very basis of Democracy rests upon the visible proof, as seen in the vote, that government represents the will of the people.

IMO, voter apathy is not the result of public laziness. Rather, it is derived from the voter's correct observation that the politicians offer no clear choices - "They're all the same" - and that even even should they offer choices, they are just as likely to do the opposite, anyway - Campbell being a prime example, as would be Harper if given a majority.

It is too sad to watch the non-peformance of the NDP, whose strategists would be far happier if they could only boot those damn Socialists out of the Party.

"if they could only boot

"if they could only boot those damn Socialists out of the Party."

What`s the big issues with Socialists?

chuckstraight

chuckstraight,
Judging from his previous words in the posting and by his previous postings in at The Tyee, ME2's remark was intended to be facetious - ironic humour intended. After all, if the left leaners were booted out of the NDP, BC would have nearly no chioce at all. Perhaps the NDP would be a little less secretive and better with the books and not so inclined to spend most of our money outside of the province, but by being right-winged, they would be for big business.

As the party sits now, it is a fallacy to believe the NDP is pro-union. They just have better skills at negotiating with unions and they support a few of the things that unions support - like an increase in minimum wage, and not tearing up legal contracts.

July 14, 2009 is too late

Word gets around, the big deals are understood, and gradually people are steamed.

There was a stunning presentation of Nixon and Campbell in the June 29 online edition of Salt Spring News.

Today's edition of Island Tides has something we'll probably never see in a CanWest newspaper:

Click here to view and download the latest edition of Island Tides newspaper (4.8 MB pdf):

http://www.islandtides.com/Assets/IslandTides.pdf

and open to Page 4: "Editorial: full disclosure". They are endorsing the campaign to seek an injunction stopping any further benefits to CN rolling out of the secret BC Rail-CN deal on its 5th anniversary (July 14, 2009). The injunction will ask: show us the deal. stop the theft, let the people decide.

"But where, I wonder, is

"But where, I wonder, is there a population anywhere in the Western world today that is any different than us? "

Nowhere of course, my friend. Yoy are absolutely right, really. "The West", at least its political and socio-economic system, along its breadth and length, really is in decline. And we are caught in that "in between", neither fish nor fowl kind of place, where everyone for as long as they can, like girls in the song, "Just wanna have fun."

"IMO, voter apathy is not the result of public laziness. Rather, it is derived from the voter's correct observation that the politicians offer no clear choices - "They're all the same" - and that even even should they offer choices, they are just as likely to do the opposite, anyway..."

With which you may have just offered the fundamental answer to the issue, and an explanation for the near, or better than 40% of the population that doesn't even bother to vote. And really, "The Apathetics" are right, fundamentally, for now. We are all waiting, of choice or not, for that "critical mass" place where the poop really hits the fan, and everyone has to move or get covered.

And you know that we are going to get there. It's just a matter of "when", not "if".

We are all just hanging around outside the hospice window, on a kind of death watch for "The System".

BC Mary

Regarding the Carrier Lumber case, everyone in B.C. would benefit from reading “Politics and the Rule of Law”, that was written by a senior government lawyer. After I referred to this document in court in June 2007 it disappeared from the web site where it had been publicly accessible for years. The government changed the URL and hid it behind a firewall. It took some persistence on my part to reverse that act of paranoia.

Perhaps the BCRailgate case will ultimately prove to be a significant one, but I note that while there seems to be a substantial team trying to ensure that outcome, it may yet come to nothing. I also note that the public is not very interested, but that observation, unfortunately, applies to all of the increasingly expensive litigation involving the government (and not just in this province).

chuckstraiight

"if they could only boot those damn Socialists out of the Party."

The problem - as I see it anyway - is that the voter is denied a clearly Letist Party to vote for. I ascribe this situation to NDP stategists groping so hard to find a middle gound attractive to the voter, that while they are forced by Party tradition to acknowledge the Party's Socialist roots, they cannot come right out and shout from the rooftops that "We are Socialists".

That is because the Neocons have succesfully branded Socialists as "crypto-Communists" and have spent hundreds of millions propagandising that notion in the US and Canada ever since the Fifties.

The last time I've heard a prominent NDP politician proudly and consistently proclaim that he was a Socialist was Dave Barret way back in the early 70s. But we know what the unions did to HIM, don't we?

Even so, we know that the Social Safety Net which Harper is trying to dismantle is Socialism - which is why he hates it. But we also know that the majority of Canadians treasure it. So why didn't Layton make that the key plank in his platform?

We also know that the majority of people in BC have treasured BC Ferries, BC Hydro, BC Rail, ICBC, BC Medical, our public forests, along with public ownership of our highways and its infastructure. We know that these are all under attack by Campbell, and we can prove with hard figures that his doing so is costing us money - not saving it.

These publicly owned assets and services are key Socialistic measures, so why wasn't Carol and her team making it plain and loudly clear that the people who are destroying them ascribe to the same type of fiscal management that has brought about the financial ruin of the present "meltdown".

What I'm trying to say, chuck, is that if the NDP keeps trying to squeeze into the middle ground the Liberals have temporarily vacated in seeking to undercut the Conservatives, we're going nowhere.

In Canada, just as in all the other Western countries, (except the US), modern Socialism is the ONLY alenative to "The New World Order". There is NO "Third Way."

We can either reclaim our pride in being Socialists, or stop wasting our time playing games.